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Comments on: Palm Treo 700w Review Highlights

Reviews are starting to pour in on the new Windows Mobile Treo 700w. Most long time Palm OS users are not giving the model high marks for ease of use and are recomending that most stick with the Treo 650. Read on for some of the highlights from David Pogue of the NY Times, Walt Mossberg of the WSJ and others. More...
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Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room

cervezas @ 1/5/2006 9:19:27 AM # Q
Walt Mossberg's review of the 700w was certainly less than glowing and he recommends sticking with the 650 until the next Palm OS Treos come along:

Despite some nice new features, the Windows Mobile software is still inferior to the Palm software for one-handed use on the go. Its crucial email and phone functions are also weaker. And there's a serious bug in its email software that affects individuals, though not corporate users. So the Treo 700w is neither as easy to use nor as powerful as the Treo 650. In addition, the screen on the 700w offers significantly lower resolution than the screen on the 650, and the new model costs twice as much -- $400 versus $200.

For individual users, the main advantage of the new Treo 700w is that it is the first Treo to work on Verizon's high-speed EV-DO network. That network delivers data speeds that rival those of home DSL lines. But the speed advantage will be short-lived, because I expect to see a Palm-based Treo in coming months that can also use the EV-DO network ... The Treo 700w will appeal to some Windows Mobile fans, and to some corporate IT staffs. But for everyone else, I advise sticking with the Palm-based Treos.

Will the 700w turn out to be Palm's ROKR: the most anticipated flop of the year?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 9:22:42 AM # Q

true, but:

1. people will buy it en masse anyway.
2. it will only get better and better.



RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 9:50:39 AM # Q
I am as critical as Palm of anyone and I have to give them major props for the relentless stream of improvements made to the 650 since its inception/launch. It was extremely buggy at launch but they've done an amazing amount of patching & updating to bring it up to solid standards. Amazing how a Treo with a cell phone piggybacking on top of it can be more stable than many of Palm's dedicated PDAs!

If the 700w is patched & supported with the same zeal that the 650 has enjoyed then only good can come from it. In the 700w's favor is a MUCH more robust set of hardware specs, so between M$ & Palm working on the software side things might start to work out rather well and the 700w will be a more compelling unit 6 months to a year down the road from where it is today.

On a related note: Did anyone see the news on the Treonauts blog about the impending 650 major firmware update? People are speculating that it's going to add anything from BlackBerry connect, Sprint Vision speed improvements via software, updates to VersaMail & Blazer etc etc. As long as Palm rolls this out to all carriers & flavors of 650, it'll make a nice 1-2-3 punch for '06 (650 update, 700w release, 700p release in a few months).

I STILL think that the 700w is the tip of the iceberg and unless the 700w is a *TOTAL* flop there will be at least one more WinMob Treo and maybe a WinMob PDA yet this year. Garnet will hang in there for the rest of '06 as the bulk of the PDA line and for the lower-end Treos.

P.S. Anyone read today's edition of USA Today? Who wants to bet there is a huge fullpage color ad from Verzon/Palm announcing the 700w? Always an attention getter!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:55:02 AM # Q
I expected it to sound this way when I heard that it had WM5 + 312mhz. Kinda like a tricked out, high revving, 200HP 4-cyclinder 32 valve 1.8L engine stuck in a Peterbilt. Pushing WinMollasses5 with flash-ram & that little engine did not sound exciting, even tho the pixels are now only 1/2. Everyone has been talking about how this would be the perfect device to compare WM vs POS ... hehe.

Is WSJ the only one to review so far?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 10:05:36 AM # Q
RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 10:09:29 AM # Q
Here's another:

http://www.mobiletechreview.com/Treo-700w.htm

Also, David Pogue reviewed one as did MSNBC's personal tech guy (biased arse).

The reviews seem to run the gamut from "so-so" to "phenomenal"

I am surprised by the hardware specs as well as the claimed speed of the unit (no one's commented on it being laggy in reviews). However, I am surprised that people are still complaing about it being unintuitive,requiring too many keystrokes etc. Wasn't Palm working to SIMPLIFY WinMob?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 10:26:46 AM # Q

windows mobile is not palm os and palm os is not windows mobile.

if you are used to one platform, the other platform will appear counter-intuitive and clunky.



RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 10:30:03 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Wasn't Palm working to SIMPLIFY WinMob?

Give them time. There's a pretty big gap to bridge there.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 10:41:40 AM # Q
Right, I know that....and trust me, I'm VERY used to Palm OS, having not seriously used a M$ device since a vintage '00 iPaq.

BUT Mossberg should be pretty up to speed on all things WinMob, right? I suppose he was specifically comparing & contrasting the 700w to the 650 instead of the 700w to OTHER WinMob devices. The later is more what I was wondering--"How much of an improvement is the 700w over older/other/competing WinMob devices as far as navigation and intuitive operation?" I automatically knew/assumed/figured the 650 to be easier to handle in all regards compared to the 700w.

I just wish the impossible would happen (Verizon to get a 700p) but I know that's never going to be the case. Once the Treo 650 is EOL on Verizon that's *it* with POS on their end.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
hoodoo @ 1/5/2006 10:46:26 AM # Q
"Kinda like a tricked out, high revving, 200HP 4-cyclinder 32 valve 1.8L engine stuck in a Peterbilt."

a 32-valve 4-cylinder engine? lol. Is there such a thing?

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 10:50:29 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Once the Treo 650 is EOL on Verizon that's *it* with POS on their end.

That's not the buzz, though. I'll have to look for a link when I get time, but I thought the word was that Verizon *would* be releasing one of the new Palm OS Treos later this year.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 11:27:35 AM # Q
I've never heard of a 32V 4 cyl. engine. I remember being excited about a 16V 4 cyl back in the day! Perhaps this what Pat's RevMobile is powered by?

David;
A link would be greatly appreciated. I wasn't able to turn up anything but the usual Sprint rumors for the 700p. The *new* buzz is apparently that the Hollywood Treo will also be WinMob and then there will be a mildly updated 700w later this year. So that's THREE Winmob Treos this year and just one or two (tops) Palm-based Treos.

Has anyone noticed just how damm good Palm's gotten as of late at keeping things quiet regarding impending hardware launches? Look how the TX was so hazy until a few days before the launch!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 11:37:43 AM # Q
Yeah, that would be pretty hot with 8 valves per cylinder. :-o Ooops, make that 16.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
AdamaDBrown @ 1/5/2006 1:00:21 PM # Q
It's true that Palm has gotten better at keeping their secrets, but part of this has to do with an increased fog of war. There hs been far more rumor, hearsay, and speculation pushed as fact for the last several Palm release cycles, leading to less of a consensus on what the device will actually have. It's been ramping up since the T3, but it only really started in force around the T5--nobody would believe the leaked specs, so rumor thrived.

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 2:36:31 PM # Q
Mossberg's opinion of the new Treo is predictable considering his past views on Windows devices and a STRONG personal bias. He's a dyed in the wool Mac/Palm fan whose computing vision goes no farther than Cupertino and Palo Alto, and his technical skills are sorely lacking. I've caught dear old Uncle Walt in many errors in has past product reviews that indicate a general lack of understanding in the product he's reviewing. One classic example; a couple years ago I watched him on CNBC demoing a new Rio MP3 player and he mentioned how frustrating it was to get the play button to work properly...when in fact the button he was pressing was the HOLD button! Good old Mossy in classic form.

But what really gripes me is the mismatching of Mossberg with the products he reviews. Walt is not a resource for professionals or "prosumers", he's a mainstream reviewer target at casual, far less savvy users. Basically the people who read his columns will NEVER buy a Treo. That being the case, why does WSJ entrust high-tech product reviews to this plodding old fart? You may as well have Martha Stewart review the damn thing.

And as for David Pogue, he's a pill. Pogue is intelligent, a great writer, and has a good sense of humor. His personality shows through in most of his writings, which is a good thing. BUT...the problem is...he's a Mac fanboy. Not just a fanboy, he also happens to be well-known Mac writer who has published many books on Apple, Macintosh, OSX, iPod, etc., which immediately establishes not only a bias, but also a serious conflict of interest. How can he review Windows based products when his bread is buttered by Macintosh? And this conflict of interest (read: bias) shows up time and again in his comments about Windows or Microsoft. Pogue's opinions scarcely look any different from the postings of a common troll on web forums. The only difference is he doesn't spell Microsoft as Micro$oft. Take anything David says about Windows or MS with a grain of salt and a shot of whiskey.

That said, in this particular case, I wouldn't doubt what either of these two are saying is the truth. Especially after using a Windows Mobile 5 device myself. ActiveSync 4 is a friggin disaster. The new UI is a even worse than the previous incarnations. And the low-resolution 240x240 screen is enough to keep many folks (especially Treo 650 users) from "upgrading" to the 700.

Personally, I would wait and see if there will in fact be a Treo 700p. But I'm much more interested in "Lowrider" and "Hollywood." The codenames alone peaks ones interest.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 2:44:49 PM # Q

who cares what the Moz thinks.

what does Kirvin think? it's a really a shame he surrendered/deserted and melted away into the desert before the bomb was dropped on him. i would have liked to see him writhe in this POS apologist's nuclear winter.



RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 2:58:59 PM # Q
> "what does Kirvin think?"

Funny you should mention that. Back when the 700w was first announced, Jeff believed that "Palm and Verizon will only offer this product direct through business channels only. You will NEVER see a Treo 700w sold in retail stores, because PalmOS is the consumer choice." Or something to that effect. Oddly enough, it seems this Treo will be made widely available after all. Could Jeff have been wrong?

Only Jeff could believe that Palm and Verizon would introduce a flagship mobile device...and then bury it away in back channels, away from human eyes and wallets.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 3:09:49 PM # Q

our buddy kirvin! i kind of miss him!

but you know he's here - along with MikeCon - watching and waiting...

hey MikeCon and kirvin - http://henancius.martin-scorsese.net/sounds/casino/peekaboo.wav



RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 3:17:05 PM # Q
There's a funny pic of Jeff somewhere on Tapland. I say funny because he looks so happy holding up his Zodiac in front a retail store Tapwave Kiosk. Now, everything is gone; Tapwave, Zodiac, the retail kiosk, even Jeff.

Poor guy.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 3:24:59 PM # Q

shiit. i found it.

http://www.tapland.com/media/453_large.jpg

scary shiit.


RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
rsc1000 @ 1/5/2006 3:29:24 PM # Q
>>Not just a fanboy, he also happens to be well-known Mac writer who has published many books on Apple, Macintosh, OSX, iPod, etc., which immediately establishes not only a bias, but also a serious conflict of interest. How can he review Windows based products when his bread is buttered by Macintosh?

While i certainly agree with yr take on Moss, i have to wonder who the heck u think IS qualified and un-biased to write reviews of Windows Mobile devices? Oh right - Windows users! If you u agree with that notion (only Windows users can review the Treo 700w) then that's just silly. If you do not agree - then i guess that leaves - who? Linux users? Wait! they are biased against MS too!!
Windows Mobile users or Windows users who don't know Palm OS will probably think this is the bee's knees - but they're biased too. All reviews of PDAs ever are biased based on the same factor.
Last I checked, Apple doesn't own - or own a stake in - Palm or Palm OS.

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 3:40:34 PM # Q
RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 3:42:19 PM # Q
No, just being a user of other platforms doesn't make you less qualified. I happen to be a multi-platformer myself. Most technically skilled individuals are.

I'm saying that having a BIAS makes you less credible. And it Pogue's case it's not just bias, it's questionable financial interests. He makes his money from book royalties covering Apple products.

There's also a cloud of suspicion hanging over Walt's head as well, as the subject of certain "gifts" from Apple has come up in recent months. Word is that Apple lets old Walty keep those Macs he reviews even though he claims otherwise. This is why I call these reviewers into question. They are not entirely trustworthy sources.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
AdamaDBrown @ 1/5/2006 3:47:25 PM # Q
Foo wrote:
That being the case, why does WSJ entrust high-tech product reviews to this plodding old fart?

Probably because the WSJ is targeted at plodding old farts? Seriously, it's not exactly what you would call a cutting-edge tech market.

That said, in this particular case, I wouldn't doubt what either of these two are saying is the truth. Especially after using a Windows Mobile 5 device myself.

Seriously, am I the ONLY person who is having a good WM5 experience? I've found the UI changes to be quite helpful for one-handed navigation, the speed is better (at least on VGA devices) than SE, and I've only encountered one of the bugs that other people have seen. (The ActiveSync wakeup issue, on the PPC-6700.) I guess it must be one of those situations where the people who have had it go well never felt like standing up and making a speech.

You don't have to have any special credentials to review something, but it is neccessary that you not have an existing bias. If you take somebody who uses every opportunity to attack Microsoft, and ask them their opinion about an MS product, of course you're going to get a negative response. It's not a function of your desktop OS--look at the combination Mac/WM users. It's a function of partisanship.

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 3:57:53 PM # Q
> "If you take somebody who uses every opportunity to attack Microsoft, and ask them their opinion about an MS product, of course you're going to get a negative response."

And that was exactly my point about David Pogue. If you followed his writings as long as I have...you would know what kind of tech writer he really is. Some of has past comments about Microsoft are outright slanderous. Why NYT chose him to review PC related products, I'll never know. But it's like having Phil Schiller (Apple VP of marketing) review Windows products.

> "Seriously, am I the ONLY person who is having a good WM5 experience? I've found the UI changes to be quite helpful for one-handed navigation, the speed is better (at least on VGA devices) than SE, and I've only encountered one of the bugs that other people have seen."

To be fair, I'm using what must be the absolute worst Windows Mobile 5 device available...the iPaq rx1955. This thing has proven to be a steaming litter box of cat excrement. I bought it on the cheap ($230) with the intention (or rather delusion) of using it as a simple WiFi device to toss around for grabbing email and such. Oddly enough, it's good for anything BUT. The Wireless capability is ****. It won't connect to my secured WiFi network at all, and sometimes not even when I OPEN the network up. I keep getting a message saying it cannot find a DHCP server. What's even more frustrating is when, after one or two failed connection attempts...it REMOVES my network profile. Meaning I have to go back add a new network profile, input my WEP keys settings and everything. Nice, huh?

I finally broke down soon after and purchased a TX. Guess what? The TX connects fast and flawlessly. I turn on WiFi (on the TX) it sniffs my network and connects in less than 5 seconds. Boom! I'm online checking my email, etc. The iPaq takes up to 5 minutes to connect, on those rare moments when it actually succeeds of course.

The iPaq also doesn't support softkeys, so they are useless to me. And I hate the way all the tools and options, which were once instantly accessible, are now buried away in submenus. As for one-handed navigation...it simply does not exist on this particular device. Partly for the lack of softkey buttons. The experience might be much improved on WinMob Smartphone device, but on a standard PDA it outright sucks. The piddly QVGA screen is gutting compared to that oh so lovely HVGA Palm resolution, which is why I wouldn't leap at the chance of buying a 700w or any other WinMob device. 480x480 is my demand and nothing less.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 3:58:21 PM # Q

"You like what you know."

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Surur @ 1/5/2006 4:10:41 PM # Q

Could kirvin look any less distinguished? I certainly imagined him differently.

WM fans love the Treo 700w. Mobiletechreview gave it 4 1/2 stars out of 5. I guess a review should be aimed at the potential users. If you want to convert POS users get a POS user to review it. If you want WM to upgrade to it then get WM fans to review it. I agree Mossberg and friend did not have a good reputation amongst WM users even before this. The only way to counter bias is to get as many reviews as possible, and listen to the reviewers you trust.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 5:46:22 PM # Q
Surur/Gekko;

That's EXACTLY how I imagined him looking (but with less hair, actually).

Ditto the comments about the TX's wi-fi prowess. Given Palm's relative lack of experience in all things wi-fi, the TX performs beautifully. I have taken it to be my around-the-town wi-fi hotspot sniffer and it's even enabled me to finally throw out that piece of junk Kensington Wi-FINDER I had been carrying in my laptop bag.

A shame the TX's BT stack is in such shambles, isn't it? More so than anyone else, Palm jumped on the BT bandwagon _early_. They should have an absolutely flawless BT wizard & configuration. I still cannot get over the fact of how the Thinkoutside/Palm keyboard driver keeps turning on BT when I have just an IR keyboard!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
AdamaDBrown @ 1/5/2006 6:29:07 PM # Q
Foo said:

To be fair, I'm using what must be the absolute worst Windows Mobile 5 device available...the iPaq rx1955.

Whoogh. You need to get yourself an Axim.

The iPaq also doesn't support softkeys, so they are useless to me.

Actually, you can remap the app buttons to the softkeys, which is what I do. Yes, you lose any app-launching capability from your front buttons, which is a little annoying, but it does enable one-hand navigation, which is pretty nice.

Surur, what you say about a review being aimed at potential users is pretty on the mark. I would probably have to give the T700 a relatively good score for its combination of form-factor and features, even though I wouldn't want to use one myself. (240 x 240 screen, plus I'm not into converged devices.)

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Simony @ 1/5/2006 7:55:45 PM # Q
It will be interesting to see how Gartner classify this thing when they next do their numbers. Eg, will they count this thing in the numbers of WM devices but continue to exclude the Treo 600/650 shipments from the PalmOS numbers?

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 8:16:25 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Ditto the comments about the TX's wi-fi prowess. Given Palm's relative lack of experience in all things wi-fi, the TX performs beautifully.

You know, for once I'm actually thinking about picking one of these up for my own use. How's the battery life in actual use?

Damn, one major sticking point is that I'm a major 30wpm Fitaly user and TextWare bailed out of supporting FitalyVirtual on the TX after Palm once again changed the dynamic input area implementation under the hood. It's such a shame.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
Scott R @ 1/5/2006 11:11:25 PM # Q
Meh. I like both Mossberg and Pogue in that they both focus on the usability aspects of the devices they review. I guess that's *my* bias, and I suspect that's theirs as well. Instead of tearing them down, why not argue the specific issues they raised in their reviews?

I gave the PPC-6700 two weeks of my time and then returned it. I really wanted to like it, but I didn't. I even thought about keeping it simply for the sake of having a device to aid me in learning .NET programming so that I could write some new shareware apps to improve the WM5 experience, but I needed something that worked well for my daily usage and decided to switch back to my Treo 650.

The Palm-developed usability-focused applets are great, but they're akin to putting a gold ring in a pig's ear. Windows Mobile enjoys some fundamental usability flaws that cannot be overcome by add-on software. Other usability issues can be, however. The bottom line is that unless and until Access/PalmSource get their act together or some unheard-of makes their presence known, WM5 looks to be what we have to work with. Like it or lump it.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
scstraus2 @ 1/6/2006 5:20:32 AM # Q
I've always said that the 700w is a "Worst of both worlds" solution. The hardware vendor with the poorest build quality combined with the software maker with the most cumbersome OS.

If I was going to buy a WM device I certainly wouldn't buy it from palm. Actually if I had any option of someone else to buy a palm phone from I would probably buy it from them. I think anyone who buys this thing is a fool. There's much better WM solutions out there. The question is really just whether you can stand WM. I can't.

But, yeah, IT departments will probably still shove them down people's throats. Damn IT departments.

RE: Mossberg: 700w stinks up the room
rcartwright @ 1/6/2006 7:20:15 AM # Q
Gekko, Foo, Suer:

I was going to let this slide, but:

Re: Jeff Kirvin:

First, I believe he said that the 700w would be marketed to corporate IT and would probably be in the corporate channel first, not that consumers could not get them.

Second, the picture in question was submitted for a contest put on by Zodiac. Also, Jeff has lost weight. Probably lost some hair too. Context matters. I am a little curious as to when folks are going to quit "waiving the bloody shirt" of Kirvin, he's left the game already guys. Move on.

Third, as a practical matter, the fact that Palm is selling a WM device is just giving a segment of your market what they ask for. It was very interesting to note that Gates put a fair amount of his Bill Clintonesq (read LONG -the speech anyway) CES keynote on the WM Treo.

Finally, in the end so what if Access/PalmSource EOLs Garnet? We used to use CP/M, then there was DOS, then Windows. The average end user does not really care whats under the hood, they care if it does the job. Palm will have the "Palm OS" if for no other reason than to keep its independence from Microsoft.



"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Reply to this comment

Perverted.

legodude522 @ 1/5/2006 3:41:49 PM # Q
The bastard child of Ed Colligan and Bill Gates!

Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present
RE: Perverted.
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 3:58:44 PM # Q

and who are you the bastard child of?

RE: Perverted.
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 4:47:09 PM # Q
In all of this I just have to ask...where is TVoR and his/her wit/wisdom/insight/wry commentary/barbs?

No MikeCane....No Kirvin...No Marty Fouts...No Voice...what is the reason for the dearth of comments by the "names" here on PIC during this WATERSHED event???

On a related note, the discussion so far seems to be moving merrily along and filled with some good insight and thoughtful commentary. Let's keep it up!

P.S. Is block character recongition (aka GRAFFITI 1) still present in the Treo or did Palm somehow armtwist M$ into removing it?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Perverted.
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 5:17:41 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
In all of this I just have to ask...where is TVoR and his/her wit/wisdom/insight/wry commentary/barbs?
...
On a related note, the discussion so far seems to be moving merrily along and filled with some good insight and thoughtful commentary.

"On a related note...." I love it. Isn't the presence of TVoR in a thread almost always the thing that brings any thoughtful commentary to a grinding halt?

Be honest, now: when was the last time you had any "wisdom" or "insight" from TVoR? Surely you've been around the block enough to realize that only "voice" he hears is in his head. Half the stuff he posts here would be considered by a qualified professional to be a cry for help, and the rest is just grandstanding, not anything you could call analysis or commentary. He's a bright guy as most paranoid schizophrenics are, and he's probably blessed with a supportive family to be able to function as well as he does, but don't kid yourself about his contributions here being anything more than "color."

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Perverted.
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 5:26:37 PM # Q
I doubt you'll see Mike here anytime soon. He has completely lost interest in Palm OS (who hasn't?). The Nokia Internet Tablet is his object of affection.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Perverted.
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 5:32:06 PM # Q
Oh! And how could I forget....no Dr. "nitwit" O! ;-)

Yeah, I read Mike's "rantings of a madman" Nokia blog a while back.

Kent;
Have YOU personally started to lose interest in POS?
Show of hands, anyone?


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Perverted.
Foo Fighter @ 1/5/2006 5:49:35 PM # Q
Depends on which Palm OS you're talking about. Garnet? Pffft! I lost interest in that OS ages ago. Garnet is little more than a calculator operating system in this market. It's alive only because of Palm, or Treo to be more precise. Though it still does a good job of being what it is...whatever that is, it's simply a dead platform. PLinux is what keeps my interest (and tempered enthusiasm) alive. Unfortunately we're not going to see that OS until 2007.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
The tip of the iceberg.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 6:58:18 PM # Q
hkklife: Much bigger things are now going on with PalmOS that have sealed the platform's fate. Commenting right now would be akin to kicking someone when he's down.

I'll leave it up to Ryan's discretion to report on what's happening at PalmSource right now...

Beersy: http://tinyurl.com/a7swm


Two further comments:

- I had been advisd that Garmin was pulling out of the PalmOS device sphere. Their new GPS was evidently too far down the development cycle to cancel when this decision was made last year.

- The Windows Mobile Treo is a device primarily for BUSINESSES and will be sold as a Blackberry Killer to businesses with Microsoft Exchange Server. If one accepts the truism that most users are not geeks and only "need"/use a tiny fraction of their devices' capabilities, you'll see why the T7W did not need to reach a high standard to be considered a success. The fox is in the henhouse. Palm's fate is sealed.

These are sad times for those of us who have supported Palm/PalmOS over the years.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 7:39:56 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Much bigger things are now going on with PalmOS that have sealed the platform's fate. Commenting right now would be akin to kicking someone when he's down.

I'm sincerely impressed by your restraint, Voice. If you're talking about the same "things going on with Palm OS" that I'm thinking of I'd just like to remind you that regardless of what you might hear no fate is sealed just yet. ACCESS seems to have a very good record in managing engineering teams and delivering products, and given their level of investment I fully expect them to bring some of that expertise to bear within PalmSource.

In the meantime, here's to anticipating the 700p!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

A waste of a great platform.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 8:28:11 PM # Q
Beersy, let's let this play out on its own as it will (don't say anything else publicly). I trust you're smart enough to cover yourself by maintaining your skills in a variety of environments.


I'm not sure how many times they think they can reinvent the wheel without destroying the platform (and the livelihood of all those dependent upon it) in the process. If the clock is about to strike midnight, you dance with the girl/guy you brought to the party.


Fcuk Benhamou.

Fcuk corporate games.

Fcuk every idiot executive at Palm/"PalmSource" that has leeched all the remaining blood out of the compan[y][ies].


I'll have NOTHING more to say about this until the sh!t hits the fan.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
Simony @ 1/5/2006 8:39:12 PM # Q
> The Windows Mobile Treo is a device primarily for BUSINESSES and will be sold as a Blackberry Killer to businesses with Microsoft Exchange Server.

Maybe. Maybe not. Some corporate IT departments will not allow access through the Microsoft Exchange Server for non-BB devices, when they have bought and paid for the BB service. (At least that's what our IT people say.)

RE: Perverted.
AdamaDBrown @ 1/5/2006 9:18:44 PM # Q
Some corporate IT departments will not allow access through the Microsoft Exchange Server for non-BB devices, when they have bought and paid for the BB service.

Then your IT people are either crazy or stupid. The 700w and Exchange push would let them cut out the cost of all the Blackberry tech.

Guess again, Bubba.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 9:40:20 PM # Q
Some corporate IT departments will not allow access through the Microsoft Exchange Server for non-BB devices, when they have bought and paid for the BB service. (At least that's what our IT people say.)

"Why get something for free when you can pay for it instead?"

Yeah. Right.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
freakout @ 1/5/2006 9:47:35 PM # Q
Cervezas and TVoR:

TVoR:
"Much bigger things are now going on with PalmOS that have sealed the platform's fate. Commenting right now would be akin to kicking someone when he's down."

Cervezas:
"I'm sincerely impressed by your restraint, Voice. If you're talking about the same "things going on with Palm OS" that I'm thinking of I'd just like to remind you that regardless of what you might hear no fate is sealed just yet."

Do you guys have this kind of secret discussion on a public forum to *deliberately* drive people like me nuts? ;) What do you know that the rest of us don't?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Perverted.
Simony @ 1/5/2006 10:00:32 PM # Q
> Then your IT people are either crazy or stupid. The 700w and Exchange push would let them cut out the cost of all the Blackberry tech.

With respect, I think you are wrong - our IT people are BOTH crazy AND stupid. But that's what they told me when I asked to connect my Treo 650 (when I was using it) to access our firm's email system. They point blank refused my request even though we have Exchange and even though I gave them the link to Palm's website which contains instructions about using a Treo 650 with Exchange.

If this pigheaded attitude is typical of what other corporate IT departments do, then it be another example of 'tyranny of the installed base' (as the phenomenon has been described so eloquently).

Sorry, Bubba.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 10:09:30 PM # Q
Sorry, but you'll know what we're talking about soon enough. Until then, I doubt either of us will be saying anything else here, so let it go.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Microsoft steamroller flattens another competitor.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 10:14:00 PM # Q
> Then your IT people are either crazy or stupid. The 700w and Exchange push would let them cut out the cost of all the Blackberry tech.

With respect, I think you are wrong - our IT people are BOTH crazy AND stupid. But that's what they told me when I asked to connect my Treo 650 (when I was using it) to access our firm's email system. They point blank refused my request even though we have Exchange and even though I gave them the link to Palm's website which contains instructions about using a Treo 650 with Exchange.

If this pigheaded attitude is typical of what other corporate IT departments do, then it be another example of 'tyranny of the installed base' (as the phenomenon has been described so eloquently).

I think you're confusing an IT department's (understandable) desire to maintain uniformity (and decrease support headaches from your use of a single personal Treo 650) with what will be inevitable embracement of an upcoming "All-Microsoft" push email "solution". Bye Bye Blackberry. Businesses will go with Microsoft, but when they do so, it will be the ENTIRE company converting - not a willy-nilly conversion on an individual basis by a select few power users. Use a little common sense next time.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
freakout @ 1/5/2006 10:29:02 PM # Q
TVoR:
"Sorry, but you'll know what we're talking about soon enough. Until then, I doubt either of us will be saying anything else here, so let it go."

Curse you, insiders! I don't want to be part of your stupid little club anyways!! :P

Can you tell us how long before this bomb is dropped?

Promise that's my last question.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Perverted.
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 10:41:32 PM # Q
freakout wrote:
Do you guys have this kind of secret discussion on a public forum to *deliberately* drive people like me nuts?

Yes, that's the general idea. :P

I don't actually have inside information and am not aware of anything I'd call a "bomb" dropping. What I do know I'd rather not discuss any more than I already have because, well, just because.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Adios.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 10:41:46 PM # Q
Can you tell us how long before this bomb is dropped?

Promise that's my last question.


Sadly, it's already been dropped.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
PenguinPowered @ 1/6/2006 2:01:37 AM # Q
In all of this I just have to ask... [...] No Marty Fouts... [...] what is the reason for the dearth of comments by the "names" here on PIC during this WATERSHED event???

I'm flattered by being considered a "name", but I haven't said anything because I don't have anything to say. Palm didn't share any details on 700W with us, and I probably couldn't share them if they did. Besides, I'm currently locked into a two year deal on my cell phone, so I'm definitely not in the market.

Also, I've been busy with the holidays, and not getting hired by Google to work on whatever they bought Android for, and I start my new job on next Wednesday, so I'm probably going to be even less vocal in the near future.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Perverted.
Simony @ 1/6/2006 4:27:35 AM # Q
> I think you're confusing an IT department's (understandable) desire to maintain uniformity (and decrease support headaches from your use of a single personal Treo 650) with what will be inevitable embracement of an upcoming "All-Microsoft" push email "solution". Bye Bye Blackberry. Businesses will go with Microsoft, but when they do so, it will be the ENTIRE company converting - not a willy-nilly conversion on an individual basis by a select few power users. Use a little common sense next time.

That is so typical of the sort of attitude I have come to expect from help desk jockeys like you.

I'm not the only one being persecuted. The guys next door to me bought himself an I-mate JAM for Christmas. Will IT let him access his emails? No. Same story for colleagues on other floors and other offices. Regardless of whether someone has a Palm OS devices or something else, it's the same story: Blackberry or nothing. Period.

I don't claim to be a 'power user'. All I (and others) wanted was to access emails from our system. Is this too much to ask these days? No, I wouldn't have thought so, not in today's environment. But because I purchased a Treo (rather than a Blackberry), I'm not permitted access. Why? Because our IT people say it's Blackberry or nothing. Period.

3) It happens that I'm a co-owner of our business. You know what that means? It means I'm the poor shmuck how has to pay for all the nice shiny hardware and software that keeps our IT people amused. (Let's not even go into the ridiculous salaries we pay them.) Don't you think it would be 'common sense' for them to do as I and my partners ask? It doesn't matter to them - so far as they are concerned, it's Blackberry or nothing. Period.

Things may change. But for now, this is the what we have to put up with, at least in our firm.

The Unbearable Lightness of Being Simony. [AKA "Woe is he."]
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 3:52:27 PM # Q
That is so typical of the sort of attitude I have come to expect from help desk jockeys like you.

I'm not the only one being persecuted. The guys next door to me bought himself an I-mate JAM for Christmas. Will IT let him access his emails? No. Same story for colleagues on other floors and other offices. Regardless of whether someone has a Palm OS devices or something else, it's the same story: Blackberry or nothing. Period.

I don't claim to be a 'power user'. All I (and others) wanted was to access emails from our system. Is this too much to ask these days? No, I wouldn't have thought so, not in today's environment. But because I purchased a Treo (rather than a Blackberry), I'm not permitted access. Why? Because our IT people say it's Blackberry or nothing. Period.

3) It happens that I'm a co-owner of our business. You know what that means? It means I'm the poor shmuck how has to pay for all the nice shiny hardware and software that keeps our IT people amused. (Let's not even go into the ridiculous salaries we pay them.) Don't you think it would be 'common sense' for them to do as I and my partners ask? It doesn't matter to them - so far as they are concerned, it's Blackberry or nothing. Period.

Things may change. But for now, this is the what we have to put up with, at least in our firm.

Spoken like a clueless twit, Simony. People who think like you are precicely the reason IT departments are so anxious to maintain strict control over all devices interfacing with their systems. Exactly how many different devices do you expect your IT department should be supporting? Let's see... the company's Blackberrys, your Treo 650, the I-mate JAM of "The guy[s] next door, and maybe all of the devices of "colleagues on other floors and other offices"? Wow. Hope you have a BIG budget for your IT department. Maybe then they'll stop making you feel so "persecuted".



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
Simony @ 1/9/2006 3:03:31 AM # Q
> Spoken like a clueless twit, Simony. People who think like you are precicely the reason IT departments are so anxious to maintain strict control over all devices interfacing with their systems. Exactly how many different devices do you expect your IT department should be supporting? Let's see... the company's Blackberrys, your Treo 650, the I-mate JAM of "The guy[s] next door, and maybe all of the devices of "colleagues on other floors and other offices"? Wow. Hope you have a BIG budget for your IT department. Maybe then they'll stop making you feel so "persecuted".

The 'clueless twit' you are referring to is the one who foots the bill.

RE: Perverted.
Simony @ 1/9/2006 3:17:03 AM # Q
IT is our 3rd biggest expense item - that's operating expense (ie, not taking into account depreciation of equipment) - last year it was about $12.8m. (The auditors haven't finished going over the books yet.) We have about 210 partners - so, I bear nearly 5% of those costs personally. Doesn't that give me some say? Or perhaps I'm a 'clueless twit' to think otherwise?

Clueless in Seattle.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 9:40:02 AM # Q
IT is our 3rd biggest expense item - that's operating expense (ie, not taking into account depreciation of equipment) - last year it was about $12.8m. (The auditors haven't finished going over the books yet.) We have about 210 partners - so, I bear nearly 5% of those costs personally. Doesn't that give me some say? Or perhaps I'm a 'clueless twit' to think otherwise?

If your IT department started supporting every user's personal device - like you seem to expect them to - they might just suddenly become your company's BIGGEST expense item.

If you're such a bigwig in your company and still can't get them to bend the rules for you, you must be quite a wuss. Really.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Perverted.
freakout @ 1/10/2006 12:17:23 AM # Q
"If you're such a bigwig in your company and still can't get them to bend the rules for you, you must be quite a wuss. Really."

Lol.

Sorry, Simony. But he makes a good point.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Perverted.
Simony @ 1/20/2006 7:59:16 PM # Q
Fine. What ever you say.

Reply to this comment

TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced

Surur @ 1/5/2006 5:35:23 PM # Q
Conclusion

The Treo 700w on Verizon costs $399.99 with a two year service contract, or $649 without a contract. Unlimited EVDO costs just less than $50. The device is shipping now, and is available at all Verizon retailers today.

I have been extremely critical and detailed in my evaluation of the Treo 700w. There are significant problems with specific parts of the Windows Mobile software running on the device. However, not many of my critiques are about device-ruining problems; cell phone users have grown accustomed to poorly done menu driven interfaces. It is also depressing to me that Palm has yet to offer a device with smaller form or weight, even as thin metal devices like the Motorola RAZR and Apple’s iPod have become extremely popular (for good reason!).
The Treo 700w represents two step forwards, and one large step back. That said, it is clear to me that net net, the Treo 700w offers significant hardware (EVDO) and software improvements (Today Screen, Email, Multimedia) over the Treo 650.

The Treo 700w is an excellent Windows Mobile device, likely the best that has ever been produced. Windows Mobile users will love it, IT departments who only use Windows will love it, but Palm users may want to stick to their current Treo 650. For Treo 650 owners, it is hard to justify the cost (twice as much with contracts), and Palm users above all others will be aware and frustrated with usability problems in Windows Mobile.

The Treo 700w was created to specifically address a demand in the marketplace for a Windows Treo, and Palm did an excellent job on their first try. It only takes a trip down memory lane to remember that the Palm OS Treo was not perfect at launch either.


Criteria
Rating

Setup 5
Usability 3
Features 5
Cost/Benefit 4
Overall 4/5
(not an average)

Pros
Active Today Screen
EVDO
Windows Mobile
Multitasking


Cons
240x240 Screen
"One interface fits all metaphor"
Inconsistent five-way navigation

http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/735-8.htm

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/5/2006 6:20:53 PM # Q
Another positive review from BusinessWeek's Steven Wildstrom

I have been using Palms of one sort or another for a decade, and at first the Treo 700w seemed a little weird. Many Palm aficionados will prefer to stick with the familiar Treo 650. For one thing, it offers a better display, since Palm actually had to reduce resolution to meet Windows standards. But Pocket PC users and many newcomers to high-end smartphones will find the Treo 700w a delight. It's by far the best Pocket PC I have used, and the first one that I have ever really wanted to carry.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jan2006/tc20060105_864306.htm?campaign_id=hp_views&campaign_creative=Steve%20Wildstrom

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/5/2006 8:35:02 PM # Q
> The Treo 700w is an excellent Windows Mobile device

Translation: The Treo 700w is excellent FOR A Windows Mobile device. That's not saying much, is it?

Let's see how the sales of this monstrosity go.

Further down the Downward Spiral™ (Nine Inch Nails)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 9:42:23 PM # Q
Let's see how the sales of this monstrosity go.

Does it really matter how the T7W sells? Its release symbolizes the end of PalmOS. The Huns have finally broken through the gates and it's just a matter of time before they'll all be partying on Colligan et al's a$$es.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/5/2006 10:10:49 PM # Q
"Its release symbolizes the end of PalmOS"

In the future, maybe. But judging from the reviews, this puppy is still far from being a PalmOS replacement. The only true benefits I can see are the built-in media player and the superior camera.

It seems to have taken a few steps back interface-wise. I *hate* the "everything-under-a-menu" design philosophy that most cellphones follow, and the 700w seems to fall right into this categoy. And the Messaging app - one of the Treo's biggest selling points - has been neutered, despite the email integration.

In other words: it says Treo on the outside, but it's not there yet. Props to Palm for taking a good shot though.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/5/2006 10:12:46 PM # Q
Or to paraphrase your role model:

"Those dogs will roast their stomachs at the gates of Bagdad. They are all doomed."

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
twrock @ 1/5/2006 10:19:30 PM # Q
Another positive review from BusinessWeek's Steven Wildstrom

...if you were already wanting a WM device. Yep, seems Palm figured out how to make a great WM device.

Is it just me? I haven't gone out of my way to find reviews of the 700w, but so far, seems the general feeling is that the 650 is still at least the equal if not the superior device. We are "almost" looking at a head-to-head comparison. Seems the OS really does matter, and the very-long-in-the-tooth Garnet is looking pretty good still. What gives Surur? This 700w with WM should be far superior to 650 with Garnet. It has such a superior OS, right? ;)

(Incidentally, TinyURL is our friend.)

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

"Let the American infidels bask in their illusion" - M.S.S.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 10:23:07 PM # Q
http://www.freewarepalm.com/database/deathless.shtml


But I prefer the way I put it.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/6/2006 3:23:17 AM # Q
This 700w with WM should be far superior to 650 with Garnet. It has such a superior OS, right? ;)

A few things.

a) The Treo 700w is quite a poorly featured WM device
b) It has been seriously crippled memory wise by Palm (as they usually do) What were they thinking!?!
c) The UI (which is what most reviewers are complaining about) isn't everything.

If the Treo 700w turns out to be more useful than a 650 it will be the better device. Especially if its more stable. Its already more expandable (look at the WIFI card).

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/6/2006 4:49:55 AM # Q
"The UI (which is what most reviewers are complaining about) isn't everything."

Just 90% of it. ;)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
amike @ 1/6/2006 6:54:07 AM # Q
Is it fair to compare this T7W with the treo650, one-year-old model and only little-improved Handspring tréo600 ???



RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
hkklife @ 1/6/2006 9:44:12 AM # Q
Yes, it's completely and perfectly fair to compare the 700w to the 650. The 650 still has the superior UI, one-handed experience, and screen resolution.

I do agree with some of the other postings here that the strong showing the ancient 650 makes next to the 700w is more of a testament to the inherent weaknesses & usability guffaws of WinMob instead of the "strengths" of Garnet.

I am absolutely going nuts trying to find ANY concrete proof of the 700p's existence. It's all hearsay regarding its impending launch on Sprint. The whole thing could STILL end up being a Zire 73 (a heavily rumored but ultimately vaporous product).

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
LiveFaith @ 1/6/2006 9:57:19 AM # Q
amike,

I wouldn't call it "little improved" over the 600, except for the 32mb memory insanity. BT, hi-resolution and double the horsepower took an great device and made it awesomr IMO. Now that it's stable, it's become such a standard that Bill Gates held it in his hand gloating in SF.

That being said, the above discussion about WM v POS is amusing. The older (15+ months!)POS version seems to be getting superior billing ... Yes, but the 700w is crippled specwise. :-D The "superior" Treo 650 has only 32mb RAM, while the 700w has a newer PXA, WMs only available resolution and a whopping 128MB RAM, yet Palm "underpowered" it. Imagine the Treo 650 if it had all that memory + the ROM ... they would have already taken over the world and Ed Colligen would be our benevolent dictator.

Hehe ... I think we've answered our own question here concerning the superior OS. Unfortunately market forces are propelling us toward adoption of the lesser standard. :-(

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
hkklife @ 1/6/2006 10:13:52 AM # Q
The "superior" OS in terms of featureset, media capabilities, multi-tasking, scalability etc?

OR

The "superior" OS in terms of intuitiveness, user-friendliness, software base, minimal memory & CPU requirements?

Superiority is a relative term/status/condition...and it's not exactly inexorably linked to either the PPC or POS camp.

Remember: "the grass is always greener"

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
AdamaDBrown @ 1/6/2006 11:17:04 AM # Q
I am absolutely going nuts trying to find ANY concrete proof of the 700p's existence.

Save your sanity. There isn't any, at least not yet, just the statement that they would be introing 3 new Treos besides the 700w. That may mean 700p plus two other models, or it may mean 700w GSM, plus 700p GSM and CDMA. Or it may mean something completely different.

On the subject of the 650 versus the 700, I think that a lot of this is in the eye of the beholder. Realistically, there isn't so much of a difference between the two OSes that you could reasonably look at one and pronounce it the greatest thing since sliced bread, and say that the other is terrible. Both have a Today screen. Both of them have an application list screen. Windows has a Start button, and Palm has a Home button, which perform very similar tasks, i.e. giving you access to recently run programs or the main app screen. Both have pop-up menus for program options. Both have been knocked for speed issues, though I don't see the big deal with either. Both have been knocked for multitasking related oversights. Both have one-handed navigation. And so on, and so on...

Palm and Windows really aren't that hugely different. So go, prefer one or the other, but don't waste your time on arguing supremacy over what is realistically a mostly perceptual difference.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/6/2006 1:07:00 PM # Q
Well my review unit just rolled in and I have to say, based on first impressions, this device is much more impressive than I thought it would be. What's all this talk about poor or uneven one-handed operation? So far I haven't found any use for the stylus at all.

The screen is absolutely gorgeous. And I'm pleased to say the low-resolution isn't nearly as obvious as you might think. The smaller screen size packs the pixels together more tightly which gives the illusion of high-res. Still not quite as sharp as the 650, but just as bright.

Here's one that will throw you all for a loop...as it did me at first; the 700w will work with standard Treo and TX sync cables. I took the 700w and plugged it into my TX's sync cable the device immediately synced up automatically without pressing the sync button of course.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/6/2006 2:00:28 PM # Q
I retract what I said. The 700w's display is better than that of the 650. Whereas the 700w is slightly brighter, colors are much more accurate. The 650 has a noticable blue hue to the screen that I hadn't noticed until comparing side by side with the 650.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/6/2006 2:02:41 PM # Q
Audio quality (through the headphone jack) isn't as good though. The 650 sounds much richer and has more volume.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/6/2006 6:59:50 PM # Q
^^ I read somewhere the 650 uses the same sound hardware chip as the iPod. Is this true, and if so does the 700w have the same chip?

If not, then maybe its just the 700w's media software; i.e. PockeTunes sounds better than Realplayer does. Sounds a lot richer, and not quite as tinny.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/6/2006 8:30:50 PM # Q
> Palm and Windows really aren't that hugely different. So go, prefer one or the other, but don't waste your time on arguing supremacy over what is realistically a mostly perceptual difference.

Wait a minute.

For years, the trolls have run riot here at PIC, with their M$ sponsored spin campaigns, ranting about the inferiority of Palm OS. Mr Hansberry's flunkies have made literally hundreds of posts on this subject. In post after post, they harped on and on about the weaknesses of Palm OS. In post after post, they claimed that Palm OS had broken down, that it was obsolete, that it is good for nothing, etc, etc. Anyone who didn't agree with them was labelled an 'Apologist' or was abused in other ways.

For years, the trolls have sought to brag about the alleged superiority of WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever (and they tried to turn a blind eye to all its deficiencies). They went on and on about the alleged superiority of 'multi-tasking', they repeated all of M$'s marketing spin about 'you can do more' with one of their devices, etc, etc.

But now that a direct comparison between Palm OS Garnet and Windows Docile can be made, on hardware which is similar, now you are saying that they are not 'hugely different'? How can this be?

More importantly, why is it that M$ has wasted all that time and money producing an OS for handheld devices which is not 'hugely different' from what they claim to be a broken down and obsolete rival?

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/6/2006 9:46:33 PM # Q
Simony, WM has more solid foundations. Even if it does not have the kind of polish POS users like, its still a better, broader platform.

Lets see - with the Treo 700w you get, out of the box:

1) a today screen.
2) memory protection
3) multi-tasking
4) mp3 ring tones
5) wider range of drivers, meaning a bigger pool of accessories
6) the ability to have multiple active IP connections (e.g. WIFI and EVDO at the same time)
7) .Net CF, which will make it extremely easy to port mobile apps
8) MS Voice Command
9) The ability to use larger SD >2GB
10) Access to a large library of modern software
11) Access to a large library of modern games
12) Full Activesync support (e-mail, calender, contacts etc)
13) In the next few months, push e-mail and A2DP
14) PlayForSure compatibility
15) Better bluetooth Support
16) Better network support (e.g. mapping shared drives)
17) An actively developed OS with an upgrade path.
18) After you transition, you will have a much wider range of hardware available to you in the future (vs the limited POS offerings).

I'm sure there are many more benefits, but the OS situation is certainly better on the WM side. You may be able to get most of these things on the Treo 650, but it will cost you extra. These are all out of the box. POS may have been refined over the years, but its all superficial, in the UI. The woodwork is thoroughly rotten.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/6/2006 9:59:48 PM # Q
> "Save your sanity. There isn't any, at least not yet, just the statement that they would be introing 3 new Treos besides the 700w."

There will be a Treo 700p, but that may be the only Palm OS Smartphone we see from Palm this year. And I have a hunch Palm is going to roll its own Linux/J2ME phone as well as a Windows Mobile Smartphone (I'm talking genuine Smartphone, not Pocket PC PE). But I have an itching sensation that tells me Palm is working with RIM in some fashion. I half wonder if we'll see a merger in the works, or if Palm may somehow license their platform to create Palm Blackberries. We'll see.

I'm betting we're also going to see one or more Windows Mobile PDA as well, but probably just one high-end model as I expect Palm and other vendors move away from traditional PDAs. No one is investing in that space anymore.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/6/2006 10:23:44 PM # Q
My comments in capitals:

1) a today screen. THIS IS THE 'TODAY SCREEN' WHICH WINMOB USERS COMPLAIN ABOUT EG, THE SLOWNESS OF IT WHEN RUNNING PLUG-INS?
2) memory protection AS IN NVFS (COPIED FROM PALM)?
3) multi-tasking WHICH MEANS THAT YOU CAN'T TURN OFF AN APP WHICH YOU ARE NO LONGER USING, THUS ADVERSELY AFFECTING PERFORMANCE ON AN APP THAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO USE. THIS IS A SELLING POINT?
4) mp3 ring tones PUH-LEASE. FANCY RINGTONES MAY AMUSE THE CHILDREN, BUT I DON'T EXPECT THIS WILL CUT MUCH ICE WITH A BUSINESS USER. (IF THIS IS A SELLING POINT, I WOULD MENTION THAT PALMGEAR.COM HAS SOME APPS THAT DO THIS, I BELIEVE.)
5) wider range of drivers, meaning a bigger pool of accessories FAIR POINT, I GUESS, SINCE CARRIERS DON'T WANT PALM TO RELEASE DRIVERS FOR THEIR WIFI CARDS FOR USE ON TREO 650S
6) the ability to have multiple active IP connections (e.g. WIFI and EVDO at the same time) MY TREO 650 (WHEN I WAS USING IT), ALLOWED ME TO USE A BLUETOOTH HEADSET WHILE ON THE PHONE. IS THIS THE SORT OF THING YOU MEAN? (AS FOR WIFI, I CAN'T SEE MYSELF USING THIS ON A DEVICE WITH EV-DO. YMMV.)
7) .Net CF, which will make it extremely easy to port mobile apps I DEFER TO YOUR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE ON THIS POINT. HOWEVER, THIS MAY NOT CUT MUCH ICE FOR THE AVERAGE BUSINESS USER, REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU TECH-HEADS SAY.
8) MS Voice Command. SO?
9) The ability to use larger SD >2GB THIS COULD BE AN IMPORTANT ADVANTAGE. ANOTHER POINT FOR YOU.
10) Access to a large library of modern software HAVE YOU VISITED PALMGEAR.COM LATELY?
11) Access to a large library of modern games YOU CAN'T SERIOUSLY SAY THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE OF INTEREST TO A BUSINESS USER. ANYWAY, HAVE YOU VISITED PALMGEAR.COM LATELY?
12) Full Activesync support (e-mail, calender, contacts etc) THIS 'ACTIVESYNC' YOU REFER TO - IS IT THE BUGGY DESKTOP SYNCRONISATION SOFTWARE THAT SO MANY USERS COMPLAIN ABOUT? OR ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE ACTIVESYNC SOFTWARE WHICH ALLOWS REMOTE ACCESS (AND WHICH COMES WITH MY TREO 650)?
13) In the next few months, push e-mail and A2DP SEE MY PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT WHAT OUR IT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT BLACKBERRY SUPPORT.
14) PlayForSure compatibility CAN'T COMMENT ON THIS - POINT TO YOU, I SUPPOSE.
15) Better bluetooth Support MY TREO 650 HAS A BLUETOOTH RADIO WHICH WORKED WELL (IE, BEFORE I STOPPED USING MY TREO). I ACKNOLEDGE THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE BT1.2. PERHAPS THE PALM 700P WILL HAVE THIS?
16) Better network support (e.g. mapping shared drives) I CAN'T SEE HOW THIS IS A SELLING POINT TO A BUSINESS USER. I DARE YOU TO TELL A BANKER (FOR EXAMPLE) ABOUT 'MAPPING SHARED DRIVES' WITH A STRAIGHT FACE.
17) An actively developed OS with an upgrade path. YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT M$ WILL NOT DISCONTINUE WINMOB - REMEMBER WINCE/PPC/WINMOB/WHATEVER HAS NOT MADE A DIME IN PROFITS AFTER ALL THIS TIME.
18) After you transition, you will have a much wider range of hardware available to you in the future (vs the limited POS offerings). QUE? PEOPLE BUY CONVERGED DEVICES TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TOYS THEY HAVE TO CARRY. OR ARE YOU REFERRING TO SAY GPS UNITS (WHICH, I'M TOLD, WORK WELL WITH PALM OS DEVICES WITH BLUETOOTH)?

I SEE YOU HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE CLUNKY WINDOWS INTERFACE OR THE POOR USER EXPERIENCE. GUI IS EVERYTHING FOR SOMEONE WHO JUST WANTS TO CHECK A PHONE NUMBER, VIEW A DOCUMENT OR SET UP AN APPOINTMENT REMINDER.

SO, HERE WE ARE, AFTER 6-7 YEARS OF EFFORT AND MILLIONS FLUSHED DONE THE DRAIN, M$ HAVE AN OS WHICH IS NOT HUGELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT PALM OS DOES. HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME, MR HANSBERRY.

Is Windows Mobile REALLY a "better" OS than PalmOS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/6/2006 10:25:12 PM # Q
Simony, WM has more solid foundations. Even if it does not have the kind of polish POS users like, its still a better, broader platform.

Lets see - with the Treo 700w you get, out of the box:

1) a today screen.
2) memory protection
3) multi-tasking
4) mp3 ring tones
5) wider range of drivers, meaning a bigger pool of accessories
6) the ability to have multiple active IP connections (e.g. WIFI and EVDO at the same time)
7) .Net CF, which will make it extremely easy to port mobile apps
8) MS Voice Command
9) The ability to use larger SD >2GB
10) Access to a large library of modern software
11) Access to a large library of modern games
12) Full Activesync support (e-mail, calender, contacts etc)
13) In the next few months, push e-mail and A2DP
14) PlayForSure compatibility
15) Better bluetooth Support
16) Better network support (e.g. mapping shared drives)
17) An actively developed OS with an upgrade path.
18) After you transition, you will have a much wider range of hardware available to you in the future (vs the limited POS offerings).

I'm sure there are many more benefits, but the OS situation is certainly better on the WM side. You may be able to get most of these things on the Treo 650, but it will cost you extra. These are all out of the box. POS may have been refined over the years, but its all superficial, in the UI. The woodwork is thoroughly rotten.

Surur

Interesting position, but one might argue that your position that Windows Mobile is "a better, broader platform" is tenuous at best. How do you define "better"? Is a parrotted list of Windows Mobile features (many of which can be replicated on PalmOS make Windows Mobile "better"? Or does ease of use/functionality/UI reign supreme? As you admit yourself, "You may be able to get most of these things on the Treo 650, but it will cost you extra." PalmOS seems to allow users to have their cake (UI) and eat it too (featuritis on demand, though at extra expense).

Windows Mobile is akin to a supermodel with a face that's been permanently disfigured by leprosy. Yes, there may be a nice body, but so hideous to look at. And what happens when you get infected/stricken by ActiveSync? Thanks, but I'll pass.

The real question here is whether or not an OS (PalmOS) that is overreaching it's simplistic origins can be finessed into a more sophisticated OS easier than it is for an OS (WinCE) that started out with grand illusions to be brute-forced (with advanced hardware) and cajoled (with UI redesigns) into being more easy to use. Unfortunately, now that PalmOS has been purchased by Access, we'll never know the answer to that question.

Each of us decides what works best for our individual needs. I'll take a PalmOS CLIE TH55 and a Treo 650 over ANY equivalent Windows Mobile PDA + smartphone combination because - for me - FUNCTIONALITY and UI beat FEATURITIS. Rock. Paper, Scissors... Until Windows Mobile comes up with a true Killer App (e.g. accurate voice-to-text transcription) that's unavailable on PalmOS I'll keep on happily using my stockpiled CLIEs. I do realize that every year, with every advance (VGA screens, Skype, USB host ability, "free" push email, etc.) that Windows Mobile users receive well in advance of PalmOS users, the number of people that stick with PalmOS will decline. The irony is that Palm has seemingly become a willing participant in the Netscaping of the very product (PalmOS) that Palm itself created 10 years ago. Like Lennon said, "Strange days indeed".


TVoR
Copyright, 2006.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/6/2006 11:11:28 PM # Q
Foo Fighter, You were absolutely right about the Treo 700w (and the first to press on this). So, I'm not going to doubt you again when it comes to speculation about future Palm models. (Could it be that you have a 'deep throat' within Palm itself? Don't answer that.)

Correction:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/6/2006 11:22:48 PM # Q
Does a parrotted list of Windows Mobile features (many of which can be replicated on PalmOS) make Windows Mobile "better"? Or does ease of use/functionality/UI reign supreme? As you admit yourself, "You may be able to get most of these things on the Treo 650, but it will cost you extra." PalmOS seems to allow users to have their cake (UI) and eat it too (featuritis on demand, though at extra expense).


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/6/2006 11:28:26 PM # Q
Another point (while insomnia has it's hooks in me).

A number of reviews on the Treo 700w do a head-to-head comparison with the corresponding functions on the Treo 650. (Makes sense, I guess, since it's the leading product.) Those reviews focus on basic functions - phone, email, calendar, contacts, todos, etc - and to a lesser extent on internet, documents, spreadsheets, etc. (Take a look at the treanauts.com 3 part review as an example.)

The point is that the reviews deal with what matters most to users out there in the real world. The reviewers do not seem to be sucked into the 'you can do more' mantra which is so often repeated by the Redmond marketing-types.

This suggests that, in the marketplace, what people want is a converged device which brings together good phone/email functions with good organiser capabilities (and it doesn't hurt to throw in internet access and basic Office-type functions).

As a very broad generalisation, when doing that sort of comparison the Treo 700w mostly stacks up about the same as the 18-month old Treo 650, although in some particular areas the Treo 650 functions are said to be slightly better and vice versa.

So where does this leave the M$ marketing people? Remember, these are the guys who have been telling us, over and over and over again, that Palm units are 'just organisers' and that WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever is so superior because 'you can do more'.

I'll answer my own question: the 'you can do more' marketing angle is no more than that - just marketing - and consumers really focus on the basic functionality. And when it comes to those basic functions, the old Treo 650 (which, so people say, runs on an obsolete OS) stacks up pretty well.

I just find this amazing, after seeing the hundreds of posts here at PIC about the alleged superiority of the Windows Docile.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
PenguinPowered @ 1/6/2006 11:39:12 PM # Q
The real answer to the "is it better" question will be decided by the marketplace. Let's see how sales stack up at the end of '06.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/7/2006 12:43:59 AM # Q
You're right of course - the market will decide.

However, let me give you an analogy. Say you want to mow your lawn. You can buy a 2-stroke mower or a 4-stroke mower. Most mechanics would say that a 4-stroke engine is technically superior - it is smoother, it makes less noise, etc. But a 2-stroke is slightly lighter (which makes the mower is easier to push), it is easier to service, etc. Most importantly, a 2-stroke lawnmower is usually cheaper. They both do the job about the same. So for the guy who wants to cut the grass (and who doesn't care what happens 'under the hood') - we'll, he would normally buy a 2-stroke machine.

So long as Palm OS based Treos are cheaper than the Treo 700w, the average user will likely go for one of those, since (in terms of the functionality) they are much the same.

But the computer industry is so different, I hear you say. (I don't that, but let's assume that's right for the now.) Fine. Don't forget that IBM invented the PC, but IBM lost its market share to the cheaper 'clones', which did the same job, because corporate IT departments didn't want to spend the extra money on IBM PCs. This was despite IBM's name and despite all their marketing about making 'better' PCs.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/7/2006 2:13:20 AM # Q
Here is a nice picture with Mr Gates holding a Treo 700W, in case you have not seen it yet.

http://tinyurl.com/9xkuo

Look at his expression. Perhaps he is worried about the money wasted by those heroes in the WinMob division. Just think how many charities could have put that money to good use.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
twrock @ 1/7/2006 3:26:41 AM # Q
>This 700w with WM should be far superior to 650 with Garnet. It has such a superior OS, right? ;)

A few things.

a) The Treo 700w is quite a poorly featured WM device
b) It has been seriously crippled memory wise by Palm (as they usually do) What were they thinking!?!
c) The UI (which is what most reviewers are complaining about) isn't everything.

If the Treo 700w turns out to be more useful than a 650 it will be the better device. Especially if its more stable. Its already more expandable (look at the WIFI card).

Surur

a) Is this really what all the reviewers are saying? I don't seem to be reading that. Hmm....
b) Actually, the specs look pretty good, ... if you could install a "superior OS" in it.
c) It seems quite important enough for the reviewers to make a big deal out of.

But seriously, I really think this 700w goes a long way to dispelling the myth of "WM superiority". It will be quite fun to see how the 700p stacks up when/if it arrives, as well as any Linux based machine. I'm quite satisfied with my TX at the moment, so for the most part, I'm just sitting back and enjoying the entertainment.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/7/2006 5:54:24 AM # Q

My main point with that list is to show the foundations of the OS. In the same way features can be added to POS devices with 3rd party software, any GUI deficiencies can be corrected by 3rd party software also. Software like Wisbar Advanced will make over a large part of the UI, exposing multi-tasking better to the user, and various today plug-ins will make launching software easier.

The advantages of WM would not be immediately apparent to a superficial review, but many of the advantages listed would appeal to an IT purchaser, and a lot more to a more advanced user. Its not all about marketing.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/7/2006 6:16:11 AM # Q
Perhaps I have misunderstood, but none of the head-to-head comparisons between the Treo 700w and the old Treo 650 seem to focus on the 'foundations' of the rival operating systems. If anything, they seem focus on basic functions like phone, email, calendar, etc. In the head-to-head comparisons I have seen, it seems to all come down to usage issues, in a real world context. They all seem to focus on what it means for the business user.

You can prattle about the 'foundations' of one operating system versus another all you want. However, if the differences have little practical significance in terms of day-to-day usage, then of what importance are the differences in the 'foundations'?

None, I would say, other than in terms of marketing. That is, some gullible people may go in for something which is advertised as a being more 'advanced' even though they have to pay more for the privilege.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/7/2006 6:24:25 AM # Q
You have misunderstood some items on my list, and misconstrued some others. Let me try again.

Advantages that will appeal to a vertical IT buyer.

Memory protection (this means one app can not access the memory of another, and therefore if one app crashes it does not take down the whole device (usually))
Full Activesync support (E-mail, Calender, Contacts) (Exchange Activesync on the Treo only does E-mail and Calender, not Contacts)
Better network support (e.g. mapping shared drives (after your IT guy sets this up, you could VPN into the company and open documents directly from the company server))
An actively developed OS with an upgrade path. (Very important for a company. Only fantasists are still waiting for WM to be dropped)
After you transition, you will have a much wider range of hardware available to you in the future ( I am talking about hardware devices and form factors, like HTC Universal, Samsung i730, Treo 700w etc etc)
In the next few months, push e-mail (Obviously very attractive to IT as a blackberry alternative)
Wider range of drivers, meaning a bigger pool of accessories (self-evident)
The ability to have multiple active IP connections (e.g. WIFI and EVDO at the same time) A scenario where this would be useful is if you used a campus VOIP solution, your Exchange Activesync would go through WIFI, and when you leave the work area your exchange Activesync would seamlessly move over to the EVDO connection.
.Net CF, which will make it extremely easy to port mobile apps (obviously attractive to for vertical solutions, with similar API's to desktop software)
Better development tools (In the form of Visual Studio, the same software IDE used on the desktop, which again speeds development of vertical solutions)
Standardization of camera API (this means software that access the camera would be easily moved from device to device, e.g. Palm to HP, without having to rewrite anything)
Standardization of GPS API (again, this allows a lot of software to access GPS receivers simultaneously)
A hypothetical vertical app would be the old insurance assessor, who would use his veritcal app, written in .Net by the IT department, to take pictures (using the camera api from inside the app)

Advantages that will appeal to a private buyer

Multi-tasking
Today screen (what and how much you place on the today screen is completely up to you. Its been widely copied by other parties, so I dont think it can be that bad).
mp3 ring tones (not just MP3, but wav, midi, PlayForSure music etc etc. No need for $1.5 ring tones)
MS Voice Command (it allows you to control many elements of the device, such as dialing ALL your contacts without voice tags, controlling music playback, checking your calender etc. It WILL actually read out your upcoming appointments if you ask it to)
PlayForSure compatibility (you know, to decrease your gadget load)
Access to a large library of modern software (e.g. Skype?, Minimo (Firefox port)?)
Access to a large library of modern games plus built-in DirectX support (this is a definite advantage to WM currently)
Better bluetooth Support (more profiles e.g A2DP, and better interoperability)
The ability to use larger SD >2GB for your movies and music collection

I hope the advantages are clearer now. I wonder if you could do a similar list for POS.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/7/2006 6:33:12 AM # Q
Surur, I know you proudly call yourself a 'WM Advocate', but your heroic attempt to defend WinMob, regardless the evidence published for all to see, is beginning to look like the actions of an 'apologist' who refuses to face facts. Still, it's a free country, so you are entitled to make yourself look silly, if you wish.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 3:21:57 PM # Q

joe schmo walking into the store off the street will buy the MSFT Palm Treo.

IT Buyers will buy the MSFT Palm Treo for their companies.

the 4-5% off the market who are MSFT-Haters will cling to the PalmOS Treos, but eventually even they will capitulate as innovation, software/hardware/application advances, market share, compatibility all favor MSFT/WM. and eventually, it doesn't make economic sense for Palm to continue both platforms. this is the end-game, gentlemen. get your head out of the twinkie box, beersie.

game, set, match - MSFT.



PalmSource spinoff... into oblivion
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 4:35:15 PM # Q
The real answer to the "is it better" question will be decided by the marketplace. Let's see how sales stack up at the end of '06.


Wrong again (as usual), Marty. "Better" choices are often spurned by the marketplace because of factors that have nothing to do with how "good" each choice is. If Microsoft uses a combination of FUD, marketing, strongarm tactics and tie-ins with its desktop software to shove Windows Mobile down the throats of consumers thereby crushing PalmOS in 2006, does that make Windows Mobile the "better" choice? Of course not. Products don't exist in a vacuum.

PalmOS is dying from its self-inflicted wounds, and the fallout from the Windows Mobile Treos and the loss of control over PalmOS (soon to morph into a phone OS, NetFrontLinux) will do further damage, but the coup de grace will stem from Microsoft smelling blood and moving in for the kill. Palm/PalmOS are about to be Netscaped and there's not a damn thing any of us can do to stop it.

That bogus "split" of Palm into PalmSource and pa1mOne was a REAL bright idea. Make some quick, easy money from gullible investors, but kill the platform. Thanks, Palm...

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 4:44:45 PM # Q
> "but the coup de grace will stem from Microsoft smelling blood and moving in for the kill."

I disagree. In Microsoft's view, Palm OS is already dead, or at least no longer a threat. A lot of folks here still seem to think the old Palm OS vs. Pocket PC war is still ongoing and haven't yet grasped the fact that war ended a long time ago. Palm OS isn't even on Microsoft's radar anymore, and hasn't been for some time. Microsoft's primary target in the mobile space is Nokia and RIM. Palm is now a partner, and that partnership is going to strengthen throughout the year (MORE Windows Mobile devices are coming from Palm.)

Obviously Access/PalmSource seeks to change that with PalmLinux (or whatever the hell it's going to be called), but considering Palm OS is already insignificant in the macrocosm of wireless platforms, I don't see that changing in the future. But we'll have to wait until 2007 to see what becomes of that story.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/8/2006 4:47:19 PM # Q
Surur,

I don't think anyone truly doubts that WinMob has a stronger foundation than FrankenGarnet. But it's still not currently at the point where it can claim to be clearly "better" for day-to-day use.

I had a chance to play with a friend's WinMob device the other day, so I now (sort of) know what I'm talking about. It's little things, like not having a "Close" button that actually *kills* an app, rather than you having to go through a Task Manager to do it.

And despite Palm's best efforts, the 700w is still an inferior phone to the 650 - i.e. losing the nice, large on-screen icons for speakerphone etc. and hiding them all under a menu. I.e. eliminating hardware buttons for the most commonly-used apps. (Why not replace the "home" key with a start button, rather than losing both the calendar AND messaging buttons?) I.e. taking out the "threaded chat" SMS feature that's so damn useful on the 650.

Until such *obvious* silliness is corrected, I'm happy to stick with my Garnet Treo. If Palm take another shot at WinMob though - and it seems rather certain they will after the (fairly) positive reception this device has gotten - then I'll be willing to have another look.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/8/2006 5:02:56 PM # Q
Surur said:
"An actively developed OS with an upgrade path. (Very important for a company. Only fantasists are still waiting for WM to be dropped)"

Are you calling Dr. Opinion - one of the most level-headed, even-handed, insightful commentators on this board - a *fantasist*??!!

No way!!

;)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
AdamaDBrown @ 1/8/2006 5:07:40 PM # Q
Simony said:
M$ sponsored spin campaigns

No, that's what your tin-foil hat told you. In reality, most of the complaintants here are, and have always been, disgruntled Palm users, upset that Palm wasn't moving the ball forward. Even Surur's distaste for Palm is, IIRC, based upon personal experience. I doubt that you can say that. But the point remains that the people who really have an axe to grind are the people who care about Palm--the people who don't, couldn't care less.

Mr Hansberry's flunkies

Again, your paranoia plays you false. If you bothered to look at the eeeevil PPCThoughts, you'd know that nobody there really cares about waging this PR war against Palm OS that you envision. Even Ed Hansberry's more dogmatic posts are incredibly infrequent.

About the differences between the two OSes, I was mainly talking about their respective interface, not the under-the-hood characteristics. This was directed at the people who insist that there's something somehow demonic about the WM interface, despite its relative similarities to Palm OS. On the subject of the underlying tech, even you agree that WM has considerable advancements.

Re: the cries of abuse against Palm loyalists... frankly, for many years the attacks have been primarily heaped on the people who suggest that just maybe Windows doesn't equal Satan. Look at your own diatribe: you claim that anyone who suggests that a PocketPC can "do more" is repeating Microsoft marketing spin, and is probably a paid astroturfer. Yet you ignore things like Skype/VoIP, USB Host, VGA, hardware 3D and video decoding, VGA out, etcetera, things which simply can't be done on a Palm. And don't try to ask who would possibly want to use these things: that's the line which I remember hearing used here on PIC in defense of monochrome screens, Dragonball processors, and the lack of expansion slots. History has proven time and again that features are the future. Even the "zen" that you claim sole right to has long since been replaced by increased features on the Palm side as well.

As for why Microsoft produced WM, it's really relatively simple: they wanted to be in the market. No evil conspiracy is needed for a company to want to produce a product. The fact that a company with deep pockets can spare a few million dollars to let a product build momentum is hardly newsworthy either.

By the way, on the subject of multitasking, of course you can shut down apps you're not using. If you had a single bit of real experience with Windows, rather than rehashed talking points, you'd know this.

Foo Fighter said:

And I have a hunch Palm is going to roll its own Linux/J2ME phone as well as a Windows Mobile Smartphone

I'd have a hard time seeing either of those things. There's not nearly as much reason to go with a Linux/Java or WMS platform as there is with PPC. Besides which, they're already going to multiply their support issues with WM5, anything more would be problematic. I do think they have good reason to build their own Linux-based platform, but not to debut it, not yet. If Access doesn't deliver on a workable Palmish Linux OS, I'd look for a Palm Inc. Linux this time next year.

But I have an itching sensation that tells me Palm is working with RIM in some fashion. I half wonder if we'll see a merger in the works, or if Palm may somehow license their platform to create Palm Blackberries.

There was a rumor awhile back talking about RIM wanting to buy out Palm. I thought it actually had a little credence. RIM is on record that they never wanted to be a hardware company, so they might have been interested in essentially buying Palm, and rolling their hardware together with Palm's to create a kind of PalmBerry/Berrysource arrangement.

I expect Palm and other vendors move away from traditional PDAs. No one is investing in that space anymore.

I'll have to remember to pass that along to Dell. Or companies like Mitac and Medion, who are grabbing marketshare hand over fist with conventional handhelds designed for GPS. Despite the conventional unwisdom, there's still a huge amount of money in conventional devices.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 5:09:29 PM # Q
> "PalmSource spinoff... into oblivion"

Ha! Now that is funny. :-)

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Scott R @ 1/8/2006 5:14:40 PM # Q
Surur, I won't nit-pick your list. I agree with many of the items, and disagree with others. IMO, Visual Studio .NET 2005 is one of the platforms biggest advantages that most of the end-users participating here don't grasp the significance of. It's a robust RAD tool and WM5 devices can play that robust "content". The platform is certainly bloated, but licensees are releasing these devices with 128MB of ROM, so they're going along for the ride without complaining. Such high basic requirements should certainly limit the ability to get these devices into low-end pricepoints, though.

I will disagree with your comment minimizing the difficulty in solving WM5's usability problems via add-on software. When I had my PPC-6700 for a short while, I thought about some of the apps I could write to improve the user experience. There are some new design guidelines in place which limit this. Even ignoring some of MS' wrong-headed UI guidelines still leaves you with some significant issues. Some examples include the two new soft buttons which do more harm than good (both in their practical use and the fact that they prove to be a waste of two otherwise good hard buttons) and the OK button (both on-screen and the building in of that horrible concept into the physical keypad).

In the end though, it doesn't matter how good or bad WM5 or Palm OS is. From where I'm standing, WM has won and Palm OS has lost. I agree with TVoR that these are largely self-inflicted wounds by PalmSource. But the stake has been driven deeper into the heart of the Palm OS by the two-punch combo of palmOne buying the rights to the Palm name and their subsequent announcement/release of a WM5 Treo. With Access/PalmSource MIA, this has created confusion in market such that the non-geek world now thinks that "Palm" has dropped support of its own OS and adopted WM. If the 700p (or other high-end Palm OS smartphones) come out in the next few months, perhaps that perception can be reversed. If an even better all-new platform comes out (either by Palm or someone else), that'll be fine by me. I just want a powerful, usability-focused, shareware-friendly platform. Right now, neither Palm OS Garnet nor WM5 are up to snuff, IMO.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 6:24:14 PM # Q
Usability is an argument that gets bandied about far too much, in my opinion. I and others here tend to focus too much on what we think represents simplicity or ease of use. But real world application often differs from our narrow view. Palm OS is not nearly as "simple" as you might think so, and Windows Mobile isn't so unusable either.

I know this from anecdotal evidence. On a head to head comparison, I would bet money that Palm OS is easier to use...especially for novice users. However, that isn't necessarily the case. My sister is a classic example; she is a typical 45-year old (don't let her know I told you) soccer mom with two 2.5 children, and a two-car garage. Three years ago I gave her my old Palm M505, under the assumption that was the right choice for her. Despite all of my guidance and support she simply could not understand the Palm UI and hated the device. I pre-installed all the best Palm OS had to offer, like iSilo for cutting offline content, AvantGo, some free Palm games, etc. She still hated it.

At the time I chocked that up to a simple case of technophobia, or just plain apathy on her part. Maybe a PDA just isn't right for her...or so I thought.

Then, last year I handed her my old Dell Axim X5 which had literally been sitting in a closet collecting dust. Much to my outright astonishment she almost immediately took to the device, and fell in love with it. I had to walk her through a couple things' that threw her at first, like the difference between the start menu and Programs screen. But once I had done that she actually found Pocket PC easier to use than the M505.

Her biggest problem with the Palm UI was the obfuscated method for "exiting" an application. This threw her more than anything else. I attempted to explain to her that you don't exit an application in Palm OS, you merely go back to the home screen (launcher) by tapping the home icon, but she didn't grasp this concept. It seemed alien to her.

The first thing she took to on Pocket PC was the (x) close button. That immediately made sense to here even without my direction. The Start menu did too, although she didn't initially know of its existence. When first handing her the Axim, she thought the Today screen was the Pocket PC interface. As soon as I showed her the Start menu, everything immediately fell into place for her, in terms of understanding the UI. I still had to point out finer details like Windows Media player and Internet Explorer. But the crucial point is, she understands how to use her Pocket PC, but doesn't know how to use the Palm. Her kids express the same attitude as well. Neither liked the M505, but both love the Axim?

Maybe we tend to obsess over trivial details. Like the battle between Mac and Windows usability. On the surface it seems counterintuitive to use the Start Menu to Shut Down your PC. And yet I have never met a solitary soul who didn't otherwise know to turn off their PC via the start menu.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/8/2006 6:52:22 PM # Q

I agree with both Scott and Foofighter. Usability is not the be all and end all (I mean, manual cars with shift sticks are still very common) but the soft keys in WM5 are a huge step back in a PDA (due to taskbar icons being lost to menu items). I did not and would not yet say WM is superior in usability.

In the end though I can get used to a convoluted menu, but cant add elements such as .Net CF or memory protection to POS.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 7:09:00 PM # Q

i believe that Palm and MSFT will work together to create WM6. i think the guys at Palm are FLATTERED that MSFT has asked them to provide input on WM. look at that video of Colligan and Gates - Colligan was gushing like a schoolgirl. i think this is a WIN for us. We will get the best of both worlds - we will have the WM/CE CORE with more of the Palm usability. Unfortunately for Palm, I think that MSFT is leading the sheep to the slaughter. Palm is unknowingly commoditizing themselves with this move - and they ultimately will give the competition the weapon of their own demise - because the key feature of Palms - usability - will be rolled into WM6 - and all WM licensees will benefit. AGAIN, a WIN for customers - but LOSE-LOSE for Palm in the long run.


by the way - i am seeing a TON of WM TREO Commercials!


RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
AdamaDBrown @ 1/8/2006 7:52:38 PM # Q
Scott R said:
Such high basic requirements should certainly limit the ability to get these devices into low-end pricepoints, though.

RAM and ROM have never really been the problem, either for PPC or for Palm. The problem in the low end is the LCD, battery, casing, etcetera. For PPCs, the problem is the LCD. Bare minimum for WM is (or was) a 240 x 320 reflective color LCD. That's expensive, and keeps the cheapest PPC you can buy around a retail price of $200. If you look at all the sub-$200 Palms, they're low res, non-reflective, and some non-color. You need that, in order to hit that market, and it's just not possible on Windows. Not that you'd neccessarily want to--Compaq tried to build a monochrome PPC back in 2001, to relieve demand for their original iPaq 3650, and it turned into a disaster. Nobody wanted to buy the things.

If flash memory was a price-point issue (not likely given the price drops) you can still fit WM5 into as little as 34 MB of ROM if you try. That's only about 5 MB more than 2003 SE. As with so many other things, it's manufacturer-configured.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Scott R @ 1/8/2006 7:56:25 PM # Q
Kent, the problem here is that we're both focusing on two different aspects of usability. You're example has to do with initial ease-of-use, whereas I'm more concerned with long term usability/efficiency. With a bank ATM, initial ease-of-use is critical. People who have no clue how to use it need to be able to walk up and figure it out quickly.

Whereas, with a device you're going to own and use for a long time (like a PDA/smartphone), long-term usability/efficiency is more important. As you're using the device regularly, you want to be able to do things as efficiently as possible. These "shortcuts" may not always be immediately obvious, but they should make sense such that you can learn them as easily as possible.

Surur's comments demonstrate this quite well. A stick-shift has poor initial ease-of-use for beginners, but it offers long-term efficiency gains. And so, many years after the introduction of the automatic transmission, manual transmissions are still alive and well.

The WM GUI probably does offer better initial ease-of-use advantages over the Palm OS/GUI thanks to its familiar Windows-like UI. But once you've become familiar with either platform, I think the Palm OS GUI still wins in the "tap-count" competition, and I think that day-to-day efficiency is more imporant than initial ease-of-use.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
AdamaDBrown @ 1/8/2006 8:05:36 PM # Q
Foo, your story is dead on target. I've personally converted a few heathens to the use of handhelds. One of them can't be parted from the Tungsten T I loaned him. (Although he uses it mostly for Scrabble.) Another never liked the Palm interface, but eventually found her stride on my old Axim X3i. So many people here just treat anything other than "Palm, all Palm, and nothing but Palm" as a kind of heresy. Few people get the idea that different people might have different preferences.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Scott R @ 1/8/2006 8:45:53 PM # Q
Adama, I never understood why flash ROM was so expensive, but I know that Handspring was eager to drop it, Palm didn't include it on many of their low-end devices, and even Tapwave was considering switching away from using it as they sought to lower production costs. I remember specifically hearing that flash ROM was a relatively expensive component. But now we have these WM5 devices with 128MB of flash ROM, so perhaps something happened in the recent past that brought the cost down significantly?

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
Usability SHOULD matter the most. Here's why it won't:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 9:27:37 PM # Q
Usability is an argument that gets bandied about far too much, in my opinion. I and others here tend to focus too much on what we think represents simplicity or ease of use. But real world application often differs from our narrow view. Palm OS is not nearly as "simple" as you might think so, and Windows Mobile isn't so unusable either.

Take 100 average people in the market for a PDA. Give them each a typical PalmOS PDA and a Windows Mobile PDA and let them figure out how to do basic PIM functions on their devices (remember, that's still the main use for PDAs). Come back a month later and see which device is still being used. Based on the number of people I've seen give up on WinCE/PPC devices compared to PalmOS devices, I'd wager that a lot more (but not all) people would prefer PalmOS. From what I've seen, PalmOS makes sense to more people right from the start compared to Windows Mobile. The more steps needed to do a simple task, the less likely a "regular" (non-geek) person is to do it.

But where PalmOS falls flat on its face is in extending the intuitive PIM experience to other app categories. Playing MP3 should be as easy as an iPod. Email should be simple and robust and the Internet browser should act like a desktop browser. Viewing photos, PDFs, Office documents, etc should all be a seamless part of the OS and file management should make sense to beginners. That's what we should be expecting from Palm - not reheated versions of the original Pilot 1000 (only with color screens, SD slots and basically the same PIM apps)

Despite PalmOS' deficiencies - given the simplistic manner in which people use their devices - it is a "better" OS than Windows Mobile because of its UI. But as soon as expectations of the OS rise (e.g. multitasking) PalmOS shows its limitations. Here's a challenge to the PPC supporters: Take a 1 year old mid level PPC device and compare the out of box experience th a CLIE TH55. Which is "easier" for Jane Average to use? Then load each with all the custom apps + hacks you can think of to enhance usability and functionality. Who wins? I'd bet on the TH55 again.

I agree with both Scott and Foofighter. Usability is not the be all and end all (I mean, manual cars with shift sticks are still very common)

Spoken like a European, Surur. In the USA, manual transmission cars are almost nonexistent outside the (tiny) sports cars segment. People are naturally lazy and prefer simplicity of UI (automatic transmission) over the control and efficiency afforded by manual transmission cars. Unlike Palm, automakers have responded by improving the design of their automatic transmissions, and in 2006 many now offer efficiency, performance and control that is as good - if not better - than the manual transmission models. Never underestmate the laziness or stupididity of a customer - or the ability of an engineer to povercome those obstacles if the incentive is there. For too long, Palm had no incentive to improve the OS and that's precisely why they're now about to get Netscaped.

but the soft keys in WM5 are a huge step back in a PDA (due to taskbar icons being lost to menu items). I did not and would not yet say WM is superior in usability.

I'm amazed that Microsoft could spend so much money and do so many re-writes of WinCE over the years and STILL not "get it". Had they simply licensed Wisbar, Pocket Informant, NetFront or the upcoming Opera ;-O, PockeTTY, TextMaker ;-O, Resco Photo Viewer, etc. and incorporated them into PPC they could have saved Uncle Bill some serious cash. Of course, the .Net stuff might be worth it in the long run...

In the end though I can get used to a convoluted menu, but cant add elements such as .Net CF or memory protection to POS.

But will an average user bother to spend the time to "get used to a convoluted menu" just to get "elements such as .Net CF or memory protection"?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

In reality, this whole argument is moot. The OS that wins will win NOT because it's the "best" but because the company that sells it best undestood how to get its OS installed on more devices than its competition. Period. And guess who that company is?


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/9/2006 1:31:03 AM # Q
I wonder if you could do a similar list for POS.

How about this:

1) It uses HotSync, which allows you to backup your data with confidence (ie, without playing russian roulette with ActiveSync).

Shall I go on?

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/9/2006 3:09:58 AM # Q

Thats a weak start. How about breaking it up between individual and corporate buyers. A longer list would be nice, yes.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Simony @ 1/9/2006 3:29:14 AM # Q
It's getting a little late (early?) here and insomnia is losing its hold on me. I'll try to respond later.

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/9/2006 6:48:12 AM # Q
"But where PalmOS falls flat on its face is in extending the intuitive PIM experience to other app categories. Playing MP3 should be as easy as an iPod. Email should be simple and robust and the Internet browser should act like a desktop browser. Viewing photos, PDFs, Office documents, etc should all be a seamless part of the OS and file management should make sense to beginners"

The most exceedingly irritating thing is that it doesn't require anything truly major from Palm to have all the above things. All they really need to do is improve the Quick Install and Hotsync apps. Quick Install has the installation side down pat; just drag and drop any file, document or program and it's queued for the next sync. Couldn't be simpler.

All they have to do is expand it's capabilities so that you can manage files on the devce from your PC in an easy-to-navigate and easy to understand format. Include a similar app on the device - something like a breed between Filez, Destaller and Softick Card Export, but with a nice easy Palm UI - and you're laughing.

On the device side, MP3 *is* as easy as an iPod. Press and hold the side button. Presto! Music! Where it falls down again is the sync side. I do *not* want to use RealPlayer or Windows Media Player to sync my music. It wouldn't be very hard to add a simple playlist management app to Quick Install, that automatically synced your music collection like the iPod. Why Palm haven't done so is beyond me.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Foo Fighter @ 1/9/2006 9:18:47 AM # Q
> "On the device side, MP3 *is* as easy as an iPod."

I disagree. Music playback on a PDA sucks. The problem is that mobile media players are designed to look and feel like desktop jukebox software instead of mimicking the operation of of dedicated hardware players. Look at what we have today as an example. Pocket Tunes; an iTunes clone designed by hobbyist Palm OS developers. Windows Media Player for Windows Mobile; an even bigger mess that is completely flawed from the ground up both because it looks like the desktop version of the software, and because the playlist navigation is absolutely incomprehensible. Anyone here actually used it? You won't believe your eyes. Here's how it works; to access your playlist from the player interface, you tap on "Now playing", which isn't immediately apparent unless you already knew that. At which point you are taken to the "Now playing" screen, where even more mystery abounds. Want to see your playlist? Well now you have to tap on the playlist icon at the bottom of your screen which suspiciously resembles the same icon in Windows that represents "Create new playlist". That alone is a major usability no no. Why would I create a new playlist to see the ones I already have? Once you do that, you're then taken to ANOTHER screen which FINALLY breaks down your media into categories like My Music, My Video, etc. Something that should be done via the first screen, not the third or fourth.

The sad part is, Microsoft did a fairly decent job on the playback interface itself, allowing you to view album art with your song, which is nice, and even rate the track with just one tap. Unfortunately most Pocket PCs I've used recently don't sound very good. Audio sounds flat and without BASS, partly because good old Microsoft left out one very important feature; an EQ. But even with an EQ, audio still lacks the richness you would come to expect.

Developers are chasing the wrong the squirrel. They should be copying iPod, not iTunes. What we need is a simple, clean, relatively non-graphical interface that alls you to drill right into your playlist. That's how a dedicated MP3 player works; the Playlist IS THE INTERFACE. Notice there are no player buttons on the iPod interface....because it doesn't need them. A PDA doesn't either since it's d-pad already works very much like the iPod's clickwheel.

Another problem with handhelds is that audio quality is inconsistent from device to device. Some models offer good audio quality, while others either have poor quality or weak volume. Partly because of the design philosophy, where PDAs are seen as business devices and multimedia is tossed in as afterthought.

Frankly I don't consider PDAs to be credible media players for anyone other than geeks who want to impress their co-workers. If you want music, buy an iPod. If you want to organize your life, buy a PDA. It's sad that we are now in 2006 and mobile device makers still haven't gotten it right.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

PDAs are PERFECTLY suited to be media players
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 10:07:38 AM # Q
Developers are chasing the wrong the squirrel. They should be copying iPod, not iTunes. What we need is a simple, clean, relatively non-graphical interface that alls you to drill right into your playlist. That's how a dedicated MP3 player works; the Playlist IS THE INTERFACE. Notice there are no player buttons on the iPod interface....because it doesn't need them. A PDA doesn't either since it's d-pad already works very much like the iPod's clickwheel.


Exactly.

Frankly I don't consider PDAs to be credible media players for anyone other than geeks who want to impress their co-workers. If you want music, buy an iPod. If you want to organize your life, buy a PDA. It's sad that we are now in 2006 and mobile device makers still haven't gotten it right.

I disagree. All of the Sony CLIEs I've used give excellent MP3 playback. And the VZ90 + TCPMP = the coolest video player I've ever seen. (If you've ever used a VZ90 you would realize how much wasted potential PalmOS has/had.)

After adding apps like TCPMP, Resco Photo Viewer, Resco Explorer, etc and having Picsel Viewer, a decent MP3 player and NetFront already installed, the VZ90 is a showcase for the idea of PDA as a do-it-all information and entertainment device. Add a VR100 Memory Stick recorder and you can even record programs directly to a Memory Stick as if it was a VCR.

Imagine all those features in a device the size of a UX50. That's what we would have had if only Cobalt hadn't spluttered to a standstill and Sony hadn't pulled out of the market.

PalmOS is all about wasted potential. It wouldn't have taken much to take it to the next level. We we so close to having the perfect PDAs but PalmSource, Palm and Sony snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
hkklife @ 1/9/2006 11:33:24 AM # Q
I have never seen a situation as dire as the "non-iPod" mp3 playing device category. Yet people are buying scores of these things with no end in sight.

By DEVICES I mean not just dedicated mp3/video portable players but also PDAs/cell phones etc.

The lowest end of the market has impossibly cheap/flaky Chinese knockoff cookie cutter devices. These are unusable for any number of reasons. They also don't support anything other than vanilla mp3 playback. Also "oddball" micro formats like mini/microSD and MS Duo are too expensive. SD is the IDEAL format in terms of size, universal compatability & mb/$ ratio.

Then the midrange of the market--think flash-based players from "name" companies like iRiver, Sandisk etc. usually suffers from overly Orwellian software handicapping (you must "check" your music in or use proprietary file transfer software) or unintutive UIs or small, non-expandable flash memory. There's NO excuse for flash players to not have an SD or MS Duo or Mini SD slot onboard for expanding the internal memory. I wouldn't touch a flash-based player with less than 2gb onboard anyway.

Then the upper end of units (HD-based or multiple gigs of flash) are again handicapped by their cryptic UIs, puzzling lack of features (no FM radio) or tragically flawed hard button arrangements. Then there's the whole issue os not being able to be recognized as a mass-storage device w/ no additional drivers or software under Win/Mac or not being able to load/offload mp3s via Win Explorer.

Eventually SOMEONE is going to get it right. Imagine a device with 1gb+ of internal flash storage, rudimentary (think Z22/Zire) Palm OS PDA functionality and QUALITY audio hardware (good amp, solid headphone jack, intuitive media playback). Even at 160*160 resolution such a device could be impressive.

FrankenGarnet, even with its inherent limitations, is still well suited for a media-centric device. I personally don't know an iPod user that uses any of their unit's PIM functions other than playing a few rounds of Breakout. They all cite the inability to add data from the 'Pod itself as the main reason for this.

SOMEONE needs to wake up.

The iPods have lovely build quality, audio quality, and UIs but suffer from a lack of onboard input for PIM data and small/oddly sized screens.

The "jukebox" video players from Creative/Archos/etc are too big/too expensive/unwieldy/unpolished/unintuitive.

The small flash players (Sansa, Nano etc) are too space constrained and, again, have tiny screens.

Palm is the only company that can realistically deliver a <$200 device WITH a color screen, DECENT audio quality, SOLID PDA functionalty and have the screen size/CPU horsepower to play video files decently. If the two year old Zire 31 would do what it did for <$150 msrp then imagine what a similar device released NOW could do, especially if the storage issues were addressed and a serious effort made to give it strong media playback capabilities out of the box. ALl of the tools are there as TVoR said. Someone just needs to package it up nicely!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/9/2006 12:46:37 PM # Q

I agree with Foofighter. The hardware is there, the software is not. Thats rather pathetic really. How difficult can it be to write a good interface? Dont the programmers use their own music playback software?

I also think a PDA is a perfect media playing device. It has:

1) large screen
2) large battery
3) storage expansion
4) updatable software
5) updatable codecs
6) enough horsepower to manage most codecs (vs. not being able to run ogg on the ipod)
7) large touch screen and hard buttons
8) synchronizes with desktop already
9) an excuse to carry it in a business environment.

There is NO reason, accept for pathetic software, that PDA's have not caught on for this purpose. The Toshiba dropped their PDA and now makes Microsoft Portable Media Players. Why is PMP not software I can run on my PDA? There is no good reason why. None at all. And why is no one cloning the interface of popular devices like the Ipod (accept for being sued of course, like the p-pod ;) )

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
twizza @ 1/9/2006 2:23:05 PM # Q
SOMEONE needs to wake up.

The iPods have lovely build quality, audio quality, and UIs but suffer from a lack of onboard input for PIM data and small/oddly sized screens.

The "jukebox" video players from Creative/Archos/etc are too big/too expensive/unwieldy/unpolished/unintuitive.

The small flash players (Sansa, Nano etc) are too space constrained and, again, have tiny screens.

Palm is the only company that can realistically deliver a <$200 device WITH a color screen, DECENT audio quality, SOLID PDA functionalty and have the screen size/CPU horsepower to play video files decently. If the two year old Zire 31 would do what it did for <$150 msrp then imagine what a similar device released NOW could do, especially if the storage issues were addressed and a serious effort made to give it strong media playback capabilities out of the box. ALl of the tools are there as TVoR said. Someone just needs to package it up nicely!

I said this to Palm when they gave me the Z22 to review. It was too easy for them to do this and they wouldnt. If the attention to the MP3 dropping was as simple as the Messaging app on the 650, it would be killer for Palm and audio/PIM folks alike.

They were gunning for a price point, not a new market it seems though.

In my opinion, the Z22 with a 1GB drive and SD card ability sold at $200 would kill for Palm. There arent many buttons on it, making it iPod simple, and basically the features and name would carry it till the price needs to come down. DOnt think the mobile manager line will see that one. If so, then I got some crow to eat.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
hkklife @ 1/9/2006 2:38:36 PM # Q
The sad thing is that Palm could STILL somewhat save face amidst all of this. How? Here's my 4-step strategy:

1. Release a FAT32 driver--OFFICIAL--and thorough tested/debugged so that at least all FrankenGarnet devices can reliabily use 4gb SD cards. A nice bonus would be to extend that to T3 & T|C owners as well.

2. Release a "professional" looking, acting, and reskinned version of PTunes wth solid d-pad support etc. Extending this as a disctounted purchase (or a freebie to TX/LD/650 owners) would be icing on the cake. OR do the next option:

3. Make a serious effort to improve the capabilities of Palm's Media app as well as PTunes. Have a number of playback codecs supported OUT OF THE BOX. In fact, maybe replace Media & Ptunes w/ TCMP (but a more polished version). Throw some $ at Media as well as Blazer & Versamail in the process! Again, offer this gratis or at a discount to existing Palm customers.

4. Follow Twizza's idea to shoehorn 1gb of internal storage (even 512mb would do), an SD card slot and a decent quality amp/headphone jack in the Z22 or the Zire 31. Call it the Z33. Watch it sell VERY well, provided enough of a push is made to advertise its media playback capabilities.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Palm MP3 player - what is Palm waiting for?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 3:05:28 PM # Q
I agree with Foofighter. The hardware is there, the software is not. Thats rather pathetic really. How difficult can it be to write a good interface? Dont the programmers use their own music playback software?

Actually, I don't think that's what Kent is saying. We ALREADY have a bunch of functional apps that play MP3. What we need is a PDA that has dedicated buttons (or buttons that take on a dual function of controlling the MP3 player when the MP3 software is running) so that use of the player is simplified. Using the D pad to control functions is a good idea. Maybe add an extra button dedicated to starting the MP3 player software. This isn't exactly rocket science...

One of the low end Palms should be repositioned as an MP3 player that ALSO happens to be a PDA. How hard would it be to tart up a Zire 31 and turn it into an "iPod killer"?


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/9/2006 3:24:33 PM # Q

The buttons are trivial. On PPC most software allows you to map buttons as you feel like. I'm sure its the same on the Palm side. The rest of the interface (e.g. choosing music, syncing it, setting up playlists etc) is what really needs addressing.

Here's and example of buttons exactly as you describe. http://www.threegmobile.net/gallery0510/o2atom/07_b.jpg

Here's an example of a WM smartphone with dedicated music keys http://www.theunwired.net/media/news/t-mobile_SDA_music.jpg

Its not just the buttons, they have been there all along, its the actual interface thats important.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
PenguinPowered @ 1/9/2006 3:28:18 PM # Q
Welcome to another episode of "market forces at work". There are a zillion purpose built mp3 players on the market. The vast majority of the people who want mp3 players want "cheap, light, small and with long battery life." Those folks won't buy all the extra bits of a PDA just to listen to their mp3s.

Meanwhile, mp3 player just isn't a big marketing point for a PDA, so the PDA manufacturers concentrate on the bits that are big marketing points, and mp3 player functionality is an afterthought.

It all boils down to "adding a 'good' mp3 player wouldn't sell enough units to justify the cost of doing it."

It's another downside of the all-in-one approach. You get a lot of features, but they're all compromised.


May You Live in Interesting Times

The iPalm™ MP3 player: coming NEVER to a store near you...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 3:46:18 PM # Q
I said this to Palm when they gave me the Z22 to review. It was too easy for them to do this and they wouldnt. If the attention to the MP3 dropping was as simple as the Messaging app on the 650, it would be killer for Palm and audio/PIM folks alike.

They were gunning for a price point, not a new market it seems though.

In my opinion, the Z22 with a 1GB drive and SD card ability sold at $200 would kill for Palm. There arent many buttons on it, making it iPod simple, and basically the features and name would carry it till the price needs to come down. DOnt think the mobile manager line will see that one. If so, then I got some crow to eat.

Amazing. At least you tried. Palm really missed out on a incredible opportunity to sell a ton of PDAs to new users that might oterwise never have considered a Palm. Retailers couldn't keep MP3 players in stock over Christmas. It's all about what the market wants and right now MP3 is hot and PDA is not. People are buying iPods and iRivers that are as big as a Zire 31 or 22, so it's not as if size is a issue.

The irony is that Palm:

1) Already has all the parts to create the iPalm and could have the software up an running in a couple weeks.

2) Needs to bring in some new users to the platform and the people buying MP3 players would be a great demographic to capture.

3) Needs money.

4) Wouldn't have to expend much effort to create the iPalm - it's more a matter of emphasizing a different focus for the hardware and then marketing it appropriately.


I wonder what Apple could have done if they could blend the style, scroll wheel and marketing of the Nano with the power of a Zire 22. They could even keep the OSes separate and just graft on a scroll wheel immediarely above the Zire 22's D pad. The Zire 22 already even LOOKS like it could have been a distant relative of the iPad lineup.

I wonder if Pat Horne could PhotoShop a Zire 22 with a scroll wheel...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

CLIE VZ90 hinted at what PalmOS PDAs could become.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 4:11:32 PM # Q
Welcome to another episode of "market forces at work". There are a zillion purpose built mp3 players on the market. The vast majority of the people who want mp3 players want "cheap, light, small and with long battery life." Those folks won't buy all the extra bits of a PDA just to listen to their mp3s.

Meanwhile, mp3 player just isn't a big marketing point for a PDA, so the PDA manufacturers concentrate on the bits that are big marketing points, and mp3 player functionality is an afterthought.

It all boils down to "adding a 'good' mp3 player wouldn't sell enough units to justify the cost of doing it."

It's another downside of the all-in-one approach. You get a lot of features, but they're all compromised.

I disagree, Marty. Selling a modified Zire 22 as an "iPalm" would be mainly about marketing it properly. Put a 1 GB memory chip into a Z22 shell, step back hype it and see what happens. This is the kind of bold (not really) thinking Palm needs if it wants to capture new markets.

Just as Palm was slow to see the smartphone as a new market - half-heartedly releasing the embarassing Tungsten W - they are missing out on yet another golden opportunity with MP3. Personal Media/Video Players is a third market that Palm is missing because they lack the vision (or ability?) to put together a cohesive package with easy to use software and then MARKET the device properly. [If you've ever used a CLIE VZ90 as a video playback device (especially with The Core Pocket Media Player), you'll understand how much untapped potential PalmOS has.]

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
twizza @ 1/9/2006 4:37:48 PM # Q
TVOR I kinda disagree with the title of your last posting:
"CLIE VZ90 hinted at what PalmOS PDAs could become."

But only in the sense that it was ONE direction that PDAs could have become. The UX50 was another direction, as is the Treo, and is the Zarus (sp?).

I think what we are finding out is that while PIC/PDABuzzer/BHers/etc knew what was going on in the simple consumer space, manufacturers were less willing to run with a new fangled idea. We push our devices, and so we know. Heck, we USE our devices, so we know. There has been NO MARKETING of the abilities until recently (somewhat if that) and therefore a generation of PDAs that should have been world changers never made it for the world to see.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/9/2006 4:51:22 PM # Q
One of the worst things I took away from Colligan's recent NYT interview was his lack of vision/daring. At one point, he said that his focus was on "sticking to the roadmap" and if they could just deliver on the roadmap, they could be "so successful".

No, they won't be. Apart from Hollywood, there isn't anything particularly intriguing on their current roadmap. For instance, Palm has absolutely no handle on the youth market - those kids who were unwrapping iPods for Christmas could just as easily have been unwrapping a iPalm (to borrow TVoR's term), if Palm had been smart enough to market the capabilities of their devices properly.

*Don't* focus on boring business stuff like web and email.
*Do* focus on the games, the media features, the semi-revolutionary SMS/MMS (the primary use for a mobile phone nowadays). And include a frickin' memory card with the device already!

It's so very, very frustrating.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 5:02:25 PM # Q
TVOR I kinda disagree with the title of your last posting:
"CLIE VZ90 hinted at what PalmOS PDAs could become."

But only in the sense that it was ONE direction that PDAs could have become. The UX50 was another direction, as is the Treo, and is the Zarus (sp?).

I think what we are finding out is that while PIC/PDABuzzer/BHers/etc knew what was going on in the simple consumer space, manufacturers were less willing to run with a new fangled idea. We push our devices, and so we know. Heck, we USE our devices, so we know. There has been NO MARKETING of the abilities until recently (somewhat if that) and therefore a generation of PDAs that should have been world changers never made it for the world to see.

Yes, 'Toine. One size definitely does not fit all for PDAs and if Palm had visionary leadership they would have experimented with different designs + form factors (not necessarily to the insane degree Sony did!) + jumped on any trends that were obvious like the ones I listed above. It's no coincidence that 3 of the 5 final PDAs Sony released were brilliant designs (UX50, TH55, VZ90). Push the envelope and eventually you'll hit that winning combination.


Here are 8 obvious market segments/price points:

- Basic orgazizer/PDA (Z22)
- MP3 player/PDA (Z22 -> iPalm™)
- Camera/traditional tablet/all-purpose PDA (TH55/Zire 71)
- Tiny clamshell PDA/email/Internet appliance (UX50)
- Palmtop™ (Zaurus-sized micro laptop)
- Basic phone ("semi-smartphone") (the upcoming Treo 200)
- Smartphone (Treo 600)
- Personal Media Player (VZ90)

Had Palm managed to release compelling devices in even 4 of these categories they would be in a LOT better shape than they are now. And the only thing worse than the unimaginative products Palm has been pushing recently is their HORRIBLE marketing. I hope they haven't actually been PAYING someone for their marketing (non)strategy over the past few years.

One of the best ways to have grown the (now-static) Palm market would have been to do it on the sly with an "iPalm". Get the 13 - 20 year olds buying what they think is mainly a cool MP3 player/"video iPod" and then hook them once they start to see all the things Palms can do.


[RANT]And why doesn't Palm ship a tutorial DVD (or at least an MPEG file on the installation CD!) showing newbies all the things Palms can do - complete with close-up screenshots of the PDA in action? They could probably put together a decent video within a day for $1000.[/RANT]

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
hkklife @ 1/9/2006 5:35:00 PM # Q
Note: iPalm has, sadly, already been taken. It was the name of a 3.1megapixel camera from Panasonic. The first consumer digicam, IIRC, to utilize MMC/SD cards. I had one and it was nifty enough even if saddled with horrid battery life & a very weak flash.

It was one of the devices shown at the m500/505 launch along with a slew of vaporware SDIO products that were going to make the upcoming Palms the focal point of a family of SD-enabled media products (SDIO cameras, GPS receivers, wireless cards, modems, memory cards, pre-loaded software etc).

Palm hasn't had a handle on the youth market since....ever? Really, their best effort was the Zire 31 and/or the IIIe SE in the funky clear case. The Michael Jordan m100 is best forgotten. Look at the two way pagers from a few years back, the Danger SideKick (ala Paris Hilton), the cheaper iPods (minis, shuffles, Nanos) and the various LED blinking/blingy Nokia cheap-o cellphones. That's called capturing the "youth" market.

Sticking the roadmap==circling the wagons increasingly tighter.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Palm cracks teen market! Film at 11.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/9/2006 5:43:17 PM # Q
Note: iPalm has, sadly, already been taken. It was the name of a 3.1megapixel camera from Panasonic. The first consumer digicam, IIRC, to utilize MMC/SD cards. I had one and it was nifty enough even if saddled with horrid battery life & a very weak flash.

I wonder how much Matsush!ta would charge to give up the name? If "Palm" was supposedly worth $30 MILLION to pa1m0ne, by my calculations "iPalm" should be worth either $7.5 MILLION or $37.5 MILLION to Palm (depending on how many letters Matsush!ta wants to charge them for)... ;-O

It was one of the devices shown at the m500/505 launch along with a slew of vaporware SDIO products that were going to make the upcoming Palms the focal point of a family of SD-enabled media products (SDIO cameras, GPS receivers, wireless cards, modems, memory cards, pre-loaded software etc).

Someone should put a picture of those "exciting" SDIO peripherals in the dictionary under the word "vaporware". They rank right up (down?) there with all those vaporware Springboards, Samsung smartphones, Cobalt, PalmLinux and Marty Fouts' sense of humor... ;-O

I wish I still had the link to the photo of all those vaporware SD cards. Can anyone here find it?

Palm hasn't had a handle on the youth market since....ever?

Et tu, hkklife?

Really, their best effort was the Zire 31 and/or the IIIe SE in the funky clear case. The Michael Jordan m100 is best forgotten. Look at the two way pagers from a few years back, the Danger SideKick (ala Paris Hilton), the cheaper iPods (minis, shuffles, Nanos) and the various LED blinking/blingy Nokia cheap-o cellphones. That's called capturing the "youth" market.

I STILL think the clear cased Palm IIIe SE was one of the coolest Palms ever released. I was almost willing to put up with its crippled specs (2 MB mask ROM, no FlashRAM) just to get one, but by then I was too spoiled by my 8 MB TRGpro + 32 MB CF card to downgrade. ;-O

Sticking the roadmap==circling the wagons increasingly tighter.

And circling the drain?

TVoR
Copyright, 2006
A Mike Cane production



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
AdamaDBrown @ 1/9/2006 6:20:08 PM # Q
Scott said:

But now we have these WM5 devices with 128MB of flash ROM, so perhaps something happened in the recent past that brought the cost down significantly?

Both. Flash memory prices HAVE come down, a lot. Just look at memory cards as an example--it wasn't that long ago, only a couple of years, that a 512 MB SD card cost upwards of $140. Now they're selling those for $20, and $140 will buy you a 2 GB SD card with cash left over for lunch. This is the result both of technology advancing, and of more manufacturers getting into producing flash memory. So devices with 128 and even 256 MB of memory are cheap in ways that they weren't before.

The other factor is cost cutting. It's not that flash memory was that expensive for those sorts of devices, it's that it was more expensive than PROM, programmable read-only memory. If you want more profit margin, particularly in cheaper devices, you start cutting things like that. Also, since Palm and Handspring were also cutting out ROM updates for their low and mid-range models, the issue was somewhat moot.

Foo,

I disagree with you on the subject of music. I see no possible reason why my handheld can't also be a music player. It's got 5 GB of flash, as I have no need of a 60 GB hard drive. My D-pad and buttons are fine for changing songs, and with a touchscreen I don't need to go though a painful button process to make a playlist. I don't need an FM radio, or anything like that. And it was a video player long before the iPod decided that it wanted to get into the feature creep market.

No offense to the Treo, or any other converged device, but they're not as simple or reliable as an ordinary phone. Everybody's lauding handhelds that are also a half a phone, but you think that a handheld can't also be four fifths of a music player?

Marty,

I disagree that people won't buy a handheld for music. How many people actually KNOW about handhelds? Palm barely advertises ever, and even then usually only the Treos. Neither HP nor Dell advertises at all. Hell, the last time that I really remember somebody advertising something other than a Treo was 2001, an ad for HP's Jornadas.

People hear about and see MP3 players all the time, they see fancy phones, but when exactly was the last time you heard buzz about handhelds? The popular perception is that they're electronic organizers. Yes, they're getting inroads in corporate and government circles, but there's little popular support for them. Yet even a basic handheld does so much more than the iPods or dinky Java phones. Handhelds do almost everything, and they do it pretty well, certainly well enough to replace many of the hamstrung toys that average people buy because they're "cool."

As I write this, I'm flicking back to the thread, and noticing that Antoine and freakout are saying similar things. Well, what can I say, it's the truth.

I wonder how many units you could sell with one good ad campaign: TV, magazines, etcetera. Show a handheld doing movies, internet access, music, games, messaging. Show off all the cool features that most people don't even realize exist. I even have the perfect slogan: "Not your father's Palm Pilot."

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/9/2006 7:07:30 PM # Q
I STILL think the clear cased Palm IIIe SE was one of the coolest Palms ever released. I was almost willing to put up with its crippled specs (2 MB mask ROM, no FlashRAM) just to get one, but by then I was too spoiled by my 8 MB TRGpro + 32 MB CF card to downgrade. ;-O

This is the one I had, until the stupid mask ROM bit me in the back when they released an OS upgrade. It was an HP 568 for me after that.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
freakout @ 1/9/2006 11:00:16 PM # Q
"No offense to the Treo, or any other converged device, but they're not as simple or reliable as an ordinary phone".

Not as reliable, perhaps. I'll give you that. But as simple? The Treo has a superior phone interface to any "real" mobile I've ever used. A full keyboard is not just a boon for messaging - it makes dialing your contacts a lot simpler too. And the on-call screen, with it's easily accessed speakerphone and conferencing functions, is simple and intuitive.

Why they ditched those, nice, big, simple buttons for a hidden menu on the 700w is beyond me, but I'd argue that the Treo's large screen coupled with Handspring's excellent phone interface makes for a much more intuitive phone experience than any "real" cellphone could match.

(Yet. As Voice keeps saying, it can only be so long before the big boys in the cellphone business catch on to the Treo's design.)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

The origins of Surur's Palm hatred:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/10/2006 1:33:15 AM # Q
This is the one I had, until the stupid mask ROM bit me in the back when they released an OS upgrade. It was an HP 568 for me after that.

What about the update was so important that missing out on it drove you away from the PalmOS platform? What I remember of most of those OS (non-TRGpro) updates is that they typically didn't really provide a he11 of a lot more functionality. I remember being especially annoyed when one update rendered a couple of my favorite apps (T9 and an app - who's name I've forgotten - that let users burn a startup screen into FlashRAM) nonfunctional. I never did find replacements for either of those apps...

So did you leave PalmOS just because you felt slighted by Palm, or was there a better reason?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Surur @ 1/10/2006 5:46:55 AM # Q
Actually, looking at this list (http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/palmos35/ ) the update was quite major from 3.3 to 3.5. I recall being excited about it, as it was going to improve the appearance of the OS, by adding a more 3D look (e.g. rounded battery charging icon). It was quite a disappointment to discover my PDA was the only one that could not be updated. All the other ones had flash rom. It was my first PDA, so it did not even occur to me that this would be a problem, and with the clear case it looked nicer than the other ones.

To tell the truth, it was only one element that turned me off POS. After more than a year of using that Palm I wanted a device that could play mp3's and had a colour screen. I was constantly battling with the 2MB memory size (mainly text documents). I also wanted to use WIFI. Palm kept telling me I did not really want these things. Pocketpc's however had colour screens, CF slots (for memory or wifi) headphone sockets and a web browser and media playback built-in. The were much more micro-computer than periferal like.

So in my experience POS has been much more limiting than WM, and for my current use it would still be very limiting. I would not have USB host or Skype or multi-tabbed browsing. I can now understand that POS does answer the needs of the low end of the market very well, for PDA duties. For a micro-computer however a Pocket PC is still best.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
hkklife @ 1/10/2006 9:32:37 AM # Q
I also had the IIIe at that time (not the fancy clear version like you guys) and found it both a huge advancement over my previous Palm Pilot yet also a tad constraining (2mb RAM etc). Truth be told, I never worried about the lack of OS updates since I already had my eyes on the Palm V/Vx by that time...and I ended up going with the VX which was the first PDA I felt I could carry with me at ALL times (its size is still unmatched) with a reasonable amount of data onboard (8mb ram + a few mb of extra space afforded by JackFlash). At the time the IIIe was a good way to get a "real" Palm to the masses buy by making "barely noticable" under-the-hood cost cutting moves. Look at a IIIe---it's basically a Palm III in every way but it was cheaper and, as the SE, more stylish. Look at a Zire/ Zire 21/Z22---those models are basically jokes and can theoretically do more to turn someone OFF of the Palm platform than sell them on it. The lack of a backlight on those white Zires is just criminal.

Funny story: In '01 decided to "donwgrade" by going from a sleek Palm V to the HandEra 330 (I wanted "multimedia" & expansion slots. I had seen one in Sam's club and thought the specs magnificent despite the horrible build quality & the ugly exterior. I went back a few weeks later to get one but...Sam's had quietly pulled all of the HE 330s and sent them back to Iowa (Sam's was the only retail chain carring the HE 330). I gave up in disgust and went down the road to Staples and got myself an m505 and never looked back.

So, in summary, TVoR & I have now identified the critical markets for Palm to tap (pun intended) in '06 in order to stave off extinction!

1. The "bling" teen market (Zire 31 style iPalm mediaplayer PDA)
2. The crucial MILF market (Zire 22)
3. The Palm faithful that will buy anything new from Palm out of desperation (Treo 700p, TX)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: TreoCentral review very detailed and balanced
Scott R @ 1/10/2006 10:18:07 PM # Q
Well it's nice to see that the rest of you are finally on board with the idea of a low-cost MP3-playing Palm OS device. Of course, I talked about this in the forums here *WAY* back in September, 2003 (see here: http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17012). Oddly enough, most of the people responding to that thread thought I was crazy.

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Dear PalmInfoCenter,

VampireLestat @ 1/6/2006 12:53:16 AM # Q
Dear PalmInfoCenter,

I truely wish PIC would post Palm OS related news stories. So far, 1src.com is still a dedicated Palm OS site.



RE: Dear PalmInfoCenter,
VampireLestat @ 1/6/2006 1:46:55 AM # Q
oh yes, and today I tried to use my HP hx2750 at work. It is useless. Too many taps, too slow, and not a clear way of seeing things. And migrating between different types of data screens is akward.

No matter how hard I try to hate Palm Inc, my TX is simply too good to not use. sigh

I am a Palm prisoner.

RE: Dear PalmInfoCenter,
LiveFaith @ 1/6/2006 1:46:43 PM # Q
> I truely wish PIC would post Palm OS related news stories.

They do.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Dear PalmInfoCenter,
EdH @ 1/6/2006 2:53:03 PM # Q
Should they rename the site PalmOS InfoCenter then?

RE: Dear PalmInfoCenter,
SeldomVisitor @ 1/6/2006 3:39:22 PM # Q
RE: Dear PalmInfoCenter,
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 3:27:53 PM # Q

switch to blackberry.

Reply to this comment

Ergonomics Patch

jfme @ 1/6/2006 7:30:58 AM # Q
One of the biggest reasons for the success of Palm is what most Palm OS users love about it.. one button push PIM out of the box. And this feature seems even more important in a phone than a handheld. No one likes to use both hands for a long secuence of button pushes to make a call, look at your calendar, or to check that your tasks are all completed when you are heading to the airport on that last minute business trip.

Bugs are always fixed at the end. However, an awkward PIM interface may require improvement on the WM side. Maybe the exact Palm PIM can be ported into WM as a standard?.

I know there is a lot of good WM PIM third party applications out there but this makes the "do it all out of the box smartphone" miss the point.

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Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!

Surur @ 1/6/2006 1:51:37 PM # Q
So do you suppose Ed Colligan was watching the Godfather one night and took it to heart? You know, the whole, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer?

Perhaps he realized that WM5 was gaining market share at Palm's expense, his OS was growing outdated, and a replacement was still a couple of years away. The only way to stop the bleeding was "partner" with the enemy, but damage the product reputation in the process. So, he decided to build a new TREO running WM5, they'd have a big product launch with the CEO's of both MS and Verizon and announce all these great enhancements that "only Palm" could do, knowing of course they were simply today screen plugins, anyone smart enough could produce anyway. That doesn't matter, nobody else HAD done these earlier, providing a nice in.

Oh the device would be grand, it would attract all sorts of new users to WM5, his primary competitor. But then in the end he would leave one fatal flaw - let's only put 32 MB of RAM in the device. That will make it less stable and cause out of memory errors. Hasn't Palm's marketing FUD for years been PPC devices use too much memory and are unstable? Of course!! When all these new users try the WM Treo they'll see that what they've been saying is true. Users will compare the WM experience to the Treo 650 and find that it IS less stable and DOES run out of RAM. They'll forever be turned off to WM device and Palm will have bought the time needed to catch up.

I think it's all part of Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!


http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45428&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

Surur


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
cervezas @ 1/6/2006 5:32:05 PM # Q
That is tooooooo funny. I know it's that I've been breathing TVoR's paranoia gas too much, but I can almost... ALMOST imagine this crossing Palm's mind at some point. When Colligan and his boys met with the Gates gang in Cannes they probably had every intention of making a Windows Treo that would be a successful hit. Then many months down the road Colligan, Seeley and a couple of his boys are sitting around in the skunkworks bunker looking at some of the top secret early prototypes that had been couriered in. The conversation goes like this:

Mace: Looks like we're going to have to foot for the 64MB of RAM. This thing blows with 32.

Kelly: It's like we always said. Windows Mobile is a pig. Don't worry, I'll tell HTC to up the RAM, boss.

Colligan: Put down that phone. [Strokes the head of the pug under his arm] Jeanne, how're the 650 numbers looking this month?

Seeley: Surprisingly good, boss. If we knew it would be selling this well in Cannes last year I'm wondering if we'd have risked partnering with Redmond.

Colligan: Hmmm... Kelly, tell HTC it's perfect and we need the first 200k shipped to VZW by Jan 6. Mace, get Ballmer on the horn. Tell him Hendrix is golden... and thank him for helping us in our hour of need.

Mace and Kelly: [look at each other in confusion] Uh... ok. Whatever you say, boss...

Colligan: ... and when you're through with that both you guys are fired.

Mace and Kelly: But boss!

Kelly: You fire me and I send pictures of our weekend at the lake to your wife.

Colligan: Kelly stays. Mace, you're out. Go write a blog or something.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
joad @ 1/6/2006 5:38:12 PM # Q
700w memory 128MB (60MB user accessible) non-volatile (http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/specs.epl)

Sadly, taking your reasoning, it appears that Palm is sabotaging PalmOS - the memory in the 700 is much more than what we are enduring in the 600 and 650 devices.

Granted, WinceMob is surely more of a RAM hog than most Palm programs. However, it's likely those users won't see the hourly "out of memory" problems that regular Palm Treo users have come to think are their desktop backgrounds because they are seen so often.

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Surur @ 1/6/2006 5:48:26 PM # Q

The Treo 700w has a 32MB RAM chip, just like my desktop has 512MB RAM, and my Loox 720 has 128 MB RAM. It also has 128 MB storage (flash ROM), like my desktop has 460 GB HDD.

The Treo 700w has EXACTLY the same size of RAM chip as the Treo 650 (unless Palm managed to get magical 22 MB chips). Stop confusing storage and execution. Would you be happy with a desktop these days with a 250 GB HDD and only 128MB RAM?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Surur @ 1/6/2006 6:37:22 PM # Q

David, hilarious. This is not my paranoid theory, but Palm was certainly very stupid to have gone with 32MB RAM. Only the very very low end Pocketpc's (even WM5) have 32MB ram. If we exclude incompetence we can only suspect maliciousness.

I also dont think Palm would have done a WM Treo if they knew then what the sales figures of the POS Treo's are now.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
cervezas @ 1/6/2006 8:41:11 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
David, hilarious.

I thought so. Then I realized that Colligan couldn't fire Michaels Mace or Kelly because they were at PalmSource not Palm. Which is not to say that he couldn't have a little something going with Mike Kelly on the side, but that's another kettle of fish entirely.

Sigh. It's been a long week and I'm getting a little punchy. :-}

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
PenguinPowered @ 1/6/2006 9:13:44 PM # Q
Actually, I liked the bit about firing Kelley and Mace. It fits in well with Skippy's paranoia about the spin-off not being real.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Wake up: The Palm "split" was just a scam that backfired.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/6/2006 10:00:26 PM # Q
Then I realized that Colligan couldn't fire Michaels Mace or Kelly because they were at PalmSource not Palm.


Guess again.

PalmSource was just a puppet regime and had the Reunification of Palm proceded according to Benhamou's original plan, Colligan actually could have been the one pulling the trigger on the Ph.D. of Spin: Mr. Mace.

Which is not to say that he couldn't have a little something going with Mike Kelly on the side, but that's another kettle of fish entirely.

If you knew many Palm/PalmSource employees, you'd realize how common that sort of thing is around here. And you're the last one that should be talking, Beersy. Is your "wife" lonely?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/6/2006 10:00:33 PM # Q
Some of the reviews I've seen suggest that the fixes to Windows Docile introduced by Palm are pretty good. Since Palm spent time and money trying to make this thing work, that doesn't sit well with your thesis that Palm is trying to sabotage this product. Does it?

By the way, the 'Palm' we are talking about is the very same company which you 'WM Advocates' (aka 'trolls') have accused of being inept. Yet here they are trying to do the best they can with a hopeless operating system. Here they are trying to do what your puppet-masters at Redmond can't or wouldn't do. (Unfortunately, you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.)

For Palm's sake, I hope that the sales of this monstrosity go well. Time will tell.

Presumably, M$ will assimilate Palm's ideas into the next version of Windows Docile (if there is one), and allow Palm's competitors to use it too. How ironic.

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
hkklife @ 1/6/2006 10:17:24 PM # Q
Voice;

Two quick questions for ya:

#1
Do *you* think that a 700p is forthcoming as the last hurrah of POS or has the final nail been put in the coffin?

It's entirely possible the three other new Treos previously alluded to for '06 could be:
A GSM 700w, the GSM Hollywood (running WinMob) and the misreably rehashed Treo 600-esque Lowrider cheapie running Garnet.

#2
Your ETA for the other shoe to drop in regards to the "big" PalmSource/Access story? Sometime yet this quarter?


For the record...
I am starting to be increasingly sure that final POS straggler releases will be the Lowrider Treo ( a rehash), another warmed over T|E variant and the Garmin iQue that you've already commented on. What a miserable note for the platform we've loved for a decade now to go out on.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Foo Fighter @ 1/6/2006 10:20:39 PM # Q
Actually, I wouldn't entirely disagree with Voice on this issue. As paranoid as it may sound there is some slight credibility. PalmSource's refused to issues licenses to soliciting vendors, including big names like Toshiba (and possibly Dell). And Mike Mace himself commented on PDA Buzz's forums (before the site imploded from reader revolt) that PalmSource didn't want to "create an environment where hardware vendors competed and earned less margins", so they "selected" whom would get to license Palm OS. A statement which I and other Buzzers took to mean that PS was essentially covering Palm's ass. That hardly sounds like the actions of a newly spun-off company that earns revenues from licensing its OS, does it?

Now, that said, I'm not claiming that the split was a fraud, but clearly there was some collusion at work, at least in the early phase of the transition. Up to the point of PalmSource's acquisition that wasn't the case, and you could easily see that from Palm's independent posture, like refusing to adopt Cobalt...and more recently its adoption of WinMob.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
hkklife @ 1/6/2006 10:26:52 PM # Q
Simony;

Well-stated and, sadly, all too accurate.

A good real-world analogy to this one is the local mom'n p(alm)op hardware store/builder's mart selling oodles of supplies & materials to the contractors building the new shopping emporium down the street. Business is brisk & mom'n p(alm)op rejoice. Then they wake up one day to notice a Wal-Mart & a Home Depot have been built across the street. Mom'n P(alm)op either throw in the towel then & there or else get slowly squeezed to death by the same structures they supplied materials for. Ironic.

For mom'n p(alm)op's sake I hope the sale of materials for the monstrosities went well. Time will tell ;-)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
hkklife @ 1/6/2006 10:33:54 PM # Q
Foo;

Also well-stated. I'd pin the cessation of the collusion between PalmOne & PalmSource somewhere around the time of the launch of the T5/Treo 650. Palm was desperate for something new and all they could muster was a rehashed T|E/Treo 600 with a miserable implementation of NVFS. Their utter inability to hack Garnet "properly" was painfully evident. Had they had the "insider assistance" of PalmSource the T5 & Treo 650 probably wouldn't have shipped in such a feeble state.

But the spin-off was madeo ffical in, when, September '03 or so? Clearly the first 1/2 year of the split and the time preceeding it was filled with much hanky-panky by both parties. It's arguable Palm couldn't have even gotten the Treo 650 out in the condition it launched in without assistance from PalmSource.

Also, Toshiba & Dell weren't the first "names" to be refused POS licenses. IBM's Workpad rebadging license was terminated around the same time as well IRRC. And remember back in '99 or '00 Compaq (before they were assimilated by HP) was even showing a prototype Palm-based unit? Somehow they were never officially inked--maybe another Yankowski special??

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
cervezas @ 1/6/2006 10:49:08 PM # Q
[shaking head]

I realize you guys are just speculating, but sheesh. With the amount of evidence you have to come to the conclusions you do sometimes I wouldn't be surprised to find you counting the number of times Colligan blinks during an interview to calculate the number of Palm OS Treos he's planning to release. "Watch! If he rubs his nose while he answers this next question it means Palm was still colluding with PalmSource in 2004. Yep, there he goes!"

You guys need to get out and see a little of the real world. It's much less predictable and more interesting than the one you imagine.

Foo Fighter, you do make an interesting point about limiting licensees but at the time of that statement weren't we early into the Cobalt cycle, i.e. in a time when PalmSource was still getting lots of interest in that? In that situation limiting the number of licensees (and even making promises that they would do so) was a way of attracting new licensees who were more interested in diversifying their products than paying royalties for something that could become a "commodity" OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 3:19:07 PM # Q

either you become the commodity OS or you get eaten by the commodity OS. you can't change the laws of ecomomics and the free market.

one mistep after another.



RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
PenguinPowered @ 1/8/2006 3:25:39 PM # Q
econnomists are changing the "laws" of economics all the time, just as legislators are legislating the rules of the "free" market.

But that aside, even under a free market there's no specific "law" that requires a single OS.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 3:28:52 PM # Q

and look at what that "protectionist" strategy has gotten them. the company was sold off to japan, 1 or 2 real licensees left, and the flagship licensees defected to the competitor.

your boys at PSRC really did their homework, penguin boy. McVeigh had the shortest executive career since that pope that got poisoned.



The end.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 3:41:11 PM # Q
McVeigh had the shortest executive career since that pope that got poisoned.

McVeigh was brough in specifically to prepare PalmSource for a buyout.

At this point, PalmOS is toast and even the dumba$$ fangirls like Kirvin are finally starting to realize this. There's no Santa Claus, Timmy.


PalmOS devices will be around for years to come, much like how Macs still serve a niche market.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Sneak preview of TVoR's long-awaited "2006 Predictions"?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 4:38:30 PM # Q
Voice;

Two quick questions for ya:

#1
Do *you* think that a 700p is forthcoming as the last hurrah of POS or has the final nail been put in the coffin?

PalmOS will be around for a while to come. A lot of longtime PalmOS users have purchased Treo 600/650 in the past 2 years out of desperation, simply because Palm didn't have any other models worthy of upgrading their Vx/m505/Dungsten E/Tungsten T, etc from. The loyalty and size of the PalmOS market is not something that should be discounted. 1 or 2 mainstream manufacturers and 1 or 2 niche companies could continue to make a comfortable living for YEARS to come providing PalmOS devices to The Palm Faithful. Why abandon the well until it dries up completely? Remember: Palm seems to know a thing or two about squeezing that last drop of milk out of their withered-up cows

Unfortunately, the Cobalt Catastrophe has turned PalmOS into ZombieOS - the Dead OS Walking™. Had Palm/PalmSource not frittered away THREE crucial years on Cobalt and had Palm not played their corporate Enron-style shellgame with PalmOS, they might have been poised for a renaissance in 2006. But they did, they did and they aren't.

It's entirely possible the three other new Treos previously alluded to for '06 could be:
A GSM 700w, the GSM Hollywood (running WinMob) and the misreably rehashed Treo 600-esque Lowrider cheapie running Garnet.

Ask yourself these questions:
- how much improvement in Handspring's Treo 600 design has Palm made in the past 2 years?
- how many of Palm's devices have been released with showstopping bugs in the past 5 years?
- how much money does Palm spend on R+D and QC compared to Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, etc.?
- how long will it take for the big cellphone companies to "borrow" all the good ideas Palm - I mean Handspring - came up with and incorporate them into their phones (along with better style, features, reliability and price)?

Palm's only hope for long term survival was to have regained sole ownership of PalmOS and been ready to ship PalmLinux phones in 2 or 3 form factors by now. Last I checked, Palm had failed on all 3 of these crucial tasks.

#2
Your ETA for the other shoe to drop in regards to the "big" PalmSource/Access story? Sometime yet this quarter?

Already happened. I'd suggest you ask my old pal, Dianne "Judas" Hackborn for the sleazy details. Or maybe a former PalmSource employee will register under a pseudonym (Linda_Lovelace"?) and spill the beans. Or you could just ask around in the right places. Or you could wait for my "2006 Predictions" article. ;-O


For the record...
I am starting to be increasingly sure that final POS straggler releases will be the Lowrider Treo ( a rehash), another warmed over T|E variant and the Garmin iQue that you've already commented on. What a miserable note for the platform we've loved for a decade now to go out on.

This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

I think think the whimpering will go on for a lot longer than that. As long as there's a buck to be made off The Palm Faithful, we'll keep seeing "new" models. (But were the TE˛, T5 and TX REALLY "new"? Hmmm...)


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Scott R @ 1/8/2006 6:17:55 PM # Q
Personally, I find these theories that the Palm/PalmSource split was a contrived short-term money-making grab to be silly. I think the original explanation made sense. PalmSource wanted a diverse set of licensees and having a direct competitor to those licensees (their hardware division) kept potential licensees away. Their decision to be "picky" about whom to license their OS was an interesting notion. They figured they could have a bunch of licensees who didn't directly compete with one another (Palm and Sony could have PDAs, Fossil could have watches, Dana could have laptops, etc.). That turned out to be a bad move for them as it put too many of their eggs in one basket. And as the PDA market began to decline and they lost a couple of their licensees, they were left with just one biggie: Palm.

Their problems were worsened by their immense capacity to waste money. Take a look at some of those dollar figures that they were getting from Palm. That's a whole lotta money. And what were they doing with all that money? Heck if I know. They let their licensees do most of the R&D for them. Finally they made a bold move with Cobalt. Again, wasted money in purchasing the Be IP. Was it really worth that much? In hindsight, the answer is obviously no, but it seemed like a lot of money to me even back then. And there was the high-priced office space they later had to move out of at a loss. They then decided to go whole hog into Linux, likely using the same mindset as they held to previously (why do our own R&D when we can let others do it for us for free?).

I know I'll get bashed for this, but I personally believe they would have been better off sticking with Garnet and improving upon it. Let's see...fold in the Handspring-developed 5-way navigation functionality, build in support for multiple simultaneous Bluetooth/network connections, write some Wi-Fi drivers and/or work with Wi-Fi chipmakers to get them to do it, add support for storing any filetype (and write a simple File Explorer), build-in support for MP3 and provide a bare-bones MP3 player, build-in font support, and standardize the APIs so that licensees, developers, and end-users could have a stable OS that was easy to develop for. Not rocket science and a lot cheaper than what they've squandered their money on (with nothing to show for it) over the last two years.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 7:04:15 PM # Q

>Their problems were worsened by their immense capacity to waste money. Take a look at some of those dollar figures that they were getting from Palm. That's a whole lotta money. And what were they doing with all that money? Heck if I know

check the bank accounts of Nagel, Gasse, et al.



Come on now, Timmy!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 7:55:33 PM # Q
Personally, I find these theories that the Palm/PalmSource split was a contrived short-term money-making grab to be silly.

Timmy, hate to shatter another one of your beliefs, but Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

I think the original explanation made sense.

Only if you're gullible, T-T-Timmy.

PalmSource wanted a diverse set of licensees and having a direct competitor to those licensees (their hardware division) kept potential licensees away. Their decision to be "picky" about whom to license their OS was an interesting notion.

"Interesting"? INTERESTING? T-T-Timmy, why would a "completely independent" company - who's only real source of income is licensing its OS - turn down companies wanting to license its OS? Hmmm... What if that company wasn't really "completely independent"? Do ya think?

They figured they could have a bunch of licensees who didn't directly compete with one another (Palm and Sony could have PDAs, Fossil could have watches, Dana could have laptops, etc.). That turned out to be a bad move for them as it put too many of their eggs in one basket. And as the PDA market began to decline and they lost a couple of their licensees, they were left with just one biggie: Palm.

Doesn't sound like the business strategy of an OS company trying to be a profitable, self-sufficient company, Timmy...

Their problems were worsened by their immense capacity to waste money. Take a look at some of those dollar figures that they were getting from Palm. That's a whole lotta money. And what were they doing with all that money? Heck if I know.

T-T-Timmy, have you ever looked at how much $$$ has been paid out to PalmSource executives over the past couple of years? Truly shocking. And if you only knew how much dead wood they had "working" there (especially before the "purge" last year)...

They let their licensees do most of the R&D for them.

Just like Palm always used to do. Why change now, Timmy?

Finally they made a bold move with Cobalt.

Actually, Cobalt started before the (apocryphal) PalmSource spinoff, Timmy.

Again, wasted money in purchasing the Be IP. Was it really worth that much? In hindsight, the answer is obviously no, but it seemed like a lot of money to me even back then.

If you had been an old friend of JL Gasse (Be's owner) from his Apple days and you were now an executive at Palm, wouldn't you want to float your old pal a $10 MILLION payoff for his (then-worthless, disgraced) company, T-T-Timmy? I know I would. If you grease my Palm, then I'll grease your's later. And then we can go on and grease the a$$es on all those poor PalmSource investors...

And there was the high-priced office space they later had to move out of at a loss. They then decided to go whole hog into Linux, likely using the same mindset as they held to previously (why do our own R&D when we can let others do it for us for free?).

Ah soooo, Grasshopper...

I know I'll get bashed for this, but I personally believe they would have been better off sticking with Garnet and improving upon it. Let's see...fold in the Handspring-developed 5-way navigation functionality, build in support for multiple simultaneous Bluetooth/network connections, write some Wi-Fi drivers and/or work with Wi-Fi chipmakers to get them to do it, add support for storing any filetype (and write a simple File Explorer), build-in support for MP3 and provide a bare-bones MP3 player, build-in font support, and standardize the APIs so that licensees, developers, and end-users could have a stable OS that was easy to develop for. Not rocket science and a lot cheaper than what they've squandered their money on (with nothing to show for it) over the last two years.

Actually, you're right, but you're forgetting that they actually thought Cobalt was going to be a resounding success. Of course, once it became obvious that Cobalt was going to be over a year late, PalmSource should have diverted some resources to cleaning up PalmOS 5, but they kept deluding themselves that Cobalt would be ready Real Soon Now. Not to mention the fact that by then PalmOS 5 has been hacked up so much that even one more hack might cause it to EXPLODE, killing whatever unfortunate codemonkeys that happened to be in the cage working on it... Kinda hard to recruit codemonkeys to work on that kind of dangerous project. Unlike Marty Fouts, most codemonkeys don't work for bananas and they tend to start throwing feces when their fur gets singed by OS explosions.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 9:34:38 PM # Q
> "Actually, Cobalt started before the (apocryphal) PalmSource spinoff, Timmy."

Yes, and it's interesting to witness how Cobalt's roadmap was so completely misguided even PalmSoure forgot where the OS ultimately fit within its own platform strategy. In fact, if you go way way way back to the beginning, long before Palm split into two, you see a true comedy of errors at work in terms of the synergy between Garnet and Cobalt.

Originally, Palm OS 5 (before it was officially named Garnet) was designed as an interim platform. Garnet's entire raison d'ętre was to migrate all those old legacy 68x applications over to the ARM architecture. But Garnet itself was originally designed purely as a transitional platform on the road to a"next generation" operating system. That OS (which became Cobalt) would replace Garnet. That was always the intention, by design. Until PalmSource came into existence. Then the roadmap changed.

Then it was..Garnet for low-end devices. And Cobalt for high-end devices. The very same OS you're using now on your Treo and TX was designed for nothing more than a common Zire 31. And yet there it is.

Then of course PalmSource changed its strategy (if you could call it that) yet again. This time the company claimed it would target Garnet for PDAs, and Cobalt for Smartphones. Then later still, if I'm not mistaken (it's hard to keep track by this point), they said Garnet would be target at Smartphones, and PDAs as well. Which is confusing considering that role was designed for Cobalt.

The bottom line is that PalmSource really had no cohesive strategy and was simply bluffing its way through the game. They were doing largely what Palm is left to do now. Continue along with Garnet until the next OS comes along. What PalmSource didn't count on was Cobalt being a complete failure, which played a key role in the disintegration of the platform. Licensees started dropping off like skin from a leper. And that's where we've been ever since. Now we have one shot...just one shot left in the barrel. And it's a long shot. Will this be the shot heard round the world? Or another blank?

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
PenguinPowered @ 1/8/2006 9:46:29 PM # Q
You can stop trolling for Hackborn, Skippy. I doubt she'll be coming back here to chat with you any time soon.

May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Gekko @ 1/8/2006 10:29:11 PM # Q

it was all a shell game. you had curtain 1, 2, and 3. and when Nagel was forced to open the curtains, there was nothing there. he danced and danced and danced but in the end, there was nothing there. that son of a bitch fooled you all once again.

Cobalt was Copland Redux. and now it's too late.


RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/8/2006 10:43:10 PM # Q
Fine.

And in the meantime, Palm has produced something like the Treo 650, which apparently has proved to be a run-away success (although Gartner doesn't seem to agree) and won a bag full of 'best of' tech awards. This is something which is runs an OS which, so you keep telling us, is hopelessly obsolete and broken down. Yet it has eaten the lunch of anything produced by any WinMob licensee - who (as you say) use a technically superior OS.

Why is that?

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
freakout @ 1/8/2006 11:00:53 PM # Q
"Personally, I find these theories that the Palm/PalmSource split was a contrived short-term money-making grab to be silly."

I did at first too. Then Palm tried to buy back PalmSource. What more evidence do you need?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
LiveFaith @ 1/8/2006 11:08:59 PM # Q
The 650 is a runaway success, but let's not forget that Palm should get little credit even thi their name is on it. The vision and real work was done by tiny Handspring with the 600. The BT + Hires upgrade path was obvious for anyone.

Saying Palm created the runaway is like saying Ford should get credit for creating safest cars in the world (Volvos) because their the true owner.

But, I certainly agree with the OS commment. It's amazing that a gazillion "smartfones" run WinMob, yet the Treo is praised for it's usability. Hmmmm. Enter WinMolasses with 5X the total memory of the 650 and it's cumbersome and limited usably, yet the apologists cry "weak hardware" and "the market decides". The market has "decided" on Mac OS too, but you can't pry it from those Apple users hands yet.

Ohhhh how I hope we don't lose the Palm OS to this!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

The Tortoise and the Hare... Will Palm wake up in time?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 11:22:38 PM # Q
Fine.

And in the meantime, Palm has produced something like the Treo 650, which apparently has proved to be a run-away success (although Gartner doesn't seem to agree) and won a bag full of 'best of' tech awards. This is something which is runs an OS which, so you keep telling us, is hopelessly obsolete and broken down. Yet it has eaten the lunch of anything produced by any WinMob licensee - who (as you say) use a technically superior OS.

Why is that?

Good question.

In my opinion, the HANDSPRING Treo 600 was one of the 4 most significant PDA designs ever produced (the others being the original Pilot 1000, the TRGpro and the CLIE UX50) and I think it is arguably the best example of engineering excellence ever seen in a PDA. Period. The hacking Handspring's engineers had to do on creaky old PalmOS to stuff in their BRILLIANT one-handed UI and the telephony features was truly amazing. Even the form factor was remarkable given the performance requirements + battery technology available at the time of the degign. The PALM Treo 650 is actually nothing more than what the Treo 600 was originally supposed to be. The main difference - the hi res screen - was omitted from the Treo 600 as a compromise (expense) and Bluetooth could have easily been included on the Treo 600 if Handspring had been willing to deliver a spare-no-expense smartphone. Unfortunately, Handspring was pretty much broke before they finished the Treo 600 and could barely afford to get the phone into the production much less spec nice parts. The crappy parts selection and horrible build quality are merely evidence of Handspring's dire financial straights at the time: they simply couldn't afford to have a better quality device made.

The fact that the Treo 600/650 is STILL considered the benchmark for smartphones - almost 2 1/2 years after it was released - is more a reflection on how far ahead of their time Handspring was. The Treo 600/650 succeeds DESPITE being hobbled with an anemic OS + primitive underpinnings so horribly unsuited for use in a modern cellphone. The fact that Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, and HTC still haven't topped the Treo 600/650 is amazing, and a tribute to the Handspring engineers. However, while Palm basically stood still over the past 2 years, the competition has been gradually catching up. With design cycles roughly 2 or 3 times as rapid as Palm's, the traditional cellphone manufacturers will likely surpass the Treo 600/650 design within a year. Then what does Palm do?

Also, don't forget that a lot of the Treo sales success can be attributed to the fact that it has been the only model Palm offers that many longtime owners of traditional tablet PalmOS PDAs have felt is worth upgrading to. Unless Palm can sell the Treo as a business device (i.e. to people that previously wouldn't have bought a PalmOS PDA), Palm's Treo market will become static. In fact, it may even collapse once the upgraders have all upgraded, unless Palm can start coming up with some more convincing reasons to move from a Treo 600/650 other than square buttons, a shorter antenna and support for a high(er) speed data connection.

Yes, the Treo has eaten the lunch of all Windows Mobile challengers up to this point. But - like the hare in the story "The Tortoise and the Hare", after "eating the lunch", Palm went to sleep while the Windows Mobile Tortoises kept plodding on. If I recall, in that story, by the time the Hare wakes up its too late and he loses the race. As far as I can tell, Palm has been sleeping since Handspring handed them the baton. Who here thinks Palm will wake up before Gates can dine on roasted rabbit for "lunch"?


TVoR
Copyright, 2006
A Mike Cane production.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/9/2006 12:08:42 AM # Q
Breaking news: I have received an email from Palm offering me a deal on the Treo 700w. (I guess that's because I'm a registered user of the Treo 650, even though I don't use it anymore.) The deal is that if I upgrade from an older Palm device, then they will throw in a BT headset for free.

So much for the Treo 700w being aimed at a different market segment.

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
hkklife @ 1/9/2006 12:38:45 AM # Q
They could care less about who buys the 700w as long as SOMEONE buys it. Remember, the old Palm legacy/customer loyalty is OUT THE WINDOW under the new regime. Palm's new M.O. is to sell anyone-no matter how-a new device at least 1x annually. I mean, just LOOK at the prices they are charging for a 700w (full retail) while under a current contract. Are they MAD? I can buy a lovely widescreen laptop w/ a CD or perhaps even a DVD burner for $6xx and change they are charging for a 700w full retail!

Since the 700w is likely the biggest "name" release Palm has up their sleeves for '06 (the 650 was a carryover from '04 and the TX was the only really other big deal in '05 and IT was a rehash) they will continue to push it to anyone and everyone possible. Current POS owners & users be dammed!

On a related note:
I played with a 700w today at the local VZW store extensively. First the good:

I prefer the darker costmetics of the casing. It looks MUCH more professional than the 650 (all versoins). BTW, anyone ever see the special cheap-o 650 custom branded for Earthlink Wireless (Office Max sells 'em-It looks atrociously cheap)? Back to the 700w: Antenna seems a bit smaller than the 650 and I like the slightly thinner formfactor and tapered bottom. I also like the new key shape but the two soft function buttons under the screen were a little thin. Screen looked decently bright but a bit coarse (as expected). It was't as "blue" as the 650's screen. Key brightness seemed improved as well. Graffiti 1 IS present and worked flawlessly if a *bit* laggier than what I recall on my T|T. That right there would be a strong motivator for me to consider the 700w (no kidding). Does anyone know why Xerox hasn't tried to take on M$ for using what is essentially G1 strokes under WinMob? Does M$ pay Xerox royalties?


Now the bad:
The OS/UI were a disaster and I saw the "Palm improvements" here & there. It didn't seem as snappy as my TX or the adjacent 650 in informal testing. The touchscreen seemed a bit softer than the 650 or my TX. The salesman never missed a beat when telling me that the 700w was easily worth the $200 premium over the 650, it had a "larger and higher dpi screen" and was easier to use than the 650 because "Everyone runs Windows at home". He also said the battery would last longer because "...Microsoft knows how to write power-management software and the actual battery capacity is larger." Oh, and he said VZW is terminating the 650 by March and they will never carry another POS device (that's true IMO) because people prefer M$ & Blackberries.

With whoppers like that Verizon is going to sell TONS of 700w's to Joe Six-Packs everywhere!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/9/2006 12:42:16 AM # Q
Ok. Ok. I forgot about Handspring.

But Hanspring were using a hopelessly broken down and obsolete OS (so the WM Advocates say) too.

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/9/2006 1:00:00 AM # Q
Maybe, just maybe, Verizon will have to drop their prices on these things once other carriers gat them too. Did I read somewhere that Verizon has some sort of 6 month 'exclusivity' deal going?. Anyway, maybe corporate IT departments will be able to negotiate 'fleet' discounts from Verizon.

If not, then a corporate IT manager may have a difficult decision to make - do they:

a) pay a $200 premium for a Treo 700w (with an allegedly superior OS); or

b) do they go with a Treo 650 (which has an allegedly broken down and obsolete OS) which pretty much does the same job?

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
hkklife @ 1/9/2006 1:25:13 AM # Q
If I were the corporate IT dude I'd definitely go with the 700w. The "impressive" specs look better to the powers that be, no one ever got fired for buying M$, and, after all, that $200 ain't coming out of my pocket.

With my personal $ I'd go with the Treo 650 anyday, even with the horrendous lack of RAM.

Ideally, Verizon would allow PDA tethering & full BT on their phones...and Palm would stop crippling their BT stack for CDMA phones and I'd (again, personally) go with a TX + V3c combo for the time being. Yes, Gekko, fumbling with two devices is still better for ME at this point in time. A year or 18 months down the road will be a different story. However, it doesn't look like Palm or VZW will relent anytime soon on their tethering policy since they ONLY want to sell as MANY NEW TREOS as possible. Decision, decisions...being a VZW customer is a true blessing & a curse more often than not.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/9/2006 1:42:24 AM # Q
> that $200 ain't coming out of my pocket.

Our IT people have that same attitude.

Which is why we give them budgets.

Also, major capex items (ie, above a certain threshold) have to be dealt with by a 'business case' (as we call it). The 'business case' is paper prepared by our IT director, and it normally includes a comparison between alternative proposals. The decision is made by a sub-committee - our IT director does not get a vote on that committee. One of the members of that committee has told me that, about 80-90% of the time, they accept the IT director's proposal. Almost always, the committee accepts the IT director's recommendation on the technical issues, but they always look very carefully at the numbers - sometimes, an independent management consultant is brought in to advise on the costings. (Our decision to go into Blackberry was handled in this way.)

We have these elaborate procedures because IT is the 3rd biggest expense line item in our business.

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
twrock @ 1/9/2006 1:56:30 AM # Q
"Personally, I find these theories that the Palm/PalmSource split was a contrived short-term money-making grab to be silly."

I did at first too. Then Palm tried to buy back PalmSource. What more evidence do you need?

Tim, you're being sarcastic, right? Please tell me you can see a reason for Palm to try to buy back PalmSource at that point other than the "grand conspiracy theory".

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Simony @ 1/9/2006 2:53:36 AM # Q
> no one ever got fired for buying M$

That's what the WM Advocates keep telling us. But, if that's right, how come the Blackberry seems to be so successful, stacked-up as it is against companies which offer WM devices?

BTW, they used to say that 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'. M$ shattered that myth once and for all. Have they erected another myth in its place, I wonder?

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Surur @ 1/9/2006 4:40:54 AM # Q
Interesting stuff there from the Verizon shop. What does that say about the availability and provenance of the Treo 700p.

Before people get to caught up in the obvious superiority of the Treo, we need to remember that there are other devices that are also doing very well in the market. MS smartphones (phonecentric device) sell at least equivalently to the Treo, and PDA centric phone devices such as the HTC Magician (smaller than Treo) (http://images.tigerdirect.ca/SKUimages/medium/L420-7054-main.jpg ) has been especially successful. The Magician was so successful a whole next generation of devices were designed around it, including the HTC Wizard/Apache ( http://news.mobile9.com/images/mda-iv.jpg ), the Quanta O2 Atom (even smaller than the HTC Magician) ( http://www.pdamobiz.com/forum/uploads/image2/9FAB1_06b8xq.jpg ), the HTC Prophet ( http://www.bargainpda.com/assets/4283.jpg ) , the Eten 500 and 600 ( http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/i/z/rv/2005/06/eten-500-i1.gif http://x.msmobiles.com/portal/images/eten/eten-m600-pocketpcphone-4.jpg ) etc etc. These devices all have WM5, more RAM and ROM, and WIFI. Many are also being promoted as own brand devices by the regional carriers, especially T-mobile and O2, but also Vodafone, Cingular, Verizon and Sprint.

For this form factor the Magician was the Treo 600, and 2006 will see explosive sales from this new generation of WM5 devices. So you see, not everything rotates around a keyboard and one handed stylus-free usage, and devices can be very popular without being a Treo.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
freakout @ 1/9/2006 5:05:02 AM # Q
"Tim, you're being sarcastic, right? Please tell me you can see a reason for Palm to try to buy back PalmSource at that point other than the "grand conspiracy theory"."

Of course! The prospect of losing control of the PalmOS to someone like Motorola would have been very, very scary, which would also seem to be a sensible reason for them to make a bid.

But really, they should have known something like that (losing PalmOS to a competitor) could happen from the very beginning, especially if PalmSource had accidentally become a successful company and an even juicier target. So why spin away half of your business when you could lose it?

TVoR's theory makes some sense, in that PalmSource never was successful. And it should have been. PalmOS is cheap (apparently), earlier iterations were quite stable (apparently) and it's easily hackable (demonstratively). It could have been running on a lot of different devices if PalmSource hadn't been "picky" with their licensees (apparently). But if you look at the idea that Palm *wanted* PalmSource to fail, then it makes more sense.

If it wasn't a deliberate thing, then how did a company that makes a small, hackable OS with a tiny footprint not wind up becoming successful in an age when embedded OS's are all the rage?

(Maybe there's a technical reason. If so, someone please shut me up.)

Anyhoo, I'm not saying I believe the conspiracy theory - I'm a little too cynical for that - but that it does fit some of the facts. Which is interesting.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
freakout @ 1/9/2006 5:47:27 AM # Q
^^ Oh, and my earlier comment was sarcastic. I forgot to include the winky.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
hkklife @ 1/9/2006 9:23:44 AM # Q
Oh Surur/everyone;

I forgot to mention that the comments came from the assistant store manager at the Verizon place. The guy's in his late 40s/50s and obviously not too terribly tech savvy, especially in the realm of smartphones. He has, in all fairness, been pretty astute in the past on things and has been with the company at that particular location for years (even since they were Bell Atlantic IIRC). So while he's not one to toss out solid info on # of pixels in the 700w vs. the 650 etc. if he says that corporate doesn't like "Palm OS products and only carried the older Treos because they'd look bad without 'em" and that the 700w is the death knell of the 650 and no chance of a 700p, then I am inclinded to believe him.

I still have considerable doubts that a "proper" (with comparable specs to the 700w) 700p is going to be released--at least between now & May. I think Palm will cough up at least one, maybe two, POS Treos in '06 but they will be marginal upgrades at best (Yes, I hope I am wrong). Were a 700p release imminent, we'd have heard SOMETHING concrete about it by now.

Once the other carriers see the (relative) hotness of the 700w, they are going to drop POS like a rotten slab of meat. Maybe a "stylish" lowend GSM Treo (here's a novel-sell it unlocked for a reasonable sum--$250ish) to squeeze some final $ out of existing 600 owners despreate for an incremental upgrade.

I DO agree with TVoR that there are still $ to be made from rehashing endless Zire & T|E variants for at least the rest of this year or two. BUT...selling Treos requires a commitment from the carriers. T-Mobile & Verizon have already thrown in the towel on the Palm OS. When will Cingular, Sprint, and the international carriers follow suit? What good are Palm's endless rehashes when their NEW customer base are the buyers for the carriers and not guys like "you and me"?

It might be time for Palm to either buck the trend and start aggressively pricing & selling unlocked GSM handsets *or* give some renewed focus on their PDA line. Without carrier support, a rapidly aging 650 and no compelling new PDAs....and the 700w tied up with Verizon, the first half of '06 might look a bit grim for Palm sales not through Verizon...

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
freakout @ 1/9/2006 4:45:46 PM # Q
Why bother calling it the 700w is there's not going to be a 700p? Why not just call it the 700?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
AdamaDBrown @ 1/9/2006 8:34:36 PM # Q
Simony said:

But, if that's right, how come the Blackberry seems to be so successful, stacked-up as it is against companies which offer WM devices?

By that logic, the Treo is a failure because Blackberries outsell it by a factor of five to one.

RIM was the first company to offer a system for push email that really worked. They ate a huge chunk of the mobile email market on that and that alone. The fact that their devices are also simple and relatively cheap only bolsters their position. They're what you roll out to the sales guys who need mobile communication, but aren't technical enough to run something complex.

Use only Authorized software. Your phone may explode ...
Surur @ 1/10/2006 7:32:41 AM # Q
Accessories and batteries
Use only Samsung-approved accessories and batteries. Use
of any unauthorised accessories could damage your phone
and may be dangerous.
CAUTION:
• The phone could explode if the battery is replaced with an
incorrect type.
• Dispose of used batteries according to the manufacturer’s
instructions.
Use of authorised software
Use only Samsung-authorised software. The use of any
unauthorised software could damage your phone.

Qualified service
Only qualified service personnel may install or repair your
phone. Failure to do so may invalidate the warranty.

Not much of a platform, isn't it? Its looks lovely however, but unless you only intend to use Samsung devices, and even not then (because they use multiple OS's) your investment in time and software may be wasted the next time you upgrade.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
Foo Fighter @ 1/10/2006 9:33:56 AM # Q
> "It'll be interesting to see how well an Asian linux smartphone will do on the US market."

You won't have to wait for Asian Linux phones. The new ROKR E2 from Motorola is based on Linux. A customized version of course, and don't get me started on the whole "what makes a phone a "Linux phone" argument, or I'll start seeing red."

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Palm's master plan to sabotage Windows Mobile!
PenguinPowered @ 1/10/2006 3:41:28 PM # Q
All the linux phones have customized OSes. Linux, after all, is just a kernel, and none of the pc distros have any telephony support.

At last count there were, um, a zillion different attempts to put toghether a linux smartphone distro, along with three different efforts to standards the linux smartphone distro.

thus is the nature of open source.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 5:21:41 PM # Q
PalmStation - long dead
PDABuzz - dead
Brighthand - dying
CLIESource/1stsource - irreparably messed up by Jeff "Lardo" Kirvin (who tried desperately to create controversy and stir up interest with his asinine commentary), and now damaged by Ed's confused apologist mumblings - dying

Besides Palminfocenter, and a couple other good review sites like BarainPDA.com, who's left? No one.

W T F is going on? Is this proof that the Palm fad is over, or are people just losing interest because Palm hasn't released an interesting device since the Tungsten Tł?

Ryan, can you see if you can recruit a few of the better PDA pundits around (Larry "Macho Man" Garfield, Adama Brown, twizza/d-roC (Antoine Wright), Foo Fighter (Kent Pribbernow), etc to contribute some decent articles to Palminfocenter? Let's make PIC the place where Palm fans are able to make our "last stand". Regular reviews of hardware + software, tips, tech support, discussion... everything. If other sites are all dying, why not consolidate our resources here? (He11 - now that Mike Cane's MIA, I'll even write a 2006 "Predictions" article, complete with "© TVoR, Inc.". Well... maybe not.)


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 5:54:50 PM # Q
PIC and Palm Addicts are the last two "great" sites around. Everything else is chaff. Brighthand began its death spiral when Steve Bush posted his "Palm epiphany", which sent Pocket PC fans running and hasn't recovered since. For all of us "old timers", PDA Buzz was the best all-in-one community website around. Unfortunately the clowns at HHMG stupidly believed they could simply buy up a community along with a site, and then ejected the very person who created that community (Wes Salmon.) We all know how that story ended. Sadly, there isn't (and probably never will be again) a unified mobile enthusiast website. Communities have fragmented. Palm OS users migrate to PIC, Windows Mobile enthusiasts flock to Thoughts Media (PPCT and SMT).

Mind you, this isn't simply a PalmOS problem. I think all PDA related sites have slipped into quiet respite. Or perhaps something more permanent, due to the fact that PDAs are a declining segment. The glory days are over.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
Surur @ 1/8/2006 7:14:24 PM # Q

I dont disagree that PDA sites have gone quiet, but this is surely not due to the market slipping, as handheld devices are now finally shipping at bigger volumes than the 2000-2001 glory days. Its probably the case that the market has fragmented more, with more blackberries, more Symbians, more PPC's and less Palms.

Maybe the market has just moved on from hype to utility (e.g. blackberries) and there is less excitement going around.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 7:48:27 PM # Q
The glory days are over.

I think with a little effort we could take Palminfocenter back to those 1999 - 2001 years when PDAs looked like they were about to take over the world. For example, if you posted your articles here instead of on your blog site, we'd all be better off. Add Larry Garfield and a few other good writers and it would take off from there. What we have now is far too many (dozens) of sites/blogs/etc., all with too few good writers and all lacking the critical mass of readers needed to generate decent discussion + provide tech support. The only other site that had decent discussion recently (until the asinine moderators took the heavy handed approach last year) was Treocentral. Now even the Treo community is fragmented as well.

We need a STRONG, central PalmOS site now that the platform is going down the tubes. I don't see any site other than Palminfocenter being likely to fill that position. It's time we circle the wagons. A storm's a-comin'.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 7:59:27 PM # Q
You've just uncovered the next major revelation to hit the PDA community; something Ryan and I have tried to keep secret. PalmInfocenter will acquire Pocketfactory, in a three for one stock split. Pending shareholder approval. The new site will be called Palmfactory or PocketInfoCenter (we haven't decided yet on a name) and will cover devices ranging from Palm handhelds to iPods.

That's why PIC went offline over the weekend. We were testing the newly merged site, when calamity struck.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
EdH @ 1/8/2006 8:19:06 PM # Q
You've just uncovered the next major revelation to hit the PDA community; something Ryan and I have tried to keep secret. PalmInfocenter will acquire Pocketfactory, in a three for one stock split. Pending shareholder approval. The new site will be called Palmfactory or PocketInfoCenter (we haven't decided yet on a name) and will cover devices ranging from Palm handhelds to iPods.
That's a great idea. Then, in a few months, you can spin out the forum division and make it separate from the front page post division. Call the front page PocketInfoCenter and the forum spinoff PocketInfoSource.

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2006 8:26:21 PM # Q
Haha! Then we can all sit back and watch PocketInfoSource stumble through mistep after mistep, eventually being acquired by Bubba's Feed and Tractor supply; left wondering where we all went wrong.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2006 8:39:17 PM # Q
You've just uncovered the next major revelation to hit the PDA community; something Ryan and I have tried to keep secret. PalmInfocenter will acquire Pocketfactory, in a three for one stock split. Pending shareholder approval. The new site will be called Palmfactory or PocketInfoCenter (we haven't decided yet on a name) and will cover devices ranging from Palm handhelds to iPods.

You should have sold Ryan the right to the word "factory" for $30 MILLION three months before he agreed to buy your site. Wait a minute... why would he give you $30 MILLION for the right to the word "factory" if he knew he was probably going to buy your site in a few months anyway? Hmmm...

That's why PIC went offline over the weekend. We were testing the newly merged site, when calamity struck.

Cirle the wagons, Martha. That DoS attack from the Microsoft interns and script kiddies was just the beginning. The REAL attacks on Pocketinfocenter start next week. This will be your ONLY warning. All your base are belong to us.

u w1LL g3t p0wN3d. §00µ. v3RĄ §00µ.


http://allyourbase.planettribes.gamespy.com/video1_view.shtml

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
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The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
freakout @ 1/8/2006 11:28:22 PM # Q
TVoR:
"W T F is going on? Is this proof that the Palm fad is over, or are people just losing interest because Palm hasn't released an interesting device since the Tungsten Tł?"

Possible true for the PDA side of things, but Treonauts, MyTreo.Net and TreoCentral are still kicking along nicely. Maybe the community is just switching focus...

Of course, you guys are old hands at this, so any decline would be much more obvious to you. Myself, I've been quite pleased with the online communities that have sprung up around the Treo.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
twizza @ 1/9/2006 9:44:08 AM # Q
Wow. PocketFactory and PIC...would be a nice matchup there honestly.

I think the fad is over for non-connected PDAs, but PDA-Phones still have some spark in them. Having done teh two device thing, and now Treo 600 and 650; folks are more excited with 650s than with any PDA I have had. Interesting, but revealing. PDAs are accepted. People come to forums to look, complain, or compare. Kinda like with most other genres of established tech.

TVOR, I'd love to see a predictions article from you personally. But it would have to have editorial commentary from Marty Fouts and Dr. O to be really PIC-like :) I have done mine, and while more mobile comp (not jsut PDA) focused, I make enough calls there to have fun with.

Lastly, if Palm/Dell/HP/someone would release a device worth getting excited about (the Nokia 770 is close, The Treo650/700w is close) then the PDA fad would be back. As it stands, computing is quite personal, and outside of a rollup screen that fits in a pen and saves 1TB of data, nothing is really wowing anyone anymore.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
cervezas @ 1/9/2006 10:12:47 AM # Q
FWIW, I find MobileRead to be much better than PIC when it comes to breaking Palm news even though it doesn't have the exclusive focus on Palm/Palm OS. More fact, less FUD.

PalmAddict might have good content, I don't know. It's a little hard to find it amid all the advertising. And last I looked they didn't seem to be very focused on Palm OS stuff either, their name notwithstanding. When they do run Palm OS articles a lot of seem to be about new games or somewhat trivial release announcements that are probably interesting to a lot of users but not very germane to my interests.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
twizza @ 1/9/2006 12:00:04 PM # Q
David, you are a developer right? Your brain works differently then and news has to meet a more fact finding and immediate need...others prefer gaming and banter, some prefer a lil of everything. There are sites for everyone on the PalmOS side, though mos def a unbalanced in terms of offerings.

PIC is different, there is news, but no PalmOS site gets the level of discussion that happens here. Its kinda neat actaully. Now, if the front page centered focus could be sharpened a bit (a few more editorials as suggessted would work, and maybe a change to the nav to show the last 1 or two comments per news posting to spark things would also work).

Things will happen well for PalmOS and PDAs. Whether its so niche that we look like Mac-folks or so prevelant that folks gun for you like MS, the PalmOS community as helped to shape the word. Its kinda our responsiblity to keep it alive despite teh device manager's issues.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Are ALL the other PalmOS PDA sites dead?
parambyte @ 1/11/2006 2:13:03 PM # Q
i still hold teh view that Palm's Strong Point has been the OS and they are shooting themselves in the foot and other unmentionables byt showing less than enthusiasm for it.

Do they relaise they are competing now with a gazillion other manufacturers of Windoes Mobile? Benq, Krome, IchiBin god knows who else? The new iPaq looks dangerously like a squared treo. Whats Palm's differntiator? Soon we may have assembled windows mobile phones.

By now Palm should have had an arsenal of palm based Phones. Like Nokia. Like Motorola. Heck, even Blackberry has more phone options than Palm. Sadness!!! Or maybe Palm is just plain un-interested!

Why does it take them soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long to launch a new Treo P upfated with better Bluettoh, WiFi, EVDO/3G/ etc etc when some of teh competition has already launched those products? They dont have to INVENT these things to put them in their phones? and today with every tom-dick-and harrybecoming an IT guy, it shouldnt be difficult to get affordable programmers for the new features and upgrades? Intel does make processors en masse, wich may sooin be available at WalMart, so even that should be taken care of.

How I wish I had enough mony to put together my own SmartPhone!!!

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Samsung Linux Phone at FCC

PenguinPowered @ 1/10/2006 6:28:21 AM # Q
Speaking of plans to kill windows, Samsung appears to be making the i819 ready for the US market by qualifying it with the FCC, according to http://tuxtops.com/

It'll be interesting to see how well an Asian linux smartphone will do on the US market.

May You Live in Interesting Times

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Fortune Magazine says the 700w is a WINNER

Gekko @ 1/12/2006 8:32:34 AM # Q

If it's good enough for Gates...
The trio of Palm, Microsoft and Verizon have created a winner in the Treo Smartphone.
By Peter Lewis, FORTUNE senior editor
January 12, 2006: 7:41 AM EST


NEW YORK (FORTUNE) - Rivals Palm and Microsoft have finally converged. The Palm Treo 700w Smartphone, introduced by Bill Gates in early January, is the first Palm device based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile operating system software instead of Palm's own Palm OS.

And while some convergences are not pretty -- a train wreck is a convergence, after all -- the coming together of Palm (Research)'s elegant Treo hardware, Microsoft (Research)'s fifth-time's-the-charm Windows Mobile 5.0 software, and Verizon (Research)'s high-speed EV-DO nationwide data network is surprisingly harmonious.

Longtime Palm users at first may be appalled by the appearance of the Windows Jolly Roger flag on a Treo phone, but their alarm would be misplaced; in many ways, the Windows version of the Treo is more innovative than the Palm OS-based Treo 650 Smartphone that is widely regarded as the best convergence device available today.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/12/technology/palmtreo_fortune/index.htm



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