Comments on: Rumor: Palm Zire Revealed

I am in medical education, to use the free PDR, you need 3 megs, Epocrates is 1.5 megs, Kidcompanion is 2 megs. See where I am getting at. A new user impressed by his/her colleague's ability to call up drug info is going to walk right past this one and into the waiting arms of Sony or HandEra.

A budget PDA needs atleast 8 megs to be functional and needs SD/IO or Memory Stick for add on memory. This one can't even function as a RAM scratch pad backing up to the SD card.

The management team always hope for a mass market appeal, but that's not the case here. Palm will be ready for the mass market, when:

1)The price is acceptable for entry level users
2)The contents of the hardware is decent.

The price of the Zire, is certainly acceptable. However, its hardware, is almost unuseable. The hardware itself reminds us of going back to the Pilot era, not even the Vx. If any of you recall, PCs become popular in the 90s because the price goes down yet the performance/level of the hardware and software goes up. But that's not the case for the Zire.

The only difference from the aged m105 is the sheer look. But yet the RAM goes down to 2 MB. Anyone who wished to buy Palm as an organizer have purchased the m105 for the use. So where are the new comers for the Zire? And to wrap it under a transparent package (like a Casio calculator)?

Palm is doomed (at least on the hardware company). The top management team did not improve the content of its handhelds and keep the price unchanged. Instead, they cut the hardware and keep the price unchanged. Consumers are not stupid, anyone who has a brain will switch to the low-end Sony SL-10s for a mere $50 difference because they could get some useable amount of RAM and at least 4 standard buttons plus a jog dial.

Palm is still thinking about how to attract the public to pay $100 for a grocery shopping list organizer. What a shame!!!

******************
Lie is the future.

Scott

They might be able to sell this if it's not over $39.95.

This modlel is DOA? Get real.

1)The price is acceptable for entry level users
2)The contents of the hardware is decent."
---------------------

This is only part of the story. Making a complete "product" is more than just its price and stats. I just don't think that Palm's marketing understands that at all.

Who is this device going to be sold to? "People looking for a cheap PDA" isn't a really a market. Why? Because you don't know what they are going to do with it, so you don't know why'd they buy it.

There's a phrase that I heard a few years ago that fits: "sell the need, push the want". If there isn't a need, then you have the harder task of pushing the product.

Palm needs to start customer focus groups and hard targeting them for sales by customizing the product for them.

Todd.

Get a PPC if you need more memory, Dr. Troll.

Palm is going to hurt itself because they will lose the repeat buyer. No one will buy their entry product and say "gee this is useful, but I wish I had feature X also". They will say, "gee my friend bought X and he can do a lot more with his, therefore I will replace my POC PDA with one like his."

Palm loses for the same reason that Nissan lost to Toyota. The entry level Corolla was a better car than the entry level Nissan. People were happy with their Toyota and stayed put when they upgraded to the Camry. Palm will lose on this one, especially if this is the only entry level product they sell.

BTW: Flames are ridiculous. Try some other form of discussion, you might actually like it.

Well, yes. But remember, the m105 was introduced at a price of $250, then fell in price as it aged. This unit will introduce at $100, and I'd bet it'll drop to $75-80 in time for Christmas. In a year, it might be as cheap as $50. Imagine what you would've said 5 years ago if you could've bought a Palm III for $50--you'd have been in heaven. This is what Palm is hoping for from new users. They may not get it, but that's what they seek.

>> "Anyone who wished to buy Palm as an organizer have purchased the m105 for the use. So where are the new comers for the Zire?" <<

Wow. Earth to I.M. Anonymous! Clearly, you're living on another planet, where EVERYONE carries a Palm with their cellphone. Here on Earth, everyone has a cellphone, but only a relatively small proportion carries a Palm. And the 1/16% of the world's population that reads PIC probably accounts for about 30% of the Palms sold, since we just can't help ourselves from dropping $400 every so often to try something new.

>> "And to wrap it under a transparent package (like a Casio calculator)?" <<

What's wrong with that? Last time I checked, Casio (and TI, as well) was still doing VERY well in the calculator business. Blister packaging is cheap and easy to display. Get off the high horse.

You don't have to agree with Palm's tactics. But the prima-donna-esque, "I'm a genius and Palm is a bunch of terd-head idiots" routine is arrogant, it's ignorant, and it's a waste of time.

Makes you wonder why our hospitals here in the U.S. have patients from all over the globe. Also, makes you wonder why our medical schools are attended by students from all over the globe. But mainly, it makes me wonder about people that make assinine, ignorant, and ill-informed statements.

Really, if a previous poster's comment about starting this unit out at $100 and dropping the price as time goes on is even partly accurate, then why not do it right from the start and keep the price reasonable.

Use the same form, but add;
-Simple 8 bit color...just for a bit of pizzzzazzzz... (I threw my green on black monitors away years ago).
-4 megs of RAM. 2 MB is just not enough.
-Virtual graffiti. I know, what are you crazy! But think of this.

The biggest problem most novice users have with a PDA is data entry. It has certainly been debated enough on this site. A virtual graffiti area with a pop up keyboard (like the one on the Sony NR70) would be a perfect alternative. The ability to set either graffiti or keyboard as a default would be a must!

Don't expect a novice user to go out and look for overlays and forget about add-on keyboards (ports are on top, not bottom of device). Although this unit may be priced right, if a potential purchaser is concerned about data input, they will look elsewhere.

You know, not all novice users have jobs making $100 a week. Some novices may be doctors or other kind of professional. An entry level device should be able to attract all segments of the population. You don't buy a Harley if you want to learn how to ride a motorcycle, even if you can afford it.

Sorry, but I am betting that the only people buying this device are going to be misinformed grandmothers making gift purchases for a niece or nephew.

Back to the drawing board Palm.

If you paid attention to Palms rhetoric about 6 months ago you'd know that this device exists in order to create up-sell opportunities.

That means that it is intentionally under-featured. The idea is to entice users with the low price and get them comfortable with a PDA, and at the same time become brand loyal to Palm. Then, with the crop of OS 5 devices that will be on the market the user will begin to crave those features that have been left out and go out and buy a new, better Palm. Because the price is fairly low, they don't feel like they have invested in their Palm. The packaging is even geared towards this... this type of throw-away packaging helps to reinforce the idea that this is a entry-level product that is designed to get people familiar with the segment.

Its interesting you mentioned cars, because this is a tactic car companies have used for years.

Now you can get _all_ of that in a VW that costs $25,000 or so, or 80% of the gadgets and "features" (if not the build quality) in a Hyundai that costs below 20,000.

It's almost impossible to buy a car without power windows and mirrors anymore, for example. Why can't a cradle and 4 buttons be included? Companies like VW learned a long time ago that it's actually cheaper in the long run to make a "hot" item standard (CD player, keyless entry, power windows etc) across the board (so they can squeeze their suppliers) instead of try to appease their customers with so many different options packages.

Palm should take a lesson and simplify their lineup, which would mean using a *UNIVERSAL* standard connector and button count, for one.

Now they will confuse the masses even further in 6 months by selling a Zire with a cradle and 4 buttons and the current one without.

User: (to Astraware tech support): I cannot play the Zap 2000 demo my friend beamed over to me

Astraware: What Palm model do you have?

User: Uhhh, a Zire, I think

Astraware: Which one, sir? Some of our games require a patch to operate on the base Zire model.

User: Uhhh, the ugly white one I guess

Astraware: Well, do you know the exact model?

User: Nope, it was a gift

Astrware: How many buttons does it have on the front?

User: I'm not sure. Is this green plastic one the fire button?

etc etc ad infinitum....

Now it looks like palm is on the right track and 512k RAM is a logical next step.

Bravo!

Don't laugh. Toy'R'Us stocks a bunch of different cheap ($10 ?) PDA's fo rkids. I bet they aren't losing money on them.

The 2M RAM actually already puts extra 300uA constant drain on the battery than 512k.

Many people here have talked about cost (save big money on two less buttons). But that's not necessarily so. If they had to change the manufacturing process to accommodate a 2 button model (hence now they manufacture a 2 and 4 button configuration) not including the design changes and the changes to the other circiutry.etc. Also, bulk buying of buttons may actually lower unit costs.

And the connector is the same. Two different manufacturing costs, design costs, etc.

This doesn't take into account documentation and training issues to support the differences. Also, one of the key features of Palm's (even low entry ones) is the amount of software, many of them written to take advantage of the 4 button models. Additionally, third party hardware providers (cables, thumbboards, etc.) now have two "standards" to contend with.

I guess my point is this: Without knowing the actual cost figures, no one outside Palm's privy can say with certainty that they cost less, however, one can say with certainty that there were/are additional costs incurred to change these fundamental "features"

Just my two cents

Mark

"BTW: Flames are ridiculous. Try some other form of discussion, you might actually like it."

Maybe its just me, but that sounded a lot like a flame.

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

CJ

Put out a really nice piece of hardware for the low-end market--rearrange the existing 6 current Palm buttons for a "D-pad with 2 action buttons" sort of layout (imagine the Zire layout with 2 extra buttons). Add the UC anda reasonable greyscale screen and whatever OS they like-I assume OS 4.1. Then decide if they want to do rechargable battery or AAs-probably AA for the savings route.

Basically, a revamped m125, but more stylish.
Sell the whole package for 99.99 and make everyone go ga-ga over the stylish, full-featured hardware for the $$ BUT have only 512k/1 meg of ram onboard! So it CAN play cool games and whatnot, but only have room for one in memory at a time! Still advertise on the packaging "thousands of phone #'s, years of appointments" and stuff like that. It'd be the equivalent of a 2 ghz P4, just with a 1 gig HD that is not user-replacable!

Or even better, bundle Bejeweled or Zap into ROM, whet the kids' appetites, and them have them clamoring for more add-on games....but they will find they don't have ram enough to install them. So they either get mad and dump Palm or (hopefully) they ask for a better unit next year at Christmas. It happens every 3 years in the game console world, because little Johnny just "has" to play Madden 2003 on his Playstation2 because Madden 2002 on his PSOne just was not hip enough.

I think this model has a purpose and it fits perfect into that purpose.

Good job Palm.

Besides.. when was the last time you bought something AND REALLY USED IT?

Because the people who buy this (like all new users) will try to use it. Once they see that their Zire can't perform they like their friends Palm they will be Pissed.

Can you imagine getting this for Christman? What a dissappointment. I would probably switch to a PPC just because it can actually do more than the Zire!

You are missing the point.
Several years ago 640kbs was all that was needed in a PC computer to function and run. Even Bill Gates him self back than said a PC computer will never need anything more than 640 Kbs.

Well, well, times have changed. Just because the Palm poilt a few years ago had 512 kbs, 1 meg, or 2 megs, doesn't mean that little size of memory is okay today. HAS ANYONE ever heard of Avantgo? A LOT of people like using this and even feels they need to use this on a daily baises. It was availible back when Palms only had 1 or 2 megs. This is a new thing. Try loading this on a 2 meg Palm and you wont have any room for anything else. Does anyone see thhe point I am making here. Unless you want to have 10,000 contacts on your Palm and no other third part software, than maybe this is for you.

Besides the realy argument here is WHY HAS PALM RELEASING A LOWER END DEVICE TO THE PUBLIC WHEN THE PALM 100S AND 105S WAS SUPPOSE TO FILL THIS GAP AND WHEN THEY CLEARLER OFFERED MORE TO THE CONSUMER THAN THIS DEVICE? They are roughly the same in price, so I don't see a need for this, but to take advantage of new user Palm / PDA users?

Lower will open up a larger market., Even if the product is inferior, it will sell as long as nobody else sells a better product for the same price.

For all those ne-sayer... what would you buy instead if you wanted an agenda/addressbook for about $100?

I have to agree.

While there are a number of people in my office who have PalmOS devices, I'm the only one I know of who uses anything other than the PIM software. In fact, cow-orkers who have Palms still ask me to look up phone numbers, since they don't enter numbers in the device itself, and almost never sync.

I think these kinds of users will love a (relatively) cheap, (relatively) non-geeky-looking Palm. I expect to see dozens of them around my office after the first of the year.

compare to Palm who insist on Zen and keep yapping about it while dragging their entire business down the toilet ignoring the future of handheld.

Well put from a man who is really using a Microsoft Operating systems and tries to pretend that he really is using Linux.

LOL

Maybe the Zire is a little short on memory, but it's still perfect for students, first-time users, younger people and so on. And maybe the Zire doesn't have 4 hardware buttons, but does it mean that the handheld sucks?

Happy and PROOOUD Zire user!!

Nobody cares what you want...

News Editor PalmInfoCenter

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=4029&MODE=FLAT#60875

One of the big differences between IrDA and Bluetooth is that Bluetooth does not need Line of Sight.

When volume kicks in Bluetooth will be very cheap in quantity. So don't be so 2 smart guys.

The way to envision success is to take most of the users opinions and put them to use. This is democracy (And you keep saying God Bless America and hope Palm comes up with a better PDA without keeping up with user demands)

As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, "What do you mean "we", White Man?"

I like Palm too, but I think the criticism/wish list of yours is better placed somewhere other than a notice about a $99 entry level PDA.

Now you have a much better Gameboy Advance.

Todd.

No, you infer that.

Big difference.

I'd rather have a tiny m100 style screen, a 12/16 mhz Dragonball, OS 3.3, and two megs of ram if I could have (at minimum) all my standard hardware buttons. That would be sufficient for basic PDA tasks. Having a UC would be even sweeter. The above configuration would make for a fine entry-level Palm model. Everything that is currently out there would run, just not as well as it would on the m1xx series. I'd rather try to play a game with a slow CPU and 4 hardware buttons than have OS 4.1 (totally usesless having it on the Zire anyway) and a fairly speedy Dragonball but with no means whatsoever to play any games that require all buttons.

Unfortunately, since we are stuck with this travesty, a used m100 or Pilot Professional will makes for a more useful handheld for those that want to "grow" into their units (adding software, playing games, overclocking etc).

Now, a question--I know that everyone here keeps saying that the Zire is cheaper to produce than the m100/105. How can that be? Wouldn't all initial design and R&D costs of the m100s have been paid off long ago and each unit sold actually more profitable than they were ~2 years ago? If that were the case, aesthetics aside, it would have been far wiser to just have stuck with the existing m100 formfactor (call it an m115), stick OS 3.5 or 4 in it, make the case pearl white or silver, and not have had an SD slot onboard-but keep the UC and keep the ram at 2 megs. Voila!

What elements of the m100s are so costly to produce/implement? Is it the fairly high grade of plastic used for the casing? Is it the serial port on the bottom? The fact that it takes throwaway batteries? The internal circuit board layout and design? Does anyone have any engineering experience that could shed some light on this?!

I understand the appeal of humor but the best jokes are based on truth, which yours wasn't.

Apparently you never learned that humor only works when people know that you're joking. And text has no facial expressions or body language to let people know you're kidding. Perhaps you should either totally exaggerate your joke so that it's obvious or, oh, maybe use a smiley? :)

Books actually used descriptions of people's expressions, body language and reactions to let you know that it was a joke being told. There's a significant difference between those, and a short, faceless Web post.

It just doesn't matter to the target entry level buyer what Sony or anybody sells for $150.

Some people just don't want to pay an extra $50 for features they don't need.

Others here seem to want a Pocket PC for $9.95. They're nuts. They may know what they want to pay, but they have no concept of manufacturing cost.

I originally posted this thread. Of course you guys are right- this is the only PDA designed to cost $100, and it is significantly cheaper than $150.

I guess I just thought Palm could've added just a tad more for the money, considering the price of the m100. It's FAR better looking, but is actually LESS featured than the m100 (2 less buttons, not a big deal but still LESS.)

I would have thought they could have added the expansion, or at minimum upped the memory to 8 MB. Will Joe Sixpack or Betty Housewife really care? Maybe not, but it still would have been nice to make it a little more powerful than the m100. I can imagine a lot of HS or college students that would love this model and be able to take advantage of 8 MB RAM or expansion for either ebooks or more advanced programs.

I don't know that the Zire will succeed, but breaking the $100 price barrier has been a goal for awhile. The thinking is that people who don't feel that they *need* a PDA might still pick this up, then a portion of those will eventually upgrade to something else.

Where I have a problem with this approach is in the apparent lack of any consumer "icing." The best companies find something of value to offer in their products without increasing the price point. Sony's inclusion of remote control software helped brand the T-415/615 as consumer-friendly devices, for example, even if few people ended up using the software down the line.

I don't want one - It's really not going to replace my 330, is it? - But there's lots of image/fashion concerned people who woulden't be caught dead with a lump-of-coal M100 or a queer looking gadget in some bizzare shade of purple.

Target is home to just the market to buy this thing, and I, for one, can see it doing really well.

The only thing that would seal it would be custom, easy to install alarm tones.

In six months to a year, given sufficient advances in technology, higher end units for less money will be the norm.

Until then... "McFly... McFly!!"

But see, if wasn't a POC to you when you got something similar about 5 years ago. Hell, you probably dropped upwards of $400 on the thing!

It's designed to get new users on board. It's not much for experienced PDA users. Get over it.

Sarcasm: Just one more service I offer

-mrhockey

Also tell your mom, not to replace her address book. With a nice looking PEN shell get more enjoyment out of that than with the Zire.

A lot of PPC trolls that don't understand market segmentation, and tried to convince me to buy you a nice pen rather than this hand held computer for Christmas. I know, they are a bunch of losers - what do you need a pen for? Unlike the USA, banking and billing has been automated for so long in Australia that you have been on the same cheque book for the last 5 years, so its not like you need a pen for that, and you use a computer at work, so this should be good. The size means you can carry it in your handbag easily too.

I thought you'd like the PDA. Its white, lightweight, has a calculator, and can store your address book and calendar on it. I can add some list software if you like - might be useful for tracknig what yuo need to buy at the shops.

I was pleased to hear sis was using the PDA too. It should help her keep track of assignments at school, and with her social life she might manage not to double book things again. I just hope she keeps the NRMA number handy. She might be interested in some of the other software available for the PalmOS. If she really likes what it does for here she can get a better PDA later, but to be honest, my wife is still using her Palm Professional with only 1MB of RAM as an organiser in her Computer Science PhD program - so 2MB should be plenty for now.

Enjoy the gifts,
Token.

dont' tell mom that her Zire will be full before she can load e-book, cooking receipt, car and house maintenance log, little crossword game, and her todo list....

oh you mean she still need more space for her address and agenda? oh my....

Son. I don't raise you to be a fool. now return this toy immediately and save some money. don't you know we are about to go to war, and need to save stuffs?

You're right.. Your humor is amusing.

Scott

The only software that I use that makes use of the extra buttons are Zap!2000, and Pimlico's Datebook 4.0. OK, Datebk 4.0 CAN use the extra buttons, but its not a requirement, just a nice shortcut.

Apart from games, how many other apps realy make use of the buttons? Even for games, they are not "gameboy" users, and I doubt either of them have ever touched a console game. My sister might like a version of tetris, or bejewelled, but thats about it.

I personally don't think the Zire will be a big hit in the teen market due to the lack of game playability, but I do see a lot of teens receiving them as gifts from well meaning relatives - and if they have them, they might use them, then bitch and moan about an upgrade later.

If you move beyond that market into the adult world, I can't see a compelling reason for the extra buttons.

Can anyone supply a list of non game related apps that require the 4 app buttons in addition to the up/down?

Poptarts :D

'scuse me. Can none of you remember history. PalmPilots started replacing Day Planners when they only had 512k (Pilot 5000 and PalmPilot Personal) and 1 megabyte (PalmPilot Professional). The only one that was a poor selling joke was the Pilot 1000 (only 128k of RAM!). They sold several million PalmPilots with better profit margins than today units.

And they can't keep selling m10x's. That's last years model... death in the fashion industry. No one but collectors buys last years Swatch watches.

But then again, you might need the pen for the 10 hours you spend every month doing GST ;0

OzziePalmDieHard - I might be an Aussie, but I am looking out my office window in Pasadena watching the Angeles Forest go up in smoke.

Being an Aussie in the USA does give an interestnig perspective on the tech industry though. Australia is a world leader in the adoption of technology (third highest cellphone usage rate behind Sweden and Israel), but it is nice being in a place where technology is more affordable (higher disposable income over here). Australia may not be the first to get the latest and greatest, but it is certainly embraced faster ... I think thats why Mum might like the Zire :)

by the year 2005, if Palm is still around, the new B/W handheld which btw, will have 200kb memory, 33mHz dragon ball, only with one button now, will have a screen the size of your half inch digital watch.

wow.....I can't wait for all this progress.

m105
--serial interface instead of USB

When we criticize the Zire for having 2 missing buttons and/or having only 2 megs of ram, the pundits are quick to retaliate with claims that the "newbies" and "students" (and mothers, sisters, wives, folks on a budget etc) don't need/want to be playing games, downloading E-books, synching Avantgo, watching Kinoma movies, etc etc etc.

BUT, when someone says that the m100/m105 is a better bargain, everyone gets all uppity and says that it uses a slow serial interface (which is a moot point if the users alluded to above are going to be doing only basic PIM stuff) and is ugly...I have to admit, buying a PDA based on its ipod-ish looks seems to be far more shallow than wanting to play action games with all hardware buttons.

Finally, the m105 is only discontinued because of Palm's dire financial situation/greed/lack of vision. Heh, remember, the Visor Platinum magically returned from the grave a few months ago, so chances are good that the m105 can be resurrected as well.

P.S. For what it's worth, I do think the m10x series is hideously ugly and awkward looking. But the m125 and 130 went a long way towards at least softening the blow by having more attractive cases and nice flip covers. All it would take is a nice glittery or textured blue casing for the next in the m1xx series and most people would forget about seeing those ugly m100 bricks on store shelves.

They can sell it for $109.00 with a $10 rebate and they will dismember Palm's Zire efforts--not to mention that Sony has a huge retail presence in stores where Palm has no presence (K-Mart etc). About the only places that sell Palm merchandise (but not Sony) are the office supply stores.

When over sixty of the units are wired together, they spell, "We're REALLY sorry!"

before me!

ADVERTISING IS NOT IN BUSINESS TO SHOW YOU REALITY

Scot

I was just at Fred Myers and saw the Pal M105 for about a hundred bucks (8 megs of ram, all hardware buttons, changeable face plate)

Someone remind me why this Zire is going to be a better model?

Much better FOR PALM because its cheaper to build and importantly, leaves you wanting more far more quickly.
It is NOT better for the buyer.......By design.

They are in buisness to make money and THIS is a smart strategy.

Ford Motors Doesn't introduce a new economy car at $10,000 one year, with a 6 cylinder engine, midsize and tell the public it's an economy car, and than the next year for the same $10,000 introduces another car that amounts to a Yugo and tells people that this is the same economy car just redesigned.

WHO IS THE FOOL HERE? Because that is what Palm has just done to EVERY SINGLE PERSON the Zire is targeted for. Palm has a better device for the same price on the market RIGHT NOW! DOES ANYONE SEE THIS (the M105) or are you all blind? The Zire is fine if it were priced at 50 or 40 bucks, but for the same price as the M105 it is not a replacement, it's a Step backwards!

I consider my Palm to be about the easiest thing in the world to use, and yet every person I suggest it to says "No, those things are way too complicated." Even after I show them, they think it's too much to figure out...and we're talking about a Palm here!

Palm has the right idea with this handheld...and I'm sure they have months upon months of hard data to back up there reasoning. Why bitch about it? It's obvious that it won't fit ANYONE in here's needs...so let's just ignore it, if that's what it takes. But for an entry-level person, I really think it'll be perfect!