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Comments on: PalmSource Drops Mac Synchronization in Cobalt

updated In a surprise announcement at the developer conference, PalmSource revealed that Palm OS Cobalt will no longer offer synchronization with the Mac OS. This marks a departure as previous versions of the Palm OS had long shipped with Mac compatible hotsync software. update: PalmSource has issued a statement clarifying their position on the issue.
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Big mistake

UZI4U182 @ 2/11/2004 5:12:34 PM #
Not good...not good at all...

UZI4U182@suscom.net
Main PDA: NX70v + WL100
http://clieflash.shorturl.com
RE: Big mistake
mikecane @ 2/11/2004 5:20:48 PM #
I'm glad I ditched the Mac years ago.

But I agree this is not good. I've come across many people who've wanted to buy CLIEs and went with Palm due to the lack of Mac sync software.

Now I wonder how many fomer PalmOS users will be interested in this:

http://pocketmac.net/

RE: Big mistake
Midge @ 2/11/2004 6:26:08 PM #
I wish Palm had framed things in a positive light. Mark/Space is an excellent company, and I have faith their product will be superb. Palm's Mac PIM support has been mediocre at best for years. (especially regarding fields on the desktop not matching fields on the Palm, and therefore not syncing.) It will be unfortunate to have to pay extra for a Mac interface, but it will be an improvement.

It seems that Palm is trying to alienate Mac users in the way it made its announcement. Certainly not a goodwill gesture.

RE: Big mistake
bleedingedge @ 2/11/2004 7:59:29 PM #
Wow, Mikecane, from all of your previous posts about handhelds you seemed like a bright guy. Would have thought you were a Mac person. Oh well. Lame... for you. : )

I have read many posts on Mac forums about this announcement. Many have said they will never buy Palm again - some, like me, after 6 or more years of loyalty. Many have also said smartphones will be the way to go now or iPod plus mobile phone.

This isn't an option for me. I do a lot more with my handheld than keep a few addresses and memos. I keep around ten full length medical refences in there and consult them to help me care for hundreds of patients each month. Thousands of doctors do this and the number grows daily. Within this community I'll venture to guess that Mac users number more than 3% as is often quoted for the general public. I hope the future is bright for us as far as handheld computing and Mac syncing - for us and our patients.

RE: Big mistake
wisdcom @ 2/11/2004 10:22:31 PM #
I just had to speak out, too.

PalmSource, now this is truly a different Palm company, far from the one that we used to know.

When I first read that OS 6 will be made "more Outlook" compatible, I was a little worried, but just didn't think PalmSource would be that stupid...

Yes, I couldn't find a better adjustive.

PalmSource is the software-only company, and it's supposed to concentrate and be good at writing its software, and it has under its wings a lot of potentials with the successful Palm OS 5 and the technology from Be OS.

But now, this decision really really makes them look bad. Following Microsoft Outlook so blindly that they decide to, in the next major upgrade, drop support entirely for the much more user friendly and well-designed Mac OS X? And it is from the company that created and defined the first truly useful PDA?

Even when I was on a PC, I didn't use Outlook despite its many many features, and it's not that I haven't tried. I converted to Outlook and I really tried to like it, for a few times.

Palm OS could have benefited from having the entire Mac market...

I wonder who is responsible for this decision, and I wonder if this person/group will be able to take the long term consequences of this decision...


RE: Big mistake
mikecane @ 2/12/2004 12:29:56 AM #
>>>Wow, Mikecane, from all of your previous posts about handhelds you seemed like a bright guy. Would have thought you were a Mac person.

For the longest time I was. But I got sick of asking, "Is there a MAC VERSION of that?"

Let Steve Jobs go ask.

Just because I'm using Gates's stuff doesn't mean I *like* it. I wish Mac had the larger market share.

RE: Big mistake
Glory Daze @ 2/12/2004 1:01:31 AM #
I am a Mac user. Longer than a Palm user. Have been looking at Mac laptops but figured I'd upgrade to the new Palm when one came out. Not gonna happen now. I'll just keep the old Tungsten T for my pocket and get a new laptop. Kinda tired of messin' with the small screen for work anyway. Thanks Palm ... for nothing.
RE: Big mistake, yeah
ray00pal @ 2/12/2004 2:30:32 AM #
Why drop Mac support so late? Should have dropped it two to three years ago! Mac is such an out dated. Using two CPUs to do one CPU's job. lol.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/12/2004 5:56:37 AM #
Hehe that's funny, having dual processors is a bad thing? LOL dude, get a clue! Give me a dual processor 64bit Mac with a 1GHz front side bus over your Pentium any day of the week :)

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Big mistake
wendo @ 2/12/2004 6:26:44 AM #
I agree, this is a big mistake by Palm. I utilize both Macs and PC's, however, I primarily use my Palm with the Mac OS. (My laptop is a Mac.)

Perhaps Apple will now consider an Apple branded and produced PDA. Heck, do for PDA's what they did to the MP3 market with the iPod.

If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3

RE: Big mistake
SaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 9:00:36 AM #
The problem with PalmSource vs. Palm is how you all confuse them! PalmSource makes the OS, and they have dropped Mac support. HOWEVER Palm, a totally different company, makes handhelds and can choose to bundle Mac sync software if they so choose. In fact Palm in the Tungsten T3 and E has included substantal OS revisions that PalmSource DID NOT supply.

It is VERY possible that Palm will include Mac sync software, although not software produce by PalmSource.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/12/2004 10:19:52 AM #
Yes PalmSource and PalmOne are different companies and the point is PalmOne is now primarily a hardware company, they are no longer in the business of writing software, so any lack of support from PalmSource is going to be a blow which ever way you look at it.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Big mistake
acaltabiano @ 2/12/2004 11:39:23 AM #
BOOOOO!!! BOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Didn't this company start out as an independent-minded organization determined to "change" the way we did our computing? Weren't they supposed to be so infuential and Innovative as to make other platforms conform to them? Now, like sheep, they are giving in and following the herd. The PD for PC already sucks. It runs hella better on my Mac than it ever did on the PC, and is much more functional. But, now, those days are gone. Yeah, keep "innovating," palm. Good work. You suck. How long 'till you accept a buyout from MS and become PPC? I have seen it printed elsewhere that while the Mac marketshare is reletively small, a large portion of Palm users are indeed Mac users. Alienating your base, eh? Going to the Dark Side, eh? I HOPE Apple devises their own PDA again.

RE: Big mistake
SaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 12:39:52 PM #
rory: PalmOne is primary focused on hardware but just like Sony they will continue to provide software that makes their handhelds unique. Clie has a new organizer suite with their handhelds, PalmOne has been providing new PIM enhancements not made by PalmSource.

Based on some preliminary word from PalmOne they have stated THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT MAC USERS IN THEIR COBALT HANDHELDS.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

RE: Big mistake
Fernando @ 2/12/2004 1:01:29 PM #
i don't know if you gyus know this but currently the t3's don't support the latest version of mac os x. it looks like palmone has dropped the ball on mac's too

RE: Big mistake
a_nonamiss @ 2/12/2004 2:42:21 PM #
::quote::
wendo @ 2/12/2004 6:26:44 AM wrote:

I agree, this is a big mistake by Palm. I utilize both Macs and PC's, however, I primarily use my Palm with the Mac OS. (My laptop is a Mac.)

Perhaps Apple will now consider an Apple branded and produced PDA. Heck, do for PDA's what they did to the MP3 market with the iPod.

If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

::End Quote::

Heh that's kinda funny. You see, if you were a true geek up on your computer history, you'd know that Apple *INVENTED* the PDA in the early 1990's. They sunk tons of money into R&D for the Apple Newton, which was unfortunately a huge flop for the company and was one of the factors that almost sunk them. Ironically, while it was never successful, it was the inspiration for the Palm company, who set out to design a leaner, faster and smaller device. They created the Palm Pilot and the rest is history.
On a related note, you can still find tons of Newtons on eBay. They still have a very loyal, albeit very small, following of nerds who continue to write drivers and software for them. You can actually use Wi-Fi on a Newton, and that's something you can't even do on a Palm! Despite its age, it was still arguably more powerful than a Palm until the T|T came out.

Arthur

Palm Pilot 1000 > Palm Pilot Professional > Palm III > Palm M100 > Sony Clié PEG-T415 > Palm T|T3

RE: Big mistake
ganoe @ 2/12/2004 3:20:48 PM #
> Mac is such an out dated. Using two CPUs to do one CPU's job. lol.

Yeah, like I mean I've been using dual CPU systems with Windows NT/XP for years now. Very useful when Windows lets an app run amuck on the system, then I might just barely have enough CPU left to kill the app without having to boot the system. LOL. Windoze rulez dude!

As mikecane put it, "I'm glad I ditched Windows a month ago." Err, maybe that isn't what he said.

RE: Big mistake
otter @ 2/12/2004 4:05:25 PM #
"Palm OS could have benefited from having the entire Mac market..."

Yeah, I agree. All 8 of you.

RE: Big mistake
otter @ 2/12/2004 4:07:46 PM #
And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA.
RE: Big mistake
statik @ 2/12/2004 6:11:36 PM #
"I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped."

The zeolots aren't restricted to the macintosh camp. I develop on both PC and Mac machines and have to say I see a lot more zeolots on the PC side.

As for Palmsource not supporting Mac? I'll hold my opinion to see what PalmOne does.


RE: Big mistake
Michael Mace @ 2/12/2004 6:26:32 PM #
Midge wrote:

>>I wish Palm had framed things in a positive light. Mark/Space is an excellent company, and I have faith their product will be superb.


Amen to both sentences.

We appreciate all the comments folks are making, and we are listening. The company asked me to post the comment below:

"PalmSource is fortunate to have a great Palm OS developer community who provide solutions for Macintosh compatibility today. Palm OS provides an open and flexible architecture and allows its licensees to decide whether to ship a Mac compatibility solution with their Palm Powered device. (One such solution is provided by Mark/Space.) We are continuing our efforts with Apple to provide compatibility between Palm OS and Macintosh."

Mike
CCO, PalmSource

RE: Big mistake
wisdcom @ 2/12/2004 8:16:31 PM #
> "Yeah, I agree. All 8 of you."

Haha, count again. I don't know about you, but I would be pretty happy to sell a product and have the entire Mac market all to myself.

Zillions of Windows out there does not change this; it's a separate opportunity. It shouldn't be an "either-or": PalmSource could have had the Mac market and keep on competing with Pocket PC on Windows.

---

For a major upgrade, saying that they drop support entirely for one platform, and "follow" another (a competitor!), has so many negative effects, psychological and otherwise.

Since Cobalt is for the high-end, they could have just ditched pre-OS X support and concentrate on OS X and beyond. Oh well...

---

> "And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA."

I hope it was not directed at me, but if so:

Did I suggest anything like that? If it makes you feel better, I have more Windows machines then Macs here... ;)


RE: Big mistake
TTrules @ 2/12/2004 9:25:24 PM #
ray00pal, you don't know what you're talking about. Two processors is definately better than one. I like macs.

One Palm to rule them all!
RE: Big mistake
wendo @ 2/12/2004 9:29:44 PM #
Yes, Arthur, I'm fully aware that Apple kick started the PDA movement with the Newton.


To Mike from PalmSource:

I do appreciate you taking the time to comment here regarding the change regarding native Macintosh support. Yes, the fact that Mark Space develops drivers for the Mac is advantageous.

However, the fact that built in native support will not exist in Cobalt is disconcerting nonetheless. As a Palm supporter since my first Palm 5000, the lack of Mac support in future OS's will make me re-evaluate whether I will continue to buy PalmSource/PalmOne products. Instead of always upgrading within the Palm product matrix, I will now scrutinize other platforms since the Palm OS no longer offers a compelling benefit over other Handheld OS's for users who use a Mac to sync with.

I understand the decision to do it, I'm not naive. However, I wonder if the full consequences of this decision were truly realized before this decision was made.

We shall see...

-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3

RE: Big mistake
DWD @ 2/12/2004 11:39:29 PM #
In agreement: Wow. Palm dropping native Mac support. Not good for Palm or Apple and a little too cozy with Microsoft. *shudder*

RE: Big mistake
mikecane @ 2/13/2004 12:18:13 AM #
>>>As mikecane put it, "I'm glad I ditched Windows a month ago." Err, maybe that isn't what he said.

ganoe: Switch to what?! Linux?

Despite the outcry here, Mac users are a minority on PIC too.

About an hour ago, BBC World Service reported that portions of Windows source code has been leaked onto the Net. Which version and how much has not ben specified. But perhaps this could be a serious blow to MS... I wouldn't mourn if it was a fatal blow!

RE: Big mistake
joej @ 2/13/2004 1:06:36 AM #
This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are:

1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and

2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well,

this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company.

On a personal level, Mark/Space will probably provide an implementation on OS X that is better than any PalmSource solution on Windows (with Outlook as the driving force???!!!!). I languished with Palm on Win95, 98 and XP until I went back to the Mac (having been battered by crashes, viruses, poorly written programs, conflicts). The Mark/Space Missing Sync provided interfaces with iPhoto, iTunes, etc. If they add email, and all the reported features, it might end up the best solution on any platform.

Palm Personal, Newton, Sharp Mobilon, Psion 5, Palm III, Psion 5mx, Visor Deluxe, Clie N760, Tungsten T, T2, T3

Apple is DEAD in enterprise/corporate world
;-) @ 2/13/2004 1:44:04 AM #
This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are:

1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and

2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well,

this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company.

Cut the BS, Junior. Organizations like standards and Windows is the standard. Whether or not it deserves to be. I suppose you and your coven of "others who feel the same way also" will also be recommending Netscape, WordPerfect, Eudora and Lotus 1-2-3 for your Fortune 500 companies?

Be honest: you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll.


It's just too big.

RE: Big mistake
ganoe @ 2/13/2004 6:15:23 AM #
> ganoe: Switch to what?! Linux?

Switched to Mac last month. I got tired of waiting to easily do in Windows what I could do in Unix over a decade ago.

RE: Big mistake
otter @ 2/13/2004 7:23:54 AM #
"It shouldn't be an 'either-or'"

I agree. I didn't say Windows was superior. MS should have more competition, but to echo mikecane's words, the main reason I bought a PC in the first place was because when I walked into computer stores there was always a huge section of software and hardware for PCs - including things I wanted - and a little corner display of Mac stuff that was mildly interesting.

> "And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA."

I hope it was not directed at me..."

It wasn't directed at anyone, just an observation based on my experience.

RE: Big mistake
Wollombi @ 2/13/2004 7:43:49 PM #
>>"If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat."<<

What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac? You know, overpriced, underpowered, and using 3 year-old technology. To this day, while it may have saved Apple's skin, I cannot respect taking advantage of gullible buyers by adding "pretty colors" to and charging full price for a product that was essentially the Mac of 3 years previous. What a rip-off. You would buy that PDA if it came out? Or would you expect Jobs and Co. to actually produce something modern and capable? If your choice is the former over the latter, I suggest buying the Newton off eBay (at least then you won't pay today's prices for yesterday's technology). Me, I would prefer something more akin to the funcionality of OSX on the PDA, but not in PPC fashion.

>>"Didn't this company start out as an independent-minded organization determined to "change" the way we did our computing? Weren't they supposed to be so infuential and Innovative as to make other platforms conform to them? Now, like sheep, they are giving in and following the herd. The PD for PC already sucks. It runs hella better on my Mac than it ever did on the PC, and is much more functional. But, now, those days are gone. Yeah, keep "innovating," palm. Good work. You suck. How long 'till you accept a buyout from MS and become PPC? I have seen it printed elsewhere that while the Mac marketshare is reletively small, a large portion of Palm users are indeed Mac users. Alienating your base, eh? Going to the Dark Side, eh? I HOPE Apple devises their own PDA again."<<

Hmm...before your emotional and poorly thought out rant, I believed that Mac users were generally intelligent and rational people. Please don't try to prove that impression wrong a second time.

>>"However, the fact that built in native support will not exist in Cobalt is disconcerting nonetheless. As a Palm supporter since my first Palm 5000, the lack of Mac support in future OS's will make me re-evaluate whether I will continue to buy PalmSource/PalmOne products. Instead of always upgrading within the Palm product matrix, I will now scrutinize other platforms since the Palm OS no longer offers a compelling benefit over other Handheld OS's for users who use a Mac to sync with."<<

Perhaps you should re-evaluate that position. Let's think about the only real alternative at the moment, PPC, or Winblows Mobile, or whatever they want to call it these days. PalmOS is easy to use, has a very intuitive interface, is powerful, and can get the work done. All of the qualities you bought you Mac for. So you are telling me that because PalmSource left it to the 3rd parties (who often do a better job, BTW) to create a program to sync, you will go look at PPC, which doesn't sync with Mac out of the box either, and adds a plethora of it's own problems and usability issues? Please. With this kind of logic as it's main user base, Apple really is in trouble.

>>"This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are:

1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and

2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well,

this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company."<<

You're considering Macs for enterprise use? Unless you are a graphics shop, you better reconsider before you do something that loses you your job. Mac OSX has a lot going for it on the consumer level, but for most enterprises it isn't there yet. Additionally, while almost nobody likes it (myself included), MS is the maker/producer of the products that are the defacto standard for enterprises at the moment, meaning you want compatibility with the organizations your company does business with, or you don't do business. Period.

As far as saying that PalmSource will "miss out on customers" like yourself, let me make a couple of points (and I'll go slow so you can understand):

1.)PalmSource only has licensees for customers, not individuals like yourself. Unless you are going to manufacture and market a PDA the runs PalmOS, you as an individual are inconsequential to PalmSource. Licensees make the handheld units that you will buy despite your statment, because:...

2.)...the only real alternative out there right now is Pocket PC. Yeah, you're going to buy those because PalmSource snubbed your pet OS and pissed you off. Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion. I'd much rather see a few reasonable folks here than a lot of zealots who don't bother to think before they speak. To finish off this second point, I'll refer you to the statement above, where I mention that PalmOS has all of the advantages that you ostensibly love Macs for.

While I generally disagree with "the emoticon" (aka ;-)) who is every bit as retarded, he makes a point before he goes into his psychotic episode of insults. Windows/Exchage are the defacto standards, and that's what most businesses like to see, whether it's the best product or not.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/13/2004 9:28:44 PM #
Sean: You're way out on a number of points which I'd like to correct you on:

"What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac? You know, overpriced, underpowered, and using 3 year-old technology. To this day, while it may have saved Apple's skin, I cannot respect taking advantage of gullible buyers by adding "pretty colors" to and charging full price for a product that was essentially the Mac of 3 years previous."

Obviously it's kind of silly to say you will buy something as soon a manufacturer announces it regardless of specs etc, but I'd take issue with your comments on the iMac. It's not designed for power users, it's designed for people who want a computer which they can take out of the box, plug-in and be on the Internet within 10 minutes, who don't want to worry about viruses and worms trashing their computer every week etc. And honestly, the average home user doesn't need a 3GHz machine to surf the web, write e-mail, manage digital photos or listen to music. The argument about 'power' could easily be levied at Palm devices. Sure you can now get them with fast CPUs, but until OS 6 is out you can't make use of that extra processing power for anything particularly useful.

I will also remind you that Apple's last Newton PDA, discontinued in 1998, had a 166MHz ARM processor in, considerably faster than most Palms until recently, and still faster than Zire 71, T|E etc, so even if they did use 3 year old technology it would easily be comparable to a current Palm device.

With regards to the user suggesting they switch to PPC, why not? If they have to use a 3rd party utility to sync with Palm OS, why not use one for PPC? I agree that the user interface is inferior to Palm OS, but they are cheaper and faster than Palms and tend to have better expandability. As most PC users demonstrate, these are clearly trade offs people are happy to make or Apple would be the defacto desktop standard.

"You're considering Macs for enterprise use? Unless you are a graphics shop, you better reconsider before you do something that loses you your job."

I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about here. What do you think enterprises use their servers for? File storage, e-mail, directory services, web/intranet hosting? Mac OS X Server can do all these things really well and happily works in a cross platform environment with NO per-user costs and while being much easier to use than a Linux server. Anyone who reads business oriented technology sites is well aware of the increasingly large waves Apple is creating in that sector. Windows on the desktop doesn't mean necessarily Windows in the server room.

"Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion. I'd much rather see a few reasonable folks here than a lot of zealots who don't bother to think before they speak."

Hello? Here you are accusing Mac users of being zealots because of their choice of computer, and here you are being a Palm zealot because someone might switch to what you consider is an inferior PDA.

If anything I would expect Palm users to be able to emphasize with what Mac users are put through for not going along with the juggernaut of mediocrity.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

RE: Big mistake
wendo @ 2/14/2004 2:03:56 AM #
;-) said, “Cut the BS, Junior. Organizations like standards and Windows is the standard.”

Being rude and condescending doesn’t help your case one bit. In fact, you sound like the child given time on daddy’s computer. Be adult and have a grown up conversation by debating the issue, not insulting the person with opposing opinions. As is evidenced, no one on this site takes you very seriously because of your presentation.

Secondly, just because organizations like standards and Windows is a majority standard doesn’t discount the fact that many companies (even non-graphic houses) are considering Mac OS X as an alternative to Windows and Linux. Is the base large? No, obviously, but it is slowly growing. But OS X’s adoption rate is still better than most people anticipated.

;-) also said, “Be honest: you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll.”

Again, one would be willing to consider your points and opinions with more attention if you chose to address others with more respect than shown here. One could argue that the child in the basement is you.

===

Wollombi said, “What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac?”

First of all, I am not blind nor naïve. You chose to take seriously an obvious overstatement if Apple released an Apple PDA. The point I was trying to make was that if Apple were to release a PDA I would seriously consider purchasing one.

However, before laying the money down, I wouldn’t just buy it without researching its specifications, evaluating whether it fit my needs, and how well it integrated into my computer system(s). As a long time purchaser of many computer platforms I do my research before spending my money. As to your comments about the iMac, it shows how little you know the iMac and what it’s purpose is in Apple’s retail strategy. Someone addressed this better than I and those comments are above.

The second quote you reference wasn’t from me, though one wouldn’t know that since you weren’t careful in attributing quotes.

However, I will comment on what you said; Wollombi also said, “Hmm...before your emotional and poorly thought out rant, I believed that Mac users were generally intelligent and rational people. Please don't try to prove that impression wrong a second time.”

As I said above, insulting the people your debating with is not a strong tactic. More than naught it only weakens your argument and makes it sound as though you’re not debating others seriously; only that your primary purpose is to insult and condescend.

Wollombi went on to further say, “Perhaps you should re-evaluate that position. Let's think about the only real alternative at the moment, PPC, or Winblows Mobile, or whatever they want to call it these days.”

Why do I need to re-evaluate my position and who are you to tell me to do so? Because Palm OS Cobalt will not offer native support for Macs, it does nothing to distinguish itself from the Windows Mobile platform; as well as other, less popular, platforms such as Symbian. Therefore, since there is no native support for the computer I choose to sync my PDA with, it is only logical to consider the other Handheld OS’s on the market.

And yes, because PalmSource will now leave it to third parties for syncing, I will look at what other handheld OS options are available to me. PPC doesn’t sync out of the box for Macs, however a third party developer sells PocketMac for syncing. From what I’ve read about it, it’s quite a robust product. Why shouldn’t I consider PPC’s now? Units are better priced in relation to options offered, there are more vendors which in turn offers more competition, and more units offer much more in functionality than Palm OS can hope to offer to date. For instance, for the similar price of a TT3 I can have a unit that not only includes Bluetooth but WiFi as well.

In my opinion, to discount any other handheld OS and stick with the Palm (despite it no longer offering me native support) is nothing more than being a zealot for Palm only. Because, frankly, your advocating a position regarding the Palm OS that you in turn decry in Mac users.

In fact, you show said bias towards Palm by your comments about PPC, “you will go look at PPC, which doesn't sync with Mac out of the box either, and adds a plethora of it's own problems and usability issues? Please. With this kind of logic as it's main user base, Apple really is in trouble.”

The Palm OS in not without its own problems and usability issues either. But to state that Palm is better than PPC only shows your bias with regard to the Palm OS.

The additional quotes in your comments are not from me though, again, I would point out that if you would restrain from being condescending one would put more stock in your arguments.

Lastly, Wollombi said, “Yeah, you're going to buy those because PalmSource snubbed your pet OS and pissed you off. Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion.”

No, you’re not behaving like a zealot at all. The person who will now consider other handheld platforms is because they’re not going to buy Palm OS automatically anymore.

-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3, ???

RE: Big mistake
tychay @ 2/14/2004 3:56:53 AM #
Michael,

I'm sure people would be more inclined to take your word for it if Larry Slotnick wasn't quoted in three separate sites in three different ways as saying that PalmSource was dropping Mac support in Palm Desktop AND HotSync with a offensive air as if this was a good thing.

It wouldn't be so bad if Palm had not support Macs for so long. For instance, as a Linux desktop user, I just shrug my shoulders.

I'm sure there is some spreadsheet showing dwindling Mac owner purchases. I know at one time 15% of Mac owners had a PDA which would put it well above the 3% figure when translated into Palm numbers. However, I'm just as sure that marketshare IS decreasing and, while some PC people here are wrong in not realizing the inroads Mac OS X has made in enterprise, their total enterprise market is rather tiny (but then again, Windows is small too and not growing as fast as Linux).

What I see is that the Mac is the first platform to actually build desktop synchronization between the computer and a myriad of devices (Palm, cell phones, PDA, multiple computers via internet, and even PocketPC with Missing Sync). Given that most PDA users (NOT your typical reader of PIC) just use a Palm for Address Book and maybe Memo Pad or Date Book, I'd expect that a number of people dropped the PDA from their budget and made do with a cell phone or iPod via synchronization (they sure aren't using them for data entry because one can't do it at all and the other requires you be a teenage european to have developed the motor skills necessary to triple-tap).

But the Mac is a harbinger. Standards like iCalendar, vCard and SyncML spell a new future where PalmSource is going to have to confront vis-a-vis new devices running previously beaten operating systems: embedded Linux, PocketPC, Symbian, etc. For instance, what will then happen when Microsoft integrates their knock off of iSync with... Longhorn if the PalmOS already can't compete with a relatively captive audience in the Mac world.

Especially when everyone and their aunt knows that PDA sales have flattened.

That's why I think that this news is a bad sign for Palm enthusiasts.

(And here I was exciting to think that Palm finally got out of the dark ages by realizing that supporting an open source toolchain is not just a good idea, but necessary for their very survival. Remember even WindRiver stopped fighting Linux recently and they have a far larger market and far more to lose.)

Finally, right now in the Mac world, iSync currently piggy backs off HotSync through a conduit (that needs to be installed by hand no less) not replaces it. I can't speak for future plans or current negotiations with Apple and 3rd party developers like MarkSpace, but saying that PalmSource has no plans on continuing to develop HotSync on the Mac is no less than a death sentence for Palm and Mac, despite all your attempts to mitigate the PalmOS 5/6 transition giving them names liek "Cobalt". Common sense, having worked at Apple, would predict their reaction to a T. (Yes, I can use a java based solution or a port from Linux to sync, but if tried you see they just won't get traction among Mac users.)

So take off your shoe, and roll up a sock and stick it in Larry's mouth.

(Ironically, Be, Inc. could be troubled to rewrite an entire OS to be compatible with Mac back in 1996 when they were competing with NeXT to be bought out, but in 2004 when computers build so much faster, they can't be troubled to devote a couple programmers to update tiny little HotSync. Go read Larry's comments with that perspective, they're quite amusing especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is. Then again, he said something about the RAM based filesystem's future in the Palm, which, given Be's innovation in the area of metadata and filesystems makes me wonder if he even understands BeOS at all...)

--
terry chay

http://www.mycasanetwork.com/- Personal Monitoring Services

RE: Big mistake
Chameleon @ 2/14/2004 7:27:10 AM #
I haven't read all the comments, but my first reaction to the news that Palm is dropping support for Mac OS X was that it is a political decision and not a technical one. Has there been some sort of break down in relations between the two companies?
RE: Good riddance to the Mac Moonies™ ;-)
;-) @ 2/14/2004 4:54:43 PM #
especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is.

I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses and pretend it's real. Why don't you explain exactly how you came up with that number of active Palm users syncing with Macs?

Actual Mac market (percent of desktops in use) is probably between 1 - 3%. Windows is likely 97 - 98%. Somehow those 1 - 3% Mac users make up 15% of the Palm market? Yeah, right.

Palm has sold around 30 million PDAs since they started out. In your bizarre world, all of these are still in use. None have broken, been put in the back of a drawer or are in landfill sites. And each of those PDAs is being used by a different person. Yeah, right.

Palm isn't stupid enough to not have done the research into what their user base is currently syncing to on the desktop. Here's a more reasonable estimate:

8 million Palms in active use. 5% syncing to Macs = 400,000 customers. Many of these people already use or are aware of The Missing Sync by Mark/Space. Many others use Bluetooth syncing. Many others don't sync at all, since with the advent of external memory cards syncing isn't required for installing or backing up Palms. OK, so exactly how many people does that leave as being affected by this change? 50,000? 10,000? 5,000? Whatever the exact number - and no matter how (annoyingly) vocal they are on the fanboy sites - it's a vanishingly small percentage of Palm's user base. A number Palm could wisely discount. Palm's main mistake was the crude manner in which they dismissed the fanatics. A better solution would have been to announce in that they would "unfortunately" no longer be able to offer a Mac Palm Desktop but would be working "closely" with Mark/Space etc. to ensure easy syncing with Mac continues. And maybe offer a coupon for The Missing Sync for anyone buying a new Palm in 2004.

Palm should know better than to arouse the Raving Mac Zealots - a lot of Palm employees formerly worked at Apple.


It's just too big.

RE: Good riddance to the Mac Moonies™ ;-)
;-) @ 2/14/2004 4:54:43 PM #
especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is.

I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses and pretend it's real. Why don't you explain exactly how you came up with that number of active Palm users syncing with Macs?

Actual Mac market (percent of desktops in use) is probably between 1 - 3%. Windows is likely 97 - 98%. Somehow those 1 - 3% Mac users make up 15% of the Palm market? Yeah, right.

Palm has sold around 30 million PDAs since they started out. In your bizarre world, all of these are still in use. None have broken, been put in the back of a drawer or are in landfill sites. And each of those PDAs is being used by a different person. Yeah, right.

Palm isn't stupid enough to not have done the research into what their user base is currently syncing to on the desktop. Here's a more reasonable estimate:

8 million Palms in active use. 5% syncing to Macs = 400,000 customers. Many of these people already use or are aware of The Missing Sync by Mark/Space. Many others use Bluetooth syncing. Many others don't sync at all, since with the advent of external memory cards syncing isn't required for installing or backing up Palms. OK, so exactly how many people does that leave as being affected by this change? 50,000? 10,000? 5,000? Whatever the exact number - and no matter how (annoyingly) vocal they are on the fanboy sites - it's a vanishingly small percentage of Palm's user base. A number Palm could wisely discount. Palm's main mistake was the crude manner in which they dismissed the fanatics. A better solution would have been to announce in that they would "unfortunately" no longer be able to offer a Mac Palm Desktop but would be working "closely" with Mark/Space etc. to ensure easy syncing with Mac continues. And maybe offer a coupon for The Missing Sync for anyone buying a new Palm in 2004.

Palm should know better than to arouse the Raving Mac Zealots - a lot of Palm employees formerly worked at Apple.


It's just too big.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/14/2004 5:57:51 PM #
Re: Face guy

Dude stop trying to stir people up it just makes /you/ look dumb.

Palms have a *much* shorter life span than a desktop computer, be it a Mac or a PC. Just the very nature of a handheld, battery operated device with a fragile screen means it's not going to last that long with regular use. I personally own Macs that i've collected from various places that are over 10 years old and still work perfectly (like a PowerBook 170 and a Mac SE/30).

Computers like Macs remain useful for a long time, they get handed down to children etc. and they get sold on second hand, refurbished and so on. Macs in particular retain their value very well which keeps people selling them once they are done with them rather than just scraping them.

Apple estimates they have around 25 million current Mac users, and there are over 8 million active OS X users presently according to Steve Jobs. Of all people I think they are in the best position to know ;) Even if only 400,000 Mac users (5% of the 8 million OS X users) had a Palm, and each spent around $180 that's $72,000,000 in revenue, if you say then that maybe Palm only has a 30% margin on those sales that's $21,600,000 in profit. You think they can't afford to hire 2 lousy Mac programmers? :P

Obviously this is complicated by Palm and PalmSource splitting (which actually seems kind of nuts given most of the profit must have come from hardware sales rather than licenses), but anyway it makes the case for continued Mac support from the Palm OS camp.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

New rule: Stop pulling numbers out of your arse
;-) @ 2/14/2004 9:24:15 PM #
Palms have a *much* shorter life span than a desktop computer, be it a Mac or a PC. Just the very nature of a handheld, battery operated device with a fragile screen means it's not going to last that long with regular use.

B.S. Palms actually have a very LONG lifespan, one of the reasons sales of PDAs are stagnating. A three year old PDA does everything 90% (I made that up) of users want to do. They're cheap, rugged and more likely to get passed on than a PC or Mac, since an old Palm is more likely to be able to run current/useful apps than an old PC/Mac.

Apple estimates they have around 25 million current Mac users, and there are over 8 million active OS X users presently according to Steve Jobs. Of all people I think they are in the best position to know ;) Even if only 400,000 Mac users (5% of the 8 million OS X users) had a Palm, and each spent around $180 that's $72,000,000 in revenue, if you say then that maybe Palm only has a 30% margin on those sales that's $21,600,000 in profit. You think they can't afford to hire 2 lousy Mac programmers? :P

And I'll bet Apple's "estimates" are accurate...
Reminds me of Palm's repeated trumpeting that they've sold "30 million" PDAs over the years. Too bad most of them are now residing in landfill sites.

Take your 400,000 OS X users with Palms. How many of them will be so happy with using Palms that they'll accept the new reality and just buy The Missing Sync or sync with Bluetooth? 90%? 95%? Lets use 90%. So Palm loses 10% = 40,000 OS X users. How many of them would have upgraded their Palms in the next year or two? Let's say 10%. So Palm loses 4,000 new sales at your $180 apiece = $720,000. Wow. That's about how much Palm spent on the office Christmas party in 2001. And how much would it cost to code + support a Mac Palm Desktop and upgrade conduits every time Apple feels like doing a .x ""update"? Suddenly Palm's decision starts making a whole lot more sense, doesn't it? Six months from now Mac users will have stopped sniffling and will be buying Palms just like they always did. The zealots need to get over it and stop whining.

Smart move, Palm.


It's just too big.

RE: MASSIVE mistake! MASSIVE, I tell ya!
;-) @ 2/14/2004 10:37:42 PM #
So Palm loses 4,000 new sales at your $180 apiece = $720,000.

Forgot your 30% profit margin. So dropping Mac will cost Palm 4,000 x $180 x 30% = $216,000 profit*.

What the He11 is Palm thinking! $216,000 COLD HARD CASH! Idiots!

*Then again, paying salary + benefits for all the Palm-Mac Code Monkeys, Indian support workers (paid $2/hour!), Mac documentation writers, beta test program organizers etc. just might eat up a big chunk of those profits.

Hmmmmmm...




It's just too big.

RE: Big mistake
MikeInDM @ 2/16/2004 8:40:22 AM #
If Apple introduced a PDA, it would probably cost $1000.00 ;-)
RE: Big mistake
mitchelljd @ 2/25/2004 2:03:12 PM #
as a longtime palm user, i am dismayed. they have no clue of their client base.

to tell us we need to go buy extra software to be able to sync our palm's is terrible. secondly, what about our needing to use the functions of backingup our pics, notepad jots and more. we won't get full palm functionality with what will be offered. just a sync program.

i own a zire 71. also have m505, used VII, V, and prior models. no i never owned a newton, but i have a G4 laptop and i want to use my palm with it.

and i want to use it fully, out of the box. NOT having to go elsewhere.

What could it hurt to toss in some mac support?

Palm you will lose me as a customer!!! better support macs right, in your own box. not making customers go elsewhere.

That sucks

sremick @ 2/11/2004 5:10:23 PM #
I'm not even a Mac user, but I think that really sucks. I feel sorry for you guys.

Thank god for Missing Sync, but still... one of the reasons I liked Palm was because their desktop PIM WASN'T Outlook, and ran faster and more-intuitively than Outlook. I don't see why Palm feels it's necessary to mimic their enemy here... I liked the direction Palm Desktop was heading, and for it to become more like Outlook means it becomes less what I want. I despise Outlook and it needs more competition. I even heard of people without Palms using Palm Desktop as a free PIM alternative.

Palm needs to remind themselves that doing what's right and NOT what Microsoft does is what made them the leader they've been for so long.

RE: That sucks
yerrago @ 2/11/2004 5:37:29 PM #
I agree. Plus I don't see why being more Outlook-oriented has anything to do with not being able to sync with Macs.

I think that Gassee is settling a score with Apple, since Apple backed away from buying BeOS, and BeOS ended up with Palm, at a much lower selling price for Gassee.

RE: That sucks
DevPOV @ 2/11/2004 5:47:13 PM #
Well said. I'm not a Mac user, but I sure hate to see less competition. Any worthy competition to M$ is good competition - even Macs. The Palm Desktop is good - I run Outlook (hate it) but I use the PD for everything else.

Too bad. Big mistake.

RE: That sucks
yerrago @ 2/11/2004 6:38:39 PM #
I use Outlook too, but if anyone can show me a free sync client that will work with say OpenOffice, Eudora, Opera, or Mozilla, I will ditch Outlook in a heartbeat.

As for Palm, it will have to make an about face once Apple threatens an Apple-branded Pocket PC - just to settle the score.

RE: That sucks
The Black Moose @ 2/11/2004 7:11:47 PM #
Again, I do not use Macintosh, but I am planning to upgrade to a better computer with Macintosh within the next two years...

So much for my idea about buying a nice wireless palm and synching it with Macintosh. Thank God at least one synch option would be available.

Dumb move for palm to ditch Macintosh support. Maybe the communists are behind this, or the democrats, or both. Communism in computers... this would help force equality in a small way.

I shall let you know that I greatly despise Outlook. Perhaps it would have been better for palm to simply leave the PIM alone.

_____________________________________
'Palmone', I liked 'Palm' better, it just does not sound right. Same with 'Realone', I liked 'Real Jukebox' and 'Real Player' better. It just does not sound right.
Can I check out your palmone? I cannot see myself saying that anytime soon.

RE: That sucks
maao @ 2/11/2004 7:20:12 PM #
An Apple branded Pocket-PC??

When Microsoft stops patching Windows will you see that.

If Apple wanted to be in the PDA market, they'd make their own design, as is Steve Jobs custom.

RE: That sucks
yerrago @ 2/11/2004 7:49:45 PM #
Well... I hope it won't happen. But if Bill dangles a sweet carrot for Jobs, who knows? An ipod Pocket PC?

:-(

Exactly. So Palm better wide up. Then we'll have an iPod Cobalt.

:-)

See?

RE: That sucks
cbowers @ 2/12/2004 12:27:18 AM #
"I use Outlook too, but if anyone can show me a free sync client that will work with say OpenOffice, Eudora, Opera, or Mozilla, I will ditch Outlook in a heartbeat."

Hmmm, a free Outlook replacement that works with OppenOffice, and Mozilla... Sounds like Novel's (nee Ximian) Evolution. I'll add that it even has native support for hotsyncing to Palm's, interoperates with iCal and Outlook as far as shared contacts and schedule info, and can act as an Exchange client.

But your desktop OS would then be Linux.

RE: That sucks
yerrago @ 2/12/2004 2:21:36 AM #
Now THAT would be a big incentive to go Linux. Except for one thing,

Is there a Linux Desktop for Palm at all?

RE: That sucks
orb2069 @ 2/12/2004 3:05:42 PM #
Is there a Linux Desktop for Palm at all?

Yes. The two biggies I can think of off the top of my head are:

JPilot: (WM agnostic)
http://jpilot.org/sshots.html

Kpilot: (KDE-based)
http://pim.kde.org/components/kpilot.php
(Which works with Korganizer, the KDE scheduling app)
http://pim.kde.org/components/korganizer.php

And, of course, there's all the command-line applications, rsync daemons, etc, etc. When I was bored one evening, I set my home system up to use the few X-11 connected appliances I had lying around to 'fake' my being home (Switching lights on/off semi-randomly using BottleRocket, etc, etc.) whenever I had a no-time palm date entry that started with 'AWAY' that day.

RE: That sucks
otter @ 2/12/2004 4:10:53 PM #
"If Apple wanted to be in the PDA market, they'd make their own design, as is Steve Jobs custom."

Maybe that's why Palm is dropping Mac support. Maybe they know something the general public does not. Hmmmm.

RE: That sucks
markgm @ 2/12/2004 10:39:51 PM #
That's insane that they are going to drop support. I'd think companies would be working harder to support a wider range of products. This really is disappointing coming from a company like Palm.

Conduit support

cmoney @ 2/11/2004 5:27:28 PM #
Mark/space is great and all, but what does this mean for conduits? I mean if the parent company is no longer supporting Macs, will 3rd parties abandon Mac support altogether then?

Oh well, Sony Ericsson P900 here I come. I'm done with Palm.

Bummer

Kiritan Flux @ 2/11/2004 5:38:45 PM #
Well...that sucks - what a step backwards, now since OS X Panther really got the Mac scene rockin!

Thanks to the Mark/Space guys! They're awesome!

Let's hope Apple will come up with a new Newton PDA with Aqua GUI :)

RE: Bummer
SnoopHawk @ 2/11/2004 6:07:48 PM #
It is extremely difficuly to justify the cost of continued development on a platform which consists of less than 2% worldwide and less than 3% in the US.

Hopefully there will be enough information available that a third party who feels it would be worthwhile to develop the technology could fill the gap.

RE: Bummer
cbowers @ 2/11/2004 6:19:32 PM #
Percent of the market isn't as important a metric as percent of your products purchasers. That would be a far more interesting statistic to know (and not a trivial one for PalmSource to know - though I'm sure they're about to get some good indication).

Just informally, a look around the laptops here at the development conference shows a lot higher penetration than 3%. More likely 30%. Mac laptops even show up behind the conference registration desk, in the hands of corporate PalmOne and Palmsource reps.

I'm a bit surprised PalmSource can't get organized enough to unify the desktop on the two platforms as Apple was able to with iTunes for example. But accepting that, it would seem to make more sense for them (or licensees) to simply license the Markspace stuff as some PalmOne does with PocketMirror. But this may yet happen.

As to Outlook issues. While I do see the need (lots of enterprise pressure here) for some increased compliance, it should be noted that the PalmOS Protein PIM file formats weren't enhanced just for the sake of Outlook. The flexibility in the Protein powered apps file format (XML), means that the schema can be extended with addional fields on the go, and by developers themselves. This is both future proofing, and feature supporting for developers. No longer will the PIM database format be so constraining to progress. Greater Outlook compatibility is just one way to showcase that ability (rather than the root initiator).



RE: Bummer
Midge @ 2/11/2004 6:20:12 PM #
That statement makes sense on the surface, but just because Macs make up "2% worldwide and less than 3% in the US" market-share wise, does NOT address the percentage of total Palm users who tether to Macs, which I think is the real statistic of importance to this conversation. (And which I'd be willing to wager is much higher than 2 or 3%)

RE: Bummer
sgingras @ 2/11/2004 7:04:55 PM #
Regardless...it is a smaller market and developing the code for two different architectures is time consuming and often introduces a lowest common denominator solution...or two separate code bases.

This is not theoretical...I speak from direct experience. I was a Mac OS Developer (started on the Lisa) and a huge Apple zealot. I finally came to the realization, however, that an OS shouldn't be a religion. You should just choose whatever OS makes you more effective....and it became more and more difficult to convince myself that the Mac OS was even keeping pace, let alone outpacing, Windows. I switched to Windows development and have never looked back. The rich array of tools and the user base for my products is massive.

Now, I write mostly server-side code for Unix/Solaris/Linux in Java, but my entire development team uses Windows boxes as our development platform...as has every other team that I have been on in the last 6 to 8 years. It's not a religious decision...it just makes sense. Now when we consider a non-Windows OS, Apple isn't even in the top 3 OS-es that we consider. What about non-developers? Well, I work for a company with over 100,000 white-collar employees...many of whom own Palms...and you could fit all of the Macs in the company in the back of a VW Beetle...and still have room for your groceries. :-)

Flame away, but I applaud Palm for making a tough decision that will most likely reduce development timelines and bring them closer to consistent profitability.

Your mileage may vary.

cheers,
Steve


RE: Bummer
tthiel @ 2/11/2004 10:49:59 PM #
This is not about Apples market share it is about Palms resources. Palm is in deep trouble and cannot afford to develop for Mac OS X. For the guy who claims he is a Java developer and Mac OS X is not even in the top three well your just not paying attention

RE: Bummer
sgingras @ 2/11/2004 11:56:22 PM #
Well...you are certainly entitled to your opinion. :-) ...but I write software for a living and have for quite a few years. The software that I have developed includes both custom-built systems and consumer products...and when we make decisions like the one Palm has announced today, it is a simple business decision...a cost benefit analysis...not an indication that we are about to go bankrupt. :-)

Palm should be worried...phones are converging with PDAs and lightweight affordable tablet PCs are on the horizon. Look at their recent acquisitions. They may come out on top or they may end up out in the cold, but (in my humble opinion) abandoning the Mac will not be a significant factor. They have bigger fish to fry.

Of course, I may be wrong...but I will say one more thing...ever since leaving the Mac OS fold I have stopped taking each slight to the OS that I use as a personal affront. My OS is no longer my religion. Now, it's just a tool to which I hardly give a second thought. I understand your passion however...keep up the good fight.

cheers,
Steve


RE: Bummer
cbowers @ 2/12/2004 12:35:11 AM #
"Regardless...it is a smaller market and developing the code for two different architectures is time consuming and often introduces a lowest common denominator solution...or two separate code bases."

Hmmm, examples such as Internet Explorer, MS Office, iTunes, doesn't seem to bear out your lowest common denominator theory.


RE: Bummer
;-) @ 2/12/2004 12:50:24 AM #
Well...you are certainly entitled to your opinion. :-) ...but I write software for a living and have for quite a few years. The software that I have developed includes both custom-built systems and consumer products...and when we make decisions like the one Palm has announced today, it is a simple business decision...a cost benefit analysis...not an indication that we are about to go bankrupt. :-)

Palm should be worried...phones are converging with PDAs and lightweight affordable tablet PCs are on the horizon. Look at their recent acquisitions. They may come out on top or they may end up out in the cold, but (in my humble opinion) abandoning the Mac will not be a significant factor. They have bigger fish to fry.

Of course, I may be wrong...but I will say one more thing...ever since leaving the Mac OS fold I have stopped taking each slight to the OS that I use as a personal affront. My OS is no longer my religion. Now, it's just a tool to which I hardly give a second thought. I understand your passion however...keep up the good fight.

cheers,
Steve


How dare you try to post something intelligent here! You only have real world experience and common sense. You've got a lot of nerve responding to all the 12 year old Mac Kiddiez cumming out of the woodwork. I hope you've learned your lesson.




It's just too big.

RE: Bummer
sgingras @ 2/12/2004 11:18:57 AM #
:-)

RE: Bummer
tthiel @ 2/12/2004 11:44:35 AM #
I design very large architectures for a living for some of the biggest companies in the world. People like you report to me.
Read and learn;
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/32837.html
"Michael Swenson, life sciences computing analyst at research firm IDC, told the E-Commerce Times that Apple's Unix-based Mac OS X has been the driver of Mac popularity in such areas as bioinformatics and chemistry, mainly because porting open-source applications from Linux and Unix has become a trivial process."
"It's safe to say that, since Mac OS X became widely adopted, there has been an increase of use within [the scientific] community," Gray told the E-Commerce Times. "Scientists tend to prefer Unix (including Linux) over anything else, and Mac OS X is a revelation. You can compile all of your stuff: source code, projects, scientific subroutines. Mac OS X provides a nice environment for all of them."
"Indeed, as senior software engineer at the MIT Whitehead Institute for Genome Research, William Van Etten once needed four computers to do his work: a Windows box for productivity , a Unix box for development, a Linux computer for Linux development and a notebook computer. When Mac OS X became viable, Van Etten was able to slim down to a single computer: a Mac."

PC users love to complain about how Mac advocates are all fanatics, they are jealous because it's pretty hard to get excited about Windows XP and Pentium 4's whereas Mac hardware and the OS are years ahead of anything Intel or Microsoft have to offer. AMD has the only process and system architecture even close to Apples. I have access to and buy any kind of high end systems and OS's I choose and after years as a Technical Architect OS X is clearly the leader by several years. With the introduction of the G5 that lead is cemented in hardware as well.


RE: Bummer
igorigor @ 2/12/2004 12:42:07 PM #

someone writes:
"My OS is no longer my religion. Now, it's just a tool to which I hardly give a second thought"
I am afraid this dear someone himself became a tool with
the passage of years.
Why resign yourself to mediocrity, dude?
If I wanted Outlook compliance I would buy an IPaq or a RIM Blackberry. It is bad enough that my corporate overlords oblige me to carry these infernal objects.
I enjoyed Palm from the start because it's simple was
early Macaesque.
Macs sucked for a long time, but since I bought my
wife a Powerbook, I fell in love with Macs again.
And I would not call my affair a religion.
It's pure fun and delight, if there is a OS religion,
it is the corporate worship of Taliban, ahem, M$.

RE: Bummer
sgingras @ 2/12/2004 1:37:43 PM #
Why so hostile folks? Hmmm?

Okay, enough politeness...since you folks don't seem to care. OS X for enterprise development? You are kidding me right? NO ONE uses it for enterprise servers and Apple has all but completely lost even a niche market in the desktop market....including K-12.


Market share is not only small...it is shrinking:

"Except for Windows and Linux, all other operating environments saw a drop in revenue in 2002."

Source: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/it_res/article.php/3088961

Market share aside...who's out on the web? (which discounts the huge advantage Unix, Linux, and Windows have over OS X...so these are your best possible numbers):

"The 3 most popular operating systems are:

1. Windows 97.46%
2. Macintosh 1.43%
3. Linux 0.26%

All numbers are an average of the last 2 months. OneStat.com is the number one provider of real-time website analysis software in the world."

Source:
http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox10.html


Have a nice day.

The bell tolls for Apple
;-) @ 2/12/2004 11:28:09 PM #
The 3 most popular operating systems are:

1. Windows 97.46%
2. Macintosh 1.43%
3. Linux 0.26%


Of course, those stats were from 18 months ago. Apple's probably switched numbers with Linux by now. Ouch.


;-)




It's just too big.

RE: Bummer
sgingras @ 2/13/2004 12:07:37 AM #
:-) :-) :-)

RE: Bummer
tychay @ 2/14/2004 4:41:46 AM #
Funny you quote a number for 2002 when the XServe wasn't introduced until that very year. I'm pretty certain Apple's market share in the server market was so small as to not warrant tracking because Apple finally woke up and started supporting both open standards and making the Mac finally play friendly with PC network: Outlook server support in default mail client, Samba 3, etc. Since then it has gone way up (where else do you go from zero?). Enough so that it's probably tracked right now.

I used to build web scrapers. As a rule your scraper always report as being a Windows machine. Heck, many aggregators do just that and most people browsing their banking site HAVE to configure their browser to report the user agent as Windows IE else they don't get past the moronic browser detection code. I believe Mac marketshare has held steady at around 3-5% (more recently the numbers have been higher, but I think its too early to say whether that is permanent). In any case reporting the 2% numbers from a webstat tracking site is... a joke, to say the least.

Also, I call bull**** on your Java development skills. While the Mac's Java benchmarks are worse than an Opteron or Pentium (yes, even the G5 falls short in Java performance), they are still many times better than say...Solaris on Sparc so it puts them well into the acceptable range. Many Java developers find that the built-in 1.4.2, free Xcode, and it being treated as a first class citizen (right on par with ObjectiveC) make the Mac worth the tradeoff, especially in the notebook world. Heck, even me (just a lowly applet/midlet coder when I bother to do Java) knows that Mac OS X Server comes with Tomcat and JBoss preinstalled and activateable with the click of a button <http://developer.apple.com/java/>. The fact that Eclipse no longer completely sucks on it is also a bonus.

Not to say that I expect Java developers will adopt Mac OS X en-masse. Just that you must not be in a decision-making position with respect to platform choice for Java development. Else you would have seen this recent Slashdot aricle at the minimum: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/05/024208

What this has to do with Palm? Absolutely nothing. You never dealt with the fundamental worry: while Macs represent may 3% of new PC sales, the installed base of Mac users who represent Palm marketshare is obviously much higher than 3% (due to the lack of choice, and the relative wealth of Mac users... heck these people can spend $400 on an MP3 player, I think they're just the sort of market Palm approaches with a PDA). Palm dropping support opens the door wide to PocketPC and Symbian.

And lest you think Mac users are too much zealots (as you claim) to consider PocketPC, then remember that Microsoft has been the #1 software vendor in terms of revenue in the Mac market since long before there was even a Windows.

--
terry chay

http://www.mycasanetwork.com/- Personal Monitoring Services

RE: Bummer
grg @ 2/14/2004 9:15:05 PM #
>market share is not only small...it is shrinking:

You can count me in that 97% marketshare. I have 5 or 6 peecees at home. Total Daily Average usage time: 45 mins.
I also have ONE mac. Total Daily Average usage time: 5 hours.

And yes, I surf a lot with the mac each day. I just don't recall visiting any site that is OneStat's client. You should really know OneStat is measuring traffic on a small sample of 50.000 sites they cover (the WWW is several billion pages).
I also helped building from components over 10 PeeCees to friends that don't know what a computer is. They haven't been using them for over 30 mins a week and they certainly haven't paid yet a cent for upgrading hardware or software.

Nevertheless, it's just funny hearing about "mac zealots" and "advocates". "Wintel fanboys" and "Micro$oft lovers" sound even funnier.

As an Amiga guy
1) I know to recognise the best
2) I know a few things about loyalty

MacOSX is really the best OS a desktop can have. Solaris and, to a less extent. Linux are the best options for enterprise computing. Feel free to disagree.

PalmSource, as a company, has every right not to directly support Mac even if it seems like a huge mistake in every regard. I, as a customer and developer, I have every right to feel insulted and obliged to complain.

Good Riddance

Gekko @ 2/11/2004 5:42:14 PM #
Palm is focusing its limited resources on the 96%+ of the world out there that uses PCs. F the other ~4% fringe.



RE: Good Riddance
bleedingedge @ 2/11/2004 7:51:44 PM #
Suck it, Gekko. Small-minded drone. Chances are your doctor is saying, "great, how am I going to remember the dosages for Gekko's antipsychotic medications now that my Palm handheld won't work with my incredible G5?"

RE: Good Riddance
The Black Moose @ 2/11/2004 8:05:02 PM #
Okay, so Apple owns a small share in the desktop computing business. Some sources indicate ~40% of palm users use Macintosh. It might be logical to ditch a desktop software, but not in this case when Macintosh makes a good percentage of users of palm products.

I am really beginning to despise windows. Windows, get out of the mobile devices, you can keep your desktop OS.
RE: Good Riddance
Gekko @ 2/11/2004 8:41:45 PM #
RE: Good Riddance
sgingras @ 2/12/2004 12:06:24 AM #
40% !!! I smell cooked numbers. :-)

RE: Good Riddance
Drmike @ 2/12/2004 2:08:28 AM #
""Palm is focusing its limited resources on the 96%+ of the world out there that uses PCs. F the other ~4% fringe.

What a bunch of childish prattle! Typical "I-told-you-so" bull from Windows weasels.

Mercedes and BMW only make 2-3% of the cars in the world, but you don't see Goodyear and Michelin announcing that they won't make tires for that market share becuase its a 'sound business decision' to supoort only mainstream cars.



RE: Good Riddance
;-) @ 2/12/2004 3:02:37 AM #
40% !!! I smell cooked numbers. :-)

Since 95% is greater than 40%, I'll estimate that 95% of Palm users* own Macs.

*who are Apple employees and qualify for free Mac laptops.

Some sources* indicate ~40% of palm users use Macintosh.

*In the Steve Jobs household


It's just too big.

RE: Good Riddance
AJG @ 2/12/2004 11:30:22 AM #
What ever happened to customer loyalty?

-AJ
RE: Good Riddance
tthiel @ 2/12/2004 11:52:16 AM #
Dell has gone to **** ever since they started outsourcing to India. Tech support is a horror story for both home and corporate users. it's gotten so bad that Dell had to mvoe some corproate support back to the states or lose corproate customers.

RE: Good Riddance
madmaxmedia @ 2/12/2004 12:16:33 PM #
Tires are not operating systems. There is no such thing as a BMW-only tire. If BMW's required specially developed tires, then there wouldn't be many tires available for it.

It's interesting that you bring up cars though, I guess even Steven Jobs has referred to his strategy as the 'BMW approach':

http://hbsworkingknowledge.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=3877&t=strategy

The larger problem is that the PDA market is flat or shrinking, not expanding. Because of this, Palm is faced with cutting costs to get in the black rather than relying on future growth to justify current expenses. The percentage of Palm users with Macs may be larger than 3%, but I really doubt it's as high as 30% like someone else suggested. IF it was, I absolutely positively guarantee that Palm would not be dropping Mac support.

The other good point was that even a 3rd party sync solution is not good enough, if 3rd party software suppliers drop Mac conduit support. Maybe MarkSpace can drop the price of their software and court at least the bigger 3rd party developers, since it seems there will be an increase in demand for their software.

RE: Good Riddance
mrmartman @ 2/12/2004 12:21:48 PM #
I suspect that in the long run the decision to drop direct support Mac OS X will have not have much of an impact on Apple's future. If anyone needs to worry, it is Palm! They are going down the same road that so many other software companies have tried; "partnering with the devil".
Look what happened to Netscape and Word Perfect. Look what's happening with today with companies like Real Media, AOL etc. What the Palm people just don't get is that Microsoft will always have the inside track on desktop synchronization. Psion, once a leader in the palm market spent a great deal of it's recsources in trying to make their OS play nice with Windows. In the end, they just couldn't keep up with the OS changes that came out of Redmond. Without support for competing Desktop OS's like Linux and Mac OS X, I'm afraid Palm will become another Psion.

RE: Good Riddance
igorigor @ 2/12/2004 12:53:38 PM #
"F the other ~4%"
That's a big word for such puny brain.
RE: Good Riddance
otter @ 2/12/2004 4:16:45 PM #
"Chances are your doctor is saying, 'great, how am I going to remember the dosages for Gekko's antipsychotic medications now that my Palm handheld won't work with my incredible G5?'"

So what, you're a doctor. You have to announce that in every post, and belittle people who don't agree with you? Some of us are not impressed, no matter how many times you try to impress us. His/her doctor will probably remember the dosages the same way doctors did before Palms came along - with their brains. Failing that, they look them up in books. Remember those?

RE: Good Riddance
bleedingedge @ 2/12/2004 7:04:58 PM #
Gee, otter, bitter much? Who's belittling? Did I even say what I do for living? I don't pretend to be better than anyone else posting here. At least I'm not dropping the F-bomb around in a public forum. You should have seen the first version of my response before my self-control kicked in. Chill out. Figure out how to download the latest security update for your Windoze machine or something.

RE: Good Riddance
;-) @ 2/12/2004 11:35:31 PM #
So what, you're a doctor. You have to announce that in every post,

Actually, she smells like a third year med student.


It's just too big.

RE: Good Riddance
otter @ 2/13/2004 7:35:07 AM #
"Gee, otter, bitter much? Who's belittling? Did I even say what I do for living? I don't pretend to be better than anyone else posting here. At least I'm not dropping the F-bomb around in a public forum. You should have seen the first version of my response before my self-control kicked in. Chill out. Figure out how to download the latest security update for your Windoze machine or something."

Gee, bleeder, defensive much? Thanks for editing your response because I'm sure it would have hurt me and made me cry. Prescribe yourself some Zoloft and have a seat.

RE: Good Riddance
otter @ 2/13/2004 7:43:40 AM #
"Who's belittling?"

And I quote, "Suck it, Gekko. Small-minded drone."

Did I misinterpret your use of flattery?

Well that's it.

4s @ 2/11/2004 5:51:48 PM #
No more waiting for an Apple PalmOS PDA for me.

<><

Apple iSync

Calroth @ 2/11/2004 5:52:21 PM #
If nothing else, expect Apple to support Palm OS Cobalt in iSync, allowing a sync with iCal, Address Book, etc. They already support Palm devices, mobile phones, iPod, etc. etc. It wouldn't be a total solution (no conduits; no way to install files) but it might still be useful if you need it.

RE: Apple iSync
moparshaha @ 2/11/2004 6:00:49 PM #
I hope so too. iSync worked great with my Tungsten. Apple's PIM apps are far superior to the aged Palm Desktop for Mac. I'm really dissapointed in Palm for taking this step. I almost respect MS and PPC more now, at least not having Mac support is expected of them. This is totally uncalled for from Palm. And Gekko, grow up. We don't need child-like comments like that here.

RE: Apple iSync
bmari20007 @ 2/11/2004 6:33:32 PM #
you bring up an interesting and important point. It may be for the same reason that Microsoft cancelled its Internet Explorer browser (a much better, newer Safari they couldn't afford to compete with) may be the reason Palm cancelled its Palm Desktop.

With iSync and other apps from Apple that render Palm Desktop completely irrelevent (other than conduits), how could Palm hope to compete? Apple is taking care of itself just fine and its users need not worry about linking their Palms to a Mac. Its about as disturbing as not having IE for Mac anymore (oh no!!!)

RE: Apple iSync
bmari20007 @ 2/11/2004 6:38:10 PM #
don't be surprised to find iSync support for installing files and conduits in the near future, if not direct support for transferring files to and from a Palm Pilot via Cobalt itself.

RE: Apple iSync
cbowers @ 2/11/2004 6:40:01 PM #
Fortunately hotsyncing as a means of backup, software installation, and conduit communication with 3rd party apps waning.

I split my time between Linux, MacOS, and Windows, and even on my office Windows desktop I don't generally use Hotsync for backup and software installation. And with connected devices and native file handling, a good many of the apps that used to use conduits, now do the network word themselves, or work with the files directly rather than let conduits do the lifting.

I would venture that we'll see an increasing trend to the sharing of data being done directly client server over TCP/IP between the handhelds/handsets and both server and desktop applications.

Especially with the growning number of smartphones, many of which will infrequently or never come in direct physical contact with the desktop. It's a theme that has been directed to developers here at the conference. Software download and purchase can be OTA, and wireless exchange of data (PIM) or otherwise direct from PDA to PDA, or PDA to Server, and never have your personal desktop involved in the data session to the PDA.

...For everything else, there's Markspace
(apologies to MasterCard)

RE: Apple iSync
dsm363 @ 2/11/2004 6:48:20 PM #
Palm could have handled this a little better, maybe by working with Apple to get iSync support and such.

RE: Apple iSync
jcmorganstein @ 2/11/2004 8:30:26 PM #
Agree with many of the above posts. Feels like a letdown... hopefully Apple with come up with something sufficient... glad there's MarkSpace in the meantime.

However, as a few others have commented, this leaves me wondering where my loyalty lies. I've been a faithful Palm user for nearly 6 years. But, ditching the Mac OS feels like a huge slap. I know, I know! It's just a financial issue. But, it means I'm at the whim of a third party company to continue support. And, if Palm is truly turning their back, that would suggest that intend to put no effort into even allowing future Palm handhelds to be compatible. The best-intentioned third-party company trying to increase compatibility with the Mac OS could be serious hampered if Palm makes connectivity even more diffiult.

I guess the upside is that, as some have commented, most handhelds will be using wireless connectivity in the future. I don't use my desktop app that frequently, but would miss synching with conduits, etc. I'll keep my fingers crossed that MarkSpace can take care of us Mac users. Either way, being cast aside by Palm certainly leaves me feeling more willing than ever to consider a Pocket PC alternative.

-jcm

RE: Apple iSync
Kiritan Flux @ 2/12/2004 4:41:28 AM #
Well...there's always Bluetooth for installing Files, syncing AvantGo online etc. and of course Mark/Space - us Apple users won't have to miss anything, really.

But sitll, it's politically a shame - especially after everything Apple did for Palm.

|
/|
-------------------------------
http://www.kiritanflux.de/palm
-------------------------------

Very disappointing...

Manicorp @ 2/11/2004 6:47:28 PM #
Well, I've used Palm Vx to m505 to Clie NR70 toTT3. The reason for staying with Palm was the PIM, Software, and it's Mac suport. I've recently moved back to mac, although I do use PC at work and have a laptop, but I can't stand using PC. I'm alwasy delighted to come back to Mac OS X, Panther. For me, this is very disappointing news. I've come back to TT3 instead of another Clie because of better Mac support. I understand that iSync will probably support Palm, but it is not complete package by any means. I owned MissingSync for my clie and it is wonderful program but at the end, I wanted to go with hardware that fully supported Mac so I returned to TT3. Now, I'm not sure where I'll end up using in the future. Maybe I'll buy PPC... Nah... but seriously, this is a major step backword for expanding Palm market when Mac community is finally growing.

I for one is very very disappointed!

Sam

Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue

Alric @ 2/11/2004 7:16:19 PM #
Can't palmsource see that a reason many people buy Palm is not to buy an M$-controlled device. And these very same people, for the same reasons, are more likely to buy a Mac than a PC?

Everyone I know, EVERYONE, that owns a Palm also owns a Mac.

Let's be honest PPCs are very good and have more solutions for a similar if not better price. How long have we been waiting for the SD wireless card while PPCs have had CF and SD cards for a while. How sorry is the GPS status in Palms? How badly is video and audio supported by Palms compared to PPCs?

With a lack of native Mac support by palmsource I see no reason why my next PDA will not be a PPC.

Cheers,

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
rsc1000 @ 2/11/2004 7:43:45 PM #
>>Everyone I know, EVERYONE, that owns a Palm also owns a Mac.

Everyone i know who owns a Palm owns a PC. And the statistics are on my side. Palm did the right thing. they are a relatively small company with a product that has expanded in scope as PDAs have become more feature rich. Quite frankly - doubling ALL of there desktop efforts to support a minority of MAC users is INSANE. Its just not profitiable or sensible. The few conduits i developed for Palm apps were only for PC - i didnt think twice about supporting Macs - and im hardly the only one.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
Alric @ 2/11/2004 8:06:22 PM #
I think that rather than repeating spoonfed statistics you should look around you and the experience of others. There are more Palm/Mac users than the "statistics" would lead you to beleive.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
rsc1000 @ 2/11/2004 8:25:23 PM #
>>I think that rather than repeating spoonfed statistics you should look around you and the experience of others. There are more Palm/Mac users than the "statistics" would lead you to beleive.
I am looking around me and ALL of the palm users i know use PCs. I dont even know anybody who uses a Mac (makes sense - since they are %3 of computer users).

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
rsc1000 @ 2/11/2004 8:25:23 PM #
Let me go further. Statistics show that %3 of computer users use Macs. I accept the notion that more than %3 of Palm users use Macs. How much more? Well we dont have the numbers - but i'll play along and say that it is 5 times (serious freeakin doubt it - but for the sake of argument) that amount - say %15 of Palm users are Mac people. So? Palm should spend %50 of its desktop development on %15 of the market? Do know how small PalmSource is compared to MS, Apple, Sony, HP, etc, etc, etc???? Do you know how much more complex development support has become for PalmSource with the addiotal features that they now support (you know - the features everbody here whinnes about not having enough of)? Y ou are not reprentative of all of Palm users. Amongst business users (an important chunk of Palm device sales) NOBODY USES MACS. Nobody. I have worked for/with a dozen companies over the last 5 years and NOT ONE MAC was seen on anybodies desktop at any of these companies (though i admit that i havent done any work with graphic design firms - which is the major users of Macs in the biz world). Not one. All of the Palms in these office emviroments were connected to PCs.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
Wollombi @ 2/11/2004 8:32:23 PM #
But they still are far outnumbered by Palm/PC users. The statistics are important, because all kinds of people buy PalmOS powered products regardless of what desktop OS they use, if any. Hell, many folks don't ever sync to their desktops, so it all becomes a non-issue at that point.

Just because *you* use Mac, and everyone *you* know uses Mac; well that's a pretty limited viewpoint compared to the overall scheme of things. Just because most everyone I know uses some sort of Unix based OS doesn't mean that Unix/Linux rules the market (yet). You would take that statement as preposterous, but the same logic is behind your Mac statement.

Keep in mind that the PalmSource PIM's never synced well with Mac anyway unless you added the Missing Sync software, so what has really changed? All PalmSource has done is remove a mediocre performing middle piece that was virtually useless to Mac users anyway, and especially so now with iLife.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
Alric @ 2/11/2004 8:43:29 PM #
If you can cite a reference to the proportion of PC users to Mac users that own palms I would appreciated, because I can't find it....

Like it was mentioned by another poster. Palm users have been proposed to be up to 40% Mac users.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
The Black Moose @ 2/11/2004 9:41:45 PM #
Somebody claims to have no friends with Macintosh computers. This is likely the truth. I am not implying that they have a lack of friends.

Now hear this:

From what I understand, Macintosh seems to come about in regions. Out here in Pennsylvania, Macintosh is spread thinly. In other areas, especially the western section of the United States, Macintosh gains a bit more popularity and comes about in clusters.

Odd situation, but it would explain how one individual can have all his palm friends owning Macintosh while another claims all his palm friends own an IBM compatible PC. What I have told you is true as far as my sources indicate.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
abosco @ 2/11/2004 10:21:24 PM #
>>Let's be honest PPCs are very good and have more solutions for a similar if not better price. How long have we been waiting for the SD wireless card while PPCs have had CF and SD cards for a while. How sorry is the GPS status in Palms? How badly is video and audio supported by Palms compared to PPCs?

And let's be honest - that's almost all now supported, so whatever you just said is moot. PPCs and Palms offer similar features at similar price points, so no points to either one there. Sandisk's SD Wifi card is the fault of Sandisk, not PalmSource, so I don't see your point there. And if your device has a CF slot, you can use a CF Wifi card - knock yourself out. The GPS status in Palm is fine, considering the Garmin iQue is out, as well as dozens of other sleds and Bluetooth options. And audio and video? Did you even read the part about that being incorporated in OS 6? No? Are you oblivious to news and enjoy selective reading?

If you want Mac support, buy Missing Sync, like always. Your points are not valid.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
cbowers @ 2/12/2004 12:37:21 AM #
"I am looking around me and ALL of the palm users i know use PCs. I dont even know anybody who uses a Mac (makes sense - since they are %3 of computer users)."

Well I'm looking around me at the developer conference, and about 30% of the laptops here among PalmOS developers are from Apple.

RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
Alric @ 2/12/2004 10:19:27 AM #
[quote]Sandisk's SD Wifi card is the fault of Sandisk, not PalmSource, so I don't see your point there.[/quote]

My point is that its not available, no matter the cause. The equivalent has been available for PPCs for ages.

[quote]And if your device has a CF slot, you can use a CF Wifi card - knock yourself out.[/quote]

Which Palm is that?

[quote]And audio and video? Did you even read the part about that being incorporated in OS 6?[/quote]

Do you have OS 6; because I don't and PPCs have been able to display native mpgs, DiVX and other formats for ages..

GPS is not so bad. Just terribly expensive and more restricitive than the stuff you find for PPCs.

Cheers,


RE: Palm because of dislike of M$; no longer an issue
bcombee @ 2/13/2004 8:19:46 PM #
One of the prizes for entrants in the PalmHack VI competition at PalmSource 2004 was a WiFi SDIO card with beta drivers for Palm OS. It looks like the wait will be over soon. :)

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

F*** them

Winter_ @ 2/11/2004 7:29:48 PM #
Well, THAT's bitter.
I was about to buy a Tungsten a week ago; I decided to wait after reading here about the OS 6 rumours. Now I am OH-SO-GLAD I waited!!
Because now I can forget about Palm and just go for a Linux-capable iPaq. That way I can choose whatever OS I want to use in my desktop.

Damn them.



RE: F*** them
rsc1000 @ 2/11/2004 7:47:12 PM #
Your statment makes no sense as there is and will continue to be - better support for syncing Palms to Macs then there is for syncing Linux PDAs to Macs.

RE: F*** them
Winter_ @ 2/12/2004 5:34:34 AM #
My statement makes sense because now Palm seems not to want my Mac-user money.
I have two options now: pay extra to use a underpowered device (I need more Java than a crippled CLDC) made by a firm that doesn't welcome me, or get a Linux capable machine that lets me do whatever I want. I'll surely have to fight but I'll be able to go further - and freely.

I'm now just getting info on the familiar distribution (familiar.handhelds.org).

mistake

mike_c @ 2/11/2004 8:45:48 PM #
Definitely have to throw in my 2c here and say I that this is really a shame, and doesn't do Palm's image a lot of good.
However, if the rumours that Apple are working on a pda of their own are true things could turn out to be interesting. A pda/ipod with bluetooth maybe?
RE: mistake
Alric @ 2/11/2004 8:55:58 PM #
Maybe they will decide to put the final nail in the Palm coffin by releasing the PDA equivalent to the iPod.

No Big Deal

chewer @ 2/11/2004 9:29:18 PM #
I can't blame Palm for this and doubt Apple will either. I have a Mac and this does not bother me at all. I will continue to support the Palm OS whether they include synchronization to the Mac or not.

Stupid :P

rory @ 2/11/2004 10:14:56 PM #
Ok first lets get some facts straight here.

The cost of developing a Mac version of the software is not the same as the cost of developing it for Windows, so saying it costs twice as much to support two platforms is simply wrong. For example when a game is ported to the Mac, like Halo for example, the game isn't rewritten from the scratch, the code is simply modified and recompiled for the new platform, thus the development cost is *significantly* less than the initial cost of development for Windows, XBox, or what ever.

All Palm needs to do is provide interoperability with the existing Mac OS X PIM apps, like iCal, Address Book, iPhoto and so on, so there is no extra development cost in rewriting such applications. Apple uses open standards with it's applications for data storage and syncing, they don't have to backwards engineer some proprietary Microsoft format.

Essentially all they need to do is produce a driver, the bulk of the work is going to be a one off job. 3rd parties will happily fill in the gaps but only if Palm PDAs ship with some kind of basic sync functionality, even if it's only backup and file installation. Because if it's not got a Mac compatible logo on the box it will never leave the store shelf if a Mac user sees it.

They are throwing away a captive market - if a Mac user is going to buy a PDA they don't really have a choice between PPC or Palm, because only Palm has offered out of the box support. Dropping Mac support loses them customers, and as a result money and market share. Even if they only lose say 5% of their market share to give a conservative figure, that might be enough to make PPC seem the dominant PDA platform, and because of the bad press that will generate it will be down hill from there, it happened to Apple and the same thing will happen in the Palm world. No tech analyst anywhere will ever say Microsoft is going to curl up and die if they lose market share but they will rip the flesh from the bones of any corporation that starts to lose to Microsoft because it's assumed that's it's death knell, and it's down hill from there. Perhaps when Palm is a niche player with 5% of the handheld market those who lambast Mac users will see why we get so upset when our platform of choice is ridiculed purely for being less popular. Remember popularity in the mass market is rarely based on how good something is, it's based on price, marketing power and peer pressure.

People throw around market share numbers like they know what they are talking about here, but many of you clearly don't. These market share numbers are based on the total sales of different brands of computers over the last year, or quarter or what ever, they don't necessarily reflect the size of the installed base of users. For example because your PC only cost a couple of hundred dollars you are likely to replace it a lot more frequently than a Mac which probably cost you over $1000, thus there are always going to be high PC sales figures in comparison to Mac sales because there is a much higher rate of churn in the PC market. Obviously the total number of Mac users out there is still probably only around 5%, that does not take into account demographics. If that's the 5% of the population most likely to buy your product, then you're shooting yourself in the foot by dropping support for it. The computer market is so large anyway, 5% is still many many millions of people.

And finally this move will only create bad karma for PalmSource, once you lose customers they are not likely to come back, they will find another way of doing things and simply move on. This announcement will almost certainly effect people who would have gone out tomorrow and brought a Mac supporting OS 5 handheld, so once again you're loosing money.

At the end of the day, this decision stinks and was probably made by some book worm trying to save a few more pennies before outsourcing everything but the upper management to which ever country child labor is cheapest in at the moment.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

RE: Stupid :P
;-) @ 2/12/2004 12:29:46 AM #
Well said.


It's just too big.

Pot... Kettle... Black?
jjsoh @ 2/12/2004 12:42:55 AM #
All Palm needs to do is provide interoperability with the existing Mac OS X PIM apps, like iCal, Address Book, iPhoto and so on, so there is no extra development cost in rewriting such applications.

[snip]

People throw around market share numbers like they know what they are talking about here, but many of you clearly don't.

Replace "market share numbers" with something like "development costs" and I'd say you threw your whole argument out the window with these two contradicting statements. That is, unless you are a developer speaking from experience... then I'll probably have to retract that. :)

Still, that's not to say I don't agree about how wrong this announcement is, but at the same time, I don't think I'd discount how much time and money Palmsource would be saving in not continuing Mac support.

Jim

RE: Stupid :P
rory @ 2/12/2004 5:24:01 AM #
Yes I'm a programmer by trade and I develop Mac software.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Stupid :P
madmaxmedia @ 2/12/2004 12:27:16 PM #
[quote]People throw around market share numbers like they know what they are talking about here, but many of you clearly don't.[/quote]

True, but others are throwing around numbers as if Palm doesn't know. I doubt a decision like this was made by just some bookworm accountant, and everyone from top to bottom blindly accepted the decision. There was probably just as much internal debate at Palm as there is here.

I'm not saying that it was the right or wrong decision, just that everyone seems to think that they are so brilliant and the entire company that actually creates and develops Palm software is filled with completely incompetent and blind morons.

Or maybe they are ;)

You're points about actual development costs are very good, it doesn't literally cost DOUBLE to support Mac.

Essentially, you've got 2 numbers to compare- the % of total cost to support Mac, and the % of Palm users that use Macs. The closer the 2 numbers, the greater the argument for continuing Mac support even if strictly by P&L there's a small loss. Because we all know that discontinuing Mac support brings additional factors like loss of goodwill among some Palm users, etc.

I guess my point is that I am pretty certain Palm tried to account for all these factors in making a decision. They may have not done a 100% accurate job in assessing these different factors, but it's not like they're so stupid as not to be aware of these different factors either (this is not in reference to your post, just a general point).

RE: Stupid :P
ganoe @ 2/12/2004 3:35:35 PM #
> Apple uses open standards with it's applications for
> data storage and syncing

As someone who has been trying to find developer's info on iSync to help create an OS X sync solution for the Zaurus, I can tell you that whatever standard Apple is currently using is not open. I hope that changes soon.

RE: Stupid :P
rory @ 2/12/2004 5:42:49 PM #
I have a feeling that iSync itself is a bit of a hack at the moment, the way it does Palm syncing certainly seems that way and might be why it's so damned slow compared to a regular Palm desktop sync.

But iCal uses an open standard for storing calendars, and the address book APIs are fully open to developers, why not just bypass iSync altogether? It's not hard to throw together a quick metal app in Interface Builder & Xcode that looks like iSync. AppleScript can probably be used to bridge the gap else where if there isn't an obvious documented API to do something.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

Understandable but disturbing

Eutychus @ 2/11/2004 10:30:49 PM #
First, it is an understandable business decision. As people have said above there are business reasons that make full support expensive for the investment. Though it is interesting MarkSpace can make money serving the Mac market.

Second, it does seem to be less significant considering the syncronization software on the Mac, Apple's iSync. And as others mentioned above, there is less need to sync with a desktop regardless. I have often used a card reader to move files between my handheld and the desktop.

But it is not insignificant that this has been announced in this way. It does seem intended to offend. If Apple can make a decent return on selling to 3% of the market and that 3% is too small for Palm, perhaps Apple will be motivated with an OS X mini-tablet.

I have liked my Clie and it still works acceptably well. I could imagine using a Palm based phone but now I am not sure I will use a Palm handheld in the future. Among my friends, most use MicroSoft brand computers. But when they have been looking into handhelds, I encouraged them to use the Palm OS for all the reasons we know. One Mac user in this case was worth 9 Palm devices. The rock they tossed into the pool of users could have unforeseen ripples.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
jtopf @ 2/11/2004 11:23:10 PM #
iSync requires a functioning Palm Desktop and hotsync software to work. I uses the hotsync software to communicate with the palm. I doubt iSync as it is today will work with cobalt.

The other issue that is not clear is what the implications are due to the fact that PalmSource is not Palm anymore. I suspect that PalmOne knows that it sells alot of palms to mac users and will license missingsync and continue to label the box as mac compatible. I bet this becomes a non-story when the cobalt hardware finally ships, (except on sony)

jt

Mac Cultists: get your Kool Aid here.
;-) @ 2/12/2004 12:34:01 AM #
Though it is interesting MarkSpace can make money serving the Mac market.


Missing Sync costs $30 - 40 and every penny of that goes to Mark/Space, Inc for R+D, profits, etc. How many of those Mac WHINERS here would be willing to pay an extra $30 - 40 to Palm for out of the box syncing with Macs? More likely, they'd complain saying how expensive Palms are, why can't they be as cheap as PPC, blah blah blah.

Bottom line: syncing is getting to be very old school now that expandable media's here, there are other options available, and the Mac Cultists need to relax and take another sip of their Jonestown flavored Kool Aid.


It's just too big.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
Mandroid @ 2/12/2004 1:19:52 AM #
Do you have to be so derogatory and insulting to every Palm user here who happens to also be a Mac user? I'm not a "cultist" and I don't drink the kool-aid. I happen to use a PC and a Mac, and I just happen to like Mac OS X a lot.

I don't know why it would make me or anyone else a whiner to be disappointed to hear that this has happened.

From my perspective, I've ALWAYS only considered buying Palm OS devices because of the Mac support, and I've personally always found a lot of common ground among the Palm OS community and the Mac community.

But frankly, some of the vitriol here from Palm users telling me that I am a whiner and a cultist because I happen to like using my Mac too really ticks me off, and it's not what I've come to expect from Palm users (it's frankly the kind of junk I expect to here when I venture into a forum of PocketPC people).

At this point, I am still more likely than not to buy a Palm OS device than a PocketPC, but now that the "Mac support" factor is not really a factor (i.e. I'll need to buy a MarkSpace solution or PocketMac or something else no matter what), it makes the decision among future platforms a little more difficult.

I will still likely stick to the Palm OS though because I consider it to be the superior interface and experience, and I do not like the way most PocketPC's work. But I'm still disappointed.

And I guess I'm most disappointed seeing someone like you telling me I should suck it up and that presumably it's my fault and I am some sort of cultist because I am a Mac user.

-Mandroid

RE: Whining about Mean Old Palm. Waaaaaaaaa!
;-) @ 2/12/2004 2:24:09 AM #
Mac users are a lot of tortured whiners that remind us of those Goth kiddies from high school that used to sit around art class depressing the he11 out of each other with their sad little life stories. Woe is me! Is that available for Mac? Is there a workaround for Mac? Sure my Mac costs twice what your PC costs, but it's just SUCH a better interface/design/shade of orange translucent plastic. I love it when Steve Jobs scr3ws me! Wheeeeee!

I'm actually sorry to see Palm formally withdrawing from supporting this fringe OS. Really. Loss of flexibility is never good for ANY platform. But will anything be much different than it currently is? Nope. Suck it in and move on. No one put a gun to your head and made you choose Mac. It's like people that choose a real wood burning fireplace over a gas one. You have your reasons so you accept the consequences. Until I saw the CLIE UX, I'd considered getting an old PSION and finally dumping my Palms. After 6 or 7 years with the platform. But had I chosen an almost-extinct platform like the PSION, I sure as he11 wouldn't go around moaning about how I'd been "abandoned". If something doesn't work, use an alternative. It's funny to read all these empty threats about moving to PPC. You all know PPC is a joke, Palm/Sony hardware is about to top PPC's, and you're not going anywhere, so cut the WHINING.


It's just too big.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
rory @ 2/12/2004 5:30:40 AM #
So because one manufacturer is dominant in a market the competition should just shut up shop and every one should just switch over to what ever Joe Average uses? When you presents the facts of why Palm is better and the hoards of PPCs users sneer and tell you to come off the kool aid. Well as soon as Palm becomes a marginal platform and someone tells you to stop whining and leave your cult of Palm users I hope you know how we feel.

A lot of people use Macs because they see them as simply a better tool for the job. It's that simple, it's not because they (used to) come in pretty colours or because someone forced us to drink kool aid. Look how much of the market the iPod commands, are all those iPod owners cultists too because they decided to go with an Apple product?

For some reason a depressingly large number of PC users just can't deal with that and have to go around calling Mac users cult members, or elitist snobs the whole time. Since you guys can no longer moan about Macs being proprietary and inoperable with Windows you have to resort to personal insults? Geez take a look at yourselves...

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

RE: Understandable but disturbing
mikecane @ 2/12/2004 8:34:00 AM #
>>>Mac users are a lot of tortured whiners that remind us of those Goth kiddies from high school that used to sit around art class depressing the he11 out of each other with their sad little life stories.

What a little creep you are. Keep posting and keep showing that fact to everyone around here.

And if you indeed have a sneak picture of the new UX, it's only because you're violating the terms of your internship at Sony. You can't be trusted by anybody.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
Foo Fighter @ 2/12/2004 11:17:30 AM #
I really can't stand people who make blanket statements like this. How can you possibly label an entire group of users based on the hardware they use? That's like saying PT Cruiser owners are homosexuals, just because the car they drive has unique styling. While I won't dispute that many Mac users DO behave like elitist snobs at times, your analogy is incorrect and inappropriate. I see desktop operating systems as an artist would canvas and paint brushes. They are TOOLS. You use a computer to perform tasks, whatever those may be. It all comes down to what you feel comfortable. I'm a multi platform user myself. My primary workstation is a Pentium 4 based PC running Windows XP, my secondary system is a G4 iMac running Panther. And I have a very old Pentium II box running Linux, just to putter around with (though I rarely use it since Linux has limited value to me).

It may help broaden your horizons to actually try a different platform once. You will learn a great deal, and sharpen your skills. I used to be purely a Windows guy. Then I started playing around with Linux for fun, which I didn't much care for, and more recently I adopted Macintosh. The experience has been fun and enlightening. You have to be open minded.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, Digital Media Thoughts
Editor, Pocketfactory.com

Stereotypes exist for a reason.
;-) @ 2/12/2004 11:44:44 PM #
PT Cruiser owners are elderly fools.

VW Cabriolet owners are homosexuals. Get it straight.

;-O


It's just too big.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
Winter_ @ 2/13/2004 5:02:53 AM #
((1)But had I chosen an almost-extinct platform like the PSION, I sure as he11 wouldn't go around moaning about how I'd been "abandoned".If something doesn't work, use an alternative. (2)It's funny to read all these empty threats about moving to PPC. You all know PPC is a joke, Palm/Sony hardware is about to top PPC's, and you're not going anywhere, so cut the WHINING."

Well, that looks contradictory. In (2) you declare PPCs to be a joke. But, following (1), which PDA platform is "almost-extinct"? Certainly I only know 3 people owning a Palm; one was a gift bought by me and the other two bought by friends convinced by me against PPCs. Two of them use Mac(s), like me; the other is eyeing them. The rest of the people I know use Windows, considering Palms a (bad) joke. ("how many RAM, you said?")

"Palm/Sony hardware is about to top PPCs"? Hey, you were the one talking about Kool-Aid, weren't you?. The fact is, if I go out right now (and for the last month at least) I can buy an iPaq h1930 by little more than a Tungsten E and try Linux in it. My problems with that were that I didn't want to be counted up as a PPC buyer (M$ makes me sick); I also wanted to pay back to Palm for (kind of) supporting Macs; and I preferred the easier way that Palm oferred. Now second and third arguments no longer are an issue. In fact HP is deserving some support for helping freedom in their platform.

Apart from that, I found really disturbing that the just-one-year-ago-for-heaven's-sake-top-class T|T now is quite left in the cold (no OS upgrade, no WME support). However, even with WME, java looks worrying in the platform, asking for half-solutions like GCJ or the like. Another example of customer abandonment: the infamous bluetooth card drivers subject. And now the Cobalt news just aggravates the perceived tendency. Perceived by me at least :P. And, how many people here has justified the Mac support flush because "Palm is in economic trouble"? Reminds me of the "almost-extinct platform" argument again.

SO: why do you say (2)? Are PPCs really a joke, man? Is that childishness or zealotry? Funny coming from the "shup up kiddie, have your kool aid" Man :P

RE: Understandable but disturbing
Winter_ @ 2/13/2004 5:22:13 AM #
I forgot to make a point: as I just said, M$ makes me sick. THAT'S WHY I run away from anything Windows: and that's why I have a Mac, and why I like(d?) Palm. Someone who uses Windows (voluntarily) surely has better tolerance for M$, and then why not follow the pack and get a PPC that integrates with everything so nicely? (*chuckle*)

And that's why I feel Palm has gone VERY wrong with the Mac OS support news. Folks into Palm have a probability to be into Macs - and other deviations that make computing FUN. :P

Like someone said, just hearing that Palm was specifically targetting Outlook sounded worrying enough...

Have someone explain it to you, Winter
;-) @ 2/13/2004 10:25:28 PM #
Well, that looks contradictory. In (2) you declare PPCs to be a joke. But, following (1), which PDA platform is "almost-extinct"? Certainly I only know 3 people owning a Palm; one was a gift bought by me and the other two bought by friends convinced by me against PPCs. Two of them use Mac(s), like me; the other is eyeing them. The rest of the people I know use Windows, considering Palms a (bad) joke. ("how many RAM, you said?")

"Palm/Sony hardware is about to top PPCs"? Hey, you were the one talking about Kool-Aid, weren't you?. The fact is, if I go out right now (and for the last month at least) I can buy an iPaq h1930 by little more than a Tungsten E and try Linux in it. My problems with that were that I didn't want to be counted up as a PPC buyer (M$ makes me sick); I also wanted to pay back to Palm for (kind of) supporting Macs; and I preferred the easier way that Palm oferred. Now second and third arguments no longer are an issue. In fact HP is deserving some support for helping freedom in their platform.

Apart from that, I found really disturbing that the just-one-year-ago-for-heaven's-sake-top-class T|T now is quite left in the cold (no OS upgrade, no WME support). However, even with WME, java looks worrying in the platform, asking for half-solutions like GCJ or the like. Another example of customer abandonment: the infamous bluetooth card drivers subject. And now the Cobalt news just aggravates the perceived tendency. Perceived by me at least :P. And, how many people here has justified the Mac support flush because "Palm is in economic trouble"? Reminds me of the "almost-extinct platform" argument again.

SO: why do you say (2)? Are PPCs really a joke, man? Is that childishness or zealotry? Funny coming from the "shup up kiddie, have your kool aid" Man :P

I realize English is your second language so I'll be gentle.

PSION is essentially as dead as Apple's Newton. Interesting hardware, stable, decent apps, but still killed by inept marketing. Palm remains the dominant PDA platfom in 2004 - despite PPC's recent gains (which have been heavily subsidized, by the way). Try to understand that what you and your friends buy means nothing in terms of where the market is overall. If you and everyone you know exclusively used REXs, would tht mean REX was taking over from Palm?

Sony's hardware IS about to top the PPC hardware. Palm's designs are already more creative than most PPC vendors, but Palm has been let down by their second rate Chinese manufacturing.

Do you think Linux on a PPC is a good thing? I don't. Just like I wouldn't want a Palm running Windows XP. PDAs aren't desktops or laptops. They need an interface that works for what they are designed to do.

Your claimed "loyalty" is unbelievable. Really.

I can't decipher your penultimate paragraph. Perhaps you can translate it for us all.

I say PPC is a joke compared to Palm for a number of reasons and I think those looking at the issue OBJECTIVELY will agree.

- A few Palm advantages:

1) Software - almost anything you can think of doing on a PDA has been written for PalmOS. You won't just won't find the same variety of apps for PPC. And the volume of good freeware apps is impressive.

2) Integration with core Windows desktop apps - third party apps (increasingly being bundled with new Palms/CLIEs) link more completely with apps like Word, Excel, Money, etc. than PPC.

3) Hardware diversity. Sony, Palm, Tapwave, Palm's Treo, etc. give wider choices than PPC.

4) Interface - simpler, faster and more intuitive.

5) Stability.

6) Developer community.


Palm platform's disadvantages:

The best PDAs (CLIEs) use Memory Stick and CompactFlash is not available on any new Palms.

Limited expansion (nonexistent SDIO).

Limited connectivity (802.11b, Bluetooth)

Working against Microsoft.

Loss of momentum.

"Ambitious" pricing of PalmOS smartphones. Symbian will eat Palm alive unless the prices are cut.




It's just too big.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
rory @ 2/14/2004 7:28:05 AM #
Sony may produce very decent speced PDAs but they have some very clear disadvantages too:

- Cost. Their high end PDAs tend to be expensive (in some cases really expensive), they use MemorySticks which are one of the most expensive types of media card, their peripherals are expensive - they don't even ship with cradles for the most part! I say this as someone who owned an a Clie, but I brought a Zire 71 when I realise upgrading mine to the same functionality would actually cost about the same as buying the Zire! (MP3 player addition, memory stick camera, 64MB MS)

- Poor UI design. I've seen this again and again from Sony, they produce very shiny, very wizzy looking interfaces but which end up being inflexible and awkward to use.

- Proprietary. They tend to use non-standard sound and video libraries locking you into Sony software or a much smaller base of Clie friendly shareware.

I don't see PPCs as having any of these issues and if I wasn't a long standing disliker of MS and Windows then I'd probably have switched over already.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

RE: Understandable but disturbing
Winter_ @ 2/14/2004 5:08:07 PM #


I realize English is your second language so I'll be gentle.

Oh, I was so worried. Thanks (hey, point out what I should correct! :D). Now, can we go back to the subject?

PSION is essentially as dead as Apple's Newton. Interesting hardware, stable, decent apps, but still killed by inept marketing. Palm remains the dominant PDA platfom in 2004 - despite PPC's recent gains (which have been heavily subsidized, by the way). Try to understand that what you and your friends buy means nothing in terms of where the market is overall. If you and everyone you know exclusively used REXs, would tht mean REX was taking over from Palm?

Of course, what I see can be different to the real statistics. So what? I was only giving some LOCAL example of PDA/desktop OS relationship.
(However, I find interesting that in some other post you use your experience as a direct source of statistics. Wasn't it you?)

Sony's hardware IS about to top the PPC hardware. Palm's designs are already more creative than most PPC vendors, but Palm has been let down by their second rate Chinese manufacturing.

You say "IS about". I say "is ABOUT". Present facts, please.
And I think we all know that "more creative designs" won't grant a (bright) future to anyone. For an example, look at Apple vs. Dell or Microsoft. :P

Do you think Linux on a PPC is a good thing? I don't. Just like I wouldn't want a Palm running Windows XP. PDAs aren't desktops or laptops. They need an interface that works for what they are designed to do.

I'm glad that you have your opinion. May I have mine, please?
I'll LOVE being able to use gcc, python and javac in a handheld. Linux is PERFECT for that.

Your claimed "loyalty" is unbelievable. Really.

I'm sorry, I can't see when I claimed any loyalty. Can you point it out, please?
Perhaps you are referring to the "deserve some support" bit. That's not loyalty; that's paying back to someone who deseves it (or, conversely, not paying to someone not deserving it). I see a difference, don't you?
However, what is unbelievable?

I can't decipher your penultimate paragraph. Perhaps you can translate it for us all.

I'll try.
Little more than one year ago, the Tungsten T was Palm's most expensive, top class offering.
Now, after just one year!, Tungsten T users are mostly left behind: no OS update, no WME (PAlm's official Java) support.
That looks like user abandonment. ("betrayal" perhaps is a tiny little bit too strong - but is close!).
Another example of user abandonment: the OS 5 bluetooth drivers issue.
And another one: Mac OS X support dropped.
So looks like Palm has a tendency to forget about its users.
Some people justifies that because of the "economic problems" of the company.
And that reminds me of your words about "almost extinct platform". If I follow your advice, looks like I should forget this almost extinct platform and go look for another, better working one.
Understood?

(As an aside: even with the WME, Java is problematic in the platform. To my needs, looks like only GCJ would PERHAPS be helpful - and that would mean destroying Java's advantages.)

I say PPC is a joke compared to Palm for a number of reasons and I think those looking at the issue OBJECTIVELY will agree.

It'd be helpful if you told me where I'm being subjective :P. Perhaps I will be able to see things in your way - err, I mean, "OBJECTIVELY".

- A few Palm advantages:

1) Software - almost anything you can think of doing on a PDA has been written for PalmOS. You won't just won't find the same variety of apps for PPC. And the volume of good freeware apps is impressive.

Oh, I forgot I can live exclusively out of freeware. (well, I CAN - with Linux!!)
Meanwhile, TomTom Navigator is still not available for Palm - and when it comes out, it will be only compatible with the T3. Nice. Tungsten T users, **** off.
A friend has been using the Navigator for the last 2 months with his relatively old PPC with no problem.

2) Integration with core Windows desktop apps - third party apps (increasingly being bundled with new Palms/CLIEs) link more completely with apps like Word, Excel, Money, etc. than PPC.

If that means less support for other options, then it's not good for me. (better Outlook support is one of the reasons to drop Mac OS X, isn' it?)

3) Hardware diversity. Sony, Palm, Tapwave, Palm's Treo, etc. give wider choices than PPC.

I find quite irritating Palm's hardware lock-in. No bluetooth drivers, remember?
On the other hand, look at HP's support for initiatives like familiar.handhelds.org.

However, you mention 3 makers of Palm hardware. I can tell you more makers of PPCs: Toshiba, HP, Acer, Dell. And those are bigger names - let's bet, who will still be there in 2 years time?
Apart from that, I'd like you to explain those "wider choices".

4) Interface - simpler, faster and more intuitive.

But locked in.
And, "faster" - that's arguable.

5) Stability.

I thought one of the problems of the current Palm OS was the stability...

6) Developer community.

You mean there is no developer community for the PocketPC?
(or for Linux? :) )
And let's remember, no serious Java...

Palm platform's disadvantages:

The best PDAs (CLIEs) use Memory Stick and CompactFlash is not available on any new Palms.

Limited expansion (nonexistent SDIO).

Limited connectivity (802.11b, Bluetooth)

Working against Microsoft.

--->Hey... if you want a PDA that "works with Microsoft", why not get Microsoft's PocketPC?
I wanted a PDA that worked with me and whatever I throw at it... not "with Microsoft". :P

Loss of momentum.

"Ambitious" pricing of PalmOS smartphones. Symbian will eat Palm alive unless the prices are cut.

Let me add some:

strange product matrix (I want a PDA, not a camera)

Lack of upgrade paths (buy built-in Bluetooth or forget about it)

Generally underpowered offerings

Handicapped, limiting OS

Closed hardware -> forced OS.

Unreliable company politics

.......

(the fact that PowerPC have some of those disadvantages isn't an excuse to fail in the same ways :P)



Winter - we have some nice parting gifts for you...
;-) @ 2/14/2004 6:19:54 PM #
Nice to see you're trying, but get help if you're hoping to debate here.

Of course, what I see can be different to the real statistics. So what? I was only giving some LOCAL example of PDA/desktop OS relationship.
(However, I find interesting that in some other post you use your experience as a direct source of statistics. Wasn't it you?)

Please feel free to point out where I did that kind of "creative" extrapolation.

You say "IS about". I say "is ABOUT". Present facts, please.
And I think we all know that "more creative designs" won't grant a (bright) future to anyone. For an example, look at Apple vs. Dell or Microsoft. :P

Be patient. The TH-55 with Bluetooth is already close to perfect. Sony's next PDA is perfect. Expensive, but perfect.

I'm glad that you have your opinion. May I have mine, please?
I'll LOVE being able to use gcc, python and javac in a handheld. Linux is PERFECT for that.

You can hold whatever opinion you want. Just be aware that almost no one feels the same way you do. Palm got the PDA interface right from Day One. Even today it's amazing to see how well the Palm OS works. And the Treo 600 PhoneOS is even slicker.

I'm sorry, I can't see when I claimed any loyalty. Can you point it out, please?
Perhaps you are referring to the "deserve some support" bit. That's not loyalty; that's paying back to someone who deseves it (or, conversely, not paying to someone not deserving it). I see a difference, don't you?
However, what is unbelievable?

Read what you said and decide for yourself:

"My problems with that were that I didn't want to be counted up as a PPC buyer (M$ makes me sick); I also wanted to pay back to Palm for (kind of) supporting Macs; and I preferred the easier way that Palm oferred. Now second and third arguments no longer are an issue. In fact HP is deserving some support for helping freedom in their platform."

I believe in buying the best hardware/software solution, period. No matter what OS or manufacturer. Try it sometime. Maybe you'll stop taking the decisions companies make so personally.

I'll try.
Little more than one year ago, the Tungsten T was Palm's most expensive, top class offering.
Now, after just one year!, Tungsten T users are mostly left behind: no OS update, no WME (PAlm's official Java) support.
That looks like user abandonment. ("betrayal" perhaps is a tiny little bit too strong - but is close!).
Another example of user abandonment: the OS 5 bluetooth drivers issue.
And another one: Mac OS X support dropped.
So looks like Palm has a tendency to forget about its users.
Some people justifies that because of the "economic problems" of the company.
And that reminds me of your words about "almost extinct platform". If I follow your advice, looks like I should forget this almost extinct platform and go look for another, better working one.
Understood?

It's called "moving on". Palm has actually been superb in their support of users with older hardware and software. I have a USR Pilot 5000 and a (mint) Palm Pilot Professional that can run most of the apps on the market in 2004. To expect Palm to contine supporting every conceivable configuration indefinitely is ridiculous. Just ask WinCE/PPC owners about what it feel like to see things break with a new OS edition. What's even more amusing is how few people will actually be affected by Palm's decision.

(As an aside: even with the WME, Java is problematic in the platform. To my needs, looks like only GCJ would PERHAPS be helpful - and that would mean destroying Java's advantages.)

Two years later, JAVA is as useless as ever. JAVA is the answer to a question no one is asking. The only people that care about JAVA on Palm are JAVA developers.

It'd be helpful if you told me where I'm being subjective :P. Perhaps I will be able to see things in your way - err, I mean, "OBJECTIVELY".

Oh, I forgot I can live exclusively out of freeware. (well, I CAN - with Linux!!)
Meanwhile, TomTom Navigator is still not available for Palm - and when it comes out, it will be only compatible with the T3. Nice. Tungsten T users, **** off.
A friend has been using the Navigator for the last 2 months with his relatively old PPC with no problem.

PalmOS DESTROYS Linux on a PDA. Sorry. And regarding your precious TomTom Navigator, why bother with a kludge when the Garmin iQue is available for $446.22, FedExed to your door?

http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

http://www.gpsdiscount.com/products/index.html?p=766

If that means less support for other options, then it's not good for me. (better Outlook support is one of the reasons to drop Mac OS X, isn' it?)

The fact that PalmOS supports Windows apps better than Microsoft's own PPC doesn't mean it ignores other configurations. Just don't expect everything to be provided to you for free if you insist on using a fringe OS.

I find quite irritating Palm's hardware lock-in. No bluetooth drivers, remember?
On the other hand, look at HP's support for initiatives like familiar.handhelds.org.

However, you mention 3 makers of Palm hardware. I can tell you more makers of PPCs: Toshiba, HP, Acer, Dell. And those are bigger names - let's bet, who will still be there in 2 years time?
Apart from that, I'd like you to explain those "wider choices".

I'd expect the Bluetooth drivers to be available before summer, if my sources are correct. This will be a non-issue in a year, since all PDAs will be shipping with built-in Bluetooth. Bluetooth cards aren't much more than a novelty item because in order to use them , most people will have to sacrifice their (single) expansion slot. [Another reason why dual expansion should have been standard, but that's another story.]

Sony, Palm, Garmin, Palm Treo, AlphaSmart, Samsung - the variety of options offered by Palm's licencees makes the 3 versions of vanilla PPC offers look pretty lame by comparison. Have you ever used an iQue? a Treo 600? The new UX? You don't know what you're talking about if you think PPC gives wider choices than PalmOS.

But locked in.
And, "faster" - that's arguable.

PalmOS is flexible and faster. Sorry. Pick any PPC and compare how long it takes to do similar functions with a PPC vs. any of the newer Palms. Have a seat, Mac.

I thought one of the problems of the current Palm OS was the stability...

The only problems Palm is having is with the craptastic quality control of their Chinese manufacturer + the lack of testing write speeds with SD cards.

You mean there is no developer community for the PocketPC?
(or for Linux? :) )
And let's remember, no serious Java...

No one said PPC lacks a development community. But even PPC fanboys wouldn't claim Palm doesn't have a bigger, more productive amateur and professional development community. The facts that it's so easy to code for PalmOS and that PalmOS was first means that it's development community dwarfs PPC's. Sorry. And JAVA remains even more useless in PDAs than it is on desktops. JAVA sucks monkey balls.

--->Hey... if you want a PDA that "works with Microsoft", why not get Microsoft's PocketPC?
I wanted a PDA that worked with me and whatever I throw at it... not "with Microsoft". :P

The disadvantage I alluded to was being in competition with Microsoft. Microsoft traditionally has either bought out its competition, leveraged its desktop OS dominance to push its own products or undercut competitors to the point that the smaller companies collapse. (See Netscape, WordPerfect, Visio, Quicken, Eudora, etc. for examples.) PDAs have been no exception and Palm is losing market share daily. The marketing of PPC2004 will probably be the beginning of the end for Palm since the PDA market is dying and they probably won't be able to make a big enough dent in phones to survive independently.

Let me add some:

strange product matrix (I want a PDA, not a camera)

Tough. PDA makers are going to put in any gimmick they can come up with if they think it will help them sell hardware. Try even getting a CELLPHONE these days without a (useless) digital camera.

Lack of upgrade paths (buy built-in Bluetooth or forget about it)

Why would a HARDWARE manufacturer not want you to upgrade to their brand new PDAs? One of the reasons PDA sales have flatlined is there is little need to upgrade them, so people hang onto them for years. With minimal compromise, I could easily keep using my old Palm IIIxe for the next five years. And I'm a power user. Why would Joe Average EVER upgrade their T3? They won't. Palm would be dumb to make it even easier for people to hang onto old Palms even longer.

Generally underpowered offerings

They're as powerful as they need to be. How do you find the current Palms "underpowered"? Do you find the T2 and T3 slow? Get serious.

Handicapped, limiting OS

What can't you do with a Palm? Really.

Closed hardware -> forced OS.

Please translate WTF this means.

Unreliable company politics

You mean because they won't keep supporting a fringe OS indefinitely? How droll. Palm is finally making the decisions they should have done three years ago, but Nagel, Mace and Co. are trying to recover from the damage inflicted by the late Carl J. Yankowski and a couple others MonkeyBoyz in Santa Clara. Too bad Yankowski was probably the coup de grace for Palm. At least I'll be able to keep my new Sony for the next five years.

.......

(the fact that PowerPC have some of those disadvantages isn't an excuse to fail in the same ways :P)

Again, PPC in its current form is A PATHETIC JOKE. Use one for a month and you'll agree.

Have a seat , Winter. You've just been B-slapped again. Looks like Game, Set, Match. Thanks for playing.



It's just too big.

Winter - we have some nice parting gifts for you... -;-)
;-) @ 2/14/2004 8:30:12 PM #
Nice to see you're trying, but get help if you're hoping to debate here.

Of course, what I see can be different to the real statistics. So what? I was only giving some LOCAL example of PDA/desktop OS relationship.
(However, I find interesting that in some other post you use your experience as a direct source of statistics. Wasn't it you?)

Please feel free to point out where I did that kind of "creative" extrapolation.

You say "IS about". I say "is ABOUT". Present facts, please.
And I think we all know that "more creative designs" won't grant a (bright) future to anyone. For an example, look at Apple vs. Dell or Microsoft. :P

Be patient. The TH-55 with Bluetooth is already close to perfect. Sony's next PDA is perfect. Expensive, but perfect.

I'm glad that you have your opinion. May I have mine, please?
I'll LOVE being able to use gcc, python and javac in a handheld. Linux is PERFECT for that.

You can hold whatever opinion you want. Just be aware that almost no one feels the same way you do. Palm got the PDA interface right from Day One. Even today it's amazing to see how well the Palm OS works. And the Treo 600 PhoneOS is even slicker.

I'm sorry, I can't see when I claimed any loyalty. Can you point it out, please?
Perhaps you are referring to the "deserve some support" bit. That's not loyalty; that's paying back to someone who deseves it (or, conversely, not paying to someone not deserving it). I see a difference, don't you?
However, what is unbelievable?

Read what you said and decide for yourself:

"My problems with that were that I didn't want to be counted up as a PPC buyer (M$ makes me sick); I also wanted to pay back to Palm for (kind of) supporting Macs; and I preferred the easier way that Palm oferred. Now second and third arguments no longer are an issue. In fact HP is deserving some support for helping freedom in their platform."

I believe in buying the best hardware/software solution, period. No matter what OS or manufacturer. Try it sometime. Maybe you'll stop taking the decisions companies make so personally.

I'll try.
Little more than one year ago, the Tungsten T was Palm's most expensive, top class offering.
Now, after just one year!, Tungsten T users are mostly left behind: no OS update, no WME (PAlm's official Java) support.
That looks like user abandonment. ("betrayal" perhaps is a tiny little bit too strong - but is close!).
Another example of user abandonment: the OS 5 bluetooth drivers issue.
And another one: Mac OS X support dropped.
So looks like Palm has a tendency to forget about its users.
Some people justifies that because of the "economic problems" of the company.
And that reminds me of your words about "almost extinct platform". If I follow your advice, looks like I should forget this almost extinct platform and go look for another, better working one.
Understood?

It's called "moving on". Palm has actually been superb in their support of users with older hardware and software. I have a USR Pilot 5000 and a (mint) Palm Pilot Professional that can run most of the apps on the market in 2004. To expect Palm to contine supporting every conceivable configuration indefinitely is ridiculous. Just ask WinCE/PPC owners about what it feel like to see things break with a new OS edition. What's even more amusing is how few people will actually be affected by Palm's decision.

(As an aside: even with the WME, Java is problematic in the platform. To my needs, looks like only GCJ would PERHAPS be helpful - and that would mean destroying Java's advantages.)

Two years later, JAVA is as useless as ever. JAVA is the answer to a question no one is asking. The only people that care about JAVA on Palm are JAVA developers.

It'd be helpful if you told me where I'm being subjective :P. Perhaps I will be able to see things in your way - err, I mean, "OBJECTIVELY".

Oh, I forgot I can live exclusively out of freeware. (well, I CAN - with Linux!!)
Meanwhile, TomTom Navigator is still not available for Palm - and when it comes out, it will be only compatible with the T3. Nice. Tungsten T users, **** off.
A friend has been using the Navigator for the last 2 months with his relatively old PPC with no problem.

PalmOS DESTROYS Linux on a PDA. Sorry. And regarding your precious TomTom Navigator, why bother with a kludge when the Garmin iQue is available for $446.22, FedExed to your door?

http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

http://www.gpsdiscount.com/products/index.html?p=766

If that means less support for other options, then it's not good for me. (better Outlook support is one of the reasons to drop Mac OS X, isn' it?)

The fact that PalmOS supports Windows apps better than Microsoft's own PPC doesn't mean it ignores other configurations. Just don't expect everything to be provided to you for free if you insist on using a fringe OS.

I find quite irritating Palm's hardware lock-in. No bluetooth drivers, remember?
On the other hand, look at HP's support for initiatives like familiar.handhelds.org.

However, you mention 3 makers of Palm hardware. I can tell you more makers of PPCs: Toshiba, HP, Acer, Dell. And those are bigger names - let's bet, who will still be there in 2 years time?
Apart from that, I'd like you to explain those "wider choices".

I'd expect the Bluetooth drivers to be available before summer, if my sources are correct. This will be a non-issue in a year, since all PDAs will be shipping with built-in Bluetooth. Bluetooth cards aren't much more than a novelty item because in order to use them , most people will have to sacrifice their (single) expansion slot. [Another reason why dual expansion should have been standard, but that's another story.]

Sony, Palm, Garmin, Palm Treo, AlphaSmart, Samsung - the variety of options offered by Palm's licencees makes the 3 versions of vanilla PPC offers look pretty lame by comparison. Have you ever used an iQue? a Treo 600? The new UX? You don't know what you're talking about if you think PPC gives wider choices than PalmOS.

But locked in.
And, "faster" - that's arguable.

PalmOS is flexible and faster. Sorry. Pick any PPC and compare how long it takes to do similar functions with a PPC vs. any of the newer Palms. Have a seat, Mac.

I thought one of the problems of the current Palm OS was the stability...

The only problems Palm is having is with the craptastic quality control of their Chinese manufacturer + the lack of testing write speeds with SD cards.

You mean there is no developer community for the PocketPC?
(or for Linux? :) )
And let's remember, no serious Java...

No one said PPC lacks a development community. But even PPC fanboys wouldn't claim Palm doesn't have a bigger, more productive amateur and professional development community. The facts that it's so easy to code for PalmOS and that PalmOS was first means that it's development community dwarfs PPC's. Sorry. And JAVA remains even more useless in PDAs than it is on desktops. JAVA sucks monkey balls.

--->Hey... if you want a PDA that "works with Microsoft", why not get Microsoft's PocketPC?
I wanted a PDA that worked with me and whatever I throw at it... not "with Microsoft". :P

The disadvantage I alluded to was being in competition with Microsoft. Microsoft traditionally has either bought out its competition, leveraged its desktop OS dominance to push its own products or undercut competitors to the point that the smaller companies collapse. (See Netscape, WordPerfect, Visio, Quicken, Eudora, etc. for examples.) PDAs have been no exception and Palm is losing market share daily. The marketing of PPC2004 will probably be the beginning of the end for Palm since the PDA market is dying and they probably won't be able to make a big enough dent in phones to survive independently.

Let me add some:

strange product matrix (I want a PDA, not a camera)

Tough. PDA makers are going to put in any gimmick they can come up with if they think it will help them sell hardware. Try even getting a CELLPHONE these days without a (useless) digital camera.

Lack of upgrade paths (buy built-in Bluetooth or forget about it)

Why would a HARDWARE manufacturer not want you to upgrade to their brand new PDAs? One of the reasons PDA sales have flatlined is there is little need to upgrade them, so people hang onto them for years. With minimal compromise, I could easily keep using my old Palm IIIxe for the next five years. And I'm a power user. Why would Joe Average EVER upgrade their T3? They won't. Palm would be dumb to make it even easier for people to hang onto old Palms even longer.

Generally underpowered offerings

They're as powerful as they need to be. How do you find the current Palms "underpowered"? Do you find the T2 and T3 slow? Get serious.

Handicapped, limiting OS

What can't you do with a Palm? Really.

Closed hardware -> forced OS.

Please translate WTF this means.

Unreliable company politics

You mean because they won't keep supporting a fringe OS indefinitely? How droll. Palm is finally making the decisions they should have done three years ago, but Nagel, Mace and Co. are trying to recover from the damage inflicted by the late Carl J. Yankowski and a couple others MonkeyBoyz in Santa Clara. Too bad Yankowski was probably the coup de grace for Palm. At least I'll be able to keep my new Sony for the next five years.

.......

(the fact that PowerPC have some of those disadvantages isn't an excuse to fail in the same ways :P)

Again, PPC in its current form is A PATHETIC JOKE. Use one for a month and you'll agree.


It's just too big.

RE: Understandable but disturbing
Winter_ @ 2/15/2004 8:49:23 PM #
I'll try to obviate your (smart-ass) remarks and get to the subject. I don't have the time to play with you, sorry.

Be patient. The TH-55 with Bluetooth is already close to perfect. Sony's next PDA is perfect. Expensive, but perfect.

If it is expensive, it's not perfect. :P
However, we'll talk about future things in the future. I was talking about present facts, remember?

I believe in buying the best hardware/software solution, period. No matter what OS or manufacturer. Try it sometime. Maybe you'll stop taking the decisions companies make so personally.

Well, that's your position, which I find a little simplistic; but that's up to you.
My position is: I think you're "voting" with your money. I would rather NOT pay Micro$oft for anything. I hate their politics almost as much as their buggy products.
There are other companies making much more interesting things; and I prefer to think that I'm helping them, so future hardware and software will continue to be interesting :P.
Can you understand that?

Palm has actually been superb in their support of users with older hardware and software. I have a USR Pilot 5000 and a (mint) Palm Pilot Professional that can run most of the apps on the market in 2004. To expect Palm to contine supporting every conceivable configuration indefinitely is ridiculous.

I'm glad that your USR Pilot still works; congratulations!. Now, let's go back to the Tungsten T.
I'm not asking them to support "every conceivable configuration". I'm just asking for support for a 13 months old Tungsten T, which by then was the BEST thing you could buy from them.
If they don't support such a model, how can I be confident that any thing less "classy" will be supported next year??

Just ask WinCE/PPC owners about what it feel like to see things break with a new OS edition. What's even more amusing is how few people will actually be affected by Palm's decision.

That won't happen to Linux. And that's still another reason to like it.

Two years later, JAVA is as useless as ever. JAVA is the answer to a question no one is asking. The only people that care about JAVA on Palm are JAVA developers.

How many people do you know that develops / has developed for Palm OS?
Now, how many people do you know that develops / has developed for Java?Let me guess: about 100 times more than the previous number, isn't it?
And each one of them could be an indirect Palm developer - if there was any decent support for Java in the OS.
(I actually started writing about the advantages and opportunities, but it felt SO trivial... man, if you don't know already, there's not much I can do to help you :P. Try Googling for "java" XD ).

As an aside: what do you think of Palm announcing their new developer tools based on Eclipse, the Java based IDE? :)

PalmOS DESTROYS Linux on a PDA. Sorry.

If you say so...

And regarding your precious TomTom Navigator, why bother with a kludge when the Garmin iQue is available for $446.22, FedExed to your door?

http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

http://www.gpsdiscount.com/products/index.html?p=766

That was almost funny, man.
So, I have a 13 months old, expensive Tungsten T, that can't run the latest software arguably because the manufacturer won't upgrade it.
And the solution you offer is BUY ANOTHER PDA based on the SAME OS????
You must be sick.
Or paid by Palm :P.

The fact that PalmOS supports Windows apps better than Microsoft's own PPC doesn't mean it ignores other configurations. Just don't expect everything to be provided to you for free if you insist on using a fringe OS.

The news piece says that the changes in the DB format to get closer to Microsoft's products has been one of the causes for the OSX abandonment. Isn't that correct??

I'd expect the Bluetooth drivers to be available before summer, if my sources are correct.

The problem is, all sources have been VERY wrong during last year. Remember?
Now, you can expect whatever you fancy.

This will be a non-issue in a year, since all PDAs will be shipping with built-in Bluetooth.

Hey, where did you buy that crystal ball?
(Let's talk about future things when they are REAL, ok?)

Bluetooth cards aren't much more than a novelty item because in order to use them , most people will have to sacrifice their (single) expansion slot. [Another reason why dual expansion should have been standard, but that's another story.]

And that's another reason why more RAM should also be a standard.
However, if I have a Palm model with OS 5, a expansion slot, and a Palm branded Bluetooth card... CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY IN HE11 CAN'T I HAVE BLUETOOTH????
Furthermore, the stupidly limited Java offered by Palm seems to confirm that the PDA is not as powerful as PPCs, for example.

No one said PPC lacks a development community. But even PPC fanboys wouldn't claim Palm doesn't have a bigger, more productive amateur and professional development community. The facts that it's so easy to code for PalmOS and that PalmOS was first means that it's development community dwarfs PPC's. Sorry. And JAVA remains even more useless in PDAs than it is on desktops. JAVA sucks monkey balls.

Java and .Net / DotGnu developers can directly program for PocketPC. (...and for Linux).
But not for Palm.
So, how do you mean Palm developers outnumber PPC developers?

About Java's usefulness: as I said, the new developer tools by Palm will be based on (the excellent) Eclipse, made in Java.
So, looks like someone here is a bit clueless.

>strange product matrix (I want a PDA, not a camera)
Tough. PDA makers are going to put in any gimmick they can come up with if they think it will help them sell hardware. Try even getting a CELLPHONE these days without a (useless) digital camera.

So what? I don't care what cellphone makers do. Let's go back again to the subject: I said one of Palm's disadvantages is the strange product matrix.

Lack of upgrade paths (buy built-in Bluetooth or forget about it)
Why would a HARDWARE manufacturer not want you to upgrade to their brand new PDAs? One of the reasons PDA sales have flatlined is there is little need to upgrade them, so people hang onto them for years. With minimal compromise, I could easily keep using my old Palm IIIxe for the next five years. And I'm a power user. Why would Joe Average EVER upgrade their T3? They won't. Palm would be dumb to make it even easier for people to hang onto old Palms even longer.

I think you're contradicting yourself. Some lines before you said you expected the Bluetooth drivers "before summer". Now you say they have no interest on such a thing...
However, looks like other PDA manufacturers DO think that upgradability is good. And I think that too, so looks like that is another reason to go with them.

>Generally underpowered offerings
They're as powerful as they need to be. How do you find the current Palms "underpowered"?

Oh, for heaven's sake: you think they have enough RAM?????
Add that to the single expansion bay! THAT is a joke, man!!

Do you find the T2 and T3 slow? Get serious.
Do you find them fast???

>Handicapped, limiting OS
What can't you do with a Palm? Really.

Given enough effort, I can pretend there's no need for a file system, for example. (gasp!)
But that won't make developing exactly "easy".
(hey, perhaps YOU should explain why developing for Palm is sooooo easy, as you said!).

>Closed hardware -> forced OS.
Please translate WTF this means.

Given the needed hardware specs, people could write their own drivers for whatever (like Bluetooth cards - wink, wink) , or even use other OS if they felt that that way the hardware would serve them better.
It all boils down to the user being free to choose. With Palm, you are locked in.

>Unreliable company politics
You mean because they won't keep supporting a fringe OS indefinitely? How droll.

OSX abandonment is just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Please, read again the Tungsten T history. And the Bluetooth drivers subject.
You have a tendency to forget, don't you?

Again, PPC in its current form is A PATHETIC JOKE. Use one for a month and you'll agree.

You are repeating that so many times, that it must be true. :P


RE: Understandable but disturbing
abosco @ 2/15/2004 9:17:44 PM #
No, really - why don't you guys tell us how you really feel?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: Understandable but disturbing
mikecane @ 2/16/2004 1:45:52 AM #
Oh, Christ Almighty, please *don't*!

What a wasteof electrons!

Yes, Big Mistake

Glory Daze @ 2/12/2004 12:50:31 AM #
I am a Mac user. Longer than a Palm user. Have been looking at Mac laptops but figured I'd upgrade to the new Palm when one came out. Not gonna happen now. I'll just keep the old Tungsten T for my pocket and get a new laptop. Kinda tired of messin' with the small screen for work anyway. Thanks Palm ... for nothing.

Palm Developer who uses OS X

mongrot @ 2/12/2004 1:36:41 AM #
I must say I am very sad to hear this news. I have been writing software for the Palm since I first got my US Robotics Pilot. Metrowerks announced a while back they were not going to support the Mac development environment for the Palm OS. I was disturbed at the thought of having to buy a PC and use Windows to develop my software. I continued to use version 8 and waited to hear what Palm was going to do about it. Now PalmSource announces that they will no longer support syncing to a Mac in the new versions? Here is what I am thinking...

If I am being forced into Microsoft's environment, why try to jump back and forth... I never thought I would ever think this, but why on earth would I continue to develop for the Palm OS? The market share of Microsoft's PDAs is looking bigger all the time, I'd probably do just as well to develop software there.

How many other developers are there like me? Not only would I switch, but my entire family would, my customers would (they are already asking), and all of the people that ask me for advice on what they should get would be changing.

Doesn't sound good does it?

RE: Palm Developer who uses OS X
serpico @ 2/12/2004 3:08:29 AM #
I really find it hard to understand what a developer goes through at times like these. The platform you choose to do your work is not supported and now you need to purchase a PC, new software all over again to support your family. I can't believe Palm did this, but that's why we depend on developers like you to create third party solutions for OSX or Linux for that matter. Windows will always have more than enough apps (similar and some poor quality) but other platforms get quality. A small community provides what is important to each other.

This isn't the end of the world with Palm leaving the mac camp, but is the beginning of a rough road ahead for them. PocketPC's are gaining and smartphones too, and now Palm has created a smaller pie not supporting their mac customer base. Imagine if Apple created a dual platform PDA kinda like the iPod? It might be successfull if it is different enough than today's devices. The iPod mini is as small with a 4GB harddisk and you never know...

RE: Palm Developer who uses OS X
rsc1000 @ 2/12/2004 4:46:33 PM #
This is rough for Mac users - but you have to understand why Palm did this - it makes economic sense. I dont know anybody who does Palm development on a Mac but i know 6 people personally who do Palm dev on PCs. You're a minority - a sizable minority from what i understand but a minority non-the-less.

What i8 want to know is this: Why exactly do wish to now support PPC now that Palm is not providing an out-of-the-box sync solution for Macs? Whats the sense? I have to tell you - good luck doing PPC development on your Mac!

But theres more. Before you get too excited about the fact that you are stuck with a version of Codewarrior thats 1 version behind the PC side (BTW you can still do PRC-Tools / GCC development for Palms on Mac), consider this: Eclipse. Eclipse is the dev enviroment that IBM donated to the opersource community (they still maintain it). It has platform and language plugins and PalmSource just announced that this is the enviroment they will now officially support (they are providing a GCC based plugin. This is great because Palm has licensed IBMs implementation of J2ME (now included with purchase of Tungsten models - but getting more support from PalmSource itself in the future) - so you can do J23ME targeted at Palm AND other devices, as well as your Palm development ALL in a free development enviroment supported by many companies and opensource groups.

So, no more codewarrior BUT that's ok - this new tool will be free and is PalmSources new standard. Im not positive about this yet. But Eclipse is available for Mac (for any platform as it is Java based), and GCC prc-tools is available for Mac - so it really looks like Macs are back on even footing with PCs for Palm development. Can the same be said for PPC?

RE: Palm Developer who uses OS X
rsc1000 @ 2/12/2004 5:01:26 PM #
>>J23ME

Whoops! Thats 'J2ME' - i really should proof read before posting:)

Blessing in disguise

fridael @ 2/12/2004 4:05:02 AM #
Since the OEMs (PalmOne, Sony) are the ones who have to sell the devices, they're the ones who stand to lose most from not bundling any Mac sync software. I bet we'll see Missing Sync (or another solution) bundled with Cobalt devices.

Palm's OS X support has been mediocre at best, them dropping support might actually be a blessing in disguise. Mac represents a viable market, so other companies, more dedicated to Mac development, will step up to the plate.

Java?

Kiritan Flux @ 2/12/2004 4:46:38 AM #
Why don't they just develop a Palm Desktop and Hotsync based on Java? Compatibility problem solved!

And nowadays with Apple G4 and G5 and 3G Pentium processors, the "oh so slow" Java ain'T an issue anymore...that's my opinion.

-------------------------------
http://www.kiritanflux.de/palm
-------------------------------

RE: Java?
rory @ 2/12/2004 5:49:31 AM #
Sadly due to the cross platform nature of Java it doesn't really have any hooks into the hardware itself, it uses a virtual machine layer between the program and the OS to talk to the hardware. Because of this you will never see something as low level as a device driver written in it. The only way I can see that you could use it to sync with a Palm would be over TCP/IP.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Java?
fridael @ 2/12/2004 7:09:07 AM #
http://www.jsyncmanager.org/

Considering that OS X ships with a JRE, this might be a viable solution for Mac users. I haven't tried it out myself, though.

RE: Java?
madmaxmedia @ 2/12/2004 12:36:21 PM #
Are you sure about this? I own a Rio Karma (20 Gig HD music player), and there are Java apps for it for synchronizing music, and transferring data.

If that can be done, I would imagine you might be able to synchronize a PDA.

RE: Java?
rory @ 2/12/2004 2:11:28 PM #
I'm guessing your Rio mounts like a hard drive and that the Java app is basically just reading and writing files to it. Palms currently use a propriety protocol to transfer data over USB, they don't mount on your desktop/My Computer like say a USB keychain drive does. It would make life a LOT easier for developers if they did though!

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Java?
madmaxmedia @ 2/13/2004 1:42:34 PM #
Actually, it doesn't mount like a hard drive. I'm not very technically proficient, but it uses some sort of journaling file system that prevents this. That's why you need a special program to shuttle even regular files from the Karma.

Q & A's -- TT3, OS 5.2.1, Palm Desktop 4.1. Panther 10.3.2

palmstory @ 2/12/2004 4:14:43 AM #
Hope SOMEONE can answer some of these Q's. I just want to know that my current PD 4.1. data will have a future?! Currently on TT3, OS 5.2.1, Palm Desktop 4.1. Panther 10.3.2 -- is it a DEAD END?

I'd hate having to take my data to Entourage, because it has no Phone Dialer, plus I am not crazy about it, but who knows, maybe in the next version there will be a Dialer? So I'd need to find another PIM(Now Contact? or what?! got ideas?!) to take my Palm Desktop 4.1 data to.

At this point, I am on Panther 10.3.2 and Palm Desktop 4.1 is working fine with my Tungsten T3. EVENTUALLY it will break. I am just trying to look ahead... Any ideas?

OR, will I be safe for as long as I stay with Palm OS 5.2.1, T3 and Panther? Then, we'll see if Palm OS 5.2.1, T3 work with next Mac OS that comes after Panther?

WHERE are they to go when their PDA's die? Are we to buy backup Palm Tungstens now, because the future Palms will not be Mac compatible?

I have a Powerbook... so, am I supposed to buy another, PC, laptop and sync to that?

Yes, I know that there is iSync, Address Book, iCall, but... in Palm Desktop a Memo can be attached to a Contact, and same for Appointment, and To Do. HOW IN THE WORLD, unless I'd go with Entourage, or another PIM, will I be able to have a similar PRACTICAL functionality? Even if there was iMemos, it would STILL be a separate application, thus Attaching Memo to Address, or Event, or To Do etc. would be hard, if not IMPOSSIBLE? SO... it's back to Entourage, or another PIM, but why other PIM's stay in business if there is no more Mac Support? UNLESS ... I am misunderstanding the WHOLE concept --

Is Palm Source closing the "door" to it's Cobalt OS for Mac Developers, or

Is that "door" still there for Mac Developers like Missing Sync to step in and re-create HotSync basically?

For now, I am VERY upset, and seeing the ugly comments on this list doesn't help. I simply don't understand why those folks enjoy seeing their FELLOW PALM ENTHUSIASTS's pain? In my case, I also got BADLY burnt on Palm stock!!! -- extra dagger in my heart!!! So... do I sell now?!!!

Having initiated a Topic at
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20421
I got yelled at and insulted. Now, with vindication like this, who needs enemies!

I pray that somewhere, somehow, a Forum evolves where Mac-Palm folks can share their information regarding this issue. A lot of folks are using Palm Desktop with their Palms and Macs. Ideally, that Forum will be free of folks who derive pleasure from pain of others! With Osama and the rest of Evil in the world, WHY add more evil to the lives of fellow Palm Users?!

Thanks in advance for your answers!!!

RE: Q & A's -- TT3, OS 5.2.1, Palm Desktop 4.1. Panther 10.3.2
wisdcom @ 2/12/2004 9:43:45 AM #
I hear you. If I don't find such a place, I'll start one.


WHY NOT SELL OFF PD4.1?!

palmstory @ 2/12/2004 5:44:51 AM #
WHY DOESN'T PALMSOURCE SIMPLY SELL OFF PALM DESKTOP FOR MAC? This way the door is open to Mac market?

They bought if from Claris Organizer?(Apple!) Why not sell it back to them, or someone else?!

RE: WHY NOT SELL OFF PD4.1?!
Foo Fighter @ 2/12/2004 11:49:57 AM #
Palm Desktop is garbage. We need a better replacement. Most Palm users sync with Outlook anyway. What I would really love to see is a new PIM similar in appearance to Lotus Organizer, designed for todays computing environment. Anyone else here remember Organizer? Ah...the good old days. :-)

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, Digital Media Thoughts
Editor, Pocketfactory.com
RE: WHY NOT SELL OFF PD4.1?!
kpr @ 2/16/2004 6:55:23 PM #
I'd like to see, at a minimum, a Palm OS simulator/emulator for the Mac so I can see on my Mac's screen exactly what I see on my Palm's screen.

A Palm OS emulator existed for Palm OS 4, but NOT Palm OS 5 or 6.

TELL PALM HOW YOU FEEL!!!

palmstory @ 2/12/2004 5:49:41 AM #
http://palmsource.com/press/

Headquarters
PalmSource, Inc.
1240 Crossman Avenue
Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1116
Phone: +1.408.400.3000
Fax: +1.408.400.1500
Email: info@PalmSource.com
Investor Relations
Kip E. Meintzer
Director, Investor Relations
1240 Crossman Avenue
Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1116
Phone: +1.408.400.1909
Fax: +1.408.400.1580
Email: Kip.Meintzer@PalmSource.com


I WONDER what would happen, if there is a HUGE backlash from Mac-Palm folks?!!!

Poor decision

Nursedad @ 2/12/2004 8:16:43 AM #
Well...I guess I've bought my last Palm.

Palm MAY HAVE MAC SYNC... why you are all confused!!!

SaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 9:04:07 AM #
The problem with PalmSource vs. Palm is how you all confuse them! PalmSource makes the OS, and they have dropped Mac support. HOWEVER Palm, a totally different company, makes handhelds and can choose to bundle Mac sync software if they so choose. In fact Palm in the Tungsten T3 and E has included substantal OS revisions that PalmSource DID NOT supply.

It is VERY possible that Palm will include Mac sync software, although not software produced by PalmSource. In fact I think it is likely.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

RE: Palm MAY HAVE MAC SYNC... why you are all confused!!!
alldativ @ 2/12/2004 10:04:30 AM #
Saab Captain has a point, I immediately sent an email to palm and received this reply.
Good Morning Mr. xxxxxxxxx,
Thank you for contacting palmOne.
I forwarded your questions to my supervisor for his reply. His response
follows.
> PalmOne is and will still support the Macintosh platform. The customer is responding to something that they must have seen from PalmSource.
> palmOne will still provide Mac Sync software.
You must keep in mind that Palm Source and palmOne have split into
seperate companies. What applies for Palm Source will not apply to
palmOne.
I hope this will put you at ease as it did I. I am also working in an
entirely Mac House.

RE: Palm MAY HAVE MAC SYNC... why you are all confused!!!
rory @ 2/12/2004 10:13:38 AM #
That does sound like good news, it would be nice to see a real official statement from PalmOne though.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Palm MAY HAVE MAC SYNC... why you are all confused!!!
mikecane @ 2/12/2004 11:39:31 AM #
I was just wondering if Palm Desktop itself is doomed to the scrap heap. Perhaps this is why Sony put all that effort into what is essentailly a PDT replacement: CLIE Organizer.

Not so bad news, just badily worded...

RiddlerG4 @ 2/12/2004 10:36:53 AM #
The most important fact Palm Source failed to mention is that Mark Space are taking up the task of Mac->PalmOS Syncing.

Not only that but they are already in negotiations with the hardware makers (read palmOne) to bundle they're Mac Syncing software with there products.

Mark Space have made some very good Syncing software lately, this may end up being a GOOD THING!

I have not heard yet, but I'd be willing to bet, that they will be providing backwards compatibility with the original Conduit format.

So we Mac users need not feel abondoned, it makes sense to off load Mac Syncing to a company that specialises in making such software.


RE: Not so bad news, just badily worded...
orca @ 2/12/2004 11:19:32 AM #
I emailed Mark/Space asking about synchronization. They are going to support binary backward compatibility. This means, unfortunately, the the built-in developer tools that have shipped with MacOS X for the past three years will not be available for Palm Conduit Development. Mark/Space does plan to add support for these free tools eventually, but their first priority is compatibility with existing conduits. The requirement to buy a Mac plus CodeWarrior hasn't helped the MacOS X conduit development scene. Supporting the built-in tools would open a huge door for programmers using MacOS X. If you've never used Cocoa, you would be amazed at just how easy MacOS X development really is. Of course, it requires that someone knows about the object oriented programming concepts that computer science teaches.

Hopefully there will be better MacOS X applications for synchronization. iCal just doesn't cut it for anyone who seriously uses categories and to-dos to plan out what they're going to do in the week ahead. There's an ugly shareware application that reads memos, but it's an ugly hack job that someone expects users to pay for. On that front, MacOS X users should encourage Apple to improve iSync. If iSync were better, I wouldn't be so annoyed at the loss of Palm Desktop.

Much Ado about Nothing

Foo Fighter @ 2/12/2004 11:01:05 AM #
While this move by PalmSource is rather tragic, it is purely a business decision and nothing more. Everyone likes to play politics, but it comes down to money and resources, which often fall hand in had, if you'll pardon the pun. Paying developers to write software costs a great deal of money. PS is simply recognizing that the Macintosh market is too small to support and offers little ROI (return on investment). And I hate to bring up the market share issue, but since nearly 97% of the computing work revolves around Windows, it makes little sense to support Macintosh, a trend that will continue over time. Especially since that market isn't growing. You guys are forgetting PalmSource is not a large company, they are quite small. From a business standpoint they are making the right decision by allowing third parties to handle this task.

And it's not like we Mac users won't have the ability to sync Palms with Apple products, since third party developers like MarkSpace will quickly fill the gap. The biggest blow will come from not having access to Palm Desktop conduit anymore. This will cripple the Palm sync conduit feature in iSync, unless Apple can provide some way around that. As for the PIM itself, well frankly iCal and Address Book suck, IMO. I haven't touched those apps since they first came out. For myself, I strongly prefer Microsoft Entrourage for its robust features and PIM integration. Apple still doesn't understand how to make a good PIM. If third party developers could offer syncing with Entrourage (including email support), that would beat Palm Desktop right out of the box.

This is not the end of the world. Life will go on....and so will syncing.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, Digital Media Thoughts
Editor, Pocketfactory.com

A step toward the iNewton

Klanglor @ 2/12/2004 11:04:51 AM #
Well as you all know new product comme out when a gap between the demand and the supply.

I just can't way to see a iNewton with onboard 40G of HD + standard PDA guizmo (ie: bluetooth, WiFi etc.) and sync with iSync. The foundation is ready, maybe just a little 6 Month of top secret r&d for a invoative letter recognition and the thing is set.



Palm OS and Flexibility

AJG @ 2/12/2004 11:11:54 AM #
Well, I was a Windows user for many years. I went to Mac for many reasons. Easier to use, powerful systems, amazing operating systems, outstanding integrate. I went with Palm OS because it would Sync with my Mac... among other reasons. Palmsource has made a big mistake. They have alienated an entire market. Many people don't use Outlook nor do they want to... I certainly can't! More importantly, Palm OS always was known for FLEXIBILITY and COMPATIBILITY with all kinds of software and hardware. They have thrown away their very best attributes. While I'm very happy with my TT2, I'm going to start looking long and hard for my next option for a PDA. It is a real shame that people don't understand Macintosh systems... maybe someday.

PalmSource, please change you mind. MarkSpace has my vote... but maybe Pocket PC will be a better choice now.

-AJ

data on desktop OS marketshare of Palm users?

socram @ 2/12/2004 1:22:53 PM #
Does anyone have any verifiable data on the win/mac marketshare of PalmOS users?

RE: data on desktop OS marketshare of Palm users?
rory @ 2/13/2004 10:01:58 PM #
It would be nice to see PIC do a poll :)

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: data on desktop OS marketshare of Palm users?
mikecane @ 2/14/2004 12:36:38 AM #
As far as PIC readers are concerned, the OVERWHELMING majority access with Windows computers. I asked Ryan about this several times in the past.

If this figure is not reflectibe of reality -- then wait til you're at home and on your Mac to access PIC!

RE: data on desktop OS marketshare of Palm users?
rory @ 2/14/2004 7:22:53 AM #
The problem with using web logs is that, as you suggest, someone might check PIC from work where they use a PC but go home to using a Mac. Also it doesn't take into account the exposure of this site to the Mac audience anyway (which granted a poll here won't do either), it doesn't take into account how many people accessing the site actually own Palms etc.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

Easy Solution to the Debate

macshimidh @ 2/12/2004 1:29:48 PM #
It seems like many are convinced that there is a big percentage of the PalmOS market that chooses its PDA OS on the basis of MAC compatibility. There's certainly been enough outcry about it in response to thsi announcement. Here's my suggestion:
License PalmOS and do your own handheld with a bundled Mac dekstop. Better yet, do a really good dekstop in Java so people can run it on whatever they want. While you're at it, I'd love to see a full-function email client added in.

Any takers?

RE: Easy Solution to the Debate
rory @ 2/12/2004 2:18:14 PM #
If I had the knowledge and resources I'd love to produce my own PDAs, but while I might borrow from the Palm user interface I don't think I'd use Palm OS itself, don't get my wrong I love my Palm OS PDA, but as an OS it's just been so slow to grow up and I don't really see anything that compelling in OS 6 which isn't just a catch up to PPC level features. If anything a slightly trimmed down version of a full blown desktop OS with a small screen optimized UI would be the ideal solution. I would have loved to see PalmOne/PalmSource come out with a new version of BeOS (which was very lean and multimedia savvy anyway) for hard drive based PDAs.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Easy Solution to the Debate
cnegrad @ 2/12/2004 3:20:52 PM #
In anger and frustration I just called the PalmOne corporate offices. I explained top the Customer Service rep that online, mac users are fuming over this whole issue. I implored him to contact the marketing dept. and make an immediate press release stating PalmOne's future intentions regarding Mac support. This was the first he'd heard of all this, and was very receptive. Hopefully, this is all a non-issue , and PalmOne will do the right thing.

-cnegrad

Palm are just buggering themselves.

alcmaeon @ 2/12/2004 4:24:39 PM #
Let's face it folks, when you walk into the computer store and look at the Palms vs. the PocketPC devices, the PocketPC's frequently look better and appear to do more (at least when their OS isn't locked up). Now, Palm is getting it's market chewed up by PPC and will continue to lose market share. For the same price of the T3 I just bought, I could have had a PPC from HP (h4155) that did BlueTooth and WiFi, had a faster processor and was smaller and lighter than the T3 with no sliding mechanism to screw up on down the road.

I bought the T3 because it works seemlessly with MacOS. I am running Panther and I am not having any trouble syncing with it. Now, I had a Clie that I previously ran with MissingSync to sync to the Mac. It worked, but it was a kludge and was not reliable enough.

If I have to use a kludge to sync to the Mac, then I might was well get a PPC device with a 640x480 screen (Toshiba e800 series) which will remind me more of the Newton anyway, and then I can run Age of Empires on it when I have downtime.

As someone else pointed out, if we buy an HP or other Linux capable device, we can run that on the hand held and have a hell of a lot more usability. I would love to be able to walk around the offices and use a hand held to tweak settings on servers or do other network analyses, but I can't with the Palm. I would be a lot more convenient than the 17" PowerBook I usually carry.

Palm will lose market from this move, but, frankly, who cares. I have now decided to stay with the T3 for the next several years. If it breaks, I will buy another used one on ebay. Of course, Palm won't make anything off that purchase, but that is their problem.

Alcmaeon

RE: Palm are just buggering themselves.
JonathanChoo @ 2/12/2004 5:15:35 PM #
PalmSource is dropping support for Mac, but there are rumours that PalmOne will be bundling Missing Sync with Mac support in their future handhelds. I am sure PalmOne will want to retain their Mac user base.

I am not pleased

PashPaw @ 2/12/2004 5:59:57 PM #
One of the many and major reasons why I got a Palm was its support for the Mac OS, and the way my Windows machine is going, I'm going to need it still. Cobalt seemed so promising, but this shocked me. I'm not a true Mac zealot, but I like using the OS a little bit more than Windows. I'll try the Missing Sync if I ever do get a new Palm that runs Cobalt, but right now, I'll stick with my m515.

TELL THEM how you feel

palmstory @ 2/12/2004 6:00:00 PM #
Kip E. Meintzer
Director, Investor Relations
1240 Crossman Avenue
Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1116
Phone: +1.408.400.1909
Fax: +1.408.400.1580

and

PalmOne
(408) 326-9000

Let them feel as SICK as a lot of us do about this.

They SHOULD Sell Palm Desktop either back to Apple or someone else who will develop it further, so that the current users can stay with it, instead of being forced into Entourage.

But, either way, PalmOne should DECLARE their LOVE for Mac OS... Till that happens there will be a lot of confusion and AGONY!!!

For now let's see what they are talking about at

http://www.markspace.com/cobalt.html

This is from Mark/Space Support tech support

Hello -

It's understandable that the Mac community is concerned about the release of Cobalt. Sticking with your current configuration will be fine.

As you mentioned, you read that Mark/Space will be providing a synchronization solution so Cobalt users can continue to synchronize with a Mac.

For more information about Cobalt and to join our discussion list, follow this link.

http://www.markspace.com/cobalt.html

Regards,

Mark/Space Support

RE: TELL THEM how you feel
cnegrad @ 2/12/2004 7:05:42 PM #
Palmstory said, "They SHOULD Sell Palm Desktop either back to Apple or someone else who will develop it further, so that the current users can stay with it, instead of being forced into Entourage."

Can Entourage even be purchased separately from Office? If not, there's no way anyone's going to spend hundreds of dollars just for the privelidge of using Entourage...

-cnegrad

RE: TELL THEM how you feel
palmstory @ 2/12/2004 8:37:24 PM #
Entourage has been available for $99. Don't know if it's still the case. It's slow, not as stable as PD 4.1 under Panther. And NO PHONE DIALER in Entourage is a DEALBREAKER for me! Besides that, after 2 Free Phone Calls, you are the mercy of MSFT's Tech Support or PAY BIG for the Phone Support. I also don't trus MSFT much with my MOST sensitive Data!

Email and Addresses in ONE BIG FILE(800 MB) in my case is not very stable. Have to do the Rebuild Database OFTEN, lost emails!

Hey folks,

Is anyone using other PIMs aside from PD or Entourage?! Please share your experiences with us! THANKS!

PalmOne or PalmSource ... what's the different to Everyuser?

pigthug @ 2/12/2004 8:34:09 PM #
This is directed to Mike from Palm Source.

Mike, I consider myself a Mac user, but not a Mac zealot. I understnad that Palm Source probably agonized over its recent Mac decision.

However, I would point out that, to the general public, PalmOne and PalmSource "seem" to be the same company. Even to posters on within forum, there is confusion. If posters here are confused, how would Joe or Josephine Everyuser keep things straight at Fry's, CompUSA, or MicroCenter?

In honesty, I think I speak for Joe/Josephine Everyuser when Isay that if the geeks at CompUSA tell me that PalmSource is not going to supprt Macs in the next version of the Palm OS, then I'm not going to buy into anything Palm whichever company sells it. I won't make the distinction between PalmOne and PalmSource. Since it seems to me that the fates of PalmOne and PalmSource are inextricably linked, I can't envision a situion in which something that hurts PalmOne does not also hurt PalmSource.

I know that I can't dissuade PalmSource from decisions made for business reasons. But I have to be honest here ... I won't rely on third-party support for something which should come from the source ... PalmSource. Arguments have been made that PalmSource has but few developers ... Mark/Space likely has even fewer. Mark/Space support could vanish tomorrow and any investment I have in PalmOne or PalmSource products could also vanish. I have to be frank ... I wanted to buy a Tungsten C this year (or a newer version of same), but I'm going to look to other solutions that have prospects of being more Mac-friendly. I know that that may not seem a blow to PalmSource, but no Tungsten means no PalmSource products for me.

Let's say I have a friend who invites me to his parents' home. His mother says I'm welcome but his father says I'm not. I'm probably going to politely decline my friend's invitition ... it's not worth the risk. If PalmSource doesn't value me, but PalmOne does, well, I'm probably not going to take the risk of investing in anything Palm. I think this is the perspective most Mac users will also have. In the end, it may not hurt PalmSource ... but it may. It's something to think about.

For me, well, I'm going to vote with my dollars. :)


RE: PalmOne or PalmSource ... what's the different to Everyuser?
SaabCaptain @ 2/13/2004 3:03:41 PM #
PalmSource badly presented their plan, they should have hyped the positive Mark/Space Mac sync software much, much more. That said I think the soultion here is for PalmOne to immediatly step up to the plate and announce they will continue to include Mac sync software with all their coming handhelds.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

You guys are so clueless. ;)

Dr Opinion @ 2/12/2004 9:17:35 PM #
Apple brought this on themeselves. Duh!

For years, palm invested in support for the Mac, providing drivers and the entire palm desktop solution.

What did Apple do? Release iSync and iCal, effectively commoditizing the palm as "just another device in the list" for displaying calendar and other data. Other devices have shocking support for syncing, but palm put the investment in and made it work. Then Apple invests in supporting the other devices, working with the palms competitors to build drivers, etc, building up the synchronization capabilities of Palm's competitors while simply riding on the exising palm investment, and totally giving Palm the shaft.

Let Apple do a bit of work for a change. :)


"...I looked up "antediluvian", and they had a picture of a Pocket PC." ;)

RE: You guys are so clueless. ;)
pigthug @ 2/12/2004 9:47:12 PM #
Dr. Opinion ... you opnion, I feel, is just plain silly.

If PalmSource makes better products than Apple, the peopel wil favor them over iCal and iSync. If you need an example, just look at the exictement over the OmniWeb 5 beta vs. Safari. Another example is Entourage ... which competes with Mail.app and iCal.

To say that Apple killed PalmSource stuff is not giving PalmSoruce enough credit. If iCal and iSync are crappy, Mac users simply won't use them ... we may be passionate about Apple products, but few of us pefer AppleWorks to Office.

You're basically saying that software like PalmDesktop sucks (whether you realize it or not), which is something I don't think you "really" believe and which I don't think is true anyway.


wow... taking back my palm!

JustinHoMi @ 2/13/2004 8:50:42 AM #
The whole reason I purchased a Tungsten E is because it worked out of the box with Windows, Mac, and Linux (my main three platforms). I gave up superior handwriting recognition and a number of other advantages of the PocketPC just so I could use it.

If Palm is going to take a stance like that, I'm gonna sell my Tungsten E on eBay right now. I don't want to support a company that's going to make ridiculous moves like that.

I guess I'll have to wait until something like http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?id=750 comes to the US.

RE: wow... taking back my palm!
cnegrad @ 2/13/2004 11:09:53 AM #
Okay, someone please help me witrh this:

I'm using a Tungsten T3 on an Mac using OS 9.2.2. Does this mean that when PalmOne releases OS 6, I won't be able to use it with the OS9 compatable desktop (assuming that T3's can even use OS6)? Will Mark/Space's solution work in OS9 or only OS X?

Thanks!

-cnegrad

RE: wow... taking back my palm!
rory @ 2/13/2004 10:03:54 PM #
OS X has been out for 4 years now, given the major differences between the systems I'd be surprised if supporting Mac OS 9 was a high priority. By the time your T|3 is obsolete it will probably be time to move to OS X/buy a new Mac anyway :)

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

From "As the Apple Turns" website

tthiel @ 2/13/2004 9:54:03 AM #
Well, we were hoping that by waiting a couple of days, we could weave a vehement corporate denial into the plot, but, um, no. Apparently Palm (or PalmSource, or PalmOne, or whatever the heck part of the post-split company is working on the software these days) really and truly has officially decided to drop support for the Mac platform; as of Palm OS 6, codenamed "Cobalt," Palms will no longer be able to synchronize with Macs. Gadget freaks and info junkies throughout the Mac community are running around in a blind panic, beating themselves over the head with Tungstens and emitting low moans. (We can only hope that someone's got a camcorder, because that footage is going to be killer at the next holiday party.)


It's true, people; faithful viewer James Hromadka was first to wing us the BrightHand article that broke the news: at the PalmSource conference earlier this week, the company "made it clear that PalmSource isn't developing a Mac version of the Palm Desktop. As the way the PIM apps work has changed significantly, this means Mac users won't be able to HotSync without third-party software." Now, we could rage on and on about how PalmSource is in no position to be shutting subsets of its customer base out in the cold, but frankly, we can't see this move as anything other than raw economics at work; Palm has dropped the ball so badly so many times, it's a wispy shell of its former self. (Just ask our stock portfolio.) The two developers the company could afford to keep on staff have probably never seen a conveyance that wasn't pulled by oxen, let alone a Macintosh. Sad, sure, but what can you do?

RE: From
Altema @ 2/13/2004 12:37:03 PM #
Anyone stop to consider that they will include Mac sync software... just not their own?

MEDIA TO THE RESCUE!!! MORE SUCH ARTICLES PLEASE!!!

palmstory @ 2/13/2004 5:34:51 PM #
http://www.forbes.com/personaltech/2004/02/13/cx_ah_0213tentech.html?partner=yahoo&referrer=

wouldn't that be funny if Steve Jobs takes over Disney as part of Comcast merger, and then buy PalmSource, and PalmOne?

"Imagine...":)?!

Better yet, he'll get Sir Yoko to do the iTunes ads?

Happy Valentines everyone!!! Just thought we all need some comic relief?!

For now here are are some helpful links --

http://www.markspace.com/support/faq_thefuture.html

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6547

----------------
PalmSource Turns Its Back On The Mac
Arik Hesseldahl, 02.13.04, 10:00 AM ET

NEW YORK - The Palm operating system is getting more convoluted and difficult to understand by the day.

The company that was Palm is now two companies: PalmOne (nasdaq: PLMO - news - people ), which produces handheld personal digital assistant hardware, and PalmSource (nasdaq: PSRC - news - people ), which develops the Palm operating system (OS) software and licenses it to other PDA manufacturers ranging from in size from Sony (nyse: SNE - news - people ) to watchmaker Fossil (nasdaq: FOSL - news - people ) to Global Positioning System (GPS) manufacturer Garmin (nasdaq: GRMN - news - people ) and to gaming startup Tapwave.
 
Having digested the split of a company with a well-known name into two with thoroughly forgettable names and no identity to speak of as yet, the people at PalmSource have apparently decided that its next OS will not support Apple Computer's (nasdaq: AAPL - news - people ) Macintosh OS.

The next Palm OS is codenamed Cobalt, and PalmSource has started showing it at its developers conference in San Jose, Calif. Chief Products Officer Larry Slotnick delivered the death blow.

Mac users have every right to take this as a slap in the face. Generally known for fervent loyalty to their personal computer platform of choice, a Mac user is also very often a Palm user. Compatibility with the Mac has always been expected of Palm OS devices, since the original Palm Pilot in the late 1990s.

Existing Palm devices running Palm OS 4 and OS 5 will continue to work with the Mac using the current software. But with Cobalt, there simply won't be a version of the Palm Desktop software written for the Mac, period. Nor will PalmSource create a new version of its HotSync Manager, which is the software that handles the synchronization of calendar data, address books and so on, for the Mac.

At least a third-party company known as Mark/Space, based in Los Gatos, Calif., has said it will create software to keep Mac users in the Palm OS camp. It's the same company that, for example, has provided Mac compatibility for certain models of the Sony Clié handhelds, which have not been Mac friendly out of the box. Garmin's iQue handheld, which combines a Palm OS handheld with a powerful GPS receiver, is also not compatible with the Mac out of the box, but Mark/Space's software, dubbed The Missing Sync, has sought to fix that.

It shouldn't be this way at all. There is another company in the PDA business that essentially ignores Mac users and relies on third-party companies to make handhelds running its software compatible with the Mac. That company is Microsoft (nasdaq: MSFT - news - people ). Information Appliance Associates of Villa La Jolla, Calif., has created an excellent application called PocketMac that lets PDAs based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile (formerly known as the Pocket PC) synchronize their data with the Mac. Mark/Space makes a version of its Missing Sync that connects a Mac to a Windows Mobile device.

Exactly why, when PalmSource should be concerned about growing its market share in the face of an increasingly aggressive attack from Microsoft, it feels the need to cut itself off from the Macintosh market is unclear. Perhaps it's simple economics. Mac users may number in the millions, but during 2003 only three of every 100 computers sold came from Apple, and software developers, no matter the platform, don't come for free. But that doesn't mean Mac users have to take this decision quietly, if nothing else to make PalmSource think again.

David Nagel is a Mac user !!!

Zeno @ 2/13/2004 6:16:35 PM #
I can't believe it ! David Nagel, PalmSource's CEO, is a Mac user !!!

"No surprise, PalmSource's decision to no longer develop a Macintosh version of its desktop client is proving controversial. I found it somewhat surprising, as I know David Nagel, the company's CEO, is a Mac user."
http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_Impressions_of_Cobalt

but there's more: he's not only a "Mac user": it was Senior Vice President of Apple Computer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/Board/nagelbio.html

RE: David Nagel is a Mac user !!!
Foo Fighter @ 2/14/2004 9:30:38 AM #
Uh...you just NOW discovered Nagel was former Apple exec? We've known this for ages. Here is another shocking revelation....MANY PalmOne/PalmSource execs are former Apple veterans, including Mike Mace. Now pick yourself up off the floor and move on.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, Digital Media Thoughts
Editor, Pocketfactory.com

Missing Sync

palmstory @ 2/13/2004 10:05:57 PM #
This is my letter to MarkSpace, Missing Sync:

From you response
>
> No. It appears that what will happen is that as the Mac OS continues to
> progress, the likelihood of the current Palm Desktop and HotSync Manager
> working diminishes. That's where the Missing Sync for Palm OS will come in.
>
Either I misunderstand the role of Missing Sync for Palm OS, or are you saying that, in addition to being a replacement Hot Sync, Missing Sync for Palm OS will compensate, i.e. do better than HS in terms of taking to Mac OS's Higher than 10.3.2, thus prolonging the life of Palm Desktop 4.1. under future OS's which otherwise won't work with today's HS. So, in fact, PD 4.1. can run for a LONG TIME, provided there is a "bridge" connecting it to the Future OS's, and Missing Sync for Palm OS will be that BRIDGE?

What happens if when Mac OS is written in such way that the current location of PD 4.1's files is no longer compatible with the scheme of that new Mac OS,? Then, no matter how good a BRIDGE Missing Sync for Palm OS is, it won't be able to connect that newest Mac OS to PD 4.1, thus rendering it dead, RIGHT?

So... the LIFE of PD 4.1 is Apple's hands, right? If so, I hope that Apple will provide a way out for the current users of PD 4.1 to migrate to a choice of PIM's, Entourage or whatever else Apple might create as a replacement for PD 4.1. Am I think right?

If I was to entertain some conspiracy theories, Apple might cut PD 4.1 off in such way that folks are railroaded to use Entourage as a "bone" for continuing development of Office for Mac? That would keep Microsoft happy... And if iSync is part of such railroad, Missing Sync will be made obsolete, or am I thinking wrong?

I am glad that you guys have established Missing Link List <missing-sync-palmos-talk@lists.markspace.com> Hopefully MarkSpace is monitoring that List and contributes to it, thus separating truth from fiction:), rumors and CONFUSION.

I do like this Forum
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6547
but because each posting is anonymous, it's credibility might be questionable. When I saw this link today

http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_Impressions_of_Cobalt

I found it puzzling that "David Nagel, the company's CEO, is a Mac user." !

http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/Board/nagelbio.html

So, is David Nagel going to switch from syncing to Mac to syncing to PC, or does he know something we don't?

Or is this decision a temporary one, a publicity stunt, aimed to stir up Mac community, Apple etc? And later they will reverse it?

Yes, we've got quite a techno soap opera on our hands(pun intended)...

Missing Sync(corrected - sorry)
palmstory @ 2/13/2004 10:19:14 PM #
From your response
>
> No. It appears that what will happen is that as the Mac OS continues to
> progress, the likelihood of the current Palm Desktop and HotSync Manager
> working diminishes. That's where the Missing Sync for Palm OS will come in.
>
Either I misunderstand the role of Missing Sync for Palm OS, or are you saying that, in addition to being a replacement for Hot Sync, Missing Sync for Palm OS will compensate, i.e. do better than HS in terms of "taking" to Mac OS's Higher than 10.3.2, thus prolonging the life of Palm Desktop 4.1. under future OS's which otherwise won't work with today's HS. So, in fact, PD 4.1. can run for a LONG TIME, provided there is a "bridge" connecting it to the Future OS's, and Missing Sync for Palm OS will be that BRIDGE?

What happens if the next version of Mac OS is written in such way that the current location of PD 4.1's files is no longer compatible with the scheme of that new Mac OS?! Then, no matter how good a BRIDGE Missing Sync for Palm OS is, it won't be able to connect that newest Mac OS to PD 4.1, thus rendering PD 4.1 dead, RIGHT?

So... the LIFE of PD 4.1 is actually Apple's hands, right? If so, I hope that Apple will provide a way out for the current users of PD 4.1 to migrate to a choice of PIM's, Entourage or whatever else Apple might create as a replacement for PD 4.1. Am I think right?

If I was to entertain some conspiracy theories, Apple might cut PD 4.1 off in such way that folks are railroaded to use Entourage, as a "bone" for continuing development of Office for Mac? That would keep Microsoft happy... And if iSync is part of such railroad job, Missing Sync will be made obsolete, or am I thinking wrong?

I am glad that you guys have established Missing Link List <missing-sync-palmos-talk@lists.markspace.com> Hopefully MarkSpace is monitoring that List and contributes to it, thus separating truth from fiction:), rumors and CONFUSION.

I do like this Forum
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6547
but because each posting is anonymous, it's credibility might be questionable. When I saw this link today

http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_Impressions_of_Cobalt

I found it puzzling that "David Nagel, the company's CEO, is a Mac user." !

http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/Board/nagelbio.html

So, is David Nagel going to switch from syncing his PDA to Mac to syncing to PC, or does he know something we don't?!

Or is this decision a temporary one, a publicity stunt, aimed to stir up PDA sales among Mac community, and also muscle Apple etc? And later they will reverse it?

Yes, we've got quite a techno soap opera on our hands(pun intended)...

Thanks a lot again for your reply!!!

It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.

DonCarcharo @ 2/13/2004 10:55:23 PM #
I'm new to PIC but I'm a long time "Palm on Mac" user so I wanted to jump in on this discussion. That is, until I started reading it. Somewhere only a select few comments in it devolved into a Mac vs. PC slugfest of 'mine is bigger than yours'. Regardless, I'm going to add my $.02.

Those of you bickering are missing the point. It's not about what platform is better, it's about offering choice. Despite the fact that I teach an introduction to Macintosh course at a local college, I personally use both a Mac and a PC running XP and Linux on a regular basis. My preferred platform of choice is a Mac but I don't mind saying that because I've actually *used* many different operating systems before I arrived at this conclusion. Hearing such blind patriotism from one camp or another drives me insane. Try both and make an educated decision.

With that said I'm greatly effected by PalmSource's decision to cease Mac development. As a whole I think it's a very, very bad thing for both Palm as well as Apple. Despite a lot of distain for the Mac around here there's clear evidence that within certain niche markets Apple is on the move. They're getting a lot of press on their digital lifestyle solutions (iPod, iLife), the Scientific community is buzzing and heck, just casually reading Slashdot makes you realize that the Mac is in fact gaining ground within certain markets.

As such its awfully shortsighted to not only completely ignore this alternate, possibly growing, platform but also to alienate an EXISTING userbase. It's not like Palm is a new company ignoring the Mac, that would be perfectly fine by me, but this is a company who currently has Mac customers that they're effectively dropping. Seek 3rd party support is just a nice way of saying, "let someone else help you because we're not going to". (The company formally known as Palm) has dropped Mac support and kicked out an entire population of customers in the process.

As such I personally feel betrayed. Yes I could still purchase my yearly Palm handheld upgrade and sync it with my PC, no big loss there. But I won't. I'll probably now just focus my interest on convergence devices and beefed up cellphones. And I know at least a dozen other people who feel the same way. Sure, we may only be a select few customers (and lowly Mac users at that) but we still WERE customers and at this stage of the game, PalmSource/PalmOne need as many of those as possible.

It's awfully smart to ignore a bunch of Kool Aid swillers
;-) @ 2/14/2004 12:23:24 AM #
S T F U. So you would dump Palm out of spite because they're smart enough to stop spreading themselves thin? Very intelligent.

I'm never going to buy another Porsche because they went and changed the floor mats this year. I'm sure you can relate to my reasoning.

Mac users have the reputation for being a bunch of fanatical losers because people read posts like yours and assume all Mac users are like you. Like any OS, Mac has its advantages and disadvantages. But it shouldn't be a religion. It's a tool used to get things done. End of story. Mac worshipers are no different than the Moonies, Jonestown Kool Aid Kultists, Hare Krishnas, Koresh's Branch Davidians and the Tommy Cruise/Johnny Travolta Scientologists. And they're so defensive it's a joke.


It's just too big.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbas
mikecane @ 2/14/2004 12:45:53 AM #
>>>I'll probably now just focus my interest on convergence devices and beefed up cellphones.

And these will sync better with your Mac... exactly how?

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
DonCarcharo @ 2/14/2004 1:16:04 AM #
;-) you're a piece of work. What else can I say? If I had a few less brain cells I might debate you. However you seem to feed off of the attention (with a half dozen posts in a forum which doesn't even concern you), so we'll let you squirm for now. Try again later.

As for the legitimate comment regarding cell phones, Mac OS X supports BT enabled phones out of the box. As such I'm able to sync my Sony Bluetooth enabled phone with iSync which in turn syncs w/ Entourage and keeps all of my contacts, my schedule and to-do list in order.

The only downside right now is the fact that my phone makes for lousy e-mailing / web browsing device. The workaround for this is to link my iBook and my phone together using Bluetooth to get wireless access on the road. It works, it's just not exactly convenient. As such I'll stick with my T3 until it ceases to work. After which I'll focus more on alternative solutions to my needs.


As such I personally feel betrayed by Palm. BETRAYED!
;-) @ 2/14/2004 1:31:43 AM #
As such I personally feel betrayed. Yes I could still purchase my yearly Palm handheld upgrade and sync it with my PC, no big loss there. But I won't. I'll probably now just focus my interest on convergence devices and beefed up cellphones. And I know at least a dozen other people who feel the same way. Sure, we may only be a select few customers (and lowly Mac users at that) but we still WERE customers and at this stage of the game, PalmSource/PalmOne need as many of those as possible.


David Nagel: Why have you betrayed me! And why won't you answer my phone calls! I will make you pay! Mark my words - NO ONE BETRAYS ME.

Love,
Jimmy Jones




It's just too big.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
DonCarcharo @ 2/14/2004 2:02:23 AM #
You're a funny guy.

No, seriously you are.

Honest.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbas
Foo Fighter @ 2/14/2004 9:34:50 AM #
Tell you what. If you idiots spouting off at PalmSource are so incensed by this decision, why don't YOU pay PalmSource to hire full time Mac developers necessary to continue development? How's that sound? I am sure PS would have no problem with someone else footing the bill.

How many times must it be said...this was a FISCAL decision, not political. No one pulled the plug on Macintosh support out of hatred or anti-Mac zealotry. Need I remind you that PalmSource is a tiny startup? They are not a large company with unlimited resources.

Give it a rest already!

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, Digital Media Thoughts
Editor, Pocketfactory.com

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
DonCarcharo @ 2/14/2004 10:25:01 AM #
How many times must it be said...this was a FISCAL decision, not political. No one pulled the plug on Macintosh support out of hatred or anti-Mac zealotry.

I'm sure we're all aware it was a fiscal decision, I think our point is that it may not have been a WISE fiscal decision. I hardly think that Palm cut off Mac support to spite us, that's silly. I just think Palm underestimated not only its Mac userbase but the purchasing power of that userbase.

Now before someone comes down on me saying there are far more Windows users, I may be a dim-witted Mac user, but I am aware of that. And before smiley face jumps in and tells me to **** for even considering that Mac users make a difference at all, I'd like to point out the size of this thread. It's just too big to suggest that our impact is insignificant. We don't have a huge impact, for sure but we have to have some impact.

So to make it clear before someone slights me for using a Mac and having an opinion, my point was not that in my delusional-Mac using frenzy did a vision of Steve Jobs come to me in the night and reveal that Palm was canceling support in an effort to bring down the Holy Apple Empire. I realize it was a FISCAL decision and I'm sure they did a whole lot of research to warrant this. However Palm doesn't always make the best decisions now do they (ten-dollar stock price)? Heck, neither does Apple.

I think I speak for most Mac users when I say we're upset by the move and we don't think it was a wise one. That's it.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
DonCarcharo @ 2/14/2004 10:44:44 AM #
Now the dim-witted Mac user has gone and forgot to close his 'b' tag above. ;-)
Dim-witted Mac zealots unite!
;-) @ 2/14/2004 4:19:33 PM #
...I just think Palm underestimated not only its Mac userbase but the purchasing power of that userbase.

Intelligent Mac users will continue to Buy Palms - just as they've always done. Nothing much has changed - it will just take slightly more effort to sync. The Mac fanatics posting here have made a tempest in a teapot.

I may be a dim-witted Mac user, but I am aware of that.

Honesty is the best policy.™

And before smiley face jumps in and tells me to **** for even considering that Mac users make a difference at all, I'd like to point out the size of this thread. It's just too big to suggest that our impact is insignificant. We don't have a huge impact, for sure but we have to have some impact.

Five Mac fanatics could easily have generated all the posts supporting Mac here. Do you really think posting in a fanboy Palm site is representitive of the overall market? If you do you must really be a "a dim-witted Mac user".

So to make it clear before someone slights me for using a Mac and having an opinion, my point was not that in my delusional-Mac using frenzy did a vision of Steve Jobs come to me in the night and reveal that Palm was canceling support in an effort to bring down the Holy Apple Empire. I realize it was a FISCAL decision and I'm sure they did a whole lot of research to warrant this. However Palm doesn't always make the best decisions now do they (ten-dollar stock price)? Heck, neither does Apple.

Mac is on life support and was kept alive because it was in Microsoft's best interests for them to exist. Otherwise they would now be about as viable as Amiga (or Coleco's Adam - ;-) ).

I think I speak for most Mac users when I say we're upset by the move and we don't think it was a wise one. That's it.

No, you speak for yourself only. Don't try to drag intelligent Mac users (who are used to having limited options and are more pragmatic about finding solutions) down to your level.

I hope you understand why Mac fanatics get such little sympathy from mainstream users. If the zealots would just tone down the religious fervor a few notches, maybe they would get a bit more support.




It's just too big.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
DonCarcharo @ 2/14/2004 5:53:44 PM #
;-) If it's possible for you to have an intelligent debate without degrading someone in the process (a stretch, I know) can you please inform me exactly when or where within the bounds of this discussion I crossed into the territory of Mac fanatic?

I'm upset, of course since I use a Palm and will now have to pay extra money to get my future Palm purchases (should there be any) to work with my Mac (admittedly my primary computer). However by your logic I should either be happy doing this or I should switch to a real operating system such as Windows. Fair enough. The Mac has a 3% market share and therefore must be inferior. By extension, I use a Mac and you use Windows, therefore I must be inferior. I see the logic, I guess I'm just missing the motivation for labeling me as a Mac fanatic.

I mean nowhere do I align myself blindly to one platform or another. I have 2 Macs, 3 Windows PCs and one Linux box. I've also said that you should at least try all available options before making any judgments on anyone's platform of choice. Lastly, I even accept that Palm's decision was purely a fiscal one and was made with much care. I don't agree with it, I don't think it's good for either Apple or Palm but then again what do I know? (feel free to quote that last part in your response in a futile effort to mock me).

So why again are my opinions unreasonable? Is it just because they're not your opinions and as such, surely must be unreasonable? I mean I'm not above taking advice from an emoticon, I just need to understand the motivations behind 'fanatic' label. If you can, please do enlighten me. I'm curious.

Mac Fanaticism 101.
;-) @ 2/14/2004 8:48:18 PM #
With that said I'm greatly effected by PalmSource's decision to cease Mac development. As a whole I think it's a very, very bad thing for both Palm as well as Apple. Despite a lot of distain (sic) for the Mac around here there's clear evidence that within certain niche markets Apple is on the move. They're getting a lot of press on their digital lifestyle solutions (iPod, iLife), the Scientific community is buzzing and heck, just casually reading Slashdot makes you realize that the Mac is in fact gaining ground within certain markets.

As such its awfully shortsighted to not only completely ignore this alternate, possibly growing, platform but also to alienate an EXISTING userbase. It's not like Palm is a new company ignoring the Mac, that would be perfectly fine by me, but this is a company who currently has Mac customers that they're effectively dropping. Seek 3rd party support is just a nice way of saying, "let someone else help you because we're not going to". (The company formally known as Palm) has dropped Mac support and kicked out an entire population of customers in the process.

As such I personally feel betrayed. Yes I could still purchase my yearly Palm handheld upgrade and sync it with my PC, no big loss there. But I won't. I'll probably now just focus my interest on convergence devices and beefed up cellphones. And I know at least a dozen other people who feel the same way. Sure, we may only be a select few customers (and lowly Mac users at that) but we still WERE customers and at this stage of the game, PalmSource/PalmOne need as many of those as possible.


You said it, not me.

Mac Drama Queens are hysterical. No, really.



It's just too big.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
TooMuch @ 2/14/2004 10:46:48 PM #
;-) Tell us another bubble bath story. Please, please...oh pretty please. Tell us how you make the water bubble without any Mac soap.

RE: It's awefully shortsighted to ignore an existing userbase.
DonCarcharo @ 2/15/2004 12:55:16 AM #
Mac Drama Queens are hysterical. No, really.

Didn't think you could do it.

Lots of traffic....

Alric @ 2/14/2004 2:37:18 AM #
....for an irrelevant platform.

Maybe its not so irrelevant after all...

RE: Lots of traffic....
;-) @ 2/14/2004 8:55:46 PM #
Irrelevant? Who said Mac was irrelevant? Sounds like someone's taking this a little personally.

The "traffic" is not surprising considering how shrill Mac users can be. But in the big scheme of things, losing 100 Angry Mac Fanatics really won't affect Palm's bottom line. In the end, that's all that really matters. Welcome to the Real World.


It's just too big.

RE: Lots of traffic....
DonCarcharo @ 2/15/2004 1:08:55 AM #
The "traffic" is not surprising considering how shrill Mac users can be.

"you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll."

"Cut the BS, Junior."

"I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses"

"Raving Mac Zealots"

"The zealots need to get over it and stop whining."

"the 12 year old Mac Kiddiez"

"Actually, she smells like a third year med student."

"Mac WHINERS"

"Mac Cultists need to relax and take another sip of their Jonestown flavored Kool Aid"

"Mac users are a lot of tortured whiners that remind us of those Goth kiddies from high school"

"I love it when Steve Jobs scr3ws me! Wheeeeee!"

"VW Cabriolet owners are homosexuals."

"I realize English is your second language so I'll be gentle."

"S T F U"

"bunch of fanatical losers"

"Mac worshipers are no different than the Moonies, Jonestown Kool Aid Kultists, Hare Krishnas, Koresh's Branch Davidians and the Tommy Cruise/Johnny Travolta Scientologists."

"The Mac fanatics posting here have made a tempest in a teapot."

"Mac Drama Queens are hysterical."

"losing 100 Angry Mac Fanatics really won't affect Palm's bottom line"

Shrill, indeed.

RE: Lots of traffic....
Eutychus @ 2/15/2004 1:46:37 AM #
Yeah there are times I act a little like a zealot. There is something nice about liking the computer hardware and software you use. I know it is different from most of the PPC or Microsoft brand computer users. It seems only a few (usually gamers) really become zealous for their Microsoft brand computers. To those who are religiously ignorant, I am sure such zeal may appear cult like and frightening. Regardless, I will continue my zeal for those things of which I see as being esthetically or ethically superior.

Like the time I was at Best Buys and there was a Microsoft rep present to try to proselytize people who were looking at the Palm handhelds. While MS had to pay their mercenary I was glad to spend a few hours explaining the advantages of the Palm OS and the various Palms and Sonys. But zeal can flag. I think I would just quietly leave if that were to happen today. Some may be sick of such zeal for a computer, but I will miss it.

Opportunity Costs

borgiaX @ 2/14/2004 2:31:02 AM #
Its about bussiness, its about law and about time we all realized what competition means.
Microsoft has a monopoly on the desktop of the vast majority of computer users. Its in the court documents, its a fact.
Any devices that have to interact with the personal computer have to take into account this fact.
Microsoft has a monopoly.
If Palmsource wants to create software that will work with windows and at the same time compete with Microsoft with their Pocket PC products it has to realize its in the position of bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Microsoft has a monopoly.
People are not stupid all the time. They know microsoft has a monopoly through their desktop OS, they also have a monoply with their Office Product (Word/Excel/Powerpoint), Microsoft makes Pocket PC and designs pocket PC to synchronize with their two monopoly products.
Palm is currently the dominant OS in the PDA marketplace, its under significant challenge from the Microsoft Monopoly. I just saw the Dell x3 today and its way better than I thought it would be, but being a Mac user I felt Palm would be a better fit, Its still true today, but I am unsure about tomorrow.
Palm knows that many of its customers including myself, will upgrade from one model to another over a span of years. The annoucement that they will cease Mac Support in the OS means the chain of Upgrades may be broken, and maybe for good.
I will definetly be checking out Missing Sync and I think they realize what an opportunity they have here.
Trouble is, if I have to get a third party product to sync my PDA, why should I limit my consideration to PalmSource or PalmOne.
Perhaps Mark Space will make a Pocket PC sync and bring some additional competition to the marketplace.


Flagrans Veritatis Studio

What about 'Virtual PC'?

inalaop @ 2/14/2004 12:00:43 PM #
There is a program for the MAC called 'Virtual PC' that supposedly will allow MAC's to run MS Windows/XP programs. I'm not a MAC user (yet) but was recently considering getting a Powerbook. Does this mean that if I run Virtual PC on the MAC, it will work with the new Cobalt Palms in the Windows environment???

Anyone know the answer the this?...

RE: What about 'Virtual PC'?
DonCarcharo @ 2/14/2004 12:38:53 PM #
It should. I previously synced a PocketPC with my Mac via VirtualPC (prior to PocketMac being developed). It wasn't an easy process and it was prone to errors but it did work. The downside of this, of course, is that you'd have to use Outlook on VPC as your main calendar.

A better solution than this is to keep your old PC and network it to your Mac. You can then remote-control the PC via Microsoft's Remote Desktop connection. Visually this works the same way as VPC (you can actually toggle back and forth between Mac and Windows) but without the headaches.

Easy choice: Mac

balbers @ 2/14/2004 5:03:30 PM #
I became a big Palm fan about 5 years ago. I've gotten 6 different Palms over the years for myself, friends, and family. I also went back to using a Mac at home 3 years ago. Although I use Windows, Linux, and Macs daily, I find the Mac experience to be much more pleasant.

I realize I could pay extra for a 3rd party sync tool, but besides the expense I don't expect it to work well. The great thing about Mac + iPod + Palm + (etc.) is that they all work together so smoothly. If Palm won't fit in that equation, I'll switch to a smartphone that works well with the rest of my devices, and many do. I don't think a 3rd party tool will cut it.

Palm's been great, but staying with the Mac is much more compelling to me than staying with Palm, so Palm goes.

RE: Easy choice: Mac
benixau @ 2/16/2004 6:47:26 PM #
you've never used the missing sync have you?

RE: Easy choice: Mac
celticmagick @ 7/23/2004 8:54:29 PM #
I thought Palm's biggest mistake with their Cobalt release was their decision to no longer support hacks. That all changed when I found out they dropped Mac support. This of course does not come as a surprise, I mean, everyone else has become Microsoft sheep, why not Palm as well. Who cares if Apple wrote the first Palm Desktop right?

After using my i330 (my first Palm device - and a smartphone too!) I thought that I had invested in a company that was as close to Mac as you could get in mobile computing. Sure, everything was great at first but then the market started to change: Palm is sinking in the world of multi-media and major manufacturers of those wonderful, or so I thought, smartphones have jumped overboard to be rescued by the PPC platform. There for awhile I thought that I would never have a separate phone and PDA but all of that has changed now. I have come to the realization that Apple can't compete in the world of PDA's and Smartphones and Palm has since lost my support of future purchases (this is not only based on lack of Mac support - their newer OS are bogged down with too much crap trying to survive in a modern PDA world. They need to overhaul their OS if they want to survive). I have decided to use older Palm devices until another alternative comes to being, especially since I will not support Microsoft. Heck no! Been there done that. There is only so many rediculous and asinine crashes a person can take, not to mention data loss and poor GUI design/stability.

Until Apple develops a mobile OS that can be licensed to the major manufacturers of PDA's and smartphones or Palm builds a more modern OS, I will be stuck using my i330 and my newly acquired Palm IIIe SE (I like clear electronics!) with a soon RAM upgrade.

First Mac then mobile computing. :)

crash-free palms...
Winter_ @ 7/23/2004 9:38:16 PM #
I keep reading that PocketPCs crash more than Palms. REMEMBER THAT I'M NOT ADVOCATING, AND NEVER WILL, FOR ANYTHING MICROSOFT. But let me share the last anecdote with my T3.


From almost day one I installed a little program ("Crash") that automatically resets the T3 in case of a crash; when it detects the crash, a danger sign appears reading System Crash and after a 5 secs countdown the reset happens. That way there's no need to take the T3 out of its hard case and back in.

Well, lets get into the anecdote.

Yesterday my girlfriend grabbed my T3 and started fiddling with it. She has a Palm m105 so she knows the basics. After about 2 minutes, she looked at me puzzled and said: "huh? 'System Crash'?"
Tonight I got out with some friends. One of them has just bought a Clie. He grabbed my T3 and started fiddling with it. After about 2 minutes, he looked at me puzzled and said: "huh? 'System Crash'?"

You know, it's funny. C'mon, laugh.

(oh, and let me say that right now I consider all the programs installed on the T3 relatively "secure". No betas, no oldies, no hacks)

Hmm. Maybe the "coming" Mac pda rumors are true

TooMuch @ 2/14/2004 10:52:31 PM #
Maybe Mac really is working on a new pda afterall. I know the rumors have been announced here on PIC and Brighthand in the past.

After hearing the above and Palm's new comment...

Eutychus @ 2/15/2004 1:27:23 AM #
I have decided to wait until we see what exactly all this means. It is very confusing to me and I think only time is really going to tell what will be the case.

My Sony has been real handy to use and still works acceptably. I was going to upgrade soon but now I will hold off. I have a Sony-Ericson phone so I have address book and calendar in a much smaller form factor.

I have already dropped the Palm Desktop for calendar and address book, only using it to back up and to install new programs. Mark/Space was necessary to make my Sony work with the Mac. And they did a much better job integrating the Clie to the Mac than Palm did for their own handhelds. And I thought they did a much better job for the Mac than Palm did for the PC version that I tried to use before buying MissingSync. Perhaps this all will be a major step forward. But if it is not... there are a lot of phones that do what I need. I didn't want to wait but I will. I wasn't going to stop using a Palm OS handheld but I can; it is just not that big a deal.

statement update

dsm363 @ 2/15/2004 11:19:23 PM #
At the top of the article there is "update: PalmSource has issued a statement clarifying their position on the issue."

What exactly did they say? For some reason, I can't find the update in the article. Thanks.

Apple to Palm: Go die!

mikecane @ 2/16/2004 1:51:49 AM #
http://tinyurl.com/yuhn5

Latest rumor of an Apple PDA.

I hope this is true.

Maybe *this* is what would make PalmSource see the *need* for a filesystem!

(Actually, no, it wouldn't. Nagel and Slotnick will witness the bankruptcy auction of PalmSource's assets in 2005 and *still* be clueless about the need for a filesystem.)

RE: Apple to Palm: Drop Dead!
mikecane @ 2/16/2004 2:06:44 AM #
"Perhaps Palm got word of this device and decided to discontinue support for the Mac now rather than later, making it look as though it was Palm’s decision rather than being driven out of the Mac market with the apparent success of the upcoming product. For instance, that new Rio MP3 player announced at MacWorld last month hasn’t received any support from the public because of Apple’s iPod mini announcement. If Palm has seen the new Apple smart-PDA it probably decided that it would lose what’s left of the Mac market anyway. "

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

So basically Nagel and Slotnick got details of what Apple will offer and ran like hell.

I BELIEVE IT!

Nagel and Slotnick: *RESIGN!*

RE: Apple to Palm: Go die!
abosco @ 2/16/2004 2:18:51 AM #
Remember. The site you read that on was outside the bounds of PIC, portable electronics news, plausible and rational news, and even sanity. You entered a Mac site. Everything you read there MUST ABSOLUTELY be taken with a pound and a half of salt. Lots of Mac users are good people. But the editors... *shudder*... don't jump to conclusions every time one of them gets offended another company dropped their target of worship like a bad habit.

I can believe PalmSource got too wrapped up in the huge UI makeover and intricate file system that they were too busy to support Mac. Oh wait...

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

RE: Apple to Palm: Go die!
rory @ 2/16/2004 7:53:23 AM #
I wouldn't give it much credibility, I mean why on Earth would Apple use Linux on a PDA, they could just as easily port a mini version of OS X over to ARM. Why reinvent the wheel after all? To use Linux would be like Microsoft licensing Palm OS for the PPCs, it's just not gonna happen :]

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

this can only mean one thing...

arielb @ 2/16/2004 8:03:21 PM #
BeOS is coming back ya hear???? screw windows, linux and mac! We want Palm to bring back those cute people icons and yellow tabs!

It's about Industry Standards

hiflitetm @ 2/16/2004 9:49:47 PM #
Its all about Industry Standards while Apple however was initialy never about standards anyhow.
Outlook, and Windows rule the office world, and thats where palmsource fits right in.
For sure Apple is trying to fill in the gap: iSync looks promissing with its bluetooth support. It leverages on the standards set by bluetooth for syncing contacts. Also with standards as sync-ML, I think we should get descent sync capabilities fitting all the promissing outlook-fields right into Addressbook and iCal.
Only thing is that I am not sure what is meant by Asosciative Member. Palmsource is Asociative Member for the organization sponsering SyncML (http://www.openmobilealliance.org/syncml/)

No Mac Support

rstilley @ 2/19/2004 10:16:32 PM #
The one thing I don't understand after reading six pages of comments is this: If Mac users are insignificant because of our low market share and the dropping of Mac support isn't a big deal, then why are all the other non-Mac users concerned because we're upset? Why expend your energy on criticizing us? Why do you care?

I would think we're not worth your time.

I can tell you if you had some beef about Microsoft and wanted to sound off about it, I surely wouldn't care.

I do have one comment about include about Apple hardware: at least Apple is trying to bleed us to death with their server hardware. When you buy an XServe, you get the server software included with the price of the hardware, UNLIMITED CLIENT. You don't have to pony up big bucks if you want to add 20 additional users, or whatever. Unlimited Client. Period.

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