MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Editorial: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner

Former PIC News Editor Ed Hardy takes a look at the competition between the Palm OS and the Pocket PC OS. Though long only a niche player in the handheld market, recently the Pocket PC started to make some gains. With the release of Palm OS 5, the competitive landscape has shifted back in the Palm OS's favor. The change to faster processor and the addition of new capabilities means that the Palm OS is in no danger of losing its lead in the handheld market.
Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (467 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Comments Closed Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.

Down

typo

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:18:22 PM #
PPC's use 320 x 240 screens, not 320 x 280...

huggy

RE: typo
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:27:30 PM #
"Steve Bush from Brighthand is the one WHO shed the light"
RE: typo
Ed @ 6/10/2002 4:28:06 PM #
Thanks..

---
News Editor
RE: typo
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:18:57 AM #
What a brilliant comment. So you saw a typo in an exceptionally and informative article and home in on the typo. Thanks for your contribution.
RE: typo
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:27:50 PM #
Uhm, he just pointed out the typo. He didn't call into question any part of the article because of the typo as you might be implying...
RE: typo
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:07:31 PM #
The guy making the comment about the typo was likely making the point that typos and poor grammar distract the reader from the main thesis of the article. It's like trying to read a book wearing scratched glasses. In these days of spelling and grammar checkers, there's really no excuse for not providing an article with few or no errors - that's a general comment; I'm not picking on the author of this particular story.

Get ready, PPC trolls coming...

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:18:38 PM #
I agree with Ed.

Now, I'm excited to see what Sony (not Palm) comes out with.

RE: Get ready, PPC trolls coming...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:22:58 PM #
Go Palm/Apple/Linux!
RE: Get ready, PPC trolls coming...
Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 8:09:28 PM #
LOL! It's an interesting editorial/perspective all right, but a GUARANTEED topic to start a religious war. Any bets on how many posts this "article" will generate by the end of the week? :-)

RE: Get ready, PPC trolls coming...
Fly-By-Night @ 10/11/2002 11:00:52 AM #
Just been reading this as I hadn't noticed the editorial before, so come to it rather late.

Just a word of warning for anyone else coming to this a few moths late: DO NOT bother reading any of the posts below. For some reason a bunch of PPC users have been let out of the asylum for a day trip and have filled up the comments board. They seem really angry about something....

Personally, I think PPC is ****e so won't buy one. The rest of you can do what you want...

FBN

Thanks

abosco @ 6/10/2002 4:23:58 PM #
Very well put. This article basically sums up everything that I have been posting in the other discussion boards. PPC buyers now have no argument as to what their handheld can do that is better than the Palms. That tagline is better than anything Microsoft has ever had.
Spoken like a true hero, Ed.
Almost as good and twice as big.

-Bosco

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:41:42 PM #
This is great! Where can I buy PDA with OS 5.0?
RE: Thanks
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 6/10/2002 4:46:20 PM #
> This is great! Where can I buy PDA with OS 5.0?

You can buy a Sony Clie right now and it will have all the same features as any OS 5.0 device released this year. (hi-res, mp3, multi-media)

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:57:22 PM #
"You can buy a Sony Clie right now and it will have all the same features as any OS 5.0 device released this year. (hi-res, mp3, multi-media)"

I keep reading this statement by NR owners, and yet I see no reason to believe it. The NR launcher doesn't even have the OS 5 icons on it. The OS 5 version of the NR may have a better battery life, etc. Only time will tell.

RE: Thanks
robrecht @ 6/10/2002 7:09:05 PM #
But how many software developers will continue to improve their products to run more effectively on an OS4 machine?

Waiting for OS5 may make sense in terms of better software options down the road. Or is it so far down the road that we should wait for OS6? Appreciate any well informed posts on this topic.

Thanks, Robrecht

RE: Thanks
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 6/10/2002 7:59:36 PM #
>>>>>>>>>
From Ed:

Microsoft doesn't win at everything it does.

It's a little early to say but have you been paying attention to how poorly the Xbox is selling?
>>>>>>>>>

Interesting that you mention the XBox. The X-Box is actually one example of a superior product not selling well. How interesting that M$ produced it, because usually with M$ products it is the exact opposite: a non-superior product dominating the market.

Anyway, I will contend your original point that M$ will not automatically own the PDA market just because they are M$.

What *can* PPC do better?
Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 8:17:29 PM #
I'm hoping that someone more experienced with PPC than I can provide a straight response on this.

I've got a new Toshiba e570 PPC (a gift) and had a loaner iPAQ H3875 for a month before that. I've spent a number of hours surfing the Net looking for some really compelling applications that show off this (supposedly) state-of-the-art hardware but have little to show for my efforts.

So please, point me to a killer app or two?

- I found a version of AutoCAD but frankly, it was relatively useless on a 320x240 screen (and at a cost of $200....?!)

- Pocket Streets looks nice, but the PPC2002 version is no longer free (and I'm uncomfortable paying for a MS desktop mapping software program that has no trial version.)

- Windows Media Player/Pocket TV/DivX are OK for showing off movie trailers and other little video demos but the frame rates aren't good enough for extended viewing, and you need very large storage cards to fit a TV program or movie on it. So, what do you use this feature for?

- MS Reader looks pretty good, but I'm REQUIRED to get an MS Passport account to use it? Please tell me there is some way around this! I don't want a Passport account! (MS hasn't exactly earned my trust...)

Oh, and I'd LOVE help with this: I've got the Palm/Toshiba Bluetooth SDIO card. Works great on a Palm m505. How do I get it running on the e570? I can't find driver files for PPC anywhere on Toshiba's support site or on Microsoft's?


RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:24:21 PM #
The X box may be superior in terms of processor speed, but it is a 32 bit machine.

Game Cube, Play Station 2 and even the late Dreamcast are 128 bit machines. In this regard the Xbox is in the same boat as PPC.

RE: Thanks
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 6/10/2002 8:30:46 PM #
>>>>>>>>
The X box may be superior in terms of processor speed, but it is a 32 bit machine.

Game Cube, Play Station 2 and even the late Dreamcast are 128 bit machines. In this regard the Xbox is in the same boat as PPC.
>>>>>>>>>

The fact that the X-Box is 32-bit means nothing. The Dreamcast is 128-bit yet the X-Box is superior to it in every respect (graphics, internal HD, etc.). I would also say that the X-Box is superior to the PS2 in terms of technical capability. So the number of bits doesn't make the machine.

Thus it is still true that the X-Box is a superior machine that does not sell well. This is what makes it different than the PocketPC, which is an inferior (IMO, PPC users may disagree) platform that DOESN'T sell well.

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:34:38 PM #
superior hardware vs superior coders-sometimes the coders win. They don't take the hardware for granted and write the most efficient code possible. I can only imagine what Ardiri and Blue Nomad could come up with on a PalmOS 5 device with 128 megs, 400 mhz and a mediaq mq 1168.
Xbox
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 10:36:09 PM #
More impressive specs but it's not selling near the numbers it needs to - it's the DreamCast for this decade. They got all of the early-adopter, I'll-buy-anything-MicroSoft hardcore gamers right after launch but are now falling further and further behind the competition sales-wise.

At the recent E3 (the big gaming conference/expo), the general vibe was that Xbox is already an also-ran. MS is losing a lot of money on each console sold and is not getting the required licensing revenue from their games to make it up.

While we're talking about losers that MS has backed, what's happening with MS AutoPC? MS Ultimate TV? MS "Stinger" Smartphone (is anyone besides Sendo going to make these?)?

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 10:41:18 PM #
I'm sorry but A Console Game Will never...EVER Be as good as a game on a Desktop

RE: Thanks
Smaug @ 6/10/2002 11:35:32 PM #
Real quick, all the new consoles are 32 bit. At least if you measure it by the more common measure on PC Chips of the address bus. Bits mean nothing, above 16 there isnt too much of a concern in a console(oh no, it can only handle a max of 4 gigs of memory!). It's all about the other stuff.

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:48:41 AM #
Number battles do nothing. The NES was under 1mhz, the SNES was 3.97mhz yet seemingly outperformed functions of a 100mhz desktop pc. XBox is running numbers in a Windows world where everything is ineffecient. Nintendo custom designed their chips and stripped everything out that they could. In the end the 4 systems, while obvious winners exist in graphics, by sheer brute force, it's negligible, just like between the Genesis and SNES, and in the end, rests in how fun the games are. (And yes, I am the same person who posted about the PSX's history above.)
Graphics and power are a gimmick to be played out. Jaguar, 3DO, Neo-Geo, Game Gear and Lynx all out-shown their competitors, but couldn't hold a candle to gameplay. I doubt I'll have any arguments against me saying Nintendo makes the best games in the world.(Arguable, but they ARE in the top 3, NO?) I don't need violence, blood, cussing in music or highly-detailed facial and chest hair on fighters. I want something my friends and I can pick up and play and HAVE FUN. If you can't stand the "kiddie" appeal(And for christsake's, find a new word, too.) then take a look at what you are doing in the first place. Holding a bent box, pressing buttons to make fake people beat each other up. How is that not "kiddie" and "immature?" *sigh* I'm ranting, but I hope someone will see my side of this without dissecting every thought.
XBox has it in numbers, but not in quality.
RE: Thanks
mashoutposse @ 6/11/2002 10:12:09 AM #
XBOX may have the upper hand as far as hardware is concerned, but its current software based still leaves much to be desired. THAT is why the machine is dead-last in every market.

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:23:48 PM #
"I'm sorry but A Console Game Will never...EVER Be as good as a game on a Desktop"

I'm sorry but A Desktop Game Will never...EVER Be as good as a game on a Console.

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:07:52 PM #
The Xbox is aimed at a more 'adult' 20-30something market and has a smaller potential than say the Game Cube. Have you seen the game cube games? Strictly kids stuff. The reason this is becoming succesful is that school kids buy them because they are cheap and their friends also have the same. Xbox is not an attractive product to school kids. That's it.
RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:43:32 PM #
Sorry to contradict you but the Game cube is not aimed at young people as you say.

Resident Evil (considered to be the most violent console game) is now a Game Cube exclusive (go to gamespot.com or ign.com for the press release). And the already released Resident Evil remake for the game cube looks more gory than any PSX2 or Xbox game today.


Also many gory games are now comming for the game cube including Turok 3, Mortal Kombat, etc.

Off Topic
Ed @ 6/11/2002 4:26:53 PM #
Guys, this is a handheld site. This conversation about game consoles, while maybe interesting, is totally off topic.

---
News Editor
RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:27:43 PM #
Resident Evil is GORY not VIOLENT. THAT title would go to the GTA series, on the Palm, Game Boy, PC, PSX and PS2. Only recently acknowledged since GTA3 added new views in addition to the top-down view of the others.
RE: Thanks
jjsoh @ 6/12/2002 12:24:57 AM #
: Guys, this is a handheld site. This conversation about
: game consoles, while maybe interesting, is totally off
: topic.

Ed

And you were worried about car analogy off-topicness! As soon as you commented on the XBox, I was sure to see a long, LONG thread to follow.. heheh.. :)

But I agree, it is interesting, but this is definitely not the place to discuss it.


Jim

RE: Thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 7:38:20 AM #
>Very well put. This article basically sums up
>everything that I have been posting in the other >discussion boards. PPC buyers now have no argument as >to what their handheld can do that is better than the >Palms. That tagline is better than anything Microsoft >has ever had.
>Spoken like a true hero, Ed.
>Almost as good and twice as big.

>-Bosco

There are things that PPC will still do better. For example, OS 5 will not allow for native file extensions.

but..

cyruski @ 6/10/2002 4:36:40 PM #
i'm no ppc troll, but a question formed in my mind when i saw the toshiba e310: how come do they make it so small?

cyruski!
RE: but..
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:04:12 PM #
being one of the biggest electronic conglomerate in the planet with the enginenering dept. apparently help.
RE: but..
Midknyte @ 6/10/2002 6:22:17 PM #
They left out CF media

RE: but..
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:18:06 PM #
If Toshiba did such an incredible feast of downzising the PPC and supersizing its battery life, just imagine what would they could have done if they had picked Palm OS...


Maybe .3 inch thin handhelds with 15+ hours batteries.

RE: but..
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:12:13 AM #
Sorry, the Palm OS doesn't change the laws of physics and permit a unit so thin to run that long. If it could, then the T-615 could run longer than 3 hours at high bright.
RE: but..
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:55:18 PM #
Anyone who likes the PPC is a troll!
RE: but..
Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 8:07:36 PM #
Nonsense.

A general and false statement like that is "trolling".

RE: but..
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/26/2002 6:58:41 PM #
hahaha troll
RE: but..
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/26/2002 6:58:41 PM #
hahaha "troll"

Micro$oft wins one way or another

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:22:36 PM #
I hope what you say will happen does, but I am pessimistic. M$ killed almost all competing desktop OS's. It was not a question of which was better. It apparently was M$'s business practices. Their business practices have not changed and now they are targeting handhelds. Palm does an very good job with their handhelds. Palm is modernizing in good ways. But apparently M$ owns corporate IT departments. There seems to be an increasing illusion that PocketWindows is the enterprise handheld. There continue to be reports in computer media deseminating fear, uncertainty and doubt concerning Palm's long term viability. Beyond all this, as Micro$oft already owns the majority of Palm users' desktops, it has major inroads to their palmtops.
RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:58:02 PM #
Microsoft couldn't kill an OS that got about 80% of the handheld market so easily! :-)
Micro$oft is Not Unbeatable
Ed @ 6/10/2002 5:08:45 PM #
Microsoft beat Apple because Windows PCs were less expensive. The hardware requirements for Windows were significantly less than those of a Mac. Windows was less functional but price won out.

But now the shoe is on the other foot. Palm OS handhelds have less hardware requirements and therefore their prices are lower. I expect history to repeat itself.

Several recent studies have shown that it is Palm who dominates enterprise sales. Gartner Group recently calculated that in 2001, Palm OS licensees accounted for more than 50% of handhelds sold to large companies and government organizations worldwide, compared to 32% for Pocket PC licensees, 1% for Symbian, and 16% for other operating systems.

Microsoft doesn't win at everything it does.

  • A few years ago, Bill Gates decided that too much money was going to Adobe so he put out a rival to PhotoShop. It died so badly I can't even remember its name.
  • MSN is still way behind AOL.
  • It's a little early to say but have you been paying attention to how poorly the Xbox is selling?

    ---
    News Editor
  • RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:06:38 PM #
    X-Box has dropped price in the Uk recently and is still being outsold by PS2 and GC. In Japan, the dead Dreamcast is still outselling the X-Box (ironically Dreamcast runs on WinCE - no wonder its so slow and crashes alot).

    The problem isn't Microsoft's lack of innovation - the problem is this - Microsoft does not care whether it will lose round one or round 50. They have the resouce to lose money and they do not care. They were willing to give away IE just to kill Netscape - it just show how much money they can give away.

    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    Pleis @ 6/10/2002 6:22:42 PM #
    This is a different ballgame for M$. When Microsoft took on Netscape, there was very little mindshare about what the Internet WAS.. much less which BROWSER you should use.

    This is different. Palm is ingrained as the market leader. The average joe on the street sees a PDA and goes "Is that one of those Palm Pilots?"

    That type of Mindshare is exactly what Microsoft is used to leveraging to its advantage. It'll be interesting to see what it can do to overcome its second-player role in a market that has already emerged? My guess would be.. that it has to create a better product. I'm not sure it can.

    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:30:25 PM #
    "# It's a little early to say but have you been paying attention to how poorly the Xbox is selling?"

    A little off-topic, but it's interesting that you mention this. I work at a small private Asian advertising agency and I just heard rumblings today that XBox sales are in a serious slump and it needs more sales. So, it's attempting to tap more into the Asian market since the American public is not responding as well as Microsoft had hoped.

    Since most of the people at my workplace know I'm a console gaming fanatic with some recent consoles (i.e. PS2, GCN, GBA, etc.) and not-so-recent consoles (i.e. N64, DC, PSX, SNES, NES, etc.) under my belt, they've been asking me how the XBox gaming scene is to get a feel for the market. What else can I say? It's great hardware (sans bulky controllers and huge form factor), but the software doesn't appeal to me.

    Just because it works for the PC, doesn't mean it works for everything else. Apparently, that applies towards console gaming too. I don't want PC games on my console. Give me more originality and substance, and maybe I'll get an XBox. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. YMMV.


    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:21:35 PM #
    With the OQO -- a handheld running Windows XP -- coming out later this year, I think PocketPC will have neither the high nor the low end. People who want simple but customizable will stick with PalmOS. People who want handheld computers will spend a couple hundred dollars more and get a real computer, not PPC crippleware.
    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:13:09 AM #
    now why would anyone squish XP into a handheld? That's even worse than pocketpc
    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:46:33 AM #
    >>This is a different ballgame for M$. When Microsoft took on Netscape, there was very little mindshare about what the Internet WAS.. much less which BROWSER you should use.

    Yep. When the press started to go ga-ga when 'PocketPC' came out, i encountered so many people who just assumed microsoft was going to beat out Palm because they were so powerful and - after all - they beat out Netscape and would do the same here. This is lazy analysis. The reality is that there are HUGE differences between the MS vs Palm scerario and MS vs Netscape:

    1 - Netscape users didn't invest $500 in their browser the way Palm users did in there PDA.

    2 - IE was free to download. Last time i checked, nobody in Redmond had plans to lose THAT MUCH MONEY on such an approach here!

    3 - IE runs all the same 'software' (webpages) that netscape did. Palm support - as most here know - is huge, with something like 15,000 apps available. PPC still only has a few thousand apps at best.

    4 - IE's interface is basically the same as Netscapes. PPC is quite different (and as mentioned above, unintuitive) from Palms.

    The proof is there: WinCE has been out for 5(!) years and they only have 15% of overall market. Sony - which has been in the biz for only a couple of yrs - has been flamed on PIC for achieving the same.

    If this were anyother company in the world they would have dropped the platform by now. But its MS - they'll pour hundreds of nmillions into this until they realize there mistake (maybe they'll just keeping flush cash down the toilet forever?).


    RE: Micro$oft will lose ALL one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:37:11 AM #
    Microsoft is no exception to the rule: It ain´t over until it´s over ;-)

    And I guess that Microsoft´s experience in the game console and the PDA markets are the first and very strong signs of its long way down...

    Like every giant empire or company, Microsoft will rather sooner than later collapse, crumble or simple fade away into obsolescence. It will not happen today or this month or this year. But most of us will still be around to see it happen.

    It will be nothing unusual, it is just the way things have been, are and always will be.

    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:26:05 AM #
    That's just your wishful thinking I'm afraid. MS has not got where it is by producing bad products or running its business poorly. I really don't think they are about to sit back an let their dominance slip. Rather they are moving in on many other markets; PDA, Games Consoles, TV, Phones and Telecoms, Set top boxes, Mira and tablet PCs, content provision and .net to name a few recent ones. They may not suceed in all of these but curl up and die they will not.
    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:24:58 AM #
    MS is very good at one particular thing... falling in sh*t and smelling good when they get out... they aren't going anywhere... and those same pundits that have been predicting their takeover are probably planning their editorials now for how Palm is *finally* catching up to MS and praising MS for its forward thinking that the rest of the industry is only just now figuring out... (releasing jaw to stop biting tongue)..

    One of the biggest problems here is that most of the folks who really *WANTED* a PDA have now bought one, so new sales are going to those who are just now arriving and trying to figure out (in the store) which device to buy... and I wish I had a Sony Clie for every time I've heard from someone "I bought a PPC because it was more compatible with Windows" .. I could start a Sony store. Like it or not, that's the kind of bad advice they are getting in the store.. and the fact that it says WINDOWS on it only solidifies the belief.

    RE: Micro$oft is not almighty, just another sucker
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:35:44 PM #
    Boys, just learn some history !
    ANY organisation has a certain lifespan, especially in a sensitive area like technology. Microsoft is not different. It is just another East India Company, Union Pacific, Standard Oil, ATT.

    Its time will come, and it will go the way of all human creations. Into doom and obsolescence.

    Actually Microsoft is already today fighting very hard for survival. I agree, MS will not be defeated now by its errors in creating the Xbox, the PPC or Windows XP. But already now the errors are summing up.

    Not much more is needed...

    And this is not wishful thinking, it is just the lesson history tells ;-)

    Just wait ten more years ...

    RE: Micro$oft wins one way or another
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 5:00:38 AM #
    Ten years is a long time in business. I defy anyone to predict what will happen then! We might all be dead if India/Pakistan or Al-Q have their wicked way.
    RE: Micro$oft wins ???
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/22/2002 3:13:09 AM #
    Maybe you do not even have to wait ten years.
    Read: www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html

    Could be anytime that MS collapses like Enron !!

    The problem with MS: its employees

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:14:58 PM #
    I study computer science at a university where Microsoft recruits heavily. I know many of the people they have hired from my university in the last couple years. I myself have been interviewed by Microsoft (and have a standing invitation for an on-site interview). In the course of their recruiting process, I have spoken with several Microsoft employees, particularly in the area of mobile computing.

    All of these people are very intelligent, bright, clever, hardworking individuals. I bear no ill will to them, nor do I think they are unqualified to be working on such advanced systems.

    I will also qualify my following statements with the caveat that I have spoken with developers and engineers only - I have not spoken with any usability experts or designers at Microsoft. So my comments may be wrong.

    What I find is that their development process takes usability as an afterthought -- something to work into a subsequent revision, after receiving customer feedback. Products are not tightly designed around customer needs.

    This happens because their development process is decentralized and executed by developers/engineers. Each project (PPC, for example), has a manager, who is usually a business person. He or she is in charge of a group that is largely composed of engineers who manage a particular component of the larger project (which can be as granular the data entry screen in a to do application, for example, or as large as a calculator program).

    The project manager gives a list of features in checklist form to the engineers managing each component. This is a problem because it results in little integration among components, and because it empowers individual engineers with the ability to design everything, including the user interface.

    Again, I believe that MS employees are very intelligent and capable people. However, they are not the right type of people to be designing user interfaces for their products because these people are expert computer users, who have developed a tolerance for user interfaces that waste time and are inconsistent. They do not see the obvious usability flaws in the interfaces they design; instead, they just accept things they way they are and think that such problems are normal.

    Compare the number of taps required to do something in on PPC vs. number of taps required on Palm. For example, compare number of taps to enter a new to do item, or to schedule something. (note: they are improving -- the difference has been closing in newer versions of PPC). To be fair, the PPC allows "richer" items -- on PPC, I can store the location of a scheduled appointment in a specially designated blank for the location, whereas on Palm, I need to include it in the generic text field for location. Some people may think that this means the Palm is limited. But I disagree -- examine a day planner, and you will not find a place to put location - just a blank line, waiting for you to fill it up. The additional value of having a special blank for a location is negligible when it comes at the cost of several additional taps required to schedule something.

    The to do application is another excellent example. On Palm, I need only push the to do button, and start writing in the graffiti area to add a new task. On PPC, I need to click the new button, and input the task into a number of fields.

    While these additional taps do not seem to be a problem, if you consider that most people hate managing their schedule, and could just use paper if they wanted to, each second shaved off the amount of time to do something is highly significant. (I'm so lazy that I know an additional tap to do something may be the difference between managing my time/tasks on Palm and doing it on paper or not doing it at all. I doubt I am unique.)

    Add in the time to retrieve the device from pocket/bag/etc, and turn it on and wait for the screen to be drawn. If the amount of time is too high, the device no longer saves you time, it wastes it, and there's really no reason to use it. Yet the people at Microsoft seem not to understand this; again, I believe that it is because the people driving these project are engineers and developers who are used to dealink with slow, unintuitive interfaces, and love computers so much that it makes up for any time they waste on them.

    To make things worse, they add usability experts in after their development cycle. Anyone with experience in this area knows that usability must be involved in the whole process -- its impact afterwards is minimal. Furthermore, they drive their revisions off of "feature checklists" given to them by customers who purchase their products. In many cases, these will be middle managers, who do not actually use the devices themselves, but instead have come up with a list of things required for the devices to be on the network. People rarely add "easy-to-use" to the list of features they need -- instead they add things like 'manage a computer from my handheld,' which results in ridiculous things like the Remote Desktop client, which requires users to use their 320x320 PPC screens to view their much larger desktop screens.

    I have heard that when MS-Word was still competing against WordPerfect and AmiPro, the Word group kept two charts on their wall: sales of WordPerfect vs Word, and a feature checklist of Word vs. WordPerfect. They kept working until they achieved feature parity with WordPerfect. While they may have come up with one or two novel features, the central driving force of their development process was their competition's feature checklist.

    Handheld computers must be trivial to use; the "killer feature" is the ability to help you quickly do something else in the real-world -- not be a "cool toy" which is useful to themselves (there are exceptions to this of course but this seems to be true most of the time). Using a feature checklist, having people who cannot differentiate between an excellent interface and a decent one, and considering usability as an afterthought do not result in the creation of this "killer feature." Palm understood this early on; the evolutionary progress of PalmOS (which of course would probably be better if it was faster) is a testament to their grasp of this. As long as Palm continues to add features without making their OS distracting and difficult, they will own the market.

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:58:52 PM #
    In other words, If only smart people where to design and to make suggestions only the same smart people will be able to understand it.

    I agree. im not saying palm is for not-so-smart people. but its like a cellphone. who needs a complicated cellphone? i find nokia to be userfriendly and guess what! theyre on TOP!

    A pda needs to be simple and easy to use. a LONGER BATTERY LIFE FOR CHRISTS SAKE!

    engineers proud of their product...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:56:06 PM #
    This is totally off topic but the story about the ms-engineers remind me of a story I heard about Mercedes-Benz engineers.

    It was said, that at the year 2000, there were quite a lot of engineers over there who truly believed that people are NOW buying their Mercedes because THEY had invented the Airbag in the eighties...

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:45:44 PM #
    Alan Cooper writes a compelling book speaks to this very sort of thing in a compelling way:

    The Inmates Are Running The Asylum: Hwy High-Tech Products Drive Us Crazy and How to Restore the Sanity

    -Brett

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:52:52 PM #
    The Inmates Are Running The Asylum - a must read for any developer. Along with "The Design of Everyday Things" - which explains why if you try and design a car for everyone you end up with something compltely unusable (same for PDAs and anything else) and why doors that have handles should pull to open - not push.


    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    Ed @ 6/10/2002 7:04:06 PM #
    Guys, let's not turn this into a car discussion, OK? It's totally off topic.

    ---
    News Editor
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:09:24 PM #
    Great comments.

    I just want to apport to the previous comments and clarify something.

    Not because someone is an engineer or computer expert he/she will like a complex device. I think that one of the problem with people working on PPC is that they don't use the devices themselves on a day to day basis.

    I my self am a Computer/Electrical Engineer. On my desktop I use and love Windows, it provides me with great tools and robust platform for software development. But when it comes to my handheld I use Palm because I just want a device that works fast and does what I need to do on the go, not what I need to do on a desktop.

    Another reason I consider that will make Palm keep its market share is that it is already a standard. Most people don't buy Microsoft office for its feature set, they simply buy Office because it is already standard. And in the handheld world Palm OS is already a clear standard.

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:38:31 PM #
    Hey Ed, the car discussion is actually relevant. The example was from Don Norman's "Everyday Things" book ... required reading for anyone doing Human Computer Interface (MMI, CHI, Ergonomics, etc) studies at University. It should be (and indeed is in many schools) required reading for anyone that does software engineering that involves any type of external interface.

    MS would have you beleive that to open a door you must first open the trunk, and drag the tire iron to the window. Palm recognises that the handle is an intuitive design element, but leaves it up to the OS licensee to decide if the handle should lift up, lift out, or be wireless. They only specify that the handle should be there, and the action it should perform when it is used.

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:42:31 PM #
    I posted the original comment in this thread. I should have made it more clear that I'm not saying that engineers/developers can't/won't develop easy-to-use products, nor do they enjoy using complex things. I just found that among the people I know who went to work for Microsoft, they tended to be the people who cared least about making things easy, and cared more about making things technically complicated. (the kind of people who, for example, use an instant messaging client to talk to someone across the room instead of merely speaking).
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    Ed @ 6/10/2002 7:52:47 PM #
    I'm always nervous when people bring up cars as an example. There are a lot of car enthusiasts out there and the conversations move quickly from "My Palm is like a Corvette" to "All GM cars suck" to "Richard Petty is my favorite driver". I'm just trying to be proactive before things go off topic.

    ---
    News Editor
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:11:49 PM #
    My post about the "Inmates" was very on-topic Ed -- it had almost nothing to do with automobiles and everything to do with computer software and hardware design.

    -Brett

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 8:13:25 PM #
    The car analogies are actually quite relevant.

    Heh, and one of the better metaphors for the PPC handhelds is the "Homer-mobile" (you folks, DID see that episode of the Simpsons, right?)

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:59:26 PM #
    Oh yeah, i saw that and you know the ending!
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:58:27 PM #
    My car crashes less often than a PPC.
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:16:02 AM #
    Let Microsoft have the desktop. Palm owns the PDA. Sony owns the game consoles. Linux owns the TV set top boxes (tivo, replaytv, moxi, liberate, etc). Symbian and Palm will duke it out for the smartphone category. Welcome to the post-pc era
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:55:17 AM #
    "Handheld computers must be trivial to use; the "killer feature" is the ability to help you quickly do something else in the real-world -- not be a "cool toy"..."

    This is probably the most important issue for Palm and its licensees (and others?) to recognize. I use a PalmOS handheld in order to have all my notes, schedules, reminders, etc. in one place, and quickly retreivable. There are many other bells and whistles available for the PalmOS that are interesting and fun, but if it doesn't make it easy for me to keep my sh*t together, it's failing at its job. K.I.S.S.

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:40:02 AM #
    *Preventing the off-topicness*
    Sony rules the console world? Hardly. It rules the home-based console. Nintendo's GBA outsells 'em all. But I'll just say that the PSX/PS2 was only successful because of Nintendo. Nintendo made the 32 bit CD-ROM SNES add-on with Sony a LONG time ago, the "Play Station Xtreme." Ties broke, and Sony released it themselves. They don't make ANY games whatsoever, just like the Clié(Barring basic programs). They make good hardware, and if they ever "kill" PalmSource, then they'll be SOL.
    ...that didn't stay on topic as much as I'd like, but at least it ended on a PalmOS note.
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    swinginjonny @ 6/11/2002 9:16:42 AM #
    I've used car analogies for a long time to explain the differences between the PPC and Palm philosophies. As long as they are truly analogies I think they're topical. Non-techies have a hard time understanding sometimes and I've noticed they understand cars better. I often describe the PPC philosophy as taking a fantastic BMW engine and deciding that since it works so well in cars it would work just as well on a motorcycle. Microsoft thinks the same way.

    (Self-confessed Palm Geek)
    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:50:29 AM #
    BMW makes great motorsycles too! ;)

    Kindest Regards

    BMW and PPC entousiast

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:03:55 PM #
    Just a short reply to the person who said Palm is the Standard for PDA, and MS Office is the standard for office app.

    Standards change.

    Even in the case of word applications. Word Perfect was THE standard for the longest time, until MS came along and stirred things up. Now, the standard is MS.

    People change, habbits change, standards change.

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/27/2002 9:02:39 AM #
    People change, habbits change, standards change.

    ..and eventually MS will do its darndest to make it the standard...they're a business, that's what they do!

    RE: The problem with MS: its employees
    I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 4:58:10 PM #
    And I thought "Engineer", "Programmer" and "Designer" type of guys are supposed to be shooting for *ELEGANT*. Say, a new database search sub-routine that does faster searches while uses less power. Or a GUI design that displays more useable info with less space...

    Ah well, at least that's what I was thinking anyways...

    Brave soul!

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:46:39 PM #
    I don't disagree. Good to take a stand and get the discussion going.

    ...swapping out my keyboard and mouse for Nomex fireproofed ones.

    RE: Brave soul!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:03:05 PM #
    you disagree and yet make no statement with regards to your own opinion?
    RE: Brave soul!
    jackie_bebe @ 6/10/2002 9:31:37 PM #
    hehe. maybe you should read his post again. :) he said, "i DON'T disagree". it's a double negative :)

    Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 4:54:57 PM #
    It seems that sony is linking PPC and palmOS. the worst of both worlds! PPC's short battery life and Palms 4.1 OS.
    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:03:16 PM #
    hey, donn't compare 2 hrs with 6 hrs.
    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:11:12 PM #
    Can we talk about weeks here??? im not talking about "hours of useability". i want Days at least! or the least thing they can do is put a dam* removable battery.
    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    robrecht @ 6/10/2002 7:13:21 PM #
    Removable battery is the way to go for now, but must be careful not to lose data.

    Thanks, Robrecht
    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    jackie_bebe @ 6/10/2002 9:32:56 PM #
    the problem with this debate about battery life is that not everyone decides to sit down for 2 hours at a time to read an e-book, or maybe watch a gmovie of smallville. most conventional users would use their pda's to just check a contact, schedule or whatever. i myself use my clie at school, typing away on my stowaway at length during the day, and have yet to have the battery die before the day is over, not to mention it charges in the few minutes i leave it in the cradle to sync and surf a little (like on PIC). i've even gone over 2 school days without charging, and that's even while using it during class with the keyboard. the same can't be said for the ppc though, as my friend has the same stowaway+pda combo (ipaq38xx), but his battery starts yelping after an hour-long meeting.

    maybe until the tech is available for ultra-long battery life pda's, you should count your blessings... we've yet to (always) lug our charger around "just in case" our batteries run out.

    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    latortilla @ 6/10/2002 10:47:56 PM #
    While some casual users may not have problems plugging their PDAs into the cradle every night, significant numbers of PDA users are faced with time or environmental constraints that make this practice unfeasible.

    For example, hospital residents are often on call for more than 12 hours at a time, leaving them with little time to wait for their PDAs, on which they have valuable drug and bug references, to charge. I also see people who travel long distances or to other countries frequently having difficulty finding the time or opportunity to charge their PDA every night.

    For these users, which surely comprise no small portion of PDA users, a device featuring long battery life and replaceable batteries would be of immeasurable boon.

    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    Altema @ 6/11/2002 12:08:16 AM #
    "the problem with this debate about battery life is that not everyone decides to sit down for 2 hours at a time to read an e-book"

    You are right on the money.
    Most handheld companies arrived at the estimate of 30 minutes per day being average based on observation and testing. There are extremes in either direction. Some people I know use their device for about 10 minutes per WEEK. Others use them for several hours per day, but it usually averages out in the end when you add the groups together. Either way you look at it though, a device with a 5 hour battery life will not die 5 hours after you remove it from the cradle unless it is on the entire time. 5 hours works out to ten days for the "Average Joe". Even the Palm OS devices with the worst battery life would make it through one of my average days (which are pretty exterme themselves), with only the unusual days getting me in trouble. Heck, even when I still had a IIIe I would go through a set of batteries per week. The list of things I use my Palm for in a day would be longer than I care to write at this time, but everthing work related saves me a huge amount of time. In light of this, I'm grateful for a device just as reliable as my old IIIe, smaller, faster, has 72 times the memory, and I don't have to break out in a sweat if I find out the battery is half empty on the way to work.

    I could be wrong, but it seems there used to be a large difference in "standby" time between the 2 competing OS's, with PPC consuming more power while in the "off" mode. I have seen M505's go for well over a month in standby, while one of my best friends has to charge his iPaq every few days, even if he does not use it, and every night if he does use it. Is this standby drain still pretty big on the PPC2002?

    RE: I expect better at PIC
    dethblud @ 6/11/2002 12:21:08 AM #
    It's been my experience that I almost never am without a chance to charge my Palm. There are enough options out there for charging on the go that it shouldn't be a problem for the vast majority of people. When I'm at work, I have a cradle I leave my Palm in whenever I'm not using it, same with at home. For those who travel there are travel chargers that plug into cars and wall outlets and such. Even someone who works a 12 hour shift at a hospital certainly has a lunch break when they can pop their handheld into a charger. I can't think of any reasonable situation where the battery life on current PalmOS handhelds is not sufficient for at least one day of use. And if you're using your handheld for recreational things like whatching movies which use up the battery fast and consume a lot of time, you obviously also have time on your hands to charge your handheld.

    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts long!
    swinginjonny @ 6/11/2002 1:55:03 PM #
    There are even mobile chargers that charge your rechargeable battery using a couple of AAAs. Battery life also depends on so many other things, though. If you just HAVE to have color, you sacrifice battery life. It's all about priorities. I love color and don't need the extra battery life so I chose appropriately.

    (Self-confessed Palm Geek)
    RE: Are you listening sony? we like batteries that lasts lon
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:07:45 PM #
    True Sony's devices (NR70V) doesn't last long at top brightness, but lower the brightness to mininum (still brighter than a m505), and you get battery life that's comparable to a Palm m515.
    RE: Are you listening sony? its a PDA!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:54:41 PM #
    does every know what PDA meants? its personal digital assitant.. its suppose to assist you.. not the other way around.it seems that people are now trying to keep their assistant alive by bringing travel chargers.

    The enterprise market is the decider!

    seanhennessy @ 6/10/2002 5:05:31 PM #
    So far MS have done a great job at selling their OS to the enterprise, emphasising security and stability. The stability part of course is a bit of a stretcher, but until OS5 they had a point about the security. Now it's up to Palm to get the message out to the enterprise about security and integration in OS 5, and win back the tech heads there. I hope they succeed.

    Why is enterprise so important? Because it's the only remaining market sector (in Europe & US anyway) with any real growth potential.

    RE: The enterprise market is the decider!
    Ed @ 6/10/2002 5:24:03 PM #
    I also put this in above but just in case...

    Several recent studies have shown that Microsoft hasn't done all that good a job at enterprise sales. Gartner Group recently calculated that in 2001, Palm OS licensees accounted for more than 50% of handhelds sold to large companies and government organizations worldwide, compared to 32% for Pocket PC licensees, 1% for Symbian, and 16% for other operating systems.

    I'm not sure where this idea came from that Pocket PCs were selling like hotcakes to the enterprise. A while back, David Nagel called it the triumph of wishful thinking over the facts.

    ---
    News Editor

    RE: The enterprise market is the decider!
    seanhennessy @ 6/10/2002 7:11:44 PM #
    Hmmm... maybe I've been reading too much PPC hype these days! I went looking for some data to back up the assertion that PPC seemed to be winning in the enterprise market and guess what? I couldn't find any. We all know about MS's persistance in the pursuit of their goals, but it seems this one has been elusive so far. On the other hand they do seem to have succeeded in creating the illusion of success (fooled me anyway!), which unfortunately can bring the reality about.

    But of course it's still true that the enterprise battle is only beginning, and MS can still pull this one off.

    RE: The enterprise market is the decider!
    melopsittacus @ 6/11/2002 3:54:21 AM #
    Business history supports this conclusion. M$ beat Apple because of its alliance with IBM. IBM owned the enterprise market. Apple (at the time) owned the mindshare of the average joe. Who went on to dominate? It is also interesting to note that IBM at the time was being hounded by the Justice Department for monopolistic behaviors. Hmmm, who does that apply to now? Anyway, the enterprise market is simply where the biggest bucks are, and although Palm leads in this market, neither Palm nor Pocket PC have made much inroads. Simply put, there isn't much of a reason, yet, for IT buyers to spend money on handhelds. There are two reasons for this.

    1) They are already spending money on desktops / employee.
    2) What does the handheld permit a user to do that a desktop and/or a mobile phone can't?

    In my opinion this second reason is the biggy. Anyone remember Lotus? Lotus was the company that made the first killer app for desktop PC's -- a spreadsheet. Even with the backing of IBM, M$ would not have won over the enterprise market without Lotus. M$ built the platform. IBM provided the muscle. But Lotus provided the *desire*.

    I do not necessarily agree with Ed that the Palm OS is the inevitable "winner". The Palm OS will eventually become irrelevant (just as M$ DOS would have) if a kiler app does not emerge for the platform. Yes, the Palm OS is simple, intuitive and is great at being a portable database (it could push this a little more, I think). But, until it acquires that additional function that makes it absolutely necessary for the enterprise market, it won't really matter whether it is more successful than M$ because people will begin to lose interest. Whoever dreams up this "function" will become quite rich as will whichever OS - Palm or PocketPC - is the beneficiary.

    Right conclusion, wrong reasons

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:01:02 PM #
    The technology isn't the reason why. Neither is the "Zen of Palm". There have been more powerful and easier to use devices than Palms brought out earlier.

    Why did Palm succeed?

    1. They found a market for a device form that all others abandoned as unprofitable.
    2. The devices were reasonably cheap. (A benefit of not pushing the hardware.)
    3. The technology was old and well known. (Cheap to design & build.)

    Why will they succeed in the future?

    1. They'll retain a cost advantage over Pocket PCs.
    2. As PDAs move into the low-cost laptop market, PC OEMs would rather sell a $1200 laptop than a $500 PDA. (Namely HP/Compaq and Toshiba.)
    3. Microsoft would rather sell a $65 PC windows license than a $10 WinCE license.
    4. And as you said, Palms now have caught up hardware wise.

    In the world of electronics, cheapest while still getting the job done almost always wins. Palm is not only the cheapest, but MS et. al. have good reasons not to want the PDA market to succeed, which will slowly sabatoge their long term efforts in this area.

    Todd.

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:44:27 PM #
    You might be right, but aren't PDAs only going to grow more ubiquitous and more powerful in the coming years? Are you saying Microsoft's greediness will sabotage its own efforts in the PDA market, because I find it hard to believe they would be that foolish, even if in the short run it makes more sense to promote PCs over PPCs.

    Because of the size difference, PDAs will never catch up with desktops, even as PDAs become vastly more powerful within a small form factor. So in any given year, the latest version of desktop Windows will not be able to fit reasonably in a PDA. Therefore, I think there will always be a distinct OS--not necessarily in coding or interface but in ability and power--for handhelds that is different from desktop devices. And desktops will always command a higher price. So it seems unlikely that Microsoft will ever get away with charging the same for minature computers/handhelds as they do for desktop OS's.

    I'm all for a little well-deserved M$ bashing, but I find it hard to believe they would shoot themselves in the foot like this. Surely they understand that handhelds and desktops will never have the same capability and therefore their OS's cannot have identical pricing.

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:06:41 PM #
    ..and they say those mini VAX won't catch on and compete against full size mainframe. Than later the same comment about those underpowered PC vs mainframe with terminal network.
    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:35:31 PM #
    PDAs don't need to catch up with desktops. You're confusing technology with the market.

    Lets say you had a PDA with a cradle that had a wireless KB & mouse hooked up to it, a flat screen monitor, hard disk, and dvd player. Software being compariable in functionality to the current desktop software. Then you'd effectively have a desktop replacement. (You can make a similar thing for laptops.)

    The reason that this can happen is because a 1Ghz machine is pretty much fast enough to run all business software right now. In 3-4 years, PDAs will be at 1Ghz+.

    This means that PDAs (with accessories) can first "disrupt" laptops and then desktops. (Read "The Innovator's Delima".)

    When/If that happens, MS will have fewer PC OS sales at $65 each, and more PPC OS sales at about $10 each. This would amount to billions less each year in MS's core product line.

    This isn't about MS being greedy either. MS's financials are set up to expect $15B+ per year from Windows + Office. If PPC would "win" the PDA war, and then disrupt PCs, it could amount to a loss of $10B+ per year. Not even MS could withstand that for long. And it would be realy, Really, REALLY tough for them to change the company to live with less.

    Do you really think that there won't be anyone at MS fighting the changes needed to be done? Especially with this much money at stake? MS is already very famous for bloody turf wars.

    Read "The Innovator's Delima". This is one situation in which it fully applies.

    Todd.

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:27:52 PM #
    "MS will have fewer PC OS sales at $65 each, and more PPC OS sales at about $10 each. This would amount to billions less each year in MS's core product line."

    I am all for bashing M$ when they do things wrong... but I really don't know what world you live in... haven't you EVER HEARD of trying to cover a new market to increase your share on both (by the way typical M$ behaviour).

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:22:48 PM #
    Now, you can sell a copy of windows for each household -how many have more than one computer?- but you can put a PDA in almost any person...

    So $65.00 or $10.00 per software unit is not the point, is how many copies you can sell of each.

    But this doesn´t consider the corporate market, anyway

    Just a littel thougth

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:06:27 PM #
    I have 5 computers!
    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:29:05 PM #
    "I am all for bashing M$ when they do things wrong... but I really don't know what world you live in... haven't you EVER HEARD of trying to cover a new market to increase your share on both (by the way typical M$ behaviour)."

    Of course I've heard of it. It just usually work well with a disruptive technology. MS's customers are *not* going to all fit into the nice and tidy boxes that MS wants to put them into. If people right now could buy PPC machines (w/ free office) *right now* that could fully replace their PC for only $500, don't you think that that would cut into full PC sales?

    There are people *right now* replacing their laptops with PDA/folding KB combos. In 3 years what might happen?

    Please, read up about disruptive technology, and how it impacts a market. Repeatedly large, well run companies have been crippled and even gone under because they didn't understand it. For example, when hard drives went from 8"->5.25"->3.5", the market leader in total HD sales changed after each transition. These were disruptive changes, because they changed the inital target market and lowered the price per unit. On the other hand, incredible breakthroughs such as new HD head technologies have never changed the market leader because they targeted the current markets.

    Now we get to creating a new market in order to grow both. This works fine for most things, including the start of a disruptive technology. However disruptive technology sales eventually start cutting into the higher margin sales of the major market. It's well documented by many case studies how difficult it is for a company to go down in margins. A PC->PPC transition would be an incredible drop in margins for MS.

    As for selling more copies of each, I think that if MS could get WinXP to run on a PPC, they would be really happy about charging $65+ a pop for each PPC sold. A PPC is nearly the price of a PC, and 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a laptop, but MS only makes ~15% of what they would make otherwise (less if office is taken into account). They need to have 7 PPCs sold to match 1 PC.

    Todd.

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:04:16 AM #
    a computer in every room including maybe an imac on the coffee table and at least 2 Palms: a regular sized Palm and a Palmphone. gotta love technology!
    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    Altema @ 6/11/2002 12:49:35 AM #
    "There are people *right now* replacing their laptops with PDA/folding KB combos. In 3 years what might happen?"

    Yep! I'm one of 'em. I use my laptop primarily for our work request system (for which the Palm interface never materialized), and for surfing the web. My Palm will do the surfing fine, but NO handheld has a screen that I'd prefer to a full size laptop display.

    You know which students get to class first? The ones with the laptops and PPC's... they all try to sit near a wall outlet. Me? I have not written anything on my laptop for over a year, as I prefer my Palm PPK combo over my laptop or desktop.

    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:07:19 AM #
    I agree with the original poster of this thread. Palm only wins with increase in PDA sale/popularity. To underscore the above point, consider that the average household only has so much $$$ per year that they will spend on electronics/computer devices (the same applies to corporate IT departments). PPCs may cost 1/2 of what a PC costs (actually - they are increasingly the same price) but MS is only getting $10 (assuming the best case scenario of that PDA actually being a PPC) instead of $65. Of course, if that home/IT budget is going towards the purchase of a Palm OS pda, then its purely a winning situation for Palm.
    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:28:22 AM #
    the clie NR form factor is a truly unique solution to those who want a really tiny laptop without taking too much space like tablet pc but still offers a nice screen and seperate kb.
    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:59:51 AM #
    Yeah, but I'm just bothered by the button placement. Does anybody know if Targus is making a fold-out keyboard for it? I like using my whole hand to type. Thumbing just isn't me.
    RE: Right conclusion, wrong reasons
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:23:40 AM #
    on talk about margin as preventing MS to go after handheld. If MS doens't do it, somebody else will, and MS knows this.

    that's why the invest heavily on phone and handheld so massively. Desktop revenue will be comparatively puny to the future handheld related items. It's simply because of its higher replacement rate and ubiquituosness. You wanna sell 20 titles at $5 with 60% margin a pop via wireless internet or a $80 shrink wrap with 50% margin?

    you be the judge.

    Facts, without bias...
    Foo Fighter @ 6/11/2002 3:16:13 PM #
    The Giga Group offers a more accurate assessment of the PDA market.

    Read:

    http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20020328S0007

    Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:22:44 PM #
    Only poor white trailer trash use PPC units. I know for a fact. My sleazy ****buddy of a girlfriend lives in a trailer park and all the neighborhood losers carry PPC units, mainly stolen. They keep trying to sell them to me. I keep telling them no-one uses those things anyways.

    PWT

    RE: Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.
    tipds @ 6/10/2002 5:36:20 PM #
    Ummm... What's the saying I'm looking for...

    "Sleep with dogs, wake with fleas."

    I hate to be the one to tell you, but having a ****buddy is the domain of trailor trash. It's not the "house" you live in that makes you poor-white-trash, it's the "you".

    I don't mean to be offensive. I just hope you can see the comments you made are fairly inflamatory, and they don't convey a great deal of "high-brow-ness" either.

    Respectfully,
    Tip DS

    RE: Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:50:09 PM #
    That's not fair to limit PPC users to trailer trash. I know lots of people that just want to listen to MP3's and flash their PPC gizzmos around. They even put 2 or 3 contacts and appointments once in a while.
    RE: Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:34:35 PM #
    "Only poor white trailer trash use PPC units. I know for a fact. My sleazy ****buddy of a girlfriend lives in a trailer park and all the neighborhood losers carry PPC units, mainly stolen. They keep trying to sell them to me. I keep telling them no-one uses those things anyways."

    Your ****buddies wouldn't have anything stolen to sell if someone with enough resources had bought it in the first place.

    I don't like PPC but when someone jumps into such a stupid conclusion, he deserves to be called stupid!!!

    RE: Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:02:00 AM #
    The reason my friends got PPC's is for the mp3's and the fact on Microsoft's website they lie about features when they compare the two OS's.(In about a month, the list will become nothing.) As soon as I show them Wordsmith, Bejeweled, other games and programs, and a REAL mp3 player that is JUST an mp3 player, they regret having a poor return policy. I take my Rio pmp300 everywhere. It has about 20 hours of life on a single AA battery, connects to my computer and runs off of cheap SM cards. A PPC needs constant recharging and uses power-draining CF cards or cramped internal memory. Why bother?
    Ed
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:51:52 AM #
    No offense, but can you tell me why you haven't commented on the clearly inappropriate nature of this post, yet you were quick to point out the problems you had with the guy that called you an "ANALyst?"
    I know you favor Palm over PPC, but let's be fair to users of both platforms.
    RE: Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:12:43 AM #
    Wake up, Mr. Snobbish:
    here in Europe there are no trailer parks nor white trash. Here, people that use their PDA use it for WORKS, not as elite badges, so me and some of my friends use PPC 'cos we want to bring with us our everyday work (Excel sheets, Word docs) without spending extra money for "program conduits"; some other of my friends use PALMs 'cos they manage better their emails and online catalogs for their different job necessities. We like each other - we have no time to waste in stupid classroom brawls.
    Peace, man.
    RE: Long live palm: the OS of the wise and wealthy.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:40:32 AM #
    Whoever said Ed had to be fair!!! this is Palminfocenter, not letsbefairinfocenter!!

    Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:23:27 PM #
    Simple: Because PalmOS is easy to use. Not everyone on the planet is a computer wiz. I still spend countless amounts of time with friends and relatives helping them do basic tasks on their PCs. Your average Joe/Jane does not want to carry that hellish nightmare in their pocket. I could give anyone of the aforementioned people a Palm PDA and they would be up and running in no time.

    And who-ever came up with "Smart-Minimize" should be shot. I'm sure we'll see problems with the PalmOS as it tries to do more and more, but for the basics (which is what most people are after), it shines.

    GB

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:22:11 AM #
    >>Your average Joe/Jane does not want to carry that hellish nightmare in their pocket.

    LOL. So true:)

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:37:41 AM #
    YES, YES, YES, YES! Within minutes of using a PPC for the first time, i was completley baffled by the obvious stupidity of this unbelieably bad design descision. I've even tried to get a discussion going on this subject in PIC several times (no takers - which makes me think that many Palm users don't actually understand what they are flaming and havent used a PPC). In any event there back-peddling in PPC 2002 is hilarious - a lame fix for a bad design descision (I CANT SAY ENOUGH HOW BAFFLED I AM - imagine not being able to close a freaking app without 10 clicks to get to an obcure system menu!!!). Heres what MS has to say in a doc titled "What's New for Developers in the Pocket PC 2002" on there dev site:

    http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/developer/technicalarticles/whatsnew2002.asp

    ...check the heading 'Smart Minimize' aprox halfway down the page.

    Can you believe this???? In other words, the user now doesn't know whther or not the app closed or minimized!! They will never win the PDA war.

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    jkirvin @ 6/11/2002 10:27:40 AM #
    The user doesn't have to know. If the system bogs down from too many open apps, it will start automatically closing idle apps behind the scenes. If you want more control, you can always install freeware like WISbar, which lets you close an app with a single tap. And before you flame me about needing to install third party software to address an OS "deficiency", what's X-Master?

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:49:12 PM #
    With PPC, you can download free software (like GigaBar) which will either close your programs or minimize them.

    Why minimizing is a good thing (although MS should have included an option to close): If you need to keep switching back and forth between something (like contact list and e-mail), you can do it without losing everything.

    As for ease of use, stop whining. I figured out how to use my first PPC in about 20 minutes. What's so hard to understand? Give some examples, and we'll see.

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:53:56 PM #
    PalmOS saves everything--why leave an app open if closing it doesn't lose anything?
    M$: Well, if it is good enough for PC...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:02:58 PM #
    Example of Microsoft's lack of thought: Solitaire. It's bundled with Windows, therefore, it should be bundled with Pocket Windows, right? Well, on a desktop it doesn't matter which side of the screen you put the deck on because you're using a mouse to control a tiny cursor. You can't just port it down and have the same quality--on a handheld you have to deal with people being right or left-handed! I hate reaching across what I'm trying to see all the time move through the deck. The M$ version doesn't even have an option to switch it. Every single PalmOS solitaire program I've ever seen has the option to switch deck position. Big deal? Of course not, but it demonstrates the differences between the platforms and why people prefer Palm. If M$ would stop thinking "PocketPC" and think more about what the real uses are they might have a chance.
    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:36:53 PM #
    I disagree with you totally

    I am an avid user of both handheld types, and Palm OS is definately not any easier to use. It is just different to use.

    And that one touch launching is stupid as well. Pocket PC can do two taps to launch a program, the Palm OS usually requires 3 (depending on category).

    Stability is another rumor. If anything, PPC is more stable.

    Battery life is another myth, atleast recently. The HP jornada gets 14 hours, while most color Palms get less.

    I am not promoting PPC, I use both.

    While I'm on my rant, the Palm OS may have more programs, but all the major areas on PPC are covered.


    Interesting...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:22:38 PM #
    Has anyone else used both and found anything similar? Not to sound like I'm knocking the previous poster--it's more that I want to find out how much is unique to his/her experience and how much is broader and perhaps overlooked by most people out there.
    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 12:31:57 AM #
    I disagree with you totally

    I am an avid user of both handheld types, and PPC is definately[sic] not any easier to use. It is just different to use.

    And that one touch launching is stupid as well. Palm OS can do one tap to launch a program, the Pocket PC usually requires 3 (depending on category).

    Stability is another rumor. If anything, Palm OS is more stable.

    Battery life is another myth, atleast recently. The Sony PEG-NR70V gets 14 hours, while most color PPCs get less.

    I am not promoting Palm OS, I use both.

    While I'm on my rant, the PPC may have less programs, but all the major areas on Palm OS are covered.

    WHAT ARE YOU PPC TROLLS TALKING ABOUT?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:01:47 AM #
    >>>The user doesn't have to know. If the system bogs down from too many open apps, it will start automatically closing idle apps behind the scenes. If you want more control, you can always install freeware like WISbar, which lets you close an app with a single tap. And before you flame me about needing to install third party software to address an OS "deficiency", what's X-Master?

    Bull. Are you a complete moron? Has anybody out there used a PPC for an extended period of time? PPC may close down apps after enough are running - but you will experience MAJOR slow down before this - i am a ****ing app developer who has free access to Palm and PPC devices - ANY ONE defending this boner of a MS design flaw is insane!!!! (why the hell do you think MS *tried* (lamely) to fix this in 2002? this is the most blatent example of brand loyalty denial i have ever seen! NEWS FLASH: unless you tap at 5(!)times to get to the 'running programs' menu on PPC in order to close it - your subsequent apps run slower! COME ON - don't ****in lie on PIC just to justify yr purchase - this is the dumbest thing in any modern OS - and by all defintions of PDA OS usability WINS MY PERSONAL AWARD FOR DUMBEST INTERFACE IDEA EVER (it's a PDA - so not having a keyboard and mouse means the OS is supposed to counter this by requiring less to do the same - NOT 5 times more!!!!). Don't tell me
    that : "the user doesnt have to know" : the user (if they have any sense of sanity - BLOODY WELL KNOWS A SLOW DOWN AS SEVERE AS PPC CAUSES WHEN NOT SHUTING DOWN APPS - when they experience it - or maybe yr a moron incapable of understanding the obvious. Sure - lots on PIC readers will be pissed for my blatent flaming here - but just use a PPC instead of bitching about it - its worse then you think. As for this poster - you have to be a moron or a liar - which is it?

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:19:29 PM #
    duuuuude - chill out. what you do is go to download.com, download free gigabar, and install it, and then with a directional you can close programs. with a different directional tap you can minimize programs. you can also customize it to change your volume, and go to all the different settings. sheesh. bottom line - dl the software, and you only need 1 tap.
    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    Akeldama @ 6/12/2002 4:25:47 PM #
    I'm sure that this will only end up being a fruitless endeavor, but I'm going to go against my gut feeling and try to inject a bit of honesty as well as some facts into this discussion.

    Mr. Developer, it's obvious from your CAPS laden tirade that you feel strongly about several issues with the PPC devices. Before I even get started, I'll list a little bit of my experience with handheld devices to help you better understand where I'm coming from. I've owned several different Newtons (fine machines those were too!), a Psion Revo, multiple Palm OS devices (starting with the original Palm Pilot and growing from there, the last of which was the M515), as well as many WinCE OS units starting with v1.0 of the OS (clamshells with keyboards) leading all the way up to the first PsPC's and now the PPC and PPC2K2. My current "daily driver" PDA is an original iPaq 3630 with a silver slider CF sled and the PPC OS. So I suppose that you could say that I've used quite a few different platforms, models and OSes.

    I seriously doubt that you will find too many takers when it comes to defending Microsoft's decision to not give users an easy way of closing running applications on the PPC and PPC2K2 OSes. Taking five taps to access a list of running applications is ludicrous. However, installing a simple task switcher / closer is quite trivial, and the very best ones are freeware; WISbar and Gigabar are the two that instantly come to mind. So, the installation of a small program gives you instant access to a nice little close icon that gives you the functionality Microsoft choose to leave out. That surely makes this a non-issue.

    Which now brings us to your severe slow down issues. The only time that I have ever noticed a severe slow down on a PPC or PPC2K2 device are when Microsoft Reader or Windows Media Player are running in the background. These two applications, more than any other, cause slowdown issues when they are running with other applications active. Leaving the OS to manage the running applications shows no noticable slow down on the device as you switch between running apps, or as the device shuts down running apps while you launch new ones. However, this is only the case when the above listed applications are not left open and running. Those particular applications are real resource hogs, and can really bog the system down. But again, with the installation of a freeware utility, that slowdown can be completely eliminated.

    I have performed many tests on several different models of PPC's, and that slowdown issue doesn't occur unless one or more of those two applications are running in conjunction with several other applications. By avoiding those two; launching new apps, or switching between running apps is nearly instantaneous. So, once again, using a freeware utility to close down those two specific apps eliminates this issue. If you wish to take it a step further, why not install some third party applications, and completely eliminate the need to run those two any longer?

    Why do you seem to have such an aversion to installing a simple freeware app on the PPC? Or to replace the offending apps with others that don't cause these issues? Surely you have quite a few hacks installed on your tweaked out Palm OS PDA, as well as some applications that enhance or replace the ones included on your PDA's ROM. Why is this very same thing heresy on the PPC?

    - Joseph

    RE: Why the Palm OS Is the Inevitable Winner
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/13/2002 1:22:57 AM #
    Joseph,

    Interesting post. I wasn't aware that the PPC system slowdowns I've experienced were primarily due to those two applications.

    Cheers.

    an ANALyst

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:41:44 PM #
    Gee, an ANALyst in the making...
    RE: an ANALyst
    Ed @ 6/10/2002 5:47:35 PM #
    Look kids, we got our first Pocket PC troll. Normally I delete troll comments but this one was particularly unintelligent so I thought I'd let it stand as an example of the type of comments the pro-PPC crowd leave.

    It isn't even all that good a pun. It's been used about five thousand times already.

    ---
    News Editor

    RE: an ANALyst
    WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 6/10/2002 5:47:51 PM #
    > Gee, an ANALyst in the making...

    I bet you're proud of yourself and think that was clever.

    It wasn't.

    fundamental probs of pocketpc

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 5:26:45 PM #
    on the one hand Microsoft feels it is an advantage if pocketpc (windows on your pda) works the same way as Windows on your desktop. Problem: the screen is too small and the input is completely different so they need a completely different feel for their pocketpc. So either you have to learn a new UI (thus no similarity advantage) or you have one that doesn't work for a PDA

    Problem number 2: Microsoft feels that the Office series is a good formula and so is their approach to bundling. The problem is that Office and IE achieved dominance in the PC world because Microsoft took what they saw from Netscape, Lotus and Wordperfect. Only then did they decided to bundle. Now they bundle a bunch of apps that are not the same as their desktops equivalents and their is no competition to shape them up.

    Problem number 3: Microsoft's approach in the desktop is that hard drives will always get bigger and you can upgrade your PC in other ways. However in the PDA world you can't stick a hard drive because of batteries and the only way to upgrade your PDA is buy selling your old one on ebay and buying a new one. You can't take out your cpu or plug in a new video card.

    Now that PalmOS 5 is finally out (though we still need to wait for actual devices) and Palm's already high marketshare, I find it hard to see how Microsoft could overcome these problems.

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:14:58 PM #
    1 - PPC sort of uses the Windoze desktop interface. Similar enough to make you think you know what you're doing, and different enough to screw you over.

    2 - Palm Office apps have better sycing with the desktop than M$ ones. Amazing what competition does.

    3 - Why does my mom need a 2GHz PC with 64MiB of video RAM, 40GiB of hard drive, etc etc just to get her email. It was never a good idea on the desktop IMHO.

    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    e-mailing mom
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:39:31 PM #
    "3 - Why does my mom need a 2GHz PC with 64MiB of video RAM, 40GiB of hard drive, etc etc just to get her email. It was never a good idea on the desktop IMHO."
    Who forced your mom to get a bangin' system? She could have saved some dough and skimped on some of those features, no?
    It's all about choices.
    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:50:01 PM #
    Have you tried buying a cheap 300MHz PC with a 5GiB hard drive and a 2 year warrenty from a reputable supplier recently?

    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:17:18 PM #
    but a desktop PC user has no problem adding more mhz, hard drive space etc. But there is a cost to a PDA user-it sucks your battery dry. And batteries will never catch up to the many things we can think of to enhance a computer
    HardDrives
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 10:23:47 PM #
    Well, you can always use a larger removable storage card, either solid-state (CF, SD, MS) or an IBM microdrive.

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:00:38 AM #
    theoretically. but don't expect PDA's to have microdrives built in because they soak battery life like a sponge. So the Microsoft philosophy of "bloat is ok because they can just buy a few extra gigs cheap" just doesn't work anymore
    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:16:59 AM #
    One of the biggest problems with PPC is that the Pocket Word does not preserve formatting! I can't transfer documents to the PPC and actually use them. Sure you have to purchase 3rd party software for your Palm to have word processor functionallity, but at least the formatting is preserved.

    If there was any doubt in my mind who would win the PDA battle, it was resolved the first time I sync'd a word document with my PPC.

    TB
    ---------------

    Can't wait to see the Sony Palm OS 5.0 device.

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:53:54 PM #
    What the heck is so hard about syncing a word document on PPC? You just put your PPC in the cradle, click explore, and drag your word document where you need it?
    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:01:35 PM #
    Hello! It's not the syncing that the problem! The FORMATTING of the word document IS NOT PRESERVED! Documents look different! If you have product descriptions lined up with prices (for example) they are LOST or CHANGED!!!!

    This is one version of Word talking to another version of Word. Why can't they make it work?

    TB

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:50:55 PM #
    >>Sure you have to purchase 3rd party software for your Palm to have word processor

    Not always true: Palm and Sony handhelds include Documents to go (the best syncronizing office suite for palm OS). And New Handspring treos include Wordsmith.

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:48:45 PM #
    Palm requires document conversion. That, by itself makes the PocketPC the ideal choice for writers.
    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:21:50 AM #
    >>>Palm requires document conversion. That, by itself makes the PocketPC the ideal choice for writers.

    Huh? have you read above thread? PPC word 'converts' as well - but does it worse.

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 4:47:54 PM #
    First of all, it doesn't have to convert anything, it does by default just because of file size, nothing else.

    Also, most writers will not often need tables, and other than that, there will not be a lot lost.

    Also, with Activesync it is much easier to move files between PDA and Desktop.

    RE: fundamental probs of pocketpc
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 5:14:23 PM #
    > Also, most writers will not often need tables, and other than that, there will not
    > be a lot lost.

    So there is something Pocket Word can't do, and your answer is "Most people don't need it". Isn't that that what you and you PPC buds have been attacking Palm users for about multimedia?

    A true story...

    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:05:38 PM #
    Don't tell anyone... but... Windoze is pretty good on the desktop. It was designed for the desktop and it's actually pretty good at it. Credit where credit is due.

    However, just because it works on the desktop dosn't meanit works elsewhere. It doesn't work as an enterprise server - why do you think HoTMaiL is running on UNIX servers? It doesn't work as a games console - unless you like the excuse "I beat your laptime... but then it crashed before I could save". And it doesn't work on a PDA.

    I could rant on about lots of techinical and interaction design reasons why, but today I'm going to tell you a story about handing over my PocketPC (PPC) development work to a college instead...

    Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin...

    I work for a company producing PDA software. I joined as the "Palm Guy", but kinda had to do the PPC development for a bit. I hated both using the PPCs (iPAQs and Trium Mondos) and developing for them. But I'm a Palm person - I'm going to be biased aren't I? The head of Intereaction Design (usability) agreed with me... but he previously worked for Apple including working on the Newton PDA, so he's going to hate anything M$ based too...

    A week ago or so one of our developers, skilled in PDA development and an expert user of them, having worked with Symbian development for most of his career, finished his current block of work. He's now taken over the PPC development. He's got nothing against M$ and regularly expressed bewliderment at people in the company slagging off PPC.

    So, last Thursday I handed everything over to him. We installed the free development environment on his PC - took a couple of tries... but hey, that's development for you. I Showed him how to debug on the device, and how to use the emulator. So... he played around with it a bit, and then we went for out bi-weekly company-provided drinking (best team building excecise ever :)

    To start with he didn't get the user interface. It was meant to be windows but the start menu was at the top and the menu was at the bottom. And right-click became tap-and-hold, and double tapping was impossible while walking as was entereing text on the virtual keyboard. But he was OK with it - it was a new system he wasn't used to...

    About 11am friday, a good hour after we rolled into work :), he complains that he can't debug. I looked over and saw the problem. We use a wireless LAN for the PDAs to access the network. He wasn't trying to access the server, so he hadn't bothered to turn the wiress LAN access port on. Well, you see an iPAQ with a Compaq wireless LAN card in that can't find a LAN to connect to spends a lot of time trying to find one. So much time in fact that there's no processor time left over to debug. I apologised for not mentioning this fact, we turned the wireless LAN on and it started to work. He started complaining about 802.11b being so crap - I pointed out that there was no such problem on my Visor with a Xircom 802.11b module...

    Later in the day he complained that when he tried to debug, the development system would hang. I told him it was quite normal, it just takes a few minutes to connect sometimes. He asked how I ever managed to develop on PDAs like this - I told him that on the Palm it took just a few seconds to connect. I showed him all the proccesses to kill to try and make it work better when it started going bad, and suggested the Three Finger Salute (ctrl-alt-del - ie reboot) if things still didn't work.

    He then decided that debuging on the device wasn't practical. So he tried the emulator. He was suprised to find that the emulator required making the application in a diferent way to making it for the device (had to rebuild for a different procesor for the developers out there...) He pointed out that an emulator emulates a devices hardware - and I pointed out that M$ never really conformed to standards - and that the PPC emulator is actually a simulator. It's a bit complicated, but an emulator pretends to be the device (eg - pretends to be an iPAQ) where a simulator runs the OS on the desktop machine. I pointed out that PalmOS has both Emulators for all available hardware, as well as a simulator.

    So he tried the PPC "emulator" and found it was not only unreliable (crashing and hanging all the time) but also didn't run our software properly, which works fine on many PPC devices without breaking any rules to do so. So he was back to the real device, Three Finger Salute and all. He wasn't happy - but what can he do - it's his job...

    So... we went home for the weekend. It was a 4-day weekend. Apparently the Queen of our country has been ruling without a mandate for the masses for 50 years - so we get a 4-day weekend. Ho hum...

    So, come back on Wednesday and he's shocked to find that his PPC is dead. He was so sure he didn't leave it turned on. I had to point out that PPC devices drink power even when turned off, and that 4 days without power when turned off can run them out of power. He didn't believe me - his Psion Series 5 hssn't run out of power over the long weekend and his phone had been on for the entire weekend without being charged. I had to rally round support from other employees to make him believe me.

    So, he plugged in the device and it booted up. He asked me how to skip the 'basic tutorial' you get when you turn on a device that's run out of power. I told him you couldn't. He started swearing.

    Once he'd got everything working again, he ran a few tests to check things were going OK. He ran a bunch of programs. Once all running, he wanted to know how to close them - there wasn't a Windoze 'X' in the top right. I showed him the iPAQ 'Q' button that allows you to kill tasks. He thought that was fine. Then I pointed out that it was a Compaq adition. Regular PPC devices, like the Trium Mondo we also use, don't have it. The way you stop a program on a regular PPC device it to do "Start->Settings->Device->Memory->Running Programs", then select the application to close and click close. He was so impressed with how intuative that was. Not. So I told him the easiest way to stop applications running was to simply reset the device. "How windoze" he said :)

    Today he was getting used to the system finally. He asked if there was some form of equivilent to the "keyboard shortcut" in windows. Like Ctrl-C for copy on the desktop. I told him there was - you bring up the keyboard and select the CTRL key then the C key. He pointed out that it wasn't much of a shortcut. I showed him how you do it on a Palm.

    No longer does he wonder why we don't like the PPC at work.

    Cheers
    Russell


    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: A true story...
    Kesh @ 6/10/2002 6:24:23 PM #
    LOL... now that's quite a story. Thanks for sharing. :)

    RE: A true story...
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:33:32 PM #
    wow - someone read it :)

    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
    RE: A true story...
    Pleis @ 6/10/2002 6:39:03 PM #
    How ironic. I was getting ready to post a story that sounded almost identical to this one. So to make things a whole lot more compact:

    ditto.

    RE: A true story... Use Ctrl+Q to close an app
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:47:04 PM #
    That's the way it's done. I never found this out
    until reading a WinCE developers book, but there
    you have it...

    GB

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:30:13 PM #
    Great story.

    There is just one incorrect fact: MSN does not use Unix. They use Windows XP server.

    All in all this story also evidences why there are so few PPC developers out there, it is a pain to develop for the PPC bloatware.

    RE: A true story...
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 8:53:39 PM #
    ROFL. Thanks for sharing that Russel (wiping a tears from my eyes).

    I've been undertaking my bi-annual "see where MS PDAs are at" with two state-of-the-art devices: the iPAQ H3875 and now the Toshiba e570. (I mean, *everyone* knows that MS finally "gets it right on the third try", so it should be pretty impressive, right?)

    Let's just say that so far, my experience is similar to yours - nicely stated.

    RE: A true story...
    Scott R @ 6/10/2002 9:52:24 PM #
    Clarification: One of the few (perhaps the only one) usability enhancements that the MS team actually got right was tap-and-hold. Using tap-and-hold you can perform actions such as cut/copy/paste.

    Scott

    See, M$ wins one way or another!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 10:08:39 PM #
    LOL. I cannot believe it. But I do believe it and it supports my post above (M$ will win...). With PocketWindows being such #$@% as you describe, how is it anyone puts resources into developing for it? Or, how is it that any enterprise, let alone 30% or so, actually want any in their work force? And how could a Symbian person (Psion had a great OS) be so ignorant and positive about M$? I hope and pray Ed and the good post-ers of this site are correct. But while you all have comforted me, I yet remain a pessimist.
    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:28:20 PM #
    I can not disagree more with this story. I am up to a point want to quit my job. I have been forced to developed a so called 'mobile enterprise solution' for our internal system. It has to be PPC because we (IT) can only accept M$'s products. Every single details related to PPC development is just my ugly daily life. I don't know how can I get over with it.

    I am under crunched timeline pressure because we thought PPC is just another type of windows. You never expect you have to use 3 fingers slute so often and you never know you need to program them differently for each models (HP, Casio, Compaq...) and OSs (PocketPC, PoctketPC 2002).

    I wish my boss find this thread (If I email him this link, that will be a little bit politically incorrect.) I may be able to stay in my company longer.


    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:13:16 AM #
    MS DOES use their own servers except for Hotmail. It's on Unix. Honest!
    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:31:29 AM #
    'MS DOES use their own servers except for Hotmail. It's on Unix. Honest!'
    I really want that to be true, because it's so funny/ironic, but it would be so easy to fabricate. Does anybody have any proof that HOTMAIL (as originally claimed, not MSN) is run on UNIX?
    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:11:27 AM #
    From The Register:

    Microsoft Hotmail still runs on U**x

    Microsoft admits it still hasn't upgraded its Hotmail system to Windows, almost four years after embarking on the task, and fifteen months after the first load balancing machines began to be shifted to Windows 2000 from FreeBSD.

    www.theregus.com/content/archive/23348.html

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:57:10 PM #
    just get gigabar and you don't hafta worry about programs still running (it's free)

    and if you complain about "third party apps" what about Palm's necessity to get third party apps to simply do MS word.

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:57:04 PM #
    If you want proof that Hotmail is running on Windows and not on Unix like some MS basher are saying just download IDserve, an exellent program form Gibson Research and do a query on www.hotmail.com.

    Donwload here: http://grc.com/id/idserve.htm

    The program can look the server software of a specific domain, on Hotmail they are using MS IIS on Windows XP. Definitely not Linux.

    Please don't take me as a Microsoft fan, I hate PPC crapware, but that does not mean that every Microsoft product is crap. Windows (on the desktop) is definitely a very powerful OS, but on the handheld this same power is what makes it useless.

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:03:58 PM #
    Where do you people come up with this stuff? Hotmail is running on 2k Server. Go to grc.com and download ID Serve. It will tell you what server software any webserver is running. Check hotmail.com and you will find that it is running on IIS5. Last I heard there were no version os IIS5 for Unix.

    I have been both a palm user and a CE/PPC user for several years now. Each device has its uses. That said while the NR70 is a good step forward for palm devices they still do not have the features for a power user such as myself. That is why I am getting ready to purchase a new 400 mhz x-scale ppc. That way I can still run VNC and other admin apps that I need on a daily basis.

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:07:28 PM #
    So you are saying The Register just totally made that story up? And Microsoft didn't sue them?

    > That way I can still run VNC and other admin apps that I need on a daily basis.

    Why not get the VNC client for the Palm? I use it all the time and it works great.

    www.harakan.btinternet.co.uk/PalmVNC/index.htm

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:24:47 PM #
    Try writing a SQL database application on PalmOS. Oh wait, you can't.
    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:10:53 PM #
    SQL database applications for the Palm... Well there are many ways to get database information on a Palm - that's what most enteprise PalmOS applications do. Companies like Extended Systems have software that will take any database information and synchorize it to a Palm. And then of course you have specialized software from both Sybase and Oracle for putting those DBs on a Palm.

    And as for HoTMaiL.com - you've nearly got me. Things have improved since theregister.co.uk did their article - more of the HoTMaiL servers are running IIS than were then (6 months ago). However - anyone simply going to look up what server www.hotmail.com is running on is obviously an idiot - have they ever checked the URL (or to them - "what it says in the address bar at the top of Internet Explorer") when you actually read your HoTMaiL? If they had they'd realise that it doesn't say www.hotmail.com - other servers are involved - and many of these run Apache / BSD.

    And that's ignoring any faking they're doing...

    And replying to a comment someone wrote in response to a totally different article - let alone this discussion thread (hey I'm drunk - sue me) - while it may take 3rd party software for a Palm to do MS Word - have you noticed that a Palm plus a decent Word editor is not only cheaper than a PPC - but also works better - i.e. format is retained even if the PDA version doesn't show it.

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:16:23 PM #
    Quote: "Try writing a SQL database application on PalmOS. Oh wait, you can't."

    ummm...yeah, you can:

    http://www.sybase.com/testdrive

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:29:38 PM #
    Opps...

    The reply starting "SQL database applications for the Palm..." was from me - mtg101 / russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk - forgot I don't auto login on every computer in the world...

    Cheers
    Russsell

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:04:35 PM #
    > Try writing a SQL database application on PalmOS. Oh
    > wait, you can't

    What about IBM DB2?

    http://makeashorterlink.com/?M35920A01

    RE: A true story...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 7:01:12 PM #
    Ripping on the development environment for PPC means either u never farted with what Palm offers, or you truely come blinders (a true quality for loyalty), but not good for market analysis....lol.

    Palm needs to worry about Symbian, not Microsoft

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:17:09 PM #
    I'd love to see an article comparing the Symbian OS against Palm. This is where the battle will be fought, and the future remains unsettled for both Palm and Symbian. IMHO.

    Ed, do you have any plans for a similar article detailing Palm v. Symbian?

    RE: Palm needs to worry about Symbian, not Microsoft
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:18:56 PM #
    While I think that PalmOS wins in similar ways over Symbian to PPC, few people know about Symbian - especially in the USA.

    An article comparing the two would be very informative to many people I think.



    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    Bias?

    tipds @ 6/10/2002 6:06:44 PM #
    Keep in mind, I'm the proud owner of a Clie (Palm OS based PDA).

    Now, I really got the feeling I was reading heavily biased Palm propoganda while going over this article. It really seems more like opinion than fact. I'm not saying the end projection is wrong, but I can't say it's a sure thing either. I've been really impressed with some of the things PPCs can do that Palms can't... Even with the compressed battery life. I like the fact that there are so many emulators that will run under PPC. I also like the fact that several media types can be used, without the need for conversion to proprietary formats. I like the native support of Word, Excel, etc. I like the fact that they can play MP3 over the built in speaker. I don't think the interface is so complicated, but it can be made custom. PPC has alot of things going for it.

    To the point of under-matched hardware... Maybe the PPC OS has been ahead of the hardware. On the other hand, the Palm OS has been BEHIND the hardware. There are things we have not been able to do, that the hardware is available for. Maybe hardware is just catching up with PPC, but Palm is just catching up with the hardware. That puts the two at parity. Where does the winner come from?

    Choice? Well, I'd much rather be stuck with only one choice for a word processor, if that word processor did every thing I needed, and did so easily. Choice is no good if all the choices are less than adequate.

    Price? I don't think there's a big difference between the Sonly NR series and the top-o-the-line PPC models.

    Functionality? Maybe. I have to admit, though; I'd rather have the ability to do a task, even if it bogged down my PDA. Slowly is better than not at all.

    Broad based support? Yes. Many large companies (despite popular contention) support PPC where they don't support Palm. Maybe there are more companies that choose to write custom applications for the Palm OS, but I really think the corporate world is more apt to allow their users to sync a Windows PPC with a Windows PC, than a kludge of a sync tool on a Palm PDA.

    Anyhow... My point is, I don't think any of us have a clear vision into the future, especially as it applies to the future victor of the PDA OS war. I believe both alternatives offer something to the consumer, and I think it would be a bad thing for the public to loose either. I don't want another monopoly, not in the PDA market. If the Palm OS DID rule the PDA world, I'm not sure it would be any better than having MS in control. After all, I really believe it was the PPC units that drove the innovation the the Palm world. I suspect none of the famous Sony units would have included all the bells & whistles they did, had they not already been available on PPC.

    Just my worthless opinion,
    Tip DS

    ;>)

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:36:31 PM #
    you have valid points, but don't pick the article apart for being "more like opinion than fact".

    that's what an editorial is--opinion.

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:43:14 PM #
    you can't say that in here. you are not trolling are you? Palm is the best no comparison, just look at the market share.
    RE: Bias?
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:47:41 PM #
    Hmm... just because somehing has a bigger market share doesn't make it better.

    Betamax was 'better' than VHS. And the Phillips VCR was even 'better'...


    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: Bias?
    Ed @ 6/10/2002 6:58:16 PM #
    > Now, I really got the feeling I was reading heavily biased Palm
    > propoganda while going over this article.

    This isn't an article. It's an editorial and it's clearly labeled as such.

    ---
    News Editor

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:38:13 PM #
    Don't you mean that it is clearly libelled as such?
    RE: Bias?
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 9:03:42 PM #
    Choice? Well, I'd much rather be stuck with only one choice for a word processor, if that word processor did every thing I needed, and did so easily. Choice is no good if all the choices are less than adequate.

    tipDS : not sure I follow you here. In my experience PocketWord is critically flawed - particularly because it loses formatting ActiveSync'ing back and forth with the desktop. I've found that both QuickWord and WordSmith (for the PalmOS) are much better solutions.

    What emulators have you tried that work smoothly? I'd be interested to try MAME and GameBoy emulators that are relatively bug-free. Pointers to e570 (StrongARM) compatible would be appreciated.


    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:33:52 PM #
    > Hmm... just because somehing has a bigger market share doesn't make it better.

    You mean ... Micro$oft's products ? Windows .NOT ?

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:34:37 PM #
    Palm_Otaku,
    If you are looking for help getting the most out of your e570, this likely isn't the best forum for you to get it in. I understand that your comments have been relevant to this discussion, but if you truly seek info about g~~~~g, etc on a Toshiba PPC, I suggest you try the PPC forums at PocketPCPassion, Brighthand, PDABuzz, etc.
    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:03:07 AM #
    as far as I know the MAME for PPC is version 2 or 3 already. It's pretty much en par with the desktop version. not bad. Is it 100% bug free? (you got to be kidding, it's a Universal emulator for hundreds of differents machines, of course it would have one or two game title run amock. That not to mention it is a software develop by unpaid group of programers on their spare time)

    - I dont' see a Mame version for Palm OS yet. (working buggy, or even alpha version......anywhere on the net)

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:05:55 AM #
    > Don't you mean that it is clearly libelled as such?

    Because any opinion you disagree with is a crime.

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:02:26 PM #
    >Because any opinion you disagree with is a crime.

    Not at all. I use lots of products that use both Windows CE and Palm OS. To me, they are both great, but for different uses.

    I just found this article offensive because of the sheer stupidity of the author. He demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of either of the product lines in question combined with the reasoning powers of a lump of coal. Virtually all of his conclusions are unsupported by any real facts and the opinions presented don't even help much.

    This is my own editorial piece, so it is OK for me to present these ideas without any justification or logic (at least that is how it looks from reading this thread).

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:00:05 PM #
    I agree too - did the editorial writer even use a PPC?

    And many people are talking about "too many taps." PPC allows you to be more detailed and to be more organized, and that requires a little more work (sorry, lazy people). If you go through a few extra taps to input the exact times, the location, who the meeting is with, the PPC will list everything nice and organized, as opposed to a Palm (which I HAVE used), which shows everything up just in one long blobby paragraph.

    RE: Bias?
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 4:35:32 PM #
    Palm_Otaku, If you are looking for help getting the most out of your e570, this likely isn't the best forum for you to get it in.

    Thanks - that's good advice :) However, I am doing my PPC research in a number of other fora; here I'm asking for some specific examples to back up the contention that PPC is so much more capable than Palm.

    RE: Bias?
    tipds @ 6/11/2002 6:52:31 PM #
    Palm_Otaku,

    http://www.retrogames.com/pocketpc.html
    http://palmtops.about.com/cs/emulators/

    Well, Crap! A couple of months agao, I found a fantastic page full of emulators for Win CE & PPC devices. I can't find it anymore. Anyhow, one emulator (buggy or not) is one more than the Palm OS currently supports.

    Have Z fun,
    Tip DS

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:35:08 PM #
    > a Palm... shows everything up just in one long blobby paragraph.

    Since the "enter" stroke in Graffiti is just one quick line, it doesn't need to be one paragraph--it's quite easy to break it up!

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:34:27 PM #
    I'm just going to wait 30 days and see how PPC supporters argue with the new OS 5 devices running at a battery life 3x of what PPC does with the same functions like hi-res (Don't give me that Clié crash-happy stuff) and media playing.

    I'm not saying the Clie crashes a lot, but apparently from what I read from a lot of people it's a large hassle switching support of hi-res between some programs and hacks needed to do it right. I'm not willing to sacrifice stability for that.

    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 1:27:56 AM #
    Please stop bragging about Palm OS 5. That's like me bragging about PPC2004. Once OS5 comes out, we will see how it does. But anything said about OS5 today could be true, could be false. Let the facts do the talking, not the Palm representatives.
    RE: Bias?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 12:04:46 AM #
    Thank you.. I HIGHLY doubt that Palm Sony handspring etc would be able to squeeze over 20 hrs out of a color 320x320 screen and keep prices relatively the same as they are now. The toshiba e-310 (newest strongARM) gets close to 8 hours straight run time. This is amazing for a colored handheld. Especially the thinnest on the market.

    I disagree.

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:21:56 PM #
    I am a Palm OS PDA user. My main PDA is the Palm m515, and my secondary PDA is the Sony T615; however, I disagree with the one-sided nature of this article. There is room for both Palm OS and PPC IMO. PPCs will continue to do things Palm cannot do, even after OS 5 comes out. Check out this review of the X-Scale Toshiba which is already being sold at COMPUSA:
    http://www.sprinklerhead.com/toshe740.htm
    If one OS is destined to stomp out the other, then I am betting on Palm OS. Everything done by both Palm and PPC OS seems to be handles better by Palm. However, given the fact that PPC continues to do some things better than Palm OS, I see a place for both platforms.
    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:30:17 PM #
    Oops, I meant to say:
    If one OS is destined to stomp out the other, then I am betting on Palm OS. Everything done by both Palm and PPC OS seems to be handles better by Palm. However, given the fact that PPCs continues to do some things that Palm OS PDAs cannot do, I see a place for both platforms.
    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:23:22 PM #
    OS 5 supports hi-res, ARM (not just x scale), wi-fi, and sound. There's no reason why Palm, Sony, Handera or Handspring couldn't come up with something with similar if not better hardware. Clies already have graphic and sound chips built in
    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:01:09 PM #
    "OS 5 supports hi-res"

    WHAT???? If you mean that "up to 320 x 320" is high-res... when the NR70 already has 320 x 480, that is a bit odd to say the least!!!.


    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:16:41 PM #
    NR70 isn't a pocketpc. And if Sony can do it under PalmOS 4 they can certainly do it for a PalmOS 5 Clie.
    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 9:29:48 PM #
    Yup. OS5 will give Palm hi-res m5x5 (320x320), SONY has 320x480 CLIE too. Look at Pocket PC , 320x240 ? PPC is nothing but expensive gameboy.
    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:03:28 PM #
    dude - PPC is a gameboy? i totally disagree. you can do more than games (although PPC games do blast palm's out of the water). all that stuff - calendar, addresses, excel, mp3s, videos. bah.

    and talking about games - can your palm play strategic assault (a ccommand and conquer clone)? what about snes emulator (meaning i can play classics like x-men, ninja turtles, spiderman, mario)? even a playstation emulator is coming soon. sim city?

    palm's most downloaded games at download.com are tetris, pinball, and dope wars (a text based game). what does that tell you about games.

    RE: I disagree.
    mtg101 @ 6/11/2002 7:46:04 PM #
    >and talking about games - can your palm
    >play strategic assault (a ccommand and
    >conquer clone)? what about snes emulator (meaning
    >i can play classics like x-men, ninja
    >turtles, spiderman, mario)? even a
    >playstation emulator is coming soon. sim city?

    C&C clones? Yeah - PalmOS has realtime stat games just like that. See Conquer! on PalmGear.com

    SNES emulator - OK - you got me there.

    But we've had SimCity for years...


    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: I disagree.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:58:32 PM #
    PPC has Sim City 2000

    Hey Cluebies...

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 6:27:52 PM #
    Um, it's not Palm vs. Microsoft any longer. Don't know if you got the memo, it's Microsoft vs. Nokia. Good luck with you OS 5 devices, they'll be great PDAs for all of you.
    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 6:43:53 PM #
    Actually it's more interesting than that. You have a number of different huge companies competing in this space.

    M$ - the PDA is a small desktop PC - and we know how to do that.

    Sony - the PDA is a consumer electronics device - and we know how to do that.

    Nokia - the PDA is a connected handheld device - and we know how to do that.


    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:13:19 PM #
    Nokia is known for phones not PDA's. Symbian has about zero presence in the US. Good luck
    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    mtg101 @ 6/10/2002 7:18:40 PM #
    You seem to have acidentally added the words "in the US" to you statement :)

    ---
    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 10:57:08 PM #
    Palm is doing pretty nicely in Europe as well. But Symbian needs to do better in the US before we can take seriously "Symbian vs PPC and forget Palm". The reality is more like "Handspring competing with Palm for 1st place, Sony vs PPC for 2nd place and Linux vs Symbian for 3rd"
    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:18:02 AM #
    You saw that Nokia PC thingy? One problem. NO TOUCH-SCREEN! Yeah, you think it's nothing, but trust me, you'll poke it more than you think you will. Just try using the Game Boy emulators on the Palm. *blushes*
    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:49:48 AM #
    (Off-Topic)

    Just a Tip: In Liberty you can use the Calc/Find buttons as start/select (so you don't have to poke the screen)

    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:36:44 PM #
    No touch screen - darn right - it sucks - but future derivatives will fix that. But that's not been announced yet. Not that that will stop the device being a total brick... but a step in the right direction.

    As for Symbian needs to do better in the US before we take it seriously - the EU market for phones is bigger than the US market - and phones is what Nokia do. Oh - and analysts predict that the PC and gaming and comsumer elecs markets will be roughly equal to the US by 2004 and then start to get bigger...


    RE: Hey Cluebies...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:28:19 AM #
    >>Um, it's not Palm vs. Microsoft any longer. Don't know if you got the memo, it's Microsoft vs. Nokia. Good luck with you OS 5 devices, they'll be great PDAs for all of you.

    Hmm - on phones Symbian has decent backing - and is a nice OS. But the PPC trolling here about how its between PPC and Symbian is just stupid - PPC AND Symbian account for less then %20 of the market - so PLEASE - justify this blatently stupid statement. (BTW - Palm is also the leading SmartPhone OS in world sales - maybe you didn't get the memo?)

    ed

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 7:51:20 PM #
    I have come to expect this from Ed. Another article with mistakes. He is obviously not a bright apple. 320x320 ed. Jesus.
    RE: ed
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:07:43 PM #
    Excuse me, what are you talking about? There isn't a single reference to 320x320 I can find. If there's an error, point it out.
    RE: ed
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:15:25 PM #
    Ahh, and you've never made a mistake???

    Do I detect some sour grapes perhaps?

    Also, it would be nice if you had the decency to not hide behind Anonymous when you insult someone's hard work. (I really don't think your name is Jesus now is it?)

    -Brett Blatchley

    ''He is obviously not a bright apple''
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:27:19 PM #
    bright apple???
    RE: ed
    WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 6/10/2002 8:34:48 PM #
    >> bright apple???

    "bright apple" is an American figure of speech. It means someone who is smart.

    RE: ed
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:38:19 PM #
    Strange... I am an American, and I have never heard that figure of speech.
    RE: ed
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:39:38 PM #
    Does that mean I'm not a bright apple? =]
    RE: ed
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:53:11 AM #
    bright apple? That seems to be a bizzare slur of some sort of suck up giving an apple to a teacher thing, plus bright meaning intelligent.
    RE: ed
    Crash Override @ 6/11/2002 1:55:24 PM #
    I think the guy at the top should just stop wasting our time. Oh yeah and learn some manners.

    PalmOS 5 is not in the same league

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 8:53:10 PM #
    PalmOS 5 is not much more than PalmOS 4 for the ARM. That is not going to address the limitations of PalmOS. PalmOS 5 still lacks a modern GUI toolkit and layout system. Its data storage and networking are still primitive. PalmOS 5 applications are going to have many of the same limitations as PalmOS 4 applications.

    However, the use of the ARM processor may finally allow people to port other, more powerful toolkits to PalmOS, toolkits like Qt, FLTK, or wxWindows.

    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 10:08:27 PM #
    > PalmOS 5 still lacks a modern GUI toolkit

    well, that's a matter of opinion

    > and layout system.

    true

    > Its data storage and networking are still primitive.

    wrong and wrong

    > PalmOS 5 applications are going to have many of the
    > same limitations as PalmOS 4 applications.

    not really

    > use of the ARM processor may finally allow people to
    > port other, more powerful toolkits to PalmOS

    quite true

    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:21:00 AM #
    PalmSource believes in something called CHOICE here folks. Rather than force one program on you, they make a standard and let the market compete. Take economics, monopolies and single ways of doing things stagnates creativity.(Don't even DARE say creating a standard is comparable to forcing one program on a person.)
    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:31:56 PM #
    if palm source believe in "choice" than it should have written several support of different CPU so manufacturer doens't have to stuck with 33mHz dragonball.

    I think the root of this "believe in choice made by licensee" is just a thinly veiled incompetency to innovate. ie. Hey let somebody else write it, and we jsut cheer them on.

    grog......

    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:57:20 PM #
    "PalmSource believes in something called CHOICE here folks. Rather than force one program on you, they make a standard and let the market compete. Take economics, monopolies and single ways of doing things stagnates creativity.(Don't even DARE say creating a standard is comparable to forcing one program on a person.)"

    I don't get it. PalmOS is so limited compared to other handheld operating systems that it is almost impossible to port software to it; everything needs a major rewrite to run on PalmOS. Where is the choice there?

    If PalmSource believed in "choice", they'd make sure that every Palm shipped with Java and enable support for common cross-platform toolkits.

    In fact, what PalmSource really wants is to tie people as much as possible to their proprietary and odd-ball APIs as possible.

    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:45:17 PM #
    PalmOS software does indeed need to be ported from other systems. Then again you need to port desktop Windoze to get it on a PPC - and when it comes to things like semaphores and sockets - that's major changes.

    And if it's so hard to port software to the PalmOS - why does PalmOS have better MS Word apps than PPC? And of course PalmOS has support for ICQ, MSN Messanger, AIM, Yahoo! Messenger. Useful stuff like Metro and TomTom Citymaps is on PalmOS. We have GameBoy and Speccy emulators. And databases from Oracle and Sybase. Oh - and if you want to study numbers... check out the number of PalmOS apps vs PPC on Handango.com

    Oh - and see my "True Story" above for how easy PPC development is...


    Cheers
    Russell

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 10:09:33 AM #
    "Then again you need to port desktop Windoze to get it on a PPC."

    I was reacting to the comment that "PalmSource gives us choices". PalmSource isn't giving us choices--they are giving us an operating system that is unnecessarily limited. It's like something from the technological dark ages (didn't it come out of collaboration with GeoWorks?). Those kinds of systems were substandard and outdated from the start, even when they first appeared in microcomputers 20 years ago.

    "And if it's so hard to port software to the PalmOS - why does PalmOS have better MS Word apps than PPC? And of course PalmOS has support for [...]"

    PalmOS was here first and had most of the market share. Of course, people developed lots of software for it. And PocketPC has lots of problems, too, which is why people aren't flocking to it in droves.

    The real question is: does PalmSource have the guts to fix PalmOS or is it going to continue being the kind of mess it is? I think it's a question of survival. PalmOS 5--too little and very late--suggests that the company either lacks the skill or the will to do better.

    PocketPC will continue because of Microsoft's deep pockets. But PalmOS will face stiff competition from Symbian and others.

    Hey Microsoft: History does NOT always repeat itself...

    SilliconMan @ 6/10/2002 9:40:26 PM #
    ALL FLAMES ASIDE!

    Microsofts success is due largely in part to Apples invention of the Graphical User Interface, or GUI, and Xeroxes iconic interface.

    You have to realize that Microsoft has made it this far only because they stole from Xerox and the got really lucky, due to several factors. One is that a GUI just makes a computer easier to use. You don't see many computer novices using Unix/Linux do you? And on that note, the PC really took off right about Windows 95, when DOS was pushed aside.

    Of course old Bill Gates is gonna try his "Everyone LOVES windows" attitude. Its worked up to this point with windows! Something like 90% of people use Windows.

    This is where the screen issue comes in, which is right on target. Windows was designed to be a PC GUI, NOT a PPC GUI!

    The problem is Microsoft just needs to figure out what its users really want. Thats alot of things, several factors combining, etc, etc. Since Microsoft is only here because of a stroke of luck and a criminal act (techincally speaking), its no wonder they haven't rethough there strategies out. They know what has worked so far is good, and want to spoon feed it to us in as many ways possible.


    Like I said, NO FLAMING.

    JeffL

    RE: Hey Microsoft: History does NOT always repeat itself...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 10:12:02 PM #
    Well, actually Microsoft only got this far because of a clever licensing deal with IBM for DOS software that Microsoft didn't even write themselves. Much the same as some of the other items you mentioned, Microsoft's standing in the computer industry is grounded entirely in its business tactics, not any innovative technology they developed themselves.

    RE: Hey Microsoft: History does NOT always repeat itself...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:07:29 AM #
    ...and Palm get this far because they license OS kernel for Kadak Inc., and than finally has to buy Be OS asset to really come up with next generation OS instead of an ARM patch of 4.0.

    what's your point?

    Apple copied Xerox PARC's GUI (eom)
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:52:55 AM #
    eom
    RE: Hey Microsoft: History does NOT always repeat itself...
    jjsoh @ 6/11/2002 1:07:00 PM #
    "And on that note, the PC really took off right about Windows 95, when DOS was pushed aside."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically, Windows 9x is still running under DOS. As the joke goes:

    Windows is...

    A 32-bit extension of
    a 16-bit graphical shell of
    an 8-bit operating system coded for
    a 4-bit processor by
    a two-bit company that can't stand
    one bit of competition.

    :)


    Jim

    RE: Hey Microsoft: History does NOT always repeat itself...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:51:49 PM #
    LOL @ Jim - I'll remember that!

    OH - and who didn't steal from Xerox PARC??? They invented GUIs, Ethernet, the mouse, VR, and so on....

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    Sigh...

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:09:06 PM #
    Ok people. I use both Palm And PPC (Sony T615 and iPaq 3870) Let me know when your Palm can run AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, ICQ Have 5 Internet Explorer Windows Open. Have Your Inbox open with Automatic Send/Recieve every Minute, and Still run smoothly. I do this ALL THE TIME. Also You do not need to convert videos so they will play on a PPC you are in Palm Land. (Oh wait I cant read this E-Mail attachment it isn't converted into Palm format.) I download the news in Mpeg format and watch it on my iPaq all the time. I dont need to use my desktop to convert it. I can Download Winzip Files and open them on my PPC! And this is with a 128MB SD card in and Connected With bluetooth to my Ericsson T68i Which Runs on GPRS!! Also I can read Any attachment that people E-Mail me. Adobe Acrobat? No problem. I don't need to run a stupid Converting program on my desktop first. SHEESH!! Get the facts right people!!!

    And another thing. The iPaq is NOT Huge. Why are palm people sooo Picky about 1/100 mm difference?? Jeez like I'm reeeally going to notice that. ugh. this is what front pockets are for people.

    NOT to mention The fact I can Video Conference with people In my backyard Connected to my wireless network!!!!

    Finally I would like to remind people that I am not Biased. Please correct me if you find ANYTHING that palm can do I said couldn't. ANYTHING!! I am very happy using my Sony Clie. There is nothing wrong with Palm OS it is just not for Power users. Sorry!

    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:42:50 PM #
    Much of what you say is true, although much of what you think is exclusively PPC is possible now on a Palm (AIM, Yahoo Instant Messenger) or will be possible with OS 5.0 (opening all kinds of email attachments). However, there will still be things that only PPCs can do and Palm cannot. If I needed any of those things, I'd have to go back to PPC.

    People have different needs, and therefore PPCs and Palm OS PDAs both have a place in our market. The only opinion you have that I disagree with is the iPAQ's size. I had to get rid of my iPAQ because with any sort of sleeve, even a silver slider, it is way too big to ride comfortably in my pockets. The new Xscale Toshiba, on the other hand, looks fairly svelte considering it's capabilities.

    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:54:07 PM #
    Let me know when PocketPC has a real word processor. Let's start with the basics first ok?
    RE: Sigh...
    madhatter @ 6/10/2002 11:57:14 PM #
    "Ok people. I use both Palm And PPC (Sony T615 and iPaq 3870) Let me know when your Palm can run AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, ICQ Have 5 Internet Explorer Windows..."

    Actually 3 thoughts..
    1. If you are doing this all the time, you must have to keep your PDA on the cradle constantly, as doing all this would drain your battery in a hurry.
    2. As far as bulk, I would say in order to do all this you must add the expansion sleeve... which then adds considerably more the 1/100"
    3. On my 705 I can access AIM and Yahoo along with any other web site I choose. ( granted without color, but if I am on the go, I need text, not graphics)

    I'm glad you prefer your pocket pc.. but for being on the go, my 705 is all that I need. When I am at home or office, I have a PC that fits my needs there as well.

    A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:04:14 AM #
    ... and it is not 1/100 mm differnet ... except your mm is different than my mm. I use my PPC all the time, when I tried to open my attachment in the email, it want me to go back my desktop outlook to get it. Am I missing something here ?
    RE: Sigh...
    jimski @ 6/11/2002 12:43:22 AM #
    Sorry to get back to cars Ed, but I guess the above poster lugs around a DieHard to keep all that running on the iPaq3870.

    But alas, you can always set a reminder on your T615, with a couple of quick taps, to remind you to charge those batteries.

    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:30:23 AM #
    Wow! Enjoy your 15 minute video conferences in your backyard! Does anybody find this as such a blatant misuse of technology?
    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:24:54 AM #
    "Let me know when your Palm can run AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, ICQ"

    I can use AIM and ICQ over any network connection, including my 802.11b CF card.

    "Have 5 Internet Explorer Windows Open."

    No thanks.

    "Have Your Inbox open with Automatic Send/Recieve every Minute, and Still run smoothly."

    Actually there's a company here in Vancouver that's licenced the multi-taking access from Kadak, and can do send/receive, encryption/decryption in the background. Shouldn't be such an issue on ARM.

    "I can Download Winzip Files and open them on my PPC!"

    At least two different palm apps can work with card based .zips and extract/convert contents.

    And this is with a 128MB SD card in and Connected With bluetooth to my Ericsson T68i Which Runs on GPRS!!

    I prefer simultaneous SD based data and Cf based 802.11b myself. Perhaps HandEra will give us bluetooth drivers at some point. Certainly SD bluetooth to an Ericsson GPRS handset is trivial for an OS4 Palm.

    Get the facts right people!!!

    You've got *some* valid points, but you also have a few fingers pointing back at yourself as you point.

    "And another thing. The iPaq is NOT Huge."

    The are plenty of largish iPaq's (Especially with CF sleeves), and heavy as well. Compare size and weight to a dual slot HandEra 330. Or more apples to apples, a similiarly equipped Toshiba PPC with dual slots.


    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:12:18 PM #
    I love my Audiovox Maestro PPC (really made by Toshiba), and the dual slots are amazing.

    And people, stop arguing what Palm OS 5 might be able to do. Once it comes out, you can start talking. And also, Palm is playing catch up - it's trying to pick up all the features that PPC has always had.

    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:14:56 PM #
    "I use both Palm And PPC (Sony T615 and iPaq 3870) Let me know when your Palm can run AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, ICQ Have 5 Internet Explorer Windows Open. Have Your Inbox open with Automatic Send/Recieve every Minute, and Still run smoothly. I do this ALL THE TIME."

    So what do you do for the other 23 hours and 37 minutes of the day?

    A more logical hardware solution...
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 4:52:29 PM #
    Hmm, you might want to check out Sony's latests PictureBook micro-notebook as an alternative -- you'll get way more functionality, higher performance, more memory, way better screen resolution, a keyboard, much longer battery life, etc. etc. and probably save yourself a few bucks in the process. Heh, and if you can fit the H3870 + dual sleeve + camera + whatever into your front pocket, you can probably fit the PictureBook in there too... ;)

    RE: Sigh...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 12:24:39 PM #
    You want a word processor. Makes sense. You want a word processor with excellent formatting capabilites. Still makes sense. You want a word processor with excellent formatting capabilites on a mobile device. Still makes sense. You want a word processor with excellent formatting capabilites on a mobile device that has a tiny input panel and a small screen. Oooookay. Am I the only one that sees where this issue falls apart? I can understand the need for a word processor on a mobile device. I can understand the need for SIMPLE formatting, like bold, italics, font, alignment, bullets, color, etc. But what else could you possibly want? I can understand tables - Pocket Word falls short there. But that's about it. I'm a writer and a programmer, so I write about programming. I'd love to have tables in Pocket Word, and I think it's a big issue. But that's about it. Word processing on a tiny screen with a tiny input panel (Yes, I know you can have a keyboard, but that's not part of the OS, and is therefore a non-issue. Besides, both the PPC and the Palm have keyboards you can buy.) with anything more than Pocket Word + tables is crazy. It'd be hard to see tables without scrolling horizontally (something EVERYONE HATES) anyways. That, and why do you people insist on calling it Windoze and Micro$oft or other misspelled variants? Why not just say the name of the company? If anything, you make yourself look less like an intelligent person and more like one of the losers who posts on Slashdot every 2 seconds screaming about how evil MYKRO$$$$$OPHT is.

    I agree

    PIC mobile user @ 6/10/2002 11:09:45 PM #
    and am glad that I've stuck with Palm for 5 years now. With OS5 I feel my PPC envy is going to be quashed.
    RE: I agree
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:14:32 PM #
    until somebody has actually used and owned OS5, stop bragging about it.
    RE: I agree
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:47:28 PM #
    I think Rev 1 OS5 will sell a lot of PocketPCs.
    'PIC mobile user' and Ed will both be disappointed, but Ed won't realize it.
    RE: I agree
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:49:43 AM #
    >> until somebody has actually used and owned OS5, stop bragging about it.

    Well - i've been using the OS 5 emulator ('simulator') for a while now AND we all know the feature set - its all a pretty safe bet really. I have been able to complete an app recently - and ensure that it is OS 5 compatible and makes use of extra OS 5 features - and i didn't need a crystal ball.

    Uhm...

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:09:29 PM #
    Why does everyone Refuse to accept the possibility of 2 different OS's co-existing? Apple VS Windows. Just pick the best one for you. Palm Vs PPC Just pick the best one for you. Oh well
    RE: Uhm...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:10:15 AM #
    Windows 97.5% worldwide sales VS Apple 2.5%

    apparently the world doesn't think too much of apple.

    RE: Uhm...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:34:52 PM #
    What about Linux?
    RE: Uhm...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:46:25 PM #
    What ABOUT Linux?
    RE: Uhm...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:30:11 PM #
    That number is for desktop OS's, not servers, which is what Linux usually does. I'm not saying it's ONLY for servers, but it works best as that.
    RE: Uhm...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 10:33:21 AM #
    Linux is probably used on more desktops than Macintosh. And Linux is used significantly on handhelds and embedded systems as well. Once Palm comes out with ARM-based handhelds, you can bet that a significant fraction will run Linux; the only thing that has held people back so far is that the processor on current Palms lacks usable memory management.
    RE: Uhm...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 12:33:11 PM #
    Thank you! Someone who actually agrees with me! If you want hot sexy PIM functionality, go for Palm. If you want to do crazy things like start a webserver in your pocket, go for PPC. If you want awesome word processing options (I'm the guy who posted about Word Processing in the other thread FYI), head to your local Palm dealer. If you don't want to check for the existance of a function before you call it, go for PPC.

    By the way, I have no idea what's wrong with your iPaq and EVT, but I develop for the PPC all the time without a hitch. I guess it's like Windows - people say it crashes all the time, but I've never had XP crash on me yet. But I'll probably get singed by a bunch of people who would like to say differently. I'm a power user, I know how it all works (I consider myself adept at the Windows API) and maybe that's why it doesn't crash. Maybe everyone else is doing something really stupid. But then again, I might just be lucky.

    By the way, I've used a Palm but don't own one. I'm a PPC guy (iPaq 3600 series). I might buy a Palm for serious PIM if I ever need it though.

    Embrace the duality of mobile computing - a fusion will be messy, inefficient, and costly (at first anyways). Besides, it's better this way. It's like a computer. If you're an artist go for Apple, if you're a developer go for Windows/Linux.

    Palm's propoganda

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:00:02 AM #
    It's so strange that while the spin doctors (doesn't it remind one of the Nazi propaganda campaign?) at Palm is saying things about the PPCs features, Palm is heading towards PPCs direction in adding features. Also, Palm forgot to mention that one of the reason for the rise of PPC sales is also because of of previous Palm users migrating to PPC. Palm may have 87% of the market, but it is losing ground as PPC comes out with a 400 Mhz processor with 128 MB RAM. And yes, I am one who chose PPC over Palm because Palm lacked features of a PC, the same goes for those Palm users who migrated to PPC.

    Well, Palm has still some way to go before they can match the bells and whistles of the PPC. Don't let the Palm fellas tell you users don't need it, if that was true Palm should have remained as a boring black and white model and need not transit to a multimedia one. Seems to me Palm is scared **** of being another Netscape.

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:09:38 AM #
    Yep but that was when IT managers with hype that force its enterprise users to use PPC. Now the hype burst, many IT departments are shifting their gear toward to PalmOS.

    I don't see PPC kills PalmOS but I do see Toshiba kills iPAQ & Jornada (or HP iPAQ what so ever)

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:10:29 AM #
    gotta love it when Microsofties compare little Palm to Nazis. What's next? Comparing Blue Nomad to Al Qaeda? And you can't have it both ways-complaining that Palm is being like pocketpc for adding more features and then going to pocketpc because of those same features. If you really want features then forget pocketpc and go with Sony.
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:40:12 AM #
    You didn't read the article correctly. Ed said that Palm is finally adding the features because the hardware is ready. He didn't ridicule MS for adding the features, just adding them prematurely.
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:41:15 AM #
    "If you want features, then get a Sony" must be a joke.

    As I've mentioned earlier, Palm has still some way to go before it can match the PPC - they are always playing catch up. Palm still cannot record voice, and its processor will still trail PPC's soon 400 Mhz processor.

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:33:28 AM #
    Palm dosen't need to use a 400mhz processor because the Palm OS is not as bloated as the PPC. A 33mhz Palm runs datbook/task/mail/phonebook apps as quick as a 200mhz PPC. Sony's T6xx runs at 33mhz and plays video and MP3.

    btw, Handera can record voice!

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:39:56 AM #
    Nothing left to brag about since all his comments just got shot down!! Not one of his comments can be held up.
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:48:57 AM #
    Have you ever tried playing video on a 33mhz Sony T6xx? Slowest, choppiest thing ever. Sure it can play video, but it cannot play it well.
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:53:35 AM #
    Have you tried the new Kinoma player? Pretty darn good! No chop, and hires!
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:53:35 AM #
    Given that the built-in app for playing video isn't all that great, the best part of the Palm OS is the freedom to use ANY app available (15,000+) compared to the "you must comply" approach that MS pushes on you. Maybe the built-in app for video is choppy on the T6xx, but the NV70 has a 66mhz processor, still way slower than the current 200mhz PPC processors, and still out performs PPC.
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:22:09 AM #
    I have to disagree with your comment about the NR70 outperforming a PPC. Sure it's 66 mhz so it does outperform any Palm and is on par with PPC for most tasks, but have you tried using a spreadsheet that requires more than a few calculations on Docs-to-Go? Pocket Excel can use and manipulate the same spreadsheet much faster. And you'll have to pay PPC money and sacrifice PPC size to get the Sony, no less.
    RE: Microsoft's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:47:35 AM #
    If we are going to start talking about propaganda campaigns, then you have to accept the fact that Microsoft is the worst offender of this ever in U.S. history.

    They invented the whole concept of FUD. Fear Uncertainty Doubt. See, you don't have to make people like your own products. It is enough to make them doubt your opponents. One of the best ways of doing this is to post a lot of fake complaints on the Internet complaining about your opponents'' products.

    Or lie and say you are about to release a new version of your product that is much better than your competitions, when you really know you are months, or even years, away.

    Or pressure analysts to predict that your product will do a lot better that your competitions'.

    Or spread rumors that your product is selling very well when it really isn't. That's why people think PPC is doing well in enterprise sales, Microsoft propaganda. This is a flat out lie.

    So attacking Palm for putting out propaganda when the company you are defending uses propaganda as its main method for advertising is the worst sort of hypocrisy.

    And calling them Nazi's is totally contemptible.

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:17:04 PM #
    the reason PPC users don't need 15000 3rd party apps is because the default apps work just fine. like windows media player, we don't need to download different apps because it plays the video wonderfully.


    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:21:44 PM #
    Posted by: I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:41:15 AM
    > Palm still cannot record voice, and its processor
    > will still trail PPC's soon 400 Mhz processor.

    1. Well, Micro$ofties who compare existing Palm hardware to vaporware from the M$-assimilated will always win.. albeit unfairly.

    2. However, my Samsung SPH-i300 PalmOS machine does voice rather well, as does the HandEra.

    Two points to PalmOS - none to the lying-through-their-teeth Micro$ofties.

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 5:05:19 PM #
    DataViz's Sheets-To-Go isn't a particularly good comparison to PocketExcel. Give QuickSheets (CESInc.) or TinySheets (iambic) a try on the NR70V - very fast and very full featured. One of the nice things about PalmOS: lots of high-quality options. Are there any 3rd party spreadsheet applications for PPC?

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:54:40 PM #
    Yes
    RE: Palm's propoganda
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 7:57:27 PM #
    Heh, could you be just a little more specific? Is it any better than PocketExcel?

    What about a 3rd-party replacement for PocketWord?

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:57:53 AM #
    >>What about a 3rd-party replacement for PocketWord?

    LOL:) He certainly has no answer to this - as 50 posts above can attest to - there are several 3rd party Palm apps that blow PPC Word out of the water AND don't screw up the formatting (ie: they integrate better with desktop Word then MS's own PPC Word! what a joke!).

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 2:14:40 PM #
    "Are there any 3rd party spreadsheet applications for PPC?" ... "Heh, could you be just a little more specific? Is it any better than PocketExcel?"

    From the tone of most of these discussions, I didn't think people cared about specifics.

    SpreadCE, freeware. Has several things Pocket Excel leaves out, most notable to me: charting and macros. Does it do everything better? Probably not.

    RE: Palm's propoganda
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 3:28:09 PM #
    Sorry. $20, not freeware this version.

    Grafitti is no big deal

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:06:41 AM #
    While Palm prided itself in the use and invention of its Grafitti, it seems very dated in today's mobile computing use. If one have read the book "Piloting Palm", the Grafitti was invented because handwriting recognition software suck then, beginning with the Newton.

    But how times have changed. Microsoft's Transcriber handwriting recognition software is extremely accurate and easy to use. On the other hand, it involves a high learning curve for me to be able to use the Grafitti. Using the Grafitti today is like living in the stone age.


    Having the Grafitti area on board the Palm is a waste of valuable screen space; the space would have been better used to enhance the visibility of users. If only Palm uses a handwriting recognition software, able to record voice for short memos, and yet still have battery life last for weeks while maintaining its existing size and weight, it would have been a perfect model.

    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:15:34 AM #
    and a built-in keyboard is even easier to learn. In fact there's nothing to learn at all! Handspring and Sony made the right decision-and you won't see a pocketpc with a keyboard
    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:12:25 AM #
    Does palm own some sort of "handwriting recognition" technology?

    This could be critical area where Palm would stuck for a long time into the future (another year or two) with gesture typing or mini keyboard.

    Both methods are reliable, but soon would be like offering stick shift where everybody else has automatic gear.

    If I remember right, Newton handwriting technology is owned by Apple and takes very many man hrs to develop, so does microsofts version plus they also is licensing technology from a private company. I don't see Palm developing their own initiative for a true handwriting technology. Probably it is against their 'zen' believe system or so.


    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:35:43 AM #
    "But how times have changed. Microsoft's Transcriber handwriting recognition software is extremely accurate and easy to use. On the other hand, it involves a high learning curve for me to be able to use the Grafitti."

    And yet others say the opposite.

    "Having the Grafitti area on board the Palm is a waste of valuable screen space; the space would have been better used to enhance the visibility of users."

    No arguments, but there are two PalmOS devices (3 if you included the Symbol QVGA prototype displayed at PalmSource with HandEra's OS4.1) that have virtual graffiti areas. Two of the three have the same resolution screens as PPC's, the third is even larger.

    "If only Palm uses a handwriting recognition software, able to record voice for short memos, and yet still have battery life last for weeks while maintaining its existing size and weight, it would have been a perfect model."

    Save for your handwriting quibble, you can have just that, in the form of the HandEra 330.

    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:10:12 AM #
    HandEra 330? Surely you jest. Comparing a stone age black and white wanna be PPC with say, the iPaq? When will Palm users realize that they still have long way to go and that ex-Palm users who switched to PPC have never looked back since.

    Palm to PPC = now that is progress

    PPC to HandEra330? = That is taking a step backwards the PC evolution.

    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:43:33 AM #
    I had a PPC and tried transcriber, and found it really inaccurate and awful to use. Compared to graffiti which took no time at all to learn and was much more accurate. But for true speed in inputting, nothing beats FitalyStamp on the Palm. Once you've used it, you forget about having a virtual graffiti area.
    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:19:30 PM #
    transcriber is amazing. i dunno what you're talking about. you can write in cursive, print, or a weird mix, and it'll understand you.

    maybe you have messy handwriting.

    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:56:05 PM #
    I use JOT for my Clie, since I think it's a lot more easier and natural than grafitti. You could also train it a little, only a couple of letters, but their variety of ways you can write a letter is pretty extensive. It also includes cursive. Just thought I might share it with you guys...
    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:04:37 PM #
    I've tried all sorts of input methods (including Jot, Fitaly etc. on the Palm) and still prefer Graffiti - relatively fast, very few errors, and I can input without looking at the screen.

    On PPC I've been trying the latest Transcriber for the last 8 weeks and am still finding it rather frustrating in terms of transcription errors. "Letter Recognizer" is no better. (and I've got very neat writing)

    I figured that the PPC "Block Recognizer" (Graffiti clone) would be better for my skills but unfortunately, the more efficient "alternate strokes" (e.g. for "b", "v", "y") aren't recognized.

    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:06:27 PM #
    Fitaly is available for PPC, and you dont need a stamp for it. It intergrates with the os just like the rest of the input methods
    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 12:50:37 PM #
    Yes, I know it is available for the PPC, but I actually find the Stamp more convienient, it's always there, I don't have to go through extra taps to get to it. I'd probably like having the virtual graffiti area for reading and viewing photos, but it's not something I care overly much about.
    RE: Grafitti is no big deal
    I.M. Anonymous @ 8/26/2002 3:17:26 PM #
    Errmm I'm one of those Palm users who switched to PPC and back to Palm again.

    The Stock Market will be the Demise of Palm.

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:07:49 AM #
    I'm not sure if M$ has to really beat Palm. From what is going on in the Stock Market has me feeling a little uneasy about Palm. I'm not M$ fan, but when Palm's share is less than a $1.50, it has me worried. If Palm gets de-listed (when shares fall to less than a buck, it goes off the big board and becomes junk bonds). Then it's going to be close to lights out for Palm. To innovate and keep going one needs capital, with out investors, who want a return on their money, doing new and great things becomes kind of hard.

    Just my $0.02 here.....

    RE: The Stock Market will be the Demise of Palm.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:18:30 AM #
    Palm will be a good target of been taken over when 2 years of spin-off regulation is expired.
    RE: The Stock Market will be the Demise of Palm.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:19:51 AM #
    probably their Be OS asset is an interesting asset for hostile take over attempt. Tho' I don't see the economy will improve for some adventure in the range of hundreds million of dollar (current price)....maybe when PALM falls under 50-60cents/share.
    RE: The Stock Market will be the Demise of Palm.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:51:31 AM #
    What is happening to Palm in the stock market is exactly what is happening to all high tech stock. Watch Lou Dobbs moneyline on CNN and you will see that these are bleak times for the stockmarket.

    Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:12:05 AM #
    Input is definitely one area where Palm is light years behind Pocket PC. I had an iPaq and right now I use a Palm m500. Graffiti is decent, but not even being able to view my strokes where I am writing them (I know there are programs that will echo them elsewhere on the screen) drives me crazy.

    I'm anxious to see what Palm does with Graffiti on their own OS5 handhelds. Obviously an ARM powered device has plenty of juice for true handwriting recognition. Input is clearly superior on the Pocket PC with multiple third party options for the Pocket PC's soft input panel area. Surely Palm won't insult us with silkscreened Graffiti on their OS5 models (but I'm afraid they probably will). I want real handwriting recognition. Unfortunately, the folks who make Calligrapher for PPC have already said there will not be a PalmOS version, ever.

    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:28:04 AM #
    I agree with you. It involves a high learning curve to memorize the Grafitti functions. If you have read "Piloting the Palm" book, Palm has a history of trying to teach users how to use its product rather than designing a product around what users are familiar with already.
    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:21:22 AM #
    I find FitalyStamp to be superior to Transcriber/Calligrapher.
    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:25:46 AM #
    It didn't take me more than 15 minutes to learn Graffiti and it became extremely accurate once I mastered it. I doubt that the other writing input methods are as accurate.
    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:46:58 AM #
    It took me all of one day to learn graffiti. My handwriting is horrible, yet it works. If you have trouble, use TealEcho for a month, and then see how fast you can go. (Then again, I also have the Targus keyboard... :-D, I'm such a hypocrite!)
    But graffiti will always rule over keyboard input for me, mainly because of the WriteRight I have. The OLD ones, not the Micro-Thins. The high-friction surface it adds makes it feel more like paper and less like glass, which helps a great deal.
    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:41:13 AM #
    "Graffiti is decent, but not even being able to view my strokes where I am writing them (I know there are programs that will echo them elsewhere on the screen) drives me crazy."

    Both the HandEra 330, and the Sony NR70 echo your graffiti strokes in the software driven graffiti area. Built in.

    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:42:57 AM #
    "I agree with you. It involves a high learning curve to memorize the Grafitti functions. "

    It was easy for me. My wife learned 80% of it looking over my shoulder for 5 minutes. Both my parents in their 50's have Palm's and have no trouble with it. And now my grandfather is working with his new HandEra 330. It's really not that tough.

    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:33:33 AM #
    "It's really not that tough."

    I mostly agree with that statement. Sure, learning A-Z and 0-9 was pretty easy, but remembering those less-intuitive punctuations is a pain. I've been using a Palm for 6 months and still have to bring up the graffitti help menu once in a while. That being said, a learning curve does exist for Graffitti, albeit not a very large one. Transcriber and Calligraphy for PPC, however, require almost no learning curve.

    PPC's Transscriber and Calligraphy with close to zero learning curve vs. Graffitti with a small, yet noticeable learning curve. I think PPC has Palm clearly beat in this area.

    No big deal.....
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:55:18 AM #
    "I think PPC has Palm clearly beat in this area."

    What's the point of arguing about if that difference can be wiped out in less than 2-3 hours at most?

    I concentrate more on the feature set and frankly my learning curve for a Word Processor is longer than a typewriter, yet I am using a word processor now.

    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:20:44 AM #
    "I concentrate more on the feature set"

    I heartily agree and you can read through the rest of the postings on this article to see which OS gives you the most comprehensive feature set. But keep in mind that an easier input method is a feature that PPCs hold over Palms. If I'm correct, the original poster was concerned only with the different input methods between the two OSs, which is the only point I was addressing.

    RE: Palm input methods vs. Pocket PC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:24:49 AM #
    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that they prefer Grafiti over handwriting recognition. I can write in Grafiti faster than in my normal handwriting. Grafiti does not require one to use more than one stroke to write a letter whereas handwriting does. Think of letters like "i," "t," and "f" as good examples of letters that take more time to write in regular handwriting than grafiti. I hope Grafiti is included in future versions of PalmOS as well as other forms of input for those who prefer it. (Btw, yes, I know that PPC will let me choose which form of recognition I'd like. PalmOS also lets you choose from a variety of 3rd party input options, some of which are not offered on PPC.)

    Palm & PPC

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:04:48 AM #
    Lets not discuss this too much or they will soon get the idea, learn and figure out what they are doing wrong. It is not a bad thing....but I dont want to have to change my PDA
    RE: Palm & PPC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:19:19 AM #
    nope-see "fundamental probs of pocketpc" (scroll up) that shows how Microsoft's problems are based on contradictions and not merely about missing features. Also the future of PalmOS is very bright. The new Be Inc engineers know a few things about multithreading/multitasking, multimedia and tight code so I'm really tired to hear pocketpc drones blabbing about those things as "their" features (ok maybe not the tight code hehe). We shall see-this is just the beginning.
    RE: Palm & PPC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:22:55 AM #
    One major stumbling block for BeOS was driver development model. There aren't that many BeOS peripheral supports, a problem currently encounter by Palm OS which has to be faced more seriously once an OMAP base PDA is released. Otherwise it would never go beyond "spiffy" organizer. ie. support limited CF peripheral which is critical for enterprise use.
    RE: Palm & PPC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:46:20 AM #
    "Otherwise it would never go beyond "spiffy" organizer. ie. support limited CF peripheral which is critical for enterprise use."

    Worst case, they license the CF drivers from HandEra. They've already got most categories covered. 802.11b, CDPD, barcode, serial, USB, GPS, Microdrive, VGA output (presenter-to-go), ethernet (NE2000), CF modems, and card swipe readers.
    http://www.handera.com/solutions/acc.asp

    RE: Palm & PPC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:10:43 AM #
    the driver layer for the new OS has totally different architecture my dear. you can't just plug and chuck. total rewrite would be most likely or it would crash everything.
    RE: Palm & PPC
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 1:29:48 PM #
    Thanks sweetie! :)

    One-sided article. Inaccurate

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:45:34 AM #
    Of course, this is an editorial so it expresses an opinion.

    I must say, however, that even with the move to ARM processors, there are several things Palm still lacks when compared to PPCs.

    First, even if we're running at 200 mhz, as a Palm user I'd still have to deal with the conduits and with the file conversions. These are things that are almost non-existant in PPC. Drag and drop Word/Excel files. Outlook syncs natively. Open jpgs and mp3s natively with no conversion. I can't tell you how much of a joy it's been to be able to just open up File Explorer, tap on a file and open it.

    Second, no, it's absolutely not true that PPC was designed for a screen that needs to be bigger. That's an oversimplification and totally false. It's just a different operating system. For the same reason that Palm users find it difficult adjusting to PPC at first, PPC users find it difficult adjusting to Palm. Neither one is more intuitive as the other. I speak from experience after having been with Palm for 2 years after I bought my first PDA. I picked up a PPC about 6 months ago and haven't looked back. It was all just a matter of getting used to the OS. Once I did, PPC has proven to be much more powerful (and heck, pretty) than the simple Palm layout.

    So, although Palm is moving to faster processors, the bottom line is that it will be virtually indistinguishable from OS 4.1. Now, I AM interested in what Sony will be able to pull, but again, any multimedia will probably necessitate file conversions etc.

    As far as enterprise goes, we can see now that PPCs are beginning to come down in price. Why pick a $399 Palm m515 when a just-as-thin and more powerful $399 Toshiba e310 is right next to it? The arguments about size and battery life are just not there anymore. Supposedly, HP is releasing the iPaq 2200 series which is a thin sub-$300 color PDA. Slowly but surely, PPC manufacturers are realizing the gaps that they need to address to gain market share. Rest assured that if Palm keeps sleeping on their OS, PPC will be the dominant force sooner rather than later.

    Thadrool

    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:52:28 AM #
    I forgot to add, too, that on PPC accessing expansion cards is utterly seamless. Not a pain at all. It's also been great being able to browse my entire device through Windows Explorer on the desktop. These are things Palm doesn't have and may not ever have that put it at a distinct disadvantage.

    The reason Palms have had great success over PPC is due to one reason and one reason only: Price. As soon as price becomes an even playing field, then we will see which one consumers prefer.

    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:11:29 AM #
    Well said Thadrool. Price explains for the market share Palm now have, but as the price of both PPC and Palm evens out, the PDA market landscape may change. And the price of both these devices may be the same in a year or two time, as it stands today the price difference is not wide.

    As I pointed out in my replies earlier, Palm has always overlooked ex-Palm users who switched to PPC and never looked back, yourself being a good example. Who wants a crippled PDA with no sound and worst of all in greyscale all in the name of simplicity? Notice how Palm is slowly adding features that PPC now have.

    You have also rightly pointed out that the Palm interface is not necessarily simpler than the PPCs. I myself have been used to Microsoft's interface that when I first picked up the PPC, I am comfortable with the wallpaper, the start menu, etc just like the desktop pc. When I hold a Palm today, it still takes me some getting used to, having to relearn the interface. Although it is intuitive, it is not easier than PPCs and it would be easier for one who does not have a PC background to acquaint the Palm than one who is used to the PC.

    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:55:59 AM #
    Beware the oft-repeated Palm mantra: If they don't have it, then users don't need it. But have you noticed more PPC features creeping up to Palm models lately?
    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:07:02 AM #
    Right on the mark, ThaDrool. After using a sony T615 for a couple of months before my friend reclaimed it, I'm having difficulty justifying why I'd buy a T615 over a Toshiba e310. The only things holding me back are the Clie's looks and Sony's recent $100 price cut. Trust me, if the Clie was still retailing for $399 like the Toshiba, it'd be no contest. PPC simply does natively what takes dozens of memory-taking hacks to do on Palm, and without all the problems of format translation.
    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:39:59 AM #
    > But have you noticed more PPC features creeping up to Palm models lately?

    Did you read the editorial at all? The reason why Palm didn't have many of PPC's features (and why PPC shouldn't have had them until now) is in there.

    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:52:46 AM #
    "Did you read the editorial at all? The reason why Palm didn't have many of PPC's features (and why PPC shouldn't have had them until now) is in there"

    Don't confuse opinion with fact. Ed's editorial offers a compelling argument for how technology has effected the innovation practices of Palm and Microsoft, but it is still just a theory.

    If Palm were really only concerned with the hardware catching up to the software, they would have continued to innovate after the Palm V and basically done what Sony has done in the past couple of years. Instead, Palm rested on its laurels.

    And can you honestly say that the many new features that make OS 5 seem so attractive would have been in OS 5 had PPC not had them first? PPC's growing market share has caused Palm to take notice and, if nothing else, influenced Palm's new OS. Therefore, I think that the conclusion that Palm is now incorporating many PPC features in its new OS is a fair one to make.

    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:24:17 PM #
    I see a few problems with the editorial.

    First, I think it's a good thing that PPC packed features in and waited for the hardware to grow into it. That way, once hardware reached its destination (which it has), there's no need for a new OS, no need for new software, no need for anything.

    With Palm, you folks are basically having to wait for a new OS. You will either have to buy the new OS and update your device, or get a new device with OS5.

    And also, the hardware for Palm has been there, if they wanted to take it. Just look at the 206mhz ARM processors (and now the 400mhz x-scale).

    Don't get me wrong - Palm's are fine for simple use, and are pretty easy to use. But anyday, I would pick a PPC over Palm for several reasons - multimedia, the apps like word and excel, the good games, and the sheer power.

    Switching sides
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:17:36 PM #
    Actually, it's quite interesting to see how many former PPC-users are now posting in the various Clie Yahoo groups.
    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:04:31 PM #
    Nice point. NR70 is something PocketPC just doesn't match right now.
    However, you probably DON'T see many former PPC-users posting in PALM groups.
    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:57:31 PM #
    >First, even if we're running at 200 mhz, as a
    >Palm user I'd still have to deal with the
    >conduits and with the file conversions. These are things that are almost non-existant in PPC. Drag
    >and drop Word/Excel files. Outlook syncs natively. Open jpgs and mp3s natively with no conversion.
    >I can't tell you how much of a joy it's been to be able to just open up File Explorer, tap on a file
    >and open it.

    Hmmm... here we go...

    Word and Excel files must be converted on the PPC platform - that's why they loose advanced formatting when you move back and forwards between desktop and PDA - unlike the better Palm solutions which retain the formatting.

    Open MP3s and JPEGs natively - I do that on my Clie all the time. Granted native JPEG viewing requires 3rd party software coating me $20 - but my PAlm cost a darn sight less than a PPC...

    And yes - explorer-like access to files is missing on PalmOS - but then again any decent Interaction Design person will tell you that the whole file based system is as intuative as a door with a nice pull handle on it that you need to push...

    Cheers
    Russsell

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    (on a rant :)


    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:15:11 PM #
    Word and Excel files must be converted on the PPC platform - that's why they loose advanced formatting when you move back and forwards between desktop and PDA - unlike the better Palm solutions which retain the formatting.)
    Yes you have to convert if you are using activesync. But word and excel can recive regular pc files from the internet or pc without active sync just fine. No conversion is needed.

    (And yes - explorer-like access to files is missing on PalmOS - but then again any decent Interaction Design person will tell you that the whole file based system is as intuative as a door with a nice pull handle on it that you need to push...)

    Sorry PalmOS File system just plain Stinks. No comparison

    RE: One-sided article. Inaccurate
    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 5:02:22 AM #
    I would get a ppc definatly, if i had the money. palm needs to keep its low end market, the high end is becoming overtaken by ppc

    Something to think about.

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 3:47:29 AM #
    in the middle of chest thumping, lemme just list some concern:

    1.how fast is fast? thus far we have qualitative extrapolation, not even some engineering number.

    2.what's that 80% software title will run? Doesn't all the major and important software titles actually have some for of hack or another? (ie. non standard call? otherwise it won't be able to offer feature on limited OS call)

    3. peripheral and it's driver. How long did it take Palm Inc. to get the BT out of the door after they announce plan to support?

    4. will the 5.0 offers some significant killer app? to answer the question why do I wanna buy that? it really just the Sony t615 on ARM. Palm keep bragging about necessity over frivolous features. This fact will haunt them.

    5.The hardware itself. (where is it? all the talk about how ugly, bloated, and expensive PPCs are, but they are here and competing on the store shelf with all the feature. Where is OS 5.0? Furthermore from past experiance we can't really say Palm inspire great confidence on designing new color device. Let alone on some totally new never been tried before CPU. $399 m515 anyone? By september that would be the price for 64Mb Xscale, and palm won't be able to price anything above that unless they offers some significant feature.

    6.How does it function in enterprise network? (wireless, security, etc etc. sure it got the hook, does it work? does anybody actually write software using them? how about the server side? that not to mention the peripherals)

    kinda too early to declare victory isn't it? when there is no single device being announced, let alone braggina bout how it would chew up PPC dominance in $400+ market.

    RE: Something to think about.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:02:31 PM #
    1 - given the way PalmOS 5 works - which you obviuously don't understand - such "engineering numbers" in absolute is not possible. So the current and honest "most apps will run much faster but some with intensive non-gui operations may run slower on a similar processor speed" is actually pretty good.

    2 - Actually all the important apps run fine already under OS5 - IE AdressBook, DateBook, ToDo, MemoPad :-P Even beyond my irony... most apps don't use non-standard calls. Games... yeah they often write directly to the screen - but the worthwhile ones will be upgraded - in fact lots already have been.

    3 - M$ don't have any BT cards on the market. BT solutions excist for the PPC platform - yeah. As they have for the PalmOS for well over a year. In fact before any mass-market phones existed with BT. And now BT support is part of the PalmOS - not so for PPC.

    4 - If you think neccesity over frivolity is bad thing... oh I can't be arsed...

    5 - Palm make hardware - just like Compaq or Toshiba. Just because one licensee of PalmOS doesn't have a good color device doesn't mean the platform is doomed. Maybe another licensee will do better. Sony for example.

    6 - Wireless. Erm... you have 802.11b and BT for Palm and Handspring Visor devices. And when you can't find an 802.11b network on a PalmOS device... it doesn't chew up 80% of processor time looking for a network. EG - you can debug a PalmOS device with a non-connected 802.11b card in it - can't do that on PPC.

    And the 400$+ market... yeah... real good numbers there (ohhh.... Bill Hicks would kill me for saying that...)

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    (the rant continues...)

    RE: Something to think about.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:43:07 PM #
    1. well that doesn't mean anything is it? hence all the cris-crossing opinion and vague answer about "speed". Somebody SHOULD run a standardized test. If not for being an informed buyer, at least for the novelty value of it.

    2. all the office apps and database use a tweaked up calls, not to mention things like "true fonts in wordsmith'. Unless you suggest that the 80% are just that built-in and small student homemade apps. (Isn't game big part of Palm software market?)

    3. ehrrr.....what you mean no "bluetooth"? PPC supports CF BT way before palm KNOW what to do about wireless. and can you say "built-in" BT iPAQ before Palm even sold that Toshiba BT SD?

    4. Palm declared spreadsheet in handheld and Color are frivolous around early '00. Also multimedia and sound mind you. That just to underscore the attitude.

    5.It's Palm Inc. we are talking here. The first OS 5.0 OMAP hardware remember? the one who suppose to give initial first impression? It also supposes to "JIBE" along with current marketing sound bite regarding PPC is bloated, ugly, short battery and expensive. So Palm better come up with something that fullfill customer expectation they are building. Otherwise, stop talking as if Palm Inc already have some superior solution which will snuff out PPC. WOuldn't it be funny if the first Palm inc device will be slow, bloated, short battery and expensive? (ie. think Palm IIIc, m505)

    6.and the Palm just go KONK after connecting to the network since it cannot do anything beyond some apps that do simple text shuffling.

    .......well we'll see how this "universal triumph" will end after december. I don't see any killer features that will revive the Palm's luster.

    The market situation will remain the same, Palm will primarily sells for low end customer who want organiser and simple text apps while everything else would be dominated by PPC starting from $350.

    RE: Something to think about.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 2:48:04 AM #
    could you guys learn some grammer?
    RE: Something to think about.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:29:59 PM #
    "grammer"

    could you learn some spelling?

    BlueTooth
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/12/2002 7:52:29 PM #
    3. ehrrr.....what you mean no "bluetooth"? PPC supports CF BT way before palm KNOW what to do about wireless. and can you say "built-in" BT iPAQ before Palm even sold that Toshiba BT SD?

    Uh, I've got to take exception to this. There is no BT-support in the PocketPC operating system, the drivers are supplied by the peripheral and device manufacturers. Same with Windows for the desktop.

    Also, Sony had a Bluetooth peripheral for their N710C (BT spec v1.0, released in Japan only) when it was released in Japan in early 2001.

    I had an iPAQ H3875 that I was using as part of a Bluetooth demo to IBM. The radio was v1.1-compliant but the drivers were completely buggy. Compaq finally shipped a service patch with drivers that worked better, but too late for the demo. We used Palm m505s with the Toshiba/Palm SDIO cards without problems. (for anyone interested: we were also using the 3Com BT PCMCIA card; Sony-Ericsson T68i cell phone and HP 995c printer -- very cool stuff :)

    Don't just take my word for it: do a Google for "Cahers Bluetooth" for an independant advisory committee's assessment of current Bluetooth devices. The Palms and Pico's BT access point actually got perfect scores. There were a number of incompatibility problems with the iPAQ.

    A further frustration of mine: I'm using a new PPC2k2 Toshiba e570 and would love to get the BT SDIO card working with it. Unfortunately, although the hardware is quite nice, Toshiba has really poor customer service and hasn't released the drivers. Tsk.

    World war III: M$ vs. Palm

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:21:55 AM #
    Since Palm Computing finished making Palm OS 5.0, they'll be able to see the result when Palms with Palm OS 5.0 compete against PPCs with PXA 250(Xscale processor). IMHO it will take at least 6 months ~ 1 year to see any consequences.

    I've been using Palm and Clie for years and now Palm OS 5.0 has the multimedia and network(wireless included) funtionality. If PPC with 400MHz processor still operates slowly when lots of applications are running, I'll stick with Palm of new Clie again.

    Go Palm, go go go! :)

    RE: World war III: M$ vs. Palm
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:22:48 AM #
    PalmOS doesn't multitask. When it does it will slow down with many applications running at once. All OS's do because there is a finate pool of system resources.
    RE: World war III: M$ vs. Palm
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:05:29 PM #
    I've heard Palm OS 5.0 supports multitasking. Is that true?
    RE: World war III: M$ vs. Palm
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:10:58 PM #
    It will support multitasking eventually, as well as do many other things that have been claimed but won't be a part of rev 1.

    Interesting theory , but . . .

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:03:04 AM #
    If Palm were really only concerned with the hardware catching up to the software, they would have continued to innovate after the Palm V and basically done what Sony has done in the past couple of years. Why wait until OS 5 to release a 320x320 screen? Instead, Palm rested on its laurels because it could. It had no competition.

    Enter Microsoft. Can you honestly say that the many new features that make OS 5 seem so attractive would have been in OS 5 had PPC not had them first? PPC's growing market share has caused Palm to take notice and, if nothing else, influenced Palm's new OS. Sure, technology may have an influence: With the release of the Toshiba e310, the additional capabilities of a PPC can now be had in a package as small and as affordable as a Palm. Palm has to respond or risk losing more of its market share.

    RE: Interesting theory , but . . .
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:14:30 AM #
    And don't think for a second that MS will stay stagnant. I guarantee you that they'll develop more improvements for the Xscale processors for the power user while continuing to move into Palm-territory with devices like the e310 and HP's new sub-$300 PPC.

    I personally would never want to see the day where Palm or PPC becomes the clear-cut winner. If both survive and continue to vie for the same market, the only winner will be the consumer, which is the way it should be.

    RE: Interesting theory , but . . .
    mtg101 @ 6/11/2002 7:18:44 PM #
    Rants and anit-M$ bias aside...

    >I personally would never want to see the day
    >where Palm or PPC becomes the clear-cut winner. If both survive and continue to vie for the same
    >market, the only winner will be the consumer,
    >which is the way it should be.

    Here here!

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    Too late?

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:11:13 AM #
    I'd really like to see PalmOS succeed in the long term but consider this.

    Apple had the best technology and the best OS for years whilst MS played catchup. Now Windows dominates the desktop market. Apple hangs on to its market share by becoming more and more MS compatible (and uses much the same hardware)

    With PalmOS vs. PPC the reverse was true. The PPC had the best hardware and arguably the most functional OS. Now Palm is playing catchup. Will it really dominate or will it become more PPC like to survive as a niche product with its loyal fan-base?

    Another point worth considering is the vast pockets of the PPC manufacturers compared to PalmOS ones. ie, HP, Casio, Toshiba etc. They can release many models to fill all niches and afford to take a long term view of profit earning. In the PalmOS camp only Sony is of equivalent stature (hence the 3month product cycle)
    This may have more of a long term effect on Palms sucess rather than any consideration of the technical merits of the OS.

    RE: Too late?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:46:53 AM #
    looking at the 'new' features added to the OS 5.0, Palm Inc is definitely on catching up mode. There is NO single feature that would makes one think "HEY now, that's interesting' I wonder if that would be neat.

    It's like the same feeling the first time you see: 'color', multimedia, expansion perpherals, good application.

    Instead of: oh I've seen it before, heard it, done that...etc.

    RE: Too late?
    Ed @ 6/11/2002 10:52:03 AM #
    Windows beat the Mac OS because its lower hardware requirements meant computers running it were cheaper. The situation is exactly opposite now. The Palm OS will continue beat PPC because its lower hardware requirements allow Palm OS handhelds to be cheaper.

    The Palm OS isn't playing catch-up with PPC. As I said in my editorial, PalmSource simply waited to add multimedia until it was sure it could do so successfully. Microsoft didn't wait and so over-promised and under-delivered.

    While H-P and Toshiba have deep pockets, so does Sony. And PPC's dependence on large PC manufacturers might even be a weakness. The iPaq will never be H-P's main focus. If it runs into problems and needs to do some cost cutting, what is more likely to be cut, a PC line or the iPaq? Palm, on the other hand, will never stop making handhelds.

    ---
    News Editor

    RE: Too late?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:23:41 AM #
    windows beat apple because it separate the inclusive OS on hardwares connection, and the marketing driven on feature addition. This chaotic system was not very elegant in the beginning, in fact it cannot offers same quality devices such as Apples. But once standart and working emthods are establish it just win, since there are so many more market player attacking categorized problems.

    Apple on the other hand thinks they can do the best hardware and tightly written OS for it is the best approach. That on top of "We know the how to make the most beautiful machine" for you attitude. That works in the beginning, but they never can compete against open market inertia which prefer "cheap, interchangable, work just fine" approach.

    It is arguable which OS require less hardware to run, in fact 68k was far more powerfull than early 286/386. and the situation reversed when big windows come out.

    Palm is indeed playing catch up, since all the hardware and design are widely available around the time they introduce IIIc, and Compaq's iPAQ. It's a mix of their hardware enginnering incompetency, and conscious decission to keep selling proven successfull product with minor variation wrapped in new marketing. (Vx, m1xx, m5xx).

    In fact I fail to see any structural change in Palm Inc. which address this catastrophic situation. They still cannot prove themselves as hardware visionary and depends heavily on TI for the OMAP. (but we shall see)

    On the OS side they fail to address the big shift of convergence in the OS5.0. A BIG sign that they are playing catch up by just addressing the multimedia aspect, a market demand proven exist by PPC and Sony. Palm Inc is answering yesterdays's challange today, instead of tomorrow's challange today.

    for eg. no GAPI mentioned anywhere in OS 5.0, neither inter network roaming technoloy, or more advance server client technology. Something that Microsoft is betting heavily in the 4.0 version. Some will fail no doubt, but some will succeed. (that's the cost of innovation) All key "new features" introduced in OS5.0 is a challange from LAST year. The PDA world has move on in the meantime.

    About deep pocket. It's true for bleeding edge hardware. (screen technology, wireless, manufacturing technique, etc Nobody can compete against Nokia, Sharp, NEC, or Toshiba). But not on vision and software. Palm has enough time, resource and early momentum to keep long term dominance based on superior OS features, applications and lock key hardware partner, but they botch it. Instead they stuck with that crappy zen thing while the world moves on.

    Not even Sony, a japanese company mind you, believe that crap. Cutting edge feature sell !

    RE: Too late?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:05:28 PM #
    If PalmOS is to Windows, then PocketPC is to Mac? Nice analogy, since I find both PocketPC and Macintosh superior to Palm/Windows. Small marketshare doesn't mean success.
    RE: Too late?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:16:07 PM #
    You've got the right idea there. Brand loyalty is for idiots. You need to choose the right products for you whoever makes them (just make sure they work together!).

    I had a HS visor delux for my first PDA now I use a Toshiba e570. I loved my HS, and hope their Treo strategy really pays off for them, but I'd be a fool to suggest that Handspring have any product comparable to the e570.

    Maybe PalmOS 5 or 6 will be as useful as PPC2002 but I need a PDA now and it's the Tosh. In a couple of years I'll need a new one if Palm OS has the advantage then I'll go back to it.

    RE: Too late?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:31:31 PM #
    ed said that palm is waiting "until the time is right" to put nice features into palm. he said that MS screwed up by bringing these features in early. well, look at everything NOW. not in the future, but right now. except for the sony's separate programs (not palm), only ppc's can play mp3s and watch videos. so which os wins as of now?

    Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!

    heyday @ 6/11/2002 11:52:54 AM #
    Ok the truth be told that MOST of you PPC Bashers out there have never used a Pocket PC for an extended amount of time.

    I'll tell you my experience. I used a Palm for about 5 years going through about every new model that came out. I really loved it... But about 4 months ago I realized that I needed color and a clearer display because of my eyesight. So I went down to CompUSA to look at the new Sony Clie and was impressed. But then I also saw the Pocket PCs and the Audiovox Maestro was $299. I played around with it for about 15 minutes and then decided, "What the heck.... I'll buy it and try it for a few weeks then bring it back if I don't like it". I've always been criticle of Pocket PC telling people all the bad things about it... all of it propiganda that I had heard from sites and articles like this...

    Well all I can say...... it took about 3 weeks to get used to it because I kept thinking in Palm mode and all the wierd ways that Palm handles things like running programs off of a storage card with Autocard and the sort.

    After about one month I picked up my Handera 330 and went YUCK! I couldn't beleive how much better my Maestro was.

    I tell you I would bet that 98% of you out there who say Pocket PC sucks have never really used one for more than 2 minutes. You are just soaking up all the propaganda that Palm and sites like this post.

    Here is why I like my PPC better than any Palm I have ever used:

    1. Color and Graphics can't be beat.
    2. Software is much more advanced.
    3. Syncing is way better - I love the Activesync
    4. Games are way better.
    5. Music - mp3s are great to listen to.
    6. Install programs to storage card. Works so well. I only have 16megs in main memory but a 340 meg CF card with TONS of programs, music, movies...
    7. MOVIES! Now I can watch pocket DivX movies on the Go. I love watching Seinfeld on my Pocket PC!
    8. Way better Internet such as e-mail, web browsing, Terminal Server.

    Battery life is not as great but I've never had a problem. Just keep a car charger and and external charger around and no problem.

    One thing that drove me crazy at first was the NOTES feature. Way different than Palm. I found a program called HPC NOTES that gives me all the functionality and syncing that I had with Palm so that is great now.

    Seriously all you bashers out there really ought to try it for a month before you cut it down. I bet that many of you would convert....

    If all you want is a simple address book then stay with Palm. But if you want all the things that Palm says is going to be in the new Palms then get a Pocket PC because it is already there.

    heyday

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:45:37 PM #
    Ugh - the return of "heyday". Clueless last year. Clueless now. I predict he'll be gushing over a new Clie by September.
    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    mtg101 @ 6/11/2002 7:20:19 PM #
    OK - the PPC trolls win - they've kept me up 'till past midnight when England play Nigeria at 7.30am...

    Anyway...

    1 - Isn't the iPAQ 12-bit color at 240x320? Sony's NR70 is h320x480 @ 16 bit color.

    2 - Like what? Do I have to point out that Palm MS Word apps do better format retention than M$'s Pocket Word again???

    3 - Why is Active Sync better?

    4 - Games. Well... ****. Yeah - recently PPC games - the few that there are - have looked pretty cool. But for choice PalmOS is better. OK.... I'm weak on this point maybe :(

    5 - You can get MP3 extensions for most current PalmOS devices. Most Sony devices play them natively - along with ATRAC3 too...

    6 - PalmOS devices have CF too - and SD - and MS - etc etc.

    7 - I can watch movies on a Sony Clie too. OK - so I can't play DivX. Then again - if handheld TV was so great - why didn't it take of in the 70s when it first appeared???

    8 - Erm... are you saying I can't get email on my Palm? Or run a full color web broswer with Javascruipt support? OK - no terminal server... but we have VNC. Oh- and both VNC and TS are not practical on PDAs anyway....

    PalmOS devices are already there.

    Oh - and I work daily with PDAs of all sorts - PPC, Symbian, PalmOS etc. I choose you - Palm.

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 8:29:23 PM #
    Active Sync is better for one big reason. Your pda is constantly syncronized, so you dont have to remind your self to install that file on your pda. Just Drag and Drop.

    Yes palm has storage cards, but it doesnt have a file system worth 2 cents. PPC cards work as smoothly as putting a cdrom into your computer

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 10:57:20 PM #
    >1 - Isn't the iPAQ 12-bit color at 240x320?
    Wrong! The first generation PPC 2000 iPAQs were 12-bit. All the current units are 16 bit color, and the screens are far superior to anything the beleaguered, soon-to-die Palm platform has put out.

    >Sony's NR70 is h320x480 @ 16 bit color.
    A shameful waste of pixels. PalmOS is impractical for hi-res. Besides WordSmith and ActionNames, what other useful applications use it? YiShow doesn't count.


    > 2 - Like what? Do I have to point out that Palm MS Word apps do better format retention than M$'s Pocket Word again???

    You're pointing out the myths. The truth is that Pocket Word 2002 supports full formatting.

    > 3 - Why is Active Sync better?
    It's faster. Integrates to the desktop nicely. Automatically.


    > 4 - Games. Well... ****. Yeah - recently PPC games - the few that there are - have looked pretty cool. But for choice PalmOS is better. OK.... I'm weak on this point maybe :(

    You can't win there.


    > 5 - You can get MP3 extensions for most current PalmOS devices. Most Sony devices play them natively - along with ATRAC3 too...

    Palm -OS- does not support mp3 playback at all. It's just a hack job done by the clever geeks at Sony. Please don't congratulate the OS for handling multimedia, because it does NOT!


    > 6 - PalmOS devices have CF too - and SD - and MS - etc etc.

    PocketPC had it first.


    > 7 - I can watch movies on a Sony Clie too. OK - so I can't play DivX. Then again - if handheld TV was so great - why didn't it take of in the 70s when it first appeared???

    I won't respond to this tactless idiocy.


    >8 - Erm... are you saying I can't get email on my Palm?

    With considerable effort, yes.

    >Or run a full color web broswer with Javascruipt support?
    No such thing.

    >OK - no terminal server... but we have VNC.
    Useless.

    >Oh- and both VNC and TS are not practical on PDAs anyway....
    That's what YOU think. Tell that to an enterprise firm.

    >PalmOS devices are alray there.
    You're wrong, again.

    >Oh - and I work daily with PDAs of all sorts - PPC, Symbian, PalmOS etc.
    It doesn't generate any sympathy to your post. You're a Palm zealot.

    > I choose you - Palm.
    I choose you... uh, Pikachu.

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 11:04:36 PM #
    yeah and it all works fine until. . . .
    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    Thaddeus Cultt @ 6/12/2002 1:47:39 PM #
    I thought TRG was out with CF support before PPC. What are the dates on this?


    TC

    "...in the end the only one left smiling was the Jester, and his was only painted on..." - TC

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:34:27 PM #
    handera reviewed by cnet 5/21/01

    casio e-125 ppc reviewed by cnet 9/27/00, with type 2 CF slot

    and what's the point of a cf slot on a palm device (other than sonys), when you can't use file explorer to explore the card, can't move mp3s onto it (cuz you can't play them), and can't move videos onto it (cuz you can't watch them)?

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:37:59 PM #
    oh whoops, the original handera came out 7/21/00. but still, the relatively obscure handera's are the only palm devices with a cf slot.

    the main palm types of expansion are:
    1. sd/mmc. these cards, though small, are extremely expensive - about double the price of cf.

    2. memory stick. sony's attempt to monopolize flash memory, putting the slot in their cameras, computers, pda's, and video cameras. also relatively obscure and non-compatible, and also fairly expensive.


    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 9:23:59 PM #
    I absolutely agree with the original poster.

    Most people complaining have not owned Pocket PCs, and it is obvious that Ed Hardy has not either.

    There are a lot of vicious rumors about Pocket PC.

    "Its slow"
    No its not. Soft reset it once a day, you will have no problems.

    "Its complicated"
    Use it for 2 weeks.

    "It takes forever to get to programs"
    Are you sure about that? Usually 2 taps. Palm OS usually requires three.

    "The new Clie has high resolution"
    Wow. Now my screen will be slightly better!

    "Its unstable"
    I have had various Pocket PCs over 8 months, and I have not had even 1 crash. I use my Palm once every few days, over the last 6 months, and it crashes frequently.

    "The battery life is crap!"
    The HP Jornada 560 gets 14 hours, on par with even the best color palms.

    "There is not as much software"
    I don't need 28 different versions of snake. The PPC software is better anyway.

    "Want multimedia? Get a Sony"
    Multimedia is better on a PPC device.

    "You can delete registries"
    If you are stupid enough to play around with the registries, you deserve a hard-reset. Atleast PPC has a file system.

    And to add to that, PPC is requires no conversions! Docs convert by default, but this is to save size. You can view them in native .doc format if you wish.

    Surprising as it may be, I am a Palm user as well. In fact, I like the Palm OS.

    Its the uninformed users bashing PPC that piss me off.

    By the way, I am not a zealot or a troll, although I know I will be called one, just because I am a PPC user.

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/13/2002 12:19:46 AM #
    Well, to be fair, quite a few posts by PPC advocates are rather misinformed as well. I wouldn't go so far as to call you a troll or a zealot, but pointless sarcasm doesn't lend credence to your arguments. i.e. "The new Clie has high resolution"
    Wow. Now my screen will be slightly better!
    It's half-VGA or double the resolution of the PPC standard...

    Anyways, for fun, let's look at some of the comments a few posts higher up:

    All the current units are 16 bit color, and the screens are far superior to anything the beleaguered, soon-to-die Palm platform has put out.

    Have you SEEN the 480x320 16-bit Clie screen? Compare it to any PPC screen and tell me honestly which is "far superior".


    PalmOS is impractical for hi-res. Besides WordSmith and ActionNames, what other useful applications use it?

    Better get used to HiRes PalmOS devices. There's a nice and growing list of supportin apps at : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/shaun.mcgill/cliehires.htm
    Expect to see HiRes support become increasingly common.

    Also see the new movie player at http://www.kinoma.com/
    Boy, won't that be something on an ARM-based 480x320 PalmOS device? :)

    Oh, and don't forget Tinysheet: http://www.iambic.com/english/palmos/tinysheet/features.html#highres
    Wow - 33 rows of data, charting options, ...


    4 - Games.
    These are looking nice :)
    http://www.iambic.com/english/palmos/bumpattack/default.html
    http://www.kickoo.com/?page=breakout/index


    Or run a full color web broswer with Javascruipt support?
    No such thing.

    Check out Xiino : http://www.ilinx.co.jp/en/

    Etc. I wish more people would providing links to infomation which back up their arguments instead of anecdotal evidence. ("My buddy's Palm V crashes more than my iPAQ, so PPC is more stable than PalmOS." *sigh*)

    Oh, and before the PPC fans get too excited about the next-gen 400MHz XScale PPC devices, do yourselves a favor and have a thorough read here:
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1A725C01

    Hmm. Lucky there's a selection of "PalmOS Ready" processors.

    Let's all get together again in, say, six weeks time and revisit some of these discussions. Oh, do everyone a favor and take a minute to register here at PIC before then. It'll make our discussions a lot more civilized :)

    --- Dan

    Whoops II
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/13/2002 1:35:43 AM #
    oh whoops, the original handera came out 7/21/00

    The TRGpro with CF expansion was actually announced Oct.19, 1999. [The HandEra 300 (dual expansion with SD & CF) was announced April 24, 2001.]

    Handspring unveiled the Springboard expansion technology a little earlier than that: Sept. 14, 1999.

    See www.PalmEvolution.com

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 8:22:25 AM #
    Well, to be fair, quite a few posts by PPC advocates are rather misinformed as well. I wouldn't go so far as to call you a troll or a zealot, but pointless sarcasm doesn't lend credence to your arguments. i.e. "The new Clie has high resolution"
    Wow. Now my screen will be slightly better! It's half-VGA or double the resolution of the PPC standard...

    Anyways, for fun, let's look at some of the comments a few posts higher up:

    All the current units are 16 bit color, and the screens are far superior to anything the beleaguered, soon-to-die Palm platform has put out.

    Have you SEEN the 480x320 16-bit Clie screen? Compare it to any PPC screen and tell me honestly which is "fa superior".


    PalmOS is impractical for hi-res. Besides WordSmith and ActionNames, what other useful applications use it?

    Better get used to HiRes PalmOS devices. There's a nice and growing list of supportin apps at : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/shaun.mcgill/cliehires.htm
    Expect to see HiRes support become increasingly common.

    Also see the new movie player at http://www.kinoma.com/
    Boy, won't that be something on an ARM-based 480x320 PalmOS device? :)

    Oh, and don't forget Tinysheet: http://www.iambic.com/english/palmos/tinysheet/features.html#highres
    Wow - 33 rows of data, charting options, ...


    4 - Games.
    These are looking nice :)
    http://www.iambic.com/english/palmos/bumpattack/default.html
    http://www.kickoo.com/?page=breakout/index


    Or run a full color web broswer with Javascruipt support?
    No such thing.

    Check out Xiino : http://www.ilinx.co.jp/en/

    Etc. I wish more people would providing links to infomation which back up their arguments instead of anecdotal evidence. ("My buddy's Palm V crashes more than my iPAQ, so PPC is more stable than PalmOS." *sigh*)

    Oh, and before the PPC fans get too excited about the next-gen 400MHz XScale PPC devices, do yourselves a favor and have a thorough read here:
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1A725C01

    Hmm. Lucky there's a selection of "PalmOS Ready" processors.

    Let's all get together again in, say, six weeks time and revisit some of these discussions. Oh, do everyone a favor and take a minute to register here at PIC before then. It'll make our discussions a lot more civilized :)

    --- Dan

    I know that some PPC users get a little out of hand on boards like these. These people really annoy me, but Palm Zealots talk like they are from a cult. Their leaders are telling them things that are wrong, inaccurate, or 3 years old.

    I just wish users of both types would be informed before posting, and the lack of knowledge on this thread is really hard to read without getting upset.

    If you were to meet me, I am a very sarcastic person, so that comment was only natural. What I meant was the nr70 my have a better screen, but I'm already satisfied with the screen I have now.

    I'm already registered with PIC, but it takes so long to login after I start writing.

    Your comment about those games, implying Palm gaming is almost/just as good, I think is wrong. Go to www.ziosoft.com www.hexacto.com

    RE: Most PPC Bashers have never used a PPC!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 9:49:17 PM #
    about expansion:
    springboard is dead - the expansion slots are way too expensive, and handspring has killed the expansion slots in favor of SD slots.

    CF in palm has only been used by HandEra, who hasn't had a new model for over a year. And, they've only had two models total. If you asked most people what a HandEra was, they would have you clue.

    Memory Stick is only used by Sony (and in the future, 1 ppc). And it's expensive.

    i love CF.

    Games
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/14/2002 3:49:14 AM #
    Your comment about those games, implying Palm gaming is almost/just as good, I think is wrong. Go to www.ziosoft.com www.hexacto.com

    Both companies make games for both platforms. Currently their PPC versions are more impressive than the PalmOS version, no question (but is NFS ever going to come out??). Hopefully they'll write games for the HiRes ARM PalmOS devices.

    The games Palm_Otaku posted links to are optimized for the Clie 320x480 screen and are AMAZING!

    BTW, has anyone ever commented on how the Palm is a natural extension of the ARM? LOL!

    Ha!

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:21:37 PM #
    That was quite funny. Thanks for the laugh!

    Ed? Slipping.

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:26:06 PM #
    I like Ed, this site and these forums, but Ed. Steve Bush lost his marbles last year. Don't listen to him too much.

    The real issue

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:20:13 PM #
    We could argue until doomsday about which OS has the better this or the better that. There will always be advocates for both who feel that one system just works better for them than the other. I think the real problem I have with this article is how uninformed it is.

    I know it is an opinion piece, but when opinion fails to take into consideration the facts, or in some cases obviously makes them up to fit a hypothesis, than that opinion is utterly worthless, IMHO :)

    The Real Issue: Biased Opinions are Still Biased!
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:18:41 PM #
    I fully agree.

    I read the article. It became clear early on that the author's opinion was clearly biased. I've been writing professionally for CompuServe, CMPnet and WUGNET for more than 5 years. I've had columns, write hardware and software reviews, as well as other editorials.

    One of the most important things an editorial can do for readers is present logical arguments for the writer's overall opinions. This article presents arguments that support the writer's opinions; but the author makes it very clear early on in the article that his opinions are biased because he cannot get passed his anti-Microsoft POV.

    Its too bad, too... When I saw the headline in a newsletter, I had hoped that there was something new and informative in the article and not just a lot of MS bashing...

    Christopher Spera
    Sr. Web Content Editor,
    WUGNET Publications, Inc.
    Windows Users Group Network (WUGNET)
    http://www.wugnet.com

    RE: The real issue
    mtg101 @ 6/11/2002 7:30:03 PM #
    It's easy to say someone else is biased. But just saying it's so is as bad as being bisaed in the first place.

    If you believe that facts have been ignored... why not point them out? I, and I'm sure Ed as well, would be happy to know where he has not got the facts right. But just saying so doesn't make it so...

    russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

    RE: The real issue
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 9:36:39 PM #
    Have you ever even owned a PPC?

    Why do I use a Palm and not a PPC?

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 12:46:00 PM #
    Because I wanted a unit designed to be a mobile addition to my PowerBook, I have had 3 Palm OS devices. While the OS and the hardware is not as advanced as PPC, it is fast, stable, and cheap. I get great battery life with my m500, too.

    PPC, while nice and handy, was not designed from a mobile standpoint. The reason it is so easy to copy "native" files to it is because it's just a hacked up version of a desktop OS. If Apple made a mobile version of OS X for a handheld, I'd guess that transferring native files would be similar to the PPC experience from Windows.

    My view is that the people who want a laptop-like handheld will buy PPC devices, and those who want a supplimentary device will buy Palms.

    Ian
    http://www.destination-life.com

    RE: Why do I use a Palm and not a PPC?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:20:06 PM #
    "PPC, while nice and handy, was not designed from a mobile standpoint. The reason it is so easy to copy "native" files to it is because it's just a hacked up version of a desktop OS."

    This is totally untrue. Just because the PPC interface carries some elements from desktop Windows doesn't mean that the underlying OS is just some kind of port of a desktop OS. Windows CE's code base is completely separate from that of operating systems such as Windows 2000 or XP (and most certainly from Windows 9X). Unlike desktop OS's, CE was designed to run in memory- and power-constrained devices. It was also designed so that it could be quickly ported to new hardware architectures. Calling it a "hacked-up version of a desktop OS" demonstrates that your opinion is based on the uninformed proproganda spread by Palm zealots, rather than a true understanding of the Windows CE platform.

    You give no reasons for your statement that "the Pocket PC was not designed from a mobile standpoint" other than your specious argument about a hacked-up desktop OS. Once one shows that statement as the total steaming pile that it is, your position has absolutely no merit. Funny how a device that "was not designed from a mobile standpoint" supported e-mail, web browsing, PIM functions, notetaking, navigation, expense tracking, entertainment and more for me on a recent 2 week trip, with no PC required. Contrary to your position, my PPC was outstanding from a mobile standpoint.

    As long as Palm devotees continue to be deluded by the exaggerations and half-truths that have been spread as part of their religious zeal as "proof" of Palm's "superiority", pointless chest-beating threads like this will continue to appear. And will continue to be hilarious, as Palm people try to convince themselves that they've made the best choice.

    RE: Why do I use a Palm and not a PPC?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:58:05 PM #
    At least the backlight on my m515 works. Not like the iPaq H3800. HP is going to have to replace how many defective ones?
    RE: Why do I use a Palm and not a PPC?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 2:27:48 PM #
    how is that cradle going?
    RE: Why do I use a Palm and not a PPC?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 1:40:02 AM #
    about backlights - what about Palm's m505 "backlight"? when i saw that model, i seriously thought it was black and white, the screen was so bad. and that was EVERY model!

    Excellent argument you make, but...

    Foo Fighter @ 6/11/2002 12:39:29 PM #
    Some of your points are a little out of date. In particular this one caught my attention:

    >" Hardly any companies are developing for the Pocket PC and so there are few applications."

    This just isn't true. There are now several thousand applications for PocketPC, and a growing list of third party Palm software developers are porting their apps to the platform as well. HandBase, iSilo, Tomeraider...and even Iambic is working on a port of Action Names.

    >"Especially during the burst of sales caused by Palm users upgrading to the new operating system."

    Ah, but there should be a large question mark placed at the end of that sentence. Will consumers upgrade to OS5 in masse? I'm not so sure this OS is compelling enough to merit the upgrade price consumers will pay through new hardware. Especially considering that Palm is locking developers out of creating ARM only applications.

    Overall, I agree that PalmOS will remain dominant. But if OS5 and the next generation hardware coming this fall do not live up to expectations....then Microsoft will continue chipping away at Palm's market share.

    Hardware

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:04:44 PM #
    I'll start by saying I'm a ppc guy and probably always will be. I find it easy, and much more powerful. That said, the arguments about OS 5's battery life and display size, etc. are kinda silly. For one, No hardware exists taking advantage of the strongarms for OS 5 just yet. It'll be a while before we see any. And my bet would be that battery life for the palms will be nearly equivalent when they move onto the strongarms. In fact quite possibly the PALM OS will have a shorter battery life. Now that Palm is going to be using the same processors the hardware is going to have very much the same form factor, so the issue of hardware will likely become mute her in the next year or so. Then it just comes down to features and price. For me ppc has all the features I love and syncs very well with outlook(to be honest if I could find a linux handheld that synced well with outlook I'd probably try that for a while). As far as price, the two have been getting closer and closer and now that the hardware is nearly identical I'd imagine we'll see identical pricing.
    As far as which one will win? I think it'll mostly be a wash for a long time. Give it a few years and the two will be splitting the market until one of them bails. Honestly I think this is a great thing. The lack of competition in the PC market has amounted to some stale innovations. Whereas PDAs seem full of innovation as of late. Why bother arguing over whos going to win, just take advantage of the situation and beg for the features you want as this is one of the few technologies where the creators may actually take notice.
    RE: Hardware
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:24:54 PM #
    Same Author,
    I will hand it to you Sony palm people that NR-70V is very innovative and a beautiful pda. Given that form factor a better cpu and an OS I liked and you'd have my new PDA for sure. Here's hoping the HP/compq merger ships something like that out soon. Love to see it with a more usable camera too, but I digress.

    RE: PalmOS 5 is not in the same league
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:48:00 PM #
    Do your research before you flame a platform you clearly aren't very familiar with. PalmSource is dropping its dependence on Motorola DragonBall processors and is switching to ARM core based ones. There is even a whole program set up to let Palm OS licensees use processors from Intel, T I, Motorola, and others.

    Palm OS licensees will have at least as much choice as PocketPC companies. Speaking of choice, what happened to Microsoft's support for MIPS?

    is it April 1st today!!?

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 1:49:36 PM #
    Someone tell me this guy isn't serious.

    I several PDAs, both platforms.
    A lot of the arguments here are completely false.
    Palm does have it's strengths, but the numbers show Palm is LOSING market share.
    Microsoft is GAINING market share.

    Yes, this MIGHT change with the new Palm OS5 release, but right now, Palm is getting beat.

    Anyone that thinks Palm is going to win hands down is smoking dope.

    RE: is it April 1st today!!?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 7:18:11 PM #
    >>but the numbers show Palm is LOSING market share.
    Microsoft is GAINING market share<<

    Uh, no that's not right, PPC has averaged about 15% for years.

    >>Anyone that thinks Palm is going to win hands down is smoking dope.<<

    Probably not hands down, but PalmOS is the standard and continues to be very popular and successful. PPC sucks less than it used to. Competition is good for the consumer, so hopefully PPC will continue to be around for some time to come. It's the competition between the different Palm device makers that's more interesting I think.

    Based on how overheated a lot of people are getting in here, maybe it would be a good idea if we all shared a nice, fat joint. |-}

    Peace.

    /me starts twisting up a fatty

    The Trolls have Arrived

    JimBob @ 6/11/2002 5:37:29 PM #
    Reading over these letters to the editor, I see a influx of posts from Pocket PC supporters starting about mid-way through it. Anyone know what Pocket PC site posted a link to it with the message: "We're under attack!!"

    I was at that disgraceful Pocket PC summit in Philly a few weeks ago when Todd Kort was dragged off the stage for daring to put something in his presentation that wasn't absolutly pro-Microsoft. It is sad how fanatical Bill's Little Army can be.

    Don't trust any of the messages the Microserfs have posted here. Some of them are correct but many of them aren't.

    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:05:48 PM #
    "I was at that disgraceful Pocket PC summit in Philly a few weeks ago when Todd Kort was dragged off the stage for daring to put something in his presentation that wasn't absolutly pro-Microsoft. It is sad how fanatical Bill's Little Army can be."

    Not true. The auidence began asking Todd Kort questions when he did not stick to the topic he was supposed to. "Anatomy of the Pocket PC Industry". He was also required to have a panel, Todd refused. Todd never talked about any Pocket PC OEMs that is why people started questioning him. Todd also did not submit his presentation to the Pocket PC summit, some say it was bait and switch.

    In the Brighthand forum, Todd Kort admits he had a private dinner with Chris Dumpfy, Palm Employee and with Steve Bush at the Pocket PC Summit.

    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:05:51 PM #
    www.pocketpcthoughts.com posted this article saying how laughable it was that someone would think such a thing.
    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:11:46 PM #
    www.pocketpcthoughts.com also allows comments after their stories. How about a couple of hundred of us go over there and post troll comments? All's fair in love and war.
    RE: Trolls
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:26:26 PM #
    PalmUser Wrote "I was at that disgraceful Pocket PC summit in Philly a few weeks ago when Todd Kort was dragged off the stage for daring to put something in his presentation that wasn't absolutly pro-Microsoft. It is sad how fanatical Bill's Little Army can be."

    Not true. The auidence began asking Todd Kort questions when he did not stick to the topic he was supposed to. "Anatomy of the Pocket PC Industry". He was also required to have a panel, Todd refused. Todd never talked about any Pocket PC OEMs which is why people started questioning him. Todd also did not submit his presentation to the Pocket PC summit, some say it was bait and switch. In the Brighthand forum, Todd Kort admits he had a private dinner with Chris Dumpfy, Palm Employee and with Steve Bush at the Pocket PC Summit. Ed and Steve are buddies.

    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:26:49 PM #
    Thinking is one thing. But it write it down?
    Then to publish it?
    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 7:29:19 PM #
    www.pocketpcthoughts.com also allows comments after their stories. How about a couple of hundred of us go over there and post troll comments? All's fair in love and war.

    It would be preferable if we could have a mature discussion, instead of "Troll-Warz" IMNSHO.

    Of course, PocketPCThoughts doesn't allow anonymous posting, so it's unlikely that the TrollWarz would get out of hand over there (Ed - hint, hint)

    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 1:47:40 AM #
    why are the palm lovers so afraid of us ppc "trolls" giving our opinions?

    my biggest beef is that a lot of you palm people haven't even used a PPC.

    i have used both for substantial amounts of time, and definitely prefer PPC (b/c of NATIVE multimedia, the file exploring, and the more powerful hardware.)

    RE: The Trolls have Arrived
    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 6:19:27 AM #
    One question:
    Why are you here then!!!!???
    This is a palm site, for ppl who like Palm.
    Why are you not at a ppc site then??!!

    Nice try

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 4:24:52 PM #
    OS5 is a step forward, but, none the less, it doesn't close the gap with PocketPC.

    1: It doesn't really exist yet. Sure, it's been shipped to "developers", but where are the devices? We're seeing a flurry of new Pocket PC devices this year but all seems quiet among Palm manufacturers

    2: It's still a single-threaded OS

    "The Palm OS has a very easy to use interface, well adapted to a small screen. Pocket PC has an interface designed for a screen at least four times bigger than any possible on a handheld."

    This is wrong. You may prefer the Palm UI but I do not. The Pocket PC UI is easy enough to use for me, and it seems well adapted to small screens.

    "Now that OS 5 allows new multimedia features"

    Again, where's the beef. Windows 95 featured "new multimedia features" (DirectX) but it took several years for true DirectX games to surface.

    "Hardly any companies are developing for the Pocket PC and so there are few applications."

    Excuse me, but over 15,000 is "few"? Conduits, Jimmy Software, and many other companies develop EXCLUSIVELY for the Pocket PC. Many formerly Palm-only software houses are now acknowledging the success of PPC and developing for it.

    "it's a PC that fits in your pocket"

    From a developer's perspective: yes. That's what I love most about my Pocket PC. I have been a Windows developer for years and the API is very similar on PocketPC.

    From a user's perspective: no. PocketPC may look somewhat like Windows but it certainly does not behave like it. Although PocketPC can multitask, this is not exposed to the user because the OS uses a single-tasking interface.

    "Microsoft has tons of money to pour into it and hates to admit it has failed at anything."

    It hasn't failed at anything. It took a signifigant part of Palm's market share and sold two million copies of the OS.

    "But any other company would see the writing on the wall and drop it."

    You'd like that, wouldn't you. "Palm OS 5 will be the savior of Palm - it's all over for Pocket PC - they should just give up"

    Again, I'd like to say: where's the beef. It's now HP/Compaq, Toshiba, Casio, Fujitsu/Simmens, and many other OEMs (ABIT, etc.) against Palm, Sony and Handspring. It's Microsoft with a stubborn will to win and $40 billion in the bank vs. Palm with sagging stock values and sagging profits.

    "It tailored its OS to what the hardware could handle. That's why the Palm OS has lacked multimedia but had great performance and battery life. Turns out that's what customers wanted and Palm has continued to dominate handheld sales."

    Palm sucked, but Windows CE sucked more. I owned both. But Pocket PC changed all of that. It ditched the 3d crap and the desktop and all of the other windows-like crap. It ran faster on existing hardware. And the hardware only got faster. Now, Palm is doing a 180. From "simple is best" to "simple is best - but with multimedia capabilities, high-resolution, faster processors and sidelit color screens". All of these things are what has made Pocket PC so successful. Palm is trying to catch up to where Pocket PC was in 2000. And Palm will fall flat on their nose several times, just like Microsoft did. Only they don't have $40 billion to help them get back up.

    RE: Nice try
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 5:35:39 PM #
    OS5 doesn't really exist yet. Sure, it's been shipped to "developers", but where are the devices? We're seeing a flurry of new Pocket PC devices this year but all seems quiet among Palm manufacturers

    The Golden Master OS5 just shipped to manufacturers, I'm guessing the first device will be released before the end of July (maybe end of August).

    Heh, but so far in 2002 PalmOS manufacturers haven't been that quiet: Handspring: Treo 180, 270 and 90; Palm: i705, m130, m515; Symbol SPT-1550; Sony S360, T615C, NR70/NR70V, T650C; Acer S-10. Thirteen new models in 5 months... see www.palmevolution.com


    re: applications Excuse me, but over 15,000 is "few"?

    Where do you find reference to this many PPC applications? Or are you counting themes and skins?


    It took a signifigant (sic) part of Palm's market share and sold two million copies of the OS.

    Sure, 2M is nothing to sneeze at, but did you know that the number PalmOS devices is approaching 25M?

    RE: Nice try
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:47:58 PM #
    > all seems quiet among Palm manufacturers

    From right off the start, you made it clear you don't know what you are talking about. In just the past two months we've had the NR70, NR70V, and T650C from Sony, plus the Treo 90 and Treo 270 from Handspring. Go back another month and you get the Palm m515 and m130.

    > but over 15,000 is "few"

    Could you point to the site on the Web where I can find these 15,000 applications?

    > It took a signifigant part of Palm's market share and sold two million copies of the OS.

    Whoa, two million copies you say? That's about how many copies of the palm OS are sold each quarter. PPC had a few months where it cut into Palm's market share but those numbers have been droping back since March. Did you read that part about PalmSource having 87% of retail sales?

    > t's now HP/Compaq, Toshiba, Casio, Fujitsu/Simmens, and many
    > other OEMs (ABIT, etc.) against Palm, Sony and Handspring.

    Again, the ignorance. You left off half a dozen Palm licencees, like Samsung, Kyocera, etc.

    > All of these things are what has made Pocket PC so successful.

    13% of retail sales is successful? Not in my book.

    RE: Nice try
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:32:26 PM #
    > 13% of retail sales is successful? Not in my book.
    Obviously not from an Apple fan.
    RE: Nice try
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:32:26 PM #
    > 13% of retail sales is successful? Not in my book.
    Obviously not from an Apple fan.
    RE: Nice try
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 9:46:07 PM #
    Palm makes 10 dollars on every copy of its OS.

    MS makes much more than that. Also, he was underestimating. The Compaq iPaq, accounting for about 45% of all PPCs has sold 2 million devices. Therefore, atleast 4 million devices have been sold.

    Also, the average Palm device sold is at $184. I can guarantee more profit on each device with PPCs average.

    Also, I know that guy left out atleast 6 licensees in Palm OS, but he did the same with PPC.

    RE: Nice try
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 1:30:07 AM #
    > Palm makes 10 dollars on every copy of its OS.

    > MS makes much more than that.

    No, it doesn't. Licence fees are about the same for both platforms, roughly $10.

    PPC units cost a lot more but they also cost a lot more to make. H-P/Compaq barely makes anything on each model it sells, not enough to cover their R&D costs. Its only hope of ever breaking even is to sell in much greater volume.

    All the PPC makers are tasking a loss, hoping that someday the platform will be successful and they'll make some money. Microsoft has lost many millions on R&D over the past 5+ years.

    My 2 Cents

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:04:45 PM #
    I guess it all has to do with the preferences of the particular user. As for me, a FORMER Palm user, I vastly prefer the PocketPC platform. I've used both and I will never go pack to Palm - it is just plain weak in comparison. I've played with the latest, greatest Palms and still have the same conclusion I came to when I switched - weak.

    I just picked up the Toshiba e740 PocketPC with 400mhz XScale Processor, 64mb RAM, Built-in CompactFlash II and SD/SDIO slots, 1000mah Li-Ion Rechargeable power unit, Integrated/Internal 802.11b WiFi, 320x240 16-bit Bright Backlit TFT LCD Screen, Stereo Headphone Jack, all in the slimmest PocketPC form factor yet. Insert my 1gb (Yes, Virginia, that is 1 GIGABYTE) IBM MicroDrive and this unit is smokin'!

    So, for a power user who desires good PIM functionality along with powerful applications and multimedia capabilities, this former Palm user can only recommend the PocketPC platform.

    As for the demise of the PocketPC platform as described by the author of this BIASED article - that is only wishful think on his part and has nothing to do with reality. No innovation and no noticable improvements on the part of Palm has hurt their market and seen users switching to PocketPC. That is reality. That and the fact that nothing in the Palm world comes even close to the new PocketPC I have sitting next to me right now. Not even close.

    Palm is real soon now, they promise, going to START pushing the 206mhz Intel StrongARM as their processor of choice. That will definitely be an improvement, but PocketPC is already MOVING AWAY from the slower, less powerful 206mhz ARM and to the more powerful 400mhz XScale. Palm is at least one processor generation behind PocketPC.


    Opinions: ya get what ya pay for
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:07:51 PM #
    >>Palm is real soon now, they promise, going to START pushing the 206mhz Intel StrongARM as their processor of choice. <<

    Wrong. PPC is the only handheld locked into the Intel family (and their crappy StongARM). PalmOS manufacturers have the choice of three different ARM-processor families: TI's OMAP, Motorola's MX1, Intel XScale.

    BTW, hold onto your receipt for that e740 -- the other PPC makers aren't releasing their XScale devices until end of July because PPC2002 has "power and performance" issues according to Intel.

    Back under the bridge, troll!

    RE: My 2 Cents
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:19:03 PM #
    400mhz XScale on PocketPC Platform - Now on Toshiba and more models in July

    400mhz XScale on Palm Platform - not in forseeable future.

    Why are you so defensive? I am a former Palm owner who owned a series of Palms. I found that I prefer the power and speed of the PocketPC. You, apparently, do not. Enjoy your weak PDA, little man.

    RE: My 2 Cents
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/11/2002 7:35:09 PM #
    400mhz XScale on Palm Platform - not in forseeable future.

    Oh, what do you base that assumption on? With very few exceptions, PalmOS manufacturers don't pre-announce their devices months in advance like some PPC manufacturers do.

    Why are you so defensive? I am a former Palm owner who owned a series of Palms. I found that I prefer the power and speed of the PocketPC. You, apparently, do not. Enjoy your weak PDA, little man.

    Interesting. I didn't note any defensive attitude in the post previous to yours. Nor did that post resort to name-calling...

    FWIW, I currently own a number of PalmOS PDAs, a few WinCE devices (Casio E-10, Philips Nino 500, Toshiba e570), and several pre-1996 PDAs. I try to keep an open mind and stay informed about the different platforms too. My personal preference is still the PalmOS for many reasons: UI elegance and efficiency, software selection, battery life, device size, and a broad selection of devices.

    RE: My 2 Cents
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:44:03 PM #
    "BTW, hold onto your receipt for that e740 -- the other PPC makers aren't releasing their XScale devices until end of July because PPC2002 has "power and performance" issues according to Intel."

    At least the XScale PPCs are at the stage in development where you can have actual devices that can be tested for "power and performance" issues. As for Palm, do you think that the switch to OS 5, if its such a huge change, will go over without a single hitch? Please.

    RE: troll's 2 Cents
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 2:14:58 AM #
    > [The e740 has] the slimmest PocketPC form factor yet.

    False. Do your homework troll.

    > Insert my 1gb (Yes, Virginia, that is 1 GIGABYTE) IBM MicroDrive and this unit is smokin'!

    Virginia must be really behind the times if your power hungry microdrive is so revolutionary in her eyes. If you were the type of power user you claim to be - and not just the battery power user you really are - you'd have a regular 1GB CF card sans microdrive.

    > As for the demise of the PocketPC platform as described by the author of this BIASED article

    This was not a biased article. It was an editorial, clearly labelled. Do you get all up in a huff every time you spot an editorial in the newspaper? Why don't you go write a letter to the NY Times editor with accusations of being "BIASED" (btw, nice use of all caps... not).

    > Palm is real soon now, they promise, going to START pushing the 206mhz Intel StrongARM as their processor of choice.

    False. Do your homework, troll.

    RE: My 2 Cents
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 10:24:06 AM #
    >> [The e740 has] the slimmest PocketPC form factor yet.

    > False. Do your homework troll.

    OK, Palmhead - which PocketPC has a smaller form factor than the e310 or e740?

    >> Insert my 1gb (Yes, Virginia, that is 1 GIGABYTE) IBM MicroDrive and this unit is smokin'!

    >Virginia must be really behind the times if your >power hungry microdrive is so revolutionary in her >eyes. If you were the type of power user you claim >to be - and not just the battery power user you >really are - you'd have a regular 1GB CF card sans >microdrive.

    1GB is 1GB - CF Card or hard drive. MicroDrive is cheaper than CF. How many Palm devices have you seen with an actual hard drive?

    >> As for the demise of the PocketPC platform as >>described by the author of this BIASED article

    >This was not a biased article. It was an editorial, >clearly labelled. Do you get all up in a huff every >time you spot an editorial in the newspaper? Why >don't you go write a letter to the NY Times editor >with accusations of being "BIASED" (btw, nice use of >all caps... not).

    Okay, it was a BIASED editorial - and an IGNORANT one too. Ed doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to PocketPCs. Neither do you, obviously.

    >> Palm is real soon now, they promise, going to >>START pushing the 206mhz Intel StrongARM as their >>processor of choice.

    >False. Do your homework, troll.

    Look, every PocketPC manufactured in the last year has been at least a 206mhz ARM. The new ones will be 400mhz XScale. Palm and other manufacturers are still cranking out 40mhz palmtoys right now. A few are manufacturing with faster chips, some will adopt 206mhz ARM eventually. But the point is that the vast majority of Palm devices in use right now has a much slower/much weaker CPU than the vast majority of PocketPC devices.

    If there are 1 or 2 manufacturers who make 1 or 2 models (possibly 1 to 2 percent of the Palm market, if that) that have 206mhz or faster CPUs it doesn't negate that fact the the slowest PocketPC you'll find anywhere is 133mhz, most are 206mhz, and the new ones are 400mhz. It is obvious that Palm loses if you're looking at CPU power and speed - deal with it. So, cling to your more elegant UI thing (although, having used Palm for years I disagree - I prefer the PPC UI).

    Ed is Scared

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 5:44:52 PM #
    Ed earns money from the Palm platform. If Palm goes down, so does PIC. In an act of desperation, Ed is quickly trying to deceive you Palm users with distorted information, so as to keep you loyal to Palm and therfore making money for ED. The FACT remains, that Ed is BIASED toward the Palm platform and therefore he must be taken with a grain of salt. By the way Ed, in time past, you were not preaching that the PPC features were too soon, but UNNECESSARY and that most people did not want multimedia features in their PDA. Now that Palm is incorporating these features, you conveniently change your story to "not the right time." If you want UNBIASED information on both platforms, visit PDABuzz.com!

    Lucan

    YOU are Scared
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:06:21 PM #
    Lucan, if you weren't worried that your precious PocketPC would go the way of Microsoft Bob, you wouldn't be posting messages like this one on a Palm site.

    How can you accuse Ed of being biased and bring up PDABuzz in the same breath? Maybe you haven't noticed how biased PDABuzz is because you are just as biased.

    RE: Ed is Scared
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:12:58 PM #
    That's just it. I'm not worried about my precious pocketPC. I like both camps for different reasons. I have switched camps several times recently and will probably continue to do so. I dislike totally biased people and sites (including pocketpc camp). At least pdabuzz makes money from both sides and is less likely to deceive the readers for financial gain.

    Lucan

    PDABuzz's Bias
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:27:45 PM #
    I prefer Ed's honesty in making it clear that he prefers the Palm OS. PDABuzz pretends to be unbiased but isn't.
    RE: Ed is Scared
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 2:57:16 AM #
    it's not pdabuzz. it's PPCbuzz.
    RE: Ed is Scared
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 9:55:11 PM #
    Why the hell does everyone think Wes is PPC biassed???

    His main PDA is a Handspring Treo!!!

    I hate zealots, but I like PPC zealots better, as they do not make up their arguments, or base their opinions on assumptions.

    Which is better?

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 6:47:08 PM #
    I started out as a plam user and by all menas i love them as a llow end cheap organiser. However i had seeveral problems with.
    1
    The graphity interface was horrible as well as the keyboard, having to exit in and out of it every time iwanted to to go from one item on a conact or another
    2
    expandablity
    palm devices in general had no compatabilty for hardware, i.e. no genreic expansion
    a modem for a palm v would not work with a palm 3 or a sony or a handspring
    where as with pocket pcs as long as it as the ability to have aCF modem it can! "saved money"

    these are just 2 reasons although Very imporntat reason i switched to Pocket PC's besides better software and mulit media and better internet instead fo web-clippings

    Now i still thinkthe palms under $200 are a great deal but there is no way im going to buy a $300 palm whne a $300 PPC is availiable


    agreed

    PIC mobile user @ 6/11/2002 7:39:58 PM #
    Your right. The bottom line is - it is easy, able, and cost effective.

    hahaha

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 1:02:49 AM #
    Just like you say PPC trolls are only "justifying their purchases", you are only "justifying sticking to the palm OS".

    The palm has a simpler, easier OS, I know that. Ok, if you want simple, why not using a royal da vinci or just switching to a plain old paper organizer?

    The early pocket pc's had poor battery life and a complicate OS. But if you're going to take refuge on that, you're over.

    The pocket pc 2002 devices got better battery life, a better OS than before (Palm OS is still simpler and easier, but not more stable), and can do much more stuff.

    For instance, the battery life of a new ipaq or jornada is better than that of the most powerful clié. A pal's palm Vx crashes MUCH MORE than my ipaq when using avantgo online, ICQ or pocketchess, so we could say that when it comes to more complicate stuff, the PPC2002 platform is actually MORE stable than the palm OS.

    PALM HAS BEEN PLAYING CATCHUO FOR YEARS, AND WHEN THEIR ARM PALMS COME OUT, THEY'LL LOSE THEIR "ZEN OF PALM"(SIMPLICITY) AND THEY'LL BE POCKET PC WANNABES.

    Your "now hardware has finally caught up with software" rethorics is nice, but untrue. The pocket pc 2002 devices are as stable as palm devices, and some palms (Hint, IIIc, visor prism, clie) got WORSE baterry life than 2002 ipaqs or jornadas.. the only difference is that ipaqs run 206MHZ processors and the IIIc runs 20mhz..hahahahaha

    Palm si still simpler and easier to use. Well, if I have to choose between mp3's, videos and multitasking and "simple", I choose the first choice.

    I HOPE YOU DARE TO REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, AND NOT "PRETEND WE DIDN'T LOOK AT IT BECAUSE THIS IS AN OLD THREAD", AND THAT YOU DO SO IN A REASONABLE WAY

    RE: hahaha
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/12/2002 8:26:22 PM #
    Sorry, what did you say your name was?

    Let's consider a few of your points:

    Palm's "easier, simpler, zen" interface. Obviously, you don't get it, so consider it this way: it's a more efficient, logical and intuitive interface. The result is faster access to information; and easy modification of info (edit in place instead of tap, tap, tap, tap...).

    "PPC is more stable." Heh, do a search for "daily resets" on the PPC message boards. PPC2k2 is more stable than WinCE 2.1 perhaps, but more stable than PalmOS? Nuh-uh.

    "When ARM Palms come out they'll lose their zen simplicity" Nah - same efficient UI, more powerful processors.

    "PPC battery life is better than Palms" ROFL! There are a wide range of devices available for both platforms (much wider for PalmOS, of course) but in general, this statement is just blatantly untrue. The current draw from PPC devices' larger screens + higher speed (and less efficient) processors + less efficient OS + ... It's elementary electronics. (To compare on a somewhat level playing field, contrast Symbol's SPT-1800 and the PPT-2800.)

    BTW, another key advantage PalmOS has over PPC is that a wide variety of devices are available over a wide price range. Different people have different requirements, and with PalmOS they can find a device to suit. Go to the-gadgeteer.com and read Julie and Judie's latest PPC reviews: (paraphrasing) "well since they're all basically the same these days". You can choose a high-end Clie if you want multimedia (just like lots of disaffected former PPC-users are doing).

    Hope this helps clear up some of the distortion in your reality field!

    --- Dan

    RE: hahaha
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 4:24:44 PM #
    You've never owned a PPC have you.

    Buy one, use it for a week. You'll see there is more advantages than just hardware. You'll also see it is not hard to use. You will also see how stable it is.

    1 year, no crash.

    RE: hahaha
    Palm_Otaku @ 6/13/2002 10:55:50 PM #
    You've never owned a PPC have you.

    Buy one, use it for a week. You'll see there is more advantages than just hardware. You'll also see it is not hard to use. You will also see how stable it is.

    1 year, no crash.

    Actually I own or have owned a ThinkPad 730T (win95 tablet with Pen for Windows); Casio E-10; Philips Nino 512 for old WinCE (plus Newton, Zoomer and Magic Link for other old PDAs). After 6 weeks with an iPAQ H3875, I returned it and now have a Toshiba e570. Believe me, I'm basing my posts on experience.

    I'm not saying that PPC is too hard to use, but it just doesn't compare when it comes to efficiency. I've been packing the latest and greatest PPC hardware around all Spring and trying out all kinds of apps (including playing around with Bluetooth etc.) But I still CHOOSE a PalmOS device to be the "other part of my brain".

    I find it amusing that PPC advocates will come over to a PalmOS-based news site (BTW we've got a couple of regular PPC trolls at PIC and we're not tarring all of you with the same brush) and claim that their devices never crash etc. When I go to some of the PPC-sites I frequent (like pocketpcthoughts etc.) it's a VERY different story. Take this editorial on pocketnow.com and the comments posted to it:
    http://articles.pocketnow.com/content.cgi?db=articles&id=80
    Apparently, when you're among friends the truth about stability, battery life, etc. come out. If you haven't had a crash in a year, I'd say you're in a distinct minority

    --- Dan

    RE: hahaha
    Weyoun6 @ 6/15/2002 10:57:00 PM #
    Yes pocket pc's crash. i have to do 3 hard resets. but compaired to my old iiix, it is waay diffrent. my palm crashed about 10 times as much as my ppc

    you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 11:50:41 AM #
    This is one of the most uninformed pieces I've ever read. Good thing it's an "opinion" piece, because I could think of a lot of other things I'd call it.

    Palm will eventually win the "war?" Based on what evidence? That its marketshare is slipping? That its weak processor cannot do most things the PocketPC can do? Based on the fact that like Mac users it's becoming an anachronism of itself? Palm may have been the first on the market, but like Mac, they only exist because of the userbase that refuses to see the future and would rather work with their collective heads in the sand.

    Palm, like Mac, doesn't produce anything worthwhile in how many years? And then when they do, they do a "spinjob" on why theirs is a superior platform. Based on what? What evidence is there that Palm can do anything that the PocketPC has surpassed in doing? Color? More memory? Better graphics? Not a single one of these is the Palm good or even passable at.

    Good thing this opinion piece was posted to a Palm-centric site, otherwise you'd be laughed out of existence.

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:29:12 PM #
    I thought your comment was one of the most uninformed I've ever read.

    The evidence is there if you are willing to look at it. The Pocket PC no longer has any advantages over the Palm OS, while the Palm OS has plenty over PPC.

    Palm OS advantages
    * Usability
    * Price
    * Installed user base
    * much larger developer community

    Pocket PC advantages:
    * Microsoft

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:44:38 PM #
    "Palm OS advantages
    * Usability
    * Price
    * Installed user base
    * much larger developer community

    Pocket PC advantages:
    * Microsoft"

    price-wise: if you want a palm with the same multimedia features as ppc, you end up looking at the expensive sony nr70 whatever-you-call-it. $500 for the non-camera version, $600 w/camera.

    sure, you could say that palm wins b/c you can get a $200 low-end palm, but a $600 high-end ppc, but your comparing the low end vs. high end. the cheapest modern ppc is the audiovox maestro, at $300. it comes with color screen, cf and sd slot, all in a nice design. a palm with those features would cost that much.

    PPC has so many more advantages than just MS. multimedia capabilities are huge (for me, at least). the games win, too - snes, mame, age of empires soon.

    and the PPC is NOT hard to use. have you even used one???

    RE: RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:53:44 PM #
    I'm just a poor college student. I'd like multimedia features but I can't pay $300 or more for a PDA. Can I get a new PPC for less than $200? I'd even be willing to give up color.

    Rob

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 10:40:59 PM #
    *Pocket PC Advantages
    File Explorer
    Accepts all usual extensions
    Better software
    etc.

    I think that there are far to many users here that have not used PPC.

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    Weyoun6 @ 6/13/2002 8:13:48 PM #
    to the college student = you might be able to find a first generation Ipaq for cheap, but you could also save up and get the new maestro, especially when the new x-scales come out, the price may fall.

    there is also a grayscale ipaq, but nobody really bought it. shop around.

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 9:56:22 PM #
    "I think that there are far to many users here that have not used PPC."

    What's that supposed to mean?

    If you're saying that stuff is wrong, which one?

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 10:18:47 PM #
    It means that many users here are posting their uninformed opinions.

    - The PPC OS is very stable (called unstable)
    - Quick (called slow)
    - Thousands of softwares (people say there is little software)
    - Up to 14 hours battery life (people say the battery life is crap)
    - Approaching sleek Palm size (said to be twice as big as palms)
    - Extremely easy (called frustratingly hard)

    Nobody saying the things in brackets have ever owned a PPC.

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    Weyoun6 @ 6/14/2002 7:56:44 PM #
    Palm Advantages
    - loyal following
    - large software libray
    - BlueNomad (shuns iambic)
    - Sony, HandEra
    - large mindshare
    -single tasking eliminates need for faster processors, lowering prices
    - simple

    PPC advatiages
    - powerful, multi-tasking os
    - native support for cards (ie pcmcia card can work both in laptop and pda)
    - native support for windows files. (word & excel are optimized for smaller screen, not converted)
    - os doesnt need to be hacked for addition features other than pim
    - faster processors
    - Hp-compaq, Fujitsu, Casio, toshiba-audiovox, soon to be more
    - microsoft
    - several palmos developers are coming over. (PDM, isolo, astroware,etc)

    Whats Equal
    - batt life (apples to apples compair. Dont give me that '' 2 weeks'' junk. You turn the device on w/o backlight on , and when it dies, thats its av batt life)

    - software- (while there are more palm programs, many are old and colorless)

    -simplicity - simple is in the eye of the beholder (i find the ppc much less complex than the palm)

    i hope no side loses, because compititon always helps. when/if palm os 6 comes out as promised, palm will give ppc its run for its money

    If anything is incorrect it here, do tell. Dont give me any of that ms or palm propoganda though

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/15/2002 7:45:47 PM #
    i don't think handera is an advantage. they've made two models to date, and i don't think they have plans for another.
    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    Weyoun6 @ 6/15/2002 11:12:50 PM #
    im only listing handera because they are the only ones besides sony who have bothered to innovate

    RE: you're kidding right? No research makes a bad story
    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/26/2002 7:26:19 PM #
    PPC's blow - end of story.

    Wow.

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 12:30:50 PM #
    Is this guy just clueless or what?

    I don't see any of the PPC users that I know switching to Palm. All I see is my Visor, CLIE, and m105 using friends out shopping for Pocket PCs.

    Was this article written on a Mac?

    Problem with Palm OS

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 2:29:35 PM #
    Palm os Gui is really sucks, and it seems like the approach they've taken has been too conservative in adding new features.. Yea, sure the Palm os backers keep ranting yea, but the hardware needs to catch up and mature before we can add new features to the os. Duh, wake up palm os users... the hardware has caught up a couple years ago, and Palm was asleep at the wheel. I 've used a Palm recently and tried a Pocket pc also and compared, and it seems like the Pocket PC 2002 just blew the palm os out of the water. Sure palm is coming out with os 5.0, but that os 5.0 is still a couple generations behind in the features that Pocket PC already has incorporated. It seems like that Palm will be playing catch up with Pocket PC. No wonder Palms stock price is less than 2 dollars a share.
    RE: Problem with Palm OS
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:50:25 PM #
    also, ever noticed how palm's hardware arrow buttons (the up down) don't include sideways buttons? oh man!
    RE: Problem with Palm OS
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/27/2002 10:25:44 PM #
    Microsoft Product Manager Ed Suwanjindar said OS 5 could pave the way for more powerful Palm-based handhelds, but said the new features it enables are already part of the Pocket PC operating system.

    "We'll start worrying when they start innovating," Suwanjindar said.

    "There isn't anything in there that we haven't provided for one, or in some cases two, releases."

    Suwanjindar added that the move to ARM-based processors will force makers of Palm-based handhelds to start using more expensive chips and screens, potentially removing the cost difference between Palm-based handhelds and those using Pocket PC.

    By Richard Shim
    Staff Writer, CNET News.com
    June 25, 2002, 3:40 PM PT

    RE: Too late?
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 3:41:06 PM #
    I played a video with Kinoma on my m505 yesterday. Hell, I played my first one on a IIIx at least two years ago.

    For Christmas last year, I bought an MP3 player for my kid brother's Visor.

    Funnier than the 3 stooges

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 5:05:33 PM #
    I have never read anything as funny as this article in my entire life.
    While some of these comments were indeed accurate in 1996 we are now living
    in 2002. Please update your knowledge base regarding POCKET PC before writing
    another article.

    32 bit addressing

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 6:50:01 PM #
    Does the PalmOS 5.0 support chunks of memory larger than 64k? Is the stack larger than 2k? Can chunks larger than 64k be stored in files? Is there a standard easy to use hierarchical file system? I realize the Palm is a handheld, but decent memory access (esp with color being here) is an absolute must. Since I don't have any tools to use to test (Palm wants Codewarrior developers to continue to write 68k code), I don't know wether to look at other options for the long term future, or wait and hope Palm doesn't miss the boat again and again like Apple did. Apple || Palm .... many of the same people, many of the same things happening, much of the same closed proprietary methods. Is large chunks of memory to much to ask (like addressing a 1 megabtye chunk at once)
    RE: 32 bit addressing
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 7:12:22 PM #
    Sorry I meant records larger than 64k stored in a file and synced with Windows (stick Mac up Palm's u know what)? I am a Windows/Palm developer (a weirdo if you would), and am nervously looking at PPC wondering if they are creating a better development method for us, like Windows did vs. the Mac. In my opinion the Mac was extremely hard to develop for because of how holy Apple thought the Mac was...high priced tools, subscription fees for support, basically if you weren't a silican valley kid (richy rich), then it was out of the question. Has anybody here used MSDNs vast knowledge and code base? Palm's is the same .pdf files over and over and over again. Sometimes u find 1 page from somebody, but it's tough. The stuff is all to good for a normal person to have.

    In short MS won the desktop by taking CARE of it's developers...will Palm do the same? They haven't yet...take Metrowerks for example, it runs better on Mac than Win. I don't have stats on who is using which system, but why have your best tools on Mac? Does this even show sense? Looks and smells like an Apple again...nice stuff but to stuck up too let normal people like me play.

    RE: 32 bit addressing
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 1:05:57 PM #
    If you're doing general development with MFC or eVB, then the MSDN has more than you will ever need in 18 lifetimes. If you're going hard-core Windows API, then it might fall short in some obscure places, but that's where the Yahoo! windowsce-dev group comes in. These guys will answer any question you can throw at them (heck, 2 or 3 of them are MS MVPs).

    PPC flame war

    Weyoun6 @ 6/12/2002 7:54:40 PM #
    First things first. I am a PPC user. Jornada 567. I also used a Palm IIIx before that. Now why cant we talk civilly without calling eachother names? just because someone disagrees with you about palm, makes he/she a troll? the same is true on ppc forums with palm users.

    Now to state my opinon. PalmOS and PPC are aimed at 2 diffrent markets. PalmOS is aimed at the consumer low end, electronic Daytimer market. thats why they can make $99 devices. PPC is aimed for high-end and corperate, pc in your pocket users. The palmos is limited, yes. But that is because it is supposed to be "Simply Palm". now their are some who believe that if palm doesnt innovate, it will die. That may/maynot be true. Palm must innovate, but not nesesarrily towards the ppc style like it is doing now.

    Now to those who think everyone who likes PPC is a "Micro$erf". i chose a ppc because i wanted a more powerful device that could multitask (listen to music while writing a research paper. my ppc has simplfied my life by not having to carry 3 or 4 devices but one instead. Most people who attack the PPC as complecated or crashing alot, have most likley never used a ppc. After having my ppc for about 6 months, my ppc has hardly crashed. Compared to my old IIIx that is an improvement. The PPC os isnt more complicated, its just diffrent. You cant just expect everything to work the same on diffrent oses. I find the ppc interface to be as equal in quality to a palm's. The thing i most like about a ppc is that it supports windows files nativly. no conversion. I can load a doc, video, acrobat, mp3 file straight on to my ppc without extra programs.

    All i want is to see the ignorance stopped. most PPC and Palm users have never used the device they are bashing. please use a device for a few months before you say it is unstable or to simple. If you have any comments, i will be happy to respond.

    RE: PPC flame war
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 3:57:46 AM #
    Well, now that preference is limited. In a few short months, preference will be based on strict compatability, battery life and programs available. It will become the true test on a leveled playfield. I can't say how it will turn out.

    BTW, a PPC IS more complicated. Not in an overtly major way, but just admit that along with power comes procedure. I originally chose Palm because of price, but now after spending 18 months with it, and seeing my uncle go from an iPaq to a Jornada to an M505, I'm familiar with the stuff. I see a PPC as a small laptop. A palm is a desktop extension. Don't you dare say Palm is low-end. It's more focused in design. It's like saying Game Boy is low-end and Game Gear is high end, because one is more expensive. ... ... okay, maybe the definition of "-end" is for price, but saying that the more expensive ones are for corporations is not. We should ALL know by now at least 1 thing that the cheaper item of the two is ... sometimes a better pick to that person. Palm isn't limited, it's "open," meaning developers can do what they want, rather than monopolizing their own OS, which Microsoft has been REPEATEDLY proven to do. You choose a PPC because you believe that Microsoft's products are as good as some programs will get, a pinnacle if you will. I see Palm as leaving that to the programmers to decide, but sometimes less reliable. My friend's VIIx has crashed more times with hacks and other programs than I have ever seen a PPC do, I can't deny that, and it's a sacrifice an open-end programming world has.

    I can't remember how I started, but I'll just say it now, some things I exaggerate, I'm not going to outright hate someone if they have a PPC or try to sway my friends' purchases, but I will educate them and say WHY I picked what I did. I've gone through this enough in GameCube vs. XBox debates. No one changes their minds, but everybody (Who is willing to) learns about the other if the manner is kept civil.

    RE: PPC flame war
    Weyoun6 @ 6/13/2002 7:40:10 PM #
    I am just trying to state the reasons i selected a ppc. But i would debate with you calling the PalmOS low end. you compared a game boy to a game gear. that is not a good analogy. Palm OS is a game boy and PPC is a N64/Playstation. Palm OS is low end! its 33-60mhz and a ppc is 206mhz. you cant do as much high-end stuff on a 33mhz device.

    RE: PPC flame war
    Weyoun6 @ 6/13/2002 7:47:06 PM #
    I did not pick the PPC because i like Microsoft. I could take them or leave them. If i had my 'druthers i would be using BeOS. I picked ppc because it was the best device for me, and i was tired of waiting for palm to listen to the wishlist of many users.

    The Game Consule Analogies (again)
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/14/2002 1:41:49 AM #
    Palm OS is a game boy and PPC is a N64/Playstation.

    Perhaps in SIZE your analogy is apt: load me up with one of those iPAQs and a dual sleeve baby. Oh, and you'd better throw in one of those nice 22oz. D-cell battery pack extenders! Yehaa - now I'm portable!

    Get a grip, fanboy. Here's a better analogy:
    PlayStation2 vs. Xbox
    - most market share
    - more titles
    - supposedly less powerful but can do the same stuff

    Go get a grip on reality Micro$erf :-P

    GameBoyAdvance vs. GameGear
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/14/2002 2:35:58 AM #
    Not a bad analogy if you're looking at market share...
    RE: PPC flame war
    Weyoun6 @ 6/14/2002 7:53:57 PM #
    Since nobody is listening to my words, im just going to stop aruging this point

    here they go again...

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2002 9:59:02 PM #
    I have read many of the pocketpc advocates' comments and find them amusing. Just like the poor guys who were first in line to buy an XBox only to find that everyone else has signed up with Playstation 2, these PPC advocates are bewildered by the fact that their expensive 400 mhz devices haven't been able to wipe Palm, with its little 33 mhz processor, off the map. They feel that Palm is merely "catching up" by adding some features. However Palm is adding multimedia, multitasking, faster processors etc on a very established foundation based on efficiency, competition and mindshare. It is much easier to add features than to replace a faulty foundation and THAT is why Palm has the edge in the long run. Sure maybe there will be a few complaints about Palm OS 5 but what about Palm OS 6? What about Palm 2 years from now? It will only get better because they are adding to a solid foundation. On the other hand Microsoft will continue to bloat the OS and compete with its own developers instead of encouraging the Blue Nomads and Iambics.
    RE: here they go again...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 1:24:16 PM #
    I agree, it's been amusing to read the comments from these PPC users who just can't stand to read anything negative about their platform or consider that they won't take over the market. I'm more than happy to admit that the Palm doesn't compare to the PPC in certain areas, but it's strengths so far outweigh them that I don't see it losing the lead that it has.

    For what it's worth, I *am* a Palm user that has used the PPC, I was actually given a Jornada by MS to test for them and give them comments back, along with a whole bunch of accessories. This was before Sony really had gotten into the game, so I was really blown away by the color screen and being able to do things like listen to MP3s and record notes. But after a few months, the honeymoon was over and I was ready to go back.

    Frankly, I just found too many things that I could not do that were so easy to do on the Palm. Things that took WAY too long to run. Things that took too many additional steps. Too many apps I loved using on my Palm that had no good alternative on the PPC. And of course, that dreaded lack of a way to close a program. For what it's worth, I twice lost all my information on the Jornada, although I certainly have had it happen on Palms as well.

    The simplicity of the Palm really is one of the biggest reasons it still has market lead. I have no doubt that even with Palm OS 5 coming out, we will continue to see lower-end models for less than $100 that do just the basic organizer stuff. Regular users don't care about a file system or multi-tasking. That's something only geeks care about. They just want something that is easy to use that they can keep their contacts and schedule on. In terms of high-end, I think Palm is playing catch-up with Sony just as much as the PPC. They know they are losing the power users that want all the bells and whistles, and are working towards making them more happy, but we really are, after all, a small part of the market.

    For now, I am back to the Palm, a Sony Clie actually, and am totally happy. I have a gorgeous high-res screen that is a joy to read, two 128 meg sticks of MP3s to listen to and books to read, great battery life, small form factor, and an elegant OS that does all the organizer functions fast and easy. I don't need desktop-quality games, that's what my desktop is for. Instead, I have a couple dozen very high-quality Palm games that are great for killing time when I need to (and don't sap battery life so bad). I have a cable to hook to my cell phone when I need to access email and web on the road. Using the free Eudora suite, I have all the internet access I really need, no problem and it syncs with Eudora (rather than forcing me to use Microsoft Outlook). I also have Pocket Quicken, syncs perfectly with Quicken (rather than forcing me to use Microsoft Money). Which of course is another advantage of the Palm OS, you aren't forced at every turn to use Microsoft products.


    RE: here they go again...
    Weyoun6 @ 6/13/2002 8:06:53 PM #
    what i really find funny is PalmOS fans inablity to take any criticisim of their operating system

    RE: here they go again...
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 9:58:56 PM #
    yeah - ppc users point out what ppc can do that palm can't, and palm users start yelling "form factor! simple! batteries!"
    RE: hahaha
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 6:41:07 PM #
    "Buy one, use it for a week."

    Not again. A while back, I believed people when they told me that Microsoft had fixed the problem with PPC and bought a E-115. It sucked so hard it blew. After fighting with it for a few months, I tried to sell it on eBay and couldn't get half what I paid for it.

    I'm not trying that again unless you are paying for it.

    PPC Complicated?

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2002 8:23:54 PM #
    I am sorry for all those people who think that the PPC is a complicated OS. It took me a lot longer to get used to my PalmV (After realising that I couldnt even open a word doc without some other program installed) than it did to get used to my trusty but crusty Jornada 545.
    And for those that trash the battery life, I have had my PPC for about a year and a half and have NEVER run the battery out, and I listen to mp3's all the way to work and home again, and use it all day at work. Thats without a recharge until im home at night, where it charges in its cradle overnight.

    Sorry but I think PPC's will win, and it will be through the low learning curve of getting used to the PPC over the Palm. And I say this through people with little computer experience picking up my PPC and using it without much trouble, but they find my PalmV much harder to use and understand.

    Get the blow torches out....

    My last post on this.

    Palm_Otaku @ 6/14/2002 3:04:22 AM #
    Palm devices are migrating to ARM-architecture processors for the soon-to-be-released OS5 devices because the new chips are much more energy efficient. Now you can deny it all you want, but the fact is that PPC battery life on StrongARM processors is poor. And that is important.

    There's a myth of an older Jornada with 14 hour battery life. Sure, whatever, quote me your source. My Toshiba e570 has a manufacturer's claimed battery life of 8 hours, but if you read the c|net review they say it's more like "two hours of constant use, consistent with other PPC devices". Heh, tell me: why are "battery extender packs" among the top must-have PPC accessories and DIY projects? Be honest now.

    To do the same everyday tasks on either platform takes very little time - they are both pretty snappy (unless there's too many concurrent apps running on your PPC and it starrrrts boggggggginnnggg dowwwwnnnn...) PalmOS' User Interface is more optimized and efficient so it's actually faster to accomplish these tasks. Comparing the clock speed (33MHz vs. 206) without taking the efficiency and resource requirements of the OS into consideration is fruitless. The old DragonBall processors have served the PalmOS family well :)

    Processor-intensive applications, like video, ARE better on the PPC. I don't think there's any argument there. At least they're better TODAY.

    So let's fast forward to the near term when the new power-efficient ARM processors are available for both platforms. We've already heard that (1) Motorola ARM engineers have done tests showing that PalmOS uses *half* as much power as PPC and (2) Intel and Microsoft are bickering about whose fault it is that the WinCE3 kernel isn't optimized and will have "power and performance" issues on the XScale 400MHz processors. Oh oh...

    So which platform is going to have the upper hand for high-end devices? And don't you think the huge Palm Developer community is going to be pushing these new toys to the limit?

    I've seen a LOT of posts in the PPC forums saying "Whoo I just saw one of those new Clie's with those awesome 320x480 screens. Wouldn't it be great if Sony ran PPC on them??". I don't think that's going to happen, do you?

    More interesting questions might be: which new licensees are we going to see jumping on the PalmOS bandwagon? And how many self-professed PPC Power-Users? <vbg>

    Peace. Out.

    --- Dan

    RE: My last post on this.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/16/2002 5:44:40 PM #
    i just did a battery test on my audiovox maestro ppc. i left it on, with backlight on lowest, and used it to occasionally just a note down, or work on a word document. no games, no music. after 1 hour, the battery was at 90%. that's right, under basic basic use, the batter will last 10 hrs.

    on the other hand, games and mp3's wear down the battery much faster.

    two things to consider when comparing battery life. for the monochrome palms, they don't have to worry about backlight (which is a big consumer of battery). all palms except sony don't have to worry about mp3s using up battery.

    btw - snails (for ppc) is a great game! exactly like worms armageddon, but with snails. truly amazing.

    Good comments [root poster]; additions

    ajg23 @ 6/15/2002 2:22:14 AM #
    I went from PalmOS to Pocket PC for 8-10 months, and am back to PalmOS with the Sony NR-70 and am *delighted* (although as a "big program" user, I wouldn't be quite as happy if I were not using a 66MHz device).

    I'm trying to find the time to create a list of ways that I feel the NR-70 is much more practical for basic functions (many are ways that clearly related to the original poster's comments); watch www.med.unc.edu/~greena/nr70 for updates.

    Among the most pivotal things is having the high-density 320x480 screen on the NR-70. [Note: at one point in the original post it suggested the Pocket PC resolution was 320x320--in fact it has only 320x240]. The NR-70's screen screen (320x320) gives a quite superior 153600 pixels in which to convey the same information as the Pocket PC's 76800 (only half of the Sony's). Even in apps that don't support the virtual graffiti area, the amount and clarity of information alone (e.g., a full week's schedule or a web page) conveyed on the Sony screen makes a a much more rewarding device to use.

    This is before we even take into account the superior usability, absence of slowdowns (perhaps the main reason I switched back!), and instantaneous saving of data (I'm much more confident that my data will be there while using a PalmOS device!).

    Really, with the NR-70's "hi-res+" screen, 66MHz processor and separate DSP (for background playing of MP3s and perhaps doing other functions), an NR-70-like device with simply a traditional design (I don't need the HW keyboard and would prefer the app buttons always available) would be an almost-perfect PDA for me. The change to an ARM processor would be more like icing on the cake rather than something necessary to bring it to the level of usability of the Pocket PCs I owned.

    Palm v PPC : Trends and Opinion

    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/15/2002 3:09:05 AM #
    This forum appears to be getting personal rather than being objective about the facts! I'm sensing a fanatical & cult-like mentality developing here. There's no need for "troll" calling just because one prefers apples to oranges.

    As I see it, the following trends are taking shape in the handheld world:

    1) While processor speed doubles in the PPC world, the size of PPC will continue to decrease as in the case of the Toshiba e10. Nevertheless, being Microsoft, bloated software is here to stay. As more features are being added on the same or new applications, demand for more processing power will continue.

    2) In order for Palm to regain its losing market share, it is beginning to add multimedia features just like the PPC, the Sony Clie being the case. Nevertheless, it will continue to offer watered down features of PPC applications in order to keep them fast, easy on system resources & users, and also to keep pricing down.

    3) If the market share of PPC continue to eat into Palm's, the price of PPC is bound to fall into Palm's territory owing to economies of scale. Already we are seeing a narrowing of price gap between say the iPaq and the Clie. The fact that PPC is able to gain market share at Palm's expense when both products are aiming at different ends of the market speak volumes of PPC's achievements (not to mention ex-Palm users abandoning their lower end models for the higher end PPC).

    Looking at the above trends, the challenge for Palm now is to offer more powerful applications if it had the same hardware specs as the PPC i.e. if Palm can run a spreadsheet at 33mhz & 8MB RAM when it takes a PPC 206mhz & 32MB RAM to do the same thing at the same speed, then show us what Palm can do with 206mhz & 32 MB RAM - number crunch SuperCray's data??? Also, at this specs, can battery life still last for weeks, and size remains light & small with larger screen area? It remains to be seen.

    Secondly, the challenge for Palm to maintain lower pricing than PPC . However, this may be a mountain to climb if Palm offers the latest 400mhz processor as the PPC. Hence, for this reason, Palm's specs are likely to play catchup with PPC for some time.

    The hardware for Palm to do wonders are already here TODAY to give PPC a run for their money, but I doubt Palm will match TODAY'S PPC hardware for 1 main reason - pricing. The main reason Palm is developing OS5 is due to the "simplicity" (read "limitations") of Palm's current OS which is making a growing number of its users dissatisfied and to halt their migration to PPC.

    It's all about adding value to consumers, but since Palm's features will continue to lag behind PPC's, these 2 OSs will remain distinct & incomparable - can't compare apples & oranges. I dream of the day when both Palm & PPC have the same specs for comparison.

    CHRISG 4 PPC

    RE: Palm v PPC : Trends and Opinion
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/16/2002 3:08:46 AM #
    Pocket pc myths:

    (Disclaimer, I own a IIIc and a jornada 558, so I'm not "biased", I've used both platforms and I'm not a "troll").

    1) The palm OS is more stable.

    FICTION!. Just like somebody else said here, it's impossible to crash if your apps are very simple. Surfing online using avantgo, using "pocketchess" or dreadling, WILL give me a "fatal error" everytime, sooner or later. My jornada has had some apps frozen, but I've NEVER have had to reset it. I use pocket internet explorer, the real DOOM, "master's chess" and play videos, and it never crashes. I own both devices (and still have my IIIc), so again, this is not some fiction made bya diehard PPC user.

    I'm not saying the PPC2002 OS is better (it's not), but it's not the unstable monster everyone says, and no, no "blue screen of death". No resetting.

    2) Battery life:

    You kidding? My IIIc lasts A LITTLE more than my jornada.The difference is that the IIIc has a processor that is 10.4 times slower. Add some PPC features to a palm (clié) and the battery life is ludricous. Gee, I imagine how much battery life will a 206MHZ palm get... 2 hours? (Imagine my IIIc with a 200mhz processor!)

    Sure, a m500 or Vx WILL last 5 times more than any pocket pc... hey, monochrome, not backlit unless you press a button and a piezo MUST save some battery...

    3) The ppc2002 OS doesn't really give you any advantages:

    -Being able to copy&paste from my PPC to my PC and vice-versa without any curvesome conversion is a BIG plus.

    -You can share files with a laptop, no problems (maybe converting somre word files...wow). Can the palm run anything except .pdb and .prc files?

    -MULTITASKING!!!

    -The jornada comes with voice recognition...trust me, it saves time.

    These are work advantages... not countign the cool multimedia features.


    ==> I'm not saying that the pocket pc is better. The palm OS is a much simpler, more intuitive, faster OS, less "clicks" to do everything... cheaper. But the PPC is not worse either, it has many many advantages (for productivity, for convenience, for fun, and it's like a small PC...not a super organizer).

    I consider it a draw. They're just different. I only wanted to clear some myths that palm loyalists use without any basis, and that are totally ridiculous.

    RE: My last post on this.
    I.M. Anonymous @ 6/16/2002 6:39:08 PM #
    > after 1 hour, the battery was at 90%. that's right, under basic basic use,
    > the batter will last 10 hrs.

    Not trying to pick a fight but that's not the best way to test. After an hour of use, my Vx is still at 100%. That doesn't mean it lasts forever, just that the battery gauge isn't all that accurate. Keep testing until it goes to 0% and tell us how much use you got.

    Aaarrrrgghh !!!

    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2002 4:29:44 PM #
    I can't believe I read so much of this !!

    Can we stop now ?

    My dad is bigger than all your dads put together !

    :)

    my .02

    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/6/2002 4:38:29 PM #
    i have a clie, i have only used palm OS devices other than a few minutes on a PPC. in other words i am a full supporter of the palm devices (especially sony's) and i despise windows. however, i think that ppc's will take over the market...eventually, but now in the next year or so. the thing is, MS has so many resources to back them up if they truly desire to take over the market. i'm a nurse and there is no doubt that palm rules that market. but what about the regular household user....the mother that wants an organizer to make life simpler. nobody is considering them in this whole discussion. pda's are not just for high tech, IT, medical people, they can be for everybody. if you take the example of the typical middle class soccer mom with a husband and 3 kids. she needs something to organize her life. the family probably already has 2 computers (1 for work and 1 for kids and they will have windows). when she goes to the store, she's going to go with a name she knows..windows (i believe MS will start marketing PPC's more under the windows name in the future because of product recognition). not only that, you have to figure all the computer companies that sell pc's with windows for the general public: dell, compaq, gateway, etc. i think that MS will make the PPC mimic windows as much as possible for a handheld. eventually handhelds will have some form of harddrive so it won't matter how bloated the PPC windows is, it will still fit. so what will eventually happen is these computer companies will start selling computer systems for more but they will include a PPC with the desktop. i can see it now "dude you got a dell for home and a ppc for the road" (i hate dell commercials). look at it this way, ALL of you know that AOL sucks, but yet they continue to be the leader in internet connection. why...it's simple. a new computer owner will most likely sign up with AOL for internet because they have friends on AOL and for other reasons. knowing AOL, they will try to take a share in the handheld internet market too. then the soccer moms can take their PPC and know when the piano recitals are, her grocery list, and chat with the PTA on her handheld. right now Palm rules the handheld market and i totally support them too. the future is a different story. when dell and gateway are including PPC's in a PC purchase, who is going to include a Palm in their PC purchase......probably only sony. as MS integrates the PPC format with their windows format and makes it marketable to the masses, palm will lose their edge. they will be like linux. they will be better but will only be used by people that understand computers and realize MS sucks. flame me if you want but palm will not be able to ward off MS forever.
    RE: my .02
    IceStar @ 7/15/2002 1:25:03 AM #
    I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned the accessories available with Palm.

    two poor choices

    I.M. Anonymous @ 7/7/2002 2:44:15 PM #
    I think neither WindowsCE nor PalmOS are well-written pieces of software: neither of them get out of the hardware anywhere near what the hardware is capable of. It's just that, under the constraint of being wasteful, WindowsCE made the trade-off of giving users a lot of functionality, while PalmOS made the trade-off of giving users some simple, functional applications and a long battery life. PalmOS made the better tradeoff--it is the lesser of two evils.


    Will PalmOS be the "inevitable winner"? I sure hope not in its current form. I'll cheer for PalmOS again if the influx of BeOS genes manages to transform PalmOS into a decent, modern platform, rather than the hack it is. Palm OS 5 won't deliver that; let's keep our fingers crossed for Palm OS 6.


    The real crown ought to go to Psion/Symbian, which appears to have everything that Palm is struggling so hard to deliver.


    Of course, why we need a proprietary OS for handhelds at all is mystifying anyway--operating systems and graphical user interfaces for low-end 68000s ought to be commodities by now.

    A PPC Troll Replies

    I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 7:34:47 PM #
    Man…You Palm guys must be real morons. Using the PPC is just as simple as using the Palm. PPCs are not more difficult to use. The Palm and the PPC are different, they are only as complex as the simple minds that are trying to use them. If you guys cannot use a PPC then it’s hard to imagine that you would have any luck trying to use a regular PC (perhaps most Palm users are unable to handle a PC…). I own a Palm device (Kyocera Smartphone…owned it for about 7 months) and a PPC (iPaq 3970…just got it a month ago). I carry both units with me throughout the day (the phone is for work...need to have it with me at all times). The PPC is the first thing I grab when I get up in the morning (like to read the news and check my email using my Wi-Fi card) and it is the last thing I use at night (like to do a little surfing before going to bed). The Palm part of the phone goes virtually unused for days. I only use it to read and reply to short text messages sent to my phone’s email address. Before the purchase of the PPC, if I was bored waiting in some line or just had a few minutes to kill here and there, I would never use my Kyocera as an entertainment device. With my PPC I am now finding myself playing games or surfing the net way past the few minutes I originally intended to kill. This message is not intended to defend Microsoft or to bash the Palm…I just could not stop myself from writing this because of all the biased, illogical arguments that the Palm fanatics are throwing around. The bottom line is that anything that the Palm can do the PPC can do better (I know that those with a slight case of retardation will claim that PPC is so complex…BS, the only problem here is the lack of mental ability on the part of the users). Then there is the fact that the PPC can do many things that the Palm can only hope to come close to imitating with their new OS…we will see how good it will be… As the name implies so well, the PPC is a Personal Computer that fits in your pocket. The Palm is nothing more than an electronic organizer. Perhaps the Palm zealots are just suffering from a bad case of PPC envy (because they cannot afford one or simply because they are too dim witted to understand how to operate one).

    Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?

    EdH @ 11/14/2004 8:50:39 PM #
    I sure would love to see articles like this one and http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=1957 revisited. Choice quotes from both:

    Palm isn't going to split into two parts, a hardware and an OS company. Palm has wanted to do this for years and it just isn't financially feasible. Licensing the OS doesn't bring in enough cash to support the OS company.

    And even if you have no faith in Palm's management, have faith in the Palm platform itself. It still dominates the handheld market the way Microsoft dominates the desktop one. The Palm OS is a 600 hundred pound gorilla and it will be a long time before anyone can make a monkey out of it.

    Microsoft has missed the boat. Palm was asleep at the wheel, just coasting along for a couple of years. This was Microsoft's only hope to take over the market. But that time is over. PalmSource is aggressively improving the Palm OS. It already has 87% of retail sales in the United States and sells about twice as many handhelds in the Enterprise market as Microsoft does. Expect PPC's share to drop back to single figures. Especially during the burst of sales caused by Palm users upgrading to the new operating system.

    And for the big one from June 2002:

    There are still plenty of "experts" who are predicting that the Pocket PC will take over the lead from the Palm OS in a few years. Keep in mind, though, these are the same people who have been predicting the same thing for years. Every year, they move back the year that Microsoft will take over.

    Few should have read "couple." :-) http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7298

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    Admin @ 11/15/2004 12:18:01 PM #
    haha, were you jumping up an down as you entered that post? What is it that Microsoft has done in the past year to earn itself the right to wear handheld crown all of the sudden? All they did was outshipped the palm os, (not outsell) on total unit combined MSFT did not overtake the market or put palmX to sleep.

    Plus this report is flawed. How can they include the HP6135 and not the Treo 600? Add in the treo alone, and this Gartner report will be seriously fouled.

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    EdH @ 11/15/2004 12:52:59 PM #
    Heh. No, I wasn't jumping up and down. As for the report being flawed, I don't know why they didn't include the Treo. They must hold a dim view of it's capabilities to push it into the Smartphone arena. That said, they didn't include the MS Smartphone OS either and those are selling quite well and in total, would at least equal the Treo and probably surpass it as the Treo isn't doing well in Europe whereas MS Smartphone is.

    All they did was outshipped the palm os, (not outsell) on total unit combined MSFT did not overtake the market or put palmX to sleep.

    So it is your position that MS OEMs are idiots and they just shipped a bunch of product to fill the pipeline and spike the report? Okey dokey.

    Expect PPC's share to drop back to single figures
    The only single digit figure the PPC dropped into was #1.

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    mikecane @ 11/15/2004 1:18:55 PM #
    PPC sales will collapse soon. No one but HP has shelf space. And they will cut their line down to just two units. The high-end hx and the $350 or $399 one they have with QVGA (I can't keep track of all their damned model numbers). Then expect all these other brands to exit just as Toshiba did. (Hell, some haven't even entered the US market, staying in Asia and Europe -- but they will expire too.) Where's that JVC PPC, eh?

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    Admin @ 11/15/2004 2:02:02 PM #
    just having a joke with you :)

    I really wish we actually had a clear representation of the total sales numbers from an unbiased independent organization. Then we wouldn't have to worry about arguing about the math, numbers and so forth for each different analyst report.

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    EdH @ 11/15/2004 3:03:14 PM #
    just having a joke with you :)
    I understand. I go back and read old stuff I've written on 'Thoughts to see how it bears out over time. So far 100% accuracy! Well, the whole bluetooth death thing is taking longer than anticipated. ;-)

    I honestly think the Treo should be pitted against PPC PHone Edition devices, which are data-centric, not voice centric like smartphones. {shrug} I gave up long ago trying to figure out analyst logic. I just report the numbers. And occasionally dance a little jig. :-D

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    EdH @ 10/5/2005 7:37:55 PM #
    EdH said: "I honestly think the Treo should be pitted against PPC PHone Edition devices..."

    Less than a year later, the Treo *IS* a Pocket PC Phone, and I still get a kick out of reading Ed Hardy's analysis a year 3 years after he wrote it. :-)

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    sr4 @ 10/5/2005 7:44:54 PM #

    Ed, now may be the time to revisit "Bluetooth is dying" also. Its really sad, but a number of devices have recently shipped with WIFI and no bluetooth (The recent low end ipaq and the loox N500 series.) To me its madness (WIFI is not everywhere!) but it seems some OEM's agreed with you after all :(

    Surur

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    EdH @ 8/4/2006 1:12:50 PM #
    Bluetooth may no be dead yet, but it is certainly relegated to the excitement level of a wall socket. Mention bluetooth, at least in the US and Canada, and only someone with a BT headset will notice. Bluetooth PANs, printers and most other pipe dreams have been derailed.

    And could this article have new life? ACCESS after all just claimed they were going to take PalmOS via ALP from 4% to 30% share by 2010. http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8860/access-aims-for-30-marketshare-by-2010/

    RE: Is PalmOS the Inevitable Winner?
    EdH @ 2/12/2009 10:23:34 AM #
    Well, in light of recent news at http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/7092/colligan-no-more-palm-os-based-products/ I guess we can lay this thread to rest, right next to PalmOS.

    Palm had a good 6 year run starting when the Palm 1000 launched. Did a LOT for the PDA/Handlheld market.

    Top

    Account

    Register Register | Login Log in
    user:
    pass: