Comments on: Rumor: Picture of the Tungsten T

strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

People here insult products without trying them.

It is not fair to Palm to insult the product when you haven't tried it. For some people this IS the perfect product, others desire something different. I know many people who don't need any MHZ, Color screens, etc

Most need a Palm V with it's organization abilities, and some of the basic apps. This is why Palm is loosing market share. I know 20 people who have a Palm V and it works perfectly and probably won't change handhelds for a while.

Please don't insult a handheld by saying: Another stupid handheld by Palm. Justify by saying why you would ever need more than 175 mhz or more than a 320x320 screen. Remember this is a PDA not a computer. If you need something to do computer like functions get a laptop.

Onto real matters... is anyone concerned about that lower part sliding down and wearing out as folks rest their hand on it to write in the grafitti area? Unlike a keyboard being in the uncovered area that would require now hand resting as you thumb type. By the way... I don't like the keyboards, just a thought on why one slide works and another doesn't last.

Hmmm... that may come across negative, then I would be here 'trolling'. How about...

I love the way the lower area slides down to rest my hand on it when writing. Palm has thought of everything. As the lower part loosens and gives me plenty or warning that it is about to break, I will alter my writing style and thus be a better person. Cool!!

A good response is: I'm glad that Palm will come out with a Palm OS 5 handheld finally.

Critisicims are fine but sometimes people write: Palm is dead, Sony Rules, This is What will kill Sony... Don't do that!

Some people here are afraid to make observations and express opinions before the product is released ("Don't knock it till you try it"[in voice of snotty second grader}) Well, thats fine for some "box thinkers...lets call them Zire users" If we can't go to Best Buy and play with it the least you can let us do is talk about it! So, yes I think the sliding grafitti cover is a bad move and will probably break or wear out with alot of use. This first model is a nogo for my dollar but I am anxious for the next round!

With that logic, you better not step into your car. It has lots of moving parts-some of which are plastic. Laptops have moving parts. Cell phones have plastic moving parts. Treos have moving parts. Your place of dwelling has many moving parts. Its time I and many others make the jump to a significantly better device. If you listen to these "wait and see people", you will be waiting forever. I work in marketing and that is one of the arguments you use in order to delay the use of a new product. "Don't you be the first to try out this thing, let someone else do it; however, when I come out with MY product, I want you to jump right on it".

That is a good philosophy when gathering information about a device in a competitive market. Positive comments are probably true, but doubt the negative chatter - chances are good you are not getting the straight story. You can quickly check it out yourself.
If I were competing with a new device, you can bet your home that I would be posting "seeds of doubt" on this web site.

Dan

With that logic, you better not step into your car. It has lots of moving parts-some of which are plastic. Laptops have moving parts. Cell phones have plastic moving parts. Treos have moving parts. Your place of dwelling has many moving parts.

GUESS WHAT PAL...MY CAR DOES BREAK!...HOME DEPOT GETS MY EXTRA CASH FIXING BROKEN THINGS AROUND THE HOUSE...ETC. SO I DON'T REALLY WANT A $500 PALM THAT HAS MOVING PARTS -I-S- GOING TO BREAK SOONER RATHER THAN LATER! ENOUGH WITH THE SLIDY FLIPPY CRAP ALREADY! _T_H_I_N_AND SOLID!

Guess what PAL...... Whatever device you buy will have moving parts....Buttons, Maybe hinges,etc. If you don't like that, good luck trying to find a pda that DOESN'T have moving parts. It (Tungsten)still is thin and solid. By the way.........our STUFF(cars,etc)break too!!! Maybe you need to buy a Pocket PC PDA? Or do you have one already??

The worst stylus belongs to the Sharp Linuxed Zaurus. It is a fat stub. Maybe this one will be like that too.

Battery life matters more to me. I'm hoping palm continues its tradition of having long battery lives on all its models.

Probably, but you never know. This model is only 0.4" smaller than (for example) the m515. How much of the stylus could they possibly shorten it? But, since this is thicker than the m515, could it be that the stylus is also thicker as well?

: -- and, since Sony's people designed this, why not just
: "standardize" the styluses between them?

Well, I don't know if it was specifically stated that they were the _only_ ones to work on the design. I think it was mentioned that they helped work on it, but not design it completely themselves.

You're right, though, we'll have to just wait and see. Can't wait to see other company's first OS5 offerings.

Exciting. :)

Jim

I am betting that the expertise the ex-Sony engineers supplied went into the electronics, rather than the industrial design.

IDEO (www.ideo.com) are a great industrial design shop that worked on the Palm V series, and the Treo for Handspring (among others visit the site - esp if you are a student of HCI/CHI or Industrial Design). Makes you wonder if they had a hand in this one as well.

I guess it was the line "In an interesting side note, Bradley said designers from Sony worked on this model." (taken From yesterday's PIC article www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=4188) which may have confused me within the context that it was used. The line followed immediately after explaining the design of the case, not the internal bits.

Oh well. Regardless, I can't wait for October if only to see this thing in action and to test it with my own hands.

Jim

As for a prior msg stating that IDEO worked on the Visors -- I'd be shocked if that was true. I read the book from IDEO's Chief -- no mention of the Visor, but the Palm V is detailed.

According to IDEO's web site, the firm designed all of Handspring's core products:
www.ideo.com/portfolio/list.asp?p=&c=Handspring&k=&s=&so=4

First, to Ed: Sorry for the Sony misunderstanding!

Second, to the prior poster, thanks for the tip about the website. I never thought to check there. Geez, they really did HS's stuff? Maybe HS should have used frogdesign -- or maybe IDEO they passed off the work to some new hires who were designers from the former East Germany... they all lack the Palm V stylishness.

For most other pda uses the hard graffitti area is always being used, especially on the palm operating system which was desgined around the graffitti input area.

Image viewers
Web clip viewers
Memo pads
Handwritten note pads
File managers

Your point about apps requiring entry is a good one though. It's hard to write a memo or enter into a spreadsheet without graffiti unless you have a separate keyboard like the NR. But for viewers of all kinds, the extra screen real estate is great, so hopefully virtual graffiti will become a new standard, giving everyone the option of which setting they like better.

OK, in 1995 it was fine and dandy. Its now 2002, almost 2003. Time to move on. Just because Graffiti works for some people doesn't make it easy. If you could just write words on the screen in your own handwriting and have them converted to text, wouldn't you agree that would be easier?

As for the comment about "those who want to read ebooks, buy an ebook reader" that's just dumb. There wouldn't even be an ebook market if it weren't for Palm, and the Palm -- even the original screen, works just fine for ebooks. I'd even say that there's little advantage for [other PDAs] or Sony's larger screens when it comes to ebooks. So, when I buy this Palm, I WILL be buying an ebook reader.

Personally, I think that the slide out screen is silly. It adds to the thickness of the unit and makes it more cumbersome to use. I hate to think what will happen when dust and lint get in between the sliding parts. The NR70 series shows that moving parts on handhelds are not robust enough to deal with day to day use - Palm should learn from the mistakes of others; rather than trying to copy them.

If Palm thinks it can win market share by trying to outdo the latest gimmick offered by other manufacturers, then maybe they have really lost their way after all.

Oh well, better luck next time...

The m515 is .5 inches thick - the Tungsten T is .6 inches thick. Not really much of a difference. Besides - the m515 is 4.5 x 3.1 inches while this is 4 x 3 inches (4.8 inches with graffiti open).

How exactly have they shown this? Myself and most NR users that I talk to think that the NR is holding up just fine, no problems at all with moving parts.

I love the NR70!! But to say that Sony hasn't had it's share of problems. Just look at the fact that they are talking about not using that design any more. Too expensive to build? Maybe, Sony doesn't normally shy away from expense though. Magnesium versus plastic.

Palm simply cannot let go of the old tech -- hard grafitti which NO ONE uses anymore if they can avoid it and a teeny tiny square screen. Only the low-end garbage will use this on Sony devices and Handera woke up a long, long, time ago about the waste of space graffiti silkscreen. When Palm figures out 320 x 480, I'll seriously consider looking at one of their devices.

I hope Sony makes an OS 5 version of the NR70. Aside from the lack of a d pad (yes, I want it for games!) it's perfect for me.

I don't see why the stylus needs to be short. Sony fits a full length one in the SJ-series and it is the same length.

PPC's with built in wi-fi have terrible battery lives. Plus they cost $700.

Wait and see what HandEra does with OS 5. I expect them to have a CF slot.

It's saying that 802.11 doesn't support voice right aways (needs voice-over-IP to support voice communication), that it's not low power, 2 expensive, chipset is to big etc.

By the way....the e740 runs less then 2 hours with integrated 802.11 (see Dale Coffing's review at PPCPassion) ;o)

Actually I'm not even sure about the first two, I find I prefer 802.11b on my HandEra for updating (hotsyncing when I'm in another room or on another floor), and printing (to a shared network printer that's in another room).

For me, that would make the Palm the ultimate device. I'll wait.

For me, that would make the Palm the ultimate device. I'll wait."

--------

Sounds great. You can file this under "wouldn't it be great if....".

1. 802.11b is already (or will be) the facto standard in NETWORKING.
2. If you make 802.11b faster (TI has done such thing with there ACX100 802.11 technology and makes 802.11b run 22Mbps) then the battery will drain even more then it is now.
3. Greater distance is possible i think. But it has to come from somewhere if you know what i mean.
4. Both 802.11a (is here today and in reality 22mbps-54mbps) and 802.11g (coming, backward compatable with 802.11b, not yet aproved by the FCC) drain even more battery then 802.11b
5. There will never be AN ultimate device imho.

The 802.11 Alphabet Soup
http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/buyersguide/article.php/1440011 (Geier is the man to beat here....)

Dual mode chipsets (e.g Bluetooth-802.11a/b/g) are the way to go imho. There will be....patience.

So yes, range has to come from somewhere, It'd just be nice if both camps remembered that.

802.11/wifi's real weakness is bandwidth - not its maximum capacity of 11Mbits/sec (really only 6Mbits/sec after protocol overhead is subtracted, which is still relatively high), but the limited amount of radio spectrum in which it operates. the system uses the 2.4GHz band, which in the United States has room for three separate non-overlapping 802.11b channels. some other countries have room for four, but the Wi-Fi standard is based on the FCC's restrictions, so they're also limited to three. So 802.11 potential stumbling block could be the limited number of channels available in the 2.4 GHz band used by WLANs. With only three channels available, WLANs in close proximity must share bandwidth, shrinking the available pipe for each user.

A Report on Wireless Networking by Consulting firm IpEverywhere, shows gaping security holes in hundreds of wireless networks throughout the downtown core, including many in the financial district and some government and university areas. About 75 per cent of the more than 1,000 downtown wireless networks it has detected so far have no evidence of security and leave organizations wide open to information theft, data destruction, networking spamming and other cyber attacks.

more
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=41543

To expand on this a little more, with the Sony Nr70V having a 320x480 screen with virtual grafitti, dont you think that PALM would have figured this one out??

I guess, once again, we will have to wait for sony to kick the crap out of Palm again.

To Palm:

PocketPCs have everything that you are throwing together with the Tungston and their screen is larger. Granted the resolution is not a crisp on a PPC but it is still lerger. I have a 320x320 N760C and compared to the Nr70Vs larger screen, its SMALL.

Cmon everyone (chanting to Palm):

INN-O-VATE...
INN-O-VATE...
INN-O-VATE...

It will really be nice when you are working away on the grafiti area and the cover keeps sliding shut on you, similar to the virutal grafiti opening and closing for no reason.

PPC here I come :)

FYI... There is a mini thumb-keyboard under the retracting cover. You get it, plus the normal pop-up handwriting recognition and pop-up (software) keyboard. Quite a nice design.

Although I'm still a Palm platform fan (I have a HandEra 330 I use for day-to-day & work), I just got the Zaurus SL-5500 to "play" with. Mmmmmm, runs Linux!

You're getting greedy. :)

The d-pad can be used to move up and down and left and right. The jog dial is just up and down. Really, the jog dial is just a reshaped up/down rocker switch, like palms have always had, while the d-pad is whole navigation tool.

Games will no longer have to fake a d-pad with the existing buttons. Action games will be much more playable.

The d-pad can be used by both left and right handed people. The jog dial is just for right righties.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Personally I like both about as well.

"The d-pad can be used to move up and down and left and right. The jog dial is just up and down."

Er, not quite. You have left and right actions to a degree as well. The jog dial pushes in (depending on the app on my HandEra this selects an item, or moves laterally across launcher tabs, or ever laterally across menus).

The back/esc button can serve to go the back the other way.

Having said that, for lateral stuff I agree a D-pad is more intuitive.

Where I like the jog dial though is that you have a bit more flexibility. In many apps a jog dial will move a highlight up/down a list view with one at a time selections. This leaves the page-up/page-down buttons for faster page at a time scrolling. And you can quickly alternate between the two.

With a D-pad, it's one or the other. An item at a time or a page at a time, but not both.

"Really, the jog dial is just a reshaped up/down rocker switch, like palms have always had."

Except for what I said above. On my HE330, often (depending on the app) the jog dial sends a prev/next field code (which you can also do awkwardly with graffiti). The scroll buttons generally always do page-up/page-down. I'm guessing that won't nearly so often be the case on a D-PAD device. You may have to use find much more often. I know I certainly wouldn't want to navigate to memo number 300 or 400, one item at a time. Page-up/down would be sorely missed.

"The d-pad can be used by both left and right handed people. The jog dial is just for right righties."

Yes and no. I find the jog dial works best with the thumb. So in fact I nearly always use it when the PDA is in my left hand. That said, it can be done nearly as easily in my righ hand with an index finger. It just depends it you want to mix some graffiti in there which hand you're going to put the PDA in. The fact that it's on the side means you're going to have a digit over it no matter what hand is your dominant.

-- Craig Bowers

Plenty of PDA's Palm and otherwise use a jog like dial. Though likely Sony's is the only one to go all the way around, if you like that sort of thing.

GET IT: The jog dial uses your THUMB. Not your fingers. Allowing for one handed operation and so forth. The d-pad is harder to use one handed.

That's not to say it's not well suited for lefties, but what is in this world?

sony, for me, will have quite a job getting another cent out of me. their devices are hocked out on the market with very little ergonomic consideration - whatever sells, they work on, improve mildly and then relaunch.

so, in theory, the jog dial is great... but i'm not going to form part of a mass-market usability experiment. using the jog dial on the sony devices is quite uncomfortable. its as if someone in the marketing department designed the handhelds and used an axe for their industrial design.

so go easy on palm, guys. it took sony about 7 models to come up with anything nearly as revolutionary as the PalmV. when they launch something really new for power users, they get it damn right.

~Thomas

Regards,

Jeff

I was thinking the same thing. Cool idea, BUT, ever wonder why the Nokia 8xxx weren't sold like that in the USA? Because Nokia got sued by some fool that "put their eye out when the latch released". Same sort of idiot that sue because they got hot coffee without a warning label that contents might be hot.

Last thing Palm needs is another meaningless lawsuit, but at least "criminal neglect" would be a change over "patent infringement".

Reliability trap.

While I know that sony will not be "doomed" by this new product, I hope that sony and palm and handsprng all have continued success and growth.

As for "doomed" I think the PPC folks are a shakin in their boots. Good bye PPC........

Sony is not doomed, they are still making money even if you buy Palm(tm) instead Clié(tm).

Have you heard the latest at some stores? If you turn in your Palm or any other PDA, they will give you $100.00 off any PPC.

SO... they get your old Palm, making it more difficult go back, and they get a new Microsoft convert. Plus, when you get frustrated with the increased amount of work to do the same things, you just have to put up with it because you don't have your Palm anymore. By the time you get over the novelty (5-8 months), your old handheld is just a faint memory.

From whom did you hear this? I don't know of any store(s) that take old PDAs on trade-in for PPC hardware. And even if this is true...I certainly don't have a problem with this scheme. Sounds like a good competitive business strategy to me.

This looks like a nice unit. Sony will continue to introduce new designs as well. Hopefully they'll both have sucess-

ARe you kidding? Have you heard of the Zaurus? This is a complete knockoff of that design. Where's the unique? Where's the original.

If we're splitting hairs, then I guess you'd have to include the fact that the Tungsten doesn't operate on Linux, doesn't have 32MB/64MB onboard memory, etc. But the point I was making was that design-wise (ala sliding plate), the Tungsten is not "unique or original." Your points about whether or not the sliding plate covers a graffiti area or a keyboard is moot. It could cover digital camera or trackpad for all I care.

-- Craig Bowers

Not so many years ago, VGA was a luxury, not a standard. I STILL know people that consider 1600x1200 on a 20" monitor to be too small for everyday use.

There will always be folks who want more resolution. ALWAYS. IBM made a Palmtop PC in Japan (PC110) that did full 640x480 VGA in less real estate than the NR70 screen. And it looked wonderful. If old Blue had bothered to continue that line of portables past the 486, I'da NEVER bought a PDA.

Don't underestimate the appeal of more for less. And remember that the one who ends up with the most software written for their platform, WINS. Regardless of whether it's the best, or whether it gets shipped buggier than Naked Lunch.

KEEP WRITING PALMOS SOFTWARE AND REGISTER YOUR SHAREWARE!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, of course. This is because Sony has 10% of the market and Palm has 35%. You, my sony-loving friend, cannot see palm in the rear view because they are miles AHEAD.

No go put some more silly putty on your NR70 hinge so that it doesn't keep falling forward and hitting you in the nose.

What matters is the trend ,allI know is a few yeards ago (2 maybe) Palm has like 80-90% of the market now 3x% .. !? ... you still don't see Palm is at the edge of dying ??

David

Long Live the King!

They ask for a Palm OS device, and make that a Sony.

What the **** are you guys whinning for? Ur just 10% of the community. :P

MY POINT? You people complaning about Palm, and beefing up Sony, are actually very keen on Palm and what they come out with next. Otherwise you would not hang around a site that is currently a buzz with Palm rumors. If you really preferr Sony, why dont you read up on this stuff at Clei Planet or some dedicated Sony site. If not and you hang around this site, please respect the information that is provided, especially from ED.

And for f*** sake, stop posting comments on here as though it is a complaints board to Palm. Why dont you write to Palm if you have some good idea's or constructive critasism. This site is to hear comments mainly from ED (sensational work as always) and respond with our comments and idea's. NOT to pick the crap out of someones comments for spelling mistakes, difference of opinion etc.

Bruce B

Sorry to be so harsh but come on, give each company a go. You dont see Palm supporters at Clie sites saying "ohr another pda discontinued S suck P rule, ohr me battery dont last S suck P rule, ohr ohr ohr, YOU KNOW WHY ?
Palm users are only interested in their own devise. It works for us/them. Why stab at others. I'm not religeous, but I dont hang around churches saying G sucks anarchy rules.! You know what I'm getting at?

My opinion, and I'm not a guru in any of the pre mentioned fields, "This will be great product, and will draw more attention to the Palm OS"

the reason we are complaining is that yes there
is problem, and no Palm does not what to fix it.

It is obvious that the rest of the world shares
are exact feelings others explain why palm stock
is trading FOR $ .80 CENTS, if this was a great
company with great products and on time innovations
or had a clue, they would be trading at a much higher rate.

So not only does the user community think this company
is DOA, but the investment community who has much more
insite to the inter-workings of upper management than you or I will ever have, realize that products being
released or not going to be winners.

So get a clue SIR.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee....

SONY RULEZ!!!!!!!!

HERE HERE.

BB

here are a few of the mouth-watering features that palm definitely won't have!:

1. a digital still and VIDEO camera that can record M

2. all the built-in palm apps will support the 320x480 resolution of the screen and there is also a built-in launcher that is quite sazzy!

the other stuff, like the built-in voice recorder (used to be only found in pocket pcs), bundled palmsource web browser, mp3 player, among others, are also found in the new tungsten!

bottomline is, the only advantage the tungsten has is its built-in bluetooth capability (sony has a slot for awireless module but you'll have to buy it seperately)and its small and compact size (the NX70V will be the size of the NR70V but a bit thicker owing to the wireless module slot). even the "double-density" screen is overshadowed by the 320x480 resolution screen of the clie!

it will only be a matter of time before most, if not all, palm loyalists will be enlightened and choose tolive the sony pda way of life!

Okay, maybe not. =)

How about TARDY, which is what this device is since it should have been introduced this time LAST year.

I have a TV remote. It has a sliding cover that hides a bunch of buttons that are seldom used. The kids slide that thing up and down, up and down all day long. Guess what? It doesn't stay closed anymore.

Adding moving parts to a device is a bad idea. Some are useful and reasonable. This one seems trivial and gratuitous.

You people should just buy Sony and throw your worries away.

"Palm Says Three New Models Coming Next Month"

(1) "Rumor: Picture of Palm Zire"
(2) "Rumor: Pictures and Details of Palm's Upcoming Smartphone"
(3) "Rumor: Picture of the Tungsten T"

I don't see where you fit a revamped M5xx into that mix.