Awww man... you can never escape, can you?

I'm with you on that, Alex. One degree was enough.

While I enjoyed the university life, I hated the schooling part of it. 28 hours a week of lectures, then 8 hours of prac, plus a zillion assignments, writing up lab work, studying... Nope, never again, I said to myself on graduation.

Anyway, I'd run out of money; when I graduated I had $13 left in the bank, with rent, petrol for the car, food, other bills to pay, and that's without life's essentials like beer. I got a job straight away and aside from a bunch of 2 or 3 day courses, I never went back. Had nightmares about studying for 10 years after finishing with uni.

Well yeah, you can be done if you get a real degree like M.E. Myself I didn't do so well as a Physics major and switched to Philosophy. They were next to each other in the course book so I figured everything would transfer over...boy was I wrong!

Got Bs and Cs in Physics/Math...more of the latter, straight As in Philosophy and never went to class when it rained and never went to one class except first day where grade was based entirely on two papers.

The worthless degree (philosophy, speech com, comparative lit, psyche, sociology, etc.) necessitated grad school. And, poor job offers after that necessitated an advanced law degree. Law school was still pretty fun, not as fun as undergrad. The advanced law degree sucked big time.


Worthless undergrad degree because you didn't study enough combined with worse options associated with not going to grad school results in it being the lessor of two evils.

LESSON: Get a real degree...do what it takes...no matter what.

20 years later, I still have nightmares a couple time a year about being unprepared for a test or falling behind in class.

Yeah, that's what my nightmares were about. Odd, because I never failed a test after the common first year (which had maths as a subject and I suck at maths; they let me off because it wasn't necessary for my double major in chem the final 3 years). Stayed well on top of the work, too, in fact it got easier the more I progressed: the jigsaw puzzle of Applied Science was starting to look complete. So I don't know why the nightmares except as a message to stay away.

But I still get the weird dreams about being on campus with no clothes, completely naked... and I hasten to add I never did that in real life, either.

I have never had the naked at school/anywhere dreams.

I assume the not prepared for a test/class as a whole dreams, was due to my feeling guilty about not having done as well as I could have due to lack of discipline and hard work. Weird, that you have the dreams but did do well.

Why can't we have dreams about walking into a test and totally acing it, like it was the simplest thing in the world???

A good point you make. I was a lazy arse who hated study and I was well aware that I could have done better with a bit more application. But I just wanted to get the whole thing over, with the minimum effort, so I could go and earn a decent crust. I didn't want to night-fill at supermarkets (my part-time job while at uni) for the rest of my life. So perhaps the dreams are a guilt trip.


I imagine that the people who enjoy studying, and tests, and lectures, and assignments, and go on to do higher and higher degrees, have exactly these "acing the test" dreams.

Or maybe really really smart people have them. Alex? Michelle? What scholastic dreams do you guys have? And why am I the only non-Moderator in this thread? Anyone else out there want to join in?

Miche, sorry about hijacking your thread...

So, my guilt theory is still alive. I don't have the dreams for other classes that I did well in...it's almost exclusively math. And, I like math! Just didn't do so well at the advanced calculus and differential equations.

I wonder if there is a correlation between my not liking such dreams and the fact that I tend to stay awake until I pass out and thus avoid dreaming or, at least, remembering my dreams? It's 4:04 am for me right now.

Hats off to you for your guilt theory, which sounds plausible, and for being good at many aspects of maths (odd that Americans have it in the singular and Aussies use the plural). I could never get my head around mathematics but I respect people who can. They lost me with solving simultaneous equations, somewhere around the middle of secondary school (Year 10); from thereon it was a mystery. Differential equations -- was that integrals and stuff? And then they introduced imaginary numbers... how about the teachers imagine I passed the exam, huh? I've worked as a scientist for more than a quarter of a century and never used anything beyond early secondary school mathematics in all that time.

It's 4:04 and you've not been asleep? Well, you will dream when asleep, there's no escaping that; if you didn't you would be quite insane by now. Some folk remember them, and some don't. Rich food late at night sets me off, I guess 'cos I wake early, while I'm in REM sleep and thus remember the dream, albeit fleetingly. Chow down on some pizza and a beer or two before hitting the sack at 11 pm and see what happens. You might dream yourself naked on stage at the Academy Awards, or something like that.

Or maybe you'll dream you spent a late night chugging beers and pizza with friends before that really important exam the next morning, for which you hadn't yet studied. That would be sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

What in the hell? Don't you ever call me smart, Steve. I'm a total moron who happens to have a gift for part design and algorithms (yet somehow, I still have yet to ever try a Rubik's Cube!). Back in the early Calculus days, I would understand the theory of how an integral worked, but the reverse power rule algorithm made it simple. And once you learn all of the techniques, it's just a matter of applying it according to all the possible combinations they can throw at you on a test.

I don't quite dream of academics. When I do dream, it's usually something about me off-roading my car into a ditch or off a mountain.

I'm having a very difficult time at school. The problem isn't the fact that I'm not smart enough, it's that I'm not a good enough student. If I don't see a point in doing something a certain way, I just resist it.

Example? Solve this two-parameter Weibull probability density function, evaluate statistical average, mean, and median, and graph ln(-ln(1-F(t))) vs ln(x). Solution? Skip the three pages of Riemann Summation double integration and go directly to Maple 11. Enter the equations, evaluate the integrand over the range, and end up with a single value.

Why? Because I will never, in my life, need to do any of this work by hand. God forbid the company I work for needs the hazard rate of an alternating loaded truss at time (t), I can solve for it using computer algebra packages. Also, I WON'T HAVE ONE HOUR TO DO THREE OF THEM LIKE I DO ON EXAMS. That's what bothers me more than anything else.



Story Time...

I go to the career fair, and while having a great first impression with Chrysler, the hiring project manager asks me my GPA. I am then told they require a 3.00, and was basically given a big "F U" after that.

That night, I get a message from a friend who was having problems with a roots supercharger he had installed on his car himself a few months ago. The vacuum line that was to be hooked up to the actuator had never been connected since installation. This guy drove around with a supercharger that was boosting at 5% throttle, yet under vacuum at WOT. Meanwhile, this guy has a 3.5 GPA as a senior in Mechanical Engineering (at another school).

Now, explain to me how he's more qualified for a position at Chrysler than I am.

That's why a GPA requirement is the dumbest thing a company can do. Being a good student has little relation to how good of a worker you will be.

Some people would say that this explains a lot.

Actually, on Saturdays when I get to sleep in is when I am most likely able to remember my dream. This morning's 2-3 hours, I never remember a dream from such short exhausted sleep.

The nice thing is I never lie in bed waiting to fall asleep. The bad thing...the headaches. Got a nice one now...but somehow it helps me focus.

I could tell you a few dozen anecdotal stories to back this up. In the companies defense they don't really have a method of picking out the more qualified lower GPA students from the less qualified higher GPA students.

The best defense of the practice was a high brow law firm where one of the partners was defending the firms' hiring practice of only hiring straight A students against your argument. His reply was that he completely agreed law school did not prepare you for the job, but that if you couldn't figure out how to get As in law law school then you won't be able to figure out how to get the job done at his firm.

In other words, the grades were not a measure of intelligence or ability as much as a simple goal to be obtained. Figuring out the puzzle to get the A was akin to figuring out the puzzle to get the firm's complex work done. Kinda makes sense.

There is no perfect correlation and grades are simply an easy don't-have-a-better-method approach to quickly and easily weeding out applicants.

One thing is nice, once you get a job, grades quickly diminish in importance and performance and achievement in the work place take over.

We only know about you what you post here, Alex. I see someone with remarkable eloquence (all the more remarkable being in America, where English expression seems to take a back seat -- present company on this thread excepted of course) and who is able to present arguments in a completely logical and totally convincing manner. What would you say, Don? - from your legal experience, would Alex make a fine barrister?

Your subesequent paragraph reminds me why I never followed engineering as a career path: anything beyond a + b = c leaves me cold. Now, if you'd like a discourse on the Gillepsie-Nyholm charge cloud repulsion hypothesis (VSEPR theory [BTW Sir Ronald Nyholm was an Aussie]), or Hydrophilic-Lipophilic balance and its applications in the printing industry, then I'm your man.

The importance some American employers are placing on GPA is rather a concern. I was in the USA for the first time in two and a half years earlier this month (spent five days in Chicago), and I have to say I noticed many changes, and some not for the better. It is still a magnificent country -- that really is the best adjective to describe the USA in one word -- but there is a sense of malaise creeping in to many aspects of life there. If I didn't give a stuff about the place then I would not be worried, but I have a strong affection for the Yanks (heck, I work for an American company). They used to be fabulous at introspection and self-correction; but now they let Oprah do it for them. Big mistake.

Not meant as a critique of the US -- goodness knows there's enough America-bashing going on at the moment -- just an observation. Aussies are far from perfect and so often we copy the USA a year or two later, so perhaps that's the reason for my concern.

I understand what Don is saying about using GPA or A levels as a means of selection. But as a self-confessed lasy arse myself, I know that's exactly what the employment people are doing, being lazy. It's time Human Resources departments started earning their money and being accountable for the dud selections. Same Downunder. My company hires duds too, and then spends the next 10 years supporting these wastes of space because not to do so would be an admission of the original error in choosing them.

Hmmm... now that was a rant. I better go and do some work.

That's insulting...Alex can do much better than engaging in the Paper Chase.

Absolutely he can. He could be Pacino's character (even the correct ethnicity!) in ..And Justice for All. Or a fine advocate, arguing cases for the poor unwashed.

The point is, regardless of career you can never underestimate the power of above average communication skills. Given two engineers of equal abilities and personalities, the one who is better able to express himself is the one who will get the job done and advance his career in any company that is worth working for. Alex is management material.

Crap crap crap... I'm back to my old ways...

Sooooooo, six months in and I upgraded... eeps! The Treo 600 was having a major gravity problem (aka, it was so big my clumsy self kept dropping it), so in a moment of utter frustration I went down to AT&T... suffice it to say, I have a shiny new Centro now and an unlimitted data plan....

...I think these devices might very well be made out of crack!

My palm owns me...
-Miche