palmOne Tungsten C Update 3.0

Yes, you are right, maybe having DocToGo 6 in an update is asking too much. How about the improved PIMs that are basically in every PalmOne device but the C?

Updating the PIM apps on the T|C would require that you also update your Palm Desktop setup, and it could intefere with users that are using conduits or other applications that aren't compatible with the new PIM data formats.

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog

Yes, I meant upgrade from DocToGo 5 to 6...

Mountain--Have you tried a Hard Reset before? Have you ever renamed the "Backup" Folder to a name such as Pilot or et. al. before?

If the Fatal Error persists, you might have to do a hard reset, go to your username (6-char truncated version, for example, vesther is vesthe), rename the Backup Folder to Pilot or Tungsten C, or whatever you want to do, have all PIMs set at "Desktop overwrites Handheld" (Mac overwrites Handheld in Macintosh), do a HotSync, and install one PDA program at a time, to see which one is the offending software.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

Dear MountainLogic,

I have had this problem before with older palm os pda's, and I would say that the ROM is corrupt. I would suggest trying a system reset.(hit the reset button while holding the up button). If that doesn't work, you should call palmOne.

OK, I've got things back to life. Thanks for all the suggestions. I had tried several hard resets with no joy so I did another hard reset, and sync'ed with an old host PC with older back-up images. I then resync'ed with my new (main) host PC and got everything back. Some apps showed up as catagory unfiled and I had to return them to their categories by hand, but every thing else came out fine.

I think the problem may have been the sync function of one of the apps. Things seemed to fail right at the end of restore in a non-deterministic way. Sometime all the restored apps would have their cat's right and sometimes some of them would be unfiled.

Palm does deserve kudos for providing updates for a product this long on the market, thanks Palm One/Source.

I've never seen a welfare check in my life, and I think you suck.

;-)

Yes this is just akin to a Microsoft Service Pack for Windows (without of the fancy new features) which brings me to my point:

PalmOne could get major kudos from the community for actually taking the bold move of ADDING features or updating ROM apps for once! I'll say again that PalmOne should institute a policy of ALL Tungsten models receiving at least one "guaranteed" mid-life OS/app update direct & supported by PalmOne. That would do some damage control to keep peple from defecting to Zires or PPC and show that, for the first time in years, PalmOne cares about their customers.

Something I find interesting are the supposed "MMC driver enhancement", first introduced in 2.0 C Update. I'd like to know if this is just for MMC or for SD as well and if they are bug-related or speed-related in nature. I had 2.0 on my T|C for a while before I sold it and I never noticed any appreciable difference.

At least the TC is getting an update, unlike the folks using WM SE which will never be updated. Or worse yet, those Clie owners which are at a complete dead end.

Hey maybe owners should just be glad if it isn't disintegrating or the paint isn't coming off!

I have to agree with Rhino because the TC is such a potent machine, and it appears that PalmOne wants to make this device age well, it's pretty much a production workhorse for business. One day, though, I will need to see more PalmOne devices with Wi-Fi, but that depends how much willing PalmOne is willing to commit itself to the IEEE 802.11 standard.

For now, the Tungsten C remains the best handheld PalmOne has to offer, in spite of the Monaural flaw.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

You call it a flaw, I call it a premature embrace of Voice-Over-IP.

Well, you're of the creative type, aren't you?

I'd bet good money, a VoIP partner failed to deliver on the goods when the TC was launched.

Any solid reason to think that, and to explain why that VoIP app has not been released afterwards?
Surely a VoIP app could be used on different ways; as you surely know, there are some standards. If some partner failed to deliver, surely some other would be interested to fill the gap. Don't you think so?

Meanwhile, I'd keep that "monoaural flaw" thing. After all, you talked not long ago about PocketPCs and their "hard disk emulation flaw", didn't you?

The newer 802.11g has a good packet priority for streaming media

Huh?? "Packet priority for streaming media" on 802.11g? I guess you're referring to the QoS enhancements on 802.11e...

that will allow this to happen without pops and clicks. Unfortunately, lower power versions of these chips are just starting to sample now.

So, even if low power 802.11e chipsets were appearing now (and I guess they aren't), what would that have to do with the subject at hand? (you know, the monoaural flaw of the T-C)

My guess is that PalmOne was stuck with a 2.5 mm connector in the case and no VoIP client to really exploit it. Thus, it was simply rebranded "monoaural"
and left that.

So, customers, stop saying "the T-C is monoaural"; it's in fact a powerful VoIP device! (pity it's crippled, so to the untrained eye and underanged imagination it can look like a monoaural PDA)

Still, I wonder how (supposed) VoIP functionality would justify the lack of stereo audio... To me, usefulness of stereo audio is kind of evident, but (supposed) VoIP looks a bit more like a niche.

Well, live to learn. To learn from the Rhino, that is.

Winter, I must have gotten under your skin hard to get you like this.

As a matter of fact, yes, you have. I have this tendency to get uneasy with people that publish their opinions / beliefs as facts and, when "challenged" to back their claims, they can only appeal to authority - being authority themselves, of course (and of course an uncertifiable authority). At the very least they typically claim some secret and personal info source.

It's even funnier when said people demonstrate that they're less than proficient with the things they're talking about. Like when they unprovokedly talk about QoS on 802.11g (wrong!), or laugh about TSRs on PocketPCs while defending Palm OS (wrong!). Still, they claim they're industry insiders, and / or "professionals" in charge of lots of things, and (still better) that allows them to say funnies like "everybody else is a loser". Wow.

I just got a private email and I can tell you that my guess was right.

See what was I talking about?

Well, let's believe that you have some private info source. Would you please ask him/her how stereo audio hardware would be supposed to interfere with VoIP capabilities?
And why there is no Palm branded VoIP software (as you hinted) now anyway? Do you mean that there is anything in the hardware stopping it?
The T3 seems to be capable of duplex audio (you surely know what is that, huh?). It should be perfectly useable for VoIP, don't you think so? (if Bluetooth bandwidth / latency allows). We only need the software. So, if there was some Palm-branded VoIP software for the T-C, why not release it for every VoIP-capable Palm?

The Zaurus does have VoIP software (by third parties). Do you mean that its hardware was specially designed for that?

I'd bet that any Linux PDA is able to use some kind of VoIP (as there are some options for Linux). You only need sound in, sound out, network connection and a beefy enough processor - and surely not that beefy in fact.

Finally, not even the form factor of the audio jack looks like an excuse, since some PocketPCs sport a single 3.5mm jack with stereo audio AND mic.

So, PLEASE: what's the relationship you're trying to make between the monoaural audio on the T-C and its VoIP capabilities?

Oh, and your guess is wrong. :D

Winter, the major flaw you have is using your immense technical ability way too much into making a product work and then assuming everyone else can do the same.

While all of your technical arguments are correct, the problem is none of that stuff sells outside the hacker/geek/scifi-convention/computer/newsgroup/dungeons-&-dragon /desperately-needs-to-get-laid community. In marketing demographics, you and your like is called the "freaks and geeks" crowd. It represents less then 10% of all consumer electronic sales and sadly, 90% of most Internet newsgroup posts.

To the retail crowd, a 3.5 mm connector is for stereo headsets. The 2.5 mm connector is for cell phones. That is how the market has shaken it out wether you like it or not.

Thus, you see a PDA with a 2.5 mm connector, it says cell phone and thus voice over IP to the mass market. If you try to push a PDA with a 3.5 mm connector and say it is voice over IP, most of the market will go "I can't plug my headset into it." and they won't buy it.

Dumb? Well there are people out there with lives that are not into finguring out ever piece of technology out there to impress the turbo geeks. Some us like times on the beach, going clubbing and other social activities.

In summary, take your hacks, your OS patchs and custom cables and try to sell it where you can justify your hardware tool up. Guess what? You can't! Welcome to some of the real world.

>I'm sorry, but I can only say that it's SUCH A LAME,
> STUPID EXCUSE.

Go into any retail consumer store and talk to the half trained sales guy. He will go "cell phone connector" and "stereo connector" and only go by its size to make a quick sales decision. Lame? That is your opintion. However, that perception I stated makes more sales than anything techies like you can do.

I will say it again, you spend way too much time with the technology around you and not around most people who are using it. The end users of consumer PDAs are barely using this stuff to all their features. They also have no desire to dive into it.

This is why the low end Zires are the best selling Palm OS products of all time. While the turbo geeks bitch that buttons are missing to play games (if you want to talk about lame, that is) it has sold in the millions. Not to mention first time Zire owners are more fun dates than most people that post here.

Every product line has their hardcore users. However, they are always a minority that unfortunately don't have much money most of the time to back up their big mouth. Why they don't have the cash? Well that is a deep question you need to ask yourself. You many not like the answer if you can confront it at all.

To state it again:

2.5 mm = cell phone connector (two way)
3.5 mm = stereo headset connector (one way)

Yes there are technical exceptions but that is how the public makes product purchase decisions right now.

>And knowing that some PocketPCs offer 3.5mm jacks
>with stereo+mic make the T-C's jack still dumber.

In fact, that 3.5mm jack is one problem with the PPC that is hurting its sales. Putting that into a device makes it a bad mass market item for VoIP. In fact, the PPC is selling so poorly, they are moving their connector and packaging decisions to the "freaks and geeks" crowd hoping it will move mainstream like it did with PCs. This model has shown not to work in the consumer electronics field to due the lack of product usage time.

>
>As a side note, since you admit that my technical
>arguments are all correct, would you please ask your
>private info source (that one that confirmed your
>guess) to elaborate on those early VoIP issues that
>didn't work out when the hardware was too far along in
>manufacturing? Because it sounds quite bullsh1ttish,
>you know.

I keep on wondering why I keep on arguing with you. I've come to the conclusion that some of the most inflexable, single minded types in this industry are often the indie developers themselves that are sitting on a cash cow that are unwilling to change. Worst, they embrase this technical diversity so they are needed to sort out problems created buy a lack of evident functionality of a product by a consumer.

If anything Winter, you have become almost the difinitive hardcore techie that cannot effectively communicate to the masses cause you are so immersed in technology. Do you use it to hide from something?

I honestly think I hit on something of yourself that you can't deal with and now you are going after me irrationaly. Shame. Please, don't kill the messenger and have fun with your Magic Cards.

Rhino, I find amusing that the amount of psychoanalyzing you use is inversely proportional to the quantity and quality of your explanations. You know, seems to me that when you feel unwatched, you feel free to verbosely invent whatever; but when asked to elaborate, you go into "I'm right and you have mental/social/monetary problems" mode. Damn funny!

(almost as funny as watching you daring to talk about "big mouthed" guys. Oh man.)

I'm still waiting for that info about the early issues on manufacturing. Or did your private info source suddenly go silent? Does he only talk to confirm your guesses?
Let's see. Are you sure "it" mailed you? Or perhaps it was rather like some incorporeal, hushed voice that sounded like, oh I don't know, coming from inside your head?

The end users of consumer PDAs are barely using this stuff to all their features. They also have no desire to dive into it.

That would perhaps apply to Zire buyers. But someone paying for THE WiFi enabled Palm PDA, which is NOT the cheapest Palm PDA, surely knows WHY s/he is buying exactly that PDA. Or do you mean that people buys the T-C unknowingly?

"Hey honey, I'll be back in a minute. I feel the urge to buy something smallish, electronic, expensive and with a capital C on its name. Do you need something from the groceries while I'm at it?"

Now try to explain that someone that cares to buy a WiFi enabled PDA only wants mono audio on 2.5mm jacks.
You want us to believe that Palm was *forced* to use mono audio?
What will you say if PalmOne brings out some device allowing stereo out + mic in? Will you then say that PocketPCs not allowing for that are stupid designs?
C'mon, man, you're so absurd.

Cbowers, it was Rhino who said that he is sure there is a VoIP client app on a hard disk somewhere unreleased inside PalmOne. Interesting, isn't it? And apparently his "private source" said he was right.
(And then, it's us non-Rhino-believers who are lame... Wow man)

I know VLI's GPhone. That's why I was hoping that the Rhino would share with us the info on those early issues on manufacturing (oh, the bullsh1t) that "prevented" VoIP on the T-C... and would somehow justify the dumb connector - or, more accurately, would justify the dumb monoaural audio. Well, looks like I'll have to wait some more.

I just won't hold my breath. Heh.