Comments on: Rumor: Sony to Release NX Series with OS 5 (Updated)

320x320 displays are the same size as 160x160 displays.

but the 480x640 doesn´t make sense:
it´s a 3:4 ratio while hires+ (320x480) has a 2:3

. . . .

. . . . A 3x4 screen

. . . .

.......
.......
....... A 5x7 screen
.......
.......

Both the same size, but pixels packed more densely. Result is lines are less jaggy.

No worries, AOL suits some just fine as well ;-)

When it was leaked out that Palm had the new Tungsten to come out, many Sony fans were flaming the item, and one of the greatest flames was about the 16MB memory. At the same time talking about how Sony innovates. There still seems to be this attitude, but the notice on the new Sony OS5 devices are the same as the NR series of today, but with OS5 and ARM. Don't get me wrong, Sony has made many great strides, especially with multimedia over the Palm, but now we can see that they have taken pause.

I guess all you NR70 owners were just lab rats after all.

First CF card Slot
First to support extended memory
First QVGA screen
ONLY dual slot machine

Ahhhh, what a life! Actually, make that "Get a life!!!"

R.I.P. Handera

HANDERA SUCKED, SUCKS AND IS GONE GET OVER IT. TRG may have done ome good things but Handera was/is a joke. And FYI thank SAMSUNG for the 330 not the dip****s in IOWA.

Remember the early days of Palm when things like grayscale, etc. weren't available through the OS? Did that stop game developers? Of course not!

Sure it may be more difficult but I really doubt that it will be all that long before game developers are shipping ARM-centric apps rather than just 68k apps with "armlets" - even though the OS isn't "designed" for it.

MAME is certainly a possibility.

Sony is missing the boat on wireless connectivity and battery life and still doesn't get it on expansion. Even the CF slot will be Sony proprietary crap if this rumor is true. A third slot to power along with a video camera? They better crank the battery rating way up for this one. 400MHz XScale is nice but if it is exactly like the NR series you still would not have a gamepad. TI's processor includes a separate 200MHz DSP chip for video/audio/etc. Given the XScale's less than stellar performance in the PPC world, I'm willing to bet if it outperforms the TI solution, it won't be by much.

I had some of the same thoughts before I got my NR70v... it was the largest handheld id had in a while, and the camera was subpar... but the screen hooked me. In hindsight its the most significant new handheld ive used in 10 years... I use the hell out of the camera for all kinds of things... sure its not stellar quality... but its not supposed to be... its quick and dirty images for situations when you find yourself wanting a pic of something... in future Clie models I could do without the keyboard (havent used it yet as the on screen ones better) and even the swivel/flip design... but they gotta keep that HiRes+ screen and the camera!

In agreement with what you are pointing out. But anyone who has a Clie XXXX / Acer SXX can tell you that playing MP3s in the background does slow the whole thing down even when another DSP is doing the decoding.

Why do I think 16meg is plenty, for *this generation*?

-Applications are small, they go in RAM. Data and media go on the storage card, they are large.

-Power consumption is lower with less RAM.

I haven't ever been presented a case where "You can't do X, Y, or Z because your Palm /only/ has 16 meg of RAM." When that can happen, then it is time to bump up.

In my mind, people would rather have the choice of being able to pay $600 for their high-end PDA without all the extra memory if they're not gonna use it, rather than forcing a $700-$750 price point down everyone's throats that just want to read some eBooks on a nice pretty screen.

Which is why 16MB is useless for databases that I would love to sync but can't keep and modify when I need to because there is no memory for running other apps......"

Learn how to use Powerrun

BTW I was wondering how they'd fit the CF slot into the current case without the expense of redesigning it, anyone think that the battery push-out on the left of the case just below the hold slider is just about the right size?

Did you read my post? MP3s, Audible books and large databases belong on a card not in RAM. I have 250 MB of data that I use constantly. Using your inane logic I need a Palm with at least 300 MB to be happy.

PS The 32 and 64 MB found on PPCs are not for mp3s and audible books. It is hard to use a PPC without filling up 60 MB. PPC users use storage cards for large files.

I would've loved to see the impression on the faces of all the little sony defenders when they read this news. WHAT A JOKE.

A CF card slot that doesn't let you use CF storage, How pathetic is that. Sony should be ashamed of themselves. That's like getting a nice, new four door car but two of the doors are just dummy doors and can't be used. This is how ridiculous it is for Sony to put that kind of restriction on a cf slot.

I can't wait for my Palm Tungsten T.

I miss all the insightfull commentary on how terrible palm is for only including 16 mb of ram. While sony the superior has everything in it. well apparently not.

GO PALM GO!

:)

I personally have an m505, am very happy with it, but I do aspire to have one of the Sony's just for the multi-media capability. Still keep the m505 for the productivity. They both have their pros/cons.

Regards,

Jeff

First CF card Slot
First to support extended memory
First QVGA screen
ONLY dual slot machine

What I mean by "First PalmOS device to support real expansion" is that I can see the expansion area as another drive in Windows, that I can drag and drop files to without jumping through any other hoops.

Maybe a Handera or Handspring did that before, but I didn't think so.

I wouldn't dare claim Sony was the first with any kind of on-device expansion.... :)

I'm sure there's more to that above list, it was just off the top of my head...

As for the NX/R, you wouldn't get a much thinner PDA by putting the same components into a single case, enough to install a metal flip cover, though, and that would be a more robust unit.

Sony will eventually introduce a 320x 480 OS5 T-series so don't fret i'ts only a matter of a month or two!

-----
I'll make you fun size!

Or, how they will put in the ads, "battery lasts for weeks on typical* use"

* "actual battery life may vary depending on your particular usage"

"Battery Life: Approx. 10 days. *6"

Oh joy! Yeah, but let me quote "*6" footnote:

"*6: Based on 30 minutes of use per day with backlights set OFF. Actual battery life varies depending on the temperature
and conditions of use.."

Well, 30 x 10 = 300 minutes, 300 / 60 = 5 hours.

5 hours with backlight OFF? Even PocketPCs can do better... Hope this is wrong, but the rest of the specs in the same file seems to be consistent.

Any comment?

While I'll be surfing the net using Clie anywhere in my home or other places (cafe, school, etc) where they have the access point, the ones with BT would be stuck with nothing.

AGAIN: BLUETOOTH vs. 802.11 = Apples vs Pears.

WiFi is great for Networking, but it's also BATTERY SAPPING.

PDA's with 802.11/WiFi drain a lot of battery and may run less then 2 hours.

Bluetooth=PAN=low power=cable replacement (+ automatic synchronization)=mobile

802.11/wifi=LAN=higher power=networking (no automatic synchronization)=not mobile (enough)

see "802.11 NOT the one-size-fits-all wireless technology"
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=41543

Because you don't need Bluetooth when you have 802.11?

Because they know that Bluetooth and 802.11 are two different technologies for different uses.

Intel for example, said at the IDF that they will introduce Banias in the first half of next year. The chip will include integrated 802.11a, 802.11b and Bluetooth compatibility. With most major PC makers scheduled to offer the chip, wireless connectivity will soon become a standard feature in laptops.

Sony has already Bluetooth integrated in a few products like digital camera's, intertainment robots, home handy viewer, notebooks, memory stick, bluetooth usb dongle, modem adaptor with bluetooth function and has a bluetooth rf module and a new bluetooth radio and baseband module conforming to bluetooth specification v1.1 which has been bluetooth qualified recently (named CXN1000: Power class 2, includes Cambridge Silicon Radio's Bluetooth Stack as component)

....deadline.

You aren't reading the article. It says "They will have a CompactFlash slot, though this won't work with memory cards, only Sony-branded 802.11 cards." It didn't say any wireless networking card, just 802.11. This was confirmed by the source of the rumor on ClieSource. Sorry, the only way to add Bluetooth to this is buy the Sony Bluetooth memory stick.

Personally I need BT. I use my Palm when I’m mobile so I connect via IR to a [Bluetooth enabled Sony Ericsson!] GPRS phone. I’m connected when I’m in between meetings, walking down the street, zooming around in taxis and cruising on the underground. WiFi hot spots are just too restrictive. IR is inconvenient and BT would make internet access so much more practical. I have GPRS roaming in many Asian and European countries, which provides far better coverage than WiFi can hope to achieve. I also planned to make BT part of my office and home wireless network.

Now the dilemma, I like Sony specs, the keyboard would be extremely useful, but the killer is the lack of Bluetooth. Sure I can get the BT memory stick but that just adds to the frustration, and the size of the PDA.

Cheers

Matt

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I mean Bluetooth is great for low speed peripherals such as keyboard, mice, headphones and microphones. I buy one and don't have to upgrade. I don't have to worry about cables, IR line-of-sight, or range.

For use with a wireless phone, the latest w-CDMA broadband wireless will run at 384kbps. This is well below 700Kbps rate of Bluetooth.

As for IP connection, WiFi is 11Mbps but limited to Open Access Points, which are going to become rare as security increases on this free ride, or to Pay-to-Use access points. General coverage is non-existent and roaming is horrible when competing Access points overlap. My keyboard peripheral would need an IP stack, security software and a big rechargeable battery. I don't want to pay for that more expensive hardware.

One interesting thing is they both use the open 2.4Ghz frequency set. Is there any chance of these clashing?

So the argument is still:
low drain vs big drain
good speed vs great speed
not-so secure vs IP security
wireless charges vs access point charges

Maybe they are already working on it Ed? Who knows?

"Sony has already Bluetooth integrated in a few products like digital camera's, intertainment robots, home handy viewer, notebooks, memory stick, bluetooth usb dongle, modem adaptor with bluetooth function and has a bluetooth rf module and a new bluetooth radio and baseband module conforming to bluetooth specification v1.1 which has been bluetooth qualified recently (named CXN1000: Power class 2, includes Cambridge Silicon Radio's Bluetooth Stack as component)"

Doesn't hurt that Microsoft is joining the Bluetooth Party for real know.

Windows XP to get Bluetooth support
http://news.com.com/2117-1040-959832.html?tag=ltnc

I am sure that Palm chose the name to symbolise a machine that can withstand the community and troll flames.
Of course after a year it will fuse and need to be replaced. ;)

-----
Donde esta Harvey? Harvey esta down!

Sony comes through again. And these new OS5 devices might last more than 2 months.......

Hey, Wait!! You forgot that:

It is only **200 MHz**!! That'll SMOKE a 175 Tungsten.

And the MemStick is >Proprietary< TOO!

There's no way you'd be able to record any MPEG video to RAM, even if Sony put in 100 GB. PalmOS requires you to store all non Palm format files on an external memory card. That's what the memorystick slot will be for.

Yeah, just like when IBM used to make laser printers and they decided to artificially segment the market by offering for a lower price the same printer with a hardware hack (they add a chip) to make it slower.

Of course, competitors were able to sell for the same lower price printers as fast as IBM's more expansive models.

Crippling the CF slot to try to sell more Memory Sticks is stupid. May they sould re-brand MS as MemoryMax or BetaMem...

It is realy a shame that the PDA market is going MHz-crazy, just like the desktop market. Soon we will be discussing the results of meaningless benchmarks (hey - Sony new XX models can do a lot more NOPs per second them the new Tungstain Y).

One of the great contributions from Palm was the proof that you can build a better product (Palm III, for example) using less power (compare with the original Palm Sized PC).

By the end of the week, what really matters is how responsive the system is and how many times you had to recharge your battery.

If Palm choose wisely (as in the past) the Tungstein will be fast enough and have a better battery life.

Sony where is YOUR innovation??? 16Mb RAM??? Bollocks for such an expensive device? NR clamshell. After ALL the problems I had with the dreaded NR series I am for one not going to use the NX.

Sony finally let the engineers take the weekend off because they were so far ahead. Wouldn't wanna blow the wad and all...

Zuber

I've not seen the internals of a Clie, are you saying the battery is smaller than the one you get in a 8310. I'd be amazed if it is. I was thinking it would about the size of 2 of those.

Zuber

My advice to Sony, would be to drop the prop. CF slot, stick in Bluetooth and a bigger battery in its place. The 1200mA number from my Nokia 9210 would do the job nicely.

Put the WiFi on a sled with an additional battery.

Zuber

Oh, Yeah!

pffft... really..... I love it when people spout garbage to make themselves try and seem smart....
200mhz it is, 200mhz xscale, 200mhz slower than the 400mhz xscale, that has been popping up in PPC's all over the place... but, because you are a single minded sony freak, because the sony has a 200mhz cpu, it must be the fastest.
(and it still cant do anything that a PPC cant)

heh heh, I'll stick with my m105, oh but I wish it had wifi, and bluetooth, oh and 1024 x 768 xga screen, and dont forget 1gig of internal ram, and it will run for 1 minute, if you use it with the backlight off and dont use the digitizer due to the extra power drain. but hey, if I wrote sony on it with a nikko, then I would be happy with it.

What does "P D A" stand for again :|

Please, before you flame, realize that the confirmation that it was 200mhz was posted in an update, AFTER i posted, so don't blow your head off in a fit of self righteous rage.
As for being a sony freak, i own an m130. I am currently saving up for an OS5 handheld, and have got a holiday job to pay for it.
I am not a sony troll, and i don't see where you get that from, i am a PalmOS troll, true ;), and i was happy to see that a PalmOS handheld was as good if not better hardware wise than any PPC. However, with confirmation that it is 200mhz, i don't think i deserve a flame.

"(and it still cant do anything that a PPC cant)"

Umm, did you read the article? Try inbuilt video camera. Yes, it is not quality, or neccessary, but just a toy, but then again i recall the same being said about GUIs.

I don't plan on buying this handheld, i don't like its format or design, and i would never be able to afford it. Your flame is totally unjustified.

I have no favour for palmOS vendors, all i support is PalmOS. I will take the best deal available and the handheld that suits me best. My current palm is an m130, and my next will probably be an SJ30-esque OS5 sony, if such a device is ever made.
All you achieved in your mindless flame, was to show that you are much more immature than a 13yr old, and suggests that you are a narrow minded troll who cannot handle anyone saying anything remotely encouraging about sony.

Mr I.M Anonymous, if anyone is single-minded it is you. No-one made you buy this handheld, so why complain? It adds to the family of PalmOS devices, and is good for the platform. But i suppose you are an average PIC troll who is religiously loyal to a vendor, and will insult any other vendor with standard insults concerning battery life, or lack of features, depending on which vendor. Please note that competition is good for the consumer, and without PPC or other palm licensees, i doubt that colour would be very prevalent, even today.

As for trying to look smart, maybe you should try it sometime?
Oh well, i'll let you get back to your book burning, and chanting about whatever vendor it is you worship.

=-=-=-=-=-=
PalmOS supporter

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

But I don't think its something that a good 3rd party developer can't fix.

The real problem is not size or weight, it is that the new CF-sized slot is NOT CF, but instead is a new Sony proprietary format. As such, CF cards will not work in the NX70V.

Sony shoots themselves in the foot again.

Overheard at Sony Headquarters:

"I think we need to make a PDA"
"I think we should build a Handycam"
"I think we should build an MP3 player"
"I think we should build an expensive remote control"
"Let's do it like Microsoft, and put it all into one device"
---------
Do you even know what Sony offers? Or is it that you just don't understand market segmentation?
Let's take a look at Sony's current lineup:

SL10
Low cost, BW no frills PDA. Cheaper hardware, disposable batteries, no Mp3, no enhanced IR, no "Handycam", minimal 8meg memory.

SJ20
Lower price range BW, no Mp3, no enhanced IR, no camera, BUT with better hardware and 16 megs memory.

SJ30
Mid range priced color PDA. No Mp3, no enhanced IR, no camera.

T665
Higher price range. Mp3, Enhanced IR, no camera, 16 meg memory.

NR70
Flagship model, high price range. Mp3, Enhanced IR, no camera 16 meg, 320x480 resolution.

NR70V
Flagship mode, high price range. Mp3, Enhanced IR, camera, 320x480 resolution.

Exactly how many other iterations do you need? You want a camera, you get the NR70V. You want Mp3, you have a choice of 3 PDA's. Don't want Mp3, but you want a color PDA? That's covered too.

Where does this come from? The camera won't swivel all the way around, but there's nothing stopping the screen, is there? The picture explicitly says that it swivels.

Can anyone tell which device this is?

NR70V?
NX70V?
NR90V?

Anyway, the video quality is great! 30 fps! :)

http://hem.passagen.se/pmr/teaser/index2.html

Seems PIC aren't the only ones to fold under the pressure of Sony... go Geek.com!

Can you please e-mail to me: deleteme32@hotmail.com

sccl@netvigator.com

Tks a lot

OS: Palm OS® software v. 5.0*1
CPU: 200 MHz

Memory: 16 MB (RAM)*2, 16 MB (ROM)

Display: TFT color display with back lights, 320 x 480 dots, 65,536 colors

Interface*3: USB (cradle), Infrared (IrDA 1.2), Memory Stick slot*4, Remote
Commander LED, Communication Slot (CF Type II) *5

Power Supply: Output DC 5.2V, Input AC100V- 240V

Battery: Lithium-ion polymer rechargeable battery (internal)

Battery Life: Approx. 10 days. *6

Dimensions: Approx. 2 7/8 x 5 1/2 x 15/16 inches (projecting parts not included)

Weight: Approx. 8 oz. (including stylus)

-Biff K

Sony listens. :)

I understand that, but at the same time, the groups that constantly push the envelope (audio/video/game developers) never really let themselves be limited by OS constraints before.

I don't understand people who say "PalmOS 5 only supports ARMlets so no one will ever make games/etc. equivalent to what's on a PPC until PalmOS 6 comes out!"

What's to say you don't just make a small shell with all the real app meat being ARM code? Sure you'd lose compatibility with older devices but in the bleeding edge world, that's the sacrifice you make.

Did PalmOS not supporting greyscale, sound, or video stop the developers of games and media players? No. As long as the hardware is capable of it, developers will push it no matter what "constraints" the OS imposes.

One other thing, these new Sonys don't appeal to me at all because of their size and weight. I have some very strict requirements in this regard and these two exceed those limitations. The Tungsten T, on the other had does not (depending on how much bulk a cover/case adds).

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2DD24DE1

-Record voice memo on internal memory or Memory Stick media.
-Use the recorded voice memo as your alarm sound.
-Beam or attach your voice memo to email using CLIE Mail.
-Recording time: Approx. 535 min on 128MB MS in LP mode. (8 kHz sampling freq.)
---------

Cannot see anything about being able to record video with the MPEG4 video program, but there is a volume setting, so who knows?

Why would you want to buy an 500-600 dollar pda if you don't plan to do anything power or processor intensive?

I can't believe people are complaining about the 16 MB and not this ridiculous battery life. If this clie can't match an IPAQ's battery life it is useless.

The Toshiba models have a decent battery life (not great but decent). I brought up the Ipaq because it has long been the standard for crappy battery life.

If the pdf is right then Sony has bought into PPC's bs.

Buy a portable harddisk instead.

>-The PDF example pictures are obviously not from >pixel interpolation

Why do you say that? "obviously not?" Have you seen this done before? It gets pretty good. But my question is, why use 4 times the space to save the same amount of info? [Thats what you do if you are interpolating and then saving ]

"-The camera itself would not be taking ~310,000 pixels [in the specs] if it were 320x240 that number would still be the ~76800 if it were just interpolated. The pixel count of the camera itself only changes if a resolution change is actually happening."

Well, it all depends on how you define things! If Sony thinks that Digital Zoom is super then they might say "Hey, this makes it 310 000 pixels!!!". Similar things has been done before.

Remember the m125 thing Palm pulled. "I bet noone notice that the screen only can display 4096 different colors and not 65536 as we say it does. And if they discover it, well come up with this totally phony story of dithering making it fifty-something thousand colors. [ BTW the dithering coverup was a total lie. ]

>-The PDF is an internal document with no motive to lie

If it was internal, there wouldnt be a need for the PDF :) No, the PDF is a promotion to the resellers.

So I'm curious as to where on earth you pulled down the idea that the camera is still only capable of 320x240 when all the evidence points to true 640x480?

-The specs say 640x480. They could obviously "get away" with this small lie, if it were just pixel doubling, but...

-They'd be *blatantly* lying about the pixel count if it weren't. So Palm has done this once, I don't think Sony ever has?

-I doubt they'd put a 2x digital zoom on top of an already "2x digital zoomed" pic. That would look awful.

So what evidence do you have that the camera is only 320x240, with ~70k pixels, when those two sets numbers are mentioned absolutely nowhere, and the 640x480 and ~300k pixels are mentioned everywhere?

Besides the fact that you can't make blurry text readable by some kind of magic algorithm [and yes, even uncompressed, small text is still blurry on an NR70V- go take a pic from a bit of a distance away and try it!]

They wouldnt have to be lying, would they? It is all in how you define things. The 640x480 is true if you mean the resolution of the interpolated photo.

-They'd be *blatantly* lying about the pixel count if it weren't. So Palm has done this once, I don't think Sony ever has?

Again - when does pixels become pixels? When they end up in an image. If they count the pixels in the digital zoomed picture it still is 307k pixels.

"Now thats just PRIME!"

The e310 does NOT have a removeable battery.

I think the reason that Pocket PC's don't have a noticeable speed difference in the 400MHz XScale processors compared to the StrongARM 206 MHz is the OS. Pocket PC 2002 doesn't support the advantages of XScale, so there is ony a slight change in performance. This likey would not be the case for Palm devices. Battery is another story though.

"Now thats just PRIME!"

I know for a fact that if you bought a winME computer from Dell you won't be going to Dell for winxp.

"Now thats just PRIME!"

Atleast you are.

>Sony didn't go into Palm OS and take out some code >and put in their's,

Yes they did. On several places. Sound Manager API is one example.

>they only addin their own APIs on top of those Palm >API.

No, not only.

The questionmark is over Sony offering the upgrade. They haven't been making Palm OS devices that long, so we can't use the track record as an indicator. The biggest problem is, Sony will probably see existing owners as a prime target for purchasing their next device. Hardly a motivator for them to release an update for the discontinued model.

Zuber

The changes Sony have made to support their taller screen / virtual graffiti / DSP / video accelerator / memstick / etc. are too integral in the OS to be separate.

If an update happens, it will come from the vendor that makes the device- just as always.

Glad to know that someone else remembers Hubert Humphey!

Thanks, Robrecht

Glad to see they're teaching him something in that history class at school.

The Linux geek bunch may well produce a set of CF drivers--but it would probably require installing Linux :-) And maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Get rid of the forum! It's completely useless!