Comments on: Possible T3 SD Card Problem?
update Palm wants to hear from you if you have experienced a T3 SD card wipe out.
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RE: SanDisk!
so far my t3 still reads & writes to it.
using docs to go native docs & mp3s.
i have removed the card until I hear it is fixed but I have used it all weekend without a problem
RE: SanDisk!
thanks
RE: SanDisk!
I have all the problems and the exact same error message as per bitsnbolts.
BUT I have a 512mb Panasonic Card. So it could be size of card and Sandisk
Zlauncher 3.62b, Tungsten TT3.
RE: SanDisk!
Picked up a 512MB card this morning, thinking the card had just gone bad. New card is SanDisk, received bad sector error at 8:30pm Eastern US time.
Question is: who is going to replace my cards?
RE: SanDisk!
RE: SanDisk!
Captain T
"You will never make progress trying to sail into the wind - chart your course!"
This is a test for "The New Palm"
But regardless of who is the primary culprit in this latest PDA teapot tempest, how Palm responds will be a good indication as to whether or not the company has changed its mindset. Palm needs to show that it learned its lesson from the previous m505 debacle by dealing with the current problem quickly and honestly. The last thing they need is a defective flagship product, especially with the competition about to heat up over the next few weeks.
If their own engineers need help - I wonder how beta testing failed to show such an obvious flaw - Palm should retain the services of a company like TRG/HandEra to develop a solution immediately.
Beating Sony et. al. to the market by a few weeks with a shiny new PDA won't mean much if Palm ends up getting bad publicity, eroding user loyalty and ultimately having to recall thousands of devices.
The days of simple Palms are over - we're probably going to start seeing a lot more hardware glitches and incompatibilities from now on. I just hope the current T³ problem doesn't stem from something stupid like Palm's Chinese contract manufacturer having used a defective 1 cent capacitor when the two cent capacitor was needed. Profit margins may be lower than they were three years ago, but Palm should know all too well that cutting costs can produce expensive fallout.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: SanDisk!
The entire m100 series comes to mind.
Don't forget the thousands of colors of the m130.
We'll see how they do I guess.
Depending on how this all shakes out, i might consider a Pa1mone handheld in the future.
Just not right now.
RE: SanDisk!
--------------------
Personally, I hate people using such words when a problem is not yet clarified.
RE: SanDisk!
When I saw this news story - the first thing through my head was 'ah, that's why Palm doesn't offer larger SD cards on their store'.
Frankly, the truth hurts...
RE: SanDisk!
I think Palm's previous mistakes may come back to haunt them. Palm can quickly destroy the goodwill it created among users in the late 1990s when the company was putting out solid, reliable hardware backed by (perhaps overly) generous customer support policies.
Compare the total cost of issuing a recall to the cost of taking the time to properly beta test hardware - it becomes even more surprising to see this happening.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: SanDisk!
--------------------
Personally, I hate people using such words when a problem is not yet clarified."<
You took the statement out of context and excluded the qualifying part of the statment, the words, " just hope the current T³ problem doesn't stem..." at the beginning of that sentence. Taken in context, this is an expression of opinion and hopefulness for the best. If you "hate people using such words", that's fine, but he had a right to say it whether you like what was said or not. Honestly, I hope it doesn't stem from something like that either. I think we all do.
_________________
Sean
"They're smoking crack."
-Linus Torvalds on SCO group's copyright claims against Linux-
RE: SanDisk!
I will be uninstalling it and going back to MegaLauncher since they now have high res + support. Hopefully, I won't have issues with it. Has anyone else used this software with the T3?
Man, Palm and SD...
I think there is an SD patch for every Palm PDA so-equipped, saving maybe one or two, and they have size limits.
Still, at least it isn't SUDS, am I right? huuh?
(crickets)
I know you're out there, I can hear you typing...
RE: Man, Palm and SD...
Most probably this is a combination problem of software and hardware on the palm.
I almost bought a T3 with all the accessories. Then I saw postings on the SD problem. I will keep my reliable road warrior for now.
Grammar Nazi!
...should be "prior to the card [i]losing[/i] data".
RE: Grammar Nazi!
...should be "prior to the card [i]losing[/i] data".
If you want to be a purist about it, it should be "prior to the card's losing data."
RE: Grammar Nazi!
Wrong... now you've turned the word 'losing' into an adjective.
Before we become too obsessed with literary etiquette, perhaps we should reflect upon the fact that English is not everyone’s primary language. Granted I’m a newcomer to this group, and hopefully those with more whiskers than I will forgive this rant, but in my not-too-humble opinion, I believe we should focus more on the content, than the medium. We stifle discussion by suppressing those who don’t have a strong grasp of the rules of English grammar. The next brilliant comment that that goes unsaid, could be the very comment that could have changed us all.
Having said that, let me apologize for the rant [quietly drags soap box to the far corner].
I'm not a smartass in real life, I just portray one on the web.
RE: Grammar Nazi!
RE: Grammar Nazi!
The addition of -ing to a verb actually creates a GERUND which is more or less a VERB parading as a NOUN and as such, can be used as one. The adjective form of "lose" would be "lost" (not "loser" which would be the subsantive form) which is the equivalent of the PARTICIPLE of the verb, best known in grammatical constructions using the past perfect, such as "I have LOST all data on my SD, thank you very much."
Don't confuse PARTS OF SPEECH(noun, adjective, verb, gerund) with MOODS (subjunctive, indicative, admirative) with CASES (nominative, genitive, ablative, locative, instrumental, etc.). There is no logical argument that a "subjuctive and would normally take the genitive as above" because the anything in the subjunctive mood would be a verb, and thus not have any case, as verbs are conjugated (did I mention TENSES?) and not declined (CASES again, i.e. genitive).
If Bill meant to say "gerund" instead of "subjunctive" he was correct in saying that "losing" was in the genitive case, although (as explained above) the use of the word "normally" is unwarranted.
BTW, I'm American, and I needed to learn French, Russian, German and Albanian before I got all this **** straight. In these other languages, all these moods and cases are expressed by strange endings and prefixes and particles, whereas in English, you don't see them - even though they exist and we use them unwittingly, since we don't usually have to change the word. For example, our "apostrophe S" as in "Bob's fried SD card" is actually the genitive case; in Albanian, this can be represented by at least 5 different particles, depending on the usage of the noun and its position in the sentence.
This is all just a cheap and convoluted argument for all peoples of the world to embrace the English language. It's friggin' easier.
RE: Grammar Nazi!
Don't get ME started on when I frigging see "priviledged."!
RE: Grammar police!
Tirana is all the Albanian you need to know, comrade.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: Grammar Nazi!
Haha! And I guess my own comment is now a "Tu Quoque" fallacy. Oh, well. I was never any good at refutation anyway. :-)
Ron
actually...
Psion 5/Motorola StarTac -> Palm Vx -> Palm m505 -> Sony N770C -> Sony T625C -> Sony NR70V/Ericsson T39m -> Toshiba e310 -> Palm Tungsten T/Ericsson T68m -> HP h2210 -> Palm Tungsten T/3/Ericsson T610
RE: actually...
RE: actually...
Unrecognized Card
"The handheld cannot recognize this card."
RE: Unrecognized Card
Crazy 'bout a http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/henryshaulers/">Mercury...
Suggest everyone write-locks their cards
I'm simply using an SD reader to copy stuff to it until this is resolved.
RE: Suggest everyone write-locks their cards
RE: Suggest everyone write-locks their cards
Psion 5/Motorola StarTac -> Palm Vx -> Palm m505 -> Sony N770C -> Sony T625C -> Sony NR70V/Ericsson T39m -> Toshiba e310 -> Palm Tungsten T/Ericsson T68m -> HP h2210 -> Palm Tungsten T/3/Ericsson T610
RE: Suggest everyone write-locks their cards
I'd strongly suggest you simply don't use them.
PNY card. So far so good...
It shows as being from Toshiba.
234.3 MB used (mostly MP3 files and a directory for backup). I use BackupBuddyVFS version 2.04.
Knock on wood. All is well.
RE: PNY card. So far so good...
I am not trolling
RE: I am not trolling
Thanks, robrecht
RE: I am not trolling
Ron
RE: I am not trolling
suggests that this problem is not a Palm OS only problem. The main culprit seems to be san disk but any brand of sd card with certain serial numbers(id numbers?) are giving people with PPCs trouble too.
RE: I am not trolling
Is this just an opinion or can you point me to some information.
RE: I am not trolling
I think someone over at ClieSource has a pointless class action suit against SONY but I can't point you to specifics.
Thanks, robrecht
RE: My 512mb Sandisk is fine for now...
It's been a long way since my m505 days and now that I'm on a T|T2, I can't wait to get my hands on a T|T3.
You said that your 512mb Sandisk card works pretty well with the T|T3, did you start out from scratch, meaning that you only restored the Calendar, Contacts, Todos and Memos from your previous Palm?
Any conflicts at all?
This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
This issue doesn't apply to T3 only, it basically applies to PocktPCs and Zaurus as well. I have the same experience on my iPaq 2210, and it happens very often that I need to buy a non-SanDisk SD card later on.
SanDisk has never publicly addressed this issue, and you should becareful when you buy other brands also because some other brands also use SanDisk's controller, so even some most trusted Panasonic cards fails as well.
I doubt PalmOne can do anything about it as this is SanDisk's problem. If you want to be safe, just grab a more expensive one.
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
"I doubt, therefore I might be."
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
Bquin
...laughing at a world too absurd to take seriously...
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
None of them have burned out yet and I have 5 sandisk sd cards.
Perhaps I am so used to sluggish reading that it never phased me. I am getting the t3 tomorrow...burn baby burn!!
If you don't expect anything...
you won't be disappointed
MKD
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
Panasonic cards are a very good example of this. Those that are made in Japan runs in high quality while those are made in the U.S. have problems.
You should spend some time on PPC forum, like Brighthand, and you'll see how many people will tell you to avoid buying SanDisk related stuffs.
"I doubt, therefore I might be."
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
-Bosco
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
So, just relax.
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
Um...Panasonic manufactures their own controllers. I've *never* heard of them buying controllers from SanDisk or anyone else. I have heard that manufacturers that sell rebranded Panasonic cards (i.e. Lexar) are also starting to use SanDisk cards as well.
_________________
Sean
"They're smoking crack."
-Linus Torvalds on SCO group's copyright claims against Linux-
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
THAT'S RIGHT
Dude,
They're not all defective. Why don't you blame Nissan for the crappy gas they sell at Speedway?
Oh my God. They found me. I dunno how but they found me...
RUN FOR IT MARTY!
Quik_Fix
quikfix76@msn.com
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
In essence, yes. That's what the "SD industry association" is there for: to ensure compatibility between devices and cards with the SD logo on them. If SanDisk is known to make incompatible or marginal cards, their use of the SD logo should be revoked. Palm is a board member of the SD industry association, so this is their business not just because they are shipping SD-compatible machines, but also because they are involved with SD.
And, yes, Palm should be testing their handhelds with hundreds of different cards, many cards from the same manufacturer, under heavy load, to detect just these kinds of problems.
Note that there is no reason to believe that SanDisk is actually at fault. Many people have used their SD cards for months in other handhelds or cameras with no problems. The obvious conclusion is that it's the T3 that's out of spec, not the card. Maybe SanDisk cards are just more sensitive to out-of-spec devices but their cards are actually still within spec. But as a customer, I shouldn't have to worry about that.
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
Here's hoping nothing bad happens. You guys are frieking me out and making me paranoid to keep using it.
RE: This is SanDisk's fault, not PalmOne.
"They should have bought every single Sandisk SD out there over 64mb and tested them!
Dude,
They're not all defective. Why don't you blame Nissan for the crappy gas they sell at Speedway?"
First of all only 16 year olds call each other "dude", secondly given the very large number of complaints any kind of testing would have uncovered this issue.
sandisk...ick!
Michael Reyes
www.mikochu.com
it *is* Palm's problem
So, if a Palm model breaks an SD card, Palm should take back the handheld. And either Palm or SanDisk should replace the broken card--the choice of which company it is should be mine, since, as consortium members, they are both responsible. For each company to shift the blame on the other just isn't acceptable.
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
My point is that the existence of those variations is Palm's problem. Palm claims that their handhelds are compatible with SD cards, meaning all SD cards. If Palm is known to be only compatible with some SD cards then Palm would have to say so.
Note that Palm is a board member of the SD card industry association, the association that sets the standards, owns the trademarks, and determines who can and cannot label their cards as "SD Cards".
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
Jodi
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
Bquin
...laughing at a world too absurd to take seriously...
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
There is no stupid questions, just stupid people.
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
"Fault" and "responsibility" are not the same thing. It isn't Palm's "fault", but it is their "responsibility".
RE: it *is* Palm's problem
Palm can't afford any more lawsuits. They've already wasted millions of dollars fighting bogus lawsuits and a major loss could put them out of business.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
Corrupted SanDisk 64MB Secure Digital Card
Sounds like problem is only on SD cards of greater than 32MB
Another Sandisk bites the dust!
Observations and possible cause
What led me down this path is that the errors only appeared when performing an intensive operation, such as a full back up or copying huge files while the card is in the Palm. To test, I performed a backup which resulted in the bad sector error. Surprisingly, the card was very warm. Not hot, but well above what I have ever felt before with an SD card. Sure enough, the card was corrupted and I could not open several DTG files from the card. Performing a format in my laptop left the card cool. Performing a full scan with bad block checking took several minutes, but there were no bad blocks or errors detected, and, the card was still cool. Still on the laptop, the SD card was reloaded by copying my backup to the card. Writing over 200MB of data directly to the card in one shot caused no errors when it was done in my laptop. The card was slightly warm, but nowhere near the almost-hot temperature obtained by doing a sustained write while the card is installed in the Palm. Continous reads have no similar effect, as I have played MP3s and video files for hours with no card overheating. I'm not going to lock my card, as it seems to have no problem with less intensive operations, but I will avoid backups with any product for now until the problem has been resolved.
RE: Observations and possible cause
RE: Observations and possible cause
Sounds more to me like something in the driver is marking sectors on the card as bad even though they are not. Once marked bad, I don't think a simple format or running error checking is going to fix the card (I think they both just assume bad sectors are still bad). I believe you would have to run some lower level operations to "fix" the sectors that were incorrectly marked bad. Just a guess on my part though.
RE: Observations and possible cause
ganoe: I don't want to jump either, just posting my findings. Although I was able to restore my 512MB card to be fully functioning again, my 256MB Lexar was not so fortunate. The chip controller is actually damaged... something which I don't think would be caused by sectors being marked bad. A scan while it was still working revealed 0 bad blocks, and that report did not change after numerous errors. I think that the card overheating while being hammered is very telling. Still, I agree that we should wait for more information.
RE: Observations and possible cause
If this was the case, then it would be the same as my old bracket racer I used to run at the dragstrip: The rear axle was fine... until I bumped up the power from 200hp to 350hp. Cleaned those teeth off of the ring gear!
RE: Observations and possible cause
and you know that because??? Did you use the manufacturer's procedure to test the chip of something?
RE: Observations and possible cause
Bquin
...laughing at a world too absurd to take seriously...
RE: Observations and possible cause
Frying up a controller with over-voltage would need a serious increase of level (generally caused by statics).
Laurent
RE: Observations and possible cause
Of course at this point, I'm just guessing based on the evidence.
RE: Observations and possible cause
The SanDisk data transfer rate to/from flash are 2.0 MB/sec (burst) and the data transfer rate to/from the host is 2.5 MB/sec burst). I wonder if the T3 is exceeding this spec? Does anyone out there have the ability to, or want to, try measuring it?
If this indeed was the cause and slowing down the transfer rate solved the problem, how many people would be up in arms and griping about the slower transfer rate? That is, how many people "want their cake and eat it too?"
RE: Observations and possible cause
Lexar 64mb by Toshiba, no problems.
Any one use a Sandisk card with a camera and have problems? Other posters say they haven't worked all that well with PPCs.
RE: Lexar 64mb by Toshiba, no problems.
I do like the Sandisk 6-in-1 card reader for what it's worth... but I definitely won't ever buy a Sandisk-made card again.
Any ideas how to find out which cards they OEM?
What about WiFi?
Me Too - My T3 toasted a 256 San Disk SD card
Everything locked solid up on the T3 - it is very unrobust about the software on ram. We did the YES reset and the T3 worked - then started pushing over various programs & associated files (to save having to reenter all software unlock codes)- after a few more YES resets things seemed to be working when McFile showed no data in the PALM directory on the card (Panic!). I put the card in the PC card reader and the whole drive came up with a Palm File logo like it was a single file but showed the Audio & PALM directories. When I clicked on the directory it froze - dead as - cant be formatted - junk! (the nice man at Portables Plus here in Wellington NZ gave me a new one!)
An identical card from my camera is working OK so far (with many backups to the PC) with all software loaded from the PC and all those unlock codes re-entered.
Another problem with the T3 is the Grafitti 2 is flaky and just stops working - I cant write anything - I can see the letter in the graffiti area but no text appears until after a soft reset. Plus the bluetooth has just stopped saying the software is not there.
Good Luck to the other T3 owners out there!
John
SD Card Problem
The card in question is a SanDisk 128MB card. I purchased a Lexar (made by Panasonic) 256MB card at CompUSA for $79 and it works just fine.
RE: SD Card Problem
My T3 also destroyed my 128 SanDisk Card, Fortunatley my NX60 is up and running
I do not know when they will acknowledge it officially!
Only problems with SanDisk? Any counter example?
So all the problems are with SanDisk branded, or SanDisk unbranded cards? (ie: You might have a LExar, but if your particular Lexar was actually a rebranded SanDisk, you have a problem?) Are there any Toshiba or Panasonic or the like made SD cards that are known to have been killed in a T3?
(ie: My SanDisk card is acting up, so I'm going to buy a new SD card today.....)
jeff
The Shadow knows!
RE: Only problems with SanDisk? Any counter example?
I picked up a Lexar (which turns out to be a Panasonic once I tested it in the device at the store :), so I picked it up; BackupMan still doesn't work (same error), but I can read and write to it with the T3 and use Card Export with it, etc.
Upon trying to read mt data off my old SanDisk using a card reader.. no go. Mostly bad. Also can't read it with PDA :( Lots of data loss.
Copying stuff to the new Lexar seams fine though...
jeff
The Shadow knows!
RE: Only problems with SanDisk? Any counter example?
-jcm
Somewhat off topic but...
If I record a voice memo and set it as an alarm to play as an alarm, when the alrm plays, it locks the T3 and I have to do a soft reset.
Has any one else experienced this?
RE: Somewhat off topic but...
FATAL RESET
I've lost two Sandisk since I got my T3 last Tuesday. I was using a 125 MB card to back up files and offload DOC files with M515. I was careful to delete any program files from the LAUNCHER subdirectory before putting it into my new T3. Also ran Backup Buddy VFS to back up the card files.
I'm using applications such as Avantgo, iSiloX, Vindigo, Palm Reader. Backup Buddy VFS won't work with OS5, according to the vendor. At some point during a Hotsync, I noticed a "Fatal Reset" message. After rebooting, I reseated the 125 MB card and it couldn't be reformatted or recognized by either the Palm or my SD card reader. The return is in process.
Monday night, I also lost a brand new 256 MB card after a Fatal Reset during another Hotsync. Good luck everyone.
Palm is doing a Sony
Psion 5/Motorola StarTac -> Palm Vx -> Palm m505 -> Sony N770C -> Sony T625C -> Sony NR70V/Ericsson T39m -> Toshiba e310 -> Palm Tungsten T/Ericsson T68m -> HP h2210 -> Palm Tungsten T/3/Ericsson T610
RE: Palm is doing a Sony
Any manufacturer has no control or monitoring of how a user takes care of their PDA, so they cannot vouche for coverage on their warranty. For these things, you need to buy extended user warranties at place of purchase.
Comparing as such is not equivalent.
================================
PDAs rule the world !
Are ALL Sandisk sd cards >64MB affected?
Are ALL Sandisk SD cards over 64 MB affected? I have a Sandisk 128MB card in a Tungsten C and a 256MB card in a Tungsten T3. The TC has been going for over a month with no problems and the T3 has no problems since Oct 1 (purchase date). The T3 uses the card a LOT - it's used for reading for 4-6 hours daily plus "normal" stuff.
Is it possible that this is an issue only with certain SD devices and certain SD cards and not a simple all or nothing issue?
Thanks,
Panagiotis
sandisk reply
Thank you for contacting SanDisk Technical Support.
All Sandisk cards are able to be read in all devices that can read SD cards. You might want to contact Palm to see if there are any firmware updates for the T3.
Here is the link to Palm:
http://www.palm.com/home.html
If you have any further questions, please feel free to reply to this e-mail or contact our technical support department toll free at 866-SANDISK (866-726-3475). Our technical support team is open Monday through Friday, 7 am to 4 pm PST. Have a Great Day and thank you for choosing SanDisk!
Best Regards,
Scott
SanDisk Technical Support
RE: sandisk reply
Note that they didn't say that they can be written :-)
In other words get lost sucker we already have your money...
Look at it from SanDisk's perspective: their cards have been on the market for a while and people are using them with lots of digital cameras. Now the T3 comes out and they break with it.
The point is: both Palm and SanDisk are responsible for this: they are both board members of the SD card association, and they both guarantee that their products work with each other. If they don't, they have to stand behind their products and replace them/reimburse people. They should do their finger pointing in private.
Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 8:48:45 PM Europe/London
To:
Subject: Re: Other: I've just ordered a new T3 and am very c
Dear Bruce,
Thank you very much for your inquiry. I understand that you would like to know whether 256 MB Expansion SD card is compatible with Palm(TM) Tungsten(TM) T3 handheld.
Bruce, currently Palm, Inc., has identified some issues with 256 MB Expansion SD card on your Palm Tungsten T3 handheld. Palm is aware of the issue and in order to make Palm handheld more user friendly our Technicians are diligently working hard to resolve the issue and will be coming up with the patch to resolve the issue. The patch will be updated on our Palm Web site soon.
I suggest that you keep visiting our Palm site for the latest updates at the following URL:
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
Not destroying the user's expensive SD cards = making the T3 more user friendly.
This sort of ridiculous level of customer management doublespeak is what makes good, friendly folks so downright sceptical of anything marketing people do or say.
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
It is wierd to be told by the manufacturer to stop using a feature of a pda I was sold by them until they fix a problem they don't know about.
Still waiting ...
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
Well thank goodness they are working on it. The rep I spoke with was very helpful, but did not seem to have known about the problem. Having run a helpdesk before, I know that the reps often do not get a heads up on situations like this unless they are sitting next to someone whe received a similar call, chat about it at lunch, or hear about it at the next morning meeting.
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
The way they put this, it sounds just like the Keebler Elves :-)
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
The way they put this, it sounds just like the Keebler Elves :-)
Would you prefer "Dedicated handheld computer technicians are diligently working hard around the clock as part of a massive co-ordinated effort to resolve the issue as quickly as possible"?
Spin 101. Chapter 1, page 3.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
*Soapbox on*
We need to start making electronics in the USA again. For a lot of reasons. Of course, with Chinese workers being paid around 60 cents an hour, the only way America can compete is by using almost fully-automated factories. Companies like Dell and HP should be leading the way in the "Made in the USA" movement, but it looks like the bottom line is all that matters to big business. It's scary to see how quickly the world has become dependent on China for the manufacturing of goods. Almost every relatively inexpensive consumer item seems to be made in China these days. Look around any store and you'll actually find it hard to find American-made goods. Big business may not care about human rights abuses abroad, but it's still unsettling to see so many companies now dependent on Bejing. If their government ever becomes unstable, the world's economy is going to collapse, literally overnight.
*Soapbox off*
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: Palm are aware and are working on a software patch
We all had a similar problem from Palm with the Tungsten T "345 file limit in Ram" fault and that took 5 months for Palm to recognise/admit & fix.
Palm has recognised this problem in less that 10 day so it is a huge improvement on their part.
My T3 and SanDisk 256 card are now working OK after formatting the card in the T3 and loading all software via HotSync
Sandisk SD cards
Raises a lot of interesting questions about country of manafacture etc.
RE: Sandisk SD cards
The best Palm ever.
"Life is Too Short"
RE: Sandisk SD cards
I know I've had problems with the 128MB SanDisk and my (forgive me) Axim. (It's my work machine...I still prefer Palm).
Just curious...
One by one, the penguins are stealing my sanity.
RE: Sandisk SD cards
Continue to buy SanDisk?
Don't buy or use SanDisk SD cards. They're crap.
Secondly, the T3 is a new device, like any new computer or electronics device. Like other first generation products there are going to be initial issues. (Just because it's a T3 doesn't make it a third generation T series.) Therefore, if one doesn't want to encounter such possible early adopter issues, don't buy a first generation product. If you do, then take steps to protect yourself. Back up your data. Research on the internet about your product to see what's going on, etc.
Personally, I've been very happy with my T3. But, I'm also aware that it's a new device, a new product, and a first generation item. As an early adopter, I take steps to minimize problems. I would suggest others who early adopt new electronics to do the same.
Btw, I have two 256 MB SD cards that have shown no problems. (Both are rebranded Panasonics; one Lexar the other SimpleTech.) At this time, I've write locked them and only put them in the device when needed. Since the T3 has 64 MB of RAM, there is more internal memory to work with.
Lastly, I do believe Palm will rectify this issue. It's certainly unfortunate that people have lost SD cards. However, if they were SanDisk I can only recommend going with another brand. IMO, Panasonic SD cards (and those that are rebranded) seem to be the best.
Good luck to all.
-----
Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3
SanDisk will ROCK YOU LIKE A HURRICAINE*
Why do Palm users continue to by SanDisk SD cards
Because they're everywhere and they're cheap and most users don't know any better.
Like other first generation products there are going to be initial issues.
Beta testing should have shown this problem long ago.
At this time, I've write locked them
Until we learn what the underlying problem is, that might not be enough. You'd probably be better off relying on RAM for the next little while.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: Continue to buy SanDisk?
Perhaps. However, beta testing is a much smaller pool of people than when a product is released. It's possible this problem wasn't known. As a T3 user, I haven't encountered any problems with SD cards described here. None. Only a small percentage may be affected and, as a result, wouldn't have shown itself during a beta test.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting those who've lost cards are at fault at all. This issue needs to be fixed and hopefully those who've lost cards will receive compensation.
There's nothing to do at this point but wait for Palm's engineers.
-----
Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3
RE: Continue to buy SanDisk?
Nonsense. It's a $400 retail device, not a freebie beta test. I certainly do not expect there to be "initial issues", I expect companies to do proper testing, and I expect them to stand behind their products. If they don't, they are bad companies.
Why do Palm users continue to by SanDisk SD cards when it's been well known (for over a year) that they are not reliable in Palm Handhelds. SanDisk uses substandard chipsets that do not work properly or speedwise.
They are both SD-branded devices and they are therefore guaranteed to work together, by both Palm and SanDisk. In fact, not only do they both use the trademark, they are both members of the SD industry association. I have no interest in second-guessing branded products.
If Palm and SanDisk can't get their compatibility issues and trademark issues worked out, there is always Sony: Sony memory sticks work in Sony PDAs.
RE: Continue to buy SanDisk?
As long as you didn't get one of the models with an unreliable slot connector. Also as long as you don't use a Memory Stick Pro in a device that doesn't support it, or expect to use more than 128MB in a non-Pro compatible device.
This is reason # 600 why CompactFlash simply destroys SD...
The CLIE UX-50 is a CF slot, good screen, more memory and better keyboard away from power user perfection. The next UX will be the laptop of the future.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: This is reason # 600 why CompactFlash simply destroys SD...
Yes, it would be cute with that big honking CF slot. The SpringBoard modules were pretty robust too. Come to think of it, the Tandy DeskMate was also robust ;)
Seriously, with more physical space the CF is easier to design components for peripherals. So they will be the first choice when it come to releasing extras, as we both already know. The SD format is way more challenging. However, size becomes a crucial issue with some devices... and I don't think you will be seeing any Treos, cellphones, or the more compact handheld devices sporting CF anytime soon. The move will be towards smaller physical size
RE: This is reason # 600 why CompactFlash simply destroys SD...
Solid state memory is much better technology and it comes at smaller size every day, microdrive is prone do shock damage, solid memory not, and its technology is maturing.
RE: This is reason # 600 why CompactFlash simply destroys SD...
Why turn this into a Sony vs. Palm debate? Sounds just like a troll. The UX-50 doesn't even have CF expansion. Rather it has a single memory stick slot.
RE: This is reason # 600 why CompactFlash simply destroys SD...
Why turn this into a Sony vs. Palm debate? Sounds just like a troll. The UX-50 doesn't even have CF expansion. Rather it has a single memory stick slot.
Since it appears that English is not your first language, I would suggest you ask someone to explain the original post to you.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
Has anyone been willing to try an MMC card?
This would prove a couple of things:
1) If it's a controller issue, specifically dealing with corrupting sectors, tracks, or clusters, it should be duplicated on both SD and MMC.
2) If it's an overvoltage issue, it's theoretically repeatable on an MMC card.
Ideas/Thoughts?
RE: Has anyone been willing to try an MMC card?
problem). I had used this card in an m505 since it came out without a single incident.
I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
I tried moving the card back to my Tungsten T, but it's too late - the card is totally DOA. It started out taking a very long time writing to the SD card, then I couldn't HotSync data to the card, then - finally - the card's dead.
I don't care whose fault it is Sandisk's or Palm's, but in addition to correcting the problem, I'd better get a free replacement card for all my trouble.
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
Waiting for my T3 to arrive, I would like to know if it will be safe to have the card purely for reading from it (for example mp3 files) or if I'd better forget the card altogether until a solution comes up.
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
Still, even data accesses were very slow. I'd hold off on putting any SD Card in there until Palm provides a fix or issues a recall.
I just received an e-mail from Palm Support, and they avoided the topic of providing a replacement SD card. Regardless, I hope this issue is handled soon.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much for your inquiry. I understand that the 256 Meg SanDisk Expansion card was damaged when you tried to use it with the Palm(TM) Tungsten(TM) T3 handheld. I realize your concern and the inconvenience caused to you due to this issue.
At this time, Palm is well aware of an issue wherein some makes of SD cards do not get recognized on the Palm Tungsten T3 handheld. This issue has been escalated to level 3 technical agents and they are researching on this case. To help us troubleshoot this issue better, you will need to provide the following information to us:
1. Make of your SD card.
2. Serial no. of your SD card.
3. Last action performed with your SD card before it became
unrecognized.
Please be informed that Palm cannot provide an ETA when a fix would be available. Please keep checking Palm site regularly for future updates on this at:
I have forwarded your comments to the appropriate department for review. Please feel free to continue sharing your comments or concerns with us in the future.
We, at Palm, Inc., are committed to providing you with the best possible service. We look forward to assisting you in any way possible.
For further questions you may send another e-mail message or use our telephone support at:
(847) 262- PALM (7256)
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
"Thank you for the information provided. We have forwarded your comments
to the appropriate department for review.
A patch will soon be released to resolve the issue that you are
currently experiencing. Your patience in this matter is highly
appreciated.
Unfortunately, I am unable to comment regarding the exact date when it
will be available. You will need to check the URL below occasionally for
updates:"
A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
I've used it in several T3s. So far no problem.
I did not write *to* it, however, just read *from*.
Is the frying taking place during write-tos?
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
There were a lot of software conflicts and hard resets and then the card was dead - no warnings. I bought the card from the same shop I bought the T3 off and he gave me a new card under warranty - the big bonus of paying retail $ at your local store!
The new card SanDiskSD256 was loaded with data from my backup file on the Win98PC and promptly had the same problem as many of you when doing a BackupBuddy VFS backup to the card - the Backup directory was corrupted & the card would not work in my Win98 box or the T or T3 - I took the card to work and managed to delete the problem directory in a WinNT4 PC - the card is now OK!
The same SanDisk SD256Mb card is working "perfectly" in the T3 after being reformatted (a very brief event) in the T3 and having all major software installed from HotSync. I can read all data and write to the card with no problem although I am not doing any VFS backups.
From all that I think that the problem is with the software on the T3 and that software's interaction with the SD slot and that different XScale Processor. I see the PocketPC crowd also moaning about card problems in devices with the same processor.
Palm have replyed to my Support complaint with: At this time, Palm is well aware of an issue wherein some makes of SD cards do not get recognized on the Palm Tungsten T3 handheld. This issue has been escalated to level 3 technical agents and they are researching on this case. Palm would appreciate help from customers to understand and isolate instances where Palm Tungsten T3 handhelds may not have recognized SD cards. Palm has received customer inquiries on this subject and is expediting resolution. I have forwarded your comments to the appropriate department for review.
So put your complaint details directly to Palm here:
http://www.palmone.com/us/support/contact/email_support.html
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
Level 3?
By now this should have reached at least Level 5.
Why don't they just spend a few thousand dollars and hire HandEra to fix it before more damage is done? If each day of delay causes a few thousand dollars more of toasted SD cards (which Palm is going to have to compensate owners for), futzing around isn't a very cost-effective solution.
How much has this latest disaster cost Palm already? $10,000? $100,000? $1,000,000?
I think I'm going to let others have the pleasure of beta testing for me for the next few weeks. Thank you to those brave souls here who have posted their experiences and saved a lot of people from similar problems.
Maybe the Governator Arnold Schwartzenegger can help Palm...
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: I don't care whose fault it is - FIX IT!
It's not the SD's fault, if ya ask me.
I don't think it's the media, because it's clearly cross brand and size, and isn't happening to everyone.
Palm should be asking for the T3 serial number too, since it's probably a T3 problem. If it's hardware, they might be able to better isolate the issue, since some people are having no problem at all.
Alternative
================================
PDAs rule the world !
It takes a worried Palm...
It takes a worried Palm to sing a worried song.
What serial number?
RE: What serial number?
I am returning my T3 today.
"Life is Too Short"
Quality Control
W.W.M.D.? (What Would Michael (Mace) Do?)
Early adopters are returning their T³s, SD cards are being toasted left, right and center, concerned citizens and Palm Faithful are holding off on T³ purchases until they can be reassured that their SD cards will not spontaneously combust. Still no official word from Palm addressing the "issue". No advice on compensation for destroyed SD cards. No indication as to what the problem is due to. No word on when it will be fixed.
Mr. Mace: The sheep need direction. W.W.M.D.?
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: W.W.M.D.? (What Would Michael (Mace) Do?)
At the very least, Palm should have a notice on their website advising T³ owners of a potential "issue" and
warning them to not use their SD cards until this is all sorted out. That's the kind of proactive customer service Palm used to provide three or four years ago.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
Does the Treo 600 also fry SD cards?
I hope Palm gets this resolved quickly. The Treo 600 ranks with the USR Pilot 1000, TRGpro and CLIE UX-50 as breakthrough products in handheld computing. (The Palm V and T|T were also great designs, but not really true "breakthroughs".) If Palm markets it right, the new Treo should become a "must have" tool for business professionals.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
Never buy until after 4 weeks
But the first month of any new release is when most of the big Gotchas surface.
So carp about me not putting my money down on the T3 yet -- but the four weeks grace period isn't over.
And that grace period is now extended until PalmOne diagnoses and resolves this problem. Hurry, PalmOne!
RE: Never buy until after 4 weeks
You're going to be looking at that mono screen for a loooong time before you suck it up and find out everything isn't exactly perfect. The T3 is damn well near it, so don't go cheap and buy a Sandisk or Panasonic. Go Lexar. Problem solved.
Or do you really prefer mono 160x160 and Memory Stick and are too afraid to admit it?
-Bosco
RE: Never buy until after 4 weeks
Yeah, that's the ticket! I'll be sitting right next to Rush Limbaugh as we battle our addictions.
Eeeew!
Tungsten E issues
This could be isolated, but who knows?
"I picked a the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!" Airplane
RE: I am not a happy camper
The second Hot Sync with my T3 and my card is cooked; makes me believe it’s Palms problem.
I am not a happy camper.
"Life is Too Short"
RE: Tungsten E issues
Try reformatting the card with a desktop card reader or in another device. Once/if you do that, wait until Palm announces its solution (patch/recall) before you use the SD card again.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: Tungsten E issues
I spoke to some managers that work for a couple of the Office supply Depots that sell Staples and they've had no problems.
As always, your mileage may vary and take everything on the Internet with a boulder of salt.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
It's not just big cards!
RE: It's not just big cards!
RE: It's not just big cards!
RE: It's not just big cards!
Is there reason to recall the Tungsten T3
the info
THE ONE
Which SD cards get toasted?
Seems there are people with working cards and others that are toasting all sizes and brands.
Have you had your Palm Satisfaction Survey Yet?
You can guess the answers (0)as I am still waiting for a solution!
We need to keep the pressure on Palm with prominent public mainstream news articles outlining these problems plus Palm now knows enough about the problem to be warning new T3 purchasers that there are issues and to be careful with your expensive memory cards.
Anyone with good mainstream press contacts?
Screens may also be a problem
http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=1678&showComments=true
Brian
Shades of the m505?
By the way, while researching an article about Palm that I wrote last year, I found out the total number of Chinese cities is 666. Hmmmm...
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: Screens may also be a problem
I don't know, one minute people are whingeing about the battery life, the next thing they are complaining that the screen is not bright enough to be visible in the sahara at midday.
You can't have your cake etc...
Tungsten t3 screen
I am interesting to by the SLC 760 Zaurus ,why not a Palm os 6 whit a clamshell design like that one.
The SLC 760 is a Linux base pda or mini-laptop,if it would have been a Palm i would already have it.
Have a nice day.
would like to have a "Palm tablet" pda larger screen input by writing on the screen
Docs to Go 6 link?
Fatal Alert
MemoryMgr.c, Line:3651, Free Handle
and have to do a soft reset. Maybe DTG6 is causing part of the problem?
RE: Docs to Go 6 link?
I'm not a smartass in real life, I just portray one on the web.
SDCard issues
Since hearing of the "frying" issues, I have been real carefull and keeping the card out if the T3 as much as possible. I use gps and mapopolis and it seems to get the maps out of the card with no problem. But I only put the card in when I really need it and DO NOT sync with it in. So far I have saved the cards I now have from burning. FYI
If you don't expect anything...
you won't be disappointed
MKD
Palm says thanks, but no thanks for SD serial num
From Palm Support:
Thank you very much for your inquiry. I understand that you are unable to use the Sandisk 512MB SD card with your Palm(TM) Tungsten(TM) T3 handheld. I appreciate your initiative to resolve the current issue by providing a detailed description. However, I would like inform you that currently, we have been informed about this issue being faced by many of our esteemed customers, while using the Sandisk SD card with the Palm Tungsten T3 handheld. Palm Engineers are working on this issue. Currently, there is no patch update to fix this issue, I suggest that you visit the Palm web site regularly for updates, as all the anouncement are posted in the web site iteslf.
new SD from Sandisk?
has anybody noticed that Sandisk offers two different kinds of SD cards? I don't know if this is recent, but their website offers "SD Expansion Cards" and "SD Cards" (see http://www.sandisk.com/consumer/). The first one seems to be for Palm devices explicitely.
Moreover, in the description of the "SD Expansion Card", they write:"Though no one likes to think about it, data loss due to handheld or computer failure does happen. An expansion card with a backup utility such as Backup BuddyVFS can restore your Palm OS-based organizer's data almost immediately."
Does anybody know if this is related to the T3-SD issues?
...I am suffering from not ordering a T3 as long as no official solution is announced.
RE: new SD from Sandisk?
Keep reading the whole page including:
Advanced Features:
* Ready to go out of the box. No need to search the web, download, and synchronize
* Fully featured BackupBuddyVFS utility offers file-by-file, time-of-day, last modified backups, unattended and more
* Extra capacity allows for storage of e-mails, photos, music, games and more
* Encryption capabilities ensure data is secure, even if the card is lost
Same problem with the Zire ??
Palm Zire 71 SD/SDIO Update
"This update includes the following fixes for these issues:
Some 128MB SD cards fail to read after repeated use.
Some 64MB Memory cards fails to write.
Problems using some newer Margi Presenter-to-Go cards including card not recognized, device hang or blank screen on card insertion/removal."
I hope they get a patch out for the T3 and SOON.
I'm grasping at straws here...
I was going thru the file list on my Palm m515 using the freeware Filez app and comparing it with my Backup directory. And I noticed a file called SlotDriver__SDIO-sdsd.PRC, which I suspect was installed when I ran the file manager update at http://www.palmone.com/us/support/downloads/file_manager_update.html .
Is it possible that the SD card problems associated with the T3 currently is due to upgrading from earlier Palm models when users inadvertently install an incompatible driver file into their T3's?
I imagine most users who upgrade from earlier Palm PDAs would just sync desktop-to-handheld and trust in a higher power.
Like I said, methinks I'm grasping at straws!
RE: I'm grasping at straws here...
RE: I'm grasping at straws here...
Anyways, Palmone came back to me with following reply when I asked them about this:
"Thank you very much for your feedback. At this time, Palm, Inc. is well aware of an issue wherein some makes of SD cards do not get recognized on the Palm(TM) Tungsten T3 handheld. This issue has been escalated to level 3 technical agents and they are researching on this case. I do not believe that the failure of the SD cards on the Palm Tungsten T3 handheld is accountable due to an incompatible file being installed on the Palm handheld. "
"However, I do appreciate the input provided by you. It is always beneficial to us when our esteemed customers end up providing us with vital information which could get very easily verlooked by our Technical team."
The gospel truth, I guess... until further notice.
Many thanks for your views, tho'.
RE: I'm grasping at straws here...
Is Panasonic SD Card safe?
RE: Is Panasonic SD Card safe?
RE: Is Panasonic SD Card safe?
I had NO problems with the sandisk cards UNTIL I decided to upgrade my PalmDesktop. At that point everything fell to pieces.
SD 128, Secure Digital Card, Sandisk device id
SD128_68D159C2430207
I cant get it to format on my PC using the PNY interface, and the format never ends if I try to format it on my PDA.
The PDA is a Tungsten T3, and my PC is XP home edition.
Having used the cards heavily since I got the T3, and the problem started immediately on installing the latest Palm desktop, I suggest that the new desktop or the new hotsync are a factor.
Simon
SD Card Problems with T3
New T3er.
perhaps a new solution
T3 owners: RELAX.
That's because if they word their statements carelessly, the next thing you know, a bunch of idiots will try to sue them, using Palm's "admission" of a problem as the basis of the suit. Welcome to America, comrade.
I suggest we start talking about three words they might recognize. Class action lawsuit.
Spoken like a true American...
I know Palm sees me as only one person, one voice, and one complaint. I am convinced that is how they see all of you as well. There is strength in numbers and I purpose (sic) we use our numbers to get more than the typical “canned” response.
Alone, we are weak. Together, our powers can defeat the evil kung-fu of Shaolin Master Palm...
I am going to start to make contacts for representation for myself, if anyone has feedback or suggestions I would appreciate hearing it.
Suggestion: be patient. The problems will be dealt with very soon and you will receive the appropriate compensation.
If you do not understand my frustration, then look at the $400.00 device you probably have near you and ask yourself, is that the solid, dependable device Palm advertises, and does it do everything Palm claims. Mine does not.
We feel your pain. Really. But I suggest you read your T³ warranty very carefully. Then you'll understand why lawyers run America.
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
RE: perhaps a new solution
RE: perhaps a new solution
I do understand how you feel - while for most people losing files is merely an annoyance that can easily be attenuated - assuming they have made a recent backup with a card reader - it's another matter to have your PDA fail when you most need it at work.
Two lessons here:
- always back up critical data
- early adoption + power usage = tempting fate. Can I interest you in something in the CLIE line, dknight-san?
Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™
SD Card Erasure
Let's not be in a hurry to nag at palmOne; be more careful which disks you buy and I recommend Lexar.
Best regards to all/Paul
RE: SD Card Erasure
From my earlier statement. Sure, I agree, maybe its not palm...NOT. The card worked fine in my TT before, so today after the card failed again from moving files around on the T3 I formatted it, put it back in the original TT and moved the very same group of files around on the very same card OVER THIRTY TIMES without failure. Then I put it in the T3 and moved a couple files with promptly killed it. Then I went to Best Buy and tried this in every palm os device they had available. Anyone want to guess which display unit corrupted the card? I'll save you the trouble, it was the last one I tried and it was a T3. There is now absolutely no doubt in my mind that the card is not at fault. Every one says that sandisk makes crappy cards, but it works in every other device I've ever tried it in, including different mp3 players, cameras, as well as palms.
RE: SD Card Erasure
Hama sd card
After that my TT3 toasted a 64mb sandisk I purchased and stressed a 64mb sd Hama(??? Toshiba ?) made in Taiwan.
It works very very well, no problem.
Exceptional results at VFSMark test:
File Create: 764%
File Delete: 1214%
File Write: 65%
File Read: 748%
File Seek: 1311%
DB Export: 307%
DB Import: 1230%
Record Access: 928%
Resource Access: 914%
VFSMark: 831
SD Card Damaged by Tungsten T3
THE CUSTOMER SUPPORT DOESNT RESPOND!!!
PLS ADVISE
Palm release bug fixes
I have not tried these yet, as I am still holding off buying a T3 until I hear that these work !
http://www.palmone.com/us/support/downloads/tungstent3/t3_update.html
RE: Palm release bug fixes
Yes I have a T3. I also have the T3 Optimizer installed but I disabled it and rebooted before installing the patch.
RE: Palm release bug fixes
The bug fix for the bug fix for the bug fix will be released in four weeks.
The b...
RE: Palm release bug fixes
JLM
RE: Palm release bug fixes
JLM
This really inspires confidence, Palm. Way to go. Looks like nothing is going to stop this company from imploding. I'll give them one year - max - before they're history.
Palm's T³ fix - no admission of responsibility!
Their lawyers must have written this:
palmOne, Inc. encourages all owners of the Tungsten T3 who plan to use SD cards at any time to upgrade their handheld using the software update below. This update aids in the transfer of data to certain SD cards, in addition to other updates.
palmOne recommends that you reformat your SD card after applying this software update. If the card has been or continues to be unresponsive after taking both of these steps, please contact the SD card manufacturer directly as there are problems with the card beyond palmOne's control.
The T3Update.prc is a software update for the Tungsten T3 handheld which, in addition to aiding in data transfer to SD cards, reduces unnecessary audio interrupts which may appear to effect performance.
Lexar 256 Fixed
So I did a scandisk to the SD and errors were found. After putting back, the Palm still don't recognize the card.
I reset the Palm and..... The card was recognized normally again. I put back my mp3's and all works fine.
What happened?
I remembered to put some files in the SD one day before, and unplug the reader before stopping it. So the card got corrupted. Then the Palm detected the card corrupted but it still keep in memory that, no matter the card was fixed.. weired thing :P
Maybe this help
Error 0x2908 on Palm TX w/ BackupMan
Should I take the sdmc Sandisk card back to the store??
Tom - slappy044@yahoo.com
Latest Comments
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SanDisk!
Even if it isn't the fault of the cards, how did this happen? Palm has had over two years of experience with SD. Some beta tester must have spotted this problem somewhere along the line.
-Bosco