Comments on: Palm Tungsten T Review

I second that. An Excellent Review of what appears to be an Excellent PDA. Congrats to palm. I shall become a Tungsten T owner as soon as I can find one in stock at the local Staples.

Thanks Again and Kudos to the team at PIC for providing such an informative review.

Mr. T

I was hoping palm would avoid sony's mistake of choosing brighter screen and faster processor over battery life. it was something good that sets apart sony and palm.

Finally, Palm has managed to dig themselves out of the hole they have been stuck for so long. Saying that, I hope this time around they have tested the machine to death and not face issues they had with the m505 cradle or something like that.

I have long given up Palm and moved to Sony but this time I might just move back to Palm. Congrats, Palm!

graph: I was hoping palm would avoid sony's mistake of choosing brighter screen and faster processor over battery life.

A little perspective: (1) the screen is very bright and I personally set it at around 25% (2) the ARM processors provide exceptional MIPS/mW performance. I haven't had time to get long-terms battery life figures, but subjectively-speaking, the TT has been able to provide all-day heavy use on a single charge.

- D

Preliminary tests of the Tungsten T battery life with backlight on the lowest setting, CPU 90%+ idle, bluetooth off, temperature 72 to 68 degrees F, from a 2 full hour charge: 4.5 hours till the first battery warning, another 30 minutes of annoying extremely low voltage warnings before I ended the test. Preliminary indications are that the battery life might be 30% to 40% greater with the backlight off; still not enough for a cross country plane flight. This is roughly in the same ballpark as the T615C.

That's very interesting Ron - what application did you use for the 90% idle test? I haven't done any formal testing yet, but got 4+ hours using PalmReader, reading ebook from SD card, screen brightness set quite low (maybe 15-20% on the slider bar).

- Dan

I got my hands on a demo of the Tungsten T last night. I was very impressed. My wife has a T665 and I have a m515 currently. We compared them side by side, and the Tungsten display was superb. Icons and fonts were as crisp as I've seen, and the background was the closest I've seen to actual white. Even with the backlight turned off, the display was easy to read in typical office lighting. I didn't see any native apps to make noise on the unit, so I beamed Bejewelled over to it, and the speaker sounded quite nice compared to the m515 speaker. Sound quality was on par with the T665, but the max volume was not as high. The stylus felt good in your hand as long as it was telescoped out; it was a bit too short for my hand in it's small form. I was impressed at the lack of friction as the stylus glided across the digitizer. My only concern with this unit was in regards to .mp3 playback. It doesn't seem to be "made" for that as much as the T665, so I would be interested in seeing what kind of drain that puts on power. I also didn't know if an .mp3 player application would support powering down the screen during playback like the Sony hardware does. All in all, I would say that Palm has put out a fantastic unit. I will definitely be picking on up as soon as I find a buyer for my m515. If anyone is interested, let me know :)

Yup, a VERY well-done review. And that's rare. ;-)

I am a sony fan but I think I am only willing to wait another 2 months for the next T series. Otherwise I might just switch back to Palm.

The reason I am waiting is that I don't quite like the form factor still but the features and functions of the new Tungsten is quite impressive. Based on the track-record I am willing to wait until the new T-series comes out since they are quite innovative and if the NX series is an indication, I sure am looking forward to the new model.

The review is really great.
But I am quite curious about the memory space of the unit. How many RAM is available for loading applications on to it? I'm quite worry about it as I know that OS5 would utilize some of the RAM for running. I've a chance to see another review (detailed) of the new NX70 of Sony, it has 16 MB RAM but not all is available for user to use. And plugging in the Sony CF WLan card used up extra memeory for the drivers which the review claim to used up another 5MB of RAM. So let's do the maths and only a merely 10 MB maybe left. For users like me who use Chinese OS would require about 2 MB of RAM for the storage, which means maybe no more than 10 MB is usable......
I really worry about it, can anyone from PIC get more information about the memory situation of this unit?

14MB for users, 2MB for swap/scratch (it isn't clear yet) space.

Should be plenty for most of us. If not, stick in a memory card.

Yes, great review :)
But were is the Java Virtual Machine?
Is it included with the software bundle?
I don't see any mention of it in the palm.com web site. Palmsource was supposed to partner with insignia.com to bundle it with PalmOS 5!
This is a big disappointment!

I'm with you on the next T series. I've now looked at both the Tungsten and the NX series and they appear to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. The NX series is way too large a form factor, forget about sticking that thing in shirt pocket and the Tungsten, though it's small has no built in ability to play MP3, okay so what if 3rd party vendors are working on it, I seem to remember something about it you won't be able to play music in suspend mode like Sony's hold feature. I'm not sold on that slider mechanism either, what's the purpose? If they really wanted to make it functional then that are should have been a virtual Grafiti area, the unit is small as it is so getting rid of 3/4 inch isn't any big deal. Sony better rethink that wireless LAN slot also. Maybe I'm just slow but I'm not planning on the surfing the web on my PDA and if I'm close enough to wireless hub, I', gonna use my protable. What I would like however is the T series to have built in Bluetooth. I can transfer my mail from my cell to my palm using Bluetooth and that just makes good 'ol common sense. If I'm going to plop down 500 for another PDA it will have the following:

1. Voice Record (long overdue on Palm)
2. Built in Bluetooth, how hard can it be, they can fit it onto a memory stick
3. Palm OS 5 (It's defintely faster than 4.1)
4. The ability to play MP3s out of the box
5. A formfactor that fits into my shirt pocket.

Is that asking too much, come on Sony and Palm, don't make think about Pocket PC!

Well The TT satisfies 4 out of the 5 of your requirements. That sounds pretty good to me. MP3 on the handheld is overrated. (Thats why I have a Archos Jukebox - 20 gigs and it records).

Alex Johnson
<><

Proud Owner of a Handera 330

palm TT will have mp3 playback available free as soon as real networks and palm are done working on this... if any palm programmer is reading, HOW MUCH LONGER UNTIL TT GETS MP3 PLAYBACK? it should've been included out of the box....

Very well written review. Almost wants me to cut off my arm to get one.
How can I afford one? For the money they are worth, I can't cough up that cough as a youngen.

I am just letting everyone know that I got my TT for $298.00 over buydig.com

Seeing as the Tungsten T has a mic, speaker and bluetooth shouldn't there be some software to make the T act as a bluetooth handset to connect with a bluetooth phone?

The OMAP 1510 is a dual-core processor: the ARM925 is 144MHz and the C55x is 200MHz

- Dan

Check out Kinoma Player:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4467

Movies are excellent on the Tungsten T, think of the possibilities for mobile sales presenations, entertainment, etc...

It is available in the UK I live in Derby and Ive got one, and its great!

Who has it in stock ! I could order one from Palm Direct but there is no delivery info, Dabs.com and Expansys.com both say within 3-10 days, but I want to walk into a shop and buy one......PC World? Dixons? BTW I live on the South Coast, so please don't say "Derby Electronics" !!!

Just ordered it online from a big name retailer for £299 (inc. VAT). It might be a missprint, so I'll have to see if it turns up or I get a phone call. If it does turn up, I'll let you know ASAP.

If it is widely available for £299 including VAT, then I'll take back everything I said about it being overpriced.

Zuber

Ah Zuber!

Wanna let us know which retailer it is? Please?

Don't worry - i found it. At the current exchange rate, i make UK£299.99 = US$464 including all taxes.

It must be a mistake so i called them up and they confirmed that "although they don't have them in stock, or on the system, the quoted website price is the price that i'll pay".

We'll see i guess ;)

Hi! can you please tell me where the TT is already available in UK? Especially in London?

I'm intrigued; I've seen it as low as £340, who has it for under £300?

Had a problem with my credit card so had to phone them. The price is a mistake and it will go up to £399.99 tomorrow. They will honour any orders made today at £299.99. You can phone them up to 8pm or try online.

They have just got stock and I hope mine may still go out today for delivery tomorrow although I won't know for sure until tomorrow.

Thanks for the tip; mine will apparently ship tomorrow to turn up on monday. Time to find out how many of my 70 apps will survive to OS5...

Got mine from www.palm.com/uk for £389. Ordered Monday recieved wednesday. Dont bother waiting for the shops just order one you wont be dissapointed!! The next accessory I will buy for my TT is an Armani suit and a pair of Ray-Bans, it looks so cool!

Beat me too it.

Just got an email confirming the Order will be dispatched when I got home. I thought the price might be a mistake and expected a phone call/email saying sorry but ...

Good to see they will be sending the goods. Hope you guys all visit the site and get the orders in before the site update. I just checked, and it is still showing at £299

Zuber

Zuber

Zuber, can you tell me which retailer it is? Please?

Sorry, I went to bed after posting last night.

Price on the site is now £399. Made my day.

A assumed the retailer was clear from the title. Carphone Warehouse. Hope you figured it out.

So everyone that bought it at £299 is going to send me £10 as agreed yes :)

Zuber

Zuber

IT'S ARRIVED! IT'S TINY! Bit heavier than it looks but I was spoilt by my old Palm V.

Box a bit damaged, which is annoying as I tend to keep boxes. It's got six languages - hence my question posted below about JackSprat support. The default date when first starting was 5 August 2001!

(Now all I have to do, apart from installing all my apps, is sell my NR70V with load of accessories, like a Vaja case and 128mb memory sticks. Anyone interested before I start going to ebay? The accessories I'd mail anywhere but the NR70V only to the UK.)

Thinking of importing a 256mb Sandisk SD card for about £105. Anyone else in the UK want to join me in a bulk buy to save postage?

Not fair, I ordered mine first :)

Regarding getting an SD card from abroad. I'd be careful if I were you. You may end up paying Duty on it when it arrives and hence find it cheaper to buy local. Plus, there are garantee issues etc.

Hope I get mine today or I'm going to return it and cancel my otder (Not).

Zuber

One Tungsten T just arrived

Zuber

Hey guys--I got the Kinoma app to play movie trailers. I downloaded Spiderman from the Sony site, but when I played it there was no sound! What did I do wrong?
Thanks, Andrea

Hi everybody,

I was one of the "fortunate" people who got the TT for 299.99 from the CarphoneWarehouse online shop. After a close inspection of the screen to see whether there were any dust problems (see other threads), I unfortunately found to small pieces of dust. I phoned CarphoneWarehouse and guess what they said?

Quite a number of people have already phoned them to report the dust problem. Seems that CarphoneWarehouse got a bad batch of TTs. So everyone who bought the TT there, check the screen carefully. BTW, CarphoneWarehouse is going to replace the TT next day in an exchange with the old one. So good on them, but Palm Inc really needs to get their act sorted out.

My Tungsten from CPW arrived without the protective film on the screen and had a scratch on the screen. I suspect this is not Palms fault,

Anyway CPW are exchanging it today.

I've received my second TT from CarphoneWarehouse and it had a dead pixel. I've got enough of Palm Inc and the new TT. I'm going to return the device, invest in a Sony SJ30 and wait until Palm has solved the teething problems. I should have followed that rule that one should never buy the first release. Wait until the fixed the bugs.

How is the rest of you doing with their TT?

I also had some dust under the screen of my CW-sourced TT, which I could have lived with, but a oddly-failing backlight, which I couldn't. Waiting for the replacement today...

"I've received my second TT from CarphoneWarehouse and it had a dead pixel."

I went through four m505s before I was happy with the screen brightness, dead pixels and dust, and three Clie NR70Vs over the MS problem and dead pixels - with the NR70V I eventually decided to settle with the one with only one defective pixel in an obscure area because it's such a workup to convince Sony to issue an RMA.

My tack is to keep sending em back till you're happy; it's not as if it's costing you anything, and CPW shouldn't have an issue with you, they should be giving Palm hell for sending them duff stuff.

Got mine from Tottenham COurt Road for £360. It is the dogs! Small, fast, easy to use. Haven't tried movies yet and looking to see if there are 3rd party MP3 players but all in all very pleased... Huge step up from my Palm 3!

Do the movies have good quality?
And what size are they? Can you play music videos? full movies?

-Andrew
_______________________________________
Email me about anything at
andrewholler@rogers.com
Current PDA:= Palm M130
by the way, Can someone buy me a TT?

the m5xx cradles/chargers work but some peripherals may not without an updated driver (ex PPK)

There are some devices that use both the universal connector on the bottom as well as the two plastic indendtations on the back (m505) to attach. Specifically, I'm thinking about the Magellan GPS Companion. Obviously drivers are not available yet, but if that's all that's needed, I'll buy the TT and hope for the drivers. (I use my m505 with my GPS Companion quite a bit)

The TT has the two notches in the back -- they are part of the sliding part of the device, so devices that hook onto there should work. Those notches are actually part of the Palm Universal Connector specification, so devices designed to that spec should be physically compatible with the TT. Devices that use the connector but rely on other physical attributes (like the i705 thumbboard), won't work.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

Great news for everyone !!
Palm has heard us: they are now offering the 1.9 beta driver for the Stowaway keyboard on their support website:

http://www.palm.com/support/beta/tungstent_keyboard_legal.html

I installed it in my Palm Tungsten T, and it works even with my German keyboard.

AppCheck did not work on my m515.

I believe it's intended as a utility for TT owners only.

- D

that makes no sense. wouldn't a prospective TT owner who is a current OS1-OS4.x owner like to check his apps on his pre-TT device PRIOR to buying the TT?

> I believe it's intended as a utility for TT owners only.

Yep, I think you are right. I believe I mistakenly interpreted "Palm AppCheck for the Palm Tungsten T" as meaning that it checks to see if your apps will work on the Tungsten T. Apparently they mean AppCheck is ONLY "for the Palm Tungsten T". Still, it's odd that it pops up a dialog saying that it requires OS 4.

Part two. I had e-mailed Palm earlier about this today and received a response:

"The current version App Check is compatible with Palm OS(R) 4.0 or higher only. A version of Palm App compatible with the earlier Palm OS versions might
release soon. However, I am unable to provide you the exact time limit for release of this application."

So ... I have no idea why it wouldn't work in a m515.

App check for the Tungsten is, as it says, for the Tungsten.
The 'user manual' says run it and it tells you which application must be removed from your device.
I guess it's a Palm OS 5 small debugging environment with traps for non OS5 compatible calls.

Buy a Tungsten, we'll tell you which applications you should not have bought!

Running this flagged up two applications which are apparently incompatible (including APCalc, which I've found works fine), and listed unknown for the rest.

I'd suggest this application is just checking the names of applications against a database of known compatibles and incompatibles.

Thanks Gekko,

If you look at the side view image, you'll see the Voice Recording button and the headphone jack. Now, you see that little hole right between them? That's the port for the mic.

- Dan

I wish they had included a microphone jack.

I'm hoping they develop the Bluetooth headset profile for the TT! :-)

- Dan

The microphone "hole" is extremely sensitive. And one of the cool things of the app is to tell you how much time is remaining. You can give it a unique title, then Hotsync it to the Palm Desktop and export it as a WAV file. How cool is that?!?!

Why can't I get more than 8MB on my IIIc?

Can you export .wavs from the PC to the TT and/or TT SD Card???

Dan, if I understand you correctly, you want to use your TT as a speaker/mike for a BT-enabled phone. I had the same idea earlier today, and I think we're both sick puppies for thinking of it. :)

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

The sounds files are converted to wav files during your hotsync and are accessible through a palm desktop icon.

This unit is incredible.

One thing i didnt see mentioned is that the unit syncs so quick.

you need a OS5 PPK driver that is not public yet and may not even exist yet

No. It appears that Dan doesn't have an actual production device. Not only does the keyboard driver NOT come in ROM, his comment about the built-in four apps not switching through the various categories is also incorrect (as anyone with a T-T will attest).

My guess is that Palm sent him a pre-production device to review. Which is ok, but it just doesn't exactly match what is shipping and for sale. :)

I also found that comment strange... but perhaps as you suggest he doesn't have a regular TT.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, TUNGSTEN T!!

Thanks for the clarification Cal - fixes are in the works.

re: the hard buttons cycling through categories: in testing the TT I did a lot of hard resets and then restores of different device backups hunting for bugs, "gotchas" etc. What happened was I'd restored some old ToDos etc. and the Categories didn't get restored, so everything was "unfiled", so of course there were no Categories to cycle through, and the device behaved as it should. My bad :)

re: the Keyboard driver (v1.9T) : my bad again: it isn't in ROM but is optionally installed during the automated setup process from CD. I've got some Stowaways here, but none with the Universal Connector (i.e. PPK) so I couldn't test it. Others have reported it does't work. Do you know the release schedule for the updated driver?

Thanks,

Dan

I havent seen the keyboard driver anywhere on the 2 CDs that come with the TT. In fact I found the following note on the Palm site:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1A632A42

which I find kind of worrysome. I hope they dont make us upgrade our keyboards once again (already did from Vx to m505). It's a UNIVERSAL connector for crying out loud.

Zorglub: I havent seen the keyboard driver anywhere on the 2 CDs that come with the TT.

Did you do the "Installation" from CD1? I think the keyboard.prc is buried within the executable installer - I don't see it as a separate file anywhere either, but v1.9T was installed on the review TT during this process. I don't have the PPK with a Universal Connector, so couldn't verify that it doesn't work.

- D

Yes, I installed all the software from both CD1 and CD2. I've looked on my Palm and no keyboard.prc. Putting the Palm on the PPK launches the HotSync screen which confirms that the driver is not installed.

Dunno, maybe they pulled out the driver at the last minute? I'm using the European version, dunno if there is a difference there. If you can post the file somewhere I'll give it a try to see if it works. I really hope this is not a marketing plot to get us to buy new hardware, we already bought the new TT !

Me too!, I've looked all over the both CD's (USA) and no keyboard driver!!!

Please buy Palm stuff, I want my stock to go back up so I can sell it!

Hmm, I just looked through the bundled CDs and I didn't find the keyboard.prc either. Perhaps someone preloaded it onto the review unit before it was sent to me?

Are there any TT owners in PIC-land who have a version of the Keyboard driver (mine says 1.9T)

I hope you guys understand, but I'm not comfortable providing it for public distribution until I check with Palm and get authorization.

- Dan

Is it known if the infrared port and/or Bluetooth will work while using a keyboard with the TT? This way I could use a keyboard while connected to the internet through a cellular phone with Bluetooth or an infrared modem. Of course if using the infrared I/O, would be hard to align the PDA and phone, but seems Bluetooth would be a good combination in this setup.

Dan - I've tried the 1.9 driver (RC2) and it works fine with the keyboard. So I guess my fears were unfounded after all. I assume the driver will be released shortly and for free.

hurshtx - I dont think so. I think you can have only one serial port open at one time. The universal connector is one, so is IrDA and so is BT.

In case there's anyone who hadn't caught this in other threads, the beta TT/PPK driver is available at:
<http://www.palm.com/support/tungstent/>

- D

Amen to that.

Or any other company in the USA that's not TMobile! Heh.

I only know of that one SonyEricsson model that's available (from TMobile), but does anyone know of other cell phones with BT support from other providers here in the States?

Jim

AT&T offers the T68i. Also, there are several other ericsson and nokia models that support bluetooth.

AT&T has the T68i... But what is wrong with t-mobile? it works great for me. My new TT and T68i work great. The only thing I can not get to work is the Palm SMS app.

No with Verizon either. But keep emailing them, if enough people ask for them, maybe we will see them someday!

The AT&T 68i is locked into the AT&T service and only works if you have an AT&T sim card. Major bummer!

Admin - can you help. What is a Sim card. Is AT&T expected to over a more "Palm OS" friendly bluetooth phone. I really want to get my email on my new TT but it seems confusing. Especially w/At&T

Verizon does have BT capabilities if you have a Motorola Timeport 270c with the Bluetooth Module. Check this link out if you don't believe me! http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1E622A42

I'd love a Verizon 2.5G Motorola Startac w/Bluetooth and all-you-can-eat wireless data for $10/month extra for Xmas.

Verizon is about the only carrier that I can get a solid signal at my house with. But I'd be willing to switch to someone else if the price was right. Sprint has the right data plan. Verizon has the best coverage. T-Mobile has some cool phones, a couple with Bluetooth. Though I don't get why they only put BT in the super-fancy color phones. I'd like to see a cheap, bare-bones B&W flip-phone with BT seeing as I'd want to pair it up with a nice handheld ala the Tungsten T.

Scott

Ho hum.

At this point any Palm without built in cellular is behind two years. What is the purpose of being disconnected if you care enough to keep all the information handy?

And what is the purpose of a Palm next to the PC? Really the Palm is most useful when on the road, and people who care about "having the information" care about "being in touch, with emails, attachments, news, etc."

Tungsten is toasted.

Let's see the W. That's coming soon, like in 4 months!

By then Treo 400 and others will be out.

Lechter: Two devices means greater collective battery life. I can run my T68i to death and still look up appointments and read news on my Palm. I can upgrade my phone and PDA independantly of one another. If you're into a single device, then by all means gets one. But don't think we all want that.

As for connectivity: Bluetooth between my TT and my T68i allows me to stay connected just fine. YMMV.

CGordon, I agree with you! Sprint where is your BT phone? Also as a side not, what about the new Kyocera 7135 with BT card plus a Tungsten T? Yeah I know, total overload, especially on my wallet...

>>> I'd like to see a cheap, bare-bones B&W flip-phone with BT seeing as I'd want to pair it up with a nice handheld ala the Tungsten T. <<<

Ericsson still do the T39 I believe. It's a 'flip' phone with BT 1.1 and quite a nice greyscale display; WAP and GPRS. It is also TriBand so should be available in USA. You can get them cheap (ie. free) in the UK with a new contract (if you can still find them); or about £150 (~$230) SIM free (and unlocked, obviously).

My girlfriend has one, and it's quite funky (though not as cool as my T68!).

As for converged devices (like Treo and T|W): most people do not want to carry a PDA with them *all* the time, but do need a mobile. Plus, I suspect a T|T T68i combo can perform many more functions than an OS4.1 T|W or whatever the Treo 400 will do.

I emailed to Sprint and got the following response:

------
This is in response to your inquiry regarding Bluetooth technology.

We are rapidly expanding our 100 percent digital network service;
however, for competitive reasons, we cannot provide you with the exact
date of our service launch. When we launch in a particular market,
you will be notified through a high profile promotion.
------

I hope we see Sprint PCS with built-in bluetooth very soon otherwise I may have to consider changing to AT&T or others.

Taka

mfs, I have (had, waiting for my TT to arrive :) ) a m515 and I used PalmSMS for a short while, then switched to funSMS. Both worked pretty much out of the box with my T68i from T-Mobile. Found a nice page with setup stuff http://www.antonio.perrotta.com/palm/">here that gives settings on both the Palm and cell for the different Bluetooth functions. It says it's for the T39m, I used it and works with the T68i, just don't wanna pay 10 bucks a month for the internet APN, but SMS works off the same profile that WAP goes off, so that works fine.

Thanks Alex :)

It's very tough to make a judgement call about the long-term reliability of the slider - I've only had a few days "hands-on" so far, but my subjective experience is that it certainly "feels" solid. Frankly, the whole unit is highest quality throughout!

Any review worth it's salt will point out the bad as well as the good, and frankly it was tough to find any serious "Cons" - they're mostly nit-picks.

- D

: Is there any indication from Palm that they'll
: provide an upgrade when newer versions of the OS
: will become available? (AFAIK, the Palm Simulator
: is already at 5.1 level). The use of flash ROM
: would seem t indicate that they are planning
: upgrades...

Well, if you look at their history of support, then I'd say that the chances for UPDATES are pretty good, since you mentioned the 5.1 version, that's what I'm assuming you're referring to.

As far as UPGRADES are concerned, I'm not so certain (i.e. OS 6.0). And even if they do, it will probably be at a price, and not free like UPDATES.

Of course, having a flashable ROM doesn't mean that updates/upgrades are expected. I believe all Sony CLIE's ROMs are flashable but they rarely, if ever, provide either updates or upgrades for the OS.

Jim

oscpub: My understanding is that Palm uses OS 5.0 for the TT.
Is there any indication from Palm that they'll provide
an upgrade when newer versions of the OS will become
available?

Yep, the TT is running OS5.0.

I had a 30 minute call with the Tungsten T product manager late last week and asked about flash upgrades. The TT is defintely flash-upgradeable. Supposedly there will be incremental OS updates (5.1 etc.) released over time but there's no schedule or information that is publicly-available.

PalmSource Inc. hasn't released much information regarding what is being referred to as "OS the next big thing" (seriously!) and that the on-line User Community is calling OS6. What we do know is that it is for ARM-architecture devices. I'm betting that the TT will be flash-upgradeable to "OS-NBT" but that's just a gut feeling - I've got no solid info to back that up.

- Dan

Thanks, Dan. Great review!

Hey Zuber :)

I'm really looking forward to following up on this some more, and will definitely be covering the browsers when I do the Bluetooth article.

I found a reasonably good deal on an Ericsson T86 on eBay and can't wait to start exploring...

- Dan

Ditto: Great review but I'm really looking foward to more about the Bluetooth. I'm very interested in the realities of sending and receiving emails.

Also, AT&T is selling the Sony/Ericson T68i but after 2 hours on the phone and 1 in the store I couldn't get an answer re: using the phones as a modem for the TT. Also, does anybody have experiance with the GSM/GPRS service, is it more restictive.

I've used TT with my phone (Ericsson T39) over Bluetooth and GPRS in Canada (Fido), works like a charm!

Also, if your favourite GSM provider doesn't offer the phone you want just buy an unlocked phone from the web or ebay, if it works on North American GSM and it's unlocked it should work with any GSM provider.

SR

Is the Browser a hires Version? Does it Use 320 x 320 Resolution?

Christian Stocker

I think it is fair to assume that the browser is high res (320 x320).

My problem is that I really like the look of the Netfront browser. It has a Zoom Out option thar displays 640 wide. That could be very useful. Only problem is taht Palm have decided not to include it. I hope it is possible to download and install it from PalmSource or something.

Zuber

I find very little light from the screen lands on the graffiti area but frankly I don't mind. I owned a m505 and the lit area was great but no other Palm has EVER had such an area and we did without and so I will again. That said there must be a reason it isn't lit, ie. cost, battery life etc.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, TUNGSTEN T!!

doesnt seem to be lit but then again i wouldnt want this because i dont want the extra backlighting to drain the battery. What id really like is virtual graffiti.

The non-lighted grafitti area is a one main pet peeve I have with the TT. I have a lot of friends that work at night in low light conditions. How can they sneak around in the dark taking field notes with such a bright display giving their positions away?

Besides that pet peeve I guess another would be the inability to exit an app with the home button hidden when the machine is reduced in size or closed.

D. Martin
Former Amiga/Commodore Author/Writer/Reviewer

Or...

http://www.lumitector.com/

If you hold the select button in for about 1.5 seconds inside ANY application it will take you to the launcher (home)

"ska" wrote: from unamed video application developer? whatever happen to independent review and numerical conformation from PIC on Palm's claim? Did Palm makes PIC sign a letter not to test actual battery endurance, and benchmarking 4.1 application speed under 5.0?

Normally I wouldn't respond to this kind of baiting, but this is actually a good question (just phrased with an apparently cynical, provocative and probably PPC-biased slant )

Battery life testing is actually a very complex subject, and with the exception of Peter Strobel's articles at http://www.pstec.de , just about everything you read on the Net regarding PDA battery life is BS.

Asking "How long will my battery last?" is like asking "How many days will a tank of gas last in my car?". It depends on the car, how you drive it and how often.

For a PDA, an equivalent way of asking the quetion might be: how bright is the screen setting; how much time do the apps you use have the processor in standby mode vs. active processing; what is the current draw of the processor in these different modes; is IR beam receive on; is Bt on; how much audio / vibrate alarm / LED blink use; etc. etc. etc.

The best way to objectively test battery life is to hook up a precision current meter inline with the battery connection and measure the actual current draw over all of the various conditions.

Then to get any kind of meaningful real-world numbers, you have to develop "usage profiles" where a defined combination of parameters is outlined. The two that are presented in the review do that. However, they are results from outside sources and I don't have any way of confirming those results.

I'm tired of seeing all this poor battery life information being passed of as truth, and I've talked with Ryan about setting up some valid testing regimens to be able to present useful and comparable results for different devices under different usage conditions. It's a heck of a lot of work though, so I'm not going to promise anything just yet...

- Dan

Also, no one reports temperature, Li-Ion polymer battery life is very dependant on the temperature. I ran my tests with a calibrated thermometer sitting next to the unit.

How to create user profile.

set up a poll maybe. (what do you use your Palm most often for)
than the percentage is pretty much representational what the PIC readers care about. (ie. your reader, to whom the review matter most)

so for eg. if the result of the poll is:

A. what do you use your Palm most often for.
50% PIM
20% app
10% game
5% BT checking email
15% other

B. how long do you use your palm at a stretch usually
80% 1hr
10% 3hr
10% continuously till it die dammit.

then just set up a test that mimic those data.
have a monkey prod around a PALM for 1 hrs straight with 50% pim, 20% apps, 10% games,... repeat the cycle till the battery dies

...or something like that.

Good point Ron.

Have you tested other PDAs with the same regimen?

If so, care to share some results? :)

Thanks,

Dan

Can't find the exact data from a test I ran last year, but my recollection was that my then 2 year old Palm V (backlight off) had around a 7 hour battery life at cool room temperature (65-68F), nearly a 12 hour life under a desk lamp (82F), and around a 1.5 hour life when left outdoors at night at around 40F (testing done in that order). It wouldn't even stay on for 5 minutes when I tried to use a planitarium app with the backlight on outdoors below freezing once. This Palm V is 3 years old now, and a friend is still using it, so it still seems to have mostly survived all that abuse.

Since PIC is THE premier Palm site, Maybe PIC should develop a standardized battery test that emulates normal usage. This will give us a refence point when comparing the many palm devices available.

How do you standardise a test though? Clie NX70v users might consider a couple of photos or a movie 'standard' usage; but this can't be carried out on a 'standard' T|T. Same goes for thumboard; or BT on the T|T. Without devices being as standardised as PPC clones, there is really no standard test that can be carried out. Manufacturers tweak batteries and processors and power mamagement software to fir their device.

Basically, I think we're going to have to go by trial and error, and see what user comments are in forums. A device with a particularly poor or particularly good battery life will soon get the slating/praise it deserves. Other than that, so long as a battery survives a *reasonable* time, and the PDA has all the functions you require; then that should be the PDA for you -- a Honda Insight may have twice the fuel economy of my car; but I need a car with 4 seats!

FBN

metro7i: Since PIC is THE premier Palm site, Maybe PIC should develop a standardized battery test that emulates normal usage. This will give us a refence point when comparing the many palm devices available.

I've talked about this with Ryan, and hope to get it set up sometime in the not-too-distant future.

I fully agree that this would be a very valuable information resource for the Palm User Community.

I'll keep y'all posted....

- Dan

Back envelop calculation about device efficiency.

IPAQ3900
1400Mah, 4.5hrs, ~311 Mah/hr (mmedia loop, see link)
Tungsten
900Mah, 3.5hrs, ~257 (official Palm Inc's definition of use)
900Mah, 3.3hrs, ~272 (infosync.no, game loop)

It seems to me the wild claim about OS5.0 on OMAP will be twice or three times as efficient are bunk. With much smaller screen to lit, and no sound test, Tungsten still perform only about 10% more efficient than iPAQ.

anybody has NX battery number?

referance:
http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/iPAQ/3900/3900-1.htm
http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2495,2.html
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4490

kosmos: "claimed battery life is 7 days under the following usage scenario: default brightness (40%); 30 minutes / day PIM application look-up and entry; and no use of SD slot, audio or Bluetooth. "

7 * 0,5h = 3,5h

Don't forget to add in the 23.5 hours x 7 days x standby current when the device is "off" (a.k.a. "sleeping" still refreshing memory etc.)

ksomos: So... Tungsten T's battery life is only 3,5 hours ?!?! My palm m515 lasts 10 hours with backlight off.

Is that using RunTime? That doesn't work on the TT, but hopefully someone will write a similar app using the new Notification Manager for OS5.

ksomos: "Dan: what's your experience? How long does the battery last?

I haven't had it long enough to offer a bottom-line answer; and haven't done any lab testing (yet). I've also been putting in the cradle a lot (HotSyncing like crazy the last few days!) so it's been getting very regular top-up recharges most days.

For some anecdotal info: I read an ebook off SD for 4 hours straight the other night with the frontlight on a fairly low setting, and the battery gauge in the Launcher was still over half. (Of course, the battery gauge should not be considered an even remotely accurate tool, and the voltage discharge profile of LiIon Poly battery pack should be considered, and yadda yadda yadda...)

I'll be sure to report back with some more info once I've had some longer-term results, but for now, I can safely say that the TT can easily accommodate a full day of heavy use. Also note that the screen is *very* bright and I've been using it at around 25% on the brightness slider.

- Dan

ska (again): Back envelop calculation about device efficiency.

*sigh* "A little information is a dangerous thing."

Why do you waste your time comparing apples and oranges? If you're really interested in comparing the efficiency of the different ARM processors running the PPC OS and PalmOS do a search for the *real* results that have been posted by engineers from Motorola (DragonBall MX1) and Intel (XScale) and report back here with some links.

Please also be sure to include information about Pocket PC 2002's power optimizations for the 400MHz XScale!

And while you're busy producing meaningless numbers, here's a bonus question for extra marks: compute the "power efficiency" per device weight as well. (FWIW: I replaced my former PPC reference device, an iPAQ 3870 with a Toshiba e570.)

- Dan

Why only E570? Have the whole series and win happy meal too. (okay okay. that was sarcasm )

but seriously it still won't push Tungsten in the top 5 battery performance on that chart. (if it were being tested in same condition)

chart and testing condition toward the middle of article.
http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/iPAQ/3900/3900-1.htm

PS. be carefull with the statistic on the battery test regiment. ;-)

my number might be nonsensical but I state it carefully what the number is about and what is the state of the accuracy.

Ska, don't forget that the OMAP in the TT is faster in graphics intensive operations (which need the most speed anyway) than any of the PPC's on the chart.

don't we need battery test first before we can say this?

There have been a couple tests already. 3.5 hours was reportedly running an action game (CPU mostly active). My test (see previous post) was running a clock display (CPU mostly idle) resulted in 4.5 hours before the 1st warning. Someday, I may run a test with the backlight off; my guess is 6 hours before the 1st battery warning if kept in a warm room.

I'm sorry but the Tungsten just seems to be another gimmick by Palm. It may have a super screen but it just doesn't seem to stand up to the CLIE line. It's MP3 capable but doesn't come with an MP3 program?

- Palm SHOULD have included an MP3 program but it appears from this PIC review that they tried but had to release to market in time for the fall buying season without it because of development delays, but will offer it for free online in a matter of weeks. Certainly someone savy enough to play MP3's on a Palm will know how to download a free program for it.

The sliding case is nice but other than make the device smaller it serves no purpose. At least the Sharp case slides to conceal a keyboard. The device is small enough with the case extended.

- This is the silliest thing I ever heard. Making the device smaller IS A PURPOSE and a VERY IMPORTANT ONE TO MANY PEOPLE! The sliding case DOES conceal something, a graffiti area which the Sharp doesn't have... so take your choice, keyboard or grafitii but they both only cover one thing. Also your statement "this device is small enough with the case extended" may well be true for you but MILLIONS of Palm V and m5xx series users got them for the size and have long wished for even MORE pocketable models.

The five position center button is o.k. but it doesn't rotate and looks like an attempt to mimic the Pocket PC devices.

- Doesn't rotate? I don't follow. Further when I pay big bucks for something I want the best and if PocketPC had a good idea with navigation buttons like this then why should Palm avoid them?

Palm missed the boat when they abandoned the Palm III and Palm V footprint. Add a faster processor, expansion slot, memory and hi-res screens to these devices and you've got marketable competition to the CLIE. Instead they produced a "cute" little M series that sent everyone screaming to Sony or Handspring or Pocket PC.

- I was addicted to the Palm V footprint, but this is way better in terms of footprint in my opinion. Have you even held one?

Now they've introduced another trendy device with a cute little sliding case. All it needs now is interchangeable faceplates.

- Wow. Try looking at it in person see if you feel the same way.

Want to spend $500 on a PDA? Buy a CLIE or Pocket PC. You get all the bang the Tungsten offers and you don't have to pay extra for the MP3 player.

- MP3 player will be free. PocketPC OS stinks IMHO. Clie is beautiful but way to large for many people, and the keyboard isn't nearly as nice as on a blackberry or Handspring Treo. I have no use for the camera. The battery life on the Clie is much worse than the T.

Every unit has someone who likes it and clearly Clie's, PocketPCs, Sharps, etc. all have there pluses. That said it is a gross mistake to generalize that the rest of the Palm buying world shares your needs and desires and then flame into a new unit like you just did.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, TUNGSTEN T!!

The MP3 player will be free according to the review. Please read before comment.

I have a clie, but if i didnt, I would be really tempted to get one of these. I'm just really addicted to the camera and hires+, but other than that, i would have gotten one of these in a heartbeat!

---------------------------------
Oh wow! Guys check this out! The new Clie has more than 1000 dpi!! Guys? Hey come back here! *runs after them holding a spec sheet* I didnt even show you the Keyboard!!!!!

"The battery life on the Clie is much worse than the T."

Last I checked the Clie was coming in at around 3.5 hours as well.

University of Miami
2001 National Champions

Man,I can remember 3.5 hours of use with the original iPAQ resulted in jeers and proclimations of how worthless the device is. Now similar battery life is met with not a hint of dissatisfaction from the same folk who jeered two years ago. How perceptions change!

You need to remember that 3.5 hours on an iPaq a couple of years ago was with what you might call "heavy use." The 3.5h quoted in the review refers to an unofficial test while playing a video off a card.

Get some perspective before you start chastising people about their perception...

An interesting point about "gimmicks." The Palm TT is derided for having a sliding form factor that makes it smaller, yet the Sony NR series, which has a double flip folding screen is somehow seen as non-gimmicky.
Gimmicky is in the eye of the beholder.

but besides having a nice screen and the little sliding part, the Tungsten doesn't seem to offer anything new to the PDA market.

Yes, it is small. But how small do you have to get? By using the measure of "the smaller the better", there's a PDA watch out there that would be the best thing since sliced bread. Sometimes when you get too small you loose functionality. Just as if you get too big, you loose practicality.

I like the NR70 that I use. It's the right size for me. I liked the Palm IIIxe I had before moving to Sony. I didn't like the m series or the treo's. Too small.

The screen is impressive but I'll take the Hi-res screen of the NR any day. Just need more Hi-res programs to be released. Has anyone seen the Hi-res version of Bejeweled? Very nice.

Ok. Gimmicky is probably in the eye of the beholder and I see the Tungsten as gimmicky. Some see the flip screen of the NR and NX CLies as gimmicky. But at least it serves a function.

I still hold true with my belief that if Palm had have built on the Palm III or Palm V footprint, they would have been better off.

If the Tungsten is what turns your tractor, then go for it. I'll keep my NR70 for now.

Can PIC explain what is the criteria for 4.5/5

for battery on the final test, than giving a comment "OK for multimedia".

-what sort of multimedia has been tested on it? How do you create a multimedia "loop" for 3 hrs continuously? (there is no mp3 player, and kinoma is not stable enough to play for 3 hrs continuously)
-what does the number mean? no other handheld receive grading on battery criteria except "Zire" and zire receive 5/5
-How would you rate the rest of handheld you have reviewed to give context what the battery rating really means. (eg. Clie760, t655,NR, M515)

I really hope the rating is some serious evaluation, not just Mickey Mouse sticker. thanks.

SaabCaptain: Dan can you address the following either here or in other articles on the site... Thanks!

Those are all *excellent* questions, and we're searching for the answers myself. Once Ryan and/or I get some answers we'll be posting to PIC -- count on it :)

I do have an NX70V for review and hope to post it before too long. It'll likely be a two-parter, because I don't have the PEGA-WL100 WiFi card yet.

If you're interested in checking out the various OS5-compatible ARM processors, here are a few links:

Palm OS Ready Program: <http://www.palmsource.com/about/os_ready.html>

OMAP1510: http://makeashorterlink.com/?V29952A42

XScale PXA250: http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2A914A42

MX1 Home: http://makeashorterlink.com/?G47913A42

- Dan

Currently, the DSP on the OMAP 1510 is used for tasks like audio playback and recording. It can be programmed with custom DSP code to handle other tasks, but that code would likely have to be written by Palm or a party working closely with them. TI has a OMAP developer program where they show how to write things like MP3 players or video decoders using their DSPs, but right now, the interface to program this part of the chip is hidden in the internals of the OS and not exposed to general application developers.

I would think that its pretty likely that Palm would expose this functionality to a partner like Real who is working on a media player for the device. Using the DSP to do audio decoding would be a very smart move, especially for power-related reasons, as the DSP can be much more efficient than the general purpose ARM code for this task.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

From this article at BrightHand.com:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Analyst_Day

One of the most interesting demonstrations of the day came from Texas Instruments, makers of the OMAP processor used in the Tungsten T. Gilles Delfassy, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Texas Instrument's Wireless Terminals Business Unit, ran some fairly intense graphics tests against both TI's processor at 144 MHz and processors from "another big chip maker" running at 206 MHz and 400 MHz. Let me tell you, the OMAP processor cleaned Intel's clock, finishing the test in less than one-third the time. Mr. Delfassy claimed that not does TI's processor operate more efficiently (it uses as little as one-sixth the megahertz to produce the same numbers of MIPS) but it consumes significantly less power -- more than 90% less power than a 400 MHz Xscale processor in standby mode.

One OS, various processors and various co-processors...

Mac Users do you rememeber the days when we had 68k, ppc and fat codes for all the applications...
Palm is heading this way as well... except that on the mac you did not care that much, we had enough space for fat code on the recent machines.

But on our HandHelds?

PS: sure I'll trust TI when they say their processor with their application consumes less power than some other's chip; anyday man, anyday.

According to the test results, the 175Mhz OMAP was 3.2608696 times faster than the 400Mhz XScale using the same OS and same application. The TT did not come with the 175Mhz OMAP (much to the disappointment of some), but the 144Mhz OMAP is still 2.6785714 times faster than the 400Mhz XScale in the tested functions.

To match the performance of the 144Mhz OMAP for this particular test only, you would need an XScale running at 1.06Ghz.

Don't go crazy with these numbers, as they only represent specific functions, not overall performance. There are probably some functions which may be faster on the XScale which would close the performance slightly, but, graphics is one area that can surely use the horsepower.

Geez, I know I'm begging here, but I really did want the processor on my Palm to outrace the stinky Intel Xscale by a factor of 2.6785715! :)

B

observer the 7 digit precission.

I just got my first native ARM (armlet) small integer benchmark (Byte sieve)running on the Tungsten-T (144 MHz OMAP/ARM9). It indicates a performance roughly similar to that of a older 100 MHz PowerMac (PPC603e CPU). This is a very preliminary result, with no compiler optimizations. YMMV.

I posted more benchmark info in the discussion forum. The Tungsten-T 144 MHz OMAP is "only" 34 times faster the Clie T615C with a 33 MHz Dragonball 68k, running this small integer benchmark.

IanJD A small usability question for Dan or anyone else; once of the nicest things from my point of view of the way