Comments on: Palm Confirms m130 Does Not Have 16-Bit Screen (Updated)

Boy, I hope whomever your employer is don't really know who you are. If I were the employer I will sack you and let's see how you get over it.

In the design, they may have specified 16 bit, and would not know differently unless notified by the vendor or engineering. It may be the same scenario as the IIIc, which could use any colors from the 16bit color table, but could only display a 12 bit selection on the screen at the same time. Still, if it were my company, I'd have at least a couple people to verify that it is exactly what was specified before the ads went out.

So far I have not seen anything other then the 'lump it and leave it' option from Palm.

Palm got backed into a corner, they could deny it and get there reputation further trashed, or claim ignorance and buy some time...

If what they say is true and no one caught this with a proof of concept model, then went straight ahead ordered inventory parts and assembled them, then shipped them and no one checked? SOMEBODY is asleep at the wheel.

Back to the point here, sure a reasonable amount of time should be granted for them to check what it takes to repair, study what can be fixed, etc... however what I disagree on is that they have no real comments at all during this time.

In this instance no response, in my opinion, is the same as admitting the likely action to take place, nothing. I think consumers who have bought this model are owed even a simple statment such as 'we will find a fair and equiatble solution to this issue'. No promises, just communication.

Palm screwed up and should do as HP did -- offer a FULL REFUND to any customer who was under the FALSE impression that the unit is 16 bit and is dissatisfied. HP handled their fiasco well. Let's see how Palm will handle this -- I think the FTC would like to know as well.

I'm calling him and I advise you all to do the same. If we can get enough pissed off people together, maybe Palm will listen.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-241337.html?legacy=cnet

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

If you don't know what to do with it, sent it to me. I could use it for some hardware testing. I went through a few 505's myself before upgrading.

PS: hold the vaseline!

Did I say that I had an N710C??????

You were making the point that Palm has some problems and so you got a Sony. He was making that point that Sony has its own share of problems.

As to Palm's "explanation," I don't get what they mean by "it actually supports 58,621 'color combinations'" - and don't care to spend the time figuring it out.

Wow. Again, total apologies.

I am disappointed. I may buy a Sony in the next generation of handhelds (if they ever make it here!)

_____
Fammy

There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and every specification matters. Maybe 16 bit meant nothing to many buyers of the m130, but here's hoping Palm swallows its pride and does right by those who do care about the issue.

Could be their manufacturer put in a single wrong component and Palm will do a recall where they fix all the m130s out there. Or they might offer refunds to anyone who wants to return their m130. Or possibly even mail a check for $50 (or some other fair amount) to all m130 owners.

Point is, it's too early to get a heated up when you don't have all the answers yet.

The POINT is the notion that you SHOULD get what you pay for from a trusted company. Palm should back what they advertised.

Now that it's out that the screen is actually 12-bit instead of 16-bit, and give me a break!! Palm had to know the error. It's just unclearly when they knew it, and how long they decided to ignore it.

The point is: Palm has breech the trust of their loyal customers.

I said this before but it apparently needs to be said agin.

HP released the Jornada 420 in March in 1999 and no one figured out its 16-bit screen was really 12-bit until June 2000. That's 15 months!! HP even released two more models, the 430 and 540 with the exact same flaw and no one figured it out.

This isn't a glaring error. You can't pick up a handheld and say, "That's 12-bit but that one over there is 16-bit."

It was kind of sloppy but not a sign of criminal malfeasance. There were no lawsuits against HP.

Mazda carefully notified everyone who bought the cars, published it widely, offered full, no-question refunds, and for those who didn't take the refund, they received a large gift certificate for Mazda parts & accessories. It was a generous offer, and immediately satisfied 99% of the Miata-buying public (which, like the Palm public, is loyal and loud).

It DOES pay to own up fast, and make some sort of gesture. Would it kill them to offer a memory card or some little dongle to make nicey-nice? Although, considering their financial standing, maybe it would.

It is sad...

As for you not returning your m130, well that's your choice. One question...why did you get a color handheld in the first place? Surely the monochrome ones can perform all the functions that you said you needed and they are cheaper.

The outrage is complaining about this now. Anyone that bought a m130 thinking it was a 16 bit machine was either blind or stupid. Ultimatley, however, does the fact that the m130 does not have a 16 bit screen really alter the functionality of the product? NO!

In actual fact your comment is an outrage! Why would somebody have to be stupid or blind to think it was 16-bit? Anybody that purchased the m130 did so in good faith. How many people are going to do in-depth bitrate tests on a product as cheap as the m130? Nobody would be my guess! You obviously do not understand that the question here is not "does it alter the functionality?" but rather "did Palm promote something as 16-bit that was actually 12-bit?". The answer is YES they did and they should come up with a satisfactory response by allowing peple to return their units if they require or perhaps giving them a software bonus or a free case or something. I imaging very few people would return their unit.

Is this so hard to grasp?

You will defend Palm saying just give it time to react...news flash...they already knew about this!!! Palm's management did not just wake up this morning, looked at their m130 and say "You know...it is 12-bit!!!"

You pro-palm people is just like a loyal dog, no matter how many times your master(Palm) kicks you, you always come crawling back.

It's call a spine, grow one.

Cnet compares the M130 and the Treo 90, and one difference is that the M130 is listed as displaying 65k+ colours. Many consumers, even those who see the screens before purchasing, accepted the information that the M130 was something we find today it was not.
That is the issue.
That is the outrage.
Thanks to An0nym0vs for the effort to tell the truth.

I don't understand you. First off, what does it matter how a store displays an item? That's NOT the issue at all here. The issue is that a company mislead (on purposes or not, it's not truly known yet) their customer base.

A customer should not HAVE to verify that a product offers what it says it offers, especially if it's a product from a relatively trusted company like Palm. It's called false advertising.

>>"I also don't remember any stores where they even had the color depth listed on the description tags next to the devices. Your store doesn't fit the model of dozens of stores selling PDAs I've been to. I certainly wouldn't shop there if you couldn't see the device first."<<

Second off, where in the heck do you shop?

I used to work at an Electronics Boutique, we kept all our Palm device boxes (empty, of course) out on display for the customer to pick up and look at.

I now visit Best Buy and CompUSA all the time, and at these stores here they DO list out the features of the product INCLUDING color depth. And you know what, the local Circuit City does as well!

>>"Internet customers on the other hand have a lot more to complain about. Still, if you didn't like the screen, return it."<<

No, Internet customers have AS MUCH to complain about.

And people who didn't like the screen probably ALREADY DID return it. Again, that's not the issue. The issue is the deception, here, intended or unintended.

I don't even OWN a Palm m130. I've NEVER owned a Palm branded device. I was a Handspring loyalist who then migrated to Sony. However, this situation irks me, because it either smells of purposeful deception, or gross incompetence. You want neither in a company like this.

The fact is Palm posted and advertised false information. Either they had no idea what the screen color depth was, or they knew and lied about it. Neither possibility is very reassuring, and in either case the consumers who relied on this information to their own detriment should be made whole, if they wish.

Grow up! Don't you know you have to carry a lot of gadgets and spend lots of money to buy a Gameboy, an iPOD and a photo album while you can get all three in one package! How come your head is still in the stage that a PDA must be a PDA and could not be something else? Grow up! Without that kind of innovation why people would buy new gadgets? Without the stimulation of a purchase how could a company survive?

"well your honda accord is overpriced, and ugly"
"well its not ugly or overpriced compared to a lexus, cadilliac, mercedes benz or bently!"

i mean come on, get some commen sense about the handhelds you are comparing, before you try and compare them as in the same category.

____________________
Ever notice how fast Windows runs?

Neither did I.

The original Sony CLIE N710 had a 65K color screen but only displayed 12-bit. The N760 had the same screen but had updated OS to display 16 bit color.

Jeebers man you know your handhelds!

"Vulcans do not touch food with their hands"
"I'm gona love to see ya tackle the spare ribs"

Hmmm...you from Palm trying to blame it on Sony?

Giving m130 owners refunds/credit would be the best solution. However, I think the Palm will have problems. The HP refund/recall was sucessful because of the volumn that they sold and they sold mostly to indivuals.

What Palm face is the sheer volumn handheld that they sold (quite more than HP) and that some of their units were brought in bulk to cooperations.

My comments come from the fact that I compared an m130 screen to a clie n760 screen, and thought that the m130 screen was horrible.

Sure, they're both labelled as 16 bit screens, but I was still aware enough to form my own opinion of the screen without looking at specifications.

I think it's incredibly stupid when the qualitative value of an aspect of a product (ie: the screen) is judged by the "quantitative" properties (ie: resolution, color depth).

Besides, the m130 DID take alot of flak for the screen when I saw reviews of it. Those reviewers were also obviously able to form their own opinions as well, instead of relying on the specs on the box.

> To further improve margins, they could buy rejected
> Dragonball processors that only run at 25 mhz, but
> of course keep 33 mhz on the package. If anyone
> benchmarks it, they could say "our buyers didn't
> tell us!" or "you shouldn't be able to tell the
> difference. Besides, doesn't your calendar still
> work?"

That argument doesn't relate, because the only comparison between a 25mhz cpu and a 33mhz cpu is the speed. When comparing screens, it's a matter of opinion of screen quality, not a benchmark.

> Wow... those comments are really sad. Do you
> honestly believe that consumers that are lied to
> don't deserve to be reinbursed for flat out lies
> perpetrated by Palm? Maybe I just don't prescribe to
> your theory of having the consumer "take the shaft
> one more time"...

Who lied? Think about. Who lied? Did Palm sell the m130's with magic glasses that made the screen look like it was 16-bit, and then took all those magic glasses away today, revealing their true colors? (pun intended)

---
Wooo!

Well, phrases like "12 bit color", "16 bit color", etc are the only way that we can quickly understand what the screen would look like if we were to see it. Can you imagine a box that said "Displays up to 4096 colors at a time from a selection of a 50,000+ color palette"? I know I'd probably laugh my head off. It would probably also just confuse people as well.

I think that a specification like that really shouldn't be taken as the word of God. I know that the Clie T615 is supposed to be 64k 16-bit color, but it's so washed out that the average person with good eyesight would only be able to distinguish about 5000-10000 of those colors. Should Sony be held financially responsible because their backlight washes out the colors so much, that the full spectrum cannot be clearly seen?

For the screen, it really IS the customer's responsibility to decide whether or not it's good enough for them.

Now that I think of it though, the only way I'd actually hold Palm responsible is if they advertised "16-bit", and a Palm program that required 16-bit color failed to run on the m130. Other than that, it really is the owner's own responsibility to decide on the screen.

---
Wooo!

The argument does relate. The objective "speed" of a CPU (all other details equal) is its clock rate (25 mHz versus 33mHz). The subjective question for you to answer is "Is this CPU fast enough for my applications?" The clock rate should provide information to help you make that decision.

For the LCD screens the objective criteria is how many different colors it can display (2^12 versus 2^16 in this case). The subjective question for the consumer is "Is this display good enough for me?" Again the objective criteria should be a guideline for answering the subjective question. However, Palm misrepresented the number of colors that the M130 can display.

How would feel if you paid for a 1.2 GHz Pentium machine and found out the CPU was really 800 Mhz? It would still run MS Word fairly fast but you did not get what you paid for.

You may be right about me letting them off too lightly... My only problem is that it was very easy for me to see that the m130 screen didn't look very good at all when viewing full color screens, so it's hard for me to have sympathy for people that would suddenly "realize" that their m130 screen was sub-par.

Personally, I'd relate it to buying a feather pillow. You take the pillow home, and it doesn't feel very comfortable at all. You use it for awhile, and decide to keep it anyways, since it suits your needs. Months later, you find out that it wasn't really a feather pillow, and now you're angry. You had a chance to try the pillow for months, knew it wasn't very good already, and should have returned it and bought another brand. You shouldn't really have a right to be angry. I wouldn't pity you in that case at all.

---
Wooo!

Ford had to eat the cost of upgrading the Cobras, and on top of that, suspended production of subsequent Cobras for at least a year.

So, your argument doesn't hold water. If a manufacturer mislead consumers, they either fix it or get sued. End of story.

In a realistic sense, a class-action lawsuit would not go far with this. However, Palm should cough up something to prevent their hardware unit from getting coated in a mud layer that they can't wash off, thereby harming future sales of their hardware (and subsequently, their software).

Again, misrepresent your product, you run the risk of making the consumer ultimately choose with their pocketbooks.

is the ghosting worse than a palm 3? (2bit grey: 2^2=4 greys, what it has)

My palm III was 50p from a charity shop, and introduced me to pdas

boris

Good point. Which brings me to my question:

Why would a company in such a situation with a major next-generation release of Palm hardware AND software right around the corner intentionally lie about something like this knowing their reputation would be at stake if they got caught?

That doesn't make any sense. Well, at least not to me. Heh. I'm confused and am trying to make sense of it all, but I guess we really won't know until Palm makes an official announcement some time.

Jim

www.pocketloft.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=60

____________________
Ever notice how fast Windows runs?

Neither did I.

www.tavern.2ya.com
Palm OS apps, news, reviews and such

If I were their PR head, I would be trying to convince them to take their medicine and finish this thing. HP did the right thing and their long-term reputation survived intact after the Jornada incident. Palm, it would seem, has different plans in mind for themselves.

Why is almost everyone on this board such an anti-Palm person? I don't understand what you're doing here... don't you have lives? Nothing better to do than bitch and moan about a company...?

If you don't like Palm then don't come to the *Palm*Infocenter!!

The alternative is 8-bit, 16-bit, 24-bit, which leaves people saying "What's a bit, and how is it relevant to the number of colours?". Or 256 colours, 65536 colours, 16777216 colours, which is probably a bit too much information.

If you don't like that PALM users are talking about PALM devices on a PALM website, go spout your Utopian, save-the-world nonsense on the Yahoo News message boards and save it for someone who cares.

What a load of crap. That doesn't prove that the screen is 12-bit. I never said it was acceptable. The simple fact of the matter is that Palm has not confirmed that the screen is 12-bit in anything I have read. The article title is wrong. If Ed has information stating otherwise, I'd be glad to hear it. If the article title said, "Palm confirms m130 does not have 16-bit screen," there would be no issue. Wired apparently knows better than to make such a claim without facts. In fact, Wired instead chose to quote comments from this article that make the 12-bit claim. Hilarious since this article is apparently based on the Wired articles.

Furthermore, if and I mean IF, the m130 uses 16-bit color data and somehow interprets that to more than 4096 colors, saying that the screen is 12-bit would essentially be a false statement. There would be nothing about the screen that is 12-bit.

My point is they didn't deny it either.

Oh? Your ignorance seems to be on fine display here.

>>>Right, m130 can't display 65536 colors, but it doesn't claim such thing.

Oh? Better check your facts more carefully, because your are wrong.

>>>Go read some threads before posting anonymous comments.

The issue is not what others are saying in the other theads. THE ISSUE is the difference between what Palm ADVERTISED and what they DEVIVERED, and what their REMEDY is going to be.

I am glad however, that unlike so many others on PIC, you take ownership of your comments.

-Brett Blatchley

Note that 'support for' is not the same as 'can display'.

Note that 'support for' is not the same as 'can display' "

Well that's it. Palm has become "Clintonized"

m130 can perfectly run 16-bit (65536 color) apps, then it means it has support for 16-bit color depth.

Yes, Palm has made mistakes. Name me a single large corp that hasn't. They're acknowledging it, and like the problem with the static buildup in the cradles a while back, they'll do right by their M130 customers.

Yes, they're slow to introduce new products. I'd rather wait for a quality product than dump my hard-earned money into a model that's discontinued 6 months after its release. My IIIc is one of the best Palm-based PDAs ever made and is still going strong.

Poor Palm? Maybe. But I'm willing to stick with them for the next generation of OS5 Palm devices.

With hard disks, all the reputable manufactures have text in their specifications that differenciate between formated and unformatted capacities. There is no deception here, what "is" is clearly indicated.

With CRT's, it's been common knowledge for as long as rectangular video displays have have been a commodity that the display size is measured diagonally. But even in this case, the manufacturers are careful to point out the "viewable" area.

In addition, color depth (8/12/16/24-bits) is so fundamental to display technology and *can* have such a large impact on useability that a slip of the pen between 12 and 16 bits is a serious misrepresentation.

It's almost like the camera/scanner makers claiming certain *interpolated* resolutions when the actual sensor resolutions are much lower -- but at least in these cases, the manufacturers advise the consumer in the specifications that this is what's being done.

You "get over it" people really need to get off your high-horses and accept that you are wrong about this issue. It may not mean much to you, but no doubt sometime in your life you will need to deal with an anologous issue which you believe deserves a remedy.

The issue here is clear: The client bears no responsibility to ensure that such a vital specification is correct. The manufacturer is 100% liable for the problem this problem.

Now, Palm might tell their clients to "get over it" too, but that does not erase the issue nor negate their responsibility. It will just drive their clients away to other manufactures.

To the moderator: You might want to close this thread as it seems to have degenerated beyond its usefullness.

-Brett Blatchley

If you debate this, don't argue with me, argue with the international standards committees.

That said, I'm actually beginning to think that the situation here is worse than the HP one in terms of deception. Whether or not HP knew from day one that their PDA was limited to 12-bit, we may never know. But the Palm situation looks much more sneaky. According to someone somewhere (PocketPCThoughts I think), he claims to remember the original marketing material claiming the m515 as 16-bit color and the m130 as offering "more than 65,000 colors." These two devices came out at the same time, so why the different wording? He claims that shortly afterwords, the m515 wording was changed to be consistent as "more than 65,000 colors." That hints at the possibility that they knew right from the start that it wasn't a 16-bit device but worded things "creatively". Of course, this is speculative.

Much worse, however, is their recent "explanation" of the problem in which they claim that the screen offers "58,621 color combinations" where they count dithering as a valid method of creating a color combination. This is extremely deceptive. It allows them to then claim that the difference between the previous claim and the "actual" limitation is merely an 11% difference. I think that Palm has dug themselves into a deeper hole here and this should cause an uproar among the Palm community. They should've been forthright and stated that the device offers 4096 colors and waited to gauge how much discontent there might be before offering any incentive to the customers. But this deceptive wording certainly causes me to question whether or not this was ever an honest mistake to begin with.

Unless you live in the boondocs this is a pretty thin excuse.

Were you really unable to visit Best Buy, Office Depot, CompUSA, or any of the thousands of retailers that carry PalmOS PDAs? Really?

I upgraded my m505 when the m130 and m515 were introduced. Either was an upgrade over the screen of m505 -- but I did a comparison check before buying.

I'm sorry you're unhappy with the m130 and have been since you bought it... but if you didn't even comparison shop then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

-Kevin Crossman