Comments on: Palm Expands Internal RAM Capabilities

Well, that would seem to be the reason for Palm to break their 16MB internal memory limit, now wouldn't it?

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An armed society is a polite society.

Cheer up, take this as good news. I'm sure they'll switch to USB 2.0 soon. But as it is, when I'm installing large applications, I don't sync them. I use MSImport to bring them to the MS and then move the file to RAM. Putting a 50 MB file on the card takes a few minutes on MSImport, while it'll take maybe an hour during HotSync. As long as this MSImport solution is available to me, I could care less about Hotsync.

-Bosco
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And MSImport is *not* on the lowly mono S320. Sony was so nice to create class warfare among their users by putting it on the more expensive units. So, I see you are one of these Rich Fat Pigs we must deal with Come the Revolution! (HA!)

USB 2.0 and Firewire -- NOW!

My Compaq Laptop has both Usb 2.0 and Firewire built in. Sony Desktops and laptops hae firewire built in.

At some point Palm will switch from 1.1 to 2.0 or (doubtfully) FW (my preference). But if they don't by say, tomorrow, I don't care. I'd rather have the space than the sync speed.

Or maybe they should just not produce any units with 32MB, 64MB, or even 17MB internal memory until they increase the sync speed. Afterall, it's not like anybody really needs more than that for built-in memory. Or more than 640k.

I'm sure it *never* occurred to Palm that with a lot more memory could probably use a boost in sync speed. If they ever figure it out, I'm sure they'll produce.

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Personally, I think somethings wrong. Mine takes only about 30-60 seconds unless I am also syncing AvantGo or my Mail. Mail is really slow and AvantGo sometimes takes time if it finds a lot of updates.

I've got other conduits running (Bonsai, TimeSync, etc), too. Unless I've made a lot of changes, it's very fast. ...and I'm using serial to sync!

Another thing to check is if you've ever run a program like BackupUpAll. It sets the backup bit on all files in memory. Not a huge issue, except with the big AvantGo file. Since it changes every time you sync, it will then get backed up every time you sync. I had that issue once and had to disable the backup bit manually.

15-20 minutes sounds like the time it took me to sync via Infrared. Gave that up fast!

Rolando

But, my last PC was a 200 Mhz laptop and it was still really fast to sync.

I have about 300 files on my T665.

I still say that there's something else up with your configuration.

Roland

The slow hotsyncing is not because of USB, theres a bottleneck somewhere on the Palm. I think its slow at copying multiple small files

(think DOS ... copy vs xcopy)

It is probably a combo of three things:

1) SmartDoc

2) HS software

3) the s-l-o-w sub-GHz PC I have to use

SmartDoc, BTW, is obsoleteware, but it's the best DOC editor I've ever used and perfect for my current use.

Remove the bottleneck and allow a Palm device to communicate at the full bandwidth of USB 1.0: a sync takes as little as ten seconds.

Allow a Palm device to sync at USB 2.0 or FireWire: a sync takes as little as two seconds.

Allow a Palm device to sync at FireWire 800 (or whatever): a sync takes as little as one second. Instantaneous.

OK, these numbers are a little wild. But there's possibility there! I think people are too used to waiting minutes at a time for their Palm device to finish syncing.

Palm needed to release a faster PDA when it did. People were buying PPCs in droves because they didn't understand that the Palms were more capable ... all they saw were big numbers ... remember, the processors used in the OS5 units won't run OS4 ... also, OS5 added capabilities ...

But, if the CPUs hadn't had the limitation, the OS never would have been written that way - OS programmers, working in *LOW*-level code like they do, used to tend to write for what was available. Now, of course that's changed ...

There is, however, a better example of the principle I stated above - does anyone remember the 640k barrier of the DOS of yore >:)

When MS-DOS 1.0 (Seattle Comnputing's QDOS) was bought, PCs didn't have more than 1 MB of RAM - we were saddled with that bottleneck for years ...

Either way, Palm has finally fixed it ...

http://forum.sorobangeeks.com/viewtopic.php?t=1910

Anyway, here is what a trusted authority site on WinCE says:

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http://www.cewindows.net/faqs/storage.htm

Internal Ram - Limitations

There are some limitations to using internal ram for storage. Prior to Windows CE 3.0, the internal ram for storage was limited to 16 MB. In Windows CE 3.0, this limit has been increase to 256 MB. In Windows CE 1.0 and 2.0, the largest file was limited to 4 MB in size. In Windows CE 2.1 and later, the largest file is limited to 16 Mb. So if you need to use really large files, you should consider using external storage.

==========

256MB max, it says. More than the 64MB I thought.

I don't you of all people have a right to complain about people not knowing what they're talking about! Sheesh...

And I've tried PPCs. Just tried the e755. Just saw the GENIO GD (PXA255 with 128MB RAM) too (alas, battery not charged!).

You seem to tout the hp 2200 series as The Messiah of PDAs. Have you actually USED one, or are you basing everything simply on what you've read online? The ViewSonic V35 is a superior PDA to the hp 1910, so I wouldn't count ViewSonic or any other PPC licensee as out of the miniaturization picture.

hp 2200 isn't out yet. Just because it will be small with two slots doesn't mean it will be GOOD. 1910 has no SDIO or serial I/O in its bottom connector -- so, no WiFi, no keyboard. Duuuuuuuuh.

Dolt! I never said it was an ENGLISH version GD. Your reading comprehension is on par with your grammatical skills. It was a JAPANESE version GD, you whingeing git!

Learn English. NOW --

http://www.americakokki.com/english/english.html

...Silly ska.

-Bosco
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lol.

(I wonder who claims to not be impressed by a screenshot content in foreign language without needing to read it. anybody remember? anybody...? )

anyway... you are in deeper hole than when you begin. I suggest you stop now. LOL.

you know, at least if you pretend to have tried all those devices, get to know the basic fact first before doing the "acting". It's kinda embarrashing getting cought making up story.

64MB limitation my foot.

64 MB RAM (probably half will be needed to run programs anyway), 32 MB NAND Flash ROM for backups, and 32 MB CMOS ROM for the OS.

Happy now? What else are you going to laugh out loud at now? I'll bet you're laughing at you're English teacher's poor attempts to teach your sentence structure and grammar. ;)

-Bosco
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so what is this "user backup" purposes you are referring to can you explain that bit to me?

(man I am having such a big chuckle right now)

mommy...! there some meanie person calling me a liar. sniff sniff...
(Oh well, happy hour is over for me. thanks for the entertainment)

Point is, if you can use it or not is not what we're talking about. The PPC OS is limited to 64 MB RAM. RAM! RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY! You can throw in all the other useful ROM you want, we're talking about RAM! The Palm OS is now expanded to 128 MB RAM (no need for that much, really), while there is a 64 MB RAM limit on the PPC. Do you get this much?

Mike, man, you wuss. Ahh well, it's 11:30 here and I'm not going to bail for another hour at least. Spring break, for ya. Hell, this thread was so fast it felt like a chatroom. And ska's poor sentence structures made it authentic, too.

-Bosco
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BlueAnon, you blitering idiot, if you know so much about PPCs, then you know the same damned NAND ROM in the e570 is in the V35 too -- ViewSonic set aside about 5MB for user backup of data. The diff being that the NAND ROM on the V35 also stores the OS and apps (unlike the e750/55, where the OS and apps are in "normal" ROM).

Ed Wood, Jr -- save us!!

Hey, isn't it a bit odd that 128 MB RAM are in a JAPANESE model, which has to run a differnet version of the PPC OS? I mean, after all, an NR70v/U runs a different version of OS 4.1 than an NR70v/J. Could it be that the limitation isn't in the Japanese version? Hmm, interesting. You have still yet to provide proof that any PPC model available to the US market has 128 MB RAM. There is a 64 MB RAM limitation and you know it. Come on. You can do it. Just admit it. It's not hard.

Mike, you might want to take a nap before rushing into *battle* again. Sleep deprivation is the last thing you want here. I should be able to hold down the PIC FORT from here. That is, until Ryan logs on and bans us all.

-Bosco
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http://www.pocketpctechs.com/detail.asp?Product_ID=I39-064-128RAM

I told you it was StrongARM limitation (the chipset) not the OS. The CE3.0 can go up to 2Gig, and 4.2 is going up to 2T

I had a buddy back in the early 90's who loaded a RAM disk each time his system booted. A 200MB RAM disk, which was loaded with the entire contents of his 200MB hard disk. He preferred the performance boost. I won't go into how stupid I thought this sounded, but let's just say he had one of the SLOWEST booting systems around, but once it was booted, it FLEW!

Until Windows GPFed, that is...

Ick

I am not saying EVERYONE needs 128M. When NO ONE can have 128MB, that suck.

Sony are shipping the Netfront 3.0 browser on their OS5 machines, which I believe is the same browser that comes with the Tungsten T (different name, though?). It handles 90% of what I need a web browser to do. Certainly, well designed sites are fine, it's when they rely a little too much on IE features that it falls down.

-James.

I don't know about you, but I'd hate to have to wait 30 seconds for my address book to boot up, just to write down a bloody phone number...

for Flash memory generally there are two types of popular design, NAND and NOR. high end iPAQ currently use 40MB NOR. NAND has different circuit design making it a much smaller package and cheaper because of less cabling. But this at the cost of access speed making it unsuitable to execute code directly from it, that's why codes need to be transfered to DRAM before running them. NAND size will keep growing, notice how E755 can spare 32MB of it's ROM for user access out of the 64MB, while NOR will pretty much settle around 40MB for a while.

storage space in PPC is just that, storage space. wherever there is memory the os can manage, be it ROM, RAM, or external storage, program can be kept in there.

don't get too desparate explaining how 16MB in Palm is superior than 64 or 128MB of RAM in PPC. It's embarrassing. It's like trying to explain how station wagon is that much more usefull than a pick up truck because your mom can put more groceries in it.

It's irrelevant in general situation.

but US dictionary only, not installing the pan european or the british will bring down the wordprocessor to 3 MB. not installing any dictionary will bring it to 2MB or so.

and no, it is not even in the same class as wordsmith since it is a ture wordprocessor instead of a conduit client like wordsmith.

2. all the big apps can be installed in external memory. DTG cannot, wordsmith cannot, reducing option what the main RAM can be used for.

3.so HOW did you connect to corporate network may I ask? (ooops, conduit)

4.yeah really, why would anybody need anything. (creating pictured doc? watching .mpeg? .mp3? ... )

5.Wordsmith fits in ROM? (yeah and I can installed Textmaker directly to my brain too)

if your claim is true:
a. 65kb ftx browser will only need 30kb, instead of up to several MB depending on browser cache set aside.
b. pMVP will need 2MB space instead of less than 1-200kb for .mp3 or 1 to whaever freespace for .AVI video chace if you turn it on.
c. BugLord will need 40MB run time space instead of 10-20MB for a 5MB app (data files included)
d. Texmaker, the mother of all big productivity apps, will need 12 MB instead of 2-3MB run time
e. dragon voice recognition will need only 5 MB instead of the required 64MB runtime.

...there I even help you prove how bloated PPC apps can be.... (ooo palmie rejoice.. lol )

(but of course your brain will explode in disbelieve if told that 5MB spare memory is more than enough for almost all apps runtime, except the biggest of the biggest, which is a moot point since POS don't even come near to be able to ovver such class of applications. But try harder, you might even believe your own BS.)

Percentage wise?

"2. all the big apps can be installed in external memory. DTG cannot, wordsmith cannot, reducing option what the main RAM can be used for."

DTG requires a core module in RAM or ROM which occupies 145K, all the other modules run fine from expansion. WS, like has already been stated, runs from RAM, ROM, or expansion.

"3.so HOW did you connect to corporate network may I ask? (ooops, conduit)"

WiFi, Bluetooth, or RAS. RAS connection is my most common method.

"4.yeah really, why would anybody need anything. (creating pictured doc? watching .mpeg? .mp3? ... )"

Illogical conclusion. If I don't need imbedded pictures of the Sphinx, then I don't need to brush my teeth... right?

"5.Wordsmith fits in ROM? (yeah and I can installed Textmaker directly to my brain too)"

WordSmith is installed in ROM right now, and DTG, and DualDate, and FileZ, and LauncherX, and McFile, and MobileDB, plus a few others and I still have 144k left over.

First, with larger memory devices now possible, more devices will have large dynamic heaps. While the Sony NX and NZ devices only had 11MB of storage RAM, they had huge (4MB) dynamic heaps.

Second, the new SDK has a MemGluePtrNew call that can allocate >64K chunks on the dynamic heap, joining the existing FtrPtrNew call for allocating >64K chunks in storage memory.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

Yes, PalmSource should have done a better job making analogues to the internal database system for VFS files, but using VFS from a program isn't too difficult. Having a system like PiDirect II built into the OS would have been bad, IMO -- what happens if a user loads an app off the card, goes to the first form, switches cards, and then tries to go to another form -- the app crashes because the second form hadn't been loaded off the card yet.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

Ben Combee: Right now memory cards *present* a huge usability problem, that's why I want Palm to focus
on addressing this issue and not just adding more
internal memory. In my capacity as a technology
trainer, this is one of the more frustrating areas in introducting Palms to new users. They expect the Palm to behave like a digital camera ("Great, now I have more memory!"). Instead I spend a great deal of time training people on how to copy applications to cards("Why can't I *move* them?") and other "file" management issues.

MSTCrowT: I don't mean to imply that Palm should allow users address all memory as one contigious block, rather, that there should be a memory manager which understands expansion cards.

mikecane: IANAPPCD, but my understanding is that the PPC uses it's internal memory to maintain a file allocation table that can reference either memory bank. The PPC memory manager tries to keep files "in their place". Regardless of how it works internally, this is one of the few areas where PPC blows the doors of Palm in usability and simplicity. Put in a card, you get more memory.

Ben Combee (again): I am not proposing that Palm OS become yet another file-based operating system, or that Palm implement a file dialog, require saving, or any of the other asanine requirements from the desktop world. I just want adding an expansion card into my Palm to give me more memory, no questions asked.

PiDirect is something that Palm should have built into the operating system. It acts as a sort of memory manager, and it's frustrating to realize that there will probably never be a PiDirect for OS5. Hopefully Palm will ship better memory management in OS6.

Palm Researcher at the University of Texas at Austin
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/petrosino/pda

Gee, that was tough. And it's all neat and in order, too. Guess I can store all those multimedia and enterprise apps pretty easily, huh?

-Bosco
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Now, while this applies to picture viewing and third-party applications, I'm trying to show you that the Palm OS is capable of a reasonable file system on the card. VFS, if you will. In RAM, it's anything goes, and I'd love it much more if you could organize files in it like the card. Or... if you could store regular JPG's in it, at least, or any other file than PRC and PDB. God that's annoying. Let's hope Palm OS 6 clears this up.

-Bosco
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I think (as BC explained it) Palm has got the approach to memory cards right. What annoys the heck out of me is applications that won't run off the Memory Card because they don't look on the card for extra databases. So we end up using apps like Power Run.

My aged n770c has 3Mb of Ram spare, which is plenty to run the software and files I have on various MS. However I have to use Powerrun for most my games.

Some software like Biblereader works with the card great. I put the 16Mb stick in and I have multiple translations read off the stick without a hitch.

PalmOS should stick with the VFS model, because its internal memory simplicity is what has made it so nippy and memory efficient.

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

I just don't understand why applications aren't written to work off a card. I have emailed some developers asking why software I bought from them didn't run off an expansion card, and the answer was pretty much 'gee hadn't thought of that'.

However non power users don't seem to be using the 16Mb that they have. Only as more new applications take up more than 1 mb (games . . .) are the average consumers going to need either POS devices with 32 - 128 Mb of internal Ram or 100% of Applications to run straight off a card if 'installed to card' thru the hotsync manager.

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

I am just saying that you should not need to know about creator IDs, and so on. You turn your PDA on and it works. The systems in place are fine. They work.

I think we're comfortable with the message "Please Insert Disk to Continue" and I'm not unwilling to see this on my Palm. Anyone else have thoughts here?

This message is for your PC. A handheld should be quick, snappy easy and simple. When you need info on the fly, its there, and you don't need to search for notebooks or memory cards.

Silly you, everyone knows Palms can usually stay up longer...