Comments on: Rumor: Full Info on m515 and m130

Can anyone back this up? It sounds odd that they would be in Canada first.

I saw a blank spot on the display case at my local Future Shop for these new models, and the employee said they've received a shipment, but aren't allowed to sell it yet.

They said they may put them on display early, depending on what the manager says.

in Montreal they already are selling them at one place, "Center HiFi" and the guy at Compusmart said they'd put them out over the weekend...It's like they just don't even care about the release date... All the places i've gone to and asked, Compusmart, Future Shop, Buerau En Gros, all said they have them in the stockroom, but won't start selling till the weekend, they said the release date is March 4...

How grainy did the screen look? I assume that because its brighter but still low res that the screen looked really grainy like a Prism.

Other than they are both color screens, the Prism's and the m505's have nothing in common. They aren't at all the same type. Your asumption is incorrect.

No, they will not release a m5XX form ARM palm for a long time. The first generation of ARM Palms will be like the first generation color devices (IIIC and Prism) big and bulky. We won't see slim ARM devices until NEXT fall (2003) if we are lucky.

Fascinating, bsquare, how you know details on Palm's yet-to-be-created devices...

Nope, just speculating. I guess once you spend each year thinking that this will be the year that Palm will surprise you with THE killer hand-held, just to be let down, you pretty much start to aim low.

Hard to believe... from what I have heard the TI ARM processor is no larger than the dragonballs and uses the same or less battery energy... SO the only thing making this bigger is the 320x320 screen but then again the T615 is almost as thin as the m505/15 now so why couldn't they produce smaller units?

It seems clear Palm has adopted the Palm V form factor as its defining high end model (otherwise they would not be able to use the size against the constant lack of features compared to Pocket PC etc.) and will always keep that size or smaller in the future...

bsquare if you know something please share...

Motorola was showing off at PalmSource how small a handheld could be and run OS 5 on one of their chips. They were really really small.

> what exactly is the technology powering the amazing T615's screen and how does it work?

...the amazing T615's screen? Who are you? Is this a real question? Who pays you?

This is the way I understand it: The T6x series uses transflective - or TFT - screens. That means that the screen backing is translucent, allowing it to be lit from the back ala IIIc or from the side/front ala m505/515, or both. TFTs are nothing amazing - they've been around for a long time, just not on Palm OS handhelds.

In fact, just like many desktop CPUs they keep incorporating more functions on the chip as they get faster, and use less power. The TI and Dragonballs include support for SD/MMC slots for example so a separate chip is not needed for that in/out.

I think Palm will keep their V form factor. It's gonna be a great year. And I hope they can use a screen as fine as the T615Cs.

-Timothy Rapson-

>> what exactly is the technology powering the amazing
>> T615's screen and how does it work?
>
> ...the amazing T615's screen? Who are you? Is this a real
> question? Who pays you?

- I am a long time Palm user from back in 1996 when the Pilot 5000 and still am with my m505. For kicks I bought my wife a T615 and I don't care what anyone says the screen is "amazing" just like I said compared to any other PDA screen with a PalmOS on it I have ever seen. Is that going to make me give up my m505... no, but I will expect my next Palm this fall with an ARM processor to have a screen similar in quality. Can't someone ever say ANYTHING good about something other than a PDA made by Palm hardware? Sheeesh!

Dave

"- I am a long time Palm user from back in 1996 when the Pilot 5000 and still am with my m505. For kicks I bought my wife a T615 and I don't care what anyone says the screen is "amazing" just like I said compared to any other PDA screen with a PalmOS on it I have ever seen. Is that going to make me give up my m505... no, but I will expect my next Palm this fall with an ARM processor to have a screen similar in quality. Can't someone ever say ANYTHING good about something other than a PDA made by Palm hardware? Sheeesh!

Dave"

..well, the thing is Sony will probably release another Clie with an ARM processor.

You sure have expensive "kicks".

quote:
This is the way I understand it: The T6x series uses transflective - or TFT - screens. That means that the screen backing is translucent, allowing it to be lit from the back ala IIIc or from the side/front ala m505/515, or both. TFTs are nothing amazing - they've been around for a long time, just not on Palm OS handhelds.
---

Err, no, TFT stands for thin film transistor. Every color palm his a TFT display, I'm fairly sure. The transflective screen is backlit, which helps it to be brighter (because backlights are more effective), but it also reflects light back. Light will go through the screen one way, that's what transflective means.

> ..well, the thing is Sony will probably release another Clie with an ARM processor.

- your right... my point is right now Palm doesn't have anything close to the Clie screen but some on this board kill you if you say it, because of their huge support of Palm hardware. I am one of the largest supporters of Palm hardware considering each and every year since 1996 I have bought the top of the line model from Palm but that doesn't mean I can't give credit where credit is due.

NOW... if bluetooth is built into a m5xx form factor with a 320x320 screen comparable to the T615 with an ARM processor of decent strength and OS 5 from Palm... YOU BET it will replace my Palm, not a Clie version of the same thing. Why? I have loyalty to Palm as long as they continue to have industry leading hardware in what I need (basic PDA functionality perhaps with future access to my cellphone via bluetooth) with all the things I want (the best damn color screen out there)... so if I bought a PDA today it would be Clie (but I'm not buying today) but this fall I full expect Palm (as an independent hardware company struting its stuff) to have something comparable to the Clie screen with the goods I want...!

And I'll buy it. ;-)

Yes my kicks are expensive...!

"
what exactly is the technology powering the amazing T615's screen and how does it work?

...the amazing T615's screen? Who are you? Is this a real question? Who pays you?

"

And who pays you to say so ? Are you the CEO of Palm ? The fact is :T615 does have the BEST screen and it's really amazing.

Dave, you're WAY off...

Not in your assessment of the T615C screen - it truly IS very nice.

BUT, I think you're off in assuming that you get flamed if you say anything nice around about anything but Palm products. The fact is, the pro-Sony fanatics are the ones who appear to be controlling the PIC discussion boards. Say something nice about Palm, and you get flamed. Say something bad about Sony, and you get flamed. Make a statement that is simultaneously positive regarding Palm and negative regarding Sony, and you might as well receive death threats.

LoL I won't flame anyone for praising any product as long as you don't try to some how pull Clie in and give it a few kick in the face.

The are facts that T615 does have better screen than palm M505, if you don't belive it that's fine, you can keep living in your reality distortion field, I don't care.

The new M515 Might be better, I don't know and no one's gonna to compare an unannounced product.

It's not that Palm supporters drag the Clie into the discussion to "kick dirt in its face." It's Sony-users who drag the Clie into the discussion to claim "superiority" over a product they haven't even SEEN yet!

LoL the parent of this thread is hardly a Clie fan post, he just like 320X320 hi res screens, but when palm supporters see 320X320 they started to go crazy on the poster.

"...the amazing T615's screen? Who are you? Is this a real question? Who pays you?"

come on what he said was

"The m515 seems like a great little PDA... if only it had 320x320."

Then people started to question if he's getting paid by sony, LoL. He didn't even compare Clie T615 with palm M505 what are you talking about

"claim "superiority" over a product they haven't even SEEN yet!"

seems you should try to read the thread b4 posting, instead of seeing "320X320" ALERT ATTACK ON PALM BY CLIE FANS.

true... i think you might still be able to get one as yesterday it had already been pulled but Palm said they had about 60 left in stock... maybe some are left, but as you said this is the end of the blue Palm m505.

But the Cranberry edition has been wildly successful. I would expect that this, and in test markets other colors, to be reviewed.

The profitability of these special editions (you may recall as LIMITED EDITIONS ala collector's items) when sold only at the Palm site is quite high and easily controlled from a production stand point.

I have a cranberry and look forward to 'colored' m515s and others.

The palm M505 all together is going to be discontinued on Monday. I have heard that they aren't going to do a price cut or anything, simply get rid of it.

well whatever the final fate of M505 is i hope they have a idea how well the coloured palms was and i'm looking foward to a blue M515 personaly

How do you know the cranberry one has been "wildly succesful"? I've never heard of anyone buying one

I bought one for my sister's birthday, and when she took it to work, two other people had received the cranberry model also as gifts

oh brother.

Yes, there will be a model to replace the m515 - just like the P4 chip will be replaced by whatever new CPU Intel puts out.

Stop sulking, and buy whatever you want!

Palm will not create a 320x320 model until OS 5 arrives in the fall if that is the answer you are looking for. Palmsource (ie. the company making the PalmOS) is making 320x320 native to the operating system so it is natural for Palm (the hardware company) to hold off until OS 5 arrives to deliver a 320x320 unit. Why? Well Sony created their own APIs to hack the system to 320x320 (my wife has a T615 and I know how beautiful they are) but their standard will NOT be the standard when OS 5 arrives. In fact Sony has promised to switch to the native OS 5 standard in their ARM handhelds when it arrives which begs the question... will high res softwear for the Sony models work on OS 5 even if the screen still is 320x320? It looks like the answer is no. SOOO... Palm hardware will wait on the 320x320 screens until the "final" not "hacked" standard is available.

Why isn't it enough?
What kind of upgrade do you want?
Are you just another one of those crybabies who basically acts like Palm is a bunch of retards who can't do anything right?

If you're looking for hi-res from Palm, you're going to have to wait until OS 5.
Otherwise, you've got plenty - OS 4.1, 16mb RAM, slim form factor, etc.

I'm willing to bet the battery life won't be compromised much if at all - Palm may have found a sidelight solution that provides more brightness with minimal power. It has been a year since they developed the m505, after all. What's more, the m515 should ship with DTG Pro 4.0, which includes Slideshow-to-Go. Not a bad deal, and NO PRICE INCREASE!

Oh, and here are 4 reasons not to buy a T615:
1) Poor stylus
2) Poor button design.
3) Lack of AVAILABLE accessories (The "Just Wait" excuse can only take you so far)
4) Terrific screen brightness and clarity is offset somewhat by the lack of color depth - it does appear slightly washed-out

12.5mb per second sony memory stick 2.45mb per second it's a no brainer. Sony only sells sony memory!!

I would expect new models from Sony and Handera that will have high res and bigger batteries/more features. I really expected more than this from Palm. But, at this late date, I don't see Palm doing high res until OS 5 (as well stated above). Too bad.
Palm sure won't get my money this way. Notwithstanding the comments about
1.small stylii (I hardly ever use them anyway, I use my pocket pen/Stylus combo),
2.poor buttons (also not important, I don't do gaming and the jog dial is so much preferable it easily makes the Sony more desireable)
3.lack of peripherals, (don't see much other than a keyboard I might get and I am sure Stowaway will do one soon),
4. screen colors fidelity (OK, this is one in favor of the two new Palms, but I think the high res is easilly the best trade-off...FOR ME. I really like the white white background that comes with the muted reds. The deal seems to be to trade better blue and white for duller red.)

Anyway, there may be one more stop for Palm OS 4.1 hardware and that is the 66MZ Dragonballs. Surely there will be some update to other hardware features when 66 MZ arrives......or maybe not.

So far the only announced product I have seen featuring a 66 is the next model of the Samsung (the Le SPH 1330 as seen in this link http://www.pdafrance.com/articles/article.php?cat=dossierdivers&id=108&p=7 )

-Timothy Rapson-

EEEEH, WRONGO,
Panasonic, and Lexar (I think) sell Memory Stick too (Licensees) Sorry, didn't mean to seem rude, but just go and look around, memory stick isn't just made by sony anymore.

* * *
HOW TO GET BLUETOOTH ON A UNSUPPORTED HANDHELD: Take a pair of pliars, place them around the nearest available tooth, pull, paint it blue, glue it to your handheld

Sandisk also produces Memory Sticks

btw they're cheaper than SD

128 MB $57!!

The stylus and buttons are find and I have big hands. The screen is great. Pictures look great. The M505 is not exactly swimming in accessories either.

To all the people critiquing the Sony Clie buttons:

If you play games, don't get the Sony Clie. Buy a Gameboy Advance. They're cheap at $69 in most places and play much better games than the Palm.

If you have large mitts for hands, don't buy the Sony Clie. In any case, your stumps for fingers will have a hard time with Palms as well. Get a day planner instead.

For the rest of us, the Sony Clie is an excellent choice.

I have a question.
Why does everybody's wife seem to have a T615c? Nobody wants to own one themselves? Or that's the only way they can justify plunking down another $400 for another PDA?
Just curious.
AM

because the T615C is a feminine device. Kind of like the VW Bug or BMW Z3....only women or gay men drive them....."Not that there's anything wrong with it!"

"Or that's the only way they can justify plunking down another $400 for another PDA?
Just curious.
AM"

...Hey , for the same $400 I really had very hard time justifying buying the m505 over the Sony T615 so you better shut up..

"because the T615C is a feminine device. Kind of like the VW Bug or BMW Z3....only women or gay men drive them....."

..hmm another immature SOB
If you feel stupid becouse you already bought your m505 that's ok, learn to live with that, work extra hours and maybe next summer you will get one and maybe in 20 years you will be able to buy a BMW.

what a loser!

I can buy over 20 BMW's for cash, pal.

For cash? Hey, selling drugs is bad, dude. My TV says your killing people.

Now now americans...stop comparing size...

Look, just go and buy the T615 - just don't come back here a week later to complain about the washed out screen, poor buttons, poor stylus, second rate expansion medium, lack of accessories, etc. It's your money, pal, and you are entitled to waste it if you want.

> Or that's the only way they can justify plunking down
> another $400 for another PDA?

- you hit the nail on the head. i wanted it, but not so badly as to give up my m505. SOOO... i got it for my wife and now I marvel at it.

>> The M505 is not exactly swimming in accessories either. <<

And you're shopping where...? It's easy to see at any mainstream store that there are many more accessories for the m505 than the T615.

>> To all the people critiquing the Sony Clie buttons:

If you play games, don't get the Sony Clie. Buy a Gameboy Advance. They're cheap at $69 in most places and play much better games than the Palm.

If you have large mitts for hands, don't buy the Sony Clie. In any case, your stumps for fingers will have a hard time with Palms as well. Get a day planner instead. <<

You need to GIVE UP that chip on your shoulder, Mr. Sony-lover. You've essentially said that the only people who would have a problem with the Sony buttons either play games or have enormous hands. I am physically capable of pressing the Sony buttons, and I don't use my Palm for games. Although they don't pose a physical problem, I still don't like the buttons. I would prefer a different design--even the buttons from the N series. What is so hard to understand about that?

Seems to me someone is a little too in love with their Clie (just what exactly are you sticking in that MS slot?), and needs to get off the soapbox whenever someone else points out an imperfection. You like it - GREAT. That doesn't mean we ALL have to...

"Look, just go and buy the T615 - just don't come back here a week later to complain about the washed out screen, poor buttons, poor stylus, second rate expansion medium, lack of accessories, etc. It's your money, pal, and you are entitled to waste it if you want. "

This reminds me of some stupid ppl who bought a CLie and returned it with a restocking fee of $60, then came on the board to complain about T615 doesnt have wireless, and ask other Clie users to give him back the $60, what a m0r0n.

Anyways T615 does have the best screen in the slim form factor category, if you don't believe it go ask some of your friends, coz maybe they don't live in the same reality distortion field as you do. And what The M5xx series doesnt even have mp3 player, what expansion ?? what ?? I wnder what second rated means to you but to me that second rated medium of yours is used by quite alot of consumer electronics device maker, well maybe not in US (coz US's always 5-10 years lagged behind).

>4. screen colors fidelity (OK, this is one in favor of the two new Palms, but I think the high res is easilly the best trade-off...FOR ME. I really like the white white background that comes with the muted reds. The deal seems to be to trade better blue and white for duller red.)

Ahhh...maybe its just me (i know it isn't cause a ton has been reported about this) but the m505 takes the cake in the 'washed out colors' category. the t615 lacks color depth relative to the n760 and maybe the visor (havent really looked at the visor much), but is a lot better then the m505 in both depth and resolution. Hope the m515 is as good as its reported to be.

"Ahhh...maybe its just me (i know it isn't cause a ton has been reported about this) but the m505 takes the cake in the 'washed out colors' category. the t615 lacks color depth relative to the n760 and maybe the visor ...."

Don't tell them that, it might ruin their reality distortion alogrithm, ssshhhh........

Damn now they know that leaves are green and roses are red. See what you have do just now ??

"Hope the m515 is as good as its reported to be."

Actually, it's a little different than expected. I was having a tough time deciding between the M515 and the T615, and almost walked out of the store with the T615. After going to three stores to make sure I was not looking at any one unusually good or bad device, I picked up the M515 with the intention of trading it back in for the T615 (love that res!) if there were any disappointments. To my surprise, it was better than expected.

SCREEN
The screen, even with the sidelight off, has much better contrast than the 505. The colors have beter saturation, depth, and clarity... you can immediately tell the difference between the 515 and the 505 (again, with the sidelight off).

SIDELIGHT
One of the main advantages over the 505, but not my top priority due to my own 505 being brighter than normal. As they report on the low setting, the 515 is at least twice as bright as a normal 505, but only 30% brighter than my own 505. If you are a regular here, you may have seen me comment on my wife's M505, which blew mine out of the water in the brightness department. The 515 on the low setting is only slightly brighter than her 505. High setting is a different story altogether, and brought back memories of my IIIc, but without the grid being noticable. The high setting is actually too bright unless you are trying to impress someone, and I wish there was a medium setting.

"BLACK" GRID
There isn't one. The spaces between the pixels are smaller than the IIIc and are silver/gray. They are more obvious than the T615 because of the better resolution on the Sony, but even my 1024x768 laptop (and any other laptop screen I've seen) has grid lines that are more obvious than than either the M515 or T615. Between the M515 and the T615, the T615 is better in this department, but don't believe the posts that claim they stand out like a street map.

BATTERY
An unexpected surprise. Much better than my 505, as good or better than my old IIIc, maybe even as good as my IIIe if I keep the sidelight off. The IIIc would get me through ANY day with power to spare, and my handhelds get extreme usage on a good workday, sometimes 10 times the normal usage. Most PPC's need two trips to chargeland per day the way I use handhelds. I have not held back on using the M515, it has been through an entire workday doing everything my other Palms have done and more, and the battery is still at 100%. I don't know what else to say.

RAM
Same as the T615, so no advantage here, but twice as nice as the 505. 16Mb is good no matter which Palm you get!

BUTTONS
No skimping here, best in the business.

GRAFFITI
This was the only downside, as I loved the lit graffiti area on the M505. However, with the sidelight being so bright, you get enough "spillover" to see where you are tapping on the graffiti area.

Nothing else to report at this time. I still have the option to return the M515 in exchange for the T615, but I don't think the jog wheel and resolution are enough to pull me away. Now, the new ones from Sony with the flip screen, camera, and keyboard... THAT's another story! But they are in a different price range and I'd never get any work done!

We'll have to see the unit first. If the 3 settings are good ones why should it matter? I find very little difference between smaller changes that 100%, 50%, off in my wife's T615 with a sliding bar.

Yet another whine from the pro-Sony, anti-Palm twits...

"Yet another whine from the pro-Sony, anti-Palm twits..."

Most "pro-Sony, anti-Palm twits" as you wrote were Palm users just like you that saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and regardless how hard you try to justify your Palm purchase, the Clies are superior innovative PDAs.
I know that Palm cheerleaders will say that the stylus and buttons suck but thats a minor thing compared to twice memory, much much better screen, you can actually see full width Word docs!!, easy acces w/jog wheel and USB hotsync that works.
Of course Sony's sales are far behind Palm, but thats becouse you only find them in BBuy and Circuitcity
:(!

> twice memory

The m515 and T615C have the same amount of memory: 16MB.

>you can actually see full width Word docs!!

Sure you can but you need magnifying glasses to see the miniature text! Don't waste yor time telling me that typing a word doc in that resolution is easier than in large font on a standard palm because it's not true!

The sony text can look like the Palm if you want to.
Can you make your Aplm look like the Sony?

Hahaha. The above statement about "miniature text" is true. I bought ActionNames 5 for my Sony N710C, being thrilled that it would support Sony Hi-Res (same with ISilo). It turns out that "hi-res support" meant something like 8- or maybe 6-point text on the screen. It was really really tiny and practically unreadable unless close to your face.

Of course, using ThinFont or FontHack is a different matter but such "hi-res support" is something I could do without.

"The sony text can look like the Palm if you want to.
Can you make your Aplm look like the Sony?"

LOL LOL LOL :)

>Posted by: I.M. Anonymous @ 2/26/2002 11:25:48 AM
>
>We'll have to see the unit first. If the 3 settings >are good ones why should it matter? I find very >little difference between smaller changes that 100%, >50%, off in my wife's T615 with a sliding bar.

Yet another guy talking about his "wife's T615"... Maybe it's the same guy.

What extra features are you talking about, outside of the hi-res screen?

I disagree. The T615C's main advantages over the m515 are a hi-res screen that doesn't show colors very well and an improved speaker that someone might write some games for someday, maybe.

In the mean time, there are tons of keyboards, modems, stylus/pen combos, and hardcases for the m515. While there are a few for the T415C, the selection doesn't begin to compare. Before you say that the T415C is new and these will come along eventually, the m515 isn't even out yet and there's already tons of stuff for it.

I'm not saying people are wrong who want an T415C. If you really like the hi-res screen, go for it. But people who want a m515 have their reasons. Good reasons.

There is no "Best" handheld. The true killer app is diversity.

Hi there campers,

Note that I used the word "personally" in my comment above. I don't use a Palm keyboard or any other accessories, apart from a hard case and custom stylus. I suspect that most people, like me, use a desktop computer so much that they don't need a keyboard. I realise that there will be exceptions. For people *like me* then, the choice between the Sony and the Palm comes down to the specs/price of the individual unit. On balance, I *personally* feel the T625 offers more. But hey, the M515 isn't out yet so maybe I'll change my mind on 4th March or whenever it does come out.

Did I mention its my birthday on 4th March...

Both machines will be excellent pieces of kit. A couple of the Sony's features *I* like are the hi-res screen and the jog-dial. Still, like all you guys out there I'll be keen to see the 'official' specs when they're available.

Gordon from Edinburgh.

Boy, some people really have to rationalize in order to justify buying an inferior product!

Accessories for T615 are coming faster than you think. Just check out the latest posting in PIC.

I wouldn't be surprised that within 6 months, T615 is the best selling high-end Palm device.

Sony just needs to bring out the CF adapter for T series they have in Japan. After that, let's see who has the more accessories.

Speaking of rationalization, I'll bet you've managed to talk yourself into thinking that the buttons on your 615 don't suck and you really like a stylus so thin it cuts into your hands. I can't wait to see your "The buttons and stylus are great!" message. These always make me laugh.

By the time there are any 615 peripherals out, there will be even MORE for the m515. Palm has an insurmountable lead as Sony had to force all the manufacturers to start all over again.

"I wouldn't be surprised that within 6 months, T615 is the best selling high-end Palm device."

I wouldn't just be surprised, I'd be shocked. Look at the rumoured price on the M130. Those will be FLYING off the shelves. Your average home user (as opposed to the corporate IT market) places a very high premium on good value for the money, and isn't really interested in spending money on extras that aren't truly essential or have more effective home counterparts. For example, why does my PDA have to be able to show movies in high-resolution or play MP3's when I have a 36" TV, DVD, and a Sony Walkman? Less than $300 for a color PDA with a nice form factor, 8mb of memory, hundreds of accessories, and a proven stable OS with outstanding functionality? Palm won't be able to build M130's fast enough.

There was once two people that spent her entire lives debating which was better, a pair of shoes or a pair of pliers. Sound absurd? For you guys, probably not.

"Speaking of rationalization, I'll bet you've managed to talk yourself into thinking that the buttons on your 615 don't suck and you really like a stylus so thin it cuts into your hands. I can't wait to see your "The buttons and stylus are great!" message. These always make me laugh.

By the time there are any 615 peripherals out, there will be even MORE for the m515. Palm has an insurmountable lead as Sony had to force all the manufacturers to start all over again" (posted above)

As I posted above:

1.small stylii (I hardly ever use them anyway, I use my pocket pen/Stylus combo),
2.poor buttons (also not important, I don't do gaming and the jog dial is so much preferable it easily makes the Sony more desireable)
3.lack of peripherals, (don't see much other than a keyboard I might get and I am sure Stowaway will do one soon),
4. screen colors fidelity (OK, this is one in favor of the two new Palms, but I think the high res is easilly the best trade-off...FOR ME. I really like the white white background that comes with the muted reds. The deal seems to be to trade better blue and white for duller red.)

Supposing these to be true (they are true *for me*)
I think the T615C is far ahead of the M515. Moreover, from what I've read 50% of all Palm users never even install a piece of third party software, much less purchase auxiliary hardware. I have had a Mako and then and Ipaq for 10 months and the only hardware I have bought form them is a flash card and stylii/pens. I would like a camera but won't likely buy one until they get to 1 megapixel, and that's a long way off. So, if I don't need what Palm offers, I am far more likely to get the Sony. Actually, even the latest Sony still lacks the dual slot feature I am holding out for. But if my Ipaq gave up today, I would certainly have a T615C tomorrow over either of the new Palms.

But I *do* agree with the post above that sees big sales for he M130. It is clearly THE model in the $200-$300 price range. Palm IIICs are selling for $230 right now. Add the rechargable battery and memory slot to outside viewability and Palm better hope they have scheduled a LOT of manufacturing capacity.

-Timothy (I really need to register!) Rapson

Posted by: I.M. Anonymous @ 2/26/2002 11:51:29 AM

Boy, some people really have to rationalize in order to justify buying an inferior product!

I own a Sony and just want to say that the person who posted the above is a ******. I owned the m505 as well and it was a great machine until I lost it :-( The Sony is good but the m505 holds it's own no problems. I should state that my girlfriend bought me the Sony after I lost the m505.

The Sony DOES (don't tell me it doesn't coz it does!) feel much larger in the hand than the m505 but yes, the Sony screen wins hands down. Colours are a bit washy though. I would be happy with either an m505/515 or a T615c as reading ebooks and looking at pictures are not my thing at all. For me they are electronic agendas and nothing more...well, maybe stylish too!

So all you bigoted Sony posters, please stop saying that the Sony is so, so superior...because it just plain isn't...although it is still an excellent product as is the m505.

> Moreover, from what I've read 50% of all Palm users never even install a piece of third party
> software, much less purchase auxiliary hardware.

This is a commonly-held belief that turns out to not be true. During PalmSource, Mike Mace displayed the results of a survey that showed that 82% of Palm users are aware that they can load third-party applications onto their handhelds and 67% have done so.

Sorry, no figures on hardware sales.

---
News Editor

.the buttons an dstylus are infe. I have big hands and am a heavy user. Are the M505 buttons better? yes but not enough to matter. There are already several games that us the new speaker and plenty of things you can do wiht other sounds. the T615 is far superior to the M505 and will be to the M515 as well. Hope you enjoy looking at grainy screens.

Happy birthday Gordon.

Say guys, what do you say we all chip in and buy Gordon a Sony T615C, pink. and 20 BMW Z3s (cash) and whatever else he wants. Everyone give a little and we'll all be able to give alot.

-Timothy Rapson-

i'm looking into purchasing a new handheld and the sony seems more appealing w/ its higher resolution screen, plus the mp3 player doesnt add much size to the unit (although i havent looked for mp3 player's for the palm) and the digital camera, while not much more than a toy at 320x240 resolution, doesnt add much bulk to the unit either, but all things considered, when it comes down to accessories im probably going to end up buying a palm. the sony units arent even available at any store where i live (i would have to order any accessories i would need for it) i like the fact of just being able to walk in to the local staples and pickup a case, keyboard, extra stylus and perhaps a few other accessories for my palm.

Dear Timothy,

Thank you very much for your kind suggestion. However, I should like to point out that I would rather not have a pink Sony, as I would be unlikely to use it much (at least not in public).

Seriously though, I think your views expressed above make a lot of sense. Sometimes posters forget that tons of accessories are not always needed by everyone, and that buttons aren't designed for games. The M130 will be a huge hit with non-business users.

I look forward to receiving many gifts,

Gordon from Edinburgh

Let me see if I understand this correctly: You are asking for advice about whether to you should buy:

a) the rumoured (but, presumably, soon to be released) m515; or

b) the much hyped (but flawed) T615; or

c) a derivative of the T615 (details of which are speculation, at best).

This is insane. Put your analyst on danger money, baby.

>> There was once two people that spent her entire lives debating which was better, a pair of shoes or a pair of pliers. Sound absurd? For you guys, probably not. <<

LOL! Right on!

Ed:

Going by your your statement:

"This is a commonly-held belief that turns out to not be true. During PalmSource, Mike Mace displayed the results of a survey that showed that 82% of Palm users are aware that they can load third-party applications onto their handhelds and 67% have done so."

Out of 100 palm users, 18 haven't installed third party software because they didn't know they could, while out of the remaining 82 palm users out of 100, 27 have not installed third party software. 18 plus 27 equals 45 out of 100 Palm users that haven't installed third party software. That is pretty close to the 50% that the previous poster stated. It is also an excellent example of how numbers can be twisted to make it look in Palm's favor.

It isn't 67% of the 82%. According to the survey, 67% of all Palm users have installed third party software.

To have meant what you said, the sentence would have to have been something close to, "Mike Mace displayed the results of a survey that showed that 82% of Palm users are aware that they can load third-party applications onto their handhelds and 67% of those people have done so."

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News Editor

67% is still quite a low number, considering probably a pretty large percentage of that 67% never ever install any software that's not a freeware or shareware with annoying popups but still works.

67% means that a lot of people out there aren't using their Palms to their full potential. On the other hand, perhaps the remaining 33% are happy to use their machines only as hi-tech diaries and address books. I wouldn't be surprised. I consider myself a 'power user' as I have my Vx with me all the time, use it constantly for work and a lot for etext/avantgo reading. Oh, and a few games too. Still, I imagine that the majority of palm owners aren't power users and are content with the onboard applications. Does anyone know what the stats are for usage of bundled software? The fact that Palm Inc, Sony and other manufacturers are bundling 3rd party software should alert new owners to the fact that 3rd party software exists! I'm looking forward to a text-to-speech prog - as far as I'm aware, this shouldn't be too difficult to produce considering the level of audio-tech built into the recent Sonys. Am I right in thinking that the only leap-of-tech required is a faster processor? Anyone...?

I'm eagerly awaiting all those birthday presents from you guys, but I'm starting to wonder how you will be able to deliver them to a thread. Hmmm...

Gordon from Edinburgh

I don't think anyone can call this "turning the corner" The m515 is simply a replacement for the m505 which was flawed in a couple of ways. The m130 is interesting, though.

I'm inclined to agree with Sandbuck. It's not that either of these products is such a standout (though both are attractive), certainly not next to the Clie. But together and combined with several of the other news coming out of Palm, it does seem like they have a renewed focus and have started to emerge from a very difficult period. OS 5.0 will be a big make-or-break moment. If people see it as truly feature-competitive with PPC 2002, then the Palm platform's other advantages (and perceived advantages) should let it keep the lead. But people are expecting a lot. . .

Hmm.

So Curently the Palm Line Up is
i705 $449
m505 $399
m500 $329
m125 $199
m105 $149
m100 $99

So the Palm Line Up will shortly be:

i705 $449
m515 $400
m500 $hmm **
m130 $280
m125 $159
m105 $99
m100 ( which should be discontinued)

** What will the new price for tho m500 be? It seems to me that to charge more for a non-color handheld would be a mistake (despite the better form factor and bigger screen). So If I were Palm I would sell it at $249. Of course that would mean a $80 price reduction on the m500.

Also, I agree these two new products at good price points make for a strong product line. A Palm comeback? Maybe? What Palm really needs to do in the next year is hi-res screens, and multimedia capabilities. .What does everyone else think?

- David

Turned the corner? I don't think so. Wait until everyone sees how grainy the screen on the M515 is. Everything else they are doing is from sheer desperation.

Lets put it this way: Palm m515 is what the m505 should have been from the very begining. This happens when the design team does not listen what the users want.

>> I don't think anyone can call this "turning the corner" The m515 is simply a replacement for the m505 which was flawed in a couple of ways. The m130 is interesting, though.
Flawed, but still popular

>> it does seem like they have a renewed focus and have started to emerge from a very difficult period.
Yep. Their moves this year have shown a lot of common sense. Boring? You could say that. The sex appeal comes in Q4 and beyond.

>> Turned the corner? I don't think so. Wait until everyone sees how grainy the screen on the M515 is.
Sony's impressive technology aside, non-enthusiasts are "ok" that resolution.

>> Everything else they are doing is from sheer desperation.
The OS5 architecture is to well thought-out to be considered desperation.

>> If people see it as truly feature-competitive with PPC 2002,
>> then the Palm platform's other advantages (and perceived
>> advantages) should let it keep the lead. But
>> people are expecting a lot. . .

Yeah - They expect at least one data-losing crash a week, three to five hours of battery life, and a platform/name change every other OS release.

Microsoft coulden't release a good (IE: Stable, user friendly) handheld OS if somebody GAVE it to them. They're too busy trying to use handhelds in a bid for 'Total Global Domination' to make something that works reliably. All Palm has to do is avoid following those idiots into the 'Feature bloat' quagmire, and they'll STILL be taking the PocketPC OS' lunch money in 2006.

33. not 66.

Hahahaha... funny.

For those not getting the joke, this seems to be a reference to an old hoax that "Hungarian" Palms had problems, while "US" Palms were perfect. A bit of study quickly showed that wasn't the case.

Oops - I got my hoax wrong. The hoax was that a hack would increase contrast on m505s, but only those built in Hungary. Search for "Hungary Hoax" in the search feature at left and you'll find it.

Actually...it would be nice if they were produced in one place only (if the quality control is good). This would prevent rumors of one being better than another from happening in the first place. Those with Hungarian m505s have a resale issue now, as a result of web hype.

I have no idea what the overall statistics were for the USA vs. Hungary issue, so I really can't give an informed opinion about that.

However, I can share my personal experience:

Bought a brand-new M500 11/2001, sticker on back said "Assembled in Hungary"--seemed fine until I tried to use the backlight. Barely even a hint of a glow. Returned it, replacement came a week later, back sticker said "Assembled in USA"--backlight works fine, and I've been extremely pleased with it overall.

Like I said, that's only two handhelds, but it's all I've got to go on. I won't be buying another one made in Hungary if I can help it, and if I have no other choice, I'll only buy one I can easily return for a new one at the store where I bought it. Returns to Palm seem to be replaced by refurbs.

based on personal experience.

and you believed palm where they said it wast true?

No, what we believed was Ed Hardy, Wes Salmon, Palmstation, and all the other site and authorities that tested it out and found it was a hoax. Did you actually test the alleged "hack" yourself and find that it worked? You'd be the only one.

The hoax worked for Steve Bush, from Brighthand.com!

(Not really, he only stated that it worked for a while, but it was amusing anyway)!

It was certainly a hoax. I have seen several defective Palm M505's, but there was no pattern to the place of assembly. My first 505 was from Hungary and was bad, my wife's first 505 was from America and was bad. Her second was from America and was flawless... everything fits and works perfectly, and the screen is bright like my laptop. I guess we should consider that a defect though... :)

MY current 505 is another story, drains the battery while OFF! Still waiting to hear back from Julie at Palm...

no because the API allowing high-res will debut in OS 5. the sony models use a sony API that is not a standard and will cause many apps made for the sony API to break under the OS 5 API (which even Sony will adopt.)

reminds me of when the 56k modems came out and multiple standards existed... i think waiting for the universal standard (ie. OS 5) isn't a half bad idea, esp. since sony models can't be flashed to OS 5.

And where di you get this information? Especially that hires that supports Sony does not work in OS5? Why can't you say PalmOS takes the hires from Sony and incorporate into OS5? They took VFS and 16bit colors from their licensees?

Talking abt bigoted Sony supporters. It is the same with this guy that try to scare people from buying Sony without any proof. Get a life. Do not twist the truth or put unfounded truth of yourself just that your beloved Palm Inc survice.

Oh, in case you want to know, I do not own any palm os. Intend to buy one. It is really ugly to see you guys fighting among palm os devices. PPCs guys will be happy to see this.

"This information" comes from the PalmSource developer conference last month where the details of high density screen support in OS 5 were revealed. The OS 5 high density design is different from Sony's.

However, the PalmSource people said that Sony was likely to release an OS patch that would let code using the new screen density APIs work on existing 320x320 devices.

CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead

How hard it is to patch a code seriously, you just need to make a wrapper function, funny how people could make it seems like such a big deal while there is not really a problem.

"However, the PalmSource people said that Sony was likely to release an OS patch that would let code using the new screen density APIs work on existing 320x320 devices."

How would this work, wouldn't any new code using the new screen density APIs be optimized to run only on ARM and OS5? Or is there going to be some sort of emulation? I am aware that OS5 is backwards-compatible but is the Sony hardware forwards-compatible?

thats right i think it's funny that it took palm a year to add these features to the 505.
nothing new so far.

regards,
SaxonMan
Moderator-Handspring
--------------------------------------
may the holy palmostles be with you

No-one has introduced anything revolutionary since the N710C came out last June. The T615C and m515 are a nice handhelds but there's nothing revolutionary about them.

We'll have to wait until this fall for the ARM based/OS5 models to hit for the revolution to begin.

Palm is definitely behind the curve in terms of innovation. Sony has had a 320x320 device on the market with a great screen, MP3 playback and a jog dial, and Palm just now creates a color device with the screen that it should have had in the first place.

I am willing to bet that we will be dissapointed with OS5 devices as well. The only real improvement they will have is support for higher res; no ARM, multitasking, etc., until OS6. And once again, hi-res has already been on the market for some time so there's no innovation there.

Must the Japanese always beat us to the punch?

> I loved my 505 except for the lousy screen. This corrects that problem except for the fact that I have to pony up $400 bucks just to get the same device I have now.

If you love your m505 what is your problem? Don't say the screen is lousy because it isn't. You may have a faulty unit. My screen is fine, absolutely no problems at all. You don't have to fork out a penny, you have a perfectly useable m505. Just wait for a few months and then shell out some cash on OS5 devices. Only someone who bedwets would actually dump an m505 just to get the m515. Has a better backlight and 8mb more memory on the m515 suddenly made your m505 unusable??? No, I didn't think so. Much more intelligent to wait and see what OS5 brings then dump the m505.

> thats right i think it's funny that it took palm a year to add these features to the 505.

It took Palm a year because they had to sell the remaining inventory of m505s and milk the customers dry. Now, the customers with defective m505s can pony up and buy the m515.

I was so sick-and-tired last year after seeing the m505 in person that I cancelled my m505 order and bought a Sony Clie. Haven't looked back. In fact, I've recommended at least 10 people to buy Clies instead of Palms. All are happy.

Palm is going to have to do much harder if they want to regain mindshare. As I'm completely underwhelmed.

Well, I will also continue to recommend Clie handhelds (I've been a happy 610 owner, recently upgraded to 615), but with a caveat. The Clie handhelds are great, as long as they work. If the stop working (as did my 615), Sony Support's rumored pitiful levels isn't a rumor for me any longer. :(

So, my caveat will be, buy sony if the nice screen and extra goodies are worth the chance of having to deal with their extremely crappy support if there is a problem.

And before you start saying Palm's support isn't any better, let me say that I've had on occasion in the last five years to call Palm support about six times. NEVER have I had the problems or gotten the run-around that I got the FIRST time I called Sony.

- awaiting the return of my (repaired) 615... in "approx 2-3 weeks", meanwhile back to the 610...

Reminds me of Handspring, who's BIG announcement is the NEW, IMPROVED Neo, basically a rehashed Visor with new fruity colors!

Palm spends a year to increase the backlighting, which never should have been so bad to begin with. They also add 16 megs of Ram. Whow!

Sony comes out with Hi Res, improved speaker, improved InfrRed, 16 megs, and MP3 capability, jog wheel and Palm loyals have to find SOMETHING to bash Sony over (crappy buttons, crappy stylus!)

I personally am a little disappointed in both Palm AND Handspring in their lack of developement. I'd rather give my $$$ to Sony, who at least is trying to push the bounds of the Palm OS, and, in my opinion,doing an excellent job of it.

Whatever. Enjoy whatever device you get.

Since the N710C was announced in May of last year, what amazing new features has Sony added?

* 16 MB. Handspring did this first and the m515 will have it too.

* Better speaker. Been in the TRGpro since 1999.

* TV remote control. That's OK but it's not a major advance.

Sony keeps introducing new models but hasn't done anything really new in going on a year.

In that same time, they've made several major screw-ups. The T415's screen is a dud. Their wireless service is only for the low end S series and the modem is way too big.

You know, I feel bad writing this. I actually like Sony and their handhelds. I might buy one when my current handhelds needs an upgrade. But the Sony-heads here have this smug, insulting attitude that makes me want to prove them wrong, which is why I wrote this.

"You know, I feel bad writing this. I actually like Sony and their handhelds. I might buy one when my current handhelds needs an upgrade. But the Sony-heads here have this smug, insulting attitude that makes me want to prove them wrong, which is why I wrote this."

HHHhhmm ... if not for some people who lives in the reality distortion field which claims that M505 is better than T615 or T-series is just a over priced remote controll, I guess it won't piss so many Sony Fans off.

Come on it doesnt take an idiot to realize that the T-series is not just a remote control, if that's not trash talking I don't know what is. And even color-blind people will notice that M505 has the worse color screen ever in the history of computing, that is obvious facts. Facts are Facts, twisting facts will turn a good discussion into a bunch of trash talking insults.

>what amazing new features has Sony added?
>
>* 16 MB. Handspring did this first and the m515 will >have it too.
>
>* Better speaker. Been in the TRGpro since 1999.
>
>* TV remote control. That's OK but it's not a major >advance.
>
>Sony keeps introducing new models but hasn't done >anything really new in going on a year.

While they haven't done anything really "new," keep in mind that they added all those features onto a single device (T-series) while still keep in slim design. That's a feat in itself.

It's easy to pick apart elements of the clie, but you have to admit that sony's delivered on the wish list for most users who post on this site:
- slim design
- external speaker
- great color screen
- more memory

Also, it simply amazes me that most palm users who complain about the T415 screen being too dim are also the same people who justify that the m505 is bright enough when compared to the T615C.

"Also, it simply amazes me that most palm users who complain about the T415 screen being too dim are also the same people who justify that the m505 is bright enough when compared to the T615C."

SSSssshhh how many times have I told you people, DON'T TELL THEM THE TRUTH!!! It'll totally break their reality distortion algorithm, They used to think grasses are red and Roses are green, now you totally messed up their mind, they might even go crazy because of you.

But what if we're all color blind?
What if the sky is actually green?

Don't tell the truth to people who do not want to hear it. You might hurt yourself.

Cheers,
Jan

/*
One thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse.
*/

> it simply amazes me that most palm users who complain
> about the T415 screen being too dim are also the same
> people who justify that the m505 is bright enough

1. The T415's screen is far worse than the m505. The m505's screen is at least readable under any condition I have seen it in, though it is not "bright" enough to be a decent COLOR screen . The T415's screen is unreadable and absolutely useless under any condition I have ever seen it in.
2. At least the m505 had battery life as an excuse for its poor brightness, in comparison to the T415 which had no excuse for such a poor screen.

The remaining T415s are probably going to get dumped in a landfill somewhere. Sony can probably write them off that way and come out further ahead than the absurdly low clearance price they'd have to sell them for to get rid of them.

everybody happy now :)

people next time please compare apple to apple oranges to oranges. there's no point comparing a color model to a b/w model, anyways basically they both sucked, so you are just trying to debate which one is worse.

You mean AAA batteries. I don't think this will exist on the m130. I believe the m130 will be using the recharable lithiums.

m130 has a lithium polymer battery, just like the m505.

cyrus

Regardless. For new users, the Palm m130 and m515 are going to be hits baby!

Yeah, hit me baby one more time...

oops - they - did - it - again -

Of course no built in BlueT !!!
It would solve too many problems at once !!!

It would put an end to this 'universal connector' b***sh*t. Changing the connector for every new model.
Most accessories people use are large enough to hold a $10 bluetooth chip. One single keyboard would serve them all for years to come. Think of it. An entire industry would collapse! Noooo, you don't want that to happen, do you?

It would solve the communication issue with other gizmo's like mobile phones, desktop computers and virtually any other source of data around you that you can think of. At home, at the office, in your car, you mention it. It would be too much for you to cope with. All this information would lead to burnout. It would fill the 8mb too quickly. Don't ever fall for BlueT.

Other than that, it would be too convenient. You want to aim two infrared ports at each other. Now just don't move for a sec....
You want to carry around all those cables with you. Make sure you've got the connection with you.

And you most certainly do not want an USB port in your cradle. That would mean you could use USB peripherals today!!!!! Good heavens no, that should never happen. God forbid I should be able to plug in an USB keyboard in a pda cradle and type ahead. A whole industry down the drain.
Personally, I think this whole USB connection thing with pda's is way too fast. At least Palm understands this and will fry those who try and deny it ever happened.

Industry wide support for BlueT would mean Palm competitors could release pda's and existing peripherals would actually work!! Now we don't want that to happen, do we? Do you know how much money people have invested in these peripherals? Often more than the pda itself!!! Remember that when crying for BlueT!

WAAAHHHAAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAA
sob sob

Cheers ;-)
Jan

/*
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
*/

That there's no Bluetooth in the m515 is clearly part of a government plot to take over our minds with signals beamed from satellites. Geez, someone has been watching too many episodes of the X-files.

There aren't enough Bluetooth peripherals yet to justify adding it. Palm will release one late this summer, giving time for more mobile phones, printers, etc.

If you can't wait, get the Bluetooth SD card, also from Palm. It's an OK stop-gap solution.

I'm afraid this is an chicken/egg thing.

This would have been an easy and relatively cheap addition to the m5xx line. Easy because with the external model available this means that all the basic coding and testing of bluetooth has already been done.

Fixing the screen and adding 8 mb of memory brings Palm up to the standards that others have set.
Adding Bluetooth would have allowed Palm to cry victory again.
"Palm boosts technical innovation to new unprecedented hights" Yeah, I can see the marketeers crap. How about this one: "Palm sets new standards for industry" That's a nice one, isn't it? I think I should make a career move. "Palm back at the frontline of technical innovation" Oops I did it again.

Don't get me wrong. I think the 515 is a fine pda. But Palm missed a chance here. It is a big moral boost to be able to call yourself leader again after the period Palm has gone through.

And to mention something a lot of posters here do not want to hear about: over at the ppc camp, the first bt enabled machines are out. Bluetooth is not some experimental playground for nerds anymore. In fact, the bluetooth explosion was expected to happen last year. It is acually quite mature already.

Cheers,
Jan

/*
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
*/

Here's what I know from my direct sources:

The m125 will continue for a few more months.....the m105 should be discontinued by the end of the second calendar quarter.....it's replacement will be out by then.

The replacement for the m500 may be the m525..and may also have color, though I have not been given any solid proof yet.

Direct from a memo: "We plan to have all Palms support the UC by end of 2Q"

I should have a lot more by mid march

No.
Yes.

No.
No.

No.
Yes.

Bluetooth chips placed on motherboard now cost about $10. They think we will pay $130 to add it in a slot (the only slot available!)

NO, NO, NO!