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Comments on: Rumor: Picture of the Tungsten T

An anonymous source has given Geek.com an image of Palm Inc's upcoming high-end mode. The picture confirms that it is based on the Oslo prototype. This features a sliding bottom part which alternately covers and exposes the Graffiti area, allowing the handheld to be very small when closed or let user enter text when open.

The image also confirms that this model will be named the Tungsten T. All of Palm's high-end products will be part of the Tungsten line. Its new smartphone will be called the Tungsten W.

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Excellent!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:00:54 PM #
That's the only way I can describe my initial impressions.

Tungsten??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:03:01 PM #
This is just TOOOO COOL!
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:10:01 PM #
Eh. I dunno. I'll wait until it actually comes out before I decide how cool it is.
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:13:55 PM #
This is good news for palm. I am still skeptical about the viability of the other models but this does the job
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:45:52 PM #
Palm, I'm comin' home!
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:07:48 PM #
It looks like it'll be only slightly thicker than an M515 but not a brick like people were saying. Kudos to palm for packing that much stuff into that small a space.
From a Clie T615 owner
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:31:35 PM #
I think it looks great. Great job Palm, maybe one day I'll come back.
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:48:05 PM #
what small stuff
16 mb ram
underpowered 175mhz
320*320
with a memory tape recorder
and bluetooth what a joke.
for $500 dollars
RE: Excellent!
Strider_mt2k @ 9/20/2002 11:46:59 PM #
This seems pretty cool!
I just hope it's stands up to daily use.


strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

RE: Excellent!
Bartman007 @ 9/21/2002 3:26:22 AM #
Why is it that trolls never stop whining. I mean jeez, get a life....

GREAT!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:37:47 AM #
It's fantastic! Almost a dream PDA! (a jog-dial would be nice though).
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:15:44 PM #
So anyone who actually thinks about things is a troll and a whiner. You msut either work for Palm, have alot of Palm stock or be a Palm ditto head.
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:51:23 PM #
No.

People here insult products without trying them.

It is not fair to Palm to insult the product when you haven't tried it. For some people this IS the perfect product, others desire something different. I know many people who don't need any MHZ, Color screens, etc

Most need a Palm V with it's organization abilities, and some of the basic apps. This is why Palm is loosing market share. I know 20 people who have a Palm V and it works perfectly and probably won't change handhelds for a while.

Please don't insult a handheld by saying: Another stupid handheld by Palm. Justify by saying why you would ever need more than 175 mhz or more than a 320x320 screen. Remember this is a PDA not a computer. If you need something to do computer like functions get a laptop.

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:41:01 PM #
I agree, stop complaining, whining and berating a product that isn't even out yet. If you've actually tried and tested it then you can give your comments/reviews. Till then let's see what Palm will come out with for their next generation PDAs.
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:08:37 AM #
But is $500 HUNDRED DOLLARS
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 10:21:49 AM #
So, any negative comments on an item before release is a Troll item and anything positive said on a rumor is all good. Got it, will put that up with my quotes to look at everyday.

Onto real matters... is anyone concerned about that lower part sliding down and wearing out as folks rest their hand on it to write in the grafitti area? Unlike a keyboard being in the uncovered area that would require now hand resting as you thumb type. By the way... I don't like the keyboards, just a thought on why one slide works and another doesn't last.

Hmmm... that may come across negative, then I would be here 'trolling'. How about...

I love the way the lower area slides down to rest my hand on it when writing. Palm has thought of everything. As the lower part loosens and gives me plenty or warning that it is about to break, I will alter my writing style and thus be a better person. Cool!!

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 10:54:12 AM #
You haven't used it yet. How would you know it breaks? You shouldn't make assumptions, good or bad until it is released. We don't even know that it is the unit that Palm is releasing.

A good response is: I'm glad that Palm will come out with a Palm OS 5 handheld finally.

Critisicims are fine but sometimes people write: Palm is dead, Sony Rules, This is What will kill Sony... Don't do that!

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:29:51 AM #
More Blah, Blah, Blah...

Some people here are afraid to make observations and express opinions before the product is released ("Don't knock it till you try it"[in voice of snotty second grader}) Well, thats fine for some "box thinkers...lets call them Zire users" If we can't go to Best Buy and play with it the least you can let us do is talk about it! So, yes I think the sliding grafitti cover is a bad move and will probably break or wear out with alot of use. This first model is a nogo for my dollar but I am anxious for the next round!

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:47:28 AM #
"the sliding grafitti cover is a bad move and will probably break or wear out with alot of use"

With that logic, you better not step into your car. It has lots of moving parts-some of which are plastic. Laptops have moving parts. Cell phones have plastic moving parts. Treos have moving parts. Your place of dwelling has many moving parts. Its time I and many others make the jump to a significantly better device. If you listen to these "wait and see people", you will be waiting forever. I work in marketing and that is one of the arguments you use in order to delay the use of a new product. "Don't you be the first to try out this thing, let someone else do it; however, when I come out with MY product, I want you to jump right on it".

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:13:20 AM #
"So, any negative comments on an item before release is a Troll item and anything positive said on a rumor is all good. Got it, will put that up with my quotes to look at everyday."

That is a good philosophy when gathering information about a device in a competitive market. Positive comments are probably true, but doubt the negative chatter - chances are good you are not getting the straight story. You can quickly check it out yourself.
If I were competing with a new device, you can bet your home that I would be posting "seeds of doubt" on this web site.

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:32:54 PM #
I like that they've kept the size to just a tad larger than my 515, but I have to at least partially agree with those who don't trust the sliding panel. I'm not saying it's stupid. I *am* saying it bears watching. In my years with factory QC departments, it was plain that the moving parts fail long before the circuitry does. 99% of our returns were pushbuttons, sliding doors, etc. I think the industry has done wonders with buttons since then but not quite as well with things like that sliding panel. It's not a big deal with me since I'm not planning to upgrade for at least one more generation - I love this 515 and won't consider giving it up till the 32meg units come out - but I look forward to hearing how this thing does out there in the real world. If it's even moderately successful, the next model will be even better and I'll be a happy man. So best of luck! But keep an eye on that sliding thingy.

Dan

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:14:37 PM #
I agree. It looks excellent and I can't wait to try it.
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:53:44 PM #
Sonys have these stuff for months now. Nothing new here..........
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:02:18 PM #
I just visited the local best buy and they've never heard of this thing. Is this a real product?
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:26:52 PM #
I've spoken with someone who said they've used a tungsten t for about 20 minutes and she was very impressed with it. I think this will sell very well for Palm and hopefully bring them back from the slump that they've been in.
Woman who has used Tungsten T
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:05:46 AM #
Please, do tell us where this acuaintance of yours was able to use the Tungsten T. I am very curious...is she a secret agent...or perhaps the next Palm Poster Model. Let us know. Thanks!
RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:09:50 AM #
the sliding grafitti cover is a bad move and will probably break or wear out with alot of use"

With that logic, you better not step into your car. It has lots of moving parts-some of which are plastic. Laptops have moving parts. Cell phones have plastic moving parts. Treos have moving parts. Your place of dwelling has many moving parts.

GUESS WHAT PAL...MY CAR DOES BREAK!...HOME DEPOT GETS MY EXTRA CASH FIXING BROKEN THINGS AROUND THE HOUSE...ETC. SO I DON'T REALLY WANT A $500 PALM THAT HAS MOVING PARTS -I-S- GOING TO BREAK SOONER RATHER THAN LATER! ENOUGH WITH THE SLIDY FLIPPY CRAP ALREADY! _T_H_I_N_AND SOLID!

RE: Excellent!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:17:45 AM #
"GUESS WHAT PAL...MY CAR DOES BREAK!...HOME DEPOT GETS MY EXTRA CASH FIXING BROKEN THINGS AROUND THE HOUSE...ETC. SO I DON'T REALLY WANT A $500 PALM THAT HAS MOVING PARTS -I-S- GOING TO BREAK SOONER RATHER THAN LATER! ENOUGH WITH THE SLIDY FLIPPY CRAP ALREADY! _T_H_I_N_AND SOLID!"

Guess what PAL...... Whatever device you buy will have moving parts....Buttons, Maybe hinges,etc. If you don't like that, good luck trying to find a pda that DOESN'T have moving parts. It (Tungsten)still is thin and solid. By the way.........our STUFF(cars,etc)break too!!! Maybe you need to buy a Pocket PC PDA? Or do you have one already??

Larger Photo on Geek.com

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:03:53 PM #
The photo on geek.com is larger than the one here:

www.geek.com/pdageek/pics/tungstenpic.htm

Yecch

mikecane @ 9/20/2002 2:04:34 PM #
2 OS 4.x models and one OS5 model that will probably use that horrible too thin and too short Sony stylus. This is not good.

RE: Yecch
Beastmaster @ 9/20/2002 2:08:18 PM #
I've never used the stock stylus on any PDA....thank god for Rotring's Multi-Pen with stylus !

RE: Yecch
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:08:45 PM #
How do you figure? I could possibly envision it being smaller but why thinner?
RE: Yecch
cdvd @ 9/20/2002 2:13:46 PM #
Mike, I doubt this model from Palm will use a Sony stylus.
RE: Yecch
mikecane @ 9/20/2002 2:17:01 PM #
Well, we'll see. The stylus will have to be shorter -- and, since Sony's people designed this, why not just "standardize" the styluses between them?

The worst stylus belongs to the Sharp Linuxed Zaurus. It is a fat stub. Maybe this one will be like that too.

RE: Yecch
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:20:38 PM #
I don't see why the stylus needs to be short. Sony fits a full length one in the SJ-series and it is the same length.
RE: Yecch
mikecane @ 9/20/2002 2:21:46 PM #
You call those full-length?! God, don't ever get a job measuring certain body parts!

RE: Yecch
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:32:06 PM #
How can you comment on the stylus when no one has seen or held or used one yet. I'll wait for ED's review and see what he has to say about the stylus among other things.

Battery life matters more to me. I'm hoping palm continues its tradition of having long battery lives on all its models.

RE: Yecch
jjsoh @ 9/20/2002 2:46:03 PM #
: The stylus will have to be shorter

Probably, but you never know. This model is only 0.4" smaller than (for example) the m515. How much of the stylus could they possibly shorten it? But, since this is thicker than the m515, could it be that the stylus is also thicker as well?

: -- and, since Sony's people designed this, why not just
: "standardize" the styluses between them?

Well, I don't know if it was specifically stated that they were the _only_ ones to work on the design. I think it was mentioned that they helped work on it, but not design it completely themselves.

You're right, though, we'll have to just wait and see. Can't wait to see other company's first OS5 offerings.

Exciting. :)

Jim

RE: Yecch
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:53:27 PM #
It's not the size of the stylus, it's how you use it!
RE: Yecch
Token User @ 9/20/2002 4:57:12 PM #
Well, I don't know if it was specifically stated that they were the _only_ ones to work on the design. I think it was mentioned that they helped work on it, but not design it completely themselves.

I am betting that the expertise the ex-Sony engineers supplied went into the electronics, rather than the industrial design.

IDEO (www.ideo.com) are a great industrial design shop that worked on the Palm V series, and the Treo for Handspring (among others visit the site - esp if you are a student of HCI/CHI or Industrial Design). Makes you wonder if they had a hand in this one as well.

RE: Yecch
jjsoh @ 9/20/2002 5:33:36 PM #
Token User, that's an interesting point. Didn't see it that way.

I guess it was the line "In an interesting side note, Bradley said designers from Sony worked on this model." (taken From yesterday's PIC article www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=4188) which may have confused me within the context that it was used. The line followed immediately after explaining the design of the case, not the internal bits.

Oh well. Regardless, I can't wait for October if only to see this thing in action and to test it with my own hands.

Jim

RE: Yecch
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:02:49 PM #
Sony did NOT work on this model. It's either misquoted or he doesn't know what he's talking about. The stylus is slightly "fatter" and telescopes to be longer that a Palm V.
RE: Yecch
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:50:58 PM #
This design was done by interal id women,
and shortley after she came up with the design
the laid her off.
RE: Yecch
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 1:50:33 AM #
A telescoping stylus would be indeed welcome.

As for a prior msg stating that IDEO worked on the Visors -- I'd be shocked if that was true. I read the book from IDEO's Chief -- no mention of the Visor, but the Palm V is detailed.

RE: Yecch
Ed @ 9/21/2002 8:41:20 AM #
I'm sorry if the way I phrased that previous article led to the mistaken belief Sony had collaborated in the design process for this model. Just so we're clear, Sony had no role in designing the Tungsten T. Some former Sony employees did work on it but they were just that, former Sony employees. Palm hired them away.

---
News Editor
RE: Yecch
Foo Fighter @ 9/21/2002 10:32:46 AM #
> "As for a prior msg stating that IDEO worked on the Visors -- I'd be shocked if that was
> true. I read the book from IDEO's Chief -- no mention of the Visor, but the Palm V is detailed."

According to IDEO's web site, the firm designed all of Handspring's core products:
www.ideo.com/portfolio/list.asp?p=&c=Handspring&k=&s=&so=4

RE: Yecch
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 5:08:04 PM #
DOH!

First, to Ed: Sorry for the Sony misunderstanding!

Second, to the prior poster, thanks for the tip about the website. I never thought to check there. Geez, they really did HS's stuff? Maybe HS should have used frogdesign -- or maybe IDEO they passed off the work to some new hires who were designers from the former East Germany... they all lack the Palm V stylishness.

RE: Yecch
andrewholler @ 1/17/2003 12:01:43 PM #
The stylus is Yecch! Do we need a good stylus? I use the one that comes with the TT

More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:03:32 PM #
Nothing against Graffiti per se - I would like it...as an option. I would want to use some alternative means of text entry on the screen and leave the device shut. I wouldn't want to have to grab and slide open (2 steps) every time to use Graffiti.

Then we have the troublesome issue of the Home button being covered while the device is in its smaller form...


RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
Beastmaster @ 9/20/2002 2:09:31 PM #
Use Jot....graffiti problems solved !

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:17:47 PM #
Surely an ARM based system is capable of true handwriting recognition. I wonder if some Palm developer is quietly working on a Calligrapher-type input system for OS 5?
RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:18:34 PM #
I have no problem with hard graffitti area. If you want to read an ebook then get an ebook reader. If you want to use it for spreadsheets in landscape mode then how will you enter info into that spreadsheet?

For most other pda uses the hard graffitti area is always being used, especially on the palm operating system which was desgined around the graffitti input area.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
rldunn @ 9/20/2002 2:28:51 PM #
There are already several types of apps that support virtual graffiti on the NR. In addition to Ebooks and spreadsheets, there are:

Image viewers
Web clip viewers
Memo pads
Handwritten note pads
File managers

Your point about apps requiring entry is a good one though. It's hard to write a memo or enter into a spreadsheet without graffiti unless you have a separate keyboard like the NR. But for viewers of all kinds, the extra screen real estate is great, so hopefully virtual graffiti will become a new standard, giving everyone the option of which setting they like better.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:33:21 PM #
"For most other pda uses the hard graffitti area is always being used, especially on the palm operating system which was desgined around the graffitti input area."

OK, in 1995 it was fine and dandy. Its now 2002, almost 2003. Time to move on. Just because Graffiti works for some people doesn't make it easy. If you could just write words on the screen in your own handwriting and have them converted to text, wouldn't you agree that would be easier?

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:37:42 PM #
I think it would be cool to have a hack that will automatically show the virt. graffiti area when you tap on an input field, then automatically go away after a short amount of time after you stop writing or after you tap on a non-input area of the screen.
RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:49:06 PM #
I personally hate the virtual graf area of [another kind of PDA]. It's always popping up when I don't need it and getting in the way. I'd just as soon go back to the small but super-hi-res (oh, I mean DD) screen that lets me zoom out on spreadsheets.

As for the comment about "those who want to read ebooks, buy an ebook reader" that's just dumb. There wouldn't even be an ebook market if it weren't for Palm, and the Palm -- even the original screen, works just fine for ebooks. I'd even say that there's little advantage for [other PDAs] or Sony's larger screens when it comes to ebooks. So, when I buy this Palm, I WILL be buying an ebook reader.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
TypeMRT @ 9/20/2002 5:31:30 PM #
Easy there. Two steps (grab & slide) vs one (grab) step seems a bit of a stretch. Did you have the same argument against flip covers too?

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:16:55 PM #
There are several apps out there which allow you to write on the screen. One of the latest is Newpen. Are they OS5 compliant? I don't know. But I'm sure that intrepid developers will respond to meet this demand.

Personally, I think that the slide out screen is silly. It adds to the thickness of the unit and makes it more cumbersome to use. I hate to think what will happen when dust and lint get in between the sliding parts. The NR70 series shows that moving parts on handhelds are not robust enough to deal with day to day use - Palm should learn from the mistakes of others; rather than trying to copy them.

If Palm thinks it can win market share by trying to outdo the latest gimmick offered by other manufacturers, then maybe they have really lost their way after all.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:30:15 PM #
What is wrong with "Virtual Graffitti"? I mean, Handera and Sony have shone it to be very usable and when it echos your input, it's fantastic! I just don't understand Palm not implementing it.

Oh well, better luck next time...

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:08:28 PM #
>>Personally, I think that the slide out screen is silly. It adds to the thickness of the unit and makes it more cumbersome to use.

The m515 is .5 inches thick - the Tungsten T is .6 inches thick. Not really much of a difference. Besides - the m515 is 4.5 x 3.1 inches while this is 4 x 3 inches (4.8 inches with graffiti open).

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
rldunn @ 9/22/2002 12:09:08 AM #
> The NR70 series shows that moving parts on handhelds are not robust enough to deal with
> day to day use

How exactly have they shown this? Myself and most NR users that I talk to think that the NR is holding up just fine, no problems at all with moving parts.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 10:29:32 AM #
On the NR70... mine is working fine. My wife's unit has major hinge grinding noises. Two fellow workers have the screen's viewing area stop rotating when the screen is flipped. We have had to turn back in two others that wont wake up when the screen is on the outward direction, only when opened like a clam.

I love the NR70!! But to say that Sony hasn't had it's share of problems. Just look at the fact that they are talking about not using that design any more. Too expensive to build? Maybe, Sony doesn't normally shy away from expense though. Magnesium versus plastic.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 8:31:59 PM #
The Graffiti portion of the Tungsten seems to be textured and solid, like the trackpad of a laptop. This could help the longevity of the T.
RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:04:55 AM #
My NR-70 is just peachy -- not a single hinge related problem. Solid device. Won't buy another unit for a while until Sony makes another clamshell, or does something similarly creative with case design. Phasing out the clamshell would be VERY stupid.

Palm simply cannot let go of the old tech -- hard grafitti which NO ONE uses anymore if they can avoid it and a teeny tiny square screen. Only the low-end garbage will use this on Sony devices and Handera woke up a long, long, time ago about the waste of space graffiti silkscreen. When Palm figures out 320 x 480, I'll seriously consider looking at one of their devices.

RE: More hardwired Graffiti. Will it ever die?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:32:30 PM #
I agree with all the virtual graffitti fans on here. Once you played around with a Sony NR70, you'll know what you've been missing.
Too bad there's no virtual grafiti.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:05:08 PM #
Oh well, maybe next version. I just bought an NR70V anyway, so it will be a while before I'm in the market for a new Palm/compatible.

I hope Sony makes an OS 5 version of the NR70. Aside from the lack of a d pad (yes, I want it for games!) it's perfect for me.

Covers and styli?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:09:40 PM #
So with this thing sliding up and down, how do you attach a book style cover (like the one that came with the V series)? And do you have to have a short stylus?
RE: Covers and styli?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:14:49 PM #
I'd guess the flip cover will be big enough to cover the front when the bottom part is closed. You won't be carrying it around with it expanded.

I don't see why the stylus needs to be short. Sony fits a full length one in the SJ-series and it is the same length.

RE: Covers and styli?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:30:33 PM #
The stylus will retract too...
RE: Covers and styli?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:33:57 PM #
LOL

Bummer :(

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:15:56 PM #
I was hoping for built in 802.11b or a CF slot so I can add it. Bluetooth sucks because the range is too small.
RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:17:49 PM #
Bluetooth range can be up to 100 feet. Is that too small?
RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:21:56 PM #
You can get a PicoBlue Internet access point:
http://www.pico.net/products.html
It has a range of 300 feet.

PPC's with built in wi-fi have terrible battery lives. Plus they cost $700.

Wait and see what HandEra does with OS 5. I expect them to have a CF slot.

RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:24:12 PM #
Buy a Toshiba e740 and stay near the power jack since you'll be recharging it every 3-4 hours (maybe even less).
Bluetooth vs 802.11 is comparing apples vs. pears
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:27:33 PM #
Bluetooth has 3 different ranges, depending on the product. With your phone in your pocket or suitcase or at your belt the range isn't important to talk about.

It's saying that 802.11 doesn't support voice right aways (needs voice-over-IP to support voice communication), that it's not low power, 2 expensive, chipset is to big etc.

By the way....the e740 runs less then 2 hours with integrated 802.11 (see Dale Coffing's review at PPCPassion) ;o)

RE: Bummer :(
mikecane @ 9/20/2002 2:27:39 PM #
TI has apparently come up with a new 802.11b chipset that is small and low-power. Maybe 2003's Palms will have them. (Probably 2003 PPCs too.)

RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:34:43 PM #
Palm will offer a pda with 802.11 in the future (see there demo's at analyst conferences, check palms website). 802.11 is great for networking but it's not low power and it never will be compared to Bluetooth. Don't see 1 particulair technology has THE complete solution for everything. There isn't. A Bluetooth-802.11 dual mode solution would be great.
Microsoft has demonstrated the Blue802 technology already. Nice things to come imho. Patience required.

RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:59:29 PM #
If you look at Bluetooth like a network card then, yeah use 802.11b, but if you want to use it to replace cables or advoid the limitation of line-of-sight IR, then Bluetooth is great! Imagine walking into your office or home and starting a hotsync by placing your device anywhere! If you are near a LAN, why use your palm wth 802.11b, use a real computer, with a real browser and big 17" monitor for that. Bluetooth should be used to update your device, print, send data to another palm or even your phone, but not browse webpages designed for IE on a 17" monitor or access network shares.

RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:40:44 PM #
"Bluetooth should be used to update your device, print, send data to another palm or even your phone, but not browse webpages designed for IE on a 17" monitor or access network shares."

Actually I'm not even sure about the first two, I find I prefer 802.11b on my HandEra for updating (hotsyncing when I'm in another room or on another floor), and printing (to a shared network printer that's in another room).

RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:31:23 PM #
Bluetooth class 1 devices have a range up to 100ft. How much do you need?
RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 4:21:58 PM #
Given the acceptance of 802.11b as a defacto standard with greater speed and distance, and the rapid growth of 802.11b internet/e-mail access points in airports, hotels and so forth, I would expect Palm to be hot on the trail of getting a model out when low-power chips are available.

For me, that would make the Palm the ultimate device. I'll wait.


RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 6:16:05 PM #
"Given the acceptance of 802.11b as a defacto standard with greater speed and distance, and the rapid growth of 802.11b internet/e-mail access points in airports, hotels and so forth, I would expect Palm to be hot on the trail of getting a model out when low-power chips are available.

For me, that would make the Palm the ultimate device. I'll wait."

--------

Sounds great. You can file this under "wouldn't it be great if....".

1. 802.11b is already (or will be) the facto standard in NETWORKING.
2. If you make 802.11b faster (TI has done such thing with there ACX100 802.11 technology and makes 802.11b run 22Mbps) then the battery will drain even more then it is now.
3. Greater distance is possible i think. But it has to come from somewhere if you know what i mean.
4. Both 802.11a (is here today and in reality 22mbps-54mbps) and 802.11g (coming, backward compatable with 802.11b, not yet aproved by the FCC) drain even more battery then 802.11b
5. There will never be AN ultimate device imho.

The 802.11 Alphabet Soup
http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/buyersguide/article.php/1440011 (Geier is the man to beat here....)

Dual mode chipsets (e.g Bluetooth-802.11a/b/g) are the way to go imho. There will be....patience.


RE: Bummer :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:14:45 PM #
Keeping things in perspective, the "greater distance has to come from somewhere" constraint affects bluetooth as well. It's not some magical protocol outside the laws of physics. BT shills are apt to pipe up, "You can use it up to 100 feet, how far do you need?" And yet, you look at the specs on those BT chips and they consume 80-90mA. That's more than my entire PDA with backlight on and 802.11b with power management set (yet still with greater RF range), at 55-65mA.

So yes, range has to come from somewhere, It'd just be nice if both camps remembered that.

RE: Bummer :(
hotpaw4 @ 9/22/2002 1:39:22 PM #
802.11 requires too much power for pocket size devices (and smaller) with decent battery life. The way to use 802.11 networks from a handheld is via small wi-fi to bluetooth bridges. Either line powered, or pocket size and run on a seperate battery, so when that battery dies (too soon), it doesn't take down your handheld.

802.11 NOT the one-size-fits-all wireless technology
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:05:25 AM #
802.11 NOT the one-size-fits-all wireless technology

802.11/wifi's real weakness is bandwidth - not its maximum capacity of 11Mbits/sec (really only 6Mbits/sec after protocol overhead is subtracted, which is still relatively high), but the limited amount of radio spectrum in which it operates. the system uses the 2.4GHz band, which in the United States has room for three separate non-overlapping 802.11b channels. some other countries have room for four, but the Wi-Fi standard is based on the FCC's restrictions, so they're also limited to three. So 802.11 potential stumbling block could be the limited number of channels available in the 2.4 GHz band used by WLANs. With only three channels available, WLANs in close proximity must share bandwidth, shrinking the available pipe for each user.

A Report on Wireless Networking by Consulting firm IpEverywhere, shows gaping security holes in hundreds of wireless networks throughout the downtown core, including many in the financial district and some government and university areas. About 75 per cent of the more than 1,000 downtown wireless networks it has detected so far have no evidence of security and leave organizations wide open to information theft, data destruction, networking spamming and other cyber attacks.

more
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=41543

Ow! #@%*!!

zigzago @ 9/20/2002 2:26:40 PM #
Excuse me, I was just closing my Tungsten
RE: Ow! #@%*!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:34:45 PM #
I agree!

To expand on this a little more, with the Sony Nr70V having a 320x480 screen with virtual grafitti, dont you think that PALM would have figured this one out??

I guess, once again, we will have to wait for sony to kick the crap out of Palm again.

To Palm:

PocketPCs have everything that you are throwing together with the Tungston and their screen is larger. Granted the resolution is not a crisp on a PPC but it is still lerger. I have a 320x320 N760C and compared to the Nr70Vs larger screen, its SMALL.

Cmon everyone (chanting to Palm):

INN-O-VATE...
INN-O-VATE...
INN-O-VATE...

RE: Ow! #@%*!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:38:35 PM #
Why do I need to protect my graffiti area? That design is lame, didn't PPC try this with the Zaurus or something?

It will really be nice when you are working away on the grafiti area and the cover keeps sliding shut on you, similar to the virutal grafiti opening and closing for no reason.

PPC here I come :)

RE: Ow! #@%*!!
bradleyboy @ 9/20/2002 3:48:18 PM #
ummm...i'm not one of the designers of this thing, but i'm guessing the purpose of the sliding feature is not to "protect the graffiti area", but rather to make the unit more compact.

Yeesh
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:13:25 PM #
The virtual graffiti area gets stratched more than the regular screen area because of text imput, and the display becomes awful looking. Also, a virtual graffiti area takes up more battery power! And if I am using an external keyboard, why would I need the graffiti area? Oh, and it makes the PDA shorter, so it's nicer to carry around.
RE: Ow! #@%*!!
rldunn @ 9/20/2002 6:45:06 PM #
The VG area on my NR isn't any more scratched than any other part of the screen, but I do most heavy input using the keyboard. Hopefully they could figure out how to make a scratch-resistant screen to ensure that this wouldn't be the case.

RE: Ow! #@%*!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:51:31 PM #
>> Why do I need to protect my graffiti area? That design is lame, didn't PPC try this with the Zaurus or something?

FYI... There is a mini thumb-keyboard under the retracting cover. You get it, plus the normal pop-up handwriting recognition and pop-up (software) keyboard. Quite a nice design.

Although I'm still a Palm platform fan (I have a HandEra 330 I use for day-to-day & work), I just got the Zaurus SL-5500 to "play" with. Mmmmmm, runs Linux!

Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:14:19 PM #
Thats sliding graffiti area sucks. I don't want to ave to slide that thing up and down every time I want to write. The value of the Palm is doing things quickly with very few steps. This sliding thingie just added steps.
RE: Ow! #@%*!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:25:27 PM #
Also on the Zaurus there is a Palm emulator, which runs pretty much every palm program out there (much like PACE, but a lot slower I imagine.)
The Value of Sliding Action would have been so much higher
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:40:59 PM #
if it would reduce the size of the device by 2 inches or more. It appears the sliding action isn't worth the potential trouble(s).
RE: Ow! #@%*!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/29/2002 2:25:44 PM #
good point about speed of entry, I would not want to do the additional step of pulling out the retractable cover prior to entering data all the time. I do appreciate that speed is important.

more buttons...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:44:40 PM #
what does palm have against a jog dial? the sony jog dial and back button are great, definitely the most used button on my pda. I'd think with the home key covered with the grafitti area a "back" button would be an obvious must for this device. Is there some copy right issue or something?
RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:55:59 PM #
You got your D-Pad, and now you want a jog-dial too? With a back-button?

You're getting greedy. :)

JOG DIAL FOR THE TUNGSTEN T
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:03:36 PM #
Where's the jog dial? This is a must for any new Palm model I buy.
Why the D-Pad is Better
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:08:18 PM #
The d-pad is better than a jog dial.

The d-pad can be used to move up and down and left and right. The jog dial is just up and down. Really, the jog dial is just a reshaped up/down rocker switch, like palms have always had, while the d-pad is whole navigation tool.

Games will no longer have to fake a d-pad with the existing buttons. Action games will be much more playable.

The d-pad can be used by both left and right handed people. The jog dial is just for right righties.

RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:45:00 PM #
"The d-pad is better than a jog dial."

Maybe yes, maybe no. Personally I like both about as well.

"The d-pad can be used to move up and down and left and right. The jog dial is just up and down."

Er, not quite. You have left and right actions to a degree as well. The jog dial pushes in (depending on the app on my HandEra this selects an item, or moves laterally across launcher tabs, or ever laterally across menus).

The back/esc button can serve to go the back the other way.

Having said that, for lateral stuff I agree a D-pad is more intuitive.

Where I like the jog dial though is that you have a bit more flexibility. In many apps a jog dial will move a highlight up/down a list view with one at a time selections. This leaves the page-up/page-down buttons for faster page at a time scrolling. And you can quickly alternate between the two.

With a D-pad, it's one or the other. An item at a time or a page at a time, but not both.

"Really, the jog dial is just a reshaped up/down rocker switch, like palms have always had."

Except for what I said above. On my HE330, often (depending on the app) the jog dial sends a prev/next field code (which you can also do awkwardly with graffiti). The scroll buttons generally always do page-up/page-down. I'm guessing that won't nearly so often be the case on a D-PAD device. You may have to use find much more often. I know I certainly wouldn't want to navigate to memo number 300 or 400, one item at a time. Page-up/down would be sorely missed.

"The d-pad can be used by both left and right handed people. The jog dial is just for right righties."

Yes and no. I find the jog dial works best with the thumb. So in fact I nearly always use it when the PDA is in my left hand. That said, it can be done nearly as easily in my righ hand with an index finger. It just depends it you want to mix some graffiti in there which hand you're going to put the PDA in. The fact that it's on the side means you're going to have a digit over it no matter what hand is your dominant.

-- Craig Bowers

RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:38:11 PM #
sony just wants insane royalties for it's jogdial, hence, no one uses it.
RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:46:21 PM #
I think he was being more general, small "J" jog dial, in the kleenex sense.

Plenty of PDA's Palm and otherwise use a jog like dial. Though likely Sony's is the only one to go all the way around, if you like that sort of thing.

RE: Jog dial
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:19:33 PM #
After owning 2 Clies, I would have to say the jog dial is a must for me. Reading ebooks and other documents is soooooo much easier with a jog dial.
RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:41:46 PM #
A response to one of the above posts.

GET IT: The jog dial uses your THUMB. Not your fingers. Allowing for one handed operation and so forth. The d-pad is harder to use one handed.

That's not to say it's not well suited for lefties, but what is in this world?

RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 8:56:32 PM #
I am a Sony Clie user who had a chance to try the D-Pad on the Tungsten. I find it easier to use - I could do one-handed navigation to select a phone number (and dial on my bluetooth phone!). I did it with both the right and left hand - very easy. I find that I have a problem with the jog dial twisting a little bit when I push it in to select. I'm sure there will be others who have the opposite experience, but I prefer this.
RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:11:33 AM #
and how did you get that chance, mr clie
RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:25:59 AM #
Frankly, the d-pad is only good for games or specialized apps. My iPAQ's d-pad goes unused except for games and mapped fucntions for the winamp (ish) mp3 player (track que & volume). For serious reading I've reverted to converting the record button to a 'page down' button since it does not have a jog dial. My NR-70's jog dial does everything I need and is conventiently located so I can use it with my right (index finger) and left (thumb) hands with equal ease. Glad Sony and Handera thought to put them in their devices, too bad Palm didn't think this was necessary for their top of the line unit.
RE: more buttons...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:18:37 AM #
Is it just me or has anybody else noticed that using the 760 style jog dial being incredibly uncomfortable? i commute every morning and have a grand read of news via avantgo. the corner of the sony sits in the palm of my hand while using the jog dial and gets rather red and sore after some use.

sony, for me, will have quite a job getting another cent out of me. their devices are hocked out on the market with very little ergonomic consideration - whatever sells, they work on, improve mildly and then relaunch.

so, in theory, the jog dial is great... but i'm not going to form part of a mass-market usability experiment. using the jog dial on the sony devices is quite uncomfortable. its as if someone in the marketing department designed the handhelds and used an axe for their industrial design.

so go easy on palm, guys. it took sony about 7 models to come up with anything nearly as revolutionary as the PalmV. when they launch something really new for power users, they get it damn right.

Connector?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:01:19 PM #
Does it use the same connecter as the exsiting m series? (m100 and m500)

RE: Connector?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:04:46 PM #
The article says "It uses Palm's Universal Connector" this is the port on the m125, m130, m500, m505, m515, and i705. (Did I miss any?)
RE: Connector?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:17:01 AM #
The M100 and the M105.

RE: Connector?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 6:58:33 AM #
No, the m100 and m105 don't use the universal connector.

~Thomas

RE: Connector?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 9:31:15 PM #
he missed the disconyinued V/Vx

RE: Connector?
Jeff-Russell @ 9/21/2002 10:58:50 PM #
the V and Vx don't use the universal connector either. Try putting a Palm V on the m505 cradle....

Regards,

Jeff

Springloaded slider

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:01:16 PM #
I'll buy one if there a springload mechanism that slides the graffiti cover down when you hit a side button, just like those phones in The Matrix!
RE: Springloaded slider
kempokaraterulz @ 9/20/2002 3:55:45 PM #
Perfect! more moving parts to break. Only useful innovation i see here is the dpad.

_______________________________________

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
RE: Springloaded slider
Token User @ 9/20/2002 5:13:19 PM #
I'll buy one if there a springload mechanism that slides the graffiti cover down when you hit a side button, just like those phones in The Matrix!

I was thinking the same thing. Cool idea, BUT, ever wonder why the Nokia 8xxx weren't sold like that in the USA? Because Nokia got sued by some fool that "put their eye out when the latch released". Same sort of idiot that sue because they got hot coffee without a warning label that contents might be hot.

Last thing Palm needs is another meaningless lawsuit, but at least "criminal neglect" would be a change over "patent infringement".

RE: Springloaded slider
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:43:44 PM #
I have a Nokia 7110 that uses such a system. Trust me. You don't want it.

Reliability trap.

Sony Is Doomed

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:59:44 PM #
While some may say Palm is copying Sony, it is results that matter. Now that Palm has added 320x320 screens, MP3 players, and more to their handhelds, why should anyone buy Sonys? Customers aren't impressed by who had a feature first, only who has it now. Sony better be putting out a OSv5 model with a 320x480 screen because that is the only advantage left it has over Palm. Sony has cut into Palm's market share over the past year, expect that to stop and even reverse.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:14:44 PM #
Yes, I can't wait for the sony lovers (ie Palm haters) to come out and bash this new palm. The problem here is there's not much to bash. It's a unique and original design, It has everything that all the critics have been asking for and then some.

While I know that sony will not be "doomed" by this new product, I hope that sony and palm and handsprng all have continued success and growth.

As for "doomed" I think the PPC folks are a shakin in their boots. Good bye PPC........

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:14:54 PM #
Read the other article. Sony engineers helped them design this. Heck, I'm not surprised if they are using Sony screens.

Sony is not doomed, they are still making money even if you buy Palm(tm) instead Clié(tm).

RE: Sony Is Doomed
Altema @ 9/20/2002 3:29:09 PM #
"I think the PPC folks are a shakin in their boots."


Have you heard the latest at some stores? If you turn in your Palm or any other PDA, they will give you $100.00 off any PPC.

SO... they get your old Palm, making it more difficult go back, and they get a new Microsoft convert. Plus, when you get frustrated with the increased amount of work to do the same things, you just have to put up with it because you don't have your Palm anymore. By the time you get over the novelty (5-8 months), your old handheld is just a faint memory.

RE: Sony Is Doomed
Foo Fighter @ 9/20/2002 4:40:11 PM #
> "Have you heard the latest at some stores? If you turn in your Palm or any other PDA, they will give you $100.00 off any PPC."

From whom did you hear this? I don't know of any store(s) that take old PDAs on trade-in for PPC hardware. And even if this is true...I certainly don't have a problem with this scheme. Sounds like a good competitive business strategy to me.

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:50:18 PM #
Ok, the current NR-70v STILL ownz over any Palm: 480x320. Built in keyboard. Virtual Grafitti. And built in camera. I don't see ANY of those on this Palm. Do you? :)
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:58:45 PM #
CompUSA will take an old PDA in on purchase of a new PPC
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:16:49 PM #
NO ONE IS DOOMED! Business will continue as always.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:31:59 PM #
"It's a unique and original design"
ARe you kidding? Have you heard of the Zaurus? This is a complete knockoff of that design. Where's the unique? Where's the original.
ha ha palm versus sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:47:56 PM #
Palm versus Sony has got to be the most STOOPID argument going back and forth ever. Who cares?

This looks like a nice unit. Sony will continue to introduce new designs as well. Hopefully they'll both have sucess-

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:56:23 PM #
    ARe you kidding? Have you heard of the Zaurus? This is a complete knockoff of that design. Where's the unique? Where's the original.
It is??? Is there a keyboard on the Tungsten? Is there another PDA with a sliding cover over a Graffiti entry area? Since the answer to both is "NO", your complaint makes no sense whatsoever.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:10:33 PM #
"It is??? Is there a keyboard on the Tungsten? Is there another PDA with a sliding cover over a Graffiti entry area? Since the answer to both is "NO", your complaint makes no sense whatsoever."

If we're splitting hairs, then I guess you'd have to include the fact that the Tungsten doesn't operate on Linux, doesn't have 32MB/64MB onboard memory, etc. But the point I was making was that design-wise (ala sliding plate), the Tungsten is not "unique or original." Your points about whether or not the sliding plate covers a graffiti area or a keyboard is moot. It could cover digital camera or trackpad for all I care.

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:36:42 PM #
You're not a patent lawyer by any chance? B*asterizing a phrase: A Patent by any other remote similarity would still pay as sweetly...

-- Craig Bowers

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:16:40 PM #
Sony is what? I never had the impression that Sony was sitting around waiting to be dominated by Palm. Nothing beats 320 x 480. Nothing. In two weeks (or days...) I'm sure we will get news about Sony producing something called a NR90... (Guess)... I've owned both Sony and Palm. Sony sets the standard. Did I mention nothing beats 320 x 480? Palm isn't even in the rear view mirror in the world of Sony.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:14:36 PM #
Nothing beats 320x480? Uh.. VGA? SVGA? XGA?

Not so many years ago, VGA was a luxury, not a standard. I STILL know people that consider 1600x1200 on a 20" monitor to be too small for everyday use.

There will always be folks who want more resolution. ALWAYS. IBM made a Palmtop PC in Japan (PC110) that did full 640x480 VGA in less real estate than the NR70 screen. And it looked wonderful. If old Blue had bothered to continue that line of portables past the 486, I'da NEVER bought a PDA.

Don't underestimate the appeal of more for less. And remember that the one who ends up with the most software written for their platform, WINS. Regardless of whether it's the best, or whether it gets shipped buggier than Naked Lunch.


KEEP WRITING PALMOS SOFTWARE AND REGISTER YOUR SHAREWARE!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:20:19 PM #
"Palm isn't even in the rear view mirror in the world of Sony."

Yes, of course. This is because Sony has 10% of the market and Palm has 35%. You, my sony-loving friend, cannot see palm in the rear view because they are miles AHEAD.

No go put some more silly putty on your NR70 hinge so that it doesn't keep falling forward and hitting you in the nose.

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:34:12 PM #
The market share doesn't matter

What matters is the trend ,allI know is a few yeards ago (2 maybe) Palm has like 80-90% of the market now 3x% .. !? ... you still don't see Palm is at the edge of dying ??

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:55:19 PM #
Yeah, Sony is really Doomed.. but only for these few days before rumours of the next Sony device appears.

You guys are comparing a Palm OS5 device with what Sony has in OS4. Let's wait for the next Sony device and see. History (at least for the past year) does not favour Palm.
VGA beats 320x480
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 4:13:35 AM #
VGA+ (480x720) is easily implemented on a device with virtual grafitti. Just do pixel tripling to get 480x480 (vs 320x320) plus the virtual grafitti area of 480x240 (vs 320x160). Alternatively, go even higher in resolution with pixel quadrupling 640x960 with a virtual grafitti area of 640x320. May need a magnifying glass or reading glasses though.

David

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:29:17 AM #
With all due respect, Palm invented the segment, and has their head on straight. The fact is, a OS5 320x320 Palm is the new standard. And when people ask at a counter for a PDA, they ask for a Palm.

Long Live the King!

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 11:19:54 AM #
"The fact is, a OS5 320x320 Palm is the new standard. And when people ask at a counter for a PDA, they ask for a Palm."

They ask for a Palm OS device, and make that a Sony.

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:10:00 PM #
People who are using Sony are bashing Palms like PPC users would do.

What the **** are you guys whinning for? Ur just 10% of the community. :P

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:20:42 PM #
Palm invented what? Palm didn't invent anything. U.S. Robotics bought Palm and 3Com bought U.S. Robotics. The same people who ruined 3Com are now running Palm with exactly the same results. Lets sell high priced devices with a minimum of innovation for years. What a great business plan. The only reason there are more Palms sold is that they have a brand name and are more prevalent in stores. Once people know more about PDA's they buy Sony or maybe a Pocket PC.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:08:15 PM #
If I'm watching television and there is a show that I think is crap, I dont wast my precious life whinging about it, I change the channel. UNLESS deep down inside I really do like "Days of our lives", and just whinge so I dont get embarresed when someone see's me watching it.

MY POINT? You people complaning about Palm, and beefing up Sony, are actually very keen on Palm and what they come out with next. Otherwise you would not hang around a site that is currently a buzz with Palm rumors. If you really preferr Sony, why dont you read up on this stuff at Clei Planet or some dedicated Sony site. If not and you hang around this site, please respect the information that is provided, especially from ED.

And for f*** sake, stop posting comments on here as though it is a complaints board to Palm. Why dont you write to Palm if you have some good idea's or constructive critasism. This site is to hear comments mainly from ED (sensational work as always) and respond with our comments and idea's. NOT to pick the crap out of someones comments for spelling mistakes, difference of opinion etc.

Bruce B

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 9:06:25 PM #
No ... usually people bash palm because they really see a bad product. and yes those people usually love palm product, well used to anyway, and they are hoping palm to get better not get worse and worse. If there is a handheld by handera, I bet there won't be much people posting at all.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 9:42:49 PM #
How can you or anyone claim it is a bad product before it is even released, let alone announced. Pardon my ignorance and assumption that you are not a marketing manager, but what would you know about a bad product? I mean who gives a s*** what your needs/desire/dream pda is! Palm and every company in the world, market towards what they believe is a trend/future/option for their product. So there you go again, all about you! eh

Sorry to be so harsh but come on, give each company a go. You dont see Palm supporters at Clie sites saying "ohr another pda discontinued S suck P rule, ohr me battery dont last S suck P rule, ohr ohr ohr, YOU KNOW WHY ?
Palm users are only interested in their own devise. It works for us/them. Why stab at others. I'm not religeous, but I dont hang around churches saying G sucks anarchy rules.! You know what I'm getting at?

My opinion, and I'm not a guru in any of the pre mentioned fields, "This will be great product, and will draw more attention to the Palm OS"

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:13:39 AM #
Dear Bruce B

the reason we are complaining is that yes there
is problem, and no Palm does not what to fix it.

It is obvious that the rest of the world shares
are exact feelings others explain why palm stock
is trading FOR $ .80 CENTS, if this was a great
company with great products and on time innovations
or had a clue, they would be trading at a much higher rate.

So not only does the user community think this company
is DOA, but the investment community who has much more
insite to the inter-workings of upper management than you or I will ever have, realize that products being
released or not going to be winners.

So get a clue SIR.

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 9:43:01 AM #
I think stock is down to 60 cents, and because 60 cents is less than 100 cents they will be de-listed from the NASDAQ. Great company.
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 10:21:04 AM #
Yes.... Palm was delisted.... That speaks volumes. I see that Palm OS 5 is finally catching up to Sony OS 4.1. Kudos to them. Oh wait! No camera, no jog dial, no keyboard, no hi-res+... As a once loyal Palm buyer I have to laugh at the opinions of those that try and trash the Clie line. You can't compare apples and oranges. Sony innovates, Palm imitates. If you've never owned a Clie than you should probably keep quiet. Palm may own a larger share of the market today, but that argument is silly too. The general trend over the last two years has shown rapid growth for Sony. They had no market share over two years ago. If you look at most message boards (for Palm related stuff) Sony gets about 1/2 of the traffic.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee....

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 4:42:46 PM #
At the end of the day it is all down to personal preferences and what works for you as an indivdual best. I have used both and owned Palm m5x5 and Sony Clie 6x5 products. Both are worthy products as will be in the next generation from BOTH companies. Don't expect Sony to be sitting back either, I am sure there will be some announcements from them soon. Personally I loved the Clie but still returned it and went back to a m505 due to the small buttons (impractical), lack of expense app (third party ones are too expensive and not trivial to use) and most importantly, my usage demanded that I had more battery life than the Clie offered. Obviously there are disadvantages and advantages for each. Personaly it sounds like the Tungsten suites my needs well. It would be nice to see more fact based comments posted and less emotional outbursts that tell us nothing, other than the state of mind of the author.
Neil
RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:30:23 PM #
Sony will out-innovate palm and the rest of them any-day.

SONY RULEZ!!!!!!!!

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:36:11 PM #
>"It would be nice to see more fact based comments posted and less emotional outbursts that tell us nothing, other than the state of mind of the author"

HERE HERE.

BB

RE: Sony Is Doomed
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 4:02:07 AM #
not quite honchos! sony is set to release it's newe line of clie's sporting the palm os 5 and ARM processor! it's gonna cost $100 more than the tungsten ($500) but it surely will be well worth it! the two new models are NX70V and NX60, they are the the modified and improved NR70Vs!

here are a few of the mouth-watering features that palm definitely won't have!:

1. a digital still and VIDEO camera that can record M

2. all the built-in palm apps will support the 320x480 resolution of the screen and there is also a built-in launcher that is quite sazzy!

the other stuff, like the built-in voice recorder (used to be only found in pocket pcs), bundled palmsource web browser, mp3 player, among others, are also found in the new tungsten!

bottomline is, the only advantage the tungsten has is its built-in bluetooth capability (sony has a slot for awireless module but you'll have to buy it seperately)and its small and compact size (the NX70V will be the size of the NR70V but a bit thicker owing to the wireless module slot). even the "double-density" screen is overshadowed by the 320x480 resolution screen of the clie!

it will only be a matter of time before most, if not all, palm loyalists will be enlightened and choose tolive the sony pda way of life!

So what does the T stand for?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:12:08 PM #
Tungsten T hmm T for Todd? (CEO of Palm source) B^)
T for BlueTooth? but then why not Tungsten BT or B?
I know, T = Tungsten
Or is it just cause Tongsten T sounds cool like Tom Teriffic

RE: So what does the T stand for?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:44:27 PM #
Turbo
RE: So what does the T stand for?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 9:29:26 PM #
If the Tungsten W is for Wireless then maybe T is for Thin.
RE: So what does the T stand for?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:33:06 AM #
W for wireless, T for tethered.. =P

Okay, maybe not. =)

RE: So what does the T stand for?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 8:46:36 AM #
Tungsten is an extremely strong and expensive metal. I think Palm are using the name Tungsten to show that it is a top of the line handheld.
RE: So what does the T stand for?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:21:33 AM #
T - stands for Terminate / Tardy / Trash


RE: So what does the T stand for?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 7:58:45 AM #
T for THIN?! Not.

How about TARDY, which is what this device is since it should have been introduced this time LAST year.

Booring...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:18:36 PM #
I think this is another disappointing, uninspired design from Palm. The hard graffiti area is completely unnecessary. The directional pad is identical to the Sharp Zaurus D-pad... which isn't very good for games (although better than the old Palm up-down buttons).
RE: Booring...
useybird @ 9/20/2002 6:59:58 PM #
This is what disgusts me. people are compaining about this tungsten, It's too unoriginal, i hate hard grafitti, there's no jog dial, etc. This is what all of us have been waiting for for the past 9 months. We finally have an OS5 device. Be happy that it's here. And Quit your cryin'. It actually looks like it could have potential to be a good seller. My only gripe is that the price seems too high.

----------------------------------------
Crack-smash! Splatter: The sound of the MLB using Pocket PC's instead of Baseballs.
It looks like a turtle
speed-angel @ 9/21/2002 1:19:10 AM #
I think it is ungly and whoever owns palm stocks can I borrow them and short them please!

RE: Booring...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 8:48:56 AM #
Why is everyone complaining? all we've seen is a few pics, and suddenly everyone is saying "i want a jog dial, I hate graffiti, I think the graffiti cover is bad" and so on, and so on. I think it will be a great OS5 PDA... if it sells for the right price. Wait until you've actually seen it before dissmissing it.
RE: Booring...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 3:36:08 AM #
So, why do people have to wait before complaining but they don't have to wait before saying it looks good?

I have a TV remote. It has a sliding cover that hides a bunch of buttons that are seldom used. The kids slide that thing up and down, up and down all day long. Guess what? It doesn't stay closed anymore.

Adding moving parts to a device is a bad idea. Some are useful and reasonable. This one seems trivial and gratuitous.

RE: Booring...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:57:42 PM #
I agree. The Sony NR70 is model of perfection when it comes to well thought-out designs. I use it very frequently and have had no problems.

You people should just buy Sony and throw your worries away.

Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor

Sweetlu @ 9/20/2002 3:20:03 PM #
with high res+

Since pictures of the high end models cam out today, perhpas a picture of Veld will come out on Monday

___________________________________
Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:59:59 PM #
I think you might be right. Palm did say "3 new" palms will be out. The Veld might just be an update for the 515. The other possiblity is the Veld might actually be the new PDA/Phone combo and all the Tungsten W is the replacement for the 705 :) The other good news about this is the 515 will have to be around $300 or less now.
RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:16:10 PM #
you might be on to something. They haven't used the Veld name yet and we thought it would be the pda/phone combo device but it's not. This leaves the M515 being upgraded to 320X320. That would be nice!
RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:56:32 PM #
Umm...no. There have already been leaked photos of all 3 new models. Try going to www.palminfocenter.com and looking at those pretty things on the home page. They are called pictures.
RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:57:35 PM #
Um, excuse me if I'm wrong, but this is the 3rd and final of the *three* new Palms to be released next month.
A simple and quick look at the headlines on PIC's front page currently should answer your question:

"Palm Says Three New Models Coming Next Month"

(1) "Rumor: Picture of Palm Zire"
(2) "Rumor: Pictures and Details of Palm's Upcoming Smartphone"
(3) "Rumor: Picture of the Tungsten T"

I don't see where you fit a revamped M5xx into that mix.

RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:25:56 PM #
yes I understand, but where is/what is the Veld?

I think by new they meant new from the ground up which these three are indeed "new".

Bringing out an "Update" to the M515 and calling it the Veld would not be new, just another upgrade with a different name.

RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
Token User @ 9/20/2002 5:32:49 PM #
I think previous discussion showed that Zire and Tungsten were registered as trademarks internationally, but Veld was only in the US. Doesn't disprove the theory, but it does sound like a stretch.

RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
useybird @ 9/20/2002 7:05:06 PM #
the veld...hmmmm... Isn't that a Ray Bradbury Story?

----------------------------------------
Crack-smash! Splatter: The sound of the MLB using Pocket PC's instead of Baseballs.
RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
Sweetlu @ 9/20/2002 9:16:07 PM #
The Zire is the low end model under $100 & will run on Palm OS 4.1

The Tungsten W is the upcoming Smartphone but will be running under 4.1 OS as well.

The Tungsten T is the high end model & run with an ARM chip and OS 5.

The Veld got to be a middle range model. Replace the up and down button from the V/M5XX sseries with a D-Pad & upgrade the screen with high res. Unfortuantely, Since a mide range model goes between $300 - $400, it would probably run under Palm 0S 4.1. I would love High res+, ARM processor, & OS 5 in the m500 form factor.

___________________________________
Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

RE: Makes you wonder if Veld is in a V/m5XX form factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:25:28 AM #
Or maybe it isn't at all...

Tungsten T
Tungsten W

Two different items, maybe they represent two and three of the three new devices.

power button?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:27:09 PM #
Where is the power button?
RE: power button?
fleegle @ 9/20/2002 3:34:27 PM #
Maybe you have to press the Palm logo to turn it on. Otherwise, it is probably on top (hidden from view).

RE: power button?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:55:35 PM #
LOL....would be kinda cool if you had to press PALM logo to turn it on....
RE: power button?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:59:09 PM #
It's the center button of the D-pad. I don't understand how it work either.
RE: power button?
fleegle @ 9/20/2002 4:19:16 PM #
I was thinking the same thing originally. But, if the power button was in the middle of the D-pad, you might accidentally turn it off when you are using it.

RE: power button?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:03:34 PM #
I think the D-pad button acts as an enter key. Hopefully you will be able to program it to be used as a HOME button when the unit is closed since access to the Home button would be covered up.
RE: power button?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:19:36 PM #
Maybe it works like the D-pad-like button on Panasonic CD player's remote control. Press the button to turn it on, press it for 2 seconds to turn it off. That way you won't accidently turn the unit off.
RE: power button?
vgz @ 9/22/2002 7:16:09 PM #
Could be set up so that it turns on when you slide the cover down and off when you close it. Smaller in your pocket and no way to get turned on by accident. But who knows, if it was set up this way half the people would love it and half would hate it.

Matt
RE: power button?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:29:58 PM #
it is my understanding that if you press and hold (for a couple of seconds, I presume)the center/select button on the d-pad then this will power the unit on and off....
RE: power on? That's what the slide is for
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:11:34 PM #
To turn on, you can either:

- slide the device open, or
- press the D-pad button

Pressing any other button won't work, otherwise it will accidentally come on in your pocket or purse.

To turn off, you can either:

- slide the device closed, or
- press and hold the D-pad button.

The slide option is user-configurable, i.e. you can opt for:
- do nothing when slide is opened
- turn on when slide is opened
- do nothing when slide is closed
- turn off when slide is closed

007

Why the gamble?

sandbuck @ 9/20/2002 3:56:41 PM #
If I were Palm I would have locked down revenue for the next two quarters by ARM-ing a new 500 series.

Risks:

1) Form factor. The .6 thickness sounds bette than earlier reports, but it still looks awkward.
2) Busy design. The slidng action makes it a novelty that I think will have a short shelf life. How's that Zaurus doing after the $100 price cut?
3) Price point?? Outside of networking, this unit's featureset barely holds a candle to Sony's T-series. $450 tops, and that's only because of the wireless capability.

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:28:24 PM #
> Outside of networking, this unit's featureset barely holds a
> candle to Sony's T-series.

Wha? Palm's T is as least as good as Sony's T series and I think better. Both have Hi-Res screens, the same amount of RAM, and play MP3s. The Palm T's d-pad is way better than a jog-dial, plus it isn't saddled with those crappy buttons. Palm's T is 4" x 3" x .6". The T665C is 4.7" x 2.8 x .6". The Palm T has a 175 MHz processor, the T665C has a 66 MHz. The Palm T has a voice recorder, the T665C has nothing of the kind.

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:35:55 PM #
Tungsten T is a wash out product. It is way under powered for the price.
RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:01:55 PM #
The Sony T also has

Poly Phonic Sounds
Enhanced IR


RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:02:19 PM #
Why does everything think that this device will kill Sony's chances. If you noticed Todd's comment that Sony collaborated on the design, then it is obvious that this will not catch Sony by surprise.

This thing is still a yawn compared to the highly innovative (and equally gimmicky) NR70 series. If Sony could equal Palm's features running off OS4 and a 66Mhz CPU, imagine what they'll do with OS5!

This is what sony thinks
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:14:52 PM #
Give a nice design to palm -so that it can barely float and stay above water - while it keeps a NICER design for its new models - and then smack palm in the head - so that it goes down...while palm finally manages to come above water begging for another design - repeat the whole process.
Its a no brainer - just think people - if sony gave this design away to palm - what do you think it will come up with next time???
Jeez.....
Without palm there will be nobody to have fun with...so sony is just playing it cool....

RE: Why the gamble?
Ed @ 9/21/2002 8:51:03 AM #
Sony had no role in designing the Tungsten T. Some former Sony employees did work on it but they were just that, former Sony employees. Palm hired them away. Having your employees poached by a rival doesn't qualify as cooperation.

This comes stright from a Sony spokesperson who has asked me to help squash this rumor.

---
News Editor

RE: Why the gamble?
robrecht @ 9/21/2002 10:14:35 AM #
"Wha? Palm's T is as least as good as Sony's T series and I think better. Both have Hi-Res screens, the same amount of RAM, and play MP3s. The Palm T's d-pad is way better than a jog-dial, plus it isn't saddled with those crappy buttons. Palm's T is 4" x 3" x .6". The T665C is 4.7" x 2.8 x .6". The Palm T has a 175 MHz processor, the T665C has a 66 MHz. The Palm T has a voice recorder, the T665C has nothing of the kind."

You're comparing the next generation Palm with the last generation SONY.

Thanks, Robrecht

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:11:31 PM #
There is a difference in hi-res screens though, look at the difference between the t615 vs t665, both hi-res but the t665 is so much better(like wise for the SJ30). Until the Palm actually comes out and we can see it, saying the hi-res of the Palm is equal to the t665 is nonsense.
RE: Why the gamble?
sandbuck @ 9/21/2002 1:15:40 PM #
>> You're comparing the next generation Palm with the last generation SONY.

Of course the Tungsten is better. But not $150 better.

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 11:49:01 PM #
> Of course the Tungsten is better. But not $150 better.

Palm needs the money more than Sony. I'll gladly pay a premium to lift the company from its misery (Microsoft and Clie users are to blame).

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:26:07 AM #
Dear News Editor:

This design did not come from a former or existing
Sony Designer, Palm hired away an industrial design
director from sony to palm, but this design was
already completed by an existing internal id women,
who later was laid-off, so sony either way had zero
input.

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:47:31 AM #
Bad things about the T:

1. Teeny tiny screen. 320 x 480 should have been standard in OS5 -- Sony's pretty much fixed that on their own -- Palm will have to use Sony's hand-me-down innovation like they did with the 320 x 320 screen next time to stay alive.

2. No jog dial - When will Palm wake up to the usefulness of a jog dial in scrolling pages for text documents/forms/ebooks?!

3. No soft grafitti. Why the waste of space when it could be used for more screen?!

Good Things:

1. 175 Mhz ... about freaking time! Wonder how much faster the Sony NR-90 unit will be compared to this one. Thanks PPC for making Palm have to get some muscle under the hood to attempt multimedia/real gaming.

2. Audio... about freaking time! Wonder if the unit will sound good or will it be tinny and unusable as an mp3 player. Thanks PPC/Sony for pushing Palm into the 21st century!

3. 320 x 320 screen.. well, better than 160 x 160. Thanks Sony for making this possible.

RE: Why the gamble?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:33:45 PM #
For your information, Sony did not invent VG, or hires+, or jogdial, etc. I have a four year old casio with win ce and it has a jog dial, VG and all that stuff.

If you wanna give credit where credit is due then you have to acknowledge that PPCs had this stuff for years before any palm OS device.

Also, sony was not the first Palm OS device to have VG and Jog dial. That was Handera. Handera also had the first and only palm os device to feature compact flash.

So get off your Sony high horse and shut the **** UP!

RE: Why the gamble?
quake97 @ 9/26/2002 3:31:58 PM #
To the person who made the comment about the Tungsten being $150 more:

Think about what the Tungsten has over the Clies. First, a faster processor. Second, Bluetooth. If you want to add Bluetooth to a Clie you better fork over about $150-200.

Joe

Metal or plastic?

Foo Fighter @ 9/20/2002 4:32:42 PM #
Is the case made of metal or is it just plainted plastic?

RE: Metal or plastic?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:30:14 PM #
TUNGSTEN!
RE: Metal or plastic?
Ed @ 9/21/2002 8:55:21 AM #
I'm assuming it is metal because of the weight of this unit. 5.6 ounces is a bit high for a handheld this small, unless it has a metal casing.

---
News Editor
RE: Metal or plastic?
Foo Fighter @ 9/21/2002 5:43:49 PM #
I would agree, but it's hard to tell from the pic. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

RE: Metal or plastic?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:08:54 PM #
Can't remember the last 'high end pda' from Palm that was plastic? Titanium is one of the strongest v lightest metals in the world. Sounds like a good option if they found a big pile of it, as it is expensive.
RE: Metal or plastic?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:23:20 AM #
tungstan T is made of magnesium


RE: Metal or plastic?
Foo Fighter @ 9/22/2002 2:12:43 PM #
>> "tungstan T is made of magnesium"

Where are you getting this info? Source please?

RE: Metal or plastic?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:54:15 PM #
>">> "tungstan T is made of magnesium"

Where are you getting this info? Source please?"

Tungsten is a greyish whiteish metalic element, Zire posibly comes from zirconium, which is also a greyish metalic element, which is very similar to titanium. As far as I know titanium is about the strongest/lightest metal we have been using. So my guess is Titanium. As above states is also highly possible as I believe the V to m505 are a Magnesium alloy. Very light silverish whiteish in colour, but as anyone who has owned a V to m505 it dents and scratches easily (the back if using just the leather flip cover). Titanium would be much stronger and hence the body could be thinner.

Great!!!... At last, an 8-way joypad!

Alan @ 9/20/2002 4:31:53 PM #
I think the news of this machine is great!, not least because its not only Arm (and Bluetooth :) but its also got what looks like an 8-way joypad! :) ... finally!.

The button design on other PalmOs machines, for years has been very poor for gaming; which has restricted game designs to work around the poor button designs. Which is ironic, considering the amount of interest in games for PDAs. (The people who make PDAs only need to look at the number of PDA games around and listen to gamers constant requests for better (and 8-way!) joypad style controllers on all makes of PDAs).

This design is looking very good news for Palm. :)

Alan Barton
info@3dagames.com
http://www.3dagames.com

RE: Great!!!... At last, an 8-way joypad!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:20:06 PM #
...and good news for you, Mr. 3Dagames :)
RE: Great!!!... At last, an 8-way joypad!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:24:49 PM #
I disagree.

Looks like a 4-way D-Pad. Take a look at the detailed pic:

http://www.geek.com/pdageek/pics/tungstenpic.htm


RE: Great!!!... At last, an 8-way joypad!
Beastmaster @ 9/20/2002 8:57:03 PM #
Now, if someone could confirm that the Tungsten will allow multiple button presses while using the DPad..

RE: Great!!!... At last, an 8-way joypad!
Altema @ 9/21/2002 10:26:31 PM #
It is an 8 way control using 4 switches. Pressing in any of the diagonal positions activates 2 switches at the same time and you get a diagonal response. For a directional control, that would give North, Northeast, East, Southeast, South, Southwest, West, and Northwest.

Pertaining to multiple key presses, Palm OS has done this fine on all my devices beginning with the IIIe (which had no problem with 4 key presses at the same time), so I can't see them removing that feature. I assume they allways had this feature, but I don't know that from experience. The earlier PPC units could only handle one button at a time, but that has been fixed in all the new units.

Gee, with this new control, I might even be able to get past level 25 in 3D StarFighter!

Design

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:48:21 PM #
I like the fact that Palm is trying to innovate, but I'd rather have a Palm 505 form factor that runs OS 5 and the new processor.

I don't like the slider as the shorter size is not much of an advantage yet the slider is an extra thing I have to do, and there is a high probability of breaking the unit.

I'm reluctant to move away from Palm but I will either wait for their next OS 5 model, or go to Sony.

The major disappointment I have regarding OS 5 is no virtual graffitti area which Sony will support I assume.

RE: Design
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:21:27 PM #
I agree. I'm still on my second Palm (a Palm V after my original Pilot 1000). For me to upgrade I need to see a significant advantage. The size of the V was such an advantage over the Pilot.
This new Palm has a hires color screen, that is nice, however the color screens I've seen don't look very good in bright light, and they use too much battery life. I'd rather have a readable screen than a color screen. In this regard the new Palm screen is of limited value. Bluetooth is worthless to me, but I guess it is OK if you want to buy hardware for your PC so you can wirelessly sync, or if you want to sync with your cellphone. Not much interest for me.
I think I'll continue to wait and see if Palm can do an OS5 machine with wireless built in that isn't any bigger than the Tungsten. Until then, the Palm V is still the sweet spot for me.
RE: Design
ahecht @ 9/20/2002 10:48:01 PM #
I'm sticking to my V until something comes out that:

a) is color
b) has the same form factor
c) has the same battery life

Until then, I see no reason to upgrade. It's not worth the downgrade in battery life and size.

RE: Design
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:15:37 PM #
true that...and to all ppl who say innovation is good therefore Tungsten horrible shape is better then older palm V/m5xx shape and it's compensation for new features,
sober up!!! and look at Zayo or Toshiba e300 with the
freaking not so hot (yet) microcrap ppc inside, faster processors, and more RAM.

PS waiting for palm/sony OS 5/6 320x480 in the m5xx/t6xx
shape and decent(that's for SONY ppl) battery life...

RE: Design
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 4:14:04 AM #
I really like the color screen on the Palm m515. Its so much easier to read than the Palm Vx and m505. If you keep the backlight on the low setting, which is still pretty bright (brighter than the m505), the battery life is close to the Vx's. If you are still using a Palm V and want to stick with the same form factor, strongly consider getting a m515. It's my favorite PDA.
RE: Design
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 8:43:50 AM #
"m5xx or V series is way better!"

Will all of you people who keep talking about the Vx shut up!

Keep your bloody Vx and stop encouraging palm to stagnate.

RE: Design
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:29:05 PM #
Incourage to stagnate? Not really. Seems Palm HAS stagnated, we are just saying what we would consider a welcome change.

Give us always-on email and internet in a small, color device. At least as small as the Palm III, hopefully as small as the Palm V.

Form factor is a mistake
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:58:18 PM #
What was Palm's most successful handheld... the Palm V. Why? Form factor.

Don't get me wrong, I owned a Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, and other "clunky" handhelds and I made due but when I bought a Palm V, that was it... no going back. The m505 wasn't bad but it was still bigger but I delt with it for color. My wife's Sony T615C is slim like m505 but with the bright 320x320 screen... selling well.

I am not opposed to the sliding bottom, but .1 inch thicker than an m505 and .2 thicker than a Palm V, .1 inch thicker than a Sony T615C... we are going backwards folks! I need one in my hand before I decide.

RE: Design
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:37:26 PM #
"I'm reluctant to move away from Palm but I will either wait for their next OS 5 model, or go to Sony"

Trust me, Sony is the only way to go. The have the best form factor, the nicest designs, the longest battery life and the awesome screen. Sony is the KING!

Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:53:46 PM #
Does this puppy play back MP3's?

If so I'll be the first in line.

RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:20:13 PM #
YES: it does play MP3. Why else would they have a headphone jack.
RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:54:32 PM #
No it does NOT have mp3,
it has a voice recorder, therefore an earbud..........
RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 2:18:55 AM #
Which is it? MP3 in or NO MP3?! And where's the headphone jack located?

RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 2:26:53 AM #
Ah, see what I mean? I would think if this thing had an MP3 player Palm would be pushing this fact hard. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a voice recorder. Disappointed...but not surprised. Anyone have any hard data?
RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 4:03:02 AM #
Palm isn't pushing anything yet! All this is still officially rumor. Repeat after me: "Palm states that the prototype known as 'Oslo' will NOT be released..."

RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:40:19 AM #
It has a 175 MHz RISC CPU, a 200 MHz DSP, an OS with multivoice waveform playback routines and an earphone jack. Even without the DSP, that should be enough horsepower for you to write your own mp3 decoder application. Call it an exercise for the student.
RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 5:12:56 PM #
200MHz DSP?! I'd not heard that before.

Anyway, I had warned Ed and Ryan to get a good rest -- among the announcements coming up, I expect we might see several for MP3/video players.

RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
Foo Fighter @ 9/21/2002 5:34:31 PM #
> "among the announcements coming up, I expect we might see several for MP3/video players."

This has been riding on my mind more than anything else. With the introduction of OS5/ARMware, will we now see RealOne Player for PalmOS? Will Pocket PC developers like PocketTV begin porting apps to PalmOS? Will Sony introduce a radical new video/audio player that puts all others to shame? So many questions....


RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:27:48 AM #
If it dousn't have an MP3 decoder built in, or coming on the disk, its a piece of *****!!!
RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:01:44 AM #
It plays MP3s. Period.
RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:02:21 AM #
I think mp3 is a foregone conclusion -- either by hook or hack it will be done!

If it's not designed specifically for mp3 playback, however, I wonder how cheapo the audio chip is in the unit. If Palm spent a little extra to get a LOUD and responsive chip then this would make a nice audio player. If they went cheap and low fidelity (and low volume) then this thing's only half the unit it could be.

RE: Yes it multimedia, but what does it mean?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:27:46 AM #
> I wonder how cheapo the audio chip is in the unit.

The OMAP1510, the CPU being used in the Tungsten T, has an integrated Digital Signal Processor. This runs at 200 MHz and is able to handle both streaming video and audio.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X11B22741

This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:22:54 PM #
When the pricing comes out I will see which one is the best.

This Palm model.
The Toshiba e310.
The HP iPAQ.

If they are all priced the same, I would go with a Pocket PC since I will get a 206Mhz processor, 32 to 64 MB of RAM and since this is Palm's first attempt I have a feeling this model won't have as much software right away.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:32:13 PM #
> since this is Palm's first attempt I have a feeling this model won't have as
> much software right away.

This model will be able to run just about all current Palm OS software. If software is important to you, the Palm platform is the way to go. There are thousands of programs, several times more than for those other handhelds you listed.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:47:07 PM #
I currently use a Toshi e570, and I can't wait to play around with the new OS5 Palms. I switched from a Palm V to the Toshi last February, and the only reason I haven't switched back to Palm is that I can play audiobooks and MP3's on the e570. If the Tungsten can play audiobooks, I'll buy one immediately and put the e570 up for sale. If you decide that you really want a Pocket PC, buy the e310 and not the iPAQ. The e310 is excellent value for the money. But if you've been using Palms for years, I bet you'll switch back to Palm several months later. There just aren't any real compelling advantages to using a Pocket PC.
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:47:15 PM #
Wrong, the e310 is a base PPC and is leap years ahead anything PalmOS has fielded so far. You get 206Mhz, 32MB RAM, Mic, 32MB ROM, MP3 player, Headphone jack, 240x320 color, SD card come on. Nothing in plams arsenal comes close and although there is more palm software the PPC software is much more polished and of commercial quality. Further, PPC2002 is just as good as PalmOS and synce seamlessly with MS OFffice and most windows software.

Want to step up and get a real kick ass machine the Toshiba e740 w/wifi or Audi0Vox 550G w 4" screen.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
useybird @ 9/20/2002 7:10:51 PM #
"Further, PPC2002 is just as good as PalmOS"

That's where you are wrong my friend. Ask any Palm user on this site and they will tell you that the PalmOS is way better than PPC because it is more efficient(memory and battery),simpler, more powerful, less expensive, and I could go on but my hands hurt from trying to use a PPC.

----------------------------------------
Crack-smash! Splatter: The sound of the MLB using Pocket PC's instead of Baseballs.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:27:23 PM #
> simpler, more powerful, less expensive,

More powerful? Are you on drugs?
I own both a Palm m515 and a Jornada 568. The Palm is indeed simpler, but it simply is not as powerful as the Jornada 568. Not even close.

As for less expensive. Yes my m515 is cheaper than the Jornada 568, but the e310 is the first of many PPCs which will be as small as the Palm m515 and cheaper. Currently $349 from Amazon.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:00:23 PM #
A PPC appears more powerful due to the huge processor. Of course 206Mhz will smoke a 33Mhz device, but have you seen B&W PPC's. Now imagine that lowered to 33Mhz. You see, scaled the Palm OS is faster using Mhz to a fuller ability than PPC which is brute force operating.
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:18:51 PM #
Actually, the e310 is $249 at Amazon right now. Plus, the e310 gets about 8-10 hours of realistic battery life (without MP3 playing, of course).
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:40:06 PM #
Pocket TV on Zayo runs 54 fps, how fast is this Tungsten anyway?
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:21:19 PM #
We got 6 Treo 90's, 2 Clie 655's, and 2 Toshiba e310's at work. Guess which one's are sitting unused? The Pocket PC 2002 device... the e310. No one likes the interface. It's too Windows like. The Windows concept does not work on a small screen. The screen resolution is nice, as well as the recording, but everything else is not too impressive. If the screen on the Treo's were high resolution, those would be the hand's down winner. Although the battery life on the Clie' is pretty bad.
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:01:01 AM #
Well, as a long time Palm and Sony user I thought I would give the Pocket PC a try. My IPAQ 3870 has worked (nearly) flawlessly since June (2002). No hard resets, no loss of data.

True, there are less software titles available, but the software I have purchased (not much shareware) has been excellently designed and worth every penny. I can do everything I did with my Sony 615 and NR70V. The screen is large and clear enough for my tired eyes. And the built-in bluetooth is great.

The Windows interface is very easy to use and the device permits me to open multiple applications (without lockups) at the same time. A little piece of freeware (go figure) allows me to bounce between applications with a simple tap. Battery life is as good (or bad) as the new Sony's. Just something to get used to. The only drawback to date has been with adding and removing add-on attachments (camera sled, PC card sled). Might as well just plan on a warm reset. But hasn't Bill always had a problem with hot swapping.

So when am I supposed to grow tired of this device, 5 or 6 months? I am already looking at the new 3970's. Palm or Sony are going to have to show me a bit more to earn my bucks!

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
Altema @ 9/21/2002 7:46:39 AM #
"The Windows interface is very easy to use"

I'm glad you became accustomed to the interface. The IT department here has not been so fortunate. About 30% of our telcomm engineering staff were PPC users in January of 2002. It is now September 2002 and the PPC usage rate is near zero. The reason? To quote our most hardcore PPC user (who also is one of our brightest and can afford any device): "I don't bother bringing it anymore, it's just not worth the hassle".

Although we will see a lot of hardware comparisons, the primary advantage of this Palm device is that it does not run Windows. This alone is a major factor that will undoubtedly get left out during discussions. PPC hardware is at 206Mhz right now. But guess what? That's as far as it will go until Windows gets a rewrite to take advantage of increased speeds... and the time frame for that is up to a couple of years. A Palm with a 400Mhz chip will run at 400Mhz. A PPC with a 400Mhz chip will not.

The CPU is the engine, think of it as one having 175 horsepower, the other having 206 horsepower. It would be a significant difference... if they were in the same size vehicle. However, if the 175 horse engine is in a sports car, and the 206 horse engine is in a station wagon pulling a trailer...

I'm not referring to looks, I'm talking about CPU loading. More efficient code will always win if the CPU speed is similar.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:10:56 PM #
You might want to pick up one of the last PPC models before they get crushed by Palm. :-)

Just kidding but OS 5 is going to be bad for the PPC's market share. With both OSs using the same microprocessors and offering the same multimedia, it is going to come down to software (where the PalmOS has the clear advantage) and screens (where 320x320 or even 320x480 is clearly better than 320x240).

Add in the fact that PalmOS models running 400 MHz XScale microprocessors will really RUN at 400 MHz (not about 200 MHz like the iPaqs do) and the PalmOS pulls farther ahead. There aren't any XScale models announced yet but we already know Palm will put one out early next year and Sony, Handspring, and HandEra haven't said who will make the microprocessors for their new models.

The PalmOS already owns the lowend and midrange and soon it will take over the highend too.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:20:37 PM #
when is Palm OS with 400Mhz will come out? Rumor of PPC running 800Mhz is already floating around.
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:20:38 PM #
> Rumor of PPC running 800Mhz is already floating around.

Until Microsoft adds full support for the XScale processor, it doesn't matter how fast the XScales get. The iPaqs that use the 400 MHz XScale PXA250 are no faster than 200 MHz StrongARM ones. (Don't take my word for it, check the reviews.) An 800 MHz Xscale based iPaq will be the same speed. A 1 Billion MHz iPaq will be the same speed as a 200 MHz iPaq because the PocketPC OS isn't optimized for the XScale processor. Microsoft says it may release an XScale optimized version of Pocket PC in a few years.

I expect Sony to announce a handheld based on the PXA250 as early as next month.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:18:42 PM #
what on earth are you talking about? there is a tweak up OS already.

take a look at this newest PPC number.
http://www.pocketpctools.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=112

On the other hand we have no number whatsoever about the OS5.0 performance compare to old dragonball, let alone PPC. All are just heresay.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
Altema @ 9/21/2002 11:09:03 PM #
"what on earth are you talking about? there is a tweak up OS already."

Yes, you are correct, but take a close look at the benchmark results. A few of the functions are at least twice as fast (Media fps and screen display functions). However, most of the functions see only a slight improvement, and not the expected 2x. Some of the math functions are even slower on A600.

You are completely right about not having any hard data on OS 5... it's only been speculation and hearsay so far. It will be interesting to me to see the real benchmarks on media FPS. A 33Mhz Palm will do 24 fps fine, but I usually cut mine down to 15fps for anything longer than 5 minutes.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:03:55 AM #
>> Plus, the e310 gets about 8-10 hours of realistic battery life (without MP3 playing, of course).

A flat-out lie. I could not get more than 4 hours on mine, without mp3 (and I've used 5 or 6 other units extensively). PocketPC's have a long way to go, and let me tell you - it's NOT going anywhere!

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:14:43 AM #
>> Yes, you are correct, but take a close look at the benchmark results. A few of the functions are at least twice as fast (Media fps and screen display functions).

you do realize that all the machine on that table are 400Mhz Xscale do you? They are not a comparison between SA vs. Xscale ! (ie. the difference are brand and that Asus contains updated graphic driver)

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:10:55 AM #
Palm devices will get nowhere near PPC in power and functionality until they get: more processing power (i.e., 400 MHz+) which isn't in the Tungsten or probably in next year's Palms either. Bigger RAM -- 16 MB STINKS you need at least 64 MB to do killer video and games like on the PPC.

The real threat to both Palm and PPC is Sony and they are not going to let the limitations of OS5 hamper them in trying to become equal to or better than PPC.

You always hear the 'bye bye PPC!' stupidity whenever Palm comes out with a halfway decent device -- Just like the new-age cults who proclaim the end of the world everytime a comet's due to pass the planet. Both are living in deluded fantasy worlds without any sense of reality.

The Palm OS is good for some things, but it's not easier to use nor does it have better software. PPCs has less software but it's 95% good and 5% crap. Palm has about 65% crap and 35% good. It about evens out with PPC programs being by far the more power packed bundles out there.

GUI on both Palms and PPCs are pretty much the same after 3rd party apps. are used -- Silver Screen, Launcher X, Dashboard, YiShow, WISBar, etc. and they do pretty much the same thing in the same way. If you look at how many replacement desktop launchers (not plug-ins) there are per platform, it looks like Palm needs more GUI help than PPC -- indicating that it's not a easy or useful as many Palm diehards think. This is simply a tired old argument that really doesn't have much life left in 2002.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:31:05 AM #
for me, the ipaq is a serious non runner. it might have everything bundled in but, seriously, the device is a total tank. and forget using a cover, its seriouly briefcase material then.

if you have a wheelbarrow for your pda, then sure, spend the money on an ipaq. you'll need another wheelbarrow for the diesel generator to keep the thing going longer than 2 hours too.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:34:39 AM #
too bad you cannot claim that Palm has the lightest device . It's a brick! (ok short brick, but still a brick). And with that come a severe expandability options (just SD). Tungsten is no more than m515 running on ARM.
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:40:00 AM #
> Tungsten is no more than m515 running on ARM.

You forgot the 320 by 320 screen (larger than any PPC), BlueTooth, MP3 playback, and a voice recorder. Oh yeah, it is going to be three times faster.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
Altema @ 9/23/2002 10:45:26 AM #
"you do realize that all the machine on that table are 400Mhz Xscale do you?"

No, I was thrown off by the wild variations and did not think they could possibly running the same speed. I stand corrected.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:46:34 AM #
>You forgot the 320 by 320 screen (larger than any PPC),
-It is smaller screen physically.
-most applications will use it as 160*160
-240*320 can be stretch with sub pixels or virtual windows, something that Palm OS cannot since the GUI API is so limited. So most of the time you will operate at 160*160 for older app, and 320*320 only on newer apps, a sad predicament since you need it the most for those Text based apps. Sony does it better with NR 70 big screen.

>BlueTooth, MP3 playback, and a voice recorder.
been there, done that. (can you add WiFi, CF, PCcard, sledge scanner, monitor adapter?)

>Oh yeah, it is going to be three times faster.
and where is the number? can you publish them, so we can have punch the Marketing department guy fest ala 16 bit screen? Last time i hear it's 3 time as fast as 33MhZ dragon ball, not a 400mHz xScale. That would bring Pocket TV at 150fps. (yeah right)

Tungsten has yet to prove that it can do all it promise as a multimedia capable PDA, instead of just m505 running on ARM.

RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:48:00 PM #
Sony is a better option than the palm and toshiba and ipaq. Sony has the best innovations and the best looks.
RE: This? Toshiba e310? HP iPAQ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:02:30 PM #
To the PPC fanatic from 10:46:34 AM who leaped all over my message from 10:40:00 AM... you should go back to school and demand your money back. Read my post again and this time notice that it starts with a quote from a previous comment "Tungsten is no more than m515 running on ARM." That meant my comparison was between the Tungsten T and the m515. Geez.

I like the PPC. I have both a Jornada and a Genio e550G (which rocks by the way) but it is people like you who give the rest of us a bad name.

Not Enough RAM

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:31:20 PM #
Blah, Blah, Blah...OS 5...Hmmm...Multimedia capability, high res screen. AND ONLY 16 MEGS OF RAM! THATS GONNNA BE A SHORT HI RES CD QUALITY MOVIE! Palm is beginning to look like a bunch of blazin' idiots. THANKS GOODNESS FOR SONY!!!!!!
RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:35:36 PM #
Oh for the love of god...

32 MB of RAM is not nearly enough for a decent resolution movie. Even PocketPC users resort to other means to make that type of thing happen (like mini harddrives).

RE: Not Enough RAM
Token User @ 9/20/2002 5:39:19 PM #
Does Sony play multimedia off the system RAM or only off of the MS? Get a grip ...

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:38:58 PM #
Talking about blazin idiots, You seem to fit your own description.
I do not know anybody who would store a movie etc in RAM. Thats what your SD card if for, and why you can get 512mb cards and not 512mb in RAM.

Useable flash memory is FAR FAR better that more RAM. 64mb of RAM would have a significant draining effect on the battery even in 'OFF' mode, as compared to 16mb and more flash memory to put applications into eg DateBK5 etc.

Bruce B

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:54:13 PM #
RAM is much faster and integrates better with legacy apps. Including only 16mb was a mistake on a high-end device.
RE: Not Enough RAM
newton @ 9/20/2002 11:11:37 PM #
Don't you guys get it?! Palm may release a model with 32M RAM early next year with only 150 bugs more.

Tunsten is mere a tool to set the expected price level and bring out the customers desire for more ram then, move in for the kill! Bang! the old Palm V to Palm Vx trick.

I'm not sure it will work this time. Too many competitors, Sony, Handera, Handspring and even some Japanese/Korea smartphone makers will all come in too quickly to ruin Palm's carefully cultivated market.

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:52:49 AM #
sony Shmony! Oh, and they have more ram????? Last I checked, 16 was the max.

I was a former NR70. The problem with sony's are their weight. It makes holding a pda tiresome. I then went to a treo 90 which I loved, but had the opportunity to buy a m515 for dirt cheap. I miss the light weight treo 90 and it's too late to switch the m515 with the OS5 stuff around the corner. Yeah, 65k colors is cool, but I like to lay down and use my pda, so if this palm tungsten is light, I might go for it.
I love the design. I think it beats everything out there. The SJ series look too mundane. And why in God's name would I pay $200 to have bluetooth on a sony model. And why would I again buy memory sticks that no one else uses. Palm or handspring with SD is the way to go!!!!

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:23:43 PM #
all I'm saying is wait until Palm release it, and see the few little things they have and think about the Palm OS before demending more RAM. RAM RAM RAM is that a word you learnt that is latin for makes anything better?
RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:32:05 AM #
This thread is not asking the right questions. The ARM CPU uses a different ISA (Instruction set architecture) to the "older" Motorola 68K based DragonBall. If we are to discuss memory, I would like to understand the comparative instruction densities between the two (as this will indicate if the equivelent OS5 program will take more or less memory than it's OS4 predicessor). In other words, if program takes x instructions where each instruction is 16bits(and X KBytes) on a DragonBall, when recompiled for the (16bit or 32bit? ISA) ARM (assumes it can be), how many instructions would it be (y instructions and Y KBytes). Obviously OS4 apps are interpreted in the OS5 system but this would give an indication if we can expect OS5 apps to be the same size, smaller or larger than their OS4 equivalents. Then we can saw whether 16MB is too much, too little or just right.

Ed...any answers on the equivalent instruction counts for say the address book? Also can you confirm that DragonBall instructions and 16bits each but I am not sure if ARM is 16 or 32b (I think 32b as ARM introduce the the "Thumb" instructions for higher instruction densities).

Thanks
Neil

RE: Not Enough RAM
newton @ 9/22/2002 11:18:56 AM #
Neil,

I remember saw a post by JM8571 at PDA Buzz forum back in 2001, stating that the old Dragonball processor is capable of addressing 8 pages of 16MB of memory. But the DRAM controller is capable of controlling only 2 banks, which are 8Mb apiece. Making the total DRAM capability 16 MB.

I do not believe the power consumption theory: saying 32Mb RAM is consuming 3 times more power than 16Mb RAM

Take a look at the comparison between Palm¡¯s top gun m515 and PPC¡¯s low end model Toshiba e310:

E310: 32M RAM,32MB FlashROM£¬CPU 206MHz Intel StrongARM£¬Screen 240x320, 64K TFT¡£
Palm 515: 16MB RAM, 4MB Flash ROM, CPU 33MHz Dragonball VZ, Screen 160x160£¬64k

Forget about the pricing issue. From hardware perspective, Palm has made killings, hasn¡¯t it?

The point is independent battery power endurance test has proved that the e310 with 32M RAM 202MHz CPU(with multimedia applications) is no inferior to Palm¡¯s 16M RAM 33MHz top gun. What¡¯s going on here? At similar physical dimension (battery technology), palm with smaller screen display, three times lower speed processor, these should have contributed to Palm¡¯s battery test advantages.

Fishy, isn¡¯t it, all about the more RAM eating that many batteries. The magnitude is exaggerated here.

Face it, other manufacturers are planning OS5 equipment. Customers will choose whichever model which give them less hustle and better support to legacy programs.


RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:34:12 AM #
-------
sony Shmony! Oh, and they have more ram????? Last I checked, 16 was the max.
-------

Are there any Sony rumors out for OS 5 devices? NO! How long has the NR70v been around. MONTHS! Get a grip, jus because it beats your little POS doesn't mean you have to cry about it.

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:55:09 PM #
A Sony Clie has only ONE Meg of usable read/write RAM, and M515 only 256K. The rest is just simulated flash memory. Simulating larger amounts of flash memory with DRAM is just plain stupid for a portable device because the DRAM refresh power requirements.

More flash is the answer, not more RAM. Palm has put in just enough RAM for legacy apps, but not enough so that developers keep on writing obsolete applications that can't run correctly out of memory cards.

I expect more built-in flash memory before anything like 64 MB of RAM on a PalmOS handheld.

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 8:40:37 PM #
What if someone need to use several large database and have to reside in the active RAM for the reasons of quick access and avoiding crushing the handset( some legacy programmes just do that, and some medical database read/write from/to card take intorlarable long)?

I agree that the software developer should put more effort in supporting palm's VFS which palm should have put forward and foresee the problem long time ago.

However, it will be a bad decision to push developer to do that by limiting the hardware RAM now, other hardware producer may just move in and take advantage of it.

>I expect more built-in flash memory before anything like 64 MB of RAM on a PalmOS handheld.

Good point. let's see if Palm will arm the Tunsten T with that as it's still a mystery on ROM.

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 9:07:39 PM #
I don't care how much spin you put on it, Less is NOT More when it comes to native RAM!!! The more the better!!!
RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:13:42 AM #
"Yeah, 65k colors is cool, but I like to lay down and use my pda, so if this palm tungsten is light, I might go for it."

Palmasutra...

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:33:00 AM #
Movies LIKE RAM, Games LIKE RAM, the more RAM, the smoother things run. There isn't a total disconnect with the PC in terms of RAM -- more is better, less is worse.
RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:46:13 PM #
"Movies LIKE RAM, Games LIKE RAM, the more RAM, the smoother things run. There isn't a total disconnect with the PC in terms of RAM -- more is better, less is worse."

There's a big difference between the RAM usage in PC and the PDA. With the PC, the more RAM you have the better performance it gets, because the OS makes less hard drive paging (which is a lot slower than the RAM access). With Palm, there's no hard drive, therefore you will not get any performance gain with more RAM; but yes you can store more stuff with more RAM, but that's about it. Also, 16Mb is more than enough for average user. If you like more RAM, buy an SD/MMC card.

RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:29:29 PM #
I use a Sony NR70 and the movies and games look great on it. I think Sony has done a great job with their new products.
RE: Not Enough RAM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:45:42 PM #
>With Palm, there's no hard drive, therefore you will not get any performance gain with more RAM;
> but yes you can store more stuff with more RAM, but that's about it. Also, 16Mb is more than
> enough for average user. If you like more RAM, buy an SD/MMC card.

The common practice is to put the program reside in active RAM and its database on SD card.

However, many users have bad experiences of this operations as: 1. many programs do not support VFS and simply crash/hung the unit. 2. large database read and write from/to the card takes very long time. some even minutes (like some medical databases)

So the I agree with the More RAM the Better.

Wireless and battery

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:34:23 PM #
It would have been cool if there were 2 SD slots - one for a memory card and the other for the WiFi SD card (if and when it comes out).

I think an important issue is the battery - lifespan? I sure hope the battery is removeable ala the Clie's

RE: Wireless and battery
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 6:09:24 PM #
I don't think that putting in an extra SD slot on the off chance that an 802.11 SDIO card is released during the life cycle of the Tunsten would be very smart. It would drive up price of the unit (which is already rather hefty).
RE: Wireless and battery
Ed @ 9/22/2002 10:36:07 AM #
A company named SyChip has announced it plans to have an 802.11 SDIO card finished by the end of this year. I think the release is planned for early 2003.
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3648

---
News Editor
RE: Wireless and battery
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:04:43 AM #
There have also been announcements for a Bluetooth to 802.11b bridge device around. It has its own battery and you could clip it to your belt, carry it in your briefcase, ... whatever.

RE: Wireless and battery
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:12:24 PM #
The SyChip thing sounds great - but ANOTHER SD Slot on the Tungsten just for that product? As long as there is a built in wireless (BT or 802.11b), Palm would never put in an extra SD just to support a future 802.11 card.
RE: Wireless and battery
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:15:34 AM #
That's not the only reason for it. There are others. For example Margi's Presenter To Go. On a PocketPC or a HandEra 330, you can store multiple large presentations on one card, and access them for presenting from the card. On the Visor and SD versions, you need to have the presentation RAM based, because there's no second card/slot. Or there's VFS based maps with a future GPS SD card, or VFS based database with a barcode scanner. Both things one can do now with the CF versions in a HE330. Then there's the flexibility that a slot for your wireless choice, offers you. 801.11b built in is fine, but what if you company uses 802.11a, or what is if you need some other wireless standard (CDPD, or GPRS, or 1xRTT data). Built in can be cheaper, and I think BT makes sense for this, but anything else is a little more dicey.
RE: Wireless and battery
Altema @ 9/23/2002 12:32:21 PM #
"On the Visor and SD versions, you need to have the presentation RAM based, because there's no second card/slot."

Not sure how the Visor version handles it, but the SD version handles it quite nicely. You keep all your presentations on the card, select the presentation you want loaded, then pop out the card and insert the presenter. So as longer as any of the presentations are smaller than the available RAM, you can keep them all on the card.

On the down side, you have to put the card back in to get another presentation, but in most cases you only show one slide show for that event. But, even if you do run multiple presentations, the last image remains on the big screen even when the presenter is unpluged from the Palm. Presenter To Go keeps the image in the buffer and does not interrupt the signal to the VGA output unless it loses power. Getting another presentation from the card usually takes about 15 seconds.

Other than that, it works perfectly.

NO WAY!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:36:47 PM #
I was thinking the photos we saw of this a few weeks ago were a hoax. Palm are going to realise this Frankenstein thing. No virtual graffiti with a stupid folding part that looks like some 80s sci fi prop. Clie next I think, I will not be buying this as my os5 upgrade.
RE: NO WAY!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:26:12 PM #
I gotta say I was happy when
some1 said tungsten was not real.
Not because it had nothing to offer,
it does--there are some kool features.
However, it looked UGLY. And now since
this nightmare is back:( i will say again
UGLY^tm should have been its name.
Palm V/m5xx is the coolest looking form
factor, why not make one like that with os5?????????
???????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS love my m515

m5xx series is way better!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:01:38 PM #
Why not keep the same look of the current m5xx series with OS5? That is more executive looking for coporate. Perhaps any technical issues with the new processors caused the redesign? The classic V and m5xx case is the best design Palm has ever put out, too bad they were always expensive. Hope the m515 comes down in price before Xmas!
RE: m5xx series is way better!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:21:50 PM #
Don't you see - if they did keep the same form factor - palm might actually do well - however, doing so would directly violate its fundamental policy - file bankruptcy....
if palm and sony were humans - palm would need psychiatric evaluation just about now - with IV antipsychotics.
While sony would be sitting on a beach in the carribean with a bunch of hot swimsuit models.

RE: m5xx series is way better!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:21:50 PM #
Don't you see - if they did keep the same form factor - palm might actually do well - however, doing so would directly violate its fundamental policy - file bankruptcy....
if palm and sony were humans - palm would need psychiatric evaluation just about now - with IV antipsychotics.
While sony would be sitting on a beach in the carribean with a bunch of hot swimsuit models.

RE: m5xx series is way better!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:49:36 PM #
Yeah right, just stick with the old design and if they do, I know what YOU will say in 6 months "Palm are not inovative, like sony".
You freaks would complain about anything, as if PALM are going to read this and say " hey you know we spent all that money in design prototypes, and people opinions, and expert marketing people (who that is their job), but we better stick with the Vx form as I'm too scared to try anything new, people might laugh or even still post their objective opinion on a bill board.
Time will tell my friend. Time does a lot. Clei sounded poxy 24 months ago, but now it just sounds like another sony name.
I think you will find this will be very pocketable, which is important. How many people do you see pull their ipaq out of their shirt pocket, yes it probably happens, but you know what I'm getting at.
Palm Zire will have FAR FAR more success than the average person believes at the present. But in years to come I believe you will see why Palm has introduced this model, 2mb 2 buttons is not just for price!!
Palm have really done their research for this one. I can gaurantee this will be more popular than any sony PDA released to date! Any takers on a bet? Because you know palm will not stop supporting this model in 24 months. Palm handheld have an unsurpassed quality and support. If you buy one of these you can pretty well gaurantee you will not have the issues of a PDA from a company that just pumps them out and 6 months later, cracking hinges, memory stick failures.

BB

RE: m5xx series is way better!
big_raji @ 9/20/2002 7:51:04 PM #
If Palm kept the V/m5XX form factor, sales would suck.

Do yo know how many people I know own a Palm Vx, and still think their Palm is the latest and greatest?

They didn't upgrade to a Palm m5xx because they thought it was the same device at first glance.

This gives them a reason to upgrade.


---
What's Wrong With This Picture?
http://raj.phangureh.com/picture.html

Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 9:38:29 PM #
?
RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 10:34:40 PM #
Is Pinto Porsche killer?
RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:56:42 PM #
Crawl back under your rock Mr Pinto... you and your like are a WOFTAM!! (look it up moron)
RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:09:24 PM #
Ignoring the comment from the above WOTFAM (I love that name I have given to a few former clients), I do think it has serious potential to grab a good amount of the iPaq market. Here are a few comments on that:
* Since we are finally taking ARM and a DSP, the multimedia features here can now equal and surpass iPaq.
* Since PalmOS 5 is lot better designed OS and is now running on equal footing hardware as iPaq, the power of the OS will really come forth.
* The Pavlovian Windows users will refuse to use it since it isn't Microsoft. These are the same people that only bought IBM twenty years ago. They barely know the technology and are brand loyal due to their ignorance.
* The UI of PocketPC sucks and is not intuitive at all. The average consumer gets confused using a PocketPC within a minute. This has killed their market penetration.
* Within a year, the 10,000+ supported titles out there is going to offer app for PalmOS 5 that will totally surpass anything you can do on an iPaq due to sheer superior memory and thread management in the OS design.
* On a prima donna level, PalmOS 5 and 6 has John Louie Glasse's (ex Apple exec, founder of Be, Inc. and now CTO of PalmSource) in a position to compromise Bill Gates. It is payback time since Bill suppressed his the desktop BeOS.
* While there is a new generation of iPaq's coming out, there is not much change in them except ID and a slightly better battery life.
* These new iPaq's can run the ARM PalmOS with the right Device Abstraction Layer. Also, notice how the button layout of Tungsten have morphed into that is an iPaq. I don't think this is a coincidence.
* If Palm has the balls to do a "turn in you iPaq for a discount on the Palm Tungsten-T", they are going to clean up if they can take the repercussions of drawing that first blood.

Exciting times are ahead. Just the fact that there are so many posts here in a day tells me this is going to do very well.

RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:36:28 PM #
Everybody keep talking as if OS 5.0 is suporting code beyond ARM V4.1 (various differing multimedia extension from different chip company) can somebody confirm this please? How extensive does OS 5.0 support TI dsp, and Intel multimedia extension, or motorola dsp?

what is the criteria that OS 5.0 is better design than PPC or .net. for eg. 5.0 has an emulator layer, no multitasking, weak memory protection, carry over dragonball memory stucture legacy. etc.

can you confirm that iPAQ H500 is using PPC2002? (as you seems to imply saying not much change, instead of the new CE .net? Than you know more than average people outside the NDA community.)

Or is this all are just personal spin, a wishfull thinking, that Tungten is actually better, faster, cheaper than PPC?

RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:09:08 AM #
> for eg. 5.0 has an emulator layer, no multitasking, weak memory protection,
> carry over dragonball memory stucture legacy. etc.

Of course it has an emulator, how else would it run legacy apps? It supports multithreading, those APIs just aren't exposed yet. As far as "multitasking", there were already some things you could do in previous Palm OS versions. There's not much real multitasking that you want to do on a PDA anyhow. Memory protection, it's in there. There wasn't anything wrong with the dragonball memory structure.


There are lots of good things "under the hood" in OS 5 that we just aren't going to see right off.

RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:28:37 PM #
if you can't use it, might as well doesn't exist. Wouldn't it be just bloat? having codes inside a computer that you can't use?
RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:52:02 AM #
If anyting's an iPAQ killer it will be the new PPC units like the Zayo A600 which has some TRULY impressive specs:

Processor: Intel PXA-250 400MHz

Memory: 64MB SDRAM (256Mbit 16bit-width 100MHz SDRAM x2), 32MB Flash Rom

Display: 3.5 Reflective 320 x 240 16-bit Color-TFT (QVGA), 0.22 DPI

Audio: 3.5mm Stereo Mini Jack

Power Input AC100-240V, Output DC5V 2Amp 10Watts, Polymer Battery (1 cell, 3.6V, 1250mAh)

Size: 4.9 x 2.9 x .5in (125 x 75 x 12.8mm)

Weight: 4.9oz (140g)


Tungsten's not the only game in town -- and it's just the first -- Sony, HP, Toshiba, and many, many others are will be coming along shortly with THERIR new stuff as well.

RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:58:15 AM #
Palm IIIc: 6.8 oz.
M505-515: 4.8 oz.
Tungsten: 5.6 oz.

Zayo A600: 4.9 oz.

RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:58:37 PM #
How do you trust a company that used to make scooters to make your next pda?
RE: Is the Tungsten-T an Ipaq Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:45:07 PM #
Is the Zayo A600 made by palm too?

I've never heard of it.

palm's game-over?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:39:31 AM #
I am using Palm 505 and before PalmPilot Preofessional and Palm V in the past 5years. Although the design is different between 505 & V, users can hardly differentiate visually. I am tired of using such design form factor since looking at Sony's growth! And gradually disappointed with Palm's conservative development.
If such model - Tungsten T released, the major changes are faster speed, hi-res, wireless and sound capabilities etc. But now sony also has similar product T665 (except the built-in bluetooth). I believe i will use less in wireless function.
But the most disappointed are, the size is thicker and weight heavier. My main reason to choose Palm is the size and weight. Now the Tungsten hasn't such advantages. And i will wait a bit later to see Sony's new model. Or even choose Pocket PC!! (because PPC nowadays has slimmer version!!)

T size test!

mikecane @ 9/21/2002 2:22:05 AM #
If you click on the Homepage pic of the Palm Tung to get the larger picture and then PRINT it, it seems to me to be just about ACTUAL SIZE -- that is, IF that SD image is to scale. (I don't have an SD nearby.)

Thus, if you print and then cut the image out of the paper, you can get some idea of what the actual unit might be like in your hand. GEEZ! Those buttons are SMALL!!

RE: T size test!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:45:26 AM #
Actually, the Tungsten is about the size of a Palm IIIc - currently my friend. The buttons are about the same size as the IIIc buttons as well.
RE: T size test!
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 4:18:37 AM #
Palm Tung: 4.1 by 2.9 by .7 inches

Palm III: 4.7 x 3.2 x .7

RE: T size test!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 11:13:03 AM #
Palm m515:

Size 4.5" x 3.1" x .5"
Weight 4.9 oz.

from palm.com

RE: T size test!
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 5:16:49 PM #
You know, that Palm Tung vertical dimension -- there should be *two*, shouldn't there? "Crushed" and "uncrushed"? (I can't think of a better term at the monent... hmmmm, there's Palm's new ad slogan: "Get the Crush!")

RE: T size test!
bcombee @ 9/22/2002 1:28:14 AM #
I copied the image from geek.com, then resized it in an image editor so that the SD card was the same size as an SD card I happened to have lying around. When I compared the on-screen size to my trust CLIE T615C, it looks like the Tungsten T is slightly wider, but about half-an-inch shorter than the T615C with the buttons slid out. With the buttons slid into the device, it was much shorter, and I can see this actually being a fairly useful mode for game play and keyboard use.


--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

RE: T size test!
Ed @ 9/22/2002 10:23:32 AM #
> Palm Tung: 4.1 by 2.9 by .7 inches

Mike, where did these numbers come from? These can't be the number you got from measuring the image because you list a thickness. You didn't misread the article and use the one from the SJ series that I put in for comparison, did you? According to the info I have, the Tungsten T is 4 by 3 by .6 inches. 4.8 inches tall when open. I know the differences seem small but I think they are important.

---
News Editor

RE: T size test!
mikecane @ 9/24/2002 11:00:10 AM #
Ed: Someone had posted the Tung numbers in a prior msg. I just added the other dimensions to compare. I have no bloody idea how large/small the Tung is myself. That's why I've been asking.

My opinion:

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:47:34 AM #
I think this is an awesome move for Palm, despite what some think. I only have two gripes: The OS version number. From a developer standpoint, this IS version 5.0, but from a user stand point, it would be best labeled 4.5, since the user doesn't "see" many new features. Most of the new features are behind the scenes.
The price. Of course, no one likes the price. Is it worth $500? I don't know. I would like a test drive first. Do the components add up to $500? It is a close call on this one. Small, high res screens are expensive as well as ARM units with integrated DSP.

Things I do like:
The so-called "under powered," from some posters, ARM unit. This is supposedly twice as fast as a 66MHz Dragon ball. I have a 16MHz Dragonball, so the ARM unit is about 8 times faster.
SD expansion slot. It would be nice to have a CF slot, only because I primarily use CF, but oh well.
The "paltry" 16MB of memory. If you need more storage, then use the SD slot. That is what it is there for.
The high res screen. I like high res pictures.
The "disappearing" graffiti area. I actually have a reason to put the graffiti area away! I can map Easy-Calc to my memo pad button and then I do not need the graffiti area for my calculations.
I also don't think that the design is half bad.
The Bluetooth toy interests me. I would like to see what I can do with this in the future. Perhaps a wireless Hot Sync USB device?

RE: My opinion:
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:27:12 AM #
> The so-called "under powered," from some posters, ARM unit. This is supposedly twice as fast as a 66MHz Dragon ball.

Twice! think again...

A 175 MHZ OMAP ARM-925 benchmarks about 20 times faster than a 66 MHz DragonBall 68EC000 on optimized native code. It's the difference between a newer RISC implementation plus split I and D caches and a write buffer, versus an older two-level microcoded non-cached CISC implementation.

No phone...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 9:20:05 AM #
Tungsten (or equivelent device)+cell phone=the only machine I'll trade my IIIc up for.
RE: My opinion:
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 9:30:16 PM #
Ooops! My bad. 20 times faster, eh? Well, now I have ten times more reason to upgrade my IIIc! Now if I just had the cash...
RE: Sony wasn't not cooperating in any way
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 9:58:47 AM #
"RE: Sony wasn't not cooperating in any way"

Double negatives have never not confused me....

Weight is important too

Solo @ 9/21/2002 11:20:05 AM #
I bought a lot of Palm products over the years, and one thing I became concern with is weight... For me it is at least as important as the size.

When I upgraded from a Palm IIIc to a M505, I couldn't believed how the weight difference was important. I wouldn't be able to go back to a IIIc for even one day... just too heavy. It was breaking all the inside pockets of my jackets (where keep my PDA most of the time)

Now with Tungsten, I face a dilemna...

Palm IIIc: 6.8 oz.
M505-515: 4.8 oz.
Tungsten: 5.6 oz.

I also had a Palm IIIe, (which is about the same weight as T), and... going to heavier ?? mmmmmmm I dunno...

Guess I have still one month to make up my mind and try to find a 1X Bluetooth phone...Or simply wait for the Kyocera flip one.... or Sony's offering...

Like Hugh Heffner said after the release of Viagra: These are great times to live in !!!

Solo

RE: Weight is important too
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 11:37:00 PM #
Tungsten = "heavy stone"

Design not well worth the price

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:00:32 PM #
Seriously, it's worth to buy the NR70V than this piece of crap. At least Sony is innovating.... I mean why don't Palm actually integrate a virtual gravity instead of a "sliding" graffiti area?

Looks like a child's toy! And the design? Hope it's not plastic...

the M5xx is a better form factor....

RE: Design not well worth the price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:27:19 PM #
Simple, not many people wants that big of a view area on a handheld except power users. The sliding grafitti area is total design genius. There are a lot of apps out there were you don't need to write. Hell, put in the right voice recognition software as a thread on the ARM machine (yes, you can do that), and you will have your Palm take dictation! This device is going to clean up. Who cares about the thickness if it is so short when closed. This is an adult gameboy hidden as a serious PDA. It rocks!
RE: Design not well worth the price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:05:43 AM #
I think ALOT of people want the NR-70 screen, they simply want it CHEAP and in a form factor like that of the m5xx or T-615. The NR-70 is THE gadget device even when the Tungsten comes out -- camera, huge screen, etc. When Sony comes out with the NR90 then it will be THE gadget device.

Tungsten probably won't sell huge like the m5xx series due to the cost. They will have a stake in the high end now though -- Palm really left the high end after Sony arrrived on the scene and put out REALLY innovative Palm devices. Palm's simply catching up and it's now Sony's turn to blow them away again with another NR series masterpiece.

What if

peter167 @ 9/21/2002 12:54:17 PM #
What if I can buy a Toshiba e740 with built-in Wi-Fi and flashed it with the new Palm OS 5? It will be around the same cost yet I can 64MB Flash ROM and 64 MB RAM and Wi-Fi function.

I think Palm support the new Intel X-scale processors already.

That's what is true about people saying - Palm units are a little bit overpriced (at least for the contents of the hardware.) E.g. T665 has a mp3 player than an m515. The new sj20 has 8MB RAM more than a palm 500.
Same for the new sl-10 vs the m125.

******************
Lie is the future.

RE: What if
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 2:06:28 PM #
Palm OS doesn't have WiFi driver, support QVGA size, and CF/IO and support for 64 MB memory.
RE: What if
Ed @ 9/21/2002 2:54:11 PM #
> What if I can buy a Toshiba e740 with built-in Wi-Fi and flashed it with the new
> Palm OS 5? It will be around the same cost yet I can 64MB Flash ROM and
> 64 MB RAM and Wi-Fi function.

Peter, to use an analogy, this is like asking "Can I take the engine out of a Cadillac and put it in a Lexus?" Theoretically yes but only after a tremendous amount of work.

Sitting between the Palm OS and the hardware is a Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL). A HAL is sort of a translation layer that lets the OS know how to use the hardware. There is a great deal more to hardware support than just the processor, like the screen, memory card slots, and that sort of thing.

If a hobbyist want to run OS 5 on an e740, he would have to write his own HAL. This would be a serious undertaking, one better suited to a company with lots of resources.

---
News Editor

RE: What if
peter167 @ 9/22/2002 8:31:37 AM #
Anyways, it's just wishful thinking.

******************
Lie is the future.
RE: What if
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:19:05 AM #
> Palm OS doesn't have WiFi driver, support QVGA size,
> and CF/IO and support for 64 MB memory.

I think if you check Palm's OS 5 pages, you'll see WiFi support mentioned. 64MB is there. QVGA would be a little effort though as well as CF I/O (see HandEra for those).

RE: What if
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:15:39 PM #
One May Also Purchase A Laptop With All Those Things.

RE: What if
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:23:41 PM #
>>I think if you check Palm's OS 5 pages, you'll see WiFi support mentioned. 64MB is there. QVGA would be a little effort though as well as CF I/O (see HandEra for those).

Palm has a habit saying things that actually doesn't exist and guise it as "supported" whatever that means.

RE: What if
peter167 @ 9/22/2002 5:33:11 PM #
I hope Toshiba can become a licensee for Palm because the contents of the hardware and the price of its handhelds is impressive, even compared to Sony's.

******************
Lie is the future.
RE: What if
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:53:39 AM #
I agree. Toshiba are really making inroads on all fronts. I just bought a Toshiba flat screen Television. Component inputs, the works, for over $100 less than the comparable Sony model. Better sound as well. I've always preferred Toshiba laptops, especially over other models available at retail.


m515 vs. Tungsten

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:58:13 PM #
Palm m515:
Size 4.5" x 3.1" x .5"
Weight 4.9 oz.

Palm Tungsten:
4.1" x 2.9" x .7" (4.8" tall open)
Weight 5.6 oz.

Personally, I'll have to wait until I hold my Tung to truly know, but do you think the weight/size differential will bother anyone you?

I'm not a big fan of moving parts, either. What purpose does it really serve if it's not that much smaller in "closed mode" vs. m515?

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
mikecane @ 9/21/2002 5:18:14 PM #
Ah! I just posted about the Tung needing two vertical dimensions -- and there you have it! Thanks.

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 6:31:51 PM #
right except it .6 inches thick not .7 - not a big difference but when it comes to thickness its stick issue around these parts:)
RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 5:22:24 AM #
i find m515 WAY too heavy. tung is even heavier. no way.
RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
Ed @ 9/22/2002 10:09:09 AM #
> 4.1" x 2.9" x .7" (4.8" tall open)

You appear to have misread the article. Those are the dimensions for the SJ series, which I put in for reference. According to my source, the Tungsten T is 4 by 3 by .6 inches. 4.8 inches tall when open. I know the differences seem small but I think they are important.

> I'm not a big fan of moving parts, either. What purpose does it really
> serve if it's not that much smaller in "closed mode" vs. m515?

With the m515 being 4.5 inches and the Tungsten T being 4 inches, you get a size decrease of half an inch. I know that doesn't seem huge but it is significant in a device that is less than 5 inches tall.

---
News Editor

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:42:20 PM #
comparison between m515 and Zayo...

http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/zayo-review.html

Zayou would be the thinnest, smallest Xscale PPC. it's roughly the size of Sony T series.

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:49:13 PM #
>> Zayou would be the thinnest, smallest Xscale PPC. it's roughly the size of Sony T series.

Don't spout lies. The Zayo (which I have right here) is bulky, has no battery life and crashes like every other PPC. I'm hearing reports about an issue with the SD/MMC slot, and dust under the screen. Beware!!

Palm waited to go color, when the time was right. Now they have the true ARM pda.

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 4:28:28 PM #
ok because in your unpublished test it has no battery endurance and crash a lot hence make it not the thinnest and smallest Xscale PPC? (ok. I can almost see the logic here, help me out... )

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 6:31:22 PM #
OK - so this is it:

Palm m515:
4.5" x 3.1" x .5"
4.9 oz.

Palm Tungsten:
4" x 3" x .6" (4.8" tall open)
5.6 oz.

RE: m515 vs. Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 6:53:57 PM #
Zayo A600
4.9 x 2.9 x .5in
4.9oz

Sony N760
4.75 x 2.88 x 0.69
5.65oz

Sony T615
4.65 x 2.83 x 0.5
4.9 oz

How many steps?!

mikecane @ 9/21/2002 5:18:48 PM #
OK, I lambasted the Sony NR series for its design -- unfold, twist, re-fold. And that stylus at the bottom!

Now comes the Tung. So now we have these steps?

1) Flip the lid (if any)
2) Pull out stylus
3) Expand stylus (if it is indeed telescoping)
4) Pull down drawers of unit

-- and that's BEFORE it's been turned on!

Aren't some of these new designs actually getting in the way of quickly entering data?

RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 11:39:46 PM #
Jesus... you're talking like these steps take hours to accomplish.


RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:49:51 AM #
I would expect there are 2 ways to turn on the Palm Tungsten. First is the "old fashion" way with a button on top of the unit for use when you do not want Graffiti. The second way is you just slide the bottom down to access the graffiti area and it turns on. No other buttons need pushing then.

RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:00:05 AM #
Yes, but if you want to use your Palm 20 times again this rigmarole is going to get tiresome very quickly. I think I'll make up my mind about this when I see it in the stores. Just for now, though, I don't see this thing as a viable replacement for my m500.
RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:41:56 AM #
This is a silly discussion.

If im sitting in a meeting and i will have to refer to my NR70V about 10-15 times im not going to pull it out of my pocket, take it out of the case, pull out my stylus pen, switch from case mode to tablet mode and turn on the unit, input a sentence, turn it off switch from tablet mode to case mode, put away my stylus pen, put it back into the case then finally put it back into my pocket; then to have to repeat the process over again in a few seconds to input another sentence...

I'll just leave it in tablet form and leave it on the desk for the entire duration of the meeting...

jesus, lets think for a minute before we post silly things...

Then number of steps it takes you to make before you use your PDA is really a reflection of your intelligence....

RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:16:49 AM #
I agree that this discussion borders on the inane.

BTW, I would've posted sooner but I shut down my desktop computer last night so this morning I had to unbox the parts, remove the protective plastic wrap, set up the components on my desk and hook up all the cables. I'm really thinking of getting a laptop to avoid all of this inconvenience.

RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:41:00 PM #
LOL!

Don't bother- to type this up on my laptop, I had to pull out the carry bag, unfasten the strap, undo the flaps (2!), put the laptop on the desk, plug in the phoneline, open the top, push the resume button... what was I doing?

RE: How many steps?!
mikecane @ 9/24/2002 11:03:52 AM #
>This is a silly discussion.

>If im sitting in a meeting [snip]

Ah, are *you* Palm's idea of the "mobile worker"? Someone who moves his overfed carcass from his cubible to a meeting room? Some mobility! (Do people have to carry you?) *True* mobility workers have to pull the damned thing out while walking or talking on a phone. Before you gripe about true concerns, get a job where you won't put on such weight!

RE: How many steps?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 3:56:24 AM #
Mike, there is NO extra step of turning it on. Did you notice there is NO power button?

To turn on the T, you can either:

- slide the device open, or
- press the D-pad button.

Pressing any other button won't work, otherwise it will accidentally come on in your pocket or purse.

So if you are simply looking up a phone number or appointment, use the button. If you are planning to enter some text, slide it open!

To turn off, you can either:

- slide the device closed, or
- press and hold the D-pad button.

The slide option is user-configurable, i.e. you can opt for:
- do nothing when slide is opened, or
- turn on when slide is opened.
- do nothing when slide is closed, or
- turn off when slide is closed.

009

Reasons for European Users to Return to Palm from Sony

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:09:37 PM #
Don't get me wrong, when in November 2001 finally the "first" color Hi-Res Palm came to Europe (Clie N770C" I imediately sold my m505 and got one.

Could I ever know, that the European Market is that less interesting for Sony than the american or the japanes one?

I could get a folding keyboard from the first introduction day of my m505. In Europe you could never buy the keyboard for the n770. US Webshops didn't deliver to europe the keyboard of the n710/n760.

The bluetooth connector which intelligently lets you use the memory-stick together with bluetooth, was never delivered outside japan.

The bluetoot memory-stick was delivered to europe this week, which means about at least 6 month's later than palm's bluetoot-sd-card.

Last but not least, European Sony service is really bad comparing to palm. When my m505 encountered battery charging problems after 24 hours I got a new one (they had no refurbished ones at that moment). Now my n770 went into repair, because of contact problems with the hot sync-connector, but what told sony to me: They don't have refurbished modells (in europe) to do an exchange as palm inc. has. I have no palm for 10 days at least! (I currently print Outlook-Calendar-Sheets). If they find no problem (they found it normal that i have to shake the device on the hotsync connector about 20 times before it hotsyncs) they will charge me 119 Euros (about 119 USD) and that within the warranty time!

As Palm Inc. now has hi-res too, I will return to a good company as soon as possible.

RE: Reasons for European Users to Return to Palm from Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:54:54 PM #
That's because very few people consider the European market worth anything, sadly, and add that with the constant Sony-Shift(TM) of product design, making new accessories would probably sell all of 10 keyboards a year... well, maybe not that little... let's hope Palm stays with there launch speed of devices.
RE: Reasons for European Users to Return to Palm from Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 6:08:17 PM #
You're right. But not only europe is of less interest for sony. In japan they sell mobile communication-sleds for the T-Series. Nothing of that in the US.

To be honest, I don't think palm inc. will take pace with sony's innovations. But before I choose again a sony I will check If they changed thery service-conditions. Giving away your palm for so long is really a mess.

Weeeeeeeeeee!!!

james_sorenson @ 9/21/2002 5:10:53 PM #
Never has a new Palm device generated so many vehemently opposing comments! Slider rocks! Slider sucks! Finally has Bluetooth! Who the hell wants Bluetooth! D-Pad, Jogger, and Stylus, oh my!

Not even the Handspring Treo generated this much traffic. Love it or hate, this bad boy is becoming well known in the news. I'm more interested in the Tungsten W, but it's refreshing to finally see Palm heat up the Rumor Mills again. I was starting to get tired of hearing nothing but Sony equipment.

I think this device will probably do rather well. A lot of PalmOS people want a taste of the Arm processor, and the built-in bluetooth, hi-res screen, and memory expansion make it decent. Maybe this will have enough power to emulate the HP48 calculator? I've put enough money into 1st-generation devices that I think I will let the OS 5 revolution sink in a little (How much does my VisorPhone cost now? Geez....)

However, if I did get it, the first thing I'd do is find a way to lock the graffiti area open. Fumbling with a slide is just begging for pinched skin or a dropped Palm.

Jim

-------
James Sorenson

RE: Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:06:47 PM #
what about newpen ?
RE: Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:37:43 PM #
> "Fumbling with a slide is just begging for pinched skin or a dropped Palm."

I guess they should also get rid of zippers on pants, in case you get your fingers or other sensitive things caught in there. :)

> " Never has a new Palm device generated so many vehemently opposing comments!"

Never have I seen so much whining! I mean, the device is not perfect for me, but I like it, except the price.

I swear, if I see one more person who says they want Palm to innovate, I am going to lose it! :D I mean, you never hear this with desktop computers, but everyone wants innovation with a PDA. Yeah, give us innovation like that useless camera on the NR70!

Gordon

RE: Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:24:20 AM #
"I mean, you never hear this with desktop computers, but everyone wants innovation with a PDA."

we hear that from Mac users alot, and from Bill Gates alot too, he love to emphasis how his company innovates (copies).so yes innovation is important, otherwise we'll be stucked with something like Palm OS 2 or 3 for the rest of our life, the only thing chnaged from Palmpilot 1000 to Palm Vx is probably the size and memory. so yes Palm INC has stopped innovating since they released Palmpilot 1000

RE: Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 3:50:50 AM #
Are you sure you want to leave the graffiti area locked in the "open" position? How do you plan to turn off the power of your device? Are you planning to always rely on the auto-off mode?

Did you know that to turn on the T, you can either:

- slide the device open, or
- press the D-pad button?

Pressing any other button won't work, otherwise it will accidentally come on in your pocket or purse.

To turn off, you can either:

- slide the device closed, or
- press and hold the D-pad button.

The slide option is user-configurable, i.e. you can opt for:
- do nothing when slide is opened, or
- turn on when slide is opened.
- do nothing when slide is closed, or
- turn off when slide is closed.

008

Battery Life?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:39:44 PM #
So any idea how this unit's battery life compares to say a NR-70?

Does Palm OS 5 have any advantages in terms of batter consumption programs?

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:41:11 PM #
NR-70 ??

Compared to an NR-70 my friend, this will s*** all over it and I dont even know the stats. That is no comparrison, most Palm users are use to and would like something near the m505, m515 sort of range. I believe this is one reason why it has such low RAM and possibly uses other memory more efficietly, maybe more usable flash ram, whatever.

But my uneducated guess is definitely a noticable increase than an NR-70 if that is what you are use to.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 11:31:56 PM #
Battery life will be measured in months again, trust me.
RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 4:53:11 AM #
"most Palm users are use to and would like something near the m505, m515 sort of range"

It amazes me that someone who has probably only had one Palm unit in their life can speak for "most Palm users" and what they want.

Although I admit that batterylife of palm units are noticably better then Clies' there is a tradeoff. Personally i would rather have Sony's screens than Palms batteries. Palm certainly has the ability to put a hi-res or double density screen on their units but they know that it comes with a sacrifice in batterylife. Sony however with their famous stamina lithium batteries are able to use magnificant screens without too much sacrifice in batterylife and size.

If you think there are many reactions about this unit just wait until Sony announces their own OS5 unit

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:23:13 AM #
"Battery life will be measured in months again, trust me."

Is this a joke? They dont have capabilities to have battery life that long yet. If you want credability get a username.

RE: Battery Life?
newton @ 9/22/2002 11:24:40 AM #
Tunsten T's contraction mechanism for the hiding the input area is a pure gimmick with bad side effects: 1) it will consume more precious power which could be used for more RAM configuration instead.2) adding more unexpected mechanical failure 3) with only 5% shorter of length to trade with much thicker in thickness, bad deal.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:57:47 PM #
>>1) it will consume more precious power which could be used for more RAM configuration instead.

How on earth will a mechanical sliding area consume more power? Its not automated: the user pulls it open (more HUMAN power - yes).

>>3) with only 5% shorter of length to trade with much thicker in thickness, bad deal.

It is 4 inches closed and 4.8 inches open - thats 16.7% shorter - not 5%.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 6:32:03 PM #
"Personally i would rather have Sony's screens than Palms batteries"

So there you go, you are a sony user or preferer. Like I said most Palm users would preferr something like m505 battery life. I have had one of every Palm released upto the Vx and then stuck with the Vx form factor - hence m505, m515, and most people at work use Palms, where the ones using WinCE are complementing the Palm on battery life continuously.

BUT you are totally correct. Its personal opinion, you prefer a big screen, I prefer battery life.

RE: Battery Life?
IanJD @ 9/22/2002 8:11:41 PM #
"Compared to an NR-70 my friend, this will s*** all over it and I dont even know the stats. That is no comparrison, most Palm users are use to and would like something near the m505, m515 sort of range. "

The NR70 and m515/m505 battery lifetimes are comparable, ranging from 3 hours to 6 hours, depending on back/sidelight brightness.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 10:46:49 PM #
>How on earth will a mechanical sliding area consume more power? Its not automated: the user pulls it open (more HUMAN power - yes).

Mechanical slide with electric contacts on it to ensure the functional buttons and other components in touch. The signals will take more power to get over the hill of poor contacts.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:23:43 PM #
> 4.1" x 2.9" x .7" (4.8" tall open)

Didn't anyone READ the article? Those aren't the dimensions for the Tungsten T. Those aren't the dimensions for the Tungsten T. Do I need to say it again? THOSE AREN'T THE DIMENSIONS FOR THE TUNGSTEN T.

The Tungsten T is 4" x 3" x .6", as it clearly says in the article. At least you got the 4.8" part right.

p.s. Sorry if I'm over-reacting. I think mikecane started this and no-one reads the corrections later.

p.p.s What does this have to do with battery life?

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:33:41 PM #
> The NR70 and m515/m505 battery lifetimes are comparable, ranging from
> 3 hours to 6 hours, depending on back/sidelight brightness.

Sorry Ian, this is so obviously incorrect I couldn't let it pass. You are partially correct, the battery life for the NR70/V does range from 3 to 6 hours but the m505's (with a non-adjustable backlight) is at least 12 hours. The m515 ranges from 6 to 12 hours, depending on backlight setting. The NR70/V is loaded with features but you are kidding yourself if you don't realize it comes at the expense of battery life.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:41:48 AM #
I agree with the last post. There is no way an NR series would have the same batterylife as an m500 series unit. No matter what light setting i would say the m500 series would out live the NR by a ratio of 2 to 1.

By the way i love my NR70v

RE: Battery Life?
IanJD @ 9/23/2002 7:38:10 AM #
Not sure what battery they're installing in overseas models, but in a continuous drain test, my EFIGS m515 lasted 216 minutes at full backlight, 366 at minimum. My m505 lasted 321 mins with backlight on. Minimum and maximum figures on my UK NR70V were 197 minutes and 340 minutes.

You might argue that a continuous drain test isn't representative of a normal usage pattern, but it is equally unfair on all the units.

RE: Battery Life?
IanJD @ 9/23/2002 8:07:49 AM #
BTW the Palminfocenter review of the m505 gave a battery life of about 7 hours, how on earth are you getting "at least 12"? That's more in the regime of life with the backlight off.

www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=1905

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:49:57 AM #
Wouldn't it be cool if they hooked the sliding mechanism to some kind of generator to charge the batteries? Low battery? No problem!
RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:11:07 PM #
Sonys have the best battery life of any product and that's a well known FACT. Deal with it.
Get a Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:15:47 PM #
Sonys have the WORST battery life of any product and that's a well known FACT. Deal with it.

The NR70V and T665 are way cool handheld but their battery lives stink. I think you are some kind of wierd-o Sony fanatic. Or a high school kid. Or both.

RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:37:12 PM #
LoL .. if you look at sony's low end (those that works just like Palm's high to low end device), you'll see that their battery life is actually the same, with Clie having a little bit more bundled software.
RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:00:07 PM #
The Toshiba E310 runs circles around palm and sony when it comes to battery life. PPC is better in that respect.
RE: Battery Life?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:07:18 PM #
Stop kidding yourself. The e310 has an excellent battery life for a Pocket PC model. This makes it comparable to Palm or Sony but not superior.

> PPC is better in that respect.

This would be funny if I didn't think you really believed it. Batteruy life and size are the two worst things about Pocket PC.

RE: Battery Life?
mikecane @ 9/24/2002 11:07:10 AM #
>>p.s. Sorry if I'm over-reacting. I think mikecane started this and no-one reads the corrections later.

I didn't start this. Someone posted dimensions in a very early message and all I did was copy them to another message and compare them to another PDA's dimensions. Then, later on, several other people posted contradictory dimensions. So: WHAT THE HELL ARE THE TRUE DIMENSIONS? Standing *and* squatting?

And has anyone yet said *what* the hell the squatting is *for*? Just because the designers could *do* it? What actual *functionality* does it add? I don't see any. (Unless Palm thinks as an MP3 player it should be tiny and, say, be used with an armband -- but even that is too slim to believe...)

A built-in camera would be nice!!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:16:43 PM #
I think Palm should also carry a version of this PDA with a built-in camera.
RE: A built-in camera would be nice!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:46:35 PM #
This is not the NR70v for God's sakes...
RE: A built-in camera would be nice!!!
TDS Computer @ 9/22/2002 4:24:03 PM #
Do anyone really use their built in camera as anything more than a novelty item to show off to friends? I occasionally use my eyemodule for business, but I find the quality so poor, it is hardly woth the effort. Any better luck with other cameras for PDA's? And if not, is it worth it to add the weight of a non-removable built in one?

Now a built in tooth pick dispenser... That would be useful... :)


Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com

RE: A built-in camera would be nice!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:33:08 PM #
To the contrary, I've relied on built-in or add-on cameras to help me in networking for business since the early Kodak PalmPix prototypes in 1996. Since then, I've had PalmPix, Eyemodule and built-in Sony cameras to assist me in maintaining my business network of over 4,000 contacts. When your primary mode of communication is e-mail, it's mighty useful to have a picture next to a contact's name for the odd run-in when you suspect they're at the same coctail party and haven't seen them in a year or so!
RE: A built-in camera would be nice!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:57:22 PM #
And I ALWAYS pull out my PDA and scroll through the address book pictures when I meet people at cocktail parties, just in case...

RE: A built-in camera would be nice!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:04:47 PM #
The Sony NR70V has had all these features and you can get one on the cheap since they've been discontinued. I highly recommend the Sony since it has all the features you'll ever want.

P.S. I use my NR70 and camera to keep track of all my fish. I have two huge tanks and many varities. the camera feature on the NR70V comes in real handy.

RE: A built-in camera would be nice!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:27:21 PM #
FISH??

Are you for real?

NR70 Same price

epall @ 9/22/2002 12:58:08 PM #
Why not get an NR70? It's the same price, out now, actual keyboard, hi-res+ screen, etc.

RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 2:09:07 PM #
It's discontinued, therefore obsolete. Remember?
RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 3:17:05 PM #
cause it runs OS4.1, this will be OS5 and have built in bluetooth.
RE: NR70 Same price
IanJD @ 9/22/2002 4:13:34 PM #
Sure, but most of the new stuff that OS5 brings in, multimedia, MP3, hi-res, is already in the NR70/V, though built-in bluetooth would be nice. Speaking as someone who's owned and liked a number of Palms and a Clie, this doesn't offer enough to upgrade from the high end Clies.

RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 4:50:21 PM #
Your all forgeting the Mhz in the tungsten and the Dpad that the nr 70 doesn't have
RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 4:58:45 PM #
Plus, how are you going to upgrade your Sony to OS 6?
RE: NR70 Same price
IanJD @ 9/22/2002 5:09:14 PM #
Where are the programs that need extra "MHz"? You'll save a couple of seconds drawing a pie chart, and games will get better eventually, nothing too exciting yet.

Similarly, what programs support the D-PAD? Spreadsheets and browsers, and of course games will find it useful once they've been revised, but is it a good reason to buy a new PDA?

"Plus, how are you going to upgrade your Sony to OS 6?"

Don't recall saying I could; this was a comparison between currently available software/hardware; my point being that this doesn't offer anything to put it head and shoulders above currently available Palmpowered PDAs. Whenever OS5.5 or OS6.0 comes out, we should be looking at a new Palm, and if it doesn't come with more memory and virtual graffiti it's still going to be hard to sell it to high end users.

RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:52:16 AM #
Right, because you bought your NR70V when ALL the programs were supporting Hi-Res+? I'm sure.
RE: NR70 Same price
IanJD @ 9/23/2002 6:36:11 AM #
Actually, I waited the few weeks it took for my chief apps like Wordsmith and Quicksheet to be upgraded, but if it's a toss-up between a PDA with a joypad and a faster processor and one with 50% more screen real estate, I'll wait until I need the extra "MHz".

When processor-hungry worthwhile apps come along, maybe that'll change; but things like Flash and movie players that need the power are going to benefit from a non-square screen.

RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:33:20 PM #
Clearly the Sony NR70 is superior to this new Tung from Palm. The huge screen alone should make the choice obvious. Go with Sony all the way.
RE: NR70 Same price
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:30:16 PM #
Not everyone wants a Sony. For starters, it uses the useless memorystick which you can only stick into a useless sony product.

At least palm is trying to set and follow some industry wide standards such as SD/IO, 320X320, bluetooth and so on.

Give up on the Sony vs. Palm debate and GROW up.

RE: NR70 Same price
IanJD @ 9/24/2002 5:45:35 AM #
"Not everyone wants a Sony. For starters, it uses the useless memorystick which you can only stick into a useless sony product."

I'm sorry, were you the one asking folk to "GROW up."?

Can't say I've really got strong opinions on memory card formats; Mem sticks are quite a bit cheaper than SD/MMC, but I'd bet most people using a memory card for their PDA is using it *just* for their PDA, so the exclusivity of the format is something of a moot point. If you want a standard, CF is faster and cheaper, though size leaves something to be desired.

"At least palm is trying to set and follow some industry wide standards such as SD/IO, 320X320, bluetooth and so on."

All in favour of making built-in bluetooth a standard PDA feature, it should be cheap enough now, but Palm have hardly included it across their range, and aren't even the first PDA manufacturer to do it. Likewise with 320x320 and SD/MMC.

Tungsten in swedish

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 4:07:28 PM #
"Tung Sten" are two swedish words meaning "Heavy Rock" or "Heavy Stone"...
Amusing, this is!
RE: Tungsten in swedish
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 6:32:58 PM #
And I hope Palm is not tying it around their neck!
RE: Tungsten in swedish
Token User @ 9/22/2002 8:11:54 PM #
And I hope Palm is not tying it around their neck!

That was the albatross ... and he is no longer on the board.

RE: Tungsten in swedish
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 8:22:43 PM #
ever hear of the millstone around the neck?

Tungsten Accessories on PriceGrabber

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:15:14 AM #
If you do a search on PriceGrabber for Palm Tungsten, two cases and a pack of Stylus show up, but with no availability anywhere though.


RE: Tungsten Accessories on PriceGrabber
Ricky @ 9/30/2002 7:39:16 PM #
If you search on JandR, the keyboard also comes up.

Other Important Designs

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:51:23 AM #
can anyone tell or guess that where is the location of the headphone jack (top/side/bottom?), microphone, power button, stylus and also the flip cover??
all these things can severely affect the overall design!!
RE: Tungsten has NO power button!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 9:54:19 PM #
Did you notice there is NO power button?

To turn on the T, you can either:

- slide the device open, or
- press the D-pad button.

Pressing any other button won't work, otherwise it will accidentally come on in your pocket or purse. That's why there is also no flip cover.

If you are just going to look up a phone number or appointment, simply use the D-pad button. If you are planning to enter some text and need the graffiti area, slide it open!

To turn off, you can either:

- slide the device closed, or
- press and hold the D-pad button.

The slide option is user-configurable, i.e. you can opt for:

- do nothing when slide is opened, or
- turn on when slide is opened.

- do nothing when slide is closed, or
- turn off when slide is closed.

010

RE: Other Important Designs
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 10:00:45 PM #
1. what if the d-pad gets pressed while in pocket/purse? won't that turn the T on and thus drain battery?

2. How do we look up a contact/event with just the d-pad? seems tedious to have to scroll through to get to Mr. "Zimmerman" from the beginning. Seems to be a bit*ch to have to pull apart each time.

3. No Cover? What protects the screen?

Are you just trying to blow smoke up our azz?

Is Tungsten the new product name?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:06:04 PM #
The Tungsten?Mobile Information Management Solution is showing at the frontpage of Palm.com now.

But it doesn't seem to be related to the new OS 5 device...

RE: Is Tungsten the new product name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:22:29 PM #

So, will we ever see any decent PDA/phones for CDMA??

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:00:43 PM #
Ho Hum...
Another GPRS/GSM model -- and the pda/phone selections for those networks become more and more crowded.

Meanwhile the pda/phone selection for CDMA is practically non-existent -- unless you want to get the outrageously priced Thera or go with a TREO on Sprint's crappy coverage.

You can argue all you want about which is better, GSM or CDMA, but the fact is -- Verizon has the best coverage nationwide (no, I don't work for them) and the crappiest selection of phones of all.

Am I the only one who feels this way and is everyone else satisfied with the lousy network coverage of Cingular, VoiceStream, T-Mobile, Sprint -- just so they
can get the cool pda/phones??

RE: So, will we ever see any decent PDA/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:14:56 PM #
"lousy network coverage of Cingular..."

What are you talking about? Are you crazy? Cingular has the most reliable ------ that there ---! Why, just ----- last week --- had a ---- that did not drop out!

RE: So, will we ever see any decent PDA/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:19:50 PM #
LOL -- exactly!!!
RE: So, will we ever see any decent PDA/phones for CDMA??
quake97 @ 9/26/2002 2:43:53 PM #
The future is GSM/GPRS. AT&T, Cingular and Verizon are already starting to switch their networks. The rest of the world uses GSM and its far superior.

Joe

palm

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:23:00 AM #
I love it and can't wait to get one. when it will be in the market???
RE: palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:19:18 AM #
Read the article! October 28
RE: palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 1:52:03 AM #
i love new handhelds. no matter what price it's. but i love sony better than palm because sony has been moving fester. palm just a bit old.

The Big T known as Tungsten T

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 3:11:23 PM #
Hey palm, can't wait until you start selling The big T.
my whole family is laughing. I looked at a sony and it had too many keys, that i really dont need. Memory i need, better screen i need, and a sound enhancement.
The big T has this all, and speed to boot. Its about time you show what PDA's are all about. Palm has led the way and still is the leader of OS that i have all ways trusted.
RE: The Big T known as Tungsten T
andrewholler @ 1/17/2003 12:03:03 PM #
The Big T? The TT is a good enough name. Acronyms are easier to say for lazy ppl like me

Cases

Ricky @ 9/30/2002 7:42:30 PM #
I'm surprised nobody brought this up before, but how would you go about creating a case for this thing? Although several retailers currently carry both a hard and a soft case in their inventory systems, they have no info on them. Assuming that the cases are the size of the TT closed, would you have to take it out of the case in order to use Graffiti, or does the case somehow expand?

file transfer

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:34:06 PM #
I love the way the CLIEs mount as a removable hard drive through audioplayer or msmount.
It is oddly much faster too to transfer files to the mem stick by mounting as a drive than by the normal hotsyncing process.

I was shocked to see that I could drag a 5MB mp3 to the clie-mounted mem stick and it would transfer in about 5 seconds.

I hope the tungsten follows this example.


polyphonic sound

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:36:51 PM #
does anyone know for sure:

will the tung use the same fm synthesis pcm wave playback as the clies? will polyphonic and voice alarms play, and play loudly?

won't even touch the mp3 debate, but do hope for playback of 320x320 video with good quality sound as well as kinoma player does on the clies.

BUILT-IN MICROPHONE AND SPEAKER?

michael828 @ 10/5/2002 10:07:08 AM #
Is palm planning to produce a phone module that will be attach to the tungsten to make it a smartphone.

What is the purpose of the buit in microphone and speaker? it also has buit in GPRS.



RE: BUILT-IN MICROPHONE AND SPEAKER?
quake97 @ 10/9/2002 1:28:22 PM #
I doubt they'll do that. Palm is supposed to release a SmartPhone called the Tungsten W.

Joe

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