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Comments on: Rumor: Palm Zire Revealed

Palm's new dual brand architecture, which was introduced yesterday, divides the company's products into two sub-categories: Consumers and Professionals. The first get the Zire family, the second the Tungsten family. The Zire family is intended be easy to use, simple, fun, empowering, and intuitive.

On October 7, Palm will announce its first Zire sub-brand handheld, which doesn't have a model name of it's own yet. Palm Zire will have 2MB of RAM and use Palm OS 4.1. It won't have the Universal Connector nor a cradle, and it will only come with two hardware buttons instead of four, plus the Up/Down separated buttons.

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remote control

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:14:19 PM #
if should come with software to use it as a remote control. Would make perfect sense as a consumer product.
RE: remote control
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:33:22 PM #
It doesn't have an IR port
RE: remote control
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:45:33 PM #
it does have an IR port as stated above.
RE: remote control
abischof @ 9/24/2002 1:46:44 PM #
It sure does have an IR port :). "An internal IRDA port is there too."

RE: remote control
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:49:34 PM #
Yes it does!
Look!
RE: remote control
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:35:18 PM #
Doesn't matter, then it wouldn't be an entry level, bargain handheld.
RE: remote control
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 8:31:26 PM #
I am soooo gay (Happy)
RE: remote control for children
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:12:48 PM #
this would be a good remote control for children.
you could probably drool all over the thing and not hurt it

Why?!?!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:15:33 PM #
Why couldn't palm add the extra two hardware buttons or put in more RAm. 2mb?!?! that's taking a step back don't you think? Well, this unit still looks pretty good and as long as it is under $50 maybe people will buy it.
RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:18:04 PM #
I agree. This product is (IMHO) DOA. New users are us a few years ago. We all went through the decision tree of buying the limited PDA (Visor vs VDX) or the larger model. I bought the larger model because I knew I would need more than 2 MB.

I am in medical education, to use the free PDR, you need 3 megs, Epocrates is 1.5 megs, Kidcompanion is 2 megs. See where I am getting at. A new user impressed by his/her colleague's ability to call up drug info is going to walk right past this one and into the waiting arms of Sony or HandEra.

A budget PDA needs atleast 8 megs to be functional and needs SD/IO or Memory Stick for add on memory. This one can't even function as a RAM scratch pad backing up to the SD card.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:19:48 PM #
Could Palm of created a Crappier Model? This goes beyond a step backwards. With what technology has to offer in the way of advancements in PDAs, you would think a 4 meg device or even an 8 meg device would of been enough as a "consumer device". You dont have to be Geeks to want this either. Think about it, it's the add on software that makes the Palm really cool to use. NOT THE BUILT IN LAME FUNCTIONS. With 2 megs you wouldn't have enough room to load anything worth while.And the 2 hardware buttons is just a joke. You couldn't use this to play many games even if you wanted too. WHAT WILL BE PALMS NEXT LOW END DEVICE? A pad of paper with an unsharpened pencil with the Palm Logo on the fron ot it?
After confirming all these specs,
peter167 @ 9/24/2002 12:24:56 PM #
I am sure Palm will flop big time.

The management team always hope for a mass market appeal, but that's not the case here. Palm will be ready for the mass market, when:

1)The price is acceptable for entry level users
2)The contents of the hardware is decent.

The price of the Zire, is certainly acceptable. However, its hardware, is almost unuseable. The hardware itself reminds us of going back to the Pilot era, not even the Vx. If any of you recall, PCs become popular in the 90s because the price goes down yet the performance/level of the hardware and software goes up. But that's not the case for the Zire.

The only difference from the aged m105 is the sheer look. But yet the RAM goes down to 2 MB. Anyone who wished to buy Palm as an organizer have purchased the m105 for the use. So where are the new comers for the Zire? And to wrap it under a transparent package (like a Casio calculator)?

Palm is doomed (at least on the hardware company). The top management team did not improve the content of its handhelds and keep the price unchanged. Instead, they cut the hardware and keep the price unchanged. Consumers are not stupid, anyone who has a brain will switch to the low-end Sony SL-10s for a mere $50 difference because they could get some useable amount of RAM and at least 4 standard buttons plus a jog dial.

Palm is still thinking about how to attract the public to pay $100 for a grocery shopping list organizer. What a shame!!!

******************
Lie is the future.

$100 is too much!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:25:02 PM #
I sure hope they can sell it in the US for WAY under $100. $75 or less would be much more reasonable considering that this thing isn't even on par with the previous low-end leader the m100. Take away two app buttons, a connection with a dedicated HotSync button (cable had one), and the fun of the changeable face plates, and you have the Zire. I wouldn't buy one of these as a gift unless it was closer to $60. At that price, one might as well go find a used m100 or m105, or an m105 on clearance somewhere. Sheesh.
RE: $100 is too much!
Scott R @ 9/24/2002 12:29:06 PM #
This definitely calls into question to me whether or not they were making any (or enough) money off of the m10x series. Creating a brand new product requires R&D money. Continuing on with a product which they've had inventory of and worked the bugs out for a couple of years _should_ be cheaper. As you said, I don't see how this is much/any more "fun" than an m100 with a stylish cover. My only guess is that they were indeed losing money (or only making a few bucks) on the m100 and there's a much bigger profit margin here, but I don't see how that would be.

Scott

MS school of interface design
Scott R @ 9/24/2002 12:32:42 PM #
What I see here scares me. Does Palm think that removing two buttons and a hotsync cradle makes this Palm _easier_ to use than the m100? It reminds me of how MS thought that by removing features from the Palm-sized PC (in creating the Pocket PC) made it easier to use. It doesn't. It just makes trying to do the necessary things harder and more frustrating.

Now with this device if you want to hotsync, you need to go through a few steps to get to the HotSync program. Or, if you want to access your to-do list, you have to go through a similar exercise. Fewer buttons does not equal easier to use.

Scott

Sure, and while they were at it...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:42:58 PM #
...they should have thrown in an SD slot, wireless capability, Bluetooth, onboard GPS, and a much faster processor.

They might be able to sell this if it's not over $39.95.

This modlel is DOA? Get real.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:44:44 PM #
> This product is (IMHO) DOA.
...
> I am in medical education, to use the free PDR, you need 3 megs

Stupid doctor. Haven't you heard of market segmentation. This model isn't for people who know what a PDR is; it's for the 10% to 25% of new buyers who may never install any 3rd party applications on their Palmtop, but are in a market segment that is very cost and style conscious (that's several million potential buyers!)

The high end Sony NR and Palm Tungsten series are for geek high-income doctors types, and have bigger profit margins to match.

RE: After confirming all these specs,
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:47:44 PM #
"The management team always hope for a mass market appeal, but that's not the case
here. Palm will be ready for the mass market, when:

1)The price is acceptable for entry level users
2)The contents of the hardware is decent."
---------------------

This is only part of the story. Making a complete "product" is more than just its price and stats. I just don't think that Palm's marketing understands that at all.

Who is this device going to be sold to? "People looking for a cheap PDA" isn't a really a market. Why? Because you don't know what they are going to do with it, so you don't know why'd they buy it.

There's a phrase that I heard a few years ago that fits: "sell the need, push the want". If there isn't a need, then you have the harder task of pushing the product.

Palm needs to start customer focus groups and hard targeting them for sales by customizing the product for them.

Todd.


RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:00:05 PM #
>Stupid doctor. Haven't you heard of market
>segmentation. This model isn't for people who know
>what a PDR is...

Duh... What type of retart school of marketing did you come from? I see what Palm is trying to do. They are trying to create a market for a LOW END device, with a PDA that has less to offer hardware wise than any PDA Palm current has ever sold sells for roughly the same or near the same price that m105 sold for which offered more to new users than this PDA has. Palm is trying to pool an Apple here, by recapping as much of their profits with what could be looked at as lame hardware.

The downside to doing business like this, is one it looks bad to those who know the company. And two, Palm could have a better chance in retaining NEW Customers with a workable product, or a product that provide real function. No company has ever lost their user base because their customers had options, which is how I see the m105 at least. An M105 can still function like every other Palm with the exception of the lack of memory. But this... this doesn't even come in the same ball park to call it's self a Palm.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:07:38 PM #
Agreed. This is one reason why the state of health care in the USA is in dire straits. Doctors like this are lucky if they can differentiate a kidney from a liver.

Get a PPC if you need more memory, Dr. Troll.

RE: Why?!?!
jjsoh @ 9/24/2002 1:19:41 PM #
: I agree. This product is (IMHO) DOA. New users are
: us a few years ago.

Hmm.. so I guess there are no more 'new' users. "We" were the last of them and Palm has no choice but to just continue with high end models.

What about people who have never owned one but want to try out an organizer without spending an arm and a leg? Students perhaps? Parents on a budget? I know there are other Palms out there that have more features and are just barely more expensive than this one, but $50 is a lot to many people.

: We all went through the decision tree of buying the
: limited PDA (Visor vs VDX) or the larger model.
: I bought the larger model because I knew I would
: need more than 2 MB.
: I am in medical education, to use the free PDR, you
: need 3 megs, Epocrates is 1.5 megs, Kidcompanion is
: 2 megs. See where I am getting at.

Actually, no. "We" are not all medical students. And if we were, then surely this isn't the market that Palm is trying to aim for. It's an entry level PDA, not one geared towards a professional who may need the extra memory/expansion.

: A budget PDA needs atleast 8 megs to be functional
: and needs SD/IO or Memory Stick for add on memory.
: This one can't even function as a RAM scratch pad
: backing up to the SD card.

I'm sorry, but a budget PDA needs to be cheap, and it will at the cost of hardware. However, for YOUR needs, yes, it's not enough. For someone who just wants an organizer/phonebook/misc, 2MB is more than reasonable. remember the PalmPilot Personal? Even at 512K it was more than enough for me when all I needed was a place to store contacts and numbers (with the card game here and there). It's only when I wanted more that I upgraded years later. But then again, that was me.. the newbie, way back when.

How it will do in the market? Who knows? We'll have to see how many people eat this up. Even I have my doubts, but I've lost touch with reality so don't ask me.

I don't know who is on your list of "we" when you're defining PDA necessities, but it surely is not everyone.

Jim

RE: Why?!?! flames
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:26:29 PM #
Listen, obviously they are trying to find a market for PDA-lite products. In the section of the market I live in, most of us don't buy the big bells and whistles PDA's because of lack of need. PPC's are a near-miss because most medical software is written for Palm OS, thus not a good option.

Palm is going to hurt itself because they will lose the repeat buyer. No one will buy their entry product and say "gee this is useful, but I wish I had feature X also". They will say, "gee my friend bought X and he can do a lot more with his, therefore I will replace my POC PDA with one like his."

Palm loses for the same reason that Nissan lost to Toyota. The entry level Corolla was a better car than the entry level Nissan. People were happy with their Toyota and stayed put when they upgraded to the Camry. Palm will lose on this one, especially if this is the only entry level product they sell.

BTW: Flames are ridiculous. Try some other form of discussion, you might actually like it.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:55:27 PM #
>> "New users are us a few years ago. We all went through the decision tree of buying the limited PDA (Visor vs VDX) or the larger model. I bought the larger model because I knew I would need more than 2 MB." <<

You were talking about spending $200-$250, NOT $100. That's a significant difference.

>> "I am in medical education, to use the free PDR, you need 3 megs, Epocrates is 1.5 megs, Kidcompanion is 2 megs. See where I am getting at. A new user impressed by his/her colleague's ability to call up drug info is going to walk right past this one and into the waiting arms of Sony or HandEra." <<

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are a TINY segment of the market. So tiny, in fact, that ePocrates decided it wasn't worth their money to market a Palm directly to you. If you need more memory, buy it, but don't go bitching because Palm's entry-level model doesn't suit you. And don't go assuming that because you wouldn't buy it, no one would. That's a combination of arrogance and stupidity--not exactly what I would want in my physician.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:03:13 PM #
>> "The only difference from the aged m105 is the sheer look. But yet the RAM goes down to 2 MB." <<

Well, yes. But remember, the m105 was introduced at a price of $250, then fell in price as it aged. This unit will introduce at $100, and I'd bet it'll drop to $75-80 in time for Christmas. In a year, it might be as cheap as $50. Imagine what you would've said 5 years ago if you could've bought a Palm III for $50--you'd have been in heaven. This is what Palm is hoping for from new users. They may not get it, but that's what they seek.

>> "Anyone who wished to buy Palm as an organizer have purchased the m105 for the use. So where are the new comers for the Zire?" <<

Wow. Earth to I.M. Anonymous! Clearly, you're living on another planet, where EVERYONE carries a Palm with their cellphone. Here on Earth, everyone has a cellphone, but only a relatively small proportion carries a Palm. And the 1/16% of the world's population that reads PIC probably accounts for about 30% of the Palms sold, since we just can't help ourselves from dropping $400 every so often to try something new.

>> "And to wrap it under a transparent package (like a Casio calculator)?" <<

What's wrong with that? Last time I checked, Casio (and TI, as well) was still doing VERY well in the calculator business. Blister packaging is cheap and easy to display. Get off the high horse.

You don't have to agree with Palm's tactics. But the prima-donna-esque, "I'm a genius and Palm is a bunch of terd-head idiots" routine is arrogant, it's ignorant, and it's a waste of time.


RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:40:14 PM #
>> "Does Palm think that removing two buttons and a hotsync cradle makes this Palm _easier_ to use than the m100?" <<

Yes.

Palm found that, based on researching of *average* users (not PIC geeks), most people use the Datebook and To Do buttons most. So they included these on the new...say it with me...ENTRY-LEVEL model.

You know, designed for people who've never picked up a PDA before...
...people who probably won't sync very often, and therefore won't care about a cradle...
...people who primarily want to keep phone numbers, addresses, a calendar, and a to-do list in something other than a giant notebook that costs them something like $75 per year in updated pages...
...people who don't feel the need to play Zap! at the airport...
...people who don't care if their info's not in color...
...people who want a low cost, regardless of the bells and whistles...
...people who don't frequent PalmInfocenter...

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:03:31 PM #
>This is one reason why the state of health care in >the USA is in dire straits. Doctors like this are >lucky if they can differentiate a kidney from a >liver.

Makes you wonder why our hospitals here in the U.S. have patients from all over the globe. Also, makes you wonder why our medical schools are attended by students from all over the globe. But mainly, it makes me wonder about people that make assinine, ignorant, and ill-informed statements.

RE: Why?!?!
Scott R @ 9/24/2002 3:35:23 PM #
>> "Does Palm think that removing two buttons and a hotsync cradle makes this Palm _easier_ to use than the m100?" <<

"Yes."

Actually, no. It _doesn't_ make it easier to use. An entry level device is a great idea. The Palm m100 was a pretty good entry level device. Of the entry-level people I've spoken with, the reason why they didn't buy it wasn't because it was too complicated, it was because they had a hard time justifying spending $100. This device solves nothing but, perhaps, increasing the profit margins for Palm. If, in fact, there's more profit to be made on this device, I hope they smarten up and decide to sell it for less (i.e. - keep the same profit margin they made on the m100 with a lower price point). This device could sell great at $49. At $99, it's just a bad value.

Scott

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:38:24 PM #
Provided Palm has another model in this product line (or from an existing product line) available, then this is what I would call a strategic marketing plan. One look at this unit (through the blister pack) and all you are thinking about is "upgrade". Great concept!

Really, if a previous poster's comment about starting this unit out at $100 and dropping the price as time goes on is even partly accurate, then why not do it right from the start and keep the price reasonable.

Use the same form, but add;
-Simple 8 bit color...just for a bit of pizzzzazzzz... (I threw my green on black monitors away years ago).
-4 megs of RAM. 2 MB is just not enough.
-Virtual graffiti. I know, what are you crazy! But think of this.

The biggest problem most novice users have with a PDA is data entry. It has certainly been debated enough on this site. A virtual graffiti area with a pop up keyboard (like the one on the Sony NR70) would be a perfect alternative. The ability to set either graffiti or keyboard as a default would be a must!

Don't expect a novice user to go out and look for overlays and forget about add-on keyboards (ports are on top, not bottom of device). Although this unit may be priced right, if a potential purchaser is concerned about data input, they will look elsewhere.

You know, not all novice users have jobs making $100 a week. Some novices may be doctors or other kind of professional. An entry level device should be able to attract all segments of the population. You don't buy a Harley if you want to learn how to ride a motorcycle, even if you can afford it.

Sorry, but I am betting that the only people buying this device are going to be misinformed grandmothers making gift purchases for a niece or nephew.

Back to the drawing board Palm.

RE: Why?!?!
abosco @ 9/24/2002 4:22:15 PM #
"Sorry, but I am betting that the only people buying this device are going to be misinformed grandmothers making gift purchases for a niece or nephew."

And guess who half of the entire pda market is?

Exactly... those grandmothers and people who don't want to spend a fortune on things they don't need.

-Bosco

RE: Why?!?!
useybird @ 9/24/2002 4:30:50 PM #
This is unacceptable. Why is Palm still using the old philosophy, If it's priced low, it should be low featured. This is no longer true. It used to be that the less you pay for a car, the less powerful and less features you will get. Today you can get some pretty fast cars for less than you expect. But back on the subject, this is a poor excuse for a Palm. It tarnishes Palm's image. The first Palms had about 512K of Ram when they first came out, right? Why, you ask? This had nothing to do with cutting prices. That was what technology we had then. But when I see a Palm that resembles an iPod, 2MB of memory, no expansion, no UC, I think this is a disaster. And all this stuff about it being a base model and that it's for first time users of Palm, get real, I mean we were all once first time Palm users, right? Now, Don't tell me that when you had your first palm, you only used it for basic organizer functions. No one that I know who is a first time user only used it for its built-in functions. Palm is capable of a lot more than this. Where are all the OS5 Palms? Come on Palm. PPC is whooping our butts in features, and then Palm comes out with the Zire.

----------------------------------------
Crack-smash! Splatter: The sound of the MLB using Pocket PC's instead of Baseballs.
RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:47:17 PM #
Makes me wonder what side of the bed folks got out of this morning ...
RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:49:20 PM #
You really got the heart of the matter..

If you paid attention to Palms rhetoric about 6 months ago you'd know that this device exists in order to create up-sell opportunities.

That means that it is intentionally under-featured. The idea is to entice users with the low price and get them comfortable with a PDA, and at the same time become brand loyal to Palm. Then, with the crop of OS 5 devices that will be on the market the user will begin to crave those features that have been left out and go out and buy a new, better Palm. Because the price is fairly low, they don't feel like they have invested in their Palm. The packaging is even geared towards this... this type of throw-away packaging helps to reinforce the idea that this is a entry-level product that is designed to get people familiar with the segment.

Its interesting you mentioned cars, because this is a tactic car companies have used for years.

2mb, don't get a friggin dictionary
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:52:26 PM #
If you want to use this for a dictionary, its not for you. I went with a 2mb model for a year before I upgraded, and it really wasn't that limiting. I still wouldn't want to go back, but new users really wouldn't care. Another target of this would be the education system, where the cheaper and crappier, the better.
RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:00:49 PM #
I agree with the poster using the car analogy. 15 years ago, you had to pay top dollar ($50,000+) for a Mercedes just to get features like an Airbag, ABS brakes, sunroof, genuine wood trim etc.

Now you can get _all_ of that in a VW that costs $25,000 or so, or 80% of the gadgets and "features" (if not the build quality) in a Hyundai that costs below 20,000.

It's almost impossible to buy a car without power windows and mirrors anymore, for example. Why can't a cradle and 4 buttons be included? Companies like VW learned a long time ago that it's actually cheaper in the long run to make a "hot" item standard (CD player, keyless entry, power windows etc) across the board (so they can squeeze their suppliers) instead of try to appease their customers with so many different options packages.

Palm should take a lesson and simplify their lineup, which would mean using a *UNIVERSAL* standard connector and button count, for one.

Now they will confuse the masses even further in 6 months by selling a Zire with a cradle and 4 buttons and the current one without.

User: (to Astraware tech support): I cannot play the Zap 2000 demo my friend beamed over to me

Astraware: What Palm model do you have?

User: Uhhh, a Zire, I think

Astraware: Which one, sir? Some of our games require a patch to operate on the base Zire model.

User: Uhhh, the ugly white one I guess

Astraware: Well, do you know the exact model?

User: Nope, it was a gift

Astrware: How many buttons does it have on the front?

User: I'm not sure. Is this green plastic one the fire button?

etc etc ad infinitum....

RE: Why?!?!
peter167 @ 9/24/2002 6:04:05 PM #
The car analogy is exactly what I mean.

Palm is just cutting hardware and keeping the same price.

And why does someone always assume PDA will be as popular as cellphones? Is there a direct relationship or is that just a dream?

At least we know that Palm is standing on its ground, with the lanuch of the Zire. Perhaps the Tungsten's could really surprise us.

P.S. I never saw a calculator wrapped in transparent package and yet sell @ $100. Transparent-wrapped electronics usually means cheap (to cut costs). Perhaps Palm is breaking new ground on the record of the most expensive item using transparent wrapping. The left-over Palm 10xs will just overshadow the Zire, compared with their package, their contents, and of course, their price.

******************
Lie is the future.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:20:56 PM #
I do not see why palm will not issue the next products with Pilot 5000's configuration, as palm had claimed that "you'll never need more than 512k memory'.

Now it looks like palm is on the right track and 512k RAM is a logical next step.

Bravo!

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:35:07 PM #
Yeah 512K seems logical,
how many people sync their Calculator with their PC anyway, take away the hotsync port too, the scrren should be much smaller, or the next generation, use morse code in/output method so you only need one light bulb the represent all the combination of words, and one button for input and output. Hay seems we got a winner here. it's so Zire for the blind people. well not really blind, but really close to blind people.
RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:02:36 PM #
" Yeah 512K seems logical,
how many people sync their Calculator with their PC anyway, take away the hotsync port too, the scrren should be much smaller, or the next generation, use morse code in/output method so you only need one light bulb the represent all the combination of words, and one button for input and output. Hay seems we got a winner here. it's so Zire for the blind people. well not really blind, but really close to blind people."

Don't laugh. Toy'R'Us stocks a bunch of different cheap ($10 ?) PDA's fo rkids. I bet they aren't losing money on them.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:04:18 PM #
Is that a joke?
RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:23:19 PM #
Don't you guys get it? 512K will save battery!

The 2M RAM actually already puts extra 300uA constant drain on the battery than 512k.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:31:52 PM #
Battery battery, it's the old battery issue again.

Who will need battery with 512K anyway? My only advice would be Don't litter if you really want to throw it away

RE: Why?!?!
mwilhelm @ 9/25/2002 12:18:12 AM #
Even for entry level they should have stayed with the 4 buttons and the universal connection at least.

Many people here have talked about cost (save big money on two less buttons). But that's not necessarily so. If they had to change the manufacturing process to accommodate a 2 button model (hence now they manufacture a 2 and 4 button configuration) not including the design changes and the changes to the other circiutry.etc. Also, bulk buying of buttons may actually lower unit costs.

And the connector is the same. Two different manufacturing costs, design costs, etc.

This doesn't take into account documentation and training issues to support the differences. Also, one of the key features of Palm's (even low entry ones) is the amount of software, many of them written to take advantage of the 4 button models. Additionally, third party hardware providers (cables, thumbboards, etc.) now have two "standards" to contend with.

I guess my point is this: Without knowing the actual cost figures, no one outside Palm's privy can say with certainty that they cost less, however, one can say with certainty that there were/are additional costs incurred to change these fundamental "features"

Just my two cents

Mark


RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:30:16 AM #
Who is talking about cost? Palm is trying to repeat the profit miracles from models Palm V to Vx and m505 to m515.

With pathetic 2M RAM configuration set at price range of 100-130USD, it won't look like a rip off for the next release of Zire series with mere 8M RAM at 250 USD, and hopefully will trigger a buying spree to repeat the profit miracles from Palm V to Vx and m505 to m515.

RE: Why?!?!
OzziePalmDieHard @ 9/25/2002 4:57:52 AM #
"Duh... What type of retart school of marketing did you come from? I see what Palm is trying to do. They are trying to create a market for a LOW END device, with a PDA that has less to offer hardware wise than any PDA Palm current has ever sold sells for roughly the same or near the same price that m105 sold for which offered more to new users than this PDA has. Palm is trying to pool an Apple here, by recapping as much of their profits with what could be looked at as lame hardware.
"
I always find it amusing when insults concerning another's intelligence are misspelt. Please, retard with a "d".
"You unliterate fool!"

"BTW: Flames are ridiculous. Try some other form of discussion, you might actually like it."

Maybe its just me, but that sounded a lot like a flame.


Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

OzziePalmDieHard
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 6:08:44 AM #
Things can get out of hands with stupid jokes.

Boy, you try to help people out, but sometimes they can just be so sensitive. Especially over a little thing like being called stupid.

The other day, I was depositing my paycheck at the bank, and the teller asked me, "Do you want this in checking?" Now, that's a pretty stupid question, seeing as I had closed out my savings account a month before and now only have a checking account. I couldn't believe her stupidity.

But, you know, I try to be tolerant and helpful when dealing with people who aren't all that swift. So, to give her a clue, I said, "Yeah, put it all in checking, stupid." No big speech, no insulting dissection of her dumb question. I just politely answered her and tacked on a little "hint."

Well, Little Miss Genius practically stared daggers at me! What was her problem? I mean, all I did was call her stupid. And it's not like it's even necessarily her fault she's that way. Her mother might have drank too much when she was carrying her or something. All I was doing was pointing out that there's a problem with her intelligence.

A similar thing happened at Pepe's a couple of weeks ago. I ordered the Beef Enchirito Deluxe Platter, and the waiter brought me a Chicken Enchirito. So, naturally, when he put it down in front of me, I gently said, "I'm sorry, but I ordered the Beef Enchirito, stupid."

The guy takes the plate back, and as he's leaving, he shoots me a nasty look. Geez, like I'm the dumbass who doesn't know a chicken from a cow! Strike two.

But even so, I try to be nice. Next time he comes to the table, I try explaining to him as nicely as possible why he's stupid. I even talk extra slow to make sure he follows me. But does he appreciate my efforts to better him? Of course not! He tells me, "I have a lot of other tables to serve, sir," and walks off. Yeah, that would be a real tragedy, not getting waited on by this Einstein, right?

That was his third strike. As a general rule, I drop my tip to 10 percent after the first stupid move, 5 percent after the second, and on your third, you lose the whole bundle. I guess a fourth mistake means the waiter would have to tip me, but I'll never find out, because I don't give people a chance to do a fourth stupid thing. I was out of there and off to a smart restaurant.

Frankly, I don't know why I even bother trying to help these people: Every time I do, they get all huffy and defensive.

It's like the silly brouhaha that erupted when a cop pulled me over last week. It was almost 10 p.m., and I was racing to get to the Builder's Square across town before they closed so I could get the wood screws I needed for my basement shelving project. Out of nowhere, Smokey swoops down on me, apparently preferring that I get to the store after it closes.

The first sign of trouble from this state-supported moron comes when he asks, "Do you know how fast you were going, sir?" Boy, did I ever! Ninety-three! So I say to him, "I've got a question for you, officer: If you've got a radar gun right there in your cop car, why do you have to ask? What are you, stupid?"

Next thing I know, I'm in court. I end up in front of a judge, and I think to myself, "Finally! A sensible pillar of the community who'll respond to reason!"

Well, guess what Judge Chucklehead has the gall to ask? "How do you wish to plead to the charges, Mr. Turpin?" Ye gods, was I in the Twilight Zone? What kind of question is that? I was dying to say to him, "Yeah, I think I'll plead guilty to first-degree trying to finish my shelves! May I see my loved ones one more time before you shoot me?"

But I held back, because I try to show respect to people in positions of authority, even if they don't deserve it. So, instead of responding in a condescending manner, I answered plainly, "How do I wish to plead? What do you think, stupid?"

I don't even want to get into what happened next, but suffice it to say my faith in our justice system was shaken to its core.

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 7:56:45 AM #
LOL!

CJ

RE: Why?!?!
swinginjonny @ 9/25/2002 8:55:56 AM #
Now THAT was a long post--an instant PIC classic! I haven't laughed that hard in some time. (I know, I'll beat you to the punch...I need a life.)

I think everyone has made great points. Business is complicated and decisions are made based on so many factors that you make the one that seems right and wait to see what happens. Palm isn't putting out this model thinking, "Okay, that ought to finish us off nicely!" They are making a decision to try to appeal to a certain market. Whether that decision is "stupid" is not for us to decide, (Again, I know we're all entitled to our opinions but let us not state them as facts.) I sell and train on PDAs every day and I see wisdom in a $50 Palm-branded PDA. At the same time, I don't think two more buttons would have killed their margin and some of their target market will want to play games--(students and kids who's parents bought it for them). I think that this will sell very well at $50-$60 and Palm will still make money. I just hope people buy it as a means to discover the Palm platform instead of buying it and discovering the model's limitations.

Keep up the entertainment!

-Jon

(Self-confessed Palm Geek)

RE: Why?!?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 11:02:40 AM #
You know what would be REALLY clever of Palm, if they really want to get people excited and wanting to upgrade to a Tungsten (or whatever) model??

Put out a really nice piece of hardware for the low-end market--rearrange the existing 6 current Palm buttons for a "D-pad with 2 action buttons" sort of layout (imagine the Zire layout with 2 extra buttons). Add the UC anda reasonable greyscale screen and whatever OS they like-I assume OS 4.1. Then decide if they want to do rechargable battery or AAs-probably AA for the savings route.

Basically, a revamped m125, but more stylish.
Sell the whole package for 99.99 and make everyone go ga-ga over the stylish, full-featured hardware for the $$ BUT have only 512k/1 meg of ram onboard! So it CAN play cool games and whatnot, but only have room for one in memory at a time! Still advertise on the packaging "thousands of phone #'s, years of appointments" and stuff like that. It'd be the equivalent of a 2 ghz P4, just with a 1 gig HD that is not user-replacable!

Or even better, bundle Bejeweled or Zap into ROM, whet the kids' appetites, and them have them clamoring for more add-on games....but they will find they don't have ram enough to install them. So they either get mad and dump Palm or (hopefully) they ask for a better unit next year at Christmas. It happens every 3 years in the game console world, because little Johnny just "has" to play Madden 2003 on his Playstation2 because Madden 2002 on his PSOne just was not hip enough.

This device is perfect for people who don't know about Palm
johnsoax @ 10/2/2002 1:39:03 PM #
My wife has a m100. She uses it to keep track of her schedual, contact list, and draws in the memo pad. She also has Fuel Log, MyBible, Minesweep, Tetris, Solitare, and a few more games. Please tell me how she is limited by the two megs. She never (and I mean never) hotsyncs. Not one of the games that she has on the thing needs more than 4 buttons. Can you name a game that most people will play that does. If you can good. I just looked through the games on my Handera, and not one of them uses more than 4 buttons. The only reason my wife has the software she does is because I asked her to use them, or she asked for them after playing with them on my handheld.

You say that the Zire has no more features than the m100 or m105. It seems to me that the only difference is that it doesn't have the extra two buttons on the front, or the hotsync button on the cradle/cable. Guess what the zire adds - a rechargable battery and software to sync with outlook (Chapura). Gee, the m100 didn't have either of these and it came out for more than $100 when it was released. This device is great for people who don't have any exposure to palms.

As for blisterpack electronics feeling cheep and never seeing an $80 dollar calculator in blisterpack, every single model of TI calculator is sold this way. That includes the $200 TI-89 and Ti-92.

Just because something is not right for you doesn't mean that it is junk or a bad move. I know at least 30 people here at work that will jump on this thing when it is released.

Alex Johnson

Alex Johnson
<><

Proud Owner of a Handera 330

Looks nice..

escobar @ 9/24/2002 12:16:11 PM #
I think Palm may have a winner here, when it comes to the average consumer market! This is not for the "handheld geeks", like most people who visit this site!

I think the design is good, and it may sell very well!

Nice entry level model
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:23:56 PM #
Nice model for entry level.

If you read PIC this model isn't for you.

RE: Nice entry level model
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:34:19 PM #
if you want bang for the buck. this isnt for you.
Solid
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:50:51 PM #
How so?
1. As a parent recently forced to buy my son a $80+ calcualtor for eighth grade, I'd much rather get him this gizmo and add the calc software. He'd have great organizing software and the calc,too (plus the ability to add a modest amount of software. I lived for years on 2 megs very nicely. By the time he hits high school, the upgrade will be warranted and I'd get a few cheaper years of buying school accessories. And he could beam me the phone number of his friends so I could reach the little bugger.
2. How man folks just want to keep personal contact info electronically? I think that market more than swamps the PIC-devotees in terms of pure revenue potential. Seems to me Palm just wants to be like other viable businesses and find profitability.

I could go on...and on...and on....

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:58:14 PM #
I completly agree. Almost everyone that sees my s320 is really impressed by it. Most are impressed with the adressbook and the datebook. They don't care about the rest of the "cool stuff" that I have.

I think this model has a purpose and it fits perfect into that purpose.


Good job Palm.

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:15:22 PM #
>> "How so?
1. As a parent recently forced to buy my son a $80+ calcualtor for eighth grade, I'd much rather get him this gizmo and add the calc software. He'd have great organizing software and the calc,too (plus the ability to add a modest amount of software. I lived for years on 2 megs very nicely. By the time he hits high school, the upgrade will be warranted and I'd get a few cheaper years of buying school accessories. And he could beam me the phone number of his friends so I could reach the little bugger.
2. How man folks just want to keep personal contact info electronically? I think that market more than swamps the PIC-devotees in terms of pure revenue potential. Seems to me Palm just wants to be like other viable businesses and find profitability.

I could go on...and on...and on...." <<

Ah, see, but you're talking sense here. The average PIC poster hates that. PIC posters usually want to:
1. Assume whatever THEY want in their PDA is what "the market" wants.
2. Love BMW...Bitch-Moan-Whine.
3. Love to bash anything and everything Palm does.
4. More BMWs--please.
5. Have never had a real life, a real job, or a real sense of perspective toward the world...EVER.
6. Criticize anything that doesn't come from the "gods" at Sony.
7. throw civility, common sense, and just plain informative discussion out the window.
8. Flame mercilessly.
9. Avoid work at all costs.
10. Did I mention BMW?

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:15:31 PM #
Oh please....
We all know you wouldn't really being saying that if you didn't work for Palm.

Besides.. when was the last time you bought something AND REALLY USED IT?

Because the people who buy this (like all new users) will try to use it. Once they see that their Zire can't perform they like their friends Palm they will be Pissed.

Can you imagine getting this for Christman? What a dissappointment. I would probably switch to a PPC just because it can actually do more than the Zire!

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:46:29 PM #
>> "Oh please....
We all know you wouldn't really being saying that if you didn't work for Palm." <<

Ah, the song of the Pocket PC troll, brought to us yet again...

>> "Once they see that their Zire can't perform they like their friends Palm they will be Pissed." <<

I'd imagine that most of the entry-level users who buy this won't have already seen "their friend's Palm" and bought it. This is for the newbie who's never seen it. If you buy this model after having envied a friend's Palm, you should know what to expect.

>> "Can you imagine getting this for Christman? What a dissappointment." <<

Not to someone who's never really looked into one. And BTW, learn to spell...

>> "I would probably switch to a PPC just because it can actually do more than the Zire!" <<

And when you exchange it, you'll have a heart attack after they ask you to fork over another $400.

Thank you, PPC troll. I believe your iPaq is recharged now, so you can go play Quake for another 20 minutes...

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:48:08 PM #
People....

You are missing the point.
Several years ago 640kbs was all that was needed in a PC computer to function and run. Even Bill Gates him self back than said a PC computer will never need anything more than 640 Kbs.

Well, well, times have changed. Just because the Palm poilt a few years ago had 512 kbs, 1 meg, or 2 megs, doesn't mean that little size of memory is okay today. HAS ANYONE ever heard of Avantgo? A LOT of people like using this and even feels they need to use this on a daily baises. It was availible back when Palms only had 1 or 2 megs. This is a new thing. Try loading this on a 2 meg Palm and you wont have any room for anything else. Does anyone see thhe point I am making here. Unless you want to have 10,000 contacts on your Palm and no other third part software, than maybe this is for you.

Besides the realy argument here is WHY HAS PALM RELEASING A LOWER END DEVICE TO THE PUBLIC WHEN THE PALM 100S AND 105S WAS SUPPOSE TO FILL THIS GAP AND WHEN THEY CLEARLER OFFERED MORE TO THE CONSUMER THAN THIS DEVICE? They are roughly the same in price, so I don't see a need for this, but to take advantage of new user Palm / PDA users?

RE: Looks nice..
kf4tut @ 9/24/2002 2:52:35 PM #
'Looks nice' was my wife's comment on this device, although I've been unable to interest her in a Palm for the past couple of years. The three Palms I've given away or sold to friends are still being used for PIM despite my attempts at teasing them with more powerful programs, which suits them very well. I see this being a very successful Palm, and would have preferred it over my first m100. May buy one of these for myself or for my wife when the price drops, just to have around.


cries in corner with Raggedy Ann doll
RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:01:09 PM #
At these prices, they make great gifts too. I think this will sell very well at Christmas. Some people only want an addressbook and calendar. In fact, I bought my first Palm for this reason andonly upgraded several years laters.

Lower will open up a larger market., Even if the product is inferior, it will sell as long as nobody else sells a better product for the same price.

For all those ne-sayer... what would you buy instead if you wanted an agenda/addressbook for about $100?

RE: Looks nice..
Jeff-Russell @ 9/24/2002 11:06:33 PM #
Anyone remember "64K is all you ever need?" :)

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 1:45:41 AM #

>I think this model has a purpose and it fits perfect >into that purpose.

I have to agree.

While there are a number of people in my office who have PalmOS devices, I'm the only one I know of who uses anything other than the PIM software. In fact, cow-orkers who have Palms still ask me to look up phone numbers, since they don't enter numbers in the device itself, and almost never sync.

I think these kinds of users will love a (relatively) cheap, (relatively) non-geeky-looking Palm. I expect to see dozens of them around my office after the first of the year.

RE: Looks nice..
OzziePalmDieHard @ 9/25/2002 5:03:41 AM #
"Even Bill Gates him self.."

Wow, the lord almighty imparted this parcel of wisdom from on high?
Please, you don't need to refer to Bill Gates as if he is some sort of living legend. My grandmother can write an operating system that blitzes Windows.
It says it all that Bill Gates rewrote his "prophetic, visionary" work a year later, because it became obvious that the internet was the real future.


I'm sorry for that rant, I'm gonna log off red hat now, have a coffee, and stop referring to Microsoft with various insulting acronyms ;)

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 9:22:26 AM #
not many people admit mistake, quickly adjust and actually carry on through intake. That's his brilliance.

compare to Palm who insist on Zen and keep yapping about it while dragging their entire business down the toilet ignoring the future of handheld.

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:13:31 PM #
OzziePalmDieHard

Well put from a man who is really using a Microsoft Operating systems and tries to pretend that he really is using Linux.

LOL

RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:13:31 PM #
OzziePalmDieHard

Well put from a man who is really using a Microsoft Operating systems and tries to pretend that he really is using Linux.

LOL

RE: Looks nice..
peter167 @ 9/25/2002 3:40:50 PM #
Too bad to tell you that a $80 calculator is more advanced than the calculator in Palm. Perhaps you have to download a new calculator software on your Palm.

And the $80 calculator last for years before you need to replace the batteries. I doubt the new Palm has to recharge every week. And finally, I think tapping on the calculator is much easier (also faster) than tapping on the Palm touchscreen with a stylus.

******************
Lie is the future.

Why does everyone think the Zire's just a load of bull dust?
Dragoon @ 2/13/2003 3:08:25 PM #
I've just read the comments about the Zire, and i think that everyone is WAY OFF! The Zire is an excellent handheld for everyone who doesn't need bluetooth, color screen or 32 megs of memory.

Maybe the Zire is a little short on memory, but it's still perfect for students, first-time users, younger people and so on. And maybe the Zire doesn't have 4 hardware buttons, but does it mean that the handheld sucks?


Happy and PROOOUD Zire user!!



bluetooth

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:19:28 PM #
make a version with 8MB and bluetooth for $199 and I buy one. I want bluetooth but don't need color of fast CPU or expansion options. Why is there no PDA that fits the bill?
RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:55:53 PM #
rofl 8 mb ram and bluetooth for $ 199 ??!
this is just too unlikely to happen!
RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:19:52 PM #
I have always thought that Palm makes crappy entry level devices to get users at that price point. Then, a few months later those users 'outgrow' their device and spend more money to upgrade.
RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:19:37 PM #
Why are you mentioning bluetooth in a discussion about an entry level handheld.

Nobody cares what you want...

Jesus...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:41:52 PM #
Jesus.. I hope we dont see another guy posting about MP3 and HiRes.

This is an ectry level at USD $99 ! What features do you expect them to put in this?

All future models from Palm will include Bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:47:01 PM #
"According to an anonymous source, all future models from Palm will include Bluetooth, the same way all of them include an infrared port."

News Editor PalmInfoCenter

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=4029&MODE=FLAT#60875

One of the big differences between IrDA and Bluetooth is that Bluetooth does not need Line of Sight.

When volume kicks in Bluetooth will be very cheap in quantity. So don't be so 2 smart guys.

RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:15:45 PM #
Oh Lord..

Can I watch TV on this??

RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:41:33 PM #
He's not completely wrong. When you buy something at that price point, you expect something more than a worthless piece of crap.

The way to envision success is to take most of the users opinions and put them to use. This is democracy (And you keep saying God Bless America and hope Palm comes up with a better PDA without keeping up with user demands)

RE: bluetooth
Token User @ 9/24/2002 4:44:14 PM #
Can I watch TV on this??

Yes.

1. Place a chair in front of the TV, so that the chair is facing away from the TV.
2. Sit in the chair.
3. With the Zire turned off, hold it straight out about 2 feet at shoulder height and slightly offset from your neck.
4. Adjust viewing angle.
5. With correct chair placement, you might even get surround sound.

RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 6:39:11 PM #
At futureshop I can get a m105 for $160CND, that's roughly $100US. Then what's the reason for buying the Zire?
RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 7:45:26 PM #
The m105s will eventually run out and you can't buy them any more (new, not used). I don't think Palm is making them now as the Zire is introduced. They will just let the inventory run out. If the m100s and m105s could make the same profit margin as the Zire, Palm wouldn't need to release a new entry-level device.
RE: bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 8:53:00 AM #
I won't be surprised if the original poster gets what he wants (8MB and bluetooth for $199). Zire is a line of models, so once Bluetooth drops in price a little and becomes common in home systems it'll appear.

One good thing...

Isaiahp @ 9/24/2002 12:15:20 PM #
If the IRDA is decent then you could use the Pronto Lite software from Phillips and have the geekiest $99 Universal remote ever!

Not for me, but I bet my Mom would like it. The only problem with even the low end market is when they look at my Palm VIIx, they all say "Too bad it isn't color" and all I can do is agree. Color, better resolution, etc.

The Zire is little more than a repackaged Palm III. It's not even a IIIx.

I wonder if the fine people at Palm ever actually read this site, or any other fan site. What have we been asking for?

-Hi Res Color Screen
-Virtual Graffitti
-Wireless Connectivity
-And this might be just me, but I want to multitask without losing my wireless connectivity.

Maybe we ask too much. I like Palm. I love my VIIx. I just wish it was everything on my list. I haven't chenged because nothing fits the above profile yet.

I am holding onto my cash till all of the OS5 products launch. Then I will make the best decision for me.


RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:37:09 PM #
*We* ask too much?!

As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, "What do you mean "we", White Man?"

I like Palm too, but I think the criticism/wish list of yours is better placed somewhere other than a notice about a $99 entry level PDA.

RE: One good thing...
Isaiahp @ 9/24/2002 12:50:32 PM #
Admitedly, I went off on a rant. But I still stand by my statement that people always say, "That would be really neat if it were in color."

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:04:07 PM #
I'd love to see Palm bring out a $125 color device. Give it 8-bit color, and other crappy stats, it doesn't matter. Make sure that it has 4 bottons and a SD slot.

Now you have a much better Gameboy Advance.

Todd.

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:21:24 PM #
>> "I wonder if the fine people at Palm ever actually read this site, or any other fan site. What have we been asking for?

-Hi Res Color Screen
-Virtual Graffitti
-Wireless Connectivity
-And this might be just me, but I want to multitask without losing my wireless connectivity." <<

Oh, please. Did you read the article? This is an ENTRY-LEVEL Palm device. People who read this site are NOT entry-level. This thing'll probably sell. Get over it.

RE: One good thing...
Isaiahp @ 9/24/2002 1:54:00 PM #
I am over it. Thank you. Please read posts before replying in a troll-like fashion.

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:58:37 PM #
Also, it's part of the Zire *family*, so there's no reason that they won't introduce an upgraded model with 8mb, or colour, etc. eventually...if I recall correctly, there was an m100, then an m105, then an m125, then an m130....
RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:01:37 PM #
Actually, I might buy the Zire if it can do a remote control function. The price on those Sony universal remote thingys is about $130. And all it does is remote control. If I can get the same thing as that for the same price, and get a home-based address book, throw-away datebook, and games (not button games) on it, then as Eddie Murphy said, "what-a-bargin. I think I will buy some."
RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:33:30 PM #
>> "I am over it. Thank you. Please read posts before replying in a troll-like fashion." <<

Good for you.

By the way, a "troll" is generally someone who likes to go onto boards just to bash on the item being discussed (lots of trolls at PIC), to spread FUD, or to "stir things up." Someone isn't "troll-like" just because they criticize another poster for saying something that's, well, excessive and a tad ignorant.

Your comment has the tone of someone who'd like to run to their mommy because someone else wasn't nice to them. Perhaps you should develop a thicker skin.

RE: One good thing...
Isaiahp @ 9/24/2002 3:08:10 PM #
I would suggest not post anonymously.

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:36:51 PM #
You guys have way to much time on your hands to analyize the definition of trolling. Get over anon dude. Nobody cares what a troll is. Nobody cares that you know what it a troll and somebody else doesn't. Now just scroll on down the page.

-A

RE: One good thing...
dsm363 @ 9/24/2002 4:38:38 PM #
Yeah, I hate anonymous posters=)

RE: One good thing...
dsm363 @ 9/24/2002 4:40:06 PM #
Darn, I meant to post anonymously when I posted that before. So much for that joke.
Anyway, I think the Zire line will work for some people but I really do think a cradle should have been included at least. Otherwise, I think it looks ok.

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:50:29 PM #
This looks like it is meant to be a very basic, funtional organizer for people's appointments, phone numbers, calendar, etc. For this use, the black and white screen makes sense. The color screens drain the battery too fast, don't look good in bright light, and don't add much value if you aren't playing games or looking at color photos and maps.
RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 6:09:53 PM #
If all this model is for address book, datebook and such basic functions, then why not get a real dedicated organizer for <$50, but with a builtin keyboard, more intuitive display, etc. Even 256KB can store LOTS of contact info.
RE: One good thing...
Haber @ 9/24/2002 10:18:55 PM #
A previous poster mentioned the GBA. This sells for around $60 or less (give or take a few, I'm not up on it). Why can't Palm create a product of similiar power for roughly the same price? I know the GBA doesn't have a touch sensitive screen, PIM software, graffiti, but still...

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 6:49:18 AM #
The thing is, nintendo makes money through licensing on the *games* so they can afford to make a loss on the gameboy itself.

Its the old cheap razor/expensive blades scenario...

Doug

RE: One good thing...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 9:07:59 AM #
I don't think the cradle as something necessary. Especially if u travel a lot, a sync-cable instead of the cradle is much more handy.
RE: Looks nice..
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:38:53 PM #
> Think about it, it's the add on software that makes the Palm really cool to use.
> NOT THE BUILT IN LAME FUNCTIONS.

Although third-party software is improtant to you, a significant fraction of Palm's user base isn't even aware that you can install third-party software on it.

I think there is a sizable market of non-Palm users who will bite for $100-- and the savvy ones among those will then move up to a mid-range or high-end device 6-12 months later. They give the Zire to a relative and the cycle continues. I think it's a good strategy on Palm's part to expand the user base.

RE: $100 is too much!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:41:52 PM #
As I understand the strategy, the Zire is primarily targeted at consumers who buy their electronics from Wal-Mart and Target. The price at such mass volume retailers will likely start at $99.95 or maybe as low as $89.95. They'll sell well at that price and in that retail environment. After the Zire has been out for several months and the sales level off, then you'll see lower prices. Can't say it any better -- if you read PIC, you are NOT in the Zire target market. Get over it.

Doesn't bode well for Tungsten

Scott R @ 9/24/2002 12:25:14 PM #
"The Zire family is intended be easy to use, simple, fun, empowering, and intuitive."

Does that imply that the Tungsten products will be difficult to use, complicated, no fun at all, disabling, and unintuitive?

Scott

Doesn't bode well for Tungsten?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:49:26 PM #
Does that imply that the Tungsten products will be difficult to use, complicated, no fun at all, disabling, and unintuitive?

No, you infer that.

Big difference.

RE: Doesn't bode well for Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:54:45 PM #
>"The Zire family is intended be easy to use, simple, fun, empowering, and intuitive."

>Does that imply that the Tungsten products will be difficult to use, complicated, no fun at all, disabling, and unintuitive?

Absolutely. Not out of the box. But after installing a bunch of beta shareware with crappy or no manuals, trying to find which one made 14 copies of every ToDo and put them all in the Address List, reconfiguring the launcher and all the buttons until he can't remember which does what anymore, and thinking that a fun evening with the girlfriend is reading their PDR's on palmtops together...

RE: Doesn't bode well for Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:55:46 PM #
Let's play "what-if" here for a minute:

I'd rather have a tiny m100 style screen, a 12/16 mhz Dragonball, OS 3.3, and two megs of ram if I could have (at minimum) all my standard hardware buttons. That would be sufficient for basic PDA tasks. Having a UC would be even sweeter. The above configuration would make for a fine entry-level Palm model. Everything that is currently out there would run, just not as well as it would on the m1xx series. I'd rather try to play a game with a slow CPU and 4 hardware buttons than have OS 4.1 (totally usesless having it on the Zire anyway) and a fairly speedy Dragonball but with no means whatsoever to play any games that require all buttons.

Unfortunately, since we are stuck with this travesty, a used m100 or Pilot Professional will makes for a more useful handheld for those that want to "grow" into their units (adding software, playing games, overclocking etc).

Now, a question--I know that everyone here keeps saying that the Zire is cheaper to produce than the m100/105. How can that be? Wouldn't all initial design and R&D costs of the m100s have been paid off long ago and each unit sold actually more profitable than they were ~2 years ago? If that were the case, aesthetics aside, it would have been far wiser to just have stuck with the existing m100 formfactor (call it an m115), stick OS 3.5 or 4 in it, make the case pearl white or silver, and not have had an SD slot onboard-but keep the UC and keep the ram at 2 megs. Voila!

What elements of the m100s are so costly to produce/implement? Is it the fairly high grade of plastic used for the casing? Is it the serial port on the bottom? The fact that it takes throwaway batteries? The internal circuit board layout and design? Does anyone have any engineering experience that could shed some light on this?!

RE: Doesn't bode well for Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:57:59 PM #
LOL! LOL! LOL! That kills me. That is a slight marketing slip up for Palm.
Flawed Logic
cdvd @ 9/24/2002 1:10:18 PM #
Scott, I don't follow your logic at all. Adam didn't say "And the Tungsten is the exact opposite" The Tungsten will be easy to use, powerful, useful, and other adjectives that will benefit corporate users.

I understand the appeal of humor but the best jokes are based on truth, which yours wasn't.

RE: Doesn't bode well for Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:54:29 PM #
Jeez, lighten up, it was a Joke. A JOKE a simple play on words...when was it a requirement that everything posted here be an absolute serious discussion topic.

Get a life (oh, and a sense of humor)

RE: No Universal Connector
Kesh @ 9/24/2002 6:07:19 PM #
>Get a life (oh, and a sense of humor)

Apparently you never learned that humor only works when people know that you're joking. And text has no facial expressions or body language to let people know you're kidding. Perhaps you should either totally exaggerate your joke so that it's obvious or, oh, maybe use a smiley? :)

RE: Doesn't bode well for Tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:31:42 PM #
So I suppose all of the books I have ever read (which were all smiley-free, by the way) were unable of conveying such emotions as, say, humor? Please, I think Scott was right -- some of you dorks need to get a sense of humor and, better yet, improve your reading comprehension abilities. It was obviously a joke, and I, for one, got a chuckle out of it.
RE: No Universal Connector
Kesh @ 9/25/2002 1:15:19 AM #
> So I suppose all of the books I have ever read (which were all smiley-free, by the way) were unable of conveying such emotions as, say, humor?

Books actually used descriptions of people's expressions, body language and reactions to let you know that it was a joke being told. There's a significant difference between those, and a short, faceless Web post.

RE: Doesn't bode well for Tungsten
dmoynihan @ 9/25/2002 3:32:37 AM #
Yeah, but then modern authors like Ernest Hemingway chose to respect their audiences a little bit more, giving only the slightest hints of what was really going on, as with the incredible stories featured in the work "In Our Time."

Truth be told, Ernie started sucking after he chose to spell it all out.

RE: After confirming all these specs,
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:41:05 PM #
I agree. This is getting ridiculous. The "new" Zire is about 3 or 4 years outdated. Palm should be able to offer more than that at a $100 price point. I'm a Palm fan, so it disappoints me that this is the best they can come up with. Has Palm management ever left Silicon Valley? Do they understand that the rest of the world isn't impressed. What type of focus groups are they working with? What consumer would actually want to pay $100 for this? I don't get it.

Okay, but-

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:43:40 PM #
It seems that Palm is still unable to get to lower price points without crippling features.

On one hand, this is okay considering the target market for this product.

On the other hand, you have Sony which is able to continuously introduce more features while also dropping price at the same time.

With the SL10 you get hires, 8 MB, Memory stick expansion for $150. It's not perfect by any stretch (screen readability is the main negative), but that's an awful lot for $150.

However, we have yet to see what Sony could come up with in a model designed to be priced at $100 (closeout pricing doesn't count.) Certainly some of those above features would have to be compromised.

Most seem to be missing the point completely.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:52:25 PM #
With the SL10 you get hires, 8 MB, Memory stick expansion for $150. It's not perfect by any stretch (screen readability is the main negative), but that's an awful lot for $150.


It just doesn't matter to the target entry level buyer what Sony or anybody sells for $150.

Some people just don't want to pay an extra $50 for features they don't need.

Others here seem to want a Pocket PC for $9.95. They're nuts. They may know what they want to pay, but they have no concept of manufacturing cost.

RE: Okay, but-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:44:02 PM #
There is an important mental division between over $100 and under $100. The SL10 is over $100, which puts it out of consideration for a large number of buyers. Under $100 is in the range of an impulse buy, over $100 is something you have to consult with your wife about (who will say NO.). True, many people will carefully examine the various models and decide that the SL10 warrants the extra cost but plenty of people will say "$150! That's too much." without carefully checking.

To the non-technophile buying their first handheld, what they are looking for is one that they won't waste too much money on if it turns out they don't use it. The Zire will be perfect for these people, better than the SL10, which is 50% more expensive.

RE: Okay, but-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:56:22 PM #
100 is quite alot of money, seriosly, 50 dollars or maybe 30 (with rebates and stuff) is more like the price for this PDA.
RE: Okay, but-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:21:52 PM #
>> "To the non-technophile buying their first handheld, what they are looking for is one that they won't waste too much money on if it turns out they don't use it. The Zire will be perfect for these people, better than the SL10, which is 50% more expensive." <<

EXACTLY. Ditto!


>> "100 is quite alot of money, seriosly, 50 dollars or maybe 30 (with rebates and stuff) is more like the price for this PDA." <<

And that's probably the price you'll get very soon. Heck, CompUSA might run a rebate deal right out of the gate!


RE: Okay, but-
micho @ 9/24/2002 4:45:24 PM #
My wife liked this PDA the moment she saw it. I was thinking of buying her an SL10 (which is the PDA I currently own). She's totally technology-avert and kind of liked my SL10 (she's adicted to Bejeweled). Anyhow, I guess I'll wait until X-mas to buy her one of this iPOD wannabes for $50 if I'm lucky. I still think the SL10 is a better value than the Zire(as other posters have mentioned), but also (as other posters mention) the target audience (first time palm users) doesn't care what's out there (specially if it costs more than $100). Don't know what those "extra features" in the SL10 or the m125 are for.

RE: Okay, but-
jjsoh @ 9/24/2002 5:41:39 PM #
: My wife liked this PDA the moment she saw it.

Heh. micho, you're wife and mine. ;)

I was trying to show her the 2 new rumored Tungsten model mockups (which I thought was pretty interesting). She really didn't care and pointed out the fact that my m505 was still better. (She's definitely no technophile and didn't care to hear about the tech specs.)

Anyway, when I went back to the front page of PIC, she saw the Zire and asked what that was. Though, she didn't say she wanted it, she expressed interest by calling it cute and asking more about it. And I know for sure, she could care less about anything but a datebook and contacts list. Because that's all she would use it for (okay, and probably a copy of solitaire).

I'm in agreement with you on the greater value of the SL10, but even when I showed that model to her at CompUSA, she didn't even care. Said it just looked "ugly" and walked away.

Women.

(Er.. no offense to all those women out there ^_^)

Jim

I just think they could've done more-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 8:10:20 PM #
Hi all,

I originally posted this thread. Of course you guys are right- this is the only PDA designed to cost $100, and it is significantly cheaper than $150.

I guess I just thought Palm could've added just a tad more for the money, considering the price of the m100. It's FAR better looking, but is actually LESS featured than the m100 (2 less buttons, not a big deal but still LESS.)

I would have thought they could have added the expansion, or at minimum upped the memory to 8 MB. Will Joe Sixpack or Betty Housewife really care? Maybe not, but it still would have been nice to make it a little more powerful than the m100. I can imagine a lot of HS or college students that would love this model and be able to take advantage of 8 MB RAM or expansion for either ebooks or more advanced programs.

Women
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 10:27:53 AM #
I just wanted to say that my wife also liked Zire's design. Fortunetly she owns Psion Revo which is better so I don't have to by Zire:)

lkluj

RE: Okay, but-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 1:29:30 PM #
I think the (mostly) women who like this because it does precisely what they need and nothing more may actually have it right. Those of us who want room for more features are often also looking for ways to use those features, putting the tool before the job.

I don't know that the Zire will succeed, but breaking the $100 price barrier has been a goal for awhile. The thinking is that people who don't feel that they *need* a PDA might still pick this up, then a portion of those will eventually upgrade to something else.

Where I have a problem with this approach is in the apparent lack of any consumer "icing." The best companies find something of value to offer in their products without increasing the price point. Sony's inclusion of remote control software helped brand the T-415/615 as consumer-friendly devices, for example, even if few people ended up using the software down the line.


The m100 is better? Not quite....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:19:16 PM #
You will actually find, I believe, that the Zire will be better than the m100, due to one quite important factor: processing power. The m100 and m105 actually only have 16Mhz processors (check http://www.palm.com/uk/products/family.html if you don't believe me), compared to the 33Mhz that the Zire will most likely have. Also, the Zire has a rechargeable battery. I admit, though, the lack of buttons is a bit of a shortcoming...

I personally think the the Zire is a pretty well-aimed device.

~Thomas

Appearances sell
orb2069 @ 10/3/2002 2:55:31 AM #
And this thing is a hella lot better looking than an M100.

I don't want one - It's really not going to replace my 330, is it? - But there's lots of image/fashion concerned people who woulden't be caught dead with a lump-of-coal M100 or a queer looking gadget in some bizzare shade of purple.

Target is home to just the market to buy this thing, and I, for one, can see it doing really well.

The only thing that would seal it would be custom, easy to install alarm tones.

This is like DELL introducing a "new" PC with Windows 98,

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:53:50 PM #
64MB RAM, 200Mhz Pentium, and trying to sell it for $1,000.

No. Not even close.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:00:22 PM #
There is a good market for this feature set at the price point.

In six months to a year, given sufficient advances in technology, higher end units for less money will be the norm.

Until then... "McFly... McFly!!"

RE: This is like DELL introducing a
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:03:41 PM #
I think it's just wrong taking advantage of new Palm users to buy this piece of crap.
RE: This is like DELL introducing a
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:24:49 PM #
>> "I think it's just wrong taking advantage of new Palm users to buy this piece of crap." <<

But see, if wasn't a POC to you when you got something similar about 5 years ago. Hell, you probably dropped upwards of $400 on the thing!

It's designed to get new users on board. It's not much for experienced PDA users. Get over it.

RE: This is like DELL introducing a
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:00:13 AM #
This is like Dell introducting a stripped down PC running Windows ME. Think of it as one of those tiny PCs the size of two decks of cards.
RE: This is like DELL introducing a
mrhockey @ 9/25/2002 1:26:23 AM #
I disagree. Its more like those internet appliances that were a fad a couple of years ago. It gives people who are not tech savvy something that they think "hmm. That seems simple, and it can do a bit more than this calender I got from Staples." No one here will buy it, except for a gift maybe, or if you collect PDAs.



Sarcasm: Just one more service I offer

-mrhockey

No, it's like Dell selling that for $100.00
JonAcheson @ 9/25/2002 12:07:47 PM #
And at that price point, they'd probably sell to people whose needs are email and solitaire.

Jon Acheson


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

Christmas Shopping List

Token User @ 9/24/2002 12:52:02 PM #
1x Zire for my sister (late 20's, BBA graduate, carries a day planner, address book, and cellphone).
1x Zire for my mother (late 50's, office manager, carries an address book, bought first computer 2 months ago, clock on VCR always flashes 12:00).
1x Tungsten/T for me (plus replacement for my T68 phone) OR 1x Kyocera 7135 (early 30's, project mgr, BcompSc, developer, gadget freak, PIC reader).

These PDA's are intended for different market. Palm have recognised this by splitting into a Consumer line and a Enterprise line.

My wife will get my Visor Deluxe with 8Mb memory Springboard - still a VERY capable PDA (OK, I'm not THAT cheap, she'll get sometnig nice as well :).

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:20:37 PM #
keep the receipt. Sounds like a disaster going to happen.
RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:41:02 PM #
Be sure to tell your sister to keep her Day Planner. It will probably do more than the new Zire.

Also tell your mom, not to replace her address book. With a nice looking PEN shell get more enjoyment out of that than with the Zire.

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:45:05 PM #
Mom: Son don't buy me a 99 dollars paper weight .... as for you worry about me not setting the clock on the VCR .... did I forget to tell you that I got a watch?
RE: Christmas Shopping List
Token User @ 9/24/2002 2:04:21 PM #
Dear Mum,

A lot of PPC trolls that don't understand market segmentation, and tried to convince me to buy you a nice pen rather than this hand held computer for Christmas. I know, they are a bunch of losers - what do you need a pen for? Unlike the USA, banking and billing has been automated for so long in Australia that you have been on the same cheque book for the last 5 years, so its not like you need a pen for that, and you use a computer at work, so this should be good. The size means you can carry it in your handbag easily too.

I thought you'd like the PDA. Its white, lightweight, has a calculator, and can store your address book and calendar on it. I can add some list software if you like - might be useful for tracknig what yuo need to buy at the shops.

I was pleased to hear sis was using the PDA too. It should help her keep track of assignments at school, and with her social life she might manage not to double book things again. I just hope she keeps the NRMA number handy. She might be interested in some of the other software available for the PalmOS. If she really likes what it does for here she can get a better PDA later, but to be honest, my wife is still using her Palm Professional with only 1MB of RAM as an organiser in her Computer Science PhD program - so 2MB should be plenty for now.

Enjoy the gifts,
Token.

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:23:31 PM #
Dear Son,

I really appreciate the the nice words of comfirt you have offered to me, to help stop the tears of great dissappointment. And though I could of really used a Pen in the real world, I am sure a this $100.00 coffee saucer will come in handle when I need to make a shopping list, though a PEN could of achieved the same thing for much cheaper. I tried to load a few ebooks I have heard so much of and a replacement for the PIMs seeing how the ones that were built in with the Zire are so useless and everyone I know has some other form of personal information management software loaded onto their Palms, but wasn't able to do so because it said I didn't have enough memory.

Though I thank you for the effort and don't blame you for trying to get me into the digital age with a rock, I could used the Pen instead. But that is why I have always loved your sister more than you. I mean after all she is the smarter one of the two and unlike your wife who only carries her Palm for your sake to help make you feel like you really know a think about technology and never uses her 1 meg Palm Pilot that has had dead battieries in it for the last 2 and half years, your sis has help me to find true use with the Zire. We are going to donate them to the starving kids in Africa along with some canned food to help better the world. At least this way we can write the Palms off in our taxes.

Best wishes..
Luv your Mum

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:46:06 PM #
LOL....

dont' tell mom that her Zire will be full before she can load e-book, cooking receipt, car and house maintenance log, little crossword game, and her todo list....

oh you mean she still need more space for her address and agenda? oh my....

Son. I don't raise you to be a fool. now return this toy immediately and save some money. don't you know we are about to go to war, and need to save stuffs?

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:53:13 PM #
Yeah, right...

If your mom speaks the phrase "personal information management software" to you, I doubt you'll be stupid enough to buy her this. She'll already own a much higher-end PDA.

And this is why some people's attempt at humor is just sad...

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:59:55 PM #
Why is that sad? Ever hear of Franklin Quest or Fanklin Covey? One of the largest and most successful Day planner companies in the world. They use words like "Personal Information Managment" when speaking about their day planners.

You're right.. Your humor is amusing.

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:17:13 PM #
Have you seen Franklin Covey financial report lately? how about their stock? They are about as hip as Smith Corona.
RE: Christmas Shopping List
Scott R @ 9/24/2002 3:27:44 PM #
At least this is creative flaming. ;)

Scott

RE: Christmas Shopping List
kevdo @ 9/24/2002 3:31:42 PM #
What happens when your Mom or Sister try to use the software (that you'll presumably be setting them up with) that requires all four hardware buttons?

THAT is the problem with Zire. Even 2 MB of RAM isn't a big deal to me, for the intended audience. The packaging, the color, design, it's all great for beginners... But, only two hardware buttons? I know that will be a big problem for a lot of folks.

-Kevin Crossman

RE: Christmas Shopping List
Token User @ 9/24/2002 4:09:37 PM #
What happens when your Mom or Sister try to use the software (that you'll presumably be setting them up with) that requires all four hardware buttons?

The only software that I use that makes use of the extra buttons are Zap!2000, and Pimlico's Datebook 4.0. OK, Datebk 4.0 CAN use the extra buttons, but its not a requirement, just a nice shortcut.

Apart from games, how many other apps realy make use of the buttons? Even for games, they are not "gameboy" users, and I doubt either of them have ever touched a console game. My sister might like a version of tetris, or bejewelled, but thats about it.

I personally don't think the Zire will be a big hit in the teen market due to the lack of game playability, but I do see a lot of teens receiving them as gifts from well meaning relatives - and if they have them, they might use them, then bitch and moan about an upgrade later.

If you move beyond that market into the adult world, I can't see a compelling reason for the extra buttons.

Can anyone supply a list of non game related apps that require the 4 app buttons in addition to the up/down?

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:02:15 PM #
Okay, I have to ask: what is the deal with people wanting 4 application buttons? Besides games, what software mandates or requires the extra buttons?
RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 6:49:25 PM #
I use OmniRemote which I mapped the 4 buttons and up/down to the most frequent functions I use. I hope there were more buttons.
RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 7:31:16 PM #
Your mum has a clock on the stove, what does she need on the VCR for? :)
RE: Christmas Shopping List
Token User @ 9/25/2002 1:01:12 AM #
Your mum has a clock on the stove, what does she need on the VCR for? :)

Poptarts :D

RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 3:04:43 AM #
i gotta aggree with TokenUser
they didn't know "market segmentation"
that's.
RE: Christmas Shopping List
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 3:51:36 AM #
>Be sure to tell your sister to keep her Day Planner. It will probably do more than the new Zire.

'scuse me. Can none of you remember history. PalmPilots started replacing Day Planners when they only had 512k (Pilot 5000 and PalmPilot Personal) and 1 megabyte (PalmPilot Professional). The only one that was a poor selling joke was the Pilot 1000 (only 128k of RAM!). They sold several million PalmPilots with better profit margins than today units.

And they can't keep selling m10x's. That's last years model... death in the fashion industry. No one but collectors buys last years Swatch watches.

RE: Christmas Shopping List
OzziePalmDieHard @ 9/25/2002 5:24:34 AM #
> Token.

Good to see some Aussies on the boards. Not surprising with Aust. being the most technology savvy, computerized nation on earth, and modest too ;)

But then again, you might need the pen for the 10 hours you spend every month doing GST ;0

BTW, any other Aussies on the board?

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

RE: Christmas Shopping List
Token User @ 9/25/2002 11:33:04 AM #
Good to see some Aussies on the boards. Not surprising with Aust. being the most technology savvy, computerized nation on earth, and modest too ;)

But then again, you might need the pen for the 10 hours you spend every month doing GST ;0

OzziePalmDieHard - I might be an Aussie, but I am looking out my office window in Pasadena watching the Angeles Forest go up in smoke.

Being an Aussie in the USA does give an interestnig perspective on the tech industry though. Australia is a world leader in the adoption of technology (third highest cellphone usage rate behind Sweden and Israel), but it is nice being in a place where technology is more affordable (higher disposable income over here). Australia may not be the first to get the latest and greatest, but it is certainly embraced faster ... I think thats why Mum might like the Zire :)

Flaw

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:00:03 PM #
This Zire handheld has an obvious flaw.... which is very common compared to other entry level Palms such as the M100 series.

The screen!!! Is it just me or I think it's too small?

RE: Flaw
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:50:05 PM #
Is it me or Palm's screen is getting smaller and smaller by each itteration? PalmIII -> m10x -> zire

by the year 2005, if Palm is still around, the new B/W handheld which btw, will have 200kb memory, 33mHz dragon ball, only with one button now, will have a screen the size of your half inch digital watch.

wow.....I can't wait for all this progress.

RE: Flaw
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:50:49 PM #
>>by the year 2005, if Palm is still around, the new B/W handheld which btw, will have 200kb memory, 33mHz dragon ball, only with one button now, will have a screen the size of your half inch digital watch.<<

Would you buy it? I have to admit but I think your comment was dumb. Nobody wants to buy something that is an eyesore....

That is the point.

Zire vs. m105

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:53:50 PM #
Zire Pros:
- Rechargable batteries

m105 Pros:
- 4x RAM (FOUR TIMES!!!)(8MB)!!!
- 4 Nav Buttons
- Cheaper
- True Sync Cable?

I'd take the m105.

RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:26:31 PM #
You forgot:

m105:
--ugly as sin
--replaceable covers was a bad idea
--discontinued
--was $250 when introduced (keep a historical perspective--it works wonders for your logic)
--smaller screen
--heavier

RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:28:12 PM #
And one more:

m105
--serial interface instead of USB

RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:38:24 PM #
Well,

As a Palm Newbie way back in April, I ended up choosing an m100 over a Visor or more expensive palm because I have Win95 at home and Win NT at work, neither of which accept USB easily, so for me, the serial was the only option, and I'm happy for it now, since Zire has USB, and I'm not about to buy a serial adapter on top of everything!!

Yes, I'm one of those who bought the cheapest Palm to see if I'd use it, and I love it, but I do have memory management issues, because I try to stuff Avantgo and Docs to Go on it, but for me, those are just for fooling around, the main reason is contacts, tasks, and date book, of course.

My Father in Law got a Sony S360 to say he has a better Palm than I do, but he didn't know (or care) that the thing had Avantgo, Vindigo, Docs to Go, Movie Player, etc. He has 16mb and has his schedule, contacts, world clock, and currency converter. THAT'S IT!!! he uses about 300k. The Zire would have been perfect for him.

RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:09:25 PM #
Isn't it funny?

When we criticize the Zire for having 2 missing buttons and/or having only 2 megs of ram, the pundits are quick to retaliate with claims that the "newbies" and "students" (and mothers, sisters, wives, folks on a budget etc) don't need/want to be playing games, downloading E-books, synching Avantgo, watching Kinoma movies, etc etc etc.

BUT, when someone says that the m100/m105 is a better bargain, everyone gets all uppity and says that it uses a slow serial interface (which is a moot point if the users alluded to above are going to be doing only basic PIM stuff) and is ugly...I have to admit, buying a PDA based on its ipod-ish looks seems to be far more shallow than wanting to play action games with all hardware buttons.

Finally, the m105 is only discontinued because of Palm's dire financial situation/greed/lack of vision. Heh, remember, the Visor Platinum magically returned from the grave a few months ago, so chances are good that the m105 can be resurrected as well.

P.S. For what it's worth, I do think the m10x series is hideously ugly and awkward looking. But the m125 and 130 went a long way towards at least softening the blow by having more attractive cases and nice flip covers. All it would take is a nice glittery or textured blue casing for the next in the m1xx series and most people would forget about seeing those ugly m100 bricks on store shelves.

RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:08:12 PM #
The m105 is more expensive if you take into account life cycle pricing. The m105 was introduced at $250 and closed out at just under $100. Using the same ratio, the Zire will intro at $99.95, and close out at $39.95 or lower. Add EasyCalc (free and fits in 200k), and this beats some of the budget student calculators.
RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:19:47 PM #
yes I see your attempted logic - BUT - PLEASE REMEMBER that with time performance is supposed to go UP and prices are to go down. That's why you can get a 2GHz Pentium 4 with 256MB RAM PC for the less/same price as you could for a machine with 1/2-1/4 of the pwer 18 months ago - remember Moore's Law??? So the m105 if introduced todat would be no more than $100........Great companies like INTC, MSFT, DELL, CSCO know how to keep pushing the edge of price/performance. What you have at Palm is a team of inept rejects who have been shamefully living off of the dying carcas of the original PalmPilot. What a shame.

RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:27:44 PM #
I forgot to mention it's called the "Time Value of Technology". The cost of a given technology/computing-power-specification tomorrow is worth a lot less than it is today.
RE: Zire vs. m105
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:14:16 PM #
Has anyone ever stopped to think that this unit is treading dangerously close to the SL10 in price? Now, let's say Sony comes up a unit with an identical formfactor/hardware design to the SL10, but with a low-res screen, 20 mhz Dragonball, 2 megs of ram and no MS slot (but keeps the hardware buttons, jog wheel etc). Heck, if they can affordably do it, then keep the MS slot--just whatever it takes to get the price down to $100 level. I wouldn't think that it'd be that hard to trim the SL10's cost down, especially when concessions are made on screen, ram, and CPU specs.

They can sell it for $109.00 with a $10 rebate and they will dismember Palm's Zire efforts--not to mention that Sony has a huge retail presence in stores where Palm has no presence (K-Mart etc). About the only places that sell Palm merchandise (but not Sony) are the office supply stores.


This model has cross promotion written all over it!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:06:07 PM #
How easy will it be to put a Hello Kitty or DragonBall Z cover on it? Forget the Michael Jordan Palm Vx, I want my SpongeBob Squarepants Zire!!!
RE: This model has cross promotion written all over it!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:00:37 PM #
Oh yes.

When over sixty of the units are wired together, they spell, "We're REALLY sorry!"

No but really, its a nice palm....

cybertek @ 9/24/2002 1:24:00 PM #
....for me to poop on

RE: No but really, its a nice palm....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:03:33 PM #
How DARE you say that

before me!

FAKE PIC??

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:27:24 PM #
The "plastic transparent blister packaging" picture looks very fake to me. what do you think??
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:49:44 PM #
Who cares? Get a life...
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:11:13 PM #
LOL, well put.
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:40:02 PM #
Actually, it does look fake though.
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:01:48 PM #
Actually, it looks like the image is taken from an Adobe .PDF file. Maybe it's from an upcoming brochure?
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 8:51:22 PM #
Look, for the last time you morons,

ADVERTISING IS NOT IN BUSINESS TO SHOW YOU REALITY


RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:10:43 AM #
That I know, but it isn't an advertisement either. It just looks like a fake image of bubble wrap with an image of the Zire pasted over. Yes, it could be for some manual or something, but it's just probably not an actual image of a device in it's packaging
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 6:23:42 AM #
And this matters why?
Look at all the ads around you, look close.
This isn't new or even different.
You are just getting caught up.
RE: FAKE PIC??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 10:38:30 AM #
just badly scaled down. probably happened when that daft "provided by" thing was schlepped onto it.

Not for this crowd; we shouldn't like it!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 1:42:20 PM #
It's almost encouraging that the commenters here dislike this device, since it's certainly not aimed at this crowd. This crowd is mostly disappointed at the small memory and few features and no easy Hotsync, but personal non-power users that I know, such as my wife, use just this kind of device with a datebook and contact list as their primary apps, syncing maybe once a week.
As an m500 power user (because of the really light weight) I'm curious about this device, and would consider it with possibly an unauthorized 16mb upgrade!
But I'm seriously more interested in the OS5 devices, as most of us here.

Palm for Ebay

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:05:41 PM #
I go to a lot of country auctions and estate sales. I resell merchandise that I purchase on Ebay. It would be nice to have a handheld device that could access Ebay to check current or recent prices so I don't pay too much for stuff. Is there a Palm that does this?
RE: Palm for Ebay
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:59:09 PM #
Yes, the Palm i705 can access Ebay wirelessly.
RE: Palm for Ebay
swinginjonny @ 9/25/2002 10:45:22 AM #
Or any Palm OS handheld combined with an infrared-enabled cell phone or a cellphone cable from www.thesupplynet.com.

(Self-confessed Palm Geek)

My 2 Cents - Personal Thoughts - Zire

adamzeit @ 9/24/2002 2:09:17 PM #
Q4, 2002 will be a critical period for the PDA world. In fact for Palm, inc. it would be the point of no return.
Palm will finally launch it's Palm OS 5.0, followed by a new high-end PDA, with integrated Bluetooth. A new Palm OS 4.1 data-centric smartphone and an entry level handheld will be also introduced. These three handhelds, particularly the OS5 one, may predict how Palm will handle the everlasting battle with Pocket PC and from next year, with .NET.

Palm's new dual brand architecture which was introduced yesterday, seems to divide the PDA world into two sub-categories: Consumers and Professionals. The first ones, get the Zire family, the last the Tungsten family. The Zire family is intended be easy to use, simple, fun and intuitive. The Tungsten should be the opposite, the real dream of the high-end user, robust, secure, powerful, pragmatic and manageable. Zire should be the ultimate paper organizer replacement, targeting for previously unnoticed people, who use paper every day at school, office or home. It isn't for us, the PalmInfoCenter fans, Tungsten on the contrary are high-end models aimed at mobile professionals and the enterprise work forces.

After seeing the new Palm stands and packaging for the Zire, I think it is intended to be sold as hotcakes, just in every store. Can you think of a better $99 value present for Christmas?

Remember the date, October 7, 2002, if Palm is lucky, it would remembered as the day a PDA had become an universal product. It could be also remembered as the date Palm launched the next generation of m100. A waste of time or a genius Low Profit High Sales plan? Time will tell...

Adam Zeit
Palmi, Editor in-Chief
www.palmi.co.il

RE: My 2 Cents - Personal Thoughts - Zire
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:57:06 PM #
Hanspring already try this tactic with Walmart discounted edge at $150.

what makes you think a crippled Zire at $99 can do better?

Palm Inc better spends good marketing. Maybe at 'Target' with give away hot dog coupon. Where some bored suburban girl beach bum hipster wannabe actually think owning a Zire is 'cool'.

RE: My 2 Cents - Personal Thoughts - Zire
Scott R @ 9/24/2002 3:30:33 PM #
I don't understand what planet people have been living on for the last year. I've seen the Palm m100 with an extra color snap-on face, batteries, etc. sold in blisterpacks at $100 before. I think this Zire might be a good idea if they were selling it at $49 this Xmas, but at $99 they're simply offering less value than what they previously offered.

Scot

RE: My 2 Cents - Personal Thoughts - Zire
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:01:42 PM #
> Hanspring already try this tactic with Walmart discounted edge at $150.

You mean clearance Edge at $150. Nobody makes a profit with that.

RE: My 2 Cents - Personal Thoughts - Zire
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:26:37 PM #
Less value, but more profits, which is the point.
The "Target" audience doesnt know any better.


RE: My 2 Cents - Personal Thoughts - Zire
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:20:34 PM #
Look for palm's new "Dancing Zire" ad campaign.

"I'd walk a mile for a Zire"

and

"Is your Tungsten extended, or are you just happy to see OS5?"

Yes for the unsuspecting and ignorant handheld computer user who doesn't know the difference, choose Palm.
(We got a SPECIAL customer service number for you too, oh yes!)

ugly-

cyruski @ 9/24/2002 2:29:44 PM #
the handheld is nice, but the logo and the packaging is ugly.. couldn't they just use a more beautiful model for the packaging? :)

RE: ugly-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:56:06 PM #
Like that stoned girl from the Mac commercials?
RE: ugly-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 10:40:55 AM #
ah! don't you see, if she was hot, then women wouldn't go for it

Great entry model for school children

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:17:56 PM #
Would have been great a year or two ago. Hey a m500 for $180 or this for $100 not much choice there. But I think this is aimed towards introducing younger people to Palm and Palm OS. Works grat for cigarette companies.
RE: Great entry model for school children
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:33:29 PM #
Okay....

I was just at Fred Myers and saw the Pal M105 for about a hundred bucks (8 megs of ram, all hardware buttons, changeable face plate)

Someone remind me why this Zire is going to be a better model?

RE: Great entry model for school children
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:43:32 PM #
Because the M105 won't be around much longer and the Zire will be the only choice for $99 or less.
RE: Great entry model for school children
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:25:33 PM #
"Someone remind me why this Zire is going to be a better model?"

Much better FOR PALM because its cheaper to build and importantly, leaves you wanting more far more quickly.
It is NOT better for the buyer.......By design.

They are in buisness to make money and THIS is a smart strategy.

RE: Great entry model for school children
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 6:54:15 PM #
What Palm should've done is maybe add something like vibrating alarm, and better speaker and maybe light notification on the Zire, now it is just lame. It's like hay I take off the Ram and give you a smaller screen and sell it to you for the same price.
RE: Great entry model for school children
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:08:25 PM #
No it's not.

Rechargable batteries

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:33:41 PM #
Why the hell? Some of you think that rechargable/replacable batteries are good. Devices that use them require more battery maintenance. Think about it, Palm is expecting you to buy batteries which affects your budget even further.

I don't think entry-level users deserves to buy this PDA when they can get something better - for less.

RE: Rechargable batteries
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:44:55 PM #
That all depends. My wife lets her IIIxe batteries die and I have to reinstall everything. I would much rather she have rechargable so I didn't have to make a run to the store to replace them all the time.
RE: Rechargable batteries
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:08:08 PM #
Or you could make her do it herself, learning a valuable lesson and establishing proper usage habits.
RE: Rechargable batteries
Jeff-Russell @ 9/24/2002 11:26:18 PM #
The previous poster must not be married.....:)

RE: Rechargable batteries
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 6:27:36 AM #
Sure married not whipped.

My wife cleans up her own messes.

RE: Rechargable batteries
mcseym @ 9/25/2002 10:43:59 AM #
Whipping, messes. This looks like it's rapidly going off topic

RE: Rechargable batteries
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/26/2002 10:13:48 AM #
Palm customers have been complained about not using recharagble batteries so palm started putting rechargable but not replaceable batteries in the palm. Now they complain that since the battery is not replaceable that they have to pay to send the device back to palm to have the battery replaced by palm (usually out of warranty- a cost up to $125 depending on model). The use of removable rechargeable batteries was done because that's what many palm users want.

Great!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:07:11 PM #
I for one think this IS great!

Just look at the packaging.. shrink-wrap! This is something a lot of people would buy, I'm really curious for the price.

People shouldn't bull****.. a handheld with features like cradle, BlueTooth, lots of ram, expansion etc. just costs a lot. I bet the margins on this one are minimal too, but it's just a great product to get people hooked on PDA's.

Btw. I hardly ever use the note pad and to do buttons on my Clie, thanks to DataBk4 even the adress button is hardly used (split screen).
Only the 2mb is a bummer, with memory costing nothing nowadays, but I guess that's just to cripple the device a bit to make other models look more attractive.

I think this is what te m100 was meant to be.

RE: Great!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:10:54 PM #
This doesn't imply that I'm buying it btw. Clie's kick ass :)
RE: Great!
bcombee @ 9/24/2002 8:32:12 PM #
They may have also had a lot of 2MB memory left in inventory from the m100 and earlier devices. Remember the hole Palm was in due to having large inventories of parts in early 2001?

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

You geeks dont get it

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:31:54 PM #
I read the SAME stuff about the m100 when it came out. The m series was HIGHLY successful.

The masses have NO IDEA what 2 megs of ram means. They will tell you in the packaging that 2 megs can hold THOUSANDS of appointments, todos, memos ect. That is impressive, since they have no other frame of reference.

Us long time users got hooked on devices with equal or LESS memory than this. We loved our "PalmPilots" back then. We ran out of memory, needed more. I had a hard reset of vacation, need expansion just for backup. Saw color devices, had to get one.
WE WANTED TO UPGRADE. That is the point

The reason why there are not more PDAs out there is because people dont want to spend big bucks on something they may not need or use. Under 100 bucks makes it less of a risk. Buy it love it, UPGRADE it is the plan.

They dont WANT people to have sufficient memory for Avantgo. They want people to try Avango and say: "Wow this is awesome, if I only had more memory....."

For those of you who talk about 150 dollar devices, there is a BIG mental difference between 150 and say 90 bucks (price by years end.) Current hundred dollar devices apparently are not real profitable for Palm. Sure you can get an "M" with 8 megs of ram but it was meant to sell for more. Plus people are satisfied and feel little need to upgrade with 8 megs of ram. Still a lot of PalmVs out there. You CANNOT make a NARROW profit on something that many will not replace for years and make money.

It will be sold at not traditional locations. People wont be looking at a lot of options. Example in you neiborhood drugstore this take place:
"Wow one of those "PalmPilots" for 89 bucks. First time I seen one of those things so cheap. Says you can store thousands of appointments, events, todo, and addresses. My cousin has one of those things and loves it. I think I'll get me one."

People will buy this thing in droves. Then upgrade to something better. That is by DESIGN.
A good design at that. How many of you 515 users were using an M series less than a year ago?


RE: You geeks dont get it
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:21:29 PM #
I started this thread you can call me "Maui" in your replies
Right on!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 1:06:09 PM #
I think you get the point on how Palm is trying to recover. I couldn't agree with you more.
RE: You geeks dont get it
xalia @ 12/14/2002 8:01:48 AM #
Hello, I am a college student and I totally agree with you! I never had a palm before and I am going to buy zire. I do not need in my palm to play games I have a GBA for this job. Moreover I am not going to load any appz, I have my pc for word, excel powerpoint or whatever... I just never had a palm before and zire is something that I can easily afford.

Whay percent are actually used daily?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 6:43:12 PM #
I wonder what percent of PDA's purchased by the end user are actually used daily. I see people holding open a Franklin Planner and the plam closed on their lap. The enterprise not withstanding, do people really utilize PDA's to the fullest, or are they chic address books? Do all the high-powered specs really matter to the average user. Some guy trys it and switches back to his planner. He's out a couple hundie.
RE: Whay percent are actually used daily?
Strider_mt2k @ 9/24/2002 11:02:53 PM #
I do a little of everything with my Palm. (What it can do.)
I'd like to think that computing in general is going towards handheld/personal devices and away from desktops.
I know I will be spending money on a handheld ugrade first, given the chance.

strider_mt2k@yahoo.com
RE: Whay percent are actually used daily?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 8:34:44 AM #
Most people don't really use their PDA's much. There are some of us who are fanatics regarding our little toy's but for the the most part they are just address books and datebooks. Hence the Zire!
RE: Whay percent are actually used daily?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 11:56:04 AM #
NO... NOT HENCE THE ZIRE.

Ford Motors Doesn't introduce a new economy car at $10,000 one year, with a 6 cylinder engine, midsize and tell the public it's an economy car, and than the next year for the same $10,000 introduces another car that amounts to a Yugo and tells people that this is the same economy car just redesigned.

WHO IS THE FOOL HERE? Because that is what Palm has just done to EVERY SINGLE PERSON the Zire is targeted for. Palm has a better device for the same price on the market RIGHT NOW! DOES ANYONE SEE THIS (the M105) or are you all blind? The Zire is fine if it were priced at 50 or 40 bucks, but for the same price as the M105 it is not a replacement, it's a Step backwards!

RE: Vibra feature would make it a nice buttplug
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 8:55:31 PM #
They should have made it quilted, for softness.

Segmentation...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 9:28:50 PM #
Sorry about another car example...

Have you seen that new <Insert low end model name>? The engine, interior and trunk are so small. It doesn't even come with heated seats, GPS, DVD, auto dim rear view mirror, all wheel drive, autostick, etc. This is the nail in the coffin of <Insert manufacturer name>. Who is in charge of marketing? They are so out of touch with car buyers. I like my <Insert high end model name> much better.

Hope you are picking up on the sarcasm, because I'm laying it on pretty thick.

Audi in Europe.
A2 is very small and very plain (looks like a Ford Focus that ran into a wall).
A8 is very large and very luxurious.
A3, A4 and A6 in between with various combinations of convertible and station wagon.
TT is yet another vehicle for yet another market.
Oh yeah, then there are the Quattro variations.
Guess what else, as the cars get bigger and better the price goes up.

Palm has their A2 now, its the Zire.
Tungsten T is either their A6 or A8, not sure for now.
Others to follow.

Lesson from Gates

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:40:37 PM #
"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all the elements of a negative spiral come into play. It is difficult to recognize that you're in a crisis and react to it when your business appears extremely healthy."

- "The Road Ahead" - 1995

Warning this device is for blond and for kids!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:11:22 PM #
See the packing picture. It speaks for itself. Blonds and dummy secretaries, not mentioned kids. To be serious this device is intended for people who have been using calculators and not seen a PDA. Mass Marketing for Palm.
Do expect to find them at WalMart or Target Store.....
speed-angel @ 9/25/2002 3:20:56 AM #
They will be right next to the gum section.......at the check-out counter.

This is like cheap commodity let's hope that their strategy is right. I for one will buy a sony with the ability to do small time presentation and Hi-Res photo-stand.

RE: Warning this device is for blond and for kids!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 3:24:39 AM #
100 dollar cheap commodity ... hmm .... whatz wrong with this sentence
The answer is......
speed-angel @ 9/25/2002 11:31:04 AM #
"Whatz" in the sentence is wrong. The correct form should be What's

Comparing to a $500 CLIE this model is Cheap commodity (if you think that commodity itself means expensive try coffee beans)

I praised innovation and think that those who innovate should charge a premium.

Please....

OzziePalmDieHard @ 9/25/2002 5:53:28 AM #
While people see that the low end users don't want the features, they still try to complain on behalf of them, that there is no UC, low memory etc.
You have got to realize that this is an entry level model.
People have said that 8 megs should have been included to give room for expansion. They fail to realize that the people who use this WILL NOT install new software. They will not search on google for Palm sites. They will not realize that they can install new software on it. They will not know what a UC is. They will not buy a keyboard, or a case, or a modem, or a camera for it. They will never run out of memory, because they do not know what avantgo is. They will most likely not even know how much memory it has, unless they look in the manual.
Yes, it is crappy, but we PIC readers are to put it bluntly, nerds. We are not the intended market, we cringe at the m1xx's. But we fail to realize that the m1xx's were extremely successful. Stand at the PDA stand at Dick Smith's, (sorry, australian shop, but think Radio Shack, or a large electronics shop), and count how many people come in, and buy an m1xx. Then count how many people come in and buy a PPC, or a NR70v.

Several weeks ago, while checking out the new SJ30, an elderly couple came up and purchased m105's. THese people were 65+. I talked to the couple, showed off the features of the T665, let them try out my m130, and generally overwhelmed them.
When they said they wanted organizers, i pointed them the way of the m1xx's. They needed some extra software, which i downloaded for them then and there on the in-store free internet cafe, i burnt them the calculator, list, and tetris,(for the kids, of course ;) all freeware. I gave the couple the disk, and my email adress.
A few days ago, i got a thankyou note from them, where they expressed their gratitude to my protecting them from the salesman trying to push a m515 on them. They said they are very pleased with their palm, and take it everywhere with them.

These are the people the Zire is aimed at. If all you want is a sophisticated organizer, then an m105 is overkill, especially at its intended price. The Zire's intended price is probably about 60 USD, or 100 AUSD. This is reasonable for its capabilities. It fills a hole in the market for an organizer with a decent screen, and with good PIM, and the ability to install a few extras. It means that people who previously considered Palms overkill, and the clamshell toy organizers useless will be brought into PalmOS.

And those who do discover how much more can be done with a palm will upgrade. But in the meantime, millions will be using a PDA, yes a watered down one, but any PDA sold is good.



Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

RE: Please....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:02:07 PM #
To add to your point:
"They fail to realize that the people who use this WILL NOT install new software. They will not search on google for Palm sites. They will not realize that they can install new software on it. They will not know what a UC is. They will not buy a keyboard, or a case, or a modem, or a camera for it. They will never run out of memory, because they do not know what avantgo is."

Many WILL install software, and run out of memory.
Many WIL want color, and expansion.
Many will find Avantgo and only be able to TASTE its potential.

THEY WILL BUY ANOTHER PALM IN SHORT ORDER.

If they did what the geeks here want they would pay a meager hundred bucks and be set for years. These guys wont upgrade for bluetooth like we will.

Like the Visor Neo

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 7:43:19 AM #
When Visor Neo appers,
we are so surprised because Handspring seems to hopes us to buy a new Handheld for updating the OS.
Somebody said Handspring must comsume the old electronic parts, so Neo and Pro were born.

Now, I think Palm Inc. is do the same thing.
(m100 --> Zire)

RE: Like the Visor Neo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 8:47:04 AM #
I highly doubt they used the same components in these new devices. One of the main methods in producing cost reduced devices is combining and reducing the number of components (also using surface mount ICs and highly automated assembly). I think you'll find that this Zire model has significantly fewer parts than the m100. The same is possibly true for the Neo.

well... i think the price will drop to 30dollars

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 8:35:51 AM #
in a few monthes they might start giving away pda's with some products like mobiles or even cigarettes...
just to promote palm OS... and once they like it they turn to buying "real" pda's... this one's just like the pad they give away with lolly pops

Not a bad device, but how is it different from the 105?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 10:19:49 AM #
The m105 now lists for $99 on Palm's site (and is less on the street). The m105 has 8 MB of memory and the Zire has 2 MB. The m105 has 4 buttons and a cradle. The Zire has 2 buttons and no cradle.

Palm needs a device in this price range, but they already have it.

What is the improvement here?

RE: Not a bad device, but how is it different from the 105?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 10:24:33 AM #
It's not an improvement, it's not even the status-quo. It's a device that moves the company backward, not forward. The device itself would be OK if it was priced at $49 - because then its poor specs and mission would be justified - low specs at super low cost - but this device priced at $100 in the year 2002/2003 is no good.
RE: Not a bad device, but how is it different from the 105?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:10:52 PM #
heh anyone realiise "Zire" rhymes with "Dire"?????
RE: Not a bad device, but how is it different from the 105?
MonsterMike @ 9/28/2002 12:45:15 PM #
LOL... good thinking!

The OS Makes the difference

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:27:31 PM #
In all of the statements about the Zire not being a true low end product and comparing it to less expensive electronic organizers, I think that the factor of the Palm OS is not taken into account. Sure, you can get something cheaper...that can't talk to another organizer. While on one level I agree that they could have done more for the price. I understand (I think) why they cut down on the buttons. Simplicity. I have had otherwise bright folks tell me that they will stay with pen and paper forever because "its less complicated". Palm first got its rep by trying to mimic the pen and paper experience as much as possible. This product gets to that root experience, without losing the ability and advantage of being able to beam information, etc to other users and providing a smooth upgrade path for moving information for those who "outgrow" the Zire. The low cost alternatives do not provide that.
RE: The OS Makes the difference
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:44:36 PM #
Exactly!! This unit is obviously designed to be as simplistic as possible, which in turn is *easier* for the everyday person to look at and actually consider.

I consider my Palm to be about the easiest thing in the world to use, and yet every person I suggest it to says "No, those things are way too complicated." Even after I show them, they think it's too much to figure out...and we're talking about a Palm here!

Palm has the right idea with this handheld...and I'm sure they have months upon months of hard data to back up there reasoning. Why bitch about it? It's obvious that it won't fit ANYONE in here's needs...so let's just ignore it, if that's what it takes. But for an entry-level person, I really think it'll be perfect!

Four Button Software

Token User @ 9/25/2002 1:10:39 PM #
Still no response on software that ABSOLUTELY requires access to the four app buttons.

I am excluding games from the request ...

If there are no responses can we conclude that the two button issue is just a furphy (or a McGuffin)?

New Sony

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:31:05 PM #
Screw this, what i'm waiting for its the new sony, Specs are an Intel ARM processor running OS 5
Form factor is the NR series (new one is called NX) with the clamshell design in new colors, the old silver and a new gunmetal gray. New features are mpeg4 in the camera model as well as a boost to 640x480 resolution. There is also a CF slot (that will not do memory) but can be outfitted with an 802.11b card (Sony Branded only). New software includes a Web Browser and redoing the standard apps so that they are HiRes + compatible. Skins for virtual grafitti can be selected directly via a button on the grafitti area. No bluetooth integration or support for Bluetooth via the wireless slot.

Batery life???

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:50:53 PM #
A lot of things are commented, but what about battery life, may sound a nonsense ...

How low can you use your new zire without recharge?

M130 only have 3 hours of REAL work (with max light but palm say a week), M125 last a month (and very little more and palm say 6 weeks), M100 last about 2 months (and palm say 2 months)...

Looking at this and considering the screen (BW) may it last 4 weeks (in palm language) and in fact last for 2 weeks. But.. What palm say about it?

A new user, will left it in the first week if it doesn't last more than a week.

Success?

PIC mobile user @ 9/25/2002 3:57:56 PM #
With specs like that you might as well buy an m100 for $44.95.

I have held it in my hand

alexvdl @ 10/4/2002 1:03:09 PM #
I work at RadioShack and we just got one of these puppies.

Hundred bucks.

It seems a little over priced to me but hey.... I just work here. I wanna see the Tungsten line. HOpefully soon. *G*

Tungsten Coming out on Oct. 28?

bmw22 @ 10/4/2002 7:41:05 PM #
I know the Tungsten is coming out on the 28th but has anyone read ALL the specs and found a price for it yet? Only Good Info I've read so far is "The first Tungsten device is rumored to use a Texas Instruments OMAP1510 processor running at 175MHz, with 16MB of RAM, Palm OS 5, multimedia support built-in, a microphone, headphone jack, speaker, and built-in Bluetooth. No word on price." I'm thinking of getting the Treo 300 so I can have the cell and PDA all in one. Anyone have anything negative to say about the Treo b4 I invest $500.

Brandy


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