Comments on: Editorial: Is Graffiti Dying?
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RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2944
there were about 2 people on this site out of 40 that liked a keyboard better than graffiti. i guess we are not average users, but still...
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
Of course, the PPK is a full sized keyboard, and a good typist can hammer along at a good pace. A thumb board is a different story, and if that was my only option as opposed to the PPK, I would use graffiti 97% of the time.
I thought that my wife would be a good canidate for the thumb board type keyboard, but she gave it back so I could get my money refunded. To her, even though she is not proficient at graffiti, did not like the complications. A capital "N" required alt-shift for upper case, then type "N" then another alt-shift on the thumb board to go back to lower case. She knows that all she needs in graffiti is an upstroke, then write the letter. Anything more complicated for the same results is just a waste of time.
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
I just saw a poll number that say
about 10% of US has a PDA.
Many Palm owners are also waiting to upgrade
when there is one that is worth it.
I recently just upgraded from Vx to M515.
It is hard for me to pick up the Vx now.
As Graffiti, it is true that it can turn some people
away. But as more and more people have Palm, people
are less inclined to do so, as they think if you
can do it, I should not have problem.
Many years ago, I owned a Newton and looked at Graffiti. I thought how could I serve a software instead of the other way around. I never picked up
Graffiti, though it was free to me.
I am still not very good with Graffiti. But I never
feel it is a problem.
ted
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
Graffiti took 2 days to learn and for me made the palm a useful tool. I dislike small keyboards and would not want a tiny keyboard on any handheld.
Hopefully I am not in the minority on this.
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
Remember that average non power users (i.e. people that don't visit this site) don't buy accessories for their handhelds, so grafitty is their only option for text entry.
Also when these people are going to buy newer palms they will already know the grafitty alphabet.
Last, most of the people that use handhelds (like executives) value a lot the form factor (that's why the V, 5xx, and T615 where huge success) these people will preffer a small device to enter addresses and small notes, not a device with a built in keyboard.
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
Although this is true the Sony Clie Peg-N760 wrecked their graffiti writing area by trying to increase its sensitivity - thinking they would improve it. The other Sony Clie versions are 10x better.
GO GRAFFITI.
- JCrusader Jesus reigns
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
I think graffiti is very convinient. I thought of buying a keyboard for my M505 or my T615 (sony, not out yet the keyboard) But just to think of the extra bulk and need a flat surface!!! plus extra carrying thing. I really don't need it.
Graffiti is jus fine!!
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
I just saw a poll number that say
about 10% of US has a PDA."
I think Ed meant that the early adopter market is saturated. 90% of the average Joe/Janes out there still don't know what a PDA is. Most likely, if you're reading this site and posting to it, you're part of the 10%, and therefore already see the benefits of graffiti.
"As Graffiti, it is true that it can turn some people
away. But as more and more people have Palm, people
are less inclined to do so, as they think if you
can do it, I should not have problem."
Just because a select few (10%) have PDAs, it doesn't mean that others (90%) will go out and buy one. Ed's point of the article is that graffiti is the main hurdle that most average users are not willing to overcome.
"I am still not very good with Graffiti. But I never
feel it is a problem."
Being good (or bad) with graffiti has nothing to do with the average user. He/she sees graffiti as an alternative input method--one that requires time (which we know as not alot) to learn.
Keyboards are a good idea for manufacturers because it takes Joe's/Jane's initial trepidations out of the purchase decision. Think of graffiti/keyboard feature as door. Some (readers/posters to PIC) view it as a benign gateway to digital nirvana. Others see it as Dante's entrance into Inferno with the warning enscribed above: "Abandon hope all ye who enter."
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
Yes indeed, this is a proven feature on the Handera. It uses a virtual graffiti area, and you can add a program that places the keyboard IN the graffiti area. Not only that, but you can still write w/graffiti while the keyboard is visible! It's really a well thought and well executed concept.
Sean
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
Sean
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
RE: Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
RE: Graffiti Sucks
Who uses Graffiti anymore?
A virtual grafitti area is something that I've always wanted. Unfortunately, I want color as well, so didn't go with a Handera. The closest I've come is to use an overlay keyboard that sticks overtop of the graffiti area... Quicktype is a freeware app that does this, which is what I use. Others that come to mind are Silkyboard and Fitaly, though I'm not too familiar with them.
I'm surprised that you haven't discussed on-screen keyboards in your article. I'm sure alot of people would want use some variation of an on-screen keyboard (QWERTY, FITALY, Etc) instead of a thumb-board.
---
What's Wrong With This Picture?
http://raj.phangureh.com/picture.html
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
-------
James Sorenson
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
C_Blue
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
use my Stowaway. I got a Newton 2100 and installed
Graffiti on it. With my sloppy handwriting, the Newton
had an easier time recognizing letter then words :)
Also I kept finding myself wnating to make punctuation
strokes in the HWR.
On my Visor, I added ScreenWrite Hack and that has
greatly increased recognition.
I hope if Xerox *does* win that they make Unistrokes or
Graffiti available. I don't think thumb typing is for me.
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
Not only is it a proven fact that it's faster....WAY faster than Qwerty.....it's also more user friendly than QWERTY, although few people realize this.
The ability to slide to insert capitals, numbers, parentheses, etc., just saves SO much time.
It took me about 10 minutes to get up to 20 WPM with Fitaly. I was at 35 about an hour later. I'm at 50+ now, although I quit using the practice app. after about 2 weeks.
I'm not naive enough to recommend to someone that they use FITALY to type a term paper, but I wouldn't recommend Graffiti either.
I'm in an office environment, so I use a lot of "irritating" characters like parenthesis, dashes, and hyphens when taking notes, addresses, etc.
NOTHING does it better than FITALY.
Trust me, I have every reason to be biased towards QWERTY....I type 73 WPM on it.
FITALY is the best....I wish it were on everthing.
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
Since the point is that the most intuitive entry method is the one that will sell, I don't think Fitaly is the solution.
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
Hawkins and the Holy Graffiti will endure forever!!!
Fitaly
-Dagger
----
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -- Mark Twain
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
In reference to the comment that Fitaly has as sharp of a learning curve as Graffiti: Not so! You can still "hunt and peck" the Fitaly Pad, but graffiti requires you to search the reference. I learned Fitaly a lot faster than I learned Graffiti (which I still stink at).
However, despite my long-winded defense to the Fitaly layout, I must admit that choice is good. If we EVER get a full-length soft-graffiti screen as standard, then Fitaly could provide the option for Fitaly, Qwerty, or Custom layout. Also, Fitaly allows you to drop to Graffiti mode with one click. Talk about the best of all worlds!
-------
James Sorenson
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
-------
James Sorenson
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
To make things worse, these overlays are built onto the 'invisible' part of the screen. Unlike the virtual Graffiti keyboard, you can't use them in a dark room (e.g. in a cinema should your work require you to do reviews or such like), or simply at night, in a car etc. The same goes for any thumbsize keyboard, which to me disqualifies them.
Handwriting recognition is nice (as with Windows CE) but I guess it takes substantial resources, but screen feedback would already be an improvement. In any event, for really quick notes I use Notepad or Diddlebug - sure, I have to manually translate off-line but that's the only way not to miss anything
Last point, why not extend the screen down to the graffiti area and make it all virtual, offering more screen real-estate?
To overcome the size problem, I came up with an idea that some will undoubtedly find incredibly stupid : have a virtual keyboard with only half the keys, but twice as big. You need all keys though, so I propose alternating halfs, left 500 milliseconds, right 500 milliseconds (or faster, with some heuristic adaptation). I'm serious, should I know how to I would give it a programming try. Grab-a-key(TM)
yves dot goulnik at roche dot com
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
-Bosco
RE: Who uses Graffiti anymore?
Fitaly
acquired skills
RE: acquired skills
The difficulty of changing such a standard is
PDAs are different. I can't remember the last time that I let someone else use my Vx. Therefore there is plenty of room for all sorts of standards and styles of input on PDAs. Less recognized or adopted standards will have less support from vendors, but anything can be built if you are willing to pay for it. It doesn't make any sense to tell someone that your input style is better then what they use if they don't want to change, and you don't have to use their PDA.
Our problem is that industry would like to have as few different versions as possible. And would like to minimize any licensing required to manufacture someone else's design. From a manufacturing and marketing view, this makes lots of sense, because it keeps prices down.
One option might be to actually split the PDA into two destinct systems.
The screen/cpu/ram section, and an input section. By creating a standard for each, you might be able to choose the screen and power you want, and then connect it to the input style that you want.
If done right (which hasn't happened yet in the Palm world), different companies would pick up different styles of input. I might love a Palm graffiti area, but want the power and screen of a Sony, or Handera.
The obvious problem is then every PDA looks like a Frankenstien beast. Function over form?
Mike
miknny@yahoo.com
RE: acquired skills
For more information, check out this URL:
http://web.mit.edu/jcb/www/Dvorak/
RE: acquired skills
Then, they also built in a little "marketing trick" in that you could very quickly type out "type writer" on the top line without the bars gettin stuck.
RE: acquired skills
Graffiti is for me!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
* Commit random acts of coolness. *
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
RE: Graffiti is for me!
RE: Graffiti is for me!
Is typing with your thumbs really easier?
RE: Is typing with your thumbs really easier?
These days with the Clies and other PDAs as cool as they are I can be playing around with it, and have completely non-techie people be completely blown away. They're amazed by what I can do. It's a photo album. It's a multilingual dictionary. It's a newpaper. It's a graphing calculator. It's an organizer. I can tell they're starting to get interested, maybe even considering getting one for themself. They ask to try it out. While they're trying it out and attempt to write something, I explain that it doesn't actually take written English, but instead uses a bunch of symbols that are very similar to English characters. And instantly all interest disappears. It goes from amazing/useful new addition to life to stupid nerd gadget in the space of time that it takes me to explain Graffiti.
Just as the article stated, most people simply are NOT willing to learn a new system of writing, no matter how simple it may be, to use a PDA. This is simply a case of the manufacturer dicatating to people what they want, and not the reverse. Sure, Graffiti might be faster than true English writing - but there are also a million apps better than the ones that come with Palms. The simple fact of the matter is, people don't need all the bells and whistles, for 90% of the population simple is good enough. Leave the Graffiti for hardcore techies who just need to have the extra 5 WPM to download as a 3rd party optimization.....I'm curious what the rationale is for breaking the Zen of Palm on this one.
RE: Is typing with your thumbs really easier?
Do not trust your intuition on this. Palm and Handspring have run focus groups and found out that around half of the populace were willing and had no problems learning Graffiti. About half the people do not like tiny keyboards. About half do. The market is plenty big enough for both.
RE: Is typing with your thumbs really easier?
Treo 180 changed my way of using the Palm. I have to admit I use the address book as phone book most out of the Palm. Right now I use the keyboard whenever I can to jog down my daily journal, idea log, and project controls... with my two thumbs (I am a fast typer with the regular keyboard).
RE: Is typing with your thumbs really easier?
I'm sure the focus groups were run on people who were actually interested in using Palm devices. I'm speaking of the large majority of the population that doesn't have a Palm, and until they're wowed by something, have no intention of getting a Palm. And not from my intuition, but from my experience the moment they learn about Graffiti, that's it, they're no longer interested. I really do think that the willingness to learn a new language just for your little computer is a geek thing.
RE: Is typing with your thumbs really easier?
In fact, everyday average people (as opposed to the theoretical uber-geek described in above posts) do learn a new skill "just for their little computers": typing.
The preponderance of keyboards proves that learning a new skill does not necessarily become a barrier to the average consumer buying into a product. The idea that typing is a learned skill, believe it or not, actually was a primary kernel at the core of Graffiti's invention.
When conceiving the idea of Graffiti, Jeff Hawkins' concluded that handwriting recognition software, such as that available on the Apple Newton at the time, was a failure because it is more difficult to teach a computer to learn to write than it was to teach a person how to write.
So Graffiti was designed to allow the following:
(1) text entry that was more accurate and thus faster and more efficient than any handwriting recognition software, and
(2) the capability to enter text into an attractively small device that could easily fit into a pocket.
This clearly fits into the Zen of Palm (a.k.a. simplicity and immediacy).
For more information on the conception of Graffiti and the other aspects of the history of Palm, I highly recommend Andrea Butter's book Piloting Palm. You can find out more about it at http://www.pilotingpalm.com.
Switching back and forth
I agree that thumboards are better for writing intermediate length e-mails. That's why I look double solutions that give you a grafitti option or a thumboard option, like the Sony NR, the new Zaurus, and even the snap-on thumboars for the Palms. Although it would be better if they were smaller and didn't cover the graffitti area.
Even if Xerox wins the patent suit out and out, that doesn't spell the end of a grafitti-like system. Palm could license Jot, or they could license the Xerox patent. Or come up with something new, like something that lets you program whatever strokes you want to program for characters (which would let me re-create Grafitti, if I want).
Ed makes a good point about user resistance to Grafitti. But eveyone I know who then actually tried it was very happy with Grafitti. It's just getting over the initial hurdle. That, to me, is another argument for a dual solution device that has both Grafitti and a thumboard. Thumboard to bring in the newbies, Grafitti to keep them.
RE: Switching back and forth
The original concept was a small, portable "pen computer." It seems ridiculous to abandon this in favor of devices that appear less intimidating to the average Joe.
What will happen after 5-8 years of thumbboard prevalence? Manufacturers will decide that what people really want is handwriting input and thumbboard will start disappearing. So it seems to me that this thumbboard trend is really shortsighted. It's geared toward selling, not satisfying.
It seems to me that the simplest solution isn't thumbboards, but some sort of standard handwriting input method. When I used a PPC, I found their Letter Recognizer to be as quick as Graffiti yet it had virtually no learning curve and no intimdation factor. Besides, this method won't infringe on Xerox's bloody patent.
RE: Switching back and forth
Well said. A pda without Graffiti (or something similar) is of no use to me. And as for a learming curve, well, someone who can't be fairly proficient after a day's use is probably someone who also has a problem applying a pencil to paper as well (or, more likely, someone who is not all that interested in using a pda in the first place).
RE: Switching back and forth
-Dagger
----
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -- Mark Twain
RE: Switching back and forth
Both ways are annoying.
RE: Both ways are annoying.
Each generation of Newtons had better and better handwriting recognition. The final ones (the 2000 & 2100) were very, very good and it's sad that there's nothing even close for the Palm OS even though 5 more years have passed.
* Write anywhere on the screen.
* Word-level or letter-level recognition.
* Cursive, printer, or mixed.
* If it guessed the wrong word, double-tap the word to pop up a list of alternate possibilities, sorted by likelihood.
* The handheld learned YOUR writing style over time and thus automatically improved you did not have to learn special ways of writing.
* And more.
I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
The Xerox issue
Incidentally, I use both Graffiti and the Palm Keyboard. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I can't imagine a system in which there is not handwriting recognition at all. I think Sharp is attempting to go that route with the Zaurus. We'll have to wait and see if they are successful.
My favorite solutions so far are those developed by Handera and Sony, although I don't own either the HE330 or the Sony NR-70. I hope this type of system is perfected in the future and widely adopted. I tried thumb boards. Doesn't work for me. I'm too "fat fingered." I played with a thumb board Treo the other day. Absolutely not, no way. Nice idea, just not for me.
JBH
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
Even though that might be enough for the courts, in reality I do not see what the difference would be. Some graffiti characters are not unistroke (though most are, but the characters still mostly aren't the same anyhow), and lots of character sets have unistroke characters.
Looking at this from another perspective, if we all started writing in graffiti on paper could Xerox sue the paper companies? or the pen/pencil companies? Obviously no (unless they had patents on pens/paper/paper technologies). To me, clearly the patent needs to be in the technology of how you actually recognize the characters, not what the characters themselves are. I do not get the impression that is what Xerox's patent is, and that is why I think it will fail. Now if they had this great, special method of recognizing unistroke characters and Palm was using it, they might have something.
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
But I think that is exactly what the Xerox patent covers. I'm sure the claims they made in the patent application cover the gamut from very broad to very specific. I haven't read the entire patent application myself to see the claims and the subsequent patent award. However, the one claim that is talked about he most is the claim that Xerox was the first in invent a system of software interpretation of unistroke characters.
I think Xerox went with the "unistroke" concept to get around prior software applications, such as the software used on the Newton. The law is (in very general terms) that if something was already being sold on the market long before you try to patent the same thing, the subsequent patent for this thing is easily subject to challenge. The Newton allowed you to pick what types of strokes you wanted to use to represent different letters, whereas the Xerox patent and Graffiti use standard unistroke character sets, although as you mention some characters are completed with more than one stroke. That doesn't really matter if the majority of the characters violate the patent.
So, back to my original thought. I wonder if using a trainable system of handwriting recognition would get around the problem. For instance, you can purchase blank/recordable cassette tapes anywhere today. This is true even though you are capable of using the blank tape to commit copyright violations. The music industry challenged such sales in the past, and the courts ruled that it is permissible to sell such a device that could potentially be used to commit copyright infringement as long as you don't actively participate in wrongful conduct. Note that this is where Napster went wrong. There was a recent challege to the KaZaa music trading system in I think a Dutch court recently. That court held the KaZaa system was not a violation of copyright because the company only distributed software that was capable of being used to commit copyright violations. However, the company did not do anything to actively participate in that process -- the music exchange was P2P, and the data was not stored on the KaZaa server.
So, same concept. Maybe Palm converts to a trainable system of Graffiti to avoid the Xerox issue altogether???
Any thoughts from other lawyers out there?
JBH
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
1) use an alternate "free" entry method, or
2) if the really like grafitti, pay Xerox the $5 (or whatever) for a license to use the feature, enter their registration code, and off they go.
The most important thing is that the end user have the power of choice.
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
> device that could potentially be used to commit
> copyright infringement as long as you don't actively
> participate in wrongful conduct
Absolutely, otherwise Xerox wouldn't be selling copiers. :)
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
Sorry, following up on my less serious comment, you are talking about copyright, not patents, very different. Even if there was a trainable system, there would still have to be some recogntion method. If Xerox's patent is actually on a/the recognition method (which I really do not think is true) then you are right back to square one. Plus others might have patents on the training methods and it would just get more ugly. If Xerox really had this novel method of recognizing unistroke characters, I think they would be suing a lot more companies than just Palm. Instead their claim seems to be mostly based on the similarity (or lack of in my opinion) of their unistroke characters to graffiti.
Ugh, enough on this from me anyhow. Software patents should be should not be valid anyhow (at least not for more than a very limited time), but that is a whole other story.
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
If tomorrow I filed a patent that singing @ 60 mHz, any singer who tried to sing @ 60 mHz should pay me a loyalty fee because simply I filed the patent.
Any patent case, especially technology, cannot be cased just based on simple concepts. If I filed a patent for a specific programming algorithum, anyone who uses a similar algorithum should give me the royalty fee, even though the source code are entirely different. If this is the case, I will be a millionaire.
The same applied for the Unistroke. The concept/alogorithum may be similar, but the symbols (source code) are entirely different. Therefore, the court is trying to prevent people from thinking, instead of stealing. It is because the simplest alogrithum for one guy to input a letter is a simple stroke. Anyways, this is more complicate than it sounds.
RE: I still don't see Xerox winning their case.
Why Choose?
Get the real device, why stuck with one system? Technology has progressed since the day of 16mHz. Now we live in an era of 206Mhz or more.
Calligrapher!
The Treo's keyboard is not ideal. Have you tried it, Ed?
ARMed chips will bring *real* HWR -- Calligrapher. Or so I hope.
The last thing I'd want to see is the current Graffiti area replaced by an alleged "keyboard."
RE: Calligrapher!
RE: Calligrapher!
RE: Calligrapher!
If there is HWR on the new Palms, it won't be Calligrapher, I asked Phatware the same thing and got the very direct response that unless Microsoft buys out the PalmOS, there will NEVER be a PalmOS version of Calligrapher (and they DID use the word NEVER)
RE: Calligrapher!
Instead of Palm Inc drooling over their new -- now, phantom -- office building, they should have been planning for their future and *purchasing* Calligrapher.
Jot stinks. I don't like ART's HWR, either.
To that other poster, re: Newton. The last version of Newton's HWR was based on *Calligrapher's* core, which is why it was so damned good.
RE: Calligrapher!
graffiti is great, but there is better
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
It's just one of those things where if you use it consistently enough, your eyes can "search" for hard to find letters while you're in the process of typing the previous letter.
Fitaly is superior to anything out there in terms of speed. What most people don't understand is that it is also VASTLY more user-friendly than QWERTY keyboard alternatives.
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
K. Tran
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
They should last quite a while.
You must be trying to use the demo. I would just print it on paper and tape it on, unless that's too "ghetto" for ya.
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
you can see here how my Vx looks with a yellow fitaly-post-it
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/cberganza
c_Blue
IBM has a free version
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V27512DA
I apologize for the long link - I know we're supposed to use a shortcut site but I didn't know how.
They will send you the sticker and were supposed to put the PDF on the web site too...
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
I was tapping at 35 wpm within an hour on Fitaly.
I'm at about 53 now. That's nearly as fast as I type on a QWERTY keyboard, which is about 62 WPM no mistakes.
RE: graffiti is great, but there is better
I've used Fitaly (onscreen, no stamp) and Quicktype (I currently use this), and I love the fact that both were more or less transparent, and you could use graffitti at the same time. You have to be more careful, but it's quite doable. Atomik does not allow for the use of graffitti at all.
rgds,
K. Tran
the ideal
RE: the ideal
m705?
There is room - and need - for both
Cost is also a factor - electromechanical (i.e., buttons) is always going to be considerably more expensive to manufacture and support than a simple stroke-catcher. You will pay extra for a keyboard, whether it's an add-on or included, and failure rates will be higher.
Size is a big issue, too. Your choices are: 1) truly pocketable 2) keyboard input 3) large(r) display... pick any two, but all three are impossible. For instance, my primary gripe about the Blackberry is the small screen.
Can't We Have Both?
First, that's not actually true, all Palm's have the on screen keyboard.
Second, Palm rolled-out a thumbtype keyboard with the units for anyone that wants one. It's an add-on rather than an in-the-box accessory, but, it is clearly available.
I like having options. In the field, I tend to use graffiti more than anything. I have a Mini Keyboard with me usually, but, since it doesn't fit on the unit in my belt clip case, it's a little bit of a pain to implement on the fly.
When I'm palnning ahead with respect to note taking or answering emails, I clip my Mini Keyboard on and use it.
Finally, when I'm stationary and know I'll be taking notes or typing quite a bit, AND I have a solid surface, I whip out my Stowaway and mount my i705 on it.
Bottom line, if graffiti were to be phased out of Palm units -- for whatever reason -- I would try to make do with the last possible unit that had graffiti rather than go without. Graffiti has become a major part of my life and I'm not inclined to want to do with out it.
Mike Lohsl
Palm & ACT! Advisor
RE: Can't We Have Both?
RE: There is room - and need - for both
Why not have both?
RE: There is room - and need - for both
Graffiti vs. keyboards
And Graffiti isn't strictly unistroke's the X character require duostrokes according to the built-in help.
RE: Graffiti vs. keyboards
RE: Graffiti vs. keyboards
Graffiti was my attraction to the Palm
are you kidding?
Keyboards not successful before Graffiti
RE: Keyboards not successful before Graffiti
as people do more and more with their handheld, Graffiti's usefulness becomes an issue. Heck, if Graffiti was better then a keyboard wouldn't we be seeing it on desktop machines?
Graffiti is wonderful for entering a bit of information, it has very high speed-usability. From the time I take the palm out of my pocket, turn it on, open a contact and jot a name, i would still be setting up the keyboard on the desk or clipping it to the bottom of the palm. But, if i have to write a proposal on a time delay system for a dilution drain on acid tanks. Setting up the keyboard will pay off.
Keyboards are useful if the user is going to be "doing more" on the palm, with tasks that have heavy text entry. But a keyboard does not add ANYTHING to checking an appointment or setting an alarm (unless you are writing a long note to go with that alarm)
Personally, I would choose a palm with Graffiti over a keyboard built in.
nategall says "blah!"
The new keyboards are different
RIM keyboards, needless to say, were designed for thumbs rather than fingers. Unlike the older keyboards, the keys are non-contiguous, which prevents the accidentally hitting adjacent keys.
The more the handheld is designed for stylus-free operation, the more fluid the input. The Treo and especially the Blackberry minimize or even eliminate the need to pull out a stylus by navigating via keys and a jog wheel.
I do prefer the handwriting agnostic character recognition of Graffiti to the allegedly "more natural" HRW schemes of Transcriber and the like. And Graffiti was clearly superior to the keyboards released a decade ago. But the state of the art has shifted.
Curious:
I also tried out a friend's Handera 330 and fell in love with virtual graffiti, but am holding off for color, BUT "normal" graffiti would not be so bad if the surface is that good.
Has anyone else gotten frustrated with graffiti because the dedicated surface on your device is inadequate?
RE: Curious:
RE: Curious:
The Danger of SMS
If smartphones are the future is there a danger that these smartphones will use the same input technique and the future is not the Qwerty keyboard but a 0-9 number pad. The phone companies already have a legion of teenagers who understand how to fast input by this keypad method and yesterday's tenagers are tomorrows PDA buyers.
If the recognition software could be improved to write according to a person's personal vocabulary the future will be numberpad.
Nic
Nic Hughes
RE: The Danger of SMS
Graffiti is a must!
want this. Of course I can understand people getting there add ons for long data entry. I too if
is some long journal article or the like will type it on the computer and then sync. But I love palms
and one of the things I love about them is there bringing graffiti to the world.
F.Gordon
RE: Graffiti is a must!
"I absolutely would never want a key board only device. In fact I am amazed some people might
want this."
I have to agree to an extent. But remember that's there choice, they know what is best for them. I think it's great to have a keyboard if you are not always on the go. As for me, I don't have time to sit down and lay the keyboard to type information, but why not? It will save me lots of time if I wrote an article or something. BUT, I myself, personally think graffiti is the way to go. And the onscreen keyboard is not too bad its self (get keyboard hack). Graffiti is here to stay.
And the survey says....
- full size keyboard,
- thumb keyboard,
- virtual keyboard,
- fitality, et al,
- grafitti
- natural handwriting (other letters)
- grafitti II (e.g. something like grafitti but not Xerox owned if that's possible).
Would be interesting to see primary method preference and also second alternate choice (i.e. different that which primary choice receives the second most votes)
Personally, I can't see how the appeal won't be successful (can one patent a language?) but it is a very good question anyway, regardless of the lawsuit.
Graffiti Rules
My 2 cents
OB
Any device can have one more useful feature added.
www.PalmVenue.com
Graffiti is not Handwriting Recognition
The distinction is important when one looks at why Graffiti was developed: Because the early versions of the NewtonOS HWR didn't work very well.
Graffiti is built for lightweight and simple PDA's without the horsepower to handle true HWR, like most PalmOS machines. Now that PalmOS machines are beginning to compete with, and become full-featured, high-horsepower PDAs, the time for Graffiti is over.
RE: Graffiti is not Handwriting Recognition
RE: Graffiti is not Handwriting Recognition
No graffiti, no palm for me.
I'd end up getting a Pocket PC.
The ability to quickly enter data while standing up in a store and without taking my eyes off the screen is very important. Graffiti was the sole reason I bought the original Palm Pilot to begin with.
Palm survives only because it's most basic function, data entry, is the most efficient out there. Without that, Pocket PC kicks Palm's ass all over the floor.
Palm is waaaaay behind on graphics, sound, and desktop application integration.
Death of Graffiti would be death of Palm. Without it, Palm will simply be playing catch up to Microsoft.
I have a Clie T615, and I love it. I like the NR series, but would rather omit the keyboard for a smaller and thinner form factor.
-Edwood
What a load of horse ****.
Give me a ****ing break.
There is absolutely *no* evidence that this is happening. The Xerox lawsuit? It's groundless, and will never impact on Palm's business. It will most likely be thrown out of court.
Keyboards have *always* been around. No news there.
There are *many* Graffiti replacements, yet none have taken off and overtaken Graffiti as the input method of choice. Why? Because Graffiti works best for the majority of users.
Even the Newton was only usable with Graffiti installed (again, IMHO...the Newton's built-in HWR sucked, even on the MP2100).
I looks to me like somebody's just trying to increase their web site hit count.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
I'm inclined to agree. Looks like it's working, though.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
> It will most likely be thrown out of court.
Hate to break it to you but it has *already* affected Palm's business. Palm already lost the first case and it is in appeal. The day they lost the court case, their stock price took a hit it hasn't recovered from yet. I agree that Xerox's case is bogus but since when has that had any affect on the court systyem? Turns out your ignorant opinions don't mean squat.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
Oh my god! Your right. How dare they expess their opinions? Especially ones you don't agree with becusae anyone who holds any opinioon different from yours is clearly a crazy moron out to destroy all we hold dear. They should be torn into little bitty pieces and buried alive!! Down with the free expession of ideas!!
RE: What a load of horse ****.
Get a life dude. Ed is entitled to state his opinion on his website. And brush up on IP law you f***ing moron. However doubtful it may be in your case, you just might learn something about how business is done in this country and stop spouting your puerile, ignorant BS.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
All of you.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
Looks to me like someone who runs a rival handheld website (PDABuzz maybe?) pissed off at how successful PIC is.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
RE: What a load of horse ****.
> support Ed's right to say whatever he wants.
That's not what the orignial poster did at all. Much of his post, especially the last line, was a clear attack on Ed's right to give his opinion.
tealscript???
I installed it like 2 weeks after I had my first palm..
(A palm III) and have had it ever since on all my palms. Actually, I'm still using the same profile on my 760 as I originally trained on the palm III. I could not stand graffiti because I would learn it and then forget how to write for real!! well.. not really - but it was strange to me. However, I love tealscript, and I couldn't stand using one of those tiny keyboards. I have a stowaway for when I really need to type someting, but for jotting a note handwriting recognition can't be beat in my opinion. Palm should include something like tealscript - with a graffiti profile for those of us that like graffiti - and a couple of generic handwriting profiles that people could modify to their specific style.
keyboards are Ok but not THE answer
Graffiti
RE: Graffiti
The next closest Graffiti showing was 37wpm.
You can never do a stroke as fast as a key tap. Virtual keyboards will always be faster than any character recognition, no matter how "efficient" it is.
RE: Graffiti
RE: Graffiti
If you allow for error rates like that, I can easily do 100wpm with FITALY.
RE: Graffiti
RE: Graffiti
From dictionary.com:
Bar.
...
3. To except to exclude by exception.
Nay, but I bar to-night: you shall not gauge me By what we do to-night. --Shak.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
...
Either grow up and quit trolling, or at least get your **** straight.
I /am/ the eggman.
Grafitti is needs to be re-worked
They found out the hard way that one has to teach a machine to do exactly that . Since we are in America, where it is totally cool to complain if your custom-made burger is not ready in 30 seconds. the teaching bit obviously didn't fly. Handwriting can be quite distinct.
Grafitti is the Palm group's answer. Being a Geek I excell at Grafitti, but I still have to slow down people on the phone when they give me their number. Typically one in ten entered is wrong.
I am very proficient in Grafitti and that makes me wonder. Wonder why the entire Grafitti mechanism hasn't been worked on since the inception of the Palm. There are several crucial items that are available to educated users that should be part of the standard.
I have my m505 loaded up w/ WordSmith and QED and MagicText. I am also an advanced user.
In the long run I believe that Palm performed a service and has established a standard. That is Grafitti. Millions of people have learned Graffiti like Millions have learned the Mouse. Grafitti needs to be much better and offer most options carried now by Hacks. Since the current solution of Grafitti hasn't been worked on in 5 years, there is a lot of stuff to do before we aboandon it.
Thx
RE: Grafitti is needs to be re-worked
John
RE: Grafitti is needs to be re-worked
hey while we are at it, why don't we just grunt and club each other instead of using PDA in modern language.
...Hey, while we're at it...
I /am/ the eggman.
RE: Grafitti is needs to be re-worked
Yes, because they provide a sick kind of humor in an otherwise way too serious discussion by a group of technology geeks. So there. Naaaaaaaaaa! :b
Apple didn't invent any of this
Is Graffiti Dying
I have used Graffiti since it's inception, starting with the Pilot 5000 and found it to be very intuitive and easy to learn, albeit something that requires effort... Just how much "effort" is involved and whether that effort is objectionable is debateable.
I am able to use Graffiti to keep on the fly tour notes while walking and talking. Sometimes I will go back and edit these notes using Graffiti, Less often I will edit them using Palm Desktop. In either case, the initial method of capturing my thoughts is with Graffiti and I can't imagine using a tinie weenie keyboard whilst walking and talking and trying to take notes.
For me, the Palm device allows me to spontaneously capture my thoughts while on the go. Something I think this particular Mobile device excels at.
Unfortunately, I believe if Graffiti were to die it would be a death knell to the Palm OS until some other kind of text recognition software were licensed to take its place.
RE: Is Graffiti Dying
I am sure whatever new Palm model it would be able to include grafitti simulator, just like Pocket PC.
graffiti
RE: graffiti
Graffiti, the past, present & future
Think about this a minute. Xerox wins the case, Graffiti as we know it ceases to exit, or does it. A few minor changes to the text and you have another type of character recognition. Hawkins was no idiot when he spent countless hours doodling on paper to create Graffiti. Perhaps, stuck in the wings of the design group at Palm is an alternative that they have been holding in case of an emergency. Who knows?
As for the keyboard/thumb board arena, I have a folding Palm keyboard and use it for extensive note taking, but my preference is Graffiti. I find that my clients are intrigues by the simplicity of it and actually catch on quickly when they try it. Graffiti is a wonderful recognition method. Granted there are a few others that do well, but Graffiti seems to be very efficient. Besides, if I wanted to always use a thumb board or on screen keyboard, hmmm, I might just pull out my old Radio Shack databank and put a battery in it.
Anyway, I agree with the others that Xerox will not likely win this case and Palm will continue to move forward.
Addicted to Palm
If Palm stops using graffity they lose ...
1) Size: most people (specially non-power users) choose Palm OS instead of PPC for their size. With a tumb keyboard size will be increased, specially if they use a large screen like the NR.
2) Quick data entry: Most people (unlike us) just use their palm OS handheld as a glorified agenda. They just want the convinience of taking their palm out of their pocket and quickly enter a phone number. With a keyboard you would have to be switching between styluas and keyboard.
Finally the average sized fingers are two big for the tiny keys of a tumb keyboard.
''It's not only the technology, s*****.''
I hate the idea of using a thumbboard and would probably switch from a Palm to a super tiny laptop if grafitti and folding keyboards start to disappear.
Thanks, Robrecht
grafftti dying?
A Graffiti Fan
My first PDA was a Palm Pilot 500, I have upgraded 5 times, and plan to purchase a new device when Palm OS 5.0 is available, but I really don't think I would buy a PDA without graffiti (or at least some type of stylus-entry function). My guess is that many others feel the same, hopefully our business is worth keeping.
Sorry, Ed, I think you're all wet...:-)
Obviously not, but the comments on this board make it equally obvious that Graffiti is an indispensable part of many Palm users experience.
>Though Handspring put out two versions of the Treo, >one with Graffiti and one without, I've heard from >several company executives who say they expect the >non-Graffiti version to sell better.
It's a telephone, Ed (albeit a fancy one). I wouldn't base an opinion on the demise of Graffiti on telephone sales.
>One of the big selling points RIM is using for the >Blackberry is that you can just type your emails, you >don't have to learn some arcane writing system.
Good point, if email was all Palms were used for. I seldom do.
>Also, Sony's new NR series has a built-in keyboard >and Palm offers a clip-on keyboard for the i705.
Exactly. Choice. Keyboard AND Graffiti.
>Finally, one of the best-selling categories of >peripherals is keyboards of one kind or another.
Sure, but isn't the reason obvious? Graffiti, for a touch-typist writing anything of any length, has got to suck. Does that mean they have quit using Graffiti all together? No.
>Taken together, these seem like fairly compelling >evidence to me that there is a lot of support for >Palm handhelds without Graffiti.
'Compelling'? I'm not swayed so easily. I think your opinion is on shaky ground. You offer no pertinent statistics or studies to support your argument. Seems to be more a "gut" feeling brought on by your own experience with PDAs one that is heavy on typing and light on activities that are stylus/Graffiti oriented, like maintaining an inventory database.
Having said that, you might be proven correct down the road. All I know for certain is that when PDAs are no longer a pen-based device, I'll no longer own a PDA.
RE: Sorry, Ed, I think you're all wet...:-)
Yes, I found this line quite interesting as well:
>Though Handspring put out two versions of the Treo, >one with Graffiti and one without, I've heard from >several company executives who say they expect the >non-Graffiti version to sell better.
"Several" executives from a company that has an investment in the sales of a particular product "expect" the non-Graffiti version to sell better. The Treo may be a wonderful little hybrid unit, but using it as an example of the direction the entire Palm OS market will take with regards to Graffiti use at this point is at best very premature.
>Finally, one of the best-selling categories of >peripherals is keyboards of one kind or another.
I am one of those numerous keyboard purchasers. But if I were to calculate the number of letters I have typed on the keyboard, it would fall very short of the overall text entry I have done on my PDA. I know I have the option of the on-screen keyboard as well. I still prefer Graffiti (and that is even with having a HandEra that has the keyboard in the Gaffiti area). If I had to give up either Graffiti or my keyboard, guess which one it would be?
>Taken together, these seem like fairly compelling >evidence to me that there is a lot of support for >Palm handhelds without Graffiti.
I have to agree with the previous post there is nothing compelling about this "evidence".
"Is Graffiti dying?" Doubt it.
RE: Sorry, Ed, I think you're all wet...:-)
Remember that the Treo's main competitor is the Rim Blackberry. The blackberry is a pager not a handheld computer.
When it comes to handheld computers people definitely prefeer graffity or other handwriting method. Handhelds are about quick and convinient data entry as well as small size.
Here is a fact: why did Micro $oft started making its handhelds with a graffity like input method and eliminated the keyboard(ie. palm clones)?
The first Win CE devices did had a keyboard but they floped.
RE: Sorry, Ed, I think you're all wet...:-)
> particular product "expect" the non-Graffiti version to sell better. The Treo may
> be a wonderful little hybrid unit, but using it as an example of the direction the
> entire Palm OS market will take with regards to Graffiti use at this point is at
> best very premature.
Handspring sells BOTH keyboard and non-keyboard versions of the Treo. They don't really care which is more popular. All they have done is say they expect the one with the keyboard to do better.
The Treo is the only PDA with both a keyboard and non-keyboard version. Sales of it are the BEST indication of which way people would rather enter text.
RE: Sorry, Ed, I think you're all wet...:-)
It's a phone.
Microsoft's Graffiti
RE: Microsoft's Graffiti
Palm lawyers == 98 lb. weaking
Microsoft lawyers == Godzilla/King King/Mothra all rolled up into one
Seriously though, I'm not positive but I actually remember seeing somewhere that Microsoft actually paid a licensing fee to use this technology. Not positive on that however.
Besides, think about it:
1. Block Recognizer only appears on Pocket PC 2002 units only.
2. All Pocket PC 2002 units have mandatory Flash ROM.
3. Flash ROM can be updated and the Block Recognizer removed.
Unfortunately for Palm, Graffiti is an intregal part of the OS and is silkscreened on 99% of PalmOS units
Palm. Microsoft definitely went the right route with the soft input panel. Hardwired Graffiti was fine 4 years ago but is really ridiculous now. HandERA and Sony both know it, but Palm Inc. is in denial....
3
Jot, handwriting recognition
Other programs (e.g. Calligrapher) are available that recognize handwriting.
With the increased processor speed and memory of Palm OS 5 handhelds to come, a more robust and flexible recognition package might just work.
Otherwise, we could see a whole new type of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.
EBL
RE: Jot, handwriting recognition
RE: Jot, handwriting recognition
With Jot, all you have to do is write like you would on a piece of paper and there is no restrictions on how to write each letter. It recognizes different ways of writing each letter by itself.
If keyboards are the future, why M$ stopped using them?
Now newer generation Wince and acutal PPC use a similar form factor to the Palm OS handhelds and no keyboard (like Cassiopia, IPAQ, Maestro...). And these newer deviced without keyboards have been selling better than the older onew with keyboards. (acutally there are some PPC devices with keyboards, but they are touch type not thumb keyboards which defeats their portability.
The future os handhelds is definitely small devides with some form of handwritting recognition 9graffity or els) and M$ definitely knows it.
RE: If keyboards are the future, why M$ stopped using them?
MS lawyers leave Xerox lawyers crying like little babies.
Xerox shoud pay for their offense to Palm OS users.
Handera330 useful: Virtual Keyboard in Soft Graffiti
I use this for to-do's and short memos. It's slow, but
I didn't like graffiti since I've "unlearned" a clear
handwriting. It works alright, but it is not fast.
for a while I used it in combination with text-plus, which is a relief, but it has display-problems with the Handera.
For longer texts, I use the PPK -since I learned typewriting, its the fastest solution and I'm very
happy with it (PPK for Palm III is 50 EUR in German Online-Shops).
I also tried Handwriting-Recognition for Palm (e.g. JOT), but it was slower than virtual keyboard.
My conclusion is: a combination of soft-graffiti area and virtual keyboard seems to be smallest, most universal and cheapest.
RE: Handera330 useful: Virtual Keyboard in Soft Graffiti
If I want to use Grafitti (which is most of the time) I can. If I want to type, I can do that without using up
any more screen real estate than the Graffiti area uses. If I want to use the entire screen, I can get rid
of the Grafitti area completely. And with the "standard" serial port, I can use my GoType keyboard when
I need to take really fast notes in a meeting and need to look at what the presenter is doing while typing
(I can't even do that by writing on a pad of paper).
Note that I *DO* use all forms of data entry available to me and I have become used to having the
flexibility to switch back and forth as the situation suggests. And since the Grafitti area is virtual, I can
even overlay multiple keyboard layouts If I want to. Well, only if some kind soul writes an overlay for it.
I know many people who have a Palm, Sony or Handspring, and when I give them my address (and
they don't have it beamed to them), I see them tapping away at their pop-up keyboard. I ask why they
don't use Grafitti, and they say it's too much to learn, and not as accurate as tap-typing. Of course,
I also know just as many people who use Grafitti.
-- Paul
So when does Palm start paying Xerox or stop using Graffiti?
RE: So when does Palm start paying Xerox or stop using Graff
Getting Rid of Graffiti?!?!
Graffiti is a must (or something like it)
BTW to improve and speed up graffiti entry do the following things.
1. Buy a plastic screen protector and at least cover the graffiti area - improved tactile feed back.
2. Buy Tealecho that "paints" your keystrokes - visual feedback.
3. Buy word completion software, such as quick write - it will double your speed at graffiti entry.
Michael
how bizarre
Graffiti
Bluetooth Impact on Graffii
P. Brown
lacks numbers and statistics...
Is graffiti dying?
Most of us can't touch type either !
Despite spending every day on a keyboard, I've never managed to touch type, but being able to quickly jot down a note without looking has proved invaluable.
P.S Has anyone else noticed 'Graffiti-isms' in their normal handwriting yet ?
Alastair
Re: Is Graffiti Dying?
A lot of information comes from the desktop by synching and most of entering on the road are corrections and small add-ons (or creating a new contact once a while).
If Graffiti get's replaced, I hope by some kind of speach recognition (even silent speach recognition as under development for mobile phones).
Rolf Gloor
Switzerland
Palm Pilot, Palm III and presently Palm m105
Graffiti was a fluke
graffiti is cool
I love graffity
As to built-ins...Palm is SMALL and fits to handy places. I will NOT upgrade if it means bigger size. I'd bought laptop, if I'd wanted that.
With graffity I can write wherever an idea hits me - even jogging, and on bumpy busrides,and in the dark.Though I'm not very fluent, it still beats the virtual keyboard (impossible to hit, when on the vehicle). I use that when I want speed or for longer entries.
RE: I love graffity
Off Base
To Graffiti or To Type Portability and User Interface
And, I like Palm handheld because it is the thin and one of the most portable handheld implementation.
But, I also do prefer using keyboard when I have to enter anything more than couple of sentences. I prefer using something like Q-Pad from tDevice, not just because I work for them, but it is really portable. It is a keyboard built into the leather case - slim leather case, about as big as any other leather case for Palm. see more at http://www.tdevice.com
If I have to type 10 page report, then I would use folding keyboard or laptop.
For PDA data entry, PORTABILITY is very important. For any data entry USER INTERFACE is most important. Due to these needs by general public, some type of keyboard is inevitable for sometime. Maybe until voice data entry is reality.
Very good article!
is Graffiti Dying?
Using a keyboard in the field while standing on top of a stucture just isn't an option. I either use the on screen keypad or Graffiti, whichever is quicker for the entry in process.
If I want to use a keyboard later, for editing my notes when I get to a more suitable location with any sort of table, I use a folding keyboard.
The reason I bought a Palm in the first place was to record notes in the field and was small, and easily carried, with download facility to a PC once I got back to our office, where the field notes could be transferred directly to reports where required.
OK so the Palm was never intended as field equipment, but after two years of using it in windy, rainy, hot and cold conditions, I have no complaints. There are some limitations of course, but these can be worked round easily.
External keypads have a limited use. The screen keypad is useful, so is Graffiti.
The thumboard design revolution
The Blackberry, the Treo, the Zarus, and the proliferation of thumboard attachments to Palm and PPC devices should not be confused with the inferior mini-keyboards that made space saving input strategies like Graffiti so popular.
1. The keys are non-contiguous, so your fingers don't accidentally hit the nearby keys.
2. By spacing the keys in a more-or-less square rather than rectangular format, and reducing the size of the keys, handhelds can still retain the more popular Palm-sized form factor -- avoiding the checkbook width of clamshell Psion and early WinCE handhelds.
3. Like Graffiti, there is a learning curve, but most thumboard converts find themselves matching or exceeding their hard-won Graffiti speeds in less than a week. For those who've never tried both, try this thought experiment: would you dial faster on a cell phone with Graffiti instead of a T9 keypad?
4. The thumboard requires virtually no instruction. Pressing marked keys will always be easier for the newbie than learning a glyph set, the same way the GUI will always be easier for the newbie than the CLI.
MyScript, Handwriting Recognition Software
Best Regards
Christophe NARPINIAN
Sales and Marketing Manager
VISION OBJECTS - MyScript
e-mail: christophe.narpinian@visionobjects.com
Graffiti and new form of writing
Cheers
Instead of graffiti - Has anyone tried the Silkyboard?
Brazilian says : Graffiti for ever !
I have many friends that have Palms with keyboard.
None of them use theirs keyboards. It is often unpractical.
Large data entry must be done by the PC keyboard. Then you just sync it. Little strings are very ease to perform with graffiti.
As you American says : piece of cake grafitti is.
Keyboards are expensives and annoying to carry.
I have three legs !
And now, with my Palm , three hands!
Well, I don't like it.
JDL
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Will keyboards alienate those who solely use graffiti?
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