Comments on: Editorial: Is Graffiti Dying?

i remember a long discussion on this about a month back after this story:
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2944

there were about 2 people on this site out of 40 that liked a keyboard better than graffiti. i guess we are not average users, but still...

Probably. As it stands now, the majority of Palm users I know use grafitti for short entries, and use an alternate method when it comes to the long ones. I have a PPK which I love, but can do a few paragraphs in grafitti just as quickly as I could on paper. For longer emails, letters, and reports, I'll pop out the keyboard. Time-wise, grafitti gets used 90%, keyboard 9%, and using the Palm Desktop 1%. For the QUANTITY of entries, I would say over half of everything was keyboard entry. I would not write multiple pages using graffiti any more than I would write out the same amount on paper and pen. For a thumb board, I would probably draw the line at about two pages.

Of course, the PPK is a full sized keyboard, and a good typist can hammer along at a good pace. A thumb board is a different story, and if that was my only option as opposed to the PPK, I would use graffiti 97% of the time.

I thought that my wife would be a good canidate for the thumb board type keyboard, but she gave it back so I could get my money refunded. To her, even though she is not proficient at graffiti, did not like the complications. A capital "N" required alt-shift for upper case, then type "N" then another alt-shift on the thumb board to go back to lower case. She knows that all she needs in graffiti is an upstroke, then write the letter. Anything more complicated for the same results is just a waste of time.

first, the market is far from satuarated.
I just saw a poll number that say
about 10% of US has a PDA.

Many Palm owners are also waiting to upgrade
when there is one that is worth it.
I recently just upgraded from Vx to M515.
It is hard for me to pick up the Vx now.

As Graffiti, it is true that it can turn some people
away. But as more and more people have Palm, people
are less inclined to do so, as they think if you
can do it, I should not have problem.

Many years ago, I owned a Newton and looked at Graffiti. I thought how could I serve a software instead of the other way around. I never picked up
Graffiti, though it was free to me.
I am still not very good with Graffiti. But I never
feel it is a problem.

ted

I am one of those people who would NOT buy a Palm with a keyboard. I could be persuaded into using an onscreen keyboard (maybe), but I can't see any use for the thumb boards at all. I have very small fingers, I would be the ideal candidate for them. But I just can't see how it would be faster than grafitti. In fact I used to own an old Sharp Wizard, and would not upgrade when the new ones did not have the ability to write on the screen. (No letter recognition-just a scratch pad.) I did not use the To Do List, or the Calendar because I felt it was too much of a pain to use the keys. I entered the phone numbers I needed and used the "scrath book" function only. The reason I bought my first Palm was because you could write on the screen and it was smaller! I didn't mind learning grafitti, it's so close to "normal" writing, but I would mind having to learn the keyboard layout of any keyboard. And I would especially mind it if it increased the size of the PDA. I tried fitaly stamp because they claim you can get faster at it. I used their software game to try to learn it. I could not get faster than grafitti, and I could not use it when it was a little dark so I didn't keep it. (I'm sure you could get faster eventually, but one week is all I'm willing to spend on learning anything new.) I would NOT use a Palm for large entries, but for what I use it for, grafitti is absolutely perfect. If they invented something that does not add to the size, does not require any extra steps to use, and increase input speed without spending more than about a week of learning it, THEN I would change. Until then, if they discontinue grafitti, I will hunt down all the older models that have it. Palms do what I need them to do right now. And I can't imagine any future improvements that would be worth losing grafitti over...But this is only my opinion...

Yes, yes, yes. I keep my palm in my pocket. Increasing size to add a keyboard would be distressful to say the least.

Graffiti took 2 days to learn and for me made the palm a useful tool. I dislike small keyboards and would not want a tiny keyboard on any handheld.

Hopefully I am not in the minority on this.

The average palm OS user (I know a lot of them) will prefeer grafitty over a thumb keyboard.

Remember that average non power users (i.e. people that don't visit this site) don't buy accessories for their handhelds, so grafitty is their only option for text entry.

Also when these people are going to buy newer palms they will already know the grafitty alphabet.

Last, most of the people that use handhelds (like executives) value a lot the form factor (that's why the V, 5xx, and T615 where huge success) these people will preffer a small device to enter addresses and small notes, not a device with a built in keyboard.

Graffiti is great , I can even write without looking anymore it's like the think it & it's there. I jhope they never take it away.....
Although this is true the Sony Clie Peg-N760 wrecked their graffiti writing area by trying to increase its sensitivity - thinking they would improve it. The other Sony Clie versions are 10x better.
GO GRAFFITI.

- JCrusader Jesus reigns

Personally, I'd love to have a machine with a built in keyboard and virtual Graffiti software. Best of both worlds, really.

I like virtual grafitti WITH virtual keyboard support - one of the most under rated/reported advantages of 'virtual grafitti' in my opinion. I wouldn't mind standard Palm OS virtual keyboard so much if it didn't disrupt the screen/interface and take up half of the already precious screen real estate. This gets around that problem. The new Sony's have this (NR series), do Handera virtual grafitti devices have this as well??? (i have never used/seen one of these).

I do not see the use of typing in such a small keyboard, if I wanted that I would get A sony picture book or a Windows CE called handheld. Then what is the purpose of being light and slim.

I think graffiti is very convinient. I thought of buying a keyboard for my M505 or my T615 (sony, not out yet the keyboard) But just to think of the extra bulk and need a flat surface!!! plus extra carrying thing. I really don't need it.

Graffiti is jus fine!!

"first, the market is far from satuarated.
I just saw a poll number that say
about 10% of US has a PDA."

I think Ed meant that the early adopter market is saturated. 90% of the average Joe/Janes out there still don't know what a PDA is. Most likely, if you're reading this site and posting to it, you're part of the 10%, and therefore already see the benefits of graffiti.

"As Graffiti, it is true that it can turn some people
away. But as more and more people have Palm, people
are less inclined to do so, as they think if you
can do it, I should not have problem."

Just because a select few (10%) have PDAs, it doesn't mean that others (90%) will go out and buy one. Ed's point of the article is that graffiti is the main hurdle that most average users are not willing to overcome.

"I am still not very good with Graffiti. But I never
feel it is a problem."

Being good (or bad) with graffiti has nothing to do with the average user. He/she sees graffiti as an alternative input method--one that requires time (which we know as not alot) to learn.

Keyboards are a good idea for manufacturers because it takes Joe's/Jane's initial trepidations out of the purchase decision. Think of graffiti/keyboard feature as door. Some (readers/posters to PIC) view it as a benign gateway to digital nirvana. Others see it as Dante's entrance into Inferno with the warning enscribed above: "Abandon hope all ye who enter."

"I like virtual grafitti WITH virtual keyboard support - one of the most under rated/reported advantages of 'virtual grafitti' in my opinion. I wouldn't mind standard Palm OS virtual keyboard so much if it didn't disrupt the screen/interface and take up half of the already precious screen real estate. This gets around that problem. The new Sony's have this (NR series), do Handera virtual grafitti devices have this as well??? (i have never used/seen one of these)."

Yes indeed, this is a proven feature on the Handera. It uses a virtual graffiti area, and you can add a program that places the keyboard IN the graffiti area. Not only that, but you can still write w/graffiti while the keyboard is visible! It's really a well thought and well executed concept.

Sean

Forgot to mention that the Handera keyboard software is a free download from their website.

Sean

Ever since we evolved form apes we have used our hands diffenently. Anybody that has use a thumb board immediately realizes that we were not made to type with our thumbs. Learn graffiti, its not that hard.

Graffiti should be used in testing for driver's licenses. If anyone cannot learn Graffiti in a half an hour is certainly not intelligent enough to operate a motor vehicle, raise children, or eat a happy meal.

graffiti is Palm's way of saying 'Hi. We here at Palm are too much of a bunch of stupid azzes to do what Apple did with the Newton OS'. nobody who touch types wants to learn graffiti or type with their thumbs. dying? graffiti will be around forever, just like DOS, atari 800 computers, and pizza.

I'll have to admit that FitalyStamp has been far better than Graffiti or a "thumbpad" keyboard. A person is going to have a stylus in hand anyway to access menus and dialog buttons, so why not make the keyboard use the stylus like Fitaly? I use to own a keyboard, but I got frustrated in having to ready the stylus every time I needed to use a menu. Fitaly is the most efficient arrangement to access all characters in a small space. Fitaly also gives the benefit of still keeping stroke hacks. License them and the problem is solved.

-------
James Sorenson

personally i find it much easier to use graffiti for short input, and my stowaway for longer stuff. i haven't found any of the on-screen alternatives to be of any use for me--just my opinion.

When I left graffiti on the side my choice was the fitaly stamp mainly for its ability to access international characters "sliding" the letters. That's a feature I haven't found that easy to use in any other overlay yet and when you write 98 percent of the time in a different language than English this is a must.

C_Blue

I use Graffiti most of the time. For longer tasks, I
use my Stowaway. I got a Newton 2100 and installed
Graffiti on it. With my sloppy handwriting, the Newton
had an easier time recognizing letter then words :)
Also I kept finding myself wnating to make punctuation
strokes in the HWR.

On my Visor, I added ScreenWrite Hack and that has
greatly increased recognition.

I hope if Xerox *does* win that they make Unistrokes or
Graffiti available. I don't think thumb typing is for me.

FITALY Stamp is the best thing out there, period.

Not only is it a proven fact that it's faster....WAY faster than Qwerty.....it's also more user friendly than QWERTY, although few people realize this.

The ability to slide to insert capitals, numbers, parentheses, etc., just saves SO much time.

It took me about 10 minutes to get up to 20 WPM with Fitaly. I was at 35 about an hour later. I'm at 50+ now, although I quit using the practice app. after about 2 weeks.

I'm not naive enough to recommend to someone that they use FITALY to type a term paper, but I wouldn't recommend Graffiti either.

I'm in an office environment, so I use a lot of "irritating" characters like parenthesis, dashes, and hyphens when taking notes, addresses, etc.

NOTHING does it better than FITALY.

Trust me, I have every reason to be biased towards QWERTY....I type 73 WPM on it.

FITALY is the best....I wish it were on everthing.

I use fitaly stamp and even though I usually can't remember where the letters are it's still much faster than Graffiti. I would like to see an on-screen keyboard like fitaly but with the ability to re-arrange the letters. I question the fitaly arrangement of letters. It doesn't seem more efficient than querty to me. I think I could have learned the fitaly keyboard much faster if it were arranged somewhat similar to querty.

Fitaly has just as bad (or worse) a learning curve as Graffiti.

Since the point is that the most intuitive entry method is the one that will sell, I don't think Fitaly is the solution.

All infidels will come to sudden end.
Hawkins and the Holy Graffiti will endure forever!!!

Fitaly is great. I know it, most of the readers of this page know it, some other ppl know it, but it has the same problemas grafitti: it alienates users. It ain't any better for palm than graffiti, whaat's more, it would alienate some grafiti fans and it would still mean liscensing.

-Dagger
----
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -- Mark Twain

Fitaly's letters are arranged so that a minimum amount of movement is required when typing common words. Think of it as the Palm-version of the Darwin keyboard (anyone remember those?). We really need to dump QWERTY, as it was originally designed to SLOW us down so that we'd quit jamming the old mechanical typewriters. Bad standards just don't seem to die.

In reference to the comment that Fitaly has as sharp of a learning curve as Graffiti: Not so! You can still "hunt and peck" the Fitaly Pad, but graffiti requires you to search the reference. I learned Fitaly a lot faster than I learned Graffiti (which I still stink at).

However, despite my long-winded defense to the Fitaly layout, I must admit that choice is good. If we EVER get a full-length soft-graffiti screen as standard, then Fitaly could provide the option for Fitaly, Qwerty, or Custom layout. Also, Fitaly allows you to drop to Graffiti mode with one click. Talk about the best of all worlds!

-------
James Sorenson

Doh! I meant Dvorak keyboard, not Darwin keyboard. Geez, my memory is already going...

-------
James Sorenson

For me the benefit of Graffiti is that I can use it without looking. This is one of the reasons many people bother to learn to become touch-typists. It is not easy to be a touch-typist with a thumb keyboard or with an on-screen keyboard.

Quicktype/Fitaly overlays are cute, but they have one major drawback : you have to look while you tap. Anyone who's used a 'real' keyboard on a PC/laptop will have eyes set on the screen, not on the keyboard.

To make things worse, these overlays are built onto the 'invisible' part of the screen. Unlike the virtual Graffiti keyboard, you can't use them in a dark room (e.g. in a cinema should your work require you to do reviews or such like), or simply at night, in a car etc. The same goes for any thumbsize keyboard, which to me disqualifies them.

Handwriting recognition is nice (as with Windows CE) but I guess it takes substantial resources, but screen feedback would already be an improvement. In any event, for really quick notes I use Notepad or Diddlebug - sure, I have to manually translate off-line but that's the only way not to miss anything

Last point, why not extend the screen down to the graffiti area and make it all virtual, offering more screen real-estate?

To overcome the size problem, I came up with an idea that some will undoubtedly find incredibly stupid : have a virtual keyboard with only half the keys, but twice as big. You need all keys though, so I propose alternating halfs, left 500 milliseconds, right 500 milliseconds (or faster, with some heuristic adaptation). I'm serious, should I know how to I would give it a programming try. Grab-a-key(TM)

yves dot goulnik at roche dot com

"What's Wrong With This Picture?
http://raj.phangureh.com/picture.html"

Oh.....that was so WRONG!

Damn it man! You broke my streak of never pissing myself with that site!
-Bosco

Graffiti should be used in testing for driver's licenses. If anyone cannot learn Graffiti in a half an hour, he/she is certainly not intelligent enough to operate a motor vehicle, raise children, or eat a happy meal.

About Fitaly Stamp not being able to be backlight. That is true about Fitaly Stamp but not so with Fitaly 2.0. Fitaly 2.0 is on-screen and replaces the normal on-screen keyboard. I personally use Fitaly 2.0 for just that reason. I love it and am up to 30 WPM, wayyy over what I could do with graffiti. I just can't wait for Fitaly 3.0 for Palm OS 5!!

Um, no, Dvorak was *less* efficient, the only tests that showed it to be more efficient was the inventor's one, no one was able to duplicate his results.

that 99.99999999999999999% of the keyboards you are going to run across in your movement from office to office are QWERTY style. No matter how good the new standard is, it is far more annoying to have to switch typing modes everytime you sit down at a different keyboard.

PDAs are different. I can't remember the last time that I let someone else use my Vx. Therefore there is plenty of room for all sorts of standards and styles of input on PDAs. Less recognized or adopted standards will have less support from vendors, but anything can be built if you are willing to pay for it. It doesn't make any sense to tell someone that your input style is better then what they use if they don't want to change, and you don't have to use their PDA.

Our problem is that industry would like to have as few different versions as possible. And would like to minimize any licensing required to manufacture someone else's design. From a manufacturing and marketing view, this makes lots of sense, because it keeps prices down.

One option might be to actually split the PDA into two destinct systems.

The screen/cpu/ram section, and an input section. By creating a standard for each, you might be able to choose the screen and power you want, and then connect it to the input style that you want.

If done right (which hasn't happened yet in the Palm world), different companies would pick up different styles of input. I might love a Palm graffiti area, but want the power and screen of a Sony, or Handera.

The obvious problem is then every PDA looks like a Frankenstien beast. Function over form?

Mike
miknny@yahoo.com

FYI: the QWERTY keyboard layout was not designed to slow down speeders using the Dvorak layout.

For more information, check out this URL:
http://web.mit.edu/jcb/www/Dvorak/

The qwerty keyboard was designed specificaly to slow down typists. Back in the days of keys making swinging bars with letters on them hitting the paper, if you hit the keys too quickly two bars would come up at the same time and get stuck. So the qwerty keyboard was designed to slow typists down a little by breaking up where the common use letters were and to spread out those common letters so that there was a bigger pause between them so that the bars would not get stuck.

Then, they also built in a little "marketing trick" in that you could very quickly type out "type writer" on the top line without the bars gettin stuck.

um...................................................................................................................................................................................................................hi?

I'd have to agree that graffiti is best for short entries and navigation. I've been using palms for 3 or 4 years and have never found the popup keyboard very useful. However, I also have a Motorola 2-way pager that has a very small thumb keyboard. I love this keyboard and many times I have wished I had one like it for my TRGPRGO. I can type with my thumbs faster and more accurately than I can use Graffiti. I think a good thumboard would replace graffiti for me, even though I've used it for years.

Yeah, when I want to write emails or do some serious planning, I whip out my Palm fold-a-way keyboard. However, most of my data entry takes place using the graffiti area. I don't want to poke out a To-do list item with my stylus or punch it out on a tiny keyboard. I sure hope that Palm OS doesn't have to get rid of a big part of what made them sucessful in the first place!

I dunno about keyboards, but I will say that the editorial described me to a T before I finally broke down and got a PDA. I was in the camp of, there's no damn way I'm going to learn a new language just to use a PDA. And I'm a pretty hardcore techie. Just imagine how non-techies feel? A keyboard would have been more appealing to me before I started, though not anymore.

These days with the Clies and other PDAs as cool as they are I can be playing around with it, and have completely non-techie people be completely blown away. They're amazed by what I can do. It's a photo album. It's a multilingual dictionary. It's a newpaper. It's a graphing calculator. It's an organizer. I can tell they're starting to get interested, maybe even considering getting one for themself. They ask to try it out. While they're trying it out and attempt to write something, I explain that it doesn't actually take written English, but instead uses a bunch of symbols that are very similar to English characters. And instantly all interest disappears. It goes from amazing/useful new addition to life to stupid nerd gadget in the space of time that it takes me to explain Graffiti.

Just as the article stated, most people simply are NOT willing to learn a new system of writing, no matter how simple it may be, to use a PDA. This is simply a case of the manufacturer dicatating to people what they want, and not the reverse. Sure, Graffiti might be faster than true English writing - but there are also a million apps better than the ones that come with Palms. The simple fact of the matter is, people don't need all the bells and whistles, for 90% of the population simple is good enough. Leave the Graffiti for hardcore techies who just need to have the extra 5 WPM to download as a 3rd party optimization.....I'm curious what the rationale is for breaking the Zen of Palm on this one.

>most people simply are NOT willing to learn a new system of writing

Do not trust your intuition on this. Palm and Handspring have run focus groups and found out that around half of the populace were willing and had no problems learning Graffiti. About half the people do not like tiny keyboards. About half do. The market is plenty big enough for both.

I never give a thought of using keyboard with Palm. Even after I bought a GoType for my Palm Vx at Staple which I had no intentions of shopping any Palm accessory for that visit. 2 Years past, the keyboard is still in un-wrapped box. That's how I am so used to of the Graffiti.

Treo 180 changed my way of using the Palm. I have to admit I use the address book as phone book most out of the Palm. Right now I use the keyboard whenever I can to jog down my daily journal, idea log, and project controls... with my two thumbs (I am a fast typer with the regular keyboard).

"Do not trust your intuition on this. Palm and Handspring have run focus groups and found out that around half of the populace were willing and had no problems learning Graffiti. About half the people do not like tiny keyboards. About half do. The market is plenty big enough for both."

I'm sure the focus groups were run on people who were actually interested in using Palm devices. I'm speaking of the large majority of the population that doesn't have a Palm, and until they're wowed by something, have no intention of getting a Palm. And not from my intuition, but from my experience the moment they learn about Graffiti, that's it, they're no longer interested. I really do think that the willingness to learn a new language just for your little computer is a geek thing.

Mikeliu is right.

No, mikeliu is NOT right.

In fact, everyday average people (as opposed to the theoretical uber-geek described in above posts) do learn a new skill "just for their little computers": typing.

The preponderance of keyboards proves that learning a new skill does not necessarily become a barrier to the average consumer buying into a product. The idea that typing is a learned skill, believe it or not, actually was a primary kernel at the core of Graffiti's invention.

When conceiving the idea of Graffiti, Jeff Hawkins' concluded that handwriting recognition software, such as that available on the Apple Newton at the time, was a failure because it is more difficult to teach a computer to learn to write than it was to teach a person how to write.

So Graffiti was designed to allow the following:

(1) text entry that was more accurate and thus faster and more efficient than any handwriting recognition software, and
(2) the capability to enter text into an attractively small device that could easily fit into a pocket.

This clearly fits into the Zen of Palm (a.k.a. simplicity and immediacy).

For more information on the conception of Graffiti and the other aspects of the history of Palm, I highly recommend Andrea Butter's book Piloting Palm. You can find out more about it at http://www.pilotingpalm.com.

Excellent commentary. Thumboards are not easier, although they may appear easier. Does that mean they will sell better? Perhaps, but I hope not.

The original concept was a small, portable "pen computer." It seems ridiculous to abandon this in favor of devices that appear less intimidating to the average Joe.

What will happen after 5-8 years of thumbboard prevalence? Manufacturers will decide that what people really want is handwriting input and thumbboard will start disappearing. So it seems to me that this thumbboard trend is really shortsighted. It's geared toward selling, not satisfying.

It seems to me that the simplest solution isn't thumbboards, but some sort of standard handwriting input method. When I used a PPC, I found their Letter Recognizer to be as quick as Graffiti yet it had virtually no learning curve and no intimdation factor. Besides, this method won't infringe on Xerox's bloody patent.

>The original concept was a small, portable "pen >computer." It seems ridiculous to abandon this in >favor of devices that appear less intimidating to the >average Joe.

Well said. A pda without Graffiti (or something similar) is of no use to me. And as for a learming curve, well, someone who can't be fairly proficient after a day's use is probably someone who also has a problem applying a pencil to paper as well (or, more likely, someone who is not all that interested in using a pda in the first place).

Actually I have a hard time at making myself understanable in pen and paper but I'm really good at grafitty

-Dagger
----
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -- Mark Twain

Yes, that's part of the beauty of it--graffiti appeals to the inner anal-retentive me: no matter how sloppy my writing is, it looks so neat and clean on the PDA. :)

The early Newton MessagePads' handwriting recognition was so-so at best and Apple got slaughtered in the media for it.

Each generation of Newtons had better and better handwriting recognition. The final ones (the 2000 & 2100) were very, very good and it's sad that there's nothing even close for the Palm OS even though 5 more years have passed.

* Write anywhere on the screen.

* Word-level or letter-level recognition.

* Cursive, printer, or mixed.

* If it guessed the wrong word, double-tap the word to pop up a list of alternate possibilities, sorted by likelihood.

* The handheld learned YOUR writing style over time and thus automatically improved you did not have to learn special ways of writing.

* And more.

I wonder if moving away from defined "unistroke" characters would resolve the stupid Xerox patent issue. I believe it would, especially since non-unistroke digital input predated the patent (i.e., the Newton handwriting recognition system subsequently purchased by Microsoft).

Incidentally, I use both Graffiti and the Palm Keyboard. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I can't imagine a system in which there is not handwriting recognition at all. I think Sharp is attempting to go that route with the Zaurus. We'll have to wait and see if they are successful.

My favorite solutions so far are those developed by Handera and Sony, although I don't own either the HE330 or the Sony NR-70. I hope this type of system is perfected in the future and widely adopted. I tried thumb boards. Doesn't work for me. I'm too "fat fingered." I played with a thumb board Treo the other day. Absolutely not, no way. Nice idea, just not for me.

JBH

> I wonder if moving away from defined "unistroke" characters

Even though that might be enough for the courts, in reality I do not see what the difference would be. Some graffiti characters are not unistroke (though most are, but the characters still mostly aren't the same anyhow), and lots of character sets have unistroke characters.

Looking at this from another perspective, if we all started writing in graffiti on paper could Xerox sue the paper companies? or the pen/pencil companies? Obviously no (unless they had patents on pens/paper/paper technologies). To me, clearly the patent needs to be in the technology of how you actually recognize the characters, not what the characters themselves are. I do not get the impression that is what Xerox's patent is, and that is why I think it will fail. Now if they had this great, special method of recognizing unistroke characters and Palm was using it, they might have something.

>>Now if they had this great, special method of recognizing unistroke characters and Palm was using it, they might have something.<<

But I think that is exactly what the Xerox patent covers. I'm sure the claims they made in the patent application cover the gamut from very broad to very specific. I haven't read the entire patent application myself to see the claims and the subsequent patent award. However, the one claim that is talked about he most is the claim that Xerox was the first in invent a system of software interpretation of unistroke characters.

I think Xerox went with the "unistroke" concept to get around prior software applications, such as the software used on the Newton. The law is (in very general terms) that if something was already being sold on the market long before you try to patent the same thing, the subsequent patent for this thing is easily subject to challenge. The Newton allowed you to pick what types of strokes you wanted to use to represent different letters, whereas the Xerox patent and Graffiti use standard unistroke character sets, although as you mention some characters are completed with more than one stroke. That doesn't really matter if the majority of the characters violate the patent.

So, back to my original thought. I wonder if using a trainable system of handwriting recognition would get around the problem. For instance, you can purchase blank/recordable cassette tapes anywhere today. This is true even though you are capable of using the blank tape to commit copyright violations. The music industry challenged such sales in the past, and the courts ruled that it is permissible to sell such a device that could potentially be used to commit copyright infringement as long as you don't actively participate in wrongful conduct. Note that this is where Napster went wrong. There was a recent challege to the KaZaa music trading system in I think a Dutch court recently. That court held the KaZaa system was not a violation of copyright because the company only distributed software that was capable of being used to commit copyright violations. However, the company did not do anything to actively participate in that process -- the music exchange was P2P, and the data was not stored on the KaZaa server.

So, same concept. Maybe Palm converts to a trainable system of Graffiti to avoid the Xerox issue altogether???

Any thoughts from other lawyers out there?

JBH

Even in Xerox wins the case, the licensing fee is an easy one to solve. The person who buys the Palm could elect to:
1) use an alternate "free" entry method, or
2) if the really like grafitti, pay Xerox the $5 (or whatever) for a license to use the feature, enter their registration code, and off they go.

The most important thing is that the end user have the power of choice.

> the courts ruled that it is permissible to sell such a
> device that could potentially be used to commit
> copyright infringement as long as you don't actively
> participate in wrongful conduct

Absolutely, otherwise Xerox wouldn't be selling copiers. :)

> Absolutely, otherwise Xerox wouldn't be selling copiers. :)

Sorry, following up on my less serious comment, you are talking about copyright, not patents, very different. Even if there was a trainable system, there would still have to be some recogntion method. If Xerox's patent is actually on a/the recognition method (which I really do not think is true) then you are right back to square one. Plus others might have patents on the training methods and it would just get more ugly. If Xerox really had this novel method of recognizing unistroke characters, I think they would be suing a lot more companies than just Palm. Instead their claim seems to be mostly based on the similarity (or lack of in my opinion) of their unistroke characters to graffiti.

Ugh, enough on this from me anyhow. Software patents should be should not be valid anyhow (at least not for more than a very limited time), but that is a whole other story.

The Xerox case is the worst case in technology development - just imagine the following:

If tomorrow I filed a patent that singing @ 60 mHz, any singer who tried to sing @ 60 mHz should pay me a loyalty fee because simply I filed the patent.

Any patent case, especially technology, cannot be cased just based on simple concepts. If I filed a patent for a specific programming algorithum, anyone who uses a similar algorithum should give me the royalty fee, even though the source code are entirely different. If this is the case, I will be a millionaire.

The same applied for the Unistroke. The concept/alogorithum may be similar, but the symbols (source code) are entirely different. Therefore, the court is trying to prevent people from thinking, instead of stealing. It is because the simplest alogrithum for one guy to input a letter is a simple stroke. Anyways, this is more complicate than it sounds.

Patents are BS, so I don't think one can say with any certainty based on the stupidity of Xerox's case that Xerox will lose.

ROTFL!!

cyruski!

Even the handwriting recognition on the old Apple Newtons was acceptable (I used it and I've always thought it was better than Graffiti). Then there's Jot, that is also supposed to be an improvement (never used it so I can't comment). Given the improvement in processors and the fact that the software definitely exists, I agree. I think it's time for a Graffiti upgrade -- something a little more intuitive maybe even something that could handle more than one letter at a time!

I sent an email to the Calligrapher folks a few weeks ago, the response said that current licensing agreements didn't allow them to make a version for PalmOS. That struck me as pretty odd, unless MS has bought a big chunk of the company and/or licensed the technology on an exclusive basis for their handhelds.

Microsoft did license the Calligrapher HWR engine to create Transcriber, so they definitely have their hands in Calligrapher. I'm guessing in return for paying big bucks to put Transcriber on every Pocket PC, that some agreements were signed to make Calligrapher/Transcriber exclusive to WinCE devices. Of course, at that time that deal was struck Palm's were stuck on 8-16MHz processor so there was little thought of a PalmOS version.

If there is HWR on the new Palms, it won't be Calligrapher, I asked Phatware the same thing and got the very direct response that unless Microsoft buys out the PalmOS, there will NEVER be a PalmOS version of Calligrapher (and they DID use the word NEVER)

That has to be the worst news of the year (it also kills one of my Predictions).

Instead of Palm Inc drooling over their new -- now, phantom -- office building, they should have been planning for their future and *purchasing* Calligrapher.

Jot stinks. I don't like ART's HWR, either.

To that other poster, re: Newton. The last version of Newton's HWR was based on *Calligrapher's* core, which is why it was so damned good.

The last version of the Newton's handwriting recognition was wonderful. I wrote in my own handwriting as fast as I could and didn't need to correct it much. Even though I find Graffiti adequate, it represents a limitation of the technology Palm was using, not and improvement. The handwriting recognition on the PocketPCs is better than the Newton. MS would publicize it more if it hadn't been for the premature release of HRW on the Newton gave it a bad rep that it is still getting over. But, it is way better than graffiti. By the way, it was also extended to drawing programs that recognized primitives like circles and rectangles and smoothed them for you. If palm just caught up to the Newton, it would be a much easier thing to use.

No offense, but most people will be able to reach 20 WPM on Fitaly within 10 minutes. For me, 40 was the tricky level to get, and then 50. I don't care to practice anymore, or I'm POSITIVE I could hit 60.

It's just one of those things where if you use it consistently enough, your eyes can "search" for hard to find letters while you're in the process of typing the previous letter.

Fitaly is superior to anything out there in terms of speed. What most people don't understand is that it is also VASTLY more user-friendly than QWERTY keyboard alternatives.

I like the Fitaly layout, but didn't feel like paying $40 for Fitaly stamp. There's a freeware program on PalmGear which allows you to basically make your own "stick-on" keyboard similar to Fitaly stamp or Silkyboard, it's called Quicktype. Takes a little extra effort to create the onscreen keyboard, but it works just fine. I customized mine so that it is almost (but not quite) identical to the Fitaly keyboard. Works great. For those who've tried Quicktype and didn't like it, try buying post-it-note clear tape (not post-it notes)at OfficeMax or OfficeDepot for printing the keyboard on, then cover that with clear mailing tape and cutting to size. Mine's lasted over a year without changing.

Actually, I've always wondered: what's a good material that you can print the keyboard layout on? the post it tape doesn't work too well with my inkjet...

K. Tran

Uh....when you purchase FITALY Stamp, they send you high quality overlays that fit different Palm models.

They should last quite a while.

You must be trying to use the demo. I would just print it on paper and tape it on, unless that's too "ghetto" for ya.

I use a post-it note and a laser printer.. without clear tape on top mine lasts about a month

you can see here how my Vx looks with a yellow fitaly-post-it

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/cberganza

c_Blue

which is on their emerging technologies site at:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V27512DA

I apologize for the long link - I know we're supposed to use a shortcut site but I didn't know how.

They will send you the sticker and were supposed to put the PDF on the web site too...

Nah....IBM's website says ATOMIK promises, "potentially" 40 wpm.

I was tapping at 35 wpm within an hour on Fitaly.

I'm at about 53 now. That's nearly as fast as I type on a QWERTY keyboard, which is about 62 WPM no mistakes.

ATOMIK has potential, but it's got some annoying things about it. The first and foremost is the need to hit a separate shift key to get capital letters. This can be especially annoying if one is trying to capitalise a letter far away from said shift key.

I've used Fitaly (onscreen, no stamp) and Quicktype (I currently use this), and I love the fact that both were more or less transparent, and you could use graffitti at the same time. You have to be more careful, but it's quite doable. Atomik does not allow for the use of graffitti at all.

rgds,

K. Tran

I'd prefer a m500 (monochrome) with a bigger screen WITHOUT any keyboard.

Thanks.

---
News Editor

I was reading the latest issue of Mobile Computing magazine and they reveiewed the Palm i705. A NEGATIVE in the review's bullet points was that the unit didn't have a built-in keyboard.

First, that's not actually true, all Palm's have the on screen keyboard.

Second, Palm rolled-out a thumbtype keyboard with the units for anyone that wants one. It's an add-on rather than an in-the-box accessory, but, it is clearly available.

I like having options. In the field, I tend to use graffiti more than anything. I have a Mini Keyboard with me usually, but, since it doesn't fit on the unit in my belt clip case, it's a little bit of a pain to implement on the fly.

When I'm palnning ahead with respect to note taking or answering emails, I clip my Mini Keyboard on and use it.

Finally, when I'm stationary and know I'll be taking notes or typing quite a bit, AND I have a solid surface, I whip out my Stowaway and mount my i705 on it.

Bottom line, if graffiti were to be phased out of Palm units -- for whatever reason -- I would try to make do with the last possible unit that had graffiti rather than go without. Graffiti has become a major part of my life and I'm not inclined to want to do with out it.

Mike Lohsl
Palm & ACT! Advisor

www.successwizard.com

I agree... the whole thing I like about the Palm platform and all the compatibles is... choice! Use what you like and/or feel comfortable with.

I even used Graffiti on my Newton.

I look forward to purchasing the Colour Treo with the keyboard version, and install Recoecho again and have Best of Both Worlds. What's the problem?

to the poster who was going to buy the coor Treo, I'd like to know what your experience is with keyboard vs graffitti?

You CAN write an "X" in Graffiti without lifting the stylus. Just make the "shortcut" symbol oriented 90 degrees counterclockwise. Turn it another 90 degrees and you produce a "Y" and another 90 and you have a "K."

Sorry... That's 90 degrees CLOCKwise.

BUT that ignores the vast improvements which have been made to the handhelds, keyboards etc since then.

as people do more and more with their handheld, Graffiti's usefulness becomes an issue. Heck, if Graffiti was better then a keyboard wouldn't we be seeing it on desktop machines?

Graffiti is wonderful for entering a bit of information, it has very high speed-usability. From the time I take the palm out of my pocket, turn it on, open a contact and jot a name, i would still be setting up the keyboard on the desk or clipping it to the bottom of the palm. But, if i have to write a proposal on a time delay system for a dilution drain on acid tanks. Setting up the keyboard will pay off.

Keyboards are useful if the user is going to be "doing more" on the palm, with tasks that have heavy text entry. But a keyboard does not add ANYTHING to checking an appointment or setting an alarm (unless you are writing a long note to go with that alarm)

Personally, I would choose a palm with Graffiti over a keyboard built in.

nategall says "blah!"

The keyboards on the old WinCE machines and their contemporaries are ergonomically different that RIM-styled thumboards.

RIM keyboards, needless to say, were designed for thumbs rather than fingers. Unlike the older keyboards, the keys are non-contiguous, which prevents the accidentally hitting adjacent keys.

The more the handheld is designed for stylus-free operation, the more fluid the input. The Treo and especially the Blackberry minimize or even eliminate the need to pull out a stylus by navigating via keys and a jog wheel.

I do prefer the handwriting agnostic character recognition of Graffiti to the allegedly "more natural" HRW schemes of Transcriber and the like. And Graffiti was clearly superior to the keyboards released a decade ago. But the state of the art has shifted.

Get a pack of WriteRights. They're thin plastic sheets that go on your Visor's screen, including the Graffiti area. That should give you the feeling you're looking for. I got some as a Christmas gift, and not only do they protect the glass from getting scratched, they make for a better surface to write on.

I know you must of heard this before, but it works. Try using tape over the graffiti area, or place a thin ammount of oil over the screen and use a napkin to rub it in. Your stylus will glide through, and you wont have to think about scratching up your screen.

http://pdan.has.it

Sorry to hear you feel threatened by this. Personally, I think anything that lets me (accurately) input information to my handheld faster is a *good* thing. That being said, have you seen the messages that come across the phones? It makes AOL-speak look like a master's thesis. :)

I love T9 on my phone but hate it on my Palm.

cyruski!

QUOTE:
"I absolutely would never want a key board only device. In fact I am amazed some people might
want this."

I have to agree to an extent. But remember that's there choice, they know what is best for them. I think it's great to have a keyboard if you are not always on the go. As for me, I don't have time to sit down and lay the keyboard to type information, but why not? It will save me lots of time if I wrote an article or something. BUT, I myself, personally think graffiti is the way to go. And the onscreen keyboard is not too bad its self (get keyboard hack). Graffiti is here to stay.

http://pdan.has.it

It's called gesture typing.

I like Newton OS :)

ROTFL!

cyruski!

>I looks to me like somebody's just trying to increase >their web site hit count.

I'm inclined to agree. Looks like it's working, though.

> The Xerox lawsuit? It's groundless, and will never impact on Palm's business.
> It will most likely be thrown out of court.

Hate to break it to you but it has *already* affected Palm's business. Palm already lost the first case and it is in appeal. The day they lost the court case, their stock price took a hit it hasn't recovered from yet. I agree that Xerox's case is bogus but since when has that had any affect on the court systyem? Turns out your ignorant opinions don't mean squat.

> I looks to me like somebody's just trying to increase their web site hit count.

Oh my god! Your right. How dare they expess their opinions? Especially ones you don't agree with becusae anyone who holds any opinioon different from yours is clearly a crazy moron out to destroy all we hold dear. They should be torn into little bitty pieces and buried alive!! Down with the free expession of ideas!!

Original poster = serious jerkoff.

Get a life dude. Ed is entitled to state his opinion on his website. And brush up on IP law you f***ing moron. However doubtful it may be in your case, you just might learn something about how business is done in this country and stop spouting your puerile, ignorant BS.

Pot...kettle...black.

All of you.

How amazingly sage. You should have a regular spot on Crossfire.

> I looks to me like somebody's just trying to increase their web site hit count.

Looks to me like someone who runs a rival handheld website (PDABuzz maybe?) pissed off at how successful PIC is.

Why is it that people respond to dissenting opinions by citing the RIGHT of the original person to state his opinion? For the record, it is possible to disagree, as this poster did, and still support Ed's right to say whatever he wants. In fact, if you read the comment, the poster's concern seems to be how others blindly accepted Ed's comments as true in other words how the mere existance of an editorial can establish a particular view, even though that point of view may not be valid. That others attack the original poster instead of arguing the merits of the issue he raised is telling. Are you so sure he's actually wrong?

> For the record, it is possible to disagree, as this poster did, and still
> support Ed's right to say whatever he wants.

That's not what the orignial poster did at all. Much of his post, especially the last line, was a clear attack on Ed's right to give his opinion.

Probably one of the fastest Graffiti runs in a con