Comments on: Treo 700w Getting Push Email Update

Palm has just announced a software update for the Treo 700w smartphone that will enable the Windows Mobile Messaging and Security Feature Pack (MSFP), which includes Direct Push Technology. The free update, which is expected to be available later this month, gives Treo 700w smartphone users automatic wireless updates of their email, calendar items, contacts and tasks, allowing IT managers to deliver this information directly from Exchange Server 2003 SP2 without incurring additional third-party infrastructure costs.
Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (74 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Start a new Comment Down

Where is BB for Treo 650??

Tamog @ 4/6/2006 1:54:43 PM # Q
Hi,
first post, lets try to get it meaningful..

WHERE IS THE FREAKING BLACKBERRY APP FOR OS5? It runs, we all know it, but why tha heck doesnt Palm go ahead and releases it?

I talked to a rep of the austrian T-Mobile carrier, and he said that one of the main reasons they dont run Treos is the lack of BlackBerry support. Face it, everyone loves Blackberry(most of them ,anyways)...

Best regards
Tam Hanna

Find out more about the Palm OS in my blog:
http://tamspalm.tamoggemon.com

RE: Where is BB for Treo 650??
Ryan @ 4/6/2006 1:56:57 PM # Q
BB Connect for Palm OS is still in that mythological place called "in carrier testing"

It is finished, but just waiting for the wireless carriers to finally approve and deploy it.

Reply to this comment

Already available for Palm OS smartphones

cervezas @ 4/6/2006 2:40:18 PM # Q
Microsoft is behind the ball with this long-awaited update.

Funambol (http://www.funambol.com) has delivered free push email and OTA PIM sync for Palm OS smartphones since the beginning of February. Only with Funambol you also get remote device management capabilities. An admin who can update your applications or perform other system management tasks (like disabling the device and clearing the data in the event it's stolen or lost).

Fortunately, if Microsoft's belated solution isn't complete enough for the 700w fleet in your company, Funambol should work with those, too. :-p

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Already available for Palm OS smartphones
AdamaDBrown @ 4/6/2006 5:06:49 PM # Q
FYI, the update was "released" last November or December (can't remember which), but most manufacturers have been rather slow to pick it up. Yet another reason to move towards manufacturer-independent upgrade. 700w users should simply be glad it didn't get stuck on the same shelf as the Blackberry client.

RE: Already available for Palm OS smartphones
drw @ 4/6/2006 9:02:52 PM # Q
yea, but it applies to exchange server clients. What if your mail server is yahoo?

---
David
RE: Already available for Palm OS smartphones
neuron @ 4/6/2006 9:20:30 PM # Q
Yahoo is a pop3 server, so there is no way to push without automatically forwarding to a push account.

Reply to this comment

Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.

VampireLestat @ 4/7/2006 1:31:04 AM # Q
You know what? Pocket PC users have tons of sites for Windowzzz devices. I would greatly appreciate it if PIC would stick to Palm OS stories. They do whatever the hell they want, but it just rubs me the wrong way everytime I see that Treo 700W stories.

Is the site Palm Inc related or Palm OS community related?

Why not start, PocketInfocenter.com so we can ignore it?



RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
VampireLestat @ 4/7/2006 1:36:04 AM # Q
And I feel that every bit of Treo 700w exposure on this site hurts the Palm OS community.

Bit by bit by bit...

RE: Leenuxx Tree-Os.
Surur @ 4/7/2006 2:12:54 AM # Q

And what will you say when the Linux Treo comes out?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/7/2006 2:56:21 AM # Q
And I feel that every bit of Treo 700w exposure on this site hurts the Palm OS community.

Isn't that overstating things a bit?

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
Surur @ 4/7/2006 5:22:35 AM # Q

He's quite right. The main message, despite all the spin Palm is putting on it, is that Windows Mobile is good enough for Palm, and should be good enough for anyone. If you accept that message, suddenly the whole constellation of WM devices becomes available to you, and it makes it that much harder to justify staying with PalmOS.

Basically by Palm using POS is a WM anti-FUD campaign, and being exposed to the truth weakens POS.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
cervezas @ 4/7/2006 11:08:07 AM # Q
I can't see how discussion on PIC about the 700w could be damaging to the Palm OS. For one thing, the general consensus even outside this forum is that the 700w is a step down from the 650 in most respects--not a flop, by any means, but certainly not a big improvement. Also, the fact that we're only now seeing this Microsoft update for the 700w while more powerful and flexible solutions have been available for free on Palm OS since almost the beginning of the year doesn't exactly reflect well on Microsoft, does it? It's emblematic of the trouble they have keeping pace with smaller, more agile companies.

Not that Palm itself has been very agile, mind you, but at least they have a business model that fosters an ecosystem of great solution-providers like Funambol.

My bit of Palm OS boosterism for the day. ;-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
hkklife @ 4/7/2006 11:19:28 AM # Q
A wise man not named Gordon Gekko but equally ruthless once said "Know thy enemy"

I am not speaking for Ryan/PIC but I think that's the site's general stance on WinMob-related news & products from *PALM*.

"PALM" is a catch all term for one (well, currently two companies in theory but that's going to change soon) company, an OS, a brand and a general segment of the mobile marketplace.

PALM the company does offer one (and counting) WinMob device so Ryan feels that coverage of Palm the company's products is justified by the PALMinfocenter site.

However, keeping tabs on the 700w & Palm's support for it does not mean that we are going to see a slew of PPC software reviews & articles on PIC. Anything but...we're trying to keep PIC fresh & constantly updated with info & reviews of POS software & hardware whenever possible.

PIC is 99% Palm news & reviews with the occasional blurb about the 700w *ONLY* because it's a product offerd by Palm Inc. Other sites like Brighthand PDABuzz etc. offer maybe 90% WinMob coverage and just the token Palm OS announcement or review.

If you are unhappy with the direction of PIC then please go/post elsewhere. This is Ryan's site through and through and he makes no bones about it. If you want to do your part to enhance the Palm OS coverage on the site then by all means chime in. Guest contributions & reviews are always appreciated and can be submitted at any time.

I currently have *ZERO* interest in abandoning POS unless it no longer becomes a viable option for me. Yet I still keep the (very) occasional eye on news & devices from RIM, Dell, HP, Nokia and other players just because I don't want to keep my head in the sand completely. BTW I'm still trying to figure out why the usually harsh Engadget called the Nokia 770 the handheld of the year when Mike Cane & CNET call it the year's biggest mobile flop.

I doubt the occasional 700w item in moderation will hurt PIC or its readership. If and when Palm starts to field a wider variety of WinMob devices perhaps he can add a self contained section to the site specifially for "Palm Inc's WinMob Treos"

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
Ryan @ 4/7/2006 11:34:20 AM # Q
You guys do bring up a good point. It has been a dilemma for me since the announcement of how I was going to approach covering the w. My thoughts are that I want to keep PIC a Palm OS focused site and that is my intention going forward.

However, it is good to keep up to date on all that Palm Inc is doing, even if it is related to windows mobile. If anything the 700w brings smartphones to customers that Palm previously could not reach, and once they compare the Palm OS and WinMob Treo's I'm pretty sure the best device will win out in the long run... maybe even one day we could see a treo that dual boots operating systems, boot camp for smartphones!

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
cervezas @ 4/7/2006 12:09:46 PM # Q
maybe even one day we could see a treo that dual boots operating systems, boot camp for smartphones!

I got to see one at the DevCon last year: dual-boot Palm OS Cobalt and Windows CE.NET. Not a Treo, though. You can still see that pretty little phone with the Cobalt application launcher prominently displayed on Oswin's web site: http://www.oswintech.com/services.htm What teases they are: they used to only show pictures of it running WinCE.NET.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
Surur @ 4/7/2006 12:52:29 PM # Q

Its funny, the Apple situation is very similar.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
slinky @ 4/7/2006 2:22:19 PM # Q
The 700w is yet another black mark on Palm's name in a suspect product line since the 600. It's got tons of bugs, some of them pretty serious and the latest which I'm sure Verizon is loving (doesn't automatically hang up when one caller hangs up on call waiting calls, owner gets charged for both calls until he hangs up on both.) The 32MB RAM thing yet again. Wow. Who would have thought Palm would be that stupid and create a phone that some love but create more customer support calls than the other PDAs combined... the 700p will be underpowered but will probably be far more usable than the 700w...

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
hkklife @ 4/7/2006 3:24:07 PM # Q
700p is underpowered compared to the 700w?

More "usable" RAM and a higher resolution screen are definite improvements over the "dubya".

The 700p also has the potential for better battery life and fewer bugs (as impossible as it sounds), especially with all of that lovely heap memory.

About the only major omission I forsee on the 700p is Palm intentionally *NOT* releasing wi-fi SDIO drivers for the P in order to give the W some measure of exclusivity. Well, that and not being available on any carriers other than Sprint.

On top of all that you have the usability factor.

So, yeah, considering the better usability over the 700w, better screen resolution over the 700w, and more RAM than the 650, the 700P is still the lesser of all smartphone evils.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/7/2006 4:31:23 PM # Q
in a suspect product line since the 600.

Huh? I'd have thought that almost anyone would agree that the Treos have improved greatly since the 600. The switch to HTC for manufacturing, resulting in the drastic drop in hardware defects from the 600 to 650; the improvements in the display and memory (even with some of the dubious qualities of NVFS); and the wider array of available add-ons.

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
hkklife @ 4/7/2006 5:22:03 PM # Q
"suspect product line"?

(I missed it upon my initial read)

Regardless of the DUBIOUS build quality & benefits of NVFS, mediocre features/specs, and middlin' audio quality, there's no doubting that Palm would be GONE today if it were not for the Treo line...specifically the 650.

I'd like to see somewhere, maybe on the Slam blog, a breakdown of units sold through to carriers and/or as unlocked direct sales, divided up between "All pre-600 Treos by HS" "All Handspring & Palm 600s" and "All Treo 650s" to-date.

I wonder if the 600 or the 650 is ultimately the more successful of the two...I'd definitely claim the 600 had higher margins than the 650 due to the switch early on from the almost passable CSTN screen HS used to the really washed out CSTN Palm switched to.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Windozzzzzz Tree-Os.
slinky @ 4/7/2006 11:28:39 PM # Q
32MB of RAM... 4 years later. Unfortunately with the 700w Palm is the latest underpowered piece of equipment and Verizon is dealing with the calls... The Treo 650 was timely in the sense that Palm still had created a superior form factor and case and figured they could make one last go and suck up as much consumer money and provide less. But the hardware gap has narrowed considerably and what once was a unique item -- Palm with its Palm OS -- is now becoming one of the many offerings. If I didn't get a free "upgrade" to the 700w I wouldn't have bothered. Lots more coming down the pipe that makes it the crippled joke that it is unfortunately - even more than the 650. The Motorola Q has a lot of people excited, even as a Smartphone. There are many others in the works and the competition is heating up... love it. If PPCTechs ever get that fix to work.. wow... that would be beautiful, both to have my device work as it should (sans wifi) and it would really stick it to Palm...

Until the announcement is officially made, there is no 700p. It seems like people didn't learn their lesson from last time, lol.

Reply to this comment

Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2006 2:42:19 PM # Q
Slamblog recently posted a reasonably-accurate summary of cumulative Treo sales:

http://www.slamblog.com/2006/03/all_time_treo_s.html#more

March 31, 2006
All Time Treo Sales
This post keeps track of the all time Treo Sales. These numbers start with the Treo 600 and includes the Treo 650 and Treo 700w. The data below includes some estimates and actual data given by Palm, Inc. from its quarterly earnings reports and various company presentations. This post is updated as of March 31, 2006.

Fiscal Quarter Calendar Quarter Sell In Sell Thru Channel Fill Total Channel Inventory
Q204 November-03 100,000 70,000 30,000 30,000
Q304 February-04 137,000 115,000 22,000 52,000
Q404 May-04 151,000 126,000 25,000 77,000
Q105 August-04 273,000 179,000 94,000 171,000
Q205 November-04 340,000 190,000 150,000 321,000
Q305 February-05 280,000 282,000 (2,000) 319,000
Q405 May-05 395,000 442,000 (47,000) 272,000
Q106 August-05 491,000 470,000 21,000 293,000
Q206 November-05 602,000 435,000 167,000 460,000
Q306 February-06 564,000 569,000 (5,000) 455,000

Total 3,333,000 2,878,000


More explanation of this information after the jump:

The Sell-in numbers are the number of Treo units that Palm has sold to its channel partners. The carriers are the primary partners but Palm also sells about 10-12% of its phones into the general distribution channel in the US. The above numbers are not broken out by Treo version or by geography.

The Sell-Thru number is the number of Treo's sold to end user customers. Palm has reporting agreements with its customers (carriers and distributors) that enable it to track that amount of Treos selling to end user customers. Palm has focused on this metric to determine the success of its sales efforts for the Treo. Palm has stated that this information is relatively accurate at near real time.

The cumulative difference between the Sell-in and Sell Thru represents the current amount of Treos assumed to be in channel inventory.

Note: Palm periodically reports on total Treos sold. These reports allow us to refine our estimates and adjust the accuracy of our information. When Palm reports the total number of all Treos shipped they also include versions prior to the Treo 600. Total shipments of previous Treos are assumed to be around 250,000 to 300,000. Since this blog began commenting on Palm with the release of the Treo 600, we generally do not include that data.

Some general notes:

Q204 - The Treo 600 first shipped
Q304 - Palm was backorderded on screen parts for Treos during this Quarter
Q205 - Estimate of 20,000 "Sell-in" are Treo 650, Product transistion (600 to 650)
Q305 - Estimate of 180,000 "Sell-in" are Treo 650
Q206 - Possibly a few Treo 700W but most likely all Treo 650
Q306 - Fresh estimate (to be revised) of 200,000 Treo 700w shipped, possibly more.


***************************************************************************

A couple of suggestions for Ryan:

- You might want to ask at Slamblog if he would let you post his article at Palminfocenter.

- Please don't let Palminfocenter get PalmStationed. The comments here have nosedived recently and besides the discussion over Beersy's loose lips chatter about Palm's in-house Linux plans, the posts here are eerily starting to resemble the drivel at Brighthand, 1src, etc.

- Creating "contests" designed to get people to register and post more isn't going to work. As with your previous attempt, all we'll see is a few sleazy twits registering under a dozen "new" Palminfocenter UserNames to SPAM the contest thread, never to be heard of again once the contest is over.

- As you may now be aware, traditional PalmOS PDAs are almost extinct, and PalmOS has been effectively killed off by Access. (Access is about as relevant to our interests here as Symbian would be - despite the endless whimperings of PalmSource manager David Schlesinger to the contrary.) Palm is about to throw more of its resources behind Windows Mobile as it scrambles to survive the onslaught of superior hardware that will be available from most of Palm's competitors. Palminfocenter needs to decide if it will evolve to also become a Windows Mobile site or if it will be PalmOS-only/PamOS-mainly. As much as I'd like to see Palminfocenter become the site where PalmOS users make their last stand, I'm not sure if you're prepared to do what it takes to achieve this goal. I've previously made several suggestions on how you may continue to develop Palminfocenter, but I fear your current strategy will result in an inexorable decline into oblivion.


TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Surur @ 4/8/2006 3:38:51 PM # Q
I wish he quoted his source for the 200 000 Treo 700w sales. I actually find that hard to believe, but if true its rather amazing. It actually goes against my perception that POS users are very tied to their OS, as a large number must have switched. Notice that total sales are not up hugely, which indicated to me that its not all new customers, but a large part cannibalization.

(Actually I just noticed that the 200 000 is shipments, not sell through. They may just be forming part of the 455 000 thats sitting in inventory).

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2006 5:31:10 PM # Q
I wish he quoted his source for the 200 000 Treo 700w sales. I actually find that hard to believe, but if true its rather amazing. It actually goes against my perception that POS users are very tied to their OS, as a large number must have switched. Notice that total sales are not up hugely, which indicated to me that its not all new customers, but a large part cannibalization.

(Actually I just noticed that the 200 000 is shipments, not sell through. They may just be forming part of the 455 000 thats sitting in inventory).

Surur

Remember that the Treo 700w was only released in the past quarter (January, 2006) and that Treo sales growth will likely come from sales to businesses rather than end users. The unified solution of Microsoft Exchange Server + Windows Mobile devices for "free" push email is a LOT more appealing than the amateurish, cobbled-together, roll-your-own solutions offered by various independent companies and hobbyist hackers that Beersy keeps ranting about. Palm dropped the ball - big time - when they failed to integrate Seven or Good Technology with their email client to offer a "free" turn-key, out-of-box push email solution for the Treo 600 in 2003. Had Palm delivered the goods, they would have had a 2 year lead with which they could have tried to push PalmOS as a solid rival to Blackberry for corporate customers. Palm's internal confusion and angst also lead to the comedy of errors known as the FUBARed introduction of the PalmOS Blackberry client software.

I believe a lot of Treo sales have been to former owners of standalone PalmOS PDA that were discouraged by the lack of compelling traditional PalmOS PDAs on the market. I predict these upgraders will be less inclined to buy new hardware at the fast rate that they did when they were upgrading their standalone PDAs. Cannibalizing traditional PDA sales by selling smartphones to a (formerly) captive market amounts to sacificing the future to make current numbers look good. [Of course, if the Treo 700w becomes a smash hit with corporate customers, the fate of Palm's PalmOS devices is academic.] It all comes down to whether or not Palm's product mix has what it takes to GROW their market. Based on what the competition has announced for 2006, Palm's future looks bleak. Incremental upgrades that take 2 years to release won't cut it if Palm intends to be a player in the mobile handset world in the same league as heavyweights like Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, Motorola, etc.

I think most people now realize that Palm has (eagerly) become both the carriers' biotch and Bill Gates' biotch. Sorry, Melinda but Colligan swallows. (Am I the only one who saw Gates smirking at the Treo 700w press conference in S.F. while he made Ed Colligan act like a puppy/biotch anxious to do new tricks for his master/pimp? Bending over to please the carriers is a change that will probably come back to bite Palm in the a$$. As we saw with Sprint's asinine decision to not carry the Samsung 1550, Palm's success now depends more on satisfying the whims of carriers than it does on making end users happy. Verizon and Sprint customers know all too well how annoying it is dealing with hardware that has been crippled to meet the demands of carriers. This does not bode well for the future creativity of what was once a vibrant platform.


TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2006 5:40:23 PM # Q
I wish he quoted his source for the 200 000 Treo 700w sales. I actually find that hard to believe, but if true its rather amazing. It actually goes against my perception that POS users are very tied to their OS, as a large number must have switched. Notice that total sales are not up hugely, which indicated to me that its not all new customers, but a large part cannibalization.

(Actually I just noticed that the 200 000 is shipments, not sell through. They may just be forming part of the 455 000 thats sitting in inventory).

Surur

Remember that the Treo 700w was only released in the past quarter (January, 2006) and that Treo sales growth will likely come from sales to businesses rather than end users. The unified solution of Microsoft Exchange Server + Windows Mobile devices for "free" push email is a LOT more appealing than the amateurish, cobbled-together, roll-your-own solutions offered by various independent companies and hobbyist hackers that Beersy keeps ranting about. Palm dropped the ball - big time - when they failed to integrate Seven or Good Technology with their email client to offer a "free" turn-key, out-of-box push email solution for the Treo 600 in 2003. Had Palm delivered the goods, they would have had a 2 year lead with which they could have tried to push PalmOS as a solid rival to Blackberry for corporate customers. Palm's internal confusion and angst also lead to the comedy of errors known as the FUBARed introduction of the PalmOS Blackberry client software.

I believe a lot of Treo sales have been to former owners of standalone PalmOS PDA that were discouraged by the lack of compelling traditional PalmOS PDAs on the market. I predict these upgraders will be less inclined to buy new hardware at the fast rate that they did when they were upgrading their standalone PDAs. Cannibalizing traditional PDA sales by selling smartphones to a (formerly) captive market amounts to sacificing the future to make current numbers look good. [Of course, if the Treo 700w becomes a smash hit with corporate customers, the fate of Palm's PalmOS devices is academic.] It all comes down to whether or not Palm's product mix has what it takes to GROW their market. Based on what the competition has announced for 2006, Palm's future looks bleak. Incremental upgrades that take 2 years to release won't cut it if Palm intends to be a player in the mobile handset world in the same league as heavyweights like Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, Motorola, etc.

I think most people now realize that Palm has (eagerly) become both the carriers' biotch and Bill Gates' biotch. Sorry, Melinda but Colligan swallows. (Am I the only one who saw Gates smirking at the Treo 700w press conference in S.F. while he made Ed Colligan act like a puppy/biotch anxious to do new tricks for his master/pimp?) Bending over to please the carriers is a change that will probably come back to bite Palm in the a$$. As we saw with Sprint's asinine decision to not carry the Samsung i550, Palm's success now depends more on satisfying the whims of carriers than it does on making end users happy. Verizon and Sprint customers know all too well how annoying it is dealing with hardware that has been crippled to meet the demands of carriers. This does not bode well for the future creativity of what was once a vibrant platform.


TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/8/2006 6:40:05 PM # Q
The unified solution of Microsoft Exchange Server + Windows Mobile devices for "free" push email is a LOT more appealing than the amateurish, cobbled-together, roll-your-own solutions offered by various independent companies and hobbyist hackers that Beersy keeps ranting about.

Wow, so you've bought yourself a 700w, got an advance copy of the update, and had a chance to compare Microsoft's push email with Funambol. You really should write a review because you'd certainly be the first.

As for Funambol being "hobbyist hackers," you might be interested to know they got $10M in first round VC last year and had their technology licensed by Computer Associates for use within CA's enterprise device management products. What have you done lately?

I agree that from a marketing standpoint it might be hard to beat the Microsoft machine. It's just that it's a little embarrassing when a giant like Microsoft gets shown up by a bunch of "hobbyist hackers" delivering a product with twice the features.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy: Get a clue.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2006 7:00:30 PM # Q
Wow, so you've bought yourself a 700w, got an advance copy of the update, and had a chance to compare Microsoft's push email with Funambol. You really should write a review because you'd certainly be the first.

As for Funambol being "hobbyist hackers," you might be interested to know they got $10M in first round VC last year and had their technology licensed by Computer Associates for use within CA's enterprise device management products. What have you done lately?

I agree that from a marketing standpoint it might be hard to beat the Microsoft machine. It's just that it's a little embarrassing when a giant like Microsoft gets shown up by a bunch of "hobbyist hackers" delivering a product with twice the features.


Beersy, what dumba$$ geeks like you fail to understand is that products succeed because of marketing more than they do because of any (arguable) perceived technical merit. How long has Good Technology been offering push email for Treos? How are their sales compared to Blackberry? Anyone who thinks Good Technology will survive much longer please raise your hand [no one moves...].


When Bubba Joe - lead monkey in IT - is told by the CEO "I want push email for Treos" do you think he's going to put his neck on the line by recommending your geeky little Funambol "solution" (that's probably provided by some teenage whiz kid hacker in Moscow that could disappear after next weekend's rave, never to be heard from again), or is Bubba Joe going to recommend that familiar, SAFE "Windows" solution? Add in "FREE" to the equation along with the uncertainties swirling around the future of PalmOS and suddenly it's a rout for Microsoft. As long as Microsoft doesn't completely botch its push email package its hard to see how they won't quickly become the defacto standard. RIM must be pi$$ing their pants as they wait to see if Microsoft will ship without any showstopping bugs.

Keep dreaming, Beersy. Your innocence is touching. I hope Gates doesn't party on your a$$ TOO hard before your company goes bankrupt.

TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/8/2006 10:29:31 PM # Q
Gee, our little friend, The Vat of Refuse seems to be really exited by these numbers. (Amazing, for someone who is financially innumerate.)

Let's all hope, like she does, that Palm will drop Palm OS forever, so that she can achieve nirvana at last.

Ryan, please don't let PIC become 'palmstationed' by allowing trolls to run riot with offensive posts (as happended over at palmstation.com all those years ago). Also, please keep up the competitions and software reviews - the more new members you can bring here the better for the PIC community.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
hkklife @ 4/8/2006 10:53:18 PM # Q
Simony;

if you like the reviews you'll be pleased to know I have one in the can to be published in the next day or so and another two in the works for later in the week.

I'm primarily reviewing games & entertainment titles for the time being but will do the occasional non-game app and hardware/accessory review should the occasion arise.

Again, anyone who feels the need can gladly submit a guest review to Ryan. More content keeps PIC fresh and more of an actual resource for Palm owners.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/8/2006 10:58:16 PM # Q
Thanks, hkklife, your reviews are always interesting. If I had a vote, I'd like to see a review of the Madden football game (although I believe you said once that you don't go for that type of game).

Personally, I only have two games on my palmpilot - ChessGenius & Giraffe. The latter was a real life-saver - I played a game a day for about a week, when I was making the transition from G1 to G2. It really helped a lot. I still fire it up every once in a while when I need to brush up on my G2 punctuation and special characters. With the help of Giraffe, I think I am now nearly as proficient with G2 as I ever was with G1.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
SeldomVisitor @ 4/9/2006 8:58:47 AM # Q
The sell-through numbers for the most recent quarter were accompanied by big huge warnings that they were (paraphrased) "only as good as the entities reporting them".

That was an unusual thing for PALM to do.

The cynical out here might suggest PALM itself had little faith in them relative to the past.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/9/2006 10:59:38 AM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Beersy, what dumba$$ geeks like you fail to understand is that products succeed because of marketing more than they do because of any (arguable) perceived technical merit.

I see. So that explains why you criticized the alternatives to Microsoft on the basis of their "amateurish, cobbled-together" technical merit and I pointed out that "from a marketing standpoint it might be hard to beat the Microsoft machine." It's all coming clear to me which of us is the dumba$$.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 11:36:19 AM # Q
I see. So that explains why you criticized the alternatives to Microsoft on the basis of their "amateurish, cobbled-together"...

Beersy, any solution that is not a turkey solution from a single provider is "cobbled together". And sorry to hurt your feelings, but several of the homemade, garage-coded "push" email solutions for PalmOS are by definition amateurish compared to a Microsoft-sponsored solution that integrates seamlessly with Microsoft Exchange.

and I pointed out that "from a marketing standpoint it might be hard to beat the Microsoft machine."

Very good. Perhaps there's hope for you yet.

It's all coming clear to me which of us is the dumba$$.

Finally. Excellent. Go to the dumba$$. He's waiting for you in the mirror. Run.

Beersy, it's time for you to get back to licking the boots of PalmSource employees and begging Marty "Loose Lips" Fouts for even more dirt on the disgraced PalmSource.

Take care, little buddy.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/9/2006 12:12:09 PM # Q
any solution that is not a turkey solution from a single provider is "cobbled together".

Perhaps, but getting back to the point which you are now back-tracking from, it's not this that will account for Microsoft push being dominant, it's Microsoft's marketing muscle. Muscle that Palm does not suddenly have simply by licensing Good's solution and including it in ROM.

Fortunately for Funambol (and Palm) their product doesn't have to "dominate" to be profitable. Some companies need more than just email pushed. Some are smart enough to realize that TCO has more to do with long-term maintainance and administration of a mobile deployment than the time it takes to install the software. Can Microsoft's solution push backend SQL Server data changes out to custom software running on the mobile clients? Can it update the software on the device to a new version? Can it push out firmware updates? Can an admin remotely delete sensitive data on a lost device with Microsoft push? No. So a company that needs these features will have to deploy a 3rd party solution anyway. Microsoft isn't innovating fast enough to dispense with 3rd party software "cobbling" so the issue is irrelevant in many cases.

And sorry to hurt your feelings, but several of the homemade, garage-coded "push" email solutions for PalmOS are by definition amateurish compared to a Microsoft-sponsored solution that integrates seamlessly with Microsoft Exchange.

You're changing the subject. I was talking about Funambol.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 12:55:39 PM # Q
Perhaps, but getting back to the point which you are now back-tracking from, it's not this that will account for Microsoft push being dominant, it's Microsoft's marketing muscle. Muscle that Palm does not suddenly have simply by licensing Good's solution and including it in ROM.

Having not used Microsoft's push email solution I can't comment on how good it is. The only "back-tracking" going on is when the lumberjacks party on your a$$ in the woods, Beersy. Microsoft could very well have the best technology, but the bottom line is that Microsoft does need the best technology to win. Your irrational hatred of Microsoft has blinded you to the possibility that they have the ability to produce code as good as - if not better than - the underdog companies you champion. Microsoft haters/Apple Cultists/Linux Fanboys like you are a tiresome bore.

Had Palm simply made Good Technology's solution a standard component of their devices 3 years ago they may have been able to achieve the critical mass of users needed to withstand the onslaught of Blackberry and Microsoft. Now it's too late for Palm to try to compete.

Fortunately for Funambol (and Palm) their product doesn't have to "dominate" to be profitable. Some companies need more than just email pushed. Some are smart enough to realize that TCO has more to do with long-term maintainance and administration of a mobile deployment than the time it takes to install the software. Can Microsoft's solution push backend SQL Server data changes out to custom software running on the mobile clients? Can it update the software on the device to a new version? Can it push out firmware updates? Can an admin remotely delete sensitive data on a lost device with Microsoft push? No. So a company that needs these features will have to deploy a 3rd party solution anyway. Microsoft isn't innovating fast enough to dispense with 3rd party software "cobbling" so the issue is irrelevant in many cases.

Are you sure that Microsoft won't be able accomplish any of the things you mentioned? Do you really believe remote deletion of devices won't be part of Microsoft's package? Or are you spreading your usual anti-Microsoft FUD? And what percent of companies do you think will be willing to actually PAY for features beyond what Microsoft offers? 25%? 10%? 5%? 1%? 0.0001%? The competition will be fighting over the tiny scraps that fall from Microsoft's + RIM's table. Not a good business model. Dreamers like you fail to understand that despite being able to attract VC from delusional investors, without a realistic business model that takes into account the harsh realities of competition from the bigger dogs, even companies with decent products fail. See Tapwave, AlphaSmart and HandEra for examples to help edumacate you, Bubba.

>>>And sorry to hurt your feelings, but several of the homemade, garage-coded "push" email solutions for PalmOS are by definition amateurish compared to a Microsoft-sponsored solution that integrates seamlessly with Microsoft Exchange.

You're changing the subject. I was talking about Funambol.

Who cares? Good Technology and Seven have been touted as the next big thing for YEARS and where are they today? Will Good even still be in business next year? Keep dreaming, Beersy. Microsoft wins again:

- Desktop OS
- Word processor
- Email app
- PIM app
- Spreadsheet
- Presentation app
- Project planner
- Mobile OS
- Internet browser
- Database app
- Financial planning app (tie with Quicken)
- etc., etc.

Resistance is futile. Join The Collective. We are The Borg.


TVoR


P.S. If you're going to keep trying to debate here I would suggest you get help. It's almost painful seeing you get your a$$ kicked daily.

Looks like Beersy is full of sh!t (as usual)...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 1:58:57 PM # Q
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/business/5/default.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/exchange/2003/sp2mobility.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/evaluation/bettertogether/bt_mobile.mspx


"Remote Wipe
Remote wipe is a new feature added in SP2 that enables administrators and help desk professionals to erase sensitive data from a lost or stolen mobile device. After the remote wipe has been completed, the administrator will receive acknowledgement that device has been wiped.

This feature is enabled via a Web application that is restricted to Exchange Administrators by default. Other individuals can be added as necessary. This delegation model is useful in that it allows administrators to delegate the remote wipe operation to the help desk, thus reducing the elapsed time and operational costs."

Ooops!

Keep it coming, Beersy. You're a source of endless amusement for us all, much as Bozo The Clown was "back in the day".

Take care.

TVoR


RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/9/2006 2:24:25 PM # Q
^ Gekko's immortal phrase 'you're a hack and shill' comes to mind, doesn't it?

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/9/2006 2:57:09 PM # Q
Can an admin remotely delete sensitive data on a lost device with Microsoft push?

Actually, the answer to that is yes. The MSFP includes the ability to remote wipe lost devices. I'm not sure about the other things you listed.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/9/2006 3:03:43 PM # Q
Whoops--replied before I saw TVOR's addition.

To all the dumba$$ Palm Apologists (you know who you are):
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 6:20:31 PM # Q
Gekko's immortal phrase 'you're a hack and shill' comes to mind, doesn't it?

Since the arrow in your previous post was pointing to YOUR name, I would have to agree. You and Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin are two of the most pathetic hacks/shills posting to PDA sites these days. Pity you both lack the intelligence to be capable of formulating cogent arguments to support your (flimsy) positions.

I've tried to be nice to you in the past because it was evident that you didn't have the mental abilities to debate here, Simony. Don't force me to stop playing Ms. Nice Girl... Remember what happened to Jeff Kirvin? It wasn't pretty.


TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/9/2006 7:01:09 PM # Q
^ The Propagandist Strikes Back - you saw the movie now read the drivel.

Pretty though, coming from someone whose strings are pulled by Mr Hansberry.



RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/9/2006 7:10:50 PM # Q
PS. If you want to take the gloves off, that's fine by me. But let's not do it here at PIC - let's do it for real. My last serious fight was many years ago now (I KO'ed my Gunny Sergeant at Boot Camp over something I can't even remember), but I'm happy to take you on whenever.

Alternatively, if you want to engage in some pointless name-calling here at PIC, then with Ryan's indulgence, I'm happy to do that too - with one proviso - I have a pretty full week ahead of me, so don't start gloating just because I don't respond immediately to your poor-excuses-for-posts.

Bozo.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/9/2006 8:36:19 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Your irrational hatred of Microsoft has blinded you to the possibility that they have the ability to produce code as good as - if not better than - the underdog companies you champion. Microsoft haters/Apple Cultists/Linux Fanboys like you are a tiresome bore.

What a laugh! Let's see, which one of us is all bent out of shape because Palm is a Microsoft licensee now. Which one of us has holed himself in a bunker with a bunch of mouldering Clie's because he wouldn't just go out and buy himself a Dell Axim? Now which one of us makes about half his living writing software for Windows Mobile users?

Here's what I'm a shill for: any company that produces software or hardware that makes mobile computing more interesting to the public at large and more valuable to me and my customers. Microsoft has done a lot in that regard, especially recently, and I take my hat off to them for that. Palm has done their share, too--continues to in many respects--and it's hard not to be a little sentimental about the glory days when they were the only really good game in mobile computing.

But I manage to avoid it. You, on the other hand, are the one who should be taking Gekko's advice: don't get emotional about software platforms.

Oh, by the way, good catch about the new Remote Wipe feature in WM5. I've got customers who've been laying down big money since 2002 for that rather basic feature.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy drags himself off the mat... and gets biotchslapped AGAIN!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 9:28:07 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Your irrational hatred of Microsoft has blinded you to the possibility that they have the ability to produce code as good as - if not better than - the underdog companies you champion. Microsoft haters/Apple Cultists/Linux Fanboys like you are a tiresome bore.

What a laugh! Let's see, which one of us is all bent out of shape because Palm is a Microsoft licensee now.

Not me. I think Palm's bungling of the PalmOS (including the original decision to roll their own kernel, the decision to let those dumba$$ dreamers from Be run the PalmOS 6/Cobalt project, the bogus split into pa1mOne + PalmSource and the failure to regain control PalmOS) left them with no immediate option other than chugging the Microsoft Kool-Aid for a while. Maybe if Colligan plays his cards right he might eventually get to suckle from Bill Gates' rancid teat...

Which one of us has holed himself in a bunker with a bunch of mouldering Clie's because he wouldn't just go out and buy himself a Dell Axim?

My bunker is stocked with CLIEs because they are the BEST PDA hardware ever made, running the BEST OS, with the added advantages of familiarity and an optimized app library culled from my 10 year history with the platform. If you really think a Dell Axim is a "better" PDA than a European CLIE TH55 then it's obvious how little you know about PDAs, Beersy. Given the amount of crap you routinely post here it's shocking that you claim to be a "professional" developer. Do your poor clients/victims realize that your skillset doesn't extend beyond cobbling together (cr)apps with your $30 copy of PDA Toolbox?

Now which one of us makes about half his living writing software for Windows Mobile users?

Not you. Unless PDA Toolbox now does Windows Mobile...

Here's what I'm a shill for: any company that produces software or hardware that makes mobile computing more interesting to the public at large and more valuable to me and my customers. Microsoft has done a lot in that regard, especially recently, and I take my hat off to them for that. Palm has done their share, too--continues to in many respects--and it's hard not to be a little sentimental about the glory days when they were the only really good game in mobile computing.

Bull. Get off the soapbox and stop the lies. You're such a PalmSource cheerleader that I'm worried what your wife will say once she catches you wearing a miniskirt and pompoms in the basement. The amount of bootlicking you've done around PalmSource employees like Dianne Hackborn, Marty Fouts and David Schlesinger is truly disgraceful. Did Dianne walk on you with her stilettos? I'll bet you liked it too. Ohyeahbaby!

But I manage to avoid it.

Put the pompoms down, Beersy.

You, on the other hand, are the one who should be taking Gekko's advice: don't get emotional about software platforms.

"Emotional"? Moi? Guess again, Beersy. I'm the most dispassionate one here. You just have a tragic inability to detect sarcasm. Palm Apologist fanboys like you, Simony, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin are the only ones foaming at the mouth.

Oh, by the way, good catch about the new Remote Wipe feature in WM5. I've got customers who've been laying down big money since 2002 for that rather basic feature.

Microsoft is not the clueless, evil megacorp you fantasize them to be. And most (all?) of the people they have working in Redmond are smarter than you, Beersy. Don' delude yourself there's ANYTHING you can think of that hasn't already been thoroughly analyzed (and probably coded as well) by Microsoft. Don't cry, little buddy.


TVoR


Beersy drags himself off the mat... and gets biotchslapped AGAIN!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 10:36:24 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Your irrational hatred of Microsoft has blinded you to the possibility that they have the ability to produce code as good as - if not better than - the underdog companies you champion. Microsoft haters/Apple Cultists/Linux Fanboys like you are a tiresome bore.

What a laugh! Let's see, which one of us is all bent out of shape because Palm is a Microsoft licensee now.

Not me. I think Palm's bungling of the PalmOS (including the original decision to roll their own kernel, the decision to let those dumba$$ dreamers from Be run the PalmOS 6/Cobalt project, the bogus split into pa1mOne + PalmSource and the failure to regain control PalmOS) left them with no immediate option other than chugging the Microsoft Kool-Aid for a while. Maybe if Colligan plays his cards right he might eventually get to suckle from Bill Gates' rancid teat...

Which one of us has holed himself in a bunker with a bunch of mouldering Clie's because he wouldn't just go out and buy himself a Dell Axim?

My bunker is stocked with CLIEs because they are the BEST PDA hardware ever made, running the BEST OS, with the added advantages of familiarity and an optimized app library culled from my 10 year history with the platform. If you really think a Dell Axim is a "better" PDA than a European CLIE TH55 then it's obvious how little you know about PDAs, Beersy. Given the amount of crap you routinely post here it's shocking that you claim to be a "professional" developer. Do your poor clients/victims realize that your skillset doesn't extend beyond cobbling together (cr)apps with your $30 copy of PDA Toolbox?

Now which one of us makes about half his living writing software for Windows Mobile users?

Not you. Unless PDA Toolbox now does Windows Mobile...

Here's what I'm a shill for: any company that produces software or hardware that makes mobile computing more interesting to the public at large and more valuable to me and my customers. Microsoft has done a lot in that regard, especially recently, and I take my hat off to them for that. Palm has done their share, too--continues to in many respects--and it's hard not to be a little sentimental about the glory days when they were the only really good game in mobile computing.

Bull. Get off the soapbox and stop the lies. You're such a PalmSource cheerleader that I'm worried what your wife will say once she catches you wearing a miniskirt and pompoms in the basement. The amount of bootlicking you've done around PalmSource employees like Dianne Hackborn, Marty Fouts and David Schlesinger is truly disgraceful. Did Dianne walk on you with her stilettos? I'll bet you liked it too. Ohyeahbaby!

But I manage to avoid it.

Put the pompoms down, Beersy.

You, on the other hand, are the one who should be taking Gekko's advice: don't get emotional about software platforms.

"Emotional"? Moi? Guess again, Beersy. I'm the most dispassionate one here. You just have a tragic inability to detect sarcasm. Palm Apologist fanboys like you, Simony, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin are the only ones foaming at the mouth.

Oh, by the way, good catch about the new Remote Wipe feature in WM5. I've got customers who've been laying down big money since 2002 for that rather basic feature.

Microsoft is not the clueless, evil megacorp you fantasize them to be. And most (all?) of the people they have working in Redmond are smarter than you, Beersy. Don' delude yourself there's ANYTHING you can think of that hasn't already been thoroughly analyzed (and probably coded as well) by Microsoft. Don't cry, little buddy.


TVoR

Special message for Simony
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 10:51:37 PM # Q
Simony @ 4/9/2006 7:10:50 PM #

PS. If you want to take the gloves off, that's fine by me. But let's not do it here at PIC - let's do it for real. My last serious fight was many years ago now (I KO'ed my Gunny Sergeant at Boot Camp over something I can't even remember), but I'm happy to take you on whenever.

Very impressive. Was she sleeping at the time? (I assume "Gunny Sergeant" is Simonyese for "grandmother"...)

You want to meet me? Fine. Show up at Duboce Park in San Francisco at 10 p.m. tomorrow. I'll be waiting for you on the west side of the park and I'll be wearing a black jacket. Come alone.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
naio21 @ 4/10/2006 3:03:33 AM # Q
[b]Cervezas: "Can an admin remotely delete sensitive data on a lost device with Microsoft push? No."[/b]

Yes, it can be done (at least with WM5 devices). I remember a presentation for the iMate JasJar (the all-in-one bricky piece of technology) where the system administrator from a IT company remotely hard-resets an unit their clumsy CIO forgets at the cab. Easily and quickly.

Ivan

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/10/2006 8:43:13 AM # Q
Cervezas: "Can an admin remotely delete sensitive data on a lost device with Microsoft push? No."

Yes, it can be done (at least with WM5 devices). I remember a presentation for the iMate JasJar (the all-in-one bricky piece of technology) where the system administrator from a IT company remotely hard-resets an unit their clumsy CIO forgets at the cab. Easily and quickly.

Yes, I hadn't read that this is now going to be available in the new Exchange push update. Of course it's been available for several years from 3rd party developers. One thing I wanted to clarify is that to date all of the enterprise push email solutions aside from BlackBerry have been cross-platform: it was never something Palm had that Windows Mobile did not. It's just that for both of those platforms companies had to pay $50-$100 per device, usually on top of a sizeable setup fee, to get it. Microsoft's built-in solution is *really* welcome for these customers and while there are ones with more powerful and mature device management features, I suspect the addition of the "Device Wipe" feature will be enough for many all-WM companies to let their subscriptions to Intellisync Mobile Suite, Visto, Good or Consilient lapse.

There was a time around 2002 when Palm seemed to understand that push email and connected applications would be the way for it to expand into the enterprise. Palm.NET, the i700 series (of one), and Palm Query Applications combined to give users BlackBerry-style push email and rich client Internet applications. But without the clever hardware design people over at Handspring Palm couldn't seem to make a device that could compete with BlackBerry in that already fast-growing market. I don't know that we'll ever see Garnet devices with push email capabilities built in, but I notice that ALP is supposed to include an OMA compliant Data Sync/Device Management client, which is what Funambol's solution is. If ACCESS is serious about open source and puts the Funambol client in ROM, ALP phones could have native push email--along with all the other slick features that companies need to remotely manage fleets of devices over the air. If Palm expects its own Linux OS to be competitive with ALP they should consider the same option. Microsoft will surely add more administrative features to their solution over time, but for now there's an opening to leapfrog their comparatively weak (but much needed) offering in this area.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Surur @ 4/10/2006 11:50:35 AM # Q

Actually this is a classic example of a "good enough" solution where a monopoly (Office/ Exchange) is being leveraged to make it the de facto standard. I believe one push e-mail provider is already complaining about this and has filed suit against Microsoft.

Not that I see too much wrong with it, in that I prefer an intergrated solution, but I can certainly see where they are coming from.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/10/2006 1:44:24 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
Actually this is a classic example of a "good enough" solution where a monopoly (Office/ Exchange) is being leveraged to make it the de facto standard.

Exactly. It doesn't have to be the best.

It's going to be interesting to see just how big the Treo/Exchange Push combination will be. I expect it to drive WM Treo sales pretty powerfully and perhaps tilt Palm toward more aggressive WM product plans. Word from CTIA is that the 700w is hurting RIM already, even just in anticipation of the Exchange Push update.

You have to figure that whatever Palm decides to do with their upcoming Linux Treos (ALP or Home-grown) they're going to be under a lot of pressure to have push email built-in. Too bad they didn't build on the vision they had for this four years ago. They might occupy the dominant position that RIM does today.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Don't get fooled again
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2006 2:59:27 PM # Q

Be careful what you say, Surur. First of all, Microsoft does not have a monopoly and as far as I know they will not be doing anything to prevent third party solutions from working with Exchange. Secondly, feature creep is inevitable in all software + hardware as they mature, and push email is a feature that Microsoft should actually have added YEARS ago. Should Microsoft not be allowed to add features to its products simply because they are bigger than their competitors? Just look at the number of features now standard in Windows that would have cost extra just a few years ago: Web browser, media player, advanced disk defragmenter, etc. Is it wrong to expect future versions of Windows to ship with an antivirus app, advanced compression utility, proper photo editor, voice recognition software, etc.? Yes, every bundled app will obviously take sales away from the competition, but shouldn't it then be up to the competition to make sure their own products offer features/quality/performance that Microsoft's "free" apps lack?

Had Palm actually tried to offer similar innovation/value/features 3 years ago instead of pushing that (embarassing) "Zen of Palm" B.S., perhaps PalmOS would not be in suspended animation the way it is now.

In America, the corporate motto is, "If you can't compete, SUE." And preferrably sue a certain large company everyone loves to hate. This ploy has worked to the tune of over 1 BILLION dollars in recent years, with beneficiaries as diverse as the State of California and the owners of a little bit of software called BeOS. The fact that (current PalmSource board director JL Gassee's company received a 10 MILLION dollar payout (reward for failure?) is a travesty. Had PalmSource not been bought by Access, no doubt the final act in the Palm tragedy would have involved "Ratboy" Benhamou ordering a liwsuit against Microsoft. As Yakov Smirnov used to say: What a country!

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Surur @ 4/10/2006 3:09:24 PM # Q

VOR, re integration, as the Linux crowd will tell you, the rules are different for a convicted monopolist.

Personally, I prefer a solution included by the platform provider (PalmSource for POS, Microsoft for WM) as this does not tie you down to a specific hardware provider, and provides better for integration with the OS, and provides an API 3rd parties can reliably build upon. In that way Good and Seven etc will never be able to compete, even if included by Palm. It does not make for a consistent platform if the TX has push email but Garmin does not.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2006 3:13:37 PM # Q
shouldn't it then be up to the competition to make sure their own products offer features/quality/performance that Microsoft's "free" apps lack?

As Quicken has shown, it IS possible to compete against Microsoft despite a not-so-level playing field and the fact that Bill Gates is OBVIOUSLY on steroids.

Of course, don't forget that Microsoft's main goal is probably using Windows Mobile to boost/solidify the sales of Microsoft Exchange Server, not vice versa.

TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Surur @ 4/10/2006 3:23:31 PM # Q

If MS bundles MS Money with Windows Quicken would be dead in 1 year (except for the shell pursuing the court case for the next 10 years of course). Also Money would work transparently with ALL the banks websites.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2006 3:28:55 PM # Q
If MS bundles MS Money with Windows Quicken would be dead in 1 year (except for the shell pursuing the court case for the next 10 years of course). Also Money would work transparently with ALL the banks websites.

Microsoft has played it cool/patient on this one. They actually tried to buy Quicken back in the 1990's but were rejected. So Gates ordered his codemonkeys to build a "better Quicken". Eventually they beat Quicken, though I hear nowadays it's mainly a matter of personal preference which one people feel is "better". (This software category matured 4 or 5 years ago and now it's mainly fluff that gets added each year. I use MS Money 2003 because I feel subsequent versions actually were a step backward.) Microsoft would probably love to give MS Money away but doesn't want to tempt the lawsuit gods yet again...

By the way, if anyone out there has an interest in easily keeping their checkbooks balanced, I highly recommend the combination of Microsoft Money 2003 ($10 on eBay) and Ultrasoft Money for PalmOS PDAs. These apps are the perfect example of how computers can simpliy our lives. Ultrasoft Money is definitely on my "Top 10 Greatest PalmOS Apps" list:

Address
DateBk5
Directory Assistant
EVPlug Base
HandyShopper
LauncherX
Memo
NetFront
TCPMP
Ultrasoft Money

TVoR

Baker's dozen: TVoR's Top 13 PalmOS apps
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2006 4:10:10 PM # Q
How could I have left these out?

Address
BackupMan
DateBk5
Directory Assistant
EVPlug Base (old skool!)
HandyShopper
LauncherX
Memo
NetFront
PowerRUN
TCPMP
TealLock
Ultrasoft Money

DiddleBug and McPhling barely missed the cut...

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Ryan @ 4/10/2006 7:03:38 PM # Q
To address the original question here, I think Slam is a good writer and its nice to see other palm blogs out there.

The Internet needs more honest blogs. It's too bad palmstation shut down as it was a good site, but people move on and do other work and its really not easy keeping a large site up and running.

I would encourage slam to keep up the blog but also email me if he wants to submit any well written articles for publication on PIC as I would be happy to consider it.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/10/2006 8:34:45 PM # Q
> You want to meet me? Fine. Show up at Duboce Park in San Francisco at 10 p.m. tomorrow. I'll be waiting for you on the west side of the park and I'll be wearing a black jacket. Come alone.

So you live in San Fransisco? That explains a few things, especially your fascination with lubricants.

Let me know, when you are next in Boston and I'll arrange a time at my gym. I'll also prepare a watertight Waiver for you to sign (which exonerates me from the damage you will suffer).

BTW, 'Gunny' is USMC slang for Gunnery Sergeant - normally the Gunny is the toughest guy in a rifle company. Of course, you wouldn't know about that because your kind is never tolerated in the military. (Regardless of Clinton's 'don't ask' policy, there are still ways to weed out the losers.)

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
PenguinPowered @ 4/10/2006 9:46:43 PM # Q
re integration, as the Linux crowd will tell you, the rules are different for a convicted monopolist.

The rules are the same for all companies. Of course, the way you become a convicted monopolist is to break them and get caught.

As Microsoft did.

Microsoft has innovated. Twice in the 30 years I've been in the industry: tool tips and the wheel mouse.

They've also broken the law and abused their status as a monopoly. For which they have been convicted, but not adequately punished.

The interesting thing about Microsoft is that they're dying. I haven't seen as large a company as obviously on the verge of death since CDC fell apart. Alas, like CDC, given their size and momentum, it will probably take that 10-15 years to die off.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
cervezas @ 4/11/2006 1:14:06 AM # Q
The interesting thing about Microsoft is that they're dying.

In the long run, perhaps. But as J. M. Keynes pointed out, in the long run we're all dead.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
PenguinPowered @ 4/11/2006 1:45:09 AM # Q
They're dying today in the same sense that CDC was dying in 1980. If you were enough in touch with the industry, you could see that it was over with for CDC, but they were so large it took them until much later to finally fall over.

Microsoft has taken the fatal blow, but it'll take 10-15 years for it to finally topple them completely.

IBM is the only computer company ever to have been as far gone as Microsoft is now and recovered. True, IBM has done it at least three times, but Bill Gates is no Thomas Watson Jr.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Ryan @ 4/11/2006 12:43:01 PM # Q
which CDC are you talking about?
RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
hkklife @ 4/11/2006 2:26:26 PM # Q
Likely this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_Cyber

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
PenguinPowered @ 4/11/2006 3:21:39 PM # Q
Yup, Control Data Corporation = CDC, was the one I was refering to.

Wouldn't surprise me at all in 30 years if someone had to ask "who was microsoft"?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
hkklife @ 4/11/2006 3:33:33 PM # Q
While we're on that subject, I predict Sony is going to be the next "giant" to take a fall--IMO even worse than M$. They are not going out of business by any means but they are going to end up drastically paring their non-core product lines. Within 5-10 years Sony will be just a shell of its former self.

Right now you have Sony canning unpprofitable niche items like CRT TVs/monitors, turntables, cassette decks/Walkmen etc. Yet in many of those fields they had some of the best products on the market--CRTs especially (to this day I'd still take a 34" Sony XBR2 16:9 CRT HDTV and a 24" FW900 16:10 CRT over ANY LCD/plasma/DLP--TVoR are you there to champion these Sony classics alongside me? ))

Then with one proprietary format flop after another--the endless procession of Memory Stick spinoff formats, ATRAC, Minidisc, Digital 8, microMV, S-Link, UMD etc etc.
The end result will be a Sony with a lineup that's jettisoned most of its compelling offerings (ES series audio, XBR tube TVs, "Made in Japan" quality) while still handicapped by the various inter-departmental feuding (DRM anyone?) + clashing Japanese vs. American mentalities

Sorry for getting kinda OT....so, any signs of the 700P ;-)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/11/2006 10:27:29 PM # Q
Right now you have Sony canning unpprofitable niche items like CRT TVs/monitors, turntables, cassette decks/Walkmen etc. Yet in many of those fields they had some of the best products on the market--CRTs especially (to this day I'd still take a 34" Sony XBR2 16:9 CRT HDTV and a 24" FW900 16:10 CRT over ANY LCD/plasma/DLP--TVoR are you there to champion these Sony classics alongside me? ))

I haven't watched broadcast TV in years, but I do own a high end Sony CRT for watching DVDs. (I think their 27 inch models were always the best in their lineup in terms of picture quality.) If they're really going to dump their TVs, maybe I should get an XBR before they're gone.

Last time I looked at TVs (around 5 years ago) Sonys were the best, Panasonic's Gaoo (and Tau?) lineup was fading fast, and Toshiba was starting to get competitive. I hear things are a lot different now... Koreans taking over? If it's anything like other electronics, Samsung is rapidly becoming the "new Sony".


_______________________________________________________________________


As expected, the coward Simony didn't show. I'll leave him a standing invitation to come on down to Duboce Park if he ever finds some cojones. His comment "Of course, you wouldn't know about that because your kind is never tolerated in the military. (Regardless of Clinton's 'don't ask' policy, there are still ways to weed out the losers.)" speaks volumes about his limited intellect. His homophobia is probably a repression of deeper "issues"...


TVoR

OT: TV commentary for TVoR
hkklife @ 4/11/2006 11:05:34 PM # Q
Voice;

Sony KD-34XBR970 is the FINAL (as far as all of the Tube-O-philes are currently concerned) high quality HD CRT set coming to the market. Retail availability for this monster is very spotty and it lacks the SFP tube its much more expensive predecessor had but it still has a mostly XBR chasis design.

http://tinyurl.com/zn4xf

I'd grab one now because after this time next year these things will be relics and you won't be able to get an LCD or plasma or comparable quality for anywhere close to this price/size/# of inputs.

Panny, Toshiba, Thomson (RCA) and anyone else worth a hoot have already cancelled or announced plans to cancel CRT production in the very near future. I think Toshiba is rebranding some cheap-o Orion Chinese junk for the immediate future but it looks like JVC, Sammy, & Sony will be the last "real" CE companies standing when it comes to decent quality TV sets...and yes, broadcast TV blows incredibly nowadays.

So...anyone heard any new rumors about the 700P? ;-)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/12/2006 10:47:52 PM # Q
Wow. I had no idea things had changed THAT much in TV land. 5 years ago I remember looking at the KV-36XBR400 and being impressed, but I went with Sony's best 27 inch instead.

Thanks for the heads up about the TVs. For what it's worth, I just raed a little on Cnet about the KD-34XBR960 and there were a lot of concerns about its reliability. Still, I'll probably end up picking up either a KD-34XBR960 or KD-34XBR970 before they disappear.

TVoR

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
hkklife @ 4/13/2006 12:44:02 AM # Q
I have a 27" Wega which replaced a 27" V-series Trinitron (the last one produced before they went all Wega). Both are/were splendid TVs. I also have two Sammy CRT HDs, one widescreen and one standard. Both are good sets for the money but I prefer nearly everything about the Sonys (pricetag aside).

I'm personally planning on jettisoning all of my non-HD sets along with one of the Samsungs & picking up a Sony XBR970 sometime in the next 6-12 months...I figure the very first batch might have some quirks so I'll wait until they've been in production ~6 months at least before springing for one.

It's so funny...unless it was one of those ultra high end Sonys, I wouldn't touch a CRT monitor for a PC anymore. LCD *MONITOR* technology has really improved in the past two years. However, I do not care for watching movies/TV on plasma/LCD screens-the CRT just seems so much more "natural" and richer.

A notable 2nd place finisher are the Samsung SlimFits. They have some geometry issues and have weak remotes/# of inputs/color processing/internal speakers compared to the Sonys but come in several hundred $ cheaper across the board. The sweetest current HD set for the $ is the new 27" Samsung SlimFit. If you just want a starter HD set you cannot beat the Samsungs for the $.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/13/2006 2:39:45 AM # Q
hkklife, take a look at some of the posts here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php?

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KD_34XBR960/4505-6481_7-30787600-2.html?tag=nav

I spent a couple hours online and it sounds like the KD-34XBR960 is the way to go. The KD-34XBR970 apparently is a big step down from the KD-34XBR960 despite Sony's deceptive numbering scheme. I'm going to try and order a KD-34XBR960 - but most retailers stopped selling them a while ago. It sounds like this might be the last high end CRT television Sony (or anyone else!) makes.

A lot of people on avsforum.com were bashing the Samsung SlimFit models, but I'll reserve judgement until I've evaluated them for myself.

If I find a KD-34XBR960 before it's too late I owe you! Thanks again.

TVoR


RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
hkklife @ 4/13/2006 10:25:33 AM # Q
Voice;

No problem. I woulda pushed the 960 harder in my previous comments but they are IMPOSSIBLE to fine nowadays. I haven't seen one in stock and for sale since.....Oct/Nov? I think the Christmas rush wiped out the last of the existing stocks.

I had too many other essentials (house stuff, new laptop etc) last year to justify getting one so I have no one to blame but myself for missing the boat on the last REALLY HIGH END CRT TV. Of course, the 970 is not a *BAD* set by any means...just a far step below the 960 and not deserving of the title as its "successor". The 970 now holds the dubious title as the final "even close to high end" CRT and I am certain there will be no additional ones forthcoming. LG actually made a few nifty CRTs in the past year or two but their reputation is sort of spotty and I didnt like the fingerprint-prone glossy exterior. They also maxxed out at 30" IIRC.

Basically, the XBR 970 loses S-Link (no big deal), Firewire ports (no big deal), the MS slot (no big deal) and the SFP tube (major loss).

Do note that the avsforum crowd can be ULTRA fussy at times but you'll find few apologists on that site--most of that crowd are serious videophiles. I'd still take a Sony if I had over a grand to spend on an HD set but with less than that I'd sleep easy with a SlimFit Sammy..again, a solid & stylish set for the $.

So in summation: if you can find a 960, get it. If not, go with the 970. If you want a 27", go with the 27" Wega or the 27" SlimFit Sammy.

Out of respect to Ryan & the rest of the PIC crowd we should save any additional TV discussion for e-mail vs. carrying it out here on the PIC frontpage.

P.S. I only take CNET reviews with a grain of salt. Maybe for laser printers or AIO machines they are fine but I don't consider them an "enthusiast" site anymore. Look what's happened to Computer Shopper magazine under their watch! (Does snyone else remember the glory days of hauling home the enormous Computer Shopper magazine and drooling over the pricey workstations offered by companies you'd never heard of (Comtrade, Zeon, Midwest Micro etc)?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Final word on TVs:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/13/2006 4:30:02 PM # Q
Actually, Fry's had them on sale at $1104 this past weekend, but everywhere seems to be sold out this week. I checked a bunch of places yesterday and found an online retailer that supposedly has them in stock. (I won't say who until I find out if I can get one!) It pi$$ed me off that I missed the Fry's deal: possibly the best 34 inch CRT TV ever made for less than half price (originally $2500). Damn! If you want to take a chance on an open box unit there are several left and Fry's in San Diego has the made in Mexico (apparently less reliable) Sony KD-34XBR960N variation. I passed on that and would hold out for the original Sony KD-34XBR960. If I can't get one, I'll just keep using my 27 inch Wega for another 5 or 6 years until something significantly better arrives.

Adios.

RE: Some interesting numbers on Treo sales...
Simony @ 4/18/2006 2:02:41 AM # Q
> As expected, the coward Simony didn't show. I'll leave him a standing invitation to come on down to Duboce Park if he ever finds some cojones. His comment "Of course, you wouldn't know about that because your kind is never tolerated in the military. (Regardless of Clinton's 'don't ask' policy, there are still ways to weed out the losers.)" speaks volumes about his limited intellect. His homophobia is probably a repression of deeper "issues"...

Well, I just saw these pearls of wisdom.

How revealing - you must really like your Sony TV for, ahem, watching all your Village People videos.

If you think that I am offended by the label 'homophobic', then you are very much mistaken. I'm not afraid of you or any of your pals from the Brokeback Sauna. Disgusted, perhaps - but not frightened.

Have a nice life.

Reply to this comment

For what it's worth...B&M RETAIL signs of Treo 700P

hkklife @ 4/9/2006 3:55:02 PM # Q
I was at the local CUSA yesterday to see how the store rearranging was going (it was a mess) & trolling the bargain bin for treasures.

The Palm section surprisingly had a bit more stuff than it previously had. LifeDrive was nowhere in sight amongst the demo models--sales clerk said they had 6 in lockup and that was it as far as the LD is concerned. Z22, T|E2 and TX were all present & accounted for.

Among the usual selection of bright orange Palm styli, chargers, and cases I noticed a nifty new black hardcase for the Treos. It was matte black with a snap closure and a nice little chromed Palm logo on the front flap. What was most interesting was that I had never seen this case before (either on Palm.com or at a retail shop) and it said "Fits Treo 650 and 700" with NO mention of "P" or "W" anywhere else. Yet the Treo plastic case clearly said "700w" on it as did most of the other accessories ("Fits Treo 650 and 700w"). This new hardcase had packaging an even brighter orange than the other accessories around it.

So, it's not much to go on but a likely sign of something about to drop.


The Sprint/Nextel counter still had a non funcitonal 650 on display of course.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment
Start a New Comment Thread Top