 |
    Comments on: PalmSource Drops Mac Synchronization in Cobaltupdated In a surprise announcement at the developer conference, PalmSource revealed that Palm OS Cobalt will no longer offer synchronization with the Mac OS. This marks a departure as previous versions of the Palm OS had long shipped with Mac compatible hotsync software. update: PalmSource has issued a statement clarifying their position on the issue.
Detailed Comment View (233 Total Comments)
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PIC is not responsible for them in any way. login or register for free in order to post comments.  RE: Big mistake
I'm glad I ditched the Mac years ago. But I agree this is not good. I've come across many people who've wanted to buy CLIEs and went with Palm due to the lack of Mac sync software. Now I wonder how many fomer PalmOS users will be interested in this: RE: Big mistake
I wish Palm had framed things in a positive light. Mark/Space is an excellent company, and I have faith their product will be superb. Palm's Mac PIM support has been mediocre at best for years. (especially regarding fields on the desktop not matching fields on the Palm, and therefore not syncing.) It will be unfortunate to have to pay extra for a Mac interface, but it will be an improvement. It seems that Palm is trying to alienate Mac users in the way it made its announcement. Certainly not a goodwill gesture. RE: Big mistakebleedingedge @ 2/11/2004 7:59:29 PM #
Wow, Mikecane, from all of your previous posts about handhelds you seemed like a bright guy. Would have thought you were a Mac person. Oh well. Lame... for you. : ) I have read many posts on Mac forums about this announcement. Many have said they will never buy Palm again - some, like me, after 6 or more years of loyalty. Many have also said smartphones will be the way to go now or iPod plus mobile phone. This isn't an option for me. I do a lot more with my handheld than keep a few addresses and memos. I keep around ten full length medical refences in there and consult them to help me care for hundreds of patients each month. Thousands of doctors do this and the number grows daily. Within this community I'll venture to guess that Mac users number more than 3% as is often quoted for the general public. I hope the future is bright for us as far as handheld computing and Mac syncing - for us and our patients. RE: Big mistake
I just had to speak out, too. PalmSource, now this is truly a different Palm company, far from the one that we used to know. When I first read that OS 6 will be made "more Outlook" compatible, I was a little worried, but just didn't think PalmSource would be that stupid... Yes, I couldn't find a better adjustive. PalmSource is the software-only company, and it's supposed to concentrate and be good at writing its software, and it has under its wings a lot of potentials with the successful Palm OS 5 and the technology from Be OS. But now, this decision really really makes them look bad. Following Microsoft Outlook so blindly that they decide to, in the next major upgrade, drop support entirely for the much more user friendly and well-designed Mac OS X? And it is from the company that created and defined the first truly useful PDA? Even when I was on a PC, I didn't use Outlook despite its many many features, and it's not that I haven't tried. I converted to Outlook and I really tried to like it, for a few times. Palm OS could have benefited from having the entire Mac market... I wonder who is responsible for this decision, and I wonder if this person/group will be able to take the long term consequences of this decision... RE: Big mistake
>>>Wow, Mikecane, from all of your previous posts about handhelds you seemed like a bright guy. Would have thought you were a Mac person. For the longest time I was. But I got sick of asking, "Is there a MAC VERSION of that?" Let Steve Jobs go ask. Just because I'm using Gates's stuff doesn't mean I *like* it. I wish Mac had the larger market share. RE: Big mistakeGlory Daze @ 2/12/2004 1:01:31 AM #
I am a Mac user. Longer than a Palm user. Have been looking at Mac laptops but figured I'd upgrade to the new Palm when one came out. Not gonna happen now. I'll just keep the old Tungsten T for my pocket and get a new laptop. Kinda tired of messin' with the small screen for work anyway. Thanks Palm ... for nothing. RE: Big mistake, yeah
Why drop Mac support so late? Should have dropped it two to three years ago! Mac is such an out dated. Using two CPUs to do one CPU's job. lol. RE: Big mistake
Hehe that's funny, having dual processors is a bad thing? LOL dude, get a clue! Give me a dual processor 64bit Mac with a 1GHz front side bus over your Pentium any day of the week :) -- Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ? RE: Big mistake
I agree, this is a big mistake by Palm. I utilize both Macs and PC's, however, I primarily use my Palm with the Mac OS. (My laptop is a Mac.) Perhaps Apple will now consider an Apple branded and produced PDA. Heck, do for PDA's what they did to the MP3 market with the iPod. If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3 RE: Big mistakeSaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 9:00:36 AM #
The problem with PalmSource vs. Palm is how you all confuse them! PalmSource makes the OS, and they have dropped Mac support. HOWEVER Palm, a totally different company, makes handhelds and can choose to bundle Mac sync software if they so choose. In fact Palm in the Tungsten T3 and E has included substantal OS revisions that PalmSource DID NOT supply. It is VERY possible that Palm will include Mac sync software, although not software produce by PalmSource. RE: Big mistake
Yes PalmSource and PalmOne are different companies and the point is PalmOne is now primarily a hardware company, they are no longer in the business of writing software, so any lack of support from PalmSource is going to be a blow which ever way you look at it. -- Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ? RE: Big mistakeacaltabiano @ 2/12/2004 11:39:23 AM #
BOOOOO!!! BOOOOOOOO!!!!! Didn't this company start out as an independent-minded organization determined to "change" the way we did our computing? Weren't they supposed to be so infuential and Innovative as to make other platforms conform to them? Now, like sheep, they are giving in and following the herd. The PD for PC already sucks. It runs hella better on my Mac than it ever did on the PC, and is much more functional. But, now, those days are gone. Yeah, keep "innovating," palm. Good work. You suck. How long 'till you accept a buyout from MS and become PPC? I have seen it printed elsewhere that while the Mac marketshare is reletively small, a large portion of Palm users are indeed Mac users. Alienating your base, eh? Going to the Dark Side, eh? I HOPE Apple devises their own PDA again. RE: Big mistakeSaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 12:39:52 PM #
rory: PalmOne is primary focused on hardware but just like Sony they will continue to provide software that makes their handhelds unique. Clie has a new organizer suite with their handhelds, PalmOne has been providing new PIM enhancements not made by PalmSource. Based on some preliminary word from PalmOne they have stated THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT MAC USERS IN THEIR COBALT HANDHELDS. RE: Big mistake
i don't know if you gyus know this but currently the t3's don't support the latest version of mac os x. it looks like palmone has dropped the ball on mac's too RE: Big mistakea_nonamiss @ 2/12/2004 2:42:21 PM #
::quote:: wendo @ 2/12/2004 6:26:44 AM wrote: I agree, this is a big mistake by Palm. I utilize both Macs and PC's, however, I primarily use my Palm with the Mac OS. (My laptop is a Mac.) Perhaps Apple will now consider an Apple branded and produced PDA. Heck, do for PDA's what they did to the MP3 market with the iPod. If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. ::End Quote:: Heh that's kinda funny. You see, if you were a true geek up on your computer history, you'd know that Apple *INVENTED* the PDA in the early 1990's. They sunk tons of money into R&D for the Apple Newton, which was unfortunately a huge flop for the company and was one of the factors that almost sunk them. Ironically, while it was never successful, it was the inspiration for the Palm company, who set out to design a leaner, faster and smaller device. They created the Palm Pilot and the rest is history. Palm Pilot 1000 > Palm Pilot Professional > Palm III > Palm M100 > Sony Clié PEG-T415 > Palm T|T3 RE: Big mistake
> Mac is such an out dated. Using two CPUs to do one CPU's job. lol. Yeah, like I mean I've been using dual CPU systems with Windows NT/XP for years now. Very useful when Windows lets an app run amuck on the system, then I might just barely have enough CPU left to kill the app without having to boot the system. LOL. Windoze rulez dude! As mikecane put it, "I'm glad I ditched Windows a month ago." Err, maybe that isn't what he said. RE: Big mistake
"Palm OS could have benefited from having the entire Mac market..." Yeah, I agree. All 8 of you. RE: Big mistake
And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA. RE: Big mistake
"I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped." The zeolots aren't restricted to the macintosh camp. I develop on both PC and Mac machines and have to say I see a lot more zeolots on the PC side. As for Palmsource not supporting Mac? I'll hold my opinion to see what PalmOne does. RE: Big mistakeMichael Mace @ 2/12/2004 6:26:32 PM #
Midge wrote: >>I wish Palm had framed things in a positive light. Mark/Space is an excellent company, and I have faith their product will be superb.
We appreciate all the comments folks are making, and we are listening. The company asked me to post the comment below: "PalmSource is fortunate to have a great Palm OS developer community who provide solutions for Macintosh compatibility today. Palm OS provides an open and flexible architecture and allows its licensees to decide whether to ship a Mac compatibility solution with their Palm Powered device. (One such solution is provided by Mark/Space.) We are continuing our efforts with Apple to provide compatibility between Palm OS and Macintosh." Mike RE: Big mistake
> "Yeah, I agree. All 8 of you." Haha, count again. I don't know about you, but I would be pretty happy to sell a product and have the entire Mac market all to myself. Zillions of Windows out there does not change this; it's a separate opportunity. It shouldn't be an "either-or": PalmSource could have had the Mac market and keep on competing with Pocket PC on Windows. --- For a major upgrade, saying that they drop support entirely for one platform, and "follow" another (a competitor!), has so many negative effects, psychological and otherwise. Since Cobalt is for the high-end, they could have just ditched pre-OS X support and concentrate on OS X and beyond. Oh well... --- > "And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA." I hope it was not directed at me, but if so: Did I suggest anything like that? If it makes you feel better, I have more Windows machines then Macs here... ;) RE: Big mistake
ray00pal, you don't know what you're talking about. Two processors is definately better than one. I like macs. One Palm to rule them all! RE: Big mistake
Yes, Arthur, I'm fully aware that Apple kick started the PDA movement with the Newton.
I do appreciate you taking the time to comment here regarding the change regarding native Macintosh support. Yes, the fact that Mark Space develops drivers for the Mac is advantageous. However, the fact that built in native support will not exist in Cobalt is disconcerting nonetheless. As a Palm supporter since my first Palm 5000, the lack of Mac support in future OS's will make me re-evaluate whether I will continue to buy PalmSource/PalmOne products. Instead of always upgrading within the Palm product matrix, I will now scrutinize other platforms since the Palm OS no longer offers a compelling benefit over other Handheld OS's for users who use a Mac to sync with. I understand the decision to do it, I'm not naive. However, I wonder if the full consequences of this decision were truly realized before this decision was made. We shall see... Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3 RE: Big mistake
In agreement: Wow. Palm dropping native Mac support. Not good for Palm or Apple and a little too cozy with Microsoft. *shudder* RE: Big mistake
>>>As mikecane put it, "I'm glad I ditched Windows a month ago." Err, maybe that isn't what he said. ganoe: Switch to what?! Linux? Despite the outcry here, Mac users are a minority on PIC too. About an hour ago, BBC World Service reported that portions of Windows source code has been leaked onto the Net. Which version and how much has not ben specified. But perhaps this could be a serious blow to MS... I wouldn't mourn if it was a fatal blow! RE: Big mistake
This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are: 1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and 2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well, this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company. On a personal level, Mark/Space will probably provide an implementation on OS X that is better than any PalmSource solution on Windows (with Outlook as the driving force???!!!!). I languished with Palm on Win95, 98 and XP until I went back to the Mac (having been battered by crashes, viruses, poorly written programs, conflicts). The Mark/Space Missing Sync provided interfaces with iPhoto, iTunes, etc. If they add email, and all the reported features, it might end up the best solution on any platform. Apple is DEAD in enterprise/corporate world
This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are: 1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and 2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well, this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company. Cut the BS, Junior. Organizations like standards and Windows is the standard. Whether or not it deserves to be. I suppose you and your coven of "others who feel the same way also" will also be recommending Netscape, WordPerfect, Eudora and Lotus 1-2-3 for your Fortune 500 companies? Be honest: you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll.
RE: Big mistake
> ganoe: Switch to what?! Linux? Switched to Mac last month. I got tired of waiting to easily do in Windows what I could do in Unix over a decade ago. RE: Big mistake
"It shouldn't be an 'either-or'" I agree. I didn't say Windows was superior. MS should have more competition, but to echo mikecane's words, the main reason I bought a PC in the first place was because when I walked into computer stores there was always a huge section of software and hardware for PCs - including things I wanted - and a little corner display of Mac stuff that was mildly interesting. > "And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA." I hope it was not directed at me..." It wasn't directed at anyone, just an observation based on my experience. RE: Big mistake
>>"If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat."<< What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac? You know, overpriced, underpowered, and using 3 year-old technology. To this day, while it may have saved Apple's skin, I cannot respect taking advantage of gullible buyers by adding "pretty colors" to and charging full price for a product that was essentially the Mac of 3 years previous. What a rip-off. You would buy that PDA if it came out? Or would you expect Jobs and Co. to actually produce something modern and capable? If your choice is the former over the latter, I suggest buying the Newton off eBay (at least then you won't pay today's prices for yesterday's technology). Me, I would prefer something more akin to the funcionality of OSX on the PDA, but not in PPC fashion. >>"Didn't this company start out as an independent-minded organization determined to "change" the way we did our computing? Weren't they supposed to be so infuential and Innovative as to make other platforms conform to them? Now, like sheep, they are giving in and following the herd. The PD for PC already sucks. It runs hella better on my Mac than it ever did on the PC, and is much more functional. But, now, those days are gone. Yeah, keep "innovating," palm. Good work. You suck. How long 'till you accept a buyout from MS and become PPC? I have seen it printed elsewhere that while the Mac marketshare is reletively small, a large portion of Palm users are indeed Mac users. Alienating your base, eh? Going to the Dark Side, eh? I HOPE Apple devises their own PDA again."<< Hmm...before your emotional and poorly thought out rant, I believed that Mac users were generally intelligent and rational people. Please don't try to prove that impression wrong a second time. >>"However, the fact that built in native support will not exist in Cobalt is disconcerting nonetheless. As a Palm supporter since my first Palm 5000, the lack of Mac support in future OS's will make me re-evaluate whether I will continue to buy PalmSource/PalmOne products. Instead of always upgrading within the Palm product matrix, I will now scrutinize other platforms since the Palm OS no longer offers a compelling benefit over other Handheld OS's for users who use a Mac to sync with."<< Perhaps you should re-evaluate that position. Let's think about the only real alternative at the moment, PPC, or Winblows Mobile, or whatever they want to call it these days. PalmOS is easy to use, has a very intuitive interface, is powerful, and can get the work done. All of the qualities you bought you Mac for. So you are telling me that because PalmSource left it to the 3rd parties (who often do a better job, BTW) to create a program to sync, you will go look at PPC, which doesn't sync with Mac out of the box either, and adds a plethora of it's own problems and usability issues? Please. With this kind of logic as it's main user base, Apple really is in trouble. >>"This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are: 1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and 2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well, this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company."<< You're considering Macs for enterprise use? Unless you are a graphics shop, you better reconsider before you do something that loses you your job. Mac OSX has a lot going for it on the consumer level, but for most enterprises it isn't there yet. Additionally, while almost nobody likes it (myself included), MS is the maker/producer of the products that are the defacto standard for enterprises at the moment, meaning you want compatibility with the organizations your company does business with, or you don't do business. Period. As far as saying that PalmSource will "miss out on customers" like yourself, let me make a couple of points (and I'll go slow so you can understand): 1.)PalmSource only has licensees for customers, not individuals like yourself. Unless you are going to manufacture and market a PDA the runs PalmOS, you as an individual are inconsequential to PalmSource. Licensees make the handheld units that you will buy despite your statment, because:... 2.)...the only real alternative out there right now is Pocket PC. Yeah, you're going to buy those because PalmSource snubbed your pet OS and pissed you off. Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion. I'd much rather see a few reasonable folks here than a lot of zealots who don't bother to think before they speak. To finish off this second point, I'll refer you to the statement above, where I mention that PalmOS has all of the advantages that you ostensibly love Macs for. While I generally disagree with "the emoticon" (aka ;-)) who is every bit as retarded, he makes a point before he goes into his psychotic episode of insults. Windows/Exchage are the defacto standards, and that's what most businesses like to see, whether it's the best product or not. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. RE: Big mistake
Sean: You're way out on a number of points which I'd like to correct you on: "What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac? You know, overpriced, underpowered, and using 3 year-old technology. To this day, while it may have saved Apple's skin, I cannot respect taking advantage of gullible buyers by adding "pretty colors" to and charging full price for a product that was essentially the Mac of 3 years previous." Obviously it's kind of silly to say you will buy something as soon a manufacturer announces it regardless of specs etc, but I'd take issue with your comments on the iMac. It's not designed for power users, it's designed for people who want a computer which they can take out of the box, plug-in and be on the Internet within 10 minutes, who don't want to worry about viruses and worms trashing their computer every week etc. And honestly, the average home user doesn't need a 3GHz machine to surf the web, write e-mail, manage digital photos or listen to music. The argument about 'power' could easily be levied at Palm devices. Sure you can now get them with fast CPUs, but until OS 6 is out you can't make use of that extra processing power for anything particularly useful. I will also remind you that Apple's last Newton PDA, discontinued in 1998, had a 166MHz ARM processor in, considerably faster than most Palms until recently, and still faster than Zire 71, T|E etc, so even if they did use 3 year old technology it would easily be comparable to a current Palm device. With regards to the user suggesting they switch to PPC, why not? If they have to use a 3rd party utility to sync with Palm OS, why not use one for PPC? I agree that the user interface is inferior to Palm OS, but they are cheaper and faster than Palms and tend to have better expandability. As most PC users demonstrate, these are clearly trade offs people are happy to make or Apple would be the defacto desktop standard. "You're considering Macs for enterprise use? Unless you are a graphics shop, you better reconsider before you do something that loses you your job." I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about here. What do you think enterprises use their servers for? File storage, e-mail, directory services, web/intranet hosting? Mac OS X Server can do all these things really well and happily works in a cross platform environment with NO per-user costs and while being much easier to use than a Linux server. Anyone who reads business oriented technology sites is well aware of the increasingly large waves Apple is creating in that sector. Windows on the desktop doesn't mean necessarily Windows in the server room. "Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion. I'd much rather see a few reasonable folks here than a lot of zealots who don't bother to think before they speak." Hello? Here you are accusing Mac users of being zealots because of their choice of computer, and here you are being a Palm zealot because someone might switch to what you consider is an inferior PDA. If anything I would expect Palm users to be able to emphasize with what Mac users are put through for not going along with the juggernaut of mediocrity. RE: Big mistake
;-) said, “Cut the BS, Junior. Organizations like standards and Windows is the standard.” Being rude and condescending doesn’t help your case one bit. In fact, you sound like the child given time on daddy’s computer. Be adult and have a grown up conversation by debating the issue, not insulting the person with opposing opinions. As is evidenced, no one on this site takes you very seriously because of your presentation. Secondly, just because organizations like standards and Windows is a majority standard doesn’t discount the fact that many companies (even non-graphic houses) are considering Mac OS X as an alternative to Windows and Linux. Is the base large? No, obviously, but it is slowly growing. But OS X’s adoption rate is still better than most people anticipated. ;-) also said, “Be honest: you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll.” Again, one would be willing to consider your points and opinions with more attention if you chose to address others with more respect than shown here. One could argue that the child in the basement is you. === Wollombi said, “What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac?” First of all, I am not blind nor naïve. You chose to take seriously an obvious overstatement if Apple released an Apple PDA. The point I was trying to make was that if Apple were to release a PDA I would seriously consider purchasing one. However, before laying the money down, I wouldn’t just buy it without researching its specifications, evaluating whether it fit my needs, and how well it integrated into my computer system(s). As a long time purchaser of many computer platforms I do my research before spending my money. As to your comments about the iMac, it shows how little you know the iMac and what it’s purpose is in Apple’s retail strategy. Someone addressed this better than I and those comments are above. The second quote you reference wasn’t from me, though one wouldn’t know that since you weren’t careful in attributing quotes. However, I will comment on what you said; Wollombi also said, “Hmm...before your emotional and poorly thought out rant, I believed that Mac users were generally intelligent and rational people. Please don't try to prove that impression wrong a second time.” As I said above, insulting the people your debating with is not a strong tactic. More than naught it only weakens your argument and makes it sound as though you’re not debating others seriously; only that your primary purpose is to insult and condescend. Wollombi went on to further say, “Perhaps you should re-evaluate that position. Let's think about the only real alternative at the moment, PPC, or Winblows Mobile, or whatever they want to call it these days.” Why do I need to re-evaluate my position and who are you to tell me to do so? Because Palm OS Cobalt will not offer native support for Macs, it does nothing to distinguish itself from the Windows Mobile platform; as well as other, less popular, platforms such as Symbian. Therefore, since there is no native support for the computer I choose to sync my PDA with, it is only logical to consider the other Handheld OS’s on the market. And yes, because PalmSource will now leave it to third parties for syncing, I will look at what other handheld OS options are available to me. PPC doesn’t sync out of the box for Macs, however a third party developer sells PocketMac for syncing. From what I’ve read about it, it’s quite a robust product. Why shouldn’t I consider PPC’s now? Units are better priced in relation to options offered, there are more vendors which in turn offers more competition, and more units offer much more in functionality than Palm OS can hope to offer to date. For instance, for the similar price of a TT3 I can have a unit that not only includes Bluetooth but WiFi as well. In my opinion, to discount any other handheld OS and stick with the Palm (despite it no longer offering me native support) is nothing more than being a zealot for Palm only. Because, frankly, your advocating a position regarding the Palm OS that you in turn decry in Mac users. In fact, you show said bias towards Palm by your comments about PPC, “you will go look at PPC, which doesn't sync with Mac out of the box either, and adds a plethora of it's own problems and usability issues? Please. With this kind of logic as it's main user base, Apple really is in trouble.” The Palm OS in not without its own problems and usability issues either. But to state that Palm is better than PPC only shows your bias with regard to the Palm OS. The additional quotes in your comments are not from me though, again, I would point out that if you would restrain from being condescending one would put more stock in your arguments. Lastly, Wollombi said, “Yeah, you're going to buy those because PalmSource snubbed your pet OS and pissed you off. Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion.” No, you’re not behaving like a zealot at all. The person who will now consider other handheld platforms is because they’re not going to buy Palm OS automatically anymore. Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3, ??? RE: Big mistake
Michael, I'm sure people would be more inclined to take your word for it if Larry Slotnick wasn't quoted in three separate sites in three different ways as saying that PalmSource was dropping Mac support in Palm Desktop AND HotSync with a offensive air as if this was a good thing. It wouldn't be so bad if Palm had not support Macs for so long. For instance, as a Linux desktop user, I just shrug my shoulders. I'm sure there is some spreadsheet showing dwindling Mac owner purchases. I know at one time 15% of Mac owners had a PDA which would put it well above the 3% figure when translated into Palm numbers. However, I'm just as sure that marketshare IS decreasing and, while some PC people here are wrong in not realizing the inroads Mac OS X has made in enterprise, their total enterprise market is rather tiny (but then again, Windows is small too and not growing as fast as Linux). What I see is that the Mac is the first platform to actually build desktop synchronization between the computer and a myriad of devices (Palm, cell phones, PDA, multiple computers via internet, and even PocketPC with Missing Sync). Given that most PDA users (NOT your typical reader of PIC) just use a Palm for Address Book and maybe Memo Pad or Date Book, I'd expect that a number of people dropped the PDA from their budget and made do with a cell phone or iPod via synchronization (they sure aren't using them for data entry because one can't do it at all and the other requires you be a teenage european to have developed the motor skills necessary to triple-tap). But the Mac is a harbinger. Standards like iCalendar, vCard and SyncML spell a new future where PalmSource is going to have to confront vis-a-vis new devices running previously beaten operating systems: embedded Linux, PocketPC, Symbian, etc. For instance, what will then happen when Microsoft integrates their knock off of iSync with... Longhorn if the PalmOS already can't compete with a relatively captive audience in the Mac world. Especially when everyone and their aunt knows that PDA sales have flattened. That's why I think that this news is a bad sign for Palm enthusiasts. (And here I was exciting to think that Palm finally got out of the dark ages by realizing that supporting an open source toolchain is not just a good idea, but necessary for their very survival. Remember even WindRiver stopped fighting Linux recently and they have a far larger market and far more to lose.) Finally, right now in the Mac world, iSync currently piggy backs off HotSync through a conduit (that needs to be installed by hand no less) not replaces it. I can't speak for future plans or current negotiations with Apple and 3rd party developers like MarkSpace, but saying that PalmSource has no plans on continuing to develop HotSync on the Mac is no less than a death sentence for Palm and Mac, despite all your attempts to mitigate the PalmOS 5/6 transition giving them names liek "Cobalt". Common sense, having worked at Apple, would predict their reaction to a T. (Yes, I can use a java based solution or a port from Linux to sync, but if tried you see they just won't get traction among Mac users.) So take off your shoe, and roll up a sock and stick it in Larry's mouth. (Ironically, Be, Inc. could be troubled to rewrite an entire OS to be compatible with Mac back in 1996 when they were competing with NeXT to be bought out, but in 2004 when computers build so much faster, they can't be troubled to devote a couple programmers to update tiny little HotSync. Go read Larry's comments with that perspective, they're quite amusing especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is. Then again, he said something about the RAM based filesystem's future in the Palm, which, given Be's innovation in the area of metadata and filesystems makes me wonder if he even understands BeOS at all...) RE: Big mistake
I haven't read all the comments, but my first reaction to the news that Palm is dropping support for Mac OS X was that it is a political decision and not a technical one. Has there been some sort of break down in relations between the two companies? RE: Good riddance to the Mac Moonies™ ;-)
especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is. I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses and pretend it's real. Why don't you explain exactly how you came up with that number of active Palm users syncing with Macs? Actual Mac market (percent of desktops in use) is probably between 1 - 3%. Windows is likely 97 - 98%. Somehow those 1 - 3% Mac users make up 15% of the Palm market? Yeah, right. Palm has sold around 30 million PDAs since they started out. In your bizarre world, all of these are still in use. None have broken, been put in the back of a drawer or are in landfill sites. And each of those PDAs is being used by a different person. Yeah, right. Palm isn't stupid enough to not have done the research into what their user base is currently syncing to on the desktop. Here's a more reasonable estimate: 8 million Palms in active use. 5% syncing to Macs = 400,000 customers. Many of these people already use or are aware of The Missing Sync by Mark/Space. Many others use Bluetooth syncing. Many others don't sync at all, since with the advent of external memory cards syncing isn't required for installing or backing up Palms. OK, so exactly how many people does that leave as being affected by this change? 50,000? 10,000? 5,000? Whatever the exact number - and no matter how (annoyingly) vocal they are on the fanboy sites - it's a vanishingly small percentage of Palm's user base. A number Palm could wisely discount. Palm's main mistake was the crude manner in which they dismissed the fanatics. A better solution would have been to announce in that they would "unfortunately" no longer be able to offer a Mac Palm Desktop but would be working "closely" with Mark/Space etc. to ensure easy syncing with Mac continues. And maybe offer a coupon for The Missing Sync for anyone buying a new Palm in 2004. Palm should know better than to arouse the Raving Mac Zealots - a lot of Palm employees formerly worked at Apple.
RE: Good riddance to the Mac Moonies™ ;-)
especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is. I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses and pretend it's real. Why don't you explain exactly how you came up with that number of active Palm users syncing with Macs? Actual Mac market (percent of desktops in use) is probably between 1 - 3%. Windows is likely 97 - 98%. Somehow those 1 - 3% Mac users make up 15% of the Palm market? Yeah, right. Palm has sold around 30 million PDAs since they started out. In your bizarre world, all of these are still in use. None have broken, been put in the back of a drawer or are in landfill sites. And each of those PDAs is being used by a different person. Yeah, right. Palm isn't stupid enough to not have done the research into what their user base is currently syncing to on the desktop. Here's a more reasonable estimate: 8 million Palms in active use. 5% syncing to Macs = 400,000 customers. Many of these people already use or are aware of The Missing Sync by Mark/Space. Many others use Bluetooth syncing. Many others don't sync at all, since with the advent of external memory cards syncing isn't required for installing or backing up Palms. OK, so exactly how many people does that leave as being affected by this change? 50,000? 10,000? 5,000? Whatever the exact number - and no matter how (annoyingly) vocal they are on the fanboy sites - it's a vanishingly small percentage of Palm's user base. A number Palm could wisely discount. Palm's main mistake was the crude manner in which they dismissed the fanatics. A better solution would have been to announce in that they would "unfortunately" no longer be able to offer a Mac Palm Desktop but would be working "closely" with Mark/Space etc. to ensure easy syncing with Mac continues. And maybe offer a coupon for The Missing Sync for anyone buying a new Palm in 2004. Palm should know better than to arouse the Raving Mac Zealots - a lot of Palm employees formerly worked at Apple.
RE: Big mistake
Re: Face guy Dude stop trying to stir people up it just makes /you/ look dumb. Palms have a *much* shorter life span than a desktop computer, be it a Mac or a PC. Just the very nature of a handheld, battery operated device with a fragile screen means it's not going to last that long with regular use. I personally own Macs that i've collected from various places that are over 10 years old and still work perfectly (like a PowerBook 170 and a Mac SE/30). Computers like Macs remain useful for a long time, they get handed down to children etc. and they get sold on second hand, refurbished and so on. Macs in particular retain their value very well which keeps people selling them once they are done with them rather than just scraping them. Apple estimates they have around 25 million current Mac users, and there are over 8 million active OS X users presently according to Steve Jobs. Of all people I think they are in the best position to know ;) Even if only 400,000 Mac users (5% of the 8 million OS X users) had a Palm, and each spent around $180 that's $72,000,000 in revenue, if you say then that maybe Palm only has a 30% margin on those sales that's $21,600,000 in profit. You think they can't afford to hire 2 lousy Mac programmers? :P Obviously this is complicated by Palm and PalmSource splitting (which actually seems kind of nuts given most of the profit must have come from hardware sales rather than licenses), but anyway it makes the case for continued Mac support from the Palm OS camp. New rule: Stop pulling numbers out of your arse
Palms have a *much* shorter life span than a desktop computer, be it a Mac or a PC. Just the very nature of a handheld, battery operated device with a fragile screen means it's not going to last that long with regular use. B.S. Palms actually have a very LONG lifespan, one of the reasons sales of PDAs are stagnating. A three year old PDA does everything 90% (I made that up) of users want to do. They're cheap, rugged and more likely to get passed on than a PC or Mac, since an old Palm is more likely to be able to run current/useful apps than an old PC/Mac. Apple estimates they have around 25 million current Mac users, and there are over 8 million active OS X users presently according to Steve Jobs. Of all people I think they are in the best position to know ;) Even if only 400,000 Mac users (5% of the 8 million OS X users) had a Palm, and each spent around $180 that's $72,000,000 in revenue, if you say then that maybe Palm only has a 30% margin on those sales that's $21,600,000 in profit. You think they can't afford to hire 2 lousy Mac programmers? :P And I'll bet Apple's "estimates" are accurate... Take your 400,000 OS X users with Palms. How many of them will be so happy with using Palms that they'll accept the new reality and just buy The Missing Sync or sync with Bluetooth? 90%? 95%? Lets use 90%. So Palm loses 10% = 40,000 OS X users. How many of them would have upgraded their Palms in the next year or two? Let's say 10%. So Palm loses 4,000 new sales at your $180 apiece = $720,000. Wow. That's about how much Palm spent on the office Christmas party in 2001. And how much would it cost to code + support a Mac Palm Desktop and upgrade conduits every time Apple feels like doing a .x ""update"? Suddenly Palm's decision starts making a whole lot more sense, doesn't it? Six months from now Mac users will have stopped sniffling and will be buying Palms just like they always did. The zealots need to get over it and stop whining. Smart move, Palm.
RE: MASSIVE mistake! MASSIVE, I tell ya!
So Palm loses 4,000 new sales at your $180 apiece = $720,000. Forgot your 30% profit margin. So dropping Mac will cost Palm 4,000 x $180 x 30% = $216,000 profit*. What the He11 is Palm thinking! $216,000 COLD HARD CASH! Idiots! *Then again, paying salary + benefits for all the Palm-Mac Code Monkeys, Indian support workers (paid $2/hour!), Mac documentation writers, beta test program organizers etc. just might eat up a big chunk of those profits. Hmmmmmm...
RE: Big mistakemitchelljd @ 2/25/2004 2:03:12 PM #
as a longtime palm user, i am dismayed. they have no clue of their client base.
to tell us we need to go buy extra software to be able to sync our palm's is terrible. secondly, what about our needing to use the functions of backingup our pics, notepad jots and more. we won't get full palm functionality with what will be offered. just a sync program. i own a zire 71. also have m505, used VII, V, and prior models. no i never owned a newton, but i have a G4 laptop and i want to use my palm with it. and i want to use it fully, out of the box. NOT having to go elsewhere. What could it hurt to toss in some mac support? Palm you will lose me as a customer!!! better support macs right, in your own box. not making customers go elsewhere. 
 That sucks
I'm not even a Mac user, but I think that really sucks. I feel sorry for you guys. Thank god for Missing Sync, but still... one of the reasons I liked Palm was because their desktop PIM WASN'T Outlook, and ran faster and more-intuitively than Outlook. I don't see why Palm feels it's necessary to mimic their enemy here... I liked the direction Palm Desktop was heading, and for it to become more like Outlook means it becomes less what I want. I despise Outlook and it needs more competition. I even heard of people without Palms using Palm Desktop as a free PIM alternative. Palm needs to remind themselves that doing what's right and NOT what Microsoft does is what made them the leader they've been for so long. RE: That sucks
I agree. Plus I don't see why being more Outlook-oriented has anything to do with not being able to sync with Macs. I think that Gassee is settling a score with Apple, since Apple backed away from buying BeOS, and BeOS ended up with Palm, at a much lower selling price for Gassee. RE: That sucks
Well said. I'm not a Mac user, but I sure hate to see less competition. Any worthy competition to M$ is good competition - even Macs. The Palm Desktop is good - I run Outlook (hate it) but I use the PD for everything else. Too bad. Big mistake. RE: That sucks
I use Outlook too, but if anyone can show me a free sync client that will work with say OpenOffice, Eudora, Opera, or Mozilla, I will ditch Outlook in a heartbeat. As for Palm, it will have to make an about face once Apple threatens an Apple-branded Pocket PC - just to settle the score. RE: That sucksThe Black Moose @ 2/11/2004 7:11:47 PM #
Again, I do not use Macintosh, but I am planning to upgrade to a better computer with Macintosh within the next two years... So much for my idea about buying a nice wireless palm and synching it with Macintosh. Thank God at least one synch option would be available. Dumb move for palm to ditch Macintosh support. Maybe the communists are behind this, or the democrats, or both. Communism in computers... this would help force equality in a small way. I shall let you know that I greatly despise Outlook. Perhaps it would have been better for palm to simply leave the PIM alone. _____________________________________ RE: That sucks
An Apple branded Pocket-PC?? When Microsoft stops patching Windows will you see that. If Apple wanted to be in the PDA market, they'd make their own design, as is Steve Jobs custom. RE: That sucks
Well... I hope it won't happen. But if Bill dangles a sweet carrot for Jobs, who knows? An ipod Pocket PC? :-( Exactly. So Palm better wide up. Then we'll have an iPod Cobalt. :-) See? RE: That sucks
"I use Outlook too, but if anyone can show me a free sync client that will work with say OpenOffice, Eudora, Opera, or Mozilla, I will ditch Outlook in a heartbeat." Hmmm, a free Outlook replacement that works with OppenOffice, and Mozilla... Sounds like Novel's (nee Ximian) Evolution. I'll add that it even has native support for hotsyncing to Palm's, interoperates with iCal and Outlook as far as shared contacts and schedule info, and can act as an Exchange client. But your desktop OS would then be Linux. RE: That sucks
Now THAT would be a big incentive to go Linux. Except for one thing, Is there a Linux Desktop for Palm at all? RE: That sucks
Is there a Linux Desktop for Palm at all? Yes. The two biggies I can think of off the top of my head are: JPilot: (WM agnostic) Kpilot: (KDE-based) And, of course, there's all the command-line applications, rsync daemons, etc, etc. When I was bored one evening, I set my home system up to use the few X-11 connected appliances I had lying around to 'fake' my being home (Switching lights on/off semi-randomly using BottleRocket, etc, etc.) whenever I had a no-time palm date entry that started with 'AWAY' that day. RE: That sucks
"If Apple wanted to be in the PDA market, they'd make their own design, as is Steve Jobs custom." Maybe that's why Palm is dropping Mac support. Maybe they know something the general public does not. Hmmmm. RE: That sucks
That's insane that they are going to drop support. I'd think companies would be working harder to support a wider range of products. This really is disappointing coming from a company like Palm.
Conduit support
Mark/space is great and all, but what does this mean for conduits? I mean if the parent company is no longer supporting Macs, will 3rd parties abandon Mac support altogether then?
Oh well, Sony Ericsson P900 here I come. I'm done with Palm.
BummerKiritan Flux @ 2/11/2004 5:38:45 PM #
Well...that sucks - what a step backwards, now since OS X Panther really got the Mac scene rockin! Thanks to the Mark/Space guys! They're awesome! Let's hope Apple will come up with a new Newton PDA with Aqua GUI :) RE: Bummer
It is extremely difficuly to justify the cost of continued development on a platform which consists of less than 2% worldwide and less than 3% in the US. Hopefully there will be enough information available that a third party who feels it would be worthwhile to develop the technology could fill the gap. RE: Bummer
Percent of the market isn't as important a metric as percent of your products purchasers. That would be a far more interesting statistic to know (and not a trivial one for PalmSource to know - though I'm sure they're about to get some good indication). Just informally, a look around the laptops here at the development conference shows a lot higher penetration than 3%. More likely 30%. Mac laptops even show up behind the conference registration desk, in the hands of corporate PalmOne and Palmsource reps. I'm a bit surprised PalmSource can't get organized enough to unify the desktop on the two platforms as Apple was able to with iTunes for example. But accepting that, it would seem to make more sense for them (or licensees) to simply license the Markspace stuff as some PalmOne does with PocketMirror. But this may yet happen. As to Outlook issues. While I do see the need (lots of enterprise pressure here) for some increased compliance, it should be noted that the PalmOS Protein PIM file formats weren't enhanced just for the sake of Outlook. The flexibility in the Protein powered apps file format (XML), means that the schema can be extended with addional fields on the go, and by developers themselves. This is both future proofing, and feature supporting for developers. No longer will the PIM database format be so constraining to progress. Greater Outlook compatibility is just one way to showcase that ability (rather than the root initiator). RE: Bummer
That statement makes sense on the surface, but just because Macs make up "2% worldwide and less than 3% in the US" market-share wise, does NOT address the percentage of total Palm users who tether to Macs, which I think is the real statistic of importance to this conversation. (And which I'd be willing to wager is much higher than 2 or 3%) RE: Bummer
Regardless...it is a smaller market and developing the code for two different architectures is time consuming and often introduces a lowest common denominator solution...or two separate code bases. This is not theoretical...I speak from direct experience. I was a Mac OS Developer (started on the Lisa) and a huge Apple zealot. I finally came to the realization, however, that an OS shouldn't be a religion. You should just choose whatever OS makes you more effective....and it became more and more difficult to convince myself that the Mac OS was even keeping pace, let alone outpacing, Windows. I switched to Windows development and have never looked back. The rich array of tools and the user base for my products is massive. Now, I write mostly server-side code for Unix/Solaris/Linux in Java, but my entire development team uses Windows boxes as our development platform...as has every other team that I have been on in the last 6 to 8 years. It's not a religious decision...it just makes sense. Now when we consider a non-Windows OS, Apple isn't even in the top 3 OS-es that we consider. What about non-developers? Well, I work for a company with over 100,000 white-collar employees...many of whom own Palms...and you could fit all of the Macs in the company in the back of a VW Beetle...and still have room for your groceries. :-) Flame away, but I applaud Palm for making a tough decision that will most likely reduce development timelines and bring them closer to consistent profitability. Your mileage may vary. cheers, RE: Bummer
This is not about Apples market share it is about Palms resources. Palm is in deep trouble and cannot afford to develop for Mac OS X. For the guy who claims he is a Java developer and Mac OS X is not even in the top three well your just not paying attention RE: Bummer
Well...you are certainly entitled to your opinion. :-) ...but I write software for a living and have for quite a few years. The software that I have developed includes both custom-built systems and consumer products...and when we make decisions like the one Palm has announced today, it is a simple business decision...a cost benefit analysis...not an indication that we are about to go bankrupt. :-) Palm should be worried...phones are converging with PDAs and lightweight affordable tablet PCs are on the horizon. Look at their recent acquisitions. They may come out on top or they may end up out in the cold, but (in my humble opinion) abandoning the Mac will not be a significant factor. They have bigger fish to fry. Of course, I may be wrong...but I will say one more thing...ever since leaving the Mac OS fold I have stopped taking each slight to the OS that I use as a personal affront. My OS is no longer my religion. Now, it's just a tool to which I hardly give a second thought. I understand your passion however...keep up the good fight. cheers, RE: Bummer
"Regardless...it is a smaller market and developing the code for two different architectures is time consuming and often introduces a lowest common denominator solution...or two separate code bases." Hmmm, examples such as Internet Explorer, MS Office, iTunes, doesn't seem to bear out your lowest common denominator theory. RE: Bummer
Well...you are certainly entitled to your opinion. :-) ...but I write software for a living and have for quite a few years. The software that I have developed includes both custom-built systems and consumer products...and when we make decisions like the one Palm has announced today, it is a simple business decision...a cost benefit analysis...not an indication that we are about to go bankrupt. :-) Palm should be worried...phones are converging with PDAs and lightweight affordable tablet PCs are on the horizon. Look at their recent acquisitions. They may come out on top or they may end up out in the cold, but (in my humble opinion) abandoning the Mac will not be a significant factor. They have bigger fish to fry. Of course, I may be wrong...but I will say one more thing...ever since leaving the Mac OS fold I have stopped taking each slight to the OS that I use as a personal affront. My OS is no longer my religion. Now, it's just a tool to which I hardly give a second thought. I understand your passion however...keep up the good fight. cheers,
RE: Bummer
I design very large architectures for a living for some of the biggest companies in the world. People like you report to me. Read and learn; http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/32837.html "Michael Swenson, life sciences computing analyst at research firm IDC, told the E-Commerce Times that Apple's Unix-based Mac OS X has been the driver of Mac popularity in such areas as bioinformatics and chemistry, mainly because porting open-source applications from Linux and Unix has become a trivial process." "It's safe to say that, since Mac OS X became widely adopted, there has been an increase of use within [the scientific] community," Gray told the E-Commerce Times. "Scientists tend to prefer Unix (including Linux) over anything else, and Mac OS X is a revelation. You can compile all of your stuff: source code, projects, scientific subroutines. Mac OS X provides a nice environment for all of them." "Indeed, as senior software engineer at the MIT Whitehead Institute for Genome Research, William Van Etten once needed four computers to do his work: a Windows box for productivity , a Unix box for development, a Linux computer for Linux development and a notebook computer. When Mac OS X became viable, Van Etten was able to slim down to a single computer: a Mac." PC users love to complain about how Mac advocates are all fanatics, they are jealous because it's pretty hard to get excited about Windows XP and Pentium 4's whereas Mac hardware and the OS are years ahead of anything Intel or Microsoft have to offer. AMD has the only process and system architecture even close to Apples. I have access to and buy any kind of high end systems and OS's I choose and after years as a Technical Architect OS X is clearly the leader by several years. With the introduction of the G5 that lead is cemented in hardware as well. RE: Bummer
someone writes: "My OS is no longer my religion. Now, it's just a tool to which I hardly give a second thought" I am afraid this dear someone himself became a tool with the passage of years. Why resign yourself to mediocrity, dude? If I wanted Outlook compliance I would buy an IPaq or a RIM Blackberry. It is bad enough that my corporate overlords oblige me to carry these infernal objects. I enjoyed Palm from the start because it's simple was early Macaesque. Macs sucked for a long time, but since I bought my wife a Powerbook, I fell in love with Macs again. And I would not call my affair a religion. It's pure fun and delight, if there is a OS religion, it is the corporate worship of Taliban, ahem, M$. RE: Bummer
Why so hostile folks? Hmmm? Okay, enough politeness...since you folks don't seem to care. OS X for enterprise development? You are kidding me right? NO ONE uses it for enterprise servers and Apple has all but completely lost even a niche market in the desktop market....including K-12.
"Except for Windows and Linux, all other operating environments saw a drop in revenue in 2002." Source: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/it_res/article.php/3088961 Market share aside...who's out on the web? (which discounts the huge advantage Unix, Linux, and Windows have over OS X...so these are your best possible numbers): "The 3 most popular operating systems are: 1. Windows 97.46% All numbers are an average of the last 2 months. OneStat.com is the number one provider of real-time website analysis software in the world." Source:
The bell tolls for Apple
The 3 most popular operating systems are: 1. Windows 97.46%
RE: Bummer
Funny you quote a number for 2002 when the XServe wasn't introduced until that very year. I'm pretty certain Apple's market share in the server market was so small as to not warrant tracking because Apple finally woke up and started supporting both open standards and making the Mac finally play friendly with PC network: Outlook server support in default mail client, Samba 3, etc. Since then it has gone way up (where else do you go from zero?). Enough so that it's probably tracked right now. I used to build web scrapers. As a rule your scraper always report as being a Windows machine. Heck, many aggregators do just that and most people browsing their banking site HAVE to configure their browser to report the user agent as Windows IE else they don't get past the moronic browser detection code. I believe Mac marketshare has held steady at around 3-5% (more recently the numbers have been higher, but I think its too early to say whether that is permanent). In any case reporting the 2% numbers from a webstat tracking site is... a joke, to say the least. Also, I call bull**** on your Java development skills. While the Mac's Java benchmarks are worse than an Opteron or Pentium (yes, even the G5 falls short in Java performance), they are still many times better than say...Solaris on Sparc so it puts them well into the acceptable range. Many Java developers find that the built-in 1.4.2, free Xcode, and it being treated as a first class citizen (right on par with ObjectiveC) make the Mac worth the tradeoff, especially in the notebook world. Heck, even me (just a lowly applet/midlet coder when I bother to do Java) knows that Mac OS X Server comes with Tomcat and JBoss preinstalled and activateable with the click of a button <http://developer.apple.com/java/>. The fact that Eclipse no longer completely sucks on it is also a bonus. Not to say that I expect Java developers will adopt Mac OS X en-masse. Just that you must not be in a decision-making position with respect to platform choice for Java development. Else you would have seen this recent Slashdot aricle at the minimum: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/05/024208 What this has to do with Palm? Absolutely nothing. You never dealt with the fundamental worry: while Macs represent may 3% of new PC sales, the installed base of Mac users who represent Palm marketshare is obviously much higher than 3% (due to the lack of choice, and the relative wealth of Mac users... heck these people can spend $400 on an MP3 player, I think they're just the sort of market Palm approaches with a PDA). Palm dropping support opens the door wide to PocketPC and Symbian. And lest you think Mac users are too much zealots (as you claim) to consider PocketPC, then remember that Microsoft has been the #1 software vendor in terms of revenue in the Mac market since long before there was even a Windows. RE: Bummer
>market share is not only small...it is shrinking:
You can count me in that 97% marketshare. I have 5 or 6 peecees at home. Total Daily Average usage time: 45 mins. And yes, I surf a lot with the mac each day. I just don't recall visiting any site that is OneStat's client. You should really know OneStat is measuring traffic on a small sample of 50.000 sites they cover (the WWW is several billion pages). Nevertheless, it's just funny hearing about "mac zealots" and "advocates". "Wintel fanboys" and "Micro$oft lovers" sound even funnier. As an Amiga guy MacOSX is really the best OS a desktop can have. Solaris and, to a less extent. Linux are the best options for enterprise computing. Feel free to disagree. PalmSource, as a company, has every right not to directly support Mac even if it seems like a huge mistake in every regard. I, as a customer and developer, I have every right to feel insulted and obliged to complain.
Good Riddance
Palm is focusing its limited resources on the 96%+ of the world out there that uses PCs. F the other ~4% fringe. RE: Good Riddancebleedingedge @ 2/11/2004 7:51:44 PM #
Suck it, Gekko. Small-minded drone. Chances are your doctor is saying, "great, how am I going to remember the dosages for Gekko's antipsychotic medications now that my Palm handheld won't work with my incredible G5?" RE: Good RiddanceThe Black Moose @ 2/11/2004 8:05:02 PM #
Okay, so Apple owns a small share in the desktop computing business. Some sources indicate ~40% of palm users use Macintosh. It might be logical to ditch a desktop software, but not in this case when Macintosh makes a good percentage of users of palm products. I am really beginning to despise windows. Windows, get out of the mobile devices, you can keep your desktop OS. RE: Good Riddance
""Palm is focusing its limited resources on the 96%+ of the world out there that uses PCs. F the other ~4% fringe. What a bunch of childish prattle! Typical "I-told-you-so" bull from Windows weasels. Mercedes and BMW only make 2-3% of the cars in the world, but you don't see Goodyear and Michelin announcing that they won't make tires for that market share becuase its a 'sound business decision' to supoort only mainstream cars. RE: Good Riddance
40% !!! I smell cooked numbers. :-) Since 95% is greater than 40%, I'll estimate that 95% of Palm users* own Macs. *who are Apple employees and qualify for free Mac laptops. Some sources* indicate ~40% of palm users use Macintosh. *In the Steve Jobs household
RE: Good Riddance
Dell has gone to **** ever since they started outsourcing to India. Tech support is a horror story for both home and corporate users. it's gotten so bad that Dell had to mvoe some corproate support back to the states or lose corproate customers. RE: Good Riddancemadmaxmedia @ 2/12/2004 12:16:33 PM #
Tires are not operating systems. There is no such thing as a BMW-only tire. If BMW's required specially developed tires, then there wouldn't be many tires available for it. It's interesting that you bring up cars though, I guess even Steven Jobs has referred to his strategy as the 'BMW approach': http://hbsworkingknowledge.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=3877&t=strategy The larger problem is that the PDA market is flat or shrinking, not expanding. Because of this, Palm is faced with cutting costs to get in the black rather than relying on future growth to justify current expenses. The percentage of Palm users with Macs may be larger than 3%, but I really doubt it's as high as 30% like someone else suggested. IF it was, I absolutely positively guarantee that Palm would not be dropping Mac support. The other good point was that even a 3rd party sync solution is not good enough, if 3rd party software suppliers drop Mac conduit support. Maybe MarkSpace can drop the price of their software and court at least the bigger 3rd party developers, since it seems there will be an increase in demand for their software. RE: Good Riddance
I suspect that in the long run the decision to drop direct support Mac OS X will have not have much of an impact on Apple's future. If anyone needs to worry, it is Palm! They are going down the same road that so many other software companies have tried; "partnering with the devil". Look what happened to Netscape and Word Perfect. Look what's happening with today with companies like Real Media, AOL etc. What the Palm people just don't get is that Microsoft will always have the inside track on desktop synchronization. Psion, once a leader in the palm market spent a great deal of it's recsources in trying to make their OS play nice with Windows. In the end, they just couldn't keep up with the OS changes that came out of Redmond. Without support for competing Desktop OS's like Linux and Mac OS X, I'm afraid Palm will become another Psion. RE: Good Riddance
"Chances are your doctor is saying, 'great, how am I going to remember the dosages for Gekko's antipsychotic medications now that my Palm handheld won't work with my incredible G5?'" So what, you're a doctor. You have to announce that in every post, and belittle people who don't agree with you? Some of us are not impressed, no matter how many times you try to impress us. His/her doctor will probably remember the dosages the same way doctors did before Palms came along - with their brains. Failing that, they look them up in books. Remember those? RE: Good Riddancebleedingedge @ 2/12/2004 7:04:58 PM #
Gee, otter, bitter much? Who's belittling? Did I even say what I do for living? I don't pretend to be better than anyone else posting here. At least I'm not dropping the F-bomb around in a public forum. You should have seen the first version of my response before my self-control kicked in. Chill out. Figure out how to download the latest security update for your Windoze machine or something. RE: Good Riddance
So what, you're a doctor. You have to announce that in every post, Actually, she smells like a third year med student.
RE: Good Riddance
"Gee, otter, bitter much? Who's belittling? Did I even say what I do for living? I don't pretend to be better than anyone else posting here. At least I'm not dropping the F-bomb around in a public forum. You should have seen the first version of my response before my self-control kicked in. Chill out. Figure out how to download the latest security update for your Windoze machine or something." Gee, bleeder, defensive much? Thanks for editing your response because I'm sure it would have hurt me and made me cry. Prescribe yourself some Zoloft and have a seat. RE: Good Riddance
"Who's belittling?"
And I quote, "Suck it, Gekko. Small-minded drone." Did I misinterpret your use of flattery?
Apple iSync
If nothing else, expect Apple to support Palm OS Cobalt in iSync, allowing a sync with iCal, Address Book, etc. They already support Palm devices, mobile phones, iPod, etc. etc. It wouldn't be a total solution (no conduits; no way to install files) but it might still be useful if you need it. RE: Apple iSyncmoparshaha @ 2/11/2004 6:00:49 PM #
I hope so too. iSync worked great with my Tungsten. Apple's PIM apps are far superior to the aged Palm Desktop for Mac. I'm really dissapointed in Palm for taking this step. I almost respect MS and PPC more now, at least not having Mac support is expected of them. This is totally uncalled for from Palm. And Gekko, grow up. We don't need child-like comments like that here. RE: Apple iSyncbmari20007 @ 2/11/2004 6:33:32 PM #
you bring up an interesting and important point. It may be for the same reason that Microsoft cancelled its Internet Explorer browser (a much better, newer Safari they couldn't afford to compete with) may be the reason Palm cancelled its Palm Desktop. With iSync and other apps from Apple that render Palm Desktop completely irrelevent (other than conduits), how could Palm hope to compete? Apple is taking care of itself just fine and its users need not worry about linking their Palms to a Mac. Its about as disturbing as not having IE for Mac anymore (oh no!!!) RE: Apple iSyncbmari20007 @ 2/11/2004 6:38:10 PM #
don't be surprised to find iSync support for installing files and conduits in the near future, if not direct support for transferring files to and from a Palm Pilot via Cobalt itself. RE: Apple iSync
Fortunately hotsyncing as a means of backup, software installation, and conduit communication with 3rd party apps waning. I split my time between Linux, MacOS, and Windows, and even on my office Windows desktop I don't generally use Hotsync for backup and software installation. And with connected devices and native file handling, a good many of the apps that used to use conduits, now do the network word themselves, or work with the files directly rather than let conduits do the lifting. I would venture that we'll see an increasing trend to the sharing of data being done directly client server over TCP/IP between the handhelds/handsets and both server and desktop applications. Especially with the growning number of smartphones, many of which will infrequently or never come in direct physical contact with the desktop. It's a theme that has been directed to developers here at the conference. Software download and purchase can be OTA, and wireless exchange of data (PIM) or otherwise direct from PDA to PDA, or PDA to Server, and never have your personal desktop involved in the data session to the PDA. ...For everything else, there's Markspace RE: Apple iSync
Palm could have handled this a little better, maybe by working with Apple to get iSync support and such. RE: Apple iSyncjcmorganstein @ 2/11/2004 8:30:26 PM #
Agree with many of the above posts. Feels like a letdown... hopefully Apple with come up with something sufficient... glad there's MarkSpace in the meantime. However, as a few others have commented, this leaves me wondering where my loyalty lies. I've been a faithful Palm user for nearly 6 years. But, ditching the Mac OS feels like a huge slap. I know, I know! It's just a financial issue. But, it means I'm at the whim of a third party company to continue support. And, if Palm is truly turning their back, that would suggest that intend to put no effort into even allowing future Palm handhelds to be compatible. The best-intentioned third-party company trying to increase compatibility with the Mac OS could be serious hampered if Palm makes connectivity even more diffiult. I guess the upside is that, as some have commented, most handhelds will be using wireless connectivity in the future. I don't use my desktop app that frequently, but would miss synching with conduits, etc. I'll keep my fingers crossed that MarkSpace can take care of us Mac users. Either way, being cast aside by Palm certainly leaves me feeling more willing than ever to consider a Pocket PC alternative. RE: Apple iSyncKiritan Flux @ 2/12/2004 4:41:28 AM #
Well...there's always Bluetooth for installing Files, syncing AvantGo online etc. and of course Mark/Space - us Apple users won't have to miss anything, really.
But sitll, it's politically a shame - especially after everything Apple did for Palm. |
Very disappointing...
Well, I've used Palm Vx to m505 to Clie NR70 toTT3. The reason for staying with Palm was the PIM, Software, and it's Mac suport. I've recently moved back to mac, although I do use PC at work and have a laptop, but I can't stand using PC. I'm alwasy delighted to come back to Mac OS X, Panther. For me, this is very disappointing news. I've come back to TT3 instead of another Clie because of better Mac support. I understand that iSync will probably support Palm, but it is not complete package by any means. I owned MissingSync for my clie and it is wonderful program but at the end, I wanted to go with hardware that fully supported Mac so I returned to TT3. Now, I'm not sure where I'll end up using in the future. Maybe I'll buy PPC... Nah... but seriously, this is a major step backword for expanding Palm market when Mac community is finally growing.
I for one is very very disappointed! Sam
Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
Can't palmsource see that a reason many people buy Palm is not to buy an M$-controlled device. And these very same people, for the same reasons, are more likely to buy a Mac than a PC? Everyone I know, EVERYONE, that owns a Palm also owns a Mac. Let's be honest PPCs are very good and have more solutions for a similar if not better price. How long have we been waiting for the SD wireless card while PPCs have had CF and SD cards for a while. How sorry is the GPS status in Palms? How badly is video and audio supported by Palms compared to PPCs? With a lack of native Mac support by palmsource I see no reason why my next PDA will not be a PPC. Cheers, RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
>>Everyone I know, EVERYONE, that owns a Palm also owns a Mac. Everyone i know who owns a Palm owns a PC. And the statistics are on my side. Palm did the right thing. they are a relatively small company with a product that has expanded in scope as PDAs have become more feature rich. Quite frankly - doubling ALL of there desktop efforts to support a minority of MAC users is INSANE. Its just not profitiable or sensible. The few conduits i developed for Palm apps were only for PC - i didnt think twice about supporting Macs - and im hardly the only one. RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
I think that rather than repeating spoonfed statistics you should look around you and the experience of others. There are more Palm/Mac users than the "statistics" would lead you to beleive. RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
>>I think that rather than repeating spoonfed statistics you should look around you and the experience of others. There are more Palm/Mac users than the "statistics" would lead you to beleive. I am looking around me and ALL of the palm users i know use PCs. I dont even know anybody who uses a Mac (makes sense - since they are %3 of computer users). RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
Let me go further. Statistics show that %3 of computer users use Macs. I accept the notion that more than %3 of Palm users use Macs. How much more? Well we dont have the numbers - but i'll play along and say that it is 5 times (serious freeakin doubt it - but for the sake of argument) that amount - say %15 of Palm users are Mac people. So? Palm should spend %50 of its desktop development on %15 of the market? Do know how small PalmSource is compared to MS, Apple, Sony, HP, etc, etc, etc???? Do you know how much more complex development support has become for PalmSource with the addiotal features that they now support (you know - the features everbody here whinnes about not having enough of)? Y ou are not reprentative of all of Palm users. Amongst business users (an important chunk of Palm device sales) NOBODY USES MACS. Nobody. I have worked for/with a dozen companies over the last 5 years and NOT ONE MAC was seen on anybodies desktop at any of these companies (though i admit that i havent done any work with graphic design firms - which is the major users of Macs in the biz world). Not one. All of the Palms in these office emviroments were connected to PCs. RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
But they still are far outnumbered by Palm/PC users. The statistics are important, because all kinds of people buy PalmOS powered products regardless of what desktop OS they use, if any. Hell, many folks don't ever sync to their desktops, so it all becomes a non-issue at that point. Just because *you* use Mac, and everyone *you* know uses Mac; well that's a pretty limited viewpoint compared to the overall scheme of things. Just because most everyone I know uses some sort of Unix based OS doesn't mean that Unix/Linux rules the market (yet). You would take that statement as preposterous, but the same logic is behind your Mac statement. Keep in mind that the PalmSource PIM's never synced well with Mac anyway unless you added the Missing Sync software, so what has really changed? All PalmSource has done is remove a mediocre performing middle piece that was virtually useless to Mac users anyway, and especially so now with iLife. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
If you can cite a reference to the proportion of PC users to Mac users that own palms I would appreciated, because I can't find it.... Like it was mentioned by another poster. Palm users have been proposed to be up to 40% Mac users. RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issueThe Black Moose @ 2/11/2004 9:41:45 PM #
Somebody claims to have no friends with Macintosh computers. This is likely the truth. I am not implying that they have a lack of friends. Now hear this: From what I understand, Macintosh seems to come about in regions. Out here in Pennsylvania, Macintosh is spread thinly. In other areas, especially the western section of the United States, Macintosh gains a bit more popularity and comes about in clusters. Odd situation, but it would explain how one individual can have all his palm friends owning Macint |
UZI4U182@suscom.net
Main PDA: NX70v + WL100
http://clieflash.shorturl.com