Comments on: Editorial: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner

"Steve Bush from Brighthand is the one WHO shed the light"

Thanks..

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News Editor

What a brilliant comment. So you saw a typo in an exceptionally and informative article and home in on the typo. Thanks for your contribution.

Uhm, he just pointed out the typo. He didn't call into question any part of the article because of the typo as you might be implying...

The guy making the comment about the typo was likely making the point that typos and poor grammar distract the reader from the main thesis of the article. It's like trying to read a book wearing scratched glasses. In these days of spelling and grammar checkers, there's really no excuse for not providing an article with few or no errors - that's a general comment; I'm not picking on the author of this particular story.

Go Palm/Apple/Linux!

LOL! It's an interesting editorial/perspective all right, but a GUARANTEED topic to start a religious war. Any bets on how many posts this "article" will generate by the end of the week? :-)

Just been reading this as I hadn't noticed the editorial before, so come to it rather late.

Just a word of warning for anyone else coming to this a few moths late: DO NOT bother reading any of the posts below. For some reason a bunch of PPC users have been let out of the asylum for a day trip and have filled up the comments board. They seem really angry about something....

Personally, I think PPC is ****e so won't buy one. The rest of you can do what you want...

FBN

This is great! Where can I buy PDA with OS 5.0?

> This is great! Where can I buy PDA with OS 5.0?

You can buy a Sony Clie right now and it will have all the same features as any OS 5.0 device released this year. (hi-res, mp3, multi-media)

"You can buy a Sony Clie right now and it will have all the same features as any OS 5.0 device released this year. (hi-res, mp3, multi-media)"

I keep reading this statement by NR owners, and yet I see no reason to believe it. The NR launcher doesn't even have the OS 5 icons on it. The OS 5 version of the NR may have a better battery life, etc. Only time will tell.

But how many software developers will continue to improve their products to run more effectively on an OS4 machine?

Waiting for OS5 may make sense in terms of better software options down the road. Or is it so far down the road that we should wait for OS6? Appreciate any well informed posts on this topic.

Thanks, Robrecht

>>>>>>>>>
From Ed:

Microsoft doesn't win at everything it does.

It's a little early to say but have you been paying attention to how poorly the Xbox is selling?
>>>>>>>>>

Interesting that you mention the XBox. The X-Box is actually one example of a superior product not selling well. How interesting that M$ produced it, because usually with M$ products it is the exact opposite: a non-superior product dominating the market.

Anyway, I will contend your original point that M$ will not automatically own the PDA market just because they are M$.

I'm hoping that someone more experienced with PPC than I can provide a straight response on this.

I've got a new Toshiba e570 PPC (a gift) and had a loaner iPAQ H3875 for a month before that. I've spent a number of hours surfing the Net looking for some really compelling applications that show off this (supposedly) state-of-the-art hardware but have little to show for my efforts.

So please, point me to a killer app or two?

- I found a version of AutoCAD but frankly, it was relatively useless on a 320x240 screen (and at a cost of $200....?!)

- Pocket Streets looks nice, but the PPC2002 version is no longer free (and I'm uncomfortable paying for a MS desktop mapping software program that has no trial version.)

- Windows Media Player/Pocket TV/DivX are OK for showing off movie trailers and other little video demos but the frame rates aren't good enough for extended viewing, and you need very large storage cards to fit a TV program or movie on it. So, what do you use this feature for?

- MS Reader looks pretty good, but I'm REQUIRED to get an MS Passport account to use it? Please tell me there is some way around this! I don't want a Passport account! (MS hasn't exactly earned my trust...)

Oh, and I'd LOVE help with this: I've got the Palm/Toshiba Bluetooth SDIO card. Works great on a Palm m505. How do I get it running on the e570? I can't find driver files for PPC anywhere on Toshiba's support site or on Microsoft's?

The X box may be superior in terms of processor speed, but it is a 32 bit machine.

Game Cube, Play Station 2 and even the late Dreamcast are 128 bit machines. In this regard the Xbox is in the same boat as PPC.

>>>>>>>>
The X box may be superior in terms of processor speed, but it is a 32 bit machine.

Game Cube, Play Station 2 and even the late Dreamcast are 128 bit machines. In this regard the Xbox is in the same boat as PPC.
>>>>>>>>>

The fact that the X-Box is 32-bit means nothing. The Dreamcast is 128-bit yet the X-Box is superior to it in every respect (graphics, internal HD, etc.). I would also say that the X-Box is superior to the PS2 in terms of technical capability. So the number of bits doesn't make the machine.

Thus it is still true that the X-Box is a superior machine that does not sell well. This is what makes it different than the PocketPC, which is an inferior (IMO, PPC users may disagree) platform that DOESN'T sell well.

superior hardware vs superior coders-sometimes the coders win. They don't take the hardware for granted and write the most efficient code possible. I can only imagine what Ardiri and Blue Nomad could come up with on a PalmOS 5 device with 128 megs, 400 mhz and a mediaq mq 1168.

More impressive specs but it's not selling near the numbers it needs to - it's the DreamCast for this decade. They got all of the early-adopter, I'll-buy-anything-MicroSoft hardcore gamers right after launch but are now falling further and further behind the competition sales-wise.

At the recent E3 (the big gaming conference/expo), the general vibe was that Xbox is already an also-ran. MS is losing a lot of money on each console sold and is not getting the required licensing revenue from their games to make it up.

While we're talking about losers that MS has backed, what's happening with MS AutoPC? MS Ultimate TV? MS "Stinger" Smartphone (is anyone besides Sendo going to make these?)?

I'm sorry but A Console Game Will never...EVER Be as good as a game on a Desktop

Real quick, all the new consoles are 32 bit. At least if you measure it by the more common measure on PC Chips of the address bus. Bits mean nothing, above 16 there isnt too much of a concern in a console(oh no, it can only handle a max of 4 gigs of memory!). It's all about the other stuff.

Number battles do nothing. The NES was under 1mhz, the SNES was 3.97mhz yet seemingly outperformed functions of a 100mhz desktop pc. XBox is running numbers in a Windows world where everything is ineffecient. Nintendo custom designed their chips and stripped everything out that they could. In the end the 4 systems, while obvious winners exist in graphics, by sheer brute force, it's negligible, just like between the Genesis and SNES, and in the end, rests in how fun the games are. (And yes, I am the same person who posted about the PSX's history above.)
Graphics and power are a gimmick to be played out. Jaguar, 3DO, Neo-Geo, Game Gear and Lynx all out-shown their competitors, but couldn't hold a candle to gameplay. I doubt I'll have any arguments against me saying Nintendo makes the best games in the world.(Arguable, but they ARE in the top 3, NO?) I don't need violence, blood, cussing in music or highly-detailed facial and chest hair on fighters. I want something my friends and I can pick up and play and HAVE FUN. If you can't stand the "kiddie" appeal(And for christsake's, find a new word, too.) then take a look at what you are doing in the first place. Holding a bent box, pressing buttons to make fake people beat each other up. How is that not "kiddie" and "immature?" *sigh* I'm ranting, but I hope someone will see my side of this without dissecting every thought.
XBox has it in numbers, but not in quality.

XBOX may have the upper hand as far as hardware is concerned, but its current software based still leaves much to be desired. THAT is why the machine is dead-last in every market.

"I'm sorry but A Console Game Will never...EVER Be as good as a game on a Desktop"

I'm sorry but A Desktop Game Will never...EVER Be as good as a game on a Console.

The Xbox is aimed at a more 'adult' 20-30something market and has a smaller potential than say the Game Cube. Have you seen the game cube games? Strictly kids stuff. The reason this is becoming succesful is that school kids buy them because they are cheap and their friends also have the same. Xbox is not an attractive product to school kids. That's it.

Sorry to contradict you but the Game cube is not aimed at young people as you say.

Resident Evil (considered to be the most violent console game) is now a Game Cube exclusive (go to gamespot.com or ign.com for the press release). And the already released Resident Evil remake for the game cube looks more gory than any PSX2 or Xbox game today.

Also many gory games are now comming for the game cube including Turok 3, Mortal Kombat, etc.

Guys, this is a handheld site. This conversation about game consoles, while maybe interesting, is totally off topic.

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News Editor

Resident Evil is GORY not VIOLENT. THAT title would go to the GTA series, on the Palm, Game Boy, PC, PSX and PS2. Only recently acknowledged since GTA3 added new views in addition to the top-down view of the others.

: Guys, this is a handheld site. This conversation about
: game consoles, while maybe interesting, is totally off
: topic.

Ed

And you were worried about car analogy off-topicness! As soon as you commented on the XBox, I was sure to see a long, LONG thread to follow.. heheh.. :)

But I agree, it is interesting, but this is definitely not the place to discuss it.


Jim

>Very well put. This article basically sums up
>everything that I have been posting in the other >discussion boards. PPC buyers now have no argument as >to what their handheld can do that is better than the >Palms. That tagline is better than anything Microsoft >has ever had.
>Spoken like a true hero, Ed.
>Almost as good and twice as big.

>-Bosco

There are things that PPC will still do better. For example, OS 5 will not allow for native file extensions.

being one of the biggest electronic conglomerate in the planet with the enginenering dept. apparently help.

They left out CF media

If Toshiba did such an incredible feast of downzising the PPC and supersizing its battery life, just imagine what would they could have done if they had picked Palm OS...

Maybe .3 inch thin handhelds with 15+ hours batteries.

Sorry, the Palm OS doesn't change the laws of physics and permit a unit so thin to run that long. If it could, then the T-615 could run longer than 3 hours at high bright.

Anyone who likes the PPC is a troll!

Nonsense.

A general and false statement like that is "trolling".

hahaha troll

hahaha "troll"

Microsoft couldn't kill an OS that got about 80% of the handheld market so easily! :-)

Microsoft beat Apple because Windows PCs were less expensive. The hardware requirements for Windows were significantly less than those of a Mac. Windows was less functional but price won out.

But now the shoe is on the other foot. Palm OS handhelds have less hardware requirements and therefore their prices are lower. I expect history to repeat itself.

Several recent studies have shown that it is Palm who dominates enterprise sales. Gartner Group recently calculated that in 2001, Palm OS licensees accounted for more than 50% of handhelds sold to large companies and government organizations worldwide, compared to 32% for Pocket PC licensees, 1% for Symbian, and 16% for other operating systems.

Microsoft doesn't win at everything it does.

A few years ago, Bill Gates decided that too much money was going to Adobe so he put out a rival to PhotoShop. It died so badly I can't even remember its name.

MSN is still way behind AOL.

It's a little early to say but have you been paying attention to how poorly the Xbox is selling?

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News Editor

X-Box has dropped price in the Uk recently and is still being outsold by PS2 and GC. In Japan, the dead Dreamcast is still outselling the X-Box (ironically Dreamcast runs on WinCE - no wonder its so slow and crashes alot).

The problem isn't Microsoft's lack of innovation - the problem is this - Microsoft does not care whether it will lose round one or round 50. They have the resouce to lose money and they do not care. They were willing to give away IE just to kill Netscape - it just show how much money they can give away.

This is a different ballgame for M$. When Microsoft took on Netscape, there was very little mindshare about what the Internet WAS.. much less which BROWSER you should use.

This is different. Palm is ingrained as the market leader. The average joe on the street sees a PDA and goes "Is that one of those Palm Pilots?"

That type of Mindshare is exactly what Microsoft is used to leveraging to its advantage. It'll be interesting to see what it can do to overcome its second-player role in a market that has already emerged? My guess would be.. that it has to create a better product. I'm not sure it can.

"# It's a little early to say but have you been paying attention to how poorly the Xbox is selling?"

A little off-topic, but it's interesting that you mention this. I work at a small private Asian advertising agency and I just heard rumblings today that XBox sales are in a serious slump and it needs more sales. So, it's attempting to tap more into the Asian market since the American public is not responding as well as Microsoft had hoped.

Since most of the people at my workplace know I'm a console gaming fanatic with some recent consoles (i.e. PS2, GCN, GBA, etc.) and not-so-recent consoles (i.e. N64, DC, PSX, SNES, NES, etc.) under my belt, they've been asking me how the XBox gaming scene is to get a feel for the market. What else can I say? It's great hardware (sans bulky controllers and huge form factor), but the software doesn't appeal to me.

Just because it works for the PC, doesn't mean it works for everything else. Apparently, that applies towards console gaming too. I don't want PC games on my console. Give me more originality and substance, and maybe I'll get an XBox. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. YMMV.

With the OQO -- a handheld running Windows XP -- coming out later this year, I think PocketPC will have neither the high nor the low end. People who want simple but customizable will stick with PalmOS. People who want handheld computers will spend a couple hundred dollars more and get a real computer, not PPC crippleware.

now why would anyone squish XP into a handheld? That's even worse than pocketpc

>>This is a different ballgame for M$. When Microsoft took on Netscape, there was very little mindshare about what the Internet WAS.. much less which BROWSER you should use.

Yep. When the press started to go ga-ga when 'PocketPC' came out, i encountered so many people who just assumed microsoft was going to beat out Palm because they were so powerful and - after all - they beat out Netscape and would do the same here. This is lazy analysis. The reality is that there are HUGE differences between the MS vs Palm scerario and MS vs Netscape:

1 - Netscape users didn't invest $500 in their browser the way Palm users did in there PDA.

2 - IE was free to download. Last time i checked, nobody in Redmond had plans to lose THAT MUCH MONEY on such an approach here!

3 - IE runs all the same 'software' (webpages) that netscape did. Palm support - as most here know - is huge, with something like 15,000 apps available. PPC still only has a few thousand apps at best.

4 - IE's interface is basically the same as Netscapes. PPC is quite different (and as mentioned above, unintuitive) from Palms.

The proof is there: WinCE has been out for 5(!) years and they only have 15% of overall market. Sony - which has been in the biz for only a couple of yrs - has been flamed on PIC for achieving the same.

If this were anyother company in the world they would have dropped the platform by now. But its MS - they'll pour hundreds of nmillions into this until they realize there mistake (maybe they'll just keeping flush cash down the toilet forever?).

Microsoft is no exception to the rule: It ain´t over until it´s over ;-)

And I guess that Microsoft´s experience in the game console and the PDA markets are the first and very strong signs of its long way down...

Like every giant empire or company, Microsoft will rather sooner than later collapse, crumble or simple fade away into obsolescence. It will not happen today or this month or this year. But most of us will still be around to see it happen.

It will be nothing unusual, it is just the way things have been, are and always will be.

That's just your wishful thinking I'm afraid. MS has not got where it is by producing bad products or running its business poorly. I really don't think they are about to sit back an let their dominance slip. Rather they are moving in on many other markets; PDA, Games Consoles, TV, Phones and Telecoms, Set top boxes, Mira and tablet PCs, content provision and .net to name a few recent ones. They may not suceed in all of these but curl up and die they will not.

MS is very good at one particular thing... falling in sh*t and smelling good when they get out... they aren't going anywhere... and those same pundits that have been predicting their takeover are probably planning their editorials now for how Palm is *finally* catching up to MS and praising MS for its forward thinking that the rest of the industry is only just now figuring out... (releasing jaw to stop biting tongue)..

One of the biggest problems here is that most of the folks who really *WANTED* a PDA have now bought one, so new sales are going to those who are just now arriving and trying to figure out (in the store) which device to buy... and I wish I had a Sony Clie for every time I've heard from someone "I bought a PPC because it was more compatible with Windows" .. I could start a Sony store. Like it or not, that's the kind of bad advice they are getting in the store.. and the fact that it says WINDOWS on it only solidifies the belief.

Boys, just learn some history !
ANY organisation has a certain lifespan, especially in a sensitive area like technology. Microsoft is not different. It is just another East India Company, Union Pacific, Standard Oil, ATT.

Its time will come, and it will go the way of all human creations. Into doom and obsolescence.

Actually Microsoft is already today fighting very hard for survival. I agree, MS will not be defeated now by its errors in creating the Xbox, the PPC or Windows XP. But already now the errors are summing up.

Not much more is needed...

And this is not wishful thinking, it is just the lesson history tells ;-)

Just wait ten more years ...

Ten years is a long time in business. I defy anyone to predict what will happen then! We might all be dead if India/Pakistan or Al-Q have their wicked way.

Maybe you do not even have to wait ten years.
Read: www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html

Could be anytime that MS collapses like Enron !!

In other words, If only smart people where to design and to make suggestions only the same smart people will be able to understand it.

I agree. im not saying palm is for not-so-smart people. but its like a cellphone. who needs a complicated cellphone? i find nokia to be userfriendly and guess what! theyre on TOP!

A pda needs to be simple and easy to use. a LONGER BATTERY LIFE FOR CHRISTS SAKE!

This is totally off topic but the story about the ms-engineers remind me of a story I heard about Mercedes-Benz engineers.

It was said, that at the year 2000, there were quite a lot of engineers over there who truly believed that people are NOW buying their Mercedes because THEY had invented the Airbag in the eighties...

Alan Cooper writes a compelling book speaks to this very sort of thing in a compelling way:

The Inmates Are Running The Asylum: Hwy High-Tech Products Drive Us Crazy and How to Restore the Sanity

-Brett

The Inmates Are Running The Asylum - a must read for any developer. Along with "The Design of Everyday Things" - which explains why if you try and design a car for everyone you end up with something compltely unusable (same for PDAs and anything else) and why doors that have handles should pull to open - not push.

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russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

Guys, let's not turn this into a car discussion, OK? It's totally off topic.

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News Editor

Great comments.

I just want to apport to the previous comments and clarify something.

Not because someone is an engineer or computer expert he/she will like a complex device. I think that one of the problem with people working on PPC is that they don't use the devices themselves on a day to day basis.

I my self am a Computer/Electrical Engineer. On my desktop I use and love Windows, it provides me with great tools and robust platform for software development. But when it comes to my handheld I use Palm because I just want a device that works fast and does what I need to do on the go, not what I need to do on a desktop.

Another reason I consider that will make Palm keep its market share is that it is already a standard. Most people don't buy Microsoft office for its feature set, they simply buy Office because it is already standard. And in the handheld world Palm OS is already a clear standard.

Hey Ed, the car discussion is actually relevant. The example was from Don Norman's "Everyday Things" book ... required reading for anyone doing Human Computer Interface (MMI, CHI, Ergonomics, etc) studies at University. It should be (and indeed is in many schools) required reading for anyone that does software engineering that involves any type of external interface.

MS would have you beleive that to open a door you must first open the trunk, and drag the tire iron to the window. Palm recognises that the handle is an intuitive design element, but leaves it up to the OS licensee to decide if the handle should lift up, lift out, or be wireless. They only specify that the handle should be there, and the action it should perform when it is used.

I posted the original comment in this thread. I should have made it more clear that I'm not saying that engineers/developers can't/won't develop easy-to-use products, nor do they enjoy using complex things. I just found that among the people I know who went to work for Microsoft, they tended to be the people who cared least about making things easy, and cared more about making things technically complicated. (the kind of people who, for example, use an instant messaging client to talk to someone across the room instead of merely speaking).

I'm always nervous when people bring up cars as an example. There are a lot of car enthusiasts out there and the conversations move quickly from "My Palm is like a Corvette" to "All GM cars suck" to "Richard Petty is my favorite driver". I'm just trying to be proactive before things go off topic.

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News Editor

My post about the "Inmates" was very on-topic Ed -- it had almost nothing to do with automobiles and everything to do with computer software and hardware design.

-Brett

The car analogies are actually quite relevant.

Heh, and one of the better metaphors for the PPC handhelds is the "Homer-mobile" (you folks, DID see that episode of the Simpsons, right?)

Oh yeah, i saw that and you know the ending!

My car crashes less often than a PPC.

Let Microsoft have the desktop. Palm owns the PDA. Sony owns the game consoles. Linux owns the TV set top boxes (tivo, replaytv, moxi, liberate, etc). Symbian and Palm will duke it out for the smartphone category. Welcome to the post-pc era

"Handheld computers must be trivial to use; the "killer feature" is the ability to help you quickly do something else in the real-world -- not be a "cool toy"..."

This is probably the most important issue for Palm and its licensees (and others?) to recognize. I use a PalmOS handheld in order to have all my notes, schedules, reminders, etc. in one place, and quickly retreivable. There are many other bells and whistles available for the PalmOS that are interesting and fun, but if it doesn't make it easy for me to keep my sh*t together, it's failing at its job. K.I.S.S.

*Preventing the off-topicness*
Sony rules the console world? Hardly. It rules the home-based console. Nintendo's GBA outsells 'em all. But I'll just say that the PSX/PS2 was only successful because of Nintendo. Nintendo made the 32 bit CD-ROM SNES add-on with Sony a LONG time ago, the "Play Station Xtreme." Ties broke, and Sony released it themselves. They don't make ANY games whatsoever, just like the Clié(Barring basic programs). They make good hardware, and if they ever "kill" PalmSource, then they'll be SOL.
...that didn't stay on topic as much as I'd like, but at least it ended on a PalmOS note.

I've used car analogies for a long time to explain the differences between the PPC and Palm philosophies. As long as they are truly analogies I think they're topical. Non-techies have a hard time understanding sometimes and I've noticed they understand cars better. I often describe the PPC philosophy as taking a fantastic BMW engine and deciding that since it works so well in cars it would work just as well on a motorcycle. Microsoft thinks the same way.

(Self-confessed Palm Geek)

BMW makes great motorsycles too! ;)

Kindest Regards

BMW and PPC entousiast

Just a short reply to the person who said Palm is the Standard for PDA, and MS Office is the standard for office app.

Standards change.

Even in the case of word applications. Word Perfect was THE standard for the longest time, until MS came along and stirred things up. Now, the standard is MS.

People change, habbits change, standards change.

People change, habbits change, standards change.

..and eventually MS will do its darndest to make it the standard...they're a business, that's what they do!

And I thought "Engineer", "Programmer" and "Designer" type of guys are supposed to be shooting for *ELEGANT*. Say, a new database search sub-routine that does faster searches while uses less power. Or a GUI design that displays more useable info with less space...

Ah well, at least that's what I was thinking anyways...

you disagree and yet make no statement with regards to your own opinion?

hehe. maybe you should read his post again. :) he said, "i DON'T disagree". it's a double negative :)

hey, donn't compare 2 hrs with 6 hrs.

Can we talk about weeks here??? im not talking about "hours of useability". i want Days at least! or the least thing they can do is put a dam* removable battery.

Removable battery is the way to go for now, but must be careful not to lose data.

Thanks, Robrecht

the problem with this debate about battery life is that not everyone decides to sit down for 2 hours at a time to read an e-book, or maybe watch a gmovie of smallville. most conventional users would use their pda's to just check a contact, schedule or whatever. i myself use my clie at school, typing away on my stowaway at length during the day, and have yet to have the battery die before the day is over, not to mention it charges in the few minutes i leave it in the cradle to sync and surf a little (like on PIC). i've even gone over 2 school days without charging, and that's even while using it during class with the keyboard. the same can't be said for the ppc though, as my friend has the same stowaway+pda combo (ipaq38xx), but his battery starts yelping after an hour-long meeting.

maybe until the tech is available for ultra-long battery life pda's, you should count your blessings... we've yet to (always) lug our charger around "just in case" our batteries run out.

While some casual users may not have problems plugging their PDAs into the cradle every night, significant numbers of PDA users are faced with time or environmental constraints that make this practice unfeasible.

For example, hospital residents are often on call for more than 12 hours at a time, leaving them with little time to wait for their PDAs, on which they have valuable drug and bug references, to charge. I also see people who travel long distances or to other countries frequently having difficulty finding the time or opportunity to charge their PDA every night.

For these users, which surely comprise no small portion of PDA users, a device featuring long battery life and replaceable batteries would be of immeasurable boon.

"the problem with this debate about battery life is that not everyone decides to sit down for 2 hours at a time to read an e-book"

You are right on the money.
Most handheld companies arrived at the estimate of 30 minutes per day being average based on observation and testing. There are extremes in either direction. Some people I know use their device for about 10 minutes per WEEK. Others use them for several hours per day, but it usually averages out in the end when you add the groups together. Either way you look at it though, a device with a 5 hour battery life will not die 5 hours after you remove it from the cradle unless it is on the entire time. 5 hours works out to ten days for the "Average Joe". Even the Palm OS devices with the worst battery life would make it through one of my average days (which are pretty exterme themselves), with only the unusual days getting me in trouble. Heck, even when I still had a IIIe I would go through a set of batteries per week. The list of things I use my Palm for in a day would be longer than I care to write at this time, but everthing work related saves me a huge amount of time. In light of this, I'm grateful for a device just as reliable as my old IIIe, smaller, faster, has 72 times the memory, and I don't have to break out in a sweat if I find out the battery is half empty on the way to work.

I could be wrong, but it seems there used to be a large difference in "standby" time between the 2 competing OS's, with PPC consuming more power while in the "off" mode. I have seen M505's go for well over a month in standby, while one of my best friends has to charge his iPaq every few days, even if he does not use it, and every night if he does use it. Is this standby drain still pretty big on the PPC2002?

It's been my experience that I almost never am without a chance to charge my Palm. There are enough options out there for charging on the go that it shouldn't be a problem for the vast majority of people. When I'm at work, I have a cradle I leave my Palm in whenever I'm not using it, same with at home. For those who travel there are travel chargers that plug into cars and wall outlets and such. Even someone who works a 12 hour shift at a hospital certainly has a lunch break when they can pop their handheld into a charger. I can't think of any reasonable situation where the battery life on current PalmOS handhelds is not sufficient for at least one day of use. And if you're using your handheld for recreational things like whatching movies which use up the battery fast and consume a lot of time, you obviously also have time on your hands to charge your handheld.

There are even mobile chargers that charge your rechargeable battery using a couple of AAAs. Battery life also depends on so many other things, though. If you just HAVE to have color, you sacrifice battery life. It's all about priorities. I love color and don't need the extra battery life so I chose appropriately.

(Self-confessed Palm Geek)

True Sony's devices (NR70V) doesn't last long at top brightness, but lower the brightness to mininum (still brighter than a m505), and you get battery life that's comparable to a Palm m515.

does every know what PDA meants? its personal digital assitant.. its suppose to assist you.. not the other way around.it seems that people are now trying to keep their assistant alive by bringing travel chargers.

I also put this in above but just in case...

Several recent studies have shown that Microsoft hasn't done all that good a job at enterprise sales. Gartner Group recently calculated that in 2001, Palm OS licensees accounted for more than 50% of handhelds sold to large companies and government organizations worldwide, compared to 32% for Pocket PC licensees, 1% for Symbian, and 16% for other operating systems.

I'm not sure where this idea came from that Pocket PCs were selling like hotcakes to the enterprise. A while back, David Nagel called it the triumph of wishful thinking over the facts.

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News Editor

Hmmm... maybe I've been reading too much PPC hype these days! I went looking for some data to back up the assertion that PPC seemed to be winning in the enterprise market and guess what? I couldn't find any. We all know about MS's persistance in the pursuit of their goals, but it seems this one has been elusive so far. On the other hand they do seem to have succeeded in creating the illusion of success (fooled me anyway!), which unfortunately can bring the reality about.

But of course it's still true that the enterprise battle is only beginning, and MS can still pull this one off.

Business history supports this conclusion. M$ beat Apple because of its alliance with IBM. IBM owned the enterprise market. Apple (at the time) owned the mindshare of the average joe. Who went on to dominate? It is also interesting to note that IBM at the time was being hounded by the Justice Department for monopolistic behaviors. Hmmm, who does that apply to now? Anyway, the enterprise market is simply where the biggest bucks are, and although Palm leads in this market, neither Palm nor Pocket PC have made much inroads. Simply put, there isn't much of a reason, yet, for IT buyers to spend money on handhelds. There are two reasons for this.

1) They are already spending money on desktops / employee.
2) What does the handheld permit a user to do that a desktop and/or a mobile phone can't?

In my opinion this second reason is the biggy. Anyone remember Lotus? Lotus was the company that made the first killer app for desktop PC's -- a spreadsheet. Even with the backing of IBM, M$ would not have won over the enterprise market without Lotus. M$ built the platform. IBM provided the muscle. But Lotus provided the *desire*.

I do not necessarily agree with Ed that the Palm OS is the inevitable "winner". The Palm OS will eventually become irrelevant (just as M$ DOS would have) if a kiler app does not emerge for the platform. Yes, the Palm OS is simple, intuitive and is great at being a portable database (it could push this a little more, I think). But, until it acquires that additional function that makes it absolutely necessary for the enterprise market, it won't really matter whether it is more successful than M$ because people will begin to lose interest. Whoever dreams up this "function" will become quite rich as will whichever OS - Palm or PocketPC - is the beneficiary.

You might be right, but aren't PDAs only going to grow more ubiquitous and more powerful in the coming years? Are you saying Microsoft's greediness will sabotage its own efforts in the PDA market, because I find it hard to believe they would be that foolish, even if in the short run it makes more sense to promote PCs over PPCs.

Because of the size difference, PDAs will never catch up with desktops, even as PDAs become vastly more powerful within a small form factor. So in any given year, the latest version of desktop Windows will not be able to fit reasonably in a PDA. Therefore, I think there will always be a distinct OS--not necessarily in coding or interface but in ability and power--for handhelds that is different from desktop devices. And desktops will always command a higher price. So it seems unlikely that Microsoft will ever get away with charging the same for minature computers/handhelds as they do for desktop OS's.

I'm all for a little well-deserved M$ bashing, but I find it hard to believe they would shoot themselves in the foot like this. Surely they understand that handhelds and desktops will never have the same capability and therefore their OS's cannot have identical pricing.

..and they say those mini VAX won't catch on and compete against full size mainframe. Than later the same comment about those underpowered PC vs mainframe with terminal network.

PDAs don't need to catch up with desktops. You're confusing technology with the market.

Lets say you had a PDA with a cradle that had a wireless KB & mouse hooked up to it, a flat screen monitor, hard disk, and dvd player. Software being compariable in functionality to the current desktop software. Then you'd effectively have a desktop replacement. (You can make a similar thing for laptops.)

The reason that this can happen is because a 1Ghz machine is pretty much fast enough to run all business software right now. In 3-4 years, PDAs will be at 1Ghz+.

This means that PDAs (with accessories) can first "disrupt" laptops and then desktops. (Read "The Innovator's Delima".)

When/If that happens, MS will have fewer PC OS sales at $65 each, and more PPC OS sales at about $10 each. This would amount to billions less each year in MS's core product line.

This isn't about MS being greedy either. MS's financials are set up to expect $15B+ per year from Windows + Office. If PPC would "win" the PDA war, and then disrupt PCs, it could amount to a loss of $10B+ per year. Not even MS could withstand that for long. And it would be realy, Really, REALLY tough for them to change the company to live with less.

Do you really think that there won't be anyone at MS fighting the changes needed to be done? Especially with this much money at stake? MS is already very famous for bloody turf wars.

Read "The Innovator's Delima". This is one situation in which it fully applies.

Todd.

"MS will have fewer PC OS sales at $65 each, and more PPC OS sales at about $10 each. This would amount to billions less each year in MS's core product line."

I am all for bashing M$ when they do things wrong... but I really don't know what world you live in... haven't you EVER HEARD of trying to cover a new market to increase your share on both (by the way typical M$ behaviour).

Now, you can sell a copy of windows for each household -how many have more than one computer?- but you can put a PDA in almost any person...

So $65.00 or $10.00 per software unit is not the point, is how many copies you can sell of each.

But this doesn´t consider the corporate market, anyway

Just a littel thougth

I have 5 computers!

"I am all for bashing M$ when they do things wrong... but I really don't know what world you live in... haven't you EVER HEARD of trying to cover a new market to increase your share on both (by the way typical M$ behaviour)."

Of course I've heard of it. It just usually work well with a disruptive technology. MS's customers are *not* going to all fit into the nice and tidy boxes that MS wants to put them into. If people right now could buy PPC machines (w/ free office) *right now* that could fully replace their PC for only $500, don't you think that that would cut into full PC sales?

There are people *right now* replacing their laptops with PDA/folding KB combos. In 3 years what might happen?

Please, read up about disruptive technology, and how it impacts a market. Repeatedly large, well run companies have been crippled and even gone under because they didn't understand it. For example, when hard drives went from 8"->5.25"->3.5", the market leader in total HD sales changed after each transition. These were disruptive changes, because they changed the inital target market and lowered the price per unit. On the other hand, incredible breakthroughs such as new HD head technologies have never changed the market leader because they targeted the current markets.

Now we get to creating a new market in order to grow both. This works fine for most things, including the start of a disruptive technology. However disruptive technology sales eventually start cutting into the higher margin sales of the major market. It's well documented by many case studies how difficult it is for a company to go down in margins. A PC->PPC transition would be an incredible drop in margins for MS.

As for selling more copies of each, I think that if MS could get WinXP to run on a PPC, they would be really happy about charging $65+ a pop for each PPC sold. A PPC is nearly the price of a PC, and 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a laptop, but MS only makes ~15% of what they would make otherwise (less if office is taken into account). They need to have 7 PPCs sold to match 1 PC.

Todd.

a computer in every room including maybe an imac on the coffee table and at least 2 Palms: a regular sized Palm and a Palmphone. gotta love technology!

"There are people *right now* replacing their laptops with PDA/folding KB combos. In 3 years what might happen?"

Yep! I'm one of 'em. I use my laptop primarily for our work request system (for which the Palm interface never materialized), and for surfing the web. My Palm will do the surfing fine, but NO handheld has a screen that I'd prefer to a full size laptop display.

You know which students get to class first? The ones with the laptops and PPC's... they all try to sit near a wall outlet. Me? I have not written anything on my laptop for over a year, as I prefer my Palm PPK combo over my laptop or desktop.

I agree with the original poster of this thread. Palm only wins with increase in PDA sale/popularity. To underscore the above point, consider that the average household only has so much $$$ per year that they will spend on electronics/computer devices (the same applies to corporate IT departments). PPCs may cost 1/2 of what a PC costs (actually - they are increasingly the same price) but MS is only getting $10 (assuming the best case scenario of that PDA actually being a PPC) instead of $65. Of course, if that home/IT budget is going towards the purchase of a Palm OS pda, then its purely a winning situation for Palm.

the clie NR form factor is a truly unique solution to those who want a really tiny laptop without taking too much space like tablet pc but still offers a nice screen and seperate kb.

Yeah, but I'm just bothered by the button placement. Does anybody know if Targus is making a fold-out keyboard for it? I like using my whole hand to type. Thumbing just isn't me.

on talk about margin as preventing MS to go after handheld. If MS doens't do it, somebody else will, and MS knows this.

that's why the invest heavily on phone and handheld so massively. Desktop revenue will be comparatively puny to the future handheld related items. It's simply because of its higher replacement rate and ubiquituosness. You wanna sell 20 titles at $5 with 60% margin a pop via wireless internet or a $80 shrink wrap with 50% margin?

you be the judge.

The Giga Group offers a more accurate assessment of the PDA market.

Read:

http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20020328S0007

Ummm... What's the saying I'm looking for...

"Sleep with dogs, wake with fleas."

I hate to be the one to tell you, but having a ****buddy is the domain of trailor trash. It's not the "house" you live in that makes you poor-white-trash, it's the "you".

I don't mean to be offensive. I just hope you can see the comments you made are fairly inflamatory, and they don't convey a great deal of "high-brow-ness" either.

Respectfully,
Tip DS

That's not fair to limit PPC users to trailer trash. I know lots of people that just want to listen to MP3's and flash their PPC gizzmos around. They even put 2 or 3 contacts and appointments once in a while.

"Only poor white trailer trash use PPC units. I know for a fact. My sleazy ****buddy of a girlfriend lives in a trailer park and all the neighborhood losers carry PPC units, mainly stolen. They keep trying to sell them to me. I keep telling them no-one uses those things anyways."

Your ****buddies wouldn't have anything stolen to sell if someone with enough resources had bought it in the first place.

I don't like PPC but when someone jumps into such a stupid conclusion, he deserves to be called stupid!!!

The reason my friends got PPC's is for the mp3's and the fact on Microsoft's website they lie about features when they compare the two OS's.(In about a month, the list will become nothing.) As soon as I show them Wordsmith, Bejeweled, other games and programs, and a REAL mp3 player that is JUST an mp3 player, they regret having a poor return policy. I take my Rio pmp300 everywhere. It has about 20 hours of life on a single AA battery, connects to my computer and runs off of cheap SM cards. A PPC needs constant recharging and uses power-draining CF cards or cramped internal memory. Why bother?

No offense, but can you tell me why you haven't commented on the clearly inappropriate nature of this post, yet you were quick to point out the problems you had with the guy that called you an "ANALyst?"
I know you favor Palm over PPC, but let's be fair to users of both platforms.

Wake up, Mr. Snobbish:
here in Europe there are no trailer parks nor white trash. Here, people that use their PDA use it for WORKS, not as elite badges, so me and some of my friends use PPC 'cos we want to bring with us our everyday work (Excel sheets, Word docs) without spending extra money for "program conduits"; some other of my friends use PALMs 'cos they manage better their emails and online catalogs for their different job necessities. We like each other - we have no time to waste in stupid classroom brawls.
Peace, man.

Whoever said Ed had to be fair!!! this is Palminfocenter, not letsbefairinfocenter!!

>>Your average Joe/Jane does not want to carry that hellish nightmare in their pocket.

LOL. So true:)

YES, YES, YES, YES! Within minutes of using a PPC for the first time, i was completley baffled by the obvious stupidity of this unbelieably bad design descision. I've even tried to get a discussion going on this subject in PIC several times (no takers - which makes me think that many Palm users don't actually understand what they are flaming and havent used a PPC). In any event there back-peddling in PPC 2002 is hilarious - a lame fix for a bad design descision (I CANT SAY ENOUGH HOW BAFFLED I AM - imagine not being able to close a freaking app without 10 clicks to get to an obcure system menu!!!). Heres what MS has to say in a doc titled "What's New for Developers in the Pocket PC 2002" on there dev site:

http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/developer/technicalarticles/whatsnew2002.asp

...check the heading 'Smart Minimize' aprox halfway down the page.

Can you believe this???? In other words, the user now doesn't know whther or not the app closed or minimized!! They will never win the PDA war.

The user doesn't have to know. If the system bogs down from too many open apps, it will start automatically closing idle apps behind the scenes. If you want more control, you can always install freeware like WISbar, which lets you close an app with a single tap. And before you flame me about needing to install third party software to address an OS "deficiency", what's X-Master?

With PPC, you can download free software (like GigaBar) which will either close your programs or minimize them.

Why minimizing is a good thing (although MS should have included an option to close): If you need to keep switching back and forth between something (like contact list and e-mail), you can do it without losing everything.

As for ease of use, stop whining. I figured out how to use my first PPC in about 20 minutes. What's so hard to understand? Give some examples, and we'll see.

PalmOS saves everything--why leave an app open if closing it doesn't lose anything?

Example of Microsoft's lack of thought: Solitaire. It's bundled with Windows, therefore, it should be bundled with Pocket Windows, right? Well, on a desktop it doesn't matter which side of the screen you put the deck on because you're using a mouse to control a tiny cursor. You can't just port it down and have the same quality--on a handheld you have to deal with people being right or left-handed! I hate reaching across what I'm trying to see all the time move through the deck. The M$ version doesn't even have an option to switch it. Every single PalmOS solitaire program I've ever seen has the option to switch deck position. Big deal? Of course not, but it demonstrates the differences between the platforms and why people prefer Palm. If M$ would stop thinking "PocketPC" and think more about what the real uses are they might have a chance.

I disagree with you totally

I am an avid user of both handheld types, and Palm OS is definately not any easier to use. It is just different to use.

And that one touch launching is stupid as well. Pocket PC can do two taps to launch a program, the Palm OS usually requires 3 (depending on category).

Stability is another rumor. If anything, PPC is more stable.

Battery life is another myth, atleast recently. The HP jornada gets 14 hours, while most color Palms get less.

I am not promoting PPC, I use both.

While I'm on my rant, the Palm OS may have more programs, but all the major areas on PPC are covered.

Has anyone else used both and found anything similar? Not to sound like I'm knocking the previous poster--it's more that I want to find out how much is unique to his/her experience and how much is broader and perhaps overlooked by most people out there.

I disagree with you totally

I am an avid user of both handheld types, and PPC is definately[sic] not any easier to use. It is just different to use.

And that one touch launching is stupid as well. Palm OS can do one tap to launch a program, the Pocket PC usually requires 3 (depending on category).

Stability is another rumor. If anything, Palm OS is more stable.

Battery life is another myth, atleast recently. The Sony PEG-NR70V gets 14 hours, while most color PPCs get less.

I am not promoting Palm OS, I use both.

While I'm on my rant, the PPC may have less programs, but all the major areas on Palm OS are covered.

>>>The user doesn't have to know. If the system bogs down from too many open apps, it will start automatically closing idle apps behind the scenes. If you want more control, you can always install freeware like WISbar, which lets you close an app with a single tap. And before you flame me about needing to install third party software to address an OS "deficiency", what's X-Master?

Bull. Are you a complete moron? Has anybody out there used a PPC for an extended period of time? PPC may close down apps after enough are running - but you will experience MAJOR slow down before this - i am a ****ing app developer who has free access to Palm and PPC devices - ANY ONE defending this boner of a MS design flaw is insane!!!! (why the hell do you think MS *tried* (lamely) to fix this in 2002? this is the most blatent example of brand loyalty denial i have ever seen! NEWS FLASH: unless you tap at 5(!)times to get to the 'running programs' menu on PPC in order to close it - your subsequent apps run slower! COME ON - don't ****in lie on PIC just to justify yr purchase - this is the dumbest thing in any modern OS - and by all defintions of PDA OS usability WINS MY PERSONAL AWARD FOR DUMBEST INTERFACE IDEA EVER (it's a PDA - so not having a keyboard and mouse means the OS is supposed to counter this by requiring less to do the same - NOT 5 times more!!!!). Don't tell me
that : "the user doesnt have to know" : the user (if they have any sense of sanity - BLOODY WELL KNOWS A SLOW DOWN AS SEVERE AS PPC CAUSES WHEN NOT SHUTING DOWN APPS - when they experience it - or maybe yr a moron incapable of understanding the obvious. Sure - lots on PIC readers will be pissed for my blatent flaming here - but just use a PPC instead of bitching about it - its worse then you think. As for this poster - you have to be a moron or a liar - which is it?

duuuuude - chill out. what you do is go to download.com, download free gigabar, and install it, and then with a directional you can close programs. with a different directional tap you can minimize programs. you can also customize it to change your volume, and go to all the different settings. sheesh. bottom line - dl the software, and you only need 1 tap.

I'm sure that this will only end up being a fruitless endeavor, but I'm going to go against my gut feeling and try to inject a bit of honesty as well as some facts into this discussion.

Mr. Developer, it's obvious from your CAPS laden tirade that you feel strongly about several issues with the PPC devices. Before I even get started, I'll list a little bit of my experience with handheld devices to help you better understand where I'm coming from. I've owned several different Newtons (fine machines those were too!), a Psion Revo, multiple Palm OS devices (starting with the original Palm Pilot and growing from there, the last of which was the M515), as well as many WinCE OS units starting with v1.0 of the OS (clamshells with keyboards) leading all the way up to the first PsPC's and now the PPC and PPC2K2. My current "daily driver" PDA is an original iPaq 3630 with a silver slider CF sled and the PPC OS. So I suppose that you could say that I've used quite a few different platforms, models and OSes.

I seriously doubt that you will find too many takers when it comes to defending Microsoft's decision to not give users an easy way of closing running applications on the PPC and PPC2K2 OSes. Taking five taps to access a list of running applications is ludicrous. However, installing a simple task switcher / closer is quite trivial, and the very best ones are freeware; WISbar and Gigabar are the two that instantly come to mind. So, the installation of a small program gives you instant access to a nice little close icon that gives you the functionality Microsoft choose to leave out. That surely makes this a non-issue.

Which now brings us to your severe slow down issues. The only time that I have ever noticed a severe slow down on a PPC or PPC2K2 device are when Microsoft Reader or Windows Media Player are running in the background. These two applications, more than any other, cause slowdown issues when they are running with other applications active. Leaving the OS to manage the running applications shows no noticable slow down on the device as you switch between running apps, or as the device shuts down running apps while you launch new ones. However, this is only the case when the above listed applications are not left open and running. Those particular applications are real resource hogs, and can really bog the system down. But again, with the installation of a freeware utility, that slowdown can be completely eliminated.

I have performed many tests on several different models of PPC's, and that slowdown issue doesn't occur unless one or more of those two applications are running in conjunction with several other applications. By avoiding those two; launching new apps, or switching between running apps is nearly instantaneous. So, once again, using a freeware utility to close down those two specific apps eliminates this issue. If you wish to take it a step further, why not install some third party applications, and completely eliminate the need to run those two any longer?

Why do you seem to have such an aversion to installing a simple freeware app on the PPC? Or to replace the offending apps with others that don't cause these issues? Surely you have quite a few hacks installed on your tweaked out Palm OS PDA, as well as some applications that enhance or replace the ones included on your PDA's ROM. Why is this very same thing heresy on the PPC?

- Joseph

Joseph,

Interesting post. I wasn't aware that the PPC system slowdowns I've experienced were primarily due to those two applications.

Cheers.

Look kids, we got our first Pocket PC troll. Normally I delete troll comments but this one was particularly unintelligent so I thought I'd let it stand as an example of the type of comments the pro-PPC crowd leave.

It isn't even all that good a pun. It's been used about five thousand times already.

---
News Editor

> Gee, an ANALyst