Palm Treo 650 Update 1.04 for Verizon

Palm has released the Treo 650 updater 1.04 for Verizon wireless customers. The update includes optimized nvfs memory handling and an improved user interface for multiple call scenarios.

New with version 1.04:

  • Optimized memory handling with non-volatile file system improvements
  • Improved user interface for multiple call scenarios

Also included from the previous version 1.03 (released July 2005):

  • Latest version of Wireless Sync email application software
  • Internal settings modification to allow correct access to Verizon Wireless roaming partner networks

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How is it?

hkklife @ 10/4/2005 3:33:55 PM # Q
Gekko/Cap'n Hair/non-apologists;

PLEASE install this update and get back to us ASAP on what (if anything) it fixes or improves in the real--world user experience. Continued refinement of the Treo--even under FrankenGarnet--is key to the continued viability of the POS Treo line!



RE: How is it?
Gekko @ 10/4/2005 6:01:35 PM # Q

If it ain't broke...

Reply to this comment

Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?

jchattin @ 10/4/2005 3:48:01 PM # Q

I love palm. My last one was a 505 and it worked flawlesly. I read this forum often, and decided it was time to post. I am not here to troll - just to get some help or advice.

I waited with baited breath for the 650 to reach verizon. Now that I have one, I find that OS 5 leaves much to be desired.

I have never, NEVER had such problems with a device before as I am having with my 650. I am not using anything unusual or risky. Except for RescoExplorer and RescoViewer, I am using all first-party standard palm apps -- mostly because any attempts to run anything else on this POS makes it reset. And every reset clears the phone's minutes and KB counters - rendering them useles.
Palms brain-dead decision to go with this new NVFS system halves my usable memory, is less efficient on top of that, and corrupts my databases through the course of normal use. According to my online searches, the 650's tendency to randomly corrupt databases is "normal", and is due to the NVFS data manager.
All of my PIM db's -- My ContactsDB and CalendarDB, TasksDB, etc - all of them have been corrupted by the NVFS data manager in the treo, and the palm just reboots whenever anything tries to just look at these DB's. This includes hotsync. I hotsync and backup to my card often. But the backups on my card are corrupted, and I can't hotsync anymore. I think I see why palm is dumping PalmOS. It has grown into a buggy pile of junk. I am considering going back to my old phone and my 505. I shouldn't have to walk on egg shells every time I want to use the normal features of a device. I dumped the PC for this reason, and I may have to dump the treo, too. It's just plain depressing.

Does anyone know if this update fixes any of this?

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/4/2005 4:31:20 PM # Q
I have a Cingular Branded 650 and I have found that most, if not all problems are related to one of two issues. (1) programs that are not written/updated for NVFS and (2) the NVFS cache not flushing when it needs too. The first problem is much more insidious and often results in frequent resets and data loss. The second problem is a cummulative one that may cause a reset every few days and with some folks once a day.

Here are my suggestions for your specific problem. Download the most current version of dbScan from Pimlico Software and install it on your Treo. What you describe sounds like a corrupt entry in you PIM apps. This probably occurred during your upgrade (did you perform a desktop overwrites handheld for the PIM dbs? this might solve the problem on its own). dbScan should ID any corrupt entries and try to fix the problem.

As an additional measure, I suggest that you download the program, PalmInternals, and install it to your Treo. When you launch PalmInternals a warning will popup, tap "No". On the next screen, at the bottom there will be two buttons - "Alarm" and "Notif.", tap "Notif." A list will be generated, once the list is complete, scroll and scan it, if you read any entries that have m68k in them these programs have not been updated for NVFS and are causing problems. Identify these programs, and either remove them altogether or download RescoLocker and lock these programs into memory. I am able to use ClipPro with this technique without it generating any crashes.

Hope this helps.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/4/2005 4:57:36 PM # Q

Thanks for your reply Ronin. I've tried dbScan's "Remove all deleted records". It finds and removes about 1 entry per PIM DB, but then when I exit dbScan, my treo resets, and the DB's still cause the internal hotsync prc to crash - even if the hotsync is canceled. I even tried it without being connected to my computer - if I tap the hotsync button, it asks if I want to turn on bluetooth. If I accept or decline, I get a soft reset. It seems that anytime the HotSync prc tries to return to its main screen, my device resets.

Thanks for the tip about palm internalsand RescoLocker. I'll give 'em a shot.

-Josh

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
nrosser @ 10/4/2005 5:55:19 PM # Q
One question - surely when you got the 650, you didn't sync to the same user name/profile as from your 515? Hopefully you didn't - there are all sorts of warnings & instructions to NOT have any of the old files from the /username/backup folder on the old device come over to the new one.
Just curious about that....

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/4/2005 6:15:21 PM # Q
It appears that you have identified the problem so we are half way home. :)

Are you actually using the most current version of dbScan? CESD has updated it to work perfectly with the new PIM dbs (which aren't so new anymore). The current version can be found here: http://www.pimlicosoftware.com/utilities.htm

The behavior you describe sounds like you are using an older version of dbScan.

One other suggestion, if you try the "desktop overwrites handheld option" and the hotsync hangs, try deleting the PIM dbs with Filez or Resco Explorer, reset and repeat the hotsync. The handheld will automatically create new PIM dbs once you delete them.

One other note, if you have not updated your backup program, do so immediately, some of the old standby back programs do not restore the new PIM dbs properly.

Good luck.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
hkklife @ 10/4/2005 9:27:14 PM # Q
A few more questions for those that have installed the update (no, I don't trust anyone on 1src or Brighthand-just PIC & Treocentral)


1. Does the OS version change? eg FrankenGarnet 5.4.9 or so?

2. Any updates to Media, VersaMail, Blazer etc?

3. What % did your amount of available RAM increase, if any?

4. Any other misc. changes you've noticed

5. In layman's terms, what are the "multiple call scenarios"? Call waiting?

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Dr Opinion @ 10/4/2005 10:46:22 PM # Q
> "...(no, I don't trust anyone on 1src or Brighthand-just PIC & Treocentral)..."

Sycophantic nitwit. :)

> "...eg FrankenGarnet 5.4.9..."

Yes: the operating system changes to a name invented by professional micro$uck wince shills who troll on a palm site. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Gekko @ 10/4/2005 11:42:08 PM # Q

D.O. is a J.O.

Kirvin: go home.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/4/2005 11:51:39 PM # Q
> "...(no, I don't trust anyone on 1src or Brighthand-just PIC & Treocentral)..."

Sycophantic nitwit. :)

> "...eg FrankenGarnet 5.4.9..."

Yes: the operating system changes to a name invented by professional micro$uck wince shills who troll on a palm site. :)

Isn't it odd that Kirvin has no problem coming around here acting like an a-hole, but turns around and bans everyone at the sites he moderates that has the temerity to expose him to be an ignorant fraud?

You're one of the sleaziest hypocrites in the Palm community, Kirvin. You need to stay on your own sites (like 1src.com) that are populated with other dullards and children that agree with everything you say - no matter how absurd it may be.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
hkklife @ 10/5/2005 1:48:52 AM # Q
Look, I want someone to report the REAL NITTY GRITTY and pull no punches when doing so. If the new Treo update borks peoples' Treos then I want to hear about it so I can encourage colleagues who own one to avoid the update etc (yes, I have to keep them abreast of updates for devices I do not even own).

I simply cannot trust a site that's in Palm's pocket for advertising/linkage revenue and/or a site where differing opinions are squashed.

Gekko is about as far from a M$ employee as you are going to find. He is, like myself, someone not involved in the mobile tech industry who just happens to like gadgets, especially those of the POS variety.

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
neuronimus @ 10/5/2005 8:47:50 AM # Q
Just a warning for Verizon Treo 650 users and this 1.04 update. I installed it per the instructions last night and now my phone doesn't work. After 2 attempts my version remained at 1.03. I noticed a new app appeared called CDMA Updater and I ran that. Either this or the initial update erased some of my phone parameters and now the phone doesn't work. Everytime I try to turn on the phone it just resets the Treo. In the phone info window my name, phone number, ESN, and other parameters have been erased. Perhaps it was partly my fault for running the CDMA updater that the Treo updater installed, but when running the Treo updater alone didn't update it I thought it seemed reasonable to run this other updater the software installed. Well it's down to the Verizon store today to get it fixed. Beware!

I share the experience posted above that the Treo 650 has been much more troublesome than prior models of which I have had several. I have had a heck of a time with corrupted CalendarDB and multiple resets.

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
hkklife @ 10/5/2005 9:35:47 AM # Q
Thanks for the warning/update. Sorry to hear about your troubles but your efforts did not go in vain! Now I need to help spread the word...


RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/5/2005 10:39:24 AM # Q
Neuronimus,

if I am not mistaken, your phone parameters can not be permanently deleted. For example, if you performed a hard reset of your Treo and erased all of your data and parameters, the phone parameters/network parameters would be restored just as the PIM dbs are restored (albeit with the default data).

That being said, your phone is almost certainly not fried. As long as you can get the thing to boot you can run the updater or run one of the prior ROM updates to fix an update gone bad. I strongly recommend that you run the updater again. If you did not do so the first time, hard reset your Treo, run the updater from the desktop under a hotsync name specifically created for this update once done, perform another hard reset, and then either restore your data from a backup on your memory card or perform a hotsync to restore from the desktop. Don't forget to delete the hotsync name that you created just for the update. Before performing the restore, you might want to run the phone a little to make sure it is working properly.

If you still can not get this update to run properly I suggest two things (1) download it again, the file itself may have been corrupted; (2) run the prior Verizon update, if you did not save it on your computer, odds are strong that someone at TreoCentral has already posted a link to a site that is hosting it.

BTW, there are already several posts at TreoCentral regarding successful application of this update and the changes included.

Good luck and I Hope this helps.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Voice of Dumbness is a Microsoft Shill
Dr Opinion @ 10/5/2005 12:42:22 PM # Q
> "...Isn't it odd that Kirvin has no problem coming around here acting like an a-hole, but turns around and bans everyone at the sites he moderates..."

Oh, I get it. You've confused me with some random guy who runs another site. Well, I never said you weren't stupid. It's got to be *really* frustrating to be challenged like this, but be unable to respond with ad hominem attacks. Makes me smile. :D

I'm just a concerned citizen. A long-time palm owner. A frequent visitor over the years.

Palm Infocenter has always been my favorite palm site, and I just got fed up with seeing you professional shills trolling every freaking great new thing to come out of the Palm Economy for the last few years. See, I understand how micro$uck goes about things. I know you guys are on the payroll. You might say I've had an inside track on some of those naughty little secrets.

And I kinda understand why Ryan tolerates you guys. See, the market is efficient, right? When your lies, shilling, FUD, and general unpleasantness reaches a certain level of obscenity regular people just won't tolerate it any more. You were hoping that this would drive people away. Instead, things get equalized. Ryan doesn't need to ban you. The Palm community can take care of your rubbish.

So, you're feeling the heat, huh? :)

You'll feel it worse when wince gets dropped within 18 months for an XP-derivative on mobile hardware. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. :)

And I guess I should look up this Kirvin character. Since he's apparently worked out what you're all about, it sounds like he might be a pretty cool guy. :D

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
sr4 @ 10/5/2005 12:53:25 PM # Q
And I guess I should look up this Kirvin character. Since he's apparently worked out what you're all about, it sounds like he might be a pretty cool guy. :D

I'll save you the trouble.

kirvin v
To constantly flip-flop and change your opinion due to trying to keep up with the latest manoeuvering of a cause you unconditionally support and apologize for, constantly being wrong.
e.g.
He is kirvin again on the reasons for invading Iraq.
or
He's kirvin again on whether PalmOS is dead or not.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kirvin

Surur

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Dr Opinion @ 10/5/2005 1:21:04 PM # Q
> "...Look up..."

Like, in the dictionary. I get it.

That's pretty funny, actually, Surur.

Not really like you. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/5/2005 1:53:50 PM # Q

I did the update last night, and it went without a hitch, so I guess I'll count myself lucky. Also, when I got the treo, I didn't transfer my data via a sync - I couldn't because my m505 hadn't been able to perform a hotsync for about 1 year due to the static discharge problem, so I'd been doing manual backups to my card, and then backing those files up by copying them onto my PC. Also, I'd just become the proud owner of a new Powerbook, and hadn't needed to turn my PC on since then. So instead of doing a hotsync, I just beamed the pim data over from my 505 into the treo's newly created databases, trusting that the treo would convert the data into whatever new internal format it was using. This worked great.
Anyway, things are working now. I had to do a lot of manual file moving, but I did get the new dbScan, and it worked without causing a reset this time. Then my hotsync worked without causing a reset. That was the first time in 2 days that my existing ContactsDB synced w/out causing my treo to reset. So, things seem ok for now.
I haven't had a chance to try the multiple calls screen yet. Also, I may be imagining it, but RescoExplorer navigation feels snappier since the update. I cant comment on increased space since I manualy rebuilt my internal memory one file at a time last night, and so I a missing some of the autogenerated DB plaq that builds up from program use.
I remain cautiously optimistic - however I still wonder what voodo damaged my DB to begin with. Maybe this update will qietly fix that. Thanks again for the help.

-Josh

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/5/2005 3:01:23 PM # Q
Glad this worked out for you.

Without a doubt, the manner in which you transferred the information caused the data corruption. The smooth transfer of information that we had been able to do with past Palms is not feasible with NVFS Palms not to mention the new extended PIM dbs. Some might call this Palms stupdity, I think of it more along the lines of Palm actually moving the platform forward and not being able to preserve full compatibility. In a very real way NVFS is a real shift in the platform and my experience has been that there are few, if any tech companies that manage to maintain full backward compatibility while incorporating new technologies.

BTW, as it is clear that you depend greatly on your backup software, I feel compelled to remind you to upgrade your card backup program. The one you used on your 505 will simply not work properly on the Treo. Check to see if your software has been updated. When I upgraded from my T3, I was using BackupMan which, IMHO, has not made the transition to NVFS very well and has proven unreliable. BackUpBuddy works well and I can also highly recommend Resco Backup which I am currently using and has been rock solid.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/5/2005 3:19:40 PM # Q
You mean its not even safe to transfer data from an old palm to a new one via infrared? Doesn't this break the whole "common IrDA format" philosophy? (I used IrDA to transfer my PIMS - I didn't use my backup software to do that.)
Anyway, I used McFile's backup function on my m505. When I got my treo, I bought the latest version of RescoExplorer and started a new set of backups using its built in backup/restore tools. (They work great - I would reccommend them to anyone.) I've not mixed and matched files from these old and new backup sets. The only transfer I did from my old palm to my new was the basic PIM data via IrDA. Everything else on my treo either came with it or was very recently purchased for it.


RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/5/2005 4:57:26 PM # Q
The problem is not with the IrDA but with the "datamanager patch" which some call the "datamangler patch" that Palm developed to provide compatibility with the old PIM dbs for programs that access the PIM data but are expecting the old dbs. To be charitable, it is buggy.

Say you transferred the old Address PIM db from the old Palm to the new Treo or beam the All category from within the program. The larger the number of entries the more likely that it will corrupt something as each entry has to go thru the patch. On the other hand, if you sync the information from the desktop it does not pass thru the patch and the likelihood of corruption is minimal. On the Treo there is a db named addressdb.pdb but it is a dummy db, the data is all read from the contacts-padd.pdb. The same is true for the other PIM dbs.

BTW, you guys who rely solely on unscheduled backups are better men then I am.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
neuronimus @ 10/5/2005 7:26:00 PM # Q
Just an update for those interested (see above). I took my phone into Verizon today and the Tech support person said my phone was "fried." I had to call their Wireless Data Technical Support line to get a new phone. They walked me through some hard resets and also concluded the phone component of the Treo 650 was "bad" and they are now sending me a replacement. This could have been purely coincidental.

For those interested I was using the Mac version of the updater. I also tried redownloading the updater and running it again to no avail.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/6/2005 12:18:50 PM # Q
Ah, now I understand. Well, all and all this has been educational. Insofar as unscheduled backups, I got into the habbit of card backups when my USB ID number got scrambled on my m505, and I couldn't hotsync anymore. Now I do both card backups and hotsync. Since the card is always in my device, the backups are available wherever I am, and this has saved my bacon a couple of times with the 650.

-Josh


RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/6/2005 12:27:22 PM # Q
Ronin, I just wanted to clarify my earlierdeclaration of palms stupidity in their implementation of NVFS (which I admit, was made in the midst of my treo woes.)

You wrote:
--------
The smooth transfer of information that we had been able to do
with past Palms is not feasible with NVFS Palms not to mention the new extended PIM dbs. Some might call this Palms stupdity, I think of it more along the lines of Palm actually moving the platform forward and not being able to preserve full compatibility. In a very real way NVFS is a real shift in the platform and my experience has been that there are few, if any tech companies that manage to maintain full backward compatibility while incorporating >new technologies.
--------

I am a software developer myself, with experience at each level of language abstraction (from assembly language, up through interpreted languages) I also have experience with solid state electronics.

My issue is not with the spirit behind the NVFS initiative - rather it is with palm's execution of it. I understand that they need to make money on their hardware, and that a 10mb window may have allowed them a more comfortable margin -- However I think they should have skipped this "best of neither world" design and continued with powered RAM until some of the new high speed non-volatile memory became available, as it is starting to do now.

The memory in the m5XX could last several weeks on its remaining power after the cutoff voltage. In the case of devices with removable batteries, this same strategy coupled with an internal capacitor or even a tiny internal LION cell to keep the RAM alive in the absence of a battery would work just fine, and would have allowed Palm to skip this generation of hardware - in which they have single handedly abolished their invaluable library of apps and alienated those developers who would have continued to write more. In addition to this, it has introduced instability, inneficiency and unreliablility that was inherently absent in their previous designs. This lost them the other advantage that they had over competitors - reliability. With all of this gone, what further benefit does palm have to offer over its competitors besides maybe form-factor? Certainly not affordability.

That is why I claim their move away from RIP to a segmented and half-baked NVFS implementation was "stupid".

-Josh



Finally some excellent commentary. Will Palm ever learn?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/6/2005 4:59:49 PM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8104#113376

My issue is not with the spirit behind the NVFS initiative - rather it is with palm's execution of it. I understand that they need to make money on their hardware, and that a 10mb window may have allowed them a more comfortable margin -- However I think they should have skipped this "best of neither world" design and continued with powered RAM until some of the new high speed non-volatile memory became available, as it is starting to do now.

The memory in the m5XX could last several weeks on its remaining power after the cutoff voltage. In the case of devices with removable batteries, this same strategy coupled with an internal capacitor or even a tiny internal LION cell to keep the RAM alive in the absence of a battery would work just fine, and would have allowed Palm to skip this generation of hardware - in which they have single handedly abolished their invaluable library of apps and alienated those developers who would have continued to write more. In addition to this, it has introduced instability, inneficiency and unreliablility that was inherently absent in their previous designs. This lost them the other advantage that they had over competitors - reliability. With all of this gone, what further benefit does palm have to offer over its competitors besides maybe form-factor? Certainly not affordability.

That is why I claim their move away from RIP to a segmented and half-baked NVFS implementation was "stupid".


Well said. Someone should email your post to every executive in Palm and PalmSource. Maybe then they would finally understand that they're destroying the platform. And once developers leave, they won't be coming back.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/6/2005 10:35:12 PM # Q
jchattin, I do not disagree with your conclusion.

My observation is that the PalmOS has placed itself in an unbelievably bad situation which it is not likely to recover from. And that statement may well be optimistic, we may actually be watching its death throws. However, I will say this, following Palm and this community for years, I know that they were vociferiously criticized for playing it safe, for not advancing the platform. Palm's counterpoint was always - our strength is in our software library, or simplicity and our unwillingness to be on the bleeding edge. Palm simply would not incorporate a technology into a Palm device until it was proven and reliable (at least to them). Color screens and expansion are two stand out examples. In contrast, the PPC platform went thru years of relative instability and the folding in of technology that was not quite ready and reliable. PPCs had color screens but they eat up battery power, PPCs had expansion but it was unreliable and problematic in its implementation. And lets not forget the many complaints of the PPC development community during the years of multiple processor types in the devices. Note as well, that one of the criticisms of Sony when they were a Palm licensee was that they would break compatibility for the sake of new features and differentiation.

It seems that because of the years of mismanagement, bad decisions and loss of momentum and market forces, Palm has been forced to abandon the notion of 'safety' (or Zen of Palm) and has started to fold into the platform software and hardware additions that are not quite ready. The PalmOS should have been updated at a core level years ago and done incrementally so that developers could progressively transition with the platform. Instead we Palm users have to endure difficult and length transformation of the PalmOS into whatever it is going to be next.

For, example, the notion that a licensee had to patch/extend the core PIM dbs to allow more fields and greater compatibility with Outlook is mind-boggling.

Regarding, the 'early' incorporation of "persistent memory" in Palm devices, I would certainly have wished the implementation had been better, I do wish that they had waited until the issues with the RAM technology had been resolved but I also think Palm did not really have this luxury any more, they are behind and need to distinguish their devices and one way for a tech company to do this is too be the first. The first device with non-volatile RAM, the first device with a hard drive (in N. America). And often being first is a problematic, the Palm of old repeated this like a mantra (and was criticized for following this philosophy almost religiously). The Palm of old would have been one year behind PPC (or WinMob, nowadays) with "persistent memory" if we were lucky, instead of the reverse situation that we have today.

BTW, TVoR, I agree that once developers leave they will not be coming back. I frequent the PimlicoSoftware user group and when a developer like CESD starts to express frequent frustration with the PalmOS it is cause to worry. On the other hand, I have noticed that the Treo with its connectivity has opened up a whole new area of Palm software and this is were all the activity and enthusiasm is these days.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

Is PalmOS dead?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/7/2005 1:33:13 AM # Q
As a major OS, PalmOS probably is dead. No doubt PalmOS will remain with us for years to come, but will be margainalized to "fringe OS" status, much like MacOS was in the desktop world.

My observation is that the PalmOS has placed itself in an unbelievably bad situation which it is not likely to recover from. And that statement may well be optimistic, we may actually be watching its death throws.

I expect the death will be a very slow decline. First slipping into senility (already happening?) followed by several years in a coma, kept alive on life support and the goodwill of a once-vibrant PalmOS community. See Netscape, BeOS, WordPerfect, MacOS, OS/2 for examples. Ultimately, whoever owns PalmOS will try to cash in by following the examples of several of the owners of the above failed products by suing Microsoft and claiming that "Evil" Bill Gates somehow perpetrated a dastardly crime that put them out of business. I expect Palm/PalmSource's past 5 years of self-destructive behaviour will naturally be omitted from the lawsuit...

However, I will say this, following Palm and this community for years, I know that they were vociferiously criticized for playing it safe, for not advancing the platform.

And guess who's been front and center with the criticisms? All for naught. If you only realized how cynical Palm's execs have been over the years, you'd realize that the complaining was all a waste of time. Palm execs have no shame. And their greed has no limits.

Palm's counterpoint was always - our strength is in our software library, or simplicity and our unwillingness to be on the bleeding edge.

Actually, the "Zen of Palm" was a pile of B.S. Palm cooked up simply to justify why they were charging steak prices for hamburger equipment. Profit margins on models like the Palm Vx were truly criminal, to put it mildly.

Palm simply would not incorporate a technology into a Palm device until it was proven and reliable (at least to them).

No, Palm delayed incorporating new technology because:
a) new technology is more expensive
b) new technology requires some effort to develop it
c) they were getting away with selling cheap old technology at the prices that competitors were selling actual new technology
d) they thought they could somehow keep selling cheap old technology forever as long as it had a "Palm" name on it and they kept spinning it properly with the "Zen of Palm" B.S.

Color screens and expansion are two stand out examples. In contrast, the PPC platform went thru years of relative instability and the folding in of technology that was not quite ready and reliable.

The technology was fine. It was the PPC OS that was the problem.

PPCs had color screens but they eat up battery power,

Color screens burning up battery life is not a problem unique to PPC. Even "modern" PalmOS devices like the Tungsten T lineup have short battery life. It's taken advances in processors and batteries/packaging to create PDAs (like the CLIE TH55) that FINALLY have a battery life that doesn't force users to make major compromises in usage patterns. Old monochrome Palms could last 20 - 30 hours on a pair of AAA batteries. In those days Palm mocked color Win CE models that could only last 2 or 3 hours. It was funny to see Palm suddenly stop boasting about battery life when it started putting out color PDAs that also only lasted 3 hours per charge. The TH55's 15 hour battery life has yet to be (and probably never will be) topped by anything out of Palm. (Too bad an OLED-screened version of the TH55 was never released...)

PPCs had expansion but it was unreliable and problematic in its implementation.

Again, OS problem - not hardware problem.

And lets not forget the many complaints of the PPC development community during the years of multiple processor types in the devices.

Lack of standardization in PPC CPUs is not a good excuse for Palm's failure to move beyond 16 - 33 MHz Dragonball processors until 2002!

Note as well, that one of the criticisms of Sony when they were a Palm licensee was that they would break compatibility for the sake of new features and differentiation.

Sony's (and TRG's and Handspring's) actions were purely out of necessity, because they wanted to push the envelope and Palm was too lazy/incompetent to advance PalmOS. In fact, Palm's contracts with its licensees stipulated that any advances that licensees came up with would be given back to Palm to use as it wished. Palm was basically using licensees like Sony, Handspring, TRG/HandEra, etc to do the dirty work (development) for Palm at no charge! Palm went from being a lean, creative company to a fat, lazy parasite that took advantage of licensees and customers alike.

It seems that because of the years of mismanagement, bad decisions and loss of momentum and market forces, Palm has been forced to abandon the notion of 'safety' (or Zen of Palm) and has started to fold into the platform software and hardware additions that are not quite ready.

No, Palm added features only when they could no longer keep pushing that "Zen of Palm" B.S. with a straight face. $400 monochrome 20 MHz PDAs with just 8 MB RAM? 33 MHz Dragonball CPU and just 8 MB RAM in 2002? W T F??? Get serious Palm. It's amazing that so many people have continued to bend over and let Palm have its way with their tender regions over the years...

The PalmOS should have been updated at a core level years ago and done incrementally so that developers could progressively transition with the platform. Instead we Palm users have to endure difficult and length transformation of the PalmOS into whatever it is going to be next.

No, Palm should have just listened to those of us who said (in 2001) that they should bite the bullet like Apple did + develop PalmLinux. A number of Palm engineers tried to convince the decision makers to go that route but were overruled by the dumba$$ majority. Instead, we got the tragedy known as Cobalt - which has now cost PalmSource most of its licensees and most of its marketshare. PalmLinux would have broken a lot of legacy apps, but developers would have adapted, attracted by the lure of a massive, expanding market for their apps.

For, example, the notion that a licensee had to patch/extend the core PIM dbs to allow more fields and greater compatibility with Outlook is mind-boggling.

Again, Palm/PalmSource had been a fat, lazy parasite for so long that their engineering muscles had atrophied. They simply lacked the ability (and the will) to advance the OS. And when they did, the disaster known as the Data Mangler patch was born. That Palm would arrogantly blow off developers after it's butchery of PalmOS broke all their apps illustrates the contempt Palm actually has for the so-called "Palm eCONomy".

Regarding, the 'early' incorporation of "persistent memory" in Palm devices, I would certainly have wished the implementation had been better, I do wish that they had waited until the issues with the RAM technology had been resolved but I also think Palm did not really have this luxury any more, they are behind and need to distinguish their devices and one way for a tech company to do this is too be the first. The first device with non-volatile RAM, the first device with a hard drive (in N. America). And often being first is a problematic, the Palm of old repeated this like a mantra (and was criticized for following this philosophy almost religiously). The Palm of old would have been one year behind PPC (or WinMob, nowadays) with "persistent memory" if we were lucky, instead of the reverse situation that we have today.

NVRAM was a gimmick that Palm expected would save them money. Period. Palm is so focused on nickel and diming customers on the hardware that they don't realize they're throwing away a lot more money due to damaged reputation, lost developers, negative press, pi$$ed off longtime users, high returns, and loss of momentum + marketshare. 20 MB useable RAM on a $600 smartphone??? W T F???

BTW, TVoR, I agree that once developers leave they will not be coming back. I frequent the PimlicoSoftware user group and when a developer like CESD starts to express frequent frustration with the PalmOS it is cause to worry. On the other hand, I have noticed that the Treo with its connectivity has opened up a whole new area of Palm software and this is were all the activity and enthusiasm is these days.

I have more respect for CES Dewar than any other PalmOS developer. In fact, for years DateBk has been a major reason why I stayed with PalmOS. To pi$$ off a class act like CESD takes a lot of doing. Having seen firsthand how Palm/PalmSource have treated developers, I won't be surprised when they start dumoping PalmOS in favor of Windows Mobile en masse over the next 6 - 12 months.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8106#113218


How long will the Treo manage to keep PalmOS afloat? Right now, all the PalmOS eggs have been thrown into the Treo basket. As soon as Windows Mobile devices copy the PalmOS Treo + undercut the price, the party's over. Thanks to wasting the past 4 years on Cobalt, time has now run out for PalmOS. Time to pay the piper.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 3:06:08 AM # Q
> "...For, example, the notion that a licensee had to patch/extend the core PIM dbs to allow more fields and greater compatibility with Outlook is mind-boggling..."

This is just silly. Why should the Palm OS natively support Outlook, a competing email client and calendar program? Plenty of third pary programs support Outlook, for example, if you work for a corporate where the MSCEs have forced users to use this buggy and unstable mail client.

Why on earth should the Palm OS support it??? Outlook is *horrible*. It is difficult to find ANY outlook user who hasn't permanently lost gigs of valuable data due to Outlook corruption issues. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

More brilliant commentary from Mr. Kirvin...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/7/2005 4:44:20 AM # Q
This is just silly. Why should the Palm OS natively support Outlook, a competing email client and calendar program? Plenty of third pary programs support Outlook, for example, if you work for a corporate where the MSCEs have forced users to use this buggy and unstable mail client.

Why on earth should the Palm OS support it??? Outlook is *horrible*. It is difficult to find ANY outlook user who hasn't permanently lost gigs of valuable data due to Outlook corruption issues. :)

Why should a PDA OS (designed to synchronize PIM data with users' desktops) support the de facto standard desktop PIM program? Hmmmmmm...


Kirvin you are truly a genius. No wonder PalmSource offered you an interview for a position with them. With you obvious intellect, you would have fit in perfectly with the rest of the PalmSource rocket scientists (like the late Marty Fouts).


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/7/2005 9:50:31 AM # Q
Dr. Opinion said:
"This is just silly. Why should the Palm OS natively support Outlook, a competing email client and calendar program? Plenty of third pary programs support Outlook, for example, if you work for a corporate where the MSCEs have forced users to use this buggy and unstable mail client.

Why on earth should the Palm OS support it??? Outlook is *horrible*. It is difficult to find ANY outlook user who hasn't permanently lost gigs of valuable data due to Outlook corruption issues. :)"

I am going to assume that the smiley at the end of this was meant to imply that this is said tongue in cheek. Outlook is the defecto standard whether you like it our not. Besides, Outlook 2003 is a pretty decent piece of kit (its not ECCO but that piece of software went the way of the dinosaur).

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
hkklife @ 10/7/2005 10:35:15 AM # Q
I agree with the Voice's position on Palm nickel & diming the hardware. Yes, I understand the economies of scale. But really, REALLY, how can they possibly save that much by choosing to omit a charging LED (LEDs are practically FREE nowdays, especially the green variety) or a , what, three cent microphone? I know that there are tooling costs to consider etc. but you'd think that by simply rearranging the top panel of the T5 they could accomodate both an LED and a mic without changing the rest of the body.

And, really, ~20mb free on a Treo 650? It was simply inexcusable to ship the 650 without 64mb of RAM. The difference between 32mb and 64mb on Palm devices is GIGANTIC. I'd wager that 40mb of storage is "enough" for all but the super-hardcore (or super-ignorant) Palm users. So...give us 64mb with a decent sized heap and we'll be ok. 128mb is still something of a luxury in the POS world but 64mb is CRITICAL.

So, Palm, how are those Treo 650 sales going to fare next to the <$100 Zire 22 (also packing 32mb)?

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/7/2005 2:54:53 PM # Q

Even if it was abused / used as an excuse at times, there is good merrit to the advertized design philosophy behind "zen of palm". It is said that "the simplest solution is almost always the right solution." If you have a solution that - at the end of the day - performs the same function as a more complicated solution, you have found engineering gold. I always prefer to solve a problem by not having to solve it. Rather, I first try to avoid the design that gave rise to it in the first place. Elegance, reliability, managability, efficiency, simplicity, and flexibility / extendability are not mutualy exclusive. Indeed, finding one often means you've found the others.

Being first is often only good if you are the first with something that is a clear improvement over what came before. Considering the outward results of the recent internal changes to palm's hardware, it has taken palm backwards in reliability and peace-of-mind for the end user to a time before the very first palm pilot. Never before have palms been so unreliable, complicated, confusing, and incompatable. Any small gains that these design changes do offer are very short term, and are drowned out by all the long term problems they bring with them. Having fixed, non-removable mass storage within this type of device is unnecesary given the intended normal uses. And it is certainly bad if it in any way degrades its day-to-day reliability and usability.

The palmpilot was not the first PDA - but it was the first PDA that got it right, and hence set the standard. In hindsight, what advantages did those other pda's have by being first? Palm realised that the device had to first and foremost be accesable and dependable. After all, it was competing with the reliability, accesability, and ease of use of pen and paper. Since it wasnt (and still isnt - and will be hard pressed to ever be) superior to pen and paper in those areas, it had to offer other advantages. Continuous and reliable acces to your information was crucial - as was a user interface that was invisible as possible. Above all, your data had to persist - and this meant backups. But the backups had to use up no brain power to deal with - hence the sync. Your data had to be available when you needed it - hence stability and long lasting power over color screens, backlights, and . Anyone who's enjoyed a game or flashy program can tell you that the enjoyment pales real quick when data is lost, or your call is droped. Why is that? Because it interferes with what the device is for.

Hard drives are not a permanent improvement that will benefit every device from here after. They are a complication to everything in the design of the device. They are also less reliable, fragile, slow, power hungry, not removable or swapable. They offer only marginal short term capacity gains over the superior removable solid state solutions (SD cards, etc) whose capacities march ever onward, and palm devices already support them. So you can store a few gigs of data in your palm today. You can do that with 2 removable 2 gig SD cards. And you can carry more than two if needed. The T5 also mystifies me. I've had a 512 mb SD card in my m505 for years. It can be removed, and used in my camera, my notebook, and placed into whatever new device that I upgrade to. In fact, it is now my "mass storage" in my treo. What am I to gain from a fixed internal 256mb that I can only access through a 10mb window -- which makes my device unstable, and incompatible with the programs and database that I have been using every day for the last 4 years? And now I have to deal with another half-integrated mode in my palm -- "drive mode"? Even devices that require mass internal storage have more than what their users need - A recent poll showed that the average iPod user carried at most 300 to 400 songs in their device. The iPod's drive was mostly unused. This is why ejecting the HD has paid such dividens in the design of the nano. Fully solid state. Integrated. Small. Less moving parts and things to break or fail. Easy to manufacture. Practical. Plenty of capacity for all but the elite power users.

Abused or not, it is precisely palms recent abandonment of "the zen of palm" or rather "the zen of correct and salient design" (the reasons why the pilot succeded) -- that is destroying them.


RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
sr4 @ 10/7/2005 3:07:15 PM # Q

Thats all fine and good, but Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough. While waiting for a technology to mature your competitor may be releasing a device with the next generation, building on their experience of the first failurelimited success. I assume LifeDrive 2 will be a whole lot better than LifeDrive 1.

Surur

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
hkklife @ 10/7/2005 3:36:16 PM # Q
Short of removing the wi-fi, voice recorder, charging LED and switching to an all-plastic body, HOW COULD the LD2 be any worse than the LD1?

It's the buggiest PDA. Ever.



RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
jchattin @ 10/7/2005 3:37:32 PM # Q
> Thats all fine and good, but Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough.
> While waiting for a technology to mature your competitor may be
> releasing a device with the next generation, building on their
> experience of the first failurelimited success.

True. But what competitor was it that scared palm into using a hard drive? By the time they decided to use an HD, solid state capacities were already sufficient for storing space hungry files such as music, pictures, and the like. My first SD card was 32 megs, and I had albums of JPEGS on it, home video clips, word (to go) docs, ebooks, and pdf's, along with non-essential prc's like games, etc - and room to spare for file transfers. When I moved to a 512MB SD and a device that could do audio, I added my mp3's. I just fail to see how the changes to the internal storage of these devices provide benefits that could even be considered "Good enough" compared to what already exists - especialy when considering the drawbacks. Palm has introduced changes to cater to fringe features which are secondary and used and relied upon (hence encountered) less often while cripling the core features and functionality that get used multiple times a day; And they have done so for gains that were not needed, and technologicaly moot. This isn't even in the realm of good enough - it is a step backwards.



RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 4:12:30 PM # Q
> "...I am going to assume that the smiley at the end of this was meant to imply that this is said tongue in cheek..."

Shhhh. If you start posting patently obvious things like that, Voice-of-Dumbness and the other shills might finally get a FRIKKIN CLUE and stop taking the bait.

What a sucker.

:)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 4:15:50 PM # Q
> "...It's the buggiest PDA. Ever..."

That's just stupid.

Occasionally palm devices have some teething trouble and need a service pack. This is the exception.

Using wince is a living hell of crashes, resets, spinning-hour-glasses, buggy external storage, nightmarish synchronization issues, lousy Office integration, and all these things are considered "normal" by wince fanatics. It's the m$ model, stupid! Code it cheap, and make it up on the marketing. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Does it fix the random DB corruption NVFS issue?
Ronin @ 10/7/2005 8:09:06 PM # Q
jchattin,

You are wise. :)

Your points are well made. A hard drive in a PDA is bad idea in my opinion too. It is workable (though not ideal) in an iPod because an iPod is a "toaster", essentially a single purpose device. A PDA/Smartphone (btw, this distinction continues to perplex me, the addition of a phone is the next natural step for PDAs) is a multi-purpose handheld computer and should not be anywhere near a hard drive.

However, I do believe that NVFS memory is a great idea, long over due. It is just unfortunate that it was (1) not implemented well and (2) marketed so poorly. In my experience, the number one complaint of non-techies regarding PDAs is the fear of spending time inputting data and losing it all because of a failure to charge it or switch batteries.

Also, expanding on your point, I think Palm's "zen of Palm" was a great philosophy and ultimately the reason that I used Palm device over others. I often say that the problem with computers, in general, is that they are not designed to be "idiot-proof". If it is idiot-proof it will be robust so that a single dumb move or a series of dumb moves will not cause data loss or crashes. If it is idiot proof, performing standard tasks will be obvious and intuitive, etc. Palm understood this but I think they allowed the cart to push the horse for along time and are now in a position where this philosophy is not sustainable at least in the short term.

Despite the fumbles and mistakes, I am hopeful that the PalmOS survives and is stronger for the experience. Hey, stranger things have happened - the miracle of survival that is Novell for example.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

Let's cut through all the BULL please.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/8/2005 6:06:25 AM # Q
Even if it was abused / used as an excuse at times, there is good merrit to the advertized design philosophy behind "zen of palm". It is said that "the simplest solution is almost always the right solution." If you have a solution that - at the end of the day - performs the same function as a more complicated solution, you have found engineering gold. I always prefer to solve a problem by not having to solve it. Rather, I first try to avoid the design that gave rise to it in the first place. Elegance, reliability, managability, efficiency, simplicity, and flexibility / extendability are not mutualy exclusive. Indeed, finding one often means you've found the others.

Yes the elegance and purity of design of the original Palm Pilots were impressive. But so was the Ford Model T. What Palm has done is analogous to try to sell cheap, Chinese-built versions of the Model T in 2005 for the price of a modern vehicle like the Toyota Prius. Their cynicism is truly amazing. It appears that Palm believes in the PT Barnum Theory of Sales.

Being first is often only good if you are the first with something that is a clear improvement over what came before. Considering the outward results of the recent internal changes to palm's hardware, it has taken palm backwards in reliability and peace-of-mind for the end user to a time before the very first palm pilot. Never before have palms been so unreliable, complicated, confusing, and incompatable. Any small gains that these design changes do offer are very short term, and are drowned out by all the long term problems they bring with them. Having fixed, non-removable mass storage within this type of device is unnecesary given the intended normal uses. And it is certainly bad if it in any way degrades its day-to-day reliability and usability.

Yes, Palm is so incompetent that when it finally tried to compete with other PDA makers it threw away the most important advantages of PalmOS: Simplicity and Reliability.

The palmpilot was not the first PDA - but it was the first PDA that got it right, and hence set the standard. In hindsight, what advantages did those other pda's have by being first? Palm realised that the device had to first and foremost be accesable and dependable. After all, it was competing with the reliability, accesability, and ease of use of pen and paper. Since it wasnt (and still isnt - and will be hard pressed to ever be) superior to pen and paper in those areas, it had to offer other advantages. Continuous and reliable acces to your information was crucial - as was a user interface that was invisible as possible. Above all, your data had to persist - and this meant backups. But the backups had to use up no brain power to deal with - hence the sync. Your data had to be available when you needed it - hence stability and long lasting power over color screens, backlights, and . Anyone who's enjoyed a game or flashy program can tell you that the enjoyment pales real quick when data is lost, or your call is droped. Why is that? Because it interferes with what the device is for.

Yes. Unfortunately, Palm does not care that their devices are unreliable. All Palm cares about is finding yet another sucker to relieve of a few hundred $$$.

Hard drives are not a permanent improvement that will benefit every device from here after. They are a complication to everything in the design of the device. They are also less reliable, fragile, slow, power hungry, not removable or swapable. They offer only marginal short term capacity gains over the superior removable solid state solutions (SD cards, etc) whose capacities march ever onward, and palm devices already support them. So you can store a few gigs of data in your palm today. You can do that with 2 removable 2 gig SD cards. And you can carry more than two if needed. The T5 also mystifies me. I've had a 512 mb SD card in my m505 for years. It can be removed, and used in my camera, my notebook, and placed into whatever new device that I upgrade to. In fact, it is now my "mass storage" in my treo. What am I to gain from a fixed internal 256mb that I can only access through a 10mb window -- which makes my device unstable, and incompatible with the programs and database that I have been using every day for the last 4 years? And now I have to deal with another half-integrated mode in my palm -- "drive mode"? Even devices that require mass internal storage have more than what their users need - A recent poll showed that the average iPod user carried at most 300 to 400 songs in their device. The iPod's drive was mostly unused. This is why ejecting the HD has paid such dividens in the design of the nano. Fully solid state. Integrated. Small. Less moving parts and things to break or fail. Easy to manufacture. Practical. Plenty of capacity for all but the elite power users.

Yes. Built in hard drives and architecture like the T5 are quite silly. As I've said for years, 64 - 128 MB of RealRAM™ + a large storage card + a built in backup application = intelligent design. As usual, the simplest (and easiest to produce!) design is frequently also the BEST. That's what the "Zen of Palm" was all about. Only problem is that the emperor has no clothes, so Palm has to rely on gimmicks like the Life Drive's hard drive and the T5's bogus memory architecture in order to fool customers into thinking they're getting a cutting edge design which they can then sell for premium prices.

Abused or not, it is precisely palms recent abandonment of "the zen of palm" or rather "the zen of correct and salient design" (the reasons why the pilot succeded) -- that is destroying them.

Actually, what's destroying Palm is that they are a lazy, greedy company that always tried to take the easy way out and had no qualms about fleecing their customers. Palm tried to milk a poor, old sickly, starving cow for too long and now she can't even stand up:

- PalmOS was never properly re-written to evolve it into a modern PDA/smartphone OS. It was much easier to just keep hacking it year after year until it became a rickety, bug-infested, kludgy house of cards. Now it's crisis time and Palm is screwed, having had to surrender to Windows Mobile while trying to make it appear as if a Windows Mobile "Palm" is A Good Thing.

- Palm tried to save money by telling its customers for years that they didn't "need" modern (expensive) hardware like color screens, memory expansion, multimedia, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, etc. Meanwhile Palm charged those customers premium prices for bargain basement hardware. Eventually, people started to realize they were getting ripped off and (once Windows Mobile became more reliable) many Palm users gradually moved to WinMob in order to get better hardware for their money. Once Palm loses a customer that way it's unlikely that they'll ever come back to the platform.

- Palm cut corners on construction quality, outsourcing to Chinese manufacturers that produce cheap, crappy, unreliable hardware. This destroyed the Palm reputation for having reliable hardware and has generated a LOT of anger towards Palm. Not to mention the loss of future sales ("once bitten, twice shy").

So let's see: "Palm" now stands for primitive + buggy OS (recently dumped in favor of Windows Mobile!), lack of hardware features, high price and poor construction quality. The only reasons the company is still around are the goodwill (STILL!) generated by the "Palm" name and the success of the amazing (Handspring) Treo design.


Those are the FACTS that the spin doctors will alway pretend don't exist.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

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