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Comments on: Rumor: Sony Clie NX70V & NX60 Revealed

By: Adam Zeit, Exclusively for PalmInfoCenter.
Surprisingly, Palm may not be the first company to the market with an OS 5 device. Sony, according to an anonymous but very convincing source, is days away from launching two models running Palm OS 5.0, the NX70V and the NX60, by October, 2nd. These models will be run Palm OS 5.0 on a 200MHz ARM CPU. They will have a High-Res TFT 320x480 screen, 16 MB RAM, 16 MB ROM, a new wireless expansion slot, Memory Stick slot, a built-in voice recorder, MP3 player and an internal mini keyboard. The handhelds will have the same clamshell form of the previous Sony NR series.
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Will these be upgradable to OS 6?

ardee @ 9/30/2002 9:46:09 AM #
If upgradable to OS 6, the unit with the camera seems absolutely irresistable, although I wonder about the RAM -- is it enough, and if not, will it be upgradable to more?

Anyway, I'll probably be first in line to get one of these new devices. Maybe I should buy Sony stock first?


RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
cyn @ 9/30/2002 9:50:37 AM #
depends on what changes happen between os5 and os6 - remember, it's not written yet :)

hardware wise, they at least have the right chipset. probably :)

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
ardee @ 9/30/2002 9:56:25 AM #
As I understand it, 3rd-party developers cannot create purely ARM-native Palm OS apps and have them run under OS 5. OS 6 will be needed for that. Thus OS 5 is a sort of stop-gap OS and surely any PDA developer using it knows this and has plans to go to OS 6 ASAP.

Or do I misunderstand this issue?


RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:11:40 AM #
you misunderstand. os5 will run native code, too.
RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:35:16 AM #
no he doesn't misunderstand. OS 5 will not allow 100% pure ARM applications, although it will allow from "armlets" or bits of key parts of the program to be written for ARM. while it gives you most of the benefits of a pure ARM program as the armlets will target performance portions of the program, ie. graphics calls etc. it is by no means total and some parts will always run in emulation. OS 6 will allow for pure ARM applications while still I believe having emulation as the backup rather than primary means of operation.

that said both Sony and Palm have had flash upgrades in the past for their units to higher OS numbers. clearly Palm has lead the way with this though and often didn't charge for the upgrade something Sony always has. neither company has by any means promised a upgrade could be offered or will be offered to OS 6, although many believe that likely. buyer beware.

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:18:32 AM #
> that said both Sony and Palm have had flash upgrades
> in the past for their units to higher OS numbers.

Sony has provided all of ONE flash OS upgrade for a singular model of their PDAs the N710C. They required you to send the device in, they charged something like $50 for it, and it was a very limited time offer. The only reason they did it was because customers were outraged that they released a "new" identical model with a later OS only a few months after its release. I would certainly place zero confidence in the OS upgradability of any Sony PDA.

Palm on the other hand is still providing OS updates for nearly every flash updateable model they ever made (the VII and the original Pilots being the only exceptions I can think of). A huge difference.

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:25:57 AM #
If there is no printed promise, assume it is not upgradable. How many time has Sony weasel out of upgradability? (plus there is no mention anywhere the 16mb are flashable)
OS 6 = OS 5 + new OS 6 API
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:30:21 PM #
Simple. Code that uses the new OS 6 API will all be compiled for ARM. OS 5 (OS 4.1 API re-written for ARM + hires API + Audio API + Browser + support for ARMlets) will be 'part of' OS 6. Units that run OS 5 and have adequate flash ROM will be upgradable to OS 6. All of this has been strongly implied - none of it explicitly stated. However - having one platform for OS 5 and yet another for OS 6 would be insane and suicidal. Nobody would do this. Then again.......
RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:05:25 PM #
I'd say the biggest factor is the ROM size. OS6 is supposed to add things like a real file system, custom fonts, multitasking and support for native ARM code for apps. OS5 still fits in a 4MB ROM. If they are shipping these new devices with a 4MB ROM and OS6 has a 5MB or bigger footprint, unless Palm can provide a "light" upgrade that fits in 4MB, then you couldn't upgrade. By light, I mean leave things out or put some in RAM like the Pocket PC 2002 ROM upgrade did for iPAQs - WMP, Terminal Server, Reader Messenger were RAM updates and Spellchecking and Pocket IE WAP support was left out entirely.
RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:27:32 PM #
The Clie is currently shipped with 16Mb Flash ROM. The leaked pdf says NX will have 16Mb ROM, I assume this will be flash as well. ROM size should not be a problem.

The problem is, Sony will be looking to owners of the NX series to buy their next product. So will they do the right thing and release an update or make a point of not doing so just to sell more of the new device. (I think it is quite common to delay the upgrade a little, so that those with bulging pockets go out and buy the new device.)

The risk is of course, that if they don't offer an upgrade and Palm do (suggesting a marketing decision) most of the current Sony owners might just go and buy a Palm or another product from another company with a better record for software upgrades.

Zuber

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:51:08 PM #
> OS6 is supposed to add things like a real file system, custom
> fonts, multitasking and support for native ARM code for apps

The Palm OS already has a real file system. Supporting multitasking and native ARM code, mainly means opening up and making official existing APIs by providing header files and specifying the binary format. Custom fonts would be the only "new" thing in that list. Fonts are usually one of the bigger items in many OS's, so it could be an issue. Still, you could do a minimal release that only includes a few fonts and it depends on how sophisticated the font system is.

Of course, given that you had no clue in 3/4 of what you said, I wouldn't place much value on any of it.

What about OS7??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:19:56 PM #
Hey man, I'm so cheap I want to buy one unit and use it forever. If this Sony device can take OS6 AND OS7 then I can do all the voice recognition I want on this device and warez everything else man! :) Oh, and I can do all this while I still live in my parents house and geek off since I can't find a date.
who cares about OS 6, we haven't even seen OS 5!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:56:29 PM #
Hey wait a sec, some days ago we where all very excited about the palm OS5 debut... now we are all discussing about OS 6? kinda to ahead in time for me. Lets wait until we get a grip on some OS 5 device and then we will have a lot of things to say about OS 6...
RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:50:08 PM #
>> The Palm OS already has a real file system

Does it?

The Database Manager model is not much appropriate when you think of generic apps, bigger memories and add-on 128M cards.

In PalmOS 3 Palm added a simulation of "flat" files over the databases, but never took the trouble to let them be hotsynced; developpers just ignored it.

I think the time has come for a more tradicional file system, with an hirarquical directory structure. Limits (like the 32K regs max) will have to be expanded. The in-memory model used today for database access should be kept (for compability and also for easy of programming), but tradition read/write operation must be added.


RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:10:10 PM #
>> The Palm OS already has a real file system
>Does it?

What do you mean "does it"? Are we in a time warp here? I can create, read, write, modify, etc. files in a hierarchical directory structure (and modify that too). It's been available on Palm OS for over a year now. What planet have you been on?

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 8:25:14 PM #
>"What do you mean "does it"? Are we in a time warp here? I can create, read, write, modify, etc. files in a hierarchical directory structure (and modify that too). It's been available on Palm OS for over a year now. What planet have you been on?"<

Wrong. The Palm OS runs off a collection of databases, but it does *NOT* have a hierarchical file structure. It does appear to when you use programs like McFile, etc., but even then only on an external memory card, and it's still database oriented. You can't drill down through the folders and actually launch the application. VFS is exactly that: *Virtual* File System.

Sheesh. Learn some things before you run your mouth, will you?

Sean

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:37:45 PM #
Is it ego that makes people take things so personally?
RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 12:49:33 AM #
Grrrr. I shouldn't even waste my time on idiots who don't know what they are talking about but...

> Wrong. The Palm OS runs off a collection of databases,

Run off of databases? No operating system "runs off of databases". A database is a database, whether it is in main memory or on a file somewhere.

> but it does *NOT* have a hierarchical file structure. It does
> appear to when you use programs like McFile, etc., but even then
> only on an external memory card, and it's still database
> oriented. You can't drill down through the folders and actually
> launch the application. VFS is exactly that: *Virtual* File System.

Wrong. What in the world do you think these launcher apps do???? They go into directories and load applications into memory to run! How in the world do you think JPG viewers read files??? They aren't databases! They are files and they are in directories. The Palm OS through VFS supports those things NOW. There is a RAM disk program for current Palm devices that supports this through VFS and the OS 5 simulator includes a RAM disk that does the same thing.

> Sheesh. Learn some things before you run your mouth, will you?

Go get a clue before you post.

RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 1:55:09 AM #
It's a little silly to argue the point. Both of you need clues. Technically, a filesystem is a type of database (in which the data records are the files and the directories). But a Palm handheld with no card in the slot (that's 90+% of them) only has databases in the storage heap, so that's what the PalmOS runs off of for persistant storage. It's true that some launchers permit running apps off of memory cards, but these apps and the launcher itself are databases (prc databases, which are a variant type of pdb database) which must be in the storage heap at run-time. You can't run an app that's flat 68k or ARM machine code in a VFS file directly from the launcher. You can't sync (via a conduit) a database that's been flatted onto a memory card, or that has any record > 64k. So, currently, VFS is a second class citizen, even in OS5. Flat unsegmented code much bigger than 65k is something for which they need to enhance the OS and API's.


RE: Will these be upgradable to OS 6?
ardee @ 10/2/2002 1:47:07 PM #
...which is why I began this whole thread by asking about upgradability to OS 6!


makes me wonder

cyn @ 9/30/2002 9:47:52 AM #
if current NR70/NR70V users can 'augment' their built in apps to support the hires+ mode. I expect not, as even if they can sum up the courage to copy files pulled out of a wholly different hardware device's ROM onto their ROM, it'll still be "talking" in the newer devices language - as it were.

would be nice if sony released a 'backport' - I don't believe all the builtin apps have suitable hires+ replacements ( could be wrong )

ARM??? What happened to XScale?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 9:52:11 AM #
The specs state a 200MHz ARM CPU... What's up?
RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 9:54:03 AM #
Oh, no...not again....
RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
Admin @ 9/30/2002 9:55:47 AM #
Our sources say it will be a ARM-compliant CPU, no other specifics at this point.

-Ryan
RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:40:29 AM #
Dragonball MX1 processor - 200Mhz or a StrongARM processor at 206Mhz or a Intel PXA210 X-Scale processor at 200Mhz - I am putting my money on MX1
RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:18:28 AM #
I'll take that bet, $5 on the 200MHz XScale
RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:12:28 PM #
I read about a new 300mhz Intel XScale that is dubbed faster than other versions. Is this processor included in the Palm Ready program assuming Intel manfuacturers this new Xscale processor?
Duh!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:37:40 PM #
>>The specs state a 200MHz ARM CPU... What's up?

How anybody could have been following PDA news over the last year and not understand this is beyond me. But im a big geek - i guess - so here goes:

XScale = ARM
DragonBall mx1 = ARM
StrongARM = ARM
TI OMAP = ARM

...these are ALL ARM cpus!!!! ARM is the name of the company that designed the architecture AND the name for this general architecture. All of the above companies (Intel, TI, Motorolla) LISCENSE this design/architecture from ARM.

RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
hotpaw4 @ 9/30/2002 2:45:13 PM #
> XScale = ARM
> DragonBall mx1 = ARM
> StrongARM = ARM
> TI OMAP = ARM

> ...these are ALL ARM cpus

Actually not technically correct. These are not just CPUs. These are all controller chips that *contain* a CPU (or two), *plus* a bunch of other stuff (caches, serial ports, clocks & timers, PWM audio, possibly USB, slot, memory and display controllers, etc.) The OMAP throws in a 200 MHz DSP and local RAM.

The TI OMAP and Motorola MX1 contain ARM, Inc. designed CPU cores (ARM 9T variants). The DEC (now Intel) StrongARM and Intel XScale contain ARM architecture compliant CPU's (execute the same instructions, but with different pipeline and cache arrangements, sort-of like the difference between various Athlon, P3 and P4 ia32/x86 implementations.)

RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:25:56 PM #
>>These are not just CPUs. These are all controller chips that *contain* a CPU (or two), *plus* a bunch of other stuff (caches, serial ports, clocks & timers, PWM audio, possibly USB, slot, memory and display controllers, etc.) The OMAP throws in a 200 MHz DSP and local RAM.

Yes i know - but lets keep simple since some people are just finding out the ***crushing*** revelation that xscale is 'somehow' ARM related:)

RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:54:48 PM #
I think all of you guys are missing the point. My guess of what happened to XScale is that Sony has produced their own processor. I know that Sony as an ASIC divison and is making their own chips. The only question is do they have a partnership with ARM? If so, then it would seem to make sense that they would put together their own version. This would allow them to add things that can set them ahead of everyone else. I suspect that they put a mpeg4 engine on the same chip. So who wants to buy one of these and tear it appart and let us know what chips are inside?
DragonBall MX1 for sure!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 7:40:15 PM #
Sony is not saying because they will use other vendors too
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 12:19:20 AM #

If it is XScale *and* Sony is not advertising it,
then I would humbly suggest that Sony plans on using
more than one vendor for its Clie line.

That means Sony will offer both Motorola MX1 and
XScale in their lineup.

XScale performance is poor. Intel won't have Palm
support in their new Beta released compiler until
November. If it is XScale, then it doesn't have
the optimized compiler. Existing ADS 1.X tools
do a poor job with Intel's XScale variant.

It would be foolish to go this early with XScale.


RE: ARM??? What happened to XScale?
Palminator @ 12/8/2002 5:42:09 PM #
I'm not exactly sure where you are getting your information about XScale, but it is entirely false. Have you run any benchmarks on TT vs. NX70/60? Please use data to make final determinations, not someone's opinion or comparison against a PPC device. Seems to me there aren't any PPC devices running OMAP-1510 ... why ??? I would speculate the device does not have enough performance to make a product.

BTW ... did you ever think that Sony has a well known brand name in consumer electronics and doesn't necessarily want to associate Intel and XScale with the Sony brand name. Sony invests a lot of money and effort into promoting a brand name and "associating" the Clie product line with Intel may dilute the branding efforts.


Coolest gadget ever

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 9:52:37 AM #
At its launch, surely the NX70V (with the wireless card) will be the coolest and most advanced little gadget in human history. It simply blows the door off any PDA by any manufacturer ever, by far. Add more RAM and maybe telephone features and it's the gadget of one's ultimate dreams.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
cyn @ 9/30/2002 9:55:32 AM #
careful, add too much and it's not a gadget anymore...

From WordNet (r) 1.7 :
"
gadget
n : a device that very useful for a particular job
"

besides, voice would be nice and all but it's not exactly a good form factor for it - unless you make sure you've got a headset.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 9:59:59 AM #
By Merriam-Webster's definition:

"an often small mechanical or electronic device with a practical use but often thought of as a novelty"

In my thinking, a gadget is a small device that has one or more features, period, and this thing packs more useful and advanced features into 8 oz. than anything, ever (at least until the next model).

I haven't been a big buyer of Sony gear over the years, but it looks like that's about to change big-time. I love my current Clie N760C, but it's looking to be time to upgrade!

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:17:12 AM #
At its launch, surely the NX70V (with the wireless card) will be the coolest and most advanced little gadget in human history.

5.5 X 2.9 X 1 inches.
8 oz

I wouldn't exactly call it "little". Palm's design will appeal to more people. Tungsten is only .6 inches thick and weighs only 5.6 oz. Also if it is true that Sony uses a 200 mhz ARM chip the OMAP chip will be as fast and get better battery life.

RE: Coolest gadget ever...maybe...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:19:27 AM #
Let me preface this posting with a few statements:

I LOVE my Clie N760C...it is the best PalmOS device I've ever owned (and I've owned 7 devices in the last 4 years...all Palm branded, except for the N760C). I have become quite a big fan of Sony and their PalmOS strategy, despite the fact that my one-year-old N760C is about 3 generations old by now. They have pushed the PalmOS to heights that none of us could have imagined, regardless of OS version.

OK, here is my problem...Toshiba, T-MObile, HP/Compaq. I do not see myself abandoning the PalmOS for PPC, but I am afraid if the current hardware trends continue, we may finally see the significant erosion of the PalmOS market share, in favor of PPC, that has been forecast for years. The new generation of PPC devices have some very compelling feature sets and much improved form factors.

I had the opportunity to play with the T-Mobile PPC smartphone, and just on form factor alone, it is a beautiful device. It looks nicer than any PalmOS based phone I've seen, including the upcoming Tungsten W, the Treo line, Samsung, and Kyocera (I've used/owned both the Samsung and Kyocera models). This is one place where we could really see Palm take it in the teeth, since a cell phone buyer will often consider form, but not always be so concerned with what OS is embedded.

I have also been pretty impressed with the Toshiba PPC models. The e740 has built-in WiFi, plus TWO expansion slots (CF and SD/MMC), all in a reasonable (albeit kind of plain) form factor. The battery life is not too good, but neither is the reported battery life for the NX70V...but the Toshiba has a user-accessible battery compartment. I think Palm made a strategic error when they refused to sell Toshiba a PalmOS license. They were afraid to lose more market share on their more lucrative hardware side...well unfortunately, they will probably still lose market share to Toshiba, despite the fact that they are running the PPC OS.

My biggest issue is the capability for wireless connectivity. I am a bit concerned with the strategy that Sony has adopted here. By limiting CF choices, and by not including Bluetooth, I am not quite ready to just jump on this device as soon as it is available. I think Palm did a great thing by including Bluetooth, but really missed on the rest of the new Tungsten T (ugly, awkward form factor, no virtual graffiti).

I am hoping that the next Sony device running OS5 will be as thin as the T655C, with buttons like my N760C, built-in bluetooth, and pack the new features and software of the NX60 (since I doubt it will have a camera).

Maybe I'll be waiting for the crop of OS6 devices....sigh...

RE: Coolest gadget ever
robrecht @ 9/30/2002 11:05:32 AM #
"The battery life is not too good, but neither is the reported battery life for the NX70V"

Have there been any informed, credible reports about the battery life of the NX70V? I know that, in general, SONY's battery life for its high-end handhelds has been very poor, but maybe we can hope that the new processor and new operating system will provide for better batter life?

Thanks, Robrecht

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:22:42 AM #
If you read the specifications on the leaked Sony document, which was posted here last week, the reported battery life for the NX70V is 5 hours with the backlight OFF.
RE: Coolest gadget ever
robrecht @ 9/30/2002 11:31:16 AM #
Such ridiculously poor battery life!

Still no good connectivity options!

Very large form factor!

Even though I very much want color virtual graffiti, and I am a big fan of SONY products, I just don't see this as my next handheld.

Thanks, Robrecht

RE: Coolest gadget ever
hotpaw4 @ 9/30/2002 3:02:17 PM #
> the reported battery life for the NX70V is 5 hours with the backlight OFF

And this is much worse than you think because typical battery life measurements are reported using applications where the CPU is mostly idle (display ON, CPU OFF!). And given how much faster the XScale performs, it probably spends a greater percentage napping in typical apps than a 68k Dragonball. Any guesses as to the NX70V battery life with the backlight on medium while playing a high animation game? I'm not too optimistic.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:51:54 PM #
"Also if it is true that Sony uses a 200 mhz ARM chip the OMAP chip will be as fast and get better battery life."

Whoa.... how on *earth* did you come up with the idea that the 175mhz TI ARM chip is faster than the 200mhz Intel one?

I /highly/ doubt that.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:27:14 PM #
"Whoa.... how on *earth* did you come up with the idea that the 175mhz TI ARM chip is faster than the 200mhz Intel one?"

First, we don't know if ist an Intel chip. Second I didn't say faster I said as fast. Do you think you will be able to tell the difference between a 175 and a 200 mhz processor in daily use? If you do you are buying into the mhz hype of the PPC camp.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:34:57 PM #
Hmmm, I'd vote for the pacemaker.

elo

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:18:28 PM #
The OMAP1510 also includes a separate 200MHz DSP to take the load off the 175MHz main processor - it'll be plenty fast.
RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:44:41 PM #
Do you know if OS 5.0 has part that take advantage of this DSP?

Sony uses Intel's PXA210 which run at 200mHz. (read the pdf file) Intel has multimedia extension which is different than TI OMAP dsp. so can you also verify that OS 5.0 has part that take advantage of this extension?

or are we talking about OS 5.0 only support the V5 arm codes.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 6:06:26 PM #
I only think back to all of the older AMD vs. Intel arguments where indeed a X mhz Intel was faster than an X mhz AMD.

I just can't imagine that TI's and Intel's ARM implementations are going to be the same, MHZ for MHZ. I'd bet on TI being slower...but it'd be great to be wrong.

RE: Coolest gadget ever
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:37:57 PM #
I'm sure using fastCPU or afterburner (if there is a version for the unit) will allow you to slow down to 40mhz or something for using memo pad... using memo pad at 200mhz seems ridiculous to me.

anyhow, underclocking would surely increase battery life greatly. hopefully the unit will display and react properly if underclocked to 40mhz for all apps but the intensive ones (camera, video, games, etc)

First Post!

Bartman007 @ 9/30/2002 9:52:30 AM #
w00t w00t

I got the first post =)

GJ Adam and Ryan for bring us this story. This sounds like a pretty sweet machine. My main critism is the CF slot deal, as has been stated by too many people. It's also too bad that you can't record movies at a higher rez, but it is quite a feat to be able to MPEG4 on a Palm OS handheld.
I wonder about the battery life on this thing though.

Keep of the good work Sony, and Palm, get your OS 5 handheld on the market soon, I don't wanna see you disappear.

Peace,
-Bartman007

P.S. Please don't start any flames based on my comments, I tried to make them constructive critism.

DOH!!!!!!
Bartman007 @ 9/30/2002 9:59:35 AM #
I didn't get the first post =(

Stupid shower, I'm never taking one again.

Peace,
-Bartman007

RE: First Post!
cyn @ 9/30/2002 9:59:47 AM #
here's hoping - as we all are - that the 802.11b is specifically listed as the only supported device just because its the only one it'll work with right out of the box, and other vendors can easily make theirs compatible.

still, wonder about the memory.

RE: First Post!
ardee @ 9/30/2002 10:03:11 AM #
Sorry man, I stole that first post position from you (unintentionally, I swear). But please, don't stop taking showers. :-)


this german site has got some pics posted...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:05:11 AM #
Xscale-based
frauen1 @ 9/30/2002 11:41:17 AM #
According to this site the device the device has a 200MHz Intel XScale processor (not a Dragonball MX-1).

RE: this german site has got some pics posted...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:45:25 PM #
Thanks for the pic's! Sweet PDA, I'm glad they kept the design, it's the best palm os device to date! These sony guys must have people locked up in a closet to design this stuff!

Dimensions of new Sony's

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:14:46 AM #
I noticed that in the description, the thickness of the new NX series is almost an inch thick....is this how thick the current NR series is? I could have sworn that they were thinner....the handhelds do sound good....even though i favour palm handhelds, but 0.94 inches is way too thick!
RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
rldunn @ 9/30/2002 10:23:06 AM #
I just measured my NR and it's 5/8 of an inch thick.

RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:32:54 AM #
From what I can amke out (from pictures)The extra thickness is just around the CF slot area. Still a whole load of excess material, if all you can use it for is the Sony brand only WiFi card.

If Sony really have crippled this thing not to work with other CF cards, then I will have to look elsewhere. I wanted to use a memorycard and Bluetooth at the same time. Possibly Palm, possibly something else. It's just that 320 x 480 display is so tempting.

Zuber

RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:45:22 AM #
Is that the thickness when its closed, or when its open?
RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:13:33 AM #
Yeah, the Sony's did sound good....take a look at the picture, and you'll see the extra thickness where the CF card goes....but it is real bad that the only device you can use is Sony's proprietary additions....I will look into the new Palms, especially if the thickness is minimal...i would hope they had a 0.4" thickness...but its not to be. The 320x480 and virtual grafitti is nice, but 320x320 from palm will have to work....plus I can use the SD cards I already have from my 505! and will use on my Kyocera 7135, when that thing comes out!


RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:22:17 AM #
Actually, I have one question. With the previous version of these devices (the NR series), you could flip the screen completely around, and have it rest on the 'back' of the handheld. How can you do that with this, and have the lid be completely on the back? If you look at the pictures, it seems odd that it will work and flip around perfectly...but i'll wait until they are released!
RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:47:21 AM #
>>> With the previous version of these devices (the NR series), you could flip the screen completely around, and have it rest on the 'back' of the handheld.<<<

I think you have this bit confused. It should work just the same. The CF housing is on the underside of the device. The Screen portion flips and sits ob the keyboard.

Zuber

RE: Dimensions of new Sony's
cyn @ 9/30/2002 12:14:43 PM #
yeah - with the 'previous version' you couldn't flip it completely around, you could flip it about 160-170 degrees, and you could then turn the display 180 degrees, and flip it back down in place.

this will naturally support the same action

:-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:09:14 AM #
It's really increadible, that again sony will only bring out limited wireless capabilities like the wireless lan-card for their proprietary expansion slot.

Japanese users had already for the n710 and back to the s-series a bluetooth module (pega-bt700) which attached to the bottom of the device and which did let you send and receive emails while having access to your data and apps on the memory-stick.

When you visit the japanes sony site you will see, that even the t- and nr-series can be upgraded with an communication sled and that there is a bluetoot compact-flash-adapter theire.

But sony believes, that the professional user in usa or europe will go on swapping the memory-stick against the bluetoot-memory-stick. And this even when recording photo's and films with the new nx-series on the memory-stick (imagine to free up ram, copy the files photo's or films to the internal memor, copy the appropriate communciation-apps form memory-stick to ram, then swap to the bluetooth-ms send the files afterwards put your memory-stick back in place.

Therefore this will not be a easy choice between the nx70 and the "tungsten t" with it's build in bluetooth and probably much higher battery-life (the nx70 pdf says 5 hours with backlight off).

PS: I already wrote to sony germany, but who cares. I never had been such a hard choice for a new model before.

RE: :-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS
dmkozak @ 9/30/2002 11:21:56 AM #
[QUOTE]But sony believes, that the professional user in usa or europe will go on swapping the memory-stick against the bluetoot-memory-stick.[/QUOTE]

Maybe Sony shares marketing research with Toshiba?

RE: :-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:33:58 AM #
"Maybe Sony shares marketing research with Toshiba?"

I hope you are being sarcstic. Toshiba PPC's are available with built in WiFi or dual expansion (with the exception of the e310). Toshiba pioneered built in wireless with the e740.

RE: :-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:02:48 PM #
Yes that's the humor of sony.

Take look at what's available in japan (scroll down to pega-cf60, looks like a mobile-data add on card):

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PEG/CLIEGEAR/index.html

or look at this one, looks like a bluetooth-cf-card (I don't know japanese, but the text say's bluetooth, scroll down to the 6. picture from top):

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PEG/PEG-T650C/mobile.html


RE: :-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:32:01 PM #
OK, looking at those links, it may well be possible to get all those items to work with the NX models. I assume the NX will be sold in Japan, so I can't see Sony not making these devices compatible with it. May have to use Japanese versions like with the Bluetooth Memory Stick until come overseas.

Only concern would be battery life.

Zuber

RE: :-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:10:57 PM #
I can tell you about my experiences of getting japanese accessories getting to work :-(

I got the PEGA-BT700 bluetooth-module for the Clie PEG-N770C/E (European Version of the N760). It worked finde with the dial-up-networking. But as soon as I wanted to use a SMS-Program, I found out, that every bluetooth device got it's own drivers and sdk (software development kit). The SMS-Application which could not use the standard dial-up-networking, did only work with the palm-bluetooth-sd-card and the bluetooth-memory-stick. The developper had, and I can understand that, no interest to do some special code rewriting for me, neither did they want to buy a PEGA-BT700 for test purposes.

RE: :-( Swap again Blueetooth-MS and MS
Palm_Otaku @ 9/30/2002 5:14:49 PM #
I'm also very disappointed to see that Bt isn't integrated on the system board, though I'm hopeful that Sony will release a CF-Bt module in addition to the WiFi one.

re: the (Japan-only) CF sleds: what I've been able to glean is that these are only compatible with Japanese cellular-system wireless modems and landline modem CF cards -- no WiFi, no CF memory, etc. as there are no drivers available.

Current Sony Bluetooth options are the clipon PEGA-BT700 module (for N & S-series; and Bt 1.0 spec only) and the PEGA-MSB1 (which takes up the MS slot and costs a small fortune!) :(

As a footnote: the iPAQ 3870 was actually the first wireless-integrated PDA (Bluetooth) even though the initial release was unbelievably buggy...

Some Bluetooth and 802.11 facts
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 3:08:27 AM #
Some facts:

-US folks forget that the Toshiba e740 serie has an integrated 802.11/wifi model AND an integrated Bluetooth model (European version):

Toshiba e740 Bluetooth Pocket PC includes an Intel PXA250 400MHz processor and 64MB RAM, a CompactFlash II slot and a SecureDigital slot with Pocket PC 2002 as the OS. With integrated Bluetooth wireless connectivity, the e740 offers the flexibility you need to easily check e-mail, view files from the company network and surf the Web without the hassle of cords or cables.
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=TOSH_E740

802.11 and Bluetooth are here. But to INTEGRATE these new wireless technologies into mobile devices isn't an easy task as it looks like. It seems , unlike the Bluetooth-proficient Fujitsu Siemens Pocket Loox, that the Bluetooth 740 includes only two profiles!? (serial modems and dial-up networking).

-PDA's with Bluetooth integrated:

1. Toshiba e740 Bluetooth Pocket PC
2. Compaq iPAQ H3970 Pocket PC
3. Fujitsu Siemens LOOX Pocket PC
4. Compaq iPAQ H3870 Pocket PC with Bluetooth
5. Intermec 700 Color Pocket PC (integrated Bluetooth/802.11/GSM,GPRS: now shipping)
http://www.wirelessweek.com/index.asp?layout=story&articleId=NEb0925123.500
6. Palm Tungsten T (coming)

-The first PDA's with integrated 802.11 i know were the Casio IT-700STD Industrial Cassiopeia and Sync VOVID pda. Did you know them? They weren't that successfull because of battery draining.

Casio IT-700STD Industrial Cassiopeia
http://casio.com/personalpcs/product.cfm?section=145&product=1985&display=21&cid=4672
Sync VOVID pda
http://www.sycrf.co.kr/syctrn/new/english/e_product2.html

-Sony will introduce the PEGA-MSB1, a Memory Stick that adds Bluetooth connectivity to its CLIE line of PDAs, to the European market. I'd be surprised if Sony chose to not introduce the PEGA-MSB1 into the US market as well.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/urltrurl?lp=de_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fdata%2Fdz-30.08.02-000%2F
http://www.sony-europe.com/presscenter/PressShow.x?articleid=816

-.....Bluetooth access points present a very attractive alternative to Wi-Fi for many applications that value security and low power consumption. I strongly urge you to consider evaluating this technology very carefully before blindly jumping on the Wi-Fi bandwagon… especially if that bandwagon runs on batteries.
http://www.planetpdamag.com/content/052202rt.htm

-Bluetooth vs 802.11 "Battle" Bogus: Report
http://www.80211-planet.com/news/article/0,4000,1481_998131,00.html

Bluetooth and 802.11 are two different technologies for different needs/uses. Shortly:

Bluetooth=PAN=low power=cable replacement (+ automatic synchronization)=supports voice right away=mobile (threw Telecom Networks: GSM, GPRS, CDMA....)

802.11/wifi=LAN=higher power=battery sapping=networking (no automatic synchronization)=doesn't support voice right away=not mobile enough (limited to Open Access Points)

Bluetooth and (not Versus) Wi-Fi (802.11): Wi-Fi And Bluetooth As Complementary, Not Competing, Technologies
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=33477

"802.11 NOT the one-size-fits-all wireless technology"
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=41543

Compact Flash? Not!

Got Mojo? @ 9/30/2002 10:25:05 AM #
How can it be called a Compact Flash slot when its not compatible with CF devices? Its just a proprietary Sony slot that happens to be the same size as CF.

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:40:28 AM #
It is probably not proprietary. In the past, the T-series machines has an optional adapter of the same nature (non-memory CF). It can be used to plug in CF-size data network card (64kbps packet data) from different mobile operators, and those card are not tailor for Clie, but a general CF card that can be used on PPC, Notebook, etc. Therefore I believe the "CF" slot for NX70 will be the same. I expect there will be no problem to plug in common CF modem card.
RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:00:02 AM #
It is NOT a CF slot, and the term Compact Flash should not be used to describe it.

I wonder if the CF Association can do anything to stop this. Probably not since the CF standard is one of the (if not the) most open slot standards. There is probably too much room in all of its openness for Sony to twist and foul it into their proprietary wishes.

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
Got Mojo? @ 9/30/2002 11:06:04 AM #
I guess they keep memory cards from working so you'll have to use memory sticks.

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:50:42 AM #
>>>I guess they keep memory cards from working so you'll have to use memory sticks.<<<

If they only stop memory cards from working, I could handle that. Not ideal, but not a total disaster either. The question is, will they let you use other CF peripherals, and make it open, so that you can easily write drivers. If so I can use a memory stick and get CF Bluetooth card for around another £60.

Zuber

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:15:40 PM #
My guess is that it is a compliant CF slot, but Sony is only providing drivers for a single card.

Third party developers could develop drivers for their own devices.

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
cyn @ 9/30/2002 12:16:06 PM #
yes it *IS* most likely a perfectly normal compact flash slot.

hardware devices have these things called 'drivers' that one needs to allow ones device to talk to an otherwise unknown device. Just saying "It's an 802.11b device" doesn't help because not all 802.11b devices are the same - even within a specific companys product line they can be different.

I'm about 98% sure that this is a normal compactflash slot, and they only have DRIVERS for their 802.11b card, which isn't to say that third parties couldn't make drivers for THEIR cards.

(the other 2% wonders about some kind of crippling in relation to memory, but as far as non-memory devices, I'm certain it's open - and on top of that, I don't see how they could cripple the memory factor, but maybe they could make it so it's not directly visible to the underlying OS (effectively, but not truly, crippling it))

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:23:57 PM #
>>>yes it *IS* most likely a perfectly normal compact flash slot.<<<

Is that based on solid information you have, or is it based on the "Surely they can't be that stupid" principle :)

My other concern is that writing drivers won't be easy unless information is provided by Sony.

If you are correct, then it might still be possible to do data transfers from CF memory to MS memory allowing some sort of data swapping.

Zuber

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
huggy @ 9/30/2002 12:38:54 PM #
Actually the Springboard slot was and evolution from the compact flash (they share the pinouts)... I believe it's possible that Sony has only included the specific pins that their wi-fi card uses...

-------------- huggy ---------------
RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:14:43 PM #
Maybe Sony has adopted the Springboard slot! :)

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:41:30 PM #
Is it said officially anywhere that it IS a CF slot? I just glanced over the .PDF and I didn't see "CF" in there anywhere.

It's listed as a "Wireless Communication Slot", but not a CF slot.

Since this hasn't been announced just yet, how do we know what Sony's official moniker is for it? Heck, they could call it a "Wireless Communication Slot in CF form factor" or something.

Just asking.

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
IanJD @ 9/30/2002 4:57:51 PM #
On page 23 of the PDF, it states that the Communication Slot is a "CF Type II".

RE: Compact Flash? Not!
Roxanne @ 12/8/2002 10:58:51 AM #
Where do I find that .pdf? I found .pdfs of operating instructions, handbook and troubleshooting q&a but nothing like that on any of those page 23s.

Missing detail...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:25:58 AM #
Zeit forgot to mention that the devices boast a twenty-minute battery life with the backlight off.
RE: Missing detail...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:38:58 AM #
Yeah, I was just thinking this. "Coolest gadget ever" and the battery life will be a couple of hours max...no thanks! There's little point to a handheld if you have to leave it plugged in all the time - might as well get a laptop.

With the WiFi card you will doing good to get 45 minutes.......

RE: Missing detail...
Altema @ 9/30/2002 1:29:45 PM #
The battery life is supposed to be 5 hours with the sidelight off. Never seen ANYBODY use a Sony with the sidelight off, so the "normal usage" will probably be closer to three hours.

My problem with this, is that I have a device that has a 1024x768 32Bit screen, plays all media formats including full screen DVD video, has a 1.8Ghz Pentium 4 processor with 3 cooling fans... and it runs for almost 3 hours with the screen ON.

RE: Missing detail...
iebnn @ 9/30/2002 4:09:24 PM #
Yeah, but you've got a HUGE battery in that thing.

RE: Missing detail...
Altema @ 9/30/2002 4:37:26 PM #
Yeah, it is huge, the battery alone probably weighs more the the NX plus cradle! The point was that we have a PDA that would not last as long as a high end laptop unplugged.

I would have thought that, with the extra bulge of the WiFi slot, they would have just extended the bulge to the bottom of the device and added another battery or a larger battery.

Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:27:33 AM #
Keep the virtual Grafitti, drop the toy camera and, to be really really nice, drop the price also: $500 buys A LOT of PPC nowadays, whether the software is good or not.

If you waved goodbye to that hideous memory stick and switched to SD, so much the better.

And if you sold it in Europe at the same price as in the US, then it would really be rosy.

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
Fzara2000 @ 9/30/2002 10:38:48 AM #
That would be nice.
A t665 form factor, but OS5 and the same resolution and specs as the NX70.
Well, I guess some of us still cant get the latest OS5 model from Sony as its a waste of 600 dollars!

"Now thats just PRIME!"
RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:45:30 AM #
Agree. NO clamshell. However, I like the camera!!! Meanwhile, why all the fuss over the mem stick? Works dandy for me.

E>

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
Fzara2000 @ 9/30/2002 10:49:46 AM #
The camera is definitely a keeper. At that resoultion, it could be finally used as a productive addon to the PDA.

"Now thats just PRIME!"
RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
sandbuck @ 9/30/2002 10:55:13 AM #
Give them 2 mos. And hey can we change to T-series buttons at some point?? The buttons on the low end S machines are buch better.

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
Sweetlu @ 9/30/2002 11:18:05 AM #
Yes, yes, High Res+ in a non-clamshell.

Forget about the T series, sony should use the SL form factor. Now that, my friends, would be the mother of all handhelds.

___________________________________
Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:21:45 AM #
The bad thing about Memory Stick is that it is a proprietary Sony format which almost nobody else uses. However you can use SD in MP3 players, cellphones, digital cameras, Pocket PCs (God forbid!), Sharp Zaurus, Palm palms, you name it.

A small flash card is pretty inexpensive, but it would be nice to be able to spend serious money in a large capacity card just once, and be able to transfer data easily among different devices.

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:32:52 PM #
Amen! I have one of the first retail NR70's (non-V) and the hinge is more of a hassle than what the 'wow' factor is worth. It takes longer for me to look something up than it does my wife one her sj30, (I have not yet been able to get used to the KB.. Now I remember why I gave up on Psion, I did not like having to type while standing up) I would LOVE VG, on a regular slate type of form factor, this would also give access to the app buttons which sony did not think to replicate on the 'screen' side of the device.. THAT would have been superprime sweet...
RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:14:35 PM #
I couldn't have said it better myself! A PDA should be exactly that. Not many people are looking for the magic (all-in-one) computing device (PDA, cell phone, digital camera, electric toothbrush, pencil sharpener, radar detector). C'mon people! Thumbboards are totally lame, too!

I say: no camera, no moving parts! Moving parts = broken device! Same for the sliding Tungsten from Palm. God, if only they would have opted for VG on a m515 sized device.

m525
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:02:48 PM #
Where is my m525?

m5xx form factor, Hi-Res, OS5/ARM, 32MB RAM, Jog-Dial

this is all I ask for.....but instead they give me Dungsten......

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:04:52 PM #
C'mon guys! Some people DO like the clamshell device! At least with the NR/NX models you have an option! You CAN leave it in tablet mode, ya know.

But seriously, do you all DOUBT that with Sony's rapid product cycle that they're NOT going to release a tablet OS5 device? That's just plain silly. :) They've still got the T665 to make obsolete! I'd give it until next month!

But seriously, some people find the clamshell design useful (like me). I'm serious, too, and I know I'm not the only one.

So please don't tell them to get rid of a product line or feature set just because YOU don't like it. There are more people on this earth, ya know.

Besides, Sony already has a product line for you, so let them evolve that.

RE: Sony, please, give us a non-clamshell OS5 Clié!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:47:26 PM #
I agree, why not have an OS 5 Clie w/ Virtual graffiti and like the T665


Fjl
fjl307@bugme.net
groups.msn.com/PDAPocketPCForum

Could we use larges CF into it?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:38:34 AM #
Hi

Could we use larges CF on it? Such as SanDisk 1.0GB CompactFlash Card? Will be marvelous put several mp3's ,mpeg's and others stuffs into it! Don't we think?

Regards

RE: Could we use larges CF into it?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:44:34 AM #
if someone can create a hack, and drivers, its possible.
RE: Could we use larges CF into it?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:46:42 AM #
I keep seeing people post "someone will hack it to work with CF drives" but I'm not sure this will be possible. CF drives are basicly just IDE storage devices. If the hardware for reading an IDE device is missing (which I assume it must be) I don't think you can make it work.
RE: Could we use larges CF into it?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:08:02 AM #
Highly unlikely. The Palm OS is difficult to develop drivers for, since the required info is only available to licensees. Furthermore, Sony will never make the protocol to talk to the slot availble to developers. Between those two, it will be far more difficult to develop any kind of real CF support than it would be under any other OS I can think of. Add to that the very small quantities this device will sell in, and I can pretty easily say that any real CF functionality without developer support from Sony is highly unlikely at best.

No. Missing the boat.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:48:30 AM #
I bought my NR70V and packed it with all the goodies:

movies, hi res pics, mp3's...I never used them.

What I really need in a Palm device is much what a Treo gives, the ability to get email on the road, and browse a few websites, like weather, traffic, ebay, cnn, that kind of thing.

Give me a Treo with 320 x 320, a stick, and that will bring the Palm to its "pencil" level... a pencil is perfect from 100 years ago. All the other work on pens was really small incremental work.

Now, what I want in a laptop is where Sony is going, but I really don't need a laptop now.

RE: No. Missing the boat.
Phil @ 9/30/2002 11:09:51 AM #
Agreed, I packed my t625c with almost 100 MB of software (games, 2 office apps, ebooks etc.). I hardly use 10 programms most of the time (datebk5, AvantGo, Bejewled, Handstory, PalmReader, Docs2Go with DatavizMail, FunSMS, SplashID, SuperNames, MegaLauncher and some Hacks).

Sony, please please please give us a T625c shaped device with

- Bluetooth
- Better Buttons
- Better Cover
- Maybe OS5
- 16 MB
- Better batteries

Most users won´t need a camera (I have a Konica with MS and SD-Card - so I pop the MS into my T625c and watch or email the pics), movies (as long as it does not support DivX and a 800 MB Memorystick costs $100) and clamshell. A wireless LAN option would be nice but not really necessary.

Phil

RE: No. Missing the boat.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:47:21 PM #
The form factor would be really good for several vertical markets, such as insurance or real estate. But I doubt that sony will put the feature sets in to target them (cell + gps + long battery life).

What I see right now is an entertainment device stuck somewhere between a real PDA, and a full laptop.

If Handspring brings out a Treo 90 + 320x320 + ARM/OS5, I'm probably buying.

Todd.

Perfect to Passing

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:30:28 AM #
I would love to get one of the new units but I have to have Bluetooth. I want my email on the road. Please, give us another version w/built in bluetooth. Please!!!!!!!! I want my email.
RE: Perfect to Passing
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:16:39 AM #
While we're all waiting on Bluetooth....Has anyone here actually tested a Bluetooth-enabled PDA with a Bluetooth-enable cell phone? Does the combo work?

E.

RE: Perfect to Passing
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:31:07 AM #
Good question. How does the email work. Can the PDA's beep when it comes in (assuming the phone is on) or do you have to "Go Get It"). Why doesn't sony have a 705 type?
RE: Perfect to Passing
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:56:31 AM #
What do you mean waiting for bluetooth?

I use my m505 with the bluetooth SD and Ericsson T39m. In Europe bluetooth is being used, and SonyEricsson's phones usually have it. It couldn't be easier to connect your PDA to an internet-capable phone. Using infra-red is a pain in the ass, having to align the two ports. With bluetooth, the phone can be anywhere (i.e. in your pocket, briefcase, etc), AND you can still make phone calls while connected to the internet!

Couple it with the widely available high speed GPRS, and you have email and internet anywhere you go.

Wi-Fi is great for when you are in a corporate lan (if you're lucky to have one where you work), but if you really want access anywhere bluetooth is essential.

RE: Perfect to Passing
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:05:27 PM #
Sony Clie has been used by a number of people with a Bluetooth Memory Stick, including use with a phone. Take a look at this thread as an example. Main cause of problems has been attempting to use it with Japanese instructions.

www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7606

The main complaint,can't expand memory at the same time. Hence the frustration when Sony announces that the new version will not have Bluetooth built in, but the CF Shaped slot will be Sony Wi-Fi only.

Zuber

Tablet PC

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:16:48 AM #
What we've got here is a prototype tablet PC.

This is a computer to be used while sitting on the couch.
With a wifi connection to my cable modem, I can scan web sites, read email, check out Mike Pizza's career batting stats, look up flights, etc.

I can also send off quick pics and small movies that I've taken during the day to my friend's email account. And I've got a small typewriter to make quick notes easier.

For this, I'll have to pay $600 for the device, at least $100 for the CF wifi card and another $100+ for an ethernet wireless lan. And some other unspecified cost for a battery charger installed by the couch.

$900, we're probably talking here. Pretty darned pricey. Close to a laptop. But I've got a really small form factor to compensate.

Here are the drawbacks: Bulky thing to carry in my pocket (especially with the new wifi slot). Limited number of MP3s, photos, videos to carry around on those 128mb memory sticks (I won't carry more than one. It will get lost.) Wireless only works in my house, some airports and starbucks (for the moment). No bluetooth backup for connecting via a cell phone.

Still, it's a tempting proposition. Fortunately, my bank account doesn't have the room for a snap purchase. Maybe some of my concerns will be answered before I get enough money rounded up.

RE: Tablet PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:18:43 PM #
Mike Pizza? LOL
Damn, I dont even know how to spell it. I think though its Piazza.
RE: Tablet PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:50:12 PM #
I've been calling him Pizza-boy now for years. Guess it a was matter of the mind over the fingers.

New NX Series

Draken-Korin @ 9/30/2002 11:26:56 AM #
You know, I have to say, when Sony first entered the PDA market, I was excited. They have come up with a lot of really innovative ideas, and hteir hardware is generally top notch.

That being said, I most likely won't buy another Sony until they really start innovating again.

Proprietary CF slot? Why would I want that?

What I really want is to hear that Sony is coming out with the high capacity memory sticks we've been promised for years, that there would be a few more strategic partnerships to come up with new accessories, like a GPS module, etc.

I still own an N760C, and I love it, but when I see what's available for the Palms, I'm disappointed in my Sony. A CF sled would be nice, if it supported any CF, SD/MMC would be nice, for SDIO bluetooth, and I would really LOVE to see sony come out with a device with more than one slot, without crippling the second slot.

These are the things which are necessary for me to consider upgrading my 760. I need:

-Multiple slots (non-crippled, SDIO, CF IDE, etc)
-Storage solutions up to 512M+ (for music/video)
-Wireless (Bluetooth/Wifi)
-Colour, hires(+?)
-Battery life of 3-5 hours of hard use.

All of these are realistic, but Sony isn't listening, so I'm starting to look out for other manufacturers who might hit the mark. Sorry Sony.

-----

Rob Hines Jr.
"I drank what?"
Socrates

RE: New NX Series
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:02:17 PM #
Hmm if you are looking to stick with a PalmOS-based device, it sounds like the Tungsten might be very close to your needs.

-Multiple slots (non-crippled, SDIO, CF IDE, etc)

Doesn't have multiple slots, but does have internal bluetooth so you can use that along with a SD card.

-Storage solutions up to 512M+ (for music/video)

SD goes up to 512...

-Wireless (Bluetooth/Wifi)

Built-in bluetooth, there will eventually be 802.11 for SDIO I'm sure...

-Colour, hires(+?)

Yep.

-Battery life of 3-5 hours of hard use.

From what I've heard, the Tungsten will give much more battery life than the new Sony- probably right around that range you mention.

RE: New NX Series
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:30:05 PM #
If only it included Hi-Res+ (320 x 480) I wouldn't even be reading this thread.

Zuber

RE: New NX Series
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 6:11:35 PM #
Yeah too bad. We keep getting closer to the "ultimate" Palm device, but still haven't quite made it there yet...

Not Surprised

ahecht @ 9/30/2002 11:52:54 AM #
"Surprisingly, Palm may not be the first company to the market with an OS 5 device."

How is that surprising? Palm has always been slow to innovate.

RE: Not Surprised
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:06:20 PM #
Yeah. Can still remember the fiasco when I waited for my m505 after they pre-announced.
RE: Not Surprised
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:20:27 PM #
Slow to innovate, sure. And Sony did innovate by using the OS that Palm wrote.
RE: Not Surprised
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 6:35:33 PM #
Sony innovates, Palm stagnates.
RE: Not Surprised
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 7:27:26 PM #
And Palm innovated by looking at a Sony PDA
"And Palm innovated by looking at a Sony PDA..."
orb2069 @ 10/1/2002 10:11:51 PM #
You must mean this one:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/magiclink/sonyml_specs.htm

...Since that's the only PDA that Sony had out before Palm released the 1000, right?

It sure shows the Sony Mindset, though - Lots of audio capability, multimedia, questionably usefull features and an crappy battery life.

October 2nd date

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:08:01 PM #
Isn't that the date they will be announcing the product not releasing it?

RE: October 2nd date
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:22:46 PM #
thats what the PDF said.
RE: October 2nd date
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:38:08 PM #
ED:
So which is it? We seem to be having conflicting information. Is it announced on Oct 2nd with a November release or is it going to be announced/released on the 2nd?
RE: October 2nd date
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:27:47 PM #
the pdf states "Early November" as the release date

Gary Duke
http://www.aurete.com

Problem with NX

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:57:00 AM #
-what is with the Size? It doesn't make any progress from the previous model, it got bigger with the additional CF slot.

-proprietary CF? proprietary MS? The whole idea of a common slot is so one can interchange the peripherals regardless of brand and device class, not to mention cheaper and better CF/SD compare to MS.

-Battery. 5 hrs without backlight? So what does it mean? 20 seconds with full backlight, mpeg4 + sound + wireless?

-Non replaceable battery. (what happen after whole year of intense charge/discharge cycle? splurge another $600 for new PDA?)

-We want PXA 250, not 210. 210 is the little brother with more limited functionalities, plus PXA 250 can be throttle up and down from 400 -> 100mHz

-Is the damned thing upgradable? OS5.0 -> OS 6.0? at $599 it's the price of a desktop computer, it better act like a long term investment instead of 3 months disposable gadget. (no really, it's not an organizer with that battery and size, it's a computer)

-non integrated wireless. At $600, all models of PDA come with integrated wireless. (WiFi or BT)

-Price. 200mHz + 16mb should be priced at $299-399. Toshiba E330 with PXA250 runs at 300mHZ with 64 mb goes for $299, also the new view sonic, 300mHz/32Mb goes for $299. (is the magensium casing cost THAT much more money?)

-Software collections are pathetics. (realy, mailbox tah can send mpeg is a feature? that's like touting a car's wheels as a feature) How about new spiffy office up with some wireless capability, or software that can turn the NX to a videophone with a CDMA CF card? (woops forget the proprietary CF)

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:21:30 PM #
Ahh, I completely agree with you.
I was looking forward for Sony, but seems like i'll have to buy this tungsten junk from Palm until SOny starts to innovate once again.
What is this Toshiba E330 you talk about? Has it been released yet? PLEASE! GIVE US MORE INFORMATION!
RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:53:43 PM #
I agree. The biggest problem for me will be the size of this thing and the mediocre battery life. I'll have to wait and see the reviews.

"Now thats just SLIME!"

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:02:10 PM #
>>realy, mailbox tah can send mpeg is a feature? <<

Imagine the $$$ to send a mpeg through your phone!

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:52:52 PM #
Everything that we've seen so far makes all of the OS5 units from Palm and Sony look like flimsy pieces of junk. The m515 is starting to look better and better. The above poster was right, this is ceasing to be a PDA and becoming a very fragile overpriced pocket computer. The non-standard CF slot and the added thickness kill the deal completely for me.
RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:07:08 PM #
"-Non replaceable battery. (what happen after whole year of intense charge/discharge cycle? splurge another $600 for new PDA?)"

I don't think this is really an issue. I've never had a modern device with an internal li-ion stop holding a charge, its certainly been over a year now...

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:46:55 PM #
I love all these Sony bashers. While you will be using the inferior products, we the Nx owners will be humming!

All these years, these guys bashed Palm for not creating the hardware that matches PocketPC, and now Sony has surpassed PocketPC, not they are complaining about Sony.

You can't please everyone, Sony. Keep up the great work.

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:52:28 PM #
Can you specify what you mean by "non replaceable battery"? I thought one COULD replace the NR/NX's battery. Isn't that what that little screw-in door is on the side? Am I wrong (I easily could be, it's happened MANY times before, so . . .)

Granted, you'd still have to buy the right sized battery for it, but you'd probably just have to send it on back to Sony or something.

It's not as easy as walking into a grocery store and picking up a new one, but I don't doubt it's possible.

But hey, that's just me and goofy half-knowledge.

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:10:03 PM #
I agree with these problems you listed.

Adding another slot makes the MS slot bearable as you will probably use it mostly for memory, but limiting that new slot to their WiFi card is nuts. Bad move. They call it a 'Wireless Communication Slot'?

I like WiFi, but look at all the other non-WiFi wireless services out there. I am in Japan and the DDI Pocket Air H" services is where it is at! (What Ricochet could have been.) This works EVERYWHERE, even in subways. A 128k CF card was just announced.
http://www.ddipocket.co.jp/syohin/ah-n401c.html

What about GPRS, 3G, Bluetooth, and every other standard?

My next PalmOS device might be another Handera. I am not going to be getting something that is crippled or inferior and am willing to sit and wait for something decent.

For some reason these guys just don't want to take my money which is usually as easy as stealing Candy from a baby.

And when is Sony ever going to come out with a MS card bigger than 128MB. I have a 256MB SD card and am thinking of getting 512.

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:16:17 PM #
> and now Sony has surpassed PocketPC

In bulk and poor battery life. There is nothing about this device you couldn't do a year ago on PocketPC.

RE: Problem with NX
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 3:26:31 AM #
>>>In bulk and poor battery life. There is nothing about this device you couldn't do a year ago on PocketPC.<<<

Ignoring the built in Camera, Keyboard and 320 X 480 screen that is.

Zuber

Error in Article

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:02:19 PM #
I believe that the video recorder encodes at 2MB/**MINUTE**, not 2MB/sec.

Might wanna fix that.

RE: Error in Article
Admin @ 9/30/2002 4:12:23 PM #
got it thank you.

-Ryan
webmaster@palminfocenter.com

Convictive... What 's that mean?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 12:56:07 PM #
Perhaps the author intended to say "convincing."

Who sells PEGA WL100 CF card?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:39:27 PM #
Looked on Sony's site and can't find the PEGA WL100 - 802.11b CF card. Anyone know how much it is and where you can buy it?
RE: Who sells PEGA WL100 CF card?
Ed @ 9/30/2002 1:51:08 PM #
The WL100 only works with the NX series. It won't be available until the NX series is.

---
News Editor

Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:39:02 PM #
Please, panasonic, make a palmOS device with same screen as sony but non-clamshell, keep the digital camera, voice recorder and the most important...SD slot...

Nuno Mateiro

RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 2:23:19 PM #
Panasonic???
RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:36:05 PM #
Last time I checked Panasonic isn't even a licensee. Of course, it would be VERY insteresting if they were. They've got some great designs and I tend to prefer them over Sony for VCRs and DVD. I'm not sure if that'll translate over to PDAs.
RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 6:26:56 PM #
Ahh....more companies=more competition.
More competition=more PDA buyers.
More PDA buyers makes my PDA not so special anymore. :(
RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 7:29:54 PM #
if and only if Panasonic and Sony both make Palm PDA, one can only imagine when will Palm INC. and Handspring goes out of business
How about Samsung?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 9:06:18 PM #
They make Palm based phones, but how about a regular PDA device? They've already got the Palm license.

The more QUALITY competition we have the better.

Samsung ......
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 10:00:44 PM #
They suck seriously .. they are just a Sony wanna be.
RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
jjsoh @ 10/1/2002 12:57:44 AM #
: They suck seriously .. they are just a Sony wanna be.

Yup, I agree. Those Samsung Palm OS phones are crap compared with the Sony ones. They just wanna be like Sony. Look, the first name starts with an 'S' too. If that's not blantant copycattednesseses, I don't know what is.

In all seriousness though, I would be curious as to what one would look like coming from Samsung. I think their Sprint cell phones are very cool and unique (though I can't say the same for their Palm OS phones), so a PDA from Samsung would grab my interest. I mean, if they can create something like this:

http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/01/h110102samsung_tablet.html

Then why not a Palm OS PDA? Just a thought. :)

Jim

RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 2:20:57 AM #
http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/01/h110102samsung_tablet.html

Whats so special about this ... just a very generic design ... NEC and Fujitsu make thousands of things that looks similiar to that everyday.

And you think Samsung phones are great ?? ... sprint phone... O yeah You are stucked in US for so long that you either lose a sense of style or just never had one to begin with.

RE: Panasonic!!!!!!!!!!!!! come on!!!!!!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 2:26:14 AM #
http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/01/h110102samsung_tablet.html

Whats so special about this ... just a very generic design ... NEC and Fujitsu make thousands of things that looks similiar to that everyday.

And you think Samsung phones are great ?? ... sprint phone... O yeah You are stucked in US for so long that you either lose a sense of style or just never had one to begin with.

Disappointed...I won't buy

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 1:43:12 PM #
I am disappointed with the new unit, primarily due to the proprietary CF slot which makes the unit too thick, and is useless to me (since I don't want a wireless device).

If it was a standard CF slot, I would reconsider, but again, the size increase to an already huge PDA is a near show stopper for me.

Battery life doesn't help either...couldn't they have used the CF slot space for a larger battery instead?

Too bad, because before I saw the specs I was planning to buy the unit, and even held off buying the prior model because I knew the OS 5 unit would be out soon.

Who Cares About The Specs!!!

DarkDynamo @ 9/30/2002 1:52:28 PM #
My main concern about the NX70V & NX60 is did Sony correct the Memory Stick problem that plagued the NR series? I will not pay $600+ to then send it back to Sony to fix something that should have been checked before production!!!!

RE: Who Cares About The Specs!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:09:13 PM #
Yes they did. There was a fix for it a while back. It was a software problem, but if it was partially hardware, they would have fixed it.

It's Sony of course they'll fix it!

Not surprising to me..........

speed-angel @ 9/30/2002 2:07:30 PM #
After all Palm is not the first machine to introduce Hi-Res+ anyway. Why would you think they will be the one annoncing the first Palm OS5 machine?

I think this machine is good except two things:1) the battery life will be bad and 2)It would be quite heavy. I just hope the T-series team move faster and create a new CLIE with V-graffiti and BT with good battery life.

One other question: if that slot can only accommodate one type of CF card for 802.11, why not make it part of the machine instead of having a slot where people can ultimately can fit one thing in? Pricing? If that's it then it is really dumb because it adds unnecessary form factor burden to a great machine.

RE: Not surprising to me..........
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 11:07:13 PM #
The price is not reasonable.
16MB RAM, and just run at 200MHz...!!~
its price is as high as USD$600!!
and even no BT and WiFi Built-in.!!
And extremely bulky.
In comparison, this price can already buy a high-end, at least i think, PocketPC...!~ and run at 300-400MHz, with 32-64MB Ram...!!~~.. and BT or WiFi built-in...
I am sure that no one is willing to buy it EXCEPT they are too rich and so they can pursue everything they like.....
>.<
I live in Hong Kong, and I just know simple english.
We here, we can already buy a Duron 1200+ desktop below USD$200.
......So I can buy THREE desktops (include monitor)....
aaa...
and... you need extra $$$$ for the WiFi + BT...!!
too bad....!~~

...I want to kill Sony... It just has no improvement...
Its NX70V is actually just an VERY EXPENSIVE PocketPC (which already be available years ago)............

.....Nothing to say...

PS I apologize for my poor english...

SPUG posted the PDF File on the NX

costein @ 9/30/2002 2:53:53 PM #
http://www.spug.net/news/press/nx70.pdf

Hope I didn't miss this in another post here.

Cheers!

costein

What about OS7,8,9,10?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:09:10 PM #
DEJA Vue? LOL

Question on Palm OS vs. PPC

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:24:23 PM #
Now that we have these first OS5 devices coming out I keep wondering if palm is on the right track or if PPC may start digging in to palm's market.

The reason I ask this question is because every other day now there's a "new" company making more compelling PPC devices. Razor Zayo and now Viewsonic are both coming out with some very nice "looking" units. They join HP/Compaq, Toshiba, Casio, T-mobile, Audiovox, and so on.

Meanwhile palm and sony stand alone on the palm OS side. Handspring and Handera seem to be on the way out.

Why doesn't palm license to more companies? I'm starting to worry about the future of the palm platform if this trend keeps up. I just hope sony and palm can continue to outsell this onslaught of PPC devices.

What frustrates me even more is when sony announces an awesome sounding device such as this NX series but we come to find out that it still lacks on memory (when compared to ppc's), has a huge form factor that's not very pockectable, and horrible battery life.

The same goes for Palm with the controversial design of the Tungsten.

My bottomline question for all you Palm OS fans on this site is this: When comapring the new offerings from palm and sony vs. all the stuff coming out on the PPC side, how do you feel about the future of the Palm OS?

P.S. I appreciate all insightful comments but no flames please and no sony rules/palm sucks and so on.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 3:58:55 PM #
As with any purchase, (car, PDA, computer, etc.), determine what you need to do, find some way to do it well and then just do it. If the solution fits the need, what else matters?

If you find two or more ways to do something, then you need to factor in other criteria that are important to you.

If your needs dictate a PDA make sure it can do what you need to do. If either a Pocket PC or a Palm device does what you need, then pick one according to your other criteria. If it is a tie, just flip a coin.

With electronics, something better is always around the corner. Nothing is perfect and nothing lasts forever. Do not get caught up in this petty and stupid "Mine is bigger than yours!" war or “I’m smarter than they are and they are doomed!” argument that constantly clogs forums like this. Both Palm and Microsoft have pros and cons and each is constantly improving their products. If one stumbles and falls, something else will fill the void. Five years from now, what will it matter?

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:01:17 PM #
Palm OS is bugging the heck out of me, and OS 5 seems like a minor update, in many ways. Obviously 6 is going to be a nicer change, hopefully incorporating some of Be's technologies.

The Pocket PCs are really slick, but I simply will not run a crappy MS operating system. Especiallyone that will barely sync to my Mac.

The (possible) answer? I'm waiting for the next generation of smartphones to hit the US, such as the Sony Ericsson P800 (4th quarter), Nokia 3650 (1Q2003), etc. These machines will have built-in Bluetooth, the Symbian OS, expansion card slots, cameras (still camera on the P800, video/still on the 3650 -- and I bet someone will hack the P800 to shoot video, at some point).

I am very disillusioned by the PDA market at this point, even though it's a market I've been following for 10 years. At this point, "smartphones" with a true PDA-OS seem like the better bet, and Symbian-based phones seem to be the coolest out of what will be coming out over the next 6 months.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:07:59 PM #
To follow up on that last post of mine, Re: smartphones...

I am also somewhat tempted to go for the Danger Hiptop, which is going to be available come tomorrow via CompUSA and T-Mobile/Voicestream outlets. It is a $200 "smartphone" device with a fairly high-res greyscale screen, keyboard, GPS telephone, and optional camera accessory (pretty low res). 200 minutes voice and unlimited data come with the $40/month plan. Does email, AIM, basic web browsing, PIM stuff, etc.

Even something like this is more tempting than any available or announced/rumored Palm/Sony machines at this point. For me, at least. If the Hiptop were color and could play MP3s (and had a memory slot), I would buy it in a heartbeat, for probably $300-$400. It is tempting to go for the $200 greyscale model, but I know it's smart to wait until the end of this year, or Q1 next year, as by then, many new phones/communicators will be available.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:14:17 PM #
There are many more Palm OS licensees than that. Let me see: Acer, Kyocera, IBM was and might be again, and there are others that I can not remember.

Now that PalmSource is a seperate company (Almost) we will see many more. Palm tried to restrict the amount of licensees in order to stay atop the market, but that was a huge mistake. Maybe now things will change.

PalmSource seems to be moving in the right direction. I am sure within six months they will amaze us with OS 6. It should have a lot of BE's ideas in it.

As long as Sony is with the Palm OS platform, we are safe. Palm will probably go out of business, but Sony will pay to keep PalmSource alive. I am willing to bet, that it will be here for at least another two years, and if by then PPC doesn't take over the market, they are here to stay.

Just my .02 and a half.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:14:40 PM #
Er, GPRS telephone, not GPS. Duh. My bad. Onboard GPS would be cool, but alas, is not an option. Maybe Danger will release other cool doodads for the expansion port, which for now, only uses the dinky camera accessory...?
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:30:54 PM #
>>Acer, Kyocera, IBM was and might be again, and there are others that I can not remember

...Handspring, Samsung, Handera, Symbol....and that weird 'Dana' thingy.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 4:55:29 PM #
Sony, Acer, Kyocera, and Samsung are the only mass-market PalmOS licensees left. Symbol is a vertical market licensee, Palm Inc. is falling, Handspring and Handera are both out of the game, and the "Dana" thing is...weird. It'd be nice to see more companies compete with Sony/Acer (PDA's) and Kyocera/Samsung (Smartphones), hopefully Palmsource is working on this.
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:04:59 PM #
Acer makes the "zayo" PPC. (It's Xsclae 400mHz, 64mb ultra thin)
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
wwiiolds @ 9/30/2002 5:11:06 PM #
I agree with your comments about the future of the Palm OS. I just bought a 515 and am happy with it, but I bought it with the knowledge that OS6 would be out in a year and keep the heat on the PPC power crowd. In shopping, you are absolutely right about the slick forms of new PPC's. I almost bought the Toshiba e310 which was cheaper then my 515, had more features, and better everything, but in the end battery life and the simplicity prevailed. How long this will be the case is anyone's guess due to the news of the NX having comperable bettery life to a PPC.

Hopefully we will see more licensees on the Palm OS side. Can anyone answer the question that once PalmSource fully breaks with Palm, will they on their own be able to license out the Palm OS to other companies, or does Palm itself need to give permission? I hope it is the former as this would get the market more interesting. But as we see Handspring gradually leaving the PDA market and going smartphone, and Handera off the map altogether, it is getting iffy on the Palm side. We'll have to see.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:20:34 PM #
Palm source is wholly own subisdiary of Palm Inc. Your queston is, will Palm Inc let Palm source make a move contrary to Palm Inc interest? (say some ultra cheap manufacturer wanna make model that will completely kill Tungsten) I think not. Even if Palm Inc wants it, I don't think Palm Inc stock owners will be terribly happy about it. Most of Palm Inc income comes from selling device as of now, and in the foreseeable future, instead of wireless or enterprise service that they hope to have more.

About Toshiba E310, It will be replace with E330 this month, Xscale 300mHz with 64 mb built-in. Scale uses much less battery than strong arm, so it will be better than E310. Microsoft will keep pounding the price/feture area to gain market share. It might be that by holiday season, some PPC models will reach $250 to keep pace with competition.

comparing Palm Inc vs PPC. consider this, you can get a PDA comparable to ipaq, wich was introduced at $599, for about $200-250 right now. It's a whoping 50% price reduction with integrated SD. ANd on the %599 range multitude of features being introduced. (transreflective, BT/integrated CF, Xsclae, WiFi etc).

Palm Inc in the menatime still sells the same old m515 with $50 price reduction. Plus a rumored device with 16mb memory and less than 200mhz.

Palm clearly isn't keeping pace.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 7:27:03 PM #
The reason the m515 is still in the market, is because it simply outperforms the Xscale PPCs. 33MHz goes a long way in PalmOS - about 200 times faster than a typical 400MHz PPC. Palms are still cheaper. $75 for a m105 (16 times the memory of the first Pilots) vs. $749 (plus tax) for a 3970 iPAQ. That's a fact, don't even bother to refute them.
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 1:07:34 AM #
> Palm Inc in the menatime still sells the same old m515 with $50 price reduction.
> Plus a rumored device with 16mb memory and less than 200mhz.
> Palm clearly isn't keeping pace.

If I could outsell my nearest competitor 5 to 1 with devices that obviously cost less to produce, I'd be doing it too.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 1:09:24 AM #
If that is a fact, well than i don't know what illusion is. is it so that m515 is faster than SOny NX70 (Xsclae PXA 210?)

can the m105 do .mpeg in full color like the 3970? or browse the web with built in BT? or receive mp3 email attachment and listen to it? How about Video streaming? the 3970 can run Palm OS emulator or load Linux, even dual boot, can the m105 do that? I am sure the m105 makes a nice filofax replacement tho' but than again filofax only cost 89cents in Walmart.

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 2:21:09 AM #
A good filofax costs a lot more than 89 cents; and that's what most people use their handhelds for most of the time, so that's what a handheld has to be fastest at. A pocket device 10x faster at playing video clips, but 10x slower at checking my next appointment is relatively useless for a lot of people. Dog slow M$ software with a poor taste in UI design is why Palm has been outselling them using a CPU over 10x slower. It's not an insurmountable lead, but the only good UI designs from M$ seem to come out of their game divisions.
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 9:11:52 AM #
To the idiot 2messages above. Any color palm can run full screen, color mpg's,avi's,mov's...only format really missing that I want is divx.. But that will come soon with the faster palms. So just go away ppc fanboy ;)


oh.. a 16mhz palm can run a movie at full speed wherez the older winCE have a hard time with it :P (I know cuz I've owned several..)

RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 9:15:56 AM #
oh yeah..forgot to mention that palms can run linux too... m105 cant cuz it dusnt have a flashable rom. And I'm sure that theres some way to get a palm to dual boot if your a good enough hacker...
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 10:11:11 AM #
another thing..heh..(i dont post often).. Palm may verywel our preform ppc's.. You have to remember that "mhz" isnt everything. Its the way it gets used. An 800mhz mac for example is comparable to a like 2ghz pc. This is the same reason the ps2 still have such a wide following and companies are still developing games for it even tho its only 200mhz.
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
Altema @ 10/1/2002 9:19:27 PM #
"You have to remember that "mhz" isnt everything. Its the way it gets used. An 800mhz mac for example is comparable to a like 2ghz pc."

You are correct, but the Apple/PC Mhz comparison stands because of differences in CPU architecture. When one chip takes several clock cycles to complete a set of tasks that another chip completes in a single cycle, it just has to run faster to accomplish the same job. One of the most drastic examples of this was done years ago comparing a 1.4 Mhz Apple /// to a much faster 25 Mhz 386 Intel based PC. They were both loaded with identical spreadsheets and given specific commands. The "slow" Apple ran rings around the PC, sometimes being able to complete the same task two or three times before the PC did it once.

However, those CPU advantages no longer exist since we have Palms and PPC's with the same processor. Because of this, a Palm xScale at 200 Mhz will perform tasks at exactly the same rate as a 200 Mhz PPC. You no longer have one horse running sideways or taking a different route.

Now, with both platforms riding on the same horse, will there be a speed difference? One would think not, except for one detail... and that would be the 300 pound jockey. An overweight OS never benefits speed.

New Clie's

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 5:43:24 PM #
I've known about this stuff for over week now. Did you not see the PDF file on SPUG?

FJL
fjl307@bugme.net
groups.msn.com/PDAPocketPCForum

RE: New Clie's
cbulock @ 9/30/2002 5:55:40 PM #
I was thinking the same thing. Wasn't this reported at this website on Friday also. This isn't really news.

RE: New Clie's
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 1:10:24 AM #
Yep, just a rehash of the same old news. They know they'll get hundreds of reads/replies to it, so they post it anyhow.

Complainers Galore!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 6:10:53 PM #

I frequent this site every now and again and I am amazed at the amount of complaining that takes place with very little knowledge to back up 'most' of the claims.

Wi-Fi/Bluetooth debate..? Are we aware that there will be a bluetooth memory stick? Oh, I'm sorry it won't be built in..(tears). Of course the the wireless slot will be proprietary to Sony, but then again I'm speaking to a bunch of PC losers who wouldn't understand the benefit at hand. However on the other hand a Macintosh user would clearly see the benefit.

As a matter of fact the only post to have made any sense is when there will be any compatibilty with an apple OS.


RE: Complainers Galore!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/30/2002 6:57:32 PM #
"Wi-Fi/Bluetooth debate..? Are we aware that there will be a bluetooth memory stick? Oh, I'm sorry it won't be built in..(tears). "

You obviously don't understand the complaint!

Of course there is a Bluetooth memory stick, but since the CF slot is Wi-Fi only, and there's only one memory stick slot, and there is no Bluetooth builtin- you can't have a bluetooth connection with a memory stick at the same time.

RE: Complainers Galore!!
nickgold @ 9/30/2002 9:03:10 PM #
I would have to disagree about the Mac comment, being an avid Mac-head -- Macs are all about standards, such as USB, Firewire, PCI, 802.11b -- heck, for a while we even had VGA! ;) Seriously though, an expansion port that only houses 1 possible card is idiotic. If they make a bluetooth card for that slot, or, proprietary memory cards for that slot, then we can have bluetooth + a memory card, which is what this "whining" is all about. Without the possibility of bluetooth and expanded memory at the same time, this device is simply lacking a major feature a LOT of folks, myself included, have been holding out for. 802.11b is cool and all, but bluetooth is even cooler, in a sense, in that I can use the PDA as a web pad ANYWHERE that gets GSM/GPRS coverage (assuming I get a bluetooth-enabled phone). That is a LOT more places than what's currently covered by 802.11b. For instance, I could be sitting under a tree in the park nearby, and get GSM coverage. Those kinds of scenarios are not available with 802.11b, and probably never will be.

Why the heck can't the PDA have a built-in GSM/GPRS unit, and have an optional bluetooth earpiece to make/receive voice calls with? Does anybody else out there think it's ridiculous that apparently no manufacturers have figured out this basic design premise yet? Then they can design the PDA to look and act like a wireless-enabled PDA (which frankly is nothing like a phone), and it can still be a "smartphone" with the use of a wireless earpiece. And heck, you could even have the PDA in your pocket, and make voice calls if you have the earpiece on. Take the "phone" put of the equation completely!

DUH!!! :-
Sony, Palm... anyone -- are you listening?

Man, I should go into product design/marketing...

RE: Complainers Galore!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 2:01:05 AM #
Nick Gold, that is the best idea I've read on a message board... A true gem among the whiners that create the majority of posts.

I use my motorola bluetooth headset with my T68i, but if I could lose the phone all the better. Now all we have to worry about is battery life ;-)

Cheers,
Andy

but then we're stuck with 128mb

graph @ 9/30/2002 9:45:39 PM #
Its sad how sony hasnt started selling 256 or above Memory stick... 128mb isnt enough for music and all the more for videos and photos.


Palmpro, IIIe, Vx, IIIxe, m505
& Clie Peg-T665c owner
email add: graph101@comcast.net

T665c photos:
http://www.kaizenbiz.com/jush/pub/album/2002_07_11-Clie-t665c/FrameSet.htm

RE: but then we're stuck with 128mb
davidkshepherd @ 10/1/2002 9:39:35 PM #
Um...
I hate to be obvious, but you can have more than 1 memory stick, right? Yeah, maybe it's a pain, but 1 for video clips, 1 for MP3s, etc. Is it really that big of a deal?
Just my 2cents

More in smaller size

I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 2:36:12 AM #
Powered by Crusoe 0.13 micron TM5800 processor at up to 1GHz

10GB hard drive with storage for thousands of songs or three full length movies

256MB memory

four inch, high-resolution super bright VGA color LCD

Synaptics touchscreen

Advanced lithium polymer battery (two hours movie viewing or up to eight hours general productivity per charge)

1394 FireWire, USB, audio out, OQO-link docking connector, microphone

Built in 802.11 and Bluetooth wireless networking

4.1" x 2.9" x 0.9" / 105mm x 74mm x 22mm; less than 9 oz. / 250 grams

RE: More in smaller size
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 2:45:57 AM #
NX is 2.87/5.5/0.94 inches x 8oz
RE: Question on Palm OS vs. PPC
Altema @ 10/1/2002 3:40:54 PM #
"You have to remember that "mhz" isnt everything. Its the way it gets used. An 800mhz mac for example is comparable to a like 2ghz pc."

You are correct, but the Apple/PC Mhz comparison stands because of differences in CPU architecture. When one chip takes several clock cycles to complete a set of tasks that another chip completes in a single cycle, it just has to run faster to accomplish the same job. One of the most drastic examples of this was done years ago comparing a 1.4 Mhz Apple /// to a much faster 25 Mhz 386 Intel based PC. They were both loaded with identical spreadsheets and given specific commands. The "slow" Apple ran rings around the PC, sometimes being able to complete the same task two or three time before the PC did it once.

However, those CPU advantages no longer exist since we have Palms and PPC's with the same processor. Because of this a Palm xScale at 200 Mhz will perform tasks at exactly the same rate as a PPC. You no longer have one horse running sideways or taking a different route.

Now, with both platforms riding on the same horse, will there be a speed difference? One would think not, except for one detail... and that would be the 300 pound jockey. An overweight OS never benefits speed.

Why PDAs have the remote feature?

ray00pal @ 10/1/2002 6:33:16 PM #
Anyone thought of that? Just for fun? NOoooo... It is actually a trick to get you use a PDA while you are not actually paying attention to it. The end result is to have more of them dropped into a cup of beer. Or, you pressing it too hard because you forgot it is not a real remote...

-ray

PC Mall NR70 Blowout!

DenHoff @ 10/1/2002 8:52:30 PM #
Just noticed that PC Mall is selling NR 70s for $389! They must be clearing stock in anticipation of something new:-)

external housing replacements for zire 72

Buffy @ 3/13/2005 2:56:25 PM #
im in desperate need to have my zire 72 external housing replaced but i need to know were i can have it done?!?!?!

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