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Comments on: Editorial: Treo vs the iPhone: 10 Rounds

Apple iPhone vs Palm TreoiDay has come and gone, and the first iPhones have made their way into the hot, grubby hands of gadget geeks and Apple cultists. It's an important phase: how well is this svelte little beauty going to bear up under the hypercritical gaze of enthusiasts without the patented Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field surrounding it? In the words of the Boston Globe's Hiawatha Bray:

"After the relentless buildup of the past six months, the temptation to trash Apple Inc.'s new iPhone is pretty much irresistible. If only I could."

But Mr. Bray shouldn't fret: PIC is more than happy to give in to temptation. Six months ago when Steve Jobs claimed to have "revolutionized" the phone, we put the so-called "God Machine" up against Palm's Treo and concluded that while formidable, it's not the perfect device and could be beaten. Now that we have fresh, unbiased opinions coming in, it's time to see whether or not the Treo still passes muster. Let's take a walk down memory lane...

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Astute readers will note...

freakout @ 7/4/2007 2:05:16 AM #
...that it's actually 11 rounds. But 10 sounded better.
RE: Astute readers will note...
PacManFoo @ 7/5/2007 1:11:00 PM #
You wrote this? That explains a lot!

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Astute readers will note...
freakout @ 7/5/2007 7:06:40 PM #
It does, doesn't it. Like how it's so stunningly insightful, with my lustrous language illustrating a spectacular word picture that speaks to the soul of the smartphone fan, moving them in ways they never before thought possible. Thanks Pac! I'll count on you to nominate me for that Pulitzer.

You're crazy.

moofie @ 7/4/2007 2:06:38 AM #
Pass what you're smokin'.

You prefer freakin' PALM OS 5 over the iPhone's interface? And you think VERSAMAIL is superior to Apple's Mail implementation?

Wow.

Just, wow.

There are a number of reasons I'm not ready to jump to an iPhone yet, but none of them are because the Treo is in any way well-designed. Palm has been resting on its (moldy) laurels for way too many years now.

Once Apple gets a Pocket Quicken workalike, and IFF AT&T isn't horrible (yeah, I know, but I can wish, can't I?) I'm done with Palm.

(Unless Palm can fix it. Let's see...AT&T giving good customer service, or Palm getting its act together. Nevermind, I was wrong. We're still screwed.)

RE: You're crazy.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 2:56:52 AM #
You prefer freakin' PALM OS 5 over the iPhone's interface?

Yep. I gave my reasons: the iPhone's purely touch-based interface (and one non-reprogrammable button) mean that it will take extra steps to get things done. It also means that for the most part one-handed usage gets thrown out the window.

If they released an iPhone with buttons and some way to navigate other than the touchscreen, I'd be much more receptive. But they haven't and they didn't, so as far as functionality goes, PalmOS wins.

And you think VERSAMAIL is superior to Apple's Mail implementation?

Actually, I don't. Like I said, stuff like rich HTML and in-line photos means iPhone's email interface leaves Versamail in the dust. It's old and unstable. But Versamail is compatible with more kinds of email - it'll even do Blackberry if you want it to - and you can easily swap it out for a better third-party application. Plus, of course, the Treo has a real-life keyboard that is just easier to type with. And those are the real selling points for email in my mind, not pretty pictures.

RE: You're crazy.
funkonaut @ 7/6/2007 1:54:33 PM #
freakout, Do you even use the phone on your Treo? The sound quality is horrible. I ditched my Treo 650 for an iPhone last Friday and don't miss the Treo at all.

You can't hear anyone on the Treo unless you install VolumeCare, and you can't interrupt the person you're talking to because the Treo phone is only half-duplex! It's like talking on a CB radio.

It's one thing to be biased. It's another to be a blind, ignorant fanboy. I've lurked on this site for years, but I just can't take the site, nor Palm's actions, any longer. Time to evolve, Tim.

RE: You're crazy.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/6/2007 1:58:07 PM #
When you say the TREO is half-duplex are you talking about a speakerphone mode?

RE: You're crazy.
funkonaut @ 7/6/2007 2:12:50 PM #
Nope. Ever try talking to someone while they're talking? They just keep on talking and never hear you until they're done talking. That's because the Treo doesn't allow you to talk while receiving voice data. Same issue with the speakerphone. It's only a half-duplex device (which is an odd thing to do to a phone).
RE: You're crazy.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/6/2007 2:15:03 PM #
Good lord, is that right? The regular phone part is half-duplex?

Wow - I didn't know that - I thought that was a "feature" of speakerphone mode only.

RE: You're crazy.
cervezas @ 7/6/2007 3:02:47 PM #
funkonaut wrote:
the Treo phone is only half-duplex! It's like talking on a CB radio.

That's BS. I've never experienced that on four different Treos I've used. The microphone is disabled when you listen to someone on speaker so that they don't hear their own voice echoing back at them, but standard usage is full-duplex. If the Treo had a half-duplex radio, how would the fancy full-duplex docking stations for Treo work?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: You're crazy.
freakout @ 7/6/2007 9:14:10 PM #
It's one thing to be biased. It's another to be a blind, ignorant fanboy. I've lurked on this site for years, but I just can't take the site, nor Palm's actions, any longer. Time to evolve, Tim.

"We got another one!"

Did you actually read the article? The iPhone has a lot of good things going for it, which I praise it for, but as a phone it falls short and it doesn't take a genius to see that. Comments like "time to evolve" are just dumb. Evolve to what? A device that can't do messaging properly, a device I can't expand and a device I can't use my cool Bluetooth headphones with? Quit being so short-sighted; it's about more than graphics.

Do you even use the phone on your Treo? The sound quality is horrible. I ditched my Treo 650 for an iPhone last Friday and don't miss the Treo at all.

It's true that the now three-year-old Treo 650 had poor voice quality. Not so much of the new 680, which is greatly improved. And if you'd bothered to read a few iPhone reviews, you'd see that it's voice quality isn't anything to write home about either. Plus from what I hear it's on America's worst cell network...

You can't hear anyone on the Treo unless you install VolumeCare

Hogwash. That's true for a lot of older people who are half-deaf, but I've never had a problem hearing people on mine. And again, it was most prevalent on the three-year-old Treo 650. Quit livin' in the past, man...

RE: You're crazy.
msalzberg @ 7/7/2007 1:11:03 PM #
If [b]you[/b] had bothered to read a few reviews, you'd know that the iPhone's audio quality has been highly praised.

Check out this review:

http://www.wirelessinfo.com/content/Apple-iPhone-Cell-Phone-Review/Audio-Quality.htm

Then again, you wrote a review of a device you admit you've [b]never even touched![/b] Please, do us a favor, and write about what you know (if anything).

RE: You're crazy.
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:01:11 AM #
From Engadget, one of many sites to make similar observations:

As GSM handsets go, the iPhone's voice quality can only be described as "unremarkable." Not bad, but not particularly stellar, either.

And it's not a review, dopey. It's an editorial. An opinion piece, that clearly states at the beginning that it's based on the fresh new opinions that have been popping up over the net ever since it was announced. Perhaps you should learn to read?

RE: You're crazy.
jessewclark @ 7/18/2007 7:34:00 PM #
Yeah, you're crazy.

It's arguably fair to critique the iPhone on the basis of missing features: no removable battery, no MMS, etc. But any criticism based on the touch-screen interface is hogwash if you haven't given it a fair try. Saying something is hard to use, when you haven't used it, is odious.

I personally use Palm products, and I have not used an iPhone. That makes my opinion of its interface invalid, too. So pretend your criticisms have any merit, I'm going to go through your points, and any of them that mention the usability of the interface I'll ignore:

1. Phone:

All your comments are based on the usability of the interface. If I want to know your opinion of the usability of the interface, my first question will be "have you used it?" Oh, you haven't? Then I don't care. You get no vote here. Score: Treo 0, iPhone 0.

2. Messaging:

Hmmm, critiquing those touch-screen keys again, are we? Your opinion doesn't count. But the MMS thing is a valid gripe, an actual criticism based on objective data. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 1, iPhone 0.

3. Email:

You yet again mention a keyboard interface you've never touched. Again, irrelevant. You give the iPhone props for features, but give the score to VersaMail because it's compatible with more kinds of e-mail systems. Personally, VersaMail is the reason I don't use e-mail on my Palm at all. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you personally actually use VersaMail on a regular basis. In which case you're basing your call not just on objective data but also experience. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 0.

4. Web

Unlike your confounding defense of VersaMail, you rightly excoriate Blazer. Like VersaMail is to email, Blazer is to the web: they are the reason that I *don't* use features of my Palm. You base your critique on actual data, such as Safari's ability to render full pages. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 1.

5. Camera

Your vote appears to be based on the specs of the cameras, which is as objective as you get. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 2.

6. Media

Interestingly, here you mention both objective data and personal experience, and then give more weight to the objective data. You don't like iTunes and the iPod interface, but you acknowledge it as an asset to the iPhone. Remarkably even-handed. Data trumps experience. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 3.

7. Usability

You know, I'd bet money that you're the kind of guy who discounts the opinions of people who say they prefer Windows Mobile when they've never tried the Palm OS. Be honest, have you ever expressed that opinon? You simply don't get a vote on usability if you've never used. Your vote doesn't count. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 3.

8. Extras

I'm grudgingly giving you this one, because the standard I've established is that data is what counts. You're right, there are more apps for the Palm. In fact, I would have an iPhone right now if PocketQuicken were available for it. But it isn't. I bet that there will be some kind of personal finance software for the iPhone soon, and on that day I'll bury my Palm and never look back, but as it stands today, you make a good point. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 3, iPhone 3.

9. Syncing

You point out that the iPhone has several syncing features Palm Desktop lacks. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 3, iPhone 4.

10. Price

People can argue over this forever, but this is completely a judgement call. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 4, iPhone 4.

So, if one ignores the opinions that are based solely on opinions, the phones come out even. But at this point, I'd like to turn something you touch on lightly into a full category of its own:

11. The Future

Apple has a cutting-edge desktop OS that gets updated regularly with new features. Palm has a rickety, rheumatic desktop OS that seems to be entirely stagnant. With that in mind, rate these sentences on a scale of believability from 1 to 10:

"The iPhone OS will probably enjoy regular updates and improvements."

Personally, I'd give that an 8 or 9.

"The Palm OS will probably enjoy regular updates and improvements."

I'd give that between 3 and 4.

I'll grant that there's a high degree of subjectivity in this analysis, here. But the companies' track records at keeping their software current are objective fact. If one is going to base future predictions on past performance, the future belongs to the iPhone. And that puts the score at Treo 4, iPhone 5.

Anyway blah blah blah I can't believe I spent so much time on this. Somebody shoot me. Enjoy your Treo, man, what do I care? Life's too short.


I'm CRAZY!!! Somebody stop that madman!!!!!!!!
freakout @ 7/18/2007 7:54:23 PM #
Dude, it does not take a genius to work out that a virtual keyboard will not be as functional as a real one. There are many obvious reasons, but I'll just leave it at two simple words: tactile feedback.
RE: You're crazy.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/18/2007 7:56:29 PM #
Walt Mossberg disagrees with you.

==========

BTW, given all the very valid objections, etc, to the "article" in question, it isn't YOU who are crazy but Ryan for letting that "article" get "published without a heavy editorial hand.

RE: You're crazy.
freakout @ 7/18/2007 8:06:30 PM #
Good for Walt Mossberg! Perhaps he enjoys staring at his screen like a lobotomised chimp while he dials phone numbers!

I, however like to do things like type periods without having to bring up a second keyboard.

Biotchslapping freakout to be an Olympic sport in 2010!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2007 12:31:59 AM #
Final standings in the World freakout Biotchslapping Championship 2007:

1) ?
2) ?
3) ?


Give it a rest, Kiddies. The facts are that he wasn't qualified to write this type of "article", but the article still generated a lot of discussion on a site that may soon no longer have any PalmOS products to discuss. Until those who complained loudest start submitting articles (or at least regular commentary) to Palminfocenter, the biotchers and whiners need to S T F U. Period.

TVoR

RE: You're nuts! Crazy in the coconut! Frontier psychiatry....
freakout @ 7/19/2007 1:12:31 AM #
Qualified? Qualified?

You've got to be kidding me!!!! Anyone with even an ounce of common sense and critical thinking capability can tell that an entirely virtual interface is going to cause problems.

I mean, thanks for the latter point - it's sorely needed - but seriously. The only qualification you need to see that the iPhone ain't perfect is an IQ in double digits. I realise this precludes most Apple fans, but still...

RE: You're crazy. Like a fox.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2007 2:12:05 AM #
Qualified? Qualified?

You've got to be kidding me!!!! Anyone with even an ounce of common sense and critical thinking capability can tell that an entirely virtual interface is going to cause problems.

I mean, thanks for the latter point - it's sorely needed - but seriously. The only qualification you need to see that the iPhone ain't perfect is an IQ in double digits. I realise this precludes most Apple fans, but still...

Timmmmmmmmmmmmmay, you're starting to get as punch-drunk as PalmOS 5. Anyone who has used high-tech equipment over the years is all-too-aware that how things appear on paper often has little bearing with how things function in reality..

While for some people a virtual keyboard is an unacceptable compromise, for many individuals these devices are used primarily to display data rather than to input data, so any reasonable compromise made to maximize screen space is appreciated. Furthermore, the Treo keyboards are by no means the paragon of virtuous data input methods.

On paper, it may seem that the iPhone's virtual keyboard would be a clumsy kludge, but people who have used the iPhone frequently comment that it's actually not that bad. Until you've actually had the opportunity to use the iPhone , remain unqualified to make the judgments that you made in your article.

Remember, Timmmmmmmmmmmmmmay: It's okay to cry. Let at all come out, Timmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmay...


TVoR

Punch-drunk as Palm OS 5. You mean 'legally dead'? ;)
freakout @ 7/19/2007 2:32:20 AM #
See, the thing is, I'm not saying that the iPhone's keyboard is bad. As so many have pointed out ad nauseam, that kind of judgement can only be made when you use it. This is the distinction that everybody misses: I'm saying that there are obvious disadvantages to any interface that lacks tactile feedback and permanent access. And that you can safely say without ever having used one.

Sure, it's not that bad. Is it as good an input device as a real keyboard, even a relatively cramped one like the Treo's? Nope, and it never will be. Silliness like having to pop up an alternate keyboard just to type a frickin' full stop is a perfect example (amongst many).

And crying is for girls. Boys don't cry. If The Cure said it, it has to be true. :P

RE: You're crazy.
abosco @ 7/19/2007 10:34:24 AM #
>>See, the thing is, I'm not saying that the iPhone's keyboard is bad. As so many have pointed out ad nauseam, that kind of judgement can only be made when you use it. This is the distinction that everybody misses: I'm saying that there are obvious disadvantages to any interface that lacks tactile feedback and permanent access. And that you can safely say without ever having used one.

I've pointed this out so many times, but I'll say it again. That "obvious disadvantage" of no tactile keyboard comes at the advantage of extra screen real estate. You can fit more data on the screen of the iPhone just because it has a larger screen, attributed solely to the soft keyboard. So, the argument is - would you rather have a hard keyboard and small screen or a soft keyboard and large screen? You say the large screen is nice, but there is just no beating the hard keyboard. Meanwhile, you haven't actually used the soft keyboard. Do you understand why people actually got upset about your editorial? Until you actually use it, you cannot make that judgment call in that the extra screen real estate isn't worth not having a hard keyboard, period.

TVoR said it best (yes, it physically hurt to say that) in that you remain unqualified to write this type of article.

(For the record, I have written for PIC before.)

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: You're crazy.
hkklife @ 7/19/2007 11:12:28 AM #
For me personally, I'd gladly give up both my 700p and my TX and pay close to iPhone prices for something that was basically a Palm TX with an integrated EVDO radio, no exteranl antenna, a removable battery of at least 1800mAh & 2gb of internal flash (and, of course, was as least as fast & stable as, say a 755p).

I prefer the Treo keyboard over Graffiti 2 if both devices are 320x320. But 320x480 or greater + Graffiti 1 would be preferable over any keyboard. Of course, stroke-based character input is NOT the wave of the future or the key to mass-market acceptance. After the raging success of the BlackBerry & Treo thumboards, I cannot help but think that one of the things that led to the downfall of the conventional PDA was a lack of cheap Treo 90-style devices. The average consumer never could grasp either G1 or G2.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: You're crazy.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/19/2007 2:55:01 PM #
> ...For the record, I have written for PIC before.

Totally irrelevant.

Noting that someone cannot fly by flapping their arms does not require one to be able to fly by flapping one's arms first.

RE: You're crazy.
abosco @ 7/19/2007 3:08:36 PM #
>>Totally irrelevant.

Noting that someone cannot fly by flapping their arms does not require one to be able to fly by flapping one's arms first.

I brought it up because of this comment:

>>Until those who complained loudest start submitting articles (or at least regular commentary) to Palminfocenter, the biotchers and whiners need to S T F U. Period.

By his listed qualification, I can bitch all I want.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: You're crazy.
abosco @ 7/19/2007 3:09:30 PM #
And actually, so can Mike Cane!

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
Know what also helps? Correct tags!
freakout @ 7/19/2007 5:15:38 PM #
This site so needs an edit function. Let's try again.

Don't know how many times I need to ask this, Bosco - did you actually read the goddamn article?

I can see perfectly well the advantages a large screen provides. That's why iPhone is a beter internet device and a better media player. But a large screen means jack shit for productivity, and the elimination of any kind of buttons whatsoever makes for a more clumsy interface. AND IT ALWAYS WILL.

Ugh. Don't know if the caps and the bold will actually help, but we can all live in hope.

(Oh, and if you consider calling people a retard to be insightful commentary - i.e. every word that came out of Mike Cane's mouth in this thread - then it's no small wonder that you keep letting this point fly straight over your head).

RE: You're crazy.
abosco @ 7/19/2007 6:01:12 PM #
>>But a large screen means jack shit for productivity, and the elimination of any kind of buttons whatsoever makes for a more clumsy interface. AND IT ALWAYS WILL.

Uh huh, so you can get the same work done with 160x160 monochrome than you can with 320x480 16 bit?

In your piece, you're making a load of judgment calls. Judgment calls that ACTUALLY REQUIRE USING THE DEVICE. Don't you understand? You can't sit here and rabidly defend your opinions without more supporting evidence than, "well I found a review that said so." That doesn't cut it.

>>Ugh. Don't know if the caps and the bold will actually help, but we can all live in hope.

(Oh, and if you consider calling people a retard to be insightful commentary - i.e. every word that came out of Mike Cane's mouth in this thread - then it's no small wonder that you keep letting this point fly straight over your head).

More-so to the point, I will not tolerate you sitting there and calling me an idiot. The majority of these comments are people telling you that you lack any credibility whatsoever (and they're completely correct). I'm not going to bother listing whatever credentials I have to be criticizing you, but realize that you'll never understand what the iPhone offers as an advantage until you use one. Evidence? You said the iPhone has a clumsy interface. You're a ****ing moron. You're wrong. Its interface is its biggest advantage. There's my first real insult to you. Enjoy it.

Have fun defending a dying company, pushing dying products with a dead operating system. A lot of people said OS/2 had so much more functionality than Windows ten years ago, and look what happened.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: You're crazy.
freakout @ 7/19/2007 6:07:15 PM #
Just 'cause Windows 95 won that battle didn't make it better Bosco. Better marketed, maybe.

Rather than carry this on myself, I'll let The Best Page In The Universe do that for me. Have a read sometime:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Enjoy shooting huge sticky wads over your toy.

RE: You're crazy.
abosco @ 7/19/2007 6:10:50 PM #
Maddox stopped being funny about three years ago. That was around the time he stopped thinking of creative things to write and started bitching about companies that he didn't like. Sony, Apple, Orbitz, zzzzzzzzzz...

Boring. Try again.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Future editorials
freakout @ 7/19/2007 7:21:43 PM #
Stopped being funny when he started disagreeing with you, you mean? :P

Just to keep fueling this pitiful fire because it amuses me so:

Evidence? You said the iPhone has a clumsy interface. You're a ****ing moron. You're wrong. Its interface is its biggest advantage

Yep, the interface which you can't touch, can't feel, and must stare at to make sure you're hitting the right thing. The phone that doesn't have a hang up button. Wow Apple, thanks for revolutionizing the phone!!!! Where would we be without your stunning vision? What's next? Cars without wheels, maybe? Or perhaps mice with only one button! (oh, wait...)

Anyhoo, if you hated this article, you're really not going to like what I have planned for the future. Topics will include:

Why Vista Will Save PCs
DRM Is Good For You
Apple's Negative Effect on Modern Product Design
Mac Users Scientifically Proven Bad In Bed
Governments Should Filter The Internet
Small Penis Syndrome: An Objective Analysis of Republican Voters
Buying An Apple - Your Guide to a Second-Class iLife
Steve Jobs: Kitten Abortionist or Puppy Fiddler?

360 comments ain't nothin' on what we've got planned....

Hugs 'n kisses, Bosco.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: You're crazy.
MrWise @ 3/18/2009 9:53:24 PM #
Yep, the interface which you can't touch, can't feel, and must stare at to make sure you're hitting the right thing. The phone that doesn't have a hang up button.

Actually... Douchebag, the top left button, if you press it once, will end a call, or forward to voicemail a incoming call. I'd say RTFM, but you obviously have never used a iPhone.

Or perhaps mice with only one button! (oh, wait...)
If you go into the settings on a apple, you can set it up so you can right click without using any wacky keyboard shortcuts. Again, you are a moron, go back to kindergarden, learn to use google. :)

Anyhoo, if you hated this article, you're really not going to like what I have planned for the future. Topics will include:

~~~

Yeah, okay, we all get it, the writer of this article is a troll. Go back in your cave.
RE: You're crazy.
MrWise @ 3/18/2009 10:54:08 PM #
I have to admit, I probably know alot more about the Treo 680, 750, Centro, and several other iPhones seeing as I'm a Technician who works with these phones on a daily basis. I also at one point and time used to work for iPhone tech support. (And now a iPhone owner)

Phone:
No tactile feedback. That's interesting you point that out as a "requirement". I prefer the touchscreen alot more then clunky buttons because it's faster. Ironically you point out that it takes so much longer to type out a contact. I always use favorite contacts. If your going to point out that the treo has speed dial, by the time you hold down the shortcut, and waited a few seconds, I'm already in my call.

iPhone: 1

Messaging:

I can type much faster on a keypad that requires me to touch with my fingertips vs. my fingernails. It's just a matter of learning what part of your finger touches the screen. iPhone already supports mms since day 1. All you had to do was send a email in the (telephone number)@(carrier email), and it works! In fact you can even add under a contact the email for that, easy! I already know why MMS wasn't added, you need to write in drivers to parse all sorts of media files like jpg's, png's, gif's, bmp's, and so on. MMS will be integrated in iPhone 3.0 software. (Which is by the way, going to be free for iPhone users!)

iPhone: 2

Email:

I've used Versamail, it's crap, it doesn't always work, and for the most part I always look for workarounds to getting email to function correctly, this usually involves third-party programs like "Express Mail", obviously a indication of how poorly Treo's function.. even after having a phone out for years! The iPhone on the other hand, handles practically everything, VPN, RSA, POP, Exchange, IMAP, whatever. It's in there, and there's no silly second party apps you need to get it working.

You make the point that there are other email apps for Treo, well that's true with the iPhone as well! And moreso, I can download any email application I like on the go, as long as it's below 10mb in size. Not so with the Treo...

iPhone: 3

Web: -skip- iPhone: 4
Camera: -skip- iPhone: 5

Media:

A2DP will be supported on the iPhone 3G with the iPhone 3.0 software, your lack of interest in iTunes is understandable because you know nothing of how to use it. However, it's worse when your trying to put music on a Treo, you can shove a cdrom into your computer, and iTunes will automatically import, and when setup right, will be copied onto your iphone automatically.

The idea of taking apart your Treo, taking the memory card out, finding some way to get mp3's either by buying, or ripping them yourself, and then putting the Treo back together with the memory card is both unrealistic, and cumbersome. Then again.. if you have a Treo, chances are you will never use it to play music. I think on that alone you can say the Treo doesn't compare.

iPhone: 6

Usability:

Reading this made no sense to me, you've pointed out already your a staunch believer in the swis army knife of big bumpy buttons all over a phone. The keyboard in a iPhone only shows up when you need it, the Treo's wastes space ALL the time. I don't get what's so much more intelligent than sliding to unlock, and then clicking a item on a screen that's 2-3 times larger than any of Treo's offerings.

Ending a call is so easy on the iPhone, all you do is press the top left button once, and it ends a call, regardless if your in a app, on the home screen, or getting a incoming call. Again, without needing to look at the iPhone I do this all the time in my car, or at work!

Pressing the home button is easy when needing to switch to a different application, and the phone automatically will close apps when memory is low. Not so with the Treo, at times, you may be required to pull the battery out to stop it from freezing.

Unlocking is alot easier than you make it out to be. Sliding is all you need to do. If you had a app open, it saves the previous state because it actually remembers!

iPhone: 7

Extras

iPhone comes with the app store as of iPhone 2.0 software, is updated roughly every 3 months, automatically backs up your phone by default, and has over 25,000 apps on the app store. Alot of these applications are free, or trials before you buy. Contrastingly, with Treo apps you have to download them, and every app I've seen worth downloading for Treo has costed money.

iPhone: 8

Hardware:

Treo's are bulky, every one of them is. Doesn't matter which one you have they are all boxy with round edges, and super thick. The iPhone is sleek, thin, and contains only three buttons you can easily feel by touch. Volume, Silent/Normal, and Power Off/End Call/Lock.

iPhone 9

Syncing -skip- iPhone 10

Price:

Since the influx of the iPhone 3G the price was subsidized into the 2 year contract. You forget to mention that you are paying $600 without a contract, you could even setup a iPhone as a Pay-As-You-Go phone. Something you could never do with a bulky Treo without handing alot of cash for alot less functionality. $199 is not alot to pay when you consider that a top of the line Treo for AT&T is a Palm Centro with 64mb of memory, a tiny screen, support for a 4GB card, with Edge service.. not even 3G support.

Contrastingly, iPhone comes with 8GB internal storage, and now they sell iPhone 3G can be bought as a refurb with a $100 discount! Now that is cheap.. Verdict: 11 iPhone, Treo 0

The Palm Pre may mix things up a bit, but as it stands, the iPhone wins, not only in functionality, but also for sales. That should speak for something;

"The top handset models in rank order, based on unit sales in [2008] Q3, were as follows:

1. Apple iPhone 3G
2. Motorola RAZR V3 (all models)
3. RIM Blackberry Curve (all models)
4. LG Rumor
5. LG enV2"

RE: You're crazy.
twrock @ 3/19/2009 1:54:16 AM #
You might know a lot about a whole lot of things, but did you think that resurrecting an almost two year old thread was the "wisest" use of your time?

Come into the present and argue with Tim (freakout) in the here-and-now. He's still got plenty to say about iPhone, but at least you'll be arguing about the different devices as they now are.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: You're crazy.
freakout @ 3/19/2009 4:40:45 AM #
twrock:
but did you think that resurrecting an almost two year old thread was the "wisest" use of your time?

Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing that myself, Ron...

MrWise: I really can't be bothered responding point-for-point - I already did way more of that than could be considered healthy when I first wrote this piece - but there's one thing I really can't let slide:

your lack of interest in iTunes is understandable because you know nothing of how to use it.

Ohoho. No, no no no no no. My lack of interest in iTunes is because it's a poorly designed, bloated piece of crap that runs slower than a wet week even on my dual-core system. It's purely personal preference. I've tried to use it many times and always wound up running screaming for the hills. It's rubbish.

As for the rest, you're listing stuff that's in iPhone OS 3.0, and other bits and pieces that were added after launch. Hardly fair to contrast what I wrote only a day or two after iDay with what's available today.

One last thing: sales figures don't prove nothin'. It's a point I've made many times but bears repeating: if popularity proved quality, McDonald's would be gourmet cuisine and Britney Spears would be the Beethoven of our generation.

RE: You're crazy.
jca666us @ 3/19/2009 4:57:39 AM #
>Ohoho. No, no no no no no. My lack of interest in iTunes is because it's >
>a poorly designed, bloated piece of crap that runs slower than a wet
>week even on my dual-core system. It's purely personal preference. I've
>tried to use it many times and always wound up running screaming for
>the hills. It's rubbish.

Hack,

Considering you're not a software developer, what do you know about designing anything? As you say, "it's purely personal preference" - it's also bias.

itunes is worse than Palm's sync software? Now that's funny...

>As for the rest, you're listing stuff that's in iPhone OS 3.0, and other bits
>and pieces that were added after launch. Hardly fair to contrast what I
>wrote only a day or two after iDay with what's available today.

Hack, it's fair because it illustrates your stupidity.

>One last thing: sales figures don't prove nothin'. It's a point I've made
>many times but bears repeating: if popularity proved quality, McDonald's
>would be gourmet cuisine and Britney Spears would be the Beethoven of
>our generation.

Sales figures count if a company barely has it's head above water. Palm can't make cash with stock schemes and cash infusions. At some point they'll need to earn it by selling popular devices.

RE: You're crazy.
SeldomVisitor @ 3/19/2009 5:26:10 AM #
> ...At some point they'll need to earn it by selling popular devices.

Given the lack of knowledge about the Pre outside early-adopter circles, it'll be VERY interesting to see what sell-through is like after the first rush.


RE: You're crazy.
twrock @ 3/19/2009 7:43:43 AM #
freakout wrote:
My lack of interest in iTunes is because it's a poorly designed, bloated piece of crap....

You know, I had the same reaction to iTunes. My son was the first one in the house to install iTunes and rave about it. I figured, hey, the kid might be on to something here, so I installed it too. I hated iTunes. "Bloated" is a good description.

Hey, but what do I know? I get my thrills by running Linux on five year old laptops so that I can imagine that the amazing speed is because I have a really new and powerful system. And that's even with the eye candy turned on (Compiz).

"Vista? We don't need no stinking Vista." (And I meant no offence to Kris with that comment; everyone has their cross to bear.) ;-)

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

Is this a joke?

heavyduty @ 7/4/2007 2:59:48 AM #
I re-read portions of the article several times, looking for the punchline that would confirm that the article was a joke. But there is none, and that's just scary.

But I guess that's the kind of customer attitude that keeps Palm floating, even after all the neglect and ignorance they have showed for the last several years.....

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

RE: Is this a joke?
freakout @ 7/4/2007 3:22:02 AM #
Feel free to dispute my conclusions. iPhone has a kick-ass web browser, a great media solution, impressive hardware and awesome graphics. But the Treo is a superior phone, a superior messenger, and a more useful device to have in your pocket. It Just Does More - and for a significantly cheaper price.
RE: Is this a joke?
Unipalmeragain @ 7/4/2007 3:34:45 AM #
Granted Palm has not been cutting edge for some time, but your comments lack substance in regard to a comparison of the two devices. Having played with an iPhone for a while, I find the article to be indicative of my observations. Two categories I would have split 0.5 for each phone, but since the author gave one to the iPhone and one to the Treo, I would have ended up with the same tally.
RE: Is this a joke?
Alfa @ 7/4/2007 4:18:24 AM #
I agree with Tim Carroll's article. iPhone lacks too many functions at the moment.
In the hardware section I would give 0.5 for Palm and 0.5 for iPhone for the incredible lack of memory card slot, removable battery (!!!) and almost no hardware buttons.
So for me is 6.5 for Treo and 4.5 for iPhone.

RE: Is this a joke?
dukat @ 7/4/2007 4:51:30 AM #
I have to praise Tim's review. It pretty much matches my reasons. When the iPhone was announced it would stand way ahead to the Treo, but Eye-Candy is nor all, especially when it comes to usability.

Still I don't see how this completely ignorant and totally incompetent Palm guys (Fooleo??) could have achieved this with their dying platform? For sure they don't deserve it, but maybe they are just lucky, and the competition is even more incompetent. Well, not anymore, my personal winner is already chosen, its the Nokia E90. Now, a comparison of these two would be interesting (and devastating for Palm ...)

IIIe -> m505 -> T3 -> Treo650 -> Treo680

RE: Is this a joke?
heavyduty @ 7/4/2007 4:58:57 AM #
I take it that you [Tim] own an iPhone and that you base your opinions on first hand experience?

Many times the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so simply comparing features isn't very convincing. Just take the fact that WM blows Palm out of the water feature wise, yet many prefer Palm simply because of the OS, usability and user experience (which was my case for a long time, and you also mention that in the article). Obviously the same argument applies to the iPhone.

Also, some people have reported that they have gotten used to the iPhone's virtual keyboard and that it works quite well, while for others that's not the case. Until YOU try you won't know.

Having said all that, the iPhone definitely isn't for me at this stage. But neither is Palm OS in its current form.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

RE: Is this a joke?
freakout @ 7/4/2007 5:14:16 AM #
^^ You've got me there: no, I don't. Actually won't even have a chance to play with one for at least a year, if the usual time to market in Oz is any indication. But I don't think that any of the points I've made would change if I got to play with one; I base my criticisms not just on Apple's own promotional materials and video guided tour, but the dozens of iPhone reviews and hundreds of comments from new users over the net. And just plain common sense too.

It's not like I don't like the iPhone: it's just that on paper, the Treo is the better device.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Is this a joke?
rmhurdman @ 7/4/2007 9:49:37 AM #
Yeah, and on paper communism worked. You gave Palm a point over iPhone because it can do cut and paste?
Tim: 1, Reality: 0.

IMHO, iPhone is aimed at a different user than Treo. It's excusable to not notice, because way back in the day, there was a "Zen of Palm." That should have given rise to a user experience like the iPhone advertises. However, I have found that owning a Palm is like owning a Windows box: it can work well if you like to tinker.

And I think that sums up your review. Treo is for people who like to customize, add on, reset and start over. iPhone is for people who want their phone to "just work."

RE: Is this a joke?
freakout @ 7/4/2007 8:00:10 PM #
And I think that sums up your review. Treo is for people who like to customize, add on, reset and start over. iPhone is for people who want their phone to "just work."

Is that why it takes more steps to dial a phone number on the iPhone than the Treo?

RE: Is this a joke?
sims2k @ 7/4/2007 11:21:39 PM #
With everything that has been said and written about Iphone. It comes down to this for me...no keyboard means no use to me. Plus Iphone will have to run all my medical and reference applications before I would even consider it. I have a 30gb Ipod that I bought last thanksgiving sitting neatly in its box unused after fiddling with it for a month so
for me...it is keyboard and applications rule.

RE: Is this a joke?
jfatz @ 7/7/2007 8:25:00 AM #
- and for a significantly cheaper price.

Not if you're on Verizon it doesn't. Nor Sprint. Nor basically any other network right now. I was really itching to pick up a Treo last year, but the forced $80/month plan and the lack of integrated wireless killed it for me. (I would have been perfectly happy with a device that only did NORMAL cell phone use, and otherwise only connected online with WiFi.)

You must admit the iPhone is priced more compellingly than other devices right now. (at&t's network quality is a separate issue.) The low end is at a NEW low, basically (at least for any of the major carriers--I can't vouch for everyone...), as what one gets for $60/month with the iPhone you'd have to pay $80/month + individual SMS (or another frickin $10/month at this point) with Verizon, and roughly $80/month with other carriers. Even just counting a $20/month difference over the 2-year contract period alone...? Hey, lookit that! The iPhone has a significantly cheaper price!

Anyone smart enough to be wanting to BUY a smartphone is also smart enough to measure our their real cost over time. ;-) Features are the real factor, not cost. (Though one could kvetch about there being a higher up-front cost... It would be nice, since Apple is applying the revenue spread across two years anyway if they'd let you essentially roll the cost into your monthly plan to begin with. ^_^ But if wishes were horses...)

RE: Is this a joke?
arctg @ 7/7/2007 12:24:09 PM #
Palm fanboys infinitely worse than Apple fanboys:

"^^ You've got me there: no, I don't. Actually won't even have a chance to play with one for at least a year, if the usual time to market in Oz is any indication. But I don't think that any of the points I've made would change if I got to play with one; I base my criticisms not just on Apple's own promotional materials and video guided tour, but the dozens of iPhone reviews and hundreds of comments from new users over the net. And just plain common sense too.
It's not like I don't like the iPhone: it's just that on paper, the Treo is the better device." - Freakout

Writing a review without actually using the device removes all credibility from your article as well as PIC. At least do some "journalistic/blogging" ethical writing by mentioning your lack of hand-on interaction with the devices in the article so readers can can be informed.

So sad...

RE: Is this a joke?
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:05:37 AM #
^^ Are you blind, or what? This is from the first two paragraphs of the editorial:

iDay has come and gone, and the first iPhones have made their way into the hot, grubby hands of gadget geeks and Apple cultists. It's an important phase: how well is this svelte little beauty going to bear up under the hypercritical gaze of enthusiasts without the patented Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field surrounding it? ... Now that we have fresh, unbiased opinions coming in, it's time to see whether or not the Treo still passes muster.

If it's not clear enough for you that the article will be based on those opinions...

RE: Is this a joke?
wordjkc @ 1/22/2008 8:40:15 PM #
I have one thing to say. I was one of those fools who paid 600.00 and waited on line for 5 hours to get an i phone. I loved it for the first 2 weeks.....Lets just say that I have a treo now and thing it blooooooooooooooooooooows the iphone to pieces.
Dude that is all over the iphone stop embarrasing urself

RE: Is this a joke?
Poopie @ 1/22/2008 9:18:05 PM #
Nice first post!



USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

iPhone quick look.

Unipalmeragain @ 7/4/2007 3:28:07 AM #
I spent about a half hour playing with the iPhone in an Apple Store today. It is very sleek, and both the hardware and the interface look great, but I found the OS to be somewhat cumbersome. (Of course, this was only a first look.) To always have to navigate through the home screen to get to another app is a drag -- the Treo wins with its dedicated hardware keys.

It would be nice to be able to disable the power-on slider confirmation. The on/off button has enough resistance that I don't see the unit turning on by accident very likely.

Typing worked better using one index finger rather than both thumbs like I use with the Treo.

Safari was quite peppy in the store -- until I switched the iPhone over from WiFi to EDGE. Then it c.r.a.w.l. . . e . . . .d. Loved the zooming in and out though. I hate Blazer and don't think any of the add-on alternatives work any better on the Treo, but I'd rather have Blazer with EVDO than miniSafari with EDGE.

I'm just hoping that when my current cellular contract is up in Sept '08 that Apple will be up to the 3rd generation iPhone -- by then it should be ready for prime time and Palm may not even be around. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly accept a gift of an iPhone, but I was really happy to be using my Treo instead after my apple playtime.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


former Palm fan

Valhala @ 7/4/2007 4:05:55 AM #
An anology from a former Palm fan. Treo=79 Caddy with leopard seats and 20 inch wheels. Iphone=2007 Lexus. Trying to sell a Palm Treo will be like Scarface picking up Michele Pfifer in his yellow Caddy Scarface mobile, "What? It's got a few years on it but it's a Caddaliac!"

RE: former Palm fan
freakout @ 7/4/2007 4:10:35 AM #
Y'know what they say: beauty is only skin deep. The question isn't whether or not the iPhone will be a success, because only a dummy would say it it won't be. The question is which device is the better phone and the answer's the Treo.
RE: former Palm fan
nybble @ 7/5/2007 6:37:05 AM #
Here's another factor to take into account regarding which is the better phone. Which phone will always receive the call when in range? That is, if I'm surfing the web, or in the midst of pulling mail from the server or doing any variety of things that use the internet? The Treo won't. Similarly, which phone will allow me to use the internet, say to check a map or to check movie times while I'm on the phone?

Which phone will be more stable and not randomly reset? Ignoring the Treo 700, which resets constantly, even my 650 resets at will. I'll pull it out of my pocket only to find that at some point it's reset itself. Sometimes without turning the radio back on. Or sometimes my GPRS connection goes down and requires a soft reset to come back - removing it's ability to pull mail.

Both are incredibly frustrating experiences that make the Treo a much less reliable phone than it otherwise might be.

RE: former Palm fan
freakout @ 7/6/2007 8:43:55 AM #
Here's another factor to take into account regarding which is the better phone. Which phone will always receive the call when in range? That is, if I'm surfing the web, or in the midst of pulling mail from the server or doing any variety of things that use the internet? The Treo won't. Similarly, which phone will allow me to use the internet, say to check a map or to check movie times while I'm on the phone?

iPhone is 2G GSM. So far as I know, you can't send and receive data while on a call with that technology. If you're in wifi range it's different, of course, but that's not always available. But we've already covered the fact that iPhone's internet experience is way superior, haven't we?

Which phone will be more stable and not randomly reset? Ignoring the Treo 700, which resets constantly, even my 650 resets at will. I'll pull it out of my pocket only to find that at some point it's reset itself. Sometimes without turning the radio back on. Or sometimes my GPRS connection goes down and requires a soft reset to come back - removing it's ability to pull mail.

Both are incredibly frustrating experiences that make the Treo a much less reliable phone than it otherwise might be.

My 650 reset itself about once a fortnight. It was a very well-behaved device. My 680 is almost completely bulletproof: it used to be that the only things that crashed it were Coreplayer and Audio Gateway. The latest Coreplayer update appears to fixed the problem, which leaves just Audio Gateway - and given how hard it pushes both the Treo and the Bluetooth, I'm not really expecting it to ever be perfect.

Long-windedly, I'm saying that the rare crash I experience nowadays is more than compensated for by the usefulness of the device. What's really annoying is Palm's incredibly stupid decision to remove the reset button...

RE: former Palm fan
nybble @ 7/6/2007 4:30:14 PM #
iPhone is 2G GSM. So far as I know, you can't send and receive data while on a call with that technology. If you're in wifi range it's different, of course, but that's not always available. But we've already covered the fact that iPhone's internet experience is way superior, haven't we?

Ahh, but I'm not talking about the internet experience. I am talking about the phone experience. If my phone doesn't work while I'm doing something (or my phone is automatically doing something) on the internet, that makes the phone that much less reliable. I miss calls regularly due to this.

Of course on the flip, flip side, the iPhone can't do any offline RSS reading which is one of the two reasons I haven't switched to one already. Need to read my feeds while I'm on the train. :)

Long-windedly, I'm saying that the rare crash I experience nowadays is more than compensated for by the usefulness of the device. What's really annoying is Palm's incredibly stupid decision to remove the reset button...

My 650 resets if not daily, close to it. It also does that awesome thing where it loses gprs connection and needs a reset - that happens all the time. And from folks I've known with the device that's not uncommon. There simply are two things that the Treo does that the iPhone doesn't that make it very difficult to switch, so I guess you're right on that front. It's just good enough on many fronts to not warrant a switch, where the iPhone seems to be very good at almost everything it does, but it misses a couple required features entirely. I'm sure they're coming though, at least I hope so!


RE: former Palm fan
freakout @ 7/6/2007 9:23:29 PM #
Ahh, but I'm not talking about the internet experience. I am talking about the phone experience. If my phone doesn't work while I'm doing something (or my phone is automatically doing something) on the internet, that makes the phone that much less reliable. I miss calls regularly due to this.

Unless you're permanently in range of a wifi hotspot, iPhone is going to do exactly the same thing...

RE: former Palm fan
msalzberg @ 7/8/2007 1:03:08 AM #
Unless you're permanently in range of a wifi hotspot, iPhone is going to do exactly the same thing...

Do you know this, or are you making this up, too?

RE: former Palm fan
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:09:21 AM #
It's the way 2G GSM cellular networks work. You can't send/receive data and make a call at the same time. Hence you may not receive calls while your device is busy downloading emails in the background or other stuff like that.
RE: former Palm fan
nybble @ 7/8/2007 12:11:22 PM #
Ah yes! You're right. I wasn't even thinking - forgot that wifi was on the phone when I checked it out. Sigh. I guess yet another reason to wait for the 3g version.

http://comments.deasil.com/">this is my tech blog. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Palm fans?

Esterisk @ 7/4/2007 4:07:33 AM #
Treo has only one real advantage on iPhone, the thing that iPhone is not open to install other applications. And it is clear that once Apple will be ready to release an sdk, that advantage will be over.

The success of Treo is due to three things: it has a sexy design, it has a great usability, it is not Microsoft. In all these three points iPhone is better than Treo.

I'm really sorry of that, because I had Palm pda since before the name Palm was invented, and I am very happy with my Treo 600, but I really think that Treo and Palm herself will not survive the iPhone.

S*

RE: Palm fans?
freakout @ 7/4/2007 4:14:11 AM #
The success of Treo is due to three things: it has a sexy design, it has a great usability, it is not Microsoft. In all these three points iPhone is better than Treo.

I wouldn't say the iPhone's more usable: it takes more steps to do things and more often than not will need two hands to operate.

As for it not being Microsoft, there's also another advantage: it's not Apple, either. :P

RE: Palm fans?
Esterisk @ 7/4/2007 4:40:42 AM #
I wouldn't say the iPhone's more usable: it takes more steps to do things and more often than not will need two hands to operate.

That's not usability, that's ergonomics. Usability is about how long it takes to learn how to use.


RE: Palm fans?
freakout @ 7/4/2007 5:01:00 AM #
I stand corrected. (I actually checked the dictionary). I would contend, then, that the Treo's ergonomics are also a main part of its success, and it's there where the iPhone falls short.
RE: Palm fans?
jca666us @ 7/4/2007 11:42:35 AM #
However the iphone's usability and stability have the Treo beat.
Palm benefits from iPhone
cervezas @ 7/4/2007 1:17:46 PM #
I really think that Treo and Palm herself will not survive the iPhone.

It's going to be interesting, no question. But I have a feeling the iPhone is going to have a much less simple impact on the market for Palm's products than most people understand. The biggest market for smartphone makers like Apple and Palm to be going after today is not the people who are already using smartphones and PDAs: it's the vastly larger group of mobile phone users who don't know how useful and cool it is to be able to customize their phone with native apps. The Treo and BlackBerry captured the imagination of the early adopters of connected mobile computing, but adoption has only barely pushed into the mass market. For the average phone consumer smartphones are still thought of as being either geek devices or gadgets for business people who are addicted to push email. What has been missing is a handset that shatters that image and gives the masses the idea that using their phone for more than voice and text messaging is useful and cool. Despite the fact that users can't install applications, the iPhone is complete enough to spark the idea and the habit of using mobile applications in the public mind. That will open up a market for smartphones that is vastly larger than the one that exists today.

Once that starts to happen there will emerge all kinds of profitable market segments for multiple vendors--including Palm--to exploit. If the current iPhone is any indication, Apple sees its most profitable segment to be entertainment-focused users. Palm seems to be focused on business users that spend most of their time away from their desk and deal with tons of email and office docs, while fostering an application ecosystem that enables the Treo to satisfy lots of niche uses that Palm can't really pursue themselves. These business users would never even consider an iPhone as a substitute for a Treo for many of the reasons Tim explains so well. Bottom line: they need a highly ergonomic, efficient workhorse for managing all their mobile communication activities and integrate with their IT department's email systems. Palm has to start executing better in going after this market, but I think we're on the cusp of a new phase of business mobility where applications other than email will be driving adoption, and Palm is far better situated than Apple to capture this. Apple will be a catalyst for this shift, smashing the barrier to mobile application usage that vendors like Palm, HP, and HTC have been unable to break on their own. That change in the public thinking from "this is my phone" to "this is my mobile computer" is going to be more important for Palm's future than the smartphone customers that Apple steals from Palm. If Apple steals 20% of Palm's current customers, but triggers a doubling of the smartphone market from 30M to 60M users, Palm still sells a lot more Treos, even if it's market share is diminished.

If I were Palm I'd actually be crossing my fingers that Apple does release an SDK in a year or so, because that will do more to create a "download culture" among phone users than anything that Palm itself would be capable of doing. Without that culture, there's no "big dance" for Palm to even show up at and no quality of execution will help Palm really grow its market.

In short, the iPhone/Treo/BlackBerry competition of today is a tempest in a teapot. The real competition is the one that turns a billion feature phone users into mobile computer users. There will be room for multiple winners, large and small, in that greatly expanded game.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm fans?
freakout @ 7/5/2007 3:59:45 AM #
Beautifully put. 'Nuff said.
RE: Palm fans?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/5/2007 6:45:39 AM #
>>>I really think that Treo and Palm herself will not survive the iPhone.

It's going to be interesting, no question. But I have a feeling the iPhone is going to have a much less simple impact on the market for Palm's products than most people understand. The biggest market for smartphone makers like Apple and Palm to be going after today is not the people who are already using smartphones and PDAs: it's the vastly larger group of mobile phone users who don't know how useful and cool it is to be able to customize their phone with native apps. The Treo and BlackBerry captured the imagination of the early adopters of connected mobile computing, but adoption has only barely pushed into the mass market. For the average phone consumer smartphones are still thought of as being either geek devices or gadgets for business people who are addicted to push email. What has been missing is a handset that shatters that image and gives the masses the idea that using their phone for more than voice and text messaging is useful and cool. Despite the fact that users can't install applications, the iPhone is complete enough to spark the idea and the habit of using mobile applications in the public mind. That will open up a market for smartphones that is vastly larger than the one that exists today.

Obviously smartphone manufacturers want to expand their market to reach new customers. The Treo 680 was Palm's attempt to reach the Average Joe. The jPhone was Apple's attempt to reach the Average Joe. Which do you think the Average Joe would like to own?

Once that starts to happen there will emerge all kinds of profitable market segments for multiple vendors--including Palm--to exploit. If the current iPhone is any indication, Apple sees its most profitable segment to be entertainment-focused users. Palm seems to be focused on business users that spend most of their time away from their desk and deal with tons of email and office docs, while fostering an application ecosystem that enables the Treo to satisfy lots of niche uses that Palm can't really pursue themselves. These business users would never even consider an iPhone as a substitute for a Treo for many of the reasons Tim explains so well. Bottom line: they need a highly ergonomic, efficient workhorse for managing all their mobile communication activities and integrate with their IT department's email systems. Palm has to start executing better in going after this market, but I think we're on the cusp of a new phase of business mobility where applications other than email will be driving adoption, and Palm is far better situated than Apple to capture this. Apple will be a catalyst for this shift, smashing the barrier to mobile application usage that vendors like Palm, HP, and HTC have been unable to break on their own. That change in the public thinking from "this is my phone" to "this is my mobile computer" is going to be more important for Palm's future than the smartphone customers that Apple steals from Palm. If Apple steals 20% of Palm's current customers, but triggers a doubling of the smartphone market from 30M to 60M users, Palm still sells a lot more Treos, even if it's market share is diminished.

More Beersy-style sophism. Your position (that the iPhone will increase the visibility + popularity of smartphones in the public eye, allowing Palm to benefit by feeding on the scraps that fall from Steve Jobs' JesusPhone table) is truly absurd, Beersy. The companies that produce a good product (e.g. Toyota) get ALL the pie, while companies that produce crap (e.g. Chrysler) get NO pie and go bankrupt. The fact that Palm was one of the first to produce a successful smartphone is meaningless now. That was then, this is NOW. The company is only as good as its current products. The jPhone is a solid foundation that just needs a few tweaks and a few applications to COMPLETELY shut out the Treo from the business sphere that you suggest Palm is focusing on. Opening up the jPhone platform would also allow third party vendors to supply "niche" apps for the jPhone, absorbing yet another potential Treo market.

It's incredible that you dare spout such utter B.S. in public like "business users would never even consider an iPhone as a substitute for a Treo". Business users don't want nice big screens, right? And they like using buggy, unstable poorly-built Treos, right? And they like having to hunt around for apps/utilities like ChatterEmail, Butler, Profiles, Graffiti Anywhere, Resco Backup, DiddleBug, Crash, Resco Explorer, Uninstall Manager, etc., etc. to get their Treos into a barely functional state, right? Sorry, Bubba but as soon as Apple fixes its surprising lack of a bulletproof business email solution for the jPhone then the Treo's only convincing raison d'etre disappears.

Yes the overall smartphone market will grow (with smartphones replacing featurephones for many casual users), but with every cellphone manufacturer now getting serious about the market Palm's share will drop dramatically - both in % market share and total # of phones sold. Starting NOW. The financial report from Palm's current quarter will document how quickly The End can come for a former maket leader. For the past 4 years Palm had the smartphone wading pool almost all to itself. Unfortunatrly, now the Big Mean Kids have shown up.

If I were Palm I'd actually be crossing my fingers that Apple does release an SDK in a year or so, because that will do more to create a "download culture" among phone users than anything that Palm itself would be capable of doing. Without that culture, there's no "big dance" for Palm to even show up at and no quality of execution will help Palm really grow its market.

Sure, Beersy. Release an SDK, make the jPhone even more attractive and give Palm's remaining customers even LESS incentive to stay with Palm. Real smart, Bubba. Do you not find it telling that so many of Palm's most ardent supporters have given up on Palm in disgust over the past year? These were people that actually CARED about PalmOS. Now Palm's customers are increasingly a bunch of business types that don't even know what OS their phone has. They will have no loyalty to Palm and won't think twice about leaving Palm behind as soon as the latest executive toy comes along. (Witness how popular the new small BlackBerry devices have become - the people/companies buying phones like the BlackBerry Pearl USED to be Treo customers. Think they'll EVER go back to Palm?)

In short, the iPhone/Treo/BlackBerry competition of today is a tempest in a teapot. The real competition is the one that turns a billion feature phone users into mobile computer users. There will be room for multiple winners, large and small, in that greatly expanded game.

Bull. And you know it. Ignoring Symbian's (bogus) "smartphones" and the BlackBerry email devices, you are fully aware that the smartphone market hasn't grown that quickly at all over the past few YEARS. Now that pie is being targeted (and fragmented) seriously by Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Apple, BlackBerry, HTC, etc. You should be embarassed by this feeble Palm Apologist crap that you've posted here. Shame, Beersy. Shame.

TVoR


RE: Palm fans?
Ervool @ 7/5/2007 9:17:26 PM #

All the possible good points of your comments are shadowed by your inexcusable animosity towards the previous poster.

There is really no need to be ironic or sarcastic, you could post your views and discuss them with other people.

Regards,

RE: Palm fans?
heavyduty @ 7/6/2007 4:22:11 AM #
If I were Palm I'd actually be crossing my fingers that Apple does release an SDK in a year or so, because that will do more to create a "download culture" among phone users than anything that Palm itself would be capable of doing. Without that culture, there's no "big dance" for Palm to even show up at and no quality of execution will help Palm really grow its market.

What can I say.... If you really wish that Apple does release that SDK, thinking that it would do Palm good, than I'm certainly glad you're not heading Palm. TVoR's car analogy above explains it very well. And why the he11 would you want to buy a Treo (in its current form) in the first place if the iPhone, by releasing an SDK, can do everything that the Treo does?

Honestly, would YOU buy a Treo instead of the iPhone if you could get the same apps/functionality for the iPhone through that SDK? Honestly?

And even assuming that an iPhone SDK DID make AJ (Average Joe) more aware of the possibilities of third party apps, do you think (s)he would ever pick a Treo over an iPhone after comparing the two devices at the store??


You have probably been around here for as long (or longer) than I, so you know people on this board have been asking for a modified Treo in the shape of the iPhone for years (large screen, multimedia oriented, etc.). Palm has been paralyzed for years, and the iPhone is an indication of the potential for the "new" smartphone market (i.e. converting non-smartphone users). Palm lost all their ground in the business market to RIM and WM. Now they are losing the consumer market to iPhone. What's left for Palm? The Foleo?

Some people say the the iPhone is a multimedia device with phone capabilities. Palm/Hawking has openly stated that they aren't developing any new PDAs, saying that there is no consumer interest nor growth potential in that area. The iPhone proves those assertions completely wrong: a well executed PDA+phone from Palm could have achieved similar success as the iPhone.

But Palm obviously knows better: apparently the Foleo is the answer to all Palm's financial problems, and not an iPhone-like device they could have released years ago....

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

RE: Palm fans?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 7:55:50 AM #
Honestly, would YOU buy a Treo instead of the iPhone if you could get the same apps/functionality for the iPhone through that SDK? Honestly?

I might consider it, for the real keyboard, but probably not for too long. The price is still a major deterrent, though.

But the real point here is that people will get used to idea of personalising their phones with applications, as well as ringtones and wallpapers and all that crap. Apple are in the perfect position to cement this idea in people's heads: using iTunes to deliver and sync apps, combined with iPhone's graphical wondrousness would be a huge boost to the mobile software market. Provided Apple lets more than a select few developers in, of course.

Once that idea is implanted - that extra apps are easy, fun and useful, as it is right now in Palm devotees - it's very hard to go to a device that doesn't offer that kind of choice. When people tire of their iPhone (which they do of any product, especially one that's changed every couple of years, like a phone) they're more likely to buy another device that lets them use mobile applications.

And even assuming that an iPhone SDK DID make AJ (Average Joe) more aware of the possibilities of third party apps, do you think (s)he would ever pick a Treo over an iPhone after comparing the two devices at the store??

The fallacy there is that you assume the devices will stay the same forever. Things change, and the phone giants (and no doubt Palm, if they have any sense at all) are all likely planning their own devices that are just as graphically swish. People won't use their iPhones forever, and many will switch to another brand of phone after a few years of ownership. It's the nature of the market.

Iphone has set the bar

Valhala @ 7/4/2007 4:20:39 AM #
The only challenge to the Iphone will be competitors rushing to copy the Iphone. The Iphone has set the bar for what a 21st century mobile device should be and is. The Foleo next to the Lifedrive, which by the way I had a Lifedrive for a miserble 3 months before it bit the dust by going into a continous rest loop.
PALM is a dinosaur and as Scarface said "Every dog has it's day"

Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 5:29:22 AM #
Apple's jPhone shows users how far behind the times Treos are. How many $600 Treo 700p etc. are going to be sold now that the market has a new benchmark? From now on people will be looking a Treos like archeologists look at dinosaur fossils: interesting markers of a bygone era.

Palm's biggest immediate problem is the jPhone siphoning away potential Treo customers. With Palm BARELY braking even each quarter, each lost Treo sale attributable to a jPhone sale = another nail in Palm's coffin. Palm's revenue model makes absolutely no sense. Oh wait... the FOOLeo is going to save the company. Yeah. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

TVoR

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 5:46:42 AM #
How many $600 Treo 700p etc. are going to be sold now that the market has a new benchmark?

Not many, considering that (with contract) you can get a Treo 680 for free, a 750 for $199 and a 755 for $279. Of course, it's bad news if these price cuts don't increase sales enough to make up for the smaller margins, but are selling more of them.

We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it. iPhone will make a dent in consumer sales, but we still don't know how big. (Although that massive launch has to be making Palm nervous. Some reports are saying they've sold 700,000 now...)


Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 5:47:04 AM #
How many $600 Treo 700p etc. are going to be sold now that the market has a new benchmark?

Not many, considering that (with contract) you can get a Treo 680 for free, a 750 for $199 and a 755 for $279. Of course, it's bad news if these price cuts don't increase sales enough to make up for the smaller margins, but they are selling more of them each quarter.

We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it. iPhone will make a dent in consumer sales, but we still don't know how big. (Although that massive launch has to be making Palm nervous. Some reports are saying they've sold 700,000 now...)


Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 7:14:02 AM #
> ...We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q
> to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it...

One of the major problems with financial "reporting" is time - from the time you send things out (and report THAT) to the time those things actually get sold to end customers (and report THAT) and the time the rebates come streaming in (and you adjust numbers to =begin= to report THAT (*)) a lot of time passes.

So you can't get a good picture of what's REALLY happening for a long time.

But PALM just gave us some interesting hints on PAST activities; they said the rebates streaming in hadn't met their expectations so their "Average Selling Prices" reported this time around were higher, so their results looked better than they expected. And they're expecting the NEXT results to be horrible to the point of going negative possibly.

Hey! Maybe they finally ran out of already-sold-in TREO 650s that they could give away FREE with a rebate to increase their sold-through numbers (if you want, you can change that '5' up there to an '8')!

Time...it's a bummer...and it can hide the REAL reality really well.

========

(*) Some numbers get recomputed "periodically" - that's a nice way of saying the CURRENT instantiation of "the numbers" reflects what was, not what is and, even when the numbers are recomputed, they'll STILL reflect what was, not it. Time, once again, rears its ugly head.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 7:24:42 AM #
[pardon, should have pointedly added this]

One final note on time versus reality and whether or not there are TREO-killers already out there - one of the most important things about financial reporting is noting what IS and what ISN'T mentioned. If you look over the transcript for the latest financial report out of PALM you'll see tons and tons of words about sell-THROUGH - the sale of devices to end-customers.

And you'll find next to nothing about sell-IN - sale of devices to those who sell devices - THE manner in which PALM actually makes money and THE venue in which the effect of the competition WILL be seen.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 8:05:52 AM #
Time will tell, I guess.

Now I'm going to bed. If there isn't at least a page of hate posts from Apple fans when I check in tomorrow I'm going to be very disappointed...

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 8:10:23 AM #
>>>How many $600 Treo 700p etc. are going to be sold now that the market has a new benchmark?

Not many, considering that (with contract) you can get a Treo 680 for free, a 750 for $199 and a 755 for $279. Of course, it's bad news if these price cuts don't increase sales enough to make up for the smaller margins, but are selling more of them.

I don't believe that the Treo pricing matters anymore. It's too late for Palm. Palm has had to slash prices in an effort to maintain sales, but this is a double-edged sword. First of all, wealthier consumers are going to choose better-designed devices like Apple's JesusPhone whether or not the Treo is significantly cheaper than the jPhone. Secondly, lower prices for Treos means lower revenues for Palm. For a company that relies on Treos to generate 80% of its income, discounting Treos is a recipe for disaster. (Of course, if Palm DOESN'T discount the Treos then they won't sell at all and revenues will fall even further. Catch-22.)

We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it. iPhone will make a dent in consumer sales, but we still don't know how big. (Although that massive launch has to be making Palm nervous. Some reports are saying they've sold 700,000 now...)

Wrong again, Timmmmmmmmay. The competition that we've seen over the past year have done significant damage to Palm's bottom-line:

- Motorola Q: The combination of a low price, a big-name handset supplier, significant press, a Treo-like keyboard and high initial sales scared the living daylights out of Palm. The company has now had to rethink how it prices its devices and from now on will have to accept lower profits in order to avoid stagnant sales.

- Samsung Blackjack: Samsung starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Just needed Wi-Fi + better keyboard.

- Nokia E61/62: Nokia starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Arguably a more functional device than any Treo ever released.

- Blackberry Pearl: The (non-brick) phone that replaced (brick-like) Treos as the executive phone du jour. Devastating blow for Palm.

- Blackberry Curve: Further pain to be inflicted.

- Blackberry Pearl 2: The coup de grace for Palm that finishes what the jPhone started.


Don't believe me? Come back to this thread in 3 months (after Palm releases the current quarter's financial statement) and see which one of us was right.


TVoR


RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 8:36:33 AM #
You don't have to convince me that Palm's in trouble. I even believe you could be right. But personally I'm hoping for the best, because I'm a hopeless Treo nut and don't want to see them disappear. Thus, while you may be right, I hope you're wrong. :P
RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
retrospooty @ 7/4/2007 10:27:32 AM #
"- Motorola Q: The combination of a low price, a big-name handset supplier, significant press, a Treo-like keyboard and high initial sales scared the living daylights out of Palm. The company has now had to rethink how it prices its devices and from now on will have to accept lower profits in order to avoid stagnant sales.

- Samsung Blackjack: Samsung starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Just needed Wi-Fi + better keyboard.

- Nokia E61/62: Nokia starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Arguably a more functional device than any Treo ever released.

- Blackberry Pearl: The (non-brick) phone that replaced (brick-like) Treos as the executive phone du jour. Devastating blow for Palm.

- Blackberry Curve: Further pain to be inflicted.

- Blackberry Pearl 2: The coup de grace for Palm that finishes what the jPhone started."

And yet, here you are again, posting comments on a PALM fan site. Makes me wonder. did I mention this is a PALM fan site?

BTW, TVOR, this is a PALM fan site. =)

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 11:58:03 AM #
When you hunt ducks, you go where the ducks are.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
twizza @ 7/4/2007 12:17:20 PM #
TVOR, nice commentary (as usual); slight disagrements but nearly the same conclusion on my part.

The Q was a major dent, yet somehow Palm wasn't able to maneuver its hardware product design fast enough for this.

Samsung was seen a mile away by everyone, but I don't think any are taking them seriously just yet (I'd wager another model refresh will do the trick just fine).

The E61/E61 was Nokia's version of "hello, guess who's coming to dinner." THe E61i was their shot, and its a good one, too bad corporate IT-types don't see it yet. I'd wager even that the next iteration of this would be a real Treo-coffin nail.

The BB Pearl did hurt. Though I have seen many give up a Treo for one and go back not long after. If the hardware design issues could be cleaned up in Peral 2, then that's a nail. A big one because consumers and IT-depts will run at it.

The Curve is good, but hasn't hit its stride yet. I'd give it a few months before [me] making a call on it. It is one of the many directions the Treo should have been though.

the iPhone swooped everyone (except Samsung, and to some extent Nokia). The expectations are eye-candy and functionality. Heck, just this morning I was on my 680 wondering not so much why the hardware isn't there, but why the UI isn't. FooFighter did an article some time back about a UI overhaul that could hve been done whether a new OS or not. Its a shame that it hasn't been done. I do think that part of the delay of Palm OS II is UI related, the rest is advanced networking abilities related. Nevertheless, I'm borderline on the side of TVOR of thinking that Palm might not be an appendage this time next year, in Ed Colligan's words, "[they] just have not executed well."

That all being said, there honestly seems only one developer in the Palm OS world seeing that GUI makes a difference (GX5). If I am developing any programs for the Palm OS, I'd put the UI thru them and let them play -- a lot.

I also find it highly disconcerting that this review was one part correct, and another part missed the picture of the iPhone. The iPhone did not attest to do anything but be the best iPod and ad cellular/Internet to the equasion. If this were the real issue (it is for many consumers in the mobile device market not named techies), then the Treo has been roundly trumped on merit of integration and flow of use. That's not something that 3rd party apps should address, nor something that buttons should attest to; that is product design philosophy. And if that is truly what has been lacking with the Treo since the Handspring merger, then yes, the death of Palm is a merited topic to [pre]eulogize.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 4:13:27 PM #
And yet, here you are again, posting comments on a PALM fan site. Makes me wonder. did I mention this is a PALM fan site?

BTW, TVOR, this is a PALM fan site. =)

As always, thanks for sharing, retrospooty. You don't work for Palm, now do you? Of course not!


TVoR

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 5:49:02 PM #
TVOR, nice commentary (as usual); slight disagrements but nearly the same conclusion on my part.

Thanks, 'Toine.

The Q was a major dent, yet somehow Palm wasn't able to maneuver its hardware product design fast enough for this.

It's amazing that palm couldn't see the Motorola Q coming. I guess Hawkins et. al. thought the Treo actually had some special secret sauce that even the biggest handset manufacturers couldn't figure out. Very stupid + arrogant. Palm is so used to fleecing customers with its PDA-originated "incremental upgrade" business strategy that it appears to have become physically impossible for the company to fix that diseased corporate milieu and actually design good new products. In the tech world it's "Innovate or die". We're seeing what is happening to Palm now because it has failed to innovate.

Samsung was seen a mile away by everyone, but I don't think any are taking them seriously just yet (I'd wager another model refresh will do the trick just fine).

The Blackjack was just a (half-hearted) first attempt at a Treo clone by Samsung. When they get serious, the results can be devastating. I feel almost ALL of Samsung's current phones are crap by the way, including the A920 I picked up last year. But this is the same company that produced the i500 5 YEARS AGO - still the phone I use daily and easily the best cellphone I have EVER used. Imagine a Blackjack made to the same quality standard as the i500 and with Wi-Fi, EVDO, etc. Poor Palm won't know what hit them.

The E61/E61 was Nokia's version of "hello, guess who's coming to dinner." THe E61i was their shot, and its a good one, too bad corporate IT-types don't see it yet. I'd wager even that the next iteration of this would be a real Treo-coffin nail.

The E61 and the (Wi-Fi crippled) E62 embarass my Treo 700p. If it wasn't for the software I'm addicted to (DateBk 5, HandyShopper, DiddleBug, Ultrasoft Money and a few specialty apps) and Sprint's ultra cheap EVDO pricing + excellent voice quality (with free roaming onto Verizon with my SERO plans!) I would have looked at getting an E61 last year.

The BB Pearl did hurt. Though I have seen many give up a Treo for one and go back not long after. If the hardware design issues could be cleaned up in Peral 2, then that's a nail. A big one because consumers and IT-depts will run at it.

The BlackBerry Pearl was a way to expand the smartphone market to include non-smartphone users. Releasing a device like the Pearl seemed to be an obvious progression to EVERYONE except Palm's management. Why couldn't Palm have released a similar device complete with ChatterEmail 2 YEARS AGO?

The Curve is good, but hasn't hit its stride yet. I'd give it a few months before [me] making a call on it. It is one of the many directions the Treo should have been though.

At least BlackBerry is giving consumers a variety of form factors to choose from, unlike Palm with it's "any phone you want as long as it's almost identical to the 4 year old Treo 600" mentality. Had Palm released a couple of other form factors (e.g. a tiny Samsung i500-style clamshell and a small dumbphone-sized candybay shaped device) they could have broadened the Treo's appeal beyond the current market of people willing to carry ugly, heavy bricks. Look at what Nokia is doing with its tiny 3 ounce 6120 Classic: http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Nokia-6120-Classic-Review-review-r_1766.html

the iPhone swooped everyone (except Samsung, and to some extent Nokia). The expectations are eye-candy and functionality. Heck, just this morning I was on my 680 wondering not so much why the hardware isn't there, but why the UI isn't. FooFighter did an article some time back about a UI overhaul that could hve been done whether a new OS or not. Its a shame that it hasn't been done. I do think that part of the delay of Palm OS II is UI related, the rest is advanced networking abilities related. Nevertheless, I'm borderline on the side of TVOR of thinking that Palm might not be an appendage this time next year, in Ed Colligan's words, "[they] just have not executed well."

I still feel a simple update like giving users a tabbed launcher like Launcher X (which could optionally be turned off) would revitalize Palm while remaining true to the "Zen of Palm" that died so many years ago. Also, Palm should already have licensed + integrated best-of-breed apps into the OS and outsourced the job of making everything LOOK pretty to companies/codemonkeys that actually know what they're doing + let go 50% of Palm's current staff. Imagine a Treo that OUT OF THE BOX came with Chatter Email, Directory Assistant, Weatherman, Resco Backup, GoogleMaps, VideoHound, HandyShopper, Resco Viewer, TCPMP, Resco Explorer, TealLock, Uninstall Manager YAUC, Comet, etc. We already know Palm doesn't give a rat's a$$ about developers, so they could easily have played hardball and negotiated ultra-cheap pricing for these apps. (Any developers that refused to license their apps to Palm would likely lose ALL sales if Palm licensed a competing app and released it for "free". Had Palm done all this in 2004/5 the iPhone would not be making them look so silly in 2007.

That all being said, there honestly seems only one developer in the Palm OS world seeing that GUI makes a difference (GX5). If I am developing any programs for the Palm OS, I'd put the UI thru them and let them play -- a lot.

I still think Palm shoud focus on ease of use, functionality, speed and reliability rather than going for pure fluff. Of course, as the BRILLIANT GoogleMaps showed, it's possible to have it ALL - even under creaky old PalmOS 5.

I also find it highly disconcerting that this review was one part correct, and another part missed the picture of the iPhone. The iPhone did not attest to do anything but be the best iPod and ad cellular/Internet to the equasion. If this were the real issue (it is for many consumers in the mobile device market not named techies), then the Treo has been roundly trumped on merit of integration and flow of use. That's not something that 3rd party apps should address, nor something that buttons should attest to; that is product design philosophy. And if that is truly what has been lacking with the Treo since the Handspring merger, then yes, the death of Palm is a merited topic to [pre]eulogize.

Well put, twizza. For Palm - in 2007!!! - to be expecting users to hunt around for apps to give their latest hardware functionality that should be present out of the box illustrates the arrogance, laziness and stupidity still rampant at Palm. Now that the "jPhone" is showing users what can come in an integrated package, Palm is being exposed for the fraud it is. To fix these problems at Palm will require a COMPLETE change in how they do business. Based on the jaw-dropping number of mistakes Palm has made with its not-even-yet-released FOOLeo, it seems obvious that the current management STILL has not yet learned from the past decade's worth of Palm's corporate mistakes. The funny thing is that despite all this, Palm is STILL in business and STILL has an outside chance of turning things around. If Apple is smart they will kick Palm when it's down by quickly integrating prettier-looking clones of the best Palm apps into the jPhone - all for "free", adding proper "business-friendly" push email, adding MMS/video recording/remote file access + streaming/remote desktop control/and other useful software updates to the jPhone package. Apple wisely realizes that with each announced update, people will feel they are getting an even better "value" for their money, increasing goodwill towards Apple. (Remember how Apple dramatically announced the all-glass screen and the upgraded battery life? As if they didn't know these were part of the package all along? "Svengali" Steve Jobs is the most brilliant snake oil salesman slithering the planet today...


TVoR


RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 6:32:00 PM #
One other thing, twizza: looking at all the jPhone's Version 1.0 deficiencies, it appear that most of them can be solved fairly easily (some with simple Over The Air software updates):

- Add 3G radio
- Open platform up to third party developers (can you imagine how many developers are chomping at the bit for a piece of the iPhone software market?)
- Add Microsoft Office-compatible apps
- Add voice dialling
- Improve Bluetooth implementation
- Add memory expansion
- Offer device on other networks
- Add instant messaging app
- Add VPN/VNC app
- Add MMC capability
- Add voice calling
- Add user-removeable battery
- Add cut & paste
- Add remote data access/streaming apps


The question is whether Apple even NEEDS to do ANY of this to ensure the jPhone keeps selling strongly. That's the $30 million question Palm is waiting to be answered...


TVoR

Will anyone here line up for a FOOLeo when/if it's released?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 6:45:23 PM #
So Apple sells several hundred thousand jPhones in 1 weekend.

I wonder how many FOOLeos Palm wiil be able to sell this year? Seriously. 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? What developers will care about such a TINY market... unless the FOOLeo's PalmLinux = the next generation PalmOS. Bwahahahahaha!


The sheep are waiting, Mr. Colligan. Chop chop!

TVoR

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
ChiA @ 7/4/2007 8:38:00 PM #
looking at all the jPhone's Version 1.0 deficiencies, it appear that most of them can be solved fairly easily:
.
.
- Add VPN/VNC app

jPhone 1.0 does come with VPN, one less problem to solve.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 9:40:51 PM #
then the Treo has been roundly trumped on merit of integration and flow of use.

I don't see how. You must always navigate back to the Home screen in order to switch apps, even the major ones like phone and messaging. As for integration - both the Treo and the iPhone can parse phone numbers from web pages, messages, emails, maps etc. iPhone's built in web browser and media player are unquestionably superior to Palm's out-of-the-box solutions, but their messaging and phone fall short.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
Valhala @ 7/4/2007 11:26:28 PM #
Freakout, tell me this? If you were given a 2007 Lexus and told evertime you wanted to go someplace you had to push a button on the dash would you say I would rather have my AMC Gremlin because I am not forced to push no dang button to go anywhere?
Please tell me you would take the Gremlin because you don't have to do that useless button pushing.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/4/2007 11:30:07 PM #
Phones are not cars.
RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
twizza @ 7/5/2007 4:22:18 PM #
Just a few comments in passing.

(1)Ryan, the mobile version of PIC is really well done. About the only thing missing is being able to navigate the news posts via the number pad.

(2)Freakout says, Phones are not cars
Not only do I disagree with you, but if you have paid any attention to the mobile market from its inception until now, you will see that mobiles not only share the same commodization in terms of technology that autos did in the 20s-40s, but that socially, they have had the same impact everywhere not named the US in similar fashion that cars did. The analogy that was presented might not be totally right, but phones to cars is very much so correct.

(3)Freakout says, I don't see how. You must always navigate back to the Home screen in order to switch apps, even the major ones like phone and messaging.
You had to do the same thing with Treos until the 680 and 700 models too. Nothing new there. In terms of simplfying UI concepts, this is smart, albeit not necessarly easy for those used to docks and start bars.

(4)TVOR says, The question is whether Apple even NEEDS to do ANY of this to ensure the jPhone keeps selling strongly. That's the $30 million question Palm is waiting to be answered
They do need to do it, and mainly because the mobile OS/device market is by no means the slow beast that the desktop market is. Apple was very smart in making aspects of the iPhone modular (browser, some UI, and other components) so that firmware updates could take care of this. The question isn't when others will realize, but how they will respond. Nothing that I know for sure, but I do believe that both Palm and MS are looking for a more modular approach to their new OSes. I am not so sure that Access is however. And Symbian needs to be built from scratch to do so. Advantage Apple here.

Oh yea, according to AT&T, over 1 million iPhones were activated (not sold, Activated). That is dang near better than the RAZR. Even with 10% returns (normal for this kinda of device) that is simply incredible and speaks to what solid marketing will do to any product.

(5)TVOR says, f it wasn't for the software I'm addicted to (DateBk 5, HandyShopper, DiddleBug, Ultrasoft Money and a few specialty apps) and Sprint's ultra cheap EVDO pricing + excellent voice quality (with free roaming onto Verizon with my SERO plans!) I would have looked at getting an E61 last year.
Careful, you are mixing the 3rd party argument with a prodcut design and implementation one. Here is where your points can be easily confused by others who don't or won't understand that while you do believe in much of what the Palm OS can do, you don't believe in getting less than what you feel equals value.

(6)TVOR says, The BlackBerry Pearl was a way to expand the smartphone market to include non-smartphone users. Releasing a device like the Pearl seemed to be an obvious progression to EVERYONE except Palm's management. Why couldn't Palm have released a similar device complete with ChatterEmail 2 YEARS AGO?
Product design philosophy is something that a visionary has to make you believe in. It bleeds into execution and belief that something can and will do well despite the inability of others to see it. Apple's chief desinger and chief evangelist, is also the same person that makes everyone believe he knows best. Jobs's ability to have that kind of managerical structure is also what makes Apple's products just work, and RIM has a similar (up to a point) kind of structure that has allowed for this to come about. I know some of Palm's insides, but not sure as to whether everyone believes in the vision, or if they are believing in it, just not sure how to say it -- which is hard to do for some.

(7)TVOR says, I still think Palm shoud focus on ease of use, functionality, speed and reliability rather than going for pure fluff. Of course, as the BRILLIANT GoogleMaps showed, it's possible to have it ALL - even under creaky old PalmOS 5.
You know, I totally agree. Google Maps is one sick application. I have no clue who designed it within Google, but they really did make a functional, fun, and well done application for Palm OS. There is not that much polish on any Palm OS applicaiton IMO -- else I'd be using it.

(8)TVOR says, Now that the "jPhone" is showing users what can come in an integrated package, Palm is being exposed for the fraud it is.
No, not a fraud. Palm et al are being shown that the barrier for what people expect has now gone up. I have preached enough that hardware increments is not innovation, innovation is challenge perceptions and raising the bar on performance, execution, accessiblity, and usability. If a mobile device maker cannot do that every few product design cycles, they tend to have an issue of not being relevant any more. Much like Foo's iPhone article talking about how people asked him why he still has a Palm OS Treo, the lack of refinement and real innovation makes people believe that you aren't growing and maturing. I know that Palm knows this, and hope that they are making the needed changes in their pipeline.

Tis all for now, back to my N95 and 680 (8GB) running :)

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/5/2007 7:21:07 PM #
Freakout says, I don't see how. You must always navigate back to the Home screen in order to switch apps, even the major ones like phone and messaging.
You had to do the same thing with Treos until the 680 and 700 models too. Nothing new there. In terms of simplfying UI concepts, this is smart, albeit not necessarly easy for those used to docks and start bars.

Actually, that's incorrect: every Treo since the very first 180 has had a dedicated button for the Phone and a dedicated button for Messaging.

Freakout says, Phones are not cars
Not only do I disagree with you, but if you have paid any attention to the mobile market from its inception until now, you will see that mobiles not only share the same commodization in terms of technology that autos did in the 20s-40s, but that socially, they have had the same impact everywhere not named the US in similar fashion that cars did. The analogy that was presented might not be totally right, but phones to cars is very much so correct.

Okay, that was a glib response, but it was a stupid question that was orginally asked. The way people use a car is very different from the way that people use a phone. Valhala's question would have been more accurate if he asked: would I take a car that required me to push a button before I switched on the radio, before I activated the wipers, before I turned on the indicator, before I got in and before I got out?

And surprise, surprise: no, I wouldn't.

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
twizza @ 7/7/2007 12:58:11 AM #
You mean that you would prefer a car that uses a key to get in an out versus one that has a keyfob to push the button to open/close it and prep the rest of the system for your engagement ;)

Just playing with you, but I've had a night were I am questioning product design philosophy, UI, UX, and mobiles, and I am not liking that I am agreeing with Apple's product on several levels. They aren't five years ahead in the sense of "ooh look at the future," but are five years ahead as in "ooh, look what you should have seen 5 years ago."

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Apple's jPhone (Jesus phone) signals the DEATH of Palm.
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:36:09 AM #
^^ I agree with that last. the fact that Apple have come so close to beating Palm's best effort with their first phone should be flashing big panic sirens at Palm HQ...

From a Treo 650 Owner

zadillo @ 7/4/2007 6:43:08 AM #
I've had my Treo 650 for the past 2 years (I had owned a Palm Vx before that), and I'd been sort of thinking about upgrading to a newer Treo. Not the Treo 680 though, as I can't really justify paying for a Treo 680 just to get the new phone dialer app (hey Palm, why can't this be made available to Treo 650 owners? If Apple is serious about updating the iPhone with new software features, it seems like Palm could easily do something like let Treo 650 owners take advantage of the new Treo 680 dialer/etc. app).

Then there's the Treo 750w, but frankly, that doesn't do it for me either. Its nice for me that it has 3G, and I have noticed it is fairly fast...... but I still just don't really care for Windows Mobile, and found a lot of it to be fairly clunky and inefficient. But AT&T doesn't have a Palm 755p.

Do I switch to another provider to get the 755p? It's hard for me to justify that either, given the lack of movement in the Palm OS.

I do like Palm OS, for the most part, but we all know the story with it now.

I've been able to spend a fair amount of time with the iPhone (at the Apple Store, the AT&T Store, and using a friend's).

I am not buying one right away (I'm waiting both for a hardware revision, and to see exactly how Apple does make good on their promise to add new features/apps themselves...... and also to see how things shake out with real third party apps, which apparently have been hinted at.).

I'll admit that Palm OS and Windows Mobile both have advantages....... but for a user like me, they aren't necessarily so big. Yes, I can install third party apps on my Palm, but I've found that I'm not using third party stuff as much right now. The two big third party apps I use right now are TomTom's GPS software (but I can easily see myself buying a dedicated GPS device), and Salling Clicker (which is one I would miss, but frankly, I might just keep my Treo around then and use it as a remote for my PC).

Most of what I use my Treo 650 for is checking e-mail and browsing the web - although Blazer is really only useful to me for viewing WAP-based versions of sites at this point. Even outside of the speed of loading a full site, navigating a full website in Blazer is kind of pointless.

And all I can say is that at this point, I'd have a pretty hard time thinking about buying another Palm device as a replacement for my Treo 650.

We can do all the comparisons like the one above, but at least for a user like me, there's not really any comparison any more.

I am hoping that Palm at least isn't using the logic described in the above comparison to conclude that the Treo is superior and thus they can keep going like they have been.

-Zadillo

Ever touched an iPhone

Timothy Rapson @ 7/4/2007 6:47:42 AM #
From your "review" I would gather that you have never even touched an iPhone. Your conjecturing rant on the superiority of the Treo is a joke without your actually using the iPhone.
I have an Axim X51v. If I evaluated it the way you have against my original PDA, a Psion RevoPlus, it would "win" by 10 to one. But, I would love to have that Revo back over the Axim. Why? The Revo just worked right.
Your whole piece is an utter waste of time.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:10:30 AM #
^^ Lol. No, tell me what you really think!

Conjecture? Everything I've written is based on the dozens of online reviews and innumerable comments from new users, and just plain common sense. If you dispute a particular point, let's hear it. Otherwise, thanks for coming.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Ryan @ 7/4/2007 12:30:22 PM #
I spent some good time with an iPhone over the weekend, and while no one can deny it has some of the sexiest hardware and software polish, in the end I agree with the majority of Tim's assessments here.

When you boil it down, most of the cool stuff on the iphone is simply eye candy. Yes, the browsing experience is wonderful (over WiFi) and the iPod features top notch, but not being able to have third party apps, only one lame carrier and the unreliable keyboard are some serious disadvantages that Treo owners don't have to contend with.

Now, don't get me wrong, I was amazed with the device, ease of use and overall experience. There are some real innovations on the iphone and it totally changes the game for everyone, which is exactly what this area needed. But in the end it's not a smartphone, just a jazzed up feature phone, or a video ipod with a phone if you will.

If you just need an entertainment device it's more than perfect, however if you actually want to be productive and have access to tools and custom solutions you will be out of luck.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 2:13:22 PM #
> ...only one lame carrier...

What GSM carriers does PALM have in the US?

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Gekko @ 7/4/2007 2:18:03 PM #
>I spent some good time with an iPhone over the weekend

ryan - i'd love to read your review.

Foo Fighter?
Gekko @ 7/4/2007 2:29:41 PM #

and where is Foo Fighter the big Apple fan's iPhone review? did he even get one yet?

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
hkklife @ 7/4/2007 2:35:34 PM #
SV:

I think what Ryan means is that you can take a SIM card--ANY SIM card, or T-Mobile or Cingular/AT&T domestically--and put it in any GSM Palm Treo and have it work pretty much anywhere. But the iPhone is locked to AT&T alone. I think Ryan has T-Mob so he could not even pop his T-Mob SIM into an iPhone if he wanted to.

Gekko;

I think Kent has his iPhone but hasn't really said much about it. I am sure he'll post something soon. If not here on PIC then for certain on his elitistsnob.com or pocketfactory.com sites.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
feranick @ 7/4/2007 3:49:39 PM #
For Foo's review, look here instead:

http://www.theiphoneblog.com/

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Ryan @ 7/4/2007 3:51:02 PM #
Kent's still mopping up the drool on his floor apparently. A friend of mine got one, he switched from a 650. I only played around with it for less than 20 minutes. I was very impressed, especially with the browsing experience and video.

I could never switch over on the single fact that it can't run third party apps. There is just so much functionality you lose when you get locked into a proprietary device. If the iPhone was available in tablet form or as a video iPod, I'd prob snap one up in a sec, but could never use it as my main mobile device in its current form.

The treo is just so much more useful, but I can't disagree that the iPhone design and interface puts Palm OS and Windows Mobile to shame.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Gekko @ 7/4/2007 4:26:34 PM #

to fernick - thanks for the link!

to ryan and all - happy 4th of july!


RE: Ever touched an iPhone
abosco @ 7/4/2007 4:34:35 PM #
I OWN an iPhone, and I am telling you that you are VASTLY underrating its interface. People that don't have a damn clue how to use a Palm that (in my opinion) is a very simple interface can use an iPhone without a problem. Why? It was created by simple people for simple people. It works, and I love it. The interface on the iPhone KILLS the Treo. Do I love the simplicity of one-handed Treo operation? Absolutely. But until you use the iPhone and realize how seemless all of the applications work together, you will still just be looking at a spec sheet and basing your opinions off of that.

Your review should have talked about much more important items, such as the inability to edit Word and Excel, no instant messaging client, and no SDK. The Treo has roughly 25,000 applications available for it. The iPhone has 12. Why isn't this listed several times? You can't use the iPhone if you need to bring your office with you, period. That's why you still need a Treo. But if you're looking for a boatload of entertainment value with music and video, the iPhone is an easy choice if you have the coin.

Also, the web browser is better than anything I've ever seen on a mobile device. Bar none. I am the damn PalmSource Software Expert for Browsers, and the iPhone killed everything in that list in one fell swoop.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
hkklife @ 7/4/2007 5:05:59 PM #
I personally cannot get over the lack of a removable memory card slot or voice dialing on the iPhone. With such a lovely big screen, 8gb IS NOT ENOUGH on the iPhone. And the CHEAPEST of the cheap dumbphones have had voice dialing for several years now! The Treo line continues to miss the target and for such a pricey device as the iPhone to both overlook that simple yet crucial feature is mind boggling.

Still, what we have to keep in mind is that this is a first-generation iPhone. Look how far (relatively) Palm & Handspring have come since the Treo 180. Or, better yet, look how the iPod changed from its 1st to 4th generations. Nothing super-revolutionary there, but enough to make people keep upgrading year after year. I'd expect pretty significant changes from Apple each year for the iPhone, if for no other reason than to keep customer chrun to a minimum and keep everyone constantly locked into a 2yr contract.

For what it's worth, about 3/4 of the executives/professionals/colleageus I know who own Treos or BlackBerrries don't have any extra software installed on their devices. At best, you have maybe a Solitaire or chesss game plus one or two MobiTV or PocketExpress-type apps installed and that's it, aside from the bundled Palm ROM apps. To THOSE sorts of people, the iPhone will look just dandy, as Abosco points out.

I know one guy who carries a GSM RAZR & a CDMA Blackberry. Another guy already has an iPhone and a CDMA Blackberry. And I still carry my KRZR K1m + 700p combo for maximum efficiency.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Gekko @ 7/4/2007 5:20:25 PM #

the things i don't like about the iphone -

1. no user-removable battery.
2. no cut & paste.
3. no contacts/calendar/memos search, no direct letter contacts search - is this really true?
4. no 3G.
5. no page scrollbars.
6. only at&t/cingular.

most of these can/will probably be fixed in v. 2.0.

check out Foo Fighter/Kent's iPhone adventure/review at the link above. good stuff.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
abosco @ 7/4/2007 5:48:13 PM #
1. I agree. Of course I wish I could replace it myself, but I have yet to be left high and dry with the iPhone. The battery has proven to be pretty hefty for me, and I use it a lot throughout the day.

2. I agree again. Even with the iPhone interface, it would be simple to add. I wish it had this functionality.

3. This isn't a big deal for me. With the contacts search, you can flick or pick a letter from the right-hand side of the device. There's a complete vertical listing of the alphabet, and if you tap on a letter, it'll bring you to that place in the address book.

4. I agree, but definitely not a deal-breaker. There are so many conspiracy theories about this. Jobs said there is no 3G integration because there was no 3G radio available at the time of development that gave them the power usage they wanted. It's unfortunate, but I believe them. 3G is a battery killer. Would I prefer it? Absolutely. But EDGE has been surprisingly peppy. Even watching YouTube is bearable if you have a shred of patience and good reception.

5. Scrollbars are visible when you're flicking/dragging pages, but they're just for reference. Scrollbars are useful with a stylus, but once you get your hands on an iPhone, everything comes pretty naturally. When you load a long webpage in Safari in landscape, yes, scrolling gets a bit long in the tooth. But there's nothing stopping you from zooming out (by a simple pinch) and flicking once to take you down.

6. I was a already current AT&T customer. On top of my voice plan, I was paying an extra $15 per month for text messages, multimedia messages, and a limited data plan. I'm now paying $20 per month for unlimited data and the same amount of text messages. As for MMS, it has already been solved. If you know the provider of the recipient, you can email the picture to the correct phone number. For example, if the person is an AT&T customer, you send it to (ten-digit-phone-number)@mms.att.net. Every provider has their own address just like that.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:44:17 PM #
It works, and I love it. The interface on the iPhone KILLS the Treo. Do I love the simplicity of one-handed Treo operation? Absolutely. But until you use the iPhone and realize how seemless all of the applications work together, you will still just be looking at a spec sheet and basing your opinions off of that.

If the UI requires more steps to get things done, then no, it doesn't "KILL" anything. This may be hard for people to admit because it looks so schmick, but one tap to get something done is better than two. iPhone's purely touch-based interface is by necessity limited in how quickly and efficiently you can get things done. Not being able to launch the phone without first jumping through the Home screen is the best example.

The Treo has roughly 25,000 applications available for it. The iPhone has 12. Why isn't this listed several times?

'Cause its gets boring reading the same point over and over. ;) I did make this point in the "Extras" section.


RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Gekko @ 7/4/2007 8:16:29 PM #

bosco - nice to hear from you. where you been?

Where are those legendary Magnificent 30,000 PalmOS apps*?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 8:28:49 PM #
>>>The Treo has roughly 25,000 applications available for it. The iPhone has 12. Why isn't this listed several times?

'Cause its gets boring reading the same point over and over. ;) I did make this point in the "Extras" section.

OK, let's ALL lay the apocryphal "30,000 PalmOS app library" dead horse to rest once and for all:

1) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps were never updated to PalmOS 5?

2) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps are abandonware?

3) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps are for monochrome devices only?

4) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps have been updated recently?

5) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps are simplistic "listing/database" (think PDA Toolbox, baby!) apps released by some hobby coder with a whole 1 hour of coding "effort" hoping to fleece a naive newbie for a quick buck?

6) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps are apps that PalmOS NEEDS in order to overcome limitations resulting from the OS not being significantly updated in 10 YEARS?

7) How many of those "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS apps are actually worth buying?

Less than 1000 PalmOS apps are actually worth buying. A LOT less than 1000. Probably more like 500. As is the case with Windows Mobile, by the way. So if Apple can control the quality of the JesusPhone's apps either by not allowing third party apps or by limiting the # of approved developers to those who meet certain quality control criteria, JesusPhone users aren't that bad off. Perhaps Apple + AT&T can institute a method of requiring digital "signing" of third party apps (like Tapwave did) in order for them to work. If the jPhone has 100 third party apps available within a year and optimizes the Web app kludge then - other than for specialty apps (real estate, legal, medicine, teaching, astronomy, diving, etc.) the Legendary "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS app advantage evaporates as quickly as those vaporware Cobalt devices did 2 years ago...

Have mercy: do not flog this DEAD, ROTTING HORSE again. Please. Thank you. God bless. And goodnight. Drive home safely, folks.


TVoR


* Feel free to bookmark this post and link to it any time anyone else trots out that pathetic B.S. about the bogus PalmOS app library "advantage". ("20,000, 25,000, 30,000, 35,000, 40,000", etc. apps) If we all work together, 2007 will be remembered as the year that poor dead horse was finally laid to rest.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/4/2007 9:07:07 PM #
Less than 1000 PalmOS apps are actually worth buying. A LOT less than 1000. Probably more like 500. As is the case with Windows Mobile, by the way.

That's still 500 more than the iPhone has.

If the jPhone has 100 third party apps available within a year and optimizes the Web app kludge then - other than for specialty apps (real estate, legal, medicine, teaching, astronomy, diving, etc.) the Legendary "Magnificent 30,000" PalmOS app advantage evaporates as quickly as those vaporware Cobalt devices did 2 years ago...

I (kinda) made this point already:

This could change in an instant: Apple could announce tomorrow that they're opening up the iPhone to third parties, and it would instantly neutralize Palm's biggest advantage.

But the point is that until Apple actually do open it up we're dealing in maybes. PalmOS offers extra applications here and now, and you could buy all the ones worth buying and still pay less than you would for iPhone 1.0.

Drop the price and open it up, Apple, and my opinion of your device will change accordingly. Until then? Nice try, Steve.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Valhala @ 7/4/2007 11:39:25 PM #
Freakout, Maybe you it's possible that the Iphone is mass hysteria afflicted by Snake oil salesman extradoniare Steve Jobs. I'm not an apple fanboy, in fact I was a Palm fanboy, palm Stock, owned half dozen Palm mobile devices, I stayed with Palm despite no inovations, despite bad hardware, LifeDrive. Despite the Pimped out Treo that looks like Chevy Chase house on Chistmas Eve.
The Iphone is evolution and Treo is neanthral,it may be bigger and stronger the Iphone is more clever and is destined to win in this race for the next gen mobile device.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/4/2007 11:49:43 PM #
The Iphone is evolution and Treo is neanthral,it may be bigger and stronger the Iphone is more clever and is destined to win in this race for the next gen mobile device.

That may be true. But it hasn't won yet.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
abosco @ 7/5/2007 4:46:03 PM #
>>If the UI requires more steps to get things done, then no, it doesn't "KILL" anything. This may be hard for people to admit because it looks so schmick, but one tap to get something done is better than two. iPhone's purely touch-based interface is by necessity limited in how quickly and efficiently you can get things done. Not being able to launch the phone without first jumping through the Home screen is the best example.

Counting taps was relevant in '96. The simple fact that Windows Mobile is alive and well is proof that counting taps do not matter anymore.

Also, your usage description of how to power on the iPhone and navigate shows that you haven't touched it. There are a few inaccuracies, but that's irrelevant. You are picking apart a UI that Apple specifically chose in order to avoid hard buttons. And do you know what avoiding hard buttons does? Increases screen real estate. Would you like a laundry list of the advantages that a larger screen provides?

>>bosco - nice to hear from you. where you been?

Of all people to actually miss me, it's Gekko. I'm still around, but I'm more of a car guy. Don't listen to what they tell you - a Mechanical Engineering degree is harder than it looks.

>>OK, let's ALL lay the apocryphal "30,000 PalmOS app library" dead horse to rest once and for all:

It doesn't matter if only 500 are useful. That's 500 applications of instant messaging, native MS Office editing, and games. Those few useful applications present an advantage for the Treo, whether you agree with it or not.

>>Drop the price and open it up, Apple, and my opinion of your device will change accordingly. Until then? Nice try, Steve.

Apple has a deal with AT&T, and AT&T has a deal with Apple. Apple only allows AT&T to get their hands on the service in the US, and in return, AT&T isn't allowed to subsidize the phone. The result? You won't get a lower price until Apple says so, which is a few weeks before the new one comes out. And that one will also be on AT&T. And guess what? So far, it's working INCREDIBLY well for both of them. Remember, their target is a lowly 10 million sales in a year.

Please keep in mind that I've been in the Palm OS game for a good bit. I will still sing the praises of the Palm OS's simplicity to this day. Unfortunately, there just isn't any innovation anymore, and I sure as hell don't want to keep trying Windows Mobile devices.

I'm going to go back to watching Carlito's Way on my iPhone. The battery took about a 30% hit from a 2.5 hour movie. I want to see how much video this thing can take in a single session. Maybe I'll load up The Godfather saga and hope I fall asleep by the time the third one begins.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/5/2007 11:44:40 PM #
Counting taps was relevant in '96. The simple fact that Windows Mobile is alive and well is proof that counting taps do not matter anymore.

Rubbish. Counting taps is still just as important as it ever was; Windows Mobile surives because of advanced features like multitasking that make up for the deficiencies of the interface. This is why the iPhone can still be considered a good product, because it has other features that help make up. But when it comes to ease and speed of access to what's important, it's the Treo that comes up trumps.

Also, your usage description of how to power on the iPhone and navigate shows that you haven't touched it.

That's not a secret...

You are picking apart a UI that Apple specifically chose in order to avoid hard buttons. And do you know what avoiding hard buttons does? Increases screen real estate.

Rubbish! You're telling me Apple couldn't fit a "Phone" button and a "Messaging" button on either side of the Home button? The screen doesn't go from edge to edge of the iPhone, in case you haven't noticed. Do you actually own one? :P Apple chose to avoid hard buttons because they care more about a sleek, good-looking design than maximum functionality. Good for them; but it means that an iPhone is not as efficient as a Treo at speedily accessing your important info.

Would you like a laundry list of the advantages that a larger screen provides? No thanks; I already provided one. Did you actually read the article? iPhone won the Hardware, Media and Web categories, and the large screen was one of the major reasons.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/6/2007 12:11:49 AM #
Ooops, missed one:

Apple has a deal with AT&T, and AT&T has a deal with Apple. Apple only allows AT&T to get their hands on the service in the US, and in return, AT&T isn't allowed to subsidize the phone. The result? You won't get a lower price until Apple says so, which is a few weeks before the new one comes out. And that one will also be on AT&T. And guess what? So far, it's working INCREDIBLY well for both of them.

Well a big YAY for the billion-dollar mega-corporations! Too bad for consumers, eh? I realise that Apple aren't aiming to take over the phone market, but I'm sure there a thousands if not millions of people like me who see the iPhone as a truly excellent device, but simply won't pay up to 600 dollars for one.

People may be willing to pay it, but that's not the point. The point is that it's unreasonably high for most people, and that's not something we should praise Apple for. As a matter of fact people on this board were flaying Palm for that price point not so long ago...

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
Poopie @ 7/6/2007 2:06:09 AM #
people on this board were flaying Palm for that price point not so long ago...

I paid top dollar for most of my palms and bought about ever other new PDA model.

I would have paid probably close to $800 for a successor to the Tungsten T|3 that never was -- something with 640x480 res running Cobalt with lots of real RAM and multiple slots. Heck, I would have even bought it as a PHONE. Price point is *ONE* consideration. Palm abandoned lots of the loyal PDA power users and said, "you don't need as powerful a PDA as the one you have right now -- DOWNGRADE to a Treo!".

Palm abandoned me long ago.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 4:13:54 AM #
That was exactly how I felt, I waited and waited for something like a Tungsten phone.


I'll show you unreasonably high pricing for most people
ChiA @ 7/7/2007 6:33:13 AM #
People may be willing to pay it, but that's not the point. The point is that it's unreasonably high for most people

I find this moaning about price rather tiresome and bogus:

- Apple and AT&T aren't forcing people to buy an iPhone anymore than everyone on minimum wage is being coerced into buying a Rolls Royce or Lexus. What matters to a company is not if everyone can buy your products but whether enough people can buy them for you to remain a profitable company.

- if the price is too high or the product flawed and people don't buy then that's Apple's or AT&T's headache. freakout himself is pointing out that people have a choice. At least 500,000 iPhone sales in a weekend imply that the iphone's value is at an acceptable price for the market. A company can price its products at whatever level and people then make their decision - if the company prices wrong then it's up to it to adjust accordingly or go out of business, take a hint Palm!

- If you want a definition of unreasonably high then consider in the UK:
an unlocked Samsung Blackjack with built-in wi-fi (SGH-i600) costs £285 ($570)
an unlocked Palm 750 with the same features but bulkier and lacking wifi costs £399 ($800)

So a UK customer is paying an extra $230 for the "privilege" of having the Palm badge and no wifi on their Windows Mobile device.

Now that's what I call unreasonably high for most people.
Well, as I said earlier, people (and companies) have their choice.

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/7/2007 8:55:18 AM #
I'm talking about the US market Chia. What's the bet the international iPhones are even more horribly expensive?
iPhone price is irrelevant to the argument
ChiA @ 7/7/2007 10:40:22 AM #
freakout said
I'm talking about the US market

Well if you're free to sit in Australia passing judgement on a device on sale only in the USA which you've never touched then I'm just as free to express my own opinions.

My points and observations apply to all markets, including the US, except those where people are coerced into buying a product...

The price of iPhones in any market is irrelevant to my arguments that people will pay for what is the perceived value of the product, if the product is priced way above what people perceive its value to be then it will not sell.

It is a company's duty to make as much money as possible and it achieves that by charging as high a price as possible for its goods and services. If enough people value its goods at the price demanded then it's successful, otherwise it has to look re-evaluate its pricing. Other companies compete to provide the same goods and services so how the customer perceives the value of what's offered by whom becomes more complex.

Like it or lump it, you perceive the iPhone as being too highly priced, and you're entitled to that perception, but at least 500,000 think different to yourself. I suspect none of the excutives at either Apple nor AT&T are losing sleep over your perception.

Judging from Palm's recent results I suspect their executives are losing sleep over people's perception of the Treo.

As I said before, if people perceive spending an extra $230 on a WinMob device with a Palm badge, no wifi and a threaded SMS application is good value for money then good luck to them!


Incidentally, w.r.t to the US market, visit Amazon.com and you'll see:
Samsung Blackjack (US model with no wifi) $0 with 2 year contract to AT&T
Palm Treo 750 $299 with 2 year contract to AT&T

maybe the best things in life are free...

RE: Ever touched an iPhone
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:12:28 AM #
Well if you're free to sit in Australia passing judgement on a device on sale only in the USA which you've never touched then I'm just as free to express my own opinions.

Never said you weren't. Touchy, much? :P

Basketball vs American Football: N Rounds

SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 6:51:51 AM #
1. American Football uses a ball that doesn't even roll right. AF:0 BB:1

2. American Football requires huge up-front equipment costs. AF:0 BB:2

3. You have to play American Football regardless the weather. AF:0 BB:3

4. No one can understand American Football. AF:0 BB:4

There ya have it! An unbiased comparison of American Football and Basketball!

RE: Basketball vs American Football: N Rounds
palmato @ 7/4/2007 4:10:15 PM #
SeldomVisitor, thanks for posting the sec document. A real eye opener, although a bit tedious to read.
Colligan wanted to sell the company and nobody came. Or to be more precise, one came and quickly left. Frankly I doubt Palm will still be around a year from now. After the deal it will be a much cheaper target, despite the "provisions".


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Basketball vs American Football: N Rounds
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 4:29:32 PM #
Yeah, isn't that an interesting history behind the final deal!?

It's just totally weird that someone would put something like a BILLION dollars on the line, then only THREE DAYS LATER (or two (!) depending on how you count) withdraw it!

Guess the feng shui (風水 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui) had simply changed.

Weird!

Hiawatha Bray is not a Miss!

nsbasic @ 7/4/2007 8:23:15 AM #
I've met him - he's a good guy.

More about him
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/bray/

RE: Hiawatha Bray is not a Miss!
freakout @ 7/4/2007 8:29:30 AM #
Oops. My apologies - it will be corrected.

Someone stop him...

confused+emotional @ 7/4/2007 9:18:03 AM #
...before he destroys every shred of credibility this site had! What a load of fanboy nonsense!

http://confused-emotional.blogspot.com/
RE: Someone stop him...
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:22:42 PM #
Gimme a break. See, the difference is that I've made a number of different points RE iPhone's "superiority", and you've made none.
RE: Someone stop him...
mikecane @ 7/7/2007 2:17:38 PM #
He doesn't have to. Anyone who's TRIED both an iPhone and suffered with PalmOS can tell you're not just full of sh*t, but you are probably mentally retarded in the extreme as well.

That and you'll drop your pants in public in order to get some shekels from Ryan.

God Almighty, you've created someone with no brain yet who can type. Must be a sign of Armageddon...

RE: Someone stop him...
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:15:47 AM #
I always wondered why TVoR had such animosity for you, Mike. Now I know: it's cause you're a complete and total ****wit. Ooo, look, I can be personally insulting too!

You're trying to play the man, not the ball. Shame it's so pitifully transparent. Wake me up when you actually have a point to make, dickhead.

I didn't know anyone else felt the same way

fierywater @ 7/4/2007 10:25:50 AM #
The iPhone isn't going for us, though. It's really going for iPod users with deep pockets and Apple fans. Apple hasn't marketed it all that heavily as any sort of business tool; they always focus on the iPod functions and other consumer-centric features, such as photo albums and full-screen movie viewing. Although I'm sure that they would like sales from the corporate sector, that's not their aim. The lack of a camera-less iPhone is evidence of this.

virgin describing sex

Gekko @ 7/4/2007 10:38:42 AM #

nice, well written article. but writing about the iphone without ever using one is comparable to a virgin describing the joys of sex.


RE: virgin describing sex
Hazniet @ 7/4/2007 4:36:21 PM #
Oh c'mon now. Can't you make an accurate description of the joys of sex based on user accounts and reviews of the experience?!?

This review has no ground.

________________________________________
If you feel like you're under control, you're just not going fast enough.

RE: virgin describing sex
freakout @ 7/4/2007 5:28:17 PM #
nice, well written article.

Thanks!

but writing about the iphone without ever using one is comparable to a virgin describing the joys of sex.

Actually, back in those horribly dark days before I had yet to experience those joys, I had a vastly overrated idea in my head of what it would be like. Reality was somewhat sobering...

Much like a lot of people singing the iPhone's praises, actually...

RE: virgin describing sex
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:03:02 PM #
Oh c'mon now. Can't you make an accurate description of the joys of sex based on user accounts and reviews of the experience?!?

This review has no ground.

Here are two universal UI paradigms for phones:

(1) Taps matter. If device A makes you jump through more hoops to get something done than device B, the device B wins. I couldn't give a damn if the iPhone projected a photo-realistic 3D hologram display into the air that also did a convincing rendition of a full symphony orchestra for your ringtone; if it takes up to six steps to dial a phone number then it is not as good as a device that only takes three. It's that simple.

Here's the average iPhone scenario:
1) Turn on.
2) Press Home
3) Press Phone
4) Dial number / 'flick' through page after page for contact.

Treo:
1) Turn device on and launch Phone app with "Phone" button.
2) Press+hold letter for Favorite speed dial / type a few letters of contact / dial number.

Now you tell me: which do you think would work better?

(2) One-handed usage matters, and the iPhone is clearly not built for it. It's designed to be held in one hand and manipulated with the other. That's fine for a media player and a web tablet, but it's not the best choice for a mobile phone, the users of which are often trying to operate them while on-the-go.

And the majority of what I've read on the net says that while the virtual keyboard is not as bad as feared, it's still inferior to a real, dedicated thumb board. That won't be true for everybody, of course, but if you put the best button keyboard up against the best virtual keyboard I reckon the button keyboard will come up trumps every time. Yes, that's just an opinion, but this editorial is also just an opinion and not gospel.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: virgin describing sex
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:10:53 PM #
Was he too rough with you the first time? No reacharound? Awwwwwwwww. Did you run back to your mommy sobbing hysterically once he had pulled out? Boo Hoo Hoo!

Lol. And I could have sworn all the lights were out...

RE: virgin describing sex
JayC3 @ 7/5/2007 8:08:24 AM #
I believe Tim's editorial is not surprising given the lack of news from Palm. And it also fun in sharing what our thoughts are on the subject as most of us are treo/tungsten/zire/lifedrive (not palm the company) fans. I also seem to see that not only Palm blogs are comparing the iphone with their phones, but also WM and Symbian sites are joining in the party. I do agree in some of his points that there are real advantages with the treo compared with the iphone. But that is not the point here. The iphone represents a revolution in how we use our phones and how companies sees it. When apple designed it, they thought out of the box and designed something really different. This is only the beginning as it also changed the game for the carriers (Yahoo!).

On a side note, Palm itself is not doing so well in their business. They ignored their core products (PDAs) and focused more on the smartphone market that they clearly underestimated the competition. They are looking for buyers and the Elevation deal was the best that they could get. As mentioned by tftp, The real "treo killer" is not the iphone. Its simply Palm.

RE: virgin describing sex
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 4:12:58 AM #
The iPhone can be used one-handed, or two-thumbed and you can type blind just as well on an iPhone as you can on anything with a "real" keyboard.

Also, the scenario you lay out is not quite right because the iPhone has a single page "Favorites" that you can add contacts to, making any need to scroll through a long list unnessecary - you also are not understanding how quickly the operations you describe are done, to the point where timewise I think that in many phone scenarios an IPhone user could beat a Treo user in terms of speed to execute a task. For instance, what you don't know not having used the device is that "phone" and "favorite" buttons are located in exactly the same physical position, meaning what appears to be two button presses is more like one.

And the iPhone user never has to worry about hitting that "Phone" button in his pocket.


RE: virgin describing sex
jfatz @ 7/7/2007 8:39:54 AM #
The iPhone can be used one-handed, or two-thumbed and you can type blind just as well on an iPhone as you can on anything with a "real" keyboard

TRUE blind typing...? Um... HOW?

That's one thing that tactility is absolutely NECESSARY for. I'm not going to say that the virtual keyboard is bunk (could use a little refinement, but I actually think you with practice you can go notably faster than you could on a Treo), but unless there's a "speak-out-the-letter-I'm-hovering-over" option in the Settings somewhere, just how can you blind type?

First Impressions

halcyon @ 7/4/2007 11:38:17 AM #
I played with a friend's iPhone last night. He's a winmob fan and I'm a Palm fan. Both of us felt that there was really nothing new here, just a proper implementation and of what has always been combined with Apple's usual cool-factor/hype/eye-candy/aura-of-superiority.

Instantly I was overcome with the feeling of being misled by Palm. I have always resisted the daily droning of negativity in many of the comments on this site, holding out hope as a palm user for 8 years that they would once again come on top of their game.

But when I saw this, I thought, "Man this is eye-candy. 90% of this is not revolutionary or even better than Palm, it is just packaged better." Palm could have done a lot of this a long time ago. Instead my treo 650 is really no different than the newest model being offered. Where's the incentive there. So the OS can't handle much more functionality, I'd settle for eye-candy. Like the article said, what's so hard about a better camera, etc.

I'm feeling jipped as a Palm fan. Are they even trying? I hope this puts some fight back in them.

What a joke!

Radu Coc @ 7/4/2007 2:02:57 PM #
With this mentality, described in this article, I have no doubs that Palm is in BIG troubles. They dont released any OS update from AGES, they dont released any new PALM device from AGES. HTC is releasing a PDA every month and now Apple is releasing the PDA of the future. And what are making Palm in this time? Is DELAYing for 2008 the release of any new OS. And they meantime are making useles devices like foleo and comparisions between the stoneage and present days.

Palm really dont understand ONE ESSENTIAL thing. What is missing NOW in iPhone can be fixed with a firmware update, but what is missing in the f***ng Treos can be fixit only buying a new iPhone!

RE: What a joke!
freakout @ 7/4/2007 9:10:55 PM #
A firmware update will magically install real buttons for one-touch access to your phone & messaging? Amazing what they can do with software nowadays!!
RE: What a joke!
Radu Coc @ 7/5/2007 1:38:52 PM #
"A firmware update will magically install real buttons for one-touch access to your phone & messaging?"

NO, but what the heck to use this OLD metod when with a touch of a finger you can acces this features directly into the screen?

RE: What a joke!
cervezas @ 7/5/2007 3:07:06 PM #
For what it's worth, there are some indications that future Treos will have FOTA (firmware over the air) update capability, too. Palm was hiring engineers with FOTA-related duties over a year ago: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8551/palms-open-secrets-exposed/


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: What a joke!
freakout @ 7/5/2007 8:46:16 PM #
NO, but what the heck to use this OLD metod when with a touch of a finger you can acces this features directly into the screen?

If you want to do things that way, then a Palm will oblige you: it has a touchscreen as well. The point, however, is that in order to use that touch of a finger, you first have to turn the iPhone on, then slide your finger across the screen to unlock it, then go "Home", and then go where you want. If it had a permanent "phone" button that could be cut down to two steps.

Just 'cause it's old doesn't make it bad.

An excellent unbiased comparison
jca666us @ 7/10/2007 10:26:26 PM #
is not this article. please read ars technicas review of the iPhone. An excellent unbiased article that covers the pros and cons of the iphone. Nothing like the opinion piece/hack job freakout wrote.

Note to freakout: when you grow up and become a real journalist, i hope you can write articles as well as the ars review.

RE: What a joke!
freakout @ 7/10/2007 10:46:00 PM #
Wow. Who'd ever expect an editorial to be biased? Crazy! I long to go back to the days when editorials were just lists of facts with no opinions.
RE: What a joke!
jca666us @ 7/10/2007 11:08:18 PM #
opinions based on fact are one thing. Saying you dislike the touchscreen when you've never used it is another. At least you're admitting you wrote a biased hack job.
RE: What a joke!
freakout @ 7/10/2007 11:22:41 PM #
There are things that you can tell about the virtual keyboard without having to use it. Like I said earlier, I'm done with this thread, but I suppose re-quoting myself couldn't hurt.

Imagine, for a moment, that you only had your mouse to input commands to your PC. Imagine that there's the best virtual keyboard ever designed on that PC, that predicts and corrects yada yada, that's easily manipulated by the mouse, so that typing by mouse becomes easy and intuitive. Even though this virtual keyboard is easy to use, it suddenly means that you don't have quick access to, say, CTRL-ALT-DEL, or ALT-TAB.

Smart Treo app designers integrate keyboard shortcuts into their app to help save time navigating around. Let's use Pocket Tunes 4 as our example: E for Equaliser, O for Open, H for Shuffle, L for Playlist, Z for Stop, F for Crossfading, R for Preferences, I for Song Info, K for Bookmarks, S for the Skin Menu... it goes on and on. In the Phone app, you can assign keyboard letters to your Favorites. Yes, Apple has a Favorites menu too, but it's only accessible by the touchscreen and you have to open it up first. On the Treo, just hold down that key for half a second and away you go.

On an iPhone, you gain the advantages of a large screen, and the disadvantages of restricting yourself to one input method. Which one you prefer, of course, is your own personal opinion, but it would be silly for you to deny that having so many different shortcut keys always available is a useful thing to have.

Give it up dude.

iPhone 1.0

Gekko @ 7/4/2007 2:27:49 PM #

we must remember that this is just iPhone 1.0. apple has proven itself to have a fast rate of innovation, so version 2.0 and 3.0 should be exponentially better. the Treo has really not evolved much since the Treo 600 and the PalmOS hasn't really since birth.

i'm no big fan of apple, but i have to give credit where credit is due.



RE: iPhone 1.0
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:14:12 PM #
iPhone is no doubt going to improve over time, but that doesn't mean that we should give Apple extra points for features that may or may not appear in the future. You get what you're given, as Mum is so fond of saying...
RE: iPhone 1.0
Poopie @ 7/5/2007 11:14:35 PM #
we must remember that this is just iPhone 1.0

Or... you could consider this to be the 6th generation iPod with a browser and a phone added. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod

Seriously, I just spent a few hours at the Apple store and I'm sold. Keyboard was a little awkward at first. I'll miss a few select apps like handyshopper, my golf scorekeeper, my car maintenance program, voice recorder, and a notepad where you can draw on the screen... but that's about it.

I'm sure apps will fill in some missing pieces eventually, but as-is, it works so much better than my Palms have ever worked for browsing the web... and the more I used it, I realize that the iPhone and the foleo share a lot ideas about "don't carry your data with you... access it from the web". Okay, for *most* data, I can do that. Some things I want local - like my stored passwords.

Here are the apps I want to see for iPhone:
- flash in safari
- vnc / terminal server client
- secure password storage app
- address book lookup like contacts pro where you can type on a keypad that matches any first/last/company names as you type
- multi-protocol IM client (ahem... audium?)
- video recorder from camera
- audio recorder from mic
- ability to use the rotated keyboard in every text entry box

Gonna get my iPhone tomorrow morning when they get more in...

Treo is not dead, but Palm needs something good

djdown @ 7/4/2007 3:04:26 PM #
You are quite right about the 'extras' of the Treo. Apple needs to open up third-party development. Web apps will be ok for a little while but not for very long.

Having used a Treo since the Treo 270 came out (270 to 600 to 650) I can say hands down that I prefer the all-touchscreen approach on my iPhone. Lots of buttons does provide flexible user interface options (and many people do prefer that) but it does not provide superior usability. Saying Treos win in the usability category is just incorrect. iPhones are way easier and more fun to use (my wife couldn't figure out my Treo after 6 years, but she's been using her new iPhone a lot since day 1). I do miss things about the Treo like being able to assign specific letters to dial contacts, though. Not being able to search for contacts by typing their names in the phone application is a big loss for the iPhone as well (you CAN search for contacts in the SMS application strangely!). It's almost guaranteed that that particular functionality will be added in a software update before too long but it's a definite win for the Treo now. There's a lot of little feature details like those where the maturity of the Palm interface is clear.

The virtual keyboard on the iPhone works just fine for typing and after about 4 days now I'm approaching the speed of my Treo typing. I never enjoyed typing on any of my Treos, honestly. The RIM pager I had in 1999 had a far better keyboard. Treo keyboards have always been just usable and the extra functionality the devices provided made it a worthwhile trade-off for me (over other superior keyboards). The great thing about the virtual keyboard is they can easily make it better over time, and it can change based on context (like adding a .com button when typing urls). Also, I spend MUCH more time reading on my mobile device than writing. I may be in the minority there, but I doubt it. The bigger screen makes reading emails and web pages far better.

Anyway, I think you've brought up some good points but I think a LOT of current Treo users would prefer an iPhone. There's definitely a lot of people out there who will still prefer the great selection of Palm software and the flexibility of the physical keyboard design but Palm really needs to come out with something good in a hurry if they don't want to be left as a business-only device.

Into the future there's a good chance Palm will be squeezed out by RIM on the business side and Apple on the consumer side, with Microsoft picking the bones of whatever's left.

More than this

adaptes @ 7/4/2007 3:10:32 PM #
I'm using PDAs since 1987 starting with the Atari Portfolio, passing through Sharp, Psion, Palm, Kyocera, Treo 600 and Treo 650.

I'm using my Treo with different pieces of hardware and software. So I can...

1. Read News from different perspectives (AvantGo)
2. Use a powerful PIM (Agendus Pre) with a very good email (Agendus Mail)
3. Play Go, Chess, TicTacMax, etc.
4. Use a Time manager for my work as consultant (AllTime 4)
5. Sync my PDA by cable, bluetooth, phone and Wi-Fi (best for email, if you don't want any junk mail)
6. Use different media player (like mOcean, Kinoma) with bluetooth headphone (Softick Audio Gateway)
7. Work with any documents Word, Excel, PowerPoint (Documents to Go)
8. Make PowerPoint presentation directly from my PDA to the projector (Margi)
9. Use a bluetooth keyboard for creating, editing Office documents (Freedom)
10. Do chatting with every chat network (Mundu is versatile!)
11. Create a VPN connexion (Mergic) with my computers at office to dowload or upload any files (WiFile Pro)
12. Do remote connecting (Palm VNC) to take sage control of my main PC at the office
13. Identify phone calls by message voice (mRing) or special tones
14. Use my voice to initiate calls or launche applications (Voice launcher)
15. Record incoming or outgoing phone calls (mVoice)
16. Keep my finances sync with my bank (PocketQuicken)
17. Access to very good dictionaries (Ultralingua)
18. Use GoogleMaps
19. Safe backup on SD card (Backupbuddy)
20. Access Statistics sofware when needed (PDAStats)
21. Still have enough main memory with a good launcher (PowerRun)
22. Manage the system (FileZ,SoftReset).
23. Manage my weight, exercise and diet (BWM)
24... and phone!

So, when the IPhone will be able to do thoses real functions, I'll begin to look at it. Mainwhile, it's just a nice gadget.


RE: More than this
Valhala @ 7/4/2007 11:50:44 PM #
You sound like you spend 16 hours a day fondling your treo doing all that.

RE: More than this
JayC3 @ 7/5/2007 7:47:38 AM #
Wow ! So honestly, how many times do you need to reset your treo within 1 day? Or at least within 1 week? :)

RE: More than this
JayC3 @ 7/5/2007 7:53:44 AM #
Another thing is that I would rather have a stable phone (no lag, no sudden resets or anything) with limited features, than have a very, very flexible phone with tons of apps but I does reset every day or twice a day. I would rather do most of my task in my laptop or desktop as using the treo for these kinds of application is really cumbersome for. Anyway, that's just me ^_^

RE: More than this
adaptes @ 7/5/2007 10:07:15 AM #
Reset... my Work PC need it too !

It's cumbersome... yes the Treo can freeze and reset. Those effects occur less often when you learn how to use your applications. And I don't pass to much time on this. For me it's the perfect tool to move with. I can access to all my data. When I'm out of office, I can transfer files via bluetooth to my tablet PC from my PCs at work through the Treo, keep tracks of rendez-vous, tasks, notes, etc.

When the IPhone will give half of this, I'll look at it. Truly, the force of the Treo come from the third part companies, not from Palm...

But right now, IPhone is still closed to third apps!

RE: More than this
JayC3 @ 7/5/2007 12:58:52 PM #
Every computer (Windows, Mac, Unix, etc) needs to reboot (or reset sometimes) once in a while. This is the problem with Palm, they had so many 3rd party applications but they didn't made an effort to ensure that apps installed in their device will not crash. How many times do we hear horror stories from Palm support asking what 3rd party apps did we install? I am not sure why they took the windows route for the application (initially it is good, in the long run it actually made it worse). What most people are doing now is balancing their treos. Ensuring the it will not tip the device into a reset. Don't you get tired of this balancing act? Its actually limiting your mobile experience. If Palm ensured even before that it certified apps to prevent their devices from crashing, it will be a whole new ball game.

Honestly, I don't think will make it through the rest of next year, most probably they will get bought out again and it will be the whole 3Com deja vu again. Don't get me wrong, I love the treo and I welcome the iphone in the industry. I'm just so disappointed where palm is heading. The founders (Ed, Jeff and Donna) should all resign and let the new guys take over. I guess the founders thought that the treo is the perfect device that does not need to be changed... Why did they have to ruin the treo.... :( They created and killed it.. nice one Palm Founders..

Palm is in trouble!

LupinTheThird @ 7/4/2007 3:35:33 PM #
I've been a Treo user for about 3 years. Treo 600 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 750. I was the biggest Treo fan out there. Until the iPhone it has been my only phone since 2004.

I'm now an iPhone believer.

Yes, much of what the iPhone does has been done by the Treo for a long time: web browsing, email, music, contacts, phone.

But the difference is the *way* the iPhone does it. All of the main functions are far more accessible than the Treo and they are more compelling to use...bigger display, higher resolution, beautiful transition effects, fast switching without menus, a single home button always gets you back. Give a Treo to to your mother, and give an iPhone to your mother, ask her to bring up some photos and see who finds it first! Ask them to get back to the home screen, and see which is easier for the average person.

And the device is far more physically compelling. Looking at a Treo 700 next to an iPhone is like looking at 1977 vs. 2007. Try to find me any sane adult who wouldn't agree. It's about twice as thin as the thinnest Treo, with the metallic finish around the edges and back giving it a sleek, futuristic look. Meanwhile the Treo 600, three years old, is about the same thickness as one of the the latest Treos released, the 700p. There has been almost NO hardware innovation at Palm over the past 4 years! Seriously, place a Treo 600 next to a Treo 680 and compare for yourself. They look like they came out at about the same time, not almost 4 years apart!

Apple has sold an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 iPhones during the first THREE DAYS of it's availability. For reference, that's more than the number of all Treos sold in the first THREE MONTHS of 2006! The iPhone has marketing genius behind it that successfully communicated the fact that it does everything in a much more visually compelling and simpler way than any other smartphone out there, including the Treo. That's 500,000 customers that won't be buying Treos! When was the last time anyone camped out for a Treo?

Combine this with fact that Palm's profits are down 44% for their latest earnings quarter, and the fact that Apple will be relasing more software updates for the iPhone, as well as releasing the iPhone in Europe and Asia within the next 12-18 months, and this spells doom for Palm.

They are already getting eaten alive by low cost competitors such as the Blackjack, which is forcing them to reduce prices and thereby reduce profits. On the enterprise end they are getting squeezed by Blackberry, who is releasing ever smaller and thinner devices to go with their industry-defining push email server solution. Palm and Microsoft failed miserably to compete against Blackberry with the Windows Mobile Treos. This is not a problem for Microsoft because they have money and time to burn, but it was potentially a fatal blunder for Palm!

And please, don't start talking about Palm's management. As long as old Eddy is the captain, don't expect to see a significant turn towards innovation and solid execution. His version of innovation is shipping all development to China! (Just listen to the last earnings call). My note to Ed: China is good for cheap manufacturing, not innovative software, dummy!

The iPhone era just ushered in the beginning of the final chapter for Palm. *Every* innovation, without exception, brought by the iPhone, could have been introduced by Palm. Apple has really stolen the rug from under Palm's feet with this one. It's really quite amazing if you think about it...this is like having a 300 lb bully move into your living room without you knowing it!

I predict Palm getting sold for an insultingly low cost within the next 3 years. In 2008 Apple will be shipping millions of iPhones with new features and different configurations, while Palm will still be shipping Garnet on the Treo XXX!

It will be comical/sad.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
jca666us @ 7/4/2007 4:35:10 PM #
Maybe if we're lucky, apple will buy palm for their name and release "business" iphones under the treo name...lol!
RE: Palm is in trouble!
sgiga @ 7/4/2007 5:57:53 PM #
The JesusPhone is no *phone*. It is a multimedia gadget with phone capabilities. Take a look at the products from HTC. They have smartphones *and* PDA-phones clearly differentiated in their gallery. The difference is that smartphones are phones, while PDA-phones are - well - PDAs with phone capabilities.

I know several people with PDA phones (HTC), and all of them bring their PDA (phone) and their ordinary phone because after a couple of weeks with menues, submenues and getting just plain sick of not being able to dial properly and to use one hand, they give up. An ordinary phone is simply MUCH easier to use as a phone, and regardless of fancy looks and flashy media, using a phone as a phone is a large percentage of it's use.

I'm not saying that the GSM radio in the PDA is useless, but the use is more in datatransfer than as a phone. I am 100% sure that if the JesusPhone was offered with WiFi only, and no GSM, it would sell just as good because of the hype alone (It would probably also be a much better thought-through device, all considered). I am also 100% sure that a lot (a majority) of iPhone users will wake up some day in a couple of weeks time and regret that they ever purchased this reduculously expensive toy. It IS a toy, a multimedia gadget with less than average phone capabilities.

But, a real cool device coming soon is this:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/exclusive/motorola-zante-looks-even-shinier-than-you-know-who-also-runs-on-edge-274943.php
So good looking that you want to eat it, and you can use it as well. THIS will be the Treo killer.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
sgiga @ 7/4/2007 6:10:59 PM #
RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/4/2007 7:18:46 PM #
Give a Treo to to your mother, and give an iPhone to your mother, ask her to bring up some photos and see who finds it first! Ask them to get back to the home screen, and see which is easier for the average person.

Since iPhone's "Home" button is unlabeled, whereas the Treo's has a picture of a freaking house on it, I'd wager the Treo would win that contest. And the actual screens themselves are freaking identical - a grid of icons for the various programs. Treos have one labled "Pics and Videos", iPhone has one labeled "Photos".

Sorry, I just don't see what's so great about the way iPhone does it.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
jca666us @ 7/4/2007 8:32:41 PM #
You just don't get it...iphone is for regular people. Treo isn't...
RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/4/2007 9:13:22 PM #
500 bucks and it's for regular people? Ha! Dude, something like the RAZR is for "regular people": cheap and disposable. iPhone 1.0 is for people with more money than sense.
RE: Palm is in trouble!
Gekko @ 7/4/2007 9:28:17 PM #
RE: Palm is in trouble!
jca666us @ 7/4/2007 11:12:53 PM #
500 bucks and it's for regular people? Ha! Dude, something like the RAZR is for "regular people": cheap and disposable. iPhone 1.0 is for people with more money than sense.

700,000 phones in three days. iphone is for regular people - i.e. people that want a phone that just works (IPHONE). Not a device you have to reboot when an app. crashes the device (TREO).

Keep writing fluff opinion pieces - that won't make the Treo any more usable or stable.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/4/2007 11:36:14 PM #
There are billions of mobile phones sold every year. In the grand scheme of things, 700,000 is small potatoes, and such huge numbers were to be expected when the Apple Hype Machine and an obliging media are promoting it day-in and day-out. Let's see if the craze lasts the month.

But even if Apple sell ten trillion iPhones, that's not proof it's a better device. As I said in another thread: if popularity is indicative of quality, then Britney Spears is one of the greatest musicians to have ever lived.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
Valhala @ 7/5/2007 12:24:10 AM #
Treo apoligists try to convince that the Treo is technicaly superior to the Iphone, i.e. tons of useless features not used except by the most fanatical of Treo Devotees.
Eventually you will get over your disppointment and feverent adherence to a pig of a moble device, and you know which device that is.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/5/2007 1:30:52 AM #
I have yet to see you put forward a compelling case for the iPhone's superiority, Valhalla. Wake me up when you have a point.
RE: Palm is in trouble!
Valhala @ 7/5/2007 3:08:51 AM #
Palm's DNA is at an evolutionary dead end with the treo line. Inbreeding of the various Treo line results in the stillborn fooleo. Face it, Palm is worst then inbred hillbillies, They had the capital, $600 million US to hire the best engineers to make the Iphone themselves, what did all that relsult in? a pig of mobile device's Lifedrive, Treo, fooleo et.al. The invectives and perjoratives aimed at Palm are deserved given the resource Palm had wasted.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
LupinTheThird @ 7/5/2007 4:17:53 AM #
freakout, am I correct that you have never used an iPhone? How does it make sense for you to compare an iPhone to a Treo when you have never actually used an iPhone?

Honestly, I challenge you to use an iPhone for one week, then come back and tell me it does not have a more compelling user experience than a Treo. I challenge you.

Palm is years away from anything like the iPhone, if at all!

Palm has EVERYTHING under control. Please return to your seats...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/5/2007 5:00:06 AM #
freakout, am I correct that you have never used an iPhone? How does it make sense for you to compare an iPhone to a Treo when you have never actually used an iPhone?

Honestly, I challenge you to use an iPhone for one week, then come back and tell me it does not have a more compelling user experience than a Treo. I challenge you.

He can't do that, since he lives in some dumba$$ trailer trash-infested country "Down Under" where 98% of the population doesn't even have running water. Or teeth. And most of the "women" look like members of the 1984 East German "women's" national swim team (later sponsored by Gillette). The closest he'll ever get to the jPhone is either putting a copy of iPhoney onto his POS Treo 680 or using TCPMP to repeatedly play a video of the jPhone in action while he drools like a rabid dingo.

Palm is years away from anything like the iPhone, if at all!

Nonsense. HTC (and everyone else) will be pumping out clones of the JesusPhone before the end of 2007. Of course, they won't have the jPhone OS, but that's just a minor detail, right? Expect the Palm/HTC "iPhone Killer" Real Soon Now.


TVoR

RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/5/2007 5:46:09 AM #
LupinTheThird:
freakout, am I correct that you have never used an iPhone? How does it make sense for you to compare an iPhone to a Treo when you have never actually used an iPhone?

You are correct. It makes sense for me to compare them for a few reasons:

1) Ryan (AKA Emperor Kairer of PIC ;) ) asked me to.
2) There's no law against opinions, right?
3) iPhone has received massive coverage from nearly every media outlet there is. Already there have been detailed reviews, video tours, and lot of (mostly very happy) new users are reporting in, and a lot of commentary from other people who, shock horror, don't own one. Since it's often touted as a Treo-killer, it makes sense to take what information is out there and see how it matches up with what the Treo has. This is a Palm-dedicated site, after all.

Honestly, I challenge you to use an iPhone for one week, then come back and tell me it does not have a more compelling user experience than a Treo. I challenge you.

I'd love to. But there's two reasons I can't do that, and they're both points against the iPhone: it's limited to one carrier in one country, and it's 500 freaking bucks. To convince people like me to pony up that much dosh Apple have to work harder.

People seem to keep missing the fact that I really am impressed by the iPhone. The fact that Apple have come so close to besting the Treo with their first product should be sounding ear-splitting warning bells at Palm HQ. But what I'm concerned with is which one makes for a better phone, and from all the information available at hand, it's the Treo. I could draw all the same conclusions without ever having owned a Treo either - it's all public information.

TVoR:
He can't do that, since he lives in some dumba$$ trailer trash-infested country "Down Under" where 98% of the population doesn't even have running water. Or teeth. And most of the "women" look like members of the 1984 East German "women's" national swim team (later sponsored by Gillette). The closest he'll ever get to the jPhone is either putting a copy of iPhoney onto his POS Treo 680 or using TCPMP to repeatedly play a video of the jPhone in action while he drools like a rabid dingo.

Eloquent as always, Voice. Trash Oz all you like: just remember you hail from the country that elected George W Bush. Glass houses, throwing stones... :P

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Palm is in trouble!
tftp @ 7/5/2007 6:30:19 AM #
Since iPhone's "Home" button is unlabeled, whereas the Treo's has a picture of a freaking house on it, I'd wager the Treo would win that contest. And the actual screens themselves are freaking identical - a grid of icons for the various programs. Treos have one labled "Pics and Videos", iPhone has one labeled "Photos".

Apple has learned an important lesson about product development. What is important is what features they've left out, and that they haven't succumbed to assembling the most massive feature list. Palm always talked about their "Zen" and compared with WM it is Zen-like, but Apple really took that to the next level. For example, how do you view pictures on either device?

iPhone: home button, look at 12 icons, select Pictures icon
Treo: home button, look at 12 icons, don't see it. scroll down (4 button pushes), don't see it. scroll down, don't see it. 13 button pushes later, "Ah there it is." And this gets worse if you have more applications

Or think about making a call. Sure, the iPhone takes 6 actions (home, phone icon, etc), but let's look at the Treo. On my 680, I hit the phone button, and I see a picture of a guy standing on top of a mountain. I start dialing with my numeric keypad, but ooops! it starts looking up somebody in my contacts. I back out, hit the left arrow 3 times to get to the keypad, then I can finally dial. Overall, that took a lot longer.

It is clear, the iPhone isn't for "power users" who like to customize their device. But Apple did successfully make a smartphone for the masses, which Palm and Microsoft have been unable to do. Apple sold 700K in 3 days, more than Palm sells in a quarter. Palm's niche has just been made smaller...

RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/5/2007 7:12:03 AM #
iPhone: home button, look at 12 icons, select Pictures icon
Treo: home button, look at 12 icons, don't see it. scroll down (4 button pushes), don't see it. scroll down, don't see it. 13 button pushes later, "Ah there it is." And this gets worse if you have more applications

Okay, I'll go along with that. But when/if Apple open up the iPhone to extra applications, won't they face exactly the same problem? At least on the Treo, you have an ever-present keyboard on which you just need to type P to jump straight to that section.

Or think about making a call. Sure, the iPhone takes 6 actions (home, phone icon, etc), but let's look at the Treo. On my 680, I hit the phone button, and I see a picture of a guy standing on top of a mountain. I start dialing with my numeric keypad, but ooops! it starts looking up somebody in my contacts. I back out, hit the left arrow 3 times to get to the keypad, then I can finally dial. Overall, that took a lot longer.

That's true for a Treo 680, but not a 755p, which unless I'm very much mistaken, defaults to a Dial Pad view. The 680 is very easy to change though; you have a choice between whether or not typing starts a contact search or dials a number, and you can set the default view to a Dial Pad, or your Favorites, or your Contacts, whatever you like. And that kind of choice is what sets a Treo apart: configure it however you want. Yes, that means things become a little more complex for the Average Joe. But it also makes it a better phone.

It is clear, the iPhone isn't for "power users" who like to customize their device. But Apple did successfully make a smartphone for the masses, which Palm and Microsoft have been unable to do.

Accepted.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
javispedro @ 7/5/2007 7:31:32 AM #
Except that the iPhone is NO smartphone. It's a dumbphone. If you call the iPhone a smartphone then the SE K800 is one of the best smartphones ever made.

Other than that, the iPhone is a cool toy.

I still have to see why is it better that the PalmOS's UI "usability"-wise. Not that I dislike Apple's GUIs, but PalmOS is still the GUI that "even a fool could enter a DateBook note". I won't say that early that Apple made a phone for the masses.
This is not Microsoft's GUI "we just copy" vs Apple's GUI "we invented GUI after all". This is Palm's GUI "we invented the PDA & made it sell" vs Apple's GUI "we invented the iPod & made it sell", a giant's battle.

RE: Palm is in trouble!
heavyduty @ 7/6/2007 4:41:00 AM #
freakout @ 7/5/2007 7:12:03 AM #
Or think about making a call. Sure, the iPhone takes 6 actions (home, phone icon, etc), but let's look at the Treo. On my 680, I hit the phone button, and I see a picture of a guy standing on top of a mountain. I start dialing with my numeric keypad, but ooops! it starts looking up somebody in my contacts. I back out, hit the left arrow 3 times to get to the keypad, then I can finally dial. Overall, that took a lot longer.

That's true for a Treo 680, but not a 755p, which unless I'm very much mistaken, defaults to a Dial Pad view. The 680 is very easy to change though; you have a choice between whether or not typing starts a contact search or dials a number, and you can set the default view to a Dial Pad, or your Favorites, or your Contacts, whatever you like. And that kind of choice is what sets a Treo apart: configure it however you want. Yes, that means things become a little more complex for the Average Joe. But it also makes it a better phone.


Actually that's not correct. If you type a phone number on the Treo, even if it defaults to a contact search, it will automatically switch to the dial pad and enter the digits typed instead of doing a letter search as soon as the letter/numbers typed doesn't match a contact.

You should know your devices better :)

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/6/2007 5:07:14 AM #
^^ Oh, but I do. That behaviour is indeed true of the 650, but not the Treo 680, which will just beep at you if you type a string that doesn't match a contact. Can't speak for the 700 or 755.

Thanks anyway. :)

RE: Palm is in trouble!
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 4:01:01 AM #
Adding new apps to the iPhone would presumably have them live behind a seperate icon on the desktop, or possibly allow you to customize which icons appear when you hit "home" and which are relegated to an "other" kind of sub-screen... I can't see Apple ever having Home take you directly to a screen that scrolls. A big part of the point of the home screen is that you can memorize where buttons are when you get there so there's no delay to reach the function you want.


RE: Palm is in trouble!
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 4:04:40 AM #
Aditionally, although you can learn a lot by reading many reviews your comparison seems to have taken overmuch from any review that didn't like the iPhone keyboard, as many have said the keyboard is very usable.

Lastly, there is a reason why the iPhone started to sell out in Apple stores Monday & Tuesday - after the weekend, and after people had a chance to try them at home and at work from other people who had bought them. This might not be the greatest business phone yet, but I was astounded at how many co-workers bought them, a number after they had a chance to try mine (includng some that made constant fun of the iPhone - before they held and used it).


RE: Palm is in trouble!
jfatz @ 7/7/2007 8:47:03 AM #
Since iPhone's "Home" button is unlabeled, whereas the Treo's has a picture of a freaking house on it, I'd wager the Treo would win that contest.

You've obviously never met any mothers. ;-) 90% of them would be flipping the device every which way to make SURE they see EVERY button so they KNOW they might not be hitting the WRONG one... and then hesitate for a few minutes regardless, asking anyone in earshot what to do.

Basically, anyone born before the 70's who didn't get EMPLOYED by the tech sector is almost completely useless with tech. Heh...

RE: Palm is in trouble!
freakout @ 7/8/2007 8:29:44 PM #
^^ Lol. Good point. It's taken me years just to teach my Mum how to check her email...

Contest ends tragically in first round: Treo KILLED by iPhone.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 9:44:33 PM #
By Michelle Heung, SF Bay Gazette Sports
June 29, 2007

LAS VEGAS – The fight world watched in shock and horror as aging reigning smartphone champ Palm Treo was quickly overcome by a barrage of thundering uppercuts to the jaw savagely delivered by #1 ranked contender, Apple iPhone within seconds of the opening round of their title bout on Friday. The slowfooted, overmatched Palm Treo was pounded relentlessly into a corner by Apple iPhone and was unable to defend any of the estimated flurry of 30 blows delivered within a 25 second span. At one point Apple iPhone appeared to be using Palm Treo's head as a speed bag, rocking the champ's jaw with a series of rapid-fire bombs. At 1:16 referee Carl Yankowski looked to Palm Treo's cornermen Ed "Sissy" Colligan, Jeff "Brainboy" Hawkins and Bill "Network" Coleman, but they refused to throw in the towel. At 1:36 Apple iPhone unleashed a vicious uppercut to the glassy-eyed Palm Treo's jaw and the champ immediately crumpled to the mat, bleeding profusely.

Referee Carl Yankowski motioned for ring doctor Todd Bradley as Palm Treo lay motionless. Bradley rushed into the ring and assisted by paramedics worked feverishly to revive Palm Treo as the hushed crowd looked on. Bradley then called for the stretcher and Palm Treo was quickly MedEvaced to the University Medical Center trauma center. Internationally-renown neurosurgeon, Dr. Geoffrey T. Manley - chief of the Head Injury Unit at UMC - performed an emergency craniotomy and attempted to control the brain swelling that Palm Treo had sustained. Tragically, the former champion never regained consciousness and passed away at 11:31 p.m., June 29.

Palm Treo is survived by his wife, Palm TX, children Palm TE2 and Palm Z22 and is predeceased by his child and constant companion, Palm FOOLeo.

In lieu of flowers the Palm family have requested friends and family contribute to the PalmLinux R&D Fund. Private services will be held on July 5 at an undisclosed local church.


TVoR
Copyright 2007

Let's edit that a little
freakout @ 7/4/2007 10:10:51 PM #
By Michelle Heung, SF Bay Gazette Sports
June 29, 2007

LAS VEGAS – The fight world watched in shock and horror as fresh-faced smartphone newcomer Apple iPhone was quickly overcome by a barrage of thundering uppercuts to the jaw savagely delivered by #1 ranked contender, Palm Treo within seconds of the opening round of their title bout on Friday. The preening Apple iPhone was pounded relentlessly into a corner by Palm Treo, and was unable to defend itself in time as it was too busy checking its reflection in a pocket vanity mirror as it applied lipstick and blush. At one point Palm Treo appeared to be using Apple iPhone's head as a speed bag, rocking the pretty boy's jaw with a series of rapid-fire bombs... (snip!) At 1:36 Palm Treo unleashed a vicious uppercut to the glassy-eyed Apple iPhone's jaw and the champ immediately crumpled to the mat, bleeding profusely. Spectators say it was too busy doing little squeezing motions with its fingers to notice the fist heading towards its face...

****************************************************************

Amusing, but hardly true. Both devices are actually fairly evenly matched if you break it down. As a phone, the Treo has the edge. As a mobile computer, the Treo has the edge. As an internet tablet, and a media player, iPhone has the edge. But most importantly, the Treo has the edge on price: iPhone is ridiculously expensive for a non-expandable device. That's what tips the scales for me.

RE: Contest ends tragically in first round: Treo KILLED by iPhone
JayC3 @ 7/5/2007 7:37:16 AM #
The treo is not particularly cheap in other parts of the world where we have to pony up the whole amount without carrier subsidies. In Asia, the Treo 750 is 766 USD, Treo 680 is 510 USD (you can check the Palm site for Asia and you'll see what I mean). This is the reason why not much people in Asia is picking it up compared to the WM devices that is being sold by HTC here. Palm needs to price it this way to have a very good profit for the small asian market. If the iPhone does come out with a similar price point (in 2008), it will sell a lot for sure. :)

FOOLeo, PLiPKi and JesusPhone = new sitcom?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/6/2007 11:56:40 PM #
Amusing, but hardly true. Both devices are actually fairly evenly matched if you break it down.


You are wrong and Palm is DEAD wrong. FOOLeo and PLiPKi will not save Palm from the wrath of JesusPhone.


TVoR

New sitcom. 'Big Phoney', maybe?
freakout @ 7/8/2007 7:00:42 PM #
iPhone 2.0 may well be Palm's death knell, but 1.0 is still lacking.

I was going to respond to this article on my Treo

T_W @ 7/4/2007 11:05:40 PM #
I was going to respond to this article on my Treo but Blazer crashed the phone when I hit send.

I then was going to compose an email to the author, but Versa Mail had corrupted its database again and had eaten all of my email accounts.

.

VampireLestat @ 7/4/2007 11:38:58 PM #
I love my Treo 680.

Dustbin of Obsolute and Archaic technology

Valhala @ 7/5/2007 12:40:36 AM #
Dustbin of Obsolute and Archaic technology,
Pony Express Circa 1852
Telegraph, Western Union 1951
Platex girdle circa 1962
Lear 8 track Tape Circa 1974
RCA CED video player circa 1981
Phillips LD video player 1990
Sony Walkman circa 1995
VHS video tape player 1999
Palm Treo currently on life support

RE: Dustbin of Obsolute and Archaic technology
sgiga @ 7/5/2007 1:30:44 AM #
- and
iPhone 2007.

In half a years time we will see something truly cool.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/mobile-phones/news/2007/07/05/Nokia-Embraces-Tactile-Touchscreens/p1
Keep in mind also that the JesusPhone has a 700 MHz processor with 1 gig of RAM. This is unheard of in any phone. Nokia typically have 200 MHz and 64 MB RAM. The JesusPhone is first and foremost a bruteforce device, simply a shrinked Mac, and is therefore hardly a revolutionary except for maybe power management.

More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/5/2007 3:55:58 AM #
http://investor.palm.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-149359


Start here and try not to laugh too hard:


http://investor.palm.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-149359

Elevation + mystery partner (Deep Throat) initially offered to buy ALL of Palm's stock, and then Deep Throat pulls out 3 days later! Psych!!! Suckers!!! Now you'd better take whatever you can get, Benhamou!:

"On March 26, 2007, Elevation and a separate private equity firm submitted a joint letter with an offer to buy 100% of our shares for $19-$20 per share. On March 29, 2006, Elevation informed us that its private equity partner no longer wished to pursue an acquisition transaction."


DESPERATE TIMES, DESPERATE MEASURES...




TVoR


Palm shareholders take it up the A**. Film at 11.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/5/2007 4:33:06 AM #
http://investor.palm.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-149359

Palm’s Reasons for the Transaction

The board of directors unanimously decided to pursue the Transaction because of the potential financial benefits of the Transaction to Palm’s stockholders, as well as the potential opportunity for Palm to enhance and accelerate significantly its product development efforts through an affiliation with Elevation and Mr. Rubinstein’s leadership position with us.

In particular, the Transaction provides an immediate return to stockholders in the form of the $9.00 per share cash distribution, while allowing stockholders the continued opportunity to participate in future potential growth of Palm and appreciation in its stock price. The board of directors also believes that the opportunity to add Jonathan Rubinstein as executive chairman of the board will allow us to develop new and innovative products and bring them to market quickly and efficiently. Mr. Rubinstein has extensive product development and engineering experience including leading the team that developed the iMac and, most recently, as the senior vice president and general manager of Apple’s iPod division. The board of directors believes that Mr. Rubinstein will significantly increase our ability to recruit and retain talented development and marketing personnel, which will be critical to our future success. In addition, the board of directors believes that the addition of two Elevation principals, Fred Anderson and Roger McNamee, to the board will provide valuable assistance to our strategic planning. Fred Anderson served as Chief Financial Officer at Apple for eight years and was instrumental in its turnaround and restructuring during the late 1990’s, and Roger McNamee has been a technology investor for nearly twenty-five years and is recognized for his insights about technology trends and product strategy. In addition, the board of directors believes Elevation’s long-term investment perspective will provide support to enable us to realize the strategic benefits of our product development efforts.


What a load of crap. In other words: Here's $9 and a fistful of penny stock Mr./Ms. Shareholder... now go bugger off and leave us to engage in some more corporate intrigue. Don't mind us as we blow all of (y)our massive cash reserves AND go into debt to the tune of almost half a BILLION dollars so we can pay you off and let Elevation get $25% of Palm at almost half the going rate. And what does Palm get for its almost BILLION dollar "gift" to Elevation? The hope that Rubinstein can somehow work his magic and save the company from years of incompetent management.


Hmmmmmm... this doesn't sound like a very good deal for Palm, does it? So after half a year of desperately shopping the company around, this Elevation scam was the BEST Palm could come up with? WOW.

OK, so Elevation comes in, cuts Palm's workforce in half, outcources EVERYTHING, scales back/refocuses the FOOLeo pipe dream, turns Palm into a brand name for HTC, releases a PalmLinux "iPhone Killer ("PLiPKi"). Then what? Merges with HTC? (To "augment their synergies" blah blah blah...?)


Corporate America is truly insane. (Crazy as a fox...)


TVoR

RE: More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!
sgiga @ 7/5/2007 5:42:57 AM #
As I see it Palm has one major technology and that is PalmLinux. I doubt that HTC will go for that slnce they are all Microsoft. 80 perc of WM deveces sold world wide are made by HTC. But who knows?
RE: More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!
tftp @ 7/5/2007 6:15:09 AM #
Just goes to prove that the real "Treo killer" is Palm itself!
RE: More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/5/2007 6:43:05 AM #
As noted elsewhere, PALM =had= to reorient themselves - their handheld business is essentially dead (for whatever reason) and their smartphone business is getting killed because The Competition is HUGE compared to them and simply can steamroll over them (Nokia, for example, releases a new phone on average every =9 days=; when they apply THAT power to their smartphone business what can thrice-per-decade PALM do?).

Downsizing and reorientation - both NECESSARY moves by a company getting killed in their own sector. This "deal" performs a major part of that.

Somewhere else around PIC someone posted that PALM's "strength" was PalmLinux (!!!); if THAT's PALM's strength then ... well ...

=========

That $9 nontaxable dividend is interesting and MAY be a by-product of the manner in which the "deal" is being performed - since this is NOT a buyout but "merely" a purchase of ONLY 25% (er...27%?) of the company, PALM may have had to jump through some hoops via forming and merging with a company SOLELY to get that "dividend" into "simply investment value back" nontaxable status.


RE: More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!
TreoAnon @ 7/5/2007 9:42:08 AM #
If you own any Palm shares, vote against this de-investment deal.

RE: More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!
mikecane @ 7/6/2007 10:52:25 AM #
>>>PalmLinux "iPhone Killer ("PLiPKi")

I am so glad I had swallowed the soda before reading that. I would have drowned.

RE: More shocking details about the Palm stock deal EXPOSED!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/7/2007 12:02:40 AM #
>>>>>>PalmLinux "iPhone Killer ("PLiPKi")

I am so glad I had swallowed the soda before reading that. I would have drowned.


Damn! Mental note to self: Must... try... harder...


TVoR

Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works

honus @ 7/5/2007 9:36:24 AM #
My Treo resets all the time, sometimes while I'm talking to someone. Blame 3rd party apps all you want, but the truth is there is no excuse for PalmOS not to have memory protection by now. There is no excuse for an application to be able to take down the entire phone, it doesn't have to be the case, but it is. Safari and the email app on my iPhone crash. But the phone has never reset on me once. So for that alone, it beats my Treo.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
honus @ 7/5/2007 9:53:00 AM #
Other things this comparison conveniently left out: size, battery life.
My 680 can't go a day without being charged. So far my iPhone has no problem going 24 hours. Of course my iPhone doesn't support IMAP IDLE on my personal email accounts so maybe it doesn't have the drain from constant data connection that the Treo has.

Anyway, things are far from being as clear cut as this article tries to make it.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/5/2007 9:16:09 PM #
Size and battery life were mentioned in the Hardware section. They weren't 'conveniently left out'.
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
jca666us @ 7/8/2007 9:35:05 AM #
They weren't conveniently left out, but they weren't rated appropriately.

You had in your mind to rate the Treo higher than the iPhone before you ever wrote the article - and skewed the results to match that outcome.

Things like stability (which you blindly gloss over) and usability (which you mistakenly refer to as ergonomics) aren't weighted properly in the "article".

Have you gone back and corrected any of the mistakes in your "article" yet?

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/8/2007 6:31:34 PM #
Lol. Dude, it's an editorial. An opinion piece. Just because you don't think the various features were weighted appropriately, doesn't mean it's going to changed. Get over it.

Anyway, just to remind you, my final conclusion was that the Treo has its problems, but it is a more useful and productive device.

*Three different user input methods, maximum efficiency.
*Compatible with more kinds of email.
*Hundreds of different third-party applications makes it more versatile than the iPhone. Before you go whinging that it's only a matter of time before these are available on iPhone, the point is they're not here yet.
*MMS support makes it a more fully-featured messenger.

You can scream. You can cry. You can throw yourself on the floor, kick your legs and pound your fists up and down. But the iPhone 1.0 is a very limited device, and only the most rabid, die-hard Apple Cultists would disagree. As a slick, fancy iPod the iPhone is unquestionably the superior device. As a smartphone the Treo holds the upper hand.

Get over it. Let go...

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
abosco @ 7/8/2007 7:07:11 PM #
>>But the iPhone 1.0 is a very limited device, and only the most rabid, die-hard Apple Cultists would disagree.

Yes, either that or 500,000 people in two days.

The best arguments you have for the Treo are the fact that it has a hard keyboard, traditional "green & red" phone buttons, and Palm OS applications. In all honesty, EVERYTHING ELSE IS IN THE iPHONE'S FAVOR. Battery life, screen real estate, interface, syncing, form factor & design, and storage space are all superior on the iPhone. And as we recently discovered, the total cost of both devices after two years is within spitting distance of each other. Get that 8 GB SD card for the Treo you keep trumping, and suddenly the Treo is more expensive. And then those third party applications for productivity? A lot more money.

What I'm saying is you need to stick to two arguments. Number one, you can edit native Office documents and other important PRODUCTIVITY applications due to third party software support. Number two, you can make a phone call from a cold start marginally quicker. Anything else you care to comment on, including battery life, keyboard usage, and UI features should be kept out of an editorial piece. Why? Because it's inaccurate when you haven't actually touched one yourself. At least Mike Cane goes to Fry's and tries a device for three minutes before he bitches about it. Why can't you? If you do what I say, you'll realize more than half of your editorial needs to be edited.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/8/2007 7:37:44 PM #
Yes, either that or 500,000 people in two days.

Doesn't mean they don't think it's limited. Just means they're happy with those limitations. Which, by the way, I've never claimed wasn't possible: just that it's a less versatile device.

In all honesty, EVERYTHING ELSE IS IN THE iPHONE'S FAVOR.
In your opinion.

Battery life,
Yep, you can get a day out of an iPhone, just like you can get a day out of a Treo. You can probably get a slightly longer day out of the iPhone, but then you'll be doing less with it as well.

screen real estate
Already acknowledged this.

interface,
Graphically, yes. Functionally? No copy-and-paste, no one-button access to important stuff.

syncing,
Already acknowledged this.

form factor & design,
And this.

and storage space
Bzzzzt! Sorry, that wasn't the answer we were looking for. It's true that the iPhone comes with greater built-in storage space, but there's an upper limit. Whereas a Treo has removable memory cards, for infinitely expandable storage.

And as we recently discovered, the total cost of both devices after two years is within spitting distance of each other. Get that 8 GB SD card for the Treo you keep trumping, and suddenly the Treo is more expensive.

Buy an iPhone with contract today, spend 500 bucks. Buy an unlocked Treo today, with the card I keep "trumping", for $465. Or a 200 dollar Treo with contract plus card for $265. The price after two years is almost irrelevant, especially when it's such a pitiful saving.

And then those third party applications for productivity? A lot more money.

Take aforementioned $265 Treo, add $200 for a selection of the best apps. $465 total and still cheaper than the iPhone.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
abosco @ 7/8/2007 7:50:59 PM #
My point is that your entire comparison bases a lot of things on the third party capabilities of the Treo. And then in the final point, you say the Treo is cheaper, completely neglecting the added costs to get any of the functionality you outlined, which ONE HUNDRED PERCENT PROVES the Treo is more expensive. You are intentionally misleading everybody who reads this editorial with your inconsistencies.

I have nothing more to say to you.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

blah blah
freakout @ 7/8/2007 8:00:59 PM #
At least Mike Cane goes to Fry's and tries a device for three minutes before he bitches about it.

Like the Foleo?

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT PROVES the Treo is more expensive.

My GOD! Can't you read? From one post up:

And as we recently discovered, the total cost of both devices after two years is within spitting distance of each other. Get that 8 GB SD card for the Treo you keep trumping, and suddenly the Treo is more expensive.

Buy an iPhone with contract today, spend 500 bucks. Buy an unlocked Treo today, with the card I keep "trumping", for $465. Or a 200 dollar Treo with contract plus card for $265. The price after two years is almost irrelevant, especially when it's such a pitiful saving.

And then those third party applications for productivity? A lot more money.

Take aforementioned $265 Treo, add $200 for a selection of the best apps. $465 total and still cheaper than the iPhone.

Quit wasting my time.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: where's the beef?
twrock @ 7/8/2007 8:16:01 PM #
*Hundreds of different third-party applications makes it more versatile than the iPhone. Before you go whinging that it's only a matter of time before these are available on iPhone, the point is they're not here yet.

I keep seeing this idea thrown around like it is the gospel truth: "The iPhone will soon have a proper SDK and will be open to third-party software." But I keep asking myself, where's the "proof" that it really is going to happen? Does anyone have a quote from Steve Jobs that indicates this is true? What we did hear from Steve was talk of third-party apps, but they he pulled the classic bait-and-switch and said it was all limited to the browser.

Other than a bunch of "wishful thinkers" who are perpetuating this line on web forums like this one, is there any real indicators that Apple is going to really open the iPhone up? I'm truly not interested in anyone's "conjecture" at this point; there's been way too much of that already. Your "hoping" it's going to happen is nothing but a waste of my time. And even quoting Apples "televangelist" isn't really enough if he doesn't blatantly say that is what they are planning to do. He's as slick as any of the rest of them.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/8/2007 8:35:38 PM #
Steady on mate. Yes, I believe it's going to opened up eventually, because it just makes so much sense for Apple to do so. But that doesn't mean I'm giving Apple any kind of extra credit for that belief. Like you, as far as I'm concerned, until they're actually available it can't be used as a point in favour of the iPhone.
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
abosco @ 7/8/2007 10:13:05 PM #
After the large memory card, productivity software, and service contract, the Treo is more expensive. You admitted that. So explain again how your last comparison point stands?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/8/2007 10:29:52 PM #
Thought you had nothing more to say? :P

Let's repeat ourselves for the third time:

Buy an iPhone with contract today, spend 500 bucks. Buy an unlocked Treo today, with the card I keep "trumping", for $465. Or a 200 dollar Treo with contract plus card for $265. The price after two years is almost irrelevant, especially when it's such a pitiful saving.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
abosco @ 7/8/2007 10:33:53 PM #
Right, the price after two years is irrelevent because it doesn't support your argument.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/9/2007 2:12:45 AM #
Sigh. No, because two years is a very long time to wait to recoup your "investment".
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
honus @ 7/9/2007 9:37:37 AM #
I must have the only Treo 680 with a bad battery. Actually I must be really unlucky because the replacement battery is the same way. I leave the thing in a dock all day charging. It is at 100% when I leave work at 8 pm. I talk on it once, maybe for 10 minutes and by the next morning, the battery is dead.

I do the same thing with my iPhone, but I also surf the web and read email on it a bit more than the treo, and when I get up the next morning it is at 50% battery.

I also get much better coverage on my iPhone but I'm willing to blame that on T-Mobile.

I'm not a rabid Apple fan boy. I bought an iPod and replaced it with a Creative Zen Vision:M. I had a Mac laptop back in the mid 90s and hated it. I haven't touched an OS X device for more than 10 minutes and when I did I couldn't figure out how to get the "intuitive" interface to do anything. I think iTunes is a horrible program and I hate that I have to use it to do things with the iPhone and I think sticking to the "one-button mouse is the right thing" line is as dumb as sticking with Garnet for as long as Palm has.

The iPhone is missing two things right now: Exchange mail support (using ActiveSync or BB connect so that you get "instant"/"push" notification) and IMAP IDLE support so you get instant notification of personal email (it is really a crime that they couldn't get that in there and I wonder if Yahoo had something to do with it). If it had those, it would clearly beat the Treo, in my opinion. Without them, it is a toss up.

I also find it ridiculous that you keep telling people that it is an opinion piece but then also tell them that there is no question about it the Treo is better and anyone who doesn't agree is a rabid fan boy. I see that opinions only matter when they are yours.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 10:05:58 AM #
>>>At least Mike Cane goes to Fry's and tries a device for three minutes before he bitches about it.

There are NO Fry's where I am (dammit).

And I usually take longer than 3 minutes. 3 minutes it was it took this eejit to conjure up what has to be The Most Embarrassing Article Ever Published By PIC (thanks for putting my Sculley false alarm in 2nd place -- but at least I had some fekkin source in the stock world. You? -- your retarded mind! Stop listening to those voices, kid. They lead you astray!).

So, you weaselly little brat, have YOU tried a Foleo?

I'll probably fondle one before you. And it'll probably be sh*t as I've predicted.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/9/2007 10:28:44 AM #
I also find it ridiculous that you keep telling people that it is an opinion piece but then also tell them that there is no question about it the Treo is better and anyone who doesn't agree is a rabid fan boy. I see that opinions only matter when they are yours.

My argument has always been that a Treo is a more useful, productive device that's better at certain things. Which doesn't mean I don't like the iPhone, or think that it's not a superior web device or a superior iPod. I'm more than happy to have a logical argument, it's just that very few have actually offered one yet.

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/9/2007 10:32:09 AM #
So, you weaselly little brat, have YOU tried a Foleo?

No, but that's not going to stop me talking about it. You on the other hand are of the opinion that unless you've actually used a device then you can't comment on it, couldn't be right about anything. So maybe you should just never speak of it again until you buy one.

I'll probably fondle one before you. And it'll probably be sh*t as I've predicted.

Good for you, Mike. Would you like that trophy in 24-karat gold or Steve Jobs' shite?

iPhone is closed and 2.5G for good reason
cervezas @ 7/9/2007 11:09:06 AM #
Other than a bunch of "wishful thinkers" who are perpetuating this line on web forums like this one, is there any real indicators that Apple is going to really open the iPhone up?

Not that I've seen. One thing I will say is this: support for open handsets is a costly thing for the carriers. Support calls or extraordinary network data usage can easily wipe out the profit from a smartphone sale and make the subsidy a bad deal for the carrier, so the ideal smartphone from their standpoint is one like the iPhone: attractive software features, but a closed, fully tested system that has a limited bandwidth consumption. If you think opening up the platform is just a matter of Apple changing its mind, you're very naive. Whether they can do that in a year or two or not at all is already part of Apple's long-term agreement with AT&T. Who do you think would end up paying the cost to change that agreement? Apple? AT&T? or iPhone customers?

The same applies to the suppositions that a 3G iPhone will be available in a few months. Can you imagine what happens to AT&T's HSDPA network if several million users have large screen video iPods that stream media off the network? I read some UK research the other day that said that no more than six viewers per cell can watch video at one time from the average 3G network today. They estimated that if 40% of users on a typical 3G system watched six minutes of video a day, they would saturate the entire network.

It's not some accidental oversight that the iPhone is closed to 3rd party apps, has a 2.5G radio, and won't let you download media over the wireless radio. Nor I think will these limitations be just a quick fix by Apple--especially if the iPhone has broad adoption. I predict that AT&T's first over-the-air iPhone upgrade will be a feature that uploads cash straight out of the iPhone user's wallet and deposits it in AT&T's capital investment account.

I'm truly not interested in anyone's "conjecture" at this point

Oh. Well, get back to work and stop reading PIC, then! :-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
twrock @ 7/9/2007 11:18:22 AM #
I believe it's going to opened up eventually, because it just makes so much sense for Apple to do so.

I'm not at all convinced that because it "makes sense" to many of the types who post on forums like these that "Steve" is going to open it up. Of course those of us who have spent a few years tricking out our PDA's/smartphones are going to think it makes sense for the iPhone to be opened up, but we are a self-selecting group and that's what we want to have happen. I'll believe it when Steve specifically says it is going to happen. Until then, it's still all just wishful thinking. (And I hope it does happen; I wouldn't mind another good option.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
twrock @ 7/9/2007 11:37:20 AM #
Oh. Well, get back to work and stop reading PIC, then! :-)

Work? What side of the globe do you think I live on? I should be asleep and you should get back to work.

BTW, are you going to pick up the Neo 1973 developers kit? I'm still quite curious about it even though I personally couldn't work with a screen that small.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
cervezas @ 7/9/2007 11:57:16 AM #
BTW, are you going to pick up the Neo 1973 developers kit?

Probably not. It's intriguing, but with ALP, Foleo, and a new Treo OS in the pipeline I'm having to pick my battles. I've got some big plans for paired Foleo/Treo apps, in particular.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
freakout @ 7/9/2007 7:37:06 PM #
I figure it makes sense for Apple 'cause they have all the right pieces in place: a powerful OS, a (nearly) turnkey platform for the delivery + syncing of mobile apps and a loving developer community.

I think, as David does, that there are very good reasons for the current iteration of the iPhone being closed to third parties. I'd add another one too: AT&T are probably terrified of someone turning it into an excellent wifi VoIP device. But if the future of computing is mobile, then eventually they'll have to open it up in order to keep up with the Joneses. (IMHO)

RE: Biggest with for iPhone: app crashes phone still works
hkklife @ 7/9/2007 7:53:08 PM #
Palm could really take a *bit* of the wind out of Apple/AT&T's sails had they released a tweaked version of the TX in a super-duper sleek & thin package (reminiscent of the classic Palm V/m505 design) or even resurrect the Handspring Visor Edge or TH-55 designs. Pack in 4gb of onboard flash and support for 4/8gb SDHC cards (fullsize, please) and add an internal microphone and a rock-solid VOIP client and a jazzed-up Garnet launcher screen for good measure. Target it as the no-contract, removable memory-capable, video-playing, do-anything iPhone alternative. Priced at $250-$300 with aggressive promotions (free BT headset or wireless keyboard SDHC card w/ purchase from palm.com) and marketing it could still be a small-scale hit with hardly any R&D or support costs.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant

mikecane @ 7/5/2007 10:05:03 AM #
Jesus Christ. I never thought I'd see the P in PIC stand for Psychosis...

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
PacManFoo @ 7/5/2007 3:21:07 PM #
Not to mention the credibility this site has now lost by having an article written by someone who's lips are attached to Ed Colligans backside. How I miss the good old days of PDABuzz, where is Wes when we need him.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
Ryan @ 7/5/2007 3:46:08 PM #
Not sure if you noticed but this is an editorial -- an opinion piece, not a detailed feature for feature hands on review.

We rarely ever run editorials here at PIC, mostly because I find the ones on other sites so trite and uninteresting. However, I find the current hype and lovefest over the iphone to be absolutely absurd, so it's good to have someone outside of the reality distortion field provide a different and fresh perspective.


And Mike I take offense to your comment, that's a pretty harsh and unfair claim considering some of your past articles and opinion pieces published on this site.

Pac- Wes has been working for Microsoft's mobile division for some time know and afaik he is still there.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
cervezas @ 7/5/2007 4:33:18 PM #
Not sure if you noticed but this is an editorial -- an opinion piece, not a detailed feature for feature hands on review.

Thanks for reminding us, Ryan. Not that it would make a difference to someone who thinks no comment questioning someones "credibility" is complete without 5th-grade playground smack about lips and backsides.

You can disagree with Tim's final conclusion that the iPhone/Treo contest is a pretty close call, but his analysis isn't exactly out of the mainstream opinion among smartphone users that have tried one: the iPhone has great browsing, a superior media experience, gorgeous hardware, improved synchronization, and a better camera than the Treo; The Treo is better in terms of accomplishing things quickly and with minimum fuss (including placing calls), has better tactile feedback, offers a vast array of software options, and works better with corporate email. Which factors you care most about is a personal thing--and that's where the editorial part comes in.

And agree or not, you gotta hand it to him: Tim's done a great job responding to his critics with facts, logic, and (failing all else) good humor.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
Gekko @ 7/5/2007 4:37:54 PM #

ryan - it was a good piece and created lots of interesting and entertaining discussion here. kudos to freakout too. thanks again for all of your hard work and efforts on this site. some of us may not appreciate it until it's gone.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
mikecane @ 7/5/2007 5:06:39 PM #
>>>However, I find the current hype and lovefest over the iphone to be absolutely absurd, so it's good to have someone outside of the reality distortion field provide a different and fresh perspective.

Have you tried you? Are you mad, that the SSS Treo can compete against it? I repeat: Are you mad?!

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
mikecane @ 7/5/2007 5:07:37 PM #
Goddam typos.

Have you tried IT, the iPhone?

Keep waving that Palm flag. But the ship has been torpedoed and is now sinking.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
mikecane @ 7/5/2007 5:12:29 PM #
Opinion piece? WHERE is the word opinion?

Here's the headline:

>>>Palm Treo vs the iPhone: 10 Rounds

That screams COMPARISON REVIEW by default, Ryan.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
freakout @ 7/5/2007 5:27:15 PM #
Not to mention the credibility this site has now lost by having an article written by someone who's lips are attached to Ed Colligans backside.

(rolls eyes) Y'know, recognizing that the Treo is a superior smartphone has nothing to do with my opinion of Palm's business decisions...

And Mike, it doesn't stand for "Psychosis". It stands for "Pooch". PIC will soon become the new homepage for dog-lovers, featuring tips on grooming, diet and exercise. I'm especially excited about the new "PoochoShop" segment, where people will post pictures of famous celebrities altered to look like dogs. Unfortunately that technology has encountered some serious stability issues in the testing phase, so until it's up-and-running we'll just be posting pictures of funny-shaped stools.

Thanks for the kind words, everyone else. :)

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
Poopie @ 7/5/2007 5:45:56 PM #
"PoochoShop" segment, where people will post pictures of famous celebrities altered to look like dogs.

Great! Everyone fire up Safari on your iPhone and point it here: http://www.freakingnews.com/Dog-Pictures--207-0.asp

Not really a photoshop, but sticking with the new theme...
http://www.flyaboveall.com/dogs.htm

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
sgiga @ 7/5/2007 6:11:14 PM #
To be honest, this site has revived my T3 during the last weeks. With the Hi Speed Phone link program purchased on this site I can surf the web with close to 3g speed on that device (at least I think I do, but the setups are uneditable and hidden, so I don't actually *know* the speed). I also reinstalled WebPro. All in all it works very good.

My T3 is 3 years old for god's sake. Try to find a new device today with equal sized screen surfing the web with 3g speed outside of WiFi range. There is only a small handfull of them except Nokia E90 and HTC P3600 who both have HSDPA (3.6 Mbit/s). This is something the holy JesusPhone simply cannot do, it crawls along with decade old technology. I also use my T3 for TomTom, try that on an iPhone.

The iPhone is so limited in it's usefulness as a phone or PDA-phone or smartphone it is almost absurd. It is absurd because the it is hyped as the next generation *phone*. There is nothing next generation about the phone capabilities, it is not even current generation. It is a multimedia gadget plain and simple, maybe the first generation of its kind.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
Valhala @ 7/5/2007 6:20:00 PM #
Your T3 still works? Mine is like an 2 decade old jalopy. The screen refuses to work with slider, graffitti no longer works, sometimes it behaves as if battery is dead, yet after 5 seconds on a charger it show 3/4 charge. I could go on And on. I,m angry at palm for sitting on it's laurels, not invotating, glad to make an easy busk as long as there were no other comparable products, and to be honest, I am jumping ship as soon as I can unless, Palm comes out with something as breathtaking as the iPhone,.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
sgiga @ 7/5/2007 8:37:22 PM #
Oh yes it works. But its only a couple of weeks until the SE P1 ships, and i'm getting that one. My T3 will retire as a GPS device in my car as long as it last.

Dispite everything written and said, I also want a Foleo, if it ever gets out and is sold here on the other side of the Atlantic ocean, and works together with my P1 (not very likely by the looks of it, but you never know). It wouldn't surprice me if Nokia comes out with something similar either, only much "flashier".

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
Valhala @ 7/5/2007 9:34:12 PM #
I've used mine "T3" with a magellen GPS and to be honest, I would rather just have a AAA triptic. It takes about 10 tries to synch with gps Satellites and software is not very good, I've used Delorme and 3 others and they are more hassle then it is worth. I would take Iphone with Google maps over a T3 with GPS anyday.

RE: And suddenly, PIC becomes irrelevant
sgiga @ 7/6/2007 11:47:18 AM #
> I would take Iphone with Google maps over a T3 with GPS anyday

Are you completely nuts? TomTom + T3 is exactly like any other TomTom running on any other PDA/Smartphone or on TomTom hardware; The best car navigation system available on the planet right now.

To navigate you have to know where you are all the time, that is the whole point of using a GPS. Google maps and iPhone have no clue to where you are, and cannot possible be used to navigate.

How can you review a device without having used it?

LupinTheThird @ 7/6/2007 7:40:20 AM #
freakout...you can't review a device with the kind of detail you tried to capture, without having actually used the device. I guess this should be obvious, but apparently it needs to be said.

Therefore this is quite a bizarre and misleading comparison piece, especially since you never say right up front that you have never actually used an iPhone, which is a pretty important piece of information!

(For example, I would never read an in-depth point-by-point comparison of the experience of driving two different cars, if it was written by someone who has never driven one of the cars!)

Silliness.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 9:33:56 AM #
Like I said one thread up:

"iPhone has received massive coverage from nearly every media outlet there is. Already there have been detailed reviews, video tours, and lot of (mostly very happy) new users are reporting in, and a lot of commentary from other people who, shock horror, don't own one. Since it's often touted as a Treo-killer, it makes sense to take what information is out there and see how it matches up with what the Treo has. This is a Palm-dedicated site, after all."

What's more, it's not actually a review, it's a comparison piece. If I got any of the details about iPhone's operation wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. But I'm pretty sure I didn't. Before I write anything for this site I try to write at least a page of notes of my major points and cross-check them all, and I couldn't find anything that contradicted how I described the iPhone's interface.

Haven't you ever heard of window shopping, Lupin? For a 600 dollar purchase you'd want to do a little research first, right? That's all I did: dug up every scrap I could find about the iPhone and summarised it all, and concluded it's not perfect.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
mikecane @ 7/6/2007 10:53:15 AM #
>>>That's all I did: dug up every scrap I could find about the iPhone and summarised it all, and concluded it's not perfect.

Yeah, without actually having *experienced* one.

Next!

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 12:11:38 PM #
You don't own a Foleo, yet you've been bagging it ad nauseum since it was announced.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/6/2007 12:17:46 PM #
Did he author an "article" about the Foleo comapring it to, say, an Asus EEE?

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 12:40:28 PM #
Explain to me the difference. The thrust of this argument seems to be that unless you actually own a device, you're not allowed to criticise it! That unless you've "experienced" it, then you can't possibly be right about anything? Even when it's all public knowledge, documented out there for anyone to see? What a load of crap. If I'm wrong, show me where.
RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/6/2007 12:45:49 PM #
I do not own a TREO.

I do not own a LifeDrive.

I do not own a Fooleo.

I do not own an iPhone.

I have NO PROBLEM commenting on each and every one of those.

I do not write comparison articles about them, however.

Do you now see the difference?

[BTW - I haven't read your article, either, but don't mind commenting about IT (well, sorta - actually don't care). And also haven't checked to see if appropriate disclaimers have been added after-the-fact to make clear that it is (1) opinion and (2) based off of no more than what I base my own comments on]

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 12:49:38 PM #
Are you a dumbass or what? This is my job. Ryan pays me to write stuff for PIC. That is why I write "articles".
RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 1:00:51 PM #
I was going to leave it at just that, but I just can't. The only difference between my piece and your comments is the length and detail of it. If you actually bothered to read it, which you didn't, you would see that it is obviously an opinion piece, and that all of my criticisms have a factual basis.

What's more, I clearly state at the beginning that this is about the fact the iPhones are now in people's hands and we now have something other than Apple's own previews to base our opinions on. I go on to say:

Now that we have fresh, unbiased opinions coming in, it's time to see whether or not the Treo still passes muster.

Isn't that a big freaking neon sign that the article will be based on those opinions?

Apologies for the flame.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
mikecane @ 7/6/2007 1:11:21 PM #
Ryan PAYS you for this utter BS?

>>>You don't own a Foleo, yet you've been bagging it ad nauseum since it was announced.

That's right -- because I've USED an effing similar Linux device: the 770. Have YOU? And I've used its browser, Opera. And I know from that experience that the Foleo is going to be a Flopeo. That, plus UMPCs such as the raon Digital Everun are just going to crush the Flopeo. Single-window browsing? In the 21st Century? Get real.

When the hell did PIC start employing retards? Is this an ADA thing?

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
PacManFoo @ 7/6/2007 4:43:00 PM #
You got paid for this!! Bahahahahahah!!! From now on you shall be known as Easy Money.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
cervezas @ 7/6/2007 7:28:30 PM #
I've USED an effing similar Linux device

Sorry, Mike, but saying "I've used a Linux device therefore I know the Foleo sucks" is a helluva lot more stupid than anything you're accusing Tim of. Linux can run fast on hardware with such limited resources that Windows Mobile can't even boot on it or can be larded up with stuff that makes it bog down a Pentium 4. A mobile Linux OS can be designed to encourage quick-and-dirty ports of desktop Linux apps like Nokia's Maemo platform, or it can be designed to sacrifice some portability so as to enforce good mobile programming standards and the quality of the user experience. "Linux" really has nothing at all to do with your complaints about the Nokia Internet Tablet. All those issues have to do with decisions that Nokia made about the middleware that runs on top of Linux. They took the easy way out in a number of areas and that's why it's more of a geek toy than a consumer Internet appliance for your grandmother to use.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
Ryan @ 7/6/2007 7:41:51 PM #
Couldn't have said it better David.

The Nokia 770 is a completely different class and type of device. Anyway the N800 is a pleasure to use for the most part. Furthermore, I don't understand how do you come anywhere near making a comparison with a 3 year old underpowered tablet with a micro laptop you haven't even used or know what the final specs or software will be. Anyway Mike, please tell me what the first word in the title of the article is again.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/6/2007 8:05:11 PM #
> ...Anyway Mike, please tell me what the first word in the
> title of the article is again.

I'm not Mike but the first word of the article is "Palm".

== "Palm Treo vs the iPhone: 10 Rounds"

directly copy-n-pasted from the PIC home page at the time of this post.

Only if I actually go INTO the article by clicking on that home page title does the first word change.

Giggle.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 8:52:42 PM #
^^ Oh. My. God. That means the people who actually bother to read it might get the right idea!!!! SHOCK HORROR!!!

Enough. This is getting pathetic. Either dispute the views put forth in the piece or don't, Mike. I have the feeling that you can't, and all this bitching comes out of the fact that I've dared to make the claim that dearly beloved Apple haven't created perfection itself in phone form.

As for you, Pac, you've got such a ridiculously over-the-top case of sour grapes at Palm for not making a money-losing PDA to your exact specifications they're practically haemerroids. Let fly with the personal insults all you like; it just shows up your hopeless inability to mount any kind of logical argument.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
sgiga @ 7/6/2007 9:37:16 PM #
The 770 and N800 are more or less testbeds for Nokia's development of a opensource mobile Linux while at the same time the concept is being developed along with the developer base itself. Technically it has been a huge success as far as I know, even though the formfactor and functionality of the device is probably not what most people want, (at least they don't know that they want it yet, rather opposite of the iPhone where people don't know that they don't want it, he he).

If you are one of 500 "chosen" developers, you can get an N800 for 99€. The next iteration of the hardware will probably come already in first half of 2008.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
PacManFoo @ 7/6/2007 9:45:58 PM #
You are actually right about my Sour Grapes for Palm and I apologize for poking fun at you. As for your article, you have to admit that you are biased toward the Treo because it's the device you like. As everyone in PDA land has always said, the best device is the one that works best for what you want it to do. You want to be able to copy and paste where someone else may like watching youtube videos on the iPhone. I haven't used the iPhone either so I can't really comment on what you have said about the iPhone.

Yes I do still want a PDA and I'm actually hoping that Apple comes out with a phone-less version of the iPhone since Palm has abandoned me. The TX is perfect for my needs if only some of it's issues would be fixed. Since it doesn't appear that Palm is interested in this anymore I now have to sit and wait for someone to come out with a device that suits my humble needs.

Again, my apologies to you and David for my behavior. I will try to tone down my sarcasm to an acceptable level.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 10:15:12 PM #
Yes I do still want a PDA and I'm actually hoping that Apple comes out with a phone-less version of the iPhone since Palm has abandoned me.

iPod 6? I'd actually consider one of those myself. It would be a very handy household internet tablet, especially with home wifi. Just drop the price a little please...


Timmmmmmmmmmmmay needs a HUG!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/7/2007 12:56:55 AM #
Are you a dumbass or what? This is my job. Ryan pays me to write stuff for PIC. That is why I write "articles".


Sounds like Timmmmmmmmmmmmmay needs a hug! Poor little fella. Come to TVoR, Timmmmmmmmmmmmmay!


I assumed you were being blatantly sarcastic about Ryan paying you. Since neither you nor he clarified + said you were joking, add me to the list of The Shocked. And TVoR is now going on strike for retroactive pay of "a lot more than what Timmmmmmmmmmmmay is getting".

In any event, the content of the "article" is almost irrelevant. What matters is that it has produced over 200 comments - many of which are thought-provoking and/or amusing - and the subsequent discussion has livened up a site that appears to be suffering from the ennui induced by next to NOTHING interesting occurring in the PalmOS device world.

Palm will know the game is really OVER when the comments at Palminfocenter dry up due to complete lack of interest in Palm's products. Sadly, that day seems to be soon-approaching...

TVoR

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/7/2007 1:44:40 AM #
It's no secret, Voice: Ryan pays me a few bucks an article, which works nicely for me because I enjoy writing them. Let's put it this way: in order to buy an iPhone I'd have to write at least 50 of the pieces I turned in here. I do it for love more than anything else.

I should clarify: it's not my main job, it's a side operation. I have a "real" job too. And I got offered the position after I handed in my PocketTunes 4 review and the first iPhone piece I did; Ryan liked them enough to ask if I'd like to help out with the site more often. It works out nicely for me too, 'cause one of these days I'd love to have a real-life journalism job and being published anywhere is a nice little bonus to put on that CV should I see an opportunity I'd like to go for.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

And I'll hug. But no groping.
freakout @ 7/7/2007 2:03:14 AM #
:P
RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
PalmerDeville @ 7/7/2007 2:17:55 AM #
The iPhone virtual keyboard is better than any keyboard I've used. I've avoided virtual keyboards like I avoided potholes in Iraq. (Yes I was there.) Try the keyboard. Seriously. This is not something you can trust a review about, especially when many reviews are praising it. Remember: type without backspacing and know that pressing space accepts what the iPhone thinks you meant to type. The best I can say is just let the words flow and ignore what you're seeing. Once you get used to the virtual keys, you won't even be hitting the wrong keys. I can type full emails with ZERO mistakes - fast. If you haven't used THIS virtual keyboard, you can't review the iPhone. Not to mention when I go to type a URL the space key disappears and a /, ., and ".com" take their place. These little tweaks are what make the keyboard so impressive. Not to mention the logic used to correct and predict typing. And one handed iPhone use, no problem.

Seriously, you're misjudging so many aspects of the iPhone. Pull this article until you've spent some time with one.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/7/2007 3:30:37 AM #
Nearly all reviews praised the keyboard, but most that I read said that it wasn't quite up the standard of a real one. But there's another limitation of the virtual keyboard that has nothing to do with its ease-of-use: there's still the fact that it isn't always available. The Treo's keyboard, for instance, is put to great use in the Phone Favorites for one-button shortcuts to contacts, applications, weblinks etc. In the app launcher, you can type a few letters to quickly jump to the one you're after. Music app mOcean has a fantastic find-as-you-type feature for navigating your media library; it's the fastest way to jump around the hundreds or thousands of tracks you find in today's typical media library.

Basically, even if the iPhone one in ease-of-use, the Treo has 26 shortcut keys that are always available and usually easy to use one-handed. Which cuts back to the main thrust of my argument: by necessity a purely virtual, touchscreen-based interface is limited in how quickly and efficently you can access your information, whereas a Treo has three different ways to input commands: touchscreen, d-pad and buttons. It's just a more productive combination to my mind.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/7/2007 3:31:04 AM #
Nearly all reviews praised the keyboard, but most that I read said that it wasn't quite up the standard of a real one. But there's another limitation of the virtual keyboard that has nothing to do with its ease-of-use: there's still the fact that it isn't always available. The Treo's keyboard, for instance, is put to great use in the Phone Favorites for one-button shortcuts to contacts, applications, weblinks etc. In the app launcher, you can type a few letters to quickly jump to the one you're after. Music app mOcean has a fantastic find-as-you-type feature for navigating your media library; it's the fastest way to jump around the hundreds or thousands of tracks you find in today's typical media library.

Basically, even if the iPhone keyboard won in ease-of-use, the Treo has 26 shortcut keys that are always available and usually easy to use one-handed. Which cuts back to the main thrust of my argument: by necessity a purely virtual, touchscreen-based interface is limited in how quickly and efficently you can access your information, whereas a Treo has three different ways to input commands: touchscreen, d-pad and buttons. It's just a more productive combination to my mind.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 3:52:31 AM #
Yes, you have 26 UNLABLED shortcut keys. Identicaly sized, and positioned in relationships that bear no resemblece ot the task at hand, and cannt be resized when you only need a subset of keys (like dialing a number).

The iPhone however can offer many more than 26 shortcut keys, should it choose to give up the screen real-estate - and the iPhone has the choice to do so, a choice you cannot make with a Treo or any device that has physical keys. And the iPhone has the option of altering the size of those shortcut keys depending on how useful or likley to be used a shortcut is.

Once you get past the mental block you have that keys must depress in order to be useful, you can see many reasons why virtual keyboards are far more flexible and useful, if well laid out.


RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
sgiga @ 7/7/2007 4:34:08 AM #
> I can type full emails with ZERO mistakes - fast.

Of course, but that is 95% due to predictive realtime correction, something mobile phones have had for a decade now. This is the reason SMS has become so popular (in Europe). With predictive realtime correction and a little practice, you can type faster on a numpad, than you do on a QWERT phone (Treo) with no correction, when using only words in the dictionary.

What you have to compare is an iPhone and a phone *with* buttons that *have* predictive correction, for instance SE M600 or P1. Those phones have buttons and grafiti and virtual keyboard. Grafiti with realtime predictive correction is actually incredible fast, since the main reason grafiti is slow is due to errors and mistakes while writing. I haven't tried the iPhone yet, he he, but I doubt that it will be faster or a better experience to write emails on that compared to a P1.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/7/2007 6:34:31 AM #
sgiga makes a good point.

You're not listening, kgelner. The Treo has a touchscreen as well, with button layouts that change depending on the app: i.e. the 'new', 'respond' and 'delete' shortcuts in the Messaging app, or the different tabs in the 680 phone app. But it has the physical buttons in addition to the touchscreen, all the time. So you can choose what works for you. On the iPhone, you get what you're given and there's no consideration of the fact that different people like to do things different ways. It's one-size-fits-all, which is fine if you like the way Apple does things, as you seem to do. Too bad if you 'think different'...

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
LupinTheThird @ 7/7/2007 12:02:07 PM #
freakout, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN USED AN IPHONE

How in the world do you have any business talking about the keyboard?? You've never typed on int!

Seriously, it is absolutely ridiculous for you to be talking about reviewing and comparing the iPhone to the Treo without having used the iPhone.

The thing about the internet is, there is no requirements for journalistic standards, so any old Joe can start writing on a website. This is what we are now witnessing.

To Mike, or whoever the editor of this site is, how can you publish an in-depth 10 point comparison when the writer hasn't used one of the devices?!? We're not talking about just initial impressions, we're talking about a deep comparison, including reviewing the keyboard, which definitely requires usage in order to judge.

Come on, this is getting ridiculous

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
LupinTheThird @ 7/7/2007 12:09:14 PM #

You're not listening, kgelner. The Treo has a touchscreen as well, with button layouts that change depending on the app: i.e. the 'new', 'respond' and 'delete' shortcuts in the Messaging app, or the different tabs in the 680 phone app. But it has the physical buttons in addition to the touchscreen, all the time. So you can choose what works for you. On the iPhone, you get what you're given and there's no consideration of the fact that different people like to do things different ways. It's one-size-fits-all, which is fine if you like the way Apple does things, as you seem to do. Too bad if you 'think different'...

This point is just plain wrong. Apple gives applications the whole screen to use, instead of locking you in with a hardware keyboard that's there all the time taking up precious screen real estate, even when it's not needed. Getting rid of the keyboard while not typing was an ingenius innovation! Smartphone users only spend a certain percentage of their time typing, so Apple has unlocked the rest of the limited virtual space for those times when typing is not applicable.

This gives applications more screen real estate to display data. Also, since the keyboard is software, the layout of the keys can be changed depending on the application, which gives even more flexibility for text input.

Yeah, now who's thinking different...

These backwards arguments, arguing in favor of non-innovation, sound like they're straight from the mouth of ol' Eddy himself!

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
mikecane @ 7/7/2007 2:22:13 PM #
Beers addressed me? BEERS? The Man With Zero Credibility?

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/7/2007 2:46:01 PM #
> ...The thing about the internet is, there is no requirements for
> journalistic standards...

Yes, that is true. However, the "regular" media is lacking as well for any number of reasons. It's just part of the game nowadays.

== "Be Careful Out There - the Me-Too Media OFTEN gets it wrong!"

is the background drone at all times.

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
freakout @ 7/8/2007 4:21:40 AM #
This point is just plain wrong. Apple gives applications the whole screen to use, instead of locking you in with a hardware keyboard that's there all the time taking up precious screen real estate, even when it's not needed. Getting rid of the keyboard while not typing was an ingenius innovation! Smartphone users only spend a certain percentage of their time typing, so Apple has unlocked the rest of the limited virtual space for those times when typing is not applicable.

Yes, it was ingenius innovation for web browsing, media etc which just work so much better with a large screen. Which is why I rate the iPhone higher in those categories. But as far as getting around your device goes, it's better to have three different input methods than one. It's faster, it's more efficient.

Imagine, for a moment, that you only had your mouse to input commands to your PC. Imagine that there's the best virtual keyboard ever designed on that PC, that predicts and corrects yada yada, that's easily manipulated by the mouse, so that typing by mouse becomes easy and intuitive. Even though this virtual keyboard is easy to use, it suddenly means that you don't have quick access to, say, CTRL-ALT-DEL, or ALT-TAB.

Smart Treo app designers integrate keyboard shortcuts into their app to help save time navigating around. Let's use Pocket Tunes 4 as our example: E for Equaliser, O for Open, H for Shuffle, L for Playlist, Z for Stop, F for Crossfading, R for Preferences, I for Song Info, K for Bookmarks, S for the Skin Menu... it goes on and on. In the Phone app, you can assign keyboard letters to your Favorites. Yes, Apple has a Favorites menu too, but it's only accessible by the touchscreen and you have to open it up first. On the Treo, just hold down that key for half a second and away you go.

On an iPhone, you gain the advantages of a large screen, and the disadvantages of restricting yourself to one input method. Which one you prefer, of course, is your own personal opinion, but it would be silly for you to deny that having so many different shortcut keys always available is a useful thing to have.

And with that, I'm DONE with this thread. It's consuming too much of time and my life. But it was a blast...

Actually, one last thing...
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:19:58 AM #
Beers addressed me? BEERS? The Man With Zero Credibility?

Well lookie there: Mike Cane completely sidestepping the argument again, because he knows how pathetically he'll lose! What a surprise...

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 10:09:30 AM #
No, Beers, not side-stepping it at all. It's just you're so damned psychotic when it comes to avoiding the REALITY of the 770 that it's no use addressing you at all.

Dismissed!

RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
twrock @ 7/9/2007 11:41:29 AM #
(Pssst, Mike, check the poster's name.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: How can you review a device without having used it?
cervezas @ 7/9/2007 12:59:44 PM #
Mike (this is Beers): I've never owned a Nokia 770, touched one, or said *anything* about it being a great device--that's your own vivid imagination. I have been a satisfied N800 user for the last several months and enjoyed what I gather to be the substantial hardware and software improvements over the 770. I don't really know why you consider yourself an expert on the N800, which you've never used, nor why I'm "psychotic" because you refuse to upgrade from a 1.0 device to something that works well. But I know this: you have no business ragging on anyone for passing summary judgment on a product they've never laid hands on.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

iphone for me

tttexxan @ 7/6/2007 1:36:09 PM #
I have owned a Treo in the past and now a Iphone. I do have to say the Iphone has been a much stabler platform than the Treo..I was performing a soft reset daily just to have the treo work properly. I guess thats considering the Treo did not hard reset itself or soft reset itself.

The iphone really does everything its claimed to do well..The phone, ipod, internet, widgets, google and over all screen is hands down better than palm...However, the Treo excels when downloading applications. The Treo can download many 3rd party apps but they come at a price.

Many people talk about the cost of the Treo vs Iphone but lets take a look at that....

Treo runs about 300 or more....You get limited amount of memory thus needing a memory card (SD)
To get up to 8 gigs like the iphone that is going to cost ya...Want more apps that is going to cost as well...Data plans are more too...

All and all iphone better for me

Which is more expensive - Free treo or iPhone?

Poopie @ 7/6/2007 1:41:02 PM #
http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2007/07/which-is-more-e.html

So the difference between a free Treo 680 and a $500/$600 iPhone over the course of 24 months is a grand total of $40... or $1.67/month or less than $0.40/week.

Hah!

RE: Which is more expensive - Free treo or iPhone?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/6/2007 1:49:56 PM #
Wow.

PALM is ****ed.

[pardon the vernacular]

RE: Which is more expensive - Free treo or iPhone?
mikecane @ 7/6/2007 2:51:10 PM #
What, you couldn't do the math yourself?

Jaysus.

iPhone Is Not Expen$ive
http://tinyurl.com/yuko3s

As for all the eejits carping about no 3rd-party iPhone apps, dry up and die when they start to FLOOD the market before March of next year. You are all so used to the half-assed, brain-dead, mentally-retarded, shuck-and-jive abuse of PALM that when a company comes along to TAKE THE TIME TO DO THINGS RIGHT, you don't know what to make of it or how to react.

Get some help.

RE: Which is more expensive - Free treo or iPhone?
freakout @ 7/6/2007 8:58:07 PM #
The point is that to get an iPhone you must pony up at least 500 bucks outright, and to get a Treo you'll pay 400 max for an unlocked one you can use on any worldwide network you like.

Yes, after two years, the costs might even out, but that's no good to the people buying one today, is it?

RE: Which is more expensive - Free treo or iPhone?
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 3:48:11 AM #
Doesn't that cost savings get eaten up quickly by the need for more storage? After all, even the $500 iPhone comes with 4GB.

RE: Which is more expensive - Free treo or iPhone?
freakout @ 7/7/2007 5:42:37 AM #
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211148

8GB SD: $65.99. Pretty damn cheap nowadays...

early beta prototype of the iPhone

Valhala @ 7/6/2007 4:15:48 PM #
The LifeDrive was like a early beta prototype of the iPhone, but instead of developing the concept further they put that inbred pig of device for sale to suckers like me. Well as the President said fool me once shame on you, fool me twice well your not gonna fool me again.
To examine this mentality, Palm put applications on the hard drive! this pig was slower then a Palm Pilot 5000! The hardware and software was glitchy and cause frequent Continous loop resets. And if they inovated and thought outside the box they could have made a slick GUI like the iPhone.
The lifedrive was so bad Palm discontinued it and surely burned a lot of users from ever buying palm again.
So as a previous poster stated, not only is the iPhone a Palm killer but so is Palm for selling very expensive defective unusable mobile devices.

RE: early beta prototype of the iPhone
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 3:46:42 AM #
Exactly! I never bought a LifeDrive, but was excited at the direction... but then that trail was derailed, never to be seen again. As I said in a longer comment below here, the iPhone is the device I expected from Palm about two years ago!

They had such a great UI lead for small devices, however could they have let it fade away...


The Treo is NOT cheaper

luomat @ 7/7/2007 1:30:15 AM #

The iPhone is a bigger initial outlay of money than the Treo 680 (assuming you get it for free after rebates)

HOWEVER when you factor in the cost of the monthly rate plan, the Treo 680 and the iPhone (4gb or 8gb) are within FORTY DOLLARS of the Treo.

See

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2007/07/which-is-more-e.html

for more details. But please, if you value honesty at all, please stop saying that the Treo is cheaper.

It isn't.


RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
freakout @ 7/7/2007 1:46:45 AM #
The point is that to get an iPhone you must pony up at least 500 bucks outright, and to get a Treo you'll pay 400 max for an unlocked one you can use on any worldwide network you like.

Yes, after two years, the costs might even out, but that's no good to the people buying one today, is it?

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
PalmerDeville @ 7/7/2007 2:49:21 AM #
Just think of it like you're putting that $100 in the bank. Now you will receive a monthly disbursement over the life of your contract.

In many cases, that $100 will be an investment when you end up with more cash in the end.

plans aren't comparable
tompi @ 7/7/2007 3:02:02 AM #
The $60/month is a smartphone-only plan at EDGE speed.

The $80/month plan you get with the Treo is an unlimited 3G data plan that you can also use with your laptop.

The closest offering to the iPhone on the market is the Sidekick, which has similar functionality and usability that's at least as good. The unlimited data plan for the Sidekick is $30/month, and that includes the equivalent of .Mac. I'd take a Sidekick over an iPhone any day: it's an excellent phone with a real keyboard and an excellent service plan.

No matter which way you look at it, the iPhone service plans are overpriced, too.

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
freakout @ 7/7/2007 3:39:34 AM #
^^ Good points, tompi.

PalmerDeville:
Just think of it like you're putting that $100 in the bank. Now you will receive a monthly disbursement over the life of your contract.

In many cases, that $100 will be an investment when you end up with more cash in the end.

As Poopie helpfully quoted in another thread:

So the difference between a free Treo 680 and a $500/$600 iPhone over the course of 24 months is a grand total of $40... or $1.67/month or less than $0.40/week.

Great disbursement! And iPhone is still more expensive...

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
kgelner @ 7/7/2007 3:44:23 AM #
That $60/month plan inclues WiFi use as well, which is much faster than 3G. During the average day I'm around WiFi more often than not.


RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
luomat @ 7/8/2007 5:47:28 PM #

> freakout @ 7/7/2007 1:46:45 AM #
>
> The point is that to get an iPhone you must pony up at least 500 bucks outright, and to get a Treo you'll pay 400 max for an unlocked one you can use on any worldwide network you like.
>

You're changing the argument. The article said:

"$600 with contract is a lot to ask for a phone. Especially a first-generation product. To put it bluntly, it's exorbitant. You can get a Treo 680 for free nowadays on a contract, and with that you could get an 8GB SD card, a sweet pair of wireless headphones, all the best third-party Palm OS apps and still not pay as much as you would for an iPhone."

Which is complete and utter bull.


> Yes, after two years, the costs might even out,

Not "might" -- will. I've shown that the free Treo 680 is MORE expensive than the 4gb iPhone and only $40 less than the 8gb. PLUS with the $80/month you are going to be paying higher taxes. Even the 8gb is likely to be less expensive than a free Treo 680.

> but that's no good to the people buying one today, is it?

It depends. Are they unable to do math? Are they easily duped into thinking that the TOC is inconsequential?


> As Poopie helpfully quoted in another thread:
>
> So the difference between a free Treo 680 and a $500/$600 iPhone over the course of 24 months is a grand total of $40... or $1.67/month or less than $0.40/week.
>
> Great disbursement! And iPhone is still more expensive...

Get your facts right. The 8GB is $40 more expensive. The 4GB is cheaper.

And the 3G vs EDGE was nor part of the original argument either. The argument was that the iPhone is "exorbitant".

That's false. And the facts should matter.

If you want to argue that you're getting more for your money with the Treo, that's fine, but you can't say that $40 more than the Treo is exorbitant.

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
freakout @ 7/8/2007 6:51:11 PM #
No, but I can say that $40 more after two years is. Total cost of ownership is the same kind of smoke-and-mirrors rubbish that MS tries to use to scare companies away from Linux. Many people may be able to afford a more expensive plan, because it's billed per month and you don't notice the hit to your wallet quite as badly.

The difference between an 80-dollar-a-month plan and a 60-dollar-a-month plan is a helluva lot more palatable than a 500-dollar-phone versus a zero-dollar phone. Or even a 200 phone, which is the average Treo price nowadays.

It depends. Are they unable to do math? Are they easily duped into thinking that the TOC is inconsequential?

No, they just may not want to spend 500 bucks in one hit and then have to pay for a contract with what is apparently one of America's worst cell providers. See, the point is that it's a huge outlay *in addition to* a contract. Whereas for a measly 400 bucks you could get an unlocked Treo, that you don't have to sign up to anything for.

Sorry mate, but you're not going to convince me that iPhone's minimum $500+contract price is not exorbitant.

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 10:11:44 AM #
>>>Whereas for a measly 400 bucks you could get an unlocked Treo, that you don't have to sign up to anything for.

And all the crashes you can eat. And all the eyestrain you never knew you could get.

You are such an absolute idiot. Ryan must being doing hiring based on ADA factors. You are clearly deranged.

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
freakout @ 7/9/2007 5:26:31 PM #
I'm just following your example Mike. You are a paradigm of logic! A role model for anyone looking to comment on today's Internet. I just want to be more like you.
RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
luomat @ 7/22/2007 2:01:57 AM #
>> It depends. Are they unable to do math?
>> Are they easily duped into thinking that the TOC is inconsequential?
>
> See, the point is that it's a huge outlay *in addition to* a contract. Whereas
> for a measly 400 bucks you could get an unlocked Treo, that you don't have
> to sign up to anything for.

The sign of a truly great argument is that when it gets challenged, you drop it and start saying something else.

You originally argued that the free Treo 680 with all of these extras was a lot less than the iPhone.

Now you're saying that for $400 (measly?) you can get an unlocked Treo.

And what exactly would you do with it without a voice/data plan? Tip calculator?

"Hey! I got a great price on this car. Sure I can't drive it anywhere because it only gets 8 miles to the gallon and I can't afford the insurance, but WOW what a great price!"


> Sorry mate, but you're not going to convince me that iPhone's
> minimum $500+contract price is not exorbitant.

If for no other reason than you've firmly decided that you're right.

Your complete inability to defend your original point should be answer enough for reasonable people. Whether or not I convinced you, well, really not the point.

I bet you cleaned up on the traffic you got from this post though.


RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
luomat @ 7/22/2007 2:06:01 AM #
TCO in the case of computer operating systems may be smoke and mirrors.

TCO in the case of a Smartphone when you're comparing clearly defined non-variables such as voice and data plans, are simple facts. You can either choose to accept them or not. You can choose to ignore them or not.

But they're not some kind of card trick.

The smoke and mirrors is trying to compare the Day 0 costs of two devices WHICH BOTH REQUIRE a contract (your original argument for a "free" Treo 680) but ignoring the costs of that contract.



RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
freakout @ 7/22/2007 5:47:52 AM #
The sign of a truly great argument is that when it gets challenged, you drop it and start saying something else.

You originally argued that the free Treo 680 with all of these extras was a lot less than the iPhone.

It is. Buy an iPhone, walk away at least $500 poorer and with a contract to a (apparently) horrible cell provider. Get a Treo 680 for free, walk away with the same amount of money you had before and a slightly more expensive contract with same provider.

And what exactly would you do with it without a voice/data plan? Tip calculator?

Let's see. mp3 player, movie player, e-book reader, document editor, games machine, insert anything here... a Treo isn't just a great phone, it's also a more-than-decent mobile computer.

If for no other reason than you've firmly decided that you're right.

'Cause based on all the evidence at hand, I am. :P

Your complete inability to defend your original point...

Look at that, I just did!

I bet you cleaned up on the traffic you got from this post though.

We did! Thanks for the congrats. :)

P.S. A saving of $40 after two years is practically worthless. A saving of 500 bucks in one day, though...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Addendum
freakout @ 7/22/2007 5:55:47 AM #
That PIC edit function is coming one day, I'm sure...

I needed to clarify a little. You said:

You originally argued that the free Treo 680 with all of these extras was a lot less than the iPhone. [emphasis mine]

Actually, what I wrote was:

You can get a Treo 680 for free nowadays on a contract, and with that you could get an 8GB SD card, a sweet pair of wireless headphones, all the best third-party Palm OS apps and still not pay as much as you would for an iPhone.

Which is not saying "a lot less". Just cheaper. Fractionally, yes. But still cheaper. If you take away all those extras, then the saving becomes much clearer and even more attractive.

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
abosco @ 7/22/2007 11:17:32 AM #
But... umm... you're going to need a contract to use either phone.

And you conveniently left that out of your article, favoring day 0 costs over anything else, therefore labeling the iPhone much more expensive. That's misleading. Basically, you're stooping to the level of used car salesmen on TV yelling at the viewers with promises of, "ZERO DOWN!!!" and a giant monthly lease in the fine print. Technically, in your eyes, those zero down deals are all offering cheaper cars.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Rinse, lather, repeat.
freakout @ 7/22/2007 5:11:33 PM #
Quoting yourself is such fun:

A saving of $40 after two years is practically worthless. A saving of 500 bucks in one day, though...

Yep, that's an opinion. But then, this is an editorial.

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
ChiA @ 7/22/2007 7:08:47 PM #
Rhetorical Question - how much for wi-fi on the Treo 680 or indeed any Treo, it is a after all a feature on the iPhone?

How come that cost hasn't been factored into the equation?

I'm currently shopping for a new smartphone. I wish Palm offered a Palm OS phone with wi-fi. I was tempted by the UK offer of free TomTom GPS with Treo 680 but the lack of both wi-fi AND 3G puts it out of my running.

My shortlist is down to either the Samsung SGH-i600 (the Blackjack with 3G AND wi-fi) or the Orange SPV e650 (their version of the HTC s710 with wi-fi). I dislike WinMob but these phones offer the features, styling and performance that I want as a customer. They can also run Styletap so all is not lost.

Both of these phones are free to most Orange UK contract customers. Orange doesn't bother offering ANY Treos to UK customers. I can even buy either of these phones contract free at the same or similar price as the inferior Treo 680. Incidentally I see someone who'd buy a £399 Treo 750 over a £285 Samsung SGH-i600 as either too wealthy to care, not being right in the head or someone who values threaded SMS and the Palm logo at £114.

Palm is the only company that doesn't have a smartphone with wi-fi now that RIM is offering a Blackberry with wi-fi.

Yes we can debate all we want about Treo vs iPhone but it should be extremely troubling for the Palm management that Apple with their first attempt can come close to (and in many aspects surpass) what the Treos offer.

On reflection:
I'd never heard of a Samsung phone in 2002 but had seen the early Treos.
I laughed at Samsung's first offerings in 2003/4 and was keen to get a Treo.
Now I'm impressed by Samsung's Blackjack in 2007 and dismayed by the current Treos.

It's so desparately sad that Palm threw its advantage away and now what does it have left to offer?

RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
freakout @ 7/22/2007 11:29:06 PM #
Touchscreens.
RE: The Treo is NOT cheaper
ChiA @ 7/23/2007 3:33:25 AM #
Touchscreens

When the Treo 600 was introduced I remember how much emphasis Palm, Handspring and even Hawkins himself placed on how it easy it was to operate without using the touchscreen at all.

Thus even Palm has demonstrated that having no touchscreen doesn't impact on how useable the smartphone can be. I've found that's the case with Nokia's n95. I've enjoyed using this phone and only wish Palm could have come up with something similar (in a sense they have, the Treo 680 has similar battery life despite offering a fraction of what the n95 does). However, a Treo offering no wi-fi nor high speed data has a huge impact on those trying to use it for web browsing or email. As a data device Palm should have got its priorities right - I would have happily traded the touchscreen for a European Palm OS Treo with wi-fi and/or 3G.

I appreciate the Windows Mobile Treos were "buying time" for Palm to sort itself out but frankly they're not competitive with other WinMob devices - see list of some UK choices below:

But if you really need a touchscreen:

with keyboard:
- E-TEN glofish M700 - Wi-fi & GPS: £295
- Sony Ericsson P1i - Wi-fi & 3G £395
- Sony Ericsson P990 - Wif-fi & 3G: £200
- Sony Ericsson m600i - 3G: £240

Without keyboard:
- HTC Touch - Wi-fi: £290

And in comparison:
Palm Treo 750 - 3G but no wi-fi: £400 ($800!!!)
The Treo 680 doesn't bother to come with 3G or wi-fi so isn't invited to the party.

However it's ironic how the iPhone and HTC Touch are providing novel approaches to how the phone user interacts with the software via a touchscreen.

Palm International: highway robbery
freakout @ 7/23/2007 3:48:54 AM #
All those other devices have their own compromises, though. Most aren't as pocketable as the Treo (and considering that the Treo ain't no fashion model, that's saying something). The Pl1 doesn't have a "real" QWERTY keyboard, but a sort of in-between kludge.

Don't get me wrong - Palm has left wi-fi out for far too long and failed to keep up with the Joneses. But any kind of smartphone, be it Palm, Apple or HTC, has its own unique compromises. The Treo's is a relatively cramped keyboard and lack of wi-fi. Sales would seem to indicate that wi-fi is not a must-have for your average user. (Yet.)

And yes, their international prices are criminal. After paying a ridiculously high price for my Treo 650, and with the Aussie dollar trading at nearly 90 US cents these days, I don't think I'm ever going to buy a local device from Palm again. It's just insane. Do they think we can't look around for ourselves and see how much they're ripping us off by?

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

yes, but...

tompi @ 7/7/2007 2:45:53 AM #
I agree with the comparison: I think as a real-world device, the Treo still has a slight edge over the iPhone. But, frankly, I want neither.

I just switched my Treo out for a Symbian phone, mostly because the Treo was would crash or lock up at inconvenient times, because syncing it with my Mac was iffy, and because its Bluetooth implementation wasn't up to snuff. The Treo was also rather bulky. The Symbian phone has 3G, a full Bluetooth stack, a multitasking OS, SyncML, and it's much more stable. It's also smaller and lighter than the Treo and has a better camera. And there is lots of third party software for it as well.

If Palm came out with a Linux-based Treo that's half the thickness of the 650/755, is stable, and uses SyncML, I'd switch back in a heartbeat.

As for Apple, sorry, the iPhone is an overpriced fashion statement as far as I'm concerned.

Long time Palm lurker...

kgelner @ 7/7/2007 3:42:31 AM #
I used to have a Palm V, I absolutley loved it. But, eventually it died... and I wanted to combine a phone and PDA.

So, I waited.

Then eventually came the treo. But what happened to my beloved Palm? Why was there this annoying keyboard?

So, I waited.

And Palm started offering Windows Mobile, and did very little through iterations of the Treo - each one I tried, hoping it would be The One.

So, I waited.

But then... came the iPhone. A phone with a virtual keyboard and great screen and responsive UI and instant access to applications - just like my old Palm.

So, I stopped waiting.

The iPhone is what palm SHOULD HAVE built about two years ago, by my reckoning. And they could have, if the people that built the original Palm had been around and as focused.

So like many others, I find the review to be really odd, and at odds with my experiences with Treos and the iPhone. Point by point:

Phone: The iPhone is far superior as a phone, hands down. Easy conference calls? Hell Yes. Great sound quality? Yes. Quicker access to contacts? Indeed, because while you're typing out those few contact letters, I have already flicked or jumped to my contact and dialed them (especially if they are on my favorites shortlist). Does it take two presses to reach the Phone aspect? Yes, but because the virtual phone button is essentially in the same place every time, it's like a single button in that I don't even have to look to reach Phone. That is where you lost track, by never using the device you are unable to understand what aspects are intuitive enough that they essentially vanish, just as the buttons on the original Palm did. But because the iPhone works through the home button, it's like having many more dedicated buttons for functions than Palm ever had. Furthermore, the treo I found physically uncomfortable to use as a phone where the iPhone is easy to use against the face and you don't have to worry about hiitting buttons. And speaking of buttons, if you are using the keypad the virtual keyboard advantage start to become apparent with the HUGE keypad keys, making it easier to dial a non-contact number than any cell phone I have ever seen. The Treo, simply put, cannot win this one in any respect once you have used both.

Messaging: MMS is incredibly lame, from a time long ago when few phones supported email. And if you have friends on other providers, then you probably can't even send them an MMS anyway! Email wins because it's standard and everyone has an email address. Think of it this way - if everyone has an iPhone, than MMS is needless because anyone can get email on the go, right?

This would also be a good time to talk about the keyboard. Simply put, you have no idea how usable it really is - there have been many reviews saying how after some practice you can type on it fairly well. Frankly I find two thumb typing on it to be much faster (as it is with any device) and after a while of practice you can develop a very good accuracy rate. The reason is, that if you think about it the speed of your typing is not because you have real keys, but instead because after some time your fingers know where the keys are and go there! Just pay attention to yourself typing on a keyboard or thumboard sometime, and pay attention to how often your hand simply jumps to a physical location on the keyboard. That's part of why the keyboard works - the other part is because unlike many other touchscreen keyboards, you get very good confirmation of what you are hitting (helping you to train quicker the physical memory of your fingers) and the response is instant, without delay. Delay is what kills a virtual keyboard, but without it the thing works and works better than a real keyboard, which I'll expand on in a moment.

EMail I don't really have an opinion on other than I use the iPhone email and it works well enough for me.

Web - I agree, but here you miss a few key aspects of the device that render many others more useful - the high-DPI screen, and the ability to rotate the UI. Safari does render pages just as you would see them, but with the high DPI screen the thing you get that you don't expect is how little you actualy have to zoom in to read text, and even operate links. The rotation that the web browser and other applications support is great for things that are on the long side, and makes the app even more useful.

To get back to the keyboard, you see here another advantage of the virtual keyboard - when typing in a URL, you'll never need the space key, right? That's why instead you get a "/" and ".com" button to help you more quickly type in URLs.

Camera: Also not much of an opinion, I dislike all cellphone cameras and the iPhone is no exception. For some things it's handy, I guess. But in other respects it is not for some buildings do not let you enter with a cameraphone.

Media: The iPhone is of course, as they say, "The best iPod Apple has ever built".

Usability: Here again, you just do not understand how good the UI is. Having to switch back to home to end call? Simple to do without looking, because again that big ol' "End Call" button is right at the bottom of the screen after pressing home. Also, the home button wakes the phone just as well as the top button. In practice it's not cumbersome to wake at all, and again what seem to be extra taps are in fact "Usability Neutral" because they simply are done and not noticed.

You also don't understand the features in place to help alleviate the need to cut & paste. I won't say I have not wanted it from time to time, but a lot of times you would have wanted to cut & paste the iPhone provides a way to get text where you wanted it (like automatically visitning URLs or phone numbers in emails, or being able to mail a URL to someone).

Battery Life: You can absolutley get more than a day out of it for average use.

Price: Here in the US that "free" treo costs the same after you facter in the greater data plan costs of the Treo. And frankly, I would never buy any phone that didn't support WiFi again, it's much better than even 3G and there are a lot of WiFi hotspots around.

In short, I really just can't see any way to reach the conclusions you have after you actually use the device. I wanted desperatley to go with Palm but they never built a device that allowed me to do so.



Using the iPhone

john_h2007 @ 7/7/2007 10:31:53 AM #
Tim:

I had a Treo650 with Verizon then it was replaced with a 700p with Sprint. I picked up the iPhone this past week on AT&T.

I have a question for you: Have you ever used the iPhone?

FWIW, I find typing on the iPhone easier. Blame my fat fingers, but they slide too easily off the Treo's keys. And getting special characters (/, $, -. !, etc.) is a real chore.

Compared to the Treo on Sprint/Verizon, the call quality was better on iPhone. I could get Verizon in more places (better coverage), but the call quality/sound is superior on iPhone from my experience.

Stability? On my Treo700p, I have to tear-off the back cover and RESET the thing at least 3 times a week. It's usually the Blazer browser that hangs it up.

Your review is flawed on a couple points. First, you claim to only be comparing the phones based "on paper," but you're making some value judgments, too. I.e., the "soft" keyboard on iPhone vs. the tactile keyboard on Treo. Second, comparing things on paper is fruitless when we don't use these devices on paper. We hold them in our hands, we communicate with them, and we type on them. You should be up front with users who read your column. You haven't actually ever used an iPhone. But you routinely refer to your EXPERIENCE with the Treo(s) in your review.

It reminds me of a car purchase I made several years ago. I arrived at the dealership, having made up my mind based on what I read (on paper) about the models, and decided one particular model was for me. I drove it, it drove okay... and was prepared to buy it.

Then the dealer pulled up with another customer in their sedan model, with the leather seats, and the sunroof. "Want to take this for a test drive while I help this customer?" he asked. "Sure," I said, thinking it was a waste of my time...

I bought that car. On paper, it bored me.

On the road, it was something else.

I'm not here to argue that the iPhone is better, or the Treo is worse. But to compare the two in the way you have is cheating the reader. I'm in the position of having the Treo as my "work phone" and the iPhone as my personal phone. And if I had to choose for what I use the "smartphones" for... the iPhone wins, hands down.

The Treo feels old, clunky, and last decade. The iPhone - new, glossy... hip. Definitely built for different audiences. That part is right. But please... use the thing before you attempt to compare it.

RE: Using the iPhone
mikecane @ 7/10/2007 8:23:54 AM #
You notice he never replied to that post?

Because he can't!

The last point that REALLY matters

sgiga @ 7/7/2007 12:18:33 PM #
Scroll down to the lest question, the one and only that matters, then view the result (or vote and view) :-) Actually not bad, 1 of 4 :-)

It doesn't say anything about the Treo though.


RE: The last point that REALLY matters
sgiga @ 7/7/2007 12:19:25 PM #

Hatchet Job

sandrino @ 7/7/2007 1:27:30 PM #
I doubt you spent more than 5 minutes with an actual iPhone before writing this piece. This review sounds like it was based on watching some of the iPhone videos, not on actual personal use. I have used Treos and Blackberries and the iPhone is much easier to use than either. BTW, there is a feature called favorites. That feature allows you to easily and quickly select any phone number you call frequently. There is also a list of recent phone calls. I rarely have to search for a number for very long, and when I do search it is easy to find the number I seek quickly.

As far as the virtual keyboard goes, those tiny little keyboards on the Treo and Blackberries don't even have a hope against the iPhone's virtual keyboard. I have had no problems typing on it and it is much easier to use than the actual keyboards on those PDAs.

This is not an unbiased review, this is a hatchet job. You didn't start with a blank slate. You started with the premise that the iPhone wasn't as good. You are afraid that you will lose customers to the iPhone so you had to prove it is a crappy phone. It is so transparent it is sad.

Good luck finding a new job.

RE: Hatchet Job
freakout @ 7/8/2007 5:23:21 AM #
^^ it isn't a review, mate. It's an opinion piece based on other reviews of the iPhone, as stated in the introduction to the article. I wouldn't want to do a hatchet job on the iPhone; I actually think it's a highly impressive device. But simple logic and common sense will tell you that a touchscreen is not the perfect solution to every single thing you might want to do on a mobile device. You can get very close to the efficiency of a physical interface if you make the effort, as Apple have. But they won't top it.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: Hatchet Job
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 10:13:33 AM #
>>>^^ it isn't a review, mate. It's an opinion piece

Now I notice it's slugged EDITORIAL. Where's that word OPNION? Or, in this case, PSYCHOTIC DELUSION OF PALM FANBOY EEJIT?

RE: Hatchet Job
freakout @ 7/9/2007 5:27:41 PM #
Better than "Yet Another Post Complaining About Palm, Part 6,348,205."
RE: Hatchet Job
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 5:46:02 PM #
No, moron, I'm complaining about YOU.

Wishing for Palm to die the death it deserves is NOT a complaint, you retard.

Why don't you just stop replying to all posts. The more you type, the dumber you reveal yourself to be.

RE: Hatchet Job
freakout @ 7/9/2007 6:59:00 PM #
Come up with an actual argument yet Mike? What's that? No? Oh. Okay then.
RE: Hatchet Job
mikecane @ 7/10/2007 8:22:33 AM #
How pathetic you are!! Do you have ANY idea?

I think this trash should be called COMEDY, not EDITORIAL. You've provided loads of laughs for people here.

Palm's response?

ThePolack @ 7/7/2007 1:58:22 PM #
It's fairly obvious that the iPhone as it stands is incomplete. Don't get me wrong, I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford it (I just upgraded to Adobe CS3 so that's not happening), but the lack of copy/paste is wierd and the lack of MMS is wierder and the lack of ToDo functionality is just plain crazy (though I'm thankfully using the OmniFocus alpha so I can take my Todos with me on the iPhone easier than I could on my Palm T|E or anyone else's Treo). But it's important to remember that this is a 1.0 device.

This revolutionary, completely changes the rules device, is only a 1.0.

If you think Apple's stopping there, you're crazy. So what is Palm's response? Are they going to release another model of Treo that pales in comparison to iPhone 1.0 and explodes when brought within range of iPhone 2.0?

I used to really like Palm. I liked how they stuck to their guns on the simplicity of the interface rather than try to make a tiny desktop like Microsoft did. I liked how they focused on the important features instead of the fluff (like media used to be before we all started accepting it). I liked a lot of things about Palm, but what have they done lately?

The basic features suck because they haven't evolved in years. The address book is nowhere near flexible enough to actually hold all of my contact info (two addresses, one IM account, only four phone #s/email addresses per contact?). Some of my contacts are practically decapitated to fit in Palm's address book. The basic calendar sucks. Sync is worthless without third party software. The reason why Palm needs so many 3rd party apps is because the stuff it comes with is trash.

Is it time to start digging Palm's grave? Not quite yet. Is the writing on the wall? Oh yeah. This is the end unless Palm does something really impressive in the next year.

--------------------

In the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"

whyPhone is late to the party and missing a lot!

Guilden_NL @ 7/8/2007 1:05:24 AM #
As much as I want to see a strong replacement to the current set of Treos, it sure isn't the whyPhone. I have one due to my role as Chief Enterprise Architect of Telephony at a global IT services provider. I currently use a Treo 650 that's three years old and my wife uses a 680. I look forward to a Linux powered mobile!

Here's all the functionality that the whyPhone doesn't have that my Treos do:

Can’t swap out battery (Pay Apple $85+ to replace at 18 months or less)
Can’t add memory (<$50 for 8GB SD cards for my Treos, I have 4)
Can't text more than one person at a time (DUH!)
No instant messaging (Apple has a sad web based IM that really stinks)
No way to send pictures, videos, sounds via MMS
Can't edit or save Word, Excel, PowerPoint documents
No way to search phone book or song lists (DUH,no search?)
Camera can't record video
Can't play Web pages with Flash
No games!
No way to download contacts from old phones
Can't turn contact lists into e-mail distribution lists
No support for ***Secure*** Blackberry or GoodLink email
No VPN for ***secure*** communications
No apps for ***security*** (Butler allows me to remotely wipe all memory and lock it with an SMS should I lose my Treo. I use Yaps for 256bit encryption of sensitive data.)
Safari browser is non-standard and not supported by many sites. (I use Opera and it works perfectly.)
Access to a fast, 3G network


Open Source is the way to go. Steve Jobs is Satan!

RE: whyPhone is late to the party and missing a lot!
ChiA @ 7/8/2007 5:15:16 AM #
Guilden_NL said
No VPN for ***secure*** communications

page 99 of the iPhone user guide:

Configure VPN
Choose General > Network > VPN and tap Settings. Ask your network administrator which settings to use. In most cases, if you’ve set up VPN on your computer, you can use the same VPN settings for iPhone.

Turn VPN on or off
Once you’ve entered VPN settings, a VPN switch appears at the top level of the Settings list.
Tap Settings and turn VPN on or off.

Well, you say you have the device, is it you or the iPhone manual that is in error?

I saw an iPhone TV ad last night; is it for real?

SeldomVisitor @ 7/8/2007 7:35:48 AM #
I don't watch a whole lot of Boob Tube so had pretty much missed big-screen viewing of iPhone ads - of course, I watched the YouTube versions of quite a few but the dinky default "screen" pretty much kept me from actually paying more attention than warm-n-fuzzy-feelings style.

But last night was different (at around 1AM). I actually saw an iPhone ad on the Big Screen and paid it some attention. This particular ad is more or less limited to showing the reading of a web page - (newspaper-like). Here it is on YouTube:

-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22tTbHwwPEg

Anywho, if ya notice, this guy rotates his iPhone, gets a "photo" into view in the page, double taps it, and the image perfectly resizes to fit the screen. Then he rotates the iPhone again and the photo again resizes to perfectly fit the screen. Then he taps on an adjacent article and that article gets pulled over to get perfectly centered in the screen. Then he taps on another diagonally-adjacent article and THAT article gets pulled over to be perfectly centered in the screen.

So...is that for real? Does Safari have "the smarts" inside of it to know what is same-article text for generic web pages or was THAT particular NYT web page "special"?

Or was the guy holding the iPhone simply tapping on a screen to recenter the location where he tapped and was being REAL careful WHERE he tapped to get the right visual effect?

Inquiring minds wanna know!

RE: I saw an iPhone TV ad last night; is it for real?
abosco @ 7/8/2007 3:56:46 PM #
Yes, it works exactly like that. It is smart with tables and frames and makes an accurate guess as to what exactly you're trying to zoom into. When you rotate in portrait or landscape, it scales it again to re-fill the screen size. For example, you really can load a page in portrait, double tap a picture, and it'll fill the screen width. From here, you can turn it landscape, and it'll fill up the new width by further zooming, which happens immediately. If you double tap the picture again, you will go back to the previous zoom level, which is the whole page width.

Personally, I do not browse the NYT website. But I do a lot of forum browsing, and I can tell you that the iPhone works so well with vBulletin tables and formatting that it's not even funny.

I've mentioned this before, but I'm going to say it again. I was the Software Expert at PalmSource for Palm OS Browsers. I know a thing or two about Web Pro V, NetFront, Blazer, and PocketLink. Nothing comes close to Safari on the iPhone. If embedded Flash support for web pages is ever added, it will be 100% perfect, bar-none.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: I saw an iPhone TV ad last night; is it for real?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/8/2007 6:23:57 PM #
That's way cool - I would expect identical (non-rotation of course) behavior by Safari under Windows then.

I think I may just get that browser after learning a bit more about it (I pretty much use Firefox with forays into IE whenever some page breaks under Firefox - I have nothing against either browser but that little Safari demo in the iPhone ad caught my attention as one might guess!).

RE: I saw an iPhone TV ad last night; is it for real?
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 10:15:50 AM #
>>>That's way cool - I would expect identical (non-rotation of course) behavior by Safari under Windows then.

Uh.... say what? It doesn't act that way on a Mac.

Hello, desktop vs. handheld. Bueller? Bueller?

RE: I saw an iPhone TV ad last night; is it for real?
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 10:17:38 AM #
Oh, and the Columbo One More Thing:

You can also PINCH OUT to enlarge any part of a web page if Safari can't discover a region to discretely/distinctly enlarge.

Killer, huh?

Bye bye, Palm! Die the death you deserve!

BMW

sgiga @ 7/8/2007 2:19:50 PM #
I saw this in the forum
http://www.aboyandhiscomputer.com/show.php?ItemID=2204

It is so true, just look at this thread. Virtual keyboards for instance. Everybody *knows* that a virtual keyboard with no tactile feedback cannot, not now and not in the future, be as good as a keyboard made with buttons. Then, when Apple makes one it suddenly and "actually" becomes an "excellent piece of technology" comparable to real keyboards. Get real!

Also, extra meny clicking on the iPhone is so "intuitive" that they aren't noticed. This is just too funny.

Disclaimer: I'm no Treo fan and I have never owned a Treo, in fact I think the Treo is just as bad as the iPhone. Real phones are made by SE and Nokia - period. IMO the T3 was the last real Palm (for now), and I'm probably one of the very few people that think the Foleo is cool and has a great future.

RE: BMW
freakout @ 7/8/2007 9:32:08 PM #
^^ Lol. That's the funniest thing I've read all week.

The power to buy anything - and feel good about it.
Will it be merely an incremental improvement? Will we simply increase the storage capacity of an existing product and increase the price? Or will we remove features and capacity and reduce the price? It doesn't matter. We'll still trumpet it as a brand new product, and you'll buy it. You know you'll want it. And you know you'll pay big for it. Steve Jobs could take a dump, put it in an off-white plastic case, add two grey button and a small LCD display, and you'd pay $600 for it. Just f*cking admit it.

ROFL.


RE: BMW
Valhala @ 7/9/2007 4:30:03 AM #
Yeah that dude Steve Jobs truly is an alchemist, He sells 700,000 iPhones in 1 day, Apple predicts 10 million in a year and some say that is understimated. I think all the competitors underestimated Apple and are going to pay dearly for this.

You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone

metavurt @ 7/9/2007 9:53:43 AM #
So how can you honestly review it??

I had to read only thru part 2 of your first point to see you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

PHONE
The iPhone allows you to make favorites, there's also recents, so no, I don't have to "flip through pages and pages" of contacts to get to who I wish to call, AND, on top of that, you press the letter on the side of the screen and you're right at the first or last name of the that letter. Not. Real. Hard.

MMS
Messaging can be added via firmware/software update.

EMAIL
Email I understand, but I'm already getting my work email pushed through VPN, off a Microsoft-centric business account. So I really don't understand the limitations. I've my personal mail, my gmail, and business account coming thru just fine.

WEB
Yeah, there's no Flash, and I'm actually glad there's no Flash. There are still security issues with the plugin that I imagine Apple didn't want to deal with. Hell, I don't want to deal with it as a Flash programmer! Java... kinda miss.

CAMERA
I'm *sure* video will be added. It's a non-necessity. I didn't buy the iPhone to take crappy video. When I need video, I use good equipment, not a phone of any kind. In terms of photos, I grew up with an SLR and learned to take better photos withOUT a flash. So no flash on the iPhone is actually a lovely thing.

MEDIA
All my work involves coding. Which means I need my laptop. Which means I really don't *need* to add software to the iPhone. I got it for it's combination of iPod, browser/email, and phone. And visual voicemail. I HATE listening to voicemail and having to skip to where I need to be. One pet peeve completely taken care of by the iPhone.

USABILITY
This is where you obviously haven't used the iPhone. NO MATTER WHAT SCREEN YOU'RE ON - an alert comes up with either a voice call OR a text message. Even when the iPhone is "off" and locked. ONE TAP accepts or declines. If you're using the iPhone in music mode, double clicking the power button declines the call. Again, NOT cumbersome. And oh my god, did you even touch an iPhone yet? Do you even have a friend that has one?

I can also, WITH ONE HAND, use the iPhone quite well and that includes typing. Again, try using a product before posting a "comparison" article.

EXTRAS
Meh. I don't buy crap for extras. But there are already online shopping lists. And let's see, the iPhone's been on the market for a week, and you expect shelves full of 3rd party titles? Hell, many developers are just now getting their hands on one and able to test their software real-time.

HARDWARE
Um, I have to use my iPhone constantly for nearly a full work day (that's 8 hours, case you were wondering) before it warns me it's low on battery. That's using it a LOT - that's not leaving it on standby, sitting with the screen off. When I do that, I get from 2 - 3 full days use with out charging. Again, try using a product.

SYNCING
Actually, I don't like this one. iTunes is a great way to sync, but I'm going to clammer for more control over the syncing process.

PRICE
You can get a TREO free "with a contract", and that contract will cost you. And are you saying I could BUY ALL the best 3rd party software and it wouldn't cost as much as the iPhone? Highly doubt that, especially if you keep your math straight and include the full cost of the contract.

You REALLY REALLY, REALLY, should try actually f**king using a product before you spout off like this. Seriously. You get paid to do this kind of writing? It's taken me less than five minutes to show you the door on your "research". Some comparison.


Try a product before you review it...

RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
freakout @ 7/9/2007 10:23:19 AM #
The iPhone allows you to make favorites, there's also recents, so no, I don't have to "flip through pages and pages" of contacts to get to who I wish to call

That's great! So long as you only have 8 numbers you ever want to call, that is.

AND, on top of that, you press the letter on the side of the screen and you're right at the first or last name of the that letter. Not. Real. Hard.

No it's not. Who said it was? All I said was that a Treo was more quicker and more precise. Press phone. Type the first couple of letters of Contact, or hold down a key for speed dial.

MMS
Messaging can be added via firmware/software update.

Great! Where is it?

EMAIL
Email I understand, but I'm already getting my work email pushed through VPN, off a Microsoft-centric business account. So I really don't understand the limitations. I've my personal mail, my gmail, and business account coming thru just fine.

Follow the link in that section of the article; there's a huge variety of email systems out there.

CAMERA
I'm *sure* video will be added.

So am I. But it's not here yet, and Apple don't get extra points for things they may or may not do in the future.

In terms of photos, I grew up with an SLR and learned to take better photos withOUT a flash. So no flash on the iPhone is actually a lovely thing.
Mmmmm. Better photos without a flash in the dark? Only on the iPhone... in the hands of a blind fanboy...

MEDIA
All my work involves coding. Which means I need my laptop. Which means I really don't *need* to add software to the iPhone.

Good for you, but most people don't carry around a laptop with them. And whether or not you need to is beside the point; the question is whether or not that option is available.

I got it for it's combination of iPod, browser/email, and phone. And visual voicemail. I HATE listening to voicemail and having to skip to where I need to be. One pet peeve completely taken care of by the iPhone.

I'm glad you're happy.

USABILITY
This is where you obviously haven't used the iPhone. NO MATTER WHAT SCREEN YOU'RE ON - an alert comes up with either a voice call OR a text message. Even when the iPhone is "off" and locked. ONE TAP accepts or declines.

Don't believe I ever even mentioned that, let alone criticised it. But the same behaviour you describe also occurs on the treo, so it's not like iPhone is better in this regard.

If you're using the iPhone in music mode, double clicking the power button declines the call. Again, NOT cumbersome.

Another thing I never mentioned, but I would say that a one-click dedicated "hang up" key is better than a double-click. Small difference, but still better.

And oh my god, did you even touch an iPhone yet? Do you even have a friend that has one?

Nope. I'm not going to bother justifying this yet again; scroll up the page to find your answer.

I can also, WITH ONE HAND, use the iPhone quite well and that includes typing. Again, try using a product before posting a "comparison" article.

Mmmmm. Does it include those cute little squeezing gestures? Can you use it in one hand without looking at it? Be a bit hard without any tactile feedback.

EXTRAS
Meh. I don't buy crap for extras. But there are already online shopping lists. And let's see, the iPhone's been on the market for a week, and you expect shelves full of 3rd party titles? Hell, many developers are just now getting their hands on one and able to test their software real-time.

Lol. There isn't even an SDK out for the iPhone yet! Developers aren't testing bupkis on the iPhone. Hackers are cracking it, or in the various stages of attempting to. Yes, it may be opened up in the future, but again, why should Apple get extra points for something that may or may not do in the future?

HARDWARE
Um, I have to use my iPhone constantly for nearly a full work day (that's 8 hours, case you were wondering) before it warns me it's low on battery. That's using it a LOT - that's not leaving it on standby, sitting with the screen off. When I do that, I get from 2 - 3 full days use with out charging. Again, try using a product.

Your experience differs from that of nearly every single product review that's been done of the iPhone so far. Lucky you! And say, just out of curiosity, what are you going to do when that battery needs to be replaced? Just pop in a new one? Oh, wait...

PRICE
You can get a TREO free "with a contract", and that contract will cost you. And are you saying I could BUY ALL the best 3rd party software and it wouldn't cost as much as the iPhone? Highly doubt that, especially if you keep your math straight and include the full cost of the contract.

To quote myself in an earlier thread:
Total cost of ownership is the same kind of smoke-and-mirrors rubbish that MS tries to use to scare companies away from Linux. Many people may be able to afford a more expensive plan, because it's billed per month and you don't notice the hit to your wallet quite as badly.

The difference between an 80-dollar-a-month plan and a 60-dollar-a-month plan is a helluva lot more palatable than a 500-dollar-phone versus a zero-dollar phone. Or even a 200 phone, which is the average Treo price nowadays.

For about 200 bucks, you could get an excellent range of good Palm software. Add around another 70 for an 8GB memory card. So, free+270=cheaper than iPhone. Even if you didn't get the "free" (with rebates) Treo, you could still get one + extras for cheaper than an iPhone.

You REALLY REALLY, REALLY, should try actually f**king using a product before you spout off like this. Seriously. You get paid to do this kind of writing? It's taken me less than five minutes to show you the door on your "research". Some comparison.

LOL, ROFLMAO. You've shown me the door, have you? By arguing points that weren't even in the article, you mean? Get real. Thanks for coming.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
freakout @ 7/9/2007 10:24:55 AM #
Again, personal insults from Mike Cane. Again, no sign of any point whatsoever. And life goes on...
RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
kgelner @ 7/9/2007 11:23:16 AM #
I see you ignore my earlier comment also correcting many of your misunderstandings - so I'll help you out here again.

>>AND, on top of that, you press the letter on the side of the screen and you're
>>right at the first or last name of the that letter. Not. Real. Hard.

>No it's not. Who said it was? All I said was that a Treo was more quicker and more
>precise. Press phone. Type the first couple of letters of Contact, or hold down a
>key for speed dial.

That's a lot more button presses than hitting a letter to the side of the screen and then your contact. I thought you were admiant that buttons presses were the primary measure of usability?

So we have, for calling your most often called people the iPhone is superior (through either favorites or recents), and for calling people from the contact list, the iPhone is also better. None of those facts appear in your review.

MMS
>Great! Where is it?

It's called "email", here in 2007 we send pictures to each other via "email". If your phone can't support it, time to upgrade.

EMAIL
>Follow the link in that section of the article; there's a huge variety of email
>systems out there.

And all of them worse than the iPhone built in client.

USABILITY
>Another thing I never mentioned, but I would say that a one-click dedicated "hang >up" key is better than a double-click. Small difference, but still better.

It's always a single click. The top button always declines the call (with a single press), but while playing music (and doing other things) you also get a button on the screen to eitehr accept or decline as well.

Responses like this, are exactly why you shouldn't review or even talk about the iPhone without having used one are carefully examining features. Basically you come off with a lot of egg on your face.

>Nope. I'm not going to bother justifying this yet again; scroll up the page to find >your answer.

I see no problem with it, as long as you care to continue to be thought of as completely unreliable in reviewing devices. Personally if it were my site and I was writing in some kind of professional capacity, I would care a little more about my reputation.

>Mmmmm. Does it include those cute little squeezing gestures? Can you use it in one
>hand without looking at it? Be a bit hard without any tactile feedback.

Actually yes, you can (in a "pinch", ha ha) use it one handed even for the "squeezy gestures". And yes, you can also use it one handed since as I noted in my reply many buttons are spatially anchored. I can often type without looking, I can certainly reach the phone app without looking and even dial some favortires without looking quite easily.

You don't need physical keys, you just need to remember where buttons are. That is true of your Treo as well, you just don't remember that the only thing physical keys help with a little is in training to remember spatially where controls are located.

This lack of understanding how virtual keys can be just as memorable as physical keys, is really the reason why you come off so foolish in your review.

EXTRAS
>Lol. There isn't even an SDK out for the iPhone yet! Developers aren't testing
>bupkis on the iPhone. Hackers are cracking it, or in the various stages of
>attempting to. Yes, it may be opened up in the future, but again, why should Apple
>get extra points for something that may or may not do in the future?

They already have a iPhone specific web SDK. No it's no the same as "real" applications, but it does offer the ability to add some features you would traditionally add through dedicated Palm apps. And there is a need for documentation as there are some phone features you can trigger with a bit of careful markup.

HARDWARE
>Your experience differs from that of nearly every single product review that's been
>done of the iPhone so far. Lucky you! And say, just out of curiosity, what are you
>going to do when that battery needs to be replaced? Just pop in a new one? Oh,
>wait...

In three or four years when the battery might need to be replaced, I'll send it off for a few days while I use the rental iPhone.

Please point to ONE review that says in an average day of use it will not last eight hours. My lasts easily much longer than that, though I am not talking 24/7. All of the reviews I've seen have said battery life is pretty good. The only thing that really brings it below eight hours at all is constant video watching, but I can't do that at work and for plane flights I'll simply get one of the many iPod external battery packs - just as bulky to carry as a second battery, and when I get off the plane my phone will still be charged, also like a secondary battery.

PRICE
>To quote myself in an earlier thread:
>Total cost of ownership is the same kind of smoke-and-mirrors rubbish that MS tries
>to use to scare companies away from Linux. Many people may be able to afford a more
>expensive plan, because it's billed per month and you don't notice the hit to your
>wallet quite as badly.

In other words, you are OK paying more for a Treo. Good luck with that.

>For about 200 bucks, you could get an excellent range of good Palm software. Add
>around another 70 for an 8GB memory card. So, free+270=cheaper than iPhone. Even if
>you didn't get the "free" (with rebates) Treo, you could still get one + extras for
>cheaper than an iPhone.

So after you replace the shipping software with stuff that works, and buy enough storage that you start to get close to the iPhone capacity, even after that, you can't buy a new screen or more usable OS.

>LOL, ROFLMAO. You've shown me the door, have you? By arguing points that weren't
>even in the article, you mean? Get real. Thanks for coming.

It's sad to watch someone sink their own online rep this way. You're forever more going to be known as "that sad guy that did the Palm review of the iPhone".


RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
freakout @ 7/9/2007 5:18:40 PM #
Kgelner, I was going to a point-for-point comparison, but I'd be wasting my time. I got as far as your first point:

That's a lot more button presses than hitting a letter to the side of the screen and then your contact. I thought you were admiant that buttons presses were the primary measure of usability?

No, just one one of them. And guess what? You can just press one letter if you want to do it iPhone style! Amazing! But unlike the iPhone, you can take it further and tap out one or two extra letters to get an exact match and save page flicking.

So we have, for calling your most often called people the iPhone is superior (through either favorites or recents), and for calling people from the contact list, the iPhone is also better. None of those facts appear in your review.

Why would they? The Treo has Favorites, Recents and a better-implemented Contact search.

Please grow up. iPhone is not the best phone ever designed, and it takes only a cursory look to see it. And I am now DONE with this thread.

Oh wait, one last:
And all of them worse than the iPhone built in client. (regarding email)

You are such an obviously pathetic fanboy, it hurts to read. Go tell that to businesses running Goodlink, or Visto. Durrrrr.........

Actually yes, you can (in a "pinch", ha ha) use it one handed even for the "squeezy gestures".

Yes, in a pinch. It wasn't designed with that in mind, though. Get over it.

RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
mikecane @ 7/9/2007 5:43:31 PM #
Two messages up, The Worm Of PIC blathered:

>>>Again, personal insults from Mike Cane. Again, no sign of any point whatsoever. And life goes on...

Then in the prior message he vomits:

>>>You are such an obviously pathetic fanboy, it hurts to read.

Keep showing just how unqualified you are to even *gaze* on a keyboard. Unless, you know, you're busy doing something on your level of IQ, like a fekkin online game.

RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
freakout @ 7/9/2007 7:00:28 PM #
Lovely selective quoting, Mike. If you'd posted the follow-on sentence, you might even have been accurate!
RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
kgelner @ 7/9/2007 8:37:37 PM #
Kgelner, I was going to a point-for-point comparison, but I'd be wasting my time.

Just like you wasted all of our time with an incredibly ill-researched review?

No need to respond to my point-by-point explaining all the many, many ways you went wrong! No need at all, since you have no answer in response to the ways I point out where you are wrong.

>No, just one one of them. And guess what? You can just press one letter if you want to do it iPhone style! >Amazing! But unlike the iPhone, you can take it further and tap out one or two extra letters to get an exact >match and save page flicking.

But the flicking is faster that multiple letters. So the operation is still slower on the treo than the iPhone operation.

>Why would they? The Treo has Favorites, Recents and a better-implemented Contact search.

But all are easier to use on the iPhone, as I said. I know because I have used a Treo before (during the times I spent over the least few years evaluating friends to see if the latest model was worth purchasing for myself), and actually own an iPhone. All you can do is sit there making a bigger and bigger fool of yourself.

>Please grow up. iPhone is not the best phone ever designed, and it takes only a cursory look to see it. And I
>am now DONE with this thread.

We're not talking about it being the best phone ever, we're talking about the iPhone being better than the very ancient Treo, which by almost any measure it is. And you're just putting your hands over your ears going LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU because you have been so completey annhilated by people who have used the phone.

You are indeed done as you say, as few people on earth will believe anything you say after this debacle!

>You are such an obviously pathetic fanboy, it hurts to read. Go tell that to businesses running Goodlink, or
>Visto. Durrrrr.........

Yes, I have friends running Goodlink on Windows Mobile 6 devices. My statemnet stands, as poor as the iPhone Mail application is today.

>Yes, in a pinch. It wasn't designed with that in mind, though. Get over it.

Like you would know - but you implied it was not possible, which I actually owning and touching the device can clearly see is false - like so much else of what you have written. I don't have anything to get over, since again I am actually holding the device in my had and can make my own assessments as to what works and waht does not.

The iPhone has flaws to be sure. It's just that not having one, you failed to list any of them!

I am actually a bigger Palm fan than you will ever be. So your defense of the Treo in the face of the iPhone is even more pathetic - you are literally killing them with kindness by pretending everything is OK when it is not! Should Palm indeed just stay the course as they have been, as you would seem to argue, in the face of the iPhone?


RE: You obviously haven't seen or used the iPhone
freakout @ 7/9/2007 9:37:33 PM #
I am actually a bigger Palm fan than you will ever be.
Not interested in a "Who's the biggest fanboy?" contest, thanks.

So your defense of the Treo in the face of the iPhone is even more pathetic - you are literally killing them with kindness by pretending everything is OK when it is not! Should Palm indeed just stay the course as they have been, as you would seem to argue, in the face of the iPhone?

Take a look at that final score again, kgelner. iPhone 5, Treo 6. Which means that I think Apple very nearly have topped the Treo. With their first device, no less. They would have to change very little about the iPhone to have what I would consider to be a better device. That should worry Palm. The article wasn't about what Palm should be doing to improve the Treo; it was how, point-for-point, the various features of the phones compare. In summary.

My take: compromise! use both

vip_m @ 7/9/2007 3:02:52 PM #
I plan to get an iPhone for my Phone, pictures, video, web browsing, email, and Music/Audio-books needs, and use my old Palm Tungsten W (no SIM card needed since I won't be using its crappy telecommunications functions; it has a better keyboard than the Treos) for typing in my articles (Doc to Go), doing spreadsheets, and other Palm apps.

So I'll be using both devices since really, no one device can fulfill all our mobile requirements.

About 14-15 minutes in - 'It's like PalmOS 7!'

SeldomVisitor @ 7/9/2007 4:52:55 PM #

What REAL iPhone reviews look like

mikecane @ 7/9/2007 5:48:45 PM #
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple/no-bs-iphone-review-276116.php

http://terrywhite.com/techblog/?p=196

http://terrywhite.com/techblog/?p=205

Unlike the psycho public typing masturbations of someone whose handle is obviously an apt description of his mental map and cognitive deficiencies.

These people have USED a product they are reviewing.

RE: What REAL iPhone reviews look like
freakout @ 7/9/2007 6:57:45 PM #
Your "criticism" (read: 6-year-old tantrum) would hold more weight if this actually was a review. Get a dictionary.
RE: What REAL iPhone reviews look like
kgelner @ 7/9/2007 8:22:33 PM #
If it looks like a review, and smells like a review - it's a review enough in most people's eyes that you end up looking foolish for all the mistakes it has.


RE: What REAL iPhone reviews look like
freakout @ 7/9/2007 9:28:18 PM #
If it looks an Apple Cultist, and smells like an Apple Cultist, it's Apple Cultist enough in people's eyes that you look foolish for all the ranting you do. And I have yet to see you actually point out a mistake.

Do you really consider one or two paragraphs on ten major functions covering two devices to be an in-depth review? Get real.

i just fondled an iphone

Gekko @ 7/9/2007 8:58:16 PM #

1. the first thing that amazed me was how light, small, and thin this puppy is. the pictures on the internet do not do it justice. yet, the screen is incredibly large yet not too large.

2. the screen is so crisp and bright from ANY angle.

3. the OS is BLAZING fast. it blazes between apps and through data and pictures.

4. build quality is incredible.

5. my treo 700p looked like a big, fat, bloated pig next to it. and the 700p display and OS graphics looked like comparing a 1970's atari game vs. PS3 or Wii.

hawkins/colligan/dubinsky et al should be embarrased and ashamed of themselves. they've been SITTING ON THE BALL for years - and now the chickens have come home to roost.

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

"In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone." - Bill Gates

"Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose." - Bill Gates


RE: i just fondled an iphone
sgiga @ 7/9/2007 10:57:24 PM #
Why all this nonsense? I mean really! It is a competitive world, and in a competitive world you win some and you loose some, that's just the way it is.

My guess is that Palm has been in deep sh*t for a long time struggling with a next gen operating system that looked great on paper, but prooved to be a real pig. That and probably loosing some key personell in the process. With LinuxPalm running and with the Foleo out, Palm will come back.

The iPhone has a great and flashy UI, but that's it. This has been acieved by running on a monster of a CPU using 1G of RAM with a monster of an OS compared to all other phones on the planet. Nevertheless, 15 year ago my low end SGIs did just as flashy stuff with *much less* powerfull CPUs and less ram and more primitive OS, so I am not that impressed. The rest of the hardware (like for instance the not so unimportant GSM radio) is WAY behind other phones.

The iPhone has set a new standard, but it is not the UI, the UI is mostly old news in a different package. The new standard is a huge CPU with lots of RAM.

RE: i just fondled an iphone
mikecane @ 7/10/2007 8:20:06 AM #
>>>the UI is mostly old news in a different package

Are you nuts too?

So, Gekko, what does the iPhone need to get you to buy it?

RE: i just fondled an iphone
sgiga @ 7/10/2007 1:58:42 PM #
Touch screens have been here for ages. Fancy graphics have been here for ages. Fancy graphics + touch screen was invented in Minority report as far as i'm concerned. Seriously, it's nothing new and revolutionary, it is decades old technology. A holographic display, that wuld be revolutionary. However, i am not saying that the UI on the iPhone not cool.

I don't see me ever buying an iPhone. There are so many other things i would rather have. The OpenMoko for instance, or even a Foleo!!! Both actually at once.

Exeunt, stage left!

freakout @ 7/9/2007 10:09:03 PM #
Well, ladies and gents, at over 300 comments I'm calling it quits on this topic - it just takes too much time and effort to keep up with. But cheers to all for one of the most lively PIC threads in quite a long time. Except Mike Cane, who is not only flat-out rude but a complete bubblehead who contributed nothing at all to the discussion except puerile insults. Thanks for coming Mike!

See you in the monkeyhouse, folks.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
Gekko @ 7/9/2007 10:12:52 PM #

nice job.

Okay whingers, just so it's crystal-clear...
freakout @ 7/10/2007 1:54:18 AM #
...I've asked Ryan to add the following to the article after the introductory paragraph.

"Author's note: I do not own an iPhone. This is not a review. This is an editorial/opinion piece based on the dozens of iPhone reviews and hundreds of users comments that have appeared on the net since the device was announced. Every effort has been made to ensure accurate descriptions of iPhone's operation. If iPhone owners would like to point out any technical inaccuracies, feel free to post them in the Comments section below."

What's the bet this still doesn't make them happy?

Okay. Now I mean it - I'm done. And thanks, Gekko.

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
mikecane @ 7/10/2007 8:16:18 AM #
DO let the door hit your stupid ass on the way out. You useless, prattling, strutting, mewling, psychotic eejit. You make VoR look like The Voice of Reason.

And that's saying A LOT!

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
cervezas @ 7/10/2007 2:31:13 PM #
Oops. Looks like Mike is ready for the "time out" room again. Mainstreaming is just not working out the way we had hoped.

Tim, I think you've comported yourself quite well through 327 comments (and counting) on this article. Is that a new PIC record? Either way, you've done a great job sparking controversy and making a case that maybe, just maybe, the iPhone isn't every person's perfect replacement for a Treo. Congrats.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/10/2007 2:35:30 PM #
> ...making a case that maybe, just maybe, the iPhone
> isn't every person's perfect replacement for a Treo...

The purported need to make such a case speaks volumes iPhone/Treo-relatively speaking.

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
cervezas @ 7/10/2007 3:02:58 PM #
What's the matter, SV? The iPhone is doing great and you *still* can't cover that short on PALM? Shares are actually up? Ouch.

Not that we have many actual business-people on this board, but I thought this quote from BusinessWeek's article entitled "Not Everyone Wants an iPhone" was a fairly sober assessment based on a major factor that mainstream Treo users care about: email.

Gartner is advising clients—mostly big corporations—not to support the iPhone for now. "It's just not ready for prime time as a corporate e-mail device," Dulaney says. "The resistance by the IT departments of large companies to supporting the iPhone is going to be fairly widespread.".... The iPhone is designed to work with Exchange in cases where a system supports a message-retrieval method known as IMAP. The trouble is, most Exchange installations don't.

The articles concludes:

As high as the hurdles may be for corporate users, some of same features that make iPhone attractive to consumers will surely make it a hit among businesspeople. It's clearly going to attract attention for digital media enthusiasts, even many who already use an alternative smartphone.

The iPhone wouldn't be the first device to enter corporations through a back door. Originally released in 1996, the PalmPilot made a splash among busy executives with a tech bent and a busy schedule. PalmPilots began showing up on many corporate desks at the initiative of employees. Corporate IT managers only later began supporting them.

Yet as appealing as the iPhone will be to executives when they're outside the boardroom, don't expect it to replace the BlackBerry or Treo right away.

Those fanboys.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/10/2007 3:15:24 PM #
Pardon? Why in the WORLD do you think I have =any= position in PALM's stock?

Oh.

Because you believe unsupported crap!

Yes...I understand.

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/10/2007 3:18:18 PM #
And for the rest of your spew...:

> ...mostly big corporations...

Those are not PALM clients - from their own mouths. PALM's clients, unaddressed by the Gartner "analysis", are the "prosumers"...exactly why everyone and their neighbors thinks PALM's going to get hit devastatingly by the iPhone (among a cast of a thousand other "smart"phones).


RE: Exeunt, stage left!
Ryan @ 7/10/2007 3:54:26 PM #
Hey Mike, if you're going to lob around insults and personal attacks at will on this thread why don't you inform us how qualified of a 'judge' you are here?

Have you ever used a Treo? ...didn't think so.
And you own iPhone experience? ...what 5 minutes groping one in a apple store.

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
cervezas @ 7/10/2007 4:09:31 PM #
Why in the WORLD do you think I have =any= position in PALM's stock?

Since you've repeatedly said you've never had any interest in using Palm products, you post every minutia about Palm and the people who trade its shares on the Yahoo Finance board (the last 31 mins ago), and since I obviously have no knowledge of your portfolio, perhaps the question (it was a question) was intended for you to answer.

All your buds who hang out with you on Yahoo seem to think they know your position in PALM's stock:
http://tinyurl.com/2hpub5

But what would they know?

Giggle

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/10/2007 4:13:40 PM #
True, they do indeed think so (actually more like "he thinks so" but who's counting!?).

They also think my name is Ken.

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
cervezas @ 7/10/2007 4:33:49 PM #
PALM's clients, unaddressed by the Gartner "analysis", are the "prosumers"

Really? So what defines a prosumer? A heavy smartphone user who purchases their handsets from the web or a retail store rather than having it issued to them by their employer? I've got news for you: the vast majority of business users buy their handsets on "individual liable" not "corporate liable" plans, which means their phones are purchased off the web or at retail and reimbursed by their employer. Reimbursed, that is, if they are on the list of phones approved by the employer.

You should do a little research on this industry if you're thinking about, you know, risking real money on it. :-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
cervezas @ 7/10/2007 4:50:00 PM #
True, they do indeed think so.

They also think my name is Ken.

Interesting that this is your reply.

I might have expected something more along the lines of "For the record, I am not, nor have I ever held a short position in PALM while sprinkling my hourly negativity about the company across 6 different PALM financial and fan sites." Maybe not in exactly those words, but you know: a protest of your innocence.

Are you worried that such a protest would result in you being caught in a lie? Or just that the circumstantial evidence would make such a statement look even more obviously fishy to us here than the stuff you normally post?

You needn't worry about your reputation being damaged: the most embarrassing thing is that you seem to believe your posts have an effect on share prices! (Or so it looks from this side of the web page. But what do I know? I'm just a fanboy.)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/10/2007 5:01:08 PM #
Hmmm...you've been bit by something.


RE: Exeunt, stage left!
cervezas @ 7/10/2007 5:13:59 PM #
you've been bit by something

Of course! What else could you have answered?

Good luck with it, anyway. And "be careful out there!" ;-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Exeunt, stage left!
Gekko @ 7/10/2007 7:26:59 PM #

Apple may launch Nano-based iPhone

Gekko @ 7/9/2007 10:11:06 PM #

Apple may launch Nano-based iPhone
iPhone manufacturer could release a smaller, cheaper version of the touchscreen phone later this year, JP Morgan analyst says.
July 9 2007: 6:47 PM EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Apple Inc. plans to launch a cheaper version of the iPhone in the fourth quarter that could be based on the ultra-slim iPod Nano music player, according to a JP Morgan report.

Kevin Chang, a JP Morgan (Charts, Fortune 500) analyst based in Taiwan, cited people in the supply channel he did not name and an application with the U.S Patent and Trademark office for his report dated July 8.


Apple (Charts, Fortune 500) filed a patent application document dated July 5 that refers to a multifunctional handheld device with a circular touch pad control, similar to the Nano's scroll wheel.

Apple spokeswoman Natalie Kerris declined comment.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/09/technology/apple.reut/index.htm?postversion=2007070918

Link whoring

charlie_brown @ 7/10/2007 1:17:05 AM #
What a horrible piece of trash this is. You don't even /have/ or /used/ an iPhone and yet you write about it like you do? One has to dig through the comments to find this out and it's not clearly stated in the post? In everyone's eyes you'd got zero credibility. If you ever had /any/. Come on! Give us a break! To take your post seriously would mean I'd have to take seriously reviews of restaurants, movies and the like without the reviewers ever having been to the restaurant or movie in question.
RE: Link whoring
freakout @ 7/10/2007 1:43:05 AM #
It's not a review, and as stated in the very first two paragraphs of the article:

"the first iPhones have made their way into the hot, grubby hands of gadget geeks and Apple cultists. It's an important phase: how well is this svelte little beauty going to bear up under the hypercritical gaze of enthusiasts"

"Now that we have fresh, unbiased opinions coming in, it's time to see whether or not the Treo still passes muster. Let's take a walk down memory lane..."

That should be your first clue that it will be based on those opinions. Learn to read.

(And I said I was done with this thread. Just when you think you're out, they draaaaag you back in...)

RE: Link whoring is fun and easy
freakout @ 7/10/2007 2:11:38 AM #
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9491/#135035

Just to keep you happy. Oh, and:

To take your post seriously would mean I'd have to take seriously reviews of restaurants, movies and the like without the reviewers ever having been to the restaurant or movie in question.

Wrong. A restaurant is judged on the quality of its food and service; a movie is judged on many artistic factors that are highly subjective. A piece of technical hardware like a phone, however - especially one as heavily-documented as the iPhone - can be judged by software interface design, ergonomics and other factors that have a strong theoretical basis. It's entirely possible to apply logic and common sense to form an opinion of an interface you haven't used. You won't get the complete picture, buy you can form a pretty good one. And if you read the article, you'd see that my opinions aren't all that radical: iPhone is a great iPod and web browser, but no so great phone and messenger. Ooooo, controversial!

RE: Link whoring
mikecane @ 7/10/2007 8:18:42 AM #
>>>It's entirely possible to apply logic and common sense to form an opinion of an interface you haven't used.

Except when it's ME applying YOUR measure to the Flopeo.

God almighty, will you EVER understand the bottomless depths of your stupidity?!!?

I have NEVER in decades of being online seen anyone embarrass themselves as much as you have. Get offline and stay offline.

RE: Cane whoring
freakout @ 7/10/2007 9:22:45 AM #
Stop coming on to me, Mike. It's getting creepy.
RE: Link whoring
mikecane @ 7/10/2007 12:40:57 PM #
Ryan keeps censoring. I keep coming back.

This little asshat is NOT having the last word.

RE: Link whoring
charlie_brown @ 7/10/2007 7:47:38 PM #
"Wrong. A restaurant is judged on the quality of its food and service; a movie is judged on many artistic factors that are highly subjective. A piece of technical hardware like a phone, however - especially one as heavily-documented as the iPhone - can be judged by software interface design, ergonomics and other factors that have a strong theoretical basis. It's entirely possible to apply logic and common sense to form an opinion of an interface you haven't used. You won't get the complete picture, buy you can form a pretty good one. And if you read the article, you'd see that my opinions aren't all that radical: iPhone is a great iPod and web browser, but no so great phone and messenger. Ooooo, controversial!"

Software interface, ergonomics. .blah blah.. but you haven't used one! How can you not get that through your thick head? You can say all you want but then you may get one and go.. "oh god.. this is quite nice. wow, look at that" And it's something you'll not know until you use one. Of course once you do try one we know you would not say such things and any follow-up article will basically say, "yep, i was write when I wrote the other post and all my guesses were correct". Because you wouldn't have it in you to admit you were wrong. Apply common sense? To a restaurant? Oh yeah, I've never eaten there but by the photos and the TV ads I can imagine the food tasting so good. Give me a break! There is nothing controversial about what you said about the iPhone really, more so how lame it is to make such comments without using the device. See? We keep coming back to that. But you still don't get it, do you?

freakout's Guide To The Blindingly Obvious
freakout @ 7/12/2007 7:32:20 AM #
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, Charlie. (At least it seems that way from how hideously you managed to mis-read that last post.) Here's what I'm saying in the most basic layman's terms: sometimes, you can judge a book by its cover.

To help demonstrate this point, I've prepared a handy visual aid for you. I recommend you print and study it.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-6/1039114/gttbo.JPG

RE: whatever
vorlon @ 7/12/2007 9:43:21 AM #
What a horrible piece of trash this is. You don't even /have/ or /used/ an iPhone and yet you write about it like you do?

So 99,999 % of comments about the Foleo are trash (well, actually...)? The iPhone hype has made some people a little too fanatical: it's not superiour in EVERY way. You CAN write something without using the gadget; iPhone can't hang up from another app with one push of a button, send a MMS, etc. no matter how long you use it. Just like Foleo doesn't have a fingerprint scanner, Prius can't haul a horse, Ares I can't launch a module to the ISS...

Some people around here would like to know that unlike Treos, iPhone does have a 3,5 mm audio plug. Except you still have to buy an adapter if you want to use other headphones!

How much negative reaction Palm would get if the next Treo won't have a user swappable battery?

Summa summarum: good editorial.

But iPhone sould not even be compared to the Treo, since they're for totally different markets. iPhone might be better for many people, but not for a nurse or an architecht (3rd party software!). It's mostly Apple's fault because they compare the iPhone with a Treo instead of a Walkman or a Chocolate.


syncing treo calendar with iphone

mitzimom @ 7/10/2007 10:17:52 PM #
Is there a way to move my Treo 680 calendar to an iphone? It doesn't sync with Outlook......

Something I wish Tim had brutalized Apple AND Palm for...

hkklife @ 7/10/2007 11:10:56 PM #
...Lack of Vista compliance! The iPhone's a total dud under Vista 64-bit editions and is very hit'n miss under Vista 32! Palm is trying to claim that 2-3 year old versions of the aged Palm Desktop enjoy partial Vista compliance. The fact of the matter is that both companies are acting like Vista is some temporary thing that'll blow over in a few months and we'll all go back to XP sooner or later.

Like it or not, M$ rules the roost and Vista is here to stay. With the sooner-than-expected arrival of Vista SP1, more and more companies & home users are going to go with Vista. For ANY company to still be behind the curve when it comes to Vista support is a sure warning sign for consumers.

I enjoy watching the fallout from the paradigm shift every few years when Microsoft releases a new version of Windows. Every time around you have numerous companies (Apple, Roxio, Nvidia, Palm) who act like they had NO idea a new OS was forthcoming. It helps to sort out the bad apples from the lot and serves as a good reminder which companies still value their customers more than others.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

treo for me

libatbulag @ 7/11/2007 9:19:04 PM #
It is amazing to see such an avid and spirited discussion from an editorial on treo and iphone. To me though, the iphone concept of a primarily touch screen interface for a full featured phone / smartphone isn't that new. I am looking back to the days when the xda mini and xda2s were such a big hit back home. They are by no means as revolutionary as the iphone interface maybe but 2-3 years back they certainly were a big leap from hard keyed interface into an all screen touch interface. I have come to appreciate both sides of the story. I certainly do understand the merit of needing keys to input hard commands, but certainly the configurable ability of an on screen touch interface has its finer points of flexibility, ofcourse at the expense of tactile feedback. I believe in the next few years, there will be a gradual if not dramatic shift in the paradigm of input. I think people in general will come to a point where tactile absence may not be an issue. For now I still think it is. I believe this remains the best attribute of the palm treo over the Iphone. Things may change however, If apple comes up with firmware updates addressing some issues the iphone has like, security, email, copy paste editing, navigation, speed on the edge or maybe 3g, MMS, and opening to other developers ,seriously there is not much left for people to complain about...maybe price??? I guess you can't win them all. Surprisingly most of the gripe people have...I have after using the iphone is primarily the software limitations. As of now, I still prefer my treo 680 over the iphone. Simply because I still use my phone as a navigation and calendar device on top of its phone, sms, web functions. If the iphone can do navigation at least...I would ditch my palm treo.

Hello World - no small feat

SeldomVisitor @ 7/20/2007 8:29:58 AM #
Someone sufficiently figured out the iPhone that they were purportedly able to get an instance of the classic "Hello World" program to run as an application:

-- http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/19/iphone-says-hello-world-here-come-the-3rd-party-apps/

From what little I understand of the extreme lengths Apple went to prevent this, I believe this might not have been a trivial effort.

Well done!

Here come dem 3rd-party apps!

[Damn! Reminds me of those original "learning days" where reading and understanding raw machine code was the norm, not the exception! (used to be able to look at octal dumps of PDP11 and z80 code, minimally, and actually know what was going on...wonderful learning experience)]

RE: Hello World - no small feat
cervezas @ 7/20/2007 1:53:28 PM #
Apple can break any such 3rd party app with the flick of a ROM update, and history suggests they will if necessary. As someone who makes his living as a mobile developer I can tell you: when the company that provides your software platform is determined to keep your app off their phones and has the means to do so, it doesn't make for an enticing business model.

So, no. Don't expect Steve to let developers walk all over his phone or for attempts to circumvent him to get much past science experiment status.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Hello World - no small feat
SeldomVisitor @ 7/25/2007 3:04:21 PM #
RE: Hello World - no small feat, until Apple break it
freakout @ 7/25/2007 5:09:49 PM #
As David already noted: these are only going to last as long as takes Apple to release the next iPhone software update.

Support from an Apple fanboy

David Dennis @ 7/20/2007 11:35:51 AM #
I'm a major iPhone fanboy and yet I liked the article. A sizable bias showed, yes, but I thought you at least made an effort to be fair, and the comparison was quite interesting.

Your article completely ignores that there is an emotional aspect to using devices. The iPhone defeats all competitors in that aspect with crushing superiority. Yes, Palm does most of what iPhone does, but iPhone does it with a beauty and grace that's unprecedented in today's electronic landscape.

Thus, I notice emotional attachments people form with their iPhones. Blog entries have shown people returning the device because it had one or two minor problems that didn't suit their needs, but they felt bad about doing so. They will miss iPhone's charisma and personality. One of them returned the product and bought another one a few days after.

So if you want to fairly evaluate the iPhone, I think you have to take a visit to an Apple store and actually see it. Apple encourages you to play with the devices, in striking contrast to the reaction you'll get at an AT&T store if you want to try out a Treo.

I played around with a Treo a while back and thought the keyboard was way to small to type on easily. I had a T-Mobile Sidekick before and I thought its keyboard was much easier to type on than the Treo. The iPhone has a similar sized on-screen keyboard but I felt that the additional keyboard features such as being able to correct your keystrokes if they were wrong without lifting your finger would easily make up for the lack of tactile feedback. I was surprised at how quickly I wound up typing on the iPhone keyboard despite the lack of tactile feedback - I thought it was at least as fast as I had typed on the Sidekick.

During a trip I took to the Philippines, I had a chance to get to know a very nice lady with an advanced Nokia smartphone which had third-party applications.

Including a virus.

It racked up US$300 in MMS calls before she realized it had one, took it to me and got me to eradicate it.

She didn't have $300 and got in significant trouble thanks to the incident. ($300 is a LOT of money in the Philippines).

I was quite happy my Sidekick had no third party applications after that incident, and so I fully support Steve's desire to limit them and make sure they are well tested.

D



RE: Support from an Apple fanboy
cervezas @ 7/20/2007 3:03:21 PM #
Your article completely ignores that there is an emotional aspect to using devices.

I think that's a great way to put it, and it is indeed the biggest threat to Palm from the iPhone. But let's qualify that term "emotional" a little. The emotions that I suspect most business prosumers are wanting to feel from their phone are feelings of trust ("my smartphone watches my back"), professional prestige ("my smartphone says I'm ready for business"), and connectedness ("my phone pushes critical information to me in real time"). The emotions that Apple is appealing to with the iPhone relate to style or personal prestige ("my phone makes me look and feel cool"), aesthetic enjoyment ("my phone is a work of art"), and entertainment ("my phone is a great iPod").

How big is the overlap between these "emotional sectors" really? I don't know. But it's certainly not self-evident to me that it's big.

No question that Palm needs to work on the more visceral appeal of the Treo, especially if they hope to gain a bigger share of the "consumer smartphone" market. They risk being relegated to a niche otherwise. But the mobile market that's emerging is creating some pretty profitable niches. And Apple has done Palm a favor in one respect: they're driving the average price and capability of smartphones up, instead of making them cheaper and less functional as Motorola and Samsung had been doing. That coupled with a new OS next year, and some new blood in critical engineering and product management positions, and I think Palm could have a few tricks left up its sleeve.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Support from an Apple fanboy
freakout @ 7/20/2007 6:54:08 PM #
David(s),

Nice thoughts, and I agree whole-heartedly, except on one thing: phone viruses. I've seen those MMS worms that travel around; I also had a friend with a Nokia who copped one. The interesting thing, though, is that this Nokia was in no way a smartphone; just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, garden-variety 'dumbphone'.

I don't believe you'll truly be safe anywhere from mobile viruses; not on a Nokia, not on a Treo, and not on an iPhone either. As a matter of fact, there is a (slightly shaky) case to be made that with all the iPhone hype in the press, it's actually a more attractive target for any hacker looking to gain notoriety than other mobile devices might be.

David Beers had a great sum-up of the various reasons why Jobs and AT&T probably shut the door on third parties: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9491/#134990 . Fear of mobile viruses is probably the bottom of their list. ;)

Wow, that didn't take long
freakout @ 7/23/2007 5:33:19 AM #
From Gizmodo:

Right after the first Hello World app, the New York Times is now reporting that security firm Independent Security Evaluators has discovered the first flaw in iPhone's security, taking "complete control" over all data and call capabilities by using a simple Web page, apparently just loading it and without any user intervention whatsoever.

In the words of the company's principal security expert and ex-NSA agent Dr. Charles A. Miller:

Once you did manage to find a hole, you were in complete control.

According to the John Schwartz reporting for the NYT:

the site injected a bit of code into the iPhone that then took over the phone. The phone promptly followed instructions to transmit a set of files to the attacking computer that included recent text messages -- including one that had been sent to the reporter's cellphone moments before -- as well as telephone contacts and e-mail addresses.

Scary? It gets worse: they can use your iPhone to make calls - all without any user intervention, just by loading the web page.

Steven M. Bellovin, professor at Columbia University and ex-AT&T Research Labs security expert, confirmed to the NYT that the hack seemed "genuine" and added that Windows Mobile phones could be similarly attacked.

While security flaws in the iPhone were expected, what is surprising is that they have appeared so early in the game.

a few notes

junkie365 @ 7/21/2007 11:20:25 AM #
I've used the treo product for 2 years now and I am generally happy with it but I do think that there is much room for improvement with the device and I don't see Palm as innovating - that is the main issue I have with the Treo. I think the 650 is slow and each time they come out with a new phone I race to check the cpu, and its the same as the 650. I just don't get that.

The iPhone on the other hand seems like an entirely new generation of a device and that part is interesting to me. I think I will get one soon and check it out.

I don't understand all of the noise about pricing. Currently with me Treo, for which I think I paid $400, my phone and data plan from Verizon costs almost $90/month for 450 minutes. ATT has the same service level for $60/m. Even if I got a new 700p, I'd still have to pay Verizon their $45/month dataplan, which I have decided is just not worth it anymore.

But I would like to say that I think it is true that there are many many strong points to the Treo. In terms of pure productivity, I think a tiny plastic keyboard does beat the virtual keyboard. I also think that Palm apps can be really great. I think that if Palm really focused on what it does best there is still plenty of room in the market for it. Even with the iPhone, I still think the Treo is a great design. Its much better to use than a Blackberry. I just wish for its own sake and the sake of its customers Palm would push the Treo platform forward.

two steps to hang up?

junkie365 @ 7/21/2007 11:29:32 AM #
Finally, only Apple could come up with a phone that requires two steps to hang up from another app and then call it “revolutionary”.

I found this comment strange. One of the things that I find most difficult with a Treo is trying to use another app during a call. The iPhone seems to have a much better approach there.

Also, regarding the phone on the Treo. I find that with mine, a fully updated 650 on Verizon, if I get another call and put the first on hold, I can't hang up the call I am on without hanging up both. Maybe there is something I am missing here, but this basic function does not seem to work on the Treo, or at least its very difficult.

500,000? 700,000? Erm, maybe not....

freakout @ 7/25/2007 8:48:19 AM #
Well, well, well. I wrote that half a million new two-year contracts in two days was a massive coup for AT&T. Turns out those gushing analysts (and Palminfocenter editorialists ;) ) may have been just a little bit off-target...

Apple Shares Dive After Disappointing Activation Numbers are Posted

Disappointing initial activation numbers for the iPhone are to blame for Apple shares declining over 6% in Tuesday trading, and reports from AT&T of a 'significant decline' in demand for the device at retail locations are not helping the stock gain traction.

Disproving analyst projections of up to 500,000 units being sold on the first two days the iPhone hit store shelves, which also formed the last two days of the second financial quarter, AT&T has reported that just 146,000 customers activated an iPhone during the period.

Since the announcement of the iPhone at Macworld in January, Apple shares surged more than 40% to an all-time high on Monday of US$144.18, but lost $8.81 per share by close of trading Tuesday after AT&T's second quarter earnings report was issued. The market will have to wait until third quarter results come out later this year to gauge the performance of the iPhone over a longer period.

http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=3554

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: 500,000? 700,000? Erm, maybe not....
SeldomVisitor @ 7/25/2007 9:08:11 AM #
As one who has lost all credibility you REALLY should look to trying to recover some of it piece by piece.

=========

Do you know the difference between a "sale" and an "activation"?

Do you know what, say, THIS:

-- http://tinyurl.com/2cmdnz

suggests?

Do you realize the iPhone went on sale at 18:00 June 29th and the ===activation== numbers are only for the period in time from 18:00 June 29th to 23:59 June 30th?

=========

It certainly appears that you need to sit back, breathe deep, and just not post for awhile about the iPhone because you CERTAINLY are not coming across correctly.


Lol. Being lectured on credibility by the Anonymous Wonder....
freakout @ 7/25/2007 9:15:50 AM #
...what a joke. I know all about the activation woes; all I was pointing out was that my "massive coup" line in the opening segment of the editorial was not quite correct.

(The editorial which you never read, by the by, so going by your argument one could say that its your credibility in criticising me that's at stake here...)

Be Careful Out There! Giggle!

RE: 500,000? 700,000? Erm, maybe not....
SeldomVisitor @ 7/25/2007 4:49:27 PM #
About a quarter million were sold.

Apple has released updated iPhone software

SeldomVisitor @ 8/1/2007 10:05:17 AM #
RE: Apple has released updated iPhone software
abosco @ 8/1/2007 5:59:56 PM #
This was a quick update in response to the security hole in Safari. Apparently, it added a few tiny features to the mail program, as well as increased stability to Safari.

The real update won't be here for a month or two, around the time of Leopard. That one will be the feature update that people are anticipating.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Widget as application

SeldomVisitor @ 8/2/2007 2:37:20 PM #
Apple has patented something interesting:

-- http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/02/apple-patent-attack-the-multi-touch-gesture-dictionary/

Read between the lines.

RE: Widget as application
freakout @ 8/2/2007 5:34:34 PM #
Mmmmm. Or you could actually just read what's on the page, SV. Oh wait, I forgot... you don't play that sucker's game!!

Giggle.

Treo (& others) vs. iPhone (browser comparison)

twrock @ 8/8/2007 3:17:19 AM #
Not that I really want to reopen this can of worms, but this article is an interesting read: Smartphone Browser Shootout: Palm, BlackBerry, HTC Vs. iPhone.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201202372


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iPhone's TREO Hit

SeldomVisitor @ 10/16/2007 8:16:28 AM #
== "...iPhone early adopters were "ten times more likely than
== other new phone buyers to have previously owned a Treo..."

-- http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/15/iphone-report-most-owners-left-treos-sidekicks-behind/

Speaking of opening a development environment...

SeldomVisitor @ 10/19/2007 3:36:02 PM #

iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?

twrock @ 11/14/2007 7:34:00 PM #
(From the "opening old wounds" department...)
http://wireless.itworld.com/4267/071114iphonetypos/page_1.html


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RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
abosco @ 11/14/2007 9:42:55 PM #
Hopefully when the phone is opened up, we can start getting some use out of Bluetooth and connect it to all sorts of data entry devices (BT keyboards). And there will hopefully be Office applications and reliable syncing.

Regardless of what a few morons seem to be doing on their iPhone's keyboard, my mistakes are minimal. The phone seems to catch and correct them without any effort from me. When you try to correct it during each word is where it really slows down. If you just type and reread the paragraph after you're done, it works perfectly.

And like I've always said before, I would much rather take the extra screen real estate over a tiny keyboard. Hands down. Anybody who says otherwise either owns a Blackberry (which is great for corporate email), or simply hasn't tried anything other than 320x320.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
hkklife @ 11/14/2007 10:54:45 PM #
I'll take 320x480 or better over a thumboard ANY DAY. HOWEVER, give me a good stylus like the T|T/LifeDrive boing boing stylus + Graffiti 1 and step out of my way!! I have thick, fat thumbs. It's hard enough to type on a Treo keyboard. The Centro is terrible in comparison and the iPhone/Touch is even worse.

I just got an iPod Classic and, guys, I have to admit....Apple ain't the UI master I thought they were! A good Palm OS device (basic, built-in core PIM apps/functions, mind you) runs circles around this iPod.

Let's face it. The iPhone is a lovely, lovely, device but Apple'll never open it enough to suit most of "our" tastes. What we need is for Palm to get their arses in gear and give us the 320x480 Treo with m500 styling cues we've been waiting years for!



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
abosco @ 11/15/2007 3:08:09 AM #
You're comparing twirling your thumb in a circle (perfect for scrolling down huge music lists) to stylus-based input. It's not the same.

Try out an iPhone or iPod Touch. You will be ASTONISHED at the UI.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
freakout @ 11/15/2007 6:36:35 AM #
Anybody who says otherwise either owns a Blackberry (which is great for corporate email), or simply hasn't tried anything other than 320x320.

Or is a heavy SMS'er. The original reason I bought a Treo was for the full QWERTY 'cause T9 bugged the bejesus out of me. Still does.

iPod Touch started cropping up in Oz a few weeks ago. UI is pretty and functional. And not as efficient as a device with buttons. Keyboard is not a patch on a proper physical one. Anyone who says otherwise is either crazy or insane.

By the by, there ain't nothin' wrong with having stylus input as an option. Apart from the possibilities it affords for note-taking apps, handwriting recognition etc it's also smarter and more efficient in some situations than smudging your greasy mitts all over the screen.

It's just another example of how Apple devices are prisons. Beautiful prisons, with golden, diamond-studded bars and guards who wear turtlenecks. But prisons nonetheless.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
mikecane @ 11/15/2007 9:29:56 AM #
Do any of you know that Die!NOKIA!Die! has put a soft keyboard on their Anti-Net Tabs (one designed for FINGERTIP typing, as opposed to the original tap-tap-tap stylus tap-tap-tap-to-death)? Started with the 770. It's CRAP! If you want to gripe about an on-screen keyboard that doesn't work well, start with the Finns. The iPhone's soft keyboard is heaven-sent by comparison!

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
InsGuy @ 11/15/2007 2:22:45 PM #
I went from the X30 (using G1-type data entry) to the iPhone and think it's pretty good! Yes, I could enter notes faster with a stylus and Winmob's version of G1, but I have no problems with the on-screen keyboard of the iPhone. For some, I guess, it'll work great, and for others, it probably won't. I don't take a lot of notes like I used to, so the iPhone's keyboard works great for me. If I still had to enter data and notes like I used to, then I would REALLY miss my stylus and G1 data entry.


All good things...

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
hkklife @ 11/15/2007 8:40:35 PM #
Bosco;

I am the one-week-old owner of a lovely new black iPod Classic 160GB. The size, considering the capacity of the HD, is phenomenal. Build quality is great. Screen is lovely. Battery life is rather decent. However, the scroll wheel is atrocious. It's decent for scrolling through 20GB of tunes. But ~130GB? Forget about it. I'm constantly over or undershooting where I want to end up. I wish the iPod had something like the classic one-handed contacts lookup of POS.

But worst of all is iTunes and the iPod's file management. In fact, iTunes 7.5 under Windows (XP OR Vista) is right there up on my "worst things of all time" list alongside the initial releases of the LifeDrive and 700p (and the Virtual Boy & Windows ME). For more on this matter, see my thread in the PIC OT forum.

P.S. I'd cheerfully pay $100 more for, say, a Cowon version if the iPod that was identical in every way BUT fully supported UMS for drag'n drop music adding and didn't require iTunes.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
jca666us @ 11/16/2007 11:15:57 AM #
Or is a heavy SMS'er. The original reason I bought a Treo was for the full QWERTY 'cause T9 bugged the bejesus out of me. Still does.

>iPod Touch started cropping up in Oz a few weeks ago. UI is pretty and functional.
>And not as efficient as a device with buttons.

>Keyboard is not a patch on a proper physical one. Anyone who says otherwise is
>either crazy or insane.

Or they prefer to have more screen real estate - all mobile devices have compromises. I prefer a virtual keyboard - rather than a small square screen.

>By the by, there ain't nothin' wrong with having stylus input as an option.
Stylus won't work with a capacitive touch screen.

BTW, I think Apple's made a UI that work better with your finger than a PDA does with a stylus.

>Apart from the possibilities it affords for note-taking apps, handwriting
>recognition etc it's also smarter and more efficient in some situations than
>smudging your greasy mitts all over the screen.

You need to stop eating onion rings and wash your hands once in a while. Seriously, with the screen on - smudges are not visible.

>It's just another example of how Apple devices are prisons. Beautiful prisons,
>with golden, diamond-studded bars and guards who wear turtlenecks. But prisons
>nonetheless.

I'd consider an antiquated single tasking garnet based palm os device to be a far greater prison - a prison on your productivity.

Keep drinking that palm kool-aid fraak. Maybe by 2009 Palm will figure out what they need to do.

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
freakout @ 11/25/2007 7:00:51 AM #
I'd consider an antiquated single tasking garnet based palm os device to be a far greater prison - a prison on your productivity.

At least those "antiquated, single-tasking" devices can play music in the background without randomly crashing:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1017279&tstart=0

Revolutionary!

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
twrock @ 11/25/2007 8:19:21 AM #
Now that thread is rich. Here's a comment that had me laughing:
While it should work properly, the truth is the iPhone is better at one task at a time. I don't use it for playing music because a Nano does it better (in a lot of ways) but I do use it to play movies (which it does very well). To me when I'm waiting this is a better use of it than to try and surf and listen to music as well.

Long live convergence!


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RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
jca666us @ 11/25/2007 12:45:27 PM #
>At least those "antiquated, single-tasking" devices can play music in the background without randomly
>crashing:

OMG!!! The iphone has a bug!!! Hopefully they won't go the Palm route - ignore the bug.

Apple is good at providing timely firmware updates - something Palm has no grasp of.

Long after this bug is fixed, Palm will still be trying to get their "next gen" OS written.

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
abosco @ 11/25/2007 4:43:57 PM #
>>At least those "antiquated, single-tasking" devices can play music in the background
>>without randomly crashing:
>>http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1017279&tstart=0
>>Revolutionary!

Hi Freakout, and welcome to last summer. That bug was back in June. It was solved in an August update. If this were Palm, the bug wouldn't have even been brought to their attention yet, much less worked on and FIXED. Nor would Apple introduce an update that basically BROKE the phone (not counting third party unlocked iPhones which Apple specifically stated before a major upgrade, "DO NOT UPDATE IF YOU UNLOCKED IT!").

Do you want me to start on the bugs with the Treo? The fact of the matter is that you spring a rubbery one every time you open up Blazer and it doesn't crash. That's a Treo accomplishment. Meanwhile, all you can do is bring up an iPhone bug that was born and killed in five weeks. Now there's a strong case for the Treo. Moron.

Have you even used an iPhone yet? Nope, you're still sitting on the sidelines criticizing it. You'll change your tune once you use one and realize its true strengths. I've had so many people criticize me for buying one, only to have me smile, flip the device around 180 degrees, and let them play with it for three minutes. Suddenly, they change from, "I would never pay that much," to, "How much is it now? And the monthly fee? ...That's it? Are you sure? AT&T?"

I wonder what Freakout will be saying in February when the iSDK comes out. That the Treo still has more buttons, and is therefore still superior? Or that a stylus somehow makes you a better worker?

You are the definition of a fanboy. Plain and simple. You truly have no idea. I have used the Palm OS for many years, and I was a huge advocate for the platform. I have used Treos up until the 680. I have used Windows Mobile and HTC products extensively. The iPhone is the best smartphone I have ever used, bar none. And unfortunately, you can't say that because you haven't touched one.

Notice nobody else ever agrees with you?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
freakout @ 11/25/2007 5:33:33 PM #
abosco:
Hi Freakout, and welcome to last summer. That bug was back in June. It was solved in an August update.

Hi Bosco! How's the weather over there? You seem awfully sensitive... Note this date from the last post in that thread:

Posted: Nov 4, 2007 3:38 PM

I have have been having the same problem (music cutting out while using using safari--both on Edge and wifi). I took the first iPhone I bought back to Apple for a replacement and the replacement has the exact same problem. Moreover, when I met with Mac's "geniuses" (gimmie a break) they essentially said "well, that's just part of owning and iPhone," as if such a bug should be acceptable. I cannot believe that Apple has allowed iPhones to ship with this problem. Extremely disappointing. So much for Apple's quality control/quality assurance. I wish I had simply returned it instead of getting a replacement. At this point, I wish I had purchased a different phone from a different company.

Is that the definition of "solved" nowadays? Seems I can't keep up with the rapidly-evolving English language anymore...

Re: iPhone can't multitask?
Posted: Nov 24, 2007 1:32 PM

It happens with iPod Touch as well. My instinct leads me to think it's not a lack of multi-tasking but a crashing of the iPod service(s) similar to how MobileSafari will sometimes crash and revert you to the home screen.

Hopefully a future firmware update will fix it.

Oh dear...

abosco:
Notice nobody else ever agrees with you?

Well, I've certainly noticed that you don't - which is what makes this so much fun! :D

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
mikecane @ 11/25/2007 7:36:42 PM #
WTF? This is still going on? Stick a fork in it! It's more done than Thanksgiving turkey (which was two frikkin days ago!).

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
abosco @ 11/25/2007 8:05:38 PM #
This was a relatively big issue a few months ago, like I said. It was solved in an update, and has since been minimized. Whether one or two people are still experiencing a problem months down the line could either be the result of not updating, or a problem with their software in particular. The internet is full of crap, and like any operating system, sometimes it needs a reboot to keep things fresh and quick.

I had the music problem in Safari. After one of the three updates so far, it never happened again. The same happened to a lot of people. The problem came, it was solved, and it was done. Do I need to remind you of all of Palm's ridiculous mistakes? Does SUDS mean anything to you? It does to me. Shortcut - 8. Remember that?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
twrock @ 11/25/2007 8:44:33 PM #
C'mon Bosco, you've got to at least admit that the problem still exists. You say the problem is "done", but those guys who are still reporting it would beg to differ.

I am in no way "anti-iPhone". I'd love to own one (if someone else paid for it). But until I see what the SDK really is and just what it "opens" the iPhone up to, I'm not ready to jump ship from my fully-tweaked-to-meet-my-needs Palm OS handheld. (My handheld is a useful tool first and an entertainment toy second; my smartphone would need to be the same.) If the iPhone starts to achieve that level of flexibility, then maybe I'll become a happy iPhone/iPod Touch user.

OT: Have you been noticing the fantastic uptake of the iPhone in England? (a bit of sarcasm there) I'm curious about how culture affects "product hysteria". It's not just the iPhone, it's everything! If it's hot and everyone else is getting one, I've gotta have it! Seems to affect some cultures far more than others, and it seems the US is right up there at the top.


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RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
freakout @ 11/25/2007 10:19:24 PM #
Do I need to remind you of all of Palm's ridiculous mistakes?

No, not at all. I just get a kick out of gently reminding you iPhone folks that for all your unseemly groveling at the Altar of Apple (and the even more unseemly premature dancing over Palm's grave), the iPhone is flawed. Not fatally so, but certainly enough to blunt all those endless, boring criticisms of Palm OS... and definitely enough to put the lie to Apple's ridiculously over-hyped marketing.

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
jca666us @ 11/26/2007 8:44:56 AM #
freak - if you take your post and replace "apple" with "palm" you could be talking about yourself?

You are the epitomy of an ignorant obstinant palm fan.

The fact that there are people posting here who you consider to be apple fans is good.

Their rational talk only serves to counter your ignorant spewings!

Here's a message to you freak from 2007 "PALM IS DEAD - DEAL WITH IT!"

You're such a buffoon at times - I'm frankly surprised you don't see it.

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
mikecane @ 11/26/2007 9:00:43 AM #
Fork. Stick in. Now.

RE: iPhone virtual keyboard not all it's cracked up to be?
freakout @ 11/26/2007 4:04:36 PM #
^^ Oh, alright, fine. Killjoy. :P
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/26/2007 4:09:18 PM #
Once again, iPhone idiots go nuts over something Palm people have been enjoying for years. Only we don't have to hack our devices, void our warranties and cut ourselves out of future software updates to do it. Viva la revolucion!
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/26/2007 6:28:33 PM #
Yeah, go pinch your screen -- and cry.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
Poopie @ 11/26/2007 7:07:13 PM #

we don't have to hack our devices, void our warranties and cut ourselves out of future software updates to do it.

Riiight -- no hacking. Palm users only need to download filez, manage which apps and databases can be stored internally and which can be run on the card, put the files in the right directories on the card, find out which apps haven't been updated to work properly with nvram, register UDMH so ScummVM can have enough heap to run if you're lucky enough to own a device that doesn't have enough free heap space. Seriously - I can't imagine that installing ScummVM on either Palm or iPhone would be much different - http://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=3334

Oh, and regarding being cut out of future software updates... how many software updates have you gotten from Palm recently?

Palm: Start feeling the FEAR
mikecane @ 11/26/2007 7:34:56 PM #
Some developers getting early iPhone SDK?
http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/11/26/iphone.early.sdk/

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/26/2007 8:20:20 PM #
Riiight -- no hacking. Palm users only need to download filez, manage which apps and databases can be stored internally and which can be run on the card, put the files in the right directories on the card, find out which apps haven't been updated to work properly with nvram, register UDMH so ScummVM can have enough heap to run if you're lucky enough to own a device that doesn't have enough free heap space. Seriously - I can't imagine that installing ScummVM on either Palm or iPhone would be much different - http://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=3334

The point isn't that the installation process is overly complicated (which it is); the point is without a jailbroken iPhone you'll never be able to do it in the first place.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
jca666us @ 11/27/2007 12:03:52 AM #
only until the sdk is released...

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
libatbulag @ 11/27/2007 1:17:06 AM #
I have had the pleasure of using the iphone the last four months and had made it my daily smartphone replacing my treo 680. The iphone is great at what it does and what apple intended it to do. It is a great feature phone great for web browsing / video and music. But it is not a smartphone to to be used and abused on a daily basis. With all this time and usage, there are plenty of points I agree with this editorial. I have moved back to my treo 680. Perhaps I will wait for the SDK and more usable native apps to come soon. Even with my Iphone jailbroken and loaded with apps to make it more functional it just doesn't cut it. Its a two handed device that requires fulll visual attention to navigate its functions. Some things I just cant live with iphone: Despite many claims, for me the softkeyboard just does not do the job. Treo keys maybe small but the tactile feedback really spells so much more usability. It gets old hunting and pecking and staring at the iphone screen when trying to type a few lines like websites and "Taglish" words. Calendar entry is a struggle still even after a few months of daily usage and there is no syncing to outlook or any other system as well. Yes, the iphone has beautiful eye candy and fantastic visual imagery to make you enjoy using it as a web device with wifi/ video youtube / music beyond that the messageing system and phone functions do not compare to my treo. I have missed so many calls and messages on the Iphone because either the ringer is too soft or the vibra is too weak. When I am out of wifi range, I end up using skweezer just to get better browsing experience as edge is horendously slow. Safari is such a powerful browser that wants to gobble as much bandwidth it can to present the page right. Its great at presenting info. only when wifi is available. Safari does not allow me to save a web page or its content. You can add bookmarks but not save pages, or onfo from a web page I visit. Safari is very picky, I cannot download anything off the web, No pictures, no sound, no video clip. Downloading is not possible at all. After months of real use, I have come to realize my iphone at this time is great at home for web browsing, music and you tube. Maybe that will change in a few months. I hope... But for now treo it is..

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
abosco @ 11/27/2007 4:08:09 PM #
The point isn't that the installation process is overly complicated (which it is); the point is without a jailbroken iPhone you'll never be able to do it in the first place.

You find any and every excuse to look down your nose on the iPhone.

How many emulators have you installed on the Palm OS? You act like Hotsync makes it so simple. You need EXPERT knowledge to run 90% of them. That's just the way it is. If you want to install the latest Astraware puzzle game on a Palm, it takes two seconds. But anything advanced will require careful manipulation to make sure the database and files are in the right place. Oh, and let's not get into VFS thanks to the antiquated Garnet OS. The Palm OS community identified the VFS problem seven years ago. It still hasn't been addressed. I still can't put a .pdb anywhere but RAM for any program, save a few well-coded applications.

It doesn't matter if I get a 4GB SD card for my Treo if it still only has 64MB of RAM to actually work with.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/27/2007 9:15:11 PM #
Like I said, the point is not that the installation process is overly complicated, which it is on both Palm OS and the iPhone. (I have both ScummVM and LJP, so yes, I know it's a pain in the ass.) The point is that Apple don't WANT you to install emulators on their iPhone, and before you can even do that you'll need to hack your device. No matter how you look at it

As for finding any excuse to look down on the iPhone? No. All I'm doing is pointing out the iPhone's many flaws. I consider it a public service. :P

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/27/2007 9:15:44 PM #
^^ Like I said, the point is not that the installation process is overly complicated, which it is on both Palm OS and the iPhone. (I have both ScummVM and LJP, so yes, I know it's a pain in the ass.) The point is that Apple don't WANT you to install emulators on their iPhone, and before you can even do that you'll need to hack your device. No matter how you look at it, this is not an ideal situation for a supposedly "revolutionary" do-anything device.

As for finding any excuse to look down on the iPhone? No. All I'm doing is pointing out the iPhone's many flaws. I consider it a public service. :P

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/28/2007 8:26:58 AM #
>>>The point is that Apple don't WANT you to install emulators on their iPhone

Rank retarded speculation. Wait til the SDK is out and then start flinging such mud. You act as if the iPhone is supposed to be all locked up forever. That's not the case at all or an SDK for it wouldn't be coming *at all*. Unlike Palm and most other companies, Apple won't rush a half-assed SDK to market. Apple understands that it's in to win. Palm is still limply dicking around and has wasted more opportunities than a sinner personally called to repentance by God Himself.



RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/28/2007 3:30:40 PM #
Blah blah blah. Apple can have credit for their SDK once they actually release the damn thing. In the meantime, their platform is locked down tighter than a medieval princess's chastity belt.
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
SeldomVisitor @ 11/28/2007 4:27:29 PM #
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
Poopie @ 11/28/2007 5:27:29 PM #

All I'm doing is pointing out the iPhone's many flaws.

Freakout - you're doing a great job as Palm Minister of Information. Keep up the good work. I'm starting to believe that Apple doesn't make any PDAs or smartphones.
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
nastebu @ 11/28/2007 8:11:17 PM #
But freakout, what should Apple do that they're not doing? Do we consumers really *want* Apple to snap off that chastity belt just yet?

The bug you pointed out says otherwise. Let them get the platform stable, and then open it up. It seems likely they're going along at the software engineer's speed rather than mucking after bloggers. Better to take six months and road test the operating system thoroughly, rather than throw out a messy and bug-ridden piece of crap.

As for the missing features, the diminish the usefulness of the iPhone, no doubt. But would adding MMSMS or video or whatever really make you lay off the device? Would copy and paste make it "revolutionary"? The iPhone is paradigm changing not because of the combination of features it offers. It's paradigm changing because it completely overturns the consumer's expectation of his/her cell phone. The industry in the US has been changed utterly by the iPhone. We've suddenly started to expect our phones to be easy to use and engaging and not slathered with the carrier's limitations and logos. That's a very good thing that transcends any particular feature. That changed relationship to the device is why the thing really can be called "revolutionary."



RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/28/2007 9:20:03 PM #
Overturns expectations of the cellphone? How so? It's not like Apple are selling it unlocked in Apple stores, cutting out the carriers. That would be game-changing. On the contrary, they're charging 400 bucks with a two-year contract, which is hardly liberating US consumers from the tyrannical carrier overlords. If you believe Jobs, the whole reason it shipped without third-party app support was because AT&T "didn't want it to take down their East Coast network" or some rubbish like that. (Nevermind the fact the Palm and WinMob users have happily been using third-party apps on the same network for yonks.)

Two revolutionary things about the iPhone: desktop-style web browsing and multi-touch, which while innovative is really just an alternative to stylus input rather than a complete replacement.

Maybe Apple's marketing has trained people to expect more from their cellphones. But they were all moving in this direction anyway, with or without Apple's assistance.

What really would have made the iPhone revolutionary? Simple: full-fledged third-party app support from the get-go, combined with an iTunes storefront for selling them - that was open to anyone, not just Apple-approved devs. Apple have the power to make mobile applications popular with everybody, not just the tech-nerd set like us. But judging from all their past behaviour, they don't seem to want to do things that way.

As it is, if you hand me an expensive, locked-down phone that doesn't even have some of the most basic features of other phones, and try to tell me it's revolutionary, I will laugh in your face. It is not. Impressive, maybe, but not revolutionary.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
averageguy @ 11/29/2007 3:02:33 AM #
treo 600 is number 20
http://www.pcworld.ca//news/column/e6253afa0a010408000b1b14df0cb5e1/pg0.htm

palm pilot 1000 is 4
http://www.pcworld.ca//news/column/e58370d30a010408000b1b1450eda5b3/pg0.htm



m125-zire 71-zire 72
"Never pay full price for late pizza" Michelangelo

AT&T CEO says next year for 3G iPhone
SeldomVisitor @ 11/29/2007 6:22:30 AM #
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/29/2007 9:13:23 AM #
>>>In the meantime, their platform is locked down tighter than a medieval princess's chastity belt.

Then such sightings must be mass hysteria.

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/wow-im-really-out-of-the-iphone-loop/

Or else these people simply as not retarded like you.



RE: Can your iPhone do that?
nastebu @ 11/29/2007 10:56:24 AM #
Freak, multi-touch *does* replace the stylus. No going back now. It's much to easy and fun of an interface to expect people to go back to futzing around with a tiny awkward stick.

As for getting people other than uber geeks like us to use third party applications, I think that's in the works. Again, in the realm of the possible, I don't think we could have expected Apple to release a fully open operating system. Jobs's explanation for why there was no third party apps at launch was lame, but what he said in the letter announcing the February SDK made a lot of sense. They need time to get the OS right, and that won't happen until February. Can you imagine the press reaction to the iPHone if it had been more significantly buggy than it is? Everyone--and that includes you--crowed over every bug that emerged as if it proved the device was useless. No way could they have just thrown the puppy open and then mopped up the mess.

It's a whole new OS. When Palm releases their next OS, they'll have a similar problem.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
SeldomVisitor @ 11/29/2007 11:43:30 AM #
Hardwired 3rd party applications - how antiquated a notion.

Faster than you can blink your eyes, indeed in a mere couple months, the Internet is going to be flooded with use-on-ANYTHING Java applications as developers see where the REAL money is.

Has anyone around here read ANYTHING about Google or Verizon or...

Sheesh.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
Poopie @ 11/29/2007 12:55:15 PM #

Faster than you can blink your eyes, indeed in a mere couple months, the Internet is going to be flooded with use-on-ANYTHING Java applications as developers see where the REAL money is.

But... are these Java apps going to be able to send pictures by MMS?
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/29/2007 3:42:51 PM #
mikecane:
Then such sightings must be mass hysteria.

Right, so what you're saying is that you can do that on an iPhone straight out-of-the-box, no hacking required?

(tumbleweed rolls by. someone in the audience coughs.)

nastebu:
Freak, multi-touch *does* replace the stylus. No going back now. It's much to easy and fun of an interface to expect people to go back to futzing around with a tiny awkward stick.

No, it doesn't replace a stylus, nastebu. It's a supplement. Reasons why the stylus shouldn't be done away with completely:

1) Better and easier to draw on the screen with. Unless you're into finger-painting. I know Mike Cane is, but I thought most of us were a little more advanced than that.
2) Doesn't smudge your screen.
3) Ten billion times more accurate than a fat-ass finger.
4) Doesn't get in the way of your view of the page, like a finger.
5) and my favourite, if you get the pen/stylus combo, you always have a pen handy right there in your pocket. It's ultra-convenient.

Guess what? You can use your fingers on any old Palm or WinMob touchscreen device, too*. But you have the stylus as well, for those times when it makes more sense not to go smudging up the screen. And those times will always be occurring, no matter how much Apple tries to claim you don't need it.

*Yeah, I know you can't pinch the screen. Cry me a river.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/29/2007 3:52:12 PM #
nastebu:
Can you imagine the press reaction to the iPHone if it had been more significantly buggy than it is? Everyone--and that includes you--crowed over every bug that emerged as if it proved the device was useless.

Only because Apple's hype machine was standing in the corner of the room the whole time, screaming "IT'S REVOLUTIONARY!" at the top of their lungs. If they're going to make such lofty claims then they should expect - and deserve - tough scrutiny. I find Apple's marketing (and Jobs' original keynote) a complete insult to my intelligence. Revolutionary? Bullshit. They've taken what came before and wrapped it up in a prettier package. No-one should have to apologise for calling them on it.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/29/2007 4:58:41 PM #
>>>(tumbleweed rolls by. someone in the audience coughs.)

Mock now, Treoboy. You'll weep next year.

And someone brought up JAVA. JAVA?!!? Give me a hernia from laughter...

And it's not fingerpainting, you slandering cur. It is tactile color displacement!

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
SeldomVisitor @ 11/29/2007 5:03:26 PM #
> ...And someone brought up JAVA. JAVA?!!? Give me a hernia from laughter...

Have ya seen, say, Google Maps for Mobile?

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/29/2007 5:50:38 PM #
He was touting an all-singing all-crashing all-infected all-JAVA future. Of course there are *selected* GREAT JAVA apps right now. But everything JAVA? In your wet nightmares.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 11/29/2007 6:23:51 PM #
Freak, multi-touch *does* replace the stylus. No going back now. It's much to easy and fun of an interface to expect people to go back to futzing around with a tiny awkward stick.

Can you input Chinese characters with multi-touch? This is an honest question from me that I haven't found the answer to. Is there any sort of Chinese handwriting recognition for "finger" input on the iPhone? If not, there are a whole lot of people in the world who are not going to be able to input text like they can on any number of other systems' touch screens. For those of you who don't want that feature, sure it's a trivial concern, but for some of the rest of us, it's really important.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
abosco @ 11/29/2007 7:38:25 PM #
>>4) Doesn't get in the way of your view of the page, like a finger.

Proof you've never touched an iPhone. When entering text and editing, how do you think the iPhone handles this? Are we all just good at guessing? Pick up an iPhone and see what it does. I'm serious, try it. Until then, you're just a blithering moron. Still.

This is why I criticized you for comparing two devices when you never actually used one. You CANNOT make valid assessments until then.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/29/2007 7:57:15 PM #
Yes, bosco, I know that the little letters pop up when you're typing. What about when you're pinching the screen or thumb-scrolling? Fingers are gonna block the view more than a stylus would.
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
Poopie @ 11/29/2007 9:15:28 PM #

Can you input Chinese characters with multi-touch?

Someone figured out how to do Japanese input with ajax in Safari... http://niw.at/articles/2007/10/12/iphone-with-japanese-keyboard/

As to Chinese stroke recognition... well since there's no English handwriting recognition yet, I think that's going to be a ways off.

I'd expect we'll see a predictive PinYin IME first.

I would imagine that IMEs and handwriting (finger writing?) recognition methods will proliferate once the sdk is released, but given that OSX already supports a large number of IMEs for Chinese, I think Apple can do this with little more than a cross compile of some code.

Not sure how multi-touch would help write Chinese... Do you usually write with two pens? ;)

/used to live in Taiwan. Miss the street vendor food.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
nastebu @ 11/29/2007 9:45:04 PM #
Stylus issues:
(caveat emptor: I don't have an iPhone so I'm going off playing with them in the store and talking to my lucky bastard friends who do have an iPhone. I'm still considering my options to replace my left-in-Mexico T5.)

Freak, to me anyway, none of the reasons you cite are particularly compelling.

1.) better to draw on the screen: Drawing anything more than a crude smiley face never worked on my palm. Even the "write a note" function thing never worked well enough to use. The screen resolution is too low and the digitizer too insensitive.

2.) smudgy screen: honestly, nobody who owns an iPhone complains about smudges on the screen. It's a non-issue. Even in the Apple Store, where the phone passes from grubby hand to grubby hand all day, you don't notice anything on the screen unless the phone is off.

3.) more accurate: possibly, but the annoyingness outweighs this. One thing I always liked about my Palm was I never had to reach for the stylus on my nice big t5 screen. It's true it can be tough to pick out a link in Safari though.

4.) get in the way: the iPhone has that very cool magnifying glass thing for text entry that makes it easy to see what key you're hitting.

5.) pen/stylus. Dude, no offense, but geek-o-rama.



RE: Can your iPhone do that?
abosco @ 11/30/2007 2:55:21 AM #
>>Yes, bosco, I know that the little letters pop up when you're typing. What about when
>>you're pinching the screen or thumb-scrolling? Fingers are gonna block the view more
>>than a stylus would.

Nope. Not what I'm referring to at all.

>>4.) get in the way: the iPhone has that very cool magnifying glass thing for text
>>entry that makes it easy to see what key you're hitting.

Bingo. When you're editing text, you're not left to simply guess where you're placing the cursor. It pops up a magnifying glass above your finger for better precision during text editing.

You don't learn things like that from looking at a spec sheet. You need to physically USE a device before you can make sweeping generalizations. And it's simple features like that which make the UI so incredibly easy to learn, navigate, and use. Get the picture?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/30/2007 3:09:09 AM #
5.) pen/stylus. Dude, no offense, but geek-o-rama.

Ha! Your insult might have a little more bite if you were, say, an attractive woman who I actually knew in real life. But you're a guy arguing about phones in the forums of the Internet. It's like George Bush calling you a dumbass.

Anyway, your refutations basically boil down to "I don't need it and never liked it, so why should anyone else?" But the bottom line is that where once you had two touch options - stylus and fingers - the iPhone gives you only one. Bzzzzt! iPhone loses. Thanks for coming.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
SeldomVisitor @ 11/30/2007 5:04:03 AM #
> .../used to live in Taiwan. Miss the street vendor food.

Gee PeeCoo, La dah.

Yum.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 11/30/2007 8:16:59 AM #
Not sure how multi-touch would help write Chinese... Do you usually write with two pens? ;)

No, but I do often eat with two chopsticks.

Pinyin IME is of course possible and simple. But that doesn't even come close to the helpfulness of handwriting recognition, particularly when you are trying to look up characters that you don't recognize. There are plenty of other reasons to write characters as well.

I'm curious as to what does happen currently if someone tries to use a stylus on their iPhone. Is it no problem? Does everything work just fine? If so, there is probably no reason why from a hardware and base level software perspective that the iPhone wouldn't be able to deal with Chinese hand writing recognition. It would just require some company writing or porting the software over. If there is money to be made, you can count on some Taiwanese company to do it.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
nastebu @ 11/30/2007 11:21:34 AM #

Anyway, your refutations basically boil down to "I don't need it and never liked it, so why should anyone else?" But the bottom line is that where once you had two touch options - stylus and fingers - the iPhone gives you only one. Bzzzzt! iPhone loses. Thanks for coming.

Yes, that's why I started by qualifying my comments, "to me, your points made no sense." This is a blog. It's all personal opinion.

Options are great, when the are real options. There are hundreds of breakfast cereal in a supermarket--lots of options, right? But they're pretty all much made out of sugar, corn syrup, and food dye. Not such great options really. Choosing between fingers and stylus on the Palm pretty much amounts to choosing between awkward option of text input #1, and awkward option of text input #2. Not seeing much choice really.

Multi-touch is a different way of interacting with the thing. In its implementation on the iPhone, it's nearly instant, and feels like you're actually physically moving things around. It's a whole different ball game that makes a stylus feel cheap and awkward. And yes, that's my personal opinion, but I'm not alone. You can belive that everyone who thinks the iPhone is great is just a helpless fool deluded by Apple marketing, or you can deal with the fact that the iPhone is a new set of compromises that really does offer a new and particularly compelling choice. Lots of us ex-Palm users are hoping for more real choices, but not seeing any.

*accepts inductioin into the geek community graciously*

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
Poopie @ 11/30/2007 11:32:20 AM #

what does happen currently if someone tries to use a stylus on their iPhone[?]

Nothing at all.

I did read somewhere that a moistened q-tip would work, but I doubt I'll be carrying around moist q-tips any time soon.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
SeldomVisitor @ 11/30/2007 12:02:00 PM #
Something "big enough" might work - isn't that thing capacitive?

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
hoodoo @ 11/30/2007 1:32:41 PM #
ok...experimenting with my iPod Touch here

finger - works

stylus - does not work
top of pen - nope
earpiece from ipod headphones - nada

apple - YES (i'm not making this up, pressing the side of a whole apple will operate the touch screen) hmmm coincidence?

banana peel - yes sir

leather glove, hand in - no
leather glove, hand out - nope

therefore, I conclude from my 100% statistically relevant test, organic matter (that hasn't been through the tannery at least) will operate the touch screen, inert objects will not.



RE: Can your iPhone do that?
SeldomVisitor @ 11/30/2007 1:45:26 PM #
Hmmm...hold onto a metal object and do the same - like "unopened paperclip" or"edge of quarter" or "tip of car key" (but has to be all-metal).


RE: Can your iPhone do that?
hoodoo @ 11/30/2007 1:55:39 PM #
holding paper clip - no
holding canadian 5-cent nickel - no
tip of key - hahaha nice try

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/30/2007 2:51:23 PM #
What about very sharp head of pin (in honor of the pinhead who spat out the original "article")?

Here is your Chinese iPhone:

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/chinas-ferocious-iphone-clones/



RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 11/30/2007 5:30:58 PM #
...you can deal with the fact that the iPhone is a new set of compromises that really does offer a new and particularly compelling choice.

Oh, I dealt with that long ago. I just don't think it's "revolutionary", which seems to be why all these stupid arguments keep starting. iPhone fanboys are intent not only on defending the device's honour, but Apple's overblown marketing as well. Which is just sad.

I've manhandled the iPod Touch a fair bit; it's beautiful and great fun to use and I can certainly see why it inspires such loyalty. But as you say, it's just a new set of compromises. Not the perfect revolution. Unfortunate that so many can't handle hearing that. (waves to Bosco!)

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 11/30/2007 6:59:07 PM #
Interestingly, clicking on Mike's link shows you an "iPhone" that uses a stylus. Interesting because that'd make a lot of sense for Chinese input, so a Chinese made clone would be "better" if it could handle stylus input as well as finger input.

So, looks to me that the issues presented by Apple's implementation of touch input might make Chinese character input very difficult if even possible. I suppose that is exactly the same with the iPod Touch. And in that case, both of these products are off the "potential upgrade" list for me, even if they really open it up with that SDK and end up with a decent set of third-party apps.

Ok, there's still Palm, Access, Nokia (no matter what Mike says), possibly something based on the new Google OS, and some yet unknown option all still in the running.

So to answer the question posed by the thread title, no, your iPhone can't do that.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
Poopie @ 11/30/2007 7:46:25 PM #

a Chinese made clone would be "better" if it could handle stylus input as well as finger input.

Naah... trust me, once you get used to using a banana peel for input, you'll never want to go back to a stylus. Oh, and it just gets better with multi-touch and two banana peels.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 11/30/2007 8:40:52 PM #
>>>Nokia (no matter what Mike says)

And Mike ALWAYS sez: DIE!NOKIA!DIE!!! Die Now! Die Often! Die and Die Again!

Did you click on the vids in that post? (I didn't check to see if they're still active; no reason why not...) The software is pretty crappy.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 12/2/2007 4:22:18 AM #
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 12/2/2007 5:41:16 AM #
Sheesh. After reading the info on the Pogo Stylus, you really start to wonder about the supposed advantages of Apple's touch screen implementation. I know the Pogo people are just trying to market their product, but with all of those "problems" presented by the iPhone's touch screen, you wonder how anyone gets anything productive done at all. Do you really have to take off your gloves just to answer a phone call?!! That's nuts.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 12/2/2007 5:52:55 AM #
^^ No, it's Revolutionary! ;)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 12/2/2007 11:55:46 AM #
>>>Do you really have to take off your gloves just to answer a phone call?!! That's nuts.

Finger condoms are NOT allowed. It's called Multi-TOUCH. Now make it go "oooohhhhh."

Maybe you need these:

http://www.tavoproducts.com/TavoGloves.html

Interesting that the guy who HATES the iPhone posts the stylus before I did...

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 12/2/2007 8:13:56 PM #
It may be a stylus, but once again it is a completely blunt object, and I seriously doubt that it is going to do anything to help with issues like Chinese character input.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 12/2/2007 8:24:09 PM #
5.) pen/stylus. Dude, no offense, but geek-o-rama.

Yup, an' 'em Tavo gloves are really cool, man. (eyes rolling)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 12/3/2007 11:58:31 AM #
Yeah, baby, those gloves will really be a chick magnet, no?

"Oh my god!! Look at those gloves! He must own an iPod!!!"

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
abosco @ 12/3/2007 7:45:00 PM #
Yup, an' 'em Tavo gloves are really cool, man. (eyes rolling)

If you're worried about looking cool, then don't wear gloves in the first place.

And of course, freakout takes another opportunity to look down his nose on the iPhone. OH MY GOD YOU CAN'T USE IT WITH GLOVES ON! IT IS HORRIBLE AND LACKS INNOVATION AND IT IS ALL DECEPTIVE MARKETING BY APPLE! EXCUSE ME WHILE I GO TOSS SALAD!!!!!

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
freakout @ 12/3/2007 10:41:43 PM #
^^ Sheesh, no need to shout Bosco. And please, stop fishing for clues as to my sexual habits. I'm not going to date you. Get over it.
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 12/4/2007 5:20:08 AM #
If you're worried about looking cool, then don't wear gloves in the first place.

If you have met me, you'd know I'm well beyond trying to look cool (it's just an age thing at this point). I was merely doing a little mocking of the idea that using a stylus is "geek-o-rama". I'm about function. If it functions well, I'll use it, geek or not geek. Having to take off your glove to answer a phone call is simply not "functional".


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
nastebu @ 12/4/2007 12:04:44 PM #
For the record, I wasn't calling styli geek-o-rama, but the combination pen/stylus, which I would expect to get snickered at for using.

Geek isn't even necessarily an insult, but it's an impulse I think we all need to be careful to keep in check. Not only because it's cold alone in bed at night, but because what's functional and acceptable in the geek world of Palm Infocenter isn't necessarily going to fly with average users. Most Palm users add few if any third party programs, for example.

I don't use gloves because, like umbrellas, I lose them instantly.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 12/4/2007 12:18:49 PM #
>>>Having to take off your glove to answer a phone call is simply not "functional".


Ah, and you think people will be able to *dial* on a Centro while wearing gloves? Can it even be done with a Treo?

Yeah, yeah, you mentioned answering the phone. But a phone is for more than that.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 12/5/2007 1:10:10 AM #
Ah, and you think people will be able to *dial* on a Centro while wearing gloves? Can it even be done with a Treo?

Mike, are you forgetting who you are talking to? I have said over and over again that I don't want a Treo BECAUSE it has a tiny little keyboard and a small, square screen. I especially can't imagine how I can use the keys on the even tinier Centro. My only hope would be that I could use an on-screen number pad. But then, I'm back to the same problem: wasted space that could be better used for a large, rectangular screen (like the iPhone, but able to use both finger and stylus input like I can on my TX).

I should also mention that the weather where I am only requires me to use a relatively thin pair of gloves on the coldest of days. So, yes, I could imagine how I could easily operate a TX-like smartphone with a pair of gloves on. I will agree that hitting the keys on the current Treo line with anything thicker than a pair of surgical gloves is going to create problems. But at least people should be able to answer a call on the Treo with gloves on.

Hey, I just had a brainstorm! People can answer calls on their iPhone without taking off their gloves by tapping the screen with their nose! (But talk about greasy smudges....)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
abosco @ 12/5/2007 2:30:16 AM #
Hey, I just had a brainstorm! People can answer calls on their iPhone without taking off their gloves by tapping the screen with their nose! (But talk about greasy smudges....)

I've already seen that suggestion on another forum. Pretty comical to think about.

Regardless, I don't know what kind of pockets or what kind of gloves you people own that you can't pull off a glove and slide the bar in under 20 seconds. That baffles me.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 12/5/2007 4:28:34 AM #
For the record, I wasn't calling styli geek-o-rama, but the combination pen/stylus, which I would expect to get snickered at for using.

And in that case, I am clearly a geek right up there with the best of them. I have the Palm pen/stylus (the one that replaces the original and hides a pen under the plastic cap). But in all the times I've been observed using it as a pen, people have never snickered. On the contrary, they say "Hey, that's handy" (honestly the word "cool" has been used on at least one occasion), and, if they own a PDA/smartphone that has a stylus, they usually follow with, "Where did you get that?" But again, it's about function for me, not about what anyone else thinks about it. If something else works better for you, hey, more power to ya.

And Bosco, yeah, it's just a little thing. I agree it's really no big deal. I just think some of the iPhone fanboys need a little reality check. Like I said before, I'd happily take one and "probably" happily use it if someone gave one to me. But I can easily imagine some frustration with it compared to my fully-tweaked TX (at least until there is a decent sized third-party ecosystem). People who can't seem to figure that out and think that the iPhone is the be-all-and-end-all of the handheld world can use a little "reminding" that it does in fact have its own faults and compromises and can not possibly be the "right" device for everyone. And no, Steve Jobs is not "the prophet", so just because he said that the iPhone is the only truly "smart phone" doesn't necessarily make it so. (Do I need to be worried about the Apple jihadists?)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
mikecane @ 12/6/2007 12:54:49 PM #
>>>Mike, are you forgetting who you are talking to? I have said over and over again that I don't want a Treo BECAUSE it has a tiny little keyboard and a small, square screen.

Bah, I don't pay attention to what you want/don't want. Until your cries intersect with my eyes. And even then...

And of course Steve Jobs isn't The Prophet.

He is the Kwisatz Haderach.

Yo twrock!
mikecane @ 6/9/2008 4:16:54 PM #
You catch the ASIAN HWR in iPhone 2.0? For OFFICIAL!! NO jailbreak!

Go hold a pillow over that Treo (or was it a TX?) tonight while it sleeps.

Mercy killing.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 6/9/2008 7:41:29 PM #
No, I didn't see that yet. I will most definitely have a long look at that! Thanks for the heads-up.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Can your iPhone do that?
nastebu @ 6/9/2008 8:11:30 PM #
oh, that is completely excellent. Including Japanese I'm sure.

RE: Can your iPhone do that?
twrock @ 6/9/2008 11:48:32 PM #
Go hold a pillow over that Treo (or was it a TX?) tonight while it sleeps.

It's still a TX. I never could bring myself to buy a small square screened device, no matter how good the other functions. And "unfortunately" after replacing the digitizer with a glass one and adding both an internal mic and vibrating alarm, my TX is working really good at the moment. Maybe it'll slip out of my hand and crash to the sidewalk some time later this summer though. It'd be such a shame to have to upgrade.

I will say that I agree with the initial reaction of most; this look really good! But I also agree with most of the list Kris came up with below as "issues" I'd still like to have resolved before I "sign on the line" and become one of Steve's disciples. But the balance seems to have tipped over to the iPhone at this point (at least for me). And if nothing else, this thing is going to force the other players to deliver some better products themselves.

(Nah, I take that back; I will never become one of Steve's disciples no matter how many Apple devices I end up buying; he's just way too ......... "Steve".)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

Waiting, waiting, waiting!
hkklife @ 6/10/2008 12:16:24 AM #
Time for a blast from the past, folks!

http://forum.brighthand.com/showpost.php?p=1421414&postcount=1

I'm still waiting for those new PDAs Brighthand PROMISED us new from Palm back in 2006! On top of that, I'm still waiting for the Google Mobile Maps fix that Palm promised us last year. Heck, I'm STILL waiting for those wi-fi drivers Colligan promised us for the Treo 650! Aww, Hell, I'm STILL waiting for those "larger screens for palmtops" Yankowski promised us back in 2000!

Gotta give it to Jobsie--he at least makes good on his word!

***************
"Asked why the Treo 650 does not include support for Wi-Fi, PalmOne President Ed Colligan said the company will eventually make its add-on Wi-Fi card work with the Treo 650. However, he said the company still has to write drivers to make that possible, meaning Wi-Fi support won't be there when the device launches. "We do plan on bringing that out," Colligan said."


"In another room, a few executives watched Carl Yankowski's interview on CNBC, taping it for playback at the employee meeting that was to commence in minutes. After CNBC announcers gushed over "the most talked-about IPO," the camera cut to Carl Yankowski in the Nasdaq studio. Usually a compelling public speaker, Yankowski seemed out of his element. When asked about larger screens for palmtops, he answered stiffly, "We are well positioned whichever way the market goes."
As the interview came to a close, the reporter said, "I've got to ask you about your suit." Yankowski smiled. He was wearing a very special suit, he let on, designed to satisfy the public's high expectations from Palm's IPO. The shiny pinstripes woven into the otherwise standard wool suit were made from threads of pure gold. CNBC cut back to the studio anchor. "Was that for real?" he asked the correspondent. The Palm managers assembled around the TV set looked at each other. "We're not showing this video," one of the executives decreed. Then they walked out to start the employee meeting."



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB

SeldomVisitor @ 6/9/2008 3:10:20 PM #
Built-n GPS, etc etc etc.

Rolled out to ==70== countries.

- http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-is-finally-official/

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
mikecane @ 6/9/2008 4:14:54 PM #
But wait ... a $199?!!? Why, people can get TWO Centros for that and have ONE-EIGHTH the functionality!!

I guess Ed Colligan is smiling.

That delusional eejit.

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
SeldomVisitor @ 6/9/2008 4:19:40 PM #
It will be interesting to see two things (soon?) out of Palm - the Treo 800 feature set and it's pricing.

[AT&T sells the Treo 750 for $199, for example, after all the rebate stuff; how does the 750 stack up against the 8G 3G iPhone?]

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
SeldomVisitor @ 6/9/2008 5:56:30 PM #
Note - one of the "apps" available "soon is from TomTom:

- http://tinyurl.com/6qv6uh

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
Poopie @ 6/9/2008 6:02:48 PM #
3g iPhone is kicking butt and taking names, and look at the current articles on PalmInfocenter ...

New case for centrol
New charger for centro
New extended battery for centro
New rumor leaked about what color centros will be on carrier X

Please, PALM... give us some news.

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
SeldomVisitor @ 6/9/2008 6:05:34 PM #
RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
CFreymarc @ 6/9/2008 6:57:37 PM #
While I try not to trash Palm as much as other do, this time it is with both barrels. Palm has had 3G working internally for over three years now according to my sources. The only thing keeping it from being rolled out was the carriers saying "we are not ready."

Well, well Apple having more brass has thrown down a 3G iPhone that will probably be sold internationally as most of its volume. The race in the domestic US is on now on to finally finish 3G. For a change the carriers are going to respond to customer demand instead of culling a feature list according to their infrastructure budget.

When I see StyleTap on the iPhone, bye bye Palm. You made the mistake of following carriers desires instead of the desires of the carriers customer. The customer matters and not a bunch of mid-west MBA's that never wrote a line of code in their life!


RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
hkklife @ 6/9/2008 7:07:04 PM #
"3G working internally for over three years now"

Can you elaborate? Do you mean GSM 3G under Garnet or WinMob? If Garnet, then how's that possible due to the OS's inherent lack of multi-tasking/multi-threading and no one having ever written an UMTS/HSPA stack for Garnet?

Or do you mean 3G/EVDO on CDMA? We gotta give credit where credit's due--Palm's had that since the 700w in Jan 2006 (WM 5) and the 700p (Garnet) of May 2006.

For the record, Apple's just as guilty of cozying up with the telcos. They just have hardware that's compelling enough to warrant getting a piece of the action. I still don't see why (technical reasons, that is) the first iPhone *HAD* to be EDGE, to be quite honest. I think it was more of an issue of AT&T's network not being ready and Apple being greedy, NOTHING more.

Now, if Apple were to sell the iPhone through traditional retail channels w/ no contract required, totallyunlocked, no strings attached, and fully functional out of the box in a "PDA mode" without a SIM card installed....that'd be a real kick to the groin of the wireless telcos!



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

RE: New 3G iPhone - everything the first one should have been
freakout @ 6/9/2008 8:13:16 PM #
3G, check.
Standard enterprise features, check.
Third-party apps + iTunes distribution, check.
Non-gouging upfront price, check.

All they need to do is offer an unlocked version and they'll have ticked nearly all the right boxes. I'd still like some hardware buttons for call control, but that's a minor niggle.

I feel very sorry for all those poor, poor deluded fools who bought launch models. Steve ripped you off big-time, folks.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 --> Treo 650 --> Crimson Treo 680

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
SeldomVisitor @ 6/9/2008 8:18:02 PM #
Why do they need to offer an "unlocked" version?

They are selling that thing in ==70== countries (I think I read that THREE carriers in Australia, for example, are carrying it).


RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
abosco @ 6/9/2008 8:35:39 PM #
Are you kidding me? I got a HELL of a lot of use out of my iPhone in the past year. And Apple appears to have done a great job at fixing nearly all of the complaints: no 3G, no GPS, too expensive, no cut&paste, no third-party applications, and no enterprise applications. If this phone includes MMS, and there are applications released that can record video and voice memos, then this thing will absolutely destroy existing smartphones.

This is the real deal. Apple has hit the nail right on the head this time. I am very interested in what companies have pledged MS Office support for the iPhone, as well as any company that is going to develop peripherals. I'm mostly interested in a wireless keyboard, which I will snap-up in a heartbeat and turn this basically into a UMPC.

I am sad that my iPhone took a tumble three days ago on my way to the office and landed face-down on the concrete, shattering the glass screen after a four-foot nosedive. While it is amazing that it still works flawlessly, it pains me to read my email through a spider-webbed screen. I'll be picking up a 16GB iPhone 3G on July 11th. Mostly, I'm excited for the GPS functionality.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
freakout @ 6/9/2008 8:57:15 PM #
Why do they need to offer an "unlocked" version?

'Cause many people would prefer to buy the hardware outright and choose their own carrier and plan, rather than be locked into a two-year contract - regardless of how many gaols you have to choose from.

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
hkklife @ 6/9/2008 10:38:11 PM #
Maybe I'm just becoming hard to please in my old age, but for as many bulls eyes as the iPhone 2.0 hits, it has an equal number of misses:

Just a few of the (IMO) major shortcomings off the top of my head:


-GSM only
-No MMS
-No unlocked version
-iTunes
-No MS Office compatibility out of the box
-"Walled garden" SDK/3rd party development atmosphere
-No video capture
-Mandatory 2yr contract + in-store activation
-No removable memory card
-No stylus
-Cruddy PIM apps
-No alternate input methods other than the onscreen keyboard
-iTunes
-No A2DP
-Fixed battery
-iTunes
-Weak codec support
-No hard buttons (gonna be a killer for porting decent action games to this guy)
-iTunes


Now, let's assume that all of the specs we've seen for the Treo 800w & 850 are correct and they offer no tremendous leaps over existing Palm Inc. handsets. Those devices have the following shortcomings:

-No substantial onboard memory
-Small Square Screens
-Weak battery life
-Bulky/thick/unstylish
-Poor Palm quality control
-Overpriced
-(likely) mediocure camera & video capture quality
-No 3.5mm headphone jack
-Weak web browser
-Crude, unintuitive WM UI/PIM apps
-YouTube is less impressive than on the iPhone


My point is that IMO all smartphones (regardless of OS) still essentially suck & have too many compromises. The iPhone is still too dumbed down and WinMob 6.1 is still too much of an unintuitive kludge. A modern, robust, ROCK-SOLID STABLE overhauled version of the Palm OS could/should still combine the best of the RIM, Apple & WInMob worlds while retailing enough of the fabled Palm "special sauce". Unfortunately, I have serious doubts that Nova will ever see the light of day but that's another debate for another thread.


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
hkklife @ 6/9/2008 10:57:18 PM #
I also forgot to list that the iPhone has no voice dialing. I am sure this will be addressed by a 3rd party app but, come on-this has been standard and done well for years on all but the cheapest dumbphones. For flagship "smart" devices to leave this out in this day & age is just mind-boggling!



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

RE: New 3G iPhone - $199 8GB, $299 16GB
mikecane @ 6/10/2008 9:13:44 AM #
>>>Now, if Apple were to sell the iPhone through traditional retail channels w/ no contract required, totally unlocked, no strings attached, and fully functional out of the box in a "PDA mode" without a SIM card installed....that'd be a real kick to the groin of the wireless telcos!

Wait til next year. Isn't that when Apple's deal with AT&T ends?

And to that dolt who listed iTunes as a NEGATIVE 3x (wow, as if we could miss something that stupid ONCE), the frikkin iPhone is an iPOD, you eejit. You never have to deal with iTunes except for syncing. And there are even programs out that allow you to SKIP iTunes altogether. You can buy stuff OTA or rip on your PC and NEVER have to deal with iTunes.

What, are you managing your frikkin audio collection with PALM DESKTOP?! Puhleeze.

Prediction for new Centro pricing?

palmz22user @ 6/10/2008 2:20:47 AM #
Thanks to iPhone 3G, the entire spectrum of smartphones will need to be repriced. Palm can still capture market share... if it offered Centro for free on a 2 year plan.

The Me-Too Media strikes with a VENGENCE! A-GAIN!

SeldomVisitor @ 8/1/2008 8:30:54 PM #
Hey!

We ALL know about that exclusive AT&T iPhone deal, right? You know, the one that's for =5= years!?

Yup, THAT'S the one!

Well GUEWSS WHAT!?

It isn't.

It was all a lie.

Nothing but a rumor - at best - started at USA Today in =2007= with THIS article:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/2007-05-21-at&t-iphone_N.htm

== "...AT&T has exclusive U.S. distribution rights for five years — an
== eternity in the go-go cellphone world..."

[Notice the TOTAL lack of ambiguity there - not "MIGHT have exclusive" but plain old hard "has exclusive".]

by author Leslie Cauley and repeated by every single Me-Too Media outlet in the whole damn world (good old Me-Too reporting!).

Wrong.

Here's what the SAME AUTHOR Leslie Cauley says NOW!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/phones/2008-07-31-att-iphone-stephenson-apple_N.htm

== "...Under the original iPhone contract, Apple had the right to
== offer the device to other carriers beginning in 2009..."

Isn't that just plain amazing? Did you read any USA Today retraction - ever?

Gotta luv it.

I think this calls for a repeat of something I regularly post on Yahoo's Palm message board; it applies to ANY source ESPECIALLY a Me-Too Media outfit of any type:

---

Words to remember:

== "...Information posted anywhere
== should not be used as a substitute for
== independent research, and should not be
== relied on to trade or make investment
== decisions. Prudent investors do their
== homework and don't believe everything they
== read..."
==
== "...Never assume people are who they say
== they are, know what they say they know, or
== are affiliated with whom they say they are
== affiliated..."

[derived from the original Yahoo warning that used to be at:

- http://messages.yahoo.com/reminder.html
]

What an amazing joke on the cellphone-interested world.


RE: The Me-Too Media strikes with a VENGENCE! A-GAIN!
mikecane @ 8/2/2008 6:03:01 PM #
Get in line behind the gov't. Don't you ever pay attention to GDP figures and how they're revised away months later?
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/chronicles-of-depression-20-179/

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