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Comments on: Palm Debuts the Zire 71 and Tungsten C Handhelds

Palm Solutions Group today debuted two new handhelds, the Zire 71 and Tungsten C. The Zire 71 is a new consumer model with an emphasis on multimedia, featuring a built in digital camera. The Tungsten C is aimed a Corporate Campuses and power users, with built in WiFi wireless, a 400mhz Intel XScale Processor and 64 MB of RAM.
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it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?

kidA @ 4/23/2003 1:02:29 AM #
well it's official. i'm also quite surprised that the T|T is still $399 on the site and the m515 is still $299. if that doesn't change soon, those folks at palm really are nuts.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
jbeedham @ 4/23/2003 1:16:23 AM #
Best Buy has been selling Tungsten T for $349 for quite awhile now. The local best buy is not getting anymore of them. This gives me the feeling Tungsten T is gonna be replaced soon. MAkes me wonder if Tungsten C is teh replacement or if there is another version of the Tungsten T coming.

-------------------------------------------------------
currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue.
RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 1:32:03 AM #
The M515 is a dead-end product. I'm fairly certain Palm will kill it within the next 30-60 days.

RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the re
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 1:44:40 AM #
The m515 is still thinner and lighter than any of the new units, and seems to have better battery life than the TT or Z71. But there does seem to be a price conflict between it and the Z71.
RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
TobyG @ 4/23/2003 7:19:48 AM #
"well it's official. i'm also quite surprised that the T|T is still $399 on the site and the m515 is still $299. if that doesn't change soon, those folks at palm really are nuts."

For the M515 maybe, but considering the final release specs for the Z71, I'm even less convinced that the T|T deserves a price drop than I was before.

RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
Zracer81 @ 4/23/2003 9:24:22 AM #
Agree m515 needs to be gone - its just keeping the TT higher priced. The Best Buy near me has TT at $399. When purchased Best Buy mails a $50 gift card. I guess it all works out in the end to $349 but I don't like the gimmick.

Z71... That reminds me of the performance package on an 84 Corvette. Rough Riding but loads of fun.

Keep the m515, just drop the price.
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 11:17:37 AM #
While all of the new units are very trick, there is still a need for a decent, small, PDA, which should be more moderately prices. The m130 doesn't fit

I have no idea why both it and the T are priced so high, but they need a price reduction.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
hkklife @ 4/23/2003 2:24:40 PM #
I agree. They should move the original Zire's price down to $79 or so, and release (essentially) the m125 with the latest OS 4 rev onboard in the Zire's formfactor. Of course, a backlight and a full set of hardware buttons would be necessary. If they could cram on a 5-way mini joystick from the Zire 71, it'd be a perfect unit to release at $125 now and then have down to $100 by Christmas. It's a shame such a device could not have been out right now to catch a lot of the "Dad'n Grad" purchasers out there. At the very least, Palm should slash prices drastically on the last of the m500's and m125's.

Otherwise, today is quit a good day indeed for the Palm world! I just am holding out for a refreshed T|T with a backlit Graffiti area.

RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
Fzara2000 @ 4/27/2003 1:01:37 AM #
Or even a virtual graffiti ;)

Could it be!?!? The return of Fzara2000!?
Or could it be the new models from Palm!?

Nah. I just wanted to have a nice bash. ;)



"Now thats just PRIME!"

No DSP on Zire 71...

Radu @ 4/23/2003 1:11:41 AM #
I was expecting a DSP on Zire 71 (based on previous info), to handle the multimedia load. But it seems that the processor is OMAP310, which has only the ARM core. The MP3 playback will probably not be as smooth as done through a DSP (i.e. like in Clie), but I hope it is acceptable.
Probably just a tradeoff to keep the price low...

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 1:50:12 AM #
Plus the C5xx DSP on the OMAP1510 seemed to only be used in the voice recorder on the TT, and for that low pass filter which the latest TT sound patch essentially removed. But the ARM9 multiplier turns out to be plenty fast for FFT's and many types of digital filters.

Also the Zire 71 has no microphone or line input.

Zire 71: NO Wireless Connectivity!?
pdangel @ 4/23/2003 4:44:31 AM #
Review: Palm Zire 71
"Conclusion: At $299, the Zire 71 is stacked against Sony's CLIE PEG-SJ33 handheld. For the first time that we can recall, at a given price point Palm beats Sony in both feature set and design and integration. The Zire 71 is an excellent device. We're disappointed by the lack of Bluetooth poor stylus, and pointing stick Navigator, but the good camera, mouth-watering screen, and excellent software integration win us over. The Zire 71 is now the device to beat in the mid-range market.
-What's positive: Superb screen, good camera, good software integration
-What's negative: Plastic stylus, pointing-stick Navigator, no Bluetooth or high-powered IR
5 out of 6"
http://www.infosync.no/system/print/index.php?id=3460

Brighthand Reviews the Palm Zire 71: "The Palm Zire 71 is a remarkable mid-range handheld that combines style and functionality, while remaining true to Palm's "pocketable, easy-to-use, long battery life" philosophy. Its only shortcoming is its lack of integrated wireless, which we hope can be somewhat overcome in the near future with support for Secure Digital Bluetooth and Wi-Fi cards."
http://www.brighthand.com/article/Zire_71_review

Brighthand’s Preliminary Review of the Palm Tungsten C: "....the Tungsten C looks like a very impressive device. When I first heard hints Palm was putting together a model with built-in Wi-Fi and a 400 MHz processor, I expected it to cost at least $600. Palm really surprised me by pricing it at $500. That puts it $100 less than the Toshiba e750, which has a roughly similar feature set. This device could win Palm not only sales among power users but among large corporate clients as well."
http://www.brighthand.com/article/Tungsten_C_Preliminary_Review

For the business user, Palm has upped the ante with the fastest processor ever in a Palm OS handheld. The Tungsten C is backed by an Intel XScale processor running at 400 MHz, twice the speed of any Palm OS handheld to date, and offers 64 MB of RAM, four times that of any other shipping Palm OS handheld. (The Garmin iQue 3600 is expected to have 32 MB of RAM, but is not yet available.) It offers the same 5-Way Navigator and thumbboard of the Tungsten W, while keeping almost the exact same size and shape. Although it has no external antenna, the Tungsten C includes an integrated 802.11b "Wi-Fi" radio. In order to provide all-day usage, it also sports the same 1500 mAh battery of the Tungsten W. Although it does not include an MP3 player, it does include a voice recorder, DataViz Documents To Go, a proxy-less web browser, and VPN support."
http://www.infosyncworld.com/system/print.php?id=3459

Palms range of WiFi is about 40-50 feet here (compared to all the negative talk about Bluetooth range of 30 feet?????) and am curious about the battery life (the Toshiba e740 runs less then 2 hours).....


"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
TobyG @ 4/23/2003 7:21:37 AM #
"Plus the C5xx DSP on the OMAP1510 seemed to only be used in the voice recorder on the TT"

The DSP on the T|T is used for playback of streamed sounds (according to a TI engineer). This should cause some differential in background audio performance. Whether or not the 192K of cache on the 310 will offset that, I don't know, but I can't see it. If PalmSG does an update to the OS and implements it properly, it could be used for both decode and playback of MP3/OGG. Whether they'll do either remains to be seen.

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Radu @ 4/23/2003 12:34:06 PM #
Don't they both have 192k internal memory? At least, that's what it says on the TI's website:
"192-KB of shared internal SRAM - frame buffer"
The difference between OMAP310 and 1510 seems to be only in the DSP core...



RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
TobyG @ 4/23/2003 12:58:41 PM #
"Don't they both have 192k internal memory? At least, that's what it says on the TI's website:
"192-KB of shared internal SRAM - frame buffer"
The difference between OMAP310 and 1510 seems to be only in the DSP core..."

Yep, I must've missed it this morning because it's not broken out separately like the 310 spec is.

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
RX317 @ 4/23/2003 1:32:28 PM #
OS 5.0 was never meant to support anything beyond ARM v5 codes. The DSP in OMAP1510 is an utter waste of silicon. Z71 using 310 confirms this.
RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 2:31:11 PM #
>The DSP in OMAP1510 is an utter waste of silicon. Z71 using 310 confirms this.

The Z71 doesn't have a voice recorder, a feature which is a requirement of many TT purchasers.

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Gage @ 4/23/2003 11:12:07 PM #
I have personally tested MP3 playing on the Zire 71 and it sounds good. (tested without head phones) But I didn't test and see if it would play music in the back ground. I will try it to marrow when I go back to work.

I use PocketToons MP3 Player....

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Gage @ 4/24/2003 11:11:35 PM #
Sounds good all the way around! It will play in the background. But will crash if you set over amp. to +3db. But +6db will work(strange). Anyway. It crashes at other times (just some tweaks the programs will have to work on)... But for the most part it works very good!

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Thaddeus Cultt @ 4/25/2003 10:23:39 AM #
I received my Zire 71 as a gift (I actually received an Toshiba e335, but exchanged it for the Zire) and DSP or not, it really sounds great. I haven't had any problems running music in the background while using Wordsmith or iSilo, but that's all I've run it with. I really love this fun little palm.


TC

"...in the end the only one left smiling was the Jester, and his was only painted on..." - TC

RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
mj6798 @ 4/27/2003 5:45:58 PM #
"OS 5.0 was never meant to support anything beyond ARM v5 codes. The DSP in OMAP1510 is an utter waste of silicon. Z71 using 310 confirms this."

Because Palm's OS 5 release can't deal with a DSP chip (or do decent multitasking), the chip is a "waste of silicon"???

Operating systems are supposed to make hardware accessible to application software. The degree to which Palm OS fails to do that, that's a deficiency in Palm OS, not in the hardware.

In fact, this is a perennial problem with Palm OS: every megabyte of memory added, every screen pixel, every flash card, and every piece of audio hardware is a hard-won battle with that OS. Let's hope that OS 6 will be better than this because if it isn't, Palm is history (or at least should be).

Friigin Thumboard

jbeedham @ 4/23/2003 1:19:31 AM #
Why can't Palm offer a unit with virtual graffiti? I was really hoping they would offer two versions of the Tungsten C. One with thumboard and one with virtual graffiti.

I think if they are gonna go the thumboard route, they need to incorporate a virtual mouse pointer with roller ball. This way you won't need to grab the stylus.

-------------------------------------------------------
currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
Token User @ 4/23/2003 1:57:29 AM #
... and did anyone else notice that, just like the T|W, they have a / but no \. Maybe they'll have to send out a "patch" like Sony 8^)

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~
RE: Friigin Thumboard
ralvy @ 4/23/2003 2:46:41 AM #
On this keyboard you get the backslash with the Fn-Symbol combination.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
icarus @ 4/23/2003 7:56:02 AM #
I WANT VIRTUAL GRAFFITI !!!

Me too. Lately, they just kick out units with this thum(b) keyboard (or the Zire71 with regular Graffiti area.

Take the Tungsten T, replace the sliding mech with a virtual Graffiti (it would be nice to have even a better display, e.g. like Cliés) and off we go.

Don't need camera and other gimmicks. But....

...give us the real estate (screen) we deserve!!

and bluetooth for mobile connection. (I don't want to download huge attachements, but just get some plain eMails and eventually some small attachements. This will be perfectly satisfied by bluetooth.)
And I want the mobile to dial my contacts from the Palm without lining it up for IR!

PALM SG, are you listening???

presently using m105 - waiting for Garmin iQue3600 with Bluetooth

RE: Friigin Thumboard
frauen1 @ 4/23/2003 9:23:20 AM #
Does the Tungsten C/Graffiti 2 do the "write in the main screen area" trick that Jot does? I could live with that.

BTW, I've used the thumbboard, it's not bad, my only complaint is that the D-pad is a little small. Us fat thumbed will be at a slight disadvantage...

RE: Friigin Thumboard
zigzago @ 4/23/2003 9:36:56 AM #
Put me on the virtual graffiti waiting list too.

Don't need a camera, don't need WiFi, don't need
a thumbboard. But I'd like something smaller than
Sony's clamshell units with a large screen so I
don't have to scroll so much when reading long
documents. IMO, this is Palm's biggest weakness
compared to Pocket PC.

RE: Vitual Graffitti
Cheetah @ 4/23/2003 11:12:53 AM #
I believe if they put vitual graffitti on this unit (eliminating thumb board) that it would be as popular as the V/505/515 model.

At least that's what I'm holding out for!

RE: Friigin Thumboard
Doo @ 4/23/2003 11:58:41 AM #
I want V-Graffiti too. My 760 is getting long in the tooth but nothing seams to do anything it can't. The new stuff might do it faster but speed isn't that impotant. Sony or Palm, I couldn't care. Just let me read an ebook on a 320-480 screen.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
dustbunny44 @ 4/23/2003 1:38:16 PM #
Yes - add my voice to the screen real estate over thumb keyboard crowd.

The ideal form factor (this minute) would be that of the garmin ique 3600 - 320x480 and under 5.5 oz - but with selectable 802.11b/bluetooth (both radios onboard and user switches between one/both/none of them) instead of the GPS (though that is tasty too).

Major uses would be browser/internet/email, calendar syncing with whatever group calendar you use, and phone/contact interface via bluetooth. Camera, if you want one for occasional use, could be slipped into the SDIO slot or use the one on your phone instead.


Yes, give us Graffiti with the thumbboard.
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 1:41:42 PM #
But what is virtual Graffiti?

It's often mentioned, but I've seen no definition. (Maybe I have to get up earlier in the day.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
Purfekshunist @ 4/23/2003 2:08:30 PM #
I keep posting every time there's an opportunity to speak out for a PalmOS unit with virtual graffiti, in the hope that enough support will convince someone at Palm or Sony that it would be worthwhile to make one.

Half a clamshell Clie or an m515 with virtual graffiti, and I'm there. Preferably the latter, since I prefer SD over Memory Stick.

The bigger screen would be welcome for reading (ebooks and Avantgo) and viewing video. Kinoma Player/Producer is awesome, and supports HiRes+. Even my PPC friends are astonished by the picture clarity. I think if a PalmOS licensee is serious about making an entertainment/multimedia PDA, it has to have a HiRes+ screen and NO thumboard (it's a PDA, not a mini-laptop!). Personally, I don't need a built-in camera.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
a @ 4/23/2003 2:34:36 PM #
face it....virtual graffiti is cool, but keyboards are just plain faster if you want to type more than 2 charactors.

-------------------
I love my Treo 90
-------------------
RE: Friigin Thumboard
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 2:40:02 PM #
Virtual G is where instead of a static G area, it is an extension of the screen. The graffiti writing space is collapseable. The VG resolution is 320x480.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
DavisC @ 4/23/2003 2:42:38 PM #
Virtual Graffitti!!!!
I would switch faster than you could say "Thumboard".
I was wooed from Palm to PPC by the screens of those devices (I came back due to size and functionality of Palm). A perfect device would have VG, size of the M515, SD and that's it. No bells and whistles, don't need all that. I have a keyboard if I wanna type!
Please, VG!!!!

RE: Friigin Thumboard
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 3:08:04 PM #
> The VG resolution is 320x480.

Bah! I'm holding out for 480x640 virtual graffiti.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
killah fury @ 4/23/2003 3:09:02 PM #
i hate the friggin keyboards. i want virtual graffiti too. come on palm / sony!

listen to us, dammit!

RE: Friigin Thumboard
ZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 3:50:42 PM #
480X640 Virtual Graffiti? In my mind, one of the biggest failings of the (otherwise excellent) Handera 330 was its 240x320 screen. The screen had 1.5x the horiz. resolution of the standard lo-res screen, as opposed to Sony's, with 2x horiz. res. So, you could either run older apps smaller, or through an odd scaling routine ... AND YOU WANT TO RESURRECT *THAT*?!?

640x960 B) ...

RE: Friigin Thumboard
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 4:51:16 PM #
Any developer coding to a specific hi-res screen size, over a full year since Palm's hi-desnsity APIs were available, ought to have their right to use Palm licensed headers, tools, etc. revoked. Torture and other painful punishments ought to be considered as well.
RE: Friigin Thumboard
ajcross @ 4/23/2003 5:39:49 PM #
Why not the best of both worlds?

For Xmas, I expect to see Canesta LCD keyboard in a propped up Palm. Why would I want a dinky thumbboard?

And I can Jot or Virtual Graffiti on the 320x480 screen. I will say that I like the ability to write without looking at the screen that I do with Graffiti.

Andy

RE: Friigin Thumboard - My April 2003 Dream PDA ;-)
jho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 6:50:13 PM #
Tungsten T|Cv (v for virtual grafitti)

http://members.cox.net/jerrodh/TungstenCv.jpg


-JWH

RE: Friigin Thumboard
RSC @ 4/23/2003 6:52:04 PM #
I'm a big fan of virtual graffiti too -- there's nothing better for reading e-books than having smooth fonts on the extra large/long screen, which you get with 320x480 (so far only available in Sony Clie clamshell devices)
RE: Friigin Thumboard
nipaworni @ 4/23/2003 7:08:30 PM #
Although I want VG too, but I think it is not gonna happen with Wi-Fi device in business sense. Because I think the main market for Wi-Fi would be corporate not consumer. Thumb keyboard is faster and less learning curve.
RE: Friigin Thumboard
jho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 7:17:09 PM #
It will happen... as long as consumers keep insisting upon it (as is obviously happening in this thread).

-JWH
RE: Friigin Thumboard
RSC @ 4/23/2003 7:35:19 PM #
"It will happen... as long as consumers keep insisting upon it (as is obviously happening in this thread)."

I'm not so sure...the management at Palm may be opposed to virtual graffiti if they belive it violates their design/interface philosophies (the "Zen" of palm, if that still exists). I wouldn't put it past them to believe they know better than consumers what is best.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
Medic553 @ 4/23/2003 7:44:35 PM #
True, there is a smaller learnig curve with the thumboard, but those of us who power use a palm are pretty darn quick with grafitti. I'll never go thumboard. I am too fast with grafitti. I would not mind seeing v-grafitti and dual expansion (one for memory and the other for accessories).

RE: Friigin Thumboard
rsc1000 @ 4/23/2003 8:27:36 PM #
>>Any developer coding to a specific hi-res screen size, over a full year since Palm's hi-desnsity APIs were available, ought to have their right to use Palm licensed headers, tools, etc. revoked. Torture and other painful punishments ought to be considered as well.

Bull. Bull, Bull, Bull and Bull. Look idiots - anyone who is going to come on this site let the world know what a 'genius' they are by informing us about how OS 5 works had damned well better think about this before saying that OS 5 magically takes care of a screen scaling. A quick example to point out the stupidity of this - ongoing - line of reasoning:

I have an app with small icons/buttons lined up on the bottom of the screen. For old Palm OS, I have low-res bitmaps designed for 160x160 screen. For OS 5 hi-density API devices, I have double-density icons (the only densities currently supported as part of a bitmap family by any resource editors). Now, for either device, the same 160x160 screen co-ordinate system is used (OS 5 uses this for backward compatibilty). So, geniuses, what happens when i run this on, say, an OS 5 device that uses 1.5 x density? Well, if you go the route of allowing scaling of the double-density images down to 75% of their resolution (thats 1.5x versus 2x) - yr icons (especially if they are small and detailed) trun into crap. So what alternative do you have if you actually want things to look nice on a device with a 1.5 x, or 2.5 x or 3 x screen? You guessed it - MORE WORK. Case closed.

It's *SOFT* Graffiti!
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 9:03:40 PM #
A pox to the nit who coined this "Virtual" Graffiti nonsense. It's SOFT Graffiti, dammit. So sayeth the person who has been screaming for it the longest... me!

RE: Friigin Thumboard
LiveFaith @ 4/23/2003 11:43:47 PM #
Here it is ladies and gents. The VG question put to rest by this graphic. Which would anyone prefer the one on left or right? ... cheesy grafix editing notwithstanding. :-o

http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/71vg.jpg


RE: Friigin Thumboard
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:14:33 AM #
That *is* pretty cheesy. Makes a Palm PDA look like that flop-o-rama, the eBookman (hello, Franklin, goodbye Franklin!). But, of course, the *right* side is what we want! But in a case that is classy -- like the Toshiba GENIO 550g:

http://www.genio-e.com/pda/products/gd_index.htm

-- click on the button FLASH.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
LiveFaith @ 4/24/2003 1:02:33 AM #
That Toshiba looks OK but still wastes valuable frontal area. Seems like a no brainer to get the max outta the forma factor. Sony SJ22 would do it well with VG ... it's nearly as small as a TT and doesn't close. I have a sneaking suspicion Sony will give us VG in a non-clammy OS5 soon. For now we'll just have to admire my georgeous new Zire 71V!

http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/71vg.jpg

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Friigin Thumboard
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 7:32:01 AM #
I loathe Sony's squat designs. Not even Soft Graffiti on them would make me buy. I especially detest their damned made-for-elves styli!

RE: Friggin Thumboard
swinginjonny @ 4/24/2003 9:27:57 AM #
I HATE the thumboard!!!
I bought a Dell Axim, mostly out of curiosity (the price was so low) and I hate the OS BUT I LOVE the extra screen size! If the Tungsten C had Virtual Grafitti instead of the freakin made-for-women-and-children-with-tiny-fingers thumboard that somehow every manufacturer thinks people want (See Handspring and their freeway-speed drive into obscurity on the back of thumboard-only devices) I'd go buy it right now!
Okay, I feel better--it's nice to vent a bit.

I train on PDAs every day and I've used them all, Palm's keyboard implementation of the thumboard is far superior to Handsprings but it's still not as easy as good old graffiti.
Frankly, I'm a little scared. I bought a PPC on a whim and I'm not sure I can go back to Palm, no matter how much better it is--the extra screen is just too nice! Why, oh why, Palm, do you make us choose??? A Tungsten T with VG would be the perfect device for me and, I believe, many others. It has the multi-media abilities of the PPC but with the simplicity, size, and ubiquity of Palm OS. If research really shows that EVERYBODY (except me) can't live without a thumboard, I'll just shut up, but what about a compromise--the sliding thumboard with gaffiti underneath (virtual, I hope) a la Sharp Zaurus?
(I feel like an official part of PIC now, that was my first trip to the soapbox--but I feel really strongly that grafitti should live a good, long life.)

(Self-confessed Palm Geek)
RE: Friigin Thumboard
JKingGrim @ 4/24/2003 2:52:48 PM #
Sliding thumboard with VG underneath? ARE YOU MAD?

Make that sliding VG with thumboard underneath, that way I never have to open it. :D

RE: Friigin Thumboard
sford @ 4/24/2003 3:11:35 PM #
I gotta tell ya, from using my Clie NX60, I've found that having the option of using either soft graffiti or a thumb board *on the same device* is the key! I actually use both simultaneously quite often, thumboard for letters, SG for numbers and punctuation. It's quite fast...and kinda fun, too!

_____________________________________
Tired of working for someone else, with little or nothing to show for it?
www.thisistheone.net
RE: Friigin Thumboard
JKingGrim @ 4/24/2003 3:32:28 PM #
Hey, heres the PDA I'm waiting for. A bit small, but I couldn't find a good frontal picture.

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/2314074.jpg

RE: Friigin Thumboard
hotpaw4 @ 4/24/2003 4:16:54 PM #
The thumboard is lesson from Handspring. IIRC, their focus group studies showed that around half of the potential customers preferred the tiny keyboards, and around half preferred pen input. A company has to offer products of each kind if they don't want to disappoint around half their potential market. Palm just introduced one of each kind.
RE: Friigin Thumboard
ganoe @ 4/25/2003 8:50:56 AM #
> Bull. Bull, Bull, Bull and Bull. Look idiots -

Yes, look an idiot, someone you don't want writing your software for you. Oh the horrors if/when a 4, 3 or 1.5 density screen appears, you might actually have to add the bitmaps for those densities. Instead we'll get to listen to you whine, whine, whine, whine and whine because developers like you can't design their software with other resolutions in mind. Yes, let's hold back the Palm platform just for people like you.

RE: Friigin Thumboard
fleegle @ 4/25/2003 9:53:14 AM #
It's not that they can't design their software for other resolutions, it's that they're too lazy to do it the correct way.



RE: Friigin Thumboard
thraal @ 4/25/2003 3:43:32 PM #
I WANT VIRTUAL GRAFFITI TOO!

Palm, PLEASE liston to us!

RE: Friigin Thumboard
ajg23 @ 4/26/2003 1:03:29 PM #
I would buy the Tungsten-C now if there were virtual graffiti. I would probably buy it if there were just plain graffiti (I want to use MEST as well as hacks, etc, that use slidees in the graffiti area...)....

RE: Friigin Thumboard
Palminator @ 4/28/2003 11:17:51 AM #
Are you aware of the fact that you can use the entire display area for graffiti with the T/C? Preferences / Writing Area and turn on Write anywhere on-screen.


RE: Friigin Thumboard
mikecane @ 4/28/2003 8:13:23 PM #
Yeah -- and then have fun getting the fekkin thing to recognize a tap on a button (ie, OK) as a tap and not a prelude to further G2ing! It's a botch!!

RE: Friigin Thumboard
bleedingedge @ 4/29/2003 2:57:07 PM #
Well, looks like the new Chinese Legend Palm 168 has the exact design we are all hoping for. Simple frame like the Palm V or m5xx with VG.

When are Sony and Palm going to get a clue??? Those thumboards are so cheesy!!!

Anyone know how we might all combine our frustrations and pass this message on to these companies through the proper "feedback" channels?

Finally

I.M Anonymous @ 4/23/2003 1:23:03 AM #
I was a bit confused earlier today, when I saw a Zire 71 ad banner on PIC (with a bad link), but no announcement. I can't wait to hear the reviews, as I am seriously considering this as a replacement for my trusty Palm V.

RE: Finally
ozz @ 4/23/2003 1:37:14 AM #
I'm also anxious to read some reviews on the Zire 71 before I buy. On the surface, it looks like it will meet all my needs, and since I don't want a thumbboard, the T|C is out of the question. Does anyone remember what the "71" refers to?

RE: Finally
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:23:34 AM #
It's the Ultimate Answer. Oh, no, wait. That's "14," isn't it? (Did I get it right, Adams fans?)

RE: Finally
frauen1 @ 4/23/2003 9:17:59 AM #
42, not 14.

Yeesh! Doesn't anybody read their Hitchhiker's Guide anymore? ;)

RE: Finally
TobyG @ 4/23/2003 9:20:33 AM #
Mike: no, it's 42. And I think the Z71 is an homage to one of the Palmies' pickup. ;)

RE: Finally
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 1:45:19 PM #
Don't panic!

He's only off by 29 numbers (if you count them as entities, not just simple subtraction).

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: Finally
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 9:05:35 PM #
Damn! 42! That's what I get for typing numbers in the AM. I kept looking at it... but I convinced myself it was right after all. Well, at least I didn't lose my towel...

RE: Finally
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 2:53:58 PM #
Zire 71 was what the improbability engine spited out when asked what is a worst disaster than a Vogon Poetry

Goodbye Bluetooth?

ggeoffre @ 4/23/2003 1:40:04 AM #
Looks like the T|C does not support Bluetooth, neither does the T|W nor any of the Zires. I wonder if Bluetooth on the Palm will go the way of Web Clipping, which also seems to be an abandoned technology for future Palm releases.

Having WiFi built in is nice, but when you are on the road, being able to connect via a cell phone over bluetooth is much nicer IMO. Why should Tungsten owners have to choose between three different network alternatives...

T|T = Bluetooth, PalmOS 5.0, 16MB, slider, Texas Instruments OMAP 1510 (ARM) 144MHz

T|W = GSM/GPRS, PalmOS 4.1.1, 16MB, keyboard, Motorola Dragonball 33MHz

T|C = WiFi, PalmOS 5.2.1, 64MB, keyboard, Intel XScale 400MHz


RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 2:14:23 AM #
Won't the new models still support the Bluetooth SD card?
RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
kidA @ 4/23/2003 2:19:45 AM #
palm owners have to choose between the technologies because palm wants to keep their devices small. a device with built in BT, wi-fi, and GSM/GPRS would be freaking enormous not to mention cost a thousand bucks.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
re_ality @ 4/23/2003 5:51:25 AM #
Come on, building in Bluetooth is far from being expensive. How much is a Bluetooth chip, 10$? Less?
The technology is there and I really can't understand why they didn't integrate Bluetooth into this device.

-sn

--
Palmusergroup Mannheim/Germany - www.steffennork.de

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 5:59:15 AM #
All SDIO enabled devices already support the bluetooth card.

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 7:23:27 AM #
> All SDIO enabled devices already support the bluetooth card.

Last I checked, they said that the SD Bluetooth card did not work with the Tungsten T (not that you needed it). That leads me to wonder if it works on OS 5 devices. Of course it might have just been a conflict with the built-in Bluetooth.

I'm disappointed in this area too. Palm has been promising for years that their devices would all have integrated Bluetooth soon. The Tungsten T was one step forward, and since then they've taken about four steps back.

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
greentruck15 @ 4/23/2003 8:17:36 AM #
the bluetooth cards DO NOT work with the OS 5 devices - I have confirmation

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
ggeoffre @ 4/23/2003 9:33:24 AM #
Even if the Bluetooth cards did work with the new T|C, you can say the exact same thing about the upcoming WifFi cards and the T|T.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4343

I do not care so much about having all three included in one device, I could honestly live without GSM/GPRS _IF_ the device also supported Bluetooth.

I am more concerned with Bluetooth being treaded as some sort of 'luxury' option rather than a time honored standard. IrDA is standard with all palm devices, why not Bluetooth as well? From what I have read about Bluetooth, it must 'cost' about the same as IrDA in terns of $$, power consumption and internal real-estate (space). In this case, both the T|C and the new Zire 71 should both have Bluetooth. At one point Hi-Res color was also considered a 'luxury' option, but the Zire 71 now comes with HiRes color.

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
batmon @ 4/23/2003 2:59:59 PM #
In Japan, everyone is using the bluetooth services to connect to internet with Palm. I beleive the bluetooth SD card is from Fujitsu and the service charge is around $14 a month, card is around $65.

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
rsc1000 @ 4/23/2003 3:42:12 PM #
i think this is just a driver issue, no??

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 5:05:02 PM #
> i think this is just a driver issue, no??

Probably, but this is one of those issues that should've been resolved long before these devices came out.

RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
jbeedham @ 4/24/2003 10:50:49 PM #
It is just a driver issue. I know there are future SD cards coming with 802.11b and Bluettooth. There are even SD cards coming that are combiniation memory + bluetooth or 802.11b.

-------------------------------------------------------
currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue.
RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
neilkraft @ 4/30/2003 3:56:32 PM #
we've got to have bluetooth. i was told by palm that it is more than a driver issue. the card wont work

Tungsten C , could be better .

kenwc @ 4/23/2003 1:53:29 AM #
Tungsten C looks great to me. especially it's with 64 RAM and 400Mhz CPU. But No bluetooh supported ?? that means if I can't find a Wi-Fi port. I can only use IR-Cell Phone or modem to surf the web or receive mails. That's no good .

RE: Tungsten C , could be better .
mstur @ 4/23/2003 2:34:27 AM #
Well, you could still get a BlueTooth SDIO card...
I have used a m130 with BT card and now I have a T/T. I am suing BT to connect to my T39m mobile when travelling. The main problem is that GPRS roaming is still not working efficiently. What good is BT when I can only use a 9.6 kbps dial-in ??

Thus, I think Palm is quite on time if they now introduce a Wi-Fi Palm. Wireless access points are growing like weed everywhere, and Wi-Fi offers ten times the speed of GPRS !!

If only Palm would offer localized thumbboards for ther T/C...

RE: Tungsten C , could be better .
neilkraft @ 4/30/2003 3:58:05 PM #
the sdio bluetooth card wont work

ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?

kidA @ 4/23/2003 2:21:47 AM #
how about the zire 71 without the camera? that's all i ask for. it could be so thin and light!
i have a feeling we won't be seeing one though. it seems more and more with every product release that palm will not release any more devices without some sort of gimmick or wireless technology. the T|T had both--the slider's a gimmick and it has BT, T|W has GPRS, T|C has wi-fi, Zire 71 has a camera (yes the camera is basically a gimmick), and the original zire was, well, a gimmick itself.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
PDA Guy @ 4/23/2003 4:08:44 AM #
Just wait. Patience is a virtue.

RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
kidA @ 4/23/2003 5:22:07 AM #
i don't think waiting is an option in the tech world. if you wait, you'll be waiting forever. what makes you think palm will release a device like the Z71 w/o a camera anyway?

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
SonofWan @ 4/23/2003 6:49:55 AM #
This is true. I've got a V which I've been waiting to upgrade.. 3 years later and now I'm gonna get the TT simply because it has the features I need and with the new releases prices should go down, although they may not considering the pricing point for the 71, but I'm certain demand will go down so vendors might reduce.
But still what you gonna do, be patient and wait and then something new is on the horizon and it goes on for ever and ever and ever..

RE: agree
Cheetah @ 4/23/2003 11:15:17 AM #
If they just merged the C with the Zire it would be almost perfect. Graffitti instead of thumb board, no camera, smaller/lighter/thinner, lots of memory.

RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
elo @ 4/23/2003 12:39:18 PM #
Yeah, does *every damn thing I own* have to have a camera?!



RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
orev @ 4/23/2003 12:55:42 PM #
"Yeah, does *every damn thing I own* have to have a camera?!"

Of course it does. How else will it see you to hunt you down once Skynet becomes sentient and decides to kill all humanity?

RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
jbeedham @ 4/24/2003 10:53:09 PM #
Looks like my wait will be up when the Garmin iQue comes out. It has everything I want except the GPS. Garmin is a GPS company so they won't sell anything without GPS. However, I will still get it since I think the GPS will be fun to play with. It appears to be obvious Sony or Palm are not delivering what us the consumer really want.

-------------------------------------------------------
currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue.
RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 11:04:35 PM #
I'm beginning to think that Palm's attempt to let each licensee carve out a niche for themselves is backfiring. So far there are few overlapping products -- putting aside the mid-range -- and *no* one has produced the damned obvious that has been clamored for here since the *first* NX was unveiled: a *non*-clamshelled 320x480 unit w/Soft Graffiti! OK, at this late date, it'd also have to have BT and WiFi in it too. Hey, MICHAEL MACE!!! Why don't you tattoo some of these specs on the forehead of Eric the Red so he sees them every time he looks in the mirror in the morning?!!?

idiots still

io333 @ 4/23/2003 2:44:39 AM #
In case no one noticed, it has MONO sound output. No thanks.

Next!

RE: idiots still
Longkesh @ 4/23/2003 3:02:32 AM #
No. it says MONO speaker!

But what about keyboard backlight?

RE: idiots still
asiayeah @ 4/23/2003 3:10:46 AM #
The mono sound output is only when via the built-in speaker. If you use a headset, you would be able to enjoy full stereo music on it.

Tony

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: idiots still
io333 @ 4/23/2003 3:29:47 AM #
No.


The output jack is also MONO.


RE: idiots still
asiayeah @ 4/23/2003 3:33:12 AM #
NO.

The output jack is STEREO.

Tony

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: idiots still
asiayeah @ 4/23/2003 3:33:53 AM #
Read this,

1 RealOne™ Mobile Player for Palm included. Requires expansion card, sold separately. Headphones are required for stereo sound, not included.

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: idiots still
Shogmaster @ 4/23/2003 3:51:38 AM #
Actually, it's mono. Confirmed by many who have T|C.

If you go to Palm's site, Zire 71's specs page SPECIFY the hedphone jack as stereo, while the T|C's specs page just says 2.5mm headphone jack.

RE: idiots still
asiayeah @ 4/23/2003 4:52:28 AM #
I see. Thanks.

I was talking about that the Zire 71's audio jack is stereo.

Tony


--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

confusion of 2 new products
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 5:02:51 AM #
The Zire 71 has a stereo headphone jack, but no microphone or audio input.

The Tungsten C audio jack only has mono sound output, but also includes a microphone input on that jack.

RE: idiots still
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:25:05 AM #
Of course the TC has mono output. If Palm had done *everything* right, they wouldn't be Palm, would they? Palm: "We always ALMOST get it right." Geez...

RE: idiots still
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 9:18:34 AM #
Can a reviewer that actually has a Tungsten C confirm or deny this?

RE: idiots still
jlc @ 4/23/2003 10:40:56 AM #
Yes, it is mono. Not only that, but the jack is a 4 connecter NOKIA style plug - which means stereo to mono adapters will not work. OTOH, I can get AP/PT to play songs through my NOKIA headset.

No doubt a mono-stereo plug can be made, it's just not something you can get off the shelf at Radio Shack (at least none of the plugs I tried on my C worked)

RE: idiots still
sgingras @ 4/23/2003 10:43:45 AM #
How would you like a Palm with the following specs:

- small form factor
- elegant case
- ARM processor
- virtual grafitti
- audio record capability
- stereo output
- bluetooth
- 272 Mb of RAM
- bundled camera for the SD card slot that you can leave at home if you don't need it
- bundled (near) full size keyboard

Well, just buy a Tungsten T add a 256 MB SD card and add the following shareware:

- NewPen
- OKey
- McPhling

The camera deal is ongoing. Staples has also been throwing in the Palm ultra slim folding keyboard.

Just a thought. [:)]

cheers,
Steve

RE: idiots still
kidA @ 4/23/2003 11:24:41 AM #
staples stopped throwing in the UT keyboard on saturday. plus you don't really get VG that way. most folks don't want VG because they like the square screen and they want to write right on it. most, if not all, of us want VG is in _more_ screen real estate--ie 320x480.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: idiots still
Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:38:23 AM #
Since the Zire 71 has such weak audio (through the headphone Jack) it doesn't really matter. Why argue over breadcrumbs?

RE: idiots still
jlc @ 4/23/2003 12:25:35 PM #
No backlit keyboard - I really wish it had one.

RE: idiots still
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 2:53:39 PM #
Why would a device have 272mb Ram?
1)Ram does not come in anonymous sizes. It is all multiples of 2.
2)POS only supports 128mb RAM.

RE: idiots still
ZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 8:56:28 PM #
Uhh ... 272 IS a multiple of 2 - I get what you meant though ...

To be precise, memory in most PDAs {and PCs too} (96 mb PPC notwithstanding) is in the quantity of an exponent of 2 - an 8mb PDA has 2^3 mb of ram, and a 128mb has 2^7 mb ...

Generally, quantities that show up earlier in the exponent tree are added to a base exponential value in the devices with odd amounts of memory - in the 96mb PPC above, the value of 2^5, 32, is added to the value of 2^6, 64, to get the value 96.

VG in a nonclamshell would be real nice - but don't expect an m5xx size unit to have VG - the screen's too big to have a usable palm in that size ...

And no Handera/PPC style 3:4 screens! To maintain compatiblilty with preexisting Palm apps, the VG screens must have a pixel ratio of 2:3, like the Sony NR/X/Z units!

RE: idiots still
Berliner @ 4/24/2003 12:32:29 PM #
I think what was meant is 256 + 16 (built in) = 272.

-B.

...Wherever you go, there you are...

71 audio
madmaxmedia @ 4/24/2003 1:52:04 PM #
Brighthand said the 71 audio was outstanding through the headphones. Wish they compared to Sony CLIE, which has very good audio.

RE: idiots still
rsc1000 @ 4/24/2003 2:51:30 PM #
Why does Palm do this? So, because the T|C is a business device, they skimped on the extra $1 worth in manufacturing costs to make the T|C stereo? huh? I mean, the whole tech world has been waiting for 2 yrs for Palm to get their sh!t together and compete with PPC - and they finally do it, except they go and screw up the one feature that EVERY PPC (even the lowly DELL Axim) has. Why? Just give us the damned stereo output, drop the stupid keyboard and give us the VG already (ok - some like the keyboard - so give us 2 versions). I hate to whine about this - but its getting really stupid and really conspicuous that not one Palm OS device manufacturer can give us VG (like every PPC) without forcing us to buy a folding Sony brick (nice bricks though they are). stupid - we should have had this a year ago. From the amount of complaining about this on PIC and other sites - its seems obvious that this would win some much needed market share from/back from PPC.

RE: idiots still
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:23:01 PM #
They saved $1 in costs to LOSE just how many millions of dollars in sales? Dumbdumbdumb...

Eric the Red: "Stereo?! Leave it out! *I* am a biznissman and *I* don't listen to stereo!"

Michael Mace: "But...but...but..."

Eric the Red: "And what about my butt, butt, butt?"

RE: idiots still
Actuarian @ 4/25/2003 9:38:21 AM #
I don't think they did this to save the cost of a stereo jack. They were going for the corporate market and I think their research showed most corporations do not want their equipment to be used to play MPS'3.

EE needed
mikecane @ 4/25/2003 8:40:18 PM #
I was still thinking about this today. I'm not an EE. Here's the question: Is there any *inherent* conflict with having a stereo-out port on the TungC *as well as* using that same port for VoIP functions? If there is, then case closed: Palm wants VoIP more than MP3 in this thing.

RE: idiots still
BlueAnon @ 4/26/2003 5:03:54 PM #
It's 'Zen' thing, you wouldn't understand.

other companies who doens't have Zen also apparently violate this law of nature and dare adding built in mic, speaker and stereo plug even.

RE: idiots still
mikecane @ 4/27/2003 2:28:38 PM #
The ever-illiterate BlueAnon pops in to add his $.02. Oh, in his case, that's 2$.0

RE: idiots still
BlueAnon @ 4/27/2003 3:13:06 PM #
awee.. I am hurtz... what should I do now...*sniff..
RE: idiots still
mikecane @ 4/27/2003 3:30:36 PM #
Well, it's obvious to all that your head is just not good. Amputate!

Seen it in Santa Barbara, CA...

eigenwave @ 4/23/2003 3:01:26 AM #
I was perusing the local Staples store when I saw the Zire 71 on display. Nice unit! I had an inkling that it had a camera, but I didn't know how to reveal it. Clever hiding place.

Bluetooth???

xulofex0 @ 4/23/2003 3:07:28 AM #
.... I'm just searching for the bluetooth connection of the tungsten c.... and still did'nt found it. Anyone else?

RE: Bluetooth???
kidA @ 4/23/2003 3:15:20 AM #
NO! for the last time the T|C does not have bluetooth! it has wi-fi. if it had Bluetooth, rest assured it would say so in the specs.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: Bluetooth???
neilkraft @ 4/30/2003 3:53:49 PM #
yes but why cant you add an sd card. i see this as a major drawback

Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?

asiayeah @ 4/23/2003 3:43:39 AM #
Now the Zire 71 is using Palm OS 5.2.1

When will Palm released an OS upgrade to the Tungsten T? The Palm OS 5.0 on the Tungsten T is very buggy.

And will Palm release a Tungsten T version with 64MB internal RAM?

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
RoelvdV @ 4/23/2003 7:36:34 AM #
If Palm's comes with an OS 5.2.1 upgrade for the Tungsten T you can start adding extra RAM, up to 128 MB.

Greetings, Roel.

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
Morph @ 4/23/2003 10:38:50 AM #
I have to agree with asiayeah. I too, tire of waiting for the OS 5.2.1 upgrade for the T|T. Our current OS is buggy, I wouldn't mind JOT, and I'm looking forward to that WebBrowser2.

Come on Palm! You've got it on more then a couple PDAs, let us have the upgrade. PLEASE!!

************************************************

For what shall it profit a man if he were to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul.

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
kidA @ 4/23/2003 11:27:17 AM #
maybe it won't fit in the 4MB T|T ROM. but if 5.2 does come out for the T|T, it will probably be in the next month or two. the first devices running 5.2, and i don't think palm has ever released OS upgrades for existing devices before or even at the same time as the first devices running said OS.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
jjsoh @ 4/23/2003 12:00:15 PM #
: maybe it won't fit in the 4MB T|T ROM.

Even though the T|T was advertised as having only 4MB in ROM, it's really 8MB. Here was a discussion about it not too long after T|T's launch:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4490&curpage=9

You might want to scroll down (or run a search on the page) for kleung21's post on Palm's official response to his question about how much ROM is actually in the T|T.

Also, I just checked my T|T with FileZ, and it confirms that I have 8257536 bytes of ROM.

Jim

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
bringer @ 4/23/2003 1:28:25 PM #
I don't find the OS buggy at all. Sure, some apps crash but about the same amount as my M505 with OS4. I don't want Graffiti 2 but now that I'm using TealScript, I'll be glad to load OS 5.2 and not have to worry about Palm's diluted version of Jot (I tried a demo of this and could never get used to it).

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 3:11:26 PM #
> I don't find the OS buggy at all.

Try connecting to an access point with Bluetooth, and then say that.

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
nakolo @ 4/24/2003 1:03:54 PM #
Had hoped Tony Rudenko (http://www.palmpilotupgrade.com) might be in the loop for possible OS/memory upgrades.

Q: "Now that Palm has come out with the 64mb T|C, do you have any plans/timeframe that you will be offering a similar upgrade for us T|T owners? Thanks in advance!"
A: "Hello, Thanks for your interest in our services! We do not upgrade this model. Regards, Tony"

Time will tell.

----------------
TT First Adopter, Purchased 10/29/2002
Palm III, IIIc, T|T

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
krosfyah @ 4/24/2003 1:57:37 PM #
"Try connecting to an access point with Bluetooth, and then say that."

I have the Belkin AP and it connect perfect everytime. There's several threads about this in the Bluetooth discussion forums.

Now trying to get network access through a PC w/ a dongle doesn't work.

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
virbean @ 4/24/2003 3:27:20 PM #
Network access through a USB bluetooth dongle works fine with my iBook and iMac. With the new upgrade to Versamail 2.5, I have d/l'ed 500 messages into my T/T and have surfed the internet using Blazer.
RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
ganoe @ 4/25/2003 8:46:11 AM #
> Network access through a USB bluetooth dongle works fine

I assume you're probably using PPP over a serial profile and not the network access profile.

Sure the Belkin AP works, but if you read the posts it also apparently has crappy range. Yes, some APs work with it, but I've seen posts about others that don't.

RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
bringer @ 4/28/2003 1:16:26 PM #
>Try connecting to an access point with Bluetooth, and then say that.

I am using a Belkin USB dongle on Win98 on my home PC using MochaPPP and except for the occasional crash from MochaPPP, I haven't had any problems. I do wish the range of the dongle was a little bit more (it's a struggle to get access in my bedroom upstairs).



So How Long Before...

TypeMRT @ 4/23/2003 3:58:10 AM #
we start to hear reports of the Tungsten C as the latest wireless hacking tool. Someone's got to be working on a "PalmStumbler" app for wardriving/walking ;-)

RE: So How Long Before...
PDA Guy @ 4/23/2003 4:10:13 AM #
Oooh, can't wait. That will be very handy. :)


RE: So How Long Before...
re_ality @ 4/23/2003 5:59:32 AM #
... if not the long searched for 'killer application' ;-)

I only wonder about the palm's radio range.

--
Palmusergroup Mannheim/Germany - www.pug-mannheim.de.vu

RE: So How Long Before...
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 6:02:17 PM #
Shouldn't be tough if Palm releases DEV specs on the radio. Course you've long been able to do that with LAN Status on a HandEra 330. And the Symbol CF 802.11b card's range is wonderful...

What I think would be a more useful use of the horsepower is a porting of SAMBA/SMBMount type apps for browsing and mounting to Windows networks. So far we've only got command line tools SMB.

RE: So How Long Before...
atrizzah @ 4/26/2003 11:07:17 AM #
I'd love to have some UNIX networking utilities on a Palm. Hook me up with telnet and SSH and I'm good to go. And maybe an X client too...*drooling*

Peace Out
Alan

Network Questions?

TypeMRT @ 4/23/2003 4:09:33 AM #
Since there's no Bluetooth in the T|C, can a wifi-enabled desktop (PC or Mac) establish a computer-T|C network (w/o a router) for the purpose of Hotsyncing, file-sharing? How about T|C-T|C for file-sharing, chatting, etc.?

RE: Network Questions?
kev @ 4/23/2003 5:30:34 AM #
i'd say you'll always need a router. you could always run a router sw on your desktop (ha!).

RE: Network Questions?
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 9:10:26 AM #
You shouldn't need a router to connect the two devices, but it'd probably depend on what WiFi configurations the Tungsten C supports.
RE: Network Questions?
frauen1 @ 4/23/2003 9:20:28 AM #
Actually, I played with a Tungsten C last December - we were in a building in Milpitas and were able to get a good signal anywhere inside (it was a very large building, with several walls, and we were talking to a Cisco Aironet 340 card on my Thinkpad - the range was quite good).

RE: Network Questions?
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 11:29:05 AM #
Clarifying what I said, you never need a router except in some cases where you're accessing the Internet (or some other WAN). Worst case, you would need an access point (to exchange files, sync, etc.) if for some reason the Tungsten C couldn't do point to point 802.11b.

camera pics

coolcactus @ 4/23/2003 5:59:47 AM #
Could someone plwase post a picture taken with the internal camera of the Zire 71? Just to get an idea of the quality of the images...
RE: camera pics
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 6:05:39 AM #
Browse the forums for cryin out loud!

RE: camera pics
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:00:04 AM #
Surprisingly, the camera of the Z 71 seems to surpass that of the highest-end PPC of the moment: the Toshiba GENIO 550 C!

See this review:

http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/av/20030410/104368/

and larger views of sample pictures taken:

http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/av/20030410/104368/06b.jpg

and

http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/av/20030410/104368/07.shtml

-- all together now: EEEEEWWWWW!

RE: camera pics
SonofWan @ 4/23/2003 7:12:10 AM #
What the...! Looks like the photographer was being catapulted at the tree. Very blurry but nice colour.

RE: camera pics
SonofWan @ 4/23/2003 7:14:57 AM #
Oh looked at the other pics. Do you think they were taken when the photographer was drunk? Never seen flowers look like they are competing in the Olympics.

RE: camera pics
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:19:45 AM #
Maybe the flowers and tree were ATTACKING him?! I don't think the camera has a zoom, so I can't otherwise account for that strange blurring effect. (Man, Japanese flora are hostile!) Unless they got their optics from Kodak? (Laughing bitterly over Kodak's past pathetic camera attachments for other PalmOS PDAs...)

RE: camera pics
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:45:54 AM #
Here's a Z 71 pic (not the best I've seen, however!):

http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/show.php?id=3460&page=3

RE: camera pics
zigzago @ 4/23/2003 9:49:37 AM #
Were you guys expecting to buy a Zire 71 and then go on assignment for National Geographic?

RE: camera pics
SonofWan @ 4/23/2003 11:09:32 AM #
No but I did expect to get pictures which looked like they were taken when sober. You'd have to put a disclaimer on any pics you tooka nd passed round "I was not drunk when I took this shot. I swear"

Quality is one thing but having such bad focus is another.

RE: camera pics
Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:42:00 AM #
"Were you guys expecting to buy a Zire 71 and then go on assignment for National Geographic?"

No, but I was expecting to be at least good enough for Peter Arnett to use at his new job, The Daily Rag. 8^)


Quicktime?!!?

mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:02:59 AM #
Hey, what's this business about QUICKTIME being required to view video?! That's what the footnote of the huge Z 71 poster at a local Staples states ("free download available" -- I hope faster than the RealPlayer download -- bitter laughter!!)! What's up with that? Did Apple make "Quicktime for PalmOS" or is QT being used as the front-end to some sort of middleware that will convert (God help us!) QT files into a PalmOS-friendly format? And with soooo many Palm owners using PCs, isn't QT sorta, ah, unwise? (I don't know about the rest of you, but QT and WMP on the same PC fight like cats and dogs!!)

RE: Quicktime?!!?
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:04:31 AM #
Quicktime is used to produce movies using Kinoma Producer (that is if you're familiar with it). If not, then shut up. ;)

My two cents worth!

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!

RE: Quicktime?!!?
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:13:03 AM #
I've never used KP, so that's why I was wondering about QT. So that's the entire frigging mystery?!

RE: Quicktime?!!?
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:22:48 AM #
Yep thats basically "it". Coz you need to install Quicktime before you could use the Kinoma Producer.

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: Quicktime?!!?
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:24:26 AM #
Thanks for that info. (I call you a troll down below, BTW.)

RE: Quicktime?!!?
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:27:49 AM #
Hey! I'm not like that at all. I just got sick of all your whinnings, thats all. Peace.

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: Quicktime?!!?
Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:45:10 AM #
IMO, video on PalmOS is still more novelty than mature technology. For digital media, PPC still comes out ahead, at least in that area. Then again...let's see PPC vendors try to market a PDA with built-in cam for under $299!

RE: Quicktime?!!?
Altema @ 4/23/2003 12:41:14 PM #
You only need Quicktime for some of the video codecs to work properly in the Kinoma Publisher. Without it loaded, you can only do a few of the formats in the conversion. Probably a license issue.

As far as video being a novelty, not if you look at actual video performance. From the perspective of someone with both PPC and Palm platforms, my PPC has good audio but struggles with the video. They report the 1910 as being able to run video at 19FPS. A Palm M515 can do anywere from 29 to 52 frames per second depending on the bitrate of the video, and that's on the old 33Mhz Dragonball. The T|T can exceed *200* FPS, and I don't see that being any worse on the Z71 or especially the T|C.

RE: Quicktime?!!?
RX317 @ 4/23/2003 1:28:39 PM #
>>IMO, video on PalmOS is still more novelty than mature technology. For digital media, PPC still comes out ahead, at least in that area. Then again...let's see PPC vendors try to market a PDA with built-in cam for under $299!
----------

it's never going to happen in the US. PPC camera accessory has been a very slow sell for PDA.

even the one with flash and able to record movie isn't a big seller for PPC. I think the Japanese genioC is a slow seller too.

RE: Quicktime?!!?
Nebrie @ 4/23/2003 2:29:21 PM #
Quicktime is not a codec! It is a framework, a very powerful framework. KP uses Quicktime for this reason. Windows Media and Real Player are not even close. Duplicating what Quicktime does would be a huge waste of time.

RE: Quicktime?!!?
MacTheMan @ 4/23/2003 4:36:39 PM #
In any case: the idea of having to use a producer software instead of using the native, standard file formats is pretty dreadful.
If you have tried it, then you'll find out that
a) it takes forever. and
b) really bad quality (at least for my taste and compared to Clie's or PPC)
Palm wants to catch to PPC/Clie, but they seem to drop the ball left and right!

RE: Quicktime?!!?
Altema @ 4/23/2003 7:06:51 PM #
Yes you can consider it a framework, I was referring to the fact that there are certain codecs that do not work in the Kinoma Producer without Quicktime loaded. Thanks for the clarification though.

The conversion process is not that bad... I've converted a few gigs of video. It takes forever with some other video solutions, but Kinoma seems to be amonger the faster in the conversion process. Fortunately, you can drag all your videos to the window for batch processing.

I get opposite results in regards to quality. Not only is playback smoother, but still frames are sharper with more detail. Depends on how the conversion is setup... the defaults are pretty laid back to get the most of space.

RE: Quicktime?!!?
Timothy Rapson @ 4/23/2003 9:53:02 PM #
QuickTime is probably on your PC. Apple makes versions for PC available as readily as for Apple OS models. Palm is almost certainly just using it as the desktop client.

RE: Quicktime?!!?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:18:35 AM #
My sub-point above has been lost: On every PC I've used that has both WMP and QT installed, they fight to the death (apparently mine, not theirs!)! How can they peacefully coexist?!

RE: Quicktime?!!?
mrhockey @ 4/29/2003 3:13:39 AM #
Mike: Take a series of deep breaths, then unistall quicktime. Download a new copy from apple, do the custom installation, and do not allow quicktime to be the default for anything other than MOV files or other non-Windows file types. Then quicktime will learn its place. ****y quicktime software.

-mrhockey

Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove. -- Ashleigh Brilliant


RE: Quicktime?!!?
mrhockey @ 4/29/2003 3:19:33 AM #
wow, apparently i should have typed arrogant quicktime software. oh well.

-mrhockey

Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove. -- Ashleigh Brilliant


RE: Quicktime?!!?
mikecane @ 5/4/2003 3:20:09 PM #
Did you type s-h-i-*-*-y?

I don't know that it's QT being arrogant -- where the eff does WMP get off being able to play .MOV files?! G-damn metastatic Microsoft software!

So, Pepper

mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:06:43 AM #
...would you like some salt to go with that crow you're going to eat for originally stating that the Z 71 leaked info was FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! The rest of you doubters, line up too: there's plenty of dead bird to go around. Yum, yum!

Thank you, Palm Bomb Dropper!

RE: So, Pepper
Hustleman @ 4/23/2003 7:24:20 AM #
My thoughts exactly, I told peeps that the T|C would be 64mb and everyone said 'I doubt it'...lmao..I TOLD YOU SO!!...lol.:o)

RE: So, Pepper
Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:54:52 AM #
I still think it's a fake. This is all just some elaborate hoax. The Zire 71 sitting in my hand is an illusion...nothing more. Wait! Did you hear something?

...or is it Memorex?!
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 1:58:22 PM #
That's the danger of shooting one's mouth off in absolutes.

And there is always somebody who say's "That's obviously Photoshopped!" or "...it looks fake!" every time a pre-release picture surfaces. Makes 'em feel like an expert.

But of one has a taste for gamey fowl, then WTF.


______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: So, Pepper
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:20:13 AM #
Hmmm... NO Pepper!

How about a Case?

GearHead @ 4/23/2003 7:14:03 AM #
Yes I agree Palm did it again. But I think having a case for these units is going to be a major problem. Let me put it this way, I purchased my Tungsten T, on the third day, I dropped and sctrached all over, Thank GOD good folks at Circuit City were kind enough to replace it. Well how about a case? I think Plam should think about the CASE FACTOR along with design of the unit.

Also does anyone know when is the new Wireless SD card is coming? Because I still think Tungsten T is the way to go. Thank you and Good Luck All.
GOD BLESS PALM!

Free 802.11 No More Wires!!!

RE: How about a Case?
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 3:06:54 PM #
It has one included.

RE: How about a Case?
rsc1000 @ 4/24/2003 5:54:01 PM #
>>Also does anyone know when is the new Wireless SD card is coming?

SD WiFi cards were supposed to hit retail in march - but have since been posponed for a few months - i think i read they will be released later this summer.



Palm Zure 71 in PC World., Telford, UK

acquiessense @ 4/23/2003 7:19:26 AM #
Saw this unit in PC World this morning and nearly fell over.

I hadn't read a thing about it - neither did the store asssitant - until i pulled out my M125 and read the specs from the PIC avantgo channel:)

Cost UKP249
cost of T|T UKP269 with free SD camera attachment !!!



RE: Palm Zure 71 in PC World., Telford, UK
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:22:29 AM #
Yeah, free SD camera that you will have to REMOVE to use your SD card...

RE: Palm Zure 71 in PC World., Telford, UK
SonofWan @ 4/23/2003 11:13:32 AM #
Man that is pretty good for the base TT.
Widgit are doing a good deal too, and this was before the new releases. Hope they might reduce them further.
TT with 32mb SD for around Ł260. BTW mentioned widget a few times on this forum so just want to say I'm not associated, just never heard of them and would like to know if they are good or no, so anybody with experience, let me know.

RE: Palm Zure 71 in PC World., Telford, UK
RX317 @ 4/23/2003 1:35:59 PM #
Yeah Palm has to cut price deep in Europe they are loosing chunks of marketshare.
RE: Palm Zure 71 in PC World., Telford, UK
jbeedham @ 4/24/2003 11:16:39 PM #
260 pounds = $416. That seems a little high. The local best buy has them for $349. I feel sorry for you british having to pay all that VAT too. Maybe it is time to mail order?

-------------------------------------------------------
currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue.

WOW

Jonmills88 @ 4/23/2003 7:20:26 AM #
Its interesting that some of you still managed to find things to complain about with these new releases but this is the first time in like 5 years when Palm has released products better than their competitors.

The Tungsten C shattered the 16 MB limit and the processor speed is way above what the old Palm would go. I am actually amazed.

The Zire is also in class of its own and offers a lot of features for just 299.

I wonder how Sony feels to have been outdone by palm for the first time. However I would imagine we aren't too far off from their new products.

I of course bought a Tungsten T which I am really happy with. The new C makes me a little jealious but I will be happy once again when my WIFI SD card is finally here.

But its really nice to see this company headed in the right direction, it took a while and an idoit of a CEO but big things are instore for Palm, finally it is living up to its potential.

RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:27:10 AM #
Palm has NOT lived up to its potential and will continue NOT to do so until they release a frigging 320x480-screened unit with Soft Graffiti! (And when they do that, I want TealScript as a plug-in so I can dump that ^%$# Jot-based G2!)

RE: WOW
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:11:43 AM #
It's like forcing Palm to head its way to the direction of the PocketPC. Yuck! You suck!

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:14:14 AM #
Suck this.

Square screens are for squares.

RE: WOW
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:21:01 AM #
And rectangles are for... ***s?

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:22:06 AM #
Rectangles are for the righteous. Scram, troll.

RE: WOW
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:26:28 AM #
Hey stop whinning. You've posted a lot cries already.

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:28:39 AM #
Would one of your other usernames here happen to be, er, BlueAnon?

RE: WOW
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:32:14 AM #
Nope. Sorry. I happen to be one of your fan when you wrote the last fall prediction. But had degraded since I read your whinnings about Palm's new products just now. I just got disgusted and try to speak my thoughts out. Hope you could get my message in a clearer way. Whats the whinning all about?

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:36:12 AM #
What's the misspellings all about?

And I've just searched through the 7 pages of postings from the 2003 Predictions article and your current handle is nowhere to be found. "Whinne" about that.

RE: WOW
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:37:44 AM #
If you don't want people to react on your writings/thoughts, then say it in a nice way. ;-)

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
keep it up, you two
nrosser @ 4/23/2003 11:19:53 AM #
I'm getting a laugh out of this - keep going, you guys..more more more

RE: WOW
Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:58:49 AM #
Please, think of the children. Name calling makes baby Jesus cry. Well...I'm off to kill Dolphins. Wish me luck!

RE: WOW
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 2:04:52 PM #
Its interesting that some of you still managed to find things to complain about...

Yes, that really cracks me up, especially since some of the whining is so constructive.

But it doesn't matter, as many of the "experts" say Palm is doomed, anyway.

I'm going to grab a T|T for posterty.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 9:12:43 PM #
Foo: You crack me up! Before you went hunting, did you make sure to ask, "Which dolphin would Jesus kill?"

RE: WOW
RhinoSteve @ 4/24/2003 8:07:57 AM #
Palm dying is the high tech urban legend of the last five years.

The better a Palm product release is, the more people bitch here. With that, Palm hit one home run (Zire 71) and another out of the park (Tungsten-C) to me.

When you start to pull a Palm economy salary, I'll start to respect your opinions.
RE: WOW
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 8:19:39 AM #
Who were you replying to? And a $500 PDA with *mono* sound output is a "home run"? Please don't coach Little League...

WiFi roaming?!

mikecane @ 4/23/2003 7:32:00 AM #
What I'd like to know is if the WiFi programs on this TC will make roaming from one network to another a simple process (if not automatic!). The Toshi e740 is a bugger to (try to) roam with.

RE: WiFi roaming?!
mikecane @ 4/27/2003 2:31:00 PM #
I'll answer this myself, having now tried *three* store demo model TungCs. The answer is: Yes! It is Typically Palm (my TM!): Easy!

So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?

MacTheMan @ 4/23/2003 8:06:51 AM #
If I see it correctly then Palm's assumptions is, that there are two types of Palm users:
- "Business Users" who are all too stupid to use Graffiti, and therefore need a keyboard, and
- "Home User" which is a better version of the house-wife, and those use don't need connectivity, multi-media etc.

Am I the only one, who thinks that this is so wrong?
None of those keyboards work for me because my fingers are too big, and anyhow I need:
- everything that is in the T|C (incl. WiFi, High Memory, Fast Processor), plus
- built-in Bluetooth (or a second SD card slot)
- AND THE T|T FORM FACTOR!!!!

I think that Palm needs to rethink what exactly the needs of their target audience are, before releasing additional products.
And - just a hint - always produce better PDA's then you think they would need.

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
MV-Jon @ 4/23/2003 8:59:03 AM #
I have to agree with you. I would have liked to see a hybrid device combining many of these features. I am also a big fan of the T|T's form factor. It fits nicely in a shirt pocket and the metal case is extremely sturdy.

Perhaps Palm did not want to make this uber-device because it would be so good most of us would have no reason to upgrade for many years?



Jon Niola
President/CEO
Media Vortex, Inc.

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
strannik @ 4/23/2003 9:37:20 AM #
ditto to that... but i'd also like the keyboard while keeping the form factor... Zaurus did it

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
skennedy1217 @ 4/23/2003 11:15:55 AM #
I can't agree more. I consider myself a power user, which means I want the business functionality of the Tungsten and also the multimedia capability of the Zire 71. I suppose with the T|C I can live w/o the BT and the camera (both can be added via SDIO). However, the mono output on the jack is a huge mistake. I listen to MP3's on my daily commute. I would also like to see BT become standard (and IR phased out).

_____________________
m100 ==> m500 ==> T|T
RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
kidA @ 4/23/2003 11:40:38 AM #
i think palm putting keeyboards on their devices is mostly a reaction to the success of the RIM Blackberry devices as business machines.
and people who say their fingers are too big for thumboards simply haven't tried--unless maybe you're like Yao Ming or something, then you might have a case. i have big hands and i find thumboards very comfortable, and the one on the T|W/T|C is one of the best their is--infinitely better than sony's just because of key shape/feel and placing, and better than treo's because it's roomier.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
peitron @ 4/23/2003 11:50:37 AM #
I agree with kidA. And I'm preety sure the Blackberry market is much more attractive than the "power user" market. Just stroll around in downtown Manhattan and you'll understand.

_____________________________________________
"Why should I care about posterity? What's posterity ever done for me?" - Groucho Marx
RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
elo @ 4/23/2003 12:43:27 PM #
Uh, clearly the T|T will be upgraded. It's not like there is a rule limiting them to one form factor. If these new models prove anything, it is that Palm wants to offer options for different types of users within the Tungsten and Zire lines. More will follow.

elo

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
io333 @ 4/23/2003 1:15:31 PM #
I think the problem with the thumboard vs. no thumboard argument is that most folks don't understand that some people have much more finger/thumbtip sensitivity than others. The most obvious case is say someone who has been a musician since they were a child -- that person is going to find teeny things much easier to operate.

Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 2:09:44 PM #
Why, did they drop the T|T?

One device does not fit all, and Palm, like many others, is just trying to cover some bases. It costs a ton of money to have 12 different variations of three machines to mix and match features that many want.

And somebody will still whine- "This chair is too hard!"

The fact is that a great many people prefer a thumbboard over Graffiti. And will I don't use one, I find Graffiti inferior to the PPC's handwriting recognition. I hope G2 is an improvment over G.

Watching people send text messages over the phone, and using a RIM, tells me that a keyboard/thumboard is very popular, and can be much faster than any form of handwriting, except for Gregg. Does anybody still use that?

It's all a situation, and sometimes it's about compromise.


______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
MacTheMan @ 4/23/2003 3:02:16 PM #
What this discussion seem to neglect is the basic difference between a RIM and a Palm:
- RIM's are made with a keyboard in mind. They don't require that a stylus is kept handy to make entries.
- Palm's are made for a stylus - not for a keyboard.

And another thing: the RIM is not only a piece of hardware. It also requires that additional software is installed on your corporate email server.
Palm makes nice PDA's, but will ultimately fall short when it comes to provide similar services/functionality as a RIM.

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 3:14:44 PM #
Some one earlier said IR should be phased out. It is very handy to use it as a remote. Also, you can't expect every Palm OS user to upgrade thier PDAs. I know someone who still used a Pilot5000 (I don't know why). Phasing out IR would divide the POS crowd into two sections.

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 5:53:10 PM #
We had to start dropping floppy drives eventually. I say drop IR too, and replace with Bluetooth. With these new Palms, it is going to be at least next year before we see Bluetooth as a standard in the PDA world.
RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 6:18:03 PM #
Fine, but PDA's don't set the EOL timeline for IR. When your TV uses Bluetooth for the Remote, *THEN* we'll know Bluetooth has arrived and IR is fading. And only then will it be appropriate to drop it.

The floppy example is bad because floppies originated on PC's, not so IR on PDA's. The primary user base is what sets the timeline of a connection technology.

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
RSC @ 4/23/2003 7:20:56 PM #
On the other hand, the IR transmitter/receiver on most PalmOS devices is too poor to use for anything other than transferring data to other (nearby) PDAs, so they really do control the EOL for IR use on handhelds. Very few devices have strong enough IR to control your TV/VCR/Stereo/DVD/Tivo/etc from across the room.
RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 7:28:45 PM #
I'm guessing you either frequent some very large rooms, or you're another "satisfied" Clie user ;-)
Actually most PalmOS devices other Clies have very usable IR range for this purpose. See chart:
http://www.pacificneotek.com/range.htm

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
Altema @ 4/23/2003 7:46:38 PM #
"However, the mono output on the jack is a huge mistake."

I agree completely. I was drooling on my desk and all but ordered the T|C, but stopped cold when I found out about the mono output. One of the big attractions was the super battery and a virtual warehouse of RAM. Catching up on the movie you can't find the time for at home, spending hours and hours of mp3 playback, not having to unload maps after Mapopolis guides me to my destination...

Those daydreams were shot down by a mono plug. Sniff :(

RE: So Palm gives up on the T|T form-factor?
RAMdŽd @ 4/24/2003 1:46:24 AM #
- Palm's are made for a stylus - not for a keyboard.


Where is the stylus on the T|C?

The comparisons between the |C and the RIM need only concern the keyboard, given the context.

A *lot* of people like thumboards. Whether software is required on the server or not is irrelevant, again, given the context of the original reference.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

Paging abosco!

mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:31:01 AM #
So who is "posterboy"? Is it one of ska's noms de PIC?

RE: Paging abosco!
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:44:04 AM #
I'm a newbie dude. I happen to read a lot of PICs. Cut the crap.

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: Paging abosco!
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:47:15 AM #
BTW, I also happen to hate that "ska" guy's posting also. hehehe! :D

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: Paging abosco!
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:48:00 AM #
Suddenly you can spell. Spare me. Spare us.

RE: Paging abosco!
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:50:14 AM #
Can I private msg you instead? Its like its gonna be never ending when we still do our postings here. Could we take it somewhere else? I just want to know your thoughts and hates. :)

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: Paging abosco!
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 8:52:14 AM #
Go away.

RE: Paging abosco!
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:56:21 AM #
kantotmonanaymo ok. i go in peace. :)

Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it!
RE: Paging abosco!
SonofWan @ 4/23/2003 11:20:49 AM #
"Its like its gonna be never ending"

Awe.. man and I thought we were witnessing a blushing romance heheeh ;-D

RE: Paging abosco!
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 1:12:16 PM #
All I can say is "GOOD GOD you two!" *GRIN*

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Paging abosco!
graph @ 4/23/2003 1:50:10 PM #
" RE: Paging abosco!
posterboy @ 4/23/2003 8:56:21 AM
kantotmonanaymo ok. i go in peace. :)"

translation, F*** your mom.



RE: Paging abosco!
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 1:54:29 PM #
Ok now I'm curious what language is that?

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Paging abosco!
abosco @ 4/23/2003 3:50:30 PM #
Trust me, I'll tell you when BlueAnon switches names. It's better not to call people ska/BlueAnon until I positively identify it's him, namely because if they actually know who you're talking about, then you've got another enemy.

Here's a short list of previous ones:

ska (original)
TawnerX
BlueAnon
~ska~

That's it so far.

Email me, there's such an easy way to identify ska if you want to do it yourself. ABosco1@comcast.net All quiet on the western front, though.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: Paging abosco!
JKingGrim @ 4/24/2003 3:17:57 PM #
Why does he even chage? Bosco will sniff him out before he finishes typing in his password (wich is probably 'Pocket PC').

RE: Paging abosco!
Foo Fighter @ 4/25/2003 12:16:10 PM #
Just as long as the name Foo Fighter doesn't appear on that list, we'll get along smashingly.

On the downside...

MV-Jon @ 4/23/2003 8:57:07 AM #
Well, it was cool that we were all able to scrape together info on these units over the past week or so, but at the same time I feel that knowing all this before the official announcement took away some fun too. Today's announcement seems kind of anti-climactic now.



Jon Niola
President/CEO
Media Vortex, Inc.

RE: On the downside...
peitron @ 4/23/2003 9:23:20 AM #
I agree. The joy is gone.

Alas, we can still speculate on OS 5.2 for Palm TT...

_____________________________________________
"Why should I care about posterity? What's posterity ever done for me?" - Groucho Marx

RE: On the downside...
MonkeyK @ 4/23/2003 9:49:51 AM #
Aw, come on! We still have Sony's response to speculate about!

RE: On the downside...
MV-Jon @ 4/23/2003 9:57:38 AM #
This is true. I am sure Sony has SOMETHING coming out. The NZ90 has a lot of cool features, but it is just too damn large of a form factor. At that size I may as well move up to using a sub-notebook instead of a PDA.


Jon Niola
President/CEO
Media Vortex, Inc.

RE: On the downside...
Tungsten @ 4/23/2003 6:01:03 PM #
For Sony to make an impact, here are my realistic (wishful) expectations:

$129
SJ22 reduced from $199->$179->$149 (long-term) making it the lowest of the ends. At this point, monochrome shall die a slow, painful death.

$179
SJ33 reduced from $299->199 due to pressure from Zire71. Sales suffered severely from OS5/PPC competition. Finally pushed to $179 to make room for its successor..

$199
"SJ44" 'New' SJ series body. 200MHz, OS 5.2.1, 320x320 transflective, MP3/Multimedia, MSPro support. This will be the hottest seller of the year.

$249
TG50 dropped from $399->$299 and then ->$249 at the launch of the "SJ66"

$299
"SJ66" A replacement for both SJ33 and TG50. 'New' SJ series body. 200MHz, OS 5.2.1, 320x480 transflective (virtual graffiti), bluetooth, built-in 1.3 Megapixel camera, user-replaceable 1200mAh li-poly battery.

Anyone cares to fill in for the high-end?

RE: On the downside...
graph @ 4/23/2003 6:35:39 PM #
NX with no CF thats probably for sure.

RE: On the downside...
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 7:15:13 PM #
someone wrote:
>At this point, monochrome shall die a slow, painful death.

While selling zillions of units to people who prefer the affordability and extra long battery life which a monochrome display provides.

RE: On the downside...
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 8:20:41 PM #
> "SJ44" [ ... ] This will be the hottest seller of the year.

You misspelt the original Palm Zire.

RE: On the downside...
Tungsten @ 4/25/2003 2:46:26 PM #
> You misspelt the original Palm Zire.
That was last year, thanks for playing.

Screen

asiayeah @ 4/23/2003 9:39:58 AM #
So how does the screen of Zire 71 compare to the Tungsten T?

Are they the same?

Tony

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Screen
MV-Jon @ 4/23/2003 9:44:07 AM #
The screen on the Zire 71 blows the T|T's screen away. It is transflective, a LOT brighter, and the contrast is really nice.


Jon Niola
President/CEO
Media Vortex, Inc.

RE: Screen
peitron @ 4/23/2003 11:53:21 AM #
Except when it's a sunny day out and you want to step out for a smoke. Then the TT rules. We'll never be completely satisfied, will we?

_____________________________________________
"Why should I care about posterity? What's posterity ever done for me?" - Groucho Marx
RE: Screen
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 2:19:20 PM #
I've got to see more examples of screens.

While I don't use my V outside often, I can always read it under most ambient light conditions. (The backlight is no fun, though.)

I've got an LG VX4400 phone with a color screen that's virtually impossible to read outdoors or in a car, unless you catch the light right. The B&W screen is just fine, though.

My iPAQ is the same way but not quite so bad.

Is this an either/or situation with the screens? What's the best compromise, without resorting to an IFR hood?

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: Screen
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 3:21:43 PM #
>>Except when it's a sunny day out and you want to step out for a smoke. Then the TT rules. We'll never be completely satisfied, will we?<<

I was satisfied with the T|t screen. I don't need a super bright screen. I just want one that works in all conditions.


RE: Screen
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 1:43:38 AM #
Answer: Semi-transreflective. But there is only one company currently making such screen in a product. It's Japanese Casio. If it is succesfull, the second generation semi-transreflective will hit the US model.

No PIC review?

Scott R @ 4/23/2003 9:48:37 AM #
What I want to know is why Brighthand and Infosync both have initial reviews out and PIC only has essentially a press release. Is it because Ryan is diligently working to provide a quality detailed review or is Palm not supplying PIC with review devices? If it's the latter, that's ridiculous. PIC is far and away the biggest Palm site out there. I speculate about this because I seem to recall this happening with one of the last release Palm OS devices (can't remember if it was a Palm SG device or one of the other licencees). Ryan, care to comment?

Scott

RE: No PIC review?
Admin @ 4/23/2003 11:03:16 AM #
working on it, the review staff has been a bit understaffed of late.
RE: No PIC review?
Beavis @ 4/23/2003 4:23:19 PM #
Send me one. I'll review it.

RE: No PIC review?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:22:53 AM #
Send me two. I'll do a head-to-head review!

RE: No PIC review?
abosco @ 4/24/2003 5:14:33 PM #
Want me to go for the threesome?

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

No microphone on the Tungsten C

pfh @ 4/23/2003 10:05:21 AM #
Very disappointing. You have to plug in a Nokia-type headset to record voice memos. They didn't even build the Voice Memo app into ROM, you have to load it off the CD.

RE: No microphone on the Tungsten C
ganoe @ 4/23/2003 11:33:07 AM #
Yep. Palm send this one back to the drawing board. At a minimum add the clever mechanism on the Zaurus SL-5500 where the same jack could be used for stereo headphones out or a headset. A built-in mic and stereo out would be better. Bluetooth is a must.

RE: No microphone on the Tungsten C
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 3:32:40 PM #
Voice memo is not in ROM because not everyone wants it.

Why the seam?

StatCoder.com @ 4/23/2003 12:09:36 PM #
OK, if the Tungsten C doesn't have a slider, why is there a seam at the base of the screen like the C?
RE: Why the seam?
jlc @ 4/23/2003 12:28:12 PM #
It's part of the hip design. I can assure you there is no slider on the C.

RE: Why the seam?
kidA @ 4/23/2003 12:43:10 PM #
the T|W has it too.

i'm not living, i'm just killing time.

Where is the Tungsten T2?

Gekko @ 4/23/2003 12:28:21 PM #
Same as T1 BUT:

1. 64MB RAM.
2. OS 5.2.1.
3. Transflective Screen.
4. Built-In Bluetooth AND Wi-Fi.



RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
MV-Jon @ 4/23/2003 12:31:45 PM #
Now THAT would be the ultimate device :)


Jon Niola
President/CEO
Media Vortex, Inc.

RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
Altema @ 4/23/2003 1:50:38 PM #
And THAT's the one I was waiting for. Wi-Fi would be optional for me, but I would not complain if it was built in.

Now I'm in a quandry. Suffer through my disappointment and get the T|T1 now beause I'm tired of waiting, get the Z71 and forget about any wireless, get the T|C and be upset when the T|T2 DOES come out...

Or just keep waiting.



RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 2:41:56 PM #
Where would they put the 3x larger battery required to backup all that RAM, power the wifi radios, and run a backlight bright enough for a light absorbing (trans) display?
RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
hkklife @ 4/23/2003 2:58:07 PM #
Much more realistically, I'd be happy with a T|T refreshed with:

1. 32 mb ram and Intel CPU of the T|W (but cranked down a notch for better battery life)
2. Backlit Graffiti area
3. OS 5.2.x (switchable between Graffiti1 & Graffiti2)
4. Web browser, Versamail etc loaded in ROM like T|C

Palm can honestly keep the built-in wi-fi out of the T|T until the next generation. I don't even use Bluetooth for right now, actually. For me personally, I find that the screen on the T|T is a nice compromise and is usable in basically all environments (outdoors, indoors w/ dim ambient lighting etc).

RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
ZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 3:56:36 PM #
Not a bad idea - but remember, they switched to Graffiti 2 because of an ongoing lawsuit. If you want G1, you're going to have to buy TealScript, from www.tealpoint.com ... at least you can add your own strokes to it ...

RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
hkklife @ 4/23/2003 6:23:50 PM #
If Xerox were smart, instead of trying to sue the pants off of everyone, they'd offer a $10-$15 downloadable "plugin" for all Palms with OS 5.2 or 4.2 or higher...instant Graffiti 1 functionality AND it'd help put $ in Xerox's coffers AND it'd help mend the dispute between the parties.

RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 6:26:55 PM #
Instead of all this back and forth about deciding between a Camera, an SD memory card, BT, WiFi, IR, should the only stuff built in be the stuff that cheap and small enough so as to not make much difference to price either way, and just include dual SD slots? There's still a need IMV for au general purpose PalmOS PDA with a CF slot, but it wouldn't be hard to fit dual SD slots into either a T/C or TT.

Then there'd be less of a need for 64-128MB of RAM, one slot can have as much flash memory as you need, and 32MB would likely be sufficient for the RAM.

Then you wouldn't have to torture yourself over which device to get because you can add whatever RF or Camera type you need to the second slot. Surely the Dana won't be the first and the last PalmOS device with dual SD slots...



RE: Where is the Tungsten T2?
Tungsten @ 4/23/2003 6:28:47 PM #
Nice specs. I'd call it though, "Tungsten|T-2 - The Revenge"

scroll wheel

carioca76 @ 4/23/2003 12:36:31 PM #
This may be picky & may be just because I've had a clie for the last year but do Palm brand PDA's not have a scroll wheel?
I love the wheel. maybe the 5 direction pad replaces it but ... I want a wheel. Funny how that could make or break my decision (& the fact that I love my clie)
Great device otherwise.
Waiting for sony's response to Palm's wifi & garmin's 320X480 non clamshell pda's ...

RE: scroll wheel
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 1:26:06 PM #
I have admit I agree with you there. When I first used my NX70v, I wasn't comfortable with the jog dial button, but now I use it more rather than trying to tap the scroll button and it would scroll more than you want to and gets a bit annoying there. My previous PDA was the M505 and loved it, however it doesn't want to sync anymore so I put it to rest in its box and wanted to try something different so I got a Clie. If my Clie ever goes out on me, I am seriously thinking of getting a Palm once again...

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: scroll wheel
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 2:29:16 PM #
Yes! Gekko's T|II (see above) with a scroll wheel! That would be very nice.

I realize that cost and space would tend to rule that out, I think there is "room" for both.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

Ouch.
RAMdŽd @ 4/23/2003 2:36:00 PM #
I hate it when that happens.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.
RE: scroll wheel
bsquare @ 4/23/2003 3:15:42 PM #

Scroll wheels may be good for you, but there are a large number of us southpaws that will find a scroll wheel useless. Good for palm for continuing to make a "uni-hand" devices.

RE: scroll wheel
jjsoh @ 4/23/2003 3:40:08 PM #
RAMdŽd, not to sound like a newbie, but I've always wondered how to post comments with words bolded (and possibly other formatting techniques). May I ask how you did it?

Jim
RE: scroll wheel
ZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 3:58:42 PM #
Ahh, but Sony has patented the hell out of the Jog Dial so PalmSG would have to license it - if Sony would let them (hint: NO) ... in one of my other posts, I posted a link to their most recent patent - something about a Jog Dial on a cellphone ...

RE: scroll wheel
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 6:35:19 PM #
"Scroll wheels may be good for you, but there are a large number of us southpaws that will find a scroll wheel useless. Good for palm for continuing to make a "uni-hand" devices."

?? They work for lefties too. I'm right handed, my wife's left handed. We both use the HandEra 330's jog dial. In the left hand the thumb operates it. In the right hand, the index finger. Works fine both ways.

"Ahh, but Sony has patented the hell out of the Jog Dial so PalmSG would have to license it"

Naw, Sony has patented the version that rotates 360 degrees. Which is actually my least favorite version of it. I prefer the type found on PocketPC's, the Handspring Treo, and the HandEra 330, where it spring returns to center. Then for long scrolling distances, you just hold it rotated partially up or down, and the pointer keeps moving. There's too much movement required with the Sony jog dial for my taste.

RE: scroll wheel
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 6:58:45 PM #
>>Ahh, but Sony has patented the hell out of the Jog Dial so PalmSG would have to license it - if Sony would let them (hint: NO) ... in one of my other posts, I posted a link to their most recent patent - something about a Jog Dial on a cellphone ...<<

Yeah, but SONY is a POS licensee. They get free run on a feature for a certain period, then it is run into the OS. Just like hires and VG. The navigator will face this too.

RE: scroll wheel
RSC @ 4/23/2003 7:26:00 PM #
"Naw, Sony has patented the version that rotates 360 degrees. Which is actually my least favorite version of it. I prefer the type found on PocketPC's, the Handspring Treo, and the HandEra 330, where it spring returns to center. Then for long scrolling distances, you just hold it rotated partially up or down, and the pointer keeps moving. There's too much movement required with the Sony jog dial for my taste."

I have a Sony Clie NR-70V, and I agree with this. I would prefer one that you don't have to continue to scroll. However, any kind of scroll wheel certainly beats not having one! It's really uncomfortable trying to read an e-book one-handed and change pages using the up/down buttons. You have to hold the device at the very bottom (may be a problem with all these new 5-way navigator buttons too...)

RE: scroll wheel
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 7:33:36 PM #
"Yeah, but SONY is a POS licensee. They get free run on a feature for a certain period, then it is run into the OS. Just like hires and VG. The navigator will face this too."

?? I agree with the first sentence I guess but how do you figure there's any benevolent feature feeding back to the community with Sony? High-res came to the platform also through HandEra, in fact the 330 was announced before the N710C, and shipped before it as well. Only the N700 announcement for the Japan only model pre-dated the HandEra announcement, and I don't have a shipping date on it to know if it pre-shipped.

But neither the HandEra nor Sony high-res API made into the OS5 API untoched, it's got concepts from both. And *certainly* virtual graffiti came 2 years ago through the HandEra 330, only more recently as an also-have through Sony. The only other licensee to have VG in an OS5 device (apart from Sony and their own VG API) is Garmin, and I'm not aware that we're able to know what form of API they're using and where it has it's roots from (if not original to Garmin). Same goes with Voice Recording (from HandEra), standard card slots (from HandEra/Trg), swappable lithium-ion packs (from HandEra), separate 12V DC port. I can't think of anything come to think of it, that has come into the OS out the benevolence of Sony, either by hardware example, or cross-licencing or API giveaways. Well maybe sylii that are too short and thin, but we'll stick to desired features... Sony has copied lots (badly implementing their own API's along the way), and they've done some of their own oddball innovation, but none of that has been in the form of something that has filtered back into the platform for use by all licensees. HandEra on the other hand has always been there to help other PalmOS licensees, and now presumably will again concentrate on that full time, as they used to before branding their own PDA's additionally.

New Web Browser

mbergen @ 4/23/2003 1:07:13 PM #
Is the new web browser available for download? I have a T|T and a BT phone, and the browser that comes bundled with the Palm T|T sucks. I'm hoping for a better one.

RE: New Web Browser
bcombee @ 4/23/2003 1:35:58 PM #
The new browser requires Palm OS 5.2, so its unlikely to be available for the T|T until an OS upgrade is released.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: New Web Browser
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 2:44:12 PM #
More to the point, that browser seems to require a significantly larger dynamic heap. A 11 MB heap on a TT would leave you with only 5 MB of storage.

I like it!

HiWire @ 4/23/2003 1:07:16 PM #
Whatever people say, these are still a step forward for Palm. At least they didn't let their lineup stagnate, and the form factor of the Zire makes me happy. I would buy one if I was looking...

Does anybody know if they will ever make 16.7 million colour screens?

Palm m505 User

RE: I like it!
ZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 4:01:09 PM #
Not a bad idea - but remember, video cards for PDAs arent exactly as advanced :P

24-bit video is in the future, I'm sure - just not for a while ...

RE: I like it!
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 7:50:03 PM #
"Does anybody know if they will ever make 16.7 million colour screens?"

If they were certain of selling them all, likely. There's around 20 million monochrome ones out there on PalmOS PDA's. Given the high percentage of PDA's with color screens these days, it's only a matter of time before Palm or Sony has sold that many.

... Oh, you meant color depth, my bad ;-)

RE: I like it!
hotpaw4 @ 4/24/2003 12:55:49 AM #
> Does anybody know if they will ever make 16.7 million colour screens?

Twice the memory required to refresh the display, half the battery life... maybe only for the high-end multimedia models (NZ) which include larger batteries.

I got a new Piggy Bank!

i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 1:20:39 PM #
Seems like a new PDA seems to get better as the years go by. Slowly but surely. I already bought a new piggy bank to fill it up with $$$ so when the 'ideal' or 'nearly perfect' does come out I'll be ready and it'll be fun to break the bank once again! umm the piggy bank that is! But for now, I'm happy and satisfied with my NX70v for the time being... *SMILE*

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
cbowers @ 4/23/2003 7:54:13 PM #
Indeed, only another year or two and they'll be as full featured and cheap as PocketPC's... (he says bitterly).

Just as much horsepower now, only a little ways to go, a bit more RAM, dual slots (with CF), more expansion option drivers, in something around a Dell price...

Actually starting from two years ago with the HE330, to today with the NZ90/T-T/T-C you can get almost all of the typical features on a PocketPC. The sad part is that in the PalmOS platform you can't get them all in the same device. In the PocketPC platform, it's harder not to find them all in the same device.

It be easier to celbrate the diversity, nay insanely diverse extremes, in this platform, if we had solid meat and potatoes general purpose PDA's (aka *full* featured) in the middle.

And that's one of the few things I think our competition has right. Most of the PocketPC's are full featured meat and potatoes devices (dual slot, CF support, huge array of expansion accessories *with driver support*, all with a 240x320 virtual graffiti dispaly, generally with a 12V DC port, all with voice recording and multimedia playback, all with a fast ARM processor, all with a good chunk of RAM-though well needed, many with swappable Lithium packs, etc). Then you can branch out with the ultra thin and light and compromise on one end, or ultra-features (built-in of BT/WiFi/biometrics while still offering dual slots in one single device).

Where are the stable middle devices, the features Enterprises, Industry, and developers, can rely on and build 1,2,3 year business models around?

Sure let's embrace our PalmOS freedom and diversity, but lets also encourage PalmSource to lead and direct firmly, and retreat from chaos in the platform.


RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 1:37:10 AM #
Palm cannot compete in 'meat and potato' category! that's why Palm need gimmick.

It'll get chew up against product like Dell, toshiba or HP.

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 7:37:26 AM #
Please go hang yourself...

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 2:41:40 PM #
Did you mom forget to spank you again this morning.
RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/24/2003 2:56:02 PM #
Uh-oh.....

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
robrecht @ 4/24/2003 3:10:11 PM #
cbowers, as always, great post

Thanks, robrecht
RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
abosco @ 4/24/2003 5:16:31 PM #
"Please go hang yourself..."

HAHAHAHA!!!

Mike, your insults just get better and better! You've been on fire this week.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:29:28 PM #
He doesn't have to do it from his neck. I'd settle for a more sensitive body part... he needn't use rope. He can use wire!

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
Thaddeus Cultt @ 4/25/2003 1:00:45 PM #
BlueAnon, (or anyone else out there who is) you seem be a PPC person, I had one for about a week (Toshiba e335) which I exchanged for a palm (Zire 71). Now I have no grudges aginst any OS here, and the Toshiba hardware did seem top notch, but Pocket PC just wasn't the OS for me. What I want to know is why is it that Microsoft has used the 'X' in EVERY GUI version (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember it on Windows 286) to CLOSE an app, why, why, why would the change it to MINIMIZE in PPC. Couldn't they have added a second control icon, or at least used the correct icon? Seems to me wr don't see Ford or Chevy changing the order of the gas and break peddles. This was my biggest confusion in design.


"...in the end the only one left smiling was the Jester, and his was only painted on..." - TC

RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
BlueAnon @ 4/26/2003 5:00:04 PM #
well obviously you don't know the concept of downloading freebie. (You can add second button, erasing first buttons, doubling the first button to second buttons, move the first buttons, skin the second buttons.... you get the point...)
RE: I got a new Piggy Bank!
Thaddeus Cultt @ 4/29/2003 7:32:39 PM #
I do understand downloading additions, I use Palm OS, and hacks are a way of life, it's just that this seems like a case where I shouldn't have to. I haven't seen Ford switch around the gas and break peddles on any of their new cars.

TC

"...in the end the only one left smiling was the Jester, and his was only painted on..." - TC

No Bluetooth?!

rchristopher @ 4/23/2003 1:25:44 PM #
Anyone else blown away by the fact that Palm decided to leave out the one feature that would have made this beauty the perfect Palm? WiFi is great, where it's available. The rest of the time I rely on my GPRS phone to stay connected. Doing that w/ IrDA is beyond tedious. What do others think?
RE: No Bluetooth?!
Zuber @ 4/23/2003 1:36:16 PM #
I agree, for me Bluetooth is essential on a PDA unless it includes a phone as well.

However, perhaps Palm intend to offer an OS update for the current TT and just ship the TT with OS 5.2 (I hope)

That way, those wanting the most compact device possible. i.e. Those that want to carry it everywhere and carry their phone as well would be able to buy a device with the latest OS (v5.2) with the most compact formfactor.

Zuber

Nice

breisinger @ 4/23/2003 1:27:04 PM #
Just picked one up. Very nice. It has a great feel and the "click" sound has authority. Camera is great for email and low res, the majority of what most users really need.

wow, how times have changed...
bobes @ 4/24/2003 3:06:00 PM #
I remember reading lots of posts from bitching about the NX's low res camera
RE: Nice
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:30:57 PM #
Yeah, but the NX was FIVE HUNDRED BUCKS! This is $300. And it's cute and cuddly, awww....

Ultimate Device

JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 3:38:44 PM #
The Z71 is really tempting me, but I want something at least leaning toward this.

400 mhz Intel CPU
32 mb RAM
320x480 16bit VG screen
T|c form factor
SD expansion
CF slot(possibly)
Huge battery
Jog dial with back button
hold switch
IR port
5 way navigator
Universal port

I would also like it bundled with Kinoma Producer and Documents To Go.

What do you think? Possible?

RE: Ultimate Device
JKingGrim @ 4/23/2003 3:45:09 PM #
Forgot.

Stereo speaker and stereo output.

RE: Ultimate Device
astroboy @ 4/23/2003 5:44:33 PM #
So then my question is...

...how much would you pay for such a device?

RE: Ultimate Device
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 6:05:25 PM #
For me....under a $1000 with a bit more added functionality and throw a few more apps that is listed above. There are many gadgets/toys out there I would rather spend that much money for, but of course people who can afford it would pay for it.

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Ultimate Device -- AMEN Brother!
jho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 6:47:22 PM #
http://members.cox.net/jerrodh/TungstenCv.jpg

But keep the 64MB.

I'd like an integrated flip-cover a la TG50, but I'm not that advanced in photoshop ;-) This is actually my first mod just for fun :-)

-JWH

RE: Ultimate Device
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 6:57:13 PM #
Hey thats a pretty nice job you did! Simple yet elegant...

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Ultimate Device
jho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 7:10:56 PM #
thanks... accidentally nuked the power button though.

uh.... it's on top! ;-)


-JWH

RE: Ultimate Device
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 7:32:51 PM #
Ok then lets just say as an addition to your mock device, its also voice activated, no additional button required *GRIN*

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Ultimate Device
ZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 9:20:41 PM #
You added too much vertically - fix it, and there may be a real bottom to the device :P

RE: Ultimate Device
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 9:23:07 PM #
Man, that thing is UGH-LEEEEE. But I want that 320x480 screen!

RE: Ultimate Device
ggeoffre @ 4/23/2003 11:21:50 PM #
See what happens when engineers start to actually listen to you guys (browse to some of the URLs in the links section for the oqo)...

http://www.stevebarr.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/barrst/goto.pl?oqo#links

Windows XP, 1GHz Crusoe processor, 10GB hard drive, 256MB RAM, 4" 640x480 touchscreen display, 1394 FireWire, USB, 802.11 and Bluetooth in a 4.9 x 2.9 x 0.9 inch 9 ounce device!

Oh, Brother, Where Are Thou? This thread reminds me of "The Homer"...

http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-146/epid-1313/

http://www.grantstoys.com/images/homercar.jpg


RE: Ultimate Device
carioca76 @ 4/23/2003 11:49:22 PM #
I want the OQO.
but I been waiting nearly a year now.
I'd much rather pocket a 20 gig xp machine than a 64 mb palm machine.
1500-1800 is a bit much & more than they wanted a year ago ... may keep going up by time of release.
Wish pda's would catch up. There is way too much of a gap here. At OQO & Tiqit & vulcan & ... you got full pc's with built in wireless everything & ports to everything & 8 hour battery & ...
Then you got the top of the line palm with ... no where near those specs.
Granted I can't buy an OQO yet, but they have them & have demo'd them.
Can't we get maybe an in-between. Maybe a pIII 500 with a 10 gb drive for $750 :)
maybe I'm just dreaming
here's waiting for what sony can come out with in a few weeks

RE: Ultimate Device
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:25:09 AM #
>>This thread reminds me of "The Homer"...

-- paint it black and I'll buy it.

RE: Ultimate Device
hotpaw4 @ 4/24/2003 1:07:13 AM #
> Wish pda's would catch up. There is way too much of a gap here.

Not really. When related to battery size and total system weight, the latest PDA's outperform portable PC's at some tasks already.

PDA's have already come a long way. It seems like it was only a few years back when the most powerful computer in all of Northern California ran at 80 MHz and had 8 MBytes of memory.

RE: Ultimate Device
JKingGrim @ 4/24/2003 3:47:08 PM #
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/2314074.jpg

A bit small, but what do you think?

RE: Ultimate Device
DavisC @ 4/25/2003 12:28:36 AM #
Here's my (low-res) version of an ultimate device--
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Apr/20034244259365551634871.jpg

RE: Ultimate Device
DavisC @ 4/30/2003 12:38:38 AM #
RE: Ultimate Device
MasterSamwise @ 5/5/2003 4:16:48 AM #
Much better. But I like the T|C form factor better. The mod from before just had no bottom.

Who wants a built-in AM/FM Radio?

Gekko @ 4/23/2003 6:07:38 PM #
I do.

RE: Who wants a built-in AM/FM Radio?
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 6:12:45 PM #
AM would do it for me because I listen more to talk radio then music itself. The last time I ever used a walkman was in high school and I don't even listen to MP3 on my Clie let alone using the voice recording feature! It'd be nice to listen to Tom Leykis on my PDA *GRIN*.

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Who wants a built-in AM/FM Radio?
RSC @ 4/23/2003 7:32:34 PM #
These days, you can just buy some headphones that have AM/FM radios built right into them.
RE: Who wants a built-in AM/FM Radio?
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 7:36:51 PM #
I have thought about it, but I don't think I will get it just yet. I have used every functionality on my Clie NX70V but have not used/tested the headphones that came with it. I don't seem to need/want to use those just yet and the built in speaker is just right for the beeps and bops it makes. I am not sure but I buy that new CD driver for the Clie, and there is a CF am/fm radio built in, I'd still listen it through the built in speaker rather than the headphones. I guess I'm not really a fond of headphones now to think about it.

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Who wants a built-in AM/FM Radio?
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 7:43:02 PM #
On a side not to all of you...I tend to type VERY FAST and may make some typo here and there so forgive me :-) Also, english is my third language *grin*

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Who wants a built-in AM/FM Radio?
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 4/23/2003 7:44:43 PM #
Oops, not to spam post here but that word 'not' was meant to be *note* grrrr, hate myself...

...|3eep |3eep!!...

Here's what *I* Want!! (with photo edit for my own fun)

jho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 6:39:43 PM #
I love EVERYTHING about the new T|C *except* the thumboard. The Wi-Fi will be great on campus, the 64MB is a dream!! However, I'd rather have 320x480 than a thumboard... hands down.

Here's what I would buy:

Tungsten T|Cv (v for virtual grafitti)
400 MHz
64MB
Wi-Fi (Bluetooth not necessary... get a T|T)

Anyway... this is such a minor modification, I thought I'd make it my first Photoshop mod... *Boy do I suck at this program!* Check it out:

http://members.cox.net/jerrodh/TungstenCv.jpg

RE: Here's what *I* Want!! (with photo edit for my own fun)
PDASteve @ 4/24/2003 10:35:48 PM #
Ahhh.

If Palm built this just how many of them would they sell?

You hit the nail on the head...


Just picked mine up from J&R Music World

alee @ 4/23/2003 7:53:44 PM #
The joys of living in NYC. :) Just picked up a Tungsten C at J&R Music World. It's charging right now. Early impression (without having turned on the unit)... compared to my Tungsten T and my Blackberry 957, it feels very "cheap". I know that's kind of hard to quantify, but I guess I'm not happy with the plastic finish. My Blackberry has a plastic exterior also, but feels solid. We'll see if this continues to bother me.

I only played briefly with the Tungsten C display model at J&R, but it was impressive enough for me to want to buy it. VERY fast compared to my Tungsten T.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
rsc1000 @ 4/23/2003 8:11:01 PM #
>>VERY fast compared to my Tungsten T.

Is it really noticably faster? Hard to imagine - but i'll take yr word for it:) The T|T already feels instaneous - i have a hard time using PPCs anymore because they feel S-O S-L-U-G-G-I-S-H (not mention that PPC screens actually look really grainy now)compared to T|T - and i'm talking about the new iPAQ 5450. Seriously - not enough has been written about how OS 5 proves the bloatedness of windows ce. Can't wait to see the T|C in action.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
hotpaw4 @ 4/23/2003 8:30:49 PM #
>>VERY fast compared to my Tungsten T.
>Is it really noticably faster?

The raw benchmarks show the T|C CPU to be around 2 to 3 times faster at many tasks compared with the OMAP ARM9 in the T|T (m550). It looks like the 400 MHz Intel PXA255 as used by PalmSG may have fixed some of the performance problems that plagued earlier implementations of PPC XScale systems.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
mikecane @ 4/23/2003 9:25:04 PM #
Aw, ^%$#@! Today's the day I took the subway and bypassed J&R, rather than walking and stopping in as I did yesterday! Do they have a WiFi demo going? I'd really like to test the WiFi capabilities. Hey, you! Test this: Can you use YMail via the web interface at http://mail.yahoo.com ??

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
alee @ 4/24/2003 12:23:41 AM #
> Aw, ^%$#@! Today's the day I took the subway and
> bypassed J&R, rather than walking and stopping in as I
> did yesterday! Do they have a WiFi demo going? I'd
> really like to test the WiFi capabilities. Hey, you!
> Test this: Can you use YMail via the web interface at
> http://mail.yahoo.com ??

They have a WiFi point but it's not set up properly so you can't do any WiFi tests. You may be able to snag a stray access point though. I didn't press the sales guy about it though. mail.yahoo.com works perfectly fine. Most web pages are rendered 90-100% accurate.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 7:39:14 AM #
alee, have you hit Bryant Park with it yet?

How fast do pages render? Over at another site (which I will not name), they talk about the sheer frigging *speed* of it. I've tried WiFi on PPCs -- "speed" is not a word you would use with them! Despite the &^%$#@ keyboard, I'm very interested in this baby!

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
alee @ 4/24/2003 8:44:08 AM #
Mike, I will probably hit Bryant Park this weekend to see how well it works. As for page rendering speed, it is FAST. Seriously fast. Compared to my old IPAQ 3835 brick with the PC Card attachment, rendering is much much faster.

WiFi syncing is also exceptionally fast. No doubt it's as fast as USB syncs.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 8:49:25 AM #
Oh man oh man oh man... thanks.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
Altema @ 4/24/2003 9:06:25 AM #
Anything in the Wi-Fi setup regarding LEAP?

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
alee @ 4/24/2003 10:06:13 AM #
Can't do Cisco LEAP.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
Altema @ 4/25/2003 11:27:46 AM #
Nuts

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
mikecane @ 4/25/2003 8:47:03 PM #
Update us on the TungC you have! I stopped by J&R today. The C picked up two nets, but neither could provide an IP address (or else I wasn't willing to wait more than 60 seconds with those shark salesmen wondering if I was going to increase their incomes today!) -- I chalk that up to J&R, not the TC. Damn, but hooking up to WiFi seems Typically Palm: EASY!

OTOH, I don't see what all the raves are about the TC and Z71 screens. I still think the hp 1910 PPC has the best screen.

RE: Just picked mine up from J&R Music World
mikecane @ 4/27/2003 2:34:17 PM #
OK, my local CompUSA *finally* installed a WiFi access point so they can demo WiFi. I've tried the TungC (there as well as two other stores) -- and I have to say I think it comes up *very* short. In fact, in a head-to-head "Death Match" I did between it and a WiFied (built-in) Toshiba e740 PPC, I preferred the e740 hands-down. The TungC is a kludge for suckers.

Palm needs the Tungsten X -- 320x480 screen with built-in WiFi. And *classic* frigging Graffiti. Come to terms with Xerox, dammit!! G2 is going to cost you sales!

Tungsten C

confucius @ 4/23/2003 8:48:29 PM #
I would like a 320x480 screen ,virtual grafiti or on screen writing ,wireless like the W,400mh and mp3 no camera and a good sofware bundle.
The price seem ok.

would like to have a "Palm tablet" pda larger screen input by writing on the screen

Just out of speculation

Alpha1220 @ 4/23/2003 10:17:03 PM #
1. Anyone have any sales/future price-point shift predictions for the Tungsten C?

2. Anyone care to estimate what the impact of Palm choosing to go with a mono-jack will be? (in my own opinion, I think its going to be huge ... not to be bitter, but I think Palm alienated a huge potential demographic of T|C buyers (specifically the power user) including me ... they were so close ... arrggh ... but I digress...

RE: Just out of speculation
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:26:52 AM #
>>Anyone care to estimate what the impact of Palm choosing to go with a mono-jack will be?

-- more iPod sales for Apple?

RE: Just out of speculation
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 1:31:51 AM #
my prediction: so far has been 80% correct and palm fanatics hates it. hah.

1. T|C will be a flop. It'll be priced at $399 in 2 months, and $350 after about 4 months. That's about where the price will settle.

2. The impacts? who cares, people already moves on...

RE: Just out of speculation
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 7:41:40 AM #
>>my prediction: so far has been 80% correct and palm fanatics hates it. hah.

-- no, Palm users hate *you*. And if it *does* have such a drop in price, Palm owners will be able to say: "Can your *PPC* do that?" Ha! Ha! and Hah! And it will be *Palm* -- not MS -- that will popularize WiFi.

RE: Just out of speculation
skennedy1217 @ 4/24/2003 8:29:43 AM #
Has anyone ever made the parallel that this divide is similar to the Windows vs. Mac debate? People get so passionate over their OS's. I love my Palm, have considered a PPC more than once, and am delighted by the new releases. Can't we just accept that no one machine is perfect, especially since they're created by humans? Why spin your wheels on things that have no moral value?

_____________________
m100 ==> m500 ==> T|T
RE: Just out of speculation
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 8:41:42 AM #
This isn't about OSes between me and BlueAnon. It is a mikecane vs BlueAnon PIC Death Match.

I like bits of Palm, I like bits of PPC. I have (altogether now, kiddies!) a lowly mono CLIE S320 and am trying to decide what's Next. I keep whipsawing between PalmOS and PPC -- these two new Palms just made it difficult again.

RE: Just out of speculation
Altema @ 4/24/2003 9:18:43 AM #
"but I think Palm alienated a huge potential demographic of T|C buyers (specifically the power user) including me ... they were so close ... arrggh ..."

I agree. So close, yet I'm still debating what to do next. Deal breaker for the T|C: mono audio. Deal breaker for the Z71: good but not spectacular battery life, no wireless, lack of RAM. Possible deal breaker for T|T: Ok battery life, lack of RAM.

If there was a work around or a modification for the T|C I would go that way. As it stands, I'm leaning towards the T|T because I like the form factor and design. Of course, if I catch a hint of the T|T2 on the horizon...

RE: Just out of speculation
Alpha1220 @ 4/24/2003 9:33:36 AM #
Wow. For a second there, I thought this was about people attempting to post relevant answers to a question that I haven't been able to find much info on. My silly mistake: I forgot that PIC is for deathmatches and OS battles and not answering questions that are actually asked.

RE: Just out of speculation
scouter075 @ 4/24/2003 9:44:22 AM #
I agree that we'll see price drops in the C withing 3 months.

The mono jack killed it for me. I've greatly enjoyed using Pocket Tunes on my T/T, especially when I fly. I won't get the T/C because there's no stereo.


Dennis G. Esler
scouter075@attbi.com

RE: Just out of speculation
skennedy1217 @ 4/24/2003 10:04:43 AM #
Feeling the same way. Because of the stereo out issue, I'm not going to upgrade at this time. I'll stick with my T|T and get an SD Wi-Fi card (when they finally come out). I'm not sure how the T|T's battery would hold up to that, but there is also the power pack that's coming out from Palm, too. It's not that the T|T is the best audio player out there...but mono just won't cut it. However, if I did not already have my T|T I'd probably buy the T|C and look for some kind of mono to stereo adapter plug.

_____________________
m100 ==> m500 ==> T|T
RE: Just out of speculation
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 10:50:22 AM #
----- Palm owners will be able to say: "Can your *PPC* do that?"

do what? play "let's try ripping off customer with under featured product"?

------Ha! Ha! and Hah! And it will be *Palm* -- not MS -- that will popularize WiFi.

yeah just like Palm inc. popularizes SD peripherals and Bluetooth, how impressive. There is no SD/IO card currently running exclusively on Palm. The Toshiba BT and Veo SD are practically a flop and has to be given away.

WiFi on Palm? how exciting, almost as silly as the idea of 'multimedia' on Palm. (say can you do multimedia on WiFi with palm?... not)

And whatever happen to the talk about every Palm model in the future will have wireless capability. (where is that yankersky dude anyway?)

RE: Just out of speculation
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:26:27 PM #
The dope's name was Yankowski -- and he's probably pulling the gold thread out of his IPO suit to bring to the hock shop. Or at least that's what I *hope* he's doing.

RE: Just out of speculation
Altema @ 4/25/2003 12:47:34 PM #
"WiFi on Palm? how exciting, almost as silly as the idea of 'multimedia' on Palm. (say can you do multimedia on WiFi with palm?... not)"

Streaming video. On my desk. On a lowly Palm Dragonball device. Right now.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "Multimedia"? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, as I have both PPC and Palm with the cradles side by side, but my opinion of what constitutes multimedia may differ slightly from yours. What is your viewpoint?


RE: Just out of speculation
BlueAnon @ 4/25/2003 1:38:03 PM #
you can stream video on a dragonball Palm model? (It doesn't even have speaker to play audio)

try again.

multimedia: not just .mp3 and kinoma. (tho' that alone is hard to do consistently across all Palm models already)

RE: Just out of speculation
Altema @ 4/25/2003 2:13:37 PM #
multimedia
n : transmission that combine media of communication (text and graphics and sound etc.)

Does not fit your definition, which seems to be "mp3 and mpeg".

Now, everyone here knows that the only valid codec in out universe is from the Motion Picture Entertainment Group. AVI is invalid. MOV is invalid. Divx is not valid. TM is not valid. KP is not valid. Therefore, if anyone has a handheld and they are watcing moving pictures, it is not real unless the file has an mpg or mpeg file extension.

It is painfully clear that you have never even used a Palm, let alone owned one.

Lets see now, the list of PPC devices which can do full motion video in ANY format at greater than 100Fps includes: ___________


Short list, huh?

RE: Just out of speculation
mikecane @ 4/25/2003 8:51:04 PM #
>>Lets see now, the list of PPC devices which can do full motion video in ANY format at greater than 100Fps includes: ___________

-- maybe so, but who *wants* >100fps?! You're talking TB (terrabytes, not the lung ailment!) for movies!

RE: Just out of speculation
BlueAnon @ 4/26/2003 4:54:38 PM #
sure, post Cinepak codec to PPC platform, I'll give you 200fps without you asking for it. (I doubt this will happen tho' since nobody will pay money for such lousy codec performance)

come on mister video engineer, you know very well what's the difference between .mpeg fps and cinepak fps.

RE: Just out of speculation
Zire71Fan @ 7/14/2003 11:07:33 AM #
You are all wrong. A Palm Device is not designed to replace anything like your camera or your TV. For music and for small videos, the Palm is truely a wonderfull machine. I have a Zire 71, and know that the camera built is not for high end images. I have my Kodak 4330 for that. As for pocket PC users out there, even if you can play movies on it, the thing doesn't even fit in your pocket as much as a palm does.

virtual graffiti vs Jot or G2

palmgator @ 4/23/2003 10:16:46 PM #
I use Jot all day long to work on my Palm V, Im wanting to upgrade to a TT, But, am not sure if I understand all the comments I am reading about the lack of on screen writing on the TT. IE no virtual graffiti.

two questions

1.
I guess I really dont understand what Virtual graffiti is, so can someone please explain,
2.
Can I load jot onto the TT, or do I have to wait for a 5.2 device with G2.


Also as a side note. I teach palm classes to real estate professionals,it's alot of fun making people more productive. i tell them all to check out PIC because I feel it is the best source of info on all things palm.

I really appreciate the excellent info the regular posters provide.

Always readin' seldom postin'....



Training sales and real estate professionals on effective palm use!

RE: virtual graffiti vs Jot or G2
GWD @ 4/23/2003 11:02:20 PM #
If you are a registered Jot user, email CIC and they can send you the OS5 upgrade, it works great.

Nino 310, Nino 319, Nino 510, (saw the light), IIIxe, IIIc, M105, Vx, M505, Tungsten T
RE: virtual graffiti vs Jot or G2
LiveFaith @ 4/24/2003 12:48:29 AM #
Here is what people are begging for in "Virtual Grafitti". The foolishness of wasted real estate is replaced with useable screen area for infinite uses. "Grafitti area" if needed would be virtual ... ie pop-up/disappearing. Check out this crude pic & imagine ebooks, hanwritten notes, pictures, spreadsheets etc etc ...

http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/71vg.jpg


Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: virtual graffiti vs Jot or G2
palmgator @ 4/24/2003 2:28:49 PM #
Thanks guys , I get it

Training sales and real estate professionals on effective palm use!

Does the Tungsten C come with bluetooth?

lagcisco @ 4/23/2003 10:25:44 PM #
does the Tungsten C come with bluetooth? Ive seen palms site and couldnt find any mention of it.. damm, and i just got a t68i just so i can use bluetooth with the TC.. i guess i should have waited, now im stuck between a $300 TT or $500 TC,
TC has wifi (which i dont really need all too much anyways..)
TC has transflective screen and thumbard

guess i could get a TC+bluetooth card.. that sucks though.

RE: Does the Tungsten C come with bluetooth?
hkklife @ 4/23/2003 11:08:05 PM #
Ummm, not to be rude or anyhthing, but this is about the umpteenth time this has been covered in the past day or so--both on the news page and in the forums. The current Palm Bluetooth card will not work on any OS5 handheld---not necessary with T|T, and doesn't work (verified) on Zire 71 and T|C. Remember, the T|W runs OS 4, so it can handle the Bluetooth card. Now, many months back, Toshiba (I think) announced a new SDIO BT card that would not stick out as much as the current model. Here's hoping that thing sees the light of day pretty soon and, in the process, Palm decides to refine the BT capabilities of OS5 and add compatability across the board. I really hope that Palm doesn't decide to let BT fade away in favor of wi-fi. Something tells me that the whole T|T "experiment" (both the formfactor and BT) didn't do too well for Palm and they might be quick to put both of them out to pasture, at least for the time being.

Just give me "The Connected Palm"

jonr @ 4/23/2003 10:57:47 PM #
In this order:
1. GPRS/GSM
2. WiFi
3. Bluetooth
1 & 2 would be nice. WiFi default, switchable to GPRS when not available.
Oh, and have it ARM-based. Why the heck is the Tungsten W still using Dragonball?

RE: Just give me
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 12:40:21 AM #
A connected organizer is still an organizer.
RE: Just give me
Altema @ 4/24/2003 9:09:44 AM #
A connected PPC is still an organizer. ;)

RE: Just give me
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:42:05 PM #
When a Palm owner switches to PPC and moves his Memos into Notes, he loses *all* Categories. Thus a connected PPC is also a *dis*organizer.

RE: Just give me
robrecht @ 4/24/2003 1:14:03 PM #
mike, you're funny

Thanks, robrecht
RE: Just give me
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 1:16:37 PM #
You know what's weird? I was at CUSA playing with the Z71 and this PPC owner comes in and starts ragging on the Palms, blah blah blah. His PPC is sooo powerful and can do sooo much more. Well, there was a Spiderman movie trailer on one of the CUSA demo model PPCs -- and *I*, a Palm user!, had to show *him* how to copy it onto his SD! This isn't the first time this has happened, either! I've come across PPCers who don't even know how to Beam! The bigger their mouths, the smaller their brains, and the less they actually know how to *use* their PPCs...

RE: Just give me
JKingGrim @ 4/24/2003 4:07:48 PM #
After a fun day of attempting to brag, the wide mouthed PPC user goes home and continues to read the PPC manual.

RE: Just give me
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:33:26 PM #
Why should they have manuals?! Aren't they intuitive? (evil cackling!)

RE: Just give me
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 8:27:49 PM #
hey stop bitching, or I'll make you transfer .mpeg files and watch the spiderman trailer with Zire 71. (try that with your palm)
RE: Just give me
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 9:18:19 PM #
Oh, man. Like Spiderman is just soooo 2002.

RE: Just give me
Zire71Fan @ 7/14/2003 11:17:28 AM #
Haven't you people learned anything. If you want to watch movies away from home get a laptop or portable DVD. The Z71 is a perfect MP3 Player/Organizer/Camera and still fits in your pocket better than PPC. Cheaper too.

Photo + Addressbook integration / barcode interpreter?

bbear @ 4/24/2003 5:58:30 AM #
I've read through all the comments and am astonished that no one has asked the question whether the Zire71 will let you take pictures and immediately drop it into a new contact card. THAT, sirs, will be the killer app for this device... for those of us who have trouble remembering names. Nothing in the literature seems to support that this is integrated with the address book. Someone test that out for us please?

The second killer app, would be for someone to figure out a barcode interpreter. I've seen it done with those Korean CDMA 2000 / EVDO cellphones with cameras built in. You take a picture of a barcode in a catalog and then it goes ahead and brings up an order page. Gimmicky now, but a lot of potential... imagine reading about a conference in Wired magazine, then pointing your Zire71 (or decendant of it) at a code patch on the page and have it drop a calendar event as well as a todo item with the URL?

This can be what that silly "cue cat" never could be.

RE: Photo + Addressbook integration / barcode interpreter?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 7:45:14 AM #
No review has yet mentioned the range of the camera -- ie, how *close* an object can be. Now that Palms use ARMs, built-in OCR is a possibility!

RE: Photo + Addressbook integration / barcode interpreter?
madhatter @ 4/24/2003 10:40:14 AM #
"No review has yet mentioned the range of the camera -- ie, how *close* an object can be. Now that Palms use ARMs, built-in OCR is a possibility!"

I just took a photo of my coffee cup from about 3" away and it looked great.


A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: Photo + Addressbook integration / barcode interpreter?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:27:41 PM #
I've played with two demo units at two different stores. You can get quite close to text -- but having a rock-steady hand when you hit that shutter and holding still -- well, that's a task not easily mastered.

RE: Photo + Addressbook integration / barcode interpreter?
cbowers @ 4/25/2003 9:26:08 PM #
"I've read through all the comments and am astonished that no one has asked the question whether the Zire71 will let you take pictures and immediately drop it into a new contact card."

Like on Sony Clie's you mean. Don't think it's in the ROM, but nothing stopping a 3rd party addressbook replacement from doing it.

"The second killer app, would be for someone to figure out a barcode interpreter... This can be what that silly "cue cat" never could be."

Maybe so. barcoding is certainly handy, albeit expensive currently. I use a module in the CF slot of my PDA for that, and it's very useful. An image interpreter app is an interesting approach of getting that a cheaper process. It's about the first thing anyone's mentioned that makes a built in camera seem useful to me.

compared to TG50

lagcisco @ 4/24/2003 9:04:10 AM #
how does the sony TG50 compare to the Tungsten C performance wise?

RE: compared to TG50
hotpaw4 @ 4/24/2003 1:37:57 PM #
The Zire 71 benchmarks scores are lower than the TG50 on average (but it's still faster at a few tasks). The Tungsten C 400 MHz XScale CPU clearly performs around 2X faster than the 200 MHz XScale in the TG50, sometime more.
RE: compared to TG50
agchang @ 4/24/2003 4:12:05 PM #
The Tungsten C may be faster than 2X as compared to the Sony TG50. The Tungsten C uses the latest Intel XScale 400MHz with the 200MHz bus (and lower power consumption). If the TG50 uses the newer XScale 200MHz processor with the 200MHz bus, then 2X. Otherwise, if the TG50 uses the older XScale 200MHz with the 100MHz bus, more than 2X.

299 Comments

mikecane @ 4/24/2003 9:07:01 AM #
The next post will be *300* (unless someone slips in ahead of this, inw which case it's Me!Me!Me!). Is this one of the longest Comments collections or what?

RE: 299 Comments
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 9:08:36 AM #
Number 300 was me. Someone got in a LEAP query in the WiFi section. I will take this honor with all the sobriety it is due...

RE: 299 Comments
Altema @ 4/24/2003 9:13:26 AM #
I take my hat off to you Mike! Oops, no hat. Wait, hold on while I peel my scalp off...

RE: 299 Comments
ozz @ 4/24/2003 10:10:24 AM #
The real question is, Mike, whether Blueanon will congratulate you on being 300! I doubt it. :-)

RE: 299 Comments
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:29:09 PM #
Altema: That was great! Hah!

RE: 299 Comments
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 3:04:17 PM #
Congratulation mike. 300 posts and POS still sucks toes. :P
RE: 299 Comments
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:34:28 PM #
Just as long as they're not *your* toes. Oh, but I forgot. You lost them a while back to gangrene, didn't you? Told you not to trust Bill Gates's recipe for bathtub gin!

RE: 299 Comments
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 7:28:35 PM #
You seems to have some experiance .... ewww...
RE: 299 Comments
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 7:35:10 PM #
Stinkin from drinkin again, are ya? Maybe we'll be lucky this time: they'll take your fingers!

Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo

upsidedown @ 4/24/2003 10:35:43 AM #
Could someone please explain if it is POSSIBLE for stereo output from the Tungsten C. I understand that the speaker is mono, and the headphone jack is mono....so it seems that there is no way to get stereo out.

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:39:24 PM #
I'd be surprised if there was any provision for handling stereo sound in the circuitry. It'd make no sense to chop it off at the earphone jack. Chalk it up to Yet Another Palm Blunder. Eejits!

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
hotpaw4 @ 4/24/2003 1:43:36 PM #
Are there any standard and commonly used jacks that support both stereo out and microphone input? The microphone input is an important feature for VOIP and high quality audio recording.
RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
BlueAnon @ 4/24/2003 2:25:01 PM #
"high quality audio recording"? oh jees...the damend thing only has 51MB, how much high quality audio recording can it handle with that much space? 1.5 second worth of audio maybe?

the biggest SD help, but no pro audio recording is going to use an equipment like T|C.

It's Palm Inc botching the model by trying to cut corners, the usual Zen thing to do. There is no fancy explanation like "high quality audio recording"

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
jamesgjr @ 4/24/2003 2:48:29 PM #
Really disappointing. Actually ordered a C assuming it was stereo and would provide mp3 playback... Back to staples it ges...( unless someone can engineer a work around for the mono plug!

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
hotpaw4 @ 4/24/2003 4:09:59 PM #
> "high quality audio recording"

well certainly not pro quality, but certainly much much better than the TT built-in mike. Maybe good enough for some of the IBM voice recognition software. And (near) lossless compression over IP can handle a lot more data than any SD card.

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
jamesgjr @ 4/24/2003 4:25:45 PM #
Heres the final word from Palm Knowledgebase on the issue:


Information on the Headphone Jack on your Palm™ Tungsten™ C handheld


The headphone jack in your Palm™ Tungsten™ C handheld is a 2.5mm mono headphone jack. Mono means one channel of sound. Stereo sound consists of two channels (left and right). In order to hear sound from both speakers in mono sound you must purchase a compatible 2.5mm mono to stereo adapter.


RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
rmwilk @ 4/24/2003 4:36:57 PM #
Ok. Palm has conflicting information on it's website.
http://www.palm.com/products/family.epl#footnotes shows that the Headphone jack is Stereo. What's up?

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
laservisuals @ 4/25/2003 6:49:25 AM #
Yep... Palm website says Stereo Headphones
Paging Michael Mace...
mikecane @ 4/26/2003 11:45:49 AM #
Where's Michael Mace to jump in here and clear up this confusion?

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
BlueAnon @ 4/26/2003 4:51:59 PM #
I'll give you his answer: " I don't work for Palm Inc. I work for palmsource"
RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
mikecane @ 4/27/2003 2:39:02 PM #
Break out the smelling salts! BlueAnon actually gave a *sensible* reply!

RE: Tungsten C - Mono or Stereo
BlueAnon @ 4/27/2003 3:17:46 PM #
I always give sensible answer, it's just that palmies don't see it till later on.

you know how it goes mike. :D

From Compusa only $9,999.99

davidkshepherd @ 4/24/2003 10:48:32 AM #
Not sure why, but Compusa has this item for only $9,999.99. Not sure what's happening over there. See the link here http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=302188&pfp=SEARCH

RE: From Compusa only $9,999.99
ozz @ 4/24/2003 11:04:11 AM #
It says $499.99

RE: From Compusa only $9,999.99
davidkshepherd @ 4/24/2003 11:07:57 PM #
Price was back to $499 about an hour later and Out-of-Stock changed to In-Stock! Went and bought one (Tysons Compusa). I had to convince the store employees that they had some. With some prodding, I was able to get one. Yayy!

Universal Connector, really universal??

alexito @ 4/24/2003 11:01:07 AM #
Would it works with every pheriperal??

Will the Z71 make use of my Xircom WLAN sleed??

If it does I've find the perfect palm to replace my m130, of course when I get the cash.

Technology moves faster than you can afford... at least for me.

RE: Universal Connector, really universal??
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 12:30:29 PM #
The UC may be U -- but its position in relation to a unit's thickness might make a sled obsolete. You'd have to take your sled to a store and try it. But remember: If You Break It, You Buy It!

RE: Universal Connector, really universal??
bcombee @ 4/24/2003 2:37:53 PM #
If a device uses just the UC connector and the designated flat area on the back of the device that goes up to the connection holes, then it should be able to physically connect to any UC-using Palm OS device. The UC sleds for the m500/m505, by extending to the top of the device, don't follow this spec.

Being able to connect is only half of the battle too -- you also need to have software support for the device. Due to massive internals changes from OS 4 to OS 5, you now have a situation where a device may connect, but there is no software support. It may not even be possible to write an appropriate driver in OS 5, at least without the help of PalmSource or a licensee.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

RE: Universal Connector, really universal??
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:36:54 PM #
You said a mouthful, re software changes. I tried (OK, admittedly *old* -- but they ran on the TT!) versions of Tealmaster and MiniWrite on a Z71 today -- the unit froze (ie crashed!) and then rebooted. (That was very interesting: NO crash dialog box! How'd Palm *do* that?) So, Palm OS 5.0.2 (is that it?) continues the tradition of narrowing the base of compatible software...

RE: Universal Connector, really universal??
alexito @ 4/24/2003 8:16:45 PM #
This Palm page http://store.palm.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1164335&cp=1308827 says that you can use the Modem that worked with m100 series and so on. I use my Xircom sleed with my m130. I think that Z71 is a very affordable replacement to me, I'm a poor mexican student, no Z71 near here, so would anybody mind to try that for me, I don't want to throw away all my current Palm gadgets.

By the way what is your experience with Palm warranty, my m130 went bad, and has been in service since October, to date, that Palm have traveled more then me in my entire life. Suposedly I'll receive it back this week. Almost 6 mont later!!!! But if the service is that bad, I'll skip Palm ang go for a Kyocera 7135, if I find one here, even if I have to trash all my accesories.

Thanks to everybody in advance, and excuse my spelling/grammar.

Technology moves faster than you can afford... at least for me.

RE: Universal Connector, really universal??
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 9:12:19 PM #
Are you located *in* Mexico? I have no idea what Palm repair service is like in Mexico. Sorry I can't help on the sleds; I don't own any. Anyone else here?

RE: Universal Connector, really universal??
chilimost @ 4/25/2003 11:50:03 AM #
It will not work as there the Xircom utility / drivers do not, and according to Xircom, will not work with OS5.

WiFi range

carioca76 @ 4/24/2003 4:46:09 PM #
I don't know if this has been covered. I'm not going to read the 200 comments posted I missed over the last 15 minutes :)
I just went to compusa. Had a HELPFUL salesperson that actually cared to supply a floor model. Opened a new box & plugged it in. Turned the Tungsten C on. Tapped the screen in the 3 x's it presents you withat the beginning. The next screen had a wifi button, clicked it, it searched for networks, found the linksys at the borders next door through the brick wall way more than 50 feet away connected & went great! It was a little slow but the fact that it connected to a wireless network that far away with everything else that could have messed this up was really cool!
Way to EASY to setup wifi. My 4 year old could've figured out how.
I love sony but ... way to go palm!

RE: WiFi range
Hustleman @ 4/24/2003 5:21:55 PM #
I connected peer-to-peer(T|C to T|C) to my co-workers T|C via 802.11 from over 1000 ft away!!

RE: WiFi range
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 5:55:02 PM #
Everyone has praised setup in comments I've read. But most of the complaints are about the limited range. 1,000 feet? Did an extra zero slip in there?

RE: WiFi range
rlauzon @ 4/29/2003 1:34:40 PM #
I work in a open floor plan (i.e. cubr farm) office. I'm about 300 feet from the access points on my floor and I almost don't get a connection. I have the "Conserve Power" option on.

I'd say that the rumors of "short range" are exaggerated.

Quick questions for Admin.

JKingGrim @ 4/24/2003 6:07:55 PM #
Why is it only possible to see the full comment page after making a post?

Do the same formatting macros in the forums work on the Story discussion?

Thanks.

RE: Quick questions for Admin.
Admin @ 4/24/2003 6:20:56 PM #
I added a link to view all the comments on a single page, when there are multiple pages (it's the link that says ALL). No, the forum codes do not presently work in article comments.

VOIP on T|C?

T|T rocks @ 4/24/2003 8:42:26 PM #
I think the reason the T|C comes with a mono jack and having to use a Nokia like headset to record voice memo is that PALM maybe planning to also inclue Voice over IP support over WIFI networks. Good God!
RE: VOIP on T|C?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 9:13:59 PM #
Yes, I've seen that mentioned somewhere. What's good/bad about that? (This question, mind you, is coming from someone who *despises* cellphones, does not own one, and hopes to *never* own one...)

RE: VOIP on T|C?
io333 @ 4/24/2003 9:49:01 PM #
It means wherever you have WiFi access, you can make free "phone" calls to anyone else who also has a VOIP device. But last time I tried it, it was laggy enough to turn me off. Has that improved at all?

RE: VOIP on T|C?
mikecane @ 4/24/2003 10:10:43 PM #
Aside from PalmOS, I've seen it mentioned as being included in the next rev of PPC (due this Summer). Doesn't this voice traffic clog the net?

RE: VOIP on T|C?
Altema @ 4/25/2003 12:26:03 AM #
Voip is coming. The lag time and traffic issues depend on the network. If you are running 100 users through a closet of hubs, it will probably be pretty bad, as your wireless AP's will be competing through all the traffic on layer 2 devices. Now if your network is running on switches that allow for Vlans (Virtual Local Area Network), then the hardwired Voip phones can be placed on their own Vlan, and Voip traffic is isolated from normal data, except where the Voip data needs to get to another switch or router. The wireless access points are frequently on their own Vlan. Of course, 802.11b AP's communicate with wireless devices at 11Mbps under the best conditions, even if the AP itself is plugged into a 100Mb port on the switch (highly recommended!), so the bandwitdh will be shared among all associated wireless devices... even the guy in the next cubicle who downloads movies during lunch. If you have more than 20 users associated to one AP, then throw in Voip, you will have a bottleneck at the AP. One way to improve performance on a diversity AP is to turn diversity off, and use one antenna for transmit and the other for receive. This will make dead zones worse, coverage less even, and will make managing the channel cells more difficult in a multiple AP environment, but it will improve throughput a little

RE: VOIP on T|C?
Altema @ 4/25/2003 12:52:23 AM #
PS: Anyone notice that the T|W flip cover with the integrated phone mic/speaker also fits the T|C? Not sure if the connector is the same though.

RE: VOIP on T|C?
palmit @ 4/27/2003 12:38:11 AM #
Where did this rumor about VOIP and Palm T/C come from?
Will need QoS on AP to support VOIP over WiFi.


RE: VOIP on T|C?
davidkshepherd @ 4/27/2003 9:34:13 PM #
Please tell me more about the Case with integrated mic and speaker/earphone

RE: VOIP on T|C?
Altema @ 4/28/2003 10:30:14 AM #
It's a flip cover design, similar to the M5xx series. It has the speaker and microphone built into the outside, so you would hold it to your face with the cover closed. A small cable on the top cover plugs into the headphone jack.

Zire 71 : perfect photoblogger

bbear @ 4/25/2003 4:40:31 AM #
Someone better write a shareware program that will allow you to snap a picture, make a few comments on it (or a lot, with a keyboard) and upon hotsync have it automatically upload to a blog of your own choosing.

Is there a board somewhere where we can post shareware wishlists?

B

RE: Zire 71 : perfect photoblogger
mikecane @ 4/25/2003 8:54:13 PM #
That's a bloody brilliant idea. Zireblogging? 71-ing?

*sigh*.. So close..

helf @ 4/25/2003 11:03:35 AM #
If the zire 71 didn't have a camera and instead had a CF slot it would be perfect.. hell, even if it didnt have either.. would be like the size of my m505..*sigh*..

Guess I'll keep dreaming...

RE: *sigh*.. So close..
bob622 @ 4/25/2003 11:13:56 AM #
I switched from a Palm m515 to a Zire 71. If you have an m500 series case, the Zire 71 won't fit in it because the shape is slightly different, but the overall size when compared to the m515 is almost exactly the same - I think the Zire 71 is 0.3 oz heavier. I think the case that comes with the Zire 71 will be fine (unlike the m515 flip cover that came with it), but I did notice that the first few times putting the Zire 71 into its case, the PDA turned itself on because one of the buttons at the bottom got pushed.
RE: *sigh*.. So close..
helf @ 4/25/2003 11:40:11 AM #
Theres several apps that you can put on the z71 to disable the app buttons..

RE: *sigh*.. So close..
bob622 @ 4/25/2003 4:02:15 PM #
Which one would you recommend that is free and works on OS 5 (not a hack)?

Tungsten C impressions

dwang @ 4/25/2003 12:14:27 PM #
Picked up a tungsten C last night at Circuit City.

I think the hardware is pretty close to everything I want.

The WIFI works great. No problems accessing the net from anywhere in my house and very easy to setup. The screen is gorgeous, the battery lasts a long time, and I like the thumbpad. I don't really care about mp3's so the mono headphone jack doesn't bother me.

However, I'm thinking of returning it because I find it almost impossible to surf the web on such a small screen. The web browser is pretty nice and I'm able to goto almost any site I want, but the screen is just too small to make surfing fun. What the web software really needs is the ability to scale up to 640x640 resolution or something close to that. 320x320 is just too small. I also don't care for the fact that it doesn't support popups, meaning if I click on a link that opens another window, it doesn't work.

Dave

RE: Tungsten C impressions
krugorg @ 4/25/2003 5:28:54 PM #
Dave, thanks for the initial feedback on the C.

Anyone know what the included flip cover is like? Is it similar to the see-through plastic versions that came with the T and W (I think)?

What are your thoughts on using the C one-handed?

RE: Tungsten C impressions
dwang @ 4/25/2003 6:34:39 PM #
The cover is similar to that of the palm V.

I've been using it with 2 hands. I don't think you exclusively use it with one hand.

The address book has a one handed look up feature though that uses the joypad.

dave

RE: Tungsten C impressions
mikecane @ 4/25/2003 8:58:02 PM #
>>>the screen is just too small to make surfing fun. What the web software really needs is the ability to scale up to 640x640 resolution or something close to that. 320x320 is just too small. I also don't care for the fact that it doesn't support popups, meaning if I click on a link that opens another window, it doesn't work.

-- do you still have it? What happens if you go to http://www.treocentral.com, scroll down to Links (lower right side of screen), click on Links, and then click on the links on that next page? Each link is suppose to open in a new window -- does it on the TungC?

RE: Tungsten C impressions
dwang @ 4/26/2003 12:10:37 PM #
No it doesn't.

Here's a review of netfront 3.0 for the PPC from geek.com. It basically has everything I want in a browser: tabbed browing, scale to fit, and wraparound content. Since the palm web browser is based on a version of netfront, I'm hoping Palm will incorporate these features in the next release. Hopefully soon.

http://tinyurl.com/adl2

Dave

RE: Tungsten C impressions
mikecane @ 4/26/2003 12:31:10 PM #
I'm not sure that the browser Palm *SG* is using is the one that *PalmSource* is offering. The PalmSource one is based on NetFront.

Too bad about the window issue...

Have fun with these:

http://www.palmzone.net/mobile/mobileweb.htm

http://www.cantoni.org/palm/links.html

http://www.evmo.com/palm

http://www.evmo.com/mobile

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~blumax/plinkit/fulllist.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/pda

RE: Tungsten C impressions
mikecane @ 4/26/2003 12:33:52 PM #
-- oops! SCRATCH evmo.com/mobile -- that's the POCKET PC version (blushing!).

RE: Tungsten C impressions
rd904 @ 4/29/2003 9:27:59 PM #
Just picked one up at Circuit City. I've been waiting for a faster palm that I could load 20-30 medical books on without having to wait a minute or so while they were pulled off of my card. Only problem is that programs like 5MCC, Harrison's, & Merck Manual have fatal errors when you pull them up using handheldmed's reader. I've just begun to attempt loading my old software and having major compatibility issues. anyone else with software issues? haven't tried WiFi yet,
RE: Tungsten C impressions
rd904 @ 5/1/2003 3:25:05 PM #
I must retract my statement concerning compatibility issues. I have since used the upgraded reader and have had no problems. In fact, I have about 30Mb full and still running very fast. I almost can't believe how much faster Tungsten C is than then the m500. I guess 33 to 400 does make a difference.
RE: Tungsten C impressions
arielb @ 5/2/2003 3:54:19 PM #
dwang you must be the only person on the internet that actually wants popups :)

RE: Tungsten C impressions
sam_in_silver @ 6/23/2003 10:00:10 PM #
I have used Palms since the Rochwell Professional. I had the iiiX, iiiXE, iiiC,m505, m515 and now the Tungsten C. I also have a Samsung phone with a nice PDA in it.

What I like about the C: it has speed, its capacity, I can play moves, and play old songs and it synchs fast and doesnt hang during the synch. The screen is great.

What I dont like about the C:

I have tried three different hot synch cradles and it wobbles on all of them, and if I touch it during a synch it can abort the hot sync.

The getting rid of the reserved graffiti area is a disaster, not only because grafitti 2 uses timing to decide if you are typing OR selecting text, but also it lost the soft buttons, for example the calculator. Often when typing text, if I am too slow it stops being in text mode and assumes I want to block select text, and if I dont catch it, my next stroke deletes the selected data. Even using TEALSCRIPT doesnt solve that problem. TEALSCRIPT is better in that I can use grafitti-1, but it still has the timing problem.

I find the next rown from the bottom up, of hard buttons, poorly designed.

And HOME being on the far right of that 2nd row when it was top left of the soft buttons is a constant problem for me. Remember I also have graffiti-1 phone/pda.

The keyboard is a pain, I am used to the two way pager from motorola, its miniature keyboard is usable, teh palm one I only use when I am totally frustrated with grafitt-2 and trying to enter a special character. Of course, finding special characters opn that keyboard is not easy either.

Since I need glasses to read, the keyboard is useless to me without my glasses.

On the calendar. scrolling through the days is not compatible with earlier palms. Left and right toggle works, but up/down does not move the day, whereas that was the norm on earlier palms.

Overall impression: the Tungsten C is an amazing performer with poor ergonomics. I didn't get the other Tungsten with the sliding cover that covers the grafitti area because I was worried it wouldnt last. I would rather have that than the abortion graffiti-2 is when accompanied by the is-it-text-or-is-it-block-select-mode timing issue. At least offer me graffiti-1 as an option and some other method of telling it when I am block select mode. Lots of incompatible changes, too many for me.

Simon


RE: Tungsten C impressions
dgeethom @ 8/5/2003 7:49:14 PM #
did you ever get any trouble with avantgo channel?
I had to bring my TungC to the shop cos it would just crash and never wake up...
On my second TungC, I didn't install any software and I am doing fine. I think the AvantGo soft was a beta when I charged it, is it working now?

Also, di I dream or did I see somewhere I could Sych using WiFi?

cheers

Zire 71 is THICK. :(

JonAcheson @ 4/25/2003 1:11:24 PM #
I saw the device in person last night. It's much thicker in person than it looks in pictures. Not terribly heavy, but thick (0.7 inches).

After you put it in a case, which you have to since the screen isn't covered, it's going to go from 0.7 to at least 0.9 inches thick. That's a show stopper for me, unfortunately.

They probably should have lost the camera. Losing the slider should have shaved off 0.2 inches easily, and made a flip-cover possible.

Aside from that, I didn't really care for the joystick, but it probably wouldn't have been a show-stopper. I do prefer the pad on the Tungstens.

Unfortunately, the display model was out of power, so I couldn't see the screen or OS. If it's a better screen than the TT, it must be nice indeed.

Jon Acheson


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

Flash for Zire 71?

RhinoSteve @ 4/25/2003 7:32:59 PM #
Ok, well the camera is cute but no flash! Now here it an intersting third party opportunity. Put together an SD card that has a flash on it for the camera. It would fit on the SD slot right next to the lens. Question is can you get that precise timing between the CCD capture and the flash going off> Hmmm ... maybe.
RE: Flash for Zire 71?
I.M Anonymous @ 4/26/2003 2:34:32 PM #
Maybe, but it would be a serious battery drain! What's next, an SD flashlight?

RE: Flash for Zire 71?
RhinoSteve @ 4/27/2003 5:24:03 AM #
Not really. A good flash design these days are not that bad on the power hit level. It is not just the circuits and the optical materials. Anyhow, it is definately not a mega-pixel camera replacement but good "on the go" cam for simple pic taking for notation and reference.

Gave up on Palm but I'm back now baby!!!

rexracer @ 4/28/2003 11:43:42 AM #
OK, I just couldn't justify getting a m515 so I stuck with my Palm III. Then I just gave up and went *shudder* paper. Walked into CompUSA...saw the Zire 71...saw the price. Bam, new Zire 71 user. So far the unit's great, will fit into my old Franklin-Covey binder and I'm set.

Love the screen, one of the reasons I was holding back on the IIIc and m515. I haven't played with the camera extensivly but looks good so far. Hate G2 and Xerox but I think I'll survive with G2. G2 is much better than the thumb-board. I had a BlackBerry for a while and I'm much more productive with Graffitti. We also had a lot of thumb wheels go bad so I think the Z71 format is better.



RE: Gave up on Palm but I'm back now baby!!!
mikecane @ 4/28/2003 8:19:50 PM #
People are recommending TealScript @ http://www.tealpoint.com -- it allows you to define letters as Classic Graffiti characters, not this G2 nonsense.

RE: Gave up on Palm but I'm back now baby!!!
koolrain @ 5/1/2003 10:12:11 PM #
Hey Mike,

What do you think of Newpen?

RE: Gave up on Palm but I'm back now baby!!!
mikecane @ 5/4/2003 3:14:38 PM #
I don't think I've heard of it.

noisy digitizer?

day @ 4/30/2003 2:25:11 AM #
I bought the T|C last night. So far I love it. However, I've noticed that if I disable sounds I hear a "popping" sound coming from the speaker whenever I touch the screen with the stylis. Not all the time, maybe 25% of the time when I first touch it. My guess is that it's interference from the digitizer. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I being too nick picky? :)
RE: noisy digitizer?
rd904 @ 4/30/2003 3:26:22 PM #
getting that same pop only when fatal error message appears secondary to incompatible applications when I tap on that application
RE: noisy digitizer?
ecornelissen @ 5/5/2003 7:38:30 PM #
I contacted Palm on the popping noise and they say it is a Palm OS defect, not a hardware defect, and that their engineers are currently looking into it. We'll see - they didn't give me an ETA.
RE: noisy digitizer?
smartel @ 8/10/2003 6:48:59 PM #
Got the same problem here. Never done that for the last 4 months, now it does it everytime I turn it on.

Zire 71 Voice recorder ??

Mangosteen @ 5/1/2003 3:25:43 AM #
Has anyone come up with a way to record voice with the Z71 ? Same as with the Tungsten T?


Calculator button on Tungsten C?

skytraveler @ 5/4/2003 5:17:53 AM #
I noticed they replaced most of the silk screen buttons with keyboard buttons. I didn't see a button for the calculator silk screen button. How do we access the calculator on this model?

The SkyTraveler

POS 5.2 STILL lacks...

mikecane @ 5/4/2003 3:11:17 PM #
...a QUICK way to jump to the TOP and BOTTOM of a full Memo. Hey Mace, when will they bother to put this in?! It'sespecially needed now because the behavior of the Memo Pad is being changed by licensees -- used to be you could open one, scroll to its bottom, and keep going to to the NEXT Memo. Or open say, Memo 4, and hit the Up button to quickly get to the *bottom* of Memo 3. NO LONGER!! Don't you guys ever USE your own products -- or EVER *FILL* a Memo?!

Jeff Kirvin reviews the Zire 71

mikecane @ 5/5/2003 7:02:27 AM #
http://www.writingonyourpalm.net -- it'll be up sometime today (Monday, May 5). Worth reading. He's been championing Pocket PC. So what will he say about the Zire 71?! Go see!

When Will We See A T|T OS Upgrade?

nullmodem @ 5/6/2003 5:10:25 PM #
With both of these new handhelds sporting OS 5.2, that makes us ol' T|T owners wonder when Palm is going to get around to releasing an upgrade for the Tungsten|T.

Considering the MASSIVE list of bug-fixes contained in 5.2, which you can read at:

http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/palmos50/os52overview.html

I don't think it's much to ask that Palm release an update ASAP, simply for usability. Any thoughts anyone? Does anyone know how they have released OS updates historically? How long after a product with the new OS, etc?

-nullmodem

Zire71 cannot recognize Panasonic 128MB SD Card!?

mr_rice @ 5/13/2003 10:12:44 PM #
O, My Zire71 cannot recognize Panasonic's 128MB SD card (RP-SD128BE1A) (It works on PPC, but it is "read only" on my m505).
However, my Zire71 can recognize both THL's 32MB MMC and Panasonic's 16MB SD Card.
Does anyone have the same problem?

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