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Comments on: ACCESS and PalmSource Announce the ACCESS Linux Platform

PalmSource an ACCESS Company LogoACCESS and PalmSource, today announced the ACCESS Linux Platform (ALP), the latest evolution of Palm OS for Linux. The ACCESS Linux Platform is designed to be an integrated, open and flexible Linux-based platform tailored for smartphones and mobile devices. The platform combines Palm OS for Linux with the NetFront browser and open source linux components.
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Unexpected

heavyduty @ 2/14/2006 4:33:54 AM # Q
This should come as a surprise to most people as probably no one expected this to happen so soon. This platform almost looks to be ahead of Cobalt (R.I.P.) already.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Treo 650 (almost perfect)
RE: Unexpected
gavinfabl @ 2/14/2006 4:53:00 AM # Q
wow.. but end of this year..thats a long way off

HP 4700. Previously every Palm from m500 to Tungsten T3.

www.clieuk.co.uk/gavin.html
gavin (at) pda247 (dot) com

RE: Unexpected
SeldomVisitor @ 2/14/2006 6:12:01 AM # Q
> wow.. but end of this year..thats a long way off

No.

The software development kit is "expected" to be available by the end of the year, not the actual OS:

== "...ACCESS and PalmSource expect to make the ALP Software
== Developer Kit (SDK) available to its licensees by the end of
== this year (2006)..."

There's a big difference between an ADK and an OS and "expect" has been known to have different meanings to ... ahem ... different companies...

RE: Unexpected
scstraus2 @ 2/14/2006 7:10:10 AM # Q
Please Palm, get this thing into a treo ASAP! This frankengarnet crap is killing me. The thing freezes, crashes, and resets all the time as does everyone elses. I want the reliable PalmOS back! Please!

RE: Unexpected
dmitrygr @ 2/14/2006 9:47:02 AM # Q
ahaead of cobalt?
It IS what is left of cobalt

-----------
Software engineer at PalmPowerups.com
TH55/U + T|X2 + T|E2 + Zire 72 + Zire 31 + Visor Prism + WristPDA
RE: Unexpected
LiveFaith @ 2/14/2006 10:23:14 AM # Q
**This frankengarnet crap is killing me. The thing freezes, crashes, and resets all the time as does everyone elses. I want the reliable PalmOS back! Please!**

Hehe. I feel your pain. But, a brand new OS riding on a brand new platform on brand new hardware ... I wouldn't get my hopes up for Palm III stability too soon.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

My, my, my... what HAVE we here?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:54:11 AM # Q
Bwahahahaha!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Unexpected
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 12:55:47 PM # Q
It IS what is left of cobalt

Actually, there's nothing left of Cobalt.

SQLite killed the data manager.
GTK killed the Picasso UI.
Rome is being reimplemented in GTK.
The launcher is new to the Linux implementation.

Well, that's not entirely true. They kept the binder. (see www.openbinder.org)

giggle



May You Live in Interesting Times

Bwahahahaha!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 4:45:28 PM # Q
>>>It IS what is left of cobalt

Actually, there's nothing left of Cobalt.

SQLite killed the data manager.
GTK killed the Picasso UI.
Rome is being reimplemented in GTK.
The launcher is new to the Linux implementation.

Well, that's not entirely true. They kept the binder. (see www.openbinder.org)

giggle


Marty you really are one vicious SOB.

I'll say it again: Bwahahahaha!

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

PalmOS developers are going to dump the platform in disgust
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 4:48:46 PM # Q
WAKE UP, PEOPLE!!!

PalmOS has NO future, folks.

Sorry.

The endgame has begun.

The emperor has NO clothes.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Unexpected
Kesh @ 2/14/2006 5:04:40 PM # Q
The PalmOS is dead. Long live the PalmOS!

Seriously, this sounds like basically what happened when Macintosh moved to the BSD Unix based OS X. It really is a whole new OS underneath. We just have to hope it maintains the ease of use of the classic PalmOS.

RE: Unexpected
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 5:08:31 PM # Q
Nothing left of Cobalt? And we should be unhappy... why now?

SQLite killed the data manager.

Good riddance.

GTK killed the Picasso UI.

So... what, no translucent windows? Not to be too harsh, but should I be grieving deeply? I don't know GTK too well, but I welcome our new GTK overlords if it means some interesting software ports from outside the Palm OS developer community. (Skype or Gizmo anyone?)

Rome is being reimplemented in GTK.

Oh, now that's actually juicy, Marty. Last we knew Rome was just research. Way to go, Romans!

The launcher is new to the Linux implementation.

And a fine launcher it will be if it gives a uniform interface to all those different types of applications without the user having to know or care how they were written.

I don't think many people will shed a tear if Cobalt just turns out to be the compost used to sprout a thriving ALP. This in and of itself certainly isn't bad news for users of Palm OS.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Unexpected
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 10:52:12 PM # Q
I don't think many people will shed a tear if Cobalt just turns out to be the compost used to sprout a thriving ALP. This in and of itself certainly isn't bad news for users of Palm OS.

What planet do you come from, Beersy?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

WANTED: Cobalt. Dead or Alive.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 12:57:26 AM # Q
It IS what is left of cobalt

Actually, there's nothing left of Cobalt.

SQLite killed the data manager.
GTK killed the Picasso UI.

And video killed the radio star...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

like N770

fanoush @ 2/14/2006 5:14:25 AM # Q
kernel 2.6.12, gtk, gstreamer - same components like in Nokia N770 http://www.nokia.com/770
But the browser is of course different, Nokia uses Opera.
Looks like another win for gtk folks and bad thing for Trolltech's QT/E.

but will it use the X Window System?
Sam H @ 2/16/2006 12:46:31 PM # Q
That was Nokia's mistake with the N770 (hence its sluggish performance and huge memory usage). Will ACCESS repeat that mistake?
RE: like N770
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 1:00:40 PM # Q
The ALP system demo-ed in Barcelona does run X (probably because it was the quickest way they could show a working system) but from what I understand there's still discussion within PalmSource about whether this is the way they will ultimately go. I tend to agree with you on this, BTW:
http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=49


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: like N770
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 1:50:45 PM # Q
It is an interesting tradeoff. X is currently very heavy weight, although there are a few efforts afoot, such as the on-again / off-again push at handhelds.org, to make a tiny subset. (See also X11R7, which is a 'modular' reimplementation of X.)

On the other hand, GTK+ isn't really ready to be standalone, and needs a bunch of window management support. By the time someone has done the work to make GTK+ usable, will they end up with as big a system as X anyway? Will it take them as long or longer than it would take to do the tiny X implementation?

In Novemeber, I put together a Debian/Tiny-X embedded ARM mini-distro, which was less sluggish than the N770 is reported to be, but I didn't run it and Maemo on the same device, so I can't really say.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: like N770
Sam H @ 2/16/2006 1:54:04 PM # Q
Interesting. Getting DirectFB Ready For Prime Time would be no small task but see http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/20/228223 (if you haven't already) for how it might work.
RE: like N770
Sam H @ 2/16/2006 2:01:48 PM # Q
Fundamentally, I think X is the wrong tool for the job on mobile devices. I know people cite Moore's law to counter speed/memory usage criticisms of X, but heat dissipation and battery life mean that slower processors and limited memory will continue to be common on mobile devices and software has to be able to cope with that.
RE: like N770
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 2:12:36 PM # Q
I agree. There is a lot about X that makes it a bad fit for mobile device.

But it's another example of the general purpose versus purpose built argument. Purpose built systems have the advantage of being exact fits, with the disadvantage of being custom one of a kind creatures. General purpose systems have the advantage of flexibility and a large user community with the disadvantage of sloppy overhead.

In the computer industry, as in most technology driven industries, the purpose built gear paves the way but the general purpose gear tends to win in the end.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: like N770
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 2:57:15 PM # Q
In the computer industry, as in most technology driven industries, the purpose built gear paves the way but the general purpose gear tends to win in the end.

Mobile Linux has got a lot of buzz but is a pothole-ridden dirt track right now. I think paving first is the right approach. PalmSource can add more lanes when the traffic requires it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: like N770
Sam H @ 2/16/2006 4:53:30 PM # Q
But it's another example of the general purpose versus purpose built argument. Purpose built systems have the advantage of being exact fits, with the disadvantage of being custom one of a kind creatures. General purpose systems have the advantage of flexibility and a large user community with the disadvantage of sloppy overhead.

Indeed. PalmSource have a choice between doing the Right Thing (something like Gosling's putative window system) or the Cheap Thing (X).

Reply to this comment

Sounds great!

freakout @ 2/14/2006 5:39:21 AM # Q
What's the catch?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: Sounds great!
LiveFaith @ 2/14/2006 10:28:28 AM # Q
2014 in the first device.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:25:50 PM # Q
Nah, expect the first device in 2008.

I'm sure GSPDA will announce it at the '08 devcon.

(removes tongue from cheek)


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:48:41 PM # Q
It's going to be a ways off, no doubt. I'm encouraged to start experimenting with maemo development with the expectation that my stuff could be leveraged when the ALP devices finally hit the market. I'm going to be very interested to see what Nokia does with that platform in the next year or two, even though I know it's probably going to remain a fairly niche platform for a while.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sounds great!
LiveFaith @ 2/14/2006 2:03:50 PM # Q
Maybe the Samsung SGH-i500L and 10 other smartfones will have it by the end of 2005. That's what I'm hearing.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 2:49:31 PM # Q
I'm encouraged to start experimenting with maemo development with the expectation that my stuff could be leveraged when the ALP devices finally hit the market.

Be careful with that, Maemo has a completely different application API, and Hildon isn't much like either Garnet/Cobalt, or NetFront.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 2:54:52 PM # Q
Maemo has a completely different application API, and Hildon isn't much like either Garnet/Cobalt, or NetFront.

Oh yeah, there's Hildon, too. Well, perhaps not, then.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 3:00:36 PM # Q
The difference between Hildon and the PSRC Cobalt Cludge is a large part of why I declared Nokia to be a more interesting player than PSRC in Linux land.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 4:07:57 PM # Q
The difference between Hildon and the PSRC Cobalt Cludge is a large part of why I declared Nokia to be a more interesting player than PSRC in Linux land.

Each to his own, I guess. Looking forward to the day when I can look at the MAX API and evaluate this for myself. Nothing against you, Marty, but you come from a different programming background than I do and something tells me that the stuff that you consider to be important is going to be very different from the stuff that me and mine consider important.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Sounds great!
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 4:16:00 PM # Q
Now that was a fine piece of grammar, David.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 10:25:26 PM # Q
No offense taken, David, but after 30 years in the business, I can recognize that different domains need different interfaces.

Max isn't Cobalt, and so my jury is out on it, but the way PSRC was headed with Cobalt over Linux was a very bad match and there was no way in your world that it would have been a good competitor.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds like absolute shi*
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 10:31:14 PM # Q
Nah, expect the first device in 2008.

I'm sure GSPDA will announce it at the '08 devcon.

(removes tongue from cheek)

Excuse me, but who the he11 said you could take MY lines. I'm going to have a little chat with Ryan about you, Mr. Fouts.



Rumor has it the Oswin Cobalt phone can triple boot between NetFrontLinux, Cobalt and Windows Mobile. Allah be praised!

And in case you didn't hear, the 2006, 2007 and 2008 PalmSource DevCons have now officially been moved to the Starbucks down the road from PalmSource (the one on N Mathilda Ave). I doubt there will be space for GSPDA to squeeze a product booth in between the donuts.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 10:55:47 PM # Q
I'm encouraged to start experimenting with maemo development with the expectation that my stuff could be leveraged when the ALP devices finally hit the market.

Are you SURE about that, Beery?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Marty shifts into full biotchslap mode:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 10:59:36 PM # Q
The difference between Hildon and the PSRC Cobalt Cludge is a large part of why I declared Nokia to be a more interesting player than PSRC in Linux land.


"PSRC Cobalt Cludge"???

W T F!!!

I assume you won't be getting any Christmas cards from Gassée this year, Marty. Treacherous infidel!

I wonder if PalmSource needs to update its NDA with a clause stopping former codemonkeys from ripping PalmSource's core product to pieces in public... Or at least waiting until AFTER they've failed spectacularly before doing so.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 11:19:36 PM # Q
Skippy, Skippy, Skippy.

One can hardly call an alliterative moniker a 'biotchslap'.

Anyway, I've never meet Gassée, so I doubt I'd ever made his christmas card list anyway.

HAND

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:38:44 PM # Q
One can hardly call an alliterative moniker a 'biotchslap'.

I wonder what "alliterative moniker[s]" Gassée's coming up for you these days? Marty "Mother F*****" Fouts"? Hmmmm... that actually has a little je ne sais quoi.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 12:11:51 AM # Q
Um, Skippy? Gassee doesn't read PIC, and we never met. He's got no idea who I am.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 12:40:02 AM # Q
PenguinPowered wrote:
Max isn't Cobalt, and so my jury is out on it, but the way PSRC was headed with Cobalt over Linux was a very bad match and there was no way in your world that it would have been a good competitor.

Well, I'll take your word that we dodged one bullet, then. Or perhaps I should say jumped the shark. :-~

On a related note, I think there are some Be developers out there that would like their OS back. I wonder if now that PalmSource is finished with BeOS they will pay them the kindness of opening the source for the rest of it (not just Binder).

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Codemonkey KILLED by mouse bomb. Foul play suspected.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 1:11:09 AM # Q
Um, Skippy? Gassee doesn't read PIC, and we never met. He's got no idea who I am.

Guess again, Marty. You have no idea how clueless you are. Really.

You have been the subject of a few emails within PalmSource recently. Watch your back, Bubba:

It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small, small world

http://tinyurl.com/mryj

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 3:07:00 AM # Q
It's a fascinating fantasy life you have there skippy, but I'm not worried, as I live in the real one.

kthxbye


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
stonemirror @ 2/15/2006 10:26:12 AM # Q
You have been the subject of a few emails within PalmSource recently.

Sorry, no.

RE: Sounds great!
Admin @ 2/15/2006 12:32:47 PM # Q
Gassee doesn't read PIC

I sat a few rows behind him at a PalmSource devcon before and saw him chacking out the site.

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 12:41:12 PM # Q
Ah, so I was wrong about Gassee's reading material. Like I said, we've never met, and he has no idea who I am.

But as Lefty just pointed out, skippy is wrong again about the "trouble" I'm in with PSRC.

The past two days have been an excellent example of a point I made earlier: The more skippy realizes he's been shown wrong, the more abusive his posts become.

What I didn't mention then, but is very clear from the past two days is that the more he's been shown wrong, the more fantastical he makes his bogus claims.

I'm really surprised that such a childish troll has any followers at all on this web site.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Sounds great!
Foo Fighter @ 2/15/2006 1:08:24 PM # Q
> "...is wrong again about the "trouble" I'm in with PSRC."

Oh yes you are! I happen to know that for the last year, prior to leaving PalmSource, you've been illegally parking in the handicapped space in the employee parking lot. We have you on video.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Sounds great!
Wollombi @ 2/15/2006 4:34:04 PM # Q
>>"Oh yes you are! I happen to know that for the last year, prior to leaving PalmSource, you've been illegally parking in the handicapped space in the employee parking lot. We have you on video."<<

Bwahahahahahahaaaaaa! Now that was funny. I must say that TVoR has been amusing if nothing else (like lucid) lately. =P

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

Tastes great! Less filling!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 10:45:42 PM # Q
>>>You have been the subject of a few emails within PalmSource recently.

Sorry, no.

Wow. So in addition to presiding over the implosion of PalmLinux (née Cobalt), you also now read all emails sent to/from/among PalmSource employees? Impressive. That must mean you're pretty good at multitasking. (Or is it "multithreading"?)

Suggestion: Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong, David.

Take care.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 2:12:07 AM # Q
Skippy,

By reading his own email, Lefty reads more PSRC email a day than you've ever seen.

It cracks us all up, the way you pretend to such insider knowledge, when you don't even know who left PSRC when, and have to have me point out an article in OSNews before you even know Hackborn left.

Aren't you yet tired of being shown up as such a sham?

May You Live in Interesting Times

Martygoatse.cx
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 9:37:21 PM # Q
Skippy,

By reading his own email, Lefty reads more PSRC email a day than you've ever seen.

It cracks us all up, the way you pretend to such insider knowledge, when you don't even know who left PSRC when, and have to have me point out an article in OSNews before you even know Hackborn left.

Aren't you yet tired of being shown up as such a sham?

Keep dreaming, Marty. (By the way, I would never claim to have "such insider knowledge" - I prefer to let the disasters present on their own.

Who is this Hackborn person you're referring to?

TVoR


P.S. There were more emails sent about you today. I see you've significantly toned down the language in your posts about PalmSource, Marty. Wise choice. Except it's probably too late to matter. I understand you're bitter because of how PalmSource treated you, but the answer should not have been to take your anger out on Palm by bashing them publicly and attempting to undermine confidence in the platform. Your behaviour has attracted a significant amount of attention and you deserve to pay for you incredibly unprofessional behaviour. Your actions prove you to be extremely untrustworthy, Marty. I hope PalmSource/Access don't turn you into the new goatse.cx poster boy.


Take care.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 10:11:17 PM # Q
I see you've significantly toned down the language in your posts about PalmSource

Skippy, Skippy, Skippy. You've already proven that your writing skills are poor. Why are you trying so hard to draw attention to the limits of your reading skills?

You need to get out of your parents' basement besides just going to your help desk job. And you should definitely try reading something besides comix and web forums -- your shallowness and repetiveness is getting old.

By the way, Skippy, your increasing level of abusiveness no longer amuses anyone. You need a new shtick, your old one has worn out.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty The Contrite? How sweet!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 10:27:43 PM # Q
I see you've significantly toned down the language in your posts about PalmSource

Skippy, Skippy, Skippy. You've already proven that your writing skills are poor. Why are you trying so hard to draw attention to the limits of your reading skills?

What happened to the brash Marty that was ripping into PalmSource every chance he could a few days ago. Contrition is A Good Thing, Marty.

You need to get out of your parents' basement besides just going to your help desk job. And you should definitely try reading something besides comix and web forums -- your shallowness and repetiveness is getting old.

What a clever thing for you to say, Marty. As usual, your intelligence and style comes shining through.

By the way, Skippy, your increasing level of abusiveness no longer amuses anyone. You need a new shtick, your old one has worn out.

Abusiveness? Moi? Look in the mirror, Marty. The (self?) abuser is waiting for you there. Thanks for sharing your insights, Marty.

Be careful out there.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sounds great!
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 10:42:10 PM # Q
What happened to the brash Marty that was ripping into PalmSource every chance he could a few days ago.

The same thing that happens to all your imaginary friends, Skippy, and the easter bunny. He never existed.

I'm still saying the same things I've said all along in the same tone.

You, on the other hand, are looking to distract the PIC readership from how much the ALP announcement and OpenBinder interview have shown how little you know about the industry.

It's been months since anyone was taken in by you Skippy. Time to move on. I hear the Register needs a replacement for one of their more incoherent writers. Maybe you should apply?


May You Live in Interesting Times

Get down on your hands + knees and BEG for forgiveness. Beg!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 10:49:00 PM # Q

"Time to move on."???

Should I insert a nervous laugh from you here, Marty? Why are you so suddenly (repeatedly) trying to insult me, Marty? Why? Could it be because...

Guess what, Buddy. I'm right here. And all your mendacious posts are going to keep getting revealed for what they are, until you finally change your ways and let the Lord Bill into your life.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Mendacity...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/18/2006 5:25:23 AM # Q
Thy name is Marty Access.
Reply to this comment

Cobalt Fanfare Redux

Gekko @ 2/14/2006 6:41:18 AM # Q

I think they just copied the old press release:

PalmSource's goal is to have Cobalt become the platform of choice for the development of high volume, feature rich smartphones and mobile devices for high performance networks, including 2.5G and 3G, worldwide. Cobalt is designed to provide a complete, consistent and customizable solution for handset and mobile device manufacturers and mobile operators. PalmSource expects to make the Cobalt Software Developer Kit (SDK) available to its licensees by the end of this year (2003).



RE: Cobalt Fanfare Redux
SeldomVisitor @ 2/14/2006 6:53:58 AM # Q
Are you serious?

HA HA HA!

That's is genuinely WAY funny!

HA HA HA!

Sheesh.

Tastes great! Less filling!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:58:21 AM # Q
http://www.palmsource.com/press/


http://www.palmsource.com/press/2004/092804_cobalt.html

PalmSource Introduces Palm OS Cobalt 6.1

The foundation for smartphones and new categories of wireless devices

MUNICH, Germany, PalmSource™ Euro DevCon, September 28, 2004 — PalmSource, Inc. (NASDAQ: PSRC) provider of Palm OS®, a leading operating system powering next generation mobile devices and smartphones, today introduced Palm OS Cobalt 6.1, an enhanced version of Palm OS Cobalt. Designed to accelerate the development of next-generation Palm Powered™ smartphones and wireless devices, Palm OS Cobalt 6.1 builds on the foundation of Palm OS Cobalt and provides integrated telephony features, support for WiFi and Bluetooth and enhancements to the user interface. Palm OS Cobalt 6.1 offers new functionality aimed at Palm OS licensees looking to participate in the growing wireless market, while maintaining the flexibility, ease-of-use and compatibility that are the hallmarks of Palm Powered wireless devices.

"We believe Palm OS Cobalt 6.1 optimizes our platform for the creation of cutting-edge smartphones and wireless devices that are powerful yet easy-to-use," said David Nagel, president and CEO of PalmSource, Inc. "By integrating state-of-the-art wireless functionality into Palm OS, we are providing our Palm OS licensee and developer community a real time-to-market advantage in delivering smartphones and wireless mobile devices to consumers."

****************************************************************************

http://www.palmsource.com/press/2004/010604_os6.html

PalmSource Ships Palm OS 6 to Its Licensees


SUNNYVALE, Calif., January 6, 2004 - PalmSource, Inc. (NASDAQ: PSRC) the provider of Palm OS®, a leading operating system powering next generation mobile devices and smartphones, has shipped Palm OS 6, the next major release of its operating system, to its licensees.

PalmSource has fulfilled its commitment to deliver the next major release of the Palm OS before the end of 2003. Palm OS 6, shipped December 29, 2003, combines the flexibility, simplicity and ease of use that we believe are the hallmark of today's versions of Palm OS with the emergent operating system requirements that meet the demands anticipated for tomorrow's smart mobile devices. These requirements include modularity, multi-tasking, memory protection, robust security and state-of-the-art multimedia capabilities. Palm OS 6 enables the development of a new class of Palm Powered mobile products and strengthens PalmSource's position in the wireless and telephony markets. Palm OS 6 now joins PalmSource's growing family of product offerings.


"Palm OS 6 is a major milestone for PalmSource, and we are happy to deliver the final version on schedule," said Larry Slotnick, chief products officer at PalmSource. "We believe that our team has developed a tremendous product for our licensees to bring innovative Palm Powered mobile products into new markets."

*****************************************************************************

http://www.palmsource.com/press/2003/050603_RIM.html

PalmSource and RIM to Extend BlackBerry Wireless Email and Data Connectivity Solution for Palm Powered Devices


PALMSOURCE DEVELOPER SEMINAR, SAN MATEO, Calif. -- May 6, 2003 -- PalmSource, Inc., provider of the world's most popular operating system for handhelds and smartphones, and the Palm OS® subsidiary of Palm, Inc. (Nasdaq: PALM), and Research In Motion (RIM) (Nasdaq: RIMM; TSX: RIM), the leading developer of wireless enterprise solutions, today announced they will work together to market and promote the BlackBerry Connect™ solution to Palm OS licensees to enable secure, push-based email and data connectivity for wireless Palm Powered™ handhelds and smartphones.

As the enterprise becomes increasingly mobile, demand for easily deployable, wireless solutions that immediately increase productivity and reduce IT costs continue to grow. Mobile professionals and IT departments require reliable and secure access to corporate data from their wireless device and the ease of integration with existing back-end resources. Through RIM's BlackBerry Connect licensing program, Palm OS licensees will be offered RIM's Palm OS- based software client, which will enable behind-the-firewall, enterprise-ready BlackBerry® email and corporate data connectivity for Palm Powered handhelds and smartphones.

"The BlackBerry connectivity architecture and infrastructure has been certified by leading wireless carriers around the world and BlackBerry Enterprise Server™ has been deployed in more than ten thousand companies and government organizations," said Mike Lazaridis, president and co-CEO at Research In Motion. "Together with PalmSource, we will enable carriers and customers to leverage their existing investments and deliver the BlackBerry wireless experience to new users of Palm Powered wireless devices."

"We are pleased to partner with RIM to deliver an industry-leading robust, secure wireless email and corporate data solution for Palm Powered mobile devices," said David Nagel, president and chief executive officer for PalmSource. "BlackBerry Connect for Palm Powered devices will widen the choices of wireless messaging solutions for Palm OS licensees in order to better meet the needs of our enterprise customers."

BlackBerry Connect on Palm OS delivers a powerful combination for Palm Powered mobile devices to execute on enterprise customer requirements for enhanced flexibility, security and manageability, uncompromised power and ease of use, and low training, support and maintenance costs. Palm OS has achieved a leading position in the enterprise because it offers a low total cost of ownership (TCO), while also supporting the largest base of mobile software worldwide1.

BlackBerry is a leading wireless enterprise platform that has been widely deployed to provide mobile access to information. BlackBerry Enterprise Server supports both Microsoft® Exchange and IBM Lotus® Domino™ environments with single mailbox integration and provides IT departments with centralized administration, end-to-end security (using Triple DES encryption), multi-network support and a powerful development platform. RIM's BlackBerry Connect licensing program enables mobile device manufacturers to equip their handsets with the same reliable, secure and push-based BlackBerry wireless data experience.

Further details regarding the collaboration have not been disclosed at this time.

****************************************************************************

http://www.palmsource.com/press/2003/121803_rim.html

PalmSource and RIM to Jointly Develop BlackBerry Connectivity Support for Palm OS


Sunnyvale, Calif. and Waterloo, ON, December 18, 2003 - PalmSource, Inc. (NASDAQ: PSRC) provider of Palm OS, a leading operating system powering next generation mobile devices and smartphones, and Research In Motion (RIM) (NASDAQ: RIMM; TSX: RIM), a leading developer of wireless solutions, have formalized their development relationship and have begun efforts to jointly develop a software client that enables BlackBerry® connectivity to Palm OS.

Following the recent announcement of the Palm Powered Mobile World program, the PalmSource and RIM agreement continues on this momentum by initiating the technology development phase of the relationship. RIM and PalmSource anticipate negotiating a technology distribution agreement for the BlackBerry connectivity solution on Palm OS at a later date.

The goal of this development effort is to create a BlackBerry connectivity solution for Palm OS licensees in the second half of 2004. This solution will be designed to provide Palm OS licensees the ability to connect their Palm Powered™ wireless handhelds and smartphones to BlackBerry Enterprise Server™ using the same secure push-based wireless architecture and infrastructure that currently supports thousands of companies and government organizations. The BlackBerry Connect™ solution for Palm OS will also support BlackBerry Web Client, a wireless Internet email service for individuals and small business that does not require server software.

"We view wireless data connectivity as being fundamental to the continuing growth and success of mobile devices and services around the world," said Mike Lazaridis, president and co-CEO at Research In Motion. "Together, PalmSource and RIM are leveraging our respective strengths to provide licensees, carriers and developers with a strong wireless foundation to address a wide range of customer needs."

"The development of BlackBerry connectivity for Palm OS offers our licensees and carrier partners an industry leading solution and further demonstrates our commitment to mobile data and enterprise solutions," said David Nagel, president and chief executive officer for PalmSource. "We believe that Palm OS together with RIM's innovative BlackBerry connectivity will meet the growing needs of our customers and Palm OS developers."



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Cobalt Fanfare Redux
LiveFaith @ 2/14/2006 2:05:53 PM # Q
9/28/2004 - 2/14/2006 ... nearly a seventeen month dead zone. And the CEO got a $3M severence when booted. I knew I shoulda stayed in the business world.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Cobalt Fanfare Redux
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:44:08 PM # Q
I knew I shoulda stayed in the business world.

Not worth it to spend eternity in Hell?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

OMG!

legodude522 @ 2/14/2006 7:02:32 AM # Q
Gimp will be awesome!

Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present
RE: OMG!
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 9:58:28 AM # Q
Easy, there. They didn't say they're shipping with the GIMP application. They're using a version of the windowing/widget toolkit that was created when GIMP was developed. Kinda like Nokia has done with the maemo platform they're using with their new Internet Tablet. It's called GTK+.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Reply to this comment

ALP OS?

javispedro @ 2/14/2006 7:20:18 AM # Q
ALPOS? Ugly name...

Well I hope they do it better than Nokia :)

RE: ALP OS?
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 10:20:33 AM # Q
LinuxDevices.com reports that ALP is only a code name.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: ALP OS?
LiveFaith @ 2/14/2006 10:29:40 AM # Q
ALPOs ... sounds like a multi-pack of dog food. :-D

Hope she's not a dog!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: ALP OS?
Wollombi @ 2/15/2006 4:38:08 PM # Q
I can see the press release now...."The great meaty devices dogs..er..consumers love..."

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

Reply to this comment

Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...

Surur @ 2/14/2006 7:46:39 AM # Q
Providing new opportunities for developers - The mobile Linux market is expected to grow from shipments of 3.5 million in 2005 to 28.1 million by 2010, according to the industry analyst firm Informa*. This presents new opportunities for both Palm OS® and Linux third-party developers. ALP has been designed to ensure that properly written Palm OS 68K applications will run unchanged. We believe that this compatibility will enable PalmSource's robust community of over 420,000 registered developers to potentially reach new customers and markets.

In addition, ALP, because it includes open source components including GTK and GStreamer, can support a wide variety of third party Linux applications and services. ACCESS and PalmSource plan to provide the developer community with development tools and SDKs to enable them to port existing applications and develop new applications for ALP.

Goodbye Cobalt. Goodbye Protein. And I still believe the browser will be the desktop and launcher.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
KultiVator @ 2/14/2006 8:14:30 AM # Q
Surer - as per the last outing of your comments on this... I agree that the browser may form the basis of the Launcher and the Desktop UI - but that is different from the Browser actually being the underlying OS.

In the same way that Internet Explorer effectively can be used to render 'Active Desktop' or act as an 'Explorer subsitute' for file management operations on Windows. But that doesn't make IE anything more than an application that pulls the levers provided by the various layers of the underlying OS.

What will be interesting is how the Palm OS side of things will be implemented. The press-release doesn't seem to mention OS5 (Garnet) compatibility. So has it gone, or is it handled separately from 68k emulation? And will there be a new ALP-native environment to develop for?

Still more questions than answer at this stage. And yes - we've a long wait ahead for this particular ship to set sail. Which makes me wonder more than ever whether Palm will focus on building their own Linux-based OS and whether the recent stock splitting announcement has anything to do with this.


EradiKator

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
javispedro @ 2/14/2006 8:16:36 AM # Q
They said long ago that Protein app would have to be "simply" recompiled in order to work on ALPOS. So I guess that's not "Unchanged".

68k apps will surely work like today do, under emulation.

Cobalt is alive and well
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 8:49:50 AM # Q
Based on the announcement, ALP has Cobalt's protected memory and multi-tasking for native apps, as well as Cobalt's emulation environment for 68k applications. As far as I can tell, this is the same project that PalmSource has been working on since Dec '04 and that ACCESS said they planned to continue. No surprises there: it's Cobalt on Linux.

Chill out, Surer.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Me Dunno...Sounds one of two to me
twizza @ 2/14/2006 9:23:46 AM # Q
Sounds like it could be either Cobalt-like but not Cobalt; or, that it would be Cobalt itself, made to actually work with the Linux kernal. In any instance, its the ALPOS (sounds like dog food right) and its here. Me wonders how Palm will react to the many cell phone vendors who jump in (personally waiting for Sony E to make a run with this instead of Symbian, but they arent moving just yet).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
SeldomVisitor @ 2/14/2006 9:31:03 AM # Q
> ...and its here...

It is!?

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
Surur @ 2/14/2006 9:38:34 AM # Q

David, I dont see how you come to the conclusion that much of ALP is from Cobalt.

The windowing and widgets is via GIMP.

The Multimedia is via Gstreamer.

the Bluetooth BlueZ stack is Opensource.

The protected memory is courtesy of the Linux kernel.

I dont see any Cobalt at all here. I even wonder if armlets work.

The only mystery is the Max Application Framework, which doesn't really show up when googling.

This is POSLinux on the cheap, and POS appears to be a very small part of it.

Surur


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 9:50:29 AM # Q
I presume that MAX is the new name for the Cobalt application framework. You didn't expect them to use the name "Cobalt" again, did you? I doubt we'll hear that name uttered by ACCESS lips ever. ;-)

GTK+ is a toolkit that you can use to build an application framework, not the framework itself.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
Dr Opinion @ 2/14/2006 11:36:10 AM # Q
> "...[not] much of ALP is from Cobalt..."

MAX is derived from the cobalt layer. Duh. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
KultiVator @ 2/14/2006 12:04:39 PM # Q
I reckon you could count on Surur to put a negative spin on winning the National Lottery!

Lighten up man!

The future's an interesting place and sooner or later something new will come along and sweep many of us along with it. Whether that something comes from Palm, Access or another party remains to be seen - but from where I'm standing, it sure as heck isn't going to be WinMob5!

EjudiKator

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 12:30:34 PM # Q
I reckon you could count on Surur to put a negative spin on winning the National Lottery!

That's fer sure. I've never seen such a pair of blinders. They're so tight they almost seem to cover his eyes completely at times.

In fairness, it's not just Surer. I don't know how many people realize it, but while PIC has some good info and some bright people, the whole community has a broadly shared perspective of negativity that keeps it out of touch with both the reality and promise of the mobile technology world. There are going to be a lot of surprises over the next two or three years that will catch "in-the-know" PIC readers flat footed, IMO.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
Surur @ 2/14/2006 12:33:44 PM # Q

OK, positive spin time then ;)

This new platform will take POS users forward into a new generation of open devices, and allow them to transition to other software, such as Java or native Linux.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 12:41:13 PM # Q
"Native Linux" is a meaningly expression when describing applications, Surer.

I tell you what, how about presenting us a single fact to justify your proposition that ACCESS and PalmSource plan to deliver an API that's fundamentally different from Protein? Or barring any facts, how about a reasonable hypothetical argument as to why PalmSource would take extra time to create an entirely new non-Protein API?

For my part, I don't see anything in the architecture just published that can't be perfectly well exposed to developers using the existing Cobalt APIs. They might add some extensions to the API so developers can execute SQL queries against the new database engine, but that would just be gravy for the roast, not a change from Lamb to Chicken.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:03:07 PM # Q
Cobalt is dead.

But no, the browser won't be the launcher. Launcher is a separate application.

Sorry, David, but it is different than Protein. Picasso is replaced by GTK+, Datamanager by SQLite, many of the Cobalt APIs will not see the light of day. NVFS goes away and is replaced by POSIX style file I/O to Linux MTD based file systems.

Oh, and something no one seems to have noticed: They seem to have just announced, if you read between the lines, the end of the use of the name PalmOS. Garnet will turn out to have been the last in that line.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
Surur @ 2/14/2006 1:09:38 PM # Q

The main thing I want to know (which would tell me if Max is Cobalt) is if that funny multi-tasking system is being used or not. You know, where there is only one foreground user process, and one background multi-threaded process. If this is gone, Max is NOT Cobalt.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:12:20 PM # Q
The main thing I want to know (which would tell me if Max is Cobalt) is if that funny multi-tasking system is being used or not. You know, where there is only one foreground user process, and one background multi-threaded process. If this is gone, Max is NOT Cobalt.

Get with the program. That's Garnet not Cobalt. Apps written in the Protein API all ran in their own process with protected memory under Cobalt.

So, getting back to you putting a negative spin on winning the lottery... Your response to ACCESS lifting some limitation that never existed in Cobalt in the first place you'd pronounce Cobalt dead? You need to go out and walk around in the sun for a while, dude.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
AdamaDBrown @ 2/14/2006 1:45:01 PM # Q
out of touch with both the reality and promise of the mobile technology world.

I wouldn't agree. While there's a few people like that, most of us have a skepticism built and justified by years of continuous mistakes and failures on the part of the Palm companies. If you don't agree, then tell me why Palm OS has been losing marketshare pretty much continuously since 2002, or why even supposedly mainstream pundits and journalists agree that it's long since time for the current Palm OS to be put out of its misery.

The fact that we don't jump on the bandwagon with every new meaningless tech that comes along doesn't mean we're somehow crazy people. The crowd here is often fickle, certainly, but in that they're only representative of a concentrated form of the general market. This is computing, not the auto industry--you can't resell the same product with a new label year after year without getting ripped to pieces.

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:53:07 PM # Q
PenguinPowered wrote:
Picasso is replaced by GTK+, Datamanager by SQLite, many of the Cobalt APIs will not see the light of day. NVFS goes away and is replaced by POSIX style file I/O to Linux MTD based file systems.

Don't know what the Picasso->GTK+ transformation is going to mean to me, exactly, but the move from DataManager to SQLite is probably going to be something that expands ACCESS's developer community, even if it creates some pain for folks porting their apps to MAX. A lot of folks will applaud being able to query a database like you've been able to on every other computing platform for decades. SQLite is interesting b/c you can run it as a completely in-memory database. I'm sure that's one reason why it was selected. I wonder if there are going to be options in the API to choose whether you run it in-memory or hit the file system every time you do a transaction.

I don't think anyone will complain about the old NVFS stuff being replaced. I take it this part of the new system is some of your handiwork, Marty? Take a bow!

Oh, and something no one seems to have noticed: They seem to have just announced, if you read between the lines, the end of the use of the name PalmOS.

Not new: ACCESS has been using the term "PalmSource OS" as a placeholder prior to this announcement. They're still talking about "Palm Desktop" here, though. What're they going to do with that sticky naming problem. Perhaps they just refer to it with a nifty unpronounceable symbol and say "The Desktop Application Formerly Known as Palm Desktop" when talking about it in public.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
Surur @ 2/14/2006 1:56:01 PM # Q

What happened to the UI threads, background threads, attention manager and all that stuff? Now I've just got Kirvin to thank for my understanding, so it may all be nonsense.

Ok, I found a page.

An application runs in its own process, called the Application process. Only one application runs at a time. When an application switch occurs, the currently-running application exits, and its process is torn down. A new Applicationprocess is then created, and the new application is started within it.

Palm OS Cobalt also creates a process called the Background Process. Applications can use this process to execute code that needs to persist across application switches. (Any threads created in the Application process are torn down with the rest of the process as part of an application switch.) The system provides APIs for applications to spawn threads in the Background Process, which are then free to run independently from the main UI.

Note that code from multiple independent applications may be running in the Background Process, and any application is free to load code into the process as desired. Because of this, the Background Process is not a secure address space. Secure operations must be executed in the Application process, where the application has full control over what is loaded. In addition, crashing code will bring down all other threads running in the Background Process. There are facilities for applications to be notified of a thread crashing so they may restart any desired threads.

http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/protein_books/System_Management/Threading.html

Is this nonsense gone or not?

Surur


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 2:07:13 PM # Q
I wrote:
the move from DataManager to SQLite is probably going to be something that expands ACCESS's developer community, even if it creates some pain for folks porting their apps to MAX.

I meant pain for Palm developers. Other developers who are accustomed to working with real database engines should have an easier time porting their apps.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 2:10:17 PM # Q
My bad, Surer. You're right that there's a single process that multiple applications can share in their own threads when they're not the active application on Cobalt.

But elsewhere Dianne Hackborn explained that this was indeed all changing with the Linux implementation of the Cobalt middleware. There were actually some performance advantages of the old Cobalt approach (related to faster context switching when multi-tasking) but the new way to do things has each native application running in its own process.

The exception of course is for Garnet apps running in PACE, which runs in a single process of its own and is internally single-threaded as has been the case since the early days of Palm OS.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 2:53:27 PM # Q
I take it this part of the new system is some of your handiwork, Marty?

Nah, I'm an un-person. They're probably going to replace YAFFS (my contribution, in part) with JFFS2, which is the NAND filesystem that comes with MTD. (That's a guess on my part, not an annoucement, Skippy) and the SQLite work was championed by Mike Chen, who deserves all the kudos for what appears to be the only PSRC innovation in ALP.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 2:56:51 PM # Q
Is this nonsense gone or not?

It was still there the day I left.

It's nonsense they're sort of stuck with if they refuse to break the POS 5 and previous model of how Search works, and at last count they were still refusing to do that.

(knowing grin)

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 3:06:37 PM # Q
Nah, I'm an un-person.

But of course you are! You're hanging out here, aren't you?

the SQLite work was championed by Mike Chen, who deserves all the kudos for what appears to be the only PSRC innovation in ALP.

Hats off to Mike, then. That's no small innovation, IMHO. I've been urging folks at PalmSource to move in this direction for years now.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 3:16:05 PM # Q
It's nonsense they're sort of stuck with if they refuse to break the POS 5 and previous model of how Search works, and at last count they were still refusing to do that.

You mean the fact that (if memory serves) Find sends a launch code to every find-registered application on the device in turn so the app can perform its own search on its data.

It seems to me that was a requirement because of the fact that under the old DataManager only the application that created a database had a clue what the structure of a record was. If the DM has been replaced with a real database engine there's no longer a reason to delegate searches to the apps: it should be much easier to just query the database directly. I'd expect the old model for performing searches to be something that lives on only within PACE.

By the way, I don't have any objection at all to the multi-tasking model that requires the developer to specifically code his intention that his app be able to go into the background when another one launches. Good mobile developers know how to save/restore state appropriately at appStop/appStart and have a good idea whether the application is the sort of thing where its presence in the background could serve a useful purpose. Most apps people use aren't going to do anything but waste resources running in a background thread, leading to the kind of memory management nightmares that Windows Mobile users have long complained of (and more recently Nokia 770 users). Make multi-tasking a choice for the developer and his users, not something you ram down everyone's throat by default.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 10:22:40 PM # Q
You mean the fact that (if memory serves) Find sends a launch code to every find-registered application on the device in turn so the app can perform its own search on its data.

It's not just that it sends a launch code, but rather, that it tears down the running ap and starts a new instance of every ap that might be interested in doing the search.

The overhead here is the cost of killing all those aps and restarting them.

Of course, if you worked in a model where processes had some persistence you wouldn't have this problem.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 1:14:53 AM # Q
Yeah, well, like I said, that was the only thing you could do back in the day of 68k. Or in PACE, which presumably is still going to run just a single process with a single application thread. But why for godsakes wouldn't they reimplement Find on the MAX side as a query on the database engine? Or searching files on the file system, looking for ones tagged as having recognized formats? There's no reason to launch an application just to perform a Find if the system knows full well how to search the database itself.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
fanoush @ 2/15/2006 7:40:39 AM # Q
Most apps people use aren't going to do anything but waste resources running in a background thread, leading to the kind of memory management nightmares that Windows Mobile users have long complained of (and more recently Nokia 770 users). Make multi-tasking a choice for the developer and his users, not something you ram down everyone's throat by default.

It is an option in every system. You can voluntarily exit or release memory when your app is minimized in any system. And on N770 there is API for 'hibernating' your application when memory is low (you receive notification to save your state). Most N770 users simply complain that whole big html page with Flash animation won't fit in 64MB. Look at IE or Firefox (or opera on desktop) memory footprint when showing complex page. This is simply impossible task no matter what multitasking system you have. The only problem here is fitting full blown desktop browser with all bells and whistles into 64MB ram total.

As for wasting resources - I really want the browser to keep the rendered page while I am adding contact or memo. The web browser is exactly one type of application where PalmOS mutitasking fails. It is simply insane solution to stop browser application, close connections, save rendered page to database and lately reload and restore everything to the point where you left. No browser I've seen for palmos does this correctly and/or fast.

RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 9:07:51 AM # Q
I agree 100%. The browser is the archetype of an application that needs to run in the background by default when another application is lauched.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
rsc1000 @ 2/15/2006 11:06:55 AM # Q
>>As for wasting resources - I really want the browser to keep the rendered page while I am adding contact or memo. The web browser is exactly one type of application where PalmOS mutitasking fails. It is simply insane solution to stop browser application, close connections, save rendered page to database and lately reload and restore everything to the point where you left. No browser I've seen for palmos does this correctly and/or fast.

...and this can be dealt with fine with the Cobolt - and possibly ALP OS? - model.
A lot of people complained about the paradigm for Cobolt multi-threading UI / background processes and threading. Personally i thought it was the way to go - FINALLY a sensible way to do multitasking efficiently on mobile devices (after all, limited resources AND it's not like you have 3-4 apps visible on screen at once as can be common on the desktop).
I think it is to modern mobile computing what the original Palm OS was in it's day: an eligant, efficient way to do things. That's why palm OS won out over the 'real os' approach that Newton used.
Not that it couldn't use revision: protected memory for each background thread would be nice so that all background threads don't come tumbling down when one bites it.

Oh - and it can't be said enough how lame windows mobile deals with multi-tasking and how lame the 'work-around' was when MS basically admitted their mess-up by muddying things even further in Pocket PC 2002 by switching the 'OK' button to an 'X' - but you never know if the aoo is going to close or minimize (usually minimizes)!!! Unforgivabely LAME and i can't stand PPC to this day because of this and can't believe the world has apparently forgiven this fundamental crippling of the OS. When forced to use one for work - i have to do the 6-tap 'stop-all' step every 20 minutes to keep the pathetic thing from cramping up....'smart minimize' my a$$!


RE: Almost exactly as I said... Cobalt is dead...
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 12:33:21 PM # Q
Well yeah, 64mb max and current processor speeds are definitely cramping the usabilit of these devices. This is why an 18-24 month delay is favorable to the Linux camp, because it means that the hardware will have two more generations of Moore's law effect.

It is funny that 64mb is cramping on these devices when we used to be able to run workstations with good interactivity on 32mb or less.

feature bloat is not your friend

May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??

Foo Fighter @ 2/14/2006 9:31:53 AM # Q
This statement is extremely troubling...

> "ACCESS and PalmSource expect to make the ALP Software Developer Kit (SDK) available to its licensees by the end of this year (2006)."

If the SDK won't be made available until the end of this calendar year, that puts the actual OS ship-date well into 2007. When you factor in the lead time hardware developers need to integrate the new software into their products (usually 12 months), it's quite likely we won't even see ALP hardware until late 2007 (if then) and possibly beyond that...into 2008!

So it's Garnet from here on out...for the next two years. Could this platform be any more dead?

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
hkklife @ 2/14/2006 9:50:22 AM # Q
Well, let's look at the situation here.

EVDO has been hacked onto FrankenGarnet. BT 1.2 wouldn't be a big deal to add...but things like A2DP might be.

VGA support, multi-threading etc. would be nigh impossible to hack onto it.

So, while a THOROUGHLY hacked & cleaned-up (as TVOR has long suggested) Garnet 5.9 would be sufficient to power low-end PDAs and, yes, cheap Treos for the next year or so, there's simply no way it can hang in there COMPETITIVELY through the end of '07 or early '08. In many ways the return of SSS (320*320) has been a blessing for Palm as that's far easier for Garnet to handle than HVGA.

I'd LOVE to see an internal Palm roadmap for the forseeable future. I am willing to bet it includes a trickle of new products with everything other than <$200 PDAs in '07 running WnMob. Expect lots of "undead" models ala T|C/Treo 650 that continue on long after their expiration dates have passed just to give the illusion that Palm's still "supporting" POS.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
twizza @ 2/14/2006 10:22:33 AM # Q
Granted Garnet could do it, but to wait another year would make Palm freak, and effectively probably put them in WM-only mode, or at leat primed to buy mode. Not good lest Access's true intent is to push Palm into the ground and then make do as the OS-du jour for us and many others.

Weidly enough, I look at the Sony E announcement of the W950 another slap in the face to Palm (think LD and Treo coulda been). Tis not a great day to be a fan of Palm it seems (and yet I cannot let mine go; its just a great device).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
hkklife @ 2/14/2006 11:31:07 AM # Q
It looks like Sony is finally starting to get things turned around on their end. They are trimming the fat from their offerings, moving SORTA away from proprietary/closed standards, and being a little swifter to respond to the upheavals of the marketplace. 4gb of flash in ANY device...especially a multi-function Walkman phone is a very, very good omen of things to come from them...and a very, very bad harbinger for Palm and their stillborn Microdrives/LD.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:09:33 PM # Q
Did anyone notice that end of 2006 is a 6 month slip from what Mike Kelley was telling reporters recently?



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
naio21 @ 2/14/2006 4:12:35 PM # Q
I suppose very few developers will want to play with this new SDK when launched for not more than mind mastoorbation purposes.

I don't believe they will put time (and time is money) recreating their applications from zero unless the first REAL ALP device hit the shelves.

Cobalt's vapor burned Palmsource's arse pretty hard. It will take a great amount of time for them to regain the developers community confidence...

Ivan

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 4:22:26 PM # Q
Sadly, I agree. It's been a long, cold winter for a lot of Palm developers and I know that many are looking around trying to figure out what's next. For many, this announcement isn't exactly full of sunshine--at least not for the short- to medium-term.

The only consolation is that the general mobile software market seems to still be gathering steam--at least in the area of vertical apps that my company focuses on. When/if those devices do arrive I think there'll be a very good upside opportunity for 3rd party developers.

Like I keep saying, we're still just at the beginning of a long interesting journey toward increasingly personal computing. I think before long we'll come to see that we're in an era that's a very interesting time to be a software developer.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP/PalmLinux YEARS AWAY...no devices in 2007??
freakout @ 2/14/2006 4:46:03 PM # Q
"Did anyone notice that end of 2006 is a 6 month slip from what Mike Kelley was telling reporters recently?"

I'm sure TVoR did. ;)


Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Slip slidin' away...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 4:47:16 PM # Q
Simon & Garfunkel said it best.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Good news, bad news

cervezas @ 2/14/2006 9:26:39 AM # Q
Well, the bad news isn't terribly unexpected: it's going to take until the end of the year for ALP to ship to licensees.

The good news is that seems to be the only bad news. Some interesting revelations in this:

* ALP is going to ship with its own SQL database engine. That'll be very nice for business applications.

* ALP uses GTK+, same as PDE and Maemo. So it's running an X Server. Linux developers should be pleased and I expect we'll get some great new software ported to ALP as a result.

* HotSync isn't going to be replaced by SyncML as was previously rumored to be the case. Good plan.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
Foo Fighter @ 2/14/2006 10:11:47 AM # Q
> "it's going to take until the end of the year for ALP to ship to licensees."

Uh..no. The SDK will ship the end of this year. The OS will ship after that point. Which puts it well into 2007.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 10:42:10 AM # Q
Shipping the SDK *is* shipping the OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Good news, bad news
Texonite @ 2/14/2006 12:35:59 PM # Q
David, on the diagram you mentioned below I can clearly see words "Sync ML" as well as "New Exchg Mgr".
So where'd you get that thing about HotSync and why do you think it's good?

And btw, what's the good thing in SyncML?

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 12:59:41 PM # Q
texonite wrote:
David, on the diagram you mentioned below I can clearly see words "Sync ML" as well as "New Exchg Mgr".
So where'd you get that thing about HotSync and why do you think it's good?

I saw that. It does look like they're also building in a SyncML client, but the press release specifically talks about leveraging PalmSource technology including HotSync and Palm Desktop (guess they'll need a new name for that, heh).

And btw, what's the good thing in SyncML?

Notice that it says SyncML DM/DS. DS is data sync. That's an XML-based protocol for synchronizing application data that will work over the air, unlike HotSync. DM is device management. Properly configured, that will enable admins to remotely manage software on the device, querying its state, installing or uninstalling software, perhaps locking the device down or deleting sensitive data if it's been reported stolen. That kind of stuff.

SyncML is rapidly becoming the new standard for over-the-air synchronization.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:06:56 PM # Q
In answer to the other question: the good thing about HotSync is that it's familiar, stable, and just plain works well for desktop synchronization. Especially compared to the likes of ActiveSync or Nokia's Sync Suite! :-P I'm glad to know it's not going away for now.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Good news, bad news
Texonite @ 2/14/2006 1:07:03 PM # Q
More on that diagram:
I quite not like the letters DRM on it :(

Cmon, I'm waiting for you! Cobalt, come here!
RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:09:45 PM # Q
I quite not like the letters DRM on it

You'll like it if the operators say you'll like it! Seriously, if you want devices to ship with this OS you should expect this to be on there, whatever else you might think about DRM.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:13:26 PM # Q
ALP uses GTK+, same as PDE and Maemo. So it's running an X Server. L

GTK+ does not imply X server. There's a direct-to-framebuffer version of GTK+.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Good news, bad news
Texonite @ 2/14/2006 1:14:37 PM # Q
So, i assume SyncML is more Enterprise than a home technology?

P.S. my signature seems a bit outdated ;)

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:20:31 PM # Q
PenguinPowered wrote:
GTK+ does not imply X server. There's a direct-to-framebuffer version of GTK+.

Interesting. Didn't know that. What are the implications as far as porting apps from the X version of GTK?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:27:35 PM # Q
I'm not a GUI guy, so I can't really say off the top of my head.

I'd guess that "pure" GTK+ applications will port easily, but that apps that use X features other than GTK will be a pain to port.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Good news, bad news
Foo Fighter @ 2/14/2006 1:35:46 PM # Q
I'm still a bit confused about the roadmap for application development. Does this mean we'll see the end of PRC and PDB files, with applications written natively in GTK or Max? Or will that continue unchanged?

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Good news, bad news
hkklife @ 2/14/2006 1:40:44 PM # Q
So if Hotsync isn't going away is it going to be beefed up with more/better support for things like syncing over BT/wi-fi/cellular connections?

How about native Softick Card Export-style functionality and/or all Palms (not just the LD) appearing as a Universal Mass Storage device in Windows?

David's right in Hotsync being far superior to any of the Nokia/Moto takes on synchronization...despite its age, Hotsync just plain WORKS (not that fast but still).

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:41:07 PM # Q
Does this mean we'll see the end of PRC and PDB files?

I'm sure all the 3rd party developers are screaming "yes" please! It would simplify support if the executables are recognizably different for MAX API apps. The classic Palm apps that run in PACE will still be the same ol' same ol', though.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:44:41 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
So if Hotsync isn't going away is it going to be beefed up with more/better support for things like syncing over BT/wi-fi/cellular connections?

HotSync already works over BT->desktop, but I presume you're talking about BT->cellphone. And I suspect the answer to that is, no. Over-the-air sync is where SyncML comes in.

How about native Softick Card Export-style functionality and/or all Palms (not just the LD) appearing as a Universal Mass Storage device in Windows?

I have no idea. Nothing here to indicate one way or the other.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
AdamaDBrown @ 2/14/2006 1:58:45 PM # Q
Shipping the SDK *is* shipping the OS.

To licensees, maybe, but not to actual people. As far as the user is concerned, the OS doesn't ship until there are devices running on it.

RE: Good news, bad news
SeldomVisitor @ 2/14/2006 2:18:21 PM # Q
I've never heard anyone say an SDK is an OS (*) before - how interesting!

Is this a PALM-thingee?

[yes, the above means I most-oh-so-humbly disagree that "an SDK is an OS"...]

======

(*) Or more generically, "an SDK is the product".

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 2:19:17 PM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote:
As far as the user is concerned, the OS doesn't ship until there are devices running on it.

Of course. According to LinuxDevices.com the demand for this is especially strong with the European wireless operators. I'm thinking maybe mLinux is going to target the East Asian market (already is, actually), Europe gets ALP, and North America gets... probably 8 more years of Garnet! :-P

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 2:25:21 PM # Q
I've never heard anyone say an SDK is an OS (*) before - how interesting!

An OS (as opposed to an embedded system) is a system designed to run third party applications written against a published API that is often referred to as an SDK (software development kit). I think it's fair to say that until you have the SDK you can't call it an OS.

Another way to look at this is that you can't deliver the SDK without the underlying system being able to run--in an emulator/simulator, if nothing else. It wouldn't be an SDK if you did because you wouldn't be develop/test/debug software with it.

Either way, the two are inseparable as far as I'm concerned. Can you name an OS that was released without an SDK or an SDK that was released without an OS?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 2:46:45 PM # Q
Can you name an OS that was released without an SDK

Lisa, or, more recently, the original MacOS.

or an SDK that was released without an OS?

There are OS independent SDKs. That, supposedly, is what QTopia is all about.

"OS" has never been a clearly defined term. ;)

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Good news, bad news
naio21 @ 2/14/2006 4:22:00 PM # Q
As long as I know Cobalt runs pretty well in emulators and *has* its own SDK.

So where is Cobalt? The only device equipped with this OS I know was bought by my cousin from Vaporland... :-P

Ivan

RE: Good news, bad news
Foo Fighter @ 2/14/2006 4:43:56 PM # Q
> "To licensees, maybe, but not to actual people. As far as the user is concerned, the OS doesn't ship until there are devices running on it."

Therein lies the crux of the problem. Even if Access does manage to ship the OS by the end end of this year - avoiding delays - it will be up to twelve months beyond that before we see shipping devices running this entirely new operating system. That puts ALP well into 2007, and that's looking at the situation with great optimism. 2008 is more realistic, especially where cellular devices are concerned because you're dealing with two parallel development cycles; the hardware vendor's product development cycle, and the carrier testing and network integration phase - which can tack on several more months of lead time.

The other, more worrying, issue is that I'm reading that ALP will look nothing like the current PalmOS GUI we're all accustomed to. While I've been a big advocate in revitalizing and improving the badly aging Palm interface, I wasn't planning on chucking it out the window entirely, and I'm afraid that may be what we're up against. When the first images of ALP begin to emerge we may be startled by the changes.

All in all today's news is extremely bitter sweet. More bitter than sweet though.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Good news, bad news
Scott R @ 2/15/2006 10:07:19 AM # Q
My interpretation/expectation based on how this press release is worded is that they (hopefully) will have an SDK and some version of the OS released by the end of the year. While I would expect that the APIs to be frozen by then, I would not necessarily interpret this to mean that they're commiting to having the OS gold by then. Of course, it's all academic, seeing as they didn't even commit to the end of the year anyway.

The bottom line is that they needed to announce something and soon because they've been looking pretty dead for the last year and Microsoft was even a keynote speaker at this event. It sounds like they've changed course pretty significantly (yet again), and I don't see how any developer could get excited about a platform this far off. In comparison...what was the length of time between when Nokia came out of nowhere and announced Maemo to when they actually had a product released that was running it? Here we have an announcement that maybe by the end of the year developers can start playing around with it but there's no guarantee that any hardware company is even going to license it.

If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on Nokia tweaking their S60 thumbboard-based smartphone designs to near perfection and getting some penetration in the CDMA space and/or with Microsoft releasing that supposedly super-duper all-new UI experience for Windows Mobile before we'll see a smartphone available for purchase that runs on ALP.

Other possibilities include Palm building their own all-new OS/GUI (likely Linux-based) and one or more other companies coming out of nowhere (Android?) with somethin' special.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 12:38:42 PM # Q
In comparison...what was the length of time between when Nokia came out of nowhere and announced Maemo to when they actually had a product released that was running it?

If I recall correctly, 3 months, but it's not a fair comparison. Maemo and the N770 are completely new to Nokia and don't have a direct impact on their main business, so the full project could be run in stealth mode until it was ready. It looks like it took about 24 months for Maemo to be ready enough to use.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 3:05:04 PM # Q
Update on ALP's use of GTK+:
The ALP device demoed at 3GSM was running GTK+ with X Windows, not the direct-to-framebuffer version of GTK+. But according to PalmSource developer Jesse Donaldson, there hasn't been a final decision as to whether that's the way they're going to go with ALP. Maemo and GPE (also GTK-based) both run an X Server, which has some advantages (easy porting of many existing apps comes to mind). But there are concerns about performance.

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2006-February/msg00120.html

From what Jesse says it sounds like PalmSource expects to be quite involved with open source GTK+ development and that the "optimizations" that are mentioned in the ALP schematic I posted earlier are contributions they plan to give back to that developer community. (Of course it also says it's too early to know what those optimizations will be.)

Increasingly this OS is being built using components that are in active open source development: first the kernel itself and various kernel services (proprietary Cobalt -> OSS Linux); then the code for Binder (a BeOS component architecture that is still part of ALP) was released under an open source license; now the GUI toolkit that the MAX framework was built with has changed from proprietary to OSS.

I can't speak to the technical merits of these decisions, but from a business standpoint these seem like smart moves by PalmSource. They help establish PalmSource as a leader in the open source commmunity. They help consolidate mobile Linux efforts into some defacto standards that it seems could make easier the adoption of explicit standards to prevent fragmentation of effort. Moving more toward OSS also potentially reduces the amount of maintainance that PalmSource will have to do themselves to keep ALP bug free and competitive. Over time they are getting more and more Linux developers behind larger and larger parts of the project.

Mobile Linux really needs a champion--a major RedHat-like player that can rally disparate developers to align and unify their efforts around some agreed standards. That's the only way it will be really successful competing against commercial giants like MS and Symbian. With the ALP announcement I'm feeling more hopeful that ACCESS and PalmSource can play this role.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 5:27:52 PM # Q
You don't establish yourself in the open source community by being a user of open source.

You establish yourself in the open source community by being the developer of an open source package that gets heavily used.

Unfortunately for Access, none of the open source components mentioned are currently being developed by PalmSource. We shall have to see if they can really manage to add any value to gtk+.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 6:19:45 PM # Q
You establish yourself in the open source community by being the developer of an open source package that gets heavily used.

I agree. My point is that if PalmSource is going to put energy into developing a UI toolkit they're better off putting it into something open like GTK+ then something proprietary like Picasso.

Unfortunately for Access, none of the open source components mentioned are currently being developed by PalmSource.

Really? PalmSource and CMS havn't contributed anything to the Linux kernel or kernel services? power management? boot-time? file system? OpenBinder? what about the SQLite port? I'm not arguing--I have no way to evaluate the level of OSS contribution at PalmSource--but I've been under the impression that there was a fair amount of OSS work to be done in areas like these and that PalmSource was going there.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 8:23:50 PM # Q
Yes. No. No. No. No. Yes. No.

Open Binder is the only thing of any signficance that they've contributed, and they are not the principle developer of it any more.

I tossed some driver changes and some filesystem fixes over the wall when I was there. They've got some more driver changes and maybe some power management they can toss over the wall eventually.

In the OSS community, that's not even enough to establish me as an individual contributor, let alone an entire company as a player.

Lefty very much wants to contribute to OSS and for PSRC to be a good citizen. He's championed that from the start of the Linux project. I wish him the best luck, because it would be an excellent demonstration of a good interaction, but I don't think the expediencies of the industry are going to allow him to contribute very much.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Well said, Marty.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 9:12:33 PM # Q
You don't establish yourself in the open source community by being a user of open source.

You establish yourself in the open source community by being the developer of an open source package that gets heavily used.

Unfortunately for Access, none of the open source components mentioned are currently being developed by PalmSource. We shall have to see if they can really manage to add any value to gtk+.

Precisely. Right now, PalmSource are little more than parasites trying to live off the hard work of the Open Source community. While that may be a clever business decision if almost all they need can be plucked off the shelf from Open Soure or if PalmSource is Machiavellian enough to manipulate Open Source developers like marionettes, I doubt this will work out as smoothly as PalmSource anticipates.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 9:21:18 PM # Q
Lefty very much wants to contribute to OSS and for PSRC to be a good citizen. He's championed that from the start of the Linux project. I wish him the best luck, because it would be an excellent demonstration of a good interaction, but I don't think the expediencies of the industry are going to allow him to contribute very much.

That's a damned shame. On the other hand, I know how it is. I've been working for several months for a client that has been more than willing to let us push the envelope with an open source framework (Eclipse, in this case) and contribute features and bug fixes back to the community. The team has a guy with committer status and we have what from a programmer's standpoint has been an enviable opportunity to make significant contributions to one of the major new features of Eclipse 3.2. It's exciting, but... it's also cost us a lot of time. Time that we were initially successful in justifying to the suits with the usual arguments for being open source, but which now is getting very difficult to justify as deadlines start to close in. And I consider ourselves to have been extremely lucky to have far-sighted execs who understood the benefit to the company long term.

When you contribute code to open source--major stuff at least--you can't just "throw it over the wall" and not deal with the issues that other users of the code bring up. The bigger the contribution, the more you're seen as being responsible for it, for making the big decisions when they come up, and the more time you spend dealing with concerns that maybe you didn't have to deal with for your own purposes. Yes, you get contributions back that benefit you. But if you're really being a champion like I was talking about, you have to have the time and inclination to be somewhat selfless. Or someone has to pay you to be that selfless (as I firmly believe IBM should do for my team!)

So, I can certainly see how at this moment in time it's difficult for PalmSource to contribute as they should. I still say that for their ultimate success they've got to fight mightily to get to the place where they are taking this leadership role. I'd like to think that ACCESS would have the resources to make this possible, but from what you say I wonder if they'll see the wisdom in it. I hope the case is being made at every opportunity.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 9:21:35 PM # Q
I tossed some driver changes and some filesystem fixes over the wall when I was there. They've got some more driver changes and maybe some power management they can toss over the wall eventually.

Did you really "toss [them] over the wall" or did you leave them inside a wooden horse outside the gates of Troy the Open Source community?

Lefty very much wants to contribute to OSS and for PSRC to be a good citizen. He's championed that from the start of the Linux project.

Wow. It's surprising to hear you think someone in Schlesinger's position at PalmSource would be so naïve.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Good news, bad news
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 1:57:30 AM # Q
I don't think Lefty's naive at all, Skippy. I doubt anyone whose seen him hand you your head here several times would thinks so either.

One can be sophisticated and still champion open source. Not, I suspect, that you could fathom the reasons why that can be a good thing for one's stockholders.

It'll be interesting to see how Google reconciles their secretiveness with their desire to do no evil with respect to OSS once the electric sheep get finished dreaming.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Good news, bad news
Sam H @ 2/16/2006 1:03:11 PM # Q
Shipping the SDK *is* shipping the OS.

Beersie, does that mean our bet holds good until six months after the SDK ships?

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 1:05:15 PM # Q
does that mean our bet holds good until six months after the SDK ships?

I'm a reasonable man. I'll even accept a personal check.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Good news, bad news
Sam H @ 2/16/2006 2:11:21 PM # Q
I'm a reasonable man. I'll even accept a personal check.

With overconfidence like that you could get a job at PalmSource.

Let the waiting begin!

RE: Good news, bad news
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 2:24:13 PM # Q
With overconfidence like that you could get a job at PalmSource.

Hmmm... they've got that great Indian buffet across the street... and I hear they pick you up at the airport in a white limo... and put you up in this nice private bungalow.... Still they'd never have me. ;-)

Truthfully, I'm thinking more all the time that Moto is going to sleep out the whole native application scene and just suck on the Java teat for as long as it can. So, I'll probably lose our bet, but it'll be fun to see what happens with ALP anyway.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser

cervezas @ 2/14/2006 10:29:45 AM # Q
Here's a diagram that shows a lot of the details:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/access_palmsource_alp_arch_diag.gif

Among other things it disproves Surer's theory about NetFront being the main application launcher. NetFront Dynamic Menu (NFDM) provides a "home screen" but the application launcher runs on top of the MAX UI Application Framework and is designed to launch any of the four kinds of apps that ALP can run: GTK app, Java apps, Palm OS 68k apps, and MAX (think Protein) apps. Sounds nice.

It looks like as far as "NetFrontOS" is concerned, the only browser-based apps for this platform are created by the operators themselves. Early to tell, but it's not looking good for TVoR's theory that the NetFront API will be where all the action is.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Surur @ 2/14/2006 11:27:26 AM # Q

Based on that graphic I concede that the launcher wont be the browser. You have to admit however that the home screen will be browser based, and like the today screen on WM will be the focus of user interaction on the device.

Also note that POS shares equal footing with Java. Also you still have not shown that Max UI=Cobalt.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Dr Opinion @ 2/14/2006 11:38:36 AM # Q
> "...it's not looking good for TVoR's theory..."

Oh, there's a surprise.

Not. :)

Sure, Voice of Dumbness gets a lot of brown nosing from hk, geego and Surur, but tell me: can anyone recall a *single* time one of Voice of Dumbness's gazillion conspiracy theories were actually correct?

Palm is buying Palmsource?
Palm split was an elaborate fiancial scam?
Palm TX is less powerful than a clie?
Netfront is going to be an OS?

Just one?

I thought so. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
twizza @ 2/14/2006 11:47:38 AM # Q
Thanks David for that link. That seems to make more sense to me. The only thing that I notice is that the PACE layer seems just as plugin as Java is now on PalmOS devices. Doesnt bode well for system speed I guess. But interesting.

It also seems that for the most part that the PalmOS is basically thrown out, with the MAX apps and framework getting the most play here. I wonder how that will play out with 3rd party developers who are not so privy to wanting to work within carrier constraints.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 11:54:22 AM # Q
Thanks David for that link. That seems to make more sense to me. The only thing that I notice is that the PACE layer seems just as plugin as Java is now on PalmOS devices. Doesnt bode well for system speed I guess. But interesting.

The fact that it is on the same level as the JRE doesn't tell you anything about speed. The speed/resources concern I have is based on the fact that this uses GTK+, an X Windows-based toolkit. When they say "optimized" I hope they really mean it. On the up-side, if Nokia starts pushing out a stream of interesting devices with the GTK-based maemo platform there could be a pretty nice ecosystem of Linux developers who write apps for ALP + maemo + GPE.

It also seems that for the most part that the PalmOS is basically thrown out, with the MAX apps and framework getting the most play here. I wonder how that will play out with 3rd party developers who are not so privy to wanting to work within carrier constraints.

Remember, "Palm OS" is above all an API. If your app's code conforms to the API you can compile it using the appropriate SDK and it will run. That's what API means: it's a contract with the developer that their code will work if it follows certain rules, without the developer having to know what components are humming away underneath their app. The Protein API was designed to support the new capabilities of a multi-tasking OS with protected memory, stream-based IO, OpenGL-based graphics, schema databases, etc while still being close enough to the old Palm OS API to make porting fairly simple. I don't think there's going to be any big reason for ACCESS to break that Cobalt API since the fundamental elements of the modernized system are the same.

Even if they do have a somewhat different API from Cobalt, that's not necessarily going to be a lot of skin off any developers nose, as there aren't too many developers who ported their Palm apps to Cobalt in the first place, AFAIK. The critical question here is whether it ships on a lot of devices, not whether it is "Palm OS."

Try to stop thinking about this MAX framework being "Palm OS 7" and think instead in terms of how many Palm developers will jump on board to give you the apps you want on this new platform. ACCESS has every reason to make it an easy migration for folks with Palm OS skills, so if it's a good system it will deliver on the things you expect from Palm OS and take its place without you feeling the loss.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
gfunkmagic @ 2/14/2006 12:02:45 PM # Q
>>>>>Application Framework and is designed to launch any of the four kinds of apps that ALP can run: GTK app, Java apps, Palm OS 68k apps, and MAX (think Protein) apps. Sounds nice...

Very interesting. So APLOS (i.e, dog food os) will now have 4 different applicaton development tracks for devs to choose from?! I assume this is a good thing right?

PalmOS 68k - legacy palmos apps
MaxUI - Cobalt apps
Java
GTK

So java will now be integrated into the OS and separate java plugin will not be necessary?

--------------------
Gaurav

Current devices: Treo 650 + Axim X50v
Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600

Moderator, Treocentral

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 12:15:57 PM # Q
guarav wrote:
So APLOS (i.e, dog food os) will now have 4 different applicaton development tracks for devs to choose from?! I assume this is a good thing right?

Yep and yep. All launched from a unified MAX-based launcher application. Plus there may be the presumed fifth option: writing browser-based apps that run in NetFront. That will attract a totally different developer community from the others, if it attracts developers at all. I'm not too interested in going back to writing web apps, personally. For the time being ACCESS isn't saying anything about this way to build apps for their platform.

So java will now be integrated into the OS and separate java plugin will not be necessary?

"Integrated" is a relative term. It'll be there at the option of the manufacturers and operators, just as it is with Garnet. Whether you can add it yourself if it doesn't ship with it, I don't know. But Java's cheap and expected to be on modern phones, so I'm sure it will ship pretty universally now.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
twizza @ 2/14/2006 12:35:04 PM # Q
That sounds like a good idea on one end, but why support so much. Will the MAX side of things be more or less compromised if a person decides to run a Java app, PalmOS PIM, and access the native NF at the same time. Seems a lil risky, thuogh I do understand supporting them all now and cutting it down later is probably more the point.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
palmato @ 2/14/2006 1:01:15 PM # Q
I think licencees will be able to pick they modules that best suit their needs. Access will push max but at the same time they'll give a wider range of options to their customers.

--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keed two profiles?
RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Surur @ 2/14/2006 1:05:43 PM # Q
Sounds like this might be quite resource heavy (processor and RAM).

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:19:35 PM # Q
It would be naive to describe MAX as being Cobalt.

And yes, it is resource heavy, but that's ok, because by the time it's available, two more generations of Moore's law growth will have passed.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 1:27:08 PM # Q
It would be naive to describe MAX as being Cobalt.

It would be a disappointment to describe MAX as being Cobalt. We're all hoping for something that will fare much, much better in the eyes of device manufacturers and wireless operators.

Like I said, I don't even think Palm developers will care if the API is somewhat different from Cobalt. It's not like there are a lot of us who spent the time porting our apps over from the Garnet SDK. All we care about is (1) does it ship on a good number of devices? (2) does it take two weeks to port a Palm application or two months? and (3) are there reasonably good development tools? Linux hackers won't even care about #3, just give 'em their GCC and they're happy.

Any way, I will be curious to see how MAX differs from Cobalt. The 2007 DevCon should be interesting.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
AdamaDBrown @ 2/14/2006 2:01:33 PM # Q
It would be naive to describe MAX as being Cobalt.

Tell that to the guys who are claiming that this is the miracle resurrection of Cobalt. :)

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 2:17:41 PM # Q
Tell that to the guys who are claiming that this is the miracle resurrection of Cobalt.

Those voices are in your head, Adama. The rest of us can't hear them, OK?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 2:43:58 PM # Q
Any way, I will be curious to see how MAX differs from Cobalt.

The difference won't be so much night versus day as they'll be dusk versus dawn.

The 2007 DevCon should be interesting.

There's going to be one? Quick, someone comp me a pass. ;)


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
AdamaDBrown @ 2/14/2006 3:03:19 PM # Q
Those voices are in your head, Adama. The rest of us can't hear them, OK?

Well, that was quite unneccessarily rude.

For the record, my statement was aimed at Doc Op, who had the following to say in response to asking where Cobalt was in this new OS.

MAX is derived from the cobalt layer. Duh. :)

So try looking before you shoot, eh? This isn't a Vice Presidential hunting trip.

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 3:37:55 PM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote:
Well, that was quite unneccessarily rude.

Sorry. I do sometimes take on a rough edge from hanging out in the usual brawling atmosphere here. But Doc Op was surely right: I doubt very much that MAX was developed out of whole cloth; it's almost certainly derived from the Cobalt middleware. That's always been PalmSource's claim and I have no reason to think otherwise. In any case it's quite a different claim from someone saying Cobalt has been "resurrected," which was the straw man you were arguing with.

This isn't a Vice Presidential hunting trip.

Now who's being rude? I'm sure the VP's "best intelligence" was that Mr. Wittington was an Al Qaeda operative in disguise and that he was acting in what he legitimately believed was the countries best interest by trying to blow the guy's head off. Besides, if you want the nation to be secure from terrorism you're always going to have to shoot a few innocents. ;-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
hkklife @ 2/14/2006 5:04:28 PM # Q
"Sorry. I do sometimes take on a rough edge from hanging out in the usual brawling atmosphere here."

Brawling? BRAWLING? You must've been spending some cold winter nights with Bubba Steve's Wifey, Beersie! ;-)

In all seriousness, I'd wager my gut instict now by saying that whatever PalmSource/Access CLAIMS right now about bits'n bolts being lifted out of Cobalt is just their way of trying to put a positive spin on that debacle. At any rate...it's too early to tell one way or the other. But, judging by their very lax standards for considering a licensee "active" on their website, I'm assuming the above.

If/when down the road the technical types here can verify how much/little was lifted from the corpse of Cobalt I'm certain they will comment with great vigor.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Keep hacking PalmSource to pieces, Marty Fouts
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 11:20:40 PM # Q
It would be naive to describe MAX as being Cobalt.

And yes, it is resource heavy, but that's ok, because by the time it's available, two more generations of Moore's law growth will have passed.


As I said before, it will take at least another 18 - 24 months for PalmSource to produce a next-generation OS. Hearing you admit this publicly is not exactly helping PalmSource's attempts to spin this announcement in a positive light.

They really should just stop development and wait until 2011 when 4 GHz mobile CPUs will be able to run real desktops OSes with ease. Then all Access would need to do is license the next-generation version of Microsoft Windows and integrate NetFront into that.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Beersy + BubbaSteve's Brawlin' Wife?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 11:33:34 PM # Q
Brawling? BRAWLING? You must've been spending some cold winter nights with Bubba Steve's Wifey, Beersie! ;-)

The sad part is she could kick Beersy's sorry a$$ with one hand tied behind her back:

http://www.angryredplanet.com/~hackbod/rodney/story.html


Beersy getting p0Wn3d: http://www.angryredplanet.com/~hackbod/rodney/rodney22.jpg

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 2:06:02 AM # Q
As I said before, it will take at least another 18 - 24 months for PalmSource to produce a next-generation OS.

Skippy, in recent days you've said everything from six months to many years. About the only thing you haven't guessed at is geologic eras.

Hearing you admit this publicly is not exactly helping PalmSource's attempts to spin this announcement in a positive light.

Oh yeah, that's right, you've already shown that math's not your strong suit. They started a year ago, skippy. They've just announced they'll need another year. There's your 18-24 months.

I haven't admitted anything that's not public plan of record at Access.

By the way, Skippy, in your 'deep' analysis, you've missed the obvious again. It's amazing how you keep missing such huge factors, especially when Access has done everything short of put neon signs on them to point them out.



May You Live in Interesting Times

For ex-PalmSource codemonkey, Marty Fouts:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 9:50:24 PM # Q
>>>As I said before, it will take at least another 18 - 24 months for PalmSource to produce a next-generation OS.

Skippy, in recent days you've said everything from six months to many years. About the only thing you haven't guessed at is geologic eras.

As always, your "unique" version of reality is a joy to behold, Marty.

Regular readers here at Palminfocenter know I said all along that PalmSource would not make their claimed PalmLinux completion date of Summer 2006 (because that date looked like a blatant attempt to deceive). 2007 (and most likely 2008) was the earliest E.T.A. for PalmLinux.

Now that NetFrontLinux is the "New Plan", everything (and nothing) has changed. 2008 would be an optimistic goal for this OS showing up. I would not even be surprised if - like Cobalt - NetFrontLinux NEVER shows up, and Access goes bankrupt. In fact, I'll go on record for predicting that Access will be out of business by 2009. You heard it here first, folks.

>>>Hearing you admit this publicly is not exactly helping PalmSource's attempts to spin this announcement in a positive light.

Oh yeah, that's right, you've already shown that math's not your strong suit. They started a year ago, skippy. They've just announced they'll need another year. There's your 18-24 months.

I haven't admitted anything that's not public plan of record at Access.

My math has proven to be a lot more accurate than MartyMath. Keep posting here though, Marty. Perhaps someone out there will not fail to see through your mendacity.

And Access/PalmSource will have bupkis to deliver even if you wait until February 2007. If you believe otherwise, you are a fool. (Evidently, you believe otherwise...)

By the way, Skippy, in your 'deep' analysis, you've missed the obvious again. It's amazing how you keep missing such huge factors, especially when Access has done everything short of put neon signs on them to point them out.

Marty, the only thing that's "amazing" is the fact that you STILL don't seem to understand when you've been shown to be a buffoon. Have someone read over the threads you've posted to and ask them to explain this to you.

Take care, Buddy. May the Lord have mercy upon your soul.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 10:34:20 PM # Q
Regular readers here at Palminfocenter know I said all along that PalmSource would not make their claimed PalmLinux completion date of Summer 2006 (because that date looked like a blatant attempt to deceive). 2007 (and most likely 2008) was the earliest E.T.A. for PalmLinux.

Ah, Skippy, you're funniest when you're trying to confuse people about what you've said.

You couldn't have said all along that PSRC wouldn't make their claimed completion date of summer '06, because that wasn't PSRC's claim all along.

But don't take too much credit for whatever it is you did claim. Claiming that a vendor isn't going to hit a schedule is about as risky as claiming that the sun will rise tomorrow.



May You Live in Interesting Times

So is this how Marty speaks "The Truth"? Hilarious.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 10:40:55 PM # Q
>>>As I said before, it will take at least another 18 - 24 months for PalmSource to produce a next-generation OS.

Skippy, in recent days you've said everything from six months to many years. About the only thing you haven't guessed at is geologic eras.

Well what have we here?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8373#118396

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/9/2006 9:25:36 PM #

I said all along that PalmLinux (Cobalt leftovers + Linux kernel) was dead and that NetFrontLinux "NFL" (NetFront + PACE + even fewer pieces of Cobalt + Linux kernel) was the "new plan". Access realized PalmLinux was going to take too long and would not bring anything adequately competitive to the market. Thanks for confirming this, but you might want to re-read your NDA before PalmSource's lawyers rip you a new one.

Unfortunately, NetFrontLinux is not going to come close to meeting the original development timeline proposed for PalmLinux. The new roadmap will lead stralght to the Sea of Red Ink, right next to Cobalt Town. I feel Access weren't being realistic if they thought they could quickly integrate NetFront and PalmLinux into a STABLE OS in less than 2 years, especially with so few skilled codemonkeys.

NetFrontLinux will probably need another 18 - 24 months worth of development before being worth risking NetFront's good name on it. DoCoMo might be big enough to afford to blow $30 - 40 million on a gamble on such a long shot, but they aren't stupid and won't stick with NetFrontLinux when it becomes apparent that it's vaporware. Windows Mobile and less ambitious custom Linux platform development is not exactly going to stop over the next 24 months and they're already here NOW and shipping on REAL phones. NetFrontLinux is yet another pipe dream along the lines of Copeland, BeOS and Cobalt. PalmSource/Access don't even have enough codemonkeys to realistically take a shot at getting out a rock solid NetFrontLinux before the smartphone industry has standardized on other platforms.

**************************************************************************


You're just TOO funny, Marty.

Don't get hurt, Buddy. I don't want to see anything happen to my pet codemonkey...


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 10:52:06 PM # Q
Why yes, Skippy, that is one of the various claims you've made in these pages in the past few days.

You can skip the quotes. We've all grown used to the way you write many claims and then later recall only the ones that suit your current whim.


May You Live in Interesting Times

See Marty run. See Marty hide. Marty runs and hides.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 10:57:40 PM # Q
Why yes, Skippy, that is one of the various claims you've made in these pages in the past few days.

You can skip the quotes. We've all grown used to the way you write many claims and then later recall only the ones that suit your current whim.


Feel free to post a qoute backing up what you claimed I had said, Marty. I DARE YOU.


You really are a mendacious little piece of ****[*].

[*corn]

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Wow. Even MORE less-than-honest statements by Marty??? Awww
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 11:03:55 PM # Q
You couldn't have said all along that PSRC wouldn't make their claimed completion date of summer '06, because that wasn't PSRC's claim all along.

http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT6402459179.html

http://tinyurl.com/apefn

Don't let a few FACTS get in the way of your endless B.S., Marty.


TVoR


P.S. I'd LOVE to see a cage match between you and Mike Kelley. Let me know when you finally find your cojones...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 11:49:20 PM # Q
Jeez Skippy, someone touch a nerve?

It's cute when you rant like this, but 5 increasingly shrill posts in a few minutes?

Yon need to get away from the help desk and see one of the docs, Skip, you're losing it.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty, why are you STILL running from the truth? Why?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 1:23:06 AM # Q
Jeez Skippy, someone touch a nerve?

It's cute when you rant like this, but 5 increasingly shrill posts in a few minutes?

Yon need to get away from the help desk and see one of the docs, Skip, you're losing it.

Is this the best response you can come up with, Marty? You've posted an avalanche of B.S. here, yet when confronted with the truth all you can do is make thes feeble attacks on me? Wow.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 3:24:41 AM # Q
The best I can come up with, Skippy? No. Better than you deserve? by far.

anyway, it's hillarious that you of all people would make an issue out of truth, when you wouldn't recognize the truth if it walked into that basement of yours and smacked you up the side of the head with the clue bat.

now be a good little troll and crawl back under your rock. the adults are talking about things far beyond your ken.

May You Live in Interesting Times

And STILL Marty Fouts keeps yapping and spewing more B.S.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 6:25:36 AM # Q
Marty, why are you still running from the truth? I just posted links proving everything you said is utter B.S. You are so full of shi* it's no wonder it's now backing up and spewing out of your mouth every time you say anything.

It's time for you to apologize and beg forgiveness, Marty. Beg.

- Your 0wN3r

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Feature Phone OS was promised for summer, not PLinux
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 10:39:09 AM # Q
You couldn't have said all along that PSRC wouldn't make their claimed completion date of summer '06, because that wasn't PSRC's claim all along.

Although you can find places where PalmSource talked about Summer '06, you had to be careful to read exactly what they were talking about, and sometimes I think there was some misdirection. The plan I recall being announced around the time of the '05 DevCon (as confirmed again by Albert Chu today) was to release two platforms this year. The one that they suggested they'd release in the summer was the low-end PalmSource Feature Phone OS, not the Cobalt-based "Palm OS for Linux". There were indications that that first release might not run Palm OS applications at all, but merely have "data-compatible" PIM applications so people could easily graduate from their PalmSource Feature Phone to the smartphone platform. (This hasn't been discussed much here, but here's a link that indicates I'm not the only one who heard them say this: http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119914,00.asp)

My recollection is that the Cobalt-based OS was promised for the Fall of this year, not Summer. So, what the announcement has done is not so much to set back the release date for the new OS that the denizens of PIC have been waiting for as to cancel the release of the one that we, uh, weren't really waiting for.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
SeldomVisitor @ 2/17/2006 12:02:21 PM # Q
> ...Q1. When will we see PalmSource middleware that enables all
> the legacy Palm applications to run on Linux?
>
> A1. Kelley -- First half of 2006...

Is there some ambiguity or misdirection here?

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 12:03:56 PM # Q
Is there some ambiguity or misdirection here?

Ambiguity no. Misdirection might be a nice word to use for it. Let's just say that this is different from what I recall being said at the conference that immediately preceded that interview. I don't believe the plan was to release the high-end smartphone/PDA OS in the summer and I don't recall anyone at DevCon saying they would.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 12:13:13 PM # Q
I need to check my notes on this... it's only my recollection and I may be confusing it with some conversations I had with PalmSource before the DevCon. Ryan, you were probably at DevCon, weren't you? Do you remember what they announced as the release roadmap?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 12:22:51 PM # Q
Here's McVeigh in July of last year:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7946

Low-end feature phone platform: "summer '06"
High-end smartphone platform: "second half of '06"

What PalmSource was cagey about is the fact that the low-end platform was not necessarily expected to be an open Palm OS platform. Read how PalmSource defines "feature phone" and you'll see that this means "no third-party applications, except Java".

All in all, I'm relived that they are leaving the work on that kind of platform to CMS with their mFone platform, even if we don't see those phones here in the states. PalmSource needs to keep its focus on mobile computing, IMO.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 1:24:57 PM # Q
Marty, why are you still running from the truth? I just posted links proving everything you said is utter B.S.

Uh huh. In your fantasy world it's bs, but as the posts between yours and mine show, in the real world, it's an accurate statement.

Too bad for you that you're the only one living in your fantasy, Skippy.

Sorry, professor, Toto has pulled back the curtain, and we all see the fraud behind the smoke and mirrors now. Go find yourself a new shtick, Skippy, the old one isn't working any more.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Surur @ 2/17/2006 2:55:23 PM # Q

Meanwhile, a WM feature-phone OS is already available, only $3 a pop.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1925451,00.asp

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 2:58:47 PM # Q
Meanwhile, a WM feature-phone OS is already available, only $3 a pop.

...and the reason it's $3 a pop is because everyone and his uncle is going after that segment, despite it being well camped by Nokia. Microsoft can afford to take a crack at a commodity market, but PalmSource cannot.

Anyway, so you know, Soleus is not WM and will not run WM apps. In fact, with cheapy phones like that I'd be surprised if operators don't lock those phones down and keep native apps off them altogether.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Surur @ 2/17/2006 3:13:33 PM # Q

Thats why I said WM feature phone, not WM smartphone. I assume WM smartphone is at least $16 (from other research).

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 3:24:46 PM # Q
Windows CE is not Windows Mobile. This is not a "Windows Mobile feature phone." Very little of what you think of when you think of Windows Mobile will exist on this device. It'll probably have a version of IE and that will be about the only resemblance.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Surur @ 2/17/2006 3:54:07 PM # Q

They make a point in the article that the main "smart" feature of the OS is that it can be developed for from Visual Studio 2005, with templates developed by them. They also mention the built-in WM controls are available, making porting of software easier. Third party may not be on the cards, but differentiated carrier software certainly is, as well as vertical market software.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Marty, your B.S. machine is overflowing
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 10:12:41 PM # Q
>>>Marty, why are you still running from the truth? I just posted links proving everything you said is utter B.S.

Uh huh. In your fantasy world it's bs, but as the posts between yours and mine show, in the real world, it's an accurate statement.

Too bad for you that you're the only one living in your fantasy, Skippy.

Sorry, professor, Toto has pulled back the curtain, and we all see the fraud behind the smoke and mirrors now. Go find yourself a new shtick, Skippy, the old one isn't working any more.


Marty, your insistence on clinging desperately to your B.S. is pathological. Are you feeling "safe", Buddy?

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Scott R @ 2/18/2006 7:27:42 AM # Q
Surur, cervezas is correct that it's not Windows Mobile. It's Windows CE. However, cervezas is speculating when he says that it will be completely locked down. As you pointed out, developers experienced in .NET will be able to create apps for it. Whether or not carriers buy into this platform and, if they do, whether or not they'll want to lock it down remains to be seen.

I think the idea of someone licensing CE.NET and creating a better UI than WM's is exciting. Whether Intrinsyc has the skills to do that remains to be seen. I speculated on Treocentral recently that Palm ought to do that. They've already got a relationship with Palm and are gaining experience with .NET. Their big problem long-term with the WM Treo platform is that they'll have little to differentiate themselves from other WM licensees who will have access to the same built-in one-hand-friendly functionality. A custom home/phone screen isn't going to be enough. But if they licensed CE.NET, dragged Hawkins out of the brain lab, and made a truly wonderful UI on top of CE.NET coupled with an SDK for developers to take advantage of it, they could have something special.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

Not .NET
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 12:25:57 PM # Q
As you pointed out, developers experienced in .NET will be able to create apps for it.

If you read the article you'll realize that there is almost certainly no .NET here. This is not WinCE.NET. If it were, then porting an application from Windows Mobile would not take "months" as they describe. When they say you can use Visual Studio to write software for this, they mean you can write software against the raw Win32 API, just like the bad ol' days.

This is not a platform intended for third party developers and whether or not the operators lock it down I doubt there will be interest from either developers or users in third party software.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: ALP architecture: focused on native apps, not browser
Surur @ 2/18/2006 1:14:11 PM # Q

I believe Scott was referring not to this implementation, but of using Win CE to make a custom GUI, while still being able to to take advantages of the underpinnings of the OS (e.g. driver support and development environment). Its similar to the various shells you can get for XP, while still maintaining software compatibility.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Reply to this comment

like the open source

lewdvig @ 2/14/2006 6:32:24 PM # Q
Wow look at all the open source underpinnings.

By leveraging the open source community for all the stuff that the PalmOS lagged in, and focusing on what it was strong in (front end and apps) they should improve at a faster pace than was previously possible.

RE: like the open source
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 10:20:39 PM # Q
By leveraging the open source community for all the stuff that the PalmOS lagged in, and focusing on what it was strong in (front end and apps) they should improve at a faster pace than was previously possible.

Unfortunately, the "leverage" gained is far outweighed by the cost of obtaining it.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: like the open source
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 8:45:31 PM # Q
Wow look at all the open source underpinnings.

By leveraging the open source community for all the stuff that the PalmOS lagged in, and focusing on what it was strong in (front end and apps) they should improve at a faster pace than was previously possible.

Nonsense. PalmSource is desperately throwing a few crumbs to the Open Source community (like Binder) in an effort to appear that they're "good Open Source citizens" so that the Linux geeks may be more inclined to do development work for PalmSource for free. I don't think they're fooling anyone.

Marty, didn't part of your job at PalmSource involve trying to curry favor with Open Source developers by regularly posting to their boards, etc? I think PalmSource's attempts to manipulate Open Source developers to do PalmSource's bidding is going to backfire: there inevitably will be places where PalmSource will be better off choosing another branch in the code, and then what will they do? Accept the Open Source solution and compromise PalmSource's true goals Vs. choose PalmSource's own pathway and lose the support of the Open Source codemonkeys? Decisions, decisions, decisions...


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: like the open source
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 7:12:33 PM # Q
Marty, didn't part of your job at PalmSource involve trying to curry favor with Open Source developers by regularly posting to their boards, etc?

No. No one at PSRC is dumb enough to think that approach would work. Everyone understands that the only way to be seen in a positive light by the community is to give back.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: like the open source
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 10:07:33 PM # Q
Nice politically-correct B.S. answer, Marty. Well done. Too bad it won't protect you from the sodomy that will be visited upon your sorry a$$.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: like the open source
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 10:42:32 PM # Q
what a cranky little comment, skippy. Didn't you get your nap in today?


May You Live in Interesting Times

Another brilliant post by you, Marty.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 11:27:48 PM # Q
Congratulations.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Questions for PalmSource about ALP

Admin @ 2/14/2006 10:22:53 PM # Q
I have a meeting with PalmSource tomorrow morning, If you guys have specific questions you'd like me to bring up please let me know (I have a long list myself).

I am also waiting on screenshots but don't know when they will show up or if psrc is releasing them at this time.

-Ryan

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 10:31:29 PM # Q
Ask them whether Sunnyvale or Nanjing is doing the Linux work.

Ask them whether or not they'll open source Picasso.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
hkklife @ 2/14/2006 11:02:58 PM # Q
Please ask them if they have any updates on the status of the Graffiti 1 litigration with Xerox (yes, I know it's Palm but still) and what sort of input libraries are planned for the "future" by PS/Access.

Any idea when they plan to EOL Garnet completely?

Thanks!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:46:13 PM # Q
Ask them how they suckered Access into buying a hacked-up dead end OS, The Joke Also Known As Cobalt (TJAKAC), a bunch of second rate engineers and a risky Chinese startup for $320 MILLION. I suspect a lot of sake and a dozen hookers were involved...

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:51:28 PM # Q
Any idea when they plan to EOL Garnet completely?

NEVER.

You cannot kill that which is Undead.


PalmOS 5 ("Garnet") shipped in June,2003 and was designed to be a stopgap measure simply for moving PalmOS onto ARM processors, buying time until PalmOS 6 ("Cobalt") was completed. It should have been discontinued at the end of 2004. Instead, in 2006 we find it bravely soldiering on, now crawling on its hands and knees. Gasping as it chokes repeatedly on NVFS, telephony and soon EVDO. This is disgraceful. If PalmOS 5 was an animal, it would have been put to sleep YEARS AGO.


TVoR

Free Cobalt! Free Tibet! Free James Brown!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
Simony @ 2/15/2006 12:09:10 AM # Q
And yet, people are tripping over each other buy Treos (at the current rate of about 1.9 million per annum, based on some market research) because the Treo does what people want it to do.

This is the device which runs on the much-maligned Garnet OS - which we are constantly told here at PIC is an hopelessly obsolete and broken down operating system.

Yet this is what people are buying - because it does the job.

So who's right - the handful of critics here at PIC (aka M$ sponsored trolls) or the millions of happy Palm users?

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 12:17:26 AM # Q
Ask them whether they expect 3rd party applications will have to be digitally signed to access network resources.

I think I'm doing an interview of my own so I'll save the rest of my questions for that.

Thanks, Ryan.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 12:52:26 AM # Q
I can save Ryan that question: yes. _everyone_ expects that at least *some* carriers will eventually require digitally signed aps.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
twizza @ 2/15/2006 12:58:59 AM # Q
Can you ask PalmSource if they have considered offering updates or PS only apps to all PalmOS users? For example, a up-to-date webbrowser, media client, etc? And if not, why not.

I'd also be interested in how much they would be willing to reveal about the work they are doing with DogFood (easier to say that APLOS) in terms of where the project is in current standing compared to what we read in the press release today.

Final question: do they think that another wait of a year would have a positive impact on carrier, customer, and manufacturer acceptance of DogFood (I really like that name, it actually sounds more fun than APLOS).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 1:08:13 AM # Q
How about asking them if their marketing people received a comment from *Palm* that they can pass on to us since the press release went out yesterday. It's been observed that that was conspicuously missing.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Who wants DogFoodOS™?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 2:08:28 AM # Q
Can you ask PalmSource if they have considered offering updates or PS only apps to all PalmOS users? For example, a up-to-date webbrowser, media client, etc? And if not, why not.

Come on, 'Toine. Why would PalmSource want to help users squeeze even more life out of their ceurrent devices? Get serious. PalmSource will keep incrementally upgrading Garnet until it reaches Version 5.9.9 and then will "pull a Cobalt" announcing that they have cancelled DogFoodOS (ALPOS) completely. Of course, by then Microsoft, Nokia, Samsung, etc will have their own STABLE mobile OSes, obviating the need for DogFoodOS.


How about asking them if their marketing people received a comment from *Palm* that they can pass on to us since the press release went out yesterday. It's been observed that that was conspicuously missing.


Dear Palm Developer,
I'm writing to you today because I'm concerned by the number of posts I've read that suggest that Palm's support of Palm OS is either wavering or short-lived. It is neither.

I thought I had made this perfectly clear with earlier statements, but let me reiterate that our announcement on Sept. 26th that we'll broaden our line of Treo smartphones to include ones made on the Windows Mobile platform is all about growing the Treo market. We want to deliver the Palm experience on Windows Mobile, strengthen our company's ability to deliver ever-more capable solutions and answer current and potential customers' requests for a Windows Mobile-based product from Palm. This is not a zero-sum game! This market is in its infancy, and if we can expand our opportunities by being a strong cross-platform provider of world-class smartphone products, then we should do so. At the same time, this does not mean we need to walk away from our existing products or technology partnerships, like Palm OS.

It's a fact that a large majority of businesses around the world use a Microsoft-based infrastructure across their IT assets. And many of those companies simply aren't open to products that use another OS. Some of our carriers also have been asking for a Treo on this platform. Finally, many end users in the world are attracted to the familiar Windows user interface. We can either answer that marketplace demand with a Windows-based product, or we can walk away from that business.

We have a rich product roadmap of Palm OS-based handheld computers, mobile managers AND Treo smartphones that we intend to deliver. Our Palm OS customer loyalty is extremely high, and we intend to continue to earn that loyalty with great Palm OS-based products. We have sold more than 30 million Palm OS-based products over the years, and it is not our intent to walk away from such a strong and loyal user base. That's why in May we extended our license for Palm OS, giving us the right to continue to make and market Palm OS-based products until 2010.

So, I'd like to ask you to look at our Windows Mobile news as a way to expand our market opportunity. We have every intention of continuing to support our Palm OS developers and to encourage the expansion of the already rich array of consumer and enterprise applications and peripherals for Palm OS. We're pleased Access has initiated the purchase of PalmSource because we believe Access has the resources to really invest in and develop Palm OS.

Net net, I believe that developing differentiated, software-rich products on a range of industry-standard platforms puts us in a unique position with customers and carriers and helps us expand the market opportunity for us, the developer community and everyone involved in the smartphone category. I hope you will agree.

Regards,

Ed Colligan
Palm, Inc. president and CEO


P.S. While we're going to keep milking PalmOS goodwill until it's no longer profitable, we realize that we cannot realistically support two different OSes longterm. We believe that Windows Mobile is our best bet to keep Palm afloat until we can find a Sugar Daddy as gullible as Access that will purchase our company. That time is coming.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 3:14:31 AM # Q
PalmSource will keep incrementally upgrading Garnet until it reaches Version 5.9.9 and then will "pull a Cobalt" announcing that they have cancelled DogFoodOS (ALPOS) completely.

Poor skippy, down there in the basement. Still has no clue what Access brought to the table.

ALP will ship to licensees, Skippy, and it'll show up on real devices, and Nokia, Moto, et al, won't have any more stable OSes than they do now when it happens.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Questions for PalmSource about DogFoodOS™
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 4:07:02 AM # Q
>>>PalmSource will keep incrementally upgrading Garnet until it reaches Version 5.9.9 and then will "pull a Cobalt" announcing that they have cancelled DogFoodOS (ALPOS) completely.

Poor skippy, down there in the basement. Still has no clue what Access brought to the table.

ALP will ship to licensees, Skippy, and it'll show up on real devices, and Nokia, Moto, et al, won't have any more stable OSes than they do now when it happens.

Access brought a fat wallet, a decent browser and wide-eyed dreams of cellphoneOS riches to the table. They'll leave penniless, disgraced and with their pants hanging aroung their ankles as Bill Gater zips up his fly with a smirk on his face.

As I said before:

1) Cobalt is DEAD.
2) Access is dreaming of NetFrontLinux ("ALPOS"/DogFoodOS).
3) NetFrontLinux will arrive too late to matter (despite the DoCoMo connection).
4) Microsoft wins again.
5) Whover gets the last post here is right.

When Access/PalmSource puts the blowtorch to your a$$ for all the vicious things you've said here about them, don't come crying to me. I tried to warn you, but dumba$$es like you only learn the hard way. Go ahead, Marty: use your tongue to prove that the stove is hot. I dare you to keep blasting PalmSource here. I DARE YOU.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
PenguinPowered @ 2/15/2006 12:19:28 PM # Q
Like I said Skippy, you have no idea what Access brought to the table.

Or, for that matter, how the real world operates.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 9:00:15 PM # Q
If you say so, Marty.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
twizza @ 2/16/2006 1:51:58 AM # Q
Come on, 'Toine. Why would PalmSource want to help users squeeze even more life out of their ceurrent devices? Get serious. PalmSource will keep incrementally upgrading Garnet until it reaches Version 5.9.9 and then will "pull a Cobalt" announcing that they have cancelled DogFoodOS (ALPOS) completely. Of course, by then Microsoft, Nokia, Samsung, etc will have their own STABLE mobile OSes, obviating the need for DogFoodOS.

At this point, that is not a bad idea from Access's standpoint. Take the base of users that you have, give them programs that would enhance their devices at $5 higher than they should be prices, and then people will float with Garnet just long enough to make the run for ALP much easier. Tis not a bad idea, and a profitable one IF the licensees didnt break too much.

Outside of the Treo 700w, WM is only usable as a PDA platform. Its simplicity as a phone platform is kinda (maybe purposfully) lost with many of the PDA then phone devices. And having a smartphone OS and a PDA OS still isnt quite smart either. Granted that will change, but it shouldnt have been to begin with.

I would only take Symbian as far as I can throw it honestly. And until the W950 was just announced, I would have thrown out any *want* for that platform as well. Tis a shame, it really should be the EPOC/Psion albeit with more users; where I think mainstream users don't even see that it has 1/10th the power that it does have.

In other words, IMO, the OS is still to be had. And while I do not dismiss my beginning of year article saying that services will be the ringer for mobile devices and not the OS, the first OS to get the stability, cost, and user satisfaction right SHOULD be able to pull in any service and make it iTunes-ish.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Questions for PalmSource about ALP
SeldomVisitor @ 2/16/2006 6:12:56 AM # Q
> ...Outside of the Treo 700w, WM is only usable as a PDA platform...

Ahem...and as noted elsewhere:

-- http://gigaom.com/2006/02/16/revenge-of-windows-mobile/

Reply to this comment

Open Binder article on OSNews

PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 10:33:53 PM # Q
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=13674 contains an interview with Dianne Hackborn of Google about the Open Binder project.

It contains a bit of insight about what's going on, but is probably only interesting to the very technically minded.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Bwahahahah!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 11:08:38 PM # Q

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#111711


http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7946#109479

**************************************************************************

I hear the cleaning staff gave Gassée their resignations last week. Time for my buddy Jeff Kirvin to mail the Gas-Man his resumé?


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

BeOS ideas were totally inappropriate for PalmOS.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 2:35:27 AM # Q
The pie-in-the-sky Holy Be Engineers still pine for their glory days as the highly-touted next-generation MacOS. Their spectacular fall from grace severely bruised their massive egos.

Solution: stuff PalmOS full of bloated, grandiose, Be-derived ideas and show the world just how clever the Be Boppers were.

Problems: KISS is the creedo to live by in software design; in rock climbing and OS coding slipping can proove fatal. 26 months after Cobalt was (triumphantly) released we see NOTHING tha show foe 4 years of Palm/PalmSource development.


***************************************************************************


Marty you're lucky Dianne never got a hold of you while she was at PalmSource.

You are "Peaches" in her little story:

http://www.angryredplanet.com/~hackbod/rodney/story.html

And remember, Marty: The safeword is "Google". Don't EVER forget this.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Open Binder article on OSNews
hackbod @ 2/15/2006 4:57:59 AM # Q
My one obligatory post --

Hello TVoR, oh how I have missed you,

Thank-you for pointing out your old "Dianne is leaving" rumor posts, so I can again show how little you know. To whit:

* I didn't even start looking around for another job until November, a month after your LAST post saying you knew I was leaving. In fact I was not even thinking about leaving until after you made that post.

* I had no plan to leave PalmSource in December. I was on sabbatical in December, but didn't make that plan until after your last post of this "rumor". My last day at PalmSource was in January, and I didn't resign until early January.

* I interviewed at -Sun-?!? Are you frickin crazy? That is the most insulting thing you have said to me yet.

Plus, you forgot to include links to your other one or two posts -before- these also about my imminent departure from PalmSource. So all we have learned here is: yes, if you keep saying that a person is going to leave their current job, why, you may one day be right.

You truly are hooked in to the inner life of PalmSource. But don't worry, I think they have a pill for that or something.

Oh and I am really so hurt from you posting yet more links to the SM material on my web site. Gosh darn you, Voice of Reason, I didn't want anyone to actually see that stuff I put up on the web! Now where will I put all of my most private inner thoughts? Maybe I should start a LiveJournal??

You seem so titillated by it, though, that I can only assume that the continual virtual whippings you receive on PalmInfoCenter aren't enough for you. I know some good pro dommes if you need another outlet for yourself. Spending a little cash for a real floggging would probably do you wonders.

See ya!

RE: Open Binder article on OSNews
javispedro @ 2/15/2006 6:18:01 AM # Q
Please, the BeOS was the greatest operating system they could buy. Don't get them wrong. It was able to run thousands of video streams on a 500Mhz processor. That's a optimized OS. If you don't believe it, run it.
As their marketing said, "when you run the BeOS, you'll never look to your other operating system again with the same eyes" (however I'm sure you'll have to look at your other operating system again, as the BeOS is as of today mostly useless --- a "dead" operating system (that's a good example of dead OS, and not POS)).

RE: Open Binder article on OSNews
cervezas @ 2/15/2006 9:11:25 AM # Q
Dianne, I'm going to be picking bits of Cheerios out of my keyboard for months!



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Goodness gracious! Ms. Hackborn, I expect an apology.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/15/2006 4:32:02 PM # Q
My one obligatory post --

DK, how could you say those things? Didn't your Mommy teach you that "honesty is the best policy"? Shame on you.

Quite frankly, I'm stunned by how crass you've become.

TVoR

P.S. Femmes like you ACHE for someone like me. Will you/did you make the cut? I'll post the SHOCKING answer later.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Open Binder article on OSNews
freakout @ 2/16/2006 3:49:02 AM # Q
"Will you/did you make the cut? I'll post the SHOCKING answer later"

Oho, bated breath. "Like sands through the hourglass..."

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Open Binder article on OSNews
Dalai Lama @ 2/16/2006 8:57:14 AM # Q
> They really should just stop development and wait until 2011 when 4 GHz mobile CPUs will be able to run real desktops OSes with ease.

I see you're learning fast, Grasshopper. What is it that Dianne has told you? Remember, Cobalt is ahead of its time. That's why they stopped development. Soon, you will see some things clearer.

RE: Open Binder article on OSNews
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 11:20:33 AM # Q
Uh oh....someone's changed names on us. Or rather, become the 15th incarnation of the Buddha of Compassion ..that was a quick turn-around! At least the front page of PIC is now going to become a more peaceful, respectful, and loving place as a result.

Free Tibet! Free Cobalt! Free Mike Cane!
Can't you hear the VOICES shouting in unison? ;-)

;-) ;-) ;-)



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Dominatrix biotchslaps PalmSource codemonkey. Film at 11
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 4:54:21 PM # Q

Dalai is not me, hkklife. (Really.) But he is wise and understands The Truth: As in art, the truly great OSes are only appreciated after they're dead.

BeOS is gonna ROCK YOUR WORLD in 2009!!!


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Anyone read Spanish?

hkklife @ 2/16/2006 11:09:59 AM # Q
(taken from PalmAddicts)

http://www.pdaexpertos.com/Articulos/Eventos/ACCESS_Linux_Platform_ALP.shtml

Anyone here read Spanish fluently?

Is this really ALP in action running Memos? It looks VERY FrankenGarnetish to me! And Haier? That's the world's largest manufacturer of refrigerators!?! They are actually making inroads in the United States, one discount store at a time. I haven't seen any of their GSM handsets on this side of the pond...I am quite surprised we are not seeing ALPOS running on a mockup Palm or LG handset.

Haier, come to think of it, would NOT surprise me in the slightest by coming out of NOWHERE to buy up Palm as they seem flush with cash at the moment and looking to establish a presence stateside...and their rinky-dink electronics line ($30 DVD players etc) fits in PERFECTLY with Palm's "barely acceptable is good enough" philosophy.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 11:34:54 AM # Q
Understand that just because you've changed *everything* under the hood doesn't necessarily mean that any of this change has to be exposed to the user in terms of what they see on the screen. ALP probably won't look exactly like Garnet (except one would presume when it's running Palm OS applications in PACE) but there's no technical or legal reason I could think of why it couldn't be a near pixel-perfect recreation of Garnet.

What's most interesting to me about those pics is that the handset they are using almost certainly does not have a touchscreen. It's hard to tell much from just seeing a menu popping up in the Memo app, but I do believe we are seeing the fruit of PalmSource's work in developing a GUI that doesn't require a stylus or keyboard to interact with it.

I'm looking forward to the screenshots that Ryan said he'd be getting hold of soon.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 11:54:11 AM # Q
David;

I know that a pixel-perfect Garnet COULD be replicated with few issues. I was primarily questioning the lack of ANY additional options such as pertaining to fonts etc. Or even an icon for one-touch beaming etc. I was sort of of hoping that Memos would evolve into a poor man's word processor/e-book reader much in the way that Media should evolve into a jack of all trades (mp3 player include) image/media viewing app.

Of course, all of this is VERY early (assuming it's real at all). Also, and this worried me from the moment I saw those pics, why aren't "Done" and "Details" at the very bottom of the screen? Does that screen look like a tiny 320*480 screen to you?

I was also HIGHLY disappointed to see the words "Graffiti 2" mentioned there...which brings me to your point about the lack of a touchscreen. What good is any stylus-based character input system (G1, G2, jot or otherwise) if the keypad is the primary means of data entry? Those screen shots just look like a whited-out DIA of a Garnet app runnning in 320*320 mode to me!

Ever since the days of typing in endless passwords of upper & lower case characters to continue my progress in Metroid on the NES I've wondered why no one has tried to come up with a really intuitive one-handed/d-pad based GUI or form of onscreen keyboard. Pperhaps this will be the first one of its kind!?! And no, I don't consider RIM's thumbwheel/jogwheel click-scroll-click efficient. Intuitive, yes. Efficient, no.

Wasn't Ryan promising an interview/Q&A session today and not just pics?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 11:58:58 AM # Q
They're still having a bit of trouble figuring out what to do with the Graffiti area on a handset that doesn't have touchscreen input, aren't they? :-P

I suspect the version of Memo we're seeing here is just a fairly hasty update of the classic app and that they haven't bothered to enable it to adjust to the fact that it's on a QVGA screen that doesn't have a dynamic input area. Or more likely, we're seeing the old app running in PACE, not MAX. It's going to be a fairly significant project to convert the PIM apps over to use SQLite (or even just the file system) to store their data so I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't got MAX versions finished yet.

Or will they even bother? It's an interesting question. Is there a compelling reason for the Palm PIM apps to be rewritten in the MAX API as opposed to just continuing to run in PACE as they do right now? I'm thinking not.

Yeah, I'm quite sure we're seeing MemoPad running in PACE on ALP in those pictures.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 12:10:13 PM # Q

yes - a rough translation is: "my fishing tackle is in the kitchen."



RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 12:17:15 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
What good is any stylus-based character input system (G1, G2, jot or otherwise) if the keypad is the primary means of data entry? Those screen shots just look like a whited-out DIA of a Garnet app runnning in 320*320 mode to me!

Yeah, if you think about it, dragging PACE over to a platform that is designed to run on devices that Garnet was never intended for--namely handsets w/o touchscreens--is a problem. You can write Palm OS apps that don't require any stylus input and work on a handset with no keyboard (I'm working on one now for my personal use) but most Palm apps don't support this very well at all. Even the ones that do still probably suffer a bit from the fact that all the thought with regard to usability in Palm OS assumed the presence of a touchscreen. Which means when you port PACE to these devices you're creating an expectation concerning the Palm OS experience that is bound to be disappointed.

I'm guessing it'll be the MAX API that will support the best experience using apps on devices w/o pen input. And there PalmSource has a chicken-and-egg problem. They really need to get their licensees to ship a good number of devices to convince Palm developers to bother porting their apps to MAX. But the licensees need to be convinced that there will be a good ecosystem of MAX applications to satisfy the users of their touchscreen-less handsets.

For this reason, I expect the first devices we see to ship with ALP will have touchscreens.

hkklife wrote:
Ever since the days of typing in endless passwords of upper & lower case characters to continue my progress in Metroid on the NES I've wondered why no one has tried to come up with a really intuitive one-handed/d-pad based GUI or form of onscreen keyboard. Perhaps this will be the first one of its kind!?!

Let's hope! I've very eager to see what the result of PalmSource's Rome project turned out to be. I'm expecting that among other things we'll see some new kinds of widgets that didn't exist on Palm OS. And maybe an interesting way to represent and interact with a "breadcrumb" trail of where you've navigated and what apps you have open.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Admin @ 2/16/2006 1:19:03 PM # Q
Just so we're clear, what the pdaexpertos pics show is the Palm OS emulator running classic Memos on ALP. PalmSource gave a ALP demo at 3GSM that showed Palm OS Compatibility, GTK apps and a MAX app. MAX is the main new UI and has all the new bells and whistles.

I am working on my article for today, but I still am waiting for official screenshots. I'm surprised no one has published anything on the live demo that they did in Barcelona.

-Ryan

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 1:30:11 PM # Q

Never forget - we "saw" Cobalt running too.

And were the f**k did that ever get us?

I'll believe it when I can walk into a major US wireless carrier's store and buy it on a phone.



RE: Anyone read Spanish?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 1:33:14 PM # Q
FWIW, Haier isn't just a 'fridge maker. They've been in the phone business for a while. See http://mobile.haier.com/English-index.htm They are doing well in China and, if my aging memory serves me correctly, already ship a Linux phone there.

I would be very surprised if they bought Palm, as Palm has nothing to offfer them, other than US distribution channels.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 1:38:47 PM # Q
oops. hit post too soon.

Haier's N60 is a Linux phone. See http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6676362361.html

I'll leave it as an exercies for the reader to figure out where they got their Linux implementation.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 2:40:09 PM # Q
Palm has nothing to offer them?

How 'bout the following:

1. Carrier agreements (always a biggie--especially for a Chinese firm!)

2. NAME recognition. Actually....TWO 'brands' to offer--"Palm" + "Treo". Look at the hoopla still ongoing over Lenovo being able to use the IBM label on their products for another, what, 4 years? Look at how Atari continues to come back from the grave..that name & that logo still hold some clout. Same goes for the legions of walking dead CE brands--Philco, Sylvania, Fisher, Westinghouse, Xerox, Zenith etc etc etc.

3. While the first two are nearly priceless (EASILY worth a combined $31 million *wink*), in addtion to the US distribution channels you mention there's still some pretty good momentum going in Europe as well as the everpresent possibility of resurrecting the conventional PDA formfactor and/or a larger tablet FF for emerging markets.


If nothing else, wouldn't a full-fledged Asian acquisition of the Palms make for some good gossip? Again, in NO particular order, I offer the following suitors to gobble up Palm:

1. LG
2. Matsushita
3. Cisco
4. Haier

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 3:04:34 PM # Q
I'll leave it as an exercies for the reader to figure out where they got their Linux implementation.

Heh. I see where you're going with this. ;-)

http://tinyurl.com/awmr4


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 3:27:36 PM # Q
possibly, although that page is refering to mFone OS phones and not mLinux ;)

(I didn't know you could read Chinese, david ;)

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Anyone read Chinese?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 3:33:34 PM # Q
Perhaps you'd prefer this page, then: http://www.mobilesoft.com.cn/cbhx.htm

Can't fool me, Lizard Boy!

And of Chinese I pronounce with excellence, thank you BabelFish!


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 3:36:45 PM # Q
He reads Japanese too! It makes Beersy's Hentai obsession all that much easier ;-) ;-) ;-)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: Anyone read Spanish?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 3:37:29 PM # Q
http://tinyurl.com/9udnk

Anyone read mandarin?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 3:47:19 PM # Q
Anyone read mandarin?

It's simplified Chinese. At least it is by the time I'm through with it ;-)

The PalmSource intelligence handset new strength does - uses Linux OS Haire first section intelligent handset N60

2005-7-28

Time under each big media spotlight, raises the head in the multitudinous intelligent handset amateur waits for, Haire the N60 ---- traveling cutting edge officially went on the market.

After Haire N60 is continues Tristar I539, PalmSource in a Chinese market strength does. This product is - moves the soft science and technology by the PalmSource subsidiary company (Nanjing) the limited company and Qingdao Haire corresponds first section which the limited company collaborates to promote to use Linux the operating system the Haire brand intelligence handset.

Moves the soft science and technology is the Chinese market most early is engaged in inserts the type Linux operating system research and development the merchant. Establishes for four years, continuously concentrates to inserts the type Linux operating system and the handset essential software research and development. It promotes slightly based on the Linux operating system intelligent handset solution by the essence, the electric quantity province, the speed quick, the probability strong, the skeleton clear, is easy to expand, the contact surface in a friendly way is practical and so on the characteristic 独领风骚 in the profession.

At present, moves the soft science and technology to rely on the solid software foundation of basic skills and the rich product experience, takes root China, takes a broad view the world, depends on its several hundred person of specialized handsets software research and development team and the nimble highly effective management strategy, provides the best software product and the globalization high-quality service for its huge and the fine customer community. Especially its mature stable intelligent handset solution fused massively complied with the market demand shocked the function, Guang Shou welcome in the profession. This plan enables the handset product not only to realize Gao Qing to travel the photography, the television broadcast (TV-Out), the music appreciation, the picture, the large capacity data storage, the PDA commerce assistant, the relaxed hand-written input, but also may through unique the installation procedure to carry on the handset function the unlimited extent.

2004 year's end, moved the soft science and technology to realize and the international intelligent handset operating system leader PalmSource merge. After this Haire N60 goes on the market also is the merge makes with joint forces the first new strength does. Moves soft technical and the PalmSource merge, gave moved the soft technical Linux intelligence handset software plan steadier operation platform and the broader application market. Current promotes the intelligent handset software plan relies on approaches the perfect system skeleton, the pleasant contact surface design, the relaxed joyful operation flow and the nimble practical design thought is obtaining the more and more many industry in colleagues' favour and the esteem.

Without a doubt, moved the soft science and technology fully to cast in Haire N60 moved the soft technical tired product year deep to insert the type Linux research and development experience, has received the PalmSource more than 10 years profession great software design thought, caused the buyer to be allowed personal to experience PalmSource to take the world-class software company everybody style. In addition, PalmSource 内推 will go against the level edition in 06 years in the global scope based on the Linux essence next generation intelligence handset operating system, but just promoted Haire N60 will be precisely PalmSource in Linux direction work cornerstone.

As the world well-known electron merchant Haire group, regarding extremely satisfies with PalmSource this cooperation. The Haire aspect indicated that, for promoted the Haire handset with the PalmSource cooperation the market competition strength to provide a convenient channel, Haire N60 the Linux intelligence handset, has manifested the future handset intellectualization and the entertainment fusion tendency, will certainly to receive the market the warm welcome.

We wish in advance the PalmSource China subsidiary company - to move the soft science and technology (Nanjing) the limited company in the Chinese handset market good news again and again. Was anticipating its can promote more sides with the more partner to have the competitive ability the high-quality goods handset.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 3:50:32 PM # Q
My favorite phrase from that press release: the "Haire brand intelligence handset."

Reminds me of a story Jeff Duntemann told me about a visit to CES where he saw a handheld device of some kind being hawked by some Taiwanese company. They had a nice display, but for some reason there were hand-written signs with the name of the product hastily scotch-taped onto various parts of the display. He lifted one of the signs and saw that the product had arrived at CES with the name "The Hand Job." Guess their marketing guys had to do some quick thinking.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 3:56:28 PM # Q
If the "good bits" contained within this mess of Engrish is anything approaching what I'm assuming it is then why was a bigger hoopla not made over this last summer?

the "Haire brand intelligence handset " is almost as bad as this Chinese Restaurant's name:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3005/1029/1600/poon.jpg


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 4:07:30 PM # Q
The upshot here is that the Haier N60 runs CMS' mLinux smartphone OS, which, roughly, is their mFone OS with their kernel replaced by Linux. (I simplify.) This is the Linux product that CMS was working on that made them an attractive target for PSRC, as the PSRC literature described at the time of the purchase.

You'd have to ask the PSRC executive team why a big deal wasn't made of it when Haier started shipping the N60.

I also suspect that a much larger deal was made of it in China, where the phone appears to be enjoying some success, than in the US, where the carriers don't seem to have picked it up. (I don't know how it's doing in the rest of the world.)



May You Live in Interesting Times

Haire-brained
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:12:31 PM # Q

"Haire-brained" is more like it.



RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 4:14:32 PM # Q
Well, first of all, the device that page is announcing doesn't run Palm OS for Linux. It runs mLinux, which puts it in company with about a gajillion other Linux handsets in the Asian market. Remember, Linux blew past Microsoft last year in global smartphone shipments.

Also, why would it make a splash outside China if it's only being sold by "the world well-known electron merchant Haire group" in China?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:15:45 PM # Q

this is a good one i saw on the side of a truck today

it said

"OTIS SPUNKMEYER...Gotta Have it!"

and showed a picture of some young boy with his arm wrapped around a cookie. Very disturbing. Reminded me of Maxim Magazine's "Found Porn" section when readers send in pics of everyday products/advertising with hidden unintentional porn. HKK - you should submit that Poon.

http://www.spunkmeyer.com/

http://www.maximonline.com/



RE: Anyone read Spanish?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 4:21:21 PM # Q
Also, why would it make a splash outside China if it's only being sold by "the world well-known electron merchant Haire group" in China?

It's being sold by Haier in the US. (See the LinuxDevices url I posted earlier in the thread.) Nobody seems to be buying though.

or better yet, HaierAmerica's press release: http://www.haieramerica.com/news_and_new_products.php?id=30


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:23:03 PM # Q

Here's Maxim's "Found Porn" Section ONLINE. ENJOY!

http://tinyurl.com/b4ymp



RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Scott R @ 2/18/2006 7:44:54 AM # Q
"Well, first of all, the device that page is announcing doesn't run Palm OS for Linux. It runs mLinux, which puts it in company with about a gajillion other Linux handsets in the Asian market."

Right, but it looks like we're not going to get Palm OS for Linux. Based on my interpretation of the recent news and Marty's various comments here, the new game plan is to deliver mLinux with some other enhancements with non-Palm-like UI and a separate Palm OS5 emulator as an "extra."

And welcome to a new world where the user interfaces will be designed by the Chinese for the Chinese. Something tells me that simply translating the language to English and shipping it over the pond to the US consumers isn't going to make for a great user experience here.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

Access is not run by fools. Maybe.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/18/2006 10:40:13 PM # Q
Is there a compelling reason for the Palm PIM apps to be rewritten in the MAX API as opposed to just continuing to run in PACE as they do right now? I'm thinking not.

If StyleTap Platform can get some conduits working, it would suggest the Palm PIM apps could run as regular prc within DogFoodOS' PalmOS Emulator. Of course, if Access wants a truly modular mobile OS that can easily be stripped down to run MAX without PalmOS if a carier requests this, they need MAX-native PIM apps. I would be shocked if all of the PIM apps, browser, email app and any other core apps (SMS, etc) are not MAX-native. Access is not dumb enough to consider running PalmOS as being anything other than a nice "bonus" that is not crucial to the functionality of devices running DogFoodOS.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
cervezas @ 2/19/2006 10:34:10 AM # Q
I wrote (a few days ago):
Is there a compelling reason for the Palm PIM apps to be rewritten in the MAX API as opposed to just continuing to run in PACE as they do right now?

In retrospect there are some good reasons that I didn't think about when I asked that question:

* If they write the PIM apps against the MAX API they will be able to use the new database engine (68k apps may not) and this would make these applications more extensible (i.e. you could modify them more easily to add new fields).

* One of the best ways to get developers up to speed quickly on the new platform is to have lots of good example code. Just as the source code for the base PIM apps was released as sample code in the Palm OS SDK, so should it be for ALP.

* There could be good reasons to want these applications to use background threads. In the case of PIM apps it's hard to think of any reason that wouldn't be more efficiently achieved by the classic Palm OS approach toward dealing with application switches: saving state + exiting/relaunching + restoring state. On the other hand, if launching apps is not as snappy with ALP as it is on Palm OS (fairly likely, I suppose) then performance might be a reason.

Whether or not this is what PalmSource is thinking, I don't know, but we now know the built-in apps *will* be written as MAX applications.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Suggestions for the new PIM apps from Access:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 11:57:21 AM # Q
If you consider the facts that the PIM apps will be the most frequently used app (almong with NetFront browser, email app and SMS app), it would be insane to try and reuse the moldy old PalmOS PIM apps. They basically haven't changed in the 10 years since PalmOS 1 was released. Truly amazing. Keeping PIM data in the old PalmOS database structure made it difficult to manipulate and share that data between apps. Why start out with that kind of problem if you have the opportunity to create a Clean Sheet PIM™? Only a stupid, lazy company like Palm would reuse the old PIM apps in that kind of situation.

Access needs the PIM apps to be what NetFront is to browsers: the best of breed.

Date Book/Calendar needs to offer the power of DateBk5 and Pocket Informant, but should have the option of EASILY switching back to the simplified "Classic" PalmOS PIM interface. There should be a single button to cycle between "Classic" and "Advanced".

Memo needs to offer encryption, sorting by date created, etc. The ability to quickly send an individual memo to another app (e.g. email app) would be appreciated.

Address needs to offer photos, arranging by photos, photo-dialling, complete mapping to all Outlook fields, more custom fields, etc. Presumably this should be easy to do with the new database structure.

To Do needs to offer the features of HandyShopper, the ability to link photos to items, etc.

In fact, all of the PIM apps should support the linking of photos, voice memos, videos and other files to entries the way that CLIE Organizer pioneered. A large, customisable database of hi res icons that can be used by the PIM is also needed. Antoine (twizza) was right when he advocated for the development of a mobile version of an application like Microsoft's OneNote. With the improved searching abilities afforded by the new database structure this would make even more sense and could revolutionize how people use their devices.


Access has the opportunity to create an OS that has the benefit of taking lessons learned over the past 15 years and otimizing the User Interface to create an ideal mobile device. I hope they don't waste this opportunity to take mobile computing to the next level.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
hkklife @ 2/19/2006 4:09:52 PM # Q
Voice;

Wouldn't it be easier to just evolve/respin Memos into something more robust such as a hybrid e-book reader/Memos app/barebones word processor?

Something like eReader Basic (remember it WAS "Palmreader" there for a bit) + a more robust Memos + something ala Windows Notepad?

At the same the "Media" app needs to be beefed up with MUCH more of an emphasis on one-handed, intuitive MP3 playback. Adding integrated support for plenty o' codecs out of the box and a solid jpeg viewer would be icing on the cake.

Something else to consider would be to stamp each voice memo with a time/date and then let a little speaker icon appear in the calendar so you can see at a glance what voice (of reason) memos were recorded on different days.

Your PIM suggestions are good but it needs to be *110%* guaranteed that data CAN be imported from any and every Palm/Palm Desktop version ever released with no wackiness occuring. Accesss & their licensee(s?) must ensure a PAINLESS migration. That means no cumbersome renaming of the backup folder and manually beaming/copying over each PIM's data.

Another possibility might be Addit-style headlines/stock/weather/sport scores at the top of the launcher itself (option) on wireless-capable devices. They could also try and add an offline AvantGo style mode to the NetFront browser IF they still think there will be enough of a market for non-ceullular PDAs by the time the OS ships.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
freakout @ 2/19/2006 4:27:57 PM # Q
"Another possibility might be Addit-style headlines/stock/weather/sport scores at the top of the launcher itself (option) on wireless-capable devices."

Sounds like Dynamic Menu, only that's in its own seperate screen, ala` Today on WinMob.

Ditto what you said about the Media app, too. Palm are going to have to rebuild it for whatever their next OS is anyways (assuming it's not WinMob) so they might as well make it *really* handle all types of media while they're at it.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Anyone read Spanish?
Surur @ 2/19/2006 5:07:21 PM # Q

They could also try and add an offline AvantGo style mode to the NetFront browser IF they still think there will be enough of a market for non-ceullular PDAs by the time the OS ships.

Netfront for Pocketpc already has Auto-cruise, which is similar to Avantgo. Strangely enough Netfront for Pocketpc seems to be the best supported version of Netfront around, despite versions for POS, Symbian and Linux existing.

Auto-Cruise
Auto-Cruisee allows you to specify a URL that NetFront v3.2 will poll and download automatically when you are connected to the Internet. With Auto Cruise, NetFront will ensure that your favorite news or other content is always up-to-date.

http://www.access-us-inc.com/Products/client-side/Prod_NetFront_nf_ppc.html

Surur


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

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Why Linux is the wrong kernel for smartphones

Sam H @ 2/16/2006 2:20:06 PM # Q
The good news is system-on-a-chip smartphones are about to ship. The bad news is they need a real time operating system, and that just ain't ALP/PalmLinux.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/30/singlechip_rtos_phones/

The good news is Microsoft are nowhere near ready either.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/13/microsoft_single_core_phone_os/

RE: Why Linux is the wrong kernel for smartphones
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 2:35:39 PM # Q
The Register. Now there's a fine source.

Still... interesting about EKA2.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Why Linux is the wrong kernel for smartphones
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 2:48:27 PM # Q
From the article:

Which begs the question, why the lack of fanfare? It's all the more puzzling since Nokia's neither Microsoft nor PalmSource have a real-time mobile offering at the moment.

Jeez. that's almost incoherent enough to be Skippy's writing.

Moving from dual core to single core is not an argument against using the Linux kernel, and the various embedded Linux players are well aware of TI's transitional plans.

There are fairly straightforward hacks one can do to make this transition, or, as Symbian has apparently done, you can use it as an opportunity to rework your system.


May You Live in Interesting Times

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