Editorial: New Pocket PC's, Same Old Story...

I am a pilot, and I use my old Palm V with the Streetfinder GPS as a nav aid. The battery life is great, it's so much cheaper than a dedicated GPS unit (a decent Garmin will run $1,000), and it does exactly what I need it to do.

Lots of Palm software for pilots: www.palmflying.com

--d'Armond

Just hope you're not up in the air when the battery runs out... :)

I'm not on one side or the other in this debate, but I think that Palm has got some serious competition with the new Dell PPCs. Price isn't the only concern; features or percieved features are a huge part of the cost/benefit analysis. And when you put a Dell next to a Zire, there's just no comparison. I'm not even talking about RAM and MHz, I'm talking about MP3, JPG, MOV, Bluetooth, expansion and out-of-the box compatibility with all the goodies that Microsoft puts out. Granted, much of that is more hype than reality on the Pocket PC, but the perception is what's important.

Even so, Palm's got a good strategy. Months ago they introduced their M130, and now the price on that is $200 or less. That pits the m130 against the Dells head-to-head. On a straight comparison, the Dell wins. But if Palm can get the Zire customers to look at the m130 instead, they may diffuse the competition. It's going to be rough, and it's going to take a LOT of marketing money to make sure that Palm customers don't go over to the PPC when they see a bright-n-shiny Dell next to a functional but unexciting Zire.

Palm Inc, has a little less than 300M cash and hasn't make any profit this year.

While Dell is one of the most profitable computer OEM in the planet.

You want to have a marketing war against Dell? (Plus Microsoft in co-promotion)

ehhrrr..... ok sure.

DSpeers:

If you really want to see a cool system, check out www.teletype.com

There is a nice (not tried it) Bluetooth GPS solution available for the Palm. Check out http://www.infosync.no/show.php?id=2529

The sofware is probably not much use, but it's the GPS I'm thinking of.

Zuber

To Ska,

Keep your mouth shut if you can't back it up. Palm did make money in the quarter ending March 1, 2002

see the financial for yourself

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X3E553D62

A profit of $0.01 per share

this company has never been as bas as people have made it out to be. Just like apple, people love to see a company as about to die. Aint happening.

The Zire is currently the 11th best selling electronics item at Amazon.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O42625D62

Zire buyers have to be new Palm users, noway would anyone downgrade from any other palm made since the palm professional to a zire.

Palm is expanding its market in a recession. Very impressive.

The Tungsten T is the first palm which will make a lot of users think about upgrading since the Palm Vx. The Palm has the top and the bottom of the market excited. That is impressive.

Hmmm, I still don't see the Zire as any reason to get excited, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Talking to the BBuy salesperson when I got my T|T the other day, not many other people seem to be getting excited over the Zire either. He said they'd sold as many (if not more) T|Ts since its release than Zires. He said that the m130 was actually outselling the Zire--so maybe Palm should hold off on forcing the m1xx series into retirement.

Dell just put a kiosk into my local mall. If people get a chance to play with their PDA line at these stations, then they might start doing some serious business in the PDA market.

Now back to my original point: the Tungsten T, after a period of initial skepticism, has me as excited about the future of the Palm OS than any device since I got my Vx back in spring 2000. It also seems that developers are finally getting stirred into action and adding/improving their VFS support at the same time they release their OS5-compliant product updates. of course, I'm having to say goodbye to a lot of older games that have not seen an update in ages (Tankpilot 3d etc).

I've been very surprised at the reaction people have given my T|T thus far. Everyone, even semi-luddites, seems to love the screen and the sliding mechanism. It's the voice recorder that seems to "surprise" peoplee the most. Most of my coworkers and colleagues think that "nifty" feature alone makes it almost worth the $500 price I disagree, but of course, to each his own.

To summarize everything so far, the Best Buy salesman and I determined that Palm needs to get rid of the frightful looking lady on the Zire's garish packaging and should have had a selection of cases/styli available simultaineously at retail to conicide with the launch of the T|T.

>>Keep your mouth shut if you can't back it up. Palm did make money in the quarter ending March 1, 2002

ehrr, and than what happen on Q3? and what is the income balance for the year? Sorry no dice, 2002 is not a profitable year for Palm.

>>The Zire is currently the 11th best selling electronics item at Amazon.
#14, E740 #20 M515 .... The not yet delivered Viewsonic outsold Tungsten, and ToshibaE310-330 are sold out.

oh well.... let Zire save Palm.

Palm expanding? (yes after an 50% implosion in Q2.) not much to expand from isn't it?

Ska, you do need to keep your mouth shut. PPC's OEM's have lost so much more money than Palm Inc has, and they still aren't profitable and don't look like they're going to be turning it around anytime soon, especially by selling new PPC's at a loss.

It's pathetic you can't just admit to simple facts.

---
This signature is witty. You like it.

It’s not uncommon to find 150K+ apps. on my Clie –

Agendus – 393 K
AvantGo – 318 K
BugMe – 231 K
Fast CPU – 339 K
HanDBase3 – 466 K
HandStory – 203 K
Palm Reader- 266 K
Quicksheet – 253 K
Quickword – 282 K
Yi Show – 245 K

Other apps. that I’ve tried which have large footprints: Zap! 2016, Bonsai, Iambic Mail, Breakout, Deep Reader, Splash Shopper, Mahjongg!, McFile….

Most of these apps. are what I use daily on my NR-70 & Visor Edge.

On my iPAQ:

PTVL – 510 K
Dashboard – 540 K
HanDBase3 – 609 K
EWalllet – 444 K
Pocket Streets – 302 K
Palm Reader – 252 K
NPOP – 219 K
WithMP3 – 275.5 K
CIH – 219 K
Stop Time – 165.5 K
HanstoryPPC – 195 K
WisBar – 48 K
My Shopping List – 57.1 K

Interesting to note that PalmReader and Handstory actually have smaller programs on the PPC than on the Palm (assumed PPC would have the bigger app. !) PPC files are, in general, bigger than on a Palm, but not THAT much bigger (i.e., 150K vs. 4 MB).

Don’t’ mind the fact that Palm apps. are 150K+ even with 16 MB RAM, you’ve got Jack Flash and PiDirect to help out. On the PPC, everything will easily fit in 64 MB RAM. All programs and DBs (AvantGo, PTVL, etc.) still leaves 43.61 MB free.

So I can store 64 MB of programs on the PPC and use it at the same time? I think not.

The 64 MB of RAM is split up for two parts: storage, and for active programs. In fact, most of the time it will automatically do a near 32/32 split with your ram (half for storage, half for running programs). So, in real life, you only get about 30 MB for storage (not sure you can count the 6 MB filestore in the ROM as storage :-\).

Load 64 MB of programs on your iPAQ, then have fun playing with it. :)

------------------------
Mario Masitti
O/T Mod
I Love Tennis :)

You are forgetting the fact the part of that 43.61MB free is typically used as additional system ram and not just for data storage. The argument over size of ram is fairly useless anyways. Palm is getting away with less ram for now, but will bump ram in the future without questions.

The pocket pc is a flawed platform because it is based on a flawed platform.

Nuff Said.

you only need about 500k to 2MB to run most program, unless you are playing things like Quake, or Mame with massive image.

to effectively store same amount of program title, Palm devices need to consistently have 1:4 memory ratio. (14MB:64MB). That might be even crippled further with additions of office apps and essentials utilities/Hacks, which in PPC are stored in ROM.

This might be just dandy with things like tetris, horoscope calculator, or other tiny and inane titles, but once it start hitting anything with database file, pictures, sounds.....

kapooof...... the advantage is gone. Most of the newer Palm game already start hitting .4MB-.9MB. Various office apps already balloning to .4MB- .95MB

Another thing is that you are comparing the best and largest programs on the Palm OS to the smallest programs on the PPC OS, yet they're still larger. That must be the point Ryan was trying to get across.

---
This signature is witty. You like it.

Don't worry, in order for Palm OS tobe able to run the biggest of PPC programs like Pocket CAD, multi language Dictionary, AudioPhrase translator or The whole Quake package. Tungsten still have several years to go...

For now, let's start with basic, how about real web browser and real MP3 player that won't take up 10% of free space?

HA!

First things first: you can't compare palm to pocket pc by comparing applications size!!! one details that one forgets: f**in' DLL's`! have you thought of that?
each pocketPC app comes with one, of course hidden by the system.
I personally first start with a palm pro 5 years ago, as a professional tool. Then I got bored of (And jealous) colour screens so I bought a pocketPC. I played around for about one year before going crazy.
How can a 150mhz processor run an OS this slowly?!?!?
and you gotta have 400mhz to come near to a 33mht palm responsiveness??!!? (Seriously...)
I must admit that reading the posts above, each one is fighting for his camp and that must be respected.
But to me, pocketPCs are just toys, it's nice and sexy, but only lasts 6-8 hours and most of the guys posting comments on forums on the internet mainly use them for multimedia (and you know it well). The bottom line is that a pocketPC or palm is supposed to be a business tool. And pocktPC doesn't close even close to something that ressembles an efficient tool. On the efficiency scale, palm is 8/10 and pocketPCs 4/10 when they don't run out of battery after a day's work and loose all the memory's contents. Well if you're looking for a gadget toy, go for a pocket pc. If you want an efficient business tool, palm is the definitive answer, and that's why they're no.1 on market share. Still palm lacks native windows file support (which we are locked down with since 98% of all use windows everywhere). I hope it never comes otherwise palm will have to compromise in including windows functionalities which will criple for good the palm os. Let palm be a cross-platform independent OS, we definitely all need that. I also hope old Bill will optimize pocketPC's OS, otherwise we will be forced to have 2ghz pocketPCs to open a word or powerpoint file. crazy.

Palm outruns windows in efficiency, and that's the MAIN point.

superstel: let me guess, you don't own Tungsten right?

ska: let me guess, you're not really here for the conversations right?

Most of your posts are aimed only at stirring up yet another controversy and frankly you're becoming a big pain in the behind with that.

If you have constructive criticism, I'm sure that most people on this board will be more than happy to lend you an ear. But the way you give a negative twist to just about anything you post is annoying the heck out of an ever increasing number of contributors.

If you're so convinced that Palm can't keep up with PPC, then do us all a favor and find yourself a nice PPC board to post your rants. Your current behavior here only serves the purpose of collecting points for being eventually banned. Or so I hope.

You know, you stated that you were thinking about moving to a PPC because of a couple of neat GPS apps. Have you considered the EMTAC bluetooth GPS unit and a TT. I am looking into this heavily. Combined with some of the great Palm GPS apps out there (IE Mapopolis) I think it would be a cool device.

PS...I started with a Palm, moved to the darkside, and now back to Palm as of 2/2000. *grin*

Long Live Visor Prism

SKA don't Know Rithmatic...

2nd QTR implosion? Your uninformed babble betrays your IQ...there are much larger companies on this planet that would love to be in Palms financial position right now. No, they're not Microsoft but they continue playing hardball with Billyboy and his cash war chest... I suggest you hit the math books this weekend son.

Ska: >> Don't worry, in order for Palm OS tobe able to run the biggest of PPC programs like Pocket CAD, multi language Dictionary, AudioPhrase translator or The whole Quake package. Tungsten still have several years to go... <<

CAD and the entire Quake package. Yes, that's *exactly* why 99.9% of people buy PDAs. I complain enough about running AutoCAD on a 21" monitor. Exactly what do you do with CAD on a tiny PPC Clone screen. Are you perfecting the designs for your mechanical girlfriend or something?

I find it pathetic that you evidently don't have anything better to do than sit in your darkened bedroom hurling ill-informed comments about and disrupting the harmony of PIC message boards. We are here because we are interested in the Palm platform. Why are you here? This site is not a surrogate for your non existent life.

FBN
FBN

I use PocketCAD on my Pocket PC, why??? do you ask,
because I cannot carry a full blown pc with 21" screen or a laptop around on site to survey buildings. PocketCAD is used primarily for that reason. You can amend drawings on site and use it for drawing up surveys in 'real time'.

regards,

Kerwin Robertson.
CAD Manager


Kerwin Robertson + Tungsten T

Hello to part of the 0.1% of PDA users out there....

I would just like to point out a few things...
ska: sure, pocket pc is great, i would love to own one.... but.... too expensive for a start (i am a student) and there is no need for a 400mhz XScale processor that can run as fast as 33mhz Dragonball VZ processor.

If you want to carry a full blown computer OS in your pocket, sure go ahead, buy a PPC, but if you want something small, elegant, and plain easy to use, buy a Palm.

Katunka----also known as slim devil

Sure if you want something under $199 for this christmas there is no other choice beside Palm OS, but some other time, and some other price range, your statement is debatable.

I have jumped back and forth between Pocket PC's and Palms a few times now. I originally had a NEC Windows CE handheld... then bought a Palm III (which I loved) and now am back to owning a Pocket PC (a T-Mobile Pocket PC Phone edition, which I adore). Buuut, when my girlfriend wanted a PDA, I bought her a Palm Vx...

Here's my take on things: I am a IT professional, so the power of the Pocket PC appeals to me. Palm users can argue till they are out of breath, the Pocket PC is simply a much more powerful device. I can get on 100baseT networks, or 802.11b. I can VPN into my office and connect to a termserv session and reboot servers remotely. I can play Realvideo files, Mpeg movies... I can listen to an mp3's *while* working on an excel document. The Pocket PC truly does have PC-like capabilities, and in my line of work I used them all fairly regularly.

But that doesn't mean that I would recommend the Pocket PC for everyone. My girlfriend couln't care less about watching videos or playing mp3's or connecting to the internet. She wants a convenient way to check her schedule, get phone numbers and occasionaly play a game of Alchemy. And this is where Palm excels... they create small beautiful devices that are reliable and do a few things very well.

It would be like trying to force Windows 2000 Advanced Server on my grandmother, when all she really needs is Windows 98. Not everyone needs the power (and inherently added complication) of the Pocket PC; and nonetheless, not everyone wants the simplicity of Palm.

I think both Palm and Microsoft will continue to share marketspace for a long time, neither managing to get too much of an edge over the other. I do think Microsoft will increase it's marketshare some, especially now that it's prices are coming down though.

I'd rather be rich than stupid.

I agree with you 100%.

The choice of PDA is too personal for me to make judgements for my users. That is why I support all PDA's regardless of flavor. EXCEPT THE ZIRE.

PDA's Owned: Palm III --> Aero 1550 --> em500 --> T415 --> IPAQ & Palm IIIc

I agree with you, Zero101. The PocketPC is a very nice toy, but 8 hours of battery life? I think it's laughable. Palm battery life, in my opinoin, is deteriorating. I read on C|net that the m130 will go for 12 hours between charges. That compares to almost double that of a PPC. Also, someone said that Windows for Pocket PC is "a flawed platform" which I agree with. Pocket PC's are more expensive and their battery life worse because the OS needs beefier hardware to run. I mean, a 400mHz processor? Jeez, that's faster than my 3 year old computer. Palm OS, however, is optimized for the Dragonball/ARM processor it runs on, so it needs less power to do the same things. Palm apps are also optimized. Less RAM+Slower CPU=Better Battery Life. Those who argue that Windows for PPC is more powerful might be right now, but with OS 5 coming now and OS 6 on the horizon, they will soon be proved wrong.

As my final comment, I will say this. When fuel cells are finally viable for use on PDAs and cellphones, PPC's should be the first to have them. Then, maybe they will gain some more market share.

________________________________________
I've been working with computers for 1/4 of my life. Beat that.

> Who knows how long Microsoft will continue the different lines of Pocket PC
> Editions and Smartphone-OSes until it merges them all under the Tablett PC-OS

About as long as it takes for many gigabytes of flash RAM for Windows XP to be cost effective, and power requirements for 2 gigahertz processors to become reasonable. It'll at least be a few years. Don't forget that tablet PCs are more expensive than desktops or laptops, and will probably stay that way for some time.

The tablet will fail. How many consumers will successfully write on it without touching the base of their hand to the rest of the screen?

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.

Just to clarify: The Tablett PC is not a touch-sensitive interface. Rather, the stylus employs a magnetic field that is detected by the screen. Resting your wrist on the screen does not do anything.

Magnetic field? Don't these things have a hard drive in them? Doesn't sound right to me.

I assume it's a very small 'electrostatic' magnetic field, similar to the one used on my graphics tablet. This shouldn't interfere with hard drives, airport metal detectors, teeth fillings etc. Still, means you can't prod at icons on the screen with your finger or biro though.

FBN

I agree that there are strengths and weaknesses to each platform. This is an EDITORIAL and I have labeled it clearly as such. It expresses an opinion and you're welcome to make your own judgments from it, but I base my opinions on accurate facts and analysis.

Someday soon I may write an article about what I like about Pocket PC's and what I dislike about the Palm OS. But please don't accuse me of "Palm-boosterism", I am NOT trying to give a
detailed analysis of each platform in this article, nor am I trying to fan a flame war.

ps- If you miss Ed, you can still read his work at Brighthand.

-Ryan
webmaster@palminfocenter.com

IMO, it would be best if Ryan didn't discuss Pocket PC at all and stick purely to PalmOS coverage. This is after all a PalmOS site.

He comes off sounding a bit nervous. And frankly, I wouldn't turn to a single platform centric PDA enthusiast web site for insightful, unbiased views of the mobile market.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs

"PowerPC PDAs"? Is the Apple OS X PDA really being released this time? ;)

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown