Treo 680 Release Date and Pricing
Rumor: An internal Cingular presentation on upcoming devices has been leaked on the web. The presentation includes information on the launch and pricing details for the Palm Treo 680. According to the leaked documents the 680 will be a Cingular exclusive when it debuts in the US and its launch announcement will come on November 6th. It is expected to debut for $199 depending on the selected contract and rebates.
The full presentation can be found online here.
The full tentative pricing options are listed as:
- $424.99, no commitment
- $349.99, 1 yr. commitment
- $249.99, 1 yr. with UNL data plan ($100 rebate)
- $274.99, 2 year commitment
- BEST price: $174.99 with UNL data plan ($100 rebate)
Other details found in the leaked presentation reveal that there is a planned Push to talk upgrade expected in Q1, 2007. Cingular will also offer BlackBerry Connect and Microsoft Direct Push support sometime in Q1 as well.
Thanks to Engadget for the tip.
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So much for 'low end'
RE: So much for 'low end'
RE: So much for 'low end'
Certainly not by ANYONE who has listened to PALM management recently, watched PALM historically, or seen the latest rumors including the one that this article mentions!
RE: So much for 'low end'
but typically, release date prices and proces 2 months later are very different
I suggest you look at the current price of an unlocked Treo 650 from Palm's UK store. £400 (US$760) for a Treo 650 is outrageous, especially with the imminent release of the Treo 680 and the current availability of the cheaper Nokia e61 and WinMob phones with wi-fi.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein
RE: So much for 'low end'
The treo650 + 2year is already $25 (yeah, twenty-five) at Amazon and at some retailers in Chinatown.
RE: So much for 'low end'
They will. Actually, buying unlocked from them'll be the only way to get one of the pretty colours: http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo680/
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: So much for 'low end'
If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
Time is running out. Palm's lineup over the past 3 years proves they don't have what it takes to compete with the Big Boys as a handset provider. As WordPerfect, Netscape, etc have shown us, once a company enters its death spiral the end tends to come quickly. Palm has had to offer a ton of rebates to get their inventory moving, so the Treo cash cow is already drying up. If the competition continues to take increasingly bigger bites of Palm's share of the smartphone pie and that pie isn't getting much bigger, how is Palm planning on making any money from now on? We've seen 3 years of mildly reheated versions of that tired old Treo 600 design and enough is enough. While I believe a $99 Treo 680 with contract is actually a good deal, in order to offer that kind of pricing for carriers Palm would have to be making huge cuts in its profitability just in order to maintain market share. Ed Colligan has already hinted that Palm's profits are about to nosedive and he's already using the excuse of needing to maintain market share to justify the upcoming tsunami of red ink. Very clever, but quite mendacious.
Palm has become a one trick pony and that (Treo) pony is starting to look like a lame, busted-up old nag compared to the slick new competition. In a year, even a "free" (with 2 year contract) Treo 680 will not be competitive with what Nokia, HTC, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Samsung et. al will be offering.
Palm killed its PDA business on purpose, but that cold, calculated gamble seems to have backfired. By feeding into the myth that consumers didn't want PDAs and failing to innovate in that sphere, Palm created a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, in 2006 no one wants a $400 standalone PDA that has exactly the same (or even LESS) features they could have got in 2003. But had Palm innovated and added features like video playback with simplified DVD conversion software, VoIP, integrated cellphone radios, OLED screens, GPS, clamshell or slide-out keyboards, improved battery life, etc., the "traditional" (i.e. non-smartphone) PDA market would not be moribund.
Now that Palm has abandoned traditional PDA users, wouldn't it be ironic if the PDA market makes a resurgence as soon as a new manufacturer enters the sphere with a device that finally offers all the ingredients people have been begging for? I recently tried out the Sony mylo. It's not quite yet ready for prime time, but had Palm come out with a similar device running PalmOS they could have had a HUGE hit this year. A $299 PalmOS mylo-type device, a $299 PalmOS device with all the bells and whistles, a $199 Tungsten TX refresh and a $99 Zire with an SD slot and an MP3 player-centric design could all have easily (and cheaply!) been produced and would have given Palm a KILLER PDA lineup in 2006. Instead, Colligan et.al. threw all their eggs into the Treo basket, only to see that basket get crushed/commoditized/cheapened by devices like the Motorola Q.
Unless they get bought out, how can Palm recover from all of these mistakes? And more importantly, does Palm still have ANYTHING to offer a potential suitor that makes them worthy of the current asking price? At this point in time (LATE 2006), the only assets Palm has are the Palm name and the Treo name. Together, they might be worth $1,000,000,000 to the right company. Unfortunately, Palm's latest corporate game (propping up its stock price/market cap with a stock buyback) has artificially inflated the stock price compared to its true value (Palm's current market cap is around $1,600,000,000), so only a very wealthy and/or stupid company would pull the trigger at that price. Then again, the dumba$$es at Sirius paid $500,000,000 just for Howard Stern, so maybe there really is a sucker born every minute. I had heard that ****** was looking at buying Palm. We'll know before the end of the year if those rumors were true. Or if Palm's stock manipulation games scared them off...
TVoR
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
You really upset me by mentioning stern, i subscribe to sirius, he brought over 5 million people, and counting, and that meants in 8 1/2 monthes they already paid for his deal by him coming and taking a place with half a million and now to 5 1/2 million and helping them get contracts with car makers to factory install sirius, etc. I personally bought my mom and sister units and pay my moms subscription. i am a truck driver. every trucker has xm sirius, do the math. I dont care what your political views are, please keep them to yourself, in advance. I am talking something we all care about $.
now to palm, yeah they are concentrating on smart phones, so is everyone else who sells anything, ipaq being the only exception, and compaqs ceo was caught using a blackberry. check palmzone. what else was left to do to innovate the pda, it does internet, graphics, multimedia, wifi bluetooth, etc. there isnt really anything to improve on, that warrants a new pda. they tried the hard drive, people didnt like it. the next improvement is the smartphone, and maybe some people just want a pda, and not a smartphone, well thats like wanting a typewriter, not a computer. and some people have alot of use for typewriters but ibm did not abandon the typewriter they went on to make the laptop.
they are doing such a good job with the 680 i am thinking of getting rid of the two year old t5, pda one trick pony data device for something with true multimedia, microphone, a camera, video, conversation recorder, a real character input with high speed modem,voice recognition.
And because i know its supported better as far as upgrades go, than pda software and new third party software. the new concealed attenna makes it much more suitable as a main cellular phone, i couldnt put that old treo in my pocket and go into a bar for instance.
They bought back stock because they had a huge quarterly profit and buying common stock to put it in reserved stock insures noone can buy the majority of your stock in a hostile takeover. It also makes the shareholders more money if they get bought out or *merged*. needless to say.
If most major cellular companies (cingular verizon and sprint) are all offering YOUR brand of PDA ........AND you keep showing profits, that is the definition of success for this company. and when people like me have the only company (tmobile) that doesnt carry them, and we still buy the palm one.
lets get this straight, they didnt abandon traditional pdas, they advanced a pda as far as a pda will ever be good for, and now its time to try new technology, you dont hear people saying 'mead you abandoned the spiral notebook for new wireless notebooks' because they failed to innovate a classic but finished product.
ford abandoned the car market by not adding more wheels, pizza hut abandonded the pizza market for not going from triangular slices of pizza to pyramid shaped slices, its ridiculous.
and i always bought my pda to use with a phone anyway. and when i write in the future i think the treo keyboard wil take some getting used to, but i wont get annoyed when writing a page of material in wordpad. and i wont have to carry around a bluetooth pda keyboard. i am not afraid of change, but microsoft, they never innovated in their life. they copied, or else their original pocket pcs wouldnt look exactly like palm pdas, blackberry may look different in design, and they are, it doesnt even do html pages.
thats what she said!
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
you say the pocket computer market isnt getting much bigger, funny i read on one of these palms site, citing a study it was the fastest growing segment of cell or computer market. and the cell phone was the single most successful piece of electronics in history, beating out the tv.
not many computers, can you even buy without some kind of rebate, nowadays, its no 'downward spiral' and treos and pdas and regular camera phones that happen to do a very limited amount of multimedia. amped mobile is a joke. helio ? ive yet to find what the hell it is, it has to be a cell phone, or a nuclear bomb, cause they wont say what the hell is diferent about it on their site last time i looked.
your entire post, like many other posts on here, is misinformation, dis information campaigning, slanderous for the fact you said they manipulated stock, maybe YOU should be charged of the sec for insider trading, trading secrets, and mentioning rumors of them being bought out. you are now trying to manipulate stock price by going to news site and paying to post an ad that slanders palm, you didnt get your internet, computer, for free or off a tree did you, you paid. and i would bet money it was claimed last year as a bussiness expense to offset your gross income.
this is what they call subliminal advertising, public relations and advertising people do it. they also go into chatrooms and maybe cingular is doing it to this site right now the 680 doesnt appear to be exclusive to cingular. none of the 680s on the palm site have a cingular logo on them,
before i was a truck driver, i worked for cat logistics, programming pdas, and phones for sprint, that was the very last temp job my agency sent me to before i got my cdl, now i occassionally haul cingular phones out of a place right by graceland up to ups in ky. and oh yeah the cellular market does desperate things, to keep marketshare, like paying full price to haul a high value load of cell phones when the 53foot trailer is only 10 foot full, sounds pretty lucrative to me, and they can still afford to pay rebates on it you say, wow. and at sprint we only had 1-2 persons who knew how to program pocket pcs per shift, because there wasnt much of a need, and 3-4 people to program wireless cards and palm treos.
people look at a pocket pc and they go 'wow you just made annoying even smaller and more compact, now i can take irritation with me wherever i go' 'wow this will complicate my life so much easier'
thats what she said!
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
I don't comment often, but I take issue with this statement. There was and still are plenty of things Palm (or any other company) could have done to advance their PDAs. Better batteries, faster processors, better form factors, better screen technology (OLED, maybe?), advanced mobile video chipsets...these are blatantly obvious potential advancements.
Palm's PDAs weren't even the most advanced of the species. They effectively rehashed the same technology for years. GPS never happened. WiFi happened on a grand total of two of their PDAs and it's still not on their smartphones. Implementing the hard drive didn't fail because people don't like hard drives; it failed because the capacity didn't make up for the loss in performance and reliability that resulted with the LifeDrive. If a LifeDrive-sized device came out with a 30gb hard drive, that would be different. 4gb is pathetic and was pathetic even then.
And I didn't even mention the fact that OS5 is so far beyond its years that it's not even funny anymore.
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
just out of curiousity, what would an OLED, mpeg 2 decoder chipset, 30 gig minature hard drive with acceptable read/write times, what do you figure that would cost right now? 2 grand? 1 grand? maybe as cheap as 800 bucks?
if its such a good idea, why isnt anyone else in the entire world coming out with anything oled, or any minature 30 gig drives or mpeg 2 chipsets the size of a dime.
and a faster processor? your on crack, in one sentance you say more battery life, then you say faster cpu, which is it, you cant have both, and they dont make the chips, intel does.
next thing your gonna say is palm is abandoning the pda market for not bringing about nano technology.
'yeah man, nano is actually cheaper to make cause uh, you use less copper and stuff dude cause its smaller man'
thats what she said!
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
access is a hardware rom company, not a software company,
how many things included in the o/s arent even made by them, but licensed, pocket tunes, word to go, versamail, realplayer.l
cause they put a calculator and a planner in, now they are a software company? blazer is the only thing i am prety sure they wrote, and i would bet that was contracted out.
yeah it sucks there is a demand for new smart phones, and with that demand access has to make operating systems and software to work with all of them that come out, and release updates, how many times has microsoft let you update a pocket pc o/s even in the slightest, i heard they dont offer upgrades.
yeah it really sucks smartphones give us a middleground without the less computer saavy, a middleground with a ton of new software on it, weehhh poor us.
thats what she said!
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
ROFL. Nail. Head.
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
in one sentance you say they cant handle the big dogs, then you say they scared people off from buying them out, so who is the big dog now?
People are scared of buying Palm not so much because it's a big dog but because it's one rabid little terrier with razor sharp teeth - it has nothing to offer but pain, misery and death.
What does Palm have to offer an investor?
Innovation? Don't make us laugh, even by Colligan's own admission, the Treo 680 is at the same technical level as the Treo 650. Many cell phones on the market now come with more features than any Treo, nevermind smartphones.
Operating System? Certainly not the Palm OS
Knowledge of the Cellphone market? Even Palm has admitted that it's a market it's trying to get into.
Intellectual Property? See innovation.
The only thing Palm brings to the market that's unique is the Treo name, the Treo form factor and the mythical ease of use of the Treo.
Maybe nobody's buying Palm because nobody really wants to.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
what would an OLED, mpeg 2 decoder chipset, 30 gig minature hard drive with acceptable read/write times, what do you figure that would cost right now? 2 grand? 1 grand? maybe as cheap as 800 bucks?
$249 if you lose the OLED. They're called iPods and Creative Zen media players.
They're part of the reason why PDAs didn't become as popular as predicted.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein
Palm is Being Slowly Squeezed in a Pincer Movement
Still, if Palm releases it at the right price it could still buy Palm more time.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
Yup yup yup.
It's cheaper to contract with HTC than it is to buy PALM.
And that literally is ...no kidding...
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
as far as the 650/700/680 differences go, maybe we are different
but to me the old design with the attenna sticking out, seemed about as practicial, due to its size, as walking around a crowded concert with an errection.
and as far as noone wanting to buy palm, i wanted to buy palm stock, they got paid dividends last quarter, they didnt split stock like most companies. and they have a ton of cash, a bunch of profit, and sorry i misspoke about reserved stock, its called private stock, but you get the idea.
thats what she said!
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
ipaq 890 pocket pc with windows mobile edition 2005 revision 2
palm treo 680 powered by access v.5.4
thats what she said!
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
I think you want to do a wee bit more Due Diligence before hitting the "investing" ranks...
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
Uh, the codec in general, and MPEG2 in particular, has little/nothing to do with resolution. It has to do with video encoding and quality per given bitrate. You can encode just about any codec you like at any resolution. Also, the LCD's refresh rate isn't the performance bottleneck in playing video on a mobile device, it's always the CPU. Continuing in that vein, dedicated video hardware isn't the difference between MPEG1 and MPEG2, it's MPEG4/Divx/Xvid, as well as 3D acceleration for producing graphics on the level of many handheld gaming consoles. Faster processors wouldn't be a problem if Palm implemented speed-stepping. And Palm did not pay dividends last quarter. They haven't paid dividends in over three years.
I'd go on, but I have more important things to do.
RE: If the Treo 680 is $424.99, why is the Treo 700p $619 - $649?
if its such a good idea, why isnt anyone else in the entire world coming out with anything oled, or any minature 30 gig drives or mpeg 2 chipsets the size of a dime."
First off, I named things that could easily be done to advance the PDA, I never gave a timeframe for such advancements. You claimed that the PDA could not be advanced any farther, and I proved you wrong.
That said, with the proper R&D, such a device could be brought out at a sub-$400 price point within a few years. Without the OLED, within months. OLED is not used in current devices because the technology hasn't been developed to the point where it's cost-effective yet. You'll most likely see it eventually, but the problem is that no one's put the money into that particular technology yet.
"and a faster processor? your on crack, in one sentance you say more battery life, then you say faster cpu, which is it, you cant have both, and they dont make the chips, intel does."
So I suppose the PDAs from Dell and other manufacturers with 624mhz XScale processors don't count? Intel has made faster chips, as has Samsung. And, as previously said, speed-stepping would allow these processors to achieve good battery life.
By your reasoning, new PCs shouldn't be released just because of faster processors or better video cards or more memory, because they function fine just the way they are.
Advancement isn't rocket science, it's necessary. Palm has not advanced the PDA in ways that it clearly could, and has thus abandoned the PDA market just as most companies have.
This guy HAS to be a TROLL.
First of all, your numbers about the effects Howard Stern has had on Sirus' membership are completely, utterly wrong. Edumacate yourself before you post more "misinformation, dis information campaigning":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Xm_sirius_subscribers.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Satellite_Radio
what else was left to do to innovate the pda, it does internet, graphics, multimedia, wifi bluetooth, etc. there isnt really anything to improve on, that warrants a new pda. they tried the hard drive, people didnt like it. the next improvement is the smartphone, and maybe some people just want a pda, and not a smartphone, well thats like wanting a typewriter, not a computer. and some people have alot of use for typewriters but ibm did not abandon the typewriter they went on to make the laptop.
As several posters have tried to inform you, there are still a LOT of things left to improve on with PDA design. And you seem oblivious to the biggest problem with smartphones: SIZE. (As in screen too small to use comfortably and phone too big to carry comfortably.)
in one sentance you say they cant handle the big dogs, then you say they scared people off from buying them out, so who is the big dog now?
In what alternate universe, praytell did you see me mention big "dogs"? Palm may lose its buyer simply because it is overvalued for what it offers a potential suitor. Period.
you say the pocket computer market isnt getting much bigger, funny i read on one of these palms site, citing a study it was the fastest growing segment of cell or computer market. and the cell phone was the single most successful piece of electronics in history, beating out the tv.
Actually, I said "If the competition continues to take increasingly bigger bites of Palm's share of the smartphone pie and that pie isn't getting much bigger, how is Palm planning on making any money from now on?" Studies lumping Symbian phones into the mix (calling them all "smartphones") are meaningless. Palm's target market for Treo sales is true smartphone users (not featurephone users who happen to have a phone running a so-called smartphone OS) and - ignoring the bogus effects Symbian has on the numbers - this market has seen disappointing growth in recent quarters.
your entire post, like many other posts on here, is misinformation, dis information campaigning, slanderous for the fact you said they manipulated stock, maybe YOU should be charged of the sec for insider trading, trading secrets, and mentioning rumors of them being bought out. you are now trying to manipulate stock price by going to news site and paying to post an ad that slanders palm, you didnt get your internet, computer, for free or off a tree did you, you paid. and i would bet money it was claimed last year as a bussiness expense to offset your gross income.
U R 2 funny.
before i was a truck driver, i worked for cat logistics, programming pdas, and phones for sprint, that was the very last temp job my agency sent me to before i got my cdl, now i occassionally haul cingular phones out of a place right by graceland up to ups in ky. and oh yeah the cellular market does desperate things, to keep marketshare, like paying full price to haul a high value load of cell phones when the 53foot trailer is only 10 foot full, sounds pretty lucrative to me, and they can still afford to pay rebates on it you say, wow. and at sprint we only had 1-2 persons who knew how to program pocket pcs per shift, because there wasnt much of a need, and 3-4 people to program wireless cards and palm treos
The fact that you worked at Sprint underscores how useless their employees generally are...
just out of curiousity, what would an OLED, mpeg 2 decoder chipset, 30 gig minature hard drive with acceptable read/write times, what do you figure that would cost right now? 2 grand? 1 grand? maybe as cheap as 800 bucks?
Try $400. The parts are all available. TODAY.
People are scared of buying Palm not so much because it's a big dog but because it's one rabid little terrier with razor sharp teeth - it has nothing to offer but pain, misery and death.
;-O
not to mention mpeg 2 is just a higher resolution codec, a resolution the palm can not even display......... and the ipod analogy, now your saying just mpeg 2 warrants a new handhield, noone is gonna run out and buy a handhield because it supports a resolution that the display doesnt, oled would go hand in hand...... ipod doesnt have any operating system overhead, same reason a gaming system can do what a much more expensive pc can, its not a multi purpose machine with memory overhead because of the o/s
Wow. You're utterly clueless.
but to me the old design with the attenna sticking out, seemed about as practicial, due to its size, as walking around a crowded concert with an errection.
I would have thought someone as small as you are would be happy to carry a Treo "Falsie".
and as far as noone wanting to buy palm, i wanted to buy palm stock, they got paid dividends last quarter, they didnt split stock like most companies. and they have a ton of cash, a bunch of profit, and sorry i misspoke about reserved stock, its called private stock, but you get the idea.
"Investors" like you have made a LOT of money for a LOT of OTHER people. Thanks for sharing.
Stay in school, Bubba
TVoR
freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
As you may or may not care I'm an Aussie. Being Australian gives one a number of unique natural advantages over other humans; most notably in brain and genitalia size.
However, one area where we are sadly deficient is the timely release of new Palms. Frequently, we can be left waiting months for new Treos and the like. I'm very tired of it, and what's more, I'm also very concerned that just like with the Black Tie 650, Australia will be shafted when it comes to a choice of colours with the new 680.
So, I appeal to your good nature! I appeal to your Paypal account! I need a US proxy to buy and send me an unlocked Crimson Treo 680 from the Palm store when it becomes available. I would of course pay in advance, and probably even kick in $20 for your trouble. (That's fair, isn't it? Considering all you'll have to do is take delivery and pop it in the post...)
If you're interested, drop me a line at freakout87 AT gmail DOT com.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
> advantages over other humans; most notably in brain and genitalia
> size...
Isn't that because there are no females in Australia (*)?
Lack of use does that to a person...
[(*) In the deep distant past I seem to remember some sort of program to attract women to Australia - I remember no details, however, but it could have been as attractive as free airfare or something]
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
Ivan
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
SV, there was a program to attract women to Australia. Pamphlets containing a centrefold of myself wearing nothing but an Akubra were air-dropped over several countries. The campaign was halted when we saw a 600% increase in female migration, leading to a radical national gender imbalance. After much debate, the decision was made to remove the "To ravage Tim" checkbox from the "Reasons for Wanting Australian Citizenship" form.
It's still on the tourist visa application though.
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting man
It's still on the tourist visa application though.
NOW we know why Australia has the highest concentration of gay males outside of San Francisco. You GO girl!
TVoR
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
If New Zealand was settled as a penal colony then Australia is, essentially, a penile colony?
;-)
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting Urologist
If New Zealand was settled as a penal colony then Australia is, essentially, a penile colony?
Yes - a very SMALL penile colony...
TVoR
Holy disappearing posts, Batman!
Earlier, I innocently asked something to the effect of "Why do Australians boast about their small brains and tiny genitalia requiring less resources to keep functioning?" This legitimate question awaits an answer. No doubt the Aussies out there slowly mouthing this post to themselves are thinking as hard as they can in an effort to come up with a cogent response...
TVoR
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
RE: freakout needs the help of a long subject line
Oh, settle down you pedantical sheila. When "cultural slurs" didn't have quite the same ring to it. :P
Be careful with the microscope. We wouldn't want to put an eye out...
RE: freakout needs the help of a friendly, trusting American
Settle, Petal
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