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Comments on: Palm Cancels the Foleo

Palm Inc LogoPalm CEO Ed Colligan has posted a letter to Palm Customers, Partners and Developers on the official Palm blog. In the post, he states Palm will cancel the Foleo mobile companion product in its current configuration, and will undertake efforts to focus entirely on Palm's next-generation smartphone platform.

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RIP

jca666us @ 9/4/2007 5:33:14 PM # Q
Palm Foleo: 2007 - 2007

Weep weep weep - hey freakout, will you be wearing a black armband to mourn the Foleo's passing?

RE: RIP
freakout @ 9/4/2007 6:47:23 PM # Q
Why would I? They say there will be a Foleo II, and it will be better. May even jutify the $600 price tag. Foleo's biggest problem was its limited software package; this will give Palm time to develop a much more robust offering. And perhaps come up with a better marketing angle.

It's Good News. Duh.

RE: RIP
Gazpacho @ 9/4/2007 6:52:49 PM # Q
Well, at least it's a prudent management move. The most exciting product that Hawkins ever worked on gets cancelled. It's like hell freezing over, although if you read the forecasts correctly, you might have seen it coming.

OK, you didn't really see that coming.

http://foleocentral.blogspot.com

FoleoCentral is the news, opinions & review blog about the Palm Foleo Mobile Companion

RE: RIP
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 7:25:22 PM # Q

Fooleo, We Hardly Knew Ye.



RE: RIP
abosco @ 9/4/2007 8:14:35 PM # Q
Eat crow, freakout:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8621/#136783

This thing was such a flop that even PALM knew it was going to flop. Do you know how horrendous a product has to be to make Palm, the industry leader in alpha Golden Master products, have to cancel it? Beyond belief.

And there will be no Foleo II. This thing was CANCELED, not pushed back. Everything about the initial reports suggested the market would overwhelmingly reject this device.

Just start making PDA's again, Palm.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: RIP
freakout @ 9/4/2007 8:27:23 PM # Q
Weren't you the one who had a go at me for "defending a dying platform" awhile back, abosco? And you're telling Palm to get back into the PDA biz? Something like the Foleo is a much smarter idea than that - try something new, rather than continually milking something that has been well and truly crushed by the smartphone.

And that post you linked to? Was about how Engadget need to get over themselves. If you think Palm's decision was based solely on their editorial, you're nuts.

RE: RIP
nybble @ 9/4/2007 9:17:48 PM # Q
I think it's clear that there was no man behind the mask for the Foleo - it was a product that very few people wanted, it may have made sense for some but certainly was not revolutionary nor was it ever going to be a mass market product - the hit that Palm needed it to be. Sure it's good that they cancel it before they're saddled with a new product, but really, was it not obvious that it was a bad idea to stop developing the Treo in order to develop this thing that's a solution looking for a problem? Sure the cost is only $10 million now, but what was the opportunity cost they got hit with over the years this thing must have been in development? The cost of having a product line that was clearly on top of the market and well ahead of it's competitors to now having a dieing line that gets less and less respect every day? Sigh.

Anyhow, naturally I blogged at a little bit of length about it. :)

http://tinyurl.com/ys6og3

<http://comments.deasil.com/> that is my tech blog. There are many like it, but that one is mine.

RE: RIP
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 9:32:26 PM # Q

nybble - nice article.

RE: RIP
jca666us @ 9/4/2007 10:12:44 PM # Q
>Why would I? They say there will be a Foleo II, and it will be better.

And you believe it? Tell me, do you still believe in Santa Claus?

>May even jutify the $600 price tag.

One would hope that whatever they release does "jutify" oh wait, I mean *JUSTIFY* the price they put on it.

>Foleo's biggest problem was its limited software package

There were bigger problems - software was one, poor market research was another.

>This will give Palm time to develop a much more robust offering.
>And perhaps come up with a better marketing angle.

I'm sure if Palm could market smoke they would...nowadays you need a compelling product to market.

>It's Good News. Duh.

It's bittersweet news. Good in the sense that palm realizes there is no market this overpriced crap.

However bad news as it (again) demonstrates Palm's inability to execute on an *announced* product.

More worrisome is the software issues behind Foleo's cancellation.

RE: RIP
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 6:38:18 AM # Q
>Instant-on is a great feature that is sorely undervalued by many. If the Foleo can match it with snappy
>software, on a crappy low-speed ARM and hardly and RAM, that really is an impressive achievement, and bodes
>well for any future handheld OS. (that's assuming, of course, Palm are going to use some version of the Foleo
>OS on handhelds next year)

>It's overpriced for the meagre hardware it runs on, I agree. But it's innovative in a way that most hardware-
>driven upgrades are not. I think it deserves more respect than it's been getting.

Freak, the quote is from you. You now say cancelling the Foleo is a "good thing" yet you were extolling Foleo's nonexistent virtues a few days ago.

Take off your blinders and stop being a Palm apologist.

RE: RIP
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 6:50:04 AM # Q
> ...More worrisome is the software issues behind Foleo's
> cancellation...

That =was= a worry, I believe.

PALM has outsourced just about everything w.r.t. software development now. All they need to do (all, he says...) is get someone on board who has a handle on managing software development by outsource entities.

RE: RIP
freakout @ 9/5/2007 6:58:06 AM # Q
That quote, jca666us, came from a post where I quoted an interview with Aussie Linux kernel developer Con Klivas. In that interview, he said:

We're all aware of what became the defacto operating system standard [Windows] at the time. As a result there was no market whatsoever for hardware that didn't work within the framework of that operating system. As a defacto operating system did take over, all other operating system markets and competition failed one after the other and the hardware manufacturers found themselves marketing for an ever shrinking range of software rather than the other way around.

Hardware has since become subservient to the operating system. It started around 1994 and is just as true today 13 years later. Worse yet, all the hardware manufacturers slowly bought each other out, further shrinking the hardware choices. So now the hardware manufacturers just make faster and bigger versions of everything that has been done before. We're still plugging in faster CPUs, more RAM, bigger hard drives, faster graphics cards and sound cards just to service the operating system. Hardware driven innovation cannot be afforded by the market any more. There is no money in it. There will be no market for it. Computers are boring.

......

So Linux was created to service the home desktop personal computer, and the PC is here to stay. For those who were looking for some excitement and enjoyment in using their computer, the defacto operating system just doesn't cut it. We want to tinker, we want control, we want power over everything. Or alternatively we believe in some sort of freedom or some combination of the above. So we use Linux. That is certainly how I got involved in Linux; I wanted something to use on the home desktop PC.

However, the desktop PC is crap. It's rubbish. The experience is so bloated and slowed down in all the things that matter to us. We all own computers today that were considered supercomputers 10 years ago. 10 years ago we owned supercomputers of 20 years ago.. and so on. So why on earth is everything so slow? If they're exponentially faster why does it take longer than ever for our computers to start, for the applications to start and so on? Sure, when they get down to the pure number crunching they're amazing (just encode a video and be amazed). But in everything else they must be unbelievably slower than ever.

Computers of today may be 1,000 times faster than they were a decade ago, yet the things that matter are slower.

The standard argument people give me in response is 'but they do such more these days it isn't a fair comparison'. Well, they're 10 times slower despite being 1000 times faster, so they must be doing 10,000 times as many things. Clearly the 10,000 times more things they're doing are all in the wrong place.

I think he's dead on the money. Palm built, from the ground up, a customised implementation of Linux that was instant-on and instant-off. Applications opened instantly. No need to save documents etc. To my mind, this is very impressive. Certainly more so than "Hey, here's yet-another-laptop - but it has a 2.3 instead of 2.1 ghz processor! Wow, awesome!"

If Palm proved anything with the Foleo, it's that they indeed have the talent and the capability to create a modern OS with innovative features that no-one else is attempting. They simply don't have the resources to support seperate OS's for both the Foleo and their smartphones. That, and the extraordinarily negative reaction it received, led to the decision to cancel it. It's a smart business move for Palm.

Thus, this decision is good news. It means that Palm will be able to focus all their talents on one platform, instead of splitting their attention across two. It also means they'll be able to take their idea of applications that sync across devices much further than the puny email syncing we saw with the Foleo. And it also means that if there is a Foleo II, they're going to have had a lot more time to put in the software that the original should have included.

It's quite disappointing that they've had to cancel it. But if one examines the decision objectively, then one can only conclude that it was the right call. It's good news. It would have been bad news if the Foleo OS was what was going to appear on smartphones in '08 - it would have meant there were serious problems. But since they've now explained that these were two seperate platforms, cancelling the Foleo seems an eminently sensible idea, both from a business perspective and for Palm's customers.

But you're not really interested in a real discussion. You just want a flame war. Sorry, not taking the bait today.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 7:56:52 AM # Q
>>>It would have been bad news if the Foleo OS was what was going to appear on smartphones in '08 - it would have meant there were serious problems.

WTF? In one para you praise the Foleo, then you condemn it. Which is it?

RE: RIP
freakout @ 9/5/2007 8:04:23 AM # Q
If the Foleo OS was the future smartphone OS, and Palm gave the first product to feature it the axe, then that would be a seriously ominous sign.

On the other hand, if Foleo's OS was an entirely seperate project, then cancelling it makes sense: Palm is a small company with limited resources and supporting & developing two seperate operating systems is a lot to handle.

There's no contradiction here: Foleo's a great idea, but version 1.0 was a misfire. It's not that hard to see both sides of the coin.

RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:16:54 AM # Q
Will you STFU? You are a frikkin RETARD and NOTHING you say ever makes any damned sense!

For you, it's a terrible blow. Now you don't get that Happy Meal as payment for "Blow By Blow: 10 Reasons Why The Foleo Is Better Than All Other Notebooks."

RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 9:47:26 AM # Q
the desktop PC is crap. It's rubbish. The experience is so bloated and slowed down in all the things that matter to us. We all own computers today that were considered supercomputers 10 years ago. 10 years ago we owned supercomputers of 20 years ago.. and so on. So why on earth is everything so slow? If they're exponentially faster why does it take longer than ever for our computers to start, for the applications to start and so on? Sure, when they get down to the pure number crunching they're amazing (just encode a video and be amazed). But in everything else they must be unbelievably slower than ever.

That's a great quote that really gets to the heart of the matter. We have really low expectations of how our PCs perform. They do a ton of great stuff but they do it in a way that is slow, clunky and indirect. The reason for this is that we demand that our PCs be general purpose tools that can (if we choose) do just about anything. That forces a lot of complexity into them. What Palm has done is create a computer that puts simplicity and the performance of the most important mobile tasks as the number one things to optimize, much as they did with the Pilot. This idea is a very good one and it's NOT going away.

Tim's right: Palm needs to have a single, unified, Palm-branded software platform. If Palm has a better idea for how its smartphone OS needs to be done (for example, one that will better meet what the carriers are demanding today) then Foleo needed to be pulled from the market until it could be reloaded with that new OS. Otherwise, Palm would be saddled with three platforms, two of which were up to them to maintain and extend. Likewise third parties that wanted to support Palm products would be developing against three different SDKs, which takes a pretty big commitment and limits Palm's ecosystem.

There are a few other reasons why rushing the Foleo to market wasn't ideal for Palm. As people have pointed out, a lot of your initial expectations of a device that looks like the Foleo is that it has a big library of software. Even if it addresses a serious pain point with just a few apps it's naive to think people are going to "get" that in the immediate way you need to market the product. I expect that when the Foleo is relaunched there will already be a sizeable software library ready because apps that developers created for the new Treos will be easy to tweak to run on Foleo.

What else has been seriously missing in the build-up to release of Foleo? How about announcement of BlackBerry support? I'm not sure how serious Palm is about this, but if they really plan for Foleo to work with other smartphones they should have BlackBerry in their pocket at launch time. That would probably require partnering with RIM to develop a sync module that runs on the device and has access to BB's email store, but it would be huge if they can do it before the re-release. The buzz would be quite a bit more positive, I think.

There's one other thing to think about. The Foleo team really nailed a lot of things that no other mobile Linux project I know of has done. Their OS is so much snappier than Maemo or the Zaurus operating systems and it seems to have very good power management. These low-level traits are critical to Palm's smartphone platform as well. So here was Palm, whose primary business is smartphones, with most of its best Linux talent tied up on the Foleo team. That's a problem.

All this time I've been wondering why Foleo was being rushed to market. I assumed it was the marketing department thinking Palm desperately needed a new product. That still could be true, but I wonder if it wasn't also that Palm needed its smartest people like Ben Combee over on the smartphone project and had to wait for them to get the core functionality and APIs of the Foleo done before they could do that. When it looked like they weren't going to be able to get Foleo where it needed to be without those people and their internal smartphone development was at risk of slipping without them, they had to make a tough decision.

Anyway, I'm really disappointed, but not just because Foleo has been put on a back burner. It's because despite the factors just mentioned it really was a sweet little system. The team that developed it deserves some respect.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 9:52:50 AM # Q
Settle down, Mike. And spare us the SHIFT key, please. When you see those drops of saliva starting to spatter your screen it's time to back away.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 10:00:49 AM # Q
>>>and it's NOT going away.

Let he who is without Shift cast the first stone.

Now STFU about it.

And you still haven't answered my question about the disposition of your Foleo. Do you get to keep it?

And now that it's dead, can you say what software you had planned for it? Anything for consumers, or just for business?

RE: RIP
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 10:29:18 AM # Q
>I think he's dead on the money. Palm built, from the ground up, a customised
>implementation of Linux that was instant-on and instant-off. Applications opened
>instantly. No need to save documents etc. To my mind, this is very impressive.
>Certainly more so than "Hey, here's yet-another-laptop - but it has a 2.3 instead of >2.1 ghz processor! Wow, awesome!"

Freak, we have no idea how Foleo worked because it was cancelled. It's not impressive because it hasn't been released.

The idea of Foleo was interesting - however it was far from compelling.

>If Palm proved anything with the Foleo, it's that they indeed have the talent and
>the capability to create a modern OS with innovative features that no-one else is
>attempting. They simply don't have the resources to support seperate OS's for both
>the Foleo and their smartphones. That, and the extraordinarily negative reaction it
>received, led to the decision to cancel it. It's a smart business move for Palm.

If Palm proved anything with the Foleo, it's that they do not have the talent and
the capability to create a modern OS with innovative features.

>And it also means that if there is a Foleo II, they're going to have had a lot more
>time to put in the software that the original should have included.

Freak, now you change your story? Earlier you were crowing about Foleo II, now you've relegated to "if there is a Foleo II" - maybe there is hope for you.

>But since they've now explained that these were two seperate platforms, cancelling
>the Foleo seems an eminently sensible idea, both from a business perspective and for
>Palm's customers.

Likely they're making this up as they go along.

>But you're not really interested in a real discussion. You just want a flame war.
>Sorry, not taking the bait today.

No flame war, I'm just calling you out on your hypocrisy. Foleo was a bad idea before it was ever announced!

RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 11:11:21 AM # Q
>>>If Palm proved anything with the Foleo, it's that they do not have the talent and
the capability to create a modern OS with innovative features.

Huh? It was Linux. And even according to Beers, it was better than that crap Maemo Nokia shat out. (For an N800-kisser like him to admit that made an impression on me.)

Well, I better stop replying for now and get the hell to writing my blog stuff...

RE: RIP
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 11:52:22 AM # Q
It was a linux palm were customizing...

Let me rephrase, "They do not have the skill to customize a modern OS"

RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 12:11:07 PM # Q
"They do not have the skill to customize a modern OS"

Well, I've been using it for a few weeks and I can tell you they most certainly do. And that the Foleo OS is a lot more than just a tweaked Linux distro. They dispensed with X Windows entirely, something neither Nokia nor ACCESS has dared do, and designed a lighter, faster UI and app framework that sets a new standard for others to match. I agree that the proposed release was hampered by the fact that it was apparently rushed to market with little time to develop a lot of good software around it (among other problems). And people can have honest disagreement about the merit of the concept since it never was tested in the market. But I can't look back on my experience as a Foleo user and say that I think the cancellation has anything to do with a failure on the part of the development team.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 12:17:13 PM # Q
mikecane wrote:
And you still haven't answered my question about the disposition of your Foleo. Do you get to keep it?

I don't know yet. I hope so.

You asked about my software plans. My plan is to develop a "mind mapping" application: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_Mapping. I also was working on porting a Java SDK to the Foleo. I may still do this just for my own use.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIP
abosco @ 9/5/2007 12:57:56 PM # Q
>>They dispensed with X Windows entirely, something neither Nokia nor ACCESS has dared do, and designed a lighter, faster UI and app framework that sets a new standard for others to match.

It doesn't set a new standard for others to match because IT'S NEVER GOING TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY!

The hypocrisy that others have spoken of is this - for the past few months, I had to hear bullshit about how the Foleo is going to be so useful and will be a great compliment to the Treo. Now that Palm axed it, the same people are saying it was a wise move.

Know what that means? It means you don't form your own damn opinion. You take whatever Palm says as fact. If they say you need a smartphone companion, then you suppose your Treo really is lonely. If they say they're canceling the device a mere weeks from release, then you claim it's a smart business idea.

Wake up. This is why you guys are on the ass-end of every joke on this site. A few of you are so far beyond "fanboy" that "cultist" couldn't even do you justice. Palm is a shitty company. The quicker you move onto other platforms, the quicker you realize how disgustingly limited the Palm OS really is. It may have been useful a few years ago, but it is completely outdated today.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 1:40:37 PM # Q
Sorry bosco, but the issue being discussed was one about Palm's competence and the fact is that whether Foleo is released or not has no bearing on the fact that it's a significant technical achievement.

As for the "forming your own opinion" comment, I can tell you that I personally have been talking to Palm for some time, urging them to get to a situation where the same code can run on both Treo and Foleo. I thought from the start that it was a mistake to fragment Palm's platforms and was actually working on porting a Java language SDK to address the issue. (I may still do that for my own use if they let me keep my Foleo.) In any case, there is no hypocracy in saying on the one hand that the Foleo addresses a real need in the market and is a nice piece of hardware and software, and on the other that it would have been a helluva lot better to have made the decision to consolidate the OS work before announcing the product. Now that Palm is saying that the two platforms are fundamentally different I think Foleo supporters would be foolish to say that Palm should try to support them both rather than committing to one. Saying it's a good decision to cut one of the OS projects doesn't mean that anyone thinks this was the time to make it. The time it should have been made was when Palm brought Paul Mercer in to help them rethink (or re-rethink) their smartphone OS work. I'd love to understand why this wasn't clear to Palm back then.

So thank God Palm didn't release the Foleo if they weren't committed to supporting its OS over the long haul. But damn them to hell for getting this far without knowing they weren't going to support it for the long haul.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 4:14:40 PM # Q
Mind mapping on a unit with no mouse or touchscreen?!

BTW, did you ever try a Bluetooth mouse with the Foleo?!

RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 4:25:57 PM # Q
Foleo has a mouse pointer just like any other laptop, in case you didn't know. But yeah, you'd usually figure using a "track bud" would be less than ideal for mind mapping. Fortunately, Foleo also has some extra navigation keys and a cool rolling scroller that I thought would make it easier for navigating a map without using the mouse pointer. Haven't tried hooking up an external mouse, Bluetooth or otherwise.

But what does this have to do with the subject "RIP"? ;-) Don't tell me... no! Mike?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIP
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 4:46:47 PM # Q
> ...Haven't tried hooking up an external mouse, Bluetooth or otherwise.

Didn't I read somewhere, maybe from Combee, that the Bluetooth was ONLY for syncing?

Er...maybe I'm thinking of this:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1312861&postcount=86

RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 5:24:43 PM # Q
>>>But what does this have to do with the subject "RIP"? ;-) Don't tell me... no! Mike?

Since when do subjects here NOT veer of course?!

Besides, you obviously didn't read this:
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/03/ok-now-the-foleo-scares-me/

More Foleo posts tomorrow on my blog. If my time isn't swallowed like today.

RE: RIP
freakout @ 9/5/2007 5:31:50 PM # Q
The hypocrisy that others have spoken of is this - for the past few months, I had to hear bullshit about how the Foleo is going to be so useful and will be a great compliment to the Treo. Now that Palm axed it, the same people are saying it was a wise move.

Know what that means? It means you don't form your own damn opinion. You take whatever Palm says as fact. If they say you need a smartphone companion, then you suppose your Treo really is lonely. If they say they're canceling the device a mere weeks from release, then you claim it's a smart business idea.

No no no, you big silly. Originally, most people assumed that the Foleo OS was what we were going to see on Palm's smartphones next year. Since we now know that is not the case, Palm's cancelling the Foleo makes sense. It's certainly disappointing - I was really looking forward to trying one out - but it would seem to be the right call.

Wake up. This is why you guys are on the ass-end of every joke on this site. A few of you are so far beyond "fanboy" that "cultist" couldn't even do you justice. Palm is a shitty company. The quicker you move onto other platforms, the quicker you realize how disgustingly limited the Palm OS really is. It may have been useful a few years ago, but it is completely outdated today.

1) You erroneously assume that I (or nice, rational people like Beersie) actually give - to quote the immortal Spider Jerusalem - two tugs of a dead dog's cock what random wankers on the Internet think of my opinion. (I don't.)

2) The real cult is the "Palm is dead" cult. Everyone blathers the same old tired garbage about how the Treo is rubbish, Palm OS sucks etc. How boring to read it everywhere you go...

RE: RIP
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 5:50:08 PM # Q
But Tim.....what about folks like me who say "Palm is Dead" and then in the same breath say "Long live Palm!".

Are we hypocrites, die-hard traditionalists or.......something akin to Amiga users?

:-)

Remember, in the comments area of one particular story last year that I cannot recall, I was accused of being both a Palm apologist AND a paid Microsoft shill (by the good Dr. O)!!



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: RIP
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 7:01:24 PM # Q
> ...something akin to Amiga users...

WAITAMINUTE!

I still own two of those! (one an original "signed" 1000...whatta great computer (with amazingly bad marketing)).

RE: RIP
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 7:27:42 PM # Q
I still have my old Amiga too! (upgraded A500)

The 1000 was (and is) classic...especially in the "signed" edition. It was just a pain to have to load Kickstart from floppy (did they ever release a ROM update card for the 1000 w/ the OS on it?). I actually had its little look-alike sibling in the Commodore line, the C128-D.

I personally always wanted a 2000 but it was just sooo pricey.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: RIP
freakout @ 9/5/2007 7:29:05 PM # Q
But Tim.....what about folks like me who say "Palm is Dead" and then in the same breath say "Long live Palm!".

Are we hypocrites, die-hard traditionalists or.......something akin to Amiga users?

You, sir, are some kind of freakish, bizarre hybrid*! You need to be hunted down and quarantined, so scientists can dissect you and find out what makes you tick.

*Or possibly a Jedi. After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes. ;)

RE: RIP
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 7:38:48 PM # Q
what about folks like me who say "Palm is Dead" and then in the same breath say "Long live Palm!". Are we hypocrites, die-hard traditionalists or.......something akin to Amiga users?

Meh. You just need to get laid, Kris. Barring that, try a good laxative.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIP
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 8:18:12 PM # Q
> ...The 1000 was (and is) classic...especially in the "signed" edition.
> It was just a pain to have to load Kickstart from floppy...

You haven't lived til you've tried to compile and run programs using Aztec C with nothing more than that internal and one external floppy drive. I think I managed a "Hello World" dialog box, maybe some sort of sound generator, that's about it before deep frustration set in. Got real good at swapping floppies, though!

> ...(did they ever release a ROM update card for the 1000 w/ the OS on it?)...

There WAS something, but the motherboard of the 1000 is, I believe, somewhat monolithic - unlike the expandable 2000.

RE: RIP
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:04:57 AM # Q
Oh Christ. I should have known PIC would have a Fifth Column of Amiga owners in it.

Is that computer still ahead of its time? How's that Daphne chip doing these days?

A prime example of how great technology can get squeezed out of a contracting marketplace. (The Atari ST series got squeezed too, but it was just about crap. So I won't bother to mention that because I know the name JACK TRAMIEL raises hackles on the skin on Amiga Cuiltists. LMAO. Yeah, I owned a 1040ST. And I think it was my letter to Tramiel in a trade paper that got him to intro a laser printer for it. The world's *first* laser printer that used the host computer's CPU for image processing! Look at that: Tramiel listened to me. Maybe he should be running Palm.)

RE: RIP
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 9:48:35 AM # Q
The Amigas were great machines, well ahead of their time with hardware-enhanced graphics and sound, multitasking, the whole nine yards.

And really REALLY bad marketing - the infamous Guru Meditation Error could not have been...well...worse. Nothing like those words in BLINKING red staring you in the face when something went wrong. Sheesh.

The Video Toaster lasted well past the Amigas, remaining viable for years.

Good stuff.

Reply to this comment

Wow.

SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 5:36:05 PM # Q
Wow.

Wow.

Reply to this comment

Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?

SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 5:41:19 PM # Q
Just want to repost THIS one - wow:

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8656/#136533

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
pmjoe @ 9/4/2007 10:14:22 PM # Q
August 24 - "Palm has already produced more than enough Foleos [...] It's really not too late for Palm to cancel this disaster. Are they listening?"
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8621/#136584

July 24 - "and hasn't Palm cancelled this yet???"
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8837/#135438

and back on July 12 - "fire Hawkins, cancel the Foleo, and get the Linux Palm OS done"
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135126


RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
pmjoe @ 9/5/2007 2:59:08 PM # Q
I should add, if anyone from Palm does take this site seriously, I'm available for consulting on new devices, OS, GUI, etc. decisions, and can lead software teams too. And, I'm certainly cheaper than the millions it probably cost in the 7 weeks or so since I said you needed to cancel this, and alter your plans to basically what I suggested.

My guess is that Palm has roughly 6 months to come up with something competitive before Apple's iPhone/iPod touch finishes them off.

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 4:15:36 PM # Q
>>>My guess is that Palm has roughly 6 months

No. Six WEEKS.

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
freakout @ 9/5/2007 11:58:00 PM # Q
What a load of crap! Until Apple open up their iToys to third-party applications, they're not going to kill Palm, or MS, or RIM, or anyone. They'll sell by the bucketload, but they won't be able to corner the market.
RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
pmjoe @ 9/6/2007 5:29:06 AM # Q
What a load of crap! Until Apple open up their iToys to third-party applications, they're not going to kill Palm

What's your point? Where did you think I came up with six months from?

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:26:20 PM # Q
No. He has SIX WEEKS. If Palm doesn't pull a rabbit out of its hat -- aside from the Centro -- for Xmas... must I repeat the catchphrase, "They are doomed"?

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 12:32:12 PM # Q
Nah...PALM hasn't relied on the Holiday Season for years.

They sell to carriers, carriers sell to us, none based off of seasonality since phones don't tend to get bought especially heavy during said Season (their words).

See just about any quarterly or annual report out of PALM.

[of course, IF they get back into PDAs that might change...]

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
pmjoe @ 9/6/2007 1:31:25 PM # Q
Mike, freakout is correct here ... Palm still has an advantage in that the Palm platform is open to 3rd party apps. I don't see Apple releasing an SDK in the next 6 weeks (if ever), unless they have something big under their sleeve for the Leopard release. The iPhone/iPod touch not being an open platform still gives Palm a huge advantage, not necessarily in terms of short term sales, but as an opportunity to generate excitement. Also being a closed platform keeps Apple out of a lot of enterprise sales. The opportunity is there, but the door is closing fast. Palm doesn't have to go overboard either: Linux; a graphically appealing GUI; PIM, mail, phone, chat, browser and media applications; developers' APIs to access the PIM data and other user databases; mechanisms for installing/managing apps. Some flexibility in the form factor the apps display/work in. This isn't rocket science ... which is why Palm should've had this 4 years ago. They won't please everyone, but they just need to bite the bullet and do it.

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 1:35:34 PM # Q
PALM management has said repeatedly that a "Linux smartphone" won't be coming until sometime in 2008.
RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 4:32:31 PM # Q
>>>PALM management has said

Typo. Should have been:

PALM mis-management has said

I repeat: Palm has SEX WEEKS.

No seasonality to phone sales? Wow, then Steve Jobs must have been seriously deluded when he mentioned people buying the iPhone as year-end gifts...

I'll take Steve Jobs word over yours. And over Ed "Let me publicly humiliate you, Hawkins" Colligan.

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 4:34:11 PM # Q
Jaysus! Should have put on me glasses.

SEX WEEKS is probably what Palm HAS been having, hence their lack of urgency.

SIX weeks is what I meant and still stand by. Go on, mark your calendars. I'll wait.

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
hkklife @ 9/6/2007 4:37:38 PM # Q
I think there's a vast differnce between "gotta have" flashy phones like the iPhone or the RAZR 2 that people will merrily pony up personal $ for vs. ho-hum products like the Treo line. For most smartphones (not just the Treo) most users are usually issued one by work and/or reimbursed by their employer after buying one out of need (instead of as a gift, emotional impulse purchase etc).



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 4:44:23 PM # Q
> ...I'll take Steve Jobs word over yours...

Then you would be wrong.

Because I don't have a stance one way or anotoer about this other than what PALM has said repeatedly in their SEC filings:

== "...To date, we have not seen significant seasonal variations in
== customer demand for Treo smartphones..."

-- http://tinyurl.com/3bhuwh

Page 11.

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 5:51:48 PM # Q
> ...I repeat: Palm has SEX WEEKS...

Ah, this might explain their turn to Linux:

-- http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/linuxlovingmen.shtml

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 6:38:24 PM # Q
>>>== "...To date, we have not seen significant seasonal variations in
== customer demand for Treo smartphones..."

Yeah, did you ever think that's because they're CRAP?! I don't see anyone here endorsing them as gifts! I can't even endorse the LifeDrive with a CF in it!

RE: Wow. Who could have come up with THIS!?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 7:16:44 PM # Q
Well, for THIS conversation's purposes "why" is unimportant.

Reply to this comment

Not exactly cancelled

cervezas @ 9/4/2007 5:43:15 PM # Q
The announcement says:
Jeff Hawkins and I still believe that the market category defined by Foleo has enormous potential. When we do Foleo II it will be based on our new platform, and we think it will deliver on the promise of this new category. We're not going to speculate now on timing for a next Foleo, we just know we need to get our core platform and smartphones done first.

In other words, Palm's got two Linux platforms right now--one for Foleo and one for smartphones--and they want to have one platform for both with a common SDK and tools. As a developer and as a Palm watcher, I have to say this is a relief (even though I'm disappointed we won't be seeing Foleos entering the market this month). Tough call, but I definitely think it was the smart one--and I *do* think Foleo is a product with great potential.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Not exactly cancelled
analogue wings @ 9/4/2007 5:45:18 PM # Q
In other words, he had to throw Hawkins a bone to stop him resigning.

IIIc -> M105 -> Zire 21 -> Tungsten T2 -> Treo 650
RE: Not exactly cancelled
SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 5:46:02 PM # Q
Pardon me for saying this...but you are SO full of shit it is beyond belief.

I'm beginning to believe Gecko.

Crap.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 5:58:29 PM # Q
So, you'd care to make a prediction, then, SV? :-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Not exactly cancelled
rmhurdman @ 9/4/2007 6:40:32 PM # Q
Palm is so full of marketing spin and smoke and mirrors. Add vapourware to the list.
On a not-altogether-unrelated topic, I think the Asus EeePC might be a success in the marketplace.
It's a wonder no amount of reality can get Colligan to resign.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/4/2007 6:53:50 PM # Q
Pardon me for saying this...but you are SO full of shit it is beyond belief.

Erm, did you read Colligan's post? (I know, I know, you don't make a habit of reading the stuff you comment on...) He specifically states that there will be a Foleo II and that it will be based on their new platform.

Here's what I really want to know: what's going to happen to the leftover Foleos that went out to developers? Is Palm just going to dump them in ladfill, ala` Atari 2600 E.T. cartridges? Why not sell one to me for half the price, Palm? :)

RE: Not exactly cancelled
SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 7:05:28 PM # Q
It's dead, Tim.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/4/2007 7:07:40 PM # Q
Thanks Bones, but I prefer to hedge my bets. ;)
RE: Not exactly cancelled
TooMuch @ 9/4/2007 7:23:24 PM # Q
"It's dead, Tim."

Really SV, do you think that Colligan "lied" when he said there would be a "Foleo II?" I faintly remember you accusing persons who did not take Colligan at his word believing such. :0))

RE: Not exactly cancelled
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 8:32:30 PM # Q
Let's be clear: the fact that this is happening today is sign of an epic screw-up at Palm. When you think that screw-up occurred, and what the nature of the mistake or mistakes was is a matter of speculation. I'll go out on a limb and venture a guess.

Foleo's Linux OS was born at a time when Palm's founders were returning to the helm of a Palm that had divested itself of its own OS supplier. They looked at the risk of an independent PalmSource, and at Palm OS Cobalt, which had huge built-in risks because it was proprietary *everything*, and when they finished saying "Holy crap, the crown jewels are floating around out in the street!" they decided three things.

First, they needed to hedge their OS bets by talking to Microsoft; second they should keep a sharp eye on any acquisition activity directed at PalmSource and be ready to defend against it; and third, they should have a backup plan in case they were unable to keep control of Palm OS, so they wouldn't be forced to go completely over to WinMo. Working on Foleo may have been a way for Palm to implement a back-up OS plan that would fold into product development whether or not Palm lost PalmSource and was stuck developing its own Linux smartphone OS. If PalmSource was acquired and it's Palm Linux became part of some other company's plans, they probably reasoned that the work and in-house expertise developing Foleo could become the basis of a new Palm-controlled smartphone OS.

That's probably how I would have figured it, too. But Palm didn't have the luxury of being dealt their best-case scenario, did they? First they failed to keep PalmSource from being acquired when ACCESS made a whopping bid that Palm couldn't in good conscience toward their shareholders match. Now Plan B had to become Plan A because Palm needed to keep control of their OS destiny if they were to differentiate and survive.

The next problem was, well... we don't know, exactly. But I have ideas.

I think we can surmise that when Palm made a big deal about bringing in Paul Mercer, a guy whose company was famous for architecting the iPod OS as well as that of some of Samsung's mobile device products (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yepp) there was already some big change in the air. Mercer is the kind of guy you'd hire to lead a *new* OS project, not to join one mid-stream that had most of the big architectural issues settled. Palm has remained steady in saying their new smartphone platform will migrate Palm OS developers over to Linux, but I suspect now that the idea that a variant of the Foleo OS was what was needed to meet the needs of the new smartphone market had been rejected by the time Mercer joined the company. I've hinted about why this might be the case from looking at Palm's job postings and Mercer's public statements about mobile operating systems, which I think are in line with the way the wireless carriers look at mobile operating systems, and also with the rise of RIM in Palm's space.

Having used a Foleo for a short time, I can say that the Foleo team made some really important developments on Linux that I expect have already been shared back with smartphone OS team. Most people will probably never know how much they contributed, and as a fellow developer I feel bad for them about that.

I strongly suspect that the feedback that Palm received from their public beta was not the big reason for canceling Foleo 1.0, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I think the reasons Colligan just gave for holding off on Foleo until the new smartphone OS was complete were known to Palm when they hired Mercer early this year, but the Foleo was so close to release (and Palm so needed a new product) that for a time they convinced themselves they could support two new operating systems. Or maybe (heaven help them!) they thought they'd release the Foleo on an OS that they'd subsequently ditch in a year or two. If I'm right that Palm has known for several months that they were starting down a path that would force them to support two in-house Linux distros, then it was the decision to go down that path that was the big mistake. The hit should have been taken right then and there. Foleo should never have been announced in May and the Foleo team should have joined the smartphone developer team at the moment the new vision for the smartphone OS was settled.

Whether I'm right or wrong, it's a very sad day for Palm. Especially sad for Ben Combee and the Foleo team. They really did a great job on the Foleo OS.

For the developers reading this, ask yourself: if the email sync problems reported by Foleo beta testers only showed up after users sent and received hundreds of emails, what sort of problem does that sound like to you? Memory leak, right? Or maybe some kind of buffer overrun triggered by some weirdly configured "who-da thunk-it" email attachment? Fixable, certainly, but a common thing to crop up in C development. A reason to cancel a product release at the last minute? No way.

But supposed you had come to the conclusion that you needed to develop a platform that was not just open, but that would dramatically reduce the risk of those two kinds of bugs, which can live in third party applications, not just ones you control. What features would that platform need to have? (Automatic garbage collection. Strong typing. Having a compiler or runtime environment that checked the bounds of buffers instead of leaving this to the developer.) And what platform do you know that has these features? And what arch competitor of Palm has already made a transition to such a platform, and been extremely successful with it?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not exactly cancelled
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 9:23:31 PM # Q

friggin Beersie. spinning 'til the very end.



RE: Not exactly cancelled
Timothy Rapson @ 9/4/2007 9:47:51 PM # Q
David, David, David. I have read you for years. I always thought you were bright, knowledgable, interesting, fun. I agreed with you a lot more than most posters.

But, your post here is 99.44% lame.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/4/2007 9:52:52 PM # Q
Makes sense to me...
RE: Not exactly cancelled
mikecane @ 9/4/2007 9:58:50 PM # Q
Just about *every* stupid thing makes sense to you. Will you finally GTF out of this place?

RE: Not exactly cancelled
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 10:12:04 PM # Q
I'm disappointed in you, Mr. Rapson. ;-)

Actually, I'd like to hear your own wild-assed guess about what just happened. Do you think Colligan is being a duplicitous SOB and has no intention of delivering the promised Foleo II?

Seems to me, if Palm finally figured that PIC and Engadget understand their market better than Palm themselves, Colligan wouldn't have made such a promise. The only thing worse for Palm than canceling Foleo would be canceling Foleo *twice*. I'd say at this point that Colligan is releasing Foleo II within a year or he's releasing his job.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/4/2007 10:16:12 PM # Q
Here's an idea, Mike: if you have a problem with me, take it up with the editor and operator of the site:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/feedback.asp

Or perhaps go and blog about it or something. Otherwise STFU 'cause I'm not going anywhere.

Love freakout

RE: Not exactly cancelled
jca666us @ 9/4/2007 10:17:54 PM # Q
>Makes sense to me...

LOL - Foleo II is as much vapor as POS II is right now. We'll see what Palm cobbles together next year.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
AdamaDBrown @ 9/5/2007 12:57:54 AM # Q
Folks, forget about a Foleo II. If they weren't willing to release the original after all the work they've put in, the line is dead. Talking about it in the terms of a Foleo II some time down the road is, in my opinion, spin designed to make this look like less of a major u-turn and more a minor course correction. The Foleo II will go quietly to the place where the Mobile Manager line went, along with the "Veld" trademark, and all the other things Palm has talked about but decided not to take any further.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
twrock @ 9/5/2007 1:09:04 AM # Q
Good points there. After a while you really start to wonder if anyone is steering this ship!


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RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/5/2007 1:36:36 AM # Q
It'd be easier to believe that, Adama, if Hawkins hadn't pushed it as "the best idea I've ever had", which leads one to believe that he's going to try and revive the idea in some form or another. Watching him at the D Conference, and in his interview with Ryan, he was very clearly enthusiastic and passionate about the idea. It's hard to believe that he's going to let them murderise his brainchild.

I don't reckon we'll see it again for another year at least - but he's right about it's raison d'etre: smartphones can do most everyday computing tasks, but sometimes you need the larger screen and keyboard. Full-blown laptops have several problems, but the main one is that they are compromised PCs rather than real mobile computers. The best PCs are ultra-capable do-anything machines and are bloated by necessity. The best mobile computers focus on fast access and simple interfaces.

Even if Palm don't have another tilt at it - which IMO is very unlikely - someone else will. The whole laptop category is long-overdue for some new ideas.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
Valhala @ 9/5/2007 2:38:10 AM # Q
Everything was wrong about the Fooleo. the name for one lends it to perjoratives, whoever thoought it up is truly incompetent, the look of the machine was late 80's early 90's nothing 21st century about it. Not to mention more crap for people to carry around. I think folks are getting tired of all the devices consuming their lives and just didn't see a need for another piece of crap to carry around with your cellphone and latte. R.I.P. Fooleo

RE: Not exactly cancelled
sungod @ 9/5/2007 4:20:25 AM # Q
I think Palm realised they couldn't handle 2 OSs on their own a long time ago that's why Wind River was braught in.
But the Wind River deal has fallen through leaving Palm with nowhere to go.

Att Palm:
Foleo = Smartphone companion
T|X = Dumbphone companion
If you think a Foleo will sell and a PDA wont you're out of your mind.
SunGod aka Luigi(AusPUG)
RE: Not exactly cancelled
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 6:43:24 AM # Q
>It'd be easier to believe that, Adama, if Hawkins hadn't pushed it as "the best idea I've ever had", which leads
>one to believe that he's going to try and revive the idea in some form or another. Watching him at the D
>Conference, and in his interview with Ryan, he was very clearly enthusiastic and passionate about the idea. It's
>hard to believe that he's going to let them murderise his brainchild.

I think Hawkins "brainchild" was retarded in both implementation and execution.

>I don't reckon we'll see it again for another year at least - but he's right about it's raison d'etre: smartphones
>can do most everyday computing tasks, but sometimes you need the larger screen and keyboard. Full-blown
>laptops have several problems, but the main one is that they are compromised PCs rather than real mobile
>computers. The best PCs are ultra-capable do-anything machines and are bloated by necessity. The best
>mobile computers focus on fast access and simple interfaces.

Foleo has gone to that PDA graveyard in the sky. Just because the idea has some merit does not make Hawkins "brainfart" a marketable product.



RE: Not exactly cancelled
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 6:58:04 AM # Q
> ...Mobile Manager...

Indeed, PALM only has smartphones and handhelds as subcategories on the home page of their website now. Anyone check out palmthing yet to see how it's changed? (I have not)

> ...But the Wind River deal has fallen through leaving Palm with nowhere to go....

Say what!?

I would think the WindRiver deal is very much in place now and, besides the obvious about the Fooleo, was THE sign that the Fooleo was in deep doo-doo.

I've read nothing yet about the WindRiver deal going sour.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/5/2007 7:58:47 AM # Q
I think Hawkins "brainchild" was retarded in both implementation and execution.

Lol. Let's see... on the one hand, we have the opinion of Jeff Hawkins: very smart guy, self-made millionaire and inventor of two very successful devices, who thinks Foleo is "the best idea I've ever had."

On the other, we have jca666us: anonymous internet troll who thinks it's "retarded".

Who do you trust? Such a tough choice. Can we have some thinking music?

RE: Not exactly cancelled
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 7:59:22 AM # Q
Adama is right. And the blind-to-business-reality Retard again earns his monicker.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/5/2007 8:21:11 AM # Q
Adama may be right - it could be lost in development hell. But if Hawkins does genuinely believe in the concept then I don't think he will let it die. That's all I'm saying.
RE: Not exactly cancelled
nybble @ 9/5/2007 8:56:16 AM # Q
David, it's an interesting comment you wrote, but I just can't agree with a lot of it... You say:

Working on Foleo may have been a way for Palm to implement a back-up OS plan that would fold into product development whether or not Palm lost PalmSource and was stuck developing its own Linux smartphone OS.

But that doesn't make sense on a few levels. The fundamental one was that if they were so worried about losing control of the OS, why did they spin it off in the first place? But more directly, in your best case scenario where PalmSource was not acquired they are now saddled with developing and maintaining a completely different OS and hardware platform. In Colligan's letter he doesn't say word one about taking this OS and using the bulk of it for a new smartphone OS, he says that the smartphone OS would be a separate platform. It doesn't seem like a hedge, just a bad idea.

Palm has remained steady in saying their new smartphone platform will migrate Palm OS developers over to Linux

Yes, they've remained steady for years with no sign of a linux based smartphone. They talk about it, but we never see it.

Something I read on another blog was that - if this was a planned cancelling, that is, if it was something that Colligan had been thinking of for awhile - how could they have just reaffirmed the ship date? If it was so close to happening, they should have just kept mum until a go/no-go decision was made.

I agree with you that it must be terrible for Ben, he was the one person that actually gave me any hope for the company at all.

But you close with your conclusion about the next platform. But, what about that wasn't needed and well known to be needed by Palm for the past several years? Palm has some serious problems and I suspect they all come from incompetence at the highest levels of management and it's not going to turn around until there's new leadership.

<http://comments.deasil.com/> that is my tech blog. There are many like it, but that one is mine.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:20:55 AM # Q
>>>That's all I'm saying.

NO ONE CARES what you say. You're a retard. You never make any sense and you have no credibility at all.

To the above poster: The uncoupling of the OS from Palm took place under different leadership (I use that term loosely!) and under a different marketplace. They really believed they could pull off what Apple failed to do: license an OS just like Microsoft. Trouble is, it was the wrong model to begin with. Microsoft never manufactured PCs and so could afford to be so promiscuous.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
rmhurdman @ 9/5/2007 9:27:10 AM # Q
Palm can't have any credibility now. For Ed to cancel the Foleo mean all of the following must be true:
- Either Jeff knew the Foleo wasn't the best idea he's ever had, but he said it anyway for marketing, or it is the best idea he's got left but it obviously won't fly.
- The marketing guys who recently insisted that the "delay" rumors were false and the Foleo would ship on time were either misled by Ed or they were blowing smoke into the marketplace.
- Ed either knew Foleo was doomed from the beginning but continued to waste resources, or he had no clear vision of what his company should be doing.

So it comes down to: either they're lying or they're incompetent, with the possibility that some people are lying while others are stupid. Will Foleo II come? No matter how you look at it, Palm has lost all credibility. That should extend to their "most faithful" developers that developed apps for the Foleo, their internal development team, their hardware producers (read Taiwanese ODMs), their customers and their shareholders. At least, I know how I feel as a past customer and hobbyist developper: I'm not holding my breath for Foleo II and I'm looking elsewhere for my technology fix.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:57:56 AM # Q
>>>For Ed to cancel the Foleo mean all of the following must be true:

Probably also more than that. At least you have some understanding of business.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 10:38:10 AM # Q
>Lol. Let's see... on the one hand, we have the opinion of Jeff Hawkins: very smart
>guy, self-made millionaire and inventor of two very successful devices, who thinks
>Foleo is "the best idea I've ever had."

>On the other, we have jca666us: anonymous internet troll who thinks it's "retarded".

Don't trust me, obviously Ed Colligan agrees with me - otherwise Foleo would be on store shelves.

Just because Hawkins is a millionaire doesn't mean he's flawless - even Steve Jobs and Bill Gates make mistakes.

Calling Foleo his "best idea ever" reeks of the "Emperor's New Clothes".

Luckily he got called out on it before it was too late!


RE: Not exactly cancelled
twrock @ 9/5/2007 11:19:43 AM # Q
They really believed they could pull off what Apple failed to do: license an OS just like Microsoft.

What?!!!!!! No huge conspiracy theory? You're no fun at all.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Not exactly cancelled
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 11:38:27 AM # Q
nybble wrote:
...if they were so worried about losing control of the OS, why did they spin it off in the first place?

Good question. The decision was made before Colligan was appointed as CEO and he has since said that it wasn't the one he would have made (albeit, an easy thing to say with some hindsight).
In Colligan's letter he doesn't say word one about taking this OS and using the bulk of it for a new smartphone OS, he says that the smartphone OS would be a separate platform. It doesn't seem like a hedge, just a bad idea.

Well, you can see Ben Combee's broad-brushed explanation of how his team's work will fold into the work already underway on the smartphone OS: http://unwiredben.livejournal.com/254565.html When I said I thought the Foleo OS was a hedge, though, I meant that when Palm started developing it a few years ago they probably believed it could be re-purposed fairly directly for Palm's smartphones in a pinch, and that's obviously not what has happened, which is why I said this is an "epic screw-up." It could be a management blunder (if so, I hope the appropriate heads roll) but it could also be Palm getting whacked by carrier requirements, like a couple of Tier 1 operators saying "we're not ready to adopt a native Linux phone platform yet; give us something where the apps are more sandboxed." Even that is something I think Palm might have anticipated, and I fault their strategists for that.

Yes, they've remained steady for years with no sign of a linux based smartphone. They talk about it, but we never see it.

Well, that's slightly unfair. There really hasn't been an official statement (except for hints back in the PalmSource days) that they were moving their smartphones to Linux until this April. They never made a peep about adopting ALP, for example.

Something I read on another blog was that - if this was a planned cancelling, that is, if it was something that Colligan had been thinking of for awhile - how could they have just reaffirmed the ship date?

I definitely wouldn't say this was planned! But I do think that the forces leading up to the fateful decision were well understood several months ago. Palm just hadn't reached a conclusion yet.

But you close with your conclusion about the next platform. But, what about that wasn't needed and well known to be needed by Palm for the past several years? Palm has some serious problems and I suspect they all come from incompetence at the highest levels of management and it's not going to turn around until there's new leadership.

Maybe. And like I said, if it's pure mismanagement I hope the people responsible get axed over this, not excluding Colligan. But understand that being an ODM and a software platform maker for phones puts you in a really vulnerable position when your carrier customers change their requirements on you. Believe me, they have LOTS of requirements, and they are at liberty to change them any time they please. It's altogether possible (I think likely) that Palm got whacked as I described above, and found that the Foleo OS, however good, was not going to meet the requirements of some key wireless carriers as a smartphone OS. Again: Palm should have foreseen this eventuality and designed the Foleo OS to mitigate the risk right from the start. I don't cut them much slack on that, if this is what came down.

I don't credit anyone who says this announcement is because of some fatal flaw in the Foleo development team's work, which looks very good to me. Still less do I credit the idea that Colligan would talk about a Foleo II if was wasn't DAMN sure that Palm would be releasing one when the unified OS is ready. As I said before, he might be able to survive canceling the Foleo once, but not canceling it twice.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not exactly cancelled
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 1:22:07 PM # Q
>>>>What?!!!!!! No huge conspiracy theory? You're no fun at all.

Oh, there's a conspiracy in all this. Just not over licensing the OS. That was a stupid move made years ago. The conspiracy is today over the Foleo.

RE: Not exactly cancelled
freakout @ 9/6/2007 1:53:42 AM # Q
mikecane:
You never make any sense

Your complete lack of English comprehension skills isn't my problem, Mike. Perhaps you need an elementary school refresher course? Or maybe just one in manners. I'd say "I'm sure you've heard of them" - but I'm not.


RE: Not exactly cancelled
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:07:07 AM # Q
You are such a Retard. Did you mother take thalidomide when she was carrying you? She should have taken more!

RE: Not exactly cancelled
PacManFoo @ 9/6/2007 9:50:24 AM # Q
Fooleo once shame on you, Fooleo twice shame on me.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Not exactly cancelled
sungod @ 9/7/2007 2:41:45 AM # Q
I think mikecane is once again chanelling TVoR

BEGONE DEMON

Att Palm:
Foleo = Smartphone companion
T|X = Dumbphone companion
If you think a Foleo will sell and a PDA wont you're out of your mind.
SunGod aka Luigi(AusPUG)

Reply to this comment

Give us Java on Linux, Palm

cervezas @ 9/4/2007 5:56:11 PM # Q
So we're going to have one unified platform for smartphones and companion devices now. Hallelujah! As a developer I am very glad to hear that we'll have the same basic tools and closely related SDKs for both kinds of devices. And as a user I'm glad Palm isn't dividing its focus and trying to support two different Linux platforms.

Here's hoping that Palm has been taking the next important step: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8841/#135632

The only thing I'd rather use and develop for than a micro-laptop running an optimized Linux OS is a micro-laptop running an optimized Java OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 5:59:57 PM # Q
That is: a Foleo and a Palm smartphone *both* running a Java OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
analogue wings @ 9/4/2007 6:09:44 PM # Q
There's no Java spec for PDAs. One was in the works but it got canceled. Throw in a crap JVM, and it adds up to the red carpet rolled out for MS in the enterprise handheld market.

I wonder if the cancellation of handheld java was the direct result of a spat between Sun and Palm?

IIIc -> M105 -> Zire 21 -> Tungsten T2 -> Treo 650

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 6:31:22 PM # Q
There's no Java spec for PDAs. One was in the works but it got canceled.

So you've never heard of BlackBerry OS?

Also, check out the J2ME Connected Device Configuration (CDC) which has been shipping on Nokia Communicators for some time now. Very powerful stuff. Palm would be able to expose the vast majority of the power of a multitasking Linux kernel with a CDC-based Java runtime. Sun themselves are using CDC Java on top of Linux for their upcoming JavaFX Mobile platform.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
dkirker @ 9/4/2007 10:16:50 PM # Q
Please, no Java.

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
sungod @ 9/5/2007 3:02:54 AM # Q
There's no Java spec for PDAs

Then how am I running Opera in my T|X?
And why do all the games on my pfone have a Jave splash screen as they're loading up?

I wonder if the cancellation of handheld java was the direct result of a spat between Sun and Palm?

Palm's J2ME enviroment was made by IBM and was caned because IBM stoped making Palm OS devices.

Att Palm:
Foleo = Smartphone companion
T|X = Dumbphone companion
If you think a Foleo will sell and a PDA wont you're out of your mind.
SunGod aka Luigi(AusPUG)

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
sungod @ 9/5/2007 3:04:15 AM # Q
Sorry I'm having a more dislexic day than usual

phone not pfone

Att Palm:
Foleo = Smartphone companion
T|X = Dumbphone companion
If you think a Foleo will sell and a PDA wont you're out of your mind.
SunGod aka Luigi(AusPUG)

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
pmjoe @ 9/5/2007 10:41:34 AM # Q
J2ME CDC (not CLDC) clearly needs to be at the core of a new device (if not a full blown Java). The key for Palm at this point is to get some devices out there that have the excitement of the iPhone, but with real 3rd party development options. A well implemented and integrated Java VM that ties nicely into the UI is critical to this.

RE: Give us Java on Linux, Palm
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:07:52 AM # Q
Rumor has it the Google Phone is all Java. Have fun.

Reply to this comment

the 3rd party developers

linds @ 9/4/2007 6:08:41 PM # Q
so all the 3rd party developers are out of luck for all the hours they have invested into devloping apps for the folio? doesn't seem right. isn't there someone at the top that should get fired for allowing this to happen and then not happen. didn't they do any research about how this product might do in a real live market place.
I just can't believe somebody's head doesn't roll for this.

RE: the 3rd party developers
TooMuch @ 9/4/2007 6:20:20 PM # Q
lind, you would think that the immediate $10million cost to Palm on this decision surely includes some developer payments.

RE: the 3rd party developers
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:22:42 AM # Q
It's not enough. The developers basically put down money on a bet for a payoff that they believed would be a *multiple* of their investment. How would you like to be betting on a horse race only to have the race canceled on what you believed was a sure thing?

Reply to this comment

Missing Foleo

TooMuch @ 9/4/2007 6:22:54 PM # Q
I noticed late last week that Foleo was missing from the homepage at Palm. Now we know why.

RE: Missing Foleo
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 8:00:23 AM # Q
I don't know what you mean by that. As of Sunday, I was still able to look at Foleo info under "mobile companion."

Reply to this comment

Let's see...LifeDrive died almost as soon ...

SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 6:27:02 PM # Q
...as it was born and Fooleo never got past the womb.

maybe PALM should concentrate on...you know...PDAs?

RE: Let's see...LifeDrive died almost as soon ...
rmhurdman @ 9/4/2007 6:42:20 PM # Q
Do you see a pattern here?

RE: Let's see...LifeDrive died almost as soon ...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 6:49:14 PM # Q
Well..I guess the logical extrapolation is no new ideas "conceived" at all.

You know...like farming out all Windows and Linux work and dropping PalmOS entirely (just keeping whatever "look and feel" someone thinks they should keep - frankly, I don't see the need for THAT either - this is not 1990 or whenever THAT look and was born).

WAITAMINUTE!

That's EXACTLY what they're doing!

Reply to this comment

Long live Garnet!!!

jfme @ 9/4/2007 6:33:56 PM # Q
I hope this decision was in lie of improving and patching the woes of currently released devices.

April's Foleo day in September.

Reply to this comment
RE: Dude, you're getting a Dell!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 9/4/2007 7:28:49 PM # Q
Lol!

I actually LOLed when I saw your Subject headline at the bottom of the home page.

The Kidlet (spoiled rotten and using the faster computer a-GAIN) turns around with a quizzical look and asks "Why are you laughing?"...kinda hard to explain that one to her...

RE: Dude, you're getting a Dell!!!
vorlon @ 9/5/2007 7:32:28 AM # Q
And get a good insurance policy too!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/04/the-fun-never-ends-another-dell-up-in-flames/

Seriously 6.9 lbs? My former PowerBook was 5.9 lbs, in 1999... And looked a a lot better. And with the OS' less bloated back then (SUSE-Linux & Mac OS 8.6), it propably ran a lot faster too.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g3/stats/powerbook_g3_400.html

Reply to this comment

IPHONE FINISHED FOLEO OFF?!

palmstory @ 9/4/2007 8:02:44 PM # Q
Apple: iPhone Was Best Selling SmartPhone In July, Says iSuppli
http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2007/09/04/apple-iphone-was-best-selling-smartphone-in-july-says-isuppli/

I wonder NOT if this

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9501/palm-cancels-the-foleo/

has something to do with THIS:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/h?s=aapl

More stuff here

http://www.appleinvestornews.com/page-one.html

Good night PALM... lucky for me, I didn't do my 700p VZ UPDATER!!!! Getting iPhone ANYDAY!!! PALM SOB'S better take care of all their 700P customers, whom they should beg for forgiveness DAILY AND PUBLICLY!!!!!!


RE: IPHONE FINISHED FOLEO OFF?!
jca666us @ 9/4/2007 10:20:52 PM # Q
If anything, the iphone showed Palm they can't release a half-baked poorly conceived design with a poor software bundle and expect it to sell well - if at all.

Reply to this comment

I'm Glad

theog @ 9/4/2007 8:14:07 PM # Q
At least management had the balls to cancel such a BS product.

Vote for John Kerry... best man for the job.
Reply to this comment

I'm switching! I'd be fool not to.

ExPalmUser2 @ 9/4/2007 8:14:56 PM # Q
Sorry because this comment is not that related to the headline but I really wanted to talk my heart out. I'm switching to Windows Mobile. Tired of this Palm thing. I recently purchased a Palm TX because the battery on my Palm T3 died. Replacing the battery would cost (as I remember) about $200. Even my old Sony SJ22 had a replacable battery! PocketPCs that I've seen around have replacable batteries. Multi-tasking!!! It's year 2007! even mobile phones have multi-tasking for god's sake. And now Palm is talking about their new platform!!! It's been a long time they have been talking about their new OS. That's ridiculous. Even if it's out someday most probably people will need to wait years (if not forever) to get some decent applications on that new platform. Microsoft had the vision. They have a visionary leader. It was my mistake (and I really regret it) not to switch earlier. But enough is enough.
RE: I'm switching! I'd be fool not to.
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 8:59:35 PM # Q

i'd consider an iphone. i'm no fan of Apple or Steve Jobs but I played extensively with a new iPhone the other day and i must say it was amazing. the for factor, display, OS, browser, GUI was spectacular. my treo felt like it was 25 years behind the iphone. like comparing an old 1983 Commodore 64 with a brand new top of the line 2007 Dell Notebook.

RE: I'm switching! I'd be fool not to.
twrock @ 9/4/2007 9:42:55 PM # Q
Replacing the battery would cost (as I remember) about $200.

Try $19.99 and a little of your time.
http://tinyurl.com/2bxx2l

This one even comes with a plug; no soldering required.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: I'm switching! I'd be fool not to.
mikecane @ 9/4/2007 9:44:01 PM # Q
Holy cow. Gekko LIKED the iPhone?! I was just looking at my blog on it. Christ, it was GORGEOUS!! NOTHING looks similarly gorgeous on my LifeDrive -- and it has a 320x480 screen too!!

Reply to this comment

Wow... it just keeps getting worse

drbuzz0 @ 9/4/2007 8:33:40 PM # Q
Well, admittedly I thought the foleo was a bad idea.. I mean come on... it's the size and price of a laptop and does much less.

Anyway, I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way but why did they not realize this ahead of time? Rather they get this far and then ditch it?

If they pushed it and it flopped, fair enough; not all products are successful. But what they have done here is really going to be a huge problem for developers and users who were already apprehensive about Palm's commitment.

Developers were looking at the Foleo with some interest to see how it went. And we all know that developers have been sheepish to trust Palm after a series of debockles in the past.

But this tops it all. Anyone who held out any hope that Palm was a company which would follow through with it's promises now has no doubt it won't


Yeah, I think I'm going to have to be switching too. I'm not crazy about the Symbian phones (love the OS but the phones don't do it for me). Gaw: Looks like it's Windows, unless I can find a decent linux phone

Reply to this comment

Hawkins

Gekko @ 9/4/2007 8:51:39 PM # Q

I wonder if Hawkins said: "I want to make this thing I call a Fooleo. Here's what it is. And if you guys don't want to do it, I'll leave Palm and start my own company just like I did with Handspring. I've struck lightning twice, and I'm going to strike it a third time with this Fooleo. If you're not with me, you're against me. What's it going to be?"

and then he strong-armed Colligan & Co. And Colligan pondered this and concluded that product diversification would be a great idea as the smartphone market has increased competition and has been commoditized and they needed to branch out and grow revenue/profits. And nobody else had any better ideas, so they decided to go for it. Anyone within Palm who thought this Fooleo was a stupid idea was afraid to speak up and say "The Emperor (Hawkins) has no clothes." and Hawkins believed his own BS and Colligan thought Hawkins was infallible. and the rest is now history.

"Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose." - Bill Gates

RE: Hawkins
jca666us @ 9/4/2007 10:23:54 PM # Q
Heck, this is a much more logical tale than the fiction cervezas posted.

RE: Hawkins
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 8:01:52 AM # Q
Gekko at least sees how it can be in business. What he said is plausible, but I don't think that's the entire story.

Reply to this comment

Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...

cervezas @ 9/4/2007 8:53:05 PM # Q
...over on the Palm blog: http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/09/a-message-to-pa.html#comments

Hardly a snippy comment in the bunch. Mostly people applauding Palm for the courageous decision and the sharpened focus mixed with disappointment they they'll have to wait a lot longer for the Foleo. What a contrast with PIC!

Goes to show you that if you've got bad news you're a lot better coming right out and saying it than being silent and hoping no one notices. I think a really frank interview in which Palm acknowledged in some detail the troubles behind the recent Treo update snafus would do the company a world of good. They've missed most of the best opportunities to do that, but really, it's never too late.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 9:02:42 PM # Q

friendly audience, silly. what did you expect?


RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
rcartwright @ 9/4/2007 9:18:56 PM # Q
Err...Gekko the same thing is going on at Engadget. And that is hardly a friendly crew

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 9:20:26 PM # Q
They haven't been so friendly in the past, have they? Just take a look at any other thread there for the past three months. It's like night and day.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 9:21:48 PM # Q

p.s. cheerleading yes-men and apologists like yourself just cost palm shareholders $10,000,000 for this failed pig. if palm would occasionally listen to the frank, common-sense devils-advocate comments like those here at PIC perhaps shareholders would be better off.

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 9:26:18 PM # Q

>disappointment they they'll have to wait a lot longer for the Foleo.

oh please stop.


RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 9:30:15 PM # Q
Oh. Yes.

I take full credit. :-)

For what it's worth, looks like the Street has a pretty good outpouring of good will as well, not just us boot-licking sycophantic yes-men: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PALM&t=5d

Time will tell, but so far it looks like shareholders are OK with the decision. (Not that they have the faintest clue what it really means.)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
mikecane @ 9/4/2007 9:42:50 PM # Q
Hey, Beers, so what is the disposition of that Foleo you have? Does it go back to Palm or is it now a souvenir?

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
Poopie @ 9/4/2007 9:58:46 PM # Q

if palm would occasionally listen to the frank, common-sense devils-advocate comments like those here at PIC perhaps shareholders would be better off.

So, what is our *current* advice to Palm?

They'd gain a HUGE amount of goodwill *just* for releasing the oh-so-long-awaited 320x480 Treo with no keyboard and wireless. That would be the upgrade that Tungsten owners have gotten tired of waiting for. Better late than never, right?


USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
mikecane @ 9/4/2007 10:02:33 PM # Q
>>>Hardly a snippy comment in the bunch.

Are you really that fekkin DELUSIONAL, Beers?! Do you REALLY think those Comments are ALL the posts?!!? You REALLY think Palm's blog would publish *frank* posts?

Jaysus...

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 10:10:05 PM # Q

look who was first in line to suck up to Colligan. no shame.


Comments

I'm sad for the delay in the Foleo product, but as a developer very pleased that I and other Palm developers will be able to target applications to a single, unified platform shared by Palm's smartphones and smartphone companions. I was impressed when I first got to try a Foleo how far the Foleo team had gone in achieving Palm's "Zen," so I can only think that the new OS will be delivering on that as well.

Glad for the renewed focus from you guys. You've got some great hardware in the Foleo, and the opportunity to have the same apps run across both Foleo and Palm smartphones is very exciting.

Posted by: David Beers | September 04, 2007 at 02:13 PM


http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/09/a-message-to-pa.html



RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
freakout @ 9/4/2007 10:21:20 PM # Q
Be nice, Gekko - think about the poor developers who've just watched the last few years of hard work go up in smoke. They're gonna need a hug and copious amounts of alcohol tonight, methinks... ;)

mikecane:
Are you really that fekkin DELUSIONAL, Beers?! Do you REALLY think those Comments are ALL the posts?!!? You REALLY think Palm's blog would publish *frank* posts?

Mike, if you'd actually read the other comments on other blog posts, you'd see that Palm has published plenty of negative comments as well as positive ones. Note the reaction of places like Gizmodo and Engadget as well: people are mostly congratulating Palm for having the cajones the pull the pin.

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 10:25:07 PM # Q
I'm hoping this year he sends a card at Christmas.

I meant what I said. And if Colligan does put me on his Christmas list I'd be happy to return the courtesy. I'll help him in his job search. :-P


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
madmaxmedia @ 9/4/2007 10:39:44 PM # Q
"Mike, if you'd actually read the other comments on other blog posts, you'd see that Palm has published plenty of negative comments as well as positive ones. Note the reaction of places like Gizmodo and Engadget as well: people are mostly congratulating Palm for having the cajones the pull the pin."

Yeah, but isn't that pretty faint praise, congratulating them for killing a half-assed product?

Or are they all actually expressing their admiration at Palm's foresight (or maybe it should be called hindshight), while simultaneously grieving over their disappointment that they will have to wait for a Foleo II (or whatever it will be called.)


RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
freakout @ 9/4/2007 10:49:33 PM # Q
Yeah, but isn't that pretty faint praise

At this point, Palm will probably take what they can get. ;)

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
cervezas @ 9/4/2007 11:00:32 PM # Q
Well sure it's faint praise. I don't think anyone's saying "Palm, you guys just made my day" with an announcement like this one.

Based on all the vitriolic posts they've let through before and the fact that we don't here people posting elsewhere about how they were censored by Palm, I think it's pretty safe to say that the comments you see on the Palm blog are all the comments that are posted, minus a few that use too much profanity, perhaps.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 7:39:16 AM # Q
> ...p.s. cheerleading yes-men and apologists like yourself
> just cost palm shareholders $10,000,000 for this failed pig...

There was MUCH more than $10,000,000 lost by this one - that is the INCREMENTAL cost of shutting the project down.

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 8:03:43 AM # Q
>>>the fact that we don't here people posting elsewhere about how they were censored by Palm,

You need to get out of your shell, son.

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/poor-ed-colligan-ascared-of-me/

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
rmhurdman @ 9/5/2007 9:38:05 AM # Q
---Quote---
Are you really that fekkin DELUSIONAL, Beers?! Do you REALLY think those Comments are ALL the posts?!!? You REALLY think Palm's blog would publish *frank* posts?
---End Quote---

Either they haven't gotten around to it, or they *aren't* posting all the comments. Mine hasn't shown up yet, and it was relatively tame.

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:55:45 AM # Q
There is always quite a delay before publication. Remember, it is a corporate blog, so its only alive during corporate business hours.

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
rmhurdman @ 9/6/2007 2:07:03 PM # Q
Still not posted. Now does anyone believe that they aren't picking and choosing the comments they want to allow on their blog?

For the record, all I said was that I don't want a smartphone.

Ed Colligan is talking about focussing on smartphones, which make no sense to people who only want PDAs, no sense to people who want BT DUN to connect a PDA to a dumbphone and no sense to people who have had a cellphone plan outside of North America (the economics don't make sense here).
Not to mention, Palm is pinning their future on their acceptance by mobile carriers.

That's a long way of saying that Palm *doesn't* listen. They don't want to hear from people who want to own PDAs. It's funny that HP is putting out PDAs and Apple is putting out iPods that work just like PDAs (in the sense that they include PIM and web access).

RE: Wow. Look at the outpouring of good will...
hkklife @ 9/6/2007 2:58:36 PM # Q
The whole point of a "corporate blog" is entirely oxymoronic IMO. I mean, what's the difference between a infrequently updated corporate blog filled with lots of rah-rah cheerleading and vaguely worded responses to pressing issues facing the community and a "News Room" link on the main page with separate sections of officially issued press releases and little news tidbits about the company?

There's probably more value in, say, Ben Combee's or Michael Mace's blog (assuming Ben's not under a huge secrecy pact/NDA and Mike's not bound to any kind of "play nice" agreement from his former employer) than the milquetoast postings and heavily edited comments on the Palm blog.

The PIC comments board is STILL where all the good stuff is, especially on a week like this one!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Reply to this comment

Is Apple killing the Foleo?

mikecane @ 9/4/2007 9:41:21 PM # Q
I'm typing this at an Apple Store (hey, I was away when I read about the Foleo mercy-killing! -- still am!).

This is what I posted today:

Tomorrow’s iPod: The Beginning Of Bliss?
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/tomorrows-ipod-the-beginning-of-bliss/

But this is what I posted the day before that:

OK, Now The Foleo Scares Me
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/03/ok-now-the-foleo-scares-me/

Ironic, eh?

I will have a LOT to say about the Foleo on my blog tomorrow. It's too late and I'm too tired -- and frankly still too shocked -- to try even beginning tonight (I'd be up all damned night!).

Will sleep on it and post on my blog tomorrow.

BTW, the bloody staff at the Apple Store are frikkin well-trained.

1) They would not even admit that iPods would be announced tomorrow

2) Even a trick question of, "Let's say they are announced tomorrow, what would be a good time to come in to buy one?" didn't get by them!!

Steve Jobs is indeed a living god.

(Contrast that to Palm's stores which apparently have TEMPS in them!! I wonder what the per-floor expenditure at the Palm Store is compared to the Apple Store? I bet the Palm Store's are a drain instead of an asset! Gekko?)

RE: Is Apple killing the Foleo?
mikecane @ 9/4/2007 10:06:38 PM # Q
Oopsie.

>>>per-floor expenditure

Should be per-SQUARE-FOOT expenditure. Apple Store sales -- indeed, all retail brick & mortar sales -- are calculated on a per-square-foot basis. Gekko would have known that. Yo, Gek. Got those figures yet?

Reply to this comment

Too Much to Ask?

Timothy Rapson @ 9/4/2007 9:59:13 PM # Q
Is there even the slightest possiblility that Palm will take what little is left of it's know-how and make a Sony TH55, ALL the features, REAL quality, NICE looks?

Nah! Too much to ask.

RE: Too Much to Ask?
Gekko @ 9/4/2007 10:02:55 PM # Q

the pda died a long time ago.

RE: Too Much to Ask?
mikecane @ 9/4/2007 10:04:27 PM # Q
Palm's PDAs are dead. TOTALLY dead now. Stock up on ebay. When the TE2 and TX sell out at retail, that will be IT.

If any of you planned to give a Palm PDA as an Xmas gift (to someone who you must apparently HATE!), buy it NOW.

RE: Too Much to Ask?
cnegrad @ 9/4/2007 10:27:22 PM # Q
"If any of you planned to give a Palm PDA as an Xmas gift (to someone who you must apparently HATE!), buy it NOW."

Nah...One or two software upgrades on either the Mac or Windows side will render Hotsyncing inoperative, and then it'll just be an expensive paperweight. Palm created the PDA, and now they've gone and killed it. Morons.....

-cnegrad

RE: Too Much to Ask?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 7:48:56 AM # Q
> ...Palm's PDAs are dead. TOTALLY dead now...

Perhaps.

The CFO made some noise not that long ago that =I= thought suggested there was still a possibility, though (see the PiC post or three that has "Brown" in it written by me).

I easily could envision a Linux PDA with bluetooth connected to a not-all-THAT-smart phone when it needs to get further away than "local".

WAITAMINUTE!

I =did= envision that four and a half years ago!

== "...So what I want is a large screen PDA with keyboard
== and tapscreen with a DETACHABLE Piggyback phone with a
== dinky screen and standard numeric buttons, etc. Maybe
== talking to each other via Bluetooth or whatever..."

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=219661&postcount=1

and

== "...Anyway - it looks to THIS reader like PalmOne is for
== SURE heading to what I mentioned with their redefinition of
== "converged device" to allow multiple communicating devices (!!!).
== As such, perhaps that "device" mentioned up there will be
== Coming Soon! (albeit maybe not so converged that it's piggybacked...)"

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=338530&postcount=9

Giggle.

(luv bringing that one up over and over, eh?)

RE: Too Much to Ask?
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 10:33:59 AM # Q
First of all, I called the Fooleo pretty much "the worst product I have ever seen in its current execution" back in May/June. I stuck to that opinion throughout the summer and will maintain that opinion going forward.

I'd still STUNNED that Palm canned it. I mean, ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, JAW-DROPPINGLY STUNNED. Palm management NEVER likes to admit making mistakes and always tries to shove things down their customers' throats no matter what (look at NVFS, Treos instead of PDAs etc).

As has been echoed several times above, it was turning into a lose-lose situation for Palm but killing it at the 11th hour is probably the lesser of all of the evils that could have emanated from the Fooleo's arrival on the marketplace.
And I don't think that this was in the works for a while now...I think the terrible response from the online community (particular Engadget's letter--do these guys have THAT much clout?) combined with the recent sync difficulties probably conspired to finish off the Fooleo.

I had a sneaking suspicion something was amiss over the past few weeks, to be quite honest:

1. When the Foleo was moved off of Palm's front page last week

2. When the late August launch date passed and Palm just kinda/sorta said it was still on track for September wthout taking a strong stance

3. When I went to every damn brick & mortar retail store in the area looking for signs of the Fooleo (new endcap displays, Palm signage etc) and didn't find anything.

4. The news about Wind River coming onboard back last month was an ill omen (IMO) even though I wasn't going to directly state that in my news item.

5. The recent flurry of sale/clearance pricing on palm.com and in retail stores for Palm PDAs.

6. Brighthand's recent piece about "What would you like to see in a Palm TX2"?. This makes me think that Palm might even have a mildly refreshed PDA or two in the works. In a sick & twisted way, the demise of the Fooleo is the ONLY encouraging sign for the PDA faithful from Palm in years.

Palm could have easily had the designs for, say, a Z33 and TX2 in the can for a while while waiting for a reason to greenlight them (the negative outcry to the Fooleo and the 700p debacle would be good enough reasons).

So assuming they decided to greenlight a TX2 or Z33 in May/June of this year it can easily be on store shelves in early '08 . The simple fact of the matter is that now that the Foleo is toast, Palm's retail presence will be SHOT if they don't bring something new to the table soon. It's possible that Palm could keep the PDA line going (as long as it at least breaks even) as a sort of revenue-generating, extended name/branding/marketing effort to prop up the Treo/Centro line. Add to that the quotes that SV keeps tossing out here from Andy Brown and you've got to at least give it a 2nd thought. Now, I STILL think PDAs are toast and we'll never see another one from Palm. I'm just saying that the chances of see a new PDA from Palm are now a fair bit higher than they were a year or so ago.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Too Much to Ask?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 10:45:12 AM # Q
> ...I'm still STUNNED that Palm canned it. I mean, ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY,
> JAW-DROPPINGLY STUNNED. Palm management NEVER likes to admit making
> mistakes and always tries to shove things down their customers' throats
> no matter what (look at NVFS, Treos instead of PDAs etc)....

As noted in another earlier post, I think it is quite possible Colligan has become past tense w.r.t. PALM and "took the hit" of cancelling the Fooleo as a last datapoint.

I expect to see news of this soon - maybe on the 12th?

[I can't think of a good reason to cancel his automated stock option exercising UNLESS he has no need to continue to do so]

RE: Too Much to Ask?
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 10:50:08 AM # Q
>>>do these guys have THAT much clout?

Er, no. I'll be posting about that in my blog later today.

Your analysis has some good points. But I must be out of the loop again: I can't figure out what the fek "w.r.t." means.

RE: Too Much to Ask?
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 11:07:07 AM # Q
What? Colligan is a Water Round Torpedo?!

RE: Too Much to Ask?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 11:08:52 AM # Q
Perhaps Wastewater Retention Tank.

Reply to this comment

Vampire Lestat

VampireLestat @ 9/4/2007 10:56:39 PM # Q
Canceling was probably a wise decision.
Palm is coming full circle yet again.

Palm needs to focus:
- Make cells.
- Make PDAs (OLED).
- Focus on 1 Palm OS (and abandon WM).

From day 1, I screamed aloud that WM would distract, dilute and confuse.

RE: Vampire Lestat
VampireLestat @ 9/5/2007 1:02:37 AM # Q
and they better hurry up because HP is going to announce 5 new PDAs and cellphones this month.

HP is not stupid, they saw Palm arrogantly ignored an amazing market grab opportunity when HP released a bunch of crappy PDAs a few years ago and Dell gave up last year.
HP is now coming back, for a cleansweep of the PDA market.

I strongly believe that the PDA market is large, it is a core market and it is destined for constant growth.

Why can't Palm see this?
Don't they read boards and constantly see comments from people who love slim TX like devices?
PDAs will all have wireless connectivity, we all agree, but the whole argument here is over
- if carriers should brand and control the device
- if the device has to be phone-centric
- form factors that offer larger, better screens, and that still fit in pockets
- very slim form factors
- versions with and without keyboards
- etc

The concept of a "PC in your pocket" is NEVER going to go away. It is up to Palm to release a multitude of device lines that answer most persons needs. Treos are great, but there are other needs out there also.

Palm is a mobile PDA company. They should stick to what they did best i.e., make PDAs, smartphones and an awesome OS that helps people stay organized and occasionally entertained.

The Foleo was a noble effort, but the market isnt ready for it due to laptops and technology overload (which Colligan ironically admitted himself).

I use my Treo and TX daily. They serve to complete and backup one another. I and many others have money to spend towards upgrading either device. Palm has to MAKE A NEW FRICKEN HANDHELD!... how many times I and a gazillion other people have to repeat ourselves before someone listens?

Anyways.. whatever. Palm will do what Palm wants to do. Just remember, we the consumers have the $$.

RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:25:08 AM # Q
>>>because HP is going to announce 5 new PDAs and cellphones this month.

Oh really? If HP doesn't release a SINGLE PDA this month, will you finally go away?

RE: Vampire Lestat
Surur @ 9/5/2007 9:44:54 AM # Q
"From day 1, I screamed aloud that WM would distract, dilute and confuse."

I thought that was the foleo's job?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 10:02:23 AM # Q
Surur, what device are you using these days? And what do you think of that HTC Advantage? Tried it?

RE: Vampire Lestat
Surur @ 9/5/2007 10:30:46 AM # Q
I am using an HTC Touch, HTC's iPhone wannabe that came out before the iPhone. Its amazingly small, and still does most things pretty well.
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=729

At the same time I am still using my HTC Universal, mainly due to the amazingly good keyboard and 3G support (the Touch does not have this). I keep copious notes every day, and I need a way to easily record this. I also use my phone as my laptop modem, so 3G is essential.
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=148

I have seen and handled the Advantage, but its just too big for me (and I dont mind big phones in general). Also a mechanical hard drive in this day and age seems backward.

I am waiting for the HTC Omni, due later this year (supposedly October, but one knows how these schedules slip). It is the same size of my HTC Universal, but a 1/3 thinner at 16mm (thinner than the Centro). It has a larger 4 inch 800x480 screen (the Universal and Advantage are both VGA), HSDPA, WIFI, GPS, 3 megapixel autofocus camera and VGA Out. It will probably also have the TouchFlo screen as found on the Touch, and appears to have a Pearl-like trackball. The main feature is of course the full 5 row keyboard with number keys also. Its also has the Universal's twist and flip screen, turning it into a tablet device.
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=790

When I get this I can finally retire my 19 month old Universal. Its the longest I have ever had a PDA or phone, which just shows how unique a device it was (despite being a horribly unreliable phone).

HTC just announced they will be releasing 10 devices with 3G chipsets by Qualcom THIS year, and that they will be increasing their already torrential pace of device development (The Touch II has already been announced in Japan). If there is one problem HTC does not have, unlike Palm, its delivery.
http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/handhelds/0,39001709,62031835,00.htm

It has occurred to me that the Foleo was Palm's Segway. A device that was thought to be revolutionary by its creators, mainly because it was developed in intense secrecy. Once exposed to the harsh light of public scrutiny the fact the solution (and especially the cost of it) was out of proportion to the severity of the problem, and that therefore the market was extremely small. The only difference is that Palm finally decided to listen (probably due to the influx of new management) whereas Karmen is still waiting for cities to be re-engineered around his creation.

Surur

RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 10:46:00 AM # Q
HTC is an aggressive company. It doesn't look like they sleep. None of those devices appeal to me, however. I had thought the Shift would be for me, but now I don't think so.

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/03/ok-now-the-foleo-scares-me/

Yeah, I was thinking about the Segway myself this morning, hours before I came here to PIC. But I think the analogy is flawed. Segway is all hardware. The Foleo is mostly sofwtare.

Well, enjoy your devices and thanks for the HTC education.

RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 4:50:24 PM # Q
I'll be damned. hp announces FIVE! And TWO real PDAs! One with a 4" VGA screen!

http://tinyurl.com/3crpya

RE: Vampire Lestat
VampireLestat @ 9/6/2007 8:17:43 AM # Q
I am going to buy the VGA one.


RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:09:50 AM # Q
What's that going to cost? Any CPU and speed mentioned? RAM/ROM?

RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:36:57 AM # Q
I couldn't find price, but geez, look at the CPU!

Processor Marvell PXA310, 624MHz

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2007/mobility/ds_ipaq200.pdf

Killah.

RE: Vampire Lestat
hoodoo @ 9/6/2007 9:56:13 AM # Q
The 100 and 200 handhelds are both VOIP capable, that's pretty neat.

RE: Vampire Lestat
VampireLestat @ 9/6/2007 12:03:25 PM # Q
HP 200 Classic pda has "twin speakers".
Looks like, UNLIKE PALM, hp has actually been reading Palm forums to jot down the best fan base suggestions. Or... maybe just coincidence.



RE: Vampire Lestat
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 12:07:52 PM # Q
> ...Looks like, UNLIKE PALM, hp has actually been reading
> Palm forums to jot down the best fan base suggestions.
> Or... maybe just coincidence.

Didn't some...you know...High Uppity Up from PALM go to HPQ to head up their...you know...mobile devices (among other things) group?

-- http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/bios/bradley.html

RE: Vampire Lestat
VampireLestat @ 9/6/2007 12:20:13 PM # Q
You know what sickens me?
Now that Apple and HP are going back into the PDA market with a vengeance (AS THEY SHOULD!) -- -which I have been saying f-o-r-e-v-e-r, Palm is probably going to start designing a new TX starting next week.

They have become followers. They have no idea what they are doing, what people want and where to throw themselves next.
No more Foleo, an aging line of pdas, a flood and clone Treos and still no multitasking OS. I think this is end of the road.

Palm might go on as a small to average company, but I think Palm as a big market player is about to come to an end. The HP devices and the iTouch are simply too far ahead of Palm now.

But who really knows. Change comes swiftly in this market.
I prefer Palm remain a player in order to ensure competition, choice and lower prices.


RE: Vampire Lestat
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:31:54 PM # Q
I'd forgotten about Bradley. Geez, look at what he can do when he's given a *budget*. When he can concentrate on *products* instead of whether the company he works for has stock options that will drop to zero value.

I have to tell you that I'll be giving that iPaq 200 a serious look as a portable blogging machine. I'd rather have the iPhone for that -- and who knows, maybe next month's Leopard unveil will bring along a One More Thing of an iPhone/iPod SDK. Just let me pair a frikkin Bluetooth keyboard with an iPhone and I'm there!

Which is another reason why I said above Palm has just SIX WEEKS to save its ass.

RE: Vampire Lestat
VampireLestat @ 9/6/2007 12:37:34 PM # Q
I think it's over.
Considering R&D times and product cycles, to turnaround now is going to be tough.
Palm better hope that their Treo products carry them to safety for a few more years. But that iPhone (now at 399$) and iTouch seem to be moving in for the kill.

Palm was warned multiple times they had to move in and consolidate the PDA market so it could serve as a stabilizer and $ cushion. That window passed, they trashed a huge part of their clientèle and now, surprise, surprise, out of the blue HP and Apple move right into that up-for-grabs market and will now takeover.


Reply to this comment

There may be hope for this company yet...

razorpit @ 9/5/2007 12:24:50 AM # Q
This is great news, what next? Will Palm go completely nuts and announce a 1/8" headphone jack on the next Treo?

RE: There may be hope for this company yet...
VampireLestat @ 9/5/2007 12:41:50 AM # Q
That jack... jesus is it annoying on my 680.
All Palms should have 3.5mm.
btw, anyone know how to disable the "Make emergency" button?
I turn off the cell radio but I occasionally accidentally hit the button and make 911 calls. The police is bound to show up at my door one day because of my TReo.

If Palm makes another handheld, I will buy it. I notice I am still using my TX way more than I expected after having bought my 680.

Reply to this comment

OMG they killed Foleo! Bastards!

vorlon @ 9/5/2007 7:20:07 AM # Q
Damn! Hope the Asus eee has a good keyboard and battery life, or I just have to keep using the Psion Netbook when travelling light.

Hope this focusing thing doesn't also kill the PDA...

Just a thought: instead of killing Foleo, sell it as a ultra portable Debian Linux laptop - no software development needed.

RE: OMG they killed Foleo! Bastards!
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:26:30 AM # Q
Reply to this comment

PDA-killer Colligan is likely behind this.

VampireLestat @ 9/5/2007 9:25:01 AM # Q
I wouldn't be surprised to learn if PDA-killer Colligan is responsible for pulling the Foleo; same crap he did with the handheld lines.

I get a funny feeling this guy in ANTI-EVERYTHING non-Treo.

RE: PDA-killer Colligan is likely behind this.
VampireLestat @ 9/5/2007 9:27:17 AM # Q
Althought unlikely, and patent/ownership rights aside, I just hope Hawkins leave Palm and starts selling the Foleo under a new company.

Maybe he could reinvent it again and become the sole owner of the product and relaunch it.

All this is silly I know, but I was kinda looking forward to the Foleo.

RE: PDA-killer Colligan is likely behind this.
VampireLestat @ 9/5/2007 9:31:16 AM # Q
think about it for second...
these would be top buyers:
- gadget lovers
- student (finally a true laptop to take notes in class)
- field scientists collecting data
- business workers carrying a briefcase needed a laptop like device but very light

this was a super cool product that deserved a chance

Hawkins deserved a chance!
Mr. Hawkins, if you are reading, F them, F Colligan, go start your own company and sell the Foleo EVEN THOUGH IT DOESNT PLAY YOUTUBE- WOOPY DOO!


Reply to this comment

Is Combee telling the truth?

mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:32:10 AM # Q
>>>We weren't ready to go to market with this,

http://unwiredben.livejournal.com/254565.html

It's too bad he didn't elaborate. Not ready in what way? There should be some detail here to make it plausible. Could an email syncing bug really have been the downfall? Was it that elusive? Or was the bug -- if it still existed -- something that simply could not be fixed because it was built into the Treo side? Or because the Foleo had too little RAM? This cries out for at least a bone thrown our way.

>>>and it would hard for Palm to support two different Linux-based platforms going forward

Whoa. And yet Palm manages PalmOS and WinMob. (Well, OK then. In reality they *mis*manage, but let us not disturb their illusions...)

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 9:35:27 AM # Q
Oops. Combee does indeed elaborate in the Comments, which I did not initially (obviously!) see.

>>>We hadn't gone into full production of the device yet pending the final build of the software, so while we had a fairly large number of units produced for internal testing and development, we don't have to get rid of a lot of hardware. I expect the already-built devices will continue to be used by their owners. By not releasing the device, we greatly reduce marketing and support costs, and we avoid ongoing manufacturing costs.

>>>And yes, the Foleo version of Linux was quite a bit different from the version we're using for future smartphones. Different hardware, different customer requirements, different form factor. However, a lot of the expertise that the Foleo team developed in working on the kernel, building drivers, creating test systems, and producing embedded middleware should be reusable on our smartphone systems.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 10:56:20 AM # Q
At least SeldomVisitor should finally be up to speed now on the fact that Palm has been working on a Linux platform for its smartphones. The frantic denials were getting a little pathetic.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 11:00:40 AM # Q
Huh?

When did I deny Linux on smartphones?

WHY would I deny Linux on smartphones?

Are you nuts!?

Oh.

Nevermind.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 11:00:53 AM # Q
Oh before it was SV, it was Foo doing the denial bit.

Didn't Colligan already say there wouldn't be any new Treos for the rest of this year? Cagey, since there's that Centro coming out.

But still, how far along on that OS can they be? I don't expect anything til March of 08 -- their traditional release month.

In fact, aside from Centro, I'd be shocked if anything else came out from Palm between now and the year-end shopping season. What, more Garnet?!

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 3:03:56 PM # Q
SeldomVisitor wrote:
Huh?

When did I deny Linux on smartphones?

WHY would I deny Linux on smartphones?


Ok, it's "Palm Linux" that you denied (whatever that means).

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135128
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135139
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135145

I guess you get a pass this time, but if you like I can keep you on the "stupid" list of people who thinks Palm is not going to have any backward compatibility with Palm OS in its new platform. ;-)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 3:41:30 PM # Q
Dyslexic, eh?

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 3:41:52 PM # Q
Here's what I predict Palm will do between now and the end of the year:


#1. Palm Centro CDMA. Palm OS 5.4.9. EVDO Rev. 0, 64mb RAM, less DBHeap/Cache than the 680/755p/700p. 1.3mp camera, tiny 320x320 LCD. Non-replacable 1200mAh or possibly 1600mAh battery. 2.5mm headset port. microSDHC slot. BT 1.2 w/o A2DP. $99.99 w/ contract. Sprint exclusive at launch & will never appear on Verizon.

#2 Palm Centro GSM. Palm OS 5.4.9. Same specs as above but with EDGE. Same price w/ contract or $299 unlocked. This could end up being the sleeper "hit" of the Centro line, especially if Palm discontinues the 680 soon as I expect them to and starts aggressively discounting the unlocked Centro's price.

#3 Palm Centro GSM. Windows Mobile Standard. No touchscreen. 320x240 LCD. Slightly wider body (think Moto Q style) and possibly larger keyboard. 1200mAh battery. $99.99 w/ contract or $300 unlocked.

#4 I would not be surprised to see Palm start selling the Treo 750 pre-loaded with WM6. They might change up the color offerings, cut the price a few bucks and maybe even starting packing in a slightly higher-capacity battery and call it the "750 Special Edition" or "750 SE" or "750x" or something.

#5 Z22 drops to $75-$80 permanently, E2 to $150, TX to $250.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 4:25:30 PM # Q
>>>I can keep you on the "stupid" list of people who thinks Palm is not going to have any backward compatibility with Palm OS in its new platform. ;-)

What makes you think that's a good thing at this point?

Palm has virtually criminalized all 3rd-party apps via their lousy support. The UI is now ugly, decrepit, and I can't tell you how annoying I find Haitani's shocking-blue "one-handedness" on my LifeDrive.

There is no advantage to backward compatibility. Palm has already killed the Palm Ecology by declaring most of the apps to be "not well-behaved."

Throw the whole damned thing away and start building a new Palm Economy.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 4:49:24 PM # Q
> ...Throw the whole damned thing away and start building a new Palm Economy.

Yes, that is my belief as well.

[and I think PALM would be making an a-MAZ-ing mistake to try to develop a PalmOS emulation layer or something equally too-complex-for-their-lousy-developers. What a waste of resources THAT would be! Then again, PALM has a fairly robust history of mistakes, so....]

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 5:03:53 PM # Q
I'm at the point where I tend to agree on canning all backwards compatibility as well. Just let me import my PIM data, keep the best parts of the UI, and partner with the "must have" app developers to offer ATTRACTIVE discount pricing to upgrade to the next-gen of apps (DTG, PTunes, CorePlayer, Kinoma etc).

It'll be a bummer losing the dozens and dozens of games & apps I've registered over the years but I'll survive somehow.

Perhaps an even better idea would be to keep at least a handful of Garnet devices in production for the next year or two to make sure the people who still need/want to run the old stuff can do so!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/5/2007 5:29:15 PM # Q
> I'm at the point where I tend to agree on canning all backwards
> compatibility as well...

Others also have expressed ...uh...an opinion about this:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1341166&postcount=90

Giggle.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
cervezas @ 9/5/2007 6:32:47 PM # Q
It's easy for some individual users to say "let's just dispense with Garnet compatibility." Certainly easy for SeldomVisitor who isn't a user at all!

But there is a pretty large installed base of applications with some pretty good Palm customers out there, some of which paid six figures for custom applications that help them do business. You only have to have a few of those customers make a big stink about how Palm abandoned them and you can send customers like them over to competitors who aren't going to move their cheese. To say nothing of a good number of consumer-type users who'd consider it the last straw when they have to not just buy a new phone from Palm, but spend almost that much again repurchasing all their favorite software--if it was even available.

The way to wean people off an old API is to offer developers a better one that enables them to produce superior applications, then let consumers start weaning themselves over time. After a few years (and plenty of advance warning) you can remove the compatibility layer and not have too many squawks. ACCESS has this right.

Finally, I suspect that Garnet emulation on Linux is not a big technical problem for Palm in the grand scheme of things.

So no, I don't think Garnet is going away, it's just going to become like the Carbon API on OS X. And eventually like the Mac Classic API (which is no longer supported on Leopard).

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
twrock @ 9/5/2007 9:39:31 PM # Q
I'm at the point where I tend to agree on canning all backwards compatibility as well.

They do this and I am so outta here! Why in the world would anyone stick with the Palm platform if they kill backward compatibility? At this point I think you'd have to be nuts not to look at Apple, or HP, or HTC, or Motorola, or Nokia, or ....... The list is huge. There is nothing more than my collection of apps that keeps me in the Palm fold at the moment.

What, is there something terribly compelling about Palm's hardware?!! My T2 and TX were both barely passable from a hardware standpoint.


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RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
twrock @ 9/6/2007 3:45:09 AM # Q
Just to clarify, when I said that the T2 and TX hardware was only passable, I was referring to quality, not features. Bad power buttons, terrible digitizers, loss of sound, etc. I went through four TX's in the first year and started fixing it myself after the warranty expired. And mine were not isolated problems; plenty of others had the same problems.

Regarding the other manufacturers, how about the specs on HP's upcoming iPAQ 210 PDA? http://tinyurl.com/369l7w Again, there is no good excuse for Palm to be giving away the market. Without my third-party app collection, that iPAQ 210 looks like a better replacement option than anything Palm has shown us lately.


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RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 6:51:43 AM # Q
> ...They do this and I am so outta here! ...

But "you", for quite a few and probably significantly GROWING set of "you", are already out of here. That set of "you" =are= going with the Mots and Noks and Apples ALREADY.

And NEW "you"s aren't coming in.

That, in a nutshell, IS PALM's problem.

That is to say, PALM gains little to nothing (of course IMHO) if they stick with some form of backward compatability. They've ALREADY thrown it away with their WinMob devices and their now-dead Fooleo; keeping it around for their NEW platform is simply a silly nostalgic thought. And an a-MAZ-ing waste of their meager development capabilities.

If there is something particularly desireable w.r.t. INTERFACE or something equally ill-defined, fine, keep it in some form.

But dump the backward compatability.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
twrock @ 9/6/2007 7:21:14 AM # Q
SV, nope. Beers explained it very well above, so I have no need to do so again. If you can't figure out why that makes sense, then there really isn't any point going further. (Maybe this is another one of those times when you don't bother to read what others have written?)


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RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 7:27:43 AM # Q
I do not respect "Beers"' opinion, admittedly. He's an inexperienced pumper who modifies his stance as his stance is shown to be wrong.

Sorry.


RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:15:41 AM # Q
Beers brought up the issue I always tend to forget: the corporate one. There are still plenty of classic PalmOS corporate users out there with -- let me use The Suit term -- focused solutions that do well for them. Sweeping Garnet away would most likely lose all those customers -- unless there could be a swift transition of their software to the new incompatible OS. If Palm were to ditch Garnet completely, it's not like those companies would stop using their existing Palms the day after. I suspect many would hang on and harangue their software providers to get working on making their software run on the new OS. If some of that software is orphan -- the developer went out of business -- well, there's no helping that anyway. At some point Garnet *will* be dead and those companies will be up the creek anyway.

>>>I went through four TX's in the first year and started fixing it myself after the warranty expired. And mine were not isolated problems; plenty of others had the same problems.

Jesus! Knock wood my crappy LifeDrive works properly (ie, like crap!) and has no hardware issues (yet!).

And then Palm wonders why people have dropped them? You put up with going through four TXs. The average Joe would drop PalmOS after *one*.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
cervezas @ 9/6/2007 9:18:30 AM # Q
I do not respect "Beers"' opinion, admittedly. He's an inexperienced pumper who modifies his stance as his stance is shown to be wrong.

I on the other hand have enormous respect for you, SeldomVisitor, who so comfortably can maintain his stance when it is shown to be wrong and keep coming back for more. Such courage!

We've been over the "inexperienced" and "pumper" allegations, but thanks for giving everyone another example of that fact-impervious stance of yours right in the same post. Very thoughtful! :-)

To the topic under discussion, backward compatibility and an all-new, powerful operating system are not either/or propositions, as ALP and OS X have demonstrated. So even if you didn't agree that Palm should try to hold onto its current user base for some reason, deciding to ditch the Garnet compatibility layer wouldn't give Palm any extra ability to attract new users. If a new Palm user never installed a Garnet application they'd never know or care that that layer was there, and the layer wouldn't affect the look-and-feel or what could be done by applications that are built against the new APIs.

There's only one reason I can think of that Palm would ditch Garnet compatibility: if several of the carriers came to them and said they had to. Fortunately for Palm OS users, the carriers are even more worried about churn than Palm is, so the likelihood of one of them would break rank on this and send high-margin customers into the arms of a competitor seems small to me. Even if Garnet was regarded as a support liability, they know very well that there wouldn't be a large number of users installing the old applications and that the ones who did would tend to be the savvier users. Far from asking Palm to get rid of Garnet compatibility, they'd more likely make compatibility a requirement. Have we forgotten about who the customer is for a new OS and who makes many of the requirements for it?

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
twrock @ 9/6/2007 9:19:53 AM # Q
Sorry

(No, you aren't. And if your assesment of Beers is at all accurate, I prefer having a discussion with someone who can recognize reality and make adjustments vs. someone who holds onto an untenable position no matter how absurd it has become.)

It isn't about who said it. Rejecting what he said based on how you feel about him is simply shallow. It's not about who he is; it's about whether or not what he said makes the most sense given the current situation.

Dumping backward compatibility at this point would be foolish unless there were some terribly compelling reason for doing so. Since Palm already paid their millions for the rights to use Garnet, it would make a lot of sense to build in support for legacy apps as they are creating their new Linux-based OS. Just as was stated above by "someone else", ACCESS saw the value. Palm, of all companies, should recognize the value. But obviously you don't.

Ok, there I go doing the very thing I said I didn't want to. Why do I bother wasting my time.

Here, let me make it easy for you. I'm probably the last person who hasn't switched to another company's product because I'm still tied to my collection of third-party apps. Everyone else has left already. I'm wrong in wanting legacy support. Beers is wrong in suggesting that doing so is a good idea. ACCESS is wrong in doing it already. And Palm will be wrong if they support Garnet apps in their new OS. There, it's settled. Let's move on to the next topic in which you reject the idea because the person who suggested it is named David Beers. Life is so much easier that way.


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RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:26:28 AM # Q
As far as I'm concerned, you're right about keeping Garnet in there.

Just keep it the hell away from me!

Oh, I can't resist: Giggle.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
twrock @ 9/6/2007 9:27:27 AM # Q
Yikes, that's almost embarrassing. Looks like David, Mike and I were typing at the same time.

Mike, I was being yanked around by Palm AsiaPacific's incredibly horrendous warranty/repair system. I had little choice unless I just wanted to give up. But I have no interest in buying another TX, ever. And I likely would not be an early adopter of future Palm products.


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RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 9:51:04 AM # Q
> ...Sweeping Garnet away would most likely lose all those customers...

Nonsense.

Those are PAST customers.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:36:43 PM # Q
Ok, now I see why people are calling you dense, SV.

No, they are *present* customers. In corporations, in companies, using narrow-focus programs that are customized for *their specific businesses*.

Dropping Garnet compatibility in the future OS *would make them* past customers.

And now that Compaq/hp is releasing two new real-life PDAs, there is new hardware to entice those customers. I'm sure the devs of their niche programs would *love* to switch to coding in WinMob. They know MS isn't about to go belly-up. And WinMob is up to 6. PalmOS is on 5, 5, 5, 5 ... for years!

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 12:42:06 PM # Q
Oh, you mean those 200-PDA customers?

1000-PDA?

Or maybe 50-PDA?

Yeah, PALM for SURE should expend the resources to address THEIR concerns alrightee!

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
pmjoe @ 9/6/2007 2:26:08 PM # Q
At this point Palm needs to get something out ASAP. If there is going to be a compatibility layer which is taking resources, it needs to be dropped to the backburner or open sourced for the time being, with a whitepaper describing its functionality. Or stick a sandboxed emulator in there for old apps, but that's it. This is no time to piddle around with 5 year old, outdated technology.

The quote of Ben's that, "However, a lot of the expertise that the Foleo team developed in working on the kernel, building drivers, creating test systems, and producing embedded middleware should be reusable on our smartphone systems," has me concerned that they aren't too far along with their phone/handheld OS.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
cervezas @ 9/6/2007 3:11:18 PM # Q
Oh, you mean those 200-PDA customers?

I personally have several thousand. Some include international relief organizations like American Red Cross, the Center for Disease Control and the World Health Organization (a lot of this is epidemiology-related, AIDS research, etc.) Others are large contractors to the US military, and outfits like the US Geological Survey. I've written Palm OS software that was used in relief operations in natural disasters zones like Aceh, Indonesia after the tsunami and for unexploded ordnance cleanup operations in places like Iraq. A few of my clients have entire businesses that are based on Palm OS software.

And I'm just one developer among thousands of others.

Why don't you talk about something you know something about, for once, SV?

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 3:20:51 PM # Q
Okay - several thousand then.

PALM would be stupid beyond belief to pursue those several thousand sales continued indirect business by wasting resources on a PalmOS emulator.

Let's see what they do.

They've obviously made stupid mistakes before - let's see if they do again.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
hkklife @ 9/6/2007 3:20:57 PM # Q
Wow, David, I had no idea that so many firms were still so deeply entrenched in the Palm e-CON-omy! Do you know offhand how/if these firms plan to continue for the forseeable future? I mean, do they have enough units stockpiled to continue indefinitely with their same applications?

Or do they plan to buy a ton of E2's & TX's soon and hope their legacy apps run on OS 5.4.9? Or do they try to (expensively) deploy Treos for future needs?

Have they looked to niche providers such as Janam? I SHUDDER to think at how folks working in the "field" would fare with anything running Palm OS that's not ruggedized. I have a hard enough time nursing my Treos & Palm PDAs through the rigors of (very delicate) daily use and the occasional drop!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 3:23:49 PM # Q
Giggle.

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
hkklife @ 9/6/2007 3:31:47 PM # Q
Another Beersie question:

let's just play pretend for a moment and say Palm announced new PDAs tomorrow. Nothing fancy, just improved versions of the current Garnet line.

Would you anticipate "good things" for Pikesoft business as a result of replacement devices definitely being available for the next few years (at least for some of your clients)? Or do you suspect that most of them are looking to eventually replace their custom POS-based solutions with something else due to the uncertainty and age of the platform?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
cervezas @ 9/6/2007 4:50:21 PM # Q
I can't comment on the confidential plans of our licensees. (I've always wanted to say that!)

But for most of the recent customers the software we developed for them runs in a virtual machine that also happens to run on Windows Mobile and Symbian devices. Some of these apps have native libraries that are Palm OS-specific, which would have to be rewritten for the software to run in one of those platforms. And several of the big customers use HotSync conduits that would have to be rewritten. So, the fact that we use "managed code" (Java) affords them only partial protection in the event the Garnet APIs went away. Most likely, a bunch of the PDA customers would go with Janam or Aceeca devices (some already have for the ruggedness) which would let them continue to use the same software. As a general rule, businesses are conservative and like to stick with something that works, especially if they paid good money to have it developed custom. So unless they're looking for big feature changes anyway, they're far more likely to look for ways to stay on with the Palm OS than to ante up for a port to another platform. Interestingly, I've seen very low adoption by my clients of non-Palm Windows Mobile devices like HTC and HP, despite the fact that we tell them we can support them completely if requested.

Would Pikesoft get more business now if Palm released new PDAs tomorrow? Probably not. But I bet Palm would get some--from Pikesoft customers and those of other companies like ours. I also think the Centro could sell well into customers like ours. A lot of organizations and companies just can't see giving pricey Treos to employees who work in rough places like the cabs of dump trucks, construction sites, factory floors, or the streets of Nairobi. They don't want a rugged smartphone so much as they want one that's disposable. For example, I probably have more users on Z22s than any other PDA because customers that deploy a lot of PDAs are sensitive about the cost. They know they're going to get broken and lost.

Actually, if I haven't mentioned it yet, my personal involvement with Pikesoft is going to be much less now that I've taken a new full-time position (see new sig below). The details of how that shakes out with the company are still being worked out, but we're taking care that it doesn't impact any of our clients. I'm really stoked to be moving over to the consumer mobile software space and helping MapQuest create new wireless software products to improve on those being developed by Google and Yahoo. (Heh, no pressure there, right?) Anyway, it won't by any means be "goodbye" to working with Palm devices, but it will mean that I'll have a broader platform focus including Java ME, BREW, and BlackBerry.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
freakout @ 9/6/2007 7:54:41 PM # Q
^^ Kudos on the new position, Beersie - and good luck!

twrock:
I was being yanked around by Palm AsiaPacific's incredibly horrendous warranty/repair system. I had little choice unless I just wanted to give up.

Palm Asia-Pacific were actually a helluva lot more helpful to me than Palm US. When my 680's headphone jack crapped out on me barely a month after I'd bought it, Palm US were totally useless. Essentially they said "We're not ready to repair 680s yet. Come back later." (I'd bought my 680 via the States so I could get the red one, not to mention a much better price.) So, I rang Palm Australia instead. They had a courier at my door to pick it up the very next day, sent it back to the States and three weeks later I had my replacement. Friendly and professional every step of the way.

So the lesson is: buy from the US, repair via AsiaPacific. ;)

RE: Is Combee telling the truth?
twrock @ 9/6/2007 8:28:36 PM # Q
I happened to be in the US just at one of the times that my "refurbished" TX went bad. Palm USA listened to my sad tale, and based on the number of TX's that I had needed to replace in under a year, issued me a new TX. Unfortunately it didn't come with the Asian ROM (no Chinese). They said they couldn't flash it with the Asian ROM; those units were only available via Palm AsiaPacific. Palm AsiaPacific doesn't have the same policies about issuing a new unit after too many faulty ones for one customer. So I once again got stuck with a refurb that lasted until just after the warranty expired. So for me, I do not want to deal with Palm AsiaPacific at all, ever.


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Reply to this comment

Foleo: How to know if it was worthy.

VampireLestat @ 9/5/2007 10:03:20 AM # Q
The real way to know if the Foleo was meant to be a great and needed product is as follows:

To each and everyone of you out there right now; if I offered you a FREE Foleo, how would you react/feel?

- If you feel excitement.
- If you start having ideas on how to use it.
- If you become anxious for its delivery.

Then you know the Foleo is a good idea.

PDA-killer Colligan with all his past decisions (WM adoption, backstabbing PDA loyalists, allowing monstrous QA issues slip by, allowing T5/TX sidegrades/downgrades, etc) has confused us all to the point of no longer knowing what actually is good or useful anymore.

I think it is time for the board to start considering asking Colligan for his resignation. Or for him to leave on his own. He has his millions, so perhaps he could do us a favor and retire. Give someone else a chance.

Foleo II: The Wrath Of Hawkins
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 10:46:18 AM # Q
Would would a Hawkins-inspired revamp of the Foleo - without Palm's influence be?

1980's laptop design with a real keyboard :)
17" screen - 640 x 480 resolution?
100 mhz. Dragonball processor
64 meg. of RAM.
.
.
.
.
Seriously though, what would make a compelling Foleo II - both hardware and software?

RE: Foleo: How to know if it was worthy.
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 11:57:42 AM # Q
Typo ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHAT would

RE: Foleo: How to know if it was worthy.
hkklife @ 9/6/2007 11:24:21 AM # Q
A compelling Fooleo II worthy of Hawkins' original Pilot magic?

Simple:

-Small tablet design (a bit larger larger than a TX and smaller than a Newton). Maybe slightly-more-than-LifeDrive-sized but with a larger screen and thinner. Heck, something along the lines of the Zodiac FF & size might even work! Actually a scren the size of the Zod's would be ideal.

-A screen resolution of at LEAST 320x480. Screen brightness/quality/tint needs to be consistent, uniform, and of decent quality (ie no cloudy yellow LCDs

-Removable high-capacity battery of at least 1800mAh

-NO CELLULAR VOICE FUNCTIONALITY/phone app etc. This just confuses the user and muddles the concise focus of the device. VOIP is fine but this is a DATA/MEDIA device. If voice functionality MUST be present then have it done solely via BT headset. No one wants to hold a tablet device to the side of their head!

-No standard keyboard. TWO optional keyboards can be offered: a clip-on thumboard (like what Palm tried with the i705 years ago) and the superb Palm folding Bluetooth keyboard already on the market. Heck, it might be nice to see a another BT keyboard accessory offered by Palm that's larger-than-Treo but smaller than the current Palm folding board.

-Minimum 8gb internal flash memory with TWO SDIO SDHC slots (or at least one SDHC & one SDIO).

-802.11g + BT 2.0 1/ A2DP And 3.5mm stereo headphone jack with decent quality components (amp, jack etc).

-Graffiti 1 standard or offered via a $20 downloadable, standard, supported and rock-solid plugin. Let the user toggle between classic G1, "enhanced" G1 or G2.

-Large library of bundled, high-quality apps with the ability to update the versions in ROM without gobbling up precious main memory.

-Plenty of codecs supported OUT OF THE BOX. This thing will have to be a UMPC/tablet competitor as well as an iPhone/iPod Touch competitor, remember.

-Finally, offer two versions of the above: one with BT & wi-fi that's sold at retail for $299ish and another (maybe only sold on palm.com or via the carier stores) with wi-fi and an EVDO radio (sorry, GSM users).

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Foleo: How to know if it was worthy.
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:37:50 PM # Q
No. What you've specced is crap.

Reply to this comment

Foleo collectors, start your engines

mikecane @ 9/5/2007 10:53:45 AM # Q
I wouldn't put it past Palm to try to rewrite history ala Oceania. So, if you had any interest in the Foleo, better hop over to YouTube and snag all the videos that are there before Palm pulls a DMCA takedown.

(I think all the fondle photos on sites are safe, btw.)

Reply to this comment

iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff!!

hkklife @ 9/5/2007 1:49:04 PM # Q
iPod touch was just released.....and it HAS wi-fi! A poor man's version of this COULDA & SHOULDA been the LifeDrive 2/TX 2 and should have been released a YEAR or more ago! Apple at least realizes that NOT everyone needs or wants a phone/data plan/monthly charges. An iPod can be used brilliantly without ever spending a single dime on iTunes or it can be fed ONLY music from iTunes.

The Visor Edge or especially the m500 formfactors would make an IDEAL basis for such a device while still preserving Palm's design identity. Ideo's Palm V is an absolutely classic icon of industrial design and engineering.


Yesterday's Fooleo news and today's iPod announcement (combined with the iPhone launch, good bad & otherwise) should serve as a swift 1-2 kick in the arse to clean house at Palm and start building compelling products again. The black Centro is a very, very, very small step in the right direction but it's at least a start.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: iPod Touch
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 1:52:11 PM # Q
Not only that:

UNCONFIRMED: A reader just bought the 8GB iPhone for $399 and 4GB iPhone for $299 in an Apple store just now. Possible price drop?

http://live.gizmodo.com/

R.I.P. Palm.

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
rmhurdman @ 9/5/2007 2:16:02 PM # Q
A phoneless iPhone! Perfect for those who don't need a phone. And it's perfect in one other aspect for what it leaves out...
a mobile companion!
Why couldn't Palm have done this, years ago? A PDA that works. And does internet. And music. WITH A 3.5mm JACK!

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff!!
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 2:19:59 PM # Q
Aside from 8/16GB onboard storage, no stylus, and the usual questionable software choices (no cut'n paste etc) that can (and likely will) be easily fixed, how does the iPod touch differ from a conventional PDA*?

The LOGICAL next step for Palm would have been to meld the T5's onboard flash memory with the TX's stability & wi-fi with the LifeDrive's screen rotate button and "gigs" of storage.

Despite the continued failings & limitations of FrankenGarnet, Palm could (and again, SHOULD) have partnered up with PalmSource/Access to rewrite Palm Desktop & Hotsync from the GROUND UP sometime between 2003 and 2006 to have much tighter multimedia integration and online connectivity. A built-in browser with easy one-click downloading, installing, and browsing of new software titles, music, video etc. could have all been done on the PC side of things via Palm Desktop and done wonders to extend the capabilities of a conventional Palm "PDA". Built a robust enough desktop component ala iTunes and it doesn't mattter if it's mated to a Fooleo, a Treo, a Centro or a plain jane PDA.

Throw in CDMA Bluetooth phone connectivity and a constantly updated list of phone drivers and Palm, even under Garnet, could have been within shouting distance of Apple, oh, ONE TO TWO years ago. It'd be easier to start off a "mobile phone companion" line with a handful of solid PDAs and grow them into larger tablet-style devices before eventually smoothly seguing into a Fooleo. Instead Palm jumps willy-nilly from large-screened PDAs to small-screened smartphones to clunky subnotebooks then back to tiny-screened smartphones.

*=For the record, I consider a PDA anything with a touch screen & data input capabilities that does not need/want a recurring monthly subscription to some kind of VOICE network. I consider data-centric cellular devices like the Tungsten W to still be PDAs, btw but Treos/Centros are indeed smartphones.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Gekko, dude, you're getting an IPHONE!!!!
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 2:22:22 PM # Q
iPhone price drop CONFIRMED.

Suddenly, Palm Treo sales drop to -- oh -- about ZERO!

And that Centro? Bueller? Bueller?

At this point, to me anyway, it looks like Palm killed the ONE thing they actually had a POSSIBILITY of selling: FOLEO.

I mean, really, do ANY of you expect Palm to come up with something to be the 1-2 punch of iPhone-iTunes? Even if they did an exact frikkin iPhone clone, they have NO iTunes Store.

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 2:24:49 PM # Q
Ah, the typo trips me up again:

>>>to be the 1-2 punch

to BEAT the 1-2 punch

Geez.

*8GB* for $399
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 2:31:51 PM # Q
That's what the iPhone with EIGHT GIGS of storage now costs.

And the Foleo had WHAT FRACTION of a gig storage?! For WHAT price again?!

Oh yeah -- $599 with a go-scratch-your-ass-for-it-ever-showing-up $100 rebate.

This is so sad.

For Palm, that is.

For Apple, YIPPEE!

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff!!
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 2:33:20 PM # Q
That's it! Unless Cowon comes out with an iAudio X7 within, oh, the next 4 weeks packing at least an 80GB HD, I am probably going to give in to the dark side and buy the 160GB iPod Classic. I'd rather buy someone else's mp3 player but EVERYONE has thrown in the towel for hard drive-based mp3 players (I don't want a bulky, just a pocketable music player than can play a video once in a while).

Now, can someone point me in the right direction on how to use the an iPod without ever having to touch iTunes? RockBox? Elphpod? I want a UMS-style portable hard drive that plays MP3s & MPEGs without any kind of DRM/check-in, check-out/proprietary drivers etc.

I don't care a HOOT about iTunes etc and (other than PDA software and Steam games on my PC), I refuse to buy anything that can be purchased on physical media. Save for a handful of live gig type mp3's I've downloaded, I ONLY buy physical CDs and rip them at my preferred bitrate/format.

P.S. Why doe Apple have such an aversion to memory card slots and built-in FM tuners? An SDHC slot (or even a mini or micro) would make an iPod any SDHC-sporting digital camera user's best friend. I mean, I'm sure they figure any kind of memory expanion via flash cards would seriously cut into the sales of upgraded models but still...

And sure, terrestrial radio stations suck but it's nice to be able to catch news or a ballgame or the occasional NPR station without fumbling with any external dongles etc.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 2:41:55 PM # Q
>>>I refuse to buy anything that can be purchased on physical media.

Same para:

>>>I ONLY buy physical CDs and rip them at my preferred bitrate/format.

Huh? I think you mean you refuse to buy thing that CAN'T be purchased as CDs. Well, here's sad news. Jobs reported today that ONE-THIRD of all music published is now "ethereal" -- never put on CD! Believe me, I don't like hearing that, either. I tend to rip above 128K myself.

>>>P.S. Why doe Apple have such an aversion to memory card slots and built-in FM tuners? An SDHC slot (or even a mini or micro) would make an iPod any SDHC-sporting digital camera user's best friend. I mean, I'm sure they figure any kind of memory expanion via flash cards would seriously cut into the sales of upgraded models but still...

You forget the environment Apple had to work in to get where it is today. They had to absolutely insure record labels that piracy with the iPod would be hard as hell. Thus, you cannot plug an iPod into a friend's PC and upload your library. Thus, no storage slots for dropping music onto to easily share. Look at the crap they're taking from NBC, with NBC wanting even *more* DRM.

As for playing MPEGs on an iPod, forget that, son. It's MP4 H.264 only. Go download Handbrake (I think it's bisexual -- PC *and* Mac) to convert, convert, convert.

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff!!
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 2:49:47 PM # Q
Yes, Mike, that was a typo due to trying to pick up my jaw up off the floor. That's not a 1-2 punch from Apple today.....that's a 1-2-3-4 sies of punches and counting.

Of course I meant nothing that I cannot purchase on CD. Thanks for the tips. While I've intently watched Apple's hardware moves over the past few years I'd paid precious little attention to supported formats etc.

Oh I like to rip WELL above 128k for everything. I have no intentions of slapping on an eye patch and starting to pirate music. I just want to go on a trip and travel light and be able to dump my digicam pics onto, say, an iPod (one of the main reasons I bought TWO LifeDrives back in '05) and the only way to easily do that would be via an integrated slot. Aren't there little USB To Go boxes that can be used to dump camera photos onto an iPod?

I just like the flexibility of not having to fool around with any propriety rubbish (Ron, no Windows lectures please!). My old X5 had lovely UMS mass storage device compliance and I could plug it into ANYTHING--PCs from Win 2k onward, Macs, Linux boxees etc.

Besdies, I buy a TON of used music (much easier on the wallet) as the local shops now have new albums selling used the same week they are released. And much of the obscure/foreign stuff I like is out of print anyway, so I have no choice BUT to buy it used.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
jca666us @ 9/5/2007 2:58:47 PM # Q
Apple is very competitive; they are the anti-Palm.

While Palm is foundering with Foleo, Apple is releasing new products at aggressive price points.

What's the comparable Treo you can get for the $399 the 8 gig. iphone now costs?

Centro anyone?



RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 3:02:36 PM # Q
Nope, no way that I know of to drop piccies into an iPod without using a PC/Mac as intermediary. Maybe there's some obscure box out there, but I've never seen it. But I haven't paid attention, either. Check out iLounge and sites like that. They'd know.

Well, you can play *MP3s* on an iPod, at least. No need to re-rip your music to AAC format. Just be aware that iPod quoted battery life is based on 128K rips. Higher rips = faster battery drain. (But that's true of all players.)

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff!!
pmjoe @ 9/5/2007 3:09:31 PM # Q
Now, can someone point me in the right direction on how to use the an iPod without ever having to touch iTunes? RockBox? Elphpod? I want a UMS-style portable hard drive that plays MP3s & MPEGs without any kind of DRM/check-in, check-out/proprietary drivers etc.

I don't care a HOOT about iTunes etc and (other than PDA software and Steam games on my PC), I refuse to buy anything that can be purchased on physical media. Save for a handful of live gig type mp3's I've downloaded, I ONLY buy physical CDs and rip them at my preferred bitrate/format.


What's wrong with iTunes? It's free, and I use it to rip my CDs to mp3's (it's fairly automatic and you set the bitrate in the preferences). There's no DRM involved unless you've purchased DRM'd content. I only buy physical CDs and think iTunes is great.


RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
palmato @ 9/5/2007 3:42:05 PM # Q
I think winamp can rip to the ipod ans supports enhanced aac+ (I use it for my SE phone)

On the subject of the ipod touch. It shows how much palm has lost touch not just with its customers, but with the industry they are in. Guidance for the next quarter will reveal what their chances of survival 2008 are, however decent numbers won't be a fix for lack of ideas.


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 4:12:36 PM # Q
Yeah, I'd use iTunes to rip. That's what I use now, even without having an iPod (dammit, do I get a nano or go for the full iPhone now?!!). I think you can use iTunes as well as any other software that would do what iTunes won't (freely move songs back and forth from PC/Mac to iPod). I don't there'd be a conflict unless you use the other software to move things around so iTunes can't find them.

There was a rumor published here on PIC to expect a Linux-based phone from Palm next month.

What can we really expect other than something with lots of buttons?

Oh, and that Small Square Screen.

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
rmhurdman @ 9/6/2007 1:55:03 PM # Q
Or you could run linux and use amarok or rhythmbox. You could set it up as dual-boot or maybe even in a virtual machine.
iTunes is still the easiest solution and it doesn't force you to use DRM, as other users have noted.

RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff
freakout @ 9/6/2007 7:59:47 PM # Q
^^ iTunes is simple, but it's incredibly bloated and the mp3 ripper is completely shithouse - especially at the default quality settings.
RE: iPod touch? Palm has squandered ELEVEN years of 'touch' stuff!!
hkklife @ 9/6/2007 8:44:43 PM # Q
Amen, Tim. Believe it or not, Windows Media Player 11 is a surprisingly decent media player & CD ripper. It's got super-fast CDDB info lookup, good quality fast ripping & encoding, and nicely with the rest of Windows, at least. Windows Media Player has come a LONG way since the dark days of version 9 and earlier...



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Reply to this comment

What the iPhone Just Did

mikecane @ 9/5/2007 2:55:33 PM # Q
RE: What the iPhone Just Did
theog @ 9/5/2007 5:06:12 PM # Q
More self-promotion... lol...

Anyway, the price-cut left no such wake... nice tag to get people over to your forum though.

Vote for John Kerry... best man for the job.

RE: What the iPhone Just Did
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 5:17:22 PM # Q
Well of course it's self-promotion. You failed in my PR and I had to fire your ass.

RE: What the iPhone Just Did
mikecane @ 9/5/2007 5:20:55 PM # Q
Besides, it's also true. Why do you care, anyway. Aren't you using WinMob?

Reply to this comment

The playing field has changed

Dr Opinion @ 9/5/2007 6:10:13 PM # Q
Apple have raised the stakes in a way that is so shocking and dramatic I don't think we've come close to realizing what has happened. The $299 8GB iPod Touch kills every PDA that was ever built to date. Cold. The iPhone is everything the Treo wanted to be in 2009.

For Palm to have a viable business in 2 years time, they need to compete, not with some defective-by-design horrorshow wincephone, but with Apple, the undisputed master of design. When the iPhone was released, everything changed at Palm.

An OS that is "adequate to beat nokias and wincephones" isn't enough for Palm to survive anymore. It's that simple. I'm impressed that Palm realized that, that they didn't put their head in the sand and putter on with business-as-usual. This could well be due to the new direction they are receiving from their "investors". :)

Palm has one shot at getting this right. Just one. The need to batten down the hatches and totally focus on the new platform. If it isn't *Unbelievably Excellent* (tm) Palm will not survive. Period.

The good news? Wincephone already dead. It can't possibly compete. Hasta la vista. :D


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: The playing field has changed
Gekko @ 9/5/2007 6:15:34 PM # Q

it's too late for palm.



RE: The playing field has changed
Poopie @ 9/5/2007 6:42:21 PM # Q

Palm has one shot at getting this right. Just one. The need to batten down the hatches and totally focus on the new platform. If it isn't *Unbelievably Excellent* (tm) Palm will not survive. Period.

They could go roll over in front of Google, take some nice import iphone-clone hardware, and make a/the g-phone.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: The playing field has changed
T_W @ 9/5/2007 6:44:22 PM # Q
Reminder: PC guys can't make a phone... or a PDA either. Just as Ed.

While Apple has been wasting time on WiFi, multi-touch, cover-flow, a Unix-based multitasking OS, landscape mode operations and a desktop-class web browsing experience, Palm has channeled some real innovative juices into extracting the antenna from the Treo 600 form factor.

RE: The playing field has changed
twrock @ 9/5/2007 9:29:47 PM # Q
The $299 8GB iPod Touch kills every PDA that was ever built to date. Cold. The iPhone is everything the Treo wanted to be in 2009.

The $299 8GB iPod Touch is what should have been released by Palm as the TX2 a year ago. Only it should have had a SDHC slot in addition to 2+GB built-in memory (and if necessary, regularly updated to accept the biggest capacity cards even before they were released). Honestly, Palm just needed to do exactly what we were begging them to do for the last three years: give us a modern PDA based on upgraded TX specs with mic, vibrating alarm, LED, a couple of gigs of storage and a SDHC slot. This was such a no-brainer that whomever made the decision not to do it should be looking for a job right now.

(Incidentally, Palm should seriously consider going back to the glass digitizers as well; I would recommend it.)

"The iPhone is everything [I wanted] the Treo ... to be in [2006]." Except that I wanted to be able to really run third-party apps instead of having to work within the confines of what Uncle Steve thinks I should be using. (Yeah, this Apple thing does look a little "cultish" sometimes.)

This is the second time in a year that Apple has come along and offered a product that is so very close to what we were asking for that it is almost ironic. What, is Apple reading PIC (and other Palm sites) and actually listening, but Palm can't be bothered? Palm, what is your problem already?

Just so that you don't have to go back and look it up, the people around here have been asking for:
1. Updated PDA's (maybe only two?) with great multimedia capability (Apple just did it, so don't go telling us there isn't a market)
2. PDA-centric smartphone; in other words an iPhone with Palm OS (HTC is already making the WinMob versions, so don't bother)
3. Smartphones with Wifi
4. Yes, don't kill your Treo design; it's good, but it's not the "only thing", although working to get it thinner would be a great goal
5. At least consider something as different as a clamshell smartphone
6. Extremely easy to use desktop software to take care of media synchronization
7. And stop scrimping on the hardware specs!!!! Less memory, no mic, no vibrating alarm, no LED in the TX is a good example of what not to do. You can cut all that stuff out of your Zire or TE2, but not the top of the line stuff. We all know that adding those features (honestly, "not removing" would be more accurate) would have raised the device cost only a tiny fraction. Penny wise and pound foolish. Stop shooting yourselves in the foot.

Hmm, did I miss anything?


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: The playing field has changed
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 9:53:59 PM # Q
Ok, so today we have seen several interesting things:


1. The release of a tablet-style, keyboard-less, 320x480 "PDA PMP" with 8 or 16GB onboard with an emphasis on multimedia without sacrificing wi-fi. Only problem is that it was released by Palm & not Apple.

2. A true "Mobile Manager" from Apple. 80 & 160GB is enough to carry my whole digital life around with me. Even in 2005, 4GB on a LifeDrive Microdrive was a joke.

3. Two conventional PDAs from HP, as well as a 3rd GPS-oriented PDA. Not smartphones, pure *PDA*s.

Meanwhile, Palm counters by cancelling a product that never should have gotten past the conceptual stages in its current form. Ron's right on the money...even a mildly refreshed TX2 with 2gb onboard, higher capacity battery, SDHC slot, and a charge LED & voice recorder would've been SOMETHING to keep Palm in the game.

By the way, here's a few more items you forgot to add on your list:

8. Don't be laggard in supporting the new desktop OS of one of your main OS provders/partners. The near-year it took to release even a barebones beta version of the Palm Desktop for Vista is INEXCUSABLE.

9. Pay Xerox whatever they want and license the Graffiti 1 libraries. Charge the customer for them and we'll willingly pay...but again, not EVERYONE wants a thumboard or G2. It'd be like if the PC industry decided to drop QWERTY in favor of DVORAK keyboards overnight and change to a new type of USB or PS/2 connector incompatible with QWERTY boards.

10. Don't try to force us into Treos. Start offering legitimate CDMA BT DUN connectivity on all of your handhelds. Some people prefer to carry a tiny dumbphone and a conventional PDA. Rigorously develop and release updated phone drivers/init strings for bth GSM & CDMA handsets.

11. Work with your bundled software providers to offer ROM updaters (not RAM-hogging updates) for their apps. If I pay $40 for PTunes then I'd at least like to see it overwrite the one in ROM, ok?

12. Improve your quality control big time! We cannot have another T|T, T5, LifeDrive 650, 700pesque debacle on our hands!

13. SDHC is an ideal format from a speed/capacity/compatibility/cost standpoint. Commit to this and do not deviate from it unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Had the Fooleo launched, Palm would have had a lineup confusingly containing 4 (5 if you count SD & SDHC separately) different flash card formats. That's at least 3 too many!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: The playing field has changed
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 6:43:31 AM # Q
> ...Start offering legitimate CDMA BT DUN connectivity on all
> of your handhelds. Some people prefer to carry a tiny dumbphone
> and a conventional PDA....

Yeah, like he said!

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796

Giggle.

[I know, I know, I'm a broken record...for like almost 5 years now!]

RE: The playing field has changed
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:39:49 PM # Q
>>>Reminder: PC guys can't make a phone... or a PDA either. Just as Ed.

Oh, I just saw that. ROTFLMAO!!!

Reply to this comment

Copeland, Cobalt, Foleo

Gekko @ 9/5/2007 6:13:30 PM # Q

nice.

Reply to this comment

So I browse over to PalmInfocenter to see IPod touch reaction

T_W @ 9/5/2007 6:37:26 PM # Q
So I browser over to Palm Infocenter to see what the IPod touch reaction is an I see this.

Palm's timing could not be more perfect. This was like putting the original Foleo announcement up against the iPhone and Microsoft Surface.

Only this one is even more humiliating in that it reeks of "asleep at the wheel" and "we don't know what the hell we are doing".

How the hell did this company ever manage to get out of its own way enough to release the original Pilot and the Palm Vx?

I wonder how much Normsoft and the other ISV's squandered on this little misadventure.

...and of course, I still cannot get modern wifi-enabled PDA from Palm. Luckily, Apple seems to be offering me one.



iIPod touch reaction
gatezone @ 9/5/2007 10:59:45 PM # Q
The iPod Touch only needs a calendar, email client, and a few wigits to be fine, and at 399 for 16Mb it blows Palm out of the water, even with all the eccentric little apps that work on Palm, or sort of work on Palm.

I feel like I'm witnessing the slow public death of Palm. Watching what Apple is doing with the iPod touch and the iPhone makes my 680 seem very lame, slow, etc. I still like a keyboard, but I stopped by an Apple store a few miles away and played with the virtual keyboard for awhile and it was better than I thought. With the price dropping $200 on the 8Gb phone - I'm already with ATT... it almost becomes a no-brainer. If I wait another six months the iphone will be up to 16gb and have better Exchange connections. I helped set up 20+ iPhones for one of my clients and it worked pretty well, as is, with the Exchange server.

I see the 'headlines' here at PIC about weather applications and other pretty lame software applications and I feel like I'm going back in time. Not a bad thing for someone my age, but even at my advanced years I'd rather look forward to a sleek device with wifi and a browser other than freaking Blazer.... GZ

RE: So I browse over to PalmInfocenter to see IPod touch reaction
T_W @ 9/5/2007 11:13:09 PM # Q
The iPod touch seems to have a calendar and a contacts app.

http://images.apple.com/ipodtouch/gallery/images/03_large20070905.jpg

As to email, GMail within Safari will probably work better than VersaMail and its routine self-corruptuon

RE: So I browse over to PalmInfocenter to see IPod touch reaction
hkklife @ 9/5/2007 11:53:00 PM # Q
Anyone know if the Touch has a calculator?

And how does iTunes handle importing Palm Contacts fields? And Palm Datebook/Calendar entries?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: So I browse over to PalmInfocenter to see IPod touch reaction
Ryan @ 9/6/2007 12:00:56 AM # Q
From the pics it seems the itouch has a calc app. I bet it won't be too long before hacker get all the missing iPhone apps and hacked third party iphone apps going on the touch.

I'm not sure how it works on windows, but with Mac OS X - you can setup the Palm Desktop and Hotsync app to work with the built in iSync to get all of your palm os data into the Mac Contacts and iCal. It's worked well for ages, I personally ditched the mac palm desktop years ago for this solution.

RE: So I browse over to PalmInfocenter to see IPod touch reaction
Poopie @ 9/6/2007 12:05:49 AM # Q

Anyone know if the Touch has a calculator?

Yes. From the pic here: http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/ipod-touch-gets-official/
the iPod touch will have: Safari web browser, you tube app, Calendar, contacts, clock, calculator, iPod, photo gallery, itunes online store.

It's unclear to me if it will have a camera, and it's sort of notably missing google maps as well, but other than that, it's like an iphone without a phone.


And how does iTunes handle importing Palm Contacts fields? And Palm Datebook/Calendar entries?

iTunes doesn't. iTunes syncs with iCal on Mac, and Outlook 2003 or 2007 or Yahoo Addressbook on Windows. That's it. Oh, how I hope a future version of iTunes at least syncs with Google Calendar.

In the meantime, check this out:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/addressbook/autosync/

Yahoo adressbook autosync will allow you to do a sync from palm desktop or outlook to yahoo calendar. That at least provides a simple mechanism for moving your data our of Palm desktop to Outlook or online to Yahoo desktop.



USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

Reply to this comment

Bookend for my Audrey

greghoro @ 9/5/2007 11:58:48 PM # Q
Damn, I had a nice place all picked out for my Foleo, right next to my Audrey.

RE: Bookend for my Audrey
gatezone @ 9/6/2007 1:15:07 PM # Q
Hilarious... shades of Netpliance.

If it all wasn't so hilarious it would be assinine.

I went out recently and bought a new iMac put VM Fusion on it to run Windows, if it weren't for Apple we'd be stuck with Windows and Palm, They/Apple are the only useful innovators that actually produce revolutionary leaps in design and functionality. Apple is a cult, but I'm thinking about joining. GZ

Reply to this comment

Beers : New OS->Foleo

mikecane @ 9/6/2007 9:30:39 AM # Q
OK, let's say the rumor about a Linux-based phone (of *some* sort) is coming out from Palm next month (10/07).

What amount of work would be required to coat that with the Foleo UI to create the FII? (Look at that fast enough and it looks like FU!).

(Let's set aside the fact they have to got back and redo the Foleo's guts -- some *real* amount of storage -- especially with the *GBs* Apple now offers for a song!)

How long for that software to be remasked?

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
palmato @ 9/6/2007 9:48:17 AM # Q
You know that this kind of questions can *barely* be answered by those who are working on the project?

Based on what I read around, I doubt there is anything really reusable from the Fooleo project. What Combee mentioned is mostly spinning, no tangible stuff. The Fooleo was a waste of time and money, things that obviously abound at palm.


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
cervezas @ 9/6/2007 11:50:03 AM # Q
Sorry Mike, I can't really say any more about it than Ben, and for the same reason.

@palmato: My impression is that one of the reasons for pulling the Foleo team members off their project and bringing them over to the smartphone OS project is that they had been so successful in doing some of the kinds of things that Palm needs done on the new OS. I don't need to tell anyone here that smartphones are the top priority at Palm. It's easy to underestimate the enduring value of what that team did in terms of devising solutions and strategies for addressing the many points where embedded Linux is lacking as the basis of a system that modernizes the Palm OS experience without losing its virtues.

Even so, there's a tragic amount of waste, no question. Getting to the point where you've locked down the APIs for an entire custom application framework and developed a full SDK requires a huge amount of non-reusable effort if you're not going to use those APIs now. The extent of the loss will be better understood when we see what Palm has cooked up for the unified smartphone/foleo II operating system.


David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:43:48 PM # Q
Beers, must I slap you around for being stupid? OF COURSE you can damn well answer that question. I did not ask for any Palm inside info. That was a general programming question that happened to use the current mess as an example.

Now give.

I know nothing about coding except everything seems to take frikkin man-months.

And has Palm been using The Dilbert Method?

http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2814760070903.gif

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
cervezas @ 9/6/2007 1:54:06 PM # Q
Sorry. It's not a general programming question and I can assure you it *does* depend on undisclosed aspects of what Palm is doing (most of which has not been disclosed to me except in a very, very general way).

The one thing I will say is that using the Foleo really reminds me (in the good ways) of using Palm OS. The way menus work, the way the system enables fast switching between applications. And many novel design decisions seem like they would make good sense if running on a small screen device (I'm thinking of the scrollwheel and the "right/left" buttons in particular). Which is to say, that if these are design features of the next-gen smartphones, they could map closely to hardware and software features we saw in Foleo I.

That Dilbert is going on a wall here, by the way. Thanks! :-)

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 4:46:21 PM # Q
Oh yes it *is* a general programming question.

Let me put it in general terms so it will drill down:

Hardware has gotten powerful enough that XP can now be run on palmtops. But MS finally gets wise and decides that XP needs a different UI for palmtops (it does!).

Now, XP is all finished, done, as an OS. It just needs that new palmtop-friendly makeup.

Now how long does a project like THAT take?

Do you get it now?

And yes, it has begun to sink in to *my* brain the features Hawkins (or whoever) designed into the Foleo. I still think the single browser window, single D2G document open is crap, however. Unrealistic and constraining. But so was the built-in memory, which was the first mistake.

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
mikecane @ 9/7/2007 9:09:24 AM # Q
So Beers goes south. Bah!

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
cervezas @ 9/7/2007 10:16:41 AM # Q
It all depends, Mike. On about a thousand different things. Most of which I don't know.

You sound like one of my product managers right now, which is annoying me, ok? :-)

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Beers : New OS->Foleo
mikecane @ 9/7/2007 5:02:33 PM # Q
Your reply is unacceptable. FAIL!

BTW, good luck at your new job.

Reply to this comment

I'm glad...

EricsProjects @ 9/6/2007 10:10:58 AM # Q
I am glad that the product was canceled. When I first saw the Foleo I thought they had lost their minds. I know that they don't want to compete with their own product lines, but that is exactly what they need to do.

I find it quite interesting the direction the company has taken. Many years ago, some of their engineers left and started Handspring. Handspring created this great product called the Treo. Palm purchased Handspring and now the Treo is their leading product.

Palm isn't creating great products anymore because they don't want to cut into their own sales; unfortunately for them, everyone else is. They don't need to make a new product that makes the Treo better. They need to make a product that's better than the Treo and the Pocket PC. They need to get the Treo users to upgrade and get Pocket PC users to switch. At this point it will have to compete with the iPhone also.

One thing that Apple got right with the iPhone is the fact that it runs the same OS as the desktop. Microsoft got this wrong. The Pocket PC OS is different than the desktop OS. If Palm could create a Linux phone, that ran standard desktop Apps, it might save them.

For a long time, I didn't believe that the Palm management had the vision to do what it needed to do. By canceling this product they have restored my faith. A little anyway...

~Eric * Palm IIIxe -> Palm m505 -> Treo 650

RE: I'm glad...
mikecane @ 9/6/2007 12:46:08 PM # Q
>>>If Palm could create a Linux phone, that ran standard desktop Apps, it might save them.

Hello, that's what Nokia and its fugly Maemo tried. FAIL!

You don't know the meaning of the word torment until you've tried AbiWord on a Nokia Anti-Internet Tablet!

Lunix wasn't the point.
EricsProjects @ 9/7/2007 4:02:28 PM # Q
Creating a device better than the Treo was the point, not using Linux. And if you are running AbiWord on anything other than real desktop computer you are clearly a masochist, and I could direct you to some more appropriate web forums...

HTC Shift, IPod ITouch, those are the devices to watch.

~Eric

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FINAL YEAR

tryingtoquit @ 9/6/2007 10:19:52 AM # Q
Wow what a run it has been as I went through seven stand alone pdas over the last six years. Batteries died and I told my wife replacement cost was prohibitive. Lost one in the Gulf of Mexico and another in the bay at Nevarre. My wife washed one and so was happy to agree to its successor. I never was too upset because there was always something exciting waiting to be bought. Now I just replaced my TX with another TX and that wasn't so fun. That snob Culligan is no condecending to stand alone users that he won't even mention us anymore. When you prick us do we not bleed? We just like our grid tethers to be separate from our pdas. I imagine my new TX will last about a year given my track record. And so one last time. Plllllllllleeeeeeeaseee make a TX2.

RE: FINAL YEAR
ExPalmUser2 @ 9/7/2007 10:46:56 AM # Q
Have you considered the HP's new line? They were announced yesterday :P I'm seriously thinking about the 200 series. Multitasking (switching back a forth between programs), 4" VGA, muti-tab browsering, , TTF Unicode text. Can't wait to get rid of Palm. Now even I think I shouldn't have bought the TX in replacement for a dead T3 (battery!), that $300 shouldn't have gone to Palm. (But I was afraid of not having a choice of a better screen and having to stick with 240x320 screens). But now I have! :->
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Theregister (and me) on iPod Touch

Poopie @ 9/7/2007 1:38:15 PM # Q
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/09/07/apple_ipod_touch_coup/


Apple stealthily enters a new market altogether: the connected PDA. This 'Second Box' business is one that almost everyone has neglected, because they've followed the conventional wisdom that Everything Must Be Converged. But what if that isn't true?

Unlike the iPhone, which is locked down at the carrier's request, third-party applications will not be restricted on the Touch. All it's lacking is Bluetooth - which was apparently in early specifications, but didn't make it into version 1.0 - and removable storage.

In short, the Touch brings much of the value proposition of the iPhone to people who are perfectly happy with the phone they've got - or who are locked into a long contract with a network operator.

Don't know if they're pulling the "third party applications will not be restricted on the Touch" part out of their butt... although it kind of makes sense. Apple gets a percentage from the exclusive carriers on the first iPhone for 2 years, delivers a closed experience that keeps the carriers happy and they get their foot in the smartphone door globally, then they release a 'connected PDA' that carriers can't bitch about. Next, take their experience and releases an SDK for app development. Two years passes by in a snap. Apple releases 3rd gen *UNLOCKED* iPhone with 200gb flash and allows 3rd party apps. Everyone loves it, and suddenly Apple has the phone/consumer market share to break the oppressive regime of the US cellular carriers.

Imagine consumers telling their carriers, "I don't want your crap free phone with $2 ringontes, 99 cent per SMS charges, $5 per month crap java app downloads, stupid "fave N" calling plan. I'm going to buy the $COOL_UNLOCKED_APPLE_PHONE for $WHATEVER_IT_COSTS from the Apple store downtown and shop around for the best flat rate plan. What's your best plan?"

I can't wait.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

RE: Theregister (and me) on iPod Touch
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 1:48:26 PM # Q
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Someone in the New York Times says...

SeldomVisitor @ 9/8/2007 6:41:52 PM # Q
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Hmmm...think it was an automated job repost?

SeldomVisitor @ 9/9/2007 5:03:09 PM # Q
RE: Hmmm...think it was an automated job repost?
cervezas @ 9/9/2007 8:25:04 PM # Q
Maybe. Or maybe they are far enough along with the new OS that they can have a few people working on Foleo apps for it.

More interesting still is the number of open engineering positions at Palm that now specify Java experience along with Linux. I count 15 open positions that mention Java posted in the last 5 weeks, not counting the one position for a server side Java developer.

The idea that a future Palm OS might make a Java virtual machine the primary way for apps to access the new OS features seems to fit with some comments that Paul Mercer has made about how a modern OS should not have native C applications "talking to the iron" directly: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8841/#135632

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Hmmm...think it was an automated job repost?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/10/2007 7:52:08 AM # Q
Well, someone elsewhere noted that Palm itself hasn't updated Foleo needs for months, so it does indeed look like a Yahoo-automated "update".

Speaking of Palm itself job posting, however, THIS one:

-- http://recruit.trovix.com/jobhost/jobhost/ViewJobPostDetails.do?jobPostId=615351&action=viewDetails

looks like a fun job.

The low-level of experience required is scary, IMHO, but the job itself has a cool description.

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With this coming soon, why wouldn't...

SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2007 12:52:04 PM # Q
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Backing away from the idea of 'Fooleo, part II'

SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2007 3:31:32 PM # Q
== "...According to Colligan, the Foleo may be on ice, but it’s the
== next generation Palm platform inside of it that the Foleo
== really represented and he said that it is most definitely
== the future for Palm and it will come back but just exactly
== what form factor it comes back in is yet to be decided..."

-- http://blogs.zdnet.com/Berlind/?p=802

RE: Backing away from the idea of 'Fooleo, part II'
SeldomVisitor @ 10/2/2007 7:21:50 AM # Q
Colligan's words even more recently are more than strongly suggesting (*) the idea of Fooleo, part II is deader than a doornail.

============

(*) PALM's overly-secretive nature is a drag.

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It's a good thing they cancelled, too

SeldomVisitor @ 10/5/2007 4:33:37 PM # Q
Because The Competition is amazing:

-- http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/05/pogue-finds-the-olpc-xo-absolutely-amazing/

Of course, you phone might need WiFi to join in on the mesh network this is capable of, that's true, but otherwise - yow!

RE: It's a good thing they cancelled, too
mikecane @ 10/6/2007 11:29:49 AM # Q
Sure, if you don't mind sitting there in public with something that looks like it was made by Fischer-Price!

And that keyboard is not for typing!

The Asus Eee is the killer. I'd like it to have that cheeeeep XO battery!

RE: It's a good thing they cancelled, too
twrock @ 10/6/2007 11:49:48 AM # Q
Make sure you take a very long look at the Eee before you buy one and are disappointed, Mike. There's been some press that suggests it has some of that "toy" factor as well. There are reasons why it is that cheap. Also, the 7 inch screen version is just a bit too small for a laptop, and I fear the small sized keyboard will be a real deal killer. Still, it's hard to say no to something that small and that cheap (although MSRP seems to be rising).


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: It's a good thing they cancelled, too
mikecane @ 10/6/2007 12:11:10 PM # Q
The junkiness aspect of early reports were based on a pre-production model. Models closer to production quality have made it into the hands of Russian and French (!) (pre-)reviewers who have been very impressed with its build quality and software. The only question is the wee keyboard, but I was smart and bought a USB keyboard for the PlayStation 2 while it was still available. Small, light, portable and I could use it with the Eee when I was really going to pound out text.

http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkontherun/2006/08/logitech_playst.html

Also, I've experienced that 7" screen with my many fondles of the Samsung Q1 UMPC. It will do.

http://www.blogeee.net/?p=156

It's the Foleo Killer.

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Ben Combee: The Ideal Foleo

mikecane @ 11/27/2007 2:28:58 PM # Q
>>>I still like the hardware of the Foleo better than the Eee, but having used both, I really want the combination of both -- the Foleo's screen and keyboard (with a few alterations, like adding the Esc key) on top of a x86-compatible chipset so I can easily run the software I want.

http://unwiredben.livejournal.com/263847.html

So, Foleo 2 (the Ersatz Edition) will most likely come from ... Asus! Look ma, no PalmOS!

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