Comments on: Editorial: Treo vs the iPhone: 10 Rounds

Yep. I gave my reasons: the iPhone's purely touch-based interface (and one non-reprogrammable button) mean that it will take extra steps to get things done. It also means that for the most part one-handed usage gets thrown out the window.

If they released an iPhone with buttons and some way to navigate other than the touchscreen, I'd be much more receptive. But they haven't and they didn't, so as far as functionality goes, PalmOS wins.

And you think VERSAMAIL is superior to Apple's Mail implementation?

Actually, I don't. Like I said, stuff like rich HTML and in-line photos means iPhone's email interface leaves Versamail in the dust. It's old and unstable. But Versamail is compatible with more kinds of email - it'll even do Blackberry if you want it to - and you can easily swap it out for a better third-party application. Plus, of course, the Treo has a real-life keyboard that is just easier to type with. And those are the real selling points for email in my mind, not pretty pictures.

You can't hear anyone on the Treo unless you install VolumeCare, and you can't interrupt the person you're talking to because the Treo phone is only half-duplex! It's like talking on a CB radio.

It's one thing to be biased. It's another to be a blind, ignorant fanboy. I've lurked on this site for years, but I just can't take the site, nor Palm's actions, any longer. Time to evolve, Tim.

Wow - I didn't know that - I thought that was a "feature" of speakerphone mode only.

the Treo phone is only half-duplex! It's like talking on a CB radio.

"We got another one!"

Did you actually read the article? The iPhone has a lot of good things going for it, which I praise it for, but as a phone it falls short and it doesn't take a genius to see that. Comments like "time to evolve" are just dumb. Evolve to what? A device that can't do messaging properly, a device I can't expand and a device I can't use my cool Bluetooth headphones with? Quit being so short-sighted; it's about more than graphics.

Do you even use the phone on your Treo? The sound quality is horrible. I ditched my Treo 650 for an iPhone last Friday and don't miss the Treo at all.

It's true that the now three-year-old Treo 650 had poor voice quality. Not so much of the new 680, which is greatly improved. And if you'd bothered to read a few iPhone reviews, you'd see that it's voice quality isn't anything to write home about either. Plus from what I hear it's on America's worst cell network...

You can't hear anyone on the Treo unless you install VolumeCare

Hogwash. That's true for a lot of older people who are half-deaf, but I've never had a problem hearing people on mine. And again, it was most prevalent on the three-year-old Treo 650. Quit livin' in the past, man...

Check out this review:

http://www.wirelessinfo.com/content/Apple-iPhone-Cell-Phone-Review/Audio-Quality.htm

Then again, you wrote a review of a device you admit you've [b]never even touched![/b] Please, do us a favor, and write about what you know (if anything).

As GSM handsets go, the iPhone's voice quality can only be described as "unremarkable." Not bad, but not particularly stellar, either.

And it's not a review, dopey. It's an editorial. An opinion piece, that clearly states at the beginning that it's based on the fresh new opinions that have been popping up over the net ever since it was announced. Perhaps you should learn to read?

It's arguably fair to critique the iPhone on the basis of missing features: no removable battery, no MMS, etc. But any criticism based on the touch-screen interface is hogwash if you haven't given it a fair try. Saying something is hard to use, when you haven't used it, is odious.

I personally use Palm products, and I have not used an iPhone. That makes my opinion of its interface invalid, too. So pretend your criticisms have any merit, I'm going to go through your points, and any of them that mention the usability of the interface I'll ignore:

1. Phone:

All your comments are based on the usability of the interface. If I want to know your opinion of the usability of the interface, my first question will be "have you used it?" Oh, you haven't? Then I don't care. You get no vote here. Score: Treo 0, iPhone 0.

2. Messaging:

Hmmm, critiquing those touch-screen keys again, are we? Your opinion doesn't count. But the MMS thing is a valid gripe, an actual criticism based on objective data. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 1, iPhone 0.

3. Email:

You yet again mention a keyboard interface you've never touched. Again, irrelevant. You give the iPhone props for features, but give the score to VersaMail because it's compatible with more kinds of e-mail systems. Personally, VersaMail is the reason I don't use e-mail on my Palm at all. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you personally actually use VersaMail on a regular basis. In which case you're basing your call not just on objective data but also experience. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 0.

4. Web

Unlike your confounding defense of VersaMail, you rightly excoriate Blazer. Like VersaMail is to email, Blazer is to the web: they are the reason that I *don't* use features of my Palm. You base your critique on actual data, such as Safari's ability to render full pages. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 1.

5. Camera

Your vote appears to be based on the specs of the cameras, which is as objective as you get. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 2.

6. Media

Interestingly, here you mention both objective data and personal experience, and then give more weight to the objective data. You don't like iTunes and the iPod interface, but you acknowledge it as an asset to the iPhone. Remarkably even-handed. Data trumps experience. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 3.

7. Usability

You know, I'd bet money that you're the kind of guy who discounts the opinions of people who say they prefer Windows Mobile when they've never tried the Palm OS. Be honest, have you ever expressed that opinon? You simply don't get a vote on usability if you've never used. Your vote doesn't count. Score: Treo 2, iPhone 3.

8. Extras

I'm grudgingly giving you this one, because the standard I've established is that data is what counts. You're right, there are more apps for the Palm. In fact, I would have an iPhone right now if PocketQuicken were available for it. But it isn't. I bet that there will be some kind of personal finance software for the iPhone soon, and on that day I'll bury my Palm and never look back, but as it stands today, you make a good point. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 3, iPhone 3.

9. Syncing

You point out that the iPhone has several syncing features Palm Desktop lacks. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 3, iPhone 4.

10. Price

People can argue over this forever, but this is completely a judgement call. Your vote counts. Score: Treo 4, iPhone 4.

So, if one ignores the opinions that are based solely on opinions, the phones come out even. But at this point, I'd like to turn something you touch on lightly into a full category of its own:

11. The Future

Apple has a cutting-edge desktop OS that gets updated regularly with new features. Palm has a rickety, rheumatic desktop OS that seems to be entirely stagnant. With that in mind, rate these sentences on a scale of believability from 1 to 10:

"The iPhone OS will probably enjoy regular updates and improvements."

Personally, I'd give that an 8 or 9.

"The Palm OS will probably enjoy regular updates and improvements."

I'd give that between 3 and 4.

I'll grant that there's a high degree of subjectivity in this analysis, here. But the companies' track records at keeping their software current are objective fact. If one is going to base future predictions on past performance, the future belongs to the iPhone. And that puts the score at Treo 4, iPhone 5.

Anyway blah blah blah I can't believe I spent so much time on this. Somebody shoot me. Enjoy your Treo, man, what do I care? Life's too short.

==========

BTW, given all the very valid objections, etc, to the "article" in question, it isn't YOU who are crazy but Ryan for letting that "article" get "published without a heavy editorial hand.

I, however like to do things like type periods without having to bring up a second keyboard.

1) ?
2) ?
3) ?

Give it a rest, Kiddies. The facts are that he wasn't qualified to write this type of "article", but the article still generated a lot of discussion on a site that may soon no longer have any PalmOS products to discuss. Until those who complained loudest start submitting articles (or at least regular commentary) to Palminfocenter, the biotchers and whiners need to S T F U. Period.

TVoR

You've got to be kidding me!!!! Anyone with even an ounce of common sense and critical thinking capability can tell that an entirely virtual interface is going to cause problems.

I mean, thanks for the latter point - it's sorely needed - but seriously. The only qualification you need to see that the iPhone ain't perfect is an IQ in double digits. I realise this precludes most Apple fans, but still...

I mean, thanks for the latter point - it's sorely needed - but seriously. The only qualification you need to see that the iPhone ain't perfect is an IQ in double digits. I realise this precludes most Apple fans, but still...

Timmmmmmmmmmmmmay, you're starting to get as punch-drunk as PalmOS 5. Anyone who has used high-tech equipment over the years is all-too-aware that how things appear on paper often has little bearing with how things function in reality..

While for some people a virtual keyboard is an unacceptable compromise, for many individuals these devices are used primarily to display data rather than to input data, so any reasonable compromise made to maximize screen space is appreciated. Furthermore, the Treo keyboards are by no means the paragon of virtuous data input methods.

On paper, it may seem that the iPhone's virtual keyboard would be a clumsy kludge, but people who have used the iPhone frequently comment that it's actually not that bad. Until you've actually had the opportunity to use the iPhone , remain unqualified to make the judgments that you made in your article.

Remember, Timmmmmmmmmmmmmmay: It's okay to cry. Let at all come out, Timmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmay...

TVoR

Sure, it's not that bad. Is it as good an input device as a real keyboard, even a relatively cramped one like the Treo's? Nope, and it never will be. Silliness like having to pop up an alternate keyboard just to type a frickin' full stop is a perfect example (amongst many).

And crying is for girls. Boys don't cry. If The Cure said it, it has to be true. :P

I've pointed this out so many times, but I'll say it again. That "obvious disadvantage" of no tactile keyboard comes at the advantage of extra screen real estate. You can fit more data on the screen of the iPhone just because it has a larger screen, attributed solely to the soft keyboard. So, the argument is - would you rather have a hard keyboard and small screen or a soft keyboard and large screen? You say the large screen is nice, but there is just no beating the hard keyboard. Meanwhile, you haven't actually used the soft keyboard. Do you understand why people actually got upset about your editorial? Until you actually use it, you cannot make that judgment call in that the extra screen real estate isn't worth not having a hard keyboard, period.

TVoR said it best (yes, it physically hurt to say that) in that you remain unqualified to write this type of article.

(For the record, I have written for PIC before.)

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

I prefer the Treo keyboard over Graffiti 2 if both devices are 320x320. But 320x480 or greater + Graffiti 1 would be preferable over any keyboard. Of course, stroke-based character input is NOT the wave of the future or the key to mass-market acceptance. After the raging success of the BlackBerry & Treo thumboards, I cannot help but think that one of the things that led to the downfall of the conventional PDA was a lack of cheap Treo 90-style devices. The average consumer never could grasp either G1 or G2.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Totally irrelevant.

Noting that someone cannot fly by flapping their arms does not require one to be able to fly by flapping one's arms first.

Noting that someone cannot fly by flapping their arms does not require one to be able to fly by flapping one's arms first.

I brought it up because of this comment:

>>Until those who complained loudest start submitting articles (or at least regular commentary) to Palminfocenter, the biotchers and whiners need to S T F U. Period.

By his listed qualification, I can bitch all I want.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Don't know how many times I need to ask this, Bosco - did you actually read the goddamn article?

I can see perfectly well the advantages a large screen provides. That's why iPhone is a beter internet device and a better media player. But a large screen means jack shit for productivity, and the elimination of any kind of buttons whatsoever makes for a more clumsy interface. AND IT ALWAYS WILL.

Ugh. Don't know if the caps and the bold will actually help, but we can all live in hope.

(Oh, and if you consider calling people a retard to be insightful commentary - i.e. every word that came out of Mike Cane's mouth in this thread - then it's no small wonder that you keep letting this point fly straight over your head).

Uh huh, so you can get the same work done with 160x160 monochrome than you can with 320x480 16 bit?

In your piece, you're making a load of judgment calls. Judgment calls that ACTUALLY REQUIRE USING THE DEVICE. Don't you understand? You can't sit here and rabidly defend your opinions without more supporting evidence than, "well I found a review that said so." That doesn't cut it.

>>Ugh. Don't know if the caps and the bold will actually help, but we can all live in hope.

(Oh, and if you consider calling people a retard to be insightful commentary - i.e. every word that came out of Mike Cane's mouth in this thread - then it's no small wonder that you keep letting this point fly straight over your head).

More-so to the point, I will not tolerate you sitting there and calling me an idiot. The majority of these comments are people telling you that you lack any credibility whatsoever (and they're completely correct). I'm not going to bother listing whatever credentials I have to be criticizing you, but realize that you'll never understand what the iPhone offers as an advantage until you use one. Evidence? You said the iPhone has a clumsy interface. You're a ****ing moron. You're wrong. Its interface is its biggest advantage. There's my first real insult to you. Enjoy it.

Have fun defending a dying company, pushing dying products with a dead operating system. A lot of people said OS/2 had so much more functionality than Windows ten years ago, and look what happened.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Rather than carry this on myself, I'll let The Best Page In The Universe do that for me. Have a read sometime:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Enjoy shooting huge sticky wads over your toy.

Boring. Try again.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Just to keep fueling this pitiful fire because it amuses me so:

Evidence? You said the iPhone has a clumsy interface. You're a ****ing moron. You're wrong. Its interface is its biggest advantage

Yep, the interface which you can't touch, can't feel, and must stare at to make sure you're hitting the right thing. The phone that doesn't have a hang up button. Wow Apple, thanks for revolutionizing the phone!!!! Where would we be without your stunning vision? What's next? Cars without wheels, maybe? Or perhaps mice with only one button! (oh, wait...)

Anyhoo, if you hated this article, you're really not going to like what I have planned for the future. Topics will include:

Why Vista Will Save PCs
DRM Is Good For You
Apple's Negative Effect on Modern Product Design
Mac Users Scientifically Proven Bad In Bed
Governments Should Filter The Internet
Small Penis Syndrome: An Objective Analysis of Republican Voters
Buying An Apple - Your Guide to a Second-Class iLife
Steve Jobs: Kitten Abortionist or Puppy Fiddler?

360 comments ain't nothin' on what we've got planned....

Hugs 'n kisses, Bosco.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Still I don't see how this completely ignorant and totally incompetent Palm guys (Fooleo??) could have achieved this with their dying platform? For sure they don't deserve it, but maybe they are just lucky, and the competition is even more incompetent. Well, not anymore, my personal winner is already chosen, its the Nokia E90. Now, a comparison of these two would be interesting (and devastating for Palm ...)

IIIe -> m505 -> T3 -> Treo650 -> Treo680

Many times the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so simply comparing features isn't very convincing. Just take the fact that WM blows Palm out of the water feature wise, yet many prefer Palm simply because of the OS, usability and user experience (which was my case for a long time, and you also mention that in the article). Obviously the same argument applies to the iPhone.

Also, some people have reported that they have gotten used to the iPhone's virtual keyboard and that it works quite well, while for others that's not the case. Until YOU try you won't know.

Having said all that, the iPhone definitely isn't for me at this stage. But neither is Palm OS in its current form.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

It's not like I don't like the iPhone: it's just that on paper, the Treo is the better device.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

IMHO, iPhone is aimed at a different user than Treo. It's excusable to not notice, because way back in the day, there was a "Zen of Palm." That should have given rise to a user experience like the iPhone advertises. However, I have found that owning a Palm is like owning a Windows box: it can work well if you like to tinker.

And I think that sums up your review. Treo is for people who like to customize, add on, reset and start over. iPhone is for people who want their phone to "just work."

Is that why it takes more steps to dial a phone number on the iPhone than the Treo?

Not if you're on Verizon it doesn't. Nor Sprint. Nor basically any other network right now. I was really itching to pick up a Treo last year, but the forced $80/month plan and the lack of integrated wireless killed it for me. (I would have been perfectly happy with a device that only did NORMAL cell phone use, and otherwise only connected online with WiFi.)

You must admit the iPhone is priced more compellingly than other devices right now. (at&t's network quality is a separate issue.) The low end is at a NEW low, basically (at least for any of the major carriers--I can't vouch for everyone...), as what one gets for $60/month with the iPhone you'd have to pay $80/month + individual SMS (or another frickin $10/month at this point) with Verizon, and roughly $80/month with other carriers. Even just counting a $20/month difference over the 2-year contract period alone...? Hey, lookit that! The iPhone has a significantly cheaper price!

Anyone smart enough to be wanting to BUY a smartphone is also smart enough to measure our their real cost over time. ;-) Features are the real factor, not cost. (Though one could kvetch about there being a higher up-front cost... It would be nice, since Apple is applying the revenue spread across two years anyway if they'd let you essentially roll the cost into your monthly plan to begin with. ^_^ But if wishes were horses...)

"^^ You've got me there: no, I don't. Actually won't even have a chance to play with one for at least a year, if the usual time to market in Oz is any indication. But I don't think that any of the points I've made would change if I got to play with one; I base my criticisms not just on Apple's own promotional materials and video guided tour, but the dozens of iPhone reviews and hundreds of comments from new users over the net. And just plain common sense too.
It's not like I don't like the iPhone: it's just that on paper, the Treo is the better device." - Freakout

Writing a review without actually using the device removes all credibility from your article as well as PIC. At least do some "journalistic/blogging" ethical writing by mentioning your lack of hand-on interaction with the devices in the article so readers can can be informed.

So sad...

iDay has come and gone, and the first iPhones have made their way into the hot, grubby hands of gadget geeks and Apple cultists. It's an important phase: how well is this svelte little beauty going to bear up under the hypercritical gaze of enthusiasts without the patented Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field surrounding it? ... Now that we have fresh, unbiased opinions coming in, it's time to see whether or not the Treo still passes muster.

If it's not clear enough for you that the article will be based on those opinions...

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

Which phone will be more stable and not randomly reset? Ignoring the Treo 700, which resets constantly, even my 650 resets at will. I'll pull it out of my pocket only to find that at some point it's reset itself. Sometimes without turning the radio back on. Or sometimes my GPRS connection goes down and requires a soft reset to come back - removing it's ability to pull mail.

Both are incredibly frustrating experiences that make the Treo a much less reliable phone than it otherwise might be.

iPhone is 2G GSM. So far as I know, you can't send and receive data while on a call with that technology. If you're in wifi range it's different, of course, but that's not always available. But we've already covered the fact that iPhone's internet experience is way superior, haven't we?

Which phone will be more stable and not randomly reset? Ignoring the Treo 700, which resets constantly, even my 650 resets at will. I'll pull it out of my pocket only to find that at some point it's reset itself. Sometimes without turning the radio back on. Or sometimes my GPRS connection goes down and requires a soft reset to come back - removing it's ability to pull mail.

Both are incredibly frustrating experiences that make the Treo a much less reliable phone than it otherwise might be.

My 650 reset itself about once a fortnight. It was a very well-behaved device. My 680 is almost completely bulletproof: it used to be that the only things that crashed it were Coreplayer and Audio Gateway. The latest Coreplayer update appears to fixed the problem, which leaves just Audio Gateway - and given how hard it pushes both the Treo and the Bluetooth, I'm not really expecting it to ever be perfect.

Long-windedly, I'm saying that the rare crash I experience nowadays is more than compensated for by the usefulness of the device. What's really annoying is Palm's incredibly stupid decision to remove the reset button...

Ahh, but I'm not talking about the internet experience. I am talking about the phone experience. If my phone doesn't work while I'm doing something (or my phone is automatically doing something) on the internet, that makes the phone that much less reliable. I miss calls regularly due to this.

Of course on the flip, flip side, the iPhone can't do any offline RSS reading which is one of the two reasons I haven't switched to one already. Need to read my feeds while I'm on the train. :)

Long-windedly, I'm saying that the rare crash I experience nowadays is more than compensated for by the usefulness of the device. What's really annoying is Palm's incredibly stupid decision to remove the reset button...

My 650 resets if not daily, close to it. It also does that awesome thing where it loses gprs connection and needs a reset - that happens all the time. And from folks I've known with the device that's not uncommon. There simply are two things that the Treo does that the iPhone doesn't that make it very difficult to switch, so I guess you're right on that front. It's just good enough on many fronts to not warrant a switch, where the iPhone seems to be very good at almost everything it does, but it misses a couple required features entirely. I'm sure they're coming though, at least I hope so!

Unless you're permanently in range of a wifi hotspot, iPhone is going to do exactly the same thing...

Do you know this, or are you making this up, too?

I wouldn't say the iPhone's more usable: it takes more steps to do things and more often than not will need two hands to operate.

As for it not being Microsoft, there's also another advantage: it's not Apple, either. :P

That's not usability, that's ergonomics. Usability is about how long it takes to learn how to use.

I really think that Treo and Palm herself will not survive the iPhone.

It's going to be interesting, no question. But I have a feeling the iPhone is going to have a much less simple impact on the market for Palm's products than most people understand. The biggest market for smartphone makers like Apple and Palm to be going after today is not the people who are already using smartphones and PDAs: it's the vastly larger group of mobile phone users who don't know how useful and cool it is to be able to customize their phone with native apps. The Treo and BlackBerry captured the imagination of the early adopters of connected mobile computing, but adoption has only barely pushed into the mass market. For the average phone consumer smartphones are still thought of as being either geek devices or gadgets for business people who are addicted to push email. What has been missing is a handset that shatters that image and gives the masses the idea that using their phone for more than voice and text messaging is useful and cool. Despite the fact that users can't install applications, the iPhone is complete enough to spark the idea and the habit of using mobile applications in the public mind. That will open up a market for smartphones that is vastly larger than the one that exists today.

Once that starts to happen there will emerge all kinds of profitable market segments for multiple vendors--including Palm--to exploit. If the current iPhone is any indication, Apple sees its most profitable segment to be entertainment-focused users. Palm seems to be focused on business users that spend most of their time away from their desk and deal with tons of email and office docs, while fostering an application ecosystem that enables the Treo to satisfy lots of niche uses that Palm can't really pursue themselves. These business users would never even consider an iPhone as a substitute for a Treo for many of the reasons Tim explains so well. Bottom line: they need a highly ergonomic, efficient workhorse for managing all their mobile communication activities and integrate with their IT department's email systems. Palm has to start executing better in going after this market, but I think we're on the cusp of a new phase of business mobility where applications other than email will be driving adoption, and Palm is far better situated than Apple to capture this. Apple will be a catalyst for this shift, smashing the barrier to mobile application usage that vendors like Palm, HP, and HTC have been unable to break on their own. That change in the public thinking from "this is my phone" to "this is my mobile computer" is going to be more important for Palm's future than the smartphone customers that Apple steals from Palm. If Apple steals 20% of Palm's current customers, but triggers a doubling of the smartphone market from 30M to 60M users, Palm still sells a lot more Treos, even if it's market share is diminished.

If I were Palm I'd actually be crossing my fingers that Apple does release an SDK in a year or so, because that will do more to create a "download culture" among phone users than anything that Palm itself would be capable of doing. Without that culture, there's no "big dance" for Palm to even show up at and no quality of execution will help Palm really grow its market.

In short, the iPhone/Treo/BlackBerry competition of today is a tempest in a teapot. The real competition is the one that turns a billion feature phone users into mobile computer users. There will be room for multiple winners, large and small, in that greatly expanded game.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

It's going to be interesting, no question. But I have a feeling the iPhone is going to have a much less simple impact on the market for Palm's products than most people understand. The biggest market for smartphone makers like Apple and Palm to be going after today is not the people who are already using smartphones and PDAs: it's the vastly larger group of mobile phone users who don't know how useful and cool it is to be able to customize their phone with native apps. The Treo and BlackBerry captured the imagination of the early adopters of connected mobile computing, but adoption has only barely pushed into the mass market. For the average phone consumer smartphones are still thought of as being either geek devices or gadgets for business people who are addicted to push email. What has been missing is a handset that shatters that image and gives the masses the idea that using their phone for more than voice and text messaging is useful and cool. Despite the fact that users can't install applications, the iPhone is complete enough to spark the idea and the habit of using mobile applications in the public mind. That will open up a market for smartphones that is vastly larger than the one that exists today.

Obviously smartphone manufacturers want to expand their market to reach new customers. The Treo 680 was Palm's attempt to reach the Average Joe. The jPhone was Apple's attempt to reach the Average Joe. Which do you think the Average Joe would like to own?

Once that starts to happen there will emerge all kinds of profitable market segments for multiple vendors--including Palm--to exploit. If the current iPhone is any indication, Apple sees its most profitable segment to be entertainment-focused users. Palm seems to be focused on business users that spend most of their time away from their desk and deal with tons of email and office docs, while fostering an application ecosystem that enables the Treo to satisfy lots of niche uses that Palm can't really pursue themselves. These business users would never even consider an iPhone as a substitute for a Treo for many of the reasons Tim explains so well. Bottom line: they need a highly ergonomic, efficient workhorse for managing all their mobile communication activities and integrate with their IT department's email systems. Palm has to start executing better in going after this market, but I think we're on the cusp of a new phase of business mobility where applications other than email will be driving adoption, and Palm is far better situated than Apple to capture this. Apple will be a catalyst for this shift, smashing the barrier to mobile application usage that vendors like Palm, HP, and HTC have been unable to break on their own. That change in the public thinking from "this is my phone" to "this is my mobile computer" is going to be more important for Palm's future than the smartphone customers that Apple steals from Palm. If Apple steals 20% of Palm's current customers, but triggers a doubling of the smartphone market from 30M to 60M users, Palm still sells a lot more Treos, even if it's market share is diminished.

More Beersy-style sophism. Your position (that the iPhone will increase the visibility + popularity of smartphones in the public eye, allowing Palm to benefit by feeding on the scraps that fall from Steve Jobs' JesusPhone table) is truly absurd, Beersy. The companies that produce a good product (e.g. Toyota) get ALL the pie, while companies that produce crap (e.g. Chrysler) get NO pie and go bankrupt. The fact that Palm was one of the first to produce a successful smartphone is meaningless now. That was then, this is NOW. The company is only as good as its current products. The jPhone is a solid foundation that just needs a few tweaks and a few applications to COMPLETELY shut out the Treo from the business sphere that you suggest Palm is focusing on. Opening up the jPhone platform would also allow third party vendors to supply "niche" apps for the jPhone, absorbing yet another potential Treo market.

It's incredible that you dare spout such utter B.S. in public like "business users would never even consider an iPhone as a substitute for a Treo". Business users don't want nice big screens, right? And they like using buggy, unstable poorly-built Treos, right? And they like having to hunt around for apps/utilities like ChatterEmail, Butler, Profiles, Graffiti Anywhere, Resco Backup, DiddleBug, Crash, Resco Explorer, Uninstall Manager, etc., etc. to get their Treos into a barely functional state, right? Sorry, Bubba but as soon as Apple fixes its surprising lack of a bulletproof business email solution for the jPhone then the Treo's only convincing raison d'etre disappears.

Yes the overall smartphone market will grow (with smartphones replacing featurephones for many casual users), but with every cellphone manufacturer now getting serious about the market Palm's share will drop dramatically - both in % market share and total # of phones sold. Starting NOW. The financial report from Palm's current quarter will document how quickly The End can come for a former maket leader. For the past 4 years Palm had the smartphone wading pool almost all to itself. Unfortunatrly, now the Big Mean Kids have shown up.

If I were Palm I'd actually be crossing my fingers that Apple does release an SDK in a year or so, because that will do more to create a "download culture" among phone users than anything that Palm itself would be capable of doing. Without that culture, there's no "big dance" for Palm to even show up at and no quality of execution will help Palm really grow its market.

Sure, Beersy. Release an SDK, make the jPhone even more attractive and give Palm's remaining customers even LESS incentive to stay with Palm. Real smart, Bubba. Do you not find it telling that so many of Palm's most ardent supporters have given up on Palm in disgust over the past year? These were people that actually CARED about PalmOS. Now Palm's customers are increasingly a bunch of business types that don't even know what OS their phone has. They will have no loyalty to Palm and won't think twice about leaving Palm behind as soon as the latest executive toy comes along. (Witness how popular the new small BlackBerry devices have become - the people/companies buying phones like the BlackBerry Pearl USED to be Treo customers. Think they'll EVER go back to Palm?)

In short, the iPhone/Treo/BlackBerry competition of today is a tempest in a teapot. The real competition is the one that turns a billion feature phone users into mobile computer users. There will be room for multiple winners, large and small, in that greatly expanded game.

Bull. And you know it. Ignoring Symbian's (bogus) "smartphones" and the BlackBerry email devices, you are fully aware that the smartphone market hasn't grown that quickly at all over the past few YEARS. Now that pie is being targeted (and fragmented) seriously by Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Apple, BlackBerry, HTC, etc. You should be embarassed by this feeble Palm Apologist crap that you've posted here. Shame, Beersy. Shame.

TVoR

All the possible good points of your comments are shadowed by your inexcusable animosity towards the previous poster.

There is really no need to be ironic or sarcastic, you could post your views and discuss them with other people.

Regards,

What can I say.... If you really wish that Apple does release that SDK, thinking that it would do Palm good, than I'm certainly glad you're not heading Palm. TVoR's car analogy above explains it very well. And why the he11 would you want to buy a Treo (in its current form) in the first place if the iPhone, by releasing an SDK, can do everything that the Treo does?

Honestly, would YOU buy a Treo instead of the iPhone if you could get the same apps/functionality for the iPhone through that SDK? Honestly?

And even assuming that an iPhone SDK DID make AJ (Average Joe) more aware of the possibilities of third party apps, do you think (s)he would ever pick a Treo over an iPhone after comparing the two devices at the store??

You have probably been around here for as long (or longer) than I, so you know people on this board have been asking for a modified Treo in the shape of the iPhone for years (large screen, multimedia oriented, etc.). Palm has been paralyzed for years, and the iPhone is an indication of the potential for the "new" smartphone market (i.e. converting non-smartphone users). Palm lost all their ground in the business market to RIM and WM. Now they are losing the consumer market to iPhone. What's left for Palm? The Foleo?

Some people say the the iPhone is a multimedia device with phone capabilities. Palm/Hawking has openly stated that they aren't developing any new PDAs, saying that there is no consumer interest nor growth potential in that area. The iPhone proves those assertions completely wrong: a well executed PDA+phone from Palm could have achieved similar success as the iPhone.

But Palm obviously knows better: apparently the Foleo is the answer to all Palm's financial problems, and not an iPhone-like device they could have released years ago....

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

I might consider it, for the real keyboard, but probably not for too long. The price is still a major deterrent, though.

But the real point here is that people will get used to idea of personalising their phones with applications, as well as ringtones and wallpapers and all that crap. Apple are in the perfect position to cement this idea in people's heads: using iTunes to deliver and sync apps, combined with iPhone's graphical wondrousness would be a huge boost to the mobile software market. Provided Apple lets more than a select few developers in, of course.

Once that idea is implanted - that extra apps are easy, fun and useful, as it is right now in Palm devotees - it's very hard to go to a device that doesn't offer that kind of choice. When people tire of their iPhone (which they do of any product, especially one that's changed every couple of years, like a phone) they're more likely to buy another device that lets them use mobile applications.

And even assuming that an iPhone SDK DID make AJ (Average Joe) more aware of the possibilities of third party apps, do you think (s)he would ever pick a Treo over an iPhone after comparing the two devices at the store??

The fallacy there is that you assume the devices will stay the same forever. Things change, and the phone giants (and no doubt Palm, if they have any sense at all) are all likely planning their own devices that are just as graphically swish. People won't use their iPhones forever, and many will switch to another brand of phone after a few years of ownership. It's the nature of the market.

Not many, considering that (with contract) you can get a Treo 680 for free, a 750 for $199 and a 755 for $279. Of course, it's bad news if these price cuts don't increase sales enough to make up for the smaller margins, but are selling more of them.

We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it. iPhone will make a dent in consumer sales, but we still don't know how big. (Although that massive launch has to be making Palm nervous. Some reports are saying they've sold 700,000 now...)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Not many, considering that (with contract) you can get a Treo 680 for free, a 750 for $199 and a 755 for $279. Of course, it's bad news if these price cuts don't increase sales enough to make up for the smaller margins, but they are selling more of them each quarter.

We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it. iPhone will make a dent in consumer sales, but we still don't know how big. (Although that massive launch has to be making Palm nervous. Some reports are saying they've sold 700,000 now...)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

One of the major problems with financial "reporting" is time - from the time you send things out (and report THAT) to the time those things actually get sold to end customers (and report THAT) and the time the rebates come streaming in (and you adjust numbers to =begin= to report THAT (*)) a lot of time passes.

So you can't get a good picture of what's REALLY happening for a long time.

But PALM just gave us some interesting hints on PAST activities; they said the rebates streaming in hadn't met their expectations so their "Average Selling Prices" reported this time around were higher, so their results looked better than they expected. And they're expecting the NEXT results to be horrible to the point of going negative possibly.

Hey! Maybe they finally ran out of already-sold-in TREO 650s that they could give away FREE with a rebate to increase their sold-through numbers (if you want, you can change that '5' up there to an '8')!

Time...it's a bummer...and it can hide the REAL reality really well.

========

(*) Some numbers get recomputed "periodically" - that's a nice way of saying the CURRENT instantiation of "the numbers" reflects what was, not what is and, even when the numbers are recomputed, they'll STILL reflect what was, not it. Time, once again, rears its ugly head.

One final note on time versus reality and whether or not there are TREO-killers already out there - one of the most important things about financial reporting is noting what IS and what ISN'T mentioned. If you look over the transcript for the latest financial report out of PALM you'll see tons and tons of words about sell-THROUGH - the sale of devices to end-customers.

And you'll find next to nothing about sell-IN - sale of devices to those who sell devices - THE manner in which PALM actually makes money and THE venue in which the effect of the competition WILL be seen.

Now I'm going to bed. If there isn't at least a page of hate posts from Apple fans when I check in tomorrow I'm going to be very disappointed...

Not many, considering that (with contract) you can get a Treo 680 for free, a 750 for $199 and a 755 for $279. Of course, it's bad news if these price cuts don't increase sales enough to make up for the smaller margins, but are selling more of them.

I don't believe that the Treo pricing matters anymore. It's too late for Palm. Palm has had to slash prices in an effort to maintain sales, but this is a double-edged sword. First of all, wealthier consumers are going to choose better-designed devices like Apple's JesusPhone whether or not the Treo is significantly cheaper than the jPhone. Secondly, lower prices for Treos means lower revenues for Palm. For a company that relies on Treos to generate 80% of its income, discounting Treos is a recipe for disaster. (Of course, if Palm DOESN'T discount the Treos then they won't sell at all and revenues will fall even further. Catch-22.)

We've seen plenty of Treo-killers, from the laughable Q to the E61. None has yet managed to unseat it. iPhone will make a dent in consumer sales, but we still don't know how big. (Although that massive launch has to be making Palm nervous. Some reports are saying they've sold 700,000 now...)

Wrong again, Timmmmmmmmay. The competition that we've seen over the past year have done significant damage to Palm's bottom-line:

- Motorola Q: The combination of a low price, a big-name handset supplier, significant press, a Treo-like keyboard and high initial sales scared the living daylights out of Palm. The company has now had to rethink how it prices its devices and from now on will have to accept lower profits in order to avoid stagnant sales.

- Samsung Blackjack: Samsung starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Just needed Wi-Fi + better keyboard.

- Nokia E61/62: Nokia starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Arguably a more functional device than any Treo ever released.

- Blackberry Pearl: The (non-brick) phone that replaced (brick-like) Treos as the executive phone du jour. Devastating blow for Palm.

- Blackberry Curve: Further pain to be inflicted.

- Blackberry Pearl 2: The coup de grace for Palm that finishes what the jPhone started.

Don't believe me? Come back to this thread in 3 months (after Palm releases the current quarter's financial statement) and see which one of us was right.

TVoR

- Samsung Blackjack: Samsung starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Just needed Wi-Fi + better keyboard.

- Nokia E61/62: Nokia starting to get serious about the smartphone = smaller piece of the pie for Palm. Arguably a more functional device than any Treo ever released.

- Blackberry Pearl: The (non-brick) phone that replaced (brick-like) Treos as the executive phone du jour. Devastating blow for Palm.

- Blackberry Curve: Further pain to be inflicted.

- Blackberry Pearl 2: The coup de grace for Palm that finishes what the jPhone started."

And yet, here you are again, posting comments on a PALM fan site. Makes me wonder. did I mention this is a PALM fan site?

BTW, TVOR, this is a PALM fan site. =)

The Q was a major dent, yet somehow Palm wasn't able to maneuver its hardware product design fast enough for this.

Samsung was seen a mile away by everyone, but I don't think any are taking them seriously just yet (I'd wager another model refresh will do the trick just fine).

The E61/E61 was Nokia's version of "hello, guess who's coming to dinner." THe E61i was their shot, and its a good one, too bad corporate IT-types don't see it yet. I'd wager even that the next iteration of this would be a real Treo-coffin nail.

The BB Pearl did hurt. Though I have seen many give up a Treo for one and go back not long after. If the hardware design issues could be cleaned up in Peral 2, then that's a nail. A big one because consumers and IT-depts will run at it.

The Curve is good, but hasn't hit its stride yet. I'd give it a few months before [me] making a call on it. It is one of the many directions the Treo should have been though.

the iPhone swooped everyone (except Samsung, and to some extent Nokia). The expectations are eye-candy and functionality. Heck, just this morning I was on my 680 wondering not so much why the hardware isn't there, but why the UI isn't. FooFighter did an article some time back about a UI overhaul that could hve been done whether a new OS or not. Its a shame that it hasn't been done. I do think that part of the delay of Palm OS II is UI related, the rest is advanced networking abilities related. Nevertheless, I'm borderline on the side of TVOR of thinking that Palm might not be an appendage this time next year, in Ed Colligan's words, "[they] just have not executed well."

That all being said, there honestly seems only one developer in the Palm OS world seeing that GUI makes a difference (GX5). If I am developing any programs for the Palm OS, I'd put the UI thru them and let them play -- a lot.

I also find it highly disconcerting that this review was one part correct, and another part missed the picture of the iPhone. The iPhone did not attest to do anything but be the best iPod and ad cellular/Internet to the equasion. If this were the real issue (it is for many consumers in the mobile device market not named techies), then the Treo has been roundly trumped on merit of integration and flow of use. That's not something that 3rd party apps should address, nor something that buttons should attest to; that is product design philosophy. And if that is truly what has been lacking with the Treo since the Handspring merger, then yes, the death of Palm is a merited topic to [pre]eulogize.

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antoinerjwright.com

BTW, TVOR, this is a PALM fan site. =)

As always, thanks for sharing, retrospooty. You don't work for Palm, now do you? Of course not!

TVoR

Thanks, 'Toine.

The Q was a major dent, yet somehow Palm wasn't able to maneuver its hardware product design fast enough for this.

It's amazing that palm couldn't see the Motorola Q coming. I guess Hawkins et. al. thought the Treo actually had some special secret sauce that even the biggest handset manufacturers couldn't figure out. Very stupid + arrogant. Palm is so used to fleecing customers with its PDA-originated "incremental upgrade" business strategy that it appears to have become physically impossible for the company to fix that diseased corporate milieu and actually design good new products. In the tech world it's "Innovate or die". We're seeing what is happening to Palm now because it has failed to innovate.

Samsung was seen a mile away by everyone, but I don't think any are taking them seriously just yet (I'd wager another model refresh will do the trick just fine).

The Blackjack was just a (half-hearted) first attempt at a Treo clone by Samsung. When they get serious, the results can be devastating. I feel almost ALL of Samsung's current phones are crap by the way, including the A920 I picked up last year. But this is the same company that produced the i500 5 YEARS AGO - still the phone I use daily and easily the best cellphone I have EVER used. Imagine a Blackjack made to the same quality standard as the i500 and with Wi-Fi, EVDO, etc. Poor Palm won't know what hit them.

The E61/E61 was Nokia's version of "hello, guess who's coming to dinner." THe E61i was their shot, and its a good one, too bad corporate IT-types don't see it yet. I'd wager even that the next iteration of this would be a real Treo-coffin nail.

The E61 and the (Wi-Fi crippled) E62 embarass my Treo 700p. If it wasn't for the software I'm addicted to (DateBk 5, HandyShopper, DiddleBug, Ultrasoft Money and a few specialty apps) and Sprint's ultra cheap EVDO pricing + excellent voice quality (with free roaming onto Verizon with my SERO plans!) I would have looked at getting an E61 last year.

The BB Pearl did hurt. Though I have seen many give up a Treo for one and go back not long after. If the hardware design issues could be cleaned up in Peral 2, then that's a nail. A big one because consumers and IT-depts will run at it.

The BlackBerry Pearl was a way to expand the smartphone market to include non-smartphone users. Releasing a device like the Pearl seemed to be an obvious progression to EVERYONE except Palm's management. Why couldn't Palm have released a similar device complete with ChatterEmail 2 YEARS AGO?

The Curve is good, but hasn't hit its stride yet. I'd give it a few months before [me] making a call on it. It is one of the many directions the Treo should have been though.

At least BlackBerry is giving consumers a variety of form factors to choose from, unlike Palm with it's "any phone you want as long as it's almost identical to the 4 year old Treo 600" mentality. Had Palm released a couple of other form factors (e.g. a tiny Samsung i500-style clamshell and a small dumbphone-sized candybay shaped device) they could have broadened the Treo's appeal beyond the current market of people willing to carry ugly, heavy bricks. Look at what Nokia is doing with its tiny 3 ounce 6120 Classic: http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Nokia-6120-Classic-Review-review-r_1766.html

the iPhone swooped everyone (except Samsung, and to some extent Nokia). The expectations are eye-candy and functionality. Heck, just this morning I was on my 680 wondering not so much why the hardware isn't there, but why the UI isn't. FooFighter did an article some time back about a UI overhaul that could hve been done whether a new OS or not. Its a shame that it hasn't been done. I do think that part of the delay of Palm OS II is UI related, the rest is advanced networking abilities related. Nevertheless, I'm borderline on the side of TVOR of thinking that Palm might not be an appendage this time next year, in Ed Colligan's words, "[they] just have not executed well."

I still feel a simple update like giving users a tabbed launcher like Launcher X (which could optionally be turned off) would revitalize Palm while remaining true to the "Zen of Palm" that died so many years ago. Also, Palm should already have licensed + integrated best-of-breed apps into the OS and outsourced the job of making everything LOOK pretty to companies/codemonkeys that actually know what they're doing + let go 50% of Palm's current staff. Imagine a Treo that OUT OF THE BOX came with Chatter Email, Directory Assistant, Weatherman, Resco Backup, GoogleMaps, VideoHound, HandyShopper, Resco Viewer, TCPMP, Resco Explorer, TealLock, Uninstall Manager YAUC, Comet, etc. We already know Palm doesn't give a rat's a$$ about developers, so they could easily have played hardball and negotiated ultra-cheap pricing for these apps. (Any developers that refused to license their apps to Palm would likely lose ALL sales if Palm licensed a competing app and released it for "free". Had Palm done all this in 2004/5 the iPhone would not be making them look so silly in 2007.

That all being said, there honestly seems only one developer in the Palm OS world seeing that GUI makes a difference (GX5). If I am developing any programs for the Palm OS, I'd put the UI thru them and let them play -- a lot.

I still think Palm shoud focus on ease of use, functionality, speed and reliability rather than going for pure fluff. Of course, as the BRILLIANT GoogleMaps showed, it's possible to have it ALL - even under creaky old PalmOS 5.

I also find it highly disconcerting that this review was one part correct, and another part missed the picture of the iPhone. The iPhone did not attest to do anything but be the best iPod and ad cellular/Internet to the equasion. If this were the real issue (it is for many consumers in the mobile device market not named techies), then the Treo has been roundly trumped on merit of integration and flow of use. That's not something that 3rd party apps should address, nor something that buttons should attest to; that is product design philosophy. And if that is truly what has been lacking with the Treo since the Handspring merger, then yes, the death of Palm is a merited topic to [pre]eulogize.

Well put, twizza. For Palm - in 2007!!! - to be expecting users to hunt around for apps to give their latest hardware functionality that should be present out of the box illustrates the arrogance, laziness and stupidity still rampant at Palm. Now that the "jPhone" is showing users what can come in an integrated package, Palm is being exposed for the fraud it is. To fix these problems at Palm will require a COMPLETE change in how they do business. Based on the jaw-dropping number of mistakes Palm has made with its not-even-yet-released FOOLeo, it seems obvious that the current management STILL has not yet learned from the past decade's worth of Palm's corporate mistakes. The funny thing is that despite all this, Palm is STILL in business and STILL has an outside chance of turning things around. If Apple is smart they will kick Palm when it's down by quickly integrating prettier-looking clones of the best Palm apps into the jPhone - all for "free", adding proper "business-friendly" push email, adding MMS/video recording/remote file access + streaming/remote desktop control/and other useful software updates to the jPhone package. Apple wisely realizes that with each announced update, people will feel they are getting an even better "value" for their money, increasing goodwill towards Apple. (Remember how Apple dramatically announced the all-glass screen and the upgraded battery life? As if they didn't know these were part of the package all along? "Svengali" Steve Jobs is the most brilliant snake oil salesman slithering the planet today...

TVoR

- Add 3G radio
- Open platform up to third party developers (can you imagine how many developers are chomping at the bit for a piece of the iPhone software market?)
- Add Microsoft Office-compatible apps
- Add voice dialling
- Improve Bluetooth implementation
- Add memory expansion
- Offer device on other networks
- Add instant messaging app
- Add VPN/VNC app
- Add MMC capability
- Add voice calling
- Add user-removeable battery
- Add cut & paste
- Add remote data access/streaming apps

The question is whether Apple even NEEDS to do ANY of this to ensure the jPhone keeps selling strongly. That's the $30 million question Palm is waiting to be answered...

TVoR

I wonder how many FOOLeos Palm wiil be able to sell this year? Seriously. 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? What developers will care about such a TINY market... unless the FOOLeo's PalmLinux = the next generation PalmOS. Bwahahahahaha!

The sheep are waiting, Mr. Colligan. Chop chop!

TVoR

looking at all the jPhone's Version 1.0 deficiencies, it appear that most of them can be solved fairly easily:
.
.
- Add VPN/VNC app

jPhone 1.0 does come with VPN, one less problem to solve.

I don't see how. You must always navigate back to the Home screen in order to switch apps, even the major ones like phone and messaging. As for integration - both the Treo and the iPhone can parse phone numbers from web pages, messages, emails, maps etc. iPhone's built in web browser and media player are unquestionably superior to Palm's out-of-the-box solutions, but their messaging and phone fall short.

(1)Ryan, the mobile version of PIC is really well done. About the only thing missing is being able to navigate the news posts via the number pad.

(2)Freakout says, Phones are not cars
Not only do I disagree with you, but if you have paid any attention to the mobile market from its inception until now, you will see that mobiles not only share the same commodization in terms of technology that autos did in the 20s-40s, but that socially, they have had the same impact everywhere not named the US in similar fashion that cars did. The analogy that was presented might not be totally right, but phones to cars is very much so correct.

(3)Freakout says, I don't see how. You must always navigate back to the Home screen in order to switch apps, even the major ones like phone and messaging.
You had to do the same thing with Treos until the 680 and 700 models too. Nothing new there. In terms of simplfying UI concepts, this is smart, albeit not necessarly easy for those used to docks and start bars.

(4)TVOR says, The question is whether Apple even NEEDS to do ANY of this to ensure the jPhone keeps selling strongly. That's the $30 million question Palm is waiting to be answered
They do need to do it, and mainly because the mobile OS/device market is by no means the slow beast that the desktop market is. Apple was very smart in making aspects of the iPhone modular (browser, some UI, and other components) so that firmware updates could take care of this. The question isn't when others will realize, but how they will respond. Nothing that I know for sure, but I do believe that both Palm and MS are looking for a more modular approach to their new OSes. I am not so sure that Access is however. And Symbian needs to be built from scratch to do so. Advantage Apple here.

Oh yea, according to AT&T, over 1 million iPhones were activated (not sold, Activated). That is dang near better than the RAZR. Even with 10% returns (normal for this kinda of device) that is simply incredible and speaks to what solid marketing will do to any product.

(5)TVOR says, f it wasn't for the software I'm addicted to (DateBk 5, HandyShopper, DiddleBug, Ultrasoft Money and a few specialty apps) and Sprint's ultra cheap EVDO pricing + excellent voice quality (with free roaming onto Verizon with my SERO plans!) I would have looked at getting an E61 last year.
Careful, you are mixing the 3rd party argument with a prodcut design and implementation one. Here is where your points can be easily confused by others who don't or won't understand that while you do believe in much of what the Palm OS can do, you don't believe in getting less than what you feel equals value.

(6)TVOR says, The BlackBerry Pearl was a way to expand the smartphone market to include non-smartphone users. Releasing a device like the Pearl seemed to be an obvious progression to EVERYONE except Palm's management. Why couldn't Palm have released a similar device complete with ChatterEmail 2 YEARS AGO?
Product design philosophy is something that a visionary has to make you believe in. It bleeds into execution and belief that something can and will do well despite the inability of others to see it. Apple's chief desinger and chief evangelist, is also the same person that makes everyone believe he knows best. Jobs's ability to have that kind of managerical structure is also what makes Apple's products just work, and RIM has a similar (up to a point) kind of structure that has allowed for this to come about. I know some of Palm's insides, but not sure as to whether everyone believes in the vision, or if they are believing in it, just not sure how to say it -- which is hard to do for some.

(7)TVOR says, I still think Palm shoud focus on ease of use, functionality, speed and reliability rather than going for pure fluff. Of course, as the BRILLIANT GoogleMaps showed, it's possible to have it ALL - even under creaky old PalmOS 5.
You know, I totally agree. Google Maps is one sick application. I have no clue who designed it within Google, but they really did make a functional, fun, and well done application for Palm OS. There is not that much polish on any Palm OS applicaiton IMO -- else I'd be using it.

(8)TVOR says, Now that the "jPhone" is showing users what can come in an integrated package, Palm is being exposed for the fraud it is.
No, not a fraud. Palm et al are being shown that the barrier for what people expect has now gone up. I have preached enough that hardware increments is not innovation, innovation is challenge perceptions and raising the bar on performance, execution, accessiblity, and usability. If a mobile device maker cannot do that every few product design cycles, they tend to have an issue of not being relevant any more. Much like Foo's iPhone article talking about how people asked him why he still has a Palm OS Treo, the lack of refinement and real innovation makes people believe that you aren't growing and maturing. I know that Palm knows this, and hope that they are making the needed changes in their pipeline.

Tis all for now, back to my N95 and 680 (8GB) running :)

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antoinerjwright.com

Actually, that's incorrect: every Treo since the very first 180 has had a dedicated button for the Phone and a dedicated button for Messaging.

Freakout says, Phones are not cars
Not only do I disagree with you, but if you have paid any attention to the mobile market from its inception until now, you will see that mobiles not only share the same commodization in terms of technology that autos did in the 20s-40s, but that socially, they have had the same impact everywhere not named the US in similar fashion that cars did. The analogy that was presented might not be totally right, but phones to cars is very much so correct.

Okay, that was a glib response, but it was a stupid question that was orginally asked. The way people use a car is very different from the way that people use a phone. Valhala's question would have been more accurate if he asked: would I take a car that required me to push a button before I switched on the radio, before I activated the wipers, before I turned on the indicator, before I got in and before I got out?

And surprise, surprise: no, I wouldn't.

Just playing with you, but I've had a night were I am questioning product design philosophy, UI, UX, and mobiles, and I am not liking that I am agreeing with Apple's product on several levels. They aren't five years ahead in the sense of "ooh look at the future," but are five years ahead as in "ooh, look what you should have seen 5 years ago."

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