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    Comments on: Palm Debuts the Zire 71 and Tungsten C HandheldsPalm Solutions Group today debuted two new handhelds, the Zire 71 and Tungsten C. The Zire 71 is a new consumer model with an emphasis on multimedia, featuring a built in digital camera. The Tungsten C is aimed a Corporate Campuses and power users, with built in WiFi wireless, a 400mhz Intel XScale Processor and 64 MB of RAM.
Detailed Comment View (477 Total Comments)
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PIC is not responsible for them in any way. login or register for free in order to post comments.  RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
Best Buy has been selling Tungsten T for $349 for quite awhile now. The local best buy is not getting anymore of them. This gives me the feeling Tungsten T is gonna be replaced soon. MAkes me wonder if Tungsten C is teh replacement or if there is another version of the Tungsten T coming. ------------------------------------------------------- currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue. RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 1:32:03 AM #
The M515 is a dead-end product. I'm fairly certain Palm will kill it within the next 30-60 days. RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the re
The m515 is still thinner and lighter than any of the new units, and seems to have better battery life than the TT or Z71. But there does seem to be a price conflict between it and the Z71. RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
"well it's official. i'm also quite surprised that the T|T is still $399 on the site and the m515 is still $299. if that doesn't change soon, those folks at palm really are nuts." For the M515 maybe, but considering the final release specs for the Z71, I'm even less convinced that the T|T deserves a price drop than I was before. RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
Agree m515 needs to be gone - its just keeping the TT higher priced. The Best Buy near me has TT at $399. When purchased Best Buy mails a $50 gift card. I guess it all works out in the end to $349 but I don't like the gimmick. Z71... That reminds me of the performance package on an 84 Corvette. Rough Riding but loads of fun. Keep the m515, just drop the price.
While all of the new units are very trick, there is still a need for a decent, small, PDA, which should be more moderately prices. The m130 doesn't fit I have no idea why both it and the T are priced so high, but they need a price reduction. RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
I agree. They should move the original Zire's price down to $79 or so, and release (essentially) the m125 with the latest OS 4 rev onboard in the Zire's formfactor. Of course, a backlight and a full set of hardware buttons would be necessary. If they could cram on a 5-way mini joystick from the Zire 71, it'd be a perfect unit to release at $125 now and then have down to $100 by Christmas. It's a shame such a device could not have been out right now to catch a lot of the "Dad'n Grad" purchasers out there. At the very least, Palm should slash prices drastically on the last of the m500's and m125's. Otherwise, today is quit a good day indeed for the Palm world! I just am holding out for a refreshed T|T with a backlit Graffiti area. RE: it's for real folks, but what about the prices of the rest?
Or even a virtual graffiti ;)
Could it be!?!? The return of Fzara2000!? Nah. I just wanted to have a nice bash. ;)
 No DSP on Zire 71...
I was expecting a DSP on Zire 71 (based on previous info), to handle the multimedia load. But it seems that the processor is OMAP310, which has only the ARM core. The MP3 playback will probably not be as smooth as done through a DSP (i.e. like in Clie), but I hope it is acceptable. Probably just a tradeoff to keep the price low... RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Plus the C5xx DSP on the OMAP1510 seemed to only be used in the voice recorder on the TT, and for that low pass filter which the latest TT sound patch essentially removed. But the ARM9 multiplier turns out to be plenty fast for FFT's and many types of digital filters. Also the Zire 71 has no microphone or line input. Zire 71: NO Wireless Connectivity!?
Review: Palm Zire 71 "Conclusion: At $299, the Zire 71 is stacked against Sony's CLIE PEG-SJ33 handheld. For the first time that we can recall, at a given price point Palm beats Sony in both feature set and design and integration. The Zire 71 is an excellent device. We're disappointed by the lack of Bluetooth poor stylus, and pointing stick Navigator, but the good camera, mouth-watering screen, and excellent software integration win us over. The Zire 71 is now the device to beat in the mid-range market. -What's positive: Superb screen, good camera, good software integration -What's negative: Plastic stylus, pointing-stick Navigator, no Bluetooth or high-powered IR 5 out of 6" http://www.infosync.no/system/print/index.php?id=3460 Brighthand Reviews the Palm Zire 71: "The Palm Zire 71 is a remarkable mid-range handheld that combines style and functionality, while remaining true to Palm's "pocketable, easy-to-use, long battery life" philosophy. Its only shortcoming is its lack of integrated wireless, which we hope can be somewhat overcome in the near future with support for Secure Digital Bluetooth and Wi-Fi cards." Brighthands Preliminary Review of the Palm Tungsten C: "....the Tungsten C looks like a very impressive device. When I first heard hints Palm was putting together a model with built-in Wi-Fi and a 400 MHz processor, I expected it to cost at least $600. Palm really surprised me by pricing it at $500. That puts it $100 less than the Toshiba e750, which has a roughly similar feature set. This device could win Palm not only sales among power users but among large corporate clients as well." For the business user, Palm has upped the ante with the fastest processor ever in a Palm OS handheld. The Tungsten C is backed by an Intel XScale processor running at 400 MHz, twice the speed of any Palm OS handheld to date, and offers 64 MB of RAM, four times that of any other shipping Palm OS handheld. (The Garmin iQue 3600 is expected to have 32 MB of RAM, but is not yet available.) It offers the same 5-Way Navigator and thumbboard of the Tungsten W, while keeping almost the exact same size and shape. Although it has no external antenna, the Tungsten C includes an integrated 802.11b "Wi-Fi" radio. In order to provide all-day usage, it also sports the same 1500 mAh battery of the Tungsten W. Although it does not include an MP3 player, it does include a voice recorder, DataViz Documents To Go, a proxy-less web browser, and VPN support." Palms range of WiFi is about 40-50 feet here (compared to all the negative talk about Bluetooth range of 30 feet?????) and am curious about the battery life (the Toshiba e740 runs less then 2 hours).....
RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
"Plus the C5xx DSP on the OMAP1510 seemed to only be used in the voice recorder on the TT" The DSP on the T|T is used for playback of streamed sounds (according to a TI engineer). This should cause some differential in background audio performance. Whether or not the 192K of cache on the 310 will offset that, I don't know, but I can't see it. If PalmSG does an update to the OS and implements it properly, it could be used for both decode and playback of MP3/OGG. Whether they'll do either remains to be seen. RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Don't they both have 192k internal memory? At least, that's what it says on the TI's website: "192-KB of shared internal SRAM - frame buffer" The difference between OMAP310 and 1510 seems to be only in the DSP core... RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
"Don't they both have 192k internal memory? At least, that's what it says on the TI's website: "192-KB of shared internal SRAM - frame buffer" The difference between OMAP310 and 1510 seems to be only in the DSP core..." Yep, I must've missed it this morning because it's not broken out separately like the 310 spec is. RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
OS 5.0 was never meant to support anything beyond ARM v5 codes. The DSP in OMAP1510 is an utter waste of silicon. Z71 using 310 confirms this. RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
>The DSP in OMAP1510 is an utter waste of silicon. Z71 using 310 confirms this. The Z71 doesn't have a voice recorder, a feature which is a requirement of many TT purchasers. RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
I have personally tested MP3 playing on the Zire 71 and it sounds good. (tested without head phones) But I didn't test and see if it would play music in the back ground. I will try it to marrow when I go back to work. I use PocketToons MP3 Player.... RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
Sounds good all the way around! It will play in the background. But will crash if you set over amp. to +3db. But +6db will work(strange). Anyway. It crashes at other times (just some tweaks the programs will have to work on)... But for the most part it works very good! RE: No DSP on Zire 71...Thaddeus Cultt @ 4/25/2003 10:23:39 AM #
I received my Zire 71 as a gift (I actually received an Toshiba e335, but exchanged it for the Zire) and DSP or not, it really sounds great. I haven't had any problems running music in the background while using Wordsmith or iSilo, but that's all I've run it with. I really love this fun little palm.
RE: No DSP on Zire 71...
"OS 5.0 was never meant to support anything beyond ARM v5 codes. The DSP in OMAP1510 is an utter waste of silicon. Z71 using 310 confirms this."
Because Palm's OS 5 release can't deal with a DSP chip (or do decent multitasking), the chip is a "waste of silicon"??? Operating systems are supposed to make hardware accessible to application software. The degree to which Palm OS fails to do that, that's a deficiency in Palm OS, not in the hardware. In fact, this is a perennial problem with Palm OS: every megabyte of memory added, every screen pixel, every flash card, and every piece of audio hardware is a hard-won battle with that OS. Let's hope that OS 6 will be better than this because if it isn't, Palm is history (or at least should be).
Friigin Thumboard
Why can't Palm offer a unit with virtual graffiti? I was really hoping they would offer two versions of the Tungsten C. One with thumboard and one with virtual graffiti. I think if they are gonna go the thumboard route, they need to incorporate a virtual mouse pointer with roller ball. This way you won't need to grab the stylus. RE: Friigin ThumboardToken User @ 4/23/2003 1:57:29 AM #
... and did anyone else notice that, just like the T|W, they have a / but no \. Maybe they'll have to send out a "patch" like Sony 8^) ~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~ RE: Friigin Thumboard
I WANT VIRTUAL GRAFFITI !!! Me too. Lately, they just kick out units with this thum(b) keyboard (or the Zire71 with regular Graffiti area. Take the Tungsten T, replace the sliding mech with a virtual Graffiti (it would be nice to have even a better display, e.g. like Cliés) and off we go. Don't need camera and other gimmicks. But.... ...give us the real estate (screen) we deserve!! and bluetooth for mobile connection. (I don't want to download huge attachements, but just get some plain eMails and eventually some small attachements. This will be perfectly satisfied by bluetooth.) PALM SG, are you listening??? RE: Friigin Thumboard
Does the Tungsten C/Graffiti 2 do the "write in the main screen area" trick that Jot does? I could live with that. BTW, I've used the thumbboard, it's not bad, my only complaint is that the D-pad is a little small. Us fat thumbed will be at a slight disadvantage... RE: Friigin Thumboard
Put me on the virtual graffiti waiting list too. Don't need a camera, don't need WiFi, don't need RE: Vitual Graffitti
I believe if they put vitual graffitti on this unit (eliminating thumb board) that it would be as popular as the V/505/515 model. At least that's what I'm holding out for! RE: Friigin Thumboard
I want V-Graffiti too. My 760 is getting long in the tooth but nothing seams to do anything it can't. The new stuff might do it faster but speed isn't that impotant. Sony or Palm, I couldn't care. Just let me read an ebook on a 320-480 screen. RE: Friigin Thumboarddustbunny44 @ 4/23/2003 1:38:16 PM #
Yes - add my voice to the screen real estate over thumb keyboard crowd. The ideal form factor (this minute) would be that of the garmin ique 3600 - 320x480 and under 5.5 oz - but with selectable 802.11b/bluetooth (both radios onboard and user switches between one/both/none of them) instead of the GPS (though that is tasty too). Major uses would be browser/internet/email, calendar syncing with whatever group calendar you use, and phone/contact interface via bluetooth. Camera, if you want one for occasional use, could be slipped into the SDIO slot or use the one on your phone instead. Yes, give us Graffiti with the thumbboard.
But what is virtual Graffiti? It's often mentioned, but I've seen no definition. (Maybe I have to get up earlier in the day. RE: Friigin ThumboardPurfekshunist @ 4/23/2003 2:08:30 PM #
I keep posting every time there's an opportunity to speak out for a PalmOS unit with virtual graffiti, in the hope that enough support will convince someone at Palm or Sony that it would be worthwhile to make one. Half a clamshell Clie or an m515 with virtual graffiti, and I'm there. Preferably the latter, since I prefer SD over Memory Stick. The bigger screen would be welcome for reading (ebooks and Avantgo) and viewing video. Kinoma Player/Producer is awesome, and supports HiRes+. Even my PPC friends are astonished by the picture clarity. I think if a PalmOS licensee is serious about making an entertainment/multimedia PDA, it has to have a HiRes+ screen and NO thumboard (it's a PDA, not a mini-laptop!). Personally, I don't need a built-in camera. RE: Friigin Thumboard
face it....virtual graffiti is cool, but keyboards are just plain faster if you want to type more than 2 charactors. ------------------- I love my Treo 90 ------------------- RE: Friigin Thumboard
Virtual G is where instead of a static G area, it is an extension of the screen. The graffiti writing space is collapseable. The VG resolution is 320x480. RE: Friigin Thumboard
Virtual Graffitti!!!! I would switch faster than you could say "Thumboard". I was wooed from Palm to PPC by the screens of those devices (I came back due to size and functionality of Palm). A perfect device would have VG, size of the M515, SD and that's it. No bells and whistles, don't need all that. I have a keyboard if I wanna type! Please, VG!!!! RE: Friigin Thumboard
> The VG resolution is 320x480. Bah! I'm holding out for 480x640 virtual graffiti. RE: Friigin Thumboardkillah fury @ 4/23/2003 3:09:02 PM #
i hate the friggin keyboards. i want virtual graffiti too. come on palm / sony! listen to us, dammit! RE: Friigin ThumboardZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 3:50:42 PM #
480X640 Virtual Graffiti? In my mind, one of the biggest failings of the (otherwise excellent) Handera 330 was its 240x320 screen. The screen had 1.5x the horiz. resolution of the standard lo-res screen, as opposed to Sony's, with 2x horiz. res. So, you could either run older apps smaller, or through an odd scaling routine ... AND YOU WANT TO RESURRECT *THAT*?!? 640x960 B) ... RE: Friigin Thumboard
Any developer coding to a specific hi-res screen size, over a full year since Palm's hi-desnsity APIs were available, ought to have their right to use Palm licensed headers, tools, etc. revoked. Torture and other painful punishments ought to be considered as well. RE: Friigin Thumboard
Why not the best of both worlds? For Xmas, I expect to see Canesta LCD keyboard in a propped up Palm. Why would I want a dinky thumbboard? And I can Jot or Virtual Graffiti on the 320x480 screen. I will say that I like the ability to write without looking at the screen that I do with Graffiti. Andy RE: Friigin Thumboard - My April 2003 Dream PDA ;-)jho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 6:50:13 PM #
Tungsten T|Cv (v for virtual grafitti) http://members.cox.net/jerrodh/TungstenCv.jpg
RE: Friigin Thumboard
I'm a big fan of virtual graffiti too -- there's nothing better for reading e-books than having smooth fonts on the extra large/long screen, which you get with 320x480 (so far only available in Sony Clie clamshell devices) RE: Friigin Thumboard
Although I want VG too, but I think it is not gonna happen with Wi-Fi device in business sense. Because I think the main market for Wi-Fi would be corporate not consumer. Thumb keyboard is faster and less learning curve. RE: Friigin Thumboardjho4thclie @ 4/23/2003 7:17:09 PM #
It will happen... as long as consumers keep insisting upon it (as is obviously happening in this thread). -JWH RE: Friigin Thumboard
"It will happen... as long as consumers keep insisting upon it (as is obviously happening in this thread)." I'm not so sure...the management at Palm may be opposed to virtual graffiti if they belive it violates their design/interface philosophies (the "Zen" of palm, if that still exists). I wouldn't put it past them to believe they know better than consumers what is best. RE: Friigin Thumboard
True, there is a smaller learnig curve with the thumboard, but those of us who power use a palm are pretty darn quick with grafitti. I'll never go thumboard. I am too fast with grafitti. I would not mind seeing v-grafitti and dual expansion (one for memory and the other for accessories). RE: Friigin Thumboard
>>Any developer coding to a specific hi-res screen size, over a full year since Palm's hi-desnsity APIs were available, ought to have their right to use Palm licensed headers, tools, etc. revoked. Torture and other painful punishments ought to be considered as well. Bull. Bull, Bull, Bull and Bull. Look idiots - anyone who is going to come on this site let the world know what a 'genius' they are by informing us about how OS 5 works had damned well better think about this before saying that OS 5 magically takes care of a screen scaling. A quick example to point out the stupidity of this - ongoing - line of reasoning: I have an app with small icons/buttons lined up on the bottom of the screen. For old Palm OS, I have low-res bitmaps designed for 160x160 screen. For OS 5 hi-density API devices, I have double-density icons (the only densities currently supported as part of a bitmap family by any resource editors). Now, for either device, the same 160x160 screen co-ordinate system is used (OS 5 uses this for backward compatibilty). So, geniuses, what happens when i run this on, say, an OS 5 device that uses 1.5 x density? Well, if you go the route of allowing scaling of the double-density images down to 75% of their resolution (thats 1.5x versus 2x) - yr icons (especially if they are small and detailed) trun into crap. So what alternative do you have if you actually want things to look nice on a device with a 1.5 x, or 2.5 x or 3 x screen? You guessed it - MORE WORK. Case closed. It's *SOFT* Graffiti!
A pox to the nit who coined this "Virtual" Graffiti nonsense. It's SOFT Graffiti, dammit. So sayeth the person who has been screaming for it the longest... me! RE: Friigin Thumboard
Here it is ladies and gents. The VG question put to rest by this graphic. Which would anyone prefer the one on left or right? ... cheesy grafix editing notwithstanding. :-o http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/71vg.jpg RE: Friigin Thumboard
That *is* pretty cheesy. Makes a Palm PDA look like that flop-o-rama, the eBookman (hello, Franklin, goodbye Franklin!). But, of course, the *right* side is what we want! But in a case that is classy -- like the Toshiba GENIO 550g: http://www.genio-e.com/pda/products/gd_index.htm -- click on the button FLASH. RE: Friigin Thumboard
That Toshiba looks OK but still wastes valuable frontal area. Seems like a no brainer to get the max outta the forma factor. Sony SJ22 would do it well with VG ... it's nearly as small as a TT and doesn't close. I have a sneaking suspicion Sony will give us VG in a non-clammy OS5 soon. For now we'll just have to admire my georgeous new Zire 71V! http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/71vg.jpg RE: Friigin Thumboard
I loathe Sony's squat designs. Not even Soft Graffiti on them would make me buy. I especially detest their damned made-for-elves styli! RE: Friggin Thumboardswinginjonny @ 4/24/2003 9:27:57 AM #
I HATE the thumboard!!! I bought a Dell Axim, mostly out of curiosity (the price was so low) and I hate the OS BUT I LOVE the extra screen size! If the Tungsten C had Virtual Grafitti instead of the freakin made-for-women-and-children-with-tiny-fingers thumboard that somehow every manufacturer thinks people want (See Handspring and their freeway-speed drive into obscurity on the back of thumboard-only devices) I'd go buy it right now! Okay, I feel better--it's nice to vent a bit. I train on PDAs every day and I've used them all, Palm's keyboard implementation of the thumboard is far superior to Handsprings but it's still not as easy as good old graffiti. Frankly, I'm a little scared. I bought a PPC on a whim and I'm not sure I can go back to Palm, no matter how much better it is--the extra screen is just too nice! Why, oh why, Palm, do you make us choose??? A Tungsten T with VG would be the perfect device for me and, I believe, many others. It has the multi-media abilities of the PPC but with the simplicity, size, and ubiquity of Palm OS. If research really shows that EVERYBODY (except me) can't live without a thumboard, I'll just shut up, but what about a compromise--the sliding thumboard with gaffiti underneath (virtual, I hope) a la Sharp Zaurus? (I feel like an official part of PIC now, that was my first trip to the soapbox--but I feel really strongly that grafitti should live a good, long life.) (Self-confessed Palm Geek) RE: Friigin Thumboard
Sliding thumboard with VG underneath? ARE YOU MAD? Make that sliding VG with thumboard underneath, that way I never have to open it. :D RE: Friigin Thumboard
I gotta tell ya, from using my Clie NX60, I've found that having the option of using either soft graffiti or a thumb board *on the same device* is the key! I actually use both simultaneously quite often, thumboard for letters, SG for numbers and punctuation. It's quite fast...and kinda fun, too! _____________________________________ Tired of working for someone else, with little or nothing to show for it? www.thisistheone.net RE: Friigin Thumboard
Hey, heres the PDA I'm waiting for. A bit small, but I couldn't find a good frontal picture. RE: Friigin Thumboard
The thumboard is lesson from Handspring. IIRC, their focus group studies showed that around half of the potential customers preferred the tiny keyboards, and around half preferred pen input. A company has to offer products of each kind if they don't want to disappoint around half their potential market. Palm just introduced one of each kind. RE: Friigin Thumboard
> Bull. Bull, Bull, Bull and Bull. Look idiots - Yes, look an idiot, someone you don't want writing your software for you. Oh the horrors if/when a 4, 3 or 1.5 density screen appears, you might actually have to add the bitmaps for those densities. Instead we'll get to listen to you whine, whine, whine, whine and whine because developers like you can't design their software with other resolutions in mind. Yes, let's hold back the Palm platform just for people like you. RE: Friigin Thumboard
It's not that they can't design their software for other resolutions, it's that they're too lazy to do it the correct way. RE: Friigin Thumboard
I would buy the Tungsten-C now if there were virtual graffiti. I would probably buy it if there were just plain graffiti (I want to use MEST as well as hacks, etc, that use slidees in the graffiti area...).... RE: Friigin ThumboardPalminator @ 4/28/2003 11:17:51 AM #
Are you aware of the fact that you can use the entire display area for graffiti with the T/C? Preferences / Writing Area and turn on Write anywhere on-screen. RE: Friigin Thumboard
Yeah -- and then have fun getting the fekkin thing to recognize a tap on a button (ie, OK) as a tap and not a prelude to further G2ing! It's a botch!! RE: Friigin Thumboardbleedingedge @ 4/29/2003 2:57:07 PM #
Well, looks like the new Chinese Legend Palm 168 has the exact design we are all hoping for. Simple frame like the Palm V or m5xx with VG.
When are Sony and Palm going to get a clue??? Those thumboards are so cheesy!!! Anyone know how we might all combine our frustrations and pass this message on to these companies through the proper "feedback" channels?
FinallyI.M Anonymous @ 4/23/2003 1:23:03 AM #
I was a bit confused earlier today, when I saw a Zire 71 ad banner on PIC (with a bad link), but no announcement. I can't wait to hear the reviews, as I am seriously considering this as a replacement for my trusty Palm V. RE: Finally
I'm also anxious to read some reviews on the Zire 71 before I buy. On the surface, it looks like it will meet all my needs, and since I don't want a thumbboard, the T|C is out of the question. Does anyone remember what the "71" refers to? RE: Finally
It's the Ultimate Answer. Oh, no, wait. That's "14," isn't it? (Did I get it right, Adams fans?) RE: Finally
Don't panic! He's only off by 29 numbers (if you count them as entities, not just simple subtraction). RE: Finally
Damn! 42! That's what I get for typing numbers in the AM. I kept looking at it... but I convinced myself it was right after all. Well, at least I didn't lose my towel... RE: Finally
Zire 71 was what the improbability engine spited out when asked what is a worst disaster than a Vogon Poetry
Goodbye Bluetooth?
Looks like the T|C does not support Bluetooth, neither does the T|W nor any of the Zires. I wonder if Bluetooth on the Palm will go the way of Web Clipping, which also seems to be an abandoned technology for future Palm releases. Having WiFi built in is nice, but when you are on the road, being able to connect via a cell phone over bluetooth is much nicer IMO. Why should Tungsten owners have to choose between three different network alternatives... T|T = Bluetooth, PalmOS 5.0, 16MB, slider, Texas Instruments OMAP 1510 (ARM) 144MHz T|W = GSM/GPRS, PalmOS 4.1.1, 16MB, keyboard, Motorola Dragonball 33MHz T|C = WiFi, PalmOS 5.2.1, 64MB, keyboard, Intel XScale 400MHz RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
palm owners have to choose between the technologies because palm wants to keep their devices small. a device with built in BT, wi-fi, and GSM/GPRS would be freaking enormous not to mention cost a thousand bucks. i'm not living, i'm just killing time. RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
Come on, building in Bluetooth is far from being expensive. How much is a Bluetooth chip, 10$? Less? The technology is there and I really can't understand why they didn't integrate Bluetooth into this device. -sn RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
> All SDIO enabled devices already support the bluetooth card. Last I checked, they said that the SD Bluetooth card did not work with the Tungsten T (not that you needed it). That leads me to wonder if it works on OS 5 devices. Of course it might have just been a conflict with the built-in Bluetooth. I'm disappointed in this area too. Palm has been promising for years that their devices would all have integrated Bluetooth soon. The Tungsten T was one step forward, and since then they've taken about four steps back. RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?greentruck15 @ 4/23/2003 8:17:36 AM #
the bluetooth cards DO NOT work with the OS 5 devices - I have confirmation RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
Even if the Bluetooth cards did work with the new T|C, you can say the exact same thing about the upcoming WifFi cards and the T|T. http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4343 I do not care so much about having all three included in one device, I could honestly live without GSM/GPRS _IF_ the device also supported Bluetooth. I am more concerned with Bluetooth being treaded as some sort of 'luxury' option rather than a time honored standard. IrDA is standard with all palm devices, why not Bluetooth as well? From what I have read about Bluetooth, it must 'cost' about the same as IrDA in terns of $$, power consumption and internal real-estate (space). In this case, both the T|C and the new Zire 71 should both have Bluetooth. At one point Hi-Res color was also considered a 'luxury' option, but the Zire 71 now comes with HiRes color. RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
In Japan, everyone is using the bluetooth services to connect to internet with Palm. I beleive the bluetooth SD card is from Fujitsu and the service charge is around $14 a month, card is around $65. RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
> i think this is just a driver issue, no?? Probably, but this is one of those issues that should've been resolved long before these devices came out. RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
It is just a driver issue. I know there are future SD cards coming with 802.11b and Bluettooth. There are even SD cards coming that are combiniation memory + bluetooth or 802.11b. ------------------------------------------------------- currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue. RE: Goodbye Bluetooth?
we've got to have bluetooth. i was told by palm that it is more than a driver issue. the card wont work
Tungsten C , could be better .
Tungsten C looks great to me. especially it's with 64 RAM and 400Mhz CPU. But No bluetooh supported ?? that means if I can't find a Wi-Fi port. I can only use IR-Cell Phone or modem to surf the web or receive mails. That's no good . RE: Tungsten C , could be better .
Well, you could still get a BlueTooth SDIO card... I have used a m130 with BT card and now I have a T/T. I am suing BT to connect to my T39m mobile when travelling. The main problem is that GPRS roaming is still not working efficiently. What good is BT when I can only use a 9.6 kbps dial-in ?? Thus, I think Palm is quite on time if they now introduce a Wi-Fi Palm. Wireless access points are growing like weed everywhere, and Wi-Fi offers ten times the speed of GPRS !! If only Palm would offer localized thumbboards for ther T/C...
ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
how about the zire 71 without the camera? that's all i ask for. it could be so thin and light! i have a feeling we won't be seeing one though. it seems more and more with every product release that palm will not release any more devices without some sort of gimmick or wireless technology. the T|T had both--the slider's a gimmick and it has BT, T|W has GPRS, T|C has wi-fi, Zire 71 has a camera (yes the camera is basically a gimmick), and the original zire was, well, a gimmick itself. i'm not living, i'm just killing time. RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
i don't think waiting is an option in the tech world. if you wait, you'll be waiting forever. what makes you think palm will release a device like the Z71 w/o a camera anyway? i'm not living, i'm just killing time. RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
This is true. I've got a V which I've been waiting to upgrade.. 3 years later and now I'm gonna get the TT simply because it has the features I need and with the new releases prices should go down, although they may not considering the pricing point for the 71, but I'm certain demand will go down so vendors might reduce. But still what you gonna do, be patient and wait and then something new is on the horizon and it goes on for ever and ever and ever.. RE: agree
If they just merged the C with the Zire it would be almost perfect. Graffitti instead of thumb board, no camera, smaller/lighter/thinner, lots of memory. RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
Yeah, does *every damn thing I own* have to have a camera?! RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
"Yeah, does *every damn thing I own* have to have a camera?!" Of course it does. How else will it see you to hunt you down once Skynet becomes sentient and decides to kill all humanity? RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
Looks like my wait will be up when the Garmin iQue comes out. It has everything I want except the GPS. Garmin is a GPS company so they won't sell anything without GPS. However, I will still get it since I think the GPS will be fun to play with. It appears to be obvious Sony or Palm are not delivering what us the consumer really want. ------------------------------------------------------- currently using Palm m125 and waiting for Garmin iQue. RE: ok, where's the one i've been waiting for?
I'm beginning to think that Palm's attempt to let each licensee carve out a niche for themselves is backfiring. So far there are few overlapping products -- putting aside the mid-range -- and *no* one has produced the damned obvious that has been clamored for here since the *first* NX was unveiled: a *non*-clamshelled 320x480 unit w/Soft Graffiti! OK, at this late date, it'd also have to have BT and WiFi in it too. Hey, MICHAEL MACE!!! Why don't you tattoo some of these specs on the forehead of Eric the Red so he sees them every time he looks in the mirror in the morning?!!?
RE: idiots still
The mono sound output is only when via the built-in speaker. If you use a headset, you would be able to enjoy full stereo music on it. Tony RE: idiots still
Read this, 1 RealOne Mobile Player for Palm included. Requires expansion card, sold separately. Headphones are required for stereo sound, not included. RE: idiots stillShogmaster @ 4/23/2003 3:51:38 AM #
Actually, it's mono. Confirmed by many who have T|C. If you go to Palm's site, Zire 71's specs page SPECIFY the hedphone jack as stereo, while the T|C's specs page just says 2.5mm headphone jack. RE: idiots still
I see. Thanks. I was talking about that the Zire 71's audio jack is stereo. Tony
confusion of 2 new products
The Zire 71 has a stereo headphone jack, but no microphone or audio input. The Tungsten C audio jack only has mono sound output, but also includes a microphone input on that jack. RE: idiots still
Of course the TC has mono output. If Palm had done *everything* right, they wouldn't be Palm, would they? Palm: "We always ALMOST get it right." Geez... RE: idiots still
Yes, it is mono. Not only that, but the jack is a 4 connecter NOKIA style plug - which means stereo to mono adapters will not work. OTOH, I can get AP/PT to play songs through my NOKIA headset. No doubt a mono-stereo plug can be made, it's just not something you can get off the shelf at Radio Shack (at least none of the plugs I tried on my C worked) RE: idiots still
How would you like a Palm with the following specs: - small form factor Well, just buy a Tungsten T add a 256 MB SD card and add the following shareware: - NewPen The camera deal is ongoing. Staples has also been throwing in the Palm ultra slim folding keyboard. Just a thought. [:)] cheers, RE: idiots still
staples stopped throwing in the UT keyboard on saturday. plus you don't really get VG that way. most folks don't want VG because they like the square screen and they want to write right on it. most, if not all, of us want VG is in _more_ screen real estate--ie 320x480. i'm not living, i'm just killing time. RE: idiots stillFoo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:38:23 AM #
Since the Zire 71 has such weak audio (through the headphone Jack) it doesn't really matter. Why argue over breadcrumbs? RE: idiots still
Why would a device have 272mb Ram? 1)Ram does not come in anonymous sizes. It is all multiples of 2. 2)POS only supports 128mb RAM. RE: idiots stillZekeSulastin @ 4/23/2003 8:56:28 PM #
Uhh ... 272 IS a multiple of 2 - I get what you meant though ... To be precise, memory in most PDAs {and PCs too} (96 mb PPC notwithstanding) is in the quantity of an exponent of 2 - an 8mb PDA has 2^3 mb of ram, and a 128mb has 2^7 mb ... Generally, quantities that show up earlier in the exponent tree are added to a base exponential value in the devices with odd amounts of memory - in the 96mb PPC above, the value of 2^5, 32, is added to the value of 2^6, 64, to get the value 96. VG in a nonclamshell would be real nice - but don't expect an m5xx size unit to have VG - the screen's too big to have a usable palm in that size ... And no Handera/PPC style 3:4 screens! To maintain compatiblilty with preexisting Palm apps, the VG screens must have a pixel ratio of 2:3, like the Sony NR/X/Z units! RE: idiots still
I think what was meant is 256 + 16 (built in) = 272. -B. ...Wherever you go, there you are... 71 audiomadmaxmedia @ 4/24/2003 1:52:04 PM #
Brighthand said the 71 audio was outstanding through the headphones. Wish they compared to Sony CLIE, which has very good audio. RE: idiots still
Why does Palm do this? So, because the T|C is a business device, they skimped on the extra $1 worth in manufacturing costs to make the T|C stereo? huh? I mean, the whole tech world has been waiting for 2 yrs for Palm to get their sh!t together and compete with PPC - and they finally do it, except they go and screw up the one feature that EVERY PPC (even the lowly DELL Axim) has. Why? Just give us the damned stereo output, drop the stupid keyboard and give us the VG already (ok - some like the keyboard - so give us 2 versions). I hate to whine about this - but its getting really stupid and really conspicuous that not one Palm OS device manufacturer can give us VG (like every PPC) without forcing us to buy a folding Sony brick (nice bricks though they are). stupid - we should have had this a year ago. From the amount of complaining about this on PIC and other sites - its seems obvious that this would win some much needed market share from/back from PPC. RE: idiots still
They saved $1 in costs to LOSE just how many millions of dollars in sales? Dumbdumbdumb... Eric the Red: "Stereo?! Leave it out! *I* am a biznissman and *I* don't listen to stereo!" Michael Mace: "But...but...but..." Eric the Red: "And what about my butt, butt, butt?" RE: idiots still
I don't think they did this to save the cost of a stereo jack. They were going for the corporate market and I think their research showed most corporations do not want their equipment to be used to play MPS'3. EE needed
I was still thinking about this today. I'm not an EE. Here's the question: Is there any *inherent* conflict with having a stereo-out port on the TungC *as well as* using that same port for VoIP functions? If there is, then case closed: Palm wants VoIP more than MP3 in this thing. RE: idiots still
It's 'Zen' thing, you wouldn't understand. other companies who doens't have Zen also apparently violate this law of nature and dare adding built in mic, speaker and stereo plug even.
Seen it in Santa Barbara, CA...
I was perusing the local Staples store when I saw the Zire 71 on display. Nice unit! I had an inkling that it had a camera, but I didn't know how to reveal it. Clever hiding place.
Bluetooth???
.... I'm just searching for the bluetooth connection of the tungsten c.... and still did'nt found it. Anyone else? RE: Bluetooth???
NO! for the last time the T|C does not have bluetooth! it has wi-fi. if it had Bluetooth, rest assured it would say so in the specs. i'm not living, i'm just killing time.
Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
Now the Zire 71 is using Palm OS 5.2.1 When will Palm released an OS upgrade to the Tungsten T? The Palm OS 5.0 on the Tungsten T is very buggy. And will Palm release a Tungsten T version with 64MB internal RAM? RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
If Palm's comes with an OS 5.2.1 upgrade for the Tungsten T you can start adding extra RAM, up to 128 MB. Greetings, Roel. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
I have to agree with asiayeah. I too, tire of waiting for the OS 5.2.1 upgrade for the T|T. Our current OS is buggy, I wouldn't mind JOT, and I'm looking forward to that WebBrowser2. Come on Palm! You've got it on more then a couple PDAs, let us have the upgrade. PLEASE!! For what shall it profit a man if he were to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
maybe it won't fit in the 4MB T|T ROM. but if 5.2 does come out for the T|T, it will probably be in the next month or two. the first devices running 5.2, and i don't think palm has ever released OS upgrades for existing devices before or even at the same time as the first devices running said OS. i'm not living, i'm just killing time. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
: maybe it won't fit in the 4MB T|T ROM. Even though the T|T was advertised as having only 4MB in ROM, it's really 8MB. Here was a discussion about it not too long after T|T's launch: http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4490&curpage=9 You might want to scroll down (or run a search on the page) for kleung21's post on Palm's official response to his question about how much ROM is actually in the T|T. Also, I just checked my T|T with FileZ, and it confirms that I have 8257536 bytes of ROM. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
I don't find the OS buggy at all. Sure, some apps crash but about the same amount as my M505 with OS4. I don't want Graffiti 2 but now that I'm using TealScript, I'll be glad to load OS 5.2 and not have to worry about Palm's diluted version of Jot (I tried a demo of this and could never get used to it). RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
> I don't find the OS buggy at all. Try connecting to an access point with Bluetooth, and then say that. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
Had hoped Tony Rudenko (http://www.palmpilotupgrade.com) might be in the loop for possible OS/memory upgrades. Q: "Now that Palm has come out with the 64mb T|C, do you have any plans/timeframe that you will be offering a similar upgrade for us T|T owners? Thanks in advance!" Time will tell. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
"Try connecting to an access point with Bluetooth, and then say that." I have the Belkin AP and it connect perfect everytime. There's several threads about this in the Bluetooth discussion forums. Now trying to get network access through a PC w/ a dongle doesn't work. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
Network access through a USB bluetooth dongle works fine with my iBook and iMac. With the new upgrade to Versamail 2.5, I have d/l'ed 500 messages into my T/T and have surfed the internet using Blazer. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten
> Network access through a USB bluetooth dongle works fine I assume you're probably using PPP over a serial profile and not the network access profile. Sure the Belkin AP works, but if you read the posts it also apparently has crappy range. Yes, some APs work with it, but I've seen posts about others that don't. RE: Will an OS upgrade finally be available to the Tungsten T?
>Try connecting to an access point with Bluetooth, and then say that.
I am using a Belkin USB dongle on Win98 on my home PC using MochaPPP and except for the occasional crash from MochaPPP, I haven't had any problems. I do wish the range of the dongle was a little bit more (it's a struggle to get access in my bedroom upstairs).
So How Long Before...
we start to hear reports of the Tungsten C as the latest wireless hacking tool. Someone's got to be working on a "PalmStumbler" app for wardriving/walking ;-) RE: So How Long Before...
... if not the long searched for 'killer application' ;-) I only wonder about the palm's radio range. RE: So How Long Before...
Shouldn't be tough if Palm releases DEV specs on the radio. Course you've long been able to do that with LAN Status on a HandEra 330. And the Symbol CF 802.11b card's range is wonderful... What I think would be a more useful use of the horsepower is a porting of SAMBA/SMBMount type apps for browsing and mounting to Windows networks. So far we've only got command line tools SMB. RE: So How Long Before...
I'd love to have some UNIX networking utilities on a Palm. Hook me up with telnet and SSH and I'm good to go. And maybe an X client too...*drooling*
Peace Out Alan
Network Questions?
Since there's no Bluetooth in the T|C, can a wifi-enabled desktop (PC or Mac) establish a computer-T|C network (w/o a router) for the purpose of Hotsyncing, file-sharing? How about T|C-T|C for file-sharing, chatting, etc.? RE: Network Questions?
i'd say you'll always need a router. you could always run a router sw on your desktop (ha!). RE: Network Questions?
You shouldn't need a router to connect the two devices, but it'd probably depend on what WiFi configurations the Tungsten C supports. RE: Network Questions?
Actually, I played with a Tungsten C last December - we were in a building in Milpitas and were able to get a good signal anywhere inside (it was a very large building, with several walls, and we were talking to a Cisco Aironet 340 card on my Thinkpad - the range was quite good). RE: Network Questions?
Clarifying what I said, you never need a router except in some cases where you're accessing the Internet (or some other WAN). Worst case, you would need an access point (to exchange files, sync, etc.) if for some reason the Tungsten C couldn't do point to point 802.11b.
camera picscoolcactus @ 4/23/2003 5:59:47 AM #
Could someone plwase post a picture taken with the internal camera of the Zire 71? Just to get an idea of the quality of the images... RE: camera pics
Surprisingly, the camera of the Z 71 seems to surpass that of the highest-end PPC of the moment: the Toshiba GENIO 550 C! See this review: http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/av/20030410/104368/ and larger views of sample pictures taken: http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/av/20030410/104368/06b.jpg and http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/av/20030410/104368/07.shtml -- all together now: EEEEEWWWWW! RE: camera pics
What the...! Looks like the photographer was being catapulted at the tree. Very blurry but nice colour. RE: camera pics
Oh looked at the other pics. Do you think they were taken when the photographer was drunk? Never seen flowers look like they are competing in the Olympics. RE: camera pics
Maybe the flowers and tree were ATTACKING him?! I don't think the camera has a zoom, so I can't otherwise account for that strange blurring effect. (Man, Japanese flora are hostile!) Unless they got their optics from Kodak? (Laughing bitterly over Kodak's past pathetic camera attachments for other PalmOS PDAs...) RE: camera pics
Here's a Z 71 pic (not the best I've seen, however!): http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/show.php?id=3460&page=3 RE: camera pics
Were you guys expecting to buy a Zire 71 and then go on assignment for National Geographic? RE: camera pics
No but I did expect to get pictures which looked like they were taken when sober. You'd have to put a disclaimer on any pics you tooka nd passed round "I was not drunk when I took this shot. I swear" Quality is one thing but having such bad focus is another. RE: camera picsFoo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:42:00 AM #
"Were you guys expecting to buy a Zire 71 and then go on assignment for National Geographic?"
No, but I was expecting to be at least good enough for Peter Arnett to use at his new job, The Daily Rag. 8^)
Quicktime?!!?
Hey, what's this business about QUICKTIME being required to view video?! That's what the footnote of the huge Z 71 poster at a local Staples states ("free download available" -- I hope faster than the RealPlayer download -- bitter laughter!!)! What's up with that? Did Apple make "Quicktime for PalmOS" or is QT being used as the front-end to some sort of middleware that will convert (God help us!) QT files into a PalmOS-friendly format? And with soooo many Palm owners using PCs, isn't QT sorta, ah, unwise? (I don't know about the rest of you, but QT and WMP on the same PC fight like cats and dogs!!) RE: Quicktime?!!?
Quicktime is used to produce movies using Kinoma Producer (that is if you're familiar with it). If not, then shut up. ;) My two cents worth! RE: Quicktime?!!?
I've never used KP, so that's why I was wondering about QT. So that's the entire frigging mystery?! RE: Quicktime?!!?
Yep thats basically "it". Coz you need to install Quicktime before you could use the Kinoma Producer. Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it! RE: Quicktime?!!?
Hey! I'm not like that at all. I just got sick of all your whinnings, thats all. Peace. Got Palm? Don't keep it, flaunt it! RE: Quicktime?!!?Foo Fighter @ 4/23/2003 11:45:10 AM #
IMO, video on PalmOS is still more novelty than mature technology. For digital media, PPC still comes out ahead, at least in that area. Then again...let's see PPC vendors try to market a PDA with built-in cam for under $299! RE: Quicktime?!!?
You only need Quicktime for some of the video codecs to work properly in the Kinoma Publisher. Without it loaded, you can only do a few of the formats in the conversion. Probably a license issue. As far as video being a novelty, not if you look at actual video performance. From the perspective of someone with both PPC and Palm platforms, my PPC has good audio but struggles with the video. They report the 1910 as being able to run video at 19FPS. A Palm M515 can do anywere from 29 to 52 frames per second depending on the bitrate of the video, and that's on the old 33Mhz Dragonball. The T|T can exceed *200* FPS, and I don't see that being any worse on the Z71 or especially the T|C. RE: Quicktime?!!?
>>IMO, video on PalmOS is still more novelty than mature technology. For digital media, PPC still comes out ahead, at least in that area. Then again...let's see PPC vendors try to market a PDA with built-in cam for under $299! ---------- it's never going to happen in the US. PPC camera accessory has been a very slow sell for PDA. even the one with flash and able to record movie isn't a big seller for PPC. I think the Japanese genioC is a slow seller too. RE: Quicktime?!!?
Quicktime is not a codec! It is a framework, a very powerful framework. KP uses Quicktime for this reason. Windows Media and Real Player are not even close. Duplicating what Quicktime does would be a huge waste of time. RE: Quicktime?!!?
In any case: the idea of having to use a producer software instead of using the native, standard file formats is pretty dreadful. If you have tried it, then you'll find out that a) it takes forever. and b) really bad quality (at least for my taste and compared to Clie's or PPC) Palm wants to catch to PPC/Clie, but they seem to drop the ball left and right! RE: Quicktime?!!?
Yes you can consider it a framework, I was referring to the fact that there are certain codecs that do not work in the Kinoma Producer without Quicktime loaded. Thanks for the clarification though. The conversion process is not that bad... I've converted a few gigs of video. It takes forever with some other video solutions, but Kinoma seems to be amonger the faster in the conversion process. Fortunately, you can drag all your videos to the window for batch processing. I get opposite results in regards to quality. Not only is playback smoother, but still frames are sharper with more detail. Depends on how the conversion is setup... the defaults are pretty laid back to get the most of space. RE: Quicktime?!!?Timothy Rapson @ 4/23/2003 9:53:02 PM #
QuickTime is probably on your PC. Apple makes versions for PC available as readily as for Apple OS models. Palm is almost certainly just using it as the desktop client. RE: Quicktime?!!?
My sub-point above has been lost: On every PC I've used that has both WMP and QT installed, they fight to the death (apparently mine, not theirs!)! How can they peacefully coexist?! RE: Quicktime?!!?
Mike: Take a series of deep breaths, then unistall quicktime. Download a new copy from apple, do the custom installation, and do not allow quicktime to be the default for anything other than MOV files or other non-Windows file types. Then quicktime will learn its place. ****y quicktime software. -mrhockey Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have |
i'm not living, i'm just killing time.