Comments on: Rumor: Sony Clie NX70V & NX60 Revealed

depends on what changes happen between os5 and os6 - remember, it's not written yet :)

hardware wise, they at least have the right chipset. probably :)

As I understand it, 3rd-party developers cannot create purely ARM-native Palm OS apps and have them run under OS 5. OS 6 will be needed for that. Thus OS 5 is a sort of stop-gap OS and surely any PDA developer using it knows this and has plans to go to OS 6 ASAP.

Or do I misunderstand this issue?

you misunderstand. os5 will run native code, too.

no he doesn't misunderstand. OS 5 will not allow 100% pure ARM applications, although it will allow from "armlets" or bits of key parts of the program to be written for ARM. while it gives you most of the benefits of a pure ARM program as the armlets will target performance portions of the program, ie. graphics calls etc. it is by no means total and some parts will always run in emulation. OS 6 will allow for pure ARM applications while still I believe having emulation as the backup rather than primary means of operation.

that said both Sony and Palm have had flash upgrades in the past for their units to higher OS numbers. clearly Palm has lead the way with this though and often didn't charge for the upgrade something Sony always has. neither company has by any means promised a upgrade could be offered or will be offered to OS 6, although many believe that likely. buyer beware.

> that said both Sony and Palm have had flash upgrades
> in the past for their units to higher OS numbers.

Sony has provided all of ONE flash OS upgrade for a singular model of their PDAs the N710C. They required you to send the device in, they charged something like $50 for it, and it was a very limited time offer. The only reason they did it was because customers were outraged that they released a "new" identical model with a later OS only a few months after its release. I would certainly place zero confidence in the OS upgradability of any Sony PDA.

Palm on the other hand is still providing OS updates for nearly every flash updateable model they ever made (the VII and the original Pilots being the only exceptions I can think of). A huge difference.

If there is no printed promise, assume it is not upgradable. How many time has Sony weasel out of upgradability? (plus there is no mention anywhere the 16mb are flashable)

Simple. Code that uses the new OS 6 API will all be compiled for ARM. OS 5 (OS 4.1 API re-written for ARM + hires API + Audio API + Browser + support for ARMlets) will be 'part of' OS 6. Units that run OS 5 and have adequate flash ROM will be upgradable to OS 6. All of this has been strongly implied - none of it explicitly stated. However - having one platform for OS 5 and yet another for OS 6 would be insane and suicidal. Nobody would do this. Then again.......

I'd say the biggest factor is the ROM size. OS6 is supposed to add things like a real file system, custom fonts, multitasking and support for native ARM code for apps. OS5 still fits in a 4MB ROM. If they are shipping these new devices with a 4MB ROM and OS6 has a 5MB or bigger footprint, unless Palm can provide a "light" upgrade that fits in 4MB, then you couldn't upgrade. By light, I mean leave things out or put some in RAM like the Pocket PC 2002 ROM upgrade did for iPAQs - WMP, Terminal Server, Reader Messenger were RAM updates and Spellchecking and Pocket IE WAP support was left out entirely.

The Clie is currently shipped with 16Mb Flash ROM. The leaked pdf says NX will have 16Mb ROM, I assume this will be flash as well. ROM size should not be a problem.

The problem is, Sony will be looking to owners of the NX series to buy their next product. So will they do the right thing and release an update or make a point of not doing so just to sell more of the new device. (I think it is quite common to delay the upgrade a little, so that those with bulging pockets go out and buy the new device.)

The risk is of course, that if they don't offer an upgrade and Palm do (suggesting a marketing decision) most of the current Sony owners might just go and buy a Palm or another product from another company with a better record for software upgrades.

Zuber

> OS6 is supposed to add things like a real file system, custom
> fonts, multitasking and support for native ARM code for apps

The Palm OS already has a real file system. Supporting multitasking and native ARM code, mainly means opening up and making official existing APIs by providing header files and specifying the binary format. Custom fonts would be the only "new" thing in that list. Fonts are usually one of the bigger items in many OS's, so it could be an issue. Still, you could do a minimal release that only includes a few fonts and it depends on how sophisticated the font system is.

Of course, given that you had no clue in 3/4 of what you said, I wouldn't place much value on any of it.

Hey man, I'm so cheap I want to buy one unit and use it forever. If this Sony device can take OS6 AND OS7 then I can do all the voice recognition I want on this device and warez everything else man! :) Oh, and I can do all this while I still live in my parents house and geek off since I can't find a date.

Hey wait a sec, some days ago we where all very excited about the palm OS5 debut... now we are all discussing about OS 6? kinda to ahead in time for me. Lets wait until we get a grip on some OS 5 device and then we will have a lot of things to say about OS 6...

>> The Palm OS already has a real file system

Does it?

The Database Manager model is not much appropriate when you think of generic apps, bigger memories and add-on 128M cards.

In PalmOS 3 Palm added a simulation of "flat" files over the databases, but never took the trouble to let them be hotsynced; developpers just ignored it.

I think the time has come for a more tradicional file system, with an hirarquical directory structure. Limits (like the 32K regs max) will have to be expanded. The in-memory model used today for database access should be kept (for compability and also for easy of programming), but tradition read/write operation must be added.

>> The Palm OS already has a real file system
>Does it?

What do you mean "does it"? Are we in a time warp here? I can create, read, write, modify, etc. files in a hierarchical directory structure (and modify that too). It's been available on Palm OS for over a year now. What planet have you been on?

>"What do you mean "does it"? Are we in a time warp here? I can create, read, write, modify, etc. files in a hierarchical directory structure (and modify that too). It's been available on Palm OS for over a year now. What planet have you been on?"<

Wrong. The Palm OS runs off a collection of databases, but it does *NOT* have a hierarchical file structure. It does appear to when you use programs like McFile, etc., but even then only on an external memory card, and it's still database oriented. You can't drill down through the folders and actually launch the application. VFS is exactly that: *Virtual* File System.

Sheesh. Learn some things before you run your mouth, will you?

Sean

Is it ego that makes people take things so personally?

Grrrr. I shouldn't even waste my time on idiots who don't know what they are talking about but...

> Wrong. The Palm OS runs off a collection of databases,

Run off of databases? No operating system "runs off of databases". A database is a database, whether it is in main memory or on a file somewhere.

> but it does *NOT* have a hierarchical file structure. It does
> appear to when you use programs like McFile, etc., but even then
> only on an external memory card, and it's still database
> oriented. You can't drill down through the folders and actually
> launch the application. VFS is exactly that: *Virtual* File System.

Wrong. What in the world do you think these launcher apps do???? They go into directories and load applications into memory to run! How in the world do you think JPG viewers read files??? They aren't databases! They are files and they are in directories. The Palm OS through VFS supports those things NOW. There is a RAM disk program for current Palm devices that supports this through VFS and the OS 5 simulator includes a RAM disk that does the same thing.

> Sheesh. Learn some things before you run your mouth, will you?

Go get a clue before you post.

It's a little silly to argue the point. Both of you need clues. Technically, a filesystem is a type of database (in which the data records are the files and the directories). But a Palm handheld with no card in the slot (that's 90+% of them) only has databases in the storage heap, so that's what the PalmOS runs off of for persistant storage. It's true that some launchers permit running apps off of memory cards, but these apps and the launcher itself are databases (prc databases, which are a variant type of pdb database) which must be in the storage heap at run-time. You can't run an app that's flat 68k or ARM machine code in a VFS file directly from the launcher. You can't sync (via a conduit) a database that's been flatted onto a memory card, or that has any record > 64k. So, currently, VFS is a second class citizen, even in OS5. Flat unsegmented code much bigger than 65k is something for which they need to enhance the OS and API's.

...which is why I began this whole thread by asking about upgradability to OS 6!

Oh, no...not again....

Our sources say it will be a ARM-compliant CPU, no other specifics at this point.

-Ryan

Dragonball MX1 processor - 200Mhz or a StrongARM processor at 206Mhz or a Intel PXA210 X-Scale processor at 200Mhz - I am putting my money on MX1

I'll take that bet, $5 on the 200MHz XScale

I read about a new 300mhz Intel XScale that is dubbed faster than other versions. Is this processor included in the Palm Ready program assuming Intel manfuacturers this new Xscale processor?

>>The specs state a 200MHz ARM CPU... What's up?

How anybody could have been following PDA news over the last year and not understand this is beyond me. But im a big geek - i guess - so here goes:

XScale = ARM
DragonBall mx1 = ARM
StrongARM = ARM
TI OMAP = ARM

...these are ALL ARM cpus!!!! ARM is the name of the company that designed the architecture AND the name for this general architecture. All of the above companies (Intel, TI, Motorolla) LISCENSE this design/architecture from ARM.

> XScale = ARM
> DragonBall mx1 = ARM
> StrongARM = ARM
> TI OMAP = ARM

> ...these are ALL ARM cpus

Actually not technically correct. These are not just CPUs. These are all controller chips that *contain* a CPU (or two), *plus* a bunch of other stuff (caches, serial ports, clocks & timers, PWM audio, possibly USB, slot, memory and display controllers, etc.) The OMAP throws in a 200 MHz DSP and local RAM.

The TI OMAP and Motorola MX1 contain ARM, Inc. designed CPU cores (ARM 9T variants). The DEC (now Intel) StrongARM and Intel XScale contain ARM architecture compliant CPU's (execute the same instructions, but with different pipeline and cache arrangements, sort-of like the difference between various Athlon, P3 and P4 ia32/x86 implementations.)

>>These are not just CPUs. These are all controller chips that *contain* a CPU (or two), *plus* a bunch of other stuff (caches, serial ports, clocks & timers, PWM audio, possibly USB, slot, memory and display controllers, etc.) The OMAP throws in a 200 MHz DSP and local RAM.

Yes i know - but lets keep simple since some people are just finding out the ***crushing*** revelation that xscale is 'somehow' ARM related:)

I think all of you guys are missing the point. My guess of what happened to XScale is that Sony has produced their own processor. I know that Sony as an ASIC divison and is making their own chips. The only question is do they have a partnership with ARM? If so, then it would seem to make sense that they would put together their own version. This would allow them to add things that can set them ahead of everyone else. I suspect that they put a mpeg4 engine on the same chip. So who wants to buy one of these and tear it appart and let us know what chips are inside?

Look at these news items about 200Mhz ARM for Palm OS 5.0 (below).

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/1,1958,1608_1257_23,00.html

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3737&MODE=FLAT

If it is XScale *and* Sony is not advertising it,
then I would humbly suggest that Sony plans on using
more than one vendor for its Clie line.

That means Sony will offer both Motorola MX1 and
XScale in their lineup.

XScale performance is poor. Intel won't have Palm
support in their new Beta released compiler until
November. If it is XScale, then it doesn't have
the optimized compiler. Existing ADS 1.X tools
do a poor job with Intel's XScale variant.

It would be foolish to go this early with XScale.

I'm not exactly sure where you are getting your information about XScale, but it is entirely false. Have you run any benchmarks on TT vs. NX70/60? Please use data to make final determinations, not someone's opinion or comparison against a PPC device. Seems to me there aren't any PPC devices running OMAP-1510 ... why ??? I would speculate the device does not have enough performance to make a product.

BTW ... did you ever think that Sony has a well known brand name in consumer electronics and doesn't necessarily want to associate Intel and XScale with the Sony brand name. Sony invests a lot of money and effort into promoting a brand name and "associating" the Clie product line with Intel may dilute the branding efforts.

careful, add too much and it's not a gadget anymore...

From WordNet (r) 1.7 :
"
gadget
n : a device that very useful for a particular job
"

besides, voice would be nice and all but it's not exactly a good form factor for it - unless you make sure you've got a headset.

By Merriam-Webster's definition:

"an often small mechanical or electronic device with a practical use but often thought of as a novelty"

In my thinking, a gadget is a small device that has one or more features, period, and this thing packs more useful and advanced features into 8 oz. than anything, ever (at least until the next model).

I haven't been a big buyer of Sony gear over the years, but it looks like that's about to change big-time. I love my current Clie N760C, but it's looking to be time to upgrade!

At its launch, surely the NX70V (with the wireless card) will be the coolest and most advanced little gadget in human history.

5.5 X 2.9 X 1 inches.
8 oz

I wouldn't exactly call it "little". Palm's design will appeal to more people. Tungsten is only .6 inches thick and weighs only 5.6 oz. Also if it is true that Sony uses a 200 mhz ARM chip the OMAP chip will be as fast and get better battery life.

Let me preface this posting with a few statements:

I LOVE my Clie N760C...it is the best PalmOS device I've ever owned (and I've owned 7 devices in the last 4 years...all Palm branded, except for the N760C). I have become quite a big fan of Sony and their PalmOS strategy, despite the fact that my one-year-old N760C is about 3 generations old by now. They have pushed the PalmOS to heights that none of us could have imagined, regardless of OS version.

OK, here is my problem...Toshiba, T-MObile, HP/Compaq. I do not see myself abandoning the PalmOS for PPC, but I am afraid if the current hardware trends continue, we may finally see the significant erosion of the PalmOS market share, in favor of PPC, that has been forecast for years. The new generation of PPC devices have some very compelling feature sets and much improved form factors.

I had the opportunity to play with the T-Mobile PPC smartphone, and just on form factor alone, it is a beautiful device. It looks nicer than any PalmOS based phone I've seen, including the upcoming Tungsten W, the Treo line, Samsung, and Kyocera (I've used/owned both the Samsung and Kyocera models). This is one place where we could really see Palm take it in the teeth, since a cell phone buyer will often consider form, but not always be so concerned with what OS is embedded.

I have also been pretty impressed with the Toshiba PPC models. The e740 has built-in WiFi, plus TWO expansion slots (CF and SD/MMC), all in a reasonable (albeit kind of plain) form factor. The battery life is not too good, but neither is the reported battery life for the NX70V...but the Toshiba has a user-accessible battery compartment. I think Palm made a strategic error when they refused to sell Toshiba a PalmOS license. They were afraid to lose more market share on their more lucrative hardware side...well unfortunately, they will probably still lose market share to Toshiba, despite the fact that they are running the PPC OS.

My biggest issue is the capability for wireless connectivity. I am a bit concerned with the strategy that Sony has adopted here. By limiting CF choices, and by not including Bluetooth, I am not quite ready to just jump on this device as soon as it is available. I think Palm did a great thing by including Bluetooth, but really missed on the rest of the new Tungsten T (ugly, awkward form factor, no virtual graffiti).

I am hoping that the next Sony device running OS5 will be as thin as the T655C, with buttons like my N760C, built-in bluetooth, and pack the new features and software of the NX60 (since I doubt it will have a camera).

Maybe I'll be waiting for the crop of OS6 devices....sigh...

"The battery life is not too good, but neither is the reported battery life for the NX70V"

Have there been any informed, credible reports about the battery life of the NX70V? I know that, in general, SONY's battery life for its high-end handhelds has been very poor, but maybe we can hope that the new processor and new operating system will provide for better batter life?

Thanks, Robrecht

If you read the specifications on the leaked Sony document, which was posted here last week, the reported battery life for the NX70V is 5 hours with the backlight OFF.

Such ridiculously poor battery life!

Still no good connectivity options!

Very large form factor!

Even though I very much want color virtual graffiti, and I am a big fan of SONY products, I just don't see this as my next handheld.

Thanks, Robrecht

> the reported battery life for the NX70V is 5 hours with the backlight OFF

And this is much worse than you think because typical battery life measurements are reported using applications where the CPU is mostly idle (display ON, CPU OFF!). And given how much faster the XScale performs, it probably spends a greater percentage napping in typical apps than a 68k Dragonball. Any guesses as to the NX70V battery life with the backlight on medium while playing a high animation game? I'm not too optimistic.

"Also if it is true that Sony uses a 200 mhz ARM chip the OMAP chip will be as fast and get better battery life."

Whoa.... how on *earth* did you come up with the idea that the 175mhz TI ARM chip is faster than the 200mhz Intel one?

I /highly/ doubt that.

"Whoa.... how on *earth* did you come up with the idea that the 175mhz TI ARM chip is faster than the 200mhz Intel one?"

First, we don't know if ist an Intel chip. Second I didn't say faster I said as fast. Do you think you will be able to tell the difference between a 175 and a 200 mhz processor in daily use? If you do you are buying into the mhz hype of the PPC camp.

Hmmm, I'd vote for the pacemaker.

elo

The OMAP1510 also includes a separate 200MHz DSP to take the load off the 175MHz main processor - it'll be plenty fast.

Do you know if OS 5.0 has part that take advantage of this DSP?

Sony uses Intel's PXA210 which run at 200mHz. (read the pdf file) Intel has multimedia extension which is different than TI OMAP dsp. so can you also verify that OS 5.0 has part that take advantage of this extension?

or are we talking about OS 5.0 only support the V5 arm codes.

I only think back to all of the older AMD vs. Intel arguments where indeed a X mhz Intel was faster than an X mhz AMD.

I just can't imagine that TI's and Intel's ARM implementations are going to be the same, MHZ for MHZ. I'd bet on TI being slower...but it'd be great to be wrong.

I'm sure using fastCPU or afterburner (if there is a version for the unit) will allow you to slow down to 40mhz or something for using memo pad... using memo pad at 200mhz seems ridiculous to me.

anyhow, underclocking would surely increase battery life greatly. hopefully the unit will display and react properly if underclocked to 40mhz for all apps but the intensive ones (camera, video, games, etc)

I didn't get the first post =(

Stupid shower, I'm never taking one again.

Peace,
-Bartman007

here's hoping - as we all are - that the 802.11b is specifically listed as the only supported device just because its the only one it'll work with right out of the box, and other vendors can easily make theirs compatible.

still, wonder about the memory.

Sorry man, I stole that first post position from you (unintentionally, I swear). But please, don't stop taking showers. :-)

According to this site the device the device has a 200MHz Intel XScale processor (not a Dragonball MX-1).

Thanks for the pic's! Sweet PDA, I'm glad they kept the design, it's the best palm os device to date! These sony guys must have people locked up in a closet to design this stuff!

I just measured my NR and it's 5/8 of an inch thick.

From what I can amke out (from pictures)The extra thickness is just around the CF slot area. Still a whole load of excess material, if all you can use it for is the Sony brand only WiFi card.

If Sony really have crippled this thing not to work with other CF cards, then I will have to look elsewhere. I wanted to use a memorycard and Bluetooth at the same time. Possibly Palm, possibly something else. It's just that 320 x 480 display is so tempting.

Zuber

Is that the thickness when its closed, or when its open?

Yeah, the Sony's did sound good....take a look at the picture, and you'll see the extra thickness where the CF card goes....but it is real bad that the only device you can use is Sony's proprietary additions....I will look into the new Palms, especially if the thickness is minimal...i would hope they had a 0.4" thickness...but its not to be. The 320x480 and virtual grafitti is nice, but 320x320 from palm will have to work....plus I can use the SD cards I already have from my 505! and will use on my Kyocera 7135, when that thing comes out!

Actually, I have one question. With the previous version of these devices (the NR series), you could flip the screen completely around, and have it rest on the 'back' of the handheld. How can you do that with this, and have the lid be completely on the back? If you look at the pictures, it seems odd that it will work and flip around perfectly...but i'll wait until they are released!

>>> With the previous version of these devices (the NR series), you could flip the screen completely around, and have it rest on the 'back' of the handheld.<<<

I think you have this bit confused. It should work just the same. The CF housing is on the underside of the device. The Screen portion flips and sits ob the keyboard.

Zuber

yeah - with the 'previous version' you couldn't flip it completely around, you could flip it about 160-170 degrees, and you could then turn the display 180 degrees, and flip it back down in place.

this will naturally support the same action

[QUOTE]But sony believes, that the professional user in usa or europe will go on swapping the memory-stick against the bluetoot-memory-stick.[/QUOTE]

Maybe Sony shares marketing research with Toshiba?

"Maybe Sony shares marketing research with Toshiba?"

I hope you are being sarcstic. Toshiba PPC's are available with built in WiFi or dual expansion (with the exception of the e310). Toshiba pioneered built in wireless with the e740.

Yes that's the humor of sony.

Take look at what's available in japan (scroll down to pega-cf60, looks like a mobile-data add on card):

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PEG/CLIEGEAR/index.html

or look at this one, looks like a bluetooth-cf-card (I don't know japanese, but the text say's bluetooth, scroll down to the 6. picture from top):

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PEG/PEG-T650C/mobile.html

OK, looking at those links, it may well be possible to get all those items to work with the NX models. I assume the NX will be sold in Japan, so I can't see Sony not making these devices compatible with it. May have to use Japanese versions like with the Bluetooth Memory Stick until come overseas.

Only concern would be battery life.

Zuber

I can tell you about my experiences of getting japanese accessories getting to work :-(

I got the PEGA-BT700 bluetooth-module for the Clie PEG-N770C/E (European Version of the N760). It worked finde with the dial-up-networking. But as soon as I wanted to use a SMS-Program, I found out, that every bluetooth device got it's own drivers and sdk (software development kit). The SMS-Application which could not use the standard dial-up-networking, did only work with the palm-bluetooth-sd-card and the bluetooth-memory-stick. The developper had, and I can understand that, no interest to do some special code rewriting for me, neither did they want to buy a PEGA-BT700 for test purposes.

I'm also very disappointed to see that Bt isn't integrated on the system board, though I'm hopeful that Sony will release a CF-Bt module in addition to the WiFi one.

re: the (Japan-only) CF sleds: what I've been able to glean is that these are only compatible with Japanese cellular-system wireless modems and landline modem CF cards -- no WiFi, no CF memory, etc. as there are no drivers available.

Current Sony Bluetooth options are the clipon PEGA-BT700 module (for N & S-series; and Bt 1.0 spec only) and the PEGA-MSB1 (which takes up the MS slot and costs a small fortune!) :(

As a footnote: the iPAQ 3870 was actually the first wireless-integrated PDA (Bluetooth) even though the initial release was unbelievably buggy...

Some facts:

-US folks forget that the Toshiba e740 serie has an integrated 802.11/wifi model AND an integrated Bluetooth model (European version):

Toshiba e740 Bluetooth Pocket PC includes an Intel PXA250 400MHz processor and 64MB RAM, a CompactFlash II slot and a SecureDigital slot with Pocket PC 2002 as the OS. With integrated Bluetooth wireless connectivity, the e740 offers the flexibility you need to easily check e-mail, view files from the company network and surf the Web without the hassle of cords or cables.
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=TOSH_E740

802.11 and Bluetooth are here. But to INTEGRATE these new wireless technologies into mobile devices isn't an easy task as it looks like. It seems , unlike the Bluetooth-proficient Fujitsu Siemens Pocket Loox, that the Bluetooth 740 includes only two profiles!? (serial modems and dial-up networking).

-PDA's with Bluetooth integrated:

1. Toshiba e740 Bluetooth Pocket PC
2. Compaq iPAQ H3970 Pocket PC
3. Fujitsu Siemens LOOX Pocket PC
4. Compaq iPAQ H3870 Pocket PC with Bluetooth
5. Intermec 700 Color Pocket PC (integrated Bluetooth/802.11/GSM,GPRS: now shipping)
http://www.wirelessweek.com/index.asp?layout=story&articleId=NEb0925123.500
6. Palm Tungsten T (coming)

-The first PDA's with integrated 802.11 i know were the Casio IT-700STD Industrial Cassiopeia and Sync VOVID pda. Did you know them? They weren't that successfull because of battery draining.

Casio IT-700STD Industrial Cassiopeia
http://casio.com/personalpcs/product.cfm?section=145&product=1985&display=21&cid=4672
Sync VOVID pda
http://www.sycrf.co.kr/syctrn/new/english/e_product2.html

-Sony will introduce the PEGA-MSB1, a Memory Stick that adds Bluetooth connectivity to its CLIE line of PDAs, to the European market. I'd be surprised if Sony chose to not introduce the PEGA-MSB1 into the US market as well.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/urltrurl?lp=de_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fdata%2Fdz-30.08.02-000%2F
http://www.sony-europe.com/presscenter/PressShow.x?articleid=816

-.....Bluetooth access points present a very attractive alternative to Wi-Fi for many applications that value security and low power consumption. I strongly urge you to consider evaluating this technology very carefully before blindly jumping on the Wi-Fi bandwagon… especially if that bandwagon runs on batteries.
http://www.planetpdamag.com/content/052202rt.htm

-Bluetooth vs 802.11 "Battle" Bogus: Report
http://www.80211-planet.com/news/article/0,4000,1481_998131,00.html

Bluetooth and 802.11 are two different technologies for different needs/uses. Shortly:

Bluetooth=PAN=low power=cable replacement (+ automatic synchronization)=supports voice right away=mobile (threw Telecom Networks: GSM, GPRS, CDMA....)

802.11/wifi=LAN=higher power=battery sapping=networking (no automatic synchronization)=doesn't support voice right away=not mobile enough (limited to Open Access Points)

Bluetooth and (not Versus) Wi-Fi (802.11): Wi-Fi And Bluetooth As Complementary, Not Competing, Technologies
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=33477

"802.11 NOT the one-size-fits-all wireless technology"
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=41543

It is probably not proprietary. In the past, the T-series machines has an optional adapter of the same nature (non-memory CF). It can be used to plug in CF-size data network card (64kbps packet data) from different mobile operators, and those card are not tailor for Clie, but a general CF card that can be used on PPC, Notebook, etc. Therefore I believe the "CF" slot for NX70 will be the same. I expect there will be no problem to plug in common CF modem card.

It is NOT a CF slot, and the term Compact Flash should not be used to describe it.

I wonder if the CF Association can do anything to stop this. Probably not since the CF standard is one of the (if not the) most open slot standards. There is probably too much room in all of its openness for Sony to twist and foul it into their proprietary wishes.

I guess they keep memory cards from working so you'll have to use memory sticks.

>>>I guess they keep memory cards from working so you'll have to use memory sticks.<<<

If they only stop memory cards from working, I could handle that. Not ideal, but not a total disaster either. The question is, will they let you use other CF peripherals, and make it open, so that you can easily write drivers. If so I can use a memory stick and get CF Bluetooth card for around another £60.

Zuber

My guess is that it is a compliant CF slot, but Sony is only providing drivers for a single card.

Third party developers could develop drivers for their own devices.

yes it *IS* most likely a perfectly normal compact flash slot.

hardware devices have these things called 'drivers' that one needs to allow ones device to talk to an otherwise unknown device. Just saying "It's an 802.11b device" doesn't help because not all 802.11b devices are the same - even within a specific companys product line they can be different.

I'm about 98% sure that this is a normal compactflash slot, and they only have DRIVERS for their 802.11b card, which isn't to say that third parties couldn't make drivers for THEIR cards.

(the other 2% wonders about some kind of crippling in relation to memory, but as far as non-memory devices, I'm certain it's open - and on top of that, I don't see how they could cripple the memory factor, but maybe they could make it so it's not directly visible to the underlying OS (effectively, but not truly, crippling it))

>>>yes it *IS* most likely a perfectly normal compact flash slot.<<<

Is that based on solid information you have, or is it based on the "Surely they can't be that stupid" principle :)

My other concern is that writing drivers won't be easy unless information is provided by Sony.

If you are correct, then it might still be possible to do data transfers from CF memory to MS memory allowing some sort of data swapping.

Zuber

Actually the Springboard slot was and evolution from the compact flash (they share the pinouts)... I believe it's possible that Sony has only included the specific pins that their wi-fi card uses...

-------------- huggy ---------------

Maybe Sony has adopted the Springboard slot! :)

Is it said officially anywhere that it IS a CF slot? I just glanced over the .PDF and I didn't see "CF" in there anywhere.

It's listed as a "Wireless Communication Slot", but not a CF slot.

Since this hasn't been announced just yet, how do we know what Sony's official moniker is for it? Heck, they could call it a "Wireless Communication Slot in CF form factor" or something.

Just asking.

On page 23 of the PDF, it states that the Communication Slot is a "CF Type II".

Where do I find that .pdf? I found .pdfs of operating instructions, handbook and troubleshooting q&a but nothing like that on any of those page 23s.

Yeah, I was just thinking this. "Coolest gadget ever" and the battery life will be a couple of hours max...no thanks! There's little point to a handheld if you have to leave it plugged in all the time - might as well get a laptop.

With the WiFi card you will doing good to get 45 minutes.......

The battery life is supposed to be 5 hours with the sidelight off. Never seen ANYBODY use a Sony with the sidelight off, so the "normal usage" will probably be closer to three hours.

My problem with this, is that I have a device that has a 1024x768 32Bit screen, plays all media formats including full screen DVD video, has a 1.8Ghz Pentium 4 processor with 3 cooling fans... and it runs for almost 3 hours with the screen ON.

Yeah, but you've got a HUGE battery in that thing.

Yeah, it is huge, the battery alone probably weighs more the the NX plus cradle! The point was that we have a PDA that would not last as long as a high end laptop unplugged.

I would have thought that, with the extra bulge of the WiFi slot, they would have just extended the bulge to the bottom of the device and added another battery or a larger battery.

That would be nice.
A t665 form factor, but OS5 and the same resolution and specs as the NX70.
Well, I guess some of us still cant get the latest OS5 model from Sony as its a waste of 600 dollars!

"Now thats just PRIME!"

Agree. NO clamshell. However, I like the camera!!! Meanwhile, why all the fuss over the mem stick? Works dandy for me.

E>

The camera is definitely a keeper. At that resoultion, it could be finally used as a productive addon to the PDA.

"Now thats just PRIME!"

Give them 2 mos. And hey can we change to T-series buttons at some point?? The buttons on the low end S machines are buch better.

Yes, yes, High Res+ in a non-clamshell.

Forget about the T series, sony should use the SL form factor. Now that, my friends, would be the mother of all handhelds.

___________________________________
Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

The bad thing about Memory Stick is that it is a proprietary Sony format which almost nobody else uses. However you can use SD in MP3 players, cellphones, digital cameras, Pocket PCs (God forbid!), Sharp Zaurus, Palm palms, you name it.

A small flash card is pretty inexpensive, but it would be nice to be able to spend serious money in a large capacity card just once, and be able to transfer data easily among different devices.

Amen! I have one of the first retail NR70's (non-V) and the hinge is more of a hassle than what the 'wow' factor is worth. It takes longer for me to look something up than it does my wife one her sj30, (I have not yet been able to get used to the KB.. Now I remember why I gave up on Psion, I did not like having to type while standing up) I would LOVE VG, on a regular slate type of form factor, this would also give access to the app buttons which sony did not think to replicate on the 'screen' side of the device.. THAT would have been superprime sweet...

I couldn't have said it better myself! A PDA should be exactly that. Not many people are looking for the magic (all-in-one) computing device (PDA, cell phone, digital camera, electric toothbrush, pencil sharpener, radar detector). C'mon people! Thumbboards are totally lame, too!

I say: no camera, no moving parts! Moving parts = broken device! Same for the sliding Tungsten from Palm. God, if only they would have opted for VG on a m515 sized device.

Where is my m525?

m5xx form factor, Hi-Res, OS5/ARM, 32MB RAM, Jog-Dial

this is all I ask for.....but instead they give me Dungsten......

C'mon guys! Some people DO like the clamshell device! At least with the NR/NX models you have an option! You CAN leave it in tablet mode, ya know.

But seriously, do you all DOUBT that with Sony's rapid product cycle that they're NOT going to release a tablet OS5 device? That's just plain silly. :) They've still got the T665 to make obsolete! I'd give it until next month!

But seriously, some people find the clamshell design useful (like me). I'm serious, too, and I know I'm not the only one.

So please don't tell them to get rid of a product line or feature set just because YOU don't like it. There are more people on this earth, ya know.

Besides, Sony already has a product line for you, so let them evolve that.

I agree, why not have an OS 5 Clie w/ Virtual graffiti and like the T665

Fjl
fjl307@bugme.net
groups.msn.com/PDAPocketPCForum

if someone can create a hack, and drivers, its possible.

I keep seeing people post "someone will hack it to work with CF drives" but I'm not sure this will be possible. CF drives are basicly just IDE storage devices. If the hardware for reading an IDE device is missing (which I assume it must be) I don't think you can make it work.

Highly unlikely. The Palm OS is difficult to develop drivers for, since the required info is only available to licensees. Furthermore, Sony will never make the protocol to talk to the slot availble to developers. Between those two, it will be far more difficult to develop any kind of real CF support than it would be under any other OS I can think of. Add to that the very small quantities this device will sell in, and I can pretty easily say that any real CF functionality without developer support from Sony is highly unlikely at best.

Agreed, I packed my t625c with almost 100 MB of software (games, 2 office apps, ebooks etc.). I hardly use 10 programms most of the time (datebk5, AvantGo, Bejewled, Handstory, PalmReader, Docs2Go with DatavizMail, FunSMS, SplashID, SuperNames, MegaLauncher and some Hacks).

Sony, please please please give us a T625c shaped device with

- Bluetooth
- Better Buttons
- Better Cover
- Maybe OS5
- 16 MB
- Better batteries

Most users won´t need a camera (I have a Konica with MS and SD-Card - so I pop the MS into my T625c and watch or email the pics), movies (as long as it does not support DivX and a 800 MB Memorystick costs $100) and clamshell. A wireless LAN option would be nice but not really necessary.

Phil

The form factor would be really good for several vertical markets, such as insurance or real estate. But I doubt that sony will put the feature sets in to target them (cell + gps + long battery life).

What I see right now is an entertainment device stuck somewhere between a real PDA, and a full laptop.

If Handspring brings out a Treo 90 + 320x320 + ARM/OS5, I'm probably buying.

Todd.

While we're all waiting on Bluetooth....Has anyone here actually tested a Bluetooth-enabled PDA with a Bluetooth-enable cell phone? Does the combo work?

E.

Good question. How does the email work. Can the PDA's beep when it comes in (assuming the phone is on) or do you have to "Go Get It"). Why doesn't sony have a 705 type?

What do you mean waiting for bluetooth?

I use my m505 with the bluetooth SD and Ericsson T39m. In Europe bluetooth is being used, and SonyEricsson's phones usually have it. It couldn't be easier to connect your PDA to an internet-capable phone. Using infra-red is a pain in the ass, having to align the two ports. With bluetooth, the phone can be anywhere (i.e. in your pocket, briefcase, etc), AND you can still make phone calls while connected to the internet!

Couple it with the widely available high speed GPRS, and you have email and internet anywhere you go.

Wi-Fi is great for when you are in a corporate lan (if you're lucky to have one where you work), but if you really want access anywhere bluetooth is essential.

Sony Clie has been used by a number of people with a Bluetooth Memory Stick, including use with a phone. Take a look at this thread as an example. Main cause of problems has been attempting to use it with Japanese instructions.

www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7606

The main complaint,can't expand memory at the same time. Hence the frustration when Sony announces that the new version will not have Bluetooth built in, but the CF Shaped slot will be Sony Wi-Fi only.

Zuber

Mike Pizza? LOL
Damn, I dont even know how to spell it. I think though its Piazza.

I've been calling him Pizza-boy now for years. Guess it a was matter of the mind over the fingers.

Hmm if you are looking to stick with a PalmOS-based device, it sounds like the Tungsten might be very close to your needs.

-Multiple slots (non-crippled, SDIO, CF IDE, etc)

Doesn't have multiple slots, but does have internal bluetooth so you can use that along with a SD card.

-Storage solutions up to 512M+ (for music/video)

SD goes up to 512...

-Wireless (Bluetooth/Wifi)

Built-in bluetooth, there will eventually be 802.11 for SDIO I'm sure...

-Colour, hires(+?)

Yep.

-Battery life of 3-5 hours of hard use.

From what I've heard, the Tungsten will give much more battery life than the new Sony- probably right around that range you mention.

If only it included Hi-Res+ (320 x 480) I wouldn't even be reading this thread.

Zuber

Yeah too bad. We keep getting closer to the "ultimate" Palm device, but still haven't quite made it there yet...

Yeah. Can still remember the fiasco when I waited for my m505 after they pre-announced.

Slow to innovate, sure. And Sony did innovate by using the OS that Palm wrote.

Sony innovates, Palm stagnates.

And Palm innovated by looking at a Sony PDA

You must mean this one:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/magiclink/sonyml_specs.htm

...Since that's the only PDA that Sony had out before Palm released the 1000, right?

It sure shows the Sony Mindset, though - Lots of audio capability, multimedia, questionably usefull features and an crappy battery life.

thats what the PDF said.

ED:
So which is it? We seem to be having conflicting information. Is it announced on Oct 2nd with a November release or is it going to be announced/released on the 2nd?

the pdf states "Early November" as the release date

Gary Duke
http://www.aurete.com

Ahh, I completely agree with you.
I was looking forward for Sony, but seems like i'll have to buy this tungsten junk from Palm until SOny starts to innovate once again.
What is this Toshiba E330 you talk about? Has it been released yet? PLEASE! GIVE US MORE INFORMATION!

I agree. The biggest problem for me will be the size of this thing and the mediocre battery life. I'll have to wait and see the reviews.

"Now thats just SLIME!"

>>realy, mailbox tah can send mpeg is a feature? <<

Imagine the $$$ to send a mpeg through your phone!

Everything that we've seen so far makes all of the OS5 units from Palm and Sony look like flimsy pieces of junk. The m515 is starting to look better and better. The above poster was right, this is ceasing to be a PDA and becoming a very fragile overpriced pocket computer. The non-standard CF slot and the added thickness kill the deal completely for me.

"-Non replaceable battery. (what happen after whole year of intense charge/discharge cycle? splurge another $600 for new PDA?)"

I don't think this is really an issue. I've never had a modern device with an internal li-ion stop holding a charge, its certainly been over a year now...

I love all these Sony bashers. While you will be using the inferior products, we the Nx owners will be humming!

All these years, these guys bashed Palm for not creating the hardware that matches PocketPC, and now Sony has surpassed PocketPC, not they are complaining about Sony.

You can't please everyone, Sony. Keep up the great work.

Can you specify what you mean by "non replaceable battery"? I thought one COULD replace the NR/NX's battery. Isn't that what that little screw-in door is on the side? Am I wrong (I easily could be, it's happened MANY times before, so . . .)

Granted, you'd still have to buy the right sized battery for it, but you'd probably just have to send it on back to Sony or something.

It's not as easy as walking into a grocery store and picking up a new one, but I don't doubt it's possible.

But hey, that's just me and goofy half-knowledge.

I agree with these problems you listed.

Adding another slot makes the MS slot bearable as you will probably use it mostly for memory, but limiting that new slot to their WiFi card is nuts. Bad move. They call it a 'Wireless Communication Slot'?

I like WiFi, but look at all the other non-WiFi wireless services out there. I am in Japan and the DDI Pocket Air H" services is where it is at! (What Ricochet could have been.) This works EVERYWHERE, even in subways. A 128k CF card was just announced.
http://www.ddipocket.co.jp/syohin/ah-n401c.html

What about GPRS, 3G, Bluetooth, and every other standard?

My next PalmOS device might be another Handera. I am not going to be getting something that is crippled or inferior and am willing to sit and wait for something decent.

For some reason these guys just don't want to take my money which is usually as easy as stealing Candy from a baby.

And when is Sony ever going to come out with a MS card bigger than 128MB. I have a 256MB SD card and am thinking of getting 512.

> and now Sony has surpassed PocketPC

In bulk and poor battery life. There is nothing about this device you couldn't do a year ago on PocketPC.

>>>In bulk and poor battery life. There is nothing about this device you couldn't do a year ago on PocketPC.<<<

Ignoring the built in Camera, Keyboard and 320 X 480 screen that is.

Zuber

got it thank you.

-Ryan
webmaster@palminfocenter.com

The WL100 only works with the NX series. It won't be available until the NX series is.

---
News Editor

Panasonic???

Last time I checked Panasonic isn't even a licensee. Of course, it would be VERY insteresting if they were. They've got some great designs and I tend to prefer them over Sony for VCRs and DVD. I'm not sure if that'll translate over to PDAs.