Comments on: Foleo Delayed Until Late September/Early October?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BqLEq86z-c

I just got the word from Ben Combee that the Barron's piece was a bit of a simplification from reality. It's not that it can't sync, it's that over time under load it starts seeing some intermittent failures. That's all a paraphrase, check out what he said on the comments on my post, where he gives some more clarification:

http://comments.deasil.com/2007/08/23/poor-palm/

<http://comments.deasil.com/> that is my tech blog. There are many like it, but that one is mine.

He said more later.

=======

Luv them memory leaks, eh?

Quality programming lives!

Uh...somewhere...

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1354620&postcount=57

And that's from a fanboy...giggle.

Once again, SV spreads FUD. The antidote from someone who's actually worked with the Foleo (David Beers):

As for the whole Wind River thing, this is about kernel and low-level kernel services, tools and developer support. Wind River's "Platform for Consumer Devices" is not an operating system, it's a platform on which a company like Palm can build an operating system with nicely-integrated tools for both system and application developers. I've been saying all along that Palm, like Motorola, ACCESS, and others before them would partner with a commercial Linux vendor to deliver the low-level parts of the system, rather than doing these in-house. Part of the advantage of Linux that there *is* this kind of layered ecosystem now.

The Wind River Workbench is the piece that will most interest application developers, because it's a state-of-the-art Eclipse-based IDE for embedded Linux development--the kind of thing that would be a huge waste of time for Palm to reinvent. The distro and toolchain have been under development at Wind River concurrently with the development of Foleo, so even the 1.0 version wasn't available at the time Palm started this project. I expect that Palm has known for some time that whatever Linux distro they built on at the start would be updated to the latest and greatest commercial Linux distro from a partner like Wind River or MontaVista near release time. If you want to say for dramatic effect that they are "dumping" the old distro they started with you could do that, but I'd be willing to bet that that distro, too, was something they licensed from a vendor back then, not something that Palm developed themselves and are now "dumping" (along with the internal team) in disappointment and disgust.

They're not "oustsourcing anew"; there have been rumours of Palm and Wind River collaborating for well over a year now.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Sigh. Okay, SV. Who needs reality when you can just make it up? Reality's over-rated anyways*.

*especially reality television

SeldomVisitor wrote:

They are outsourcing anew. They are dumping their own in-house version of Linux for the Fooleo (and more?) and (correctly, IMHO) buying a more robust version from someone who knows what they are doing.

Not true. But then you probably knew that, didn't you? ;)

So, once more: The Foleo OS was developed against a 2.4 Linux kernel that Intel provided with the processor. We have this from Ben Combee. All of the mods that Palm made against that kernel are being ported to the new 2.6 Wind River kernel, which was selected (if you know WR's business) because it plays nice with Wind River's developer tools (especially the debugger) and because it gets patches from the Linux community certified and applied by WR on a regular release schedule. In addition, Palm's custom DirectFB windowing toolkit and application framework--created to avoid all the bloat of X Windows and GTK and the sluggishness that you usually expect from a PC--is not going anywhere. It, too, is just being ported to the new kernel.

There's no evidence shown to date that any of Palm's work at all is being "dumped" or that anything beyond mundane porting, kernel maintenance, support and tool-development is being outsourced. Were it otherwise I expect we'd be hearing about a delay of a couple of years, instead of a couple of weeks.

There also isn't any evidence that Palm is waiting for that port to be completed before they release the product. They certainly didn't wait for it to be complete before they started seeding developers and doing public betas--everything we've seen in still on the 2.4 kernel. Knowing what we know, it stands to reason that Palm is probably having trouble with the Treo software more than the Foleo's: for example, the Bluetooth stack on some of the Treos hasn't exactly worked reliably or uniformly, right?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Is right now!

We at Palm Motors are excited about our new AWD V8 Foleo. However, we are sad to report that we are delaying its release as it currently is not able to actually steer.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

What brakes?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Ho! Thanks for the link, SV! I hadn't read anything on Barro's in regards to Palm or Fooleo-bashing prior to today, in fact. And the part about "...people streaming to the exits...7th inning of a blowout...." WAS JUST CLASSIC! But I am stunned that in all of our chatter here over the summer months about the Foleo that this article & grim first-hand account was not mentioned here. Perhaps the tech-savvy types don't read Barron's?

Does anyone think Palm are taking the early criticisms to heart and desperately trying to add more built-in functionality? Or are they just bug-patching and troubleshooting?

Didn't someone on TC (maybe it was even TVoR) post a rumor a while back that the 680 was NOT on the list of initially approved Treo to sync with the Fooleo? I seem to recall reading that so far just the 700w/wx/p, 755p and 750 were on the approved device list. That's an AWFULLY short list of compatible smartphones. And if the 680 is indeed a no-go that just adds fuel to my gnawing that the best "value" proposition amongst the Treos, the 680, is soon to be discontinued in favor of a GSM version of the Centro.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

> ...But I am stunned that in all of our chatter here over the
> summer months about the Foleo that this article & grim first-hand
> account was not mentioned here...

I remember reading that but don't remember how/from where what I read was linked. It doesn't seem to be of much relevance here, though, so doesn't appear to be something =I= would have mentioned - the stupid Hawkins' comment about wanting a faster processor made WHILE giving the first very-public D demo is something I would have commented about here, have to admit, but I don't remember doing so (but believe I must have at least once!).

> ...Perhaps the tech-savvy types don't read Barron's?...

I read everything that crosses my screen and a lot of stuff crosses that screen but do not regularly visit Barron's - if a link to a Barron's article shows up somewhere ELSE, however, I'll follow it down and read there, too.

Who cares about bugs?!?!?!?

Who cares about stability?!?!?!?

Who cares about missing functionality?!?!?!?

Who cares about bad hardware/software QC?!?!?!?

Who cares about customer service?!?!?!?

NONE OF THAT MATTERS!!!!!!!

THE TRUE THINGS THAT MATTER:

1. PALM IS DESIGNED FOR ONE HANDED OPERATION!

2. PALM HAS CUT AND PASTE!

PALM RULEZ!!!!! DR00L!!!!! :P

Seriously, Palm is in major trouble.

Cool. I'm very interested in hearing real user comments and evaluation. After you've had a chance to use it, please come back and report what you think. I'm really interested in the keyboard size (i.e. if I can possibly use a keyboard that size).


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

On a little trip to google I found this http://www.ncixus.com/search/?categoryid=0&q=eee

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

The question was where can it be ordered. Not when does it come out. Didn't you pre-order a Fooleo for Dear Miss Beers? If you did then I guess you already gave Palm your money.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

I'm not supposed to reveal anything about it that hasn't already been made public....

Fair 'nuff. But you know we all expect a serious write-up just as soon as it's allowed. So you'd better start now; we aren't a very patient group. ;-)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Hey, Beers, my transient aneurysm is acting up and is compelling me to think about the Flopeo as a grab-n-go blogging machine.

Some questions:

1) You on WordPress? How about just going there if you're not and creating a test blog. Does the Flopeo -- OK, I'll stop the smartass stuff -- does the Foleo play well with all features of the WordPress web interface? Posting, changing settings, et al.

2) I'd need to do some basic photo editing. Nothing Photoshoppy. Basically being able to resize things down to 320x240 (or even to 450 x whatever), crop, and cut the palette down so the photo when posted in the blog doesn't choke devices with limited CPU and RAM (hey, like the Foleo!). I guess the current bundled Photo app has none of that capability?

My aneurysm is also making me wonder why Palm is so intent on Treo email syncing. Look at the iPhone: YahooMail is built in. Not only would I be able to have mobile access to YahooMail without struggling with its web interface on a wee screen, but I'd be doing it *without* paying the $$$ a POP account would cost. Why can't Palm strike a similar deal and include YahooMail and even GMail in the Foleo? That'd be a big selling point!

So now that your missus has had hands-on with it, is she still in mad love with it? Does it live up to her pre-fondle illusions?

I asked some Qs back there.

Whoa. I never heard about TealPaint for Foleo.

What about the missus?!!?

Hmmmm...

More Qs later, perhaps. Thanks.

Oh wow. I d/led TealPaint to try on my LifeDrive.

Major suck!

There is no way to resize a photo! There is Canvas Resize, which helpfully informed me that if I did *that* (the ONLY resize there was!), it would CUT OFF PART OF THE IMAGE!

OK, I'm not even going to go into the delay delay delay it took to IMPORT a 3MB JPEG and then SAVE it. I expect at least THAT not to be the case on the Foleo which, unlike POS, can use *real world* file formats.

To quote Uncov: FAIL!

Wozniak, Jobs and Gates together couldn't save this thing.

Sure they could. But I suspect they don't want to.

Woz wants ??? ...to tell stories and ride his segway? Hey, all props to the Woz for his past accomplishments, but what has Woz done for you lately?

Jobs doesn't want the iPhone to sync with a Foleo. Heck, it barely syncs with Outlook. What does Foleo bring to Apple? Apple's killer app is iPhone/iTunes/OSX. Why would Jobs break up that holy trinity?

Gates has all these Asian makers making UMPCs that nobody wants. He's trying to give away Zunes. He's hemmoraging money on Xbox-360s, gaming, and the dreaded THREE RED LIGHTS or red ring of death. Vista adoption is actually going in reverse. The backlash against Vista is something we haven't seen since Windows ME. Windows Media Center and cablecard installs are so complex and unreliable that nobody wants to sell them -- except to specialty home theater installers.

The Foleo form factor is nice, but I no longer have a Treo, so it's a web browser that doesn't fully support all of the sites I visit. Ironically, I can't view the above link for the keystone cops video on the Foleo.

Poopie's recipe for Palm re: the Foleo:

- make it a standalone device first, and a mobile companion second
- provide a mail client that support POP and IMAP as well as phone sync
- provide a calendar and addressbook app - what is a palm without a calendar and addressbook?
- Provide a direct sync for Foleo to Palm desktop
- Provide a direct sync to Google calendar and other standards-compliant calendars directly from the Foleo
- tabbed web browser or support for multiple browser windows
- terminal-server-client ported to foleo to allow citrix, vnc, rdp access
- rj45 port
- multiprotocol IM client (pidgin, please)
- ability to print to an IPP printer
- some sort of journal/blog app that ties in with calendar, photos, and an online blog like wordpress / blogger /etc.
- secure password manager app
- todo list
- a few games included by default - Bike Or Die, Bejewelled, and a sudoku or card game would be my choices.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

On the Xbox 360, I'm on my 3rd box. However each time I took it back to the the store I got a new one no questions asked. Granted it has some heat related issues but that is not what caused the problems in mine. Ultimely the 360 has a fantastic repoitoire of games, especially for the adult gamer, and I will be buying a 2nd one, the the elite which has a few upgrades on it. Halo 3 is going to be a blockbuster so whatever MS has lost in concole fixes, and note the fixed boxes are resold as refurbs at EB Games for about $250 US.
On Vista, I'm not sure what all the carping is about, I like it. It might be the high hardware requirments, granted it's no OSX but it is a substantial improvement over XP.
iPhone another outstanding device, I ditched my MP3 player, camera,cellphone, gps and laptop. I feel a lot more freedom without fiddling witha bunch of devices very liberating, and that to me is the big issue with the fooleo, haveing been a Palm fanboy for 10 years and early adepter the fooleo leaves me with a big yawn.

I'd agree, except...CAN the stock go any lower??????????????

Who could have IMAGINED that PALM would throw up their hands in disgust and DUMP their own Linux instantiation for the Foleo after YEARS of "development" only a month (or two now...) before the Foleo is to be released?

Do you somehow think that if you keep repeating this crap, it will make it true? Give up already.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8656/#136503

Excuse me? I am repeating verified right-out-of-PALM crap while you are repeating crap from some inexperienced net denizen.

The "inexperienced denizen" is someone who actually has a Foleo to play with. And can you please show me the quote where Palm said that they were "dumping" all their Linux work?

Palm have developed their own custom Linux windowing toolkit, application framework and applications. All of these are being ported from the old Intel Linux 2.4 kernel on which Foleo was developed (remember, Foleo has been gestating for around three years) to Wind River's 2.6 kernel. This will make ensure full compatibility with the Wind River suite of development tools and make life easier for developers, as well making sure the Foleo will receive a steady schedule of Wind River-certified kernel patches.

What is so hard to understand here? Did you expect Palm to stick with an outdated kernel forever? Did you expect them to create their own suite of software development tools, when part of the whole point of moving to Linux is to take advantage of the fact that said tools are already readily available?

Palm have been in talks with Wind River for quite some time. This is obviously a planned transition from an older kernel to a new one. Obvious to everyone except you, it seems...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

"sandbag Palm stock"

While it may be easier to see a conspiracy theory, reality is that Palm is a poorly run company and thus a bad investment. Don't fall in love with a company becuase you like its product.

> ...(*) WAITAMINUTE! They =are= overhauling their developer ranks! Out completely
> with Windows, out almost completely with Linux, out perhaps already but not yet
> mentioned with PalmOS! Maybe they canned the head of "development", too, by now -
> certainly looks to THIS =very-experienced= developer that PALM's "development"
> problems can DIRECTLY be laid at the lap of management, not their "developers",
> because their problems are SO diverse and across ALL platforms - can't blame a single
> "developer team" for THAT (***)!...

Michael Farese, SVP of Engineering, is out of PALM effective September 14th.

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8869/#136233

Giggle.

^^ Hands up who cares?

(crickets chirp. frogs croak. tumbleweed rolls by.)

One more thing, Ryan. Let's say the Foleo sells in gobs to a Corporate audience. Do you *really* think those pinstripers will come *here* for Foleo info seeing as how freakout is an Official Voice here?

Forget it, pal.

Someone else will start a Foleo-only site and bye-bye PIC.

I only call *retards* retard. And the consensus here is with that opinion. You retard.

> ...Palm is definitely where the mobile Linux action is...

Hahahahahaha.

What, the Nokia (Anti-)Internet Tablet doesn't exist? Look at how long that's been out. Where's the flood of apps?

Keep having those Linux wet dreams.