Comments on: Editorial: New Pocket PC's, Same Old Story...

I am a pilot, and I use my old Palm V with the Streetfinder GPS as a nav aid. The battery life is great, it's so much cheaper than a dedicated GPS unit (a decent Garmin will run $1,000), and it does exactly what I need it to do.

Lots of Palm software for pilots: www.palmflying.com

--d'Armond

Just hope you're not up in the air when the battery runs out... :)

I'm not on one side or the other in this debate, but I think that Palm has got some serious competition with the new Dell PPCs. Price isn't the only concern; features or percieved features are a huge part of the cost/benefit analysis. And when you put a Dell next to a Zire, there's just no comparison. I'm not even talking about RAM and MHz, I'm talking about MP3, JPG, MOV, Bluetooth, expansion and out-of-the box compatibility with all the goodies that Microsoft puts out. Granted, much of that is more hype than reality on the Pocket PC, but the perception is what's important.

Even so, Palm's got a good strategy. Months ago they introduced their M130, and now the price on that is $200 or less. That pits the m130 against the Dells head-to-head. On a straight comparison, the Dell wins. But if Palm can get the Zire customers to look at the m130 instead, they may diffuse the competition. It's going to be rough, and it's going to take a LOT of marketing money to make sure that Palm customers don't go over to the PPC when they see a bright-n-shiny Dell next to a functional but unexciting Zire.

Palm Inc, has a little less than 300M cash and hasn't make any profit this year.

While Dell is one of the most profitable computer OEM in the planet.

You want to have a marketing war against Dell? (Plus Microsoft in co-promotion)

ehhrrr..... ok sure.

DSpeers:

If you really want to see a cool system, check out www.teletype.com

There is a nice (not tried it) Bluetooth GPS solution available for the Palm. Check out http://www.infosync.no/show.php?id=2529

The sofware is probably not much use, but it's the GPS I'm thinking of.

Zuber

To Ska,

Keep your mouth shut if you can't back it up. Palm did make money in the quarter ending March 1, 2002

see the financial for yourself

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X3E553D62

A profit of $0.01 per share

this company has never been as bas as people have made it out to be. Just like apple, people love to see a company as about to die. Aint happening.

The Zire is currently the 11th best selling electronics item at Amazon.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O42625D62

Zire buyers have to be new Palm users, noway would anyone downgrade from any other palm made since the palm professional to a zire.

Palm is expanding its market in a recession. Very impressive.

The Tungsten T is the first palm which will make a lot of users think about upgrading since the Palm Vx. The Palm has the top and the bottom of the market excited. That is impressive.

Hmmm, I still don't see the Zire as any reason to get excited, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Talking to the BBuy salesperson when I got my T|T the other day, not many other people seem to be getting excited over the Zire either. He said they'd sold as many (if not more) T|Ts since its release than Zires. He said that the m130 was actually outselling the Zire--so maybe Palm should hold off on forcing the m1xx series into retirement.

Dell just put a kiosk into my local mall. If people get a chance to play with their PDA line at these stations, then they might start doing some serious business in the PDA market.

Now back to my original point: the Tungsten T, after a period of initial skepticism, has me as excited about the future of the Palm OS than any device since I got my Vx back in spring 2000. It also seems that developers are finally getting stirred into action and adding/improving their VFS support at the same time they release their OS5-compliant product updates. of course, I'm having to say goodbye to a lot of older games that have not seen an update in ages (Tankpilot 3d etc).

I've been very surprised at the reaction people have given my T|T thus far. Everyone, even semi-luddites, seems to love the screen and the sliding mechanism. It's the voice recorder that seems to "surprise" peoplee the most. Most of my coworkers and colleagues think that "nifty" feature alone makes it almost worth the $500 price I disagree, but of course, to each his own.

To summarize everything so far, the Best Buy salesman and I determined that Palm needs to get rid of the frightful looking lady on the Zire's garish packaging and should have had a selection of cases/styli available simultaineously at retail to conicide with the launch of the T|T.

>>Keep your mouth shut if you can't back it up. Palm did make money in the quarter ending March 1, 2002

ehrr, and than what happen on Q3? and what is the income balance for the year? Sorry no dice, 2002 is not a profitable year for Palm.

>>The Zire is currently the 11th best selling electronics item at Amazon.
#14, E740 #20 M515 .... The not yet delivered Viewsonic outsold Tungsten, and ToshibaE310-330 are sold out.

oh well.... let Zire save Palm.

Palm expanding? (yes after an 50% implosion in Q2.) not much to expand from isn't it?

Ska, you do need to keep your mouth shut. PPC's OEM's have lost so much more money than Palm Inc has, and they still aren't profitable and don't look like they're going to be turning it around anytime soon, especially by selling new PPC's at a loss.

It's pathetic you can't just admit to simple facts.

---
This signature is witty. You like it.

It’s not uncommon to find 150K+ apps. on my Clie –

Agendus – 393 K
AvantGo – 318 K
BugMe – 231 K
Fast CPU – 339 K
HanDBase3 – 466 K
HandStory – 203 K
Palm Reader- 266 K
Quicksheet – 253 K
Quickword – 282 K
Yi Show – 245 K

Other apps. that I’ve tried which have large footprints: Zap! 2016, Bonsai, Iambic Mail, Breakout, Deep Reader, Splash Shopper, Mahjongg!, McFile….

Most of these apps. are what I use daily on my NR-70 & Visor Edge.

On my iPAQ:

PTVL – 510 K
Dashboard – 540 K
HanDBase3 – 609 K
EWalllet – 444 K
Pocket Streets – 302 K
Palm Reader – 252 K
NPOP – 219 K
WithMP3 – 275.5 K
CIH – 219 K
Stop Time – 165.5 K
HanstoryPPC – 195 K
WisBar – 48 K
My Shopping List – 57.1 K

Interesting to note that PalmReader and Handstory actually have smaller programs on the PPC than on the Palm (assumed PPC would have the bigger app. !) PPC files are, in general, bigger than on a Palm, but not THAT much bigger (i.e., 150K vs. 4 MB).

Don’t’ mind the fact that Palm apps. are 150K+ even with 16 MB RAM, you’ve got Jack Flash and PiDirect to help out. On the PPC, everything will easily fit in 64 MB RAM. All programs and DBs (AvantGo, PTVL, etc.) still leaves 43.61 MB free.

So I can store 64 MB of programs on the PPC and use it at the same time? I think not.

The 64 MB of RAM is split up for two parts: storage, and for active programs. In fact, most of the time it will automatically do a near 32/32 split with your ram (half for storage, half for running programs). So, in real life, you only get about 30 MB for storage (not sure you can count the 6 MB filestore in the ROM as storage :-\).

Load 64 MB of programs on your iPAQ, then have fun playing with it. :)

------------------------
Mario Masitti
O/T Mod
I Love Tennis :)

You are forgetting the fact the part of that 43.61MB free is typically used as additional system ram and not just for data storage. The argument over size of ram is fairly useless anyways. Palm is getting away with less ram for now, but will bump ram in the future without questions.

The pocket pc is a flawed platform because it is based on a flawed platform.

Nuff Said.

you only need about 500k to 2MB to run most program, unless you are playing things like Quake, or Mame with massive image.

to effectively store same amount of program title, Palm devices need to consistently have 1:4 memory ratio. (14MB:64MB). That might be even crippled further with additions of office apps and essentials utilities/Hacks, which in PPC are stored in ROM.

This might be just dandy with things like tetris, horoscope calculator, or other tiny and inane titles, but once it start hitting anything with database file, pictures, sounds.....

kapooof...... the advantage is gone. Most of the newer Palm game already start hitting .4MB-.9MB. Various office apps already balloning to .4MB- .95MB

Another thing is that you are comparing the best and largest programs on the Palm OS to the smallest programs on the PPC OS, yet they're still larger. That must be the point Ryan was trying to get across.

---
This signature is witty. You like it.

Don't worry, in order for Palm OS tobe able to run the biggest of PPC programs like Pocket CAD, multi language Dictionary, AudioPhrase translator or The whole Quake package. Tungsten still have several years to go...

For now, let's start with basic, how about real web browser and real MP3 player that won't take up 10% of free space?

HA!

First things first: you can't compare palm to pocket pc by comparing applications size!!! one details that one forgets: f**in' DLL's`! have you thought of that?
each pocketPC app comes with one, of course hidden by the system.
I personally first start with a palm pro 5 years ago, as a professional tool. Then I got bored of (And jealous) colour screens so I bought a pocketPC. I played around for about one year before going crazy.
How can a 150mhz processor run an OS this slowly?!?!?
and you gotta have 400mhz to come near to a 33mht palm responsiveness??!!? (Seriously...)
I must admit that reading the posts above, each one is fighting for his camp and that must be respected.
But to me, pocketPCs are just toys, it's nice and sexy, but only lasts 6-8 hours and most of the guys posting comments on forums on the internet mainly use them for multimedia (and you know it well). The bottom line is that a pocketPC or palm is supposed to be a business tool. And pocktPC doesn't close even close to something that ressembles an efficient tool. On the efficiency scale, palm is 8/10 and pocketPCs 4/10 when they don't run out of battery after a day's work and loose all the memory's contents. Well if you're looking for a gadget toy, go for a pocket pc. If you want an efficient business tool, palm is the definitive answer, and that's why they're no.1 on market share. Still palm lacks native windows file support (which we are locked down with since 98% of all use windows everywhere). I hope it never comes otherwise palm will have to compromise in including windows functionalities which will criple for good the palm os. Let palm be a cross-platform independent OS, we definitely all need that. I also hope old Bill will optimize pocketPC's OS, otherwise we will be forced to have 2ghz pocketPCs to open a word or powerpoint file. crazy.

Palm outruns windows in efficiency, and that's the MAIN point.

superstel: let me guess, you don't own Tungsten right?

ska: let me guess, you're not really here for the conversations right?

Most of your posts are aimed only at stirring up yet another controversy and frankly you're becoming a big pain in the behind with that.

If you have constructive criticism, I'm sure that most people on this board will be more than happy to lend you an ear. But the way you give a negative twist to just about anything you post is annoying the heck out of an ever increasing number of contributors.

If you're so convinced that Palm can't keep up with PPC, then do us all a favor and find yourself a nice PPC board to post your rants. Your current behavior here only serves the purpose of collecting points for being eventually banned. Or so I hope.

You know, you stated that you were thinking about moving to a PPC because of a couple of neat GPS apps. Have you considered the EMTAC bluetooth GPS unit and a TT. I am looking into this heavily. Combined with some of the great Palm GPS apps out there (IE Mapopolis) I think it would be a cool device.

PS...I started with a Palm, moved to the darkside, and now back to Palm as of 2/2000. *grin*

Long Live Visor Prism

SKA don't Know Rithmatic...

2nd QTR implosion? Your uninformed babble betrays your IQ...there are much larger companies on this planet that would love to be in Palms financial position right now. No, they're not Microsoft but they continue playing hardball with Billyboy and his cash war chest... I suggest you hit the math books this weekend son.

Ska: >> Don't worry, in order for Palm OS tobe able to run the biggest of PPC programs like Pocket CAD, multi language Dictionary, AudioPhrase translator or The whole Quake package. Tungsten still have several years to go... <<

CAD and the entire Quake package. Yes, that's *exactly* why 99.9% of people buy PDAs. I complain enough about running AutoCAD on a 21" monitor. Exactly what do you do with CAD on a tiny PPC Clone screen. Are you perfecting the designs for your mechanical girlfriend or something?

I find it pathetic that you evidently don't have anything better to do than sit in your darkened bedroom hurling ill-informed comments about and disrupting the harmony of PIC message boards. We are here because we are interested in the Palm platform. Why are you here? This site is not a surrogate for your non existent life.

FBN
FBN

I use PocketCAD on my Pocket PC, why??? do you ask,
because I cannot carry a full blown pc with 21" screen or a laptop around on site to survey buildings. PocketCAD is used primarily for that reason. You can amend drawings on site and use it for drawing up surveys in 'real time'.

regards,

Kerwin Robertson.
CAD Manager


Kerwin Robertson + Tungsten T

Hello to part of the 0.1% of PDA users out there....

I would just like to point out a few things...
ska: sure, pocket pc is great, i would love to own one.... but.... too expensive for a start (i am a student) and there is no need for a 400mhz XScale processor that can run as fast as 33mhz Dragonball VZ processor.

If you want to carry a full blown computer OS in your pocket, sure go ahead, buy a PPC, but if you want something small, elegant, and plain easy to use, buy a Palm.

Katunka----also known as slim devil

Sure if you want something under $199 for this christmas there is no other choice beside Palm OS, but some other time, and some other price range, your statement is debatable.

I have jumped back and forth between Pocket PC's and Palms a few times now. I originally had a NEC Windows CE handheld... then bought a Palm III (which I loved) and now am back to owning a Pocket PC (a T-Mobile Pocket PC Phone edition, which I adore). Buuut, when my girlfriend wanted a PDA, I bought her a Palm Vx...

Here's my take on things: I am a IT professional, so the power of the Pocket PC appeals to me. Palm users can argue till they are out of breath, the Pocket PC is simply a much more powerful device. I can get on 100baseT networks, or 802.11b. I can VPN into my office and connect to a termserv session and reboot servers remotely. I can play Realvideo files, Mpeg movies... I can listen to an mp3's *while* working on an excel document. The Pocket PC truly does have PC-like capabilities, and in my line of work I used them all fairly regularly.

But that doesn't mean that I would recommend the Pocket PC for everyone. My girlfriend couln't care less about watching videos or playing mp3's or connecting to the internet. She wants a convenient way to check her schedule, get phone numbers and occasionaly play a game of Alchemy. And this is where Palm excels... they create small beautiful devices that are reliable and do a few things very well.

It would be like trying to force Windows 2000 Advanced Server on my grandmother, when all she really needs is Windows 98. Not everyone needs the power (and inherently added complication) of the Pocket PC; and nonetheless, not everyone wants the simplicity of Palm.

I think both Palm and Microsoft will continue to share marketspace for a long time, neither managing to get too much of an edge over the other. I do think Microsoft will increase it's marketshare some, especially now that it's prices are coming down though.

I'd rather be rich than stupid.

I agree with you 100%.

The choice of PDA is too personal for me to make judgements for my users. That is why I support all PDA's regardless of flavor. EXCEPT THE ZIRE.

PDA's Owned: Palm III --> Aero 1550 --> em500 --> T415 --> IPAQ & Palm IIIc

I agree with you, Zero101. The PocketPC is a very nice toy, but 8 hours of battery life? I think it's laughable. Palm battery life, in my opinoin, is deteriorating. I read on C|net that the m130 will go for 12 hours between charges. That compares to almost double that of a PPC. Also, someone said that Windows for Pocket PC is "a flawed platform" which I agree with. Pocket PC's are more expensive and their battery life worse because the OS needs beefier hardware to run. I mean, a 400mHz processor? Jeez, that's faster than my 3 year old computer. Palm OS, however, is optimized for the Dragonball/ARM processor it runs on, so it needs less power to do the same things. Palm apps are also optimized. Less RAM+Slower CPU=Better Battery Life. Those who argue that Windows for PPC is more powerful might be right now, but with OS 5 coming now and OS 6 on the horizon, they will soon be proved wrong.

As my final comment, I will say this. When fuel cells are finally viable for use on PDAs and cellphones, PPC's should be the first to have them. Then, maybe they will gain some more market share.

________________________________________
I've been working with computers for 1/4 of my life. Beat that.

> Who knows how long Microsoft will continue the different lines of Pocket PC
> Editions and Smartphone-OSes until it merges them all under the Tablett PC-OS

About as long as it takes for many gigabytes of flash RAM for Windows XP to be cost effective, and power requirements for 2 gigahertz processors to become reasonable. It'll at least be a few years. Don't forget that tablet PCs are more expensive than desktops or laptops, and will probably stay that way for some time.

The tablet will fail. How many consumers will successfully write on it without touching the base of their hand to the rest of the screen?

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.

Just to clarify: The Tablett PC is not a touch-sensitive interface. Rather, the stylus employs a magnetic field that is detected by the screen. Resting your wrist on the screen does not do anything.

Magnetic field? Don't these things have a hard drive in them? Doesn't sound right to me.

I assume it's a very small 'electrostatic' magnetic field, similar to the one used on my graphics tablet. This shouldn't interfere with hard drives, airport metal detectors, teeth fillings etc. Still, means you can't prod at icons on the screen with your finger or biro though.

FBN

I agree that there are strengths and weaknesses to each platform. This is an EDITORIAL and I have labeled it clearly as such. It expresses an opinion and you're welcome to make your own judgments from it, but I base my opinions on accurate facts and analysis.

Someday soon I may write an article about what I like about Pocket PC's and what I dislike about the Palm OS. But please don't accuse me of "Palm-boosterism", I am NOT trying to give a
detailed analysis of each platform in this article, nor am I trying to fan a flame war.

ps- If you miss Ed, you can still read his work at Brighthand.

-Ryan
webmaster@palminfocenter.com

IMO, it would be best if Ryan didn't discuss Pocket PC at all and stick purely to PalmOS coverage. This is after all a PalmOS site.

He comes off sounding a bit nervous. And frankly, I wouldn't turn to a single platform centric PDA enthusiast web site for insightful, unbiased views of the mobile market.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs

"PowerPC PDAs"? Is the Apple OS X PDA really being released this time? ;)

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

TobyG: "PowerPC PDAs"? Is the Apple OS X PDA really being released this time? ;)"

Ha! I knew the rumors were true! At last we'll finally see Newton, part duex.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs

Bookrats: "One of the things I really appreciated about Ed Hardy, former Palm InfoCenter editor, is that he worked hard to do even-handed evaluations and editorials"

Well, I liked Ed, but he doesn't exactly strike me as "unbiased". Quite the contrary. His editorial on the future of PalmOS.."But any other company would see the writing on the wall and drop it (PPC)." doesn't sound like unbiased commentary to me.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs

I agree with Ryan's writing in the "What Matters Most?" section in particular. I get into a lot of playful arguments with other Palm users about which Palm OS device is best for some person or function and it comes up a lot that regardless of what function is added to a Palm the main four PIM apps have to work well, and the thing has to be simple to operate. The fact that I can also plot satellites, web browse, control routers, etc. loses value if the main simple function isn't there.
This is why I'm so pleased with the Tungsten T/M550. The PIM apps usefulless is improved, accessibiltiy and ease of use is improved. I can also use it as a great ebook reader without losing primary functionality. My Clie NX is great and beautiful but it's very awkward to pop it open while I'm driving and look up a number or read a note. The TT excels in the "take it out of your pocket and get what you need" function.

> "But any other company would see the writing on the wall and drop it (PPC)."
> doesn't sound like unbiased commentary to me.

It is a very accurate business analysis. Only Microsoft could afford to do what they continue to do in the PDA market. Most all the other players have already dropped it.

I do disagree with the original poster though. This is an editorial, and there were some like it in the Ed Era so this is nothing new.

Of course this site is Palm biased.

I keep having to remind myself that this is an editorial, as most of this article is so Palm biased.

Do you even use a PPC? Most of what you say isn't even fair, and I happen to love both my T665C and my Genio. Although they overlap in a lot of funcitonality, the PPC's do have advantages over Palms. So I hope you write that article soon.

"IMO, it would be best if Ryan didn't discuss Pocket PC at all and stick purely to PalmOS coverage. This is after all a PalmOS site."

Maybe you are right, but same can be said about the doom and gloom talk concerning Palm on various PPC sites Foo. And you know that....Jason and his friends at PPCT aren't really "objective" for instance.

"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

This article did come across to dismissive and not even handed at all. Clearly Palm is the superior platform but to state it will anyomous quotes from Handheld insiders that state unbeliveable things like "the new Samsung Platform (32 megs RAM, 200 mHz ARM processor, PocketWord, PocketExcel, PocketOutlook, MP3, video playing etc.) looks bad compared to even a Pilot 5000." Come on, even I won't say that. And to not acknowledge that PocketPC has for the first time ever really flipped the pricing tables on Palm units on the high end, well it just seems misinformed.

Palm wins clearly but this back handed slap of PocketPC makes it look like the author is nervous.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, TUNGSTEN T!!

"An unnamed Handheld industry insider has confided in us... "Microsoft is way late to the field on this one, I would recommend a used Palm Pilot 5000 before that Samsung reference design. The (5 year old) Pilot 5000 even looks more attractive." "

I am sorry but this is so not true that I think either that person is a Palm zealot or Ryan is a Palm zealot ... it's just so false that it's not even funny.

is this article written just to chear up Palm users ?? otherwise Why Compare !? .... I am sorry but I think I am switching to brighthand.com, ever since Ed is gone PIC just went down hill ... there's not much news story , not much reviews , not much rumors anymore ....

Wait a minute, since when did the Tungsten T become known as the m550?

-------------
Burning Desire: The want or need for something great.
Burning THE Zire: A fun recreational activity involving setting Palm's new crappy handheld ablaze.

Good Evening-

I just double-checked the address of this website and sure enough, it is www.PALMinfocenter.com. Imagine an article on such a website being pro-Palm OS? How heinous! How fiendish! So tricky! Here I was trolling the web for a good unbiased source for handheld computer editorials. Just because the subscript at the top of each and every page on this site bears the motto, "All Palm OS News, all the Time", doesn't really mean anything. I feel so cheap and used! I fell for the oldest trick in the book...honesty! Damn!

Whatever. Troll for another website. Marry Ed. Whatever. Just give it a rest. And while we are quoting ratios, let's repeat a very important one:

15,000+:500(maybe?)

That would be the available software titles for the Palm OS to the number available for the PPC.

Here's another:

1000:1

The number of times a PPC crashes (1000) to the number of times a Palm OS device will crash in the same time frame.

PPC's have their place. On that I agree. It is just not along side a Palm OS device for comparison. PPC's appeal to a certain demographic (which I will not define here). Palm OS devices appeal to everyone else.

IMHO.

-J. in Florida (Sony CLIE NR70/v user)

For the record I am not a PPC expert, I am a Palm OS expert. I have used both platforms extensively. I carried around a t-mobile PPC Phone Edition for 2 weeks and found it frustrating.

I am not trying to paint either platform as the superior choice, it's the market that ultimately decides, and in this case the market has voted 25 million (Palm Devices) to 2~3 million? (PPC's sold). Take from that what you want. There are pros and cons about each platform and each has their own merits... so forth and so on...

-Ryan

oh come on ...

nobody is blaming you for championing PalmOS. But it's sounds bite like:
-users really don't care,
-Spec is irrelevant,
-It's hard to find any file under 500k in PPC,
-Palm OS is creal winner in PIM category,
-to enable "mass costumization",
-strength of the palm economy
-Microsoft's approach is one of mass production...

It's wee bit like reading opinion column in HighSchool newspaper, or worst, a recycled Palm marketing seminar. Even Zdnet doesn't do it anymore.

at least you are not blabbering about zen, price advantage across the board, weeks of battery life, and 20,000 developers anymore.

Can you even fathom the PDA landscape 2 quarters from now? Reading PIC's opinion piece from last year sure doesn't sound like it.

Come on? I am merely stating facts in the comments, the article is an opinion piece.

Those might be interesting fact, but as a user/reader I user can't apply it to my purchase or basic understanding which PDA is better.

I mean, do I go to the store thinking, ...oh Palm has "better palm economy"..therefore I will buy Tungsten.

Now if you have a hypothetical article that once and for all says: PPC is really poo. PALM is the best. for eg. memory use is better in Palm. I can load up 7 application with 10 MB to spare while in order to do the same I have to load up 225 application with only 1MB to spare in iPAQ3975. Tungsten is definitely a champion in using memory efficiently...... GO BUY Tungsten. PPC is a poo.

(same goes with other, CPU clock, killer applications, hardware features, responsiveness etc etc)

Real honest to God hard comparison sure can change buying decission.

First, I think that this is an unfair comment on Ryan. Ed had his way and it was nice (still is over at Brighthand). Ryan has his way and it is nice. Both are (were) without a doubt Palm biased. However, it is a very well reasoned and thoughtout bias that, arguably, is supported by the facts.

Which leads me to my second point, I agree. The PPC has bridged the price gap and the size gap but not the OS/usabilty gap. A few weeks ago I tried a E-310. Reasonable price, beautiful hardware, great screen. I returned it after a week. The thing did not work. I agree with Ryan using a PPC was frustrating. That is the best description for it. Crashes, battery concerns, memory management, file management, corrupt files, missing files - basically everything that is wrong with the desktop was now in the palm of my hand. I firmly decided that while everything was very pretty, it was easier (much easier) to get the job done with my Palm. Despite all the hacks, etc I had running on the Palm, the PPC crashed much, much more often without anything fancy going on in the background.

Simply stated - the Palm OS simply works. And at the end of the day, my friend, that is what people really want.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

useybird: "Wait a minute, since when did the Tungsten T become known as the m550?"

That's what Palm has on the back of them right next to the serial number.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

"Whatever. Troll for another website. Marry Ed. Whatever. Just give it a rest. And while we are quoting ratios, let's repeat a very important one:

15,000+:500(maybe?)

That would be the available software titles for the Palm OS to the number available for the PPC.

Here's another:

1000:1

The number of times a PPC crashes (1000) to the number of times a Palm OS device will crash in the same time frame."

Ummm. The Pocket PC has thousands of applications available, and it's just as stable as the Palm OS. I'm no Pocket PC troll, I am a user who actually knows what they're talking about. I own a Palm and an iPaq. Your opinion seems to be made up of several untruths that you picked up from similar Palm trolls.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

Ive been to Brighthand before Ed moved and thought it was pretty, but kind of sucked content wise. It was like reading a ZDNet-ish review extrapoltaion of what's on the box (have you read the TT review - ack).

PIC has always been more technical (hoping for even more) and more enthusiast oriented. I've not seen evidence of PIC influence by Eds moving as of yet. Maybe he is still warming up. Ed had some great reviews too but they are not at Brighthand. Im still pretty satisfied with the content here, #1 by far. Not only content but the frequency is keeps it fresh. So maybe it really is the PIC thinking and values that make it what it is.

Ryan,

I enjoy your work with this site, but think that you dismissed this particular criticism to quickly. The piece does have the feel of boosterism, and even in an editorial, it is essential to have a balanced perspective. Also, whether or not you agree with the criticism, your suggestion that "If you miss Ed, you can still read his work at Brighthand" (which I will acknowledge could have been intended completely sincerely), seems to take this more personally than it was (probably) intended. We *do* like your writing and this site and are therefore invested enough in it to comment. By analogy, I also avidly read the NY Times, which I love. But I also publicly have taken on opinion pieces there when I believe they are less than balanced. My goal, and presumably the goal of the poster to whom you responded earlier, is to offer a different perspective, in an attempt to make a good thing better.

elo

I see. Someone does ONE Palm OS vs. PPC OS editorial (which I don't see there being anything wrong with) over 4 years and he's a raving zealot.

>>IMO, it would be best if Ryan didn't discuss Pocket PC at all and stick purely to PalmOS coverage. This is after all a PalmOS site.

>>He comes off sounding a bit nervous. And frankly, I wouldn't turn to a single platform centric PDA enthusiast web site for insightful, unbiased views of the mobile market.

Why not, PPC Thoughts is obsessed with Palm. You're over there all the time and know what goes on at that site at least 3 to 4 times a week. Hansberry's so sick of not having anyone to argue with anymore (after Dunn chased anyone that hasn't already drank the kool-aid) that he's decided to come over here to spread FUD too.

And for the record, I don't see where Ryan sounds "nervous" at all.

I went over to the dark side, in a moment of curiosity and evny and came right back. A Song T615c user I purchased a Toshiba e740 PPC with builtin WiFi after seeing a friend use it to wirelessly check email outside an internet cafe that was closed at the time. That feature was very cool and the ability to view all attachments and browser the web in IE was pretty impressive. I felt like I had a PC in my hand. Which was just the problem.

As a small PC the PPC is really quite nice, but I have a laptop and what I needed was a PDA, not a PC. You can't get info into the PPC. I often use my palm one handed while stuck in LA traffic to look up a number or make a quick appointment, this requires two hands and the sylus on the PPC, you can't even use your finger, which I use all the time as a stylus on the Palm. It was even more dangerious than using a palm in traffic.

The PIM is aweful, you can't tap and write and appointment on any of the 3 third party PIMs I tried on the PPC and the screens are illegible in daylight. The form factor is very 1997, and the battery life, which I never worry about on my palm is a constant concern on a PPC. Who wants to worry about how long you are using your PDA, you just want it to work and work well.

I returned it to BestBuy (30 day money back) and got a Tungsten T. I love it! and with SD WiFi coming soon I'll be the envy of the PPVC world. Plus as a former Mac user now stuck on a PC by work, I feel a bit better using a palm than another Gates gadget.

EdH (not Ed Hardy), I know there are plenty of PPC apps smaller than 500K... I'm talking about the majority of software.

Let's look at the #1 selling PPC app.. The Omega bettery thing. It's larger than 500K and provides some of the same functionality that has been standard on the Palm OS since version 1.

I also agree that Palm devices should include MUCH more onboard RAM and that is a weakness. You can never have enough ram and when you run out that's what SD cards are for.

Is 16 Megs still the limit in OS 5, or did Palm and Sony only include 16 Megs just to be cheap?

Heh heh ...

This must be the first time (in my memory) that I see Ed H. got soo mad at something. :)

Love isn't about becoming somebody else's "perfect person." Rather, it's about finding someone who helps you become the best person you can be.

Oh come on Ryan - the #1 app on Palm according to Handango is DateBk5 and is 600K on the device.

On the Battery Pack 2002 by Omega. I didn't realize the Palm had built in:
*Battery Bar with estimated hours and minutes, backlight control, RAM and storage card memory status and talks to you when the battery is low if you like.
*A Cleanup function that would delete temp files (like IE Cache or Avantgo cache) if you wanted
*A Program Bar that will put 60 shortcuts on your home page
*A Powerstore feature that will give excruciating details on battery, RAM and storage card(s) status.

Very cool. Good for Palm users. PPC users have to pay $9.95 for this functionality.

"This must be the first time (in my memory) that I see Ed H. got soo mad at something. :)"

Is that sarcasm? If not, you must be mixing up EdHs. This isn't Ed Hardy, former editor of PIC, and current Brighthand. It's Ed Hansberry, the PocketPC guy. He's always fuming about Palm in one form or another. He probably pays more attention to PalmOS news than Palm Users do. ;)

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

And to be clear, the 16MB Tungsten only has 14MB available to the user according to palm.com. Back off 800K for the RAM based browser, 2MB for the office suite, ~500K for he media player, whenever available, 300K for the Acrobat Reader, 1MB for the VersaMail client, throw out another 2MB for the SMS features, BlueBoard, BlueChat, Mobile DB, powerOne Personal Calc, CopyTalk, etc. (I think I am being very very conservative on the 500K for the media player and 2MB for all other.

All of the sudden, 14MB is 7.4MB. Then there is Avantgo and its cache, but no one can get that to work on the Tungsten T, so I'll leave it off. Now put your data on there and an ebook or two. 2MB for a bible perhaps? AIM, a game or two and maybe pseudo file manager. Now go to your Palm forums and see how many questions you get about "how in the world can I install apps to my SD card?" and "can this run from the SD card or do I have to copy it to RAM first?" and "Why doesn't this thing have a file system?"

Sorry - there are absolutely merits to the PalmOS and platform. No question. But 16MB is laughable on anything over $200.

I really can't believe that MS can't include the ability to launch an app from the today screen or even close an app from memory when you tap on the circle "X"; without making their users shell out an additional $20.

The Palm OS has had this ability since the first pilot.

I've let the Citrix guys know all about my thoughts concerning a Citrix thin client for the Palm platform. They come back with canned answers that they apparently got from Microsoft. Along the lines of Palms aren't used in corporate environments, the processors wouldn't be up to speed, Palm has an insignificant market share and so on.
If I had a Citrix thin client for the Palm I'd have a modem on my Palm (or use an i705). I've used Palm VNC and it works ok. I'd like the more complete integration of an actual Citrix client...

There are several freebie apps to launch apps from today screen. On the other hand, How much do you have to shell out just to have "Today" screen on Palm? let alone launching app from Today's screen.

.but than again, you got free monopoly game with Tungsten... weeee....... !

You can launch apps from the today screen - Calendar, Tasks, Email and Alarms. For free you can use Launcher to put icons on the Today Screen and Pocket Nav to switch/close apps. Both free, both well under 50K and at http://www.scottandmichelle.net/scott/cestuff.html

Battery Pack 2002 ($9.99, not $20) just does a whole lot more.

I am still waiting on your reply to your #1 app being a 600K app, not under 150K. Seems Palm users aren't interested in 150K appletts.

CEPlaylist - 185K
eWallet - 462K
nPOP email - 236K
ListPro - 411K
Palm Reader Pro - 280K
Pocket Informant - 403K
PocketRSS - 240K
PocketNav - 39K
vxUtil - 78K
City TIme - 363K
Daily Reader - 229K

Let's take a look at some of those apps...

First of all, you'll notice that 3 out of the 11 you listed are over 400K, so not too far south of the 500K Ryan mentioned. Second, you seemed to go to great pains to list some extremely "simple" apps. PocketNav is great, but it's more of a hack, than a full-blown application. If you want to talk about hacks, well then the average Palm hacks would be smaller still.

Taking a look at a few of the apps installed on my Samsung i300 (Palm OS-based smartphone), I see apps such as:
Blazer 362K
FreeCell 32K
Galax 50K
Mapopolis 1098K (this includes two maps, one of which is 566K, the other is 363K, so the actual app looks to be about 199K)

How about listing the sizes of some games?

You'll get no argument from me that with OS5, the size of apps will increase. But it does appear as though apps aren't increasing in size as much as even I expected. Want to compare JPGs and MP3s? Sure, they should be the same size. But even on a PPC, I'd expect that you carry these sorts of files on a memory card anyway, so why should the 16MB on the Palm matter?

Scott

"Want to compare JPGs and MP3s? Sure, they should be the same size. But even on a PPC, I'd expect that you carry these sorts of files on a memory card anyway, so why should the 16MB on the Palm matter?"

Well, in all fairness, how Palm OS and PPC use memory cards is extremely different.

I use my MS for almost all of my apps on my clie, but the PiDirect nonsense is just that - nonsense.

Helluva lot easier in PPC to just run something and not have to trick your OS into seeing the card (one folder at a time). Heck, Epoc had this years ago working fine too.

the VFS in the Palm OS is evil. It needs to die once OS 6 is out.

Bejeweled (the number 2 palm ap on handago)is around 96K, how big is its PPC equilvant, Diamondmine?

EdH:
"Lets talk JPG's and music files. Those don't shrink. A 200K JPG is a 200K JPG on any platform."

This is a specious argument. Even if I had a PocketPC, that stuff would be going on an external card where it belongs.

ska:
"There are several freebie apps to launch apps from today screen. On the other hand, How much do you have to shell out just to have "Today" screen on Palm? let alone launching app from Today's screen."

Nothing: http://www.freewarepalm.com/utilities/today.shtml

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

TobyG: "This is a specious argument. Even if I had a PocketPC, that stuff would be going on an external card where it belongs."

Uhm... wrong. If you have a photo library, yes, it will go on a storage card. But all those JPGs in your browser's cache, or an image, or 2 or 3 images emailed to you are gonna be in RAM, if your device doesn't run out of memory when you try to download them.

Scott R,

I can't believe you are trying to compare game sizes for Palm vs. PPC. Yes, the PPC games are much bigger, but that's because you get a whole LOT more game. The graphics and sound on a PPC game make the Palm games look pathetic (OS 5 games should be a lot better). So what is your point?

Lucan

"Uhm... wrong. If you have a photo library, yes, it will go on a storage card. But all those JPGs in your browser's cache, or an image, or 2 or 3 images emailed to you are gonna be in RAM, if your device doesn't run out of memory when you try to download them."

Uhm... wrong. Therein lies the rub. Even with a PocketPC, I wouldn't want other people emailing JPGs or MP3s to me or to be downloading them off the web. If I want to browse the web, I'm not going to be doing it on a 3 inch screen. That being said, Versamail can store attachments received by email to expansion.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

There's no question: the fact that SD memory cards don't seamlessly behave like additional memory is a serious design flaw on the Palm. I can understand it's difficult to implement this and still maintain backward compatability, but the fact of the matter is, when you add more memory you should get more memory, no questions asked.

Remember the days of DOS 6.22 and those crazy memory drivers that helped break the "640k barrier?" It was a nightmare for novice users. We're experiencing similar growing pains for Palms now (though I don't understand why the Palm designers could not have forseen it) and as a consequence, there's a significant opportunity for Pocket PC's to shine in this area.

Please, Palm, get organized and build a unit that resolves this issue!

Palm Researcher at the University of Texas at Austin
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/petrosino/pda

am i the only one that noticed that these lists of apps that are >150k on palmos are kinda short? there are 15,000+ applications out there for PalmOS. I have about 80 of them on my palm. the vast majority are under 100k. that's right under 100k. i have a couple dozen games (mostly smaller puzzle games, average around 50k apeice because they're all color), some little utilities, and yeah, i have a few big apps (don't think the 1.2mb of space vindigo takes up doesn't hurt a little) but they're not representative of the majority. and they're not necessary for everyone.
someone mentioned the size of the docs to go package. nuts to that. the only office app i have (or need) is wordsmith. so, there's 550k. fine, but that still leaves me with 1.45mb that someone who actually wanted docs to go wouldn't have.

users aren't required to get the biggest/latest/greatest software. if they want to replace some of the built-in apps with more powerful software, there are small-footprint options. for example, my favorite addressbook is addressplus, weighing in (with color and hires support) at a measly 78k.

don't some of you get annoyed by the (very) vocal minority after a while?

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

TobyG: "Uhm... wrong. Therein lies the rub. Even with a PocketPC, I wouldn't want other people emailing JPGs or MP3s to me or to be downloading them off the web."

Well, that is you. When I am on the road my wife will email me a few pics of an event or something going on with the kids I missed.

You and I can argue about this all day long. The point is, in 1998 you and Palm fans said the same thing about 2MB and 4MB devices when WinCE had 16MB devices and in 2000 it was 8MB when Pocket PC moved to 32. Now you have 16MB and PPC has 64MB with 128MB coming. The difference is the features and capabilities of the PPC has dramatically increased and the need for more RAM is justtified.

Palm, on the other hand, doesn't fundamentally do any more now than it did in 1996 other than what hardware has been added. And you've been losing marketshare since going public in 2000 for this very reason. OS 5 is meant to stem the tide and OS 6 is meant to reverse it. Well, guess what OS 6 gives you? Everything Pocket PC gave you in 2000. I dare say not a one of the 16MB defenders will complain in Nov 2003 when Sony or Palm releases a 64MB OS 6 device.

quote:: Oh come on Ryan - the #1 app on Palm according to Handango is DateBk5 and is 600K on the device

EdH, according to pocketpcthoughts the battery pack is the #1 selling PPC app.

I understand that Ryan. No problem. My point was, if you are going to use the #1 app on PPC according to Handango as a determination for an apps size, I was going to use the #1 Palm app on Handango for a Palm determination - therfore, 600K.

My real point was, the #1 app is NO INDICATION of the average app size.

Just to clarify - the PPC thoughts app ranking is a Handango feed. PPCT doesn't sell anything by itself - it is a Handango store.

OK, I see what you were trying to say now, I seem to have really hit a nerve with ppl with the app size comment.

EdH: "Well, that is you."

Yep, and yet the converse seems to be excluded from your thoughts? ;)

"When I am on the road my wife will email me a few pics of an event or something going on with the kids I missed."

Mine can do that too, or post it to the web. However, I'm going to receive it on the laptop which I need since neither PalmOS or PocketPC can run a couple apps that I need for business. When I can replace the laptop with a PocketPC it might become more attractive, but even the ultra-not-yet-released PocketPCs don't have 512MB of RAM and 10-20 GBs of storage yet.

"You and I can argue about this all day long."

Nah...I'd probably give up before it went an entire day.

"The point is, in 1998 you and Palm fans said the same thing about 2MB and 4MB devices when WinCE had 16MB devices and in 2000 it was 8MB when Pocket PC moved to 32."

Weird. This must have been some bizarro-world TobyG. In 1998 in this world, I recommended that my company standardize on Windows CE devices like my Casio E-11 because of things like voice-recording, email synchronization, direct editing of Word documents, etc. It didn't pan out. Nobody wanted them, and all the executives bought Palms personally.

"Now you have 16MB and PPC has 64MB with 128MB coming. The difference is the features and capabilities of the PPC has dramatically increased and the need for more RAM is justtified."

Other than color and amount of RAM, how much is there that the PocketPC can do that a Windows CE 2.x device like my E-11 couldn't do that's due to the OS (and not hardware capacity driven)?

"Palm, on the other hand, doesn't fundamentally do any more now than it did in 1996 other than what hardware has been added. And you've been losing marketshare since going public in 2000 for this very reason."

There was no 'me' in Palm in 2000 (and ultimately still isn't). My current PDA is the first Palm PDA I've ever purchased.

"OS 5 is meant to stem the tide and OS 6 is meant to reverse it. Well, guess what OS 6 gives you? Everything Pocket PC gave you in 2000."

PocketPC never gave me anything in 2000, either.

"I dare say not a one of the 16MB defenders will complain in Nov 2003 when Sony or Palm releases a 64MB OS 6 device."

Why should they?

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

"Is that sarcasm? If not, you must be mixing up EdHs. This isn't Ed Hardy, former editor of PIC, and current Brighthand. It's Ed Hansberry, the PocketPC guy. He's always fuming about Palm in one form or another. He probably pays more attention to PalmOS news than Palm Users do. ;)"

TobyG, you are right. I did think EdH = Ed Hardy, former editor-in-chief of PIC.

But on second thought, Ed Hardy is still covering Palm, even at Brighthand. So he would never say such thing. :)

Love isn't about becoming somebody else's "perfect person." Rather, it's about finding someone who helps you become the best person you can be.

"I thought this debate was settled back in the early '90's, when MSWindows trumped Macintosh with a clearly inferior user experience, but much cheaper hardware.

Price and perception of value is all that matters."

Excellent point and I agree 100%. Like Ryan, I completely agree that after several years the PPC PIM apps are still awful in comparison to Palm's (simple by comparison and relatively unchanged) PIM apps. The PPC OS has more than its fair share of quirks that annoy me to no end. And in PPC 2002, they even went so far as to break the repeating alarms (so if you don't hear the alarm the first time, I guess you'll be late to your meeting).

**BUT** - As much as I may be into the fact that the usability of the Palm OS is why everyone loves it so much, I know that that simply isn't the case. The average user will be more productive on the Palm OS and will (if using a PPC OS) find many things annoying, but few will be able to pinpoint exactly it is about the Palm that they like better than the PPC OS. No, the reason why Palm has had a big advantage has been in the areas of price, size/weight, and battery life. The PPC has had the wow factor for some time. But the average consumer either didn't care for the size of the device or couldn't justify the price. Now that PPCs are getting smaller and cheaper, I think we finally will see MS start to take over the market. Dark times ahead, indeed.

Scott

That is Jonas Lindstedt, sorry Jonas. (SP) :o

The whole price argument in favor of Palm is a straw man AFAIC, and really doesn't hold up over time. Why? Because my 8MB Casio E-11 cost significantly less than 8MB Palms at the time, and even a bit less than 2MB Palms.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

There is enough of an installed base that Palm devices will be around for a long time. That being said, you're right, if Palm doesn't get $200-$300 Tungsten devices out, then they aren't going to be a long term player.

Even more so, they need to hit the low end harder. Rip out the lith-ion battery from the Zire, replace it with AAAs, and sell it for $50. Even more vital, bring out a dirt-cheap made color Zire for $100.

Dell's coming out with a $150 color PPC next year. If Palm doesn't undercut that price with a color device, I'd say they are done sooner rather than later.

Palm always seem to use the same pricing strategy on their highend models. The M515 was once $450-$499 and now their $260.00.

I bet come springtime we will see a Tungsten with more memory etc. thus driving the price down on the T model.

>>>We all know that Palm and PPC are different. In design, in mark position, and in price. Sure with the new Sony and Palm OS5 modles, there are areas were Palm powered PDAs can be compared driectly to PPCs. But lets not for get that both PPC and Palm gets sold in store (and on line) because different people have different need and there is no best PDA for all of us.
------------
I am sorry to break it to you, but the two brand are targetting the roughly the same customer and the core set of features are the same. (PIM, office file management, various personal management software)

what you are saying is really, two door sport sedans is not the same as 4 door family sedan. Yes theya re different, but the basic features offered and target audiances ARE VERY similar.

That's why people are comparing Palm and PPC, asking the quesitions, can it do office app and manage my PIM? can it play my music? which one can do better/cheaper....bla bla bla......

now If Tungsten (or any other PDA) is so different than the rest of PDA. What exactly is the difference?

You have made some good points. Others reading this should consider both views.

Love isn't about becoming somebody else's "perfect person." Rather, it's about finding someone who helps you become the best person you can be.

"Love isn't about becoming somebody else's "perfect person." Rather, it's about finding someone who helps you become the best person you can be."

-- can I throw up now?

>-- can I throw up now?

Go ahead, Mike. I already have. :-0===

Now children if you don't stop this bickering I'm going to have to send you to your rooms for a time out :)

Please buy Palm stuff, I want my stock to go back up so I can sell it!

Try Clie NX70 or 60, and you will be singing a different tune.

Also some people love the Tungsten for its portability and conncetivity (Bluetooth integrated). Even Palm 515 looks big compared to T.

...and couldn't agree more with you.

When I bought my first PocketPC I was group 2...then, as things became more complicated in my life I decided to make things simpler and looked for a PocketPC aimed at the group 1...well guess what? None available on the market.

I went to the "dark side" and bought a dirt cheap PalmOS device.

I think the new super inexpensive PocketPC will attract more of the group 1 users considering PalmOS devices and the users like me who've been PocketPC enthusiasts and want a simple offering.

"Try Clie NX70 or 60, and you will be singing a different tune."

Well, the only thing that those devices bring to the table (aside from the amazing screen, on par with the new iPaq) is wifi.

Battery life is attrocious. And if you're the type of person who hates big PDAs, the NX is def not for you.

Doesn't make it that appealing after all......

I like the way you put it on par with Ipaq. Who make the Ipaq screen but Sony? In fact with 320x480 resolution, Sony's screen looks so much nicer. Just compare the two next time you happen to be in your local computer store.

NX brings a lot of multimedia capability that wasn't available in Palm. In fact, when I compared the two media recently, I would put Sony ahead of PPC in some if not most of multimedia capabilities. That has been supposedly PPC's strength in the past, and I don't see it any more.

If you talk about Wi-Fi, try to set up both devices using one, and you will see why people love Palm OS so much more.

Quote from the article:
"In short, it's not about having a PC in your pocket." Um, in short, at least for many of us, it is *exactly* about having a PC in your pocket.

-- that's the truth. Some people just want PIM. Some people want PIM with much more -- PPC (or Sharp's Linuxed PDAs).

But this conflict will go away as the capabilities of the platforms even out. Palm OS 666 (as I call it) will bring many features that power Palmists have wanted for years. (But that doesn't mean *Palm itself* will include them in its hardware -- where the hell are the promised Themes for OS 5?!!?)

I do have to say, however, this nonsense of a mono PPC is just that: there was the Compaq Aero, the Casio E115 (I think it was), and even a mono iPaq. All were dropped for color. PPC just isn't made for mono. (Sigh... all the monPaq onwers will jump on me now...) (But, geez, who wants to look at MONO video?!)

(sigh) these conversations just go nowhere. But i'll respond anyhow....

"I like the way you put it on par with Ipaq. Who make the Ipaq screen but Sony? In fact with 320x480 resolution, Sony's screen looks so much nicer. Just compare the two next time you happen to be in your local computer store."

Why do i care who makes the screen? I'm not talking about resolution (and i know i set myself up for someone to do a stupid resolution comparison...). I'm talking about brightness and clarity. I think the new NX and the iPaq are the best. Yes, I HAVE compared the two in the stores. This is why i made the comment.

"NX brings a lot of multimedia capability that wasn't available in Palm. In fact, when I compared the two media recently, I would put Sony ahead of PPC in some if not most of multimedia capabilities."

Well, I still can't play DivX on the palm, and i have to convert the files anyhow, so it's not so great.

"If you talk about Wi-Fi, try to set up both devices using one, and you will see why people love Palm OS so much more."

Haven't done wifi on a Palm (don't own a Handera or NX) but my roommate's iPaq was setup with no problem in no time at all. Pretty much set up the same way i do on my laptop or desktop.....I don't see what you mean about any of these being hard. Also, the Handera was the only Palm to have wifi before this NX. True wifi, not the stupid bluetooth to phone stuff. I mean, plug my cf wifi card in and start surfing. So it's not like there are all these case studies of Handera users saying how easy it is to setup. Wifi wasn't an option for many since not many people bought a Handera. This might change with the NX being out.

That being said, i find it funny that though i have always used the Palm OS and don't even own a PPC, i always end up being the one sticking up for it. I just can't stand ignorant posts, or opinions stated as facts. (no one take that as a direct attack, i'm being general here).

Lots of folks want a gameboy/mp3/movie player in their pocket. Those aren't the same folks who DEPEND on their PDA for productivity.

I need my PDA to actually have some juice in it if it's been sitting on the desk for a day or two. PPC devices are horrible at this... I charge my Ipaq and it's dead a day and a half later whether I use it or not. Leave it alone for a week and all the data is wiped out. The battery experience with the Tungsten, by comparison, has been excellent... if I leave it at 60% battery power and turn it on the next day it has the same amount of power.

Office apps with D2Go is about 10X better than pocket word and excel. Built-in bluetooth, with the exception of the Ipaq no PPC even knows what the hell this is. Wifi is a cute toy but worthless outside of the office (Starbucks has it, whipdee doo). I can use my GPRS phone and Palm to check mail anyplace I have a GSM signal.


http://home.attbi.com/~page.jason/Pics/new_blueTT.jpg
____________________________________
My PALM OS 5 Tungsten Bluetooth Setup

do you have anything to say about PDA? or just babbling about the state of speech on the net?

It's hard now to get defensive when somebody from the "other camp" slams your PDA. I know it sounds petty, but most of us really like the Palm OS. This web site should be sufficient proof. The new 550 is extremely capable. I love mine. I can't wait to see what Sony will do with OS5. We (Palm OS fans) had to suffer for years hearing the PC guys brag about their multimedia capability, processor speed, etc. Haven't noticed any of that talk since OS5 units appeared. The TT appears to be significant for being the first Palm that can compete head-to-head with the PC. No longer is it a weaker sib with slower speeds. While the Palm OS has made great leaps in the past few years, what has the PPC done? My prediction is that when OS6 comes out they completely crush the PPCs in all objective measures, as well as in the breadth of software titles.

Tuckermaclain: "My prediction is that when OS6 comes out they completely crush the PPCs in all objective measures"

Not unless Palm and Sony can compete with PPC on price. $500 Tungstens and Clies are never going to hold their ground against $199 Pocket PCs, no matter how wonderful OS6 may be.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs

Babble? Yea, I suppose to some people it is. My point, as a Tungsten owner, is that these holier-than-thou diatribes just end up being nothing but "mine is bigger than yours" arguments. Based on my experiences with previous Palm models, a HP PocketPC that I briefly owned, and the Palm software I own, I purchased the Tungsten because it does what I need done better and faster than previous models did. Tungsten's speed is great, the display is sharp and form factor is superb. The machine can stand on its own merits.

I agree with other writers here that the simplicity of the Palm OS is "just right" for most of Palm's targeted customers. Few customers care what technology is running under the hood. They do care that alarms go off on time and that appointments can be quickly and easily entered and the unit works when they need it.

---
"Look, I can write my name in the snow!"

"The TT appears to be significant for being the first Palm that can compete head-to-head with the PC. No longer is it a weaker sib with slower speeds. While the Palm OS has made great leaps in the past few years, what has the PPC done?"

Give me a break... the pocket PC has incorporated 802.11b wireless networks into their devices, gone from 150mhz cpus to 400mhz xscale processors, increased ram, all while descreasing the size and price.

Today, I can get on Amazon and buy a Toshiba e740 with 64mb of ram and built in wifi for $379 after rebates. And the unit is slim and very well designed. While I am certainly not trying to bash Palms, it's certainly a compelling arguement for the Pocket PC camp, and is a great example of how the Pocket PC has evolved over the years.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000658CE/qid=1037211465

I'd rather be rich than stupid.

Hrmm, the Toshiba e740 sounds like something to stay away from....some comments from the user reviews: "Battery life is extremely short. 1 Hour if you are using the Wifi - 3 Hours at the most for everything else", "The display really sucks, especially when you compare it to the Casio E125. Forget about using it in the Sunlight", "TOO many lockups. 2 to 3 times a day I have to reset. Toshiba is well aware of this problem. No service pack available today and no date for the release."

Sounds like a real mess to me, 1-3 hours of battery life, poor display that can't be used in sunlight, lockups and apparent lack of support from Toshiba? I'll pass.

It seems like many of the positive reviews of the Toshiba focus on all the cool features but not some of the critical useability issues.

-Mandroid

"After 1 month I purchased Clie, it started not to recognize the memory stick. The staff at the store had one also and her Clie (same model with mine) was doing the same problem. Since I have extended warranty they changed easily. But still this is not a good sign."

- A review from the first Palm-based PDA I went looking for.

Everybody is going to have their gripes and post them on reviews. Wifi sucks battery? Big shock there... if I used a compactflash model, I would expect similiar results. Color screen doesn't look good in direct sunlight? No kidding, really? I have yet to find a color PDA that looks good in direct sunlight.

These all sound like the normal gripes you would expect of a device like this.

I'd rather be rich than stupid.