Comments on: Pretec Demonstrates New SDIO Cards
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RE: Wow!
RE: Wow!
http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=1849
--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630
RE: Wow!
- Sandisk (Scheduled Q1 2004)
- Hagiwara Sys-Com (Scheduled Q3 2003)
- C-Guys (Scheduled May 2004)
- Pretec (Q2 2004)
RE: Wow!
RE: Wow!
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Wow!
As to who will be first with POS drivers, I'm betting either C-Guys or this new Pretec thing. C-Guys may have great (if automated) responses to costomet inqueiries, but Pretec seems more committed to releasing a full product line, which means they will be more willing to invest in more programmers to write the drivers.
The Federation for the Responsible Use of Acronyms
I'm counting on them....
A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.
12 GIGS!
No memory, no go
Most (all?) PalmOS PDAs have only one SD slot, and that is usually filled with a memory card. Being forced to remove the memory to be able to wifi seems pretty pointless.
Atul Chitnis
http://atulchitnis.net
RE: No memory, no go
Donald
RE: No memory, no go
Atul Chitnis
http://atulchitnis.net
RE: No memory, no go
Makes me miss the days of the truly "upgradable" Pilot & Palm IIIx!
Basically, any aftermarket peripheral that I've ever seen is more of a kludge than anything else, whether it's a lame SDIO camera or a bulky BT/WI-FI card with outdated or non-existent drivers.
IMHO, a novel feature would be having one SDIO slot exposed (for something like wi-fi) and then an internal mini-SD port (covered like a GSM phone's sim card slot) that is used solely for expansion memory. Something like this would fit on a T|C sized unit. Of course, with that you'd need USB 2.0 support on the Palm when Hotsyncing since it'd be a pain to remove an internal mini SD card to load large files onto it...
RE: No memory, no go
Jon
SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
And here's a nice history lesson:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=1011
Palm should have gone with CompactFlash.
2) Only a couple of PalmOS devices have been released with dual expansion slots, so without included memory most SDIO cards would be useless.
3) The market for these SDIO cards is tiny and it will soon be shrinking as PDA sales bottom out + more and more PDAs ship with built-in Bluetooth, 802.11b, GPS, etc. Designs like the European CLIE TH-55 or the UX-50 are the future. FrankenPalms with various SD attachments sticking out of them are for geeks only.
It's massive. Massive.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Just because there are PDAs with SD slots does not mean people will buy SDIO cards. Once you add up the cost of the cards and consider the inconvenience (using up your memory slot) it starts making more sense to buy a new PDA with built in Bluetooth/802.11b/GPS/etc. if you need those features.
Very few people will buy these cards (if they are ever released.) Remember the Springboard module fiascos?
It's massive. Massive.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Pretec's lineup looks to be solid, because it addresses areas where they may still may have a market. A WiFi card won't bust down doors, but it will sell. So will a bar code scanner card. Camera cards? That remains to be seen. Personally, I'd rather have the camera card than a built-in, but that's just me.
I like the "FrankenPalm" term, but to me, that applies to an old Visor Dx with a massive Springboard mp3 player hanging off the back--or worse yet, a Visor Edge, with a sled, with the massive SB mp3 player. (Yikes!) I'm not sure I would use such a term with regard to a Tungsten series PDA with 1/2" extra SD for WiFi. Built-in is better, but that'd be pretty low-profile.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Even a WiFi card with memory would be cumbersome and would require constant swapping of cards and copying of data - Just not worth the trouble in my opinion.
16 months ago these would have sold well just because there were few other options. Now it just makes more sense to get a new Wi-Fi equipped PDA like the T-C, TH-55, or the T4(?)
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
SD shouldn't have over-hyped themselves YEARS before they could deliver the goods.
The goods are now being delivered elsewhere differently, and far less people care that you can get it on a card.
Hey, the folks who were originally enamoured were all running OS4 machines back then, and they're all boned because you need OS5 at least!
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
802.11, SDIO, and 64 MB...
Nokia 3650 bluetooth magnate
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
And there's the bottom line. CF II has endless possibilities. It's small enough to be included in small handhelds (H2215), yet contains enough connectors to give a lighting fast speed, as well as enough space to give huge storage capacity (even hard drives) and room for true peripherals. PalmOne models that don't have integrated Wifi can't use it at all in the SD slot. CF handhelds have had access to Wifi for years. And GPS. And everything else.
Why is Palm still sticking with SDIO? Drop it while you're ahead, each Palm sold has more than enough room and depth for a CF slot, and bundle an SD->CF converter with every new model.
Sony almost got it right with the NX series. That why I've owned three NX models.
-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Why is Palm still sticking with SDIO? Drop it while you're ahead, each Palm sold has more than enough room and depth for a CF slot, and bundle an SD->CF converter with every new model.
Perhaps Panasonic paid Palm to choose SD as their expansion standard. In a few months, this won't really matter. As the CLIE TH-55 and UX series have shown, integrated connectivity options are the future. With Garmin's next model sporting GPS, Bluetooth AND 802.11b and the new UX having Bluetooth, 802.11b and a expansion that can actually be used, SDIO will quickly go the way of the dinosaurs. The similarities between Vaporware SDIO and the Visor Vaporware Springboard debacle are hilarious.
Re: Mr. Face is Always right. Stop resistance, it's futile.
Let me get this straight....
You would trash a WiFi SD because of the protruding, geeky tab. And, as if that wasn't nonsense enough (do you mean the Palm itself is not geeky?), you start advocating the so many times bigger CF. Take a look at PIC's NX70v review, I guess THAT would be franken'.
Wouldn't you prefer a dual SD slot rather than such a bulk? (in fact, I guess you could have about a 8x slot... :D ). Or, wouldn't you prefer more memory / battery / whatever instead of the huge space used by the CF slot? I certainly would.
I'm not denying the some advantages that CF would bring. But, are you denying SD's advantages? (and, did you know? They keep developing still smaller form factors, the weirdos!)
My non-professional (but certainly not toy-ish) camera uses SD, and that was a big plus for liking the T3 - I can use the same cards on both.
Next, you enlighten us about how useless a WiFi card without memory is. Heh. Yep, if you don't want WiFi, it certainly is useless. How stoopid. "Hey, I took away your ethernet card, but don't worry, I just installed some more memory. Smile, life is good!".
I, for one, want WiFi, partially to REPLACE memory. I would download on demand the files that I had to store locally before. Have you heard about network volumes and such? And about WiFile? (of course, perhaps the OS could make (/ have made) that easier).
Next, you open our eyes to the mindbogglingly tiny SDIO market. Yeah, famine and abject failure will strike whomever dares to try going into that. We should tell all those mismanaged companies to stop trying!
How many people would open a fscking new world for their older palms with a WiFi SD? How many people would be able to buy a non-WiFi palm, knowing that the upgrade path would be there? You seem to second the message hinted by Palm: people that don't buy wireless capable devices surely won't ever need that! So: but it all at once, or get the fsck off! (or get a PocketPC, of course - you know, those joke PDAs that sport upgrade options, the fools)
I guess this all comes from the same wisdom that made you say that Java is useless. Always so quick to invoke doom for whatever you don't fancy and to predict future bliss from whoever you like. By the way, how do you manage to plug Sony on (virtually?) all your posts? Funny.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
It doesn't matter how many - SDIO has proven much more complicated than CF in terms of creating peripherals. It took zero effort on Sony's part to include a CF II slot with their WL-100/WL-110 cards because the cards were already in easy development. With SDIO, the size is so tiny and the bottlenecks are greater. I ask you - why have none of the four companies porting SDIO Wifi cards have it ready yet? It's been almost two years. But yet Memory Stick has a Hagiwara Wifi card available for it. CF has had dozens of Wifi cards available for it. The next stop for CF is 802.11g (why you would want it is so far beyond me, but the idea itself is staggering). SDIO is critically lagging behind, no matter how many cameras or MP3 players use it. And let's not forget you can buy one of the dime-a-dozen SD->CF converters to get your digicam's SD card in your Palm through CF.
Okay, what more proof do these companies need that CF is the way to go?
-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
I'd say that miniaturization isn't really a problem (except for microdrives :P). As we all have seen, what was impossible yesterday, today is just a bit expensive, and tomorrow will be on the commodity side.
why have none of the four companies porting SDIO Wifi cards have it ready yet?
I certainly don't know. But I've read before that Palm* has not been too cooperative with those companies. The fact that the very Palm* has a Bluetooth SD card which they themselves have neglected to make usable on OS 5 makes me think that they're just not interested.
Now, about the convenience of CF or "the way to go". Get me right: I don't care which slot the device has. The more and better, the merrier! (...and we'll decide later which device fits us better). My point was: it's QUITE ridiculous to trash SD cards as "frankenwhatever" and still advocate for the bulky CF. About as ridiculous as saying that expansion options are a non-issue because everything will be thrown in. Well, heh, I just remembered when our friend Facey told me to buy an iQue when I complained that TomTom Navigator still wasn't available for OS 5. He's THAT funny: "do you want a program for your year old device? Then buy some new device!" Whew.
But, back to the subject: the way to go? I'm no hardware designer! But I'd rather have CF's space used by a greater battery, for example. I guess an external sleeve with extra connectivity/slots, like (some?) PPCs, would be a nice option. (Just my 0.02$...)
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Also OEM *brains*. Let's not forget Palm's history... and there are still people on the Board(s) who *created* that damnable history. Resign, Eric the Red!
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
You would trash a WiFi SD because of the protruding, geeky tab. And, as if that wasn't nonsense enough (do you mean the Palm itself is not geeky?), you start advocating the so many times bigger CF. Take a look at PIC's NX70v review, I guess THAT would be franken'.
Wouldn't you prefer a dual SD slot rather than such a bulk? (in fact, I guess you could have about a 8x slot... :D ). Or, wouldn't you prefer more memory / battery / whatever instead of the huge space used by the CF slot? I certainly would.
Palm Vx geeky? CLIE UX-50 geeky? I don't think so.
CF slots do not add significantly to the size of a PDA. HandEra and HP have shown this fairly conclusively. It's all a matter of designing the PDA properly.
You've naïvely swallowed the SD consortium's propaganda. Hook, line and sinker. SD is for suckers. CF is for people that appreciate superior design and function. We know which camp you're in.
I'm not denying the some advantages that CF would bring. But, are you denying SD's advantages? (and, did you know? They keep developing still smaller form factors, the weirdos!)
My non-professional (but certainly not toy-ish) camera uses SD, and that was a big plus for liking the T3 - I can use the same cards on both.
What is SD's advantage other than a slightly smaller form factor - which is of limited importance in a device as big as a PDA. The size "advantage" is akin to saying one car is better because it has a smaller ashtray.
Next, you enlighten us about how useless a WiFi card without memory is. Heh. Yep, if you don't want WiFi, it certainly is useless. How stoopid. "Hey, I took away your ethernet card, but don't worry, I just installed some more memory. Smile, life is good!".
I, for one, want WiFi, partially to REPLACE memory. I would download on demand the files that I had to store locally before. Have you heard about network volumes and such? And about WiFile? (of course, perhaps the OS could make (/ have made) that easier).
OK RocketBoy, where are you going to STORE those files you just downloaded? On your Palm's built-in 16 - 32 MB of memory? (Assuming you didn't don't have any programs actually installed on your Palm in the first place...) Real smart.
Next, you open our eyes to the mindbogglingly tiny SDIO market. Yeah, famine and abject failure will strike whomever dares to try going into that. We should tell all those mismanaged companies to stop trying!
The Springboard debacle is about to repeat itself. The SDIO companies are going to make the Parachute look like a stroke of genius by comparison. http://www.unilinear.com/main.html
How many people would open a fscking new world for their older palms with a WiFi SD? How many people would be able to buy a non-WiFi palm, knowing that the upgrade path would be there? You seem to second the message hinted by Palm: people that don't buy wireless capable devices surely won't ever need that! So: but it all at once, or get the fsck off! (or get a PocketPC, of course - you know, those joke PDAs that sport upgrade options, the fools)
Wake up buddy.
1) Very few people ever upgrade their Palms. It's been that way since way back when Palm and TRG were offering memory upgrades to the early Palms. Edumacate yourself. Or at least ask someone who's been around long enough to have seen it all. This kind of peripheral is designed for power users - the very people that would shun 802.11b SD cards in favor of a shiny new PDA with wireless already integrated.
2) The cost of the upgrade typically means it makes more sense to just buy a new Palm that has the features already integrated (+ more memory, better screen, new warranty, new software, etc.)
3) Fewer PDAs are being sold each quarter - the market is already drying up.
I guess this all comes from the same wisdom that made you say that Java is useless. Always so quick to invoke doom for whatever you don't fancy and to predict future bliss from whoever you like. By the way, how do you manage to plug Sony on (virtually?) all your posts? Funny.
Java IS useless. Seen any good Java Palm apps recently? What's that? Can't hear you, buddy. Have a seat.
Of all Palm licencees, Sony is making the best hardware right now. No doubt you disagree and feel Acer is the best. Despite this, Sony repeatedly makes bonehead moves like their delay in putting out a 320 x 480 version of the 760 series, failing to include Bluetooth in the North American TH-55 (forcing customers to get gouged by Expansys), not putting in their best screen into the UX-40/50, using horrible button layouts, dumping their slick Jog Dial, crippling the CF slots (to protect their Memory Stick investment), etc., etc. But their PDAs make Palm's look like overprice c r a p. Sorry.
(Even Caneman and his sidekick Boy Bosco wold agree with me 100%. Scary)
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
You just don't get it. First of all, incorporating a CF slot into a PDA doesn't take significantly more space than SD does. Really. Secondly, I have nothing against sticking expansion cards into PDAs, but if you can get a feature like Bluetooth of 802.11b integrated into the PDA it makes a much better solution. Had Palm gone with CompactFlash, they would probably have been able to offer (i.e. actually SELL, not just show vaporware designs) a number of working peripherals years ago when integrated devices were scarce.
In 2004 you can buy a new Bluetooth or 802.11b PalmOS device for only $200 - $300. Who do you think will buy a Bluetooth or 802.11b SD card for $100 - $150? No one. Just like no one will buy an SD camera when their PDA already comes with one. By the end of the year, every mid and high level PDA should have integrated Bluetooth, camera and 802.11b. These SD cards are too late to the market by about two years.
Awww, Facey... go google for "network volume"
I have just the time to answer the funniest line. But I think I've got a shock for you!! ROTF!!! I would NOT store the files, just ACCESS them! Kinda like, you know, your web browser? Or opening docs over the network? Or displaying 10 Gb worth of JPGs over the network? (the important part is, you know, "over the network")
Try googling for "network volumes". Or for WiFile. XD
Of course, if you still advocate for "Palm's are just glorified agendas", then there's no reason for all of this. But then there's no reason either to get past early OS 4 devices... I 'd love to see you explain Tungstens in that context.
A good laugh in the morning... life is good.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
(I didn't want the troll to bask in such easy nit-picking! XD )
Looks like someone's had a frosty "brain freeze"
Let's see: you're going to pop an 802.11b card into a 16 MB Palm so you can "display 10 GB worth of JPEGs over the network". And this is supposed to be "Kinda like, you know, your web browser". This is weak - even for you, Frosty.
First of all, how many people do you think actually would do what you apparently claim to do? Secondly, as you're accessing your precious collection of Paris Hilton JPEGs, do you think there's a chance you might actually want to store some of them on your PDA?
At least you now realize that browsers DOWNLOAD the info they read. Good for you. Did someone help you with that one?
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Storing locally the files? The point is, I WOULDN'T NEED TO. If I have a 200 Gb hard disk on my computer, why should I need an n Mb card on my PDA while I'm nearby?
About the browser downloading: yeah, I got too eager there. My fault. Though, as you may (but surely don't) know, modern OSes (no, not Palm OS) are able to access FTP servers and present them like a shared folder - bridging the same gap I had leapt here. And I guess such a solution would be nice for lots of uses, and should not be difficult to implement: transparently downloading the file, local caching for access / edit and finally uploading if modified. Implementable over HTTP or FTP, no need for file sharing protocols, minimum potential for problems.
Nice to see you trying to shoot easy jokes. Feeling the heat? Heh.
I forgot... uselessness of Java, by FFFF
Java IS useless. Seen any good Java Palm apps recently? What's that? Can't hear you, buddy. Have a seat.
OF COURSE THERE ARE NO GOOD JAVA PALM APPS. You need a GOOD JAVA VM for that, and Palm OS DOES NOT HAVE ONE!!!!!
***pant, pant, pant***
In fact it's not even a chicken - egg problem: the very moment an ACCEPTABLE JVM appeared on Palm, a fscking universe of Java apps would be usable on Palm OS!!
Should I count the JVMs available for PPCs?
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
I might also like to have an SD camera if it does in fact have some memory on it, just so I've got something with me when I leave the bulky digital camera at home. Yes, I know it'll be a pain to carry an SD camera with me, but not nearly the pain that carrying my Olympus digital is. I can make room.
Can't believe some of you are yelling and screaming about how SD is such a pain because you have to change cards to use SD devices. Oh yeah, what a hassle. Click.... (card out) click..... (card in) Wow, I'm exhausted. And let me get this straight, you want CF, so you would have me buy a whole new Palm if it came out with CF slots to get the accessories that they are trying to come out with on SD? I'm not following the logic.
I know that PIC is mostly power users, but some of us "common guys" really laugh at how you argue and bicker when something comes along that you 1.) aren't interested in and/or 2.) don't like. You assume that no one wants it and no one will buy it. I refer you to the original Palm Zire. 2MB of memory? Monochrome screen? No backlight? Yeah, it was a big failure - just like many of you predicted. If you want the latest & greatest when it comes out with the features you want, by all means go get it! But quit treating those of us that just might want something to expand what we've got like idiots. And I'm sure there are lots of us... many who don't read PIC and can't respond to you.
Please don't trip over my soapbox on the way out. Thank you.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
However, let's go on. I think I'm as qualified as any one here to advance you an answer in the name of our Favourite Freak Facey F(r)iend, so I'll have a shoot.
First of all: you want to upgrade? How drool. You can get a nice Clie wich does exactly what you want, only for a few bucks more. However, note that you are not a valid sample of Palm's market. The future is Everything Included (TM).
(yeah, I heard you already have a device or two. So what? In fact, if you are after map software or the like, you should buy a Garmin iQue. Yes, there is some logic to it - trust me.)
Next: clearly you have no idea about what is good for you. We need CF. SD is BS.
At least, you admit that having memory on the SD would be nice - so maybe I'll spare your life. Just maybe.
You point out that some companies are trying to come out with some SDIO devices. Forget it. Since I postulate that there is no market, those products will never exist, and rightly so. Period. Yeah, they're various companies trying to do it, so what? I said there's no market. And who knows better, me or them?. Stop whining! Bask instead in Palm's magnificence, since everything outside these walls is a barren desert devoid of joy. I mean, PPCs are a joke. Everybody knows that, except for some uninformed people that soon will drag themselves back, asking for forgiveness and quick, merciful death.
Oh, and... careful with the censorship. You know, they're after us.
(out of curiosity: do you know what a folder is? because that would make you a Power User, effectively taking you further apart from Palm's target market. Yeah, you heard right: it's not that Palm could provide some logical things, it's you that are asking for too much)
I just had to do it. I'm ready for your love, FFFF!
ROF!!!!!
(Nusm, sorry for getting you into the crossfire ;).
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
***pant, pant, pant***
Winter = one of the many faces of Mike Cane? There's treatment available for Multiple Personality Disorder, Mike.
JAVA for Palm is more vaporware that should have been laid to rest years ago. Java is dead. Let it go. Move on now. Nothing to see here, folks.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
People that want SDIO aren't idiots. The point is there aren't a lot of you that will be willing to pay for these cards if/when they're ever released. This is the Springboard Killing Field all over again. You might want to pick up a UniLinear Parachute ASAP and get the Rube Goldberg connector to hook it up to your PDA.
CLDC & CDC - And on... and on...
Maybe, just maybe, if you try to get your head out of your a55 and see what's going on here in the outside, you'll find a lot of new things. Just as you did about network volumes and such (those were shocking, eh? do you realize now why a WiFi SD can be interesting, even without memory?).
Man, Google is your friend (your only friend? :). Try searching for "what is a jvm?", with the quotes and all. Then search for "jvm pda palm pocketpc", this time without the quotes. Read a little bit. And lastly, try to understand what a CLDC device is; look for something like, "cldc cdc java devices". You know, a CLDC JVM is what Palm* offers for the Tungstens; lesser pocket PCs have a variety of CDC JVMs, which is BETTER than CLDC
(just as a hint, that L in CLDC means Limited. That's because CLDC was thought for mobile phones and the like with less than 200Kb of RAM and 16 bit processors, while CDC was designed for machines with more than 2Mb of RAM and 32 bits processors - and is MUCH closer to a desktop JVM).
With all the data there, try to think. And eventually you'll realize that Palm's situation is GROSS.
So: for sure Java is non-existant on the Palm. Heh.
-------------------------
I keep collecting questions that you don't seem to notice. Pity, that would give us a glimpse of your great knowledge. Please share that wisdom, man. I'll recapitulate the two I can remember now.
1) I asked you some time ago, when you said that Java is useless, what did you think about Eclipse, that excellent IDE, MADE IN JAVA, that coincidentally has been adopted as Palm*'s official development tool.
1b) Can you explain why PPCs have a range of Java VMs to choose from? Is that just another example of stupidity from them?
2) I asked you why do you suppose that "MP3 users don't know what a folder is, so Palm OS does not need a filesystem". It's interesting because Palm OS devices include media player software; some of the devices are even promoted as simply doubling as MP3 players, which can only be effectively done thru some NASTY kludging because of the abysmal support for folders and such high tech. Oh, and you need an expansion card, even if your RAM is empty.
I guess there will be no answers still, but I like to keep that on your face. Heh.
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
Anyway, Java for Palm is dead - or more precisely was never alive. It's even less useful than AppForge was/is. I'll type this slowly, since I know you can't read so fast: the fact that JAVA can (barely) work on a desktop does not mean it's of any use in a PDA environment. As usual, JAVA's theoretical advantages are never borne out in reality. Wake up and smell the coffee, Frosty. PPC needs all the environments it can get because the program base and OS generally lag far behind Palm. But "even" your precious JAVA cannot save PPC from its hopeless underpinnings.
What makes more sense is something like SHARK - at least it doesn't try to pound a square peg into a round hole the way JAVA does.
Palm does not need a traditional file system because most users don't need it. So what if you want one? Get over it. Palms are PDAs - not shrunken desktops. You obviously are unable to appreciate this reality, but that isn't Palm's fault. If a file system is really so crucial to you, you should move to another PDA OS. I'd suggest you give Apple's Newton a look.
Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,
Your turn, Facey :D
Are you sure it wasn't Palm*'s CEO?
seeing their problems in black and white on Palminfocenter must have got them steamed
Yeah, looks you're the only one here broadcasting Palm's problems.
Anyway, Java for Palm is dead - or more precisely was never alive.
That was my point.
the fact that JAVA can (barely) work on a desktop does not mean it's of any use in a PDA environment. (& more blahblah)
I still see no answer to the CLDC issue, wich to me would explain a lot of things about the status of Java for PalmOS. Would you mind getting more specific, or would that demand too much knowledge from you?
PPC needs all the environments it can get because the program base and OS generally lag far behind Palm.
I already mentioned that monsters like MAME got ported time ago to PPC, while I don't see any sign of that happening soon on Palm. I'll try to pre-digest this for you: that means that PORTING, i.e., just recompiling something for PPC, seems to be quite easier than for Palm.
But let's get specific. There was some gaming framework that just recenly got available for Palm, while it had been for a long time on PPC - or was I the only one to hear that?
There is RIGHT NOW a number of software apps that have appeared before for PPC and lag behind for Palm - and when they appear, if they do, they are only expected for some devices and not others... like Tom Tom Navigator 2, available for T3 but not much more. Please, point out some reverse cases. I'll be interested on knowing them.
Have you seen lately any news here on PIC about software that is getting ported NOW to Palm OS?(from PPC, of course)
In that light, I'd consider Java on PPC as icing on an already interesting cake.
But "even" your precious JAVA cannot save PPC from its hopeless underpinnings.
Yeah, they're doomed.
Palm does not need a traditional file system because most users don't need it.
You still haven't explained
(1) how can you pretend that MP3 users don't know what a folder is (as a lamest excuse to say they don't need them), and
(2) how can you pretend that leaving all the SLOWLY (pronounced "hotsync") uploaded MP3 as a steaming heap on a SINGLE directory (i.e., no hierarchy) on a NEEDED card (even if you have 60 Mb of free, non-extra-battery-consuming internal RAM) is somehow "user-friendly".
Palms are PDAs - not shrunken desktops.
As I said, I don't want a desktop, I want to treat my 400 MHz, 64 Mb RAM, 480x320 screen device as just that: an incredible piece of hardware. Why am I forced to leave it as a "glorified agenda", as you put it?
You should see "our" streaming video app on PPC and Zaurus - using Java's JMF. It's quite shocking. :D. And you know, they're also just PDAs. Or are they?
you should move to another PDA OS. I'd suggest you give Apple's Newton a look.
Interesting. Their problem was that they asked too much from the limited hardware. T3 are the exact opposite: powerful hardware, retarded half-witted OS.
Hey, what is that noise at the door? Oh no, Palm's bullies! they're coming! I talked too much! ....
Ah... just the postman. False alarm. Whew. (got it? got it? :P )
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
That's a pretty *BIG* assumption on your part that there aren't a lot that would be willing to pay for the cards, isn't it? Exactly what are you basing your numbers on, the fact that you don't want an SDIO device?!? Not a large sampling, huh? The people who post on PIC? As I stated before, I'm sure there are a good number of "average Joe" users who don't know or care that PIC exists, so I wouldn't call this an accurate sampling either.
These SDIO products are just like anything else. If they can get them available with a reasonable price, I feel that there will be a market for them. Might I be wrong? Yep. But I don't think you can speak for every Palm owner when you say there won't be a market for this stuff. Last time I checked, every PalmOne being sold has an SD slot, and I don't see CF coming anytime soon. So, while you will sit around and lament about SD, many users will buy the SDIO stuff - myself included. Heck, they still sell a fair number of those old sled modems, and how big and bulky were they?!? An SD modem would surely be smaller!
RE: SDIO is useless vaporware. Stop fooling yourselves.
The statement is based on past demand for this type of peripheral and the fact that most future PalmOS devices will have many of these features already included. You may not like this, but no one's going to buy SDIO peripherals - assuming they're actually released. (And right now, that's a pretty big assumption.) These peripherals weren't worth the time the manufacturers spent developing them.
You like me! You really like me!
I think Facey doesn't get it
The statement is based on past demand for this type of peripheral
I think Nusm's statement was based on your continued postulation of whatever you feel like. Yes, past demand was whatever. So? Do you mean that things will be like that for ever and ever?
and the fact that most future PalmOS devices will have many of these features already included.
Some people won't care if the T6 includes WiFi and ToFu; since my presently owned T3 doesn't include it, I for sure will first consider (***horror shock***) upgrading.
Would you care to explain your SDIO phobia in light of things like the Enfora WiFi thingie? People seemed interested on it, didn't they?
You may not like this, but no one's going to buy SDIO peripherals
You mean you have seen our future? ...oh man... tell me more, please... XD
...or do you mean that there is some physics law that impedes any SDIO buying in the known universe?
- assuming they're actually released. (And right now, that's a pretty big assumption.)
You said that "your sources said" that Palm's Bluetooth SD card's drivers for OS 5 were to appear before summer.
Are your sources now better than then? (*chuckle*)
These peripherals weren't worth the time the manufacturers spent developing them.
Well, certainly they seem to think differently. All four companies - was that the number?. Now, who should we regard better? You, PIC's troll magnific, or them?
And, since your funny opinions / postulates won't matter much, well, I think the race goes on :).
Hopefully they'll start making money (from that worthless developing time) while you keep your (worthy) trolling here. Heh.
Facey: "It's so easy to program for PalmOS"
Facey, you also talked (out of your amazing and wide knowledge) about the easyness of programming for Palm OS as an advantage against PocketPC. I asked you for some example. I admittedly have little idea about programming for Palm OS nor for Pocket PC, but I'm interested in the subject and have been looking for some info. So, while I have little hard data (which I'd like you to supply, Facey), I keep finding some signs pointing to PocketPCs being "easier to program" (to put it as simple as you did :).
I already pointed out that monsters like MAME got ported to PocketPCs some time ago, and a Palm port doesn't look like happening any time soon. And now I've found this:
http://www.qland.de/qed/pafpage.htm#qedbirth
You start to appear as reliable as your sources :D.
(naturally, the fact that they have some good Java VMs to choose from only helps them a little bit more... :D)
Any Mainstream Apps for Barcode Reader?
RE: Any Mainstream Apps for Barcode Reader?
I hope you understand why there is no acceptable JVM for PalmOS, and why there is no JVM that ships with all Palms out of the box: it's the last thing Palm wants.
Palm sees their business in controling a proprietary software platform and tying developers too it. It doesn't matter how good or bad the platform is technically or whether there are alternatives or whether they are alternatives that developers might prefer: Palm has a large chunk of the market, and the only way you are going to develop for it is if you commit your heart, soul, and money to developing for their proprietary platform.
That's also why PalmOS 6 is proprietary and incompatible with the rest of the world: there is no technical reason, it's just because that's what Palm does for a living.
Re: Java purposefuly unavailable on Palm
I had already reached the same conclusion - kind of. Though I'm also increasingly convinced that the OS just isn't capable of supporting a "real" JVM. Perhaps it could be done, but would be too much of an effort.
However, you mention OS 6 is "incompatible with anything else". Isn't that the common happening with every OS?
I would not ask for compatibility with other OSes (well, Java would be perfect for that :P); that would be nice for sure, but I have never seen that before. But from the little I know, I would ask for APIs that don't make too difficult to make a Palm OS version of existing code.
Some FFFFriend here mentioned that programming for Palm OS was "so easy" compared to other platforms. I asked for some example... pity he never answered. It would have been interesting.
patented and proprietary
thereby ensuring that manufacturers will not make compatible technology, or if so, only at a much higher price. As a result, users will likely get stuck with a bunch of proprietary parts that implement functionality that could be implemented more efficiently anyway in dedicated cards.
This technology is largely there for the convenience of the manufacturer.
And what's the market anyway? People don't upgrade Palms (way too much hassle and sacrifices the SD slot), they just buy new ones. Give it a year or two, and most new handhelds will have BT, WiFi, and GPS built in.
Finally! An intelligent comment here at Palminfocenter.
I agree with you about Bluetooth and 802.11b, but as far as I know Garmin is the only manufacturer including GPS. (Their new (non-Palm) GPSmap 60CS is amazing by the way.)
RE: patented and proprietary
I think GPS in handhelds will become a standard feature as GPS in phones will drive prices down for the GPS chipsets dramatically, and that's happening because of the e911 mandates.
Until then, once you have Bluetooth, the Bluetooth GPS modules are probably still preferable to having something stick out of the SD slot.
No Useless
GPRS through the phone is very expensive per KB and you don't get coverage everywhere. While I could buy a PDA with wifi, I wouldn't have the phone and GPRS that I also like in the same device, and I don't want to carry 2 devices.
The whole reason I ended up at this site was looking for a wifi SDIO card.
*Camera... I don't see this being real useful.
*Bluetooth could be useful, but not real practical for st bluetooth applications.
*Modem... Not 100% useless, but it's rare I'd use that.
*GPS is cool, but you need memory for GPS maps. Since it takes up the memory slot...well what's the point? Go get a GPS devices for the same $$$.
*Barcode? Sounds good to me.
The perfect device...to me... would be a Treo 600 with Wifi built in. Bluetooth a bonus but that's secondary to me.
-Taylor
patented - so the problem is?
I'm sorry, but I don't get your post.
thereby ensuring that manufacturers will not make compatible technology, or if so, only at a much higher price.
Well, I think that's the nature of patents: you invent something, you patent it so others won't be able to take profit of your invention - without some licensing. (is "licensing" the correct word here?)
But, no, I guess it should not be necessarily "at a much higher price".
I guess the patent owners will want to license the patent at an interesting price. If a prospective licensee finds that using the patent will cost them more than developing their device from scratch, they surely won't want to follow that way - so both manufacturers loose. (one has one way less to develop the product; the other has lost a chance for revenue)
If the technology and the price are interesting enough, the product will be developed sooner and cheaper than from scratch - and both manufacturers win. (and we win, ultimately)
So: where's the problem?
I can only envision a problem if Pretec had discovered the only way to do something vital and wanted to block the rest of the industry... do you think that this is the case here?
Of course, there's also the possibility of this being another case of misguided patents for something so trivial that could endanger the whole industry... but I thought that was only happening with software? :P I certainly don't see anything hinting that here. Do you?
Clearly, I Am Not A Lawyer.
As a result, users will likely get stuck with a bunch of proprietary parts that implement functionality that could be implemented more efficiently anyway in dedicated cards.
If the functionality can be implemented more efficiently anyway in dedicated cards, who stops other people from doing so? (and you from buying from them)
However, from what the article says, this allows for other type of efficiency: one device design, 4 formats. That should help to take developing times, costs, and final prices down. Don't you think that's interesting?
This technology is largely there for the convenience of the manufacturer.
Isn't that capitalism? :P
Looks like you mean that there are manufacturers whose technology is there for the convenience of..... who, Humanity? Please elaborate.
And what's the market anyway? People don't upgrade Palms (way too much hassle and sacrifices the SD slot), they just buy new ones. Give it a year or two, and most new handhelds will have BT, WiFi, and GPS built in.
Hey... déjà vu! :D
RE: SDIO is vaporware
Uh huh. Well, you're right, I don't like it one bit. Because I was going to buy an SD modem (oh, and so was my brother for his T|E when i told him about it), but now I can't. Because (and I quote) "no one's going to buy SDIO peripherals." Since no one is going to buy them, I guess that includes me, and I was so looking forward to it. I guess I will run right out and purchase the first Palm that comes out with all the features I want, because I don't want to be able to expand my current T|T with SDIO that has served me so well. Nope, it's got to go in the trash. Hey, maybe Palm will come out with a model that's got built-in WiFi, Bluetooth, a camera, a phone, dual CF slots, dual SD slots, 40GB of memory, a battery that lasts ten years on a single charge, a toothbrush, and a can opener. All in the size and thickness of a credit card.
But of course you already KNOW this is going to happen, what with your ability to see into the future.
RE: SDIO is vaporware
(I mean: you're dead right, Nusm ;). Now, if only FFFF could understand that...*sigh*)
Are Developers Listening???
Seems to me with the complaints of: Battery life, Mini USB-no serial, BT drain, Slider, Graffiti area, no flash and other photo probs, OS probs Etc. Etc. You'd think they would take the best of all worlds and put together a PDA that would lead the market with customer satisfaction. These are scientists, computer and marketing experts. C'MON GUYS...If we nominal patrons can see the mistakes and post reviews like this, why can't you see it in the developement stage and do it right the first time?
Developers ???
I don't understand this. Palm One has this forum, on they're own web site. Doesn't any of the developers read the "constructive critisim" posted here?
Seems to me with the complaints of: Battery life, Mini USB-no serial, BT drain, Slider, Graffiti area, no flash and other photo probs Etc. Etc. You'd think they would take the best of all worlds and put together a PDA that would lead the market with customer satisfaction. These are scientists, computer and marketing experts. C'MON GUYS...If we nominal patrons can see the mistakes and post reviews like this, why can't you see it in the developement stage and do it right the first time?
Latest Comments
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Wow!
Anyone want to predict how much time will PalmOS WiFi drivers be postponed?