Hawkins Interview with Palm's Foleo Team

Palm has posted a podcast audio interview with Jeff Hawkins on the official Palm blog. The interview, concerning all things Foleo and conducted with an unnamed female interviewer, is surprisingly lengthy but does not get into the nitty-gritty technical points many long-term Palm afficionados are longing for. Overall, Hawkins' talk touches on the same issues touched upon at the D: All Things Digital conference on May 30th but is nevertheless worth listening to as he illustrates how this product is decidedly not a laptop or desktop PC replacement.

Hawkins' enthusiasm for the product continues to be on display throughout the interview as he predicts a revolution in peoples' work habits with the combination of a Foleo plus a connected smartphone such as the Treo.

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Does he make sense?

sgiga @ 6/19/2007 12:45:20 PM # Q
A powerful PC is needed for multimedia, gaming, video editing and a some other CPU intensive tasks. However, a powerful processor and lots of ram and disk space is not enough. A large screen is also essential (at least 19" as an absolute minimum), as well as some substantial amount of sound volume.

Trying to shrink all this into a Foleo sized package will not work. The CPU, RAM and HD - yes, but at the expense of battery life, heat and money. The screen and sound - no way, it is physically impossible. When peeling off all the things you don't need because you do not have the screen for it, you are left with the Foleo. A small, light, good looking device that does the job, and does it WITH the device you cannot be without - the phone.

This makes perfect sense, period.

Personally I am going to purchase a SE P1i as soon as it comes out (any day now), but I also want a Foleo kind of device. As soon as a Symbian compatible Foleo is ready, I will get it, wether it is made by Palm, SE, Nokia, Samsung, Microsoft or whatever.

RE: Does he make sense?
LiveFaith @ 6/19/2007 5:10:56 PM # Q
Obviously Palm currently has serious support issues ... Phonelink, Treo 700P, etc. That being said, Hawkins has made it clear on various occasions that Palm will support as many phones as possible with the Foleo. That SE seems to be a perfect case model for Foleo's target buyer. If they actually do that, then I would see that being done. Obviously, the both OS Treos, other WinMob phones would be targets. But Symbian could not be far behind surely. The E61,62, Nxxx & P9xx come immediately to mind.

But that's JMO.

Pat Horne

FOOLeo biotchslapped to DEATH by ASUS Eee PC
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 4:33:06 AM # Q
http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/Hands_on_with_the_ASUS_Eee/

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/asus-new-eee-pc-701-joins-the-laptop-lite-fray-with-a-bang/

$199 for model with 4 GB Flash hard drive
$299 for model with 8 GB Flash hard drive

Linux OS, but will support Windows XP install


VS.

FOOLeo:
- 128 MB RAM
- PalmLinux
- Not Windows compatible
- $599 ("$499 after initial mail in rebate")

In 2006, the Motorola Q shocked Palm with its low price and forced Palm to rethink its Treo pricepoints. The FOOLeo isn't even out yet and the competition has already savagely undercut Palm on pricing. Users can get 3 Eee PC for the price of ONE FOOLeo, for fcuks sake! W T F!!! Even the VIA NanoBook just got pwned by ASUS. At $199 and less than 2 pounds, ASUS has reached the sweet spot for impulse buyers, students, computer-phobic newbies, etc. If they get these things into Wal-Marts and Target stores, prepare for a revolution in the computer industry - for $199 these things can do 90% of the things that the average user does on their laptops. This device will be picked up for use as a near-disposeable laptop that can be carried anywhere for Internet surfing, email and document writing, Skype, etc. Install Windows, Microsoft SyncToy or Migo, back up files to an 8 GB SD card or USB Flash drive and feel free to take this microlaptop to places you would never take a $2000 Sony VAIO or Fujitsu Lifebook for fear of them being stolen. Too bad they don't offer an option for a Windows version for $50 more...

I Pity the FOOLeo. Once people see what $199 can buy, the $599 FOOLeo is going to have to have its price immediately cut to $299 (or "$399 plus $100 rebate" if they insist on playing games) if Palm hopes to sell ANY FOOLeos this year.

Can someone remind me again what Palm is doing introducing the FOOLeo in mid 2007?


TVoR

RE: Does he make sense?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/22/2007 7:43:33 AM # Q
> ...If they get these things into Wal-Marts and Target stores,
> prepare for a revolution in the computer industry - for $199
> these things can do 90% of the things that the average user
> does on their laptops...

How strange - I was just reminded by your post that I =do= want a cheap, carry around the house and to the pool laptop to do JUST surfing/email, pretty much.

And $200-$300 for a few hours in-between charges does fit that bill!

Hmmm...where's that credit card...

RE: Does he make sense?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/22/2007 7:48:22 AM # Q
> ...have its price immediately cut to $299 (or "$399 plus $100
> rebate" if they insist on playing games)...

That is not a game - it is HIGH-ROI Marketing:

-- http://www.google.com/search?q=rebate+scam

It would be interesting to see what percent of potential PALM rebates actually occur. Here's a related-link about Verizon and rebates (from the above search):

-- http://www.slate.com/id/2084210/

RE: Does he make sense?
Tuckermaclain @ 6/22/2007 5:59:44 PM # Q
The Asus is just what I've been looking for. I thought about a small Averatec, but at a fraction of the size and price how can one pass this up? Forget the Folly-Oh for now. I'll sync my T/C to the Asus.

Reply to this comment

seriously?

nybble @ 6/19/2007 12:45:39 PM # Q
Honestly, I didn't really get enthusiasm from that interview. He's said the same things that he's said before, nothing new technically or marketingly was revealed. I mean, does he honestly believe that people will have the 2.5lb Foleo around with them as much as they have their Treo?

I don't think the Foleo is necessarily a bad device or doomed to failure, but I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line.

http://comments.deasil.com/2007/06/19/more-foleo-thoughts/

RE: seriously?
sgiga @ 6/19/2007 1:21:56 PM # Q
"I don't think the Foleo is necessarily a bad device or doomed to failure, but I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line."

I agree. The problem with the Treo is that it doesn't sell. It is a very expensive device consisting of mediocre and buggy technology packed in a several year old design. I don't think the Foleo will sell more Treos, so why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange. I believe in the Foleo concept, but it has to be marketed as a phone campanion, this means has to work with Symbian, RIM, Linux and Microsoft, certainly not PalmOS Treos.

RE: seriously?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/19/2007 3:33:34 PM # Q
I think PALM has realized the TREO line - the entire smartphone line - is dead for them unless they do something "different" so they are going to concentrate on the Fooleo AND its ilk.

Someone somewhere around here just mentioned a 19" screen.

Not a problem, necessarily.

About 3 or 4 years ago I mentioned (somewhere) a "component system" of communicating devices (ala a stereo system where you can mix and match components that you purchased separately). Still seems doable.

And seems doable with the Fooleo "concept".

RE: seriously?
LiveFaith @ 6/19/2007 5:37:39 PM # Q
*The problem with the Treo is that it doesn't sell.*

Uh, what? At about 4pm today Colligen will read out loud how many gazillions they sold recently. The Treo is Palm's one-trick-pony these days. Yes, the vultures are beginning to circle b/c of the obvious oncoming competition from the phone giants + Palm's unwillingness to produce technically compelling upgrades. But Treos obviously still have great name recognition and currently ship well. It's the near future that has Palm looking like a buyout target.

*why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange.*
They really don't market it as a "Treo" companion. It's called "mobile companion" and JH has repeatedly said that Palm will try to accommodate as many phones as possible. Your list is a very good one that I would expect to see. POS+Linux, WinMob, Symbian, & RIM.

*I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line.*
I disagree for a couple of reasons.
First, "now" is not the time that Palm is focusing on this. Obviously, this kind of paradigm shift has taken the past few years behind the scenes. The price has been paid to a large degree b/c the first device is about to hit the shelves soon. Palm obviously shot itself in the foot with the horrible decision to spin off it's OS back when. The ramifications of that and the Palmsource collapse are obviously major factors in Palm's pathetic product roadmap since the Treo 650. It's been a 15mph school zone, not an interstate.
Also, I hope hope hope that Foleo's resources and brainpower contributed to that somewhat. In other words, I hope the worst of it is over and now the Treos can improve at a decent rate while the Foleo deployment and development builds steam. It looks like the unconnected PDA is finished, so Palm has it's eggs in two baskets. But the focus began a looong time ago in tech terms.
Second, next year would certainly be no better. Competition in the Smartfone market will be even greater for the Treos and the cry would be "not right now" then too. I don't know if Palm can pull off this companion vision or not, but I say this. They have to do something, and doing a features battle with Samsung, Nokia, SE, HTC & RIM is nothing more than a slow painful death. Palm knows that and so does the dark side. Foleo is something nobody else is doing. I mean nobody. That fact may be a blessing or a curse as we'll see. But, Palm is small. Small can innovate in a way that giants find difficult. Hawkins is obviously a successful visionary. Innovating is Palm's only chance for survival. The sooner the better too. Will they pull it off? ... story at 11. :-o

Pat Horne

RE: seriously?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/19/2007 6:41:23 PM # Q
> ...Hawkins is obviously a successful visionary...

Yes, LifeDrive One was pure genius.

RE: seriously?
sgiga @ 6/19/2007 7:27:21 PM # Q
I know that PalmOS has less than 0.2% of the smartphone market, obviously they cannot sell a whole lot. I don't know how many Windows Treos they sell, but HTC is the king in that branch. Symbian has 72% of the market.

It just seems odd for a device like Foleo to go after the smallest market segment available, to even consider it, at least from a marketing point of view. But then, maybe it is so generic that there is no major work to extend the Foleo to other operating systems?


RE: seriously?
LiveFaith @ 6/20/2007 12:41:37 AM # Q
Dude. Nice smackdown of poor little Palm there, but Hawkins has stated about 139 times that Palm will try to make the Foleo compat with as many different devices as possible. I'm not holding my breath since I've seen "Phonelink", but they are not looking to get a small piece of the "relatively" small Treo only market. A bit bigger I do B leave.

Pat Horne
RE: seriously?
Dr Opinion @ 6/20/2007 8:38:22 AM # Q
> "...I know that PalmOS has less than 0.2% of the smartphone market..."

Dude, that's just lame. Counting non-querty Symbian 60-series as "smartphones" comparable with the Treo is either a demonstration of your naivete or your agenda.

(1) Symbian can't sell zip in the US. But Treo's sell very, very well.
(2) Non-querty series-60 phones are pretty and all, but hardly functionally comparable to a Treo in real life.

The treo is capable of acting as a laptop replacement, with massive amounts of software and hardware available. It's a hugely successful platform, not a merely a ridiculously expensive yet pretty phone like the non-querty series-60 gadgets. I drive to a client, using the Treo as GPS, switiching between greek lessons on MP3 and concalls on speakerphone. I sync over the air with my home PC running Outlook, pull over, edit some powerpoint slides and send them on by email to a colleague. It just works.

Symbian? Dude, really.



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: seriously?
sgiga @ 6/20/2007 10:34:30 AM # Q
0.2% is 0.2% no matter how you look at it. MS got 4.5% or something (cant remember exactly). The main thing is that smartphone marked is growing 30-40% each year, and PalmOS is still selling less each year, not just in relative market share but in absolute numbers. QWERT is nice for Word and email in a business-centric phone, but is absolutely no necessity for a smartphone in general, just look at HTC, Mac - and of course Nokia and SE.

The reality is that the trend in smartphones has never been QWERTY, it's something RIM introduced with their email-only gadgets, and mainly in the US. Then the Treo came with QWERTY phone, but as much as I like Palm devices it is a large stretch to call the Treo a success by any standard compared with Symbian devices.

All the new top of the line smartphones does not have QWERTY (iPhone, SE W960, Nokia N95, HTCs and so on). Still - SE, Nokia and HTC also have smartphones with QWERTY, but they are mainly marketed as business phones aiming for the same small market segment as RIM is aiming at.

Clearly, there is a place for the Foleo here.

Reply to this comment

Right Idea, Wrong Implementation

Mevets @ 6/19/2007 9:21:02 PM # Q
Hawkins almost has the right idea.

Portable devices, that allow me to carry around all my data, have one flaw, I/O. Both the screen and the keyboard are too small.

The solution is not another device to carry around. The solution is having a large screen and keyboard available when I get to where I'm going.

I get to work, dock my portable, and use the full sized screen and keyboard. I take my portable when I leave work and dock it when I get home.

Dock it in my dorm room. And in the classroom. And in my bedroom when I'm home during breaks.

I could dock it in my hotel room. I could dock it in internet cafes. I could dock it a a friends house. I could dock it in my car. Airplanes, trains, buses, anywhere there is a compatible dock I can dock it.

And thus it is if I have a full sized computer where ever I go. Albeit not always while I'm going there.

My data and software are portable. With an interface suitable to portable interaction. Small keyboard, stylus, multi-touch, whatever. And thus always available.

Foleo is both too small and too big. It is the wrong solution.


RE: Right Idea, Wrong Implementation
Gekko @ 6/19/2007 9:24:50 PM # Q

Meta Pad: IBM's Prototype Modular Computer
IBM researchers have invented a prototype 9-ounce portable computing device that could pave the way for a new set of functionality in the handheld space. It can transform in seconds into a handheld, desktop, laptop, tablet or wearable computer, without having to be rebooted.


http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/rsc.metapad.html



RE: Right Idea, Wrong Implementation
Mevets @ 6/19/2007 9:41:28 PM # Q
Cool, I didn't know about that.

Perhaps a bit before it's time, it sure looks "big" and clunky.

But probably doable today.



RE: Right Idea, Wrong Implementation
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 6:03:31 AM # Q
> Meta Pad...

Wow - there it is - the component computer system.

Cool.

Reply to this comment

Right Idea...5 years too late

Fat_Man @ 6/20/2007 2:26:19 AM # Q
The Foleo would have been an awesome device about 5 years ago. Now I think if you are going to carry something the size of a laptop... you would want it to do a lot more than just reading emails, editing docs, or viewing pictures. As internet content is heading to more and more multimedia based, why would you want to go with a Foleo when you can get relatively media rich laptop?

KAY
RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 3:44:39 AM # Q
Mevets,

Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them.

Docks are not mobile.
If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET! Anywhere! the Foleo can be brought AND be connected via its Wifi OR the Treo's cell radio.

No one is saying the Foleo is to be squeezed like a prison weight into your pocket.
It is a physical extention to your future home, truly personal computer, the smartphone.

For me personally, I see it as being the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T.

Of course laptops do everything, the point is the Foleo does things better, from a pragmatic real life human experience perspective.

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
Mevets @ 6/20/2007 10:52:29 PM # Q
"Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them."

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

I choose hotels the offer in room net access. More and more are doing so these days.

I choose cafes and restaurants that offer wifi. Popping up everywhere (even a local gas station offers free wifi!).

Hotels can offer them. Airlines and airports could offer them. Colleges could have them in dorms, lecture halls, classrooms, labs, student unions, ...

Perhaps you've been in a hotel with a business center. you know, computers, printers, net access available for anyone to use. The Western Wetherill Inn, in Kayenta, Arizona, the middle of nowhere, has a computer and printer for guest use. I've used it.

Maybe you've seen similar setups in airports, train and bus stations.

"Docks are not mobile."

Firm grasp of the obvious there kiddo ...

They are not meant to be. Small and portable AND big and stationary.

"If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET!"

If I'm camping I not gonna want to drag a Foleo with me. Likewise if I'm at a camp. Or at a picnic. Something like an iPhone would suit my needs much better then a wanna be laptop.

At home, at work, or in a hotel I can have a docking station. In a car a dock linked into the GPS and entertainment system, just add a keyboard.

I do other things on the toilet. But I suppose a docking station could be set up there. I've been in hotels with ethernet jacks in the bathroom so why not a docking station?

As to Foleo, for me, personally, I see it as the last gasp of a dying company.

Sad, very sad. Palm coulda been a contender.

MevetS

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/21/2007 1:20:22 AM # Q
>>>Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them."

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

No, just create web-accessible apps that save data to folders that sync with the FOOLeo or Treo. That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices.

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
Mevets @ 6/22/2007 8:08:47 PM # Q
"That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices."

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.

I have a cabin in the country. No internet. I can carry my portable device, with all my data, with me when I go there. Drop it in the dock. And I'm not force to use a mini screen or a chicklet keyboard.

Note that the dock could be a full computer. Or it could be a Fooleo class device done right (screen, keyboard, mouse, with the portable device providing the processing power).

The key idea is that the portable device is truly portable (not pseudo portable like Fooleo) and the non-portable device is full size. A phone or PDA size device that I can drop in my pocket.

MevetS

Internet apps + apps running off USB Flash drives = perfection.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 11:04:27 PM # Q
whom>>>"That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices."

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.


http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9472/#134061

The FOOLeo hardware is a joke. Give us online syncing, Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:17:35 AM #

"If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop"

SOLUTION:

http://store.migosoftware.com/product.php?productid=16135&SourceId=&cat=0&page=1

http://www.kingston.com/flash/dt_IIplusmigo.asp


********************************************************************************

As I've posted before, the true "innovation" in the FOOLeo concept would only be if Palm has figured out wireless syncing between smartphones and online servers. Palm needs to offer online apps that can be used via any Internet-connected computer, allowing app data to be saved online + automatically synced to a user's smartphone (or ANY other device, for that matter, including a FOOLeo). Even better would be to offer a full-featured suite of apps stored on a USB Flash drive that would allow the apps to be run temporarily (+ without any traces being left behind) on a host computer + then would automatically upload file changes to a user's personal space on Palm's server, save the data to the USB Flash drive + wirelessly update the smartphone/other devices in the user's profile.

THAT is the TVoR vision of the future:
1) Full-featured apps always accessible via either web apps or on a USB Flash drive.
2) Automatic saving/syncing of data to online server, smartphone, +/- USB Flash drive, and any other wirelessly connected device capable of communicating with a user's online storage folder.

The key is the software governing the data transfers. Hardware and OS become unimportant.

Wireless data syncing is so much more a significant idea in next-generation computing that Hawkins must be embarassed pimping this pathetic little FOOLeo like a played-out ho. Palm's apparent failure to realize Hawkins' vision is shaping up to be a spectacular failure. This would mark the third time the company has taken one of his brilliant ideas and failed to execute, leaving the door wide open for the competition to cash in on his ideas. Well done, Palm.

TVoR


How to get a FOOLeo equivalent for $24. SHOCKER!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 11:47:54 PM # Q
http://www.junefabrics.com/pdareach/index.php

Control your Treo from your desktop, use desktop to enter data into Treo... hmmmm...

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
twrock @ 6/24/2007 10:21:46 AM # Q
TVOR, I still don't understand why the USB drive is so "desirable" in your vision of the future. There is no reason why one's smartphone can't do everything that USB drive can do and much more. Even a "completely stupid" phone can do whatever the USB drive can if it is simply equipped with "drive mode" and the other software you have mentioned.

If the smartphone is the "PC", it makes a lot of sense to me to have the data on that, not to carry around an additional "dumb" storage device that requires additional hardware if the data is to be accessed by the user. I can't even look at the data on a USB drive without connecting "it" (or its data) into something else. It isn't "mobile computing" if have to use another machine that I don't carry with me to minimally access my data.

Ok, maybe it's time for me to just give up on asking this question. It's your "vision"; have it however you like. However, in my vision I want a mobile PC (preferably with voice) that carries all my data, and lets me minimally access that data (and preferably edit it as well) in a reasonable format (i.e. large enough screen). It would also allow me to sync my data onto the web and/or with my other "base" devices (my desktop, laptop, or some other terminal device). I want to be able to work with the data on the mobile. I want to be able to pair it with my other devices so that data change anywhere is reflected everywhere. If what you are suggesting is included on the smartphone (the ability to run apps on a third-party device without leaving a trace), then all the better.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

TVoR lets the cat out of the bag: More hints of the FUTURE...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 2:27:27 AM # Q
TVOR, I still don't understand why the USB drive is so "desirable" in your vision of the future. There is no reason why one's smartphone can't do everything that USB drive can do and much more. Even a "completely stupid" phone can do whatever the USB drive can if it is simply equipped with "drive mode" and the other software you have mentioned.

The USB flash drive isn't mandatory - it would just be a convenient way of temporarily loading an environment of custom applications onto a host computer. Yes, the apps could instead be strictly Web-based, but that means an Internet connection would be mandatory in order to be able to work on a bigger screen. The apps could also reside on the (PalmLinux) Treo and then be accessed when connected to the host computer with a USB cable. If the Treo app is able to use PdaReach-like linking to the host computer and is (ideally) able to scale the Treo app up to fit the host computer's screen then all you would ever need is literally just your Treo and a USB cable. (Or even leave the cable at home if the process works over Wi-Fi.)

MotionApps has an application theat does basically this (scales to the host computer's screen size when the Treo is connected via USB or Wi-Fi) and hints at the Treo's future:

http://www.motionapps.com/mexpenses/_treo700p.jsp

This is an absolutely BRILLIANT concept, and plays perfectly into Hawkins' vision of the Treo as the PC of the future: apps and data residing on the Treo, but ALWAYS accessible from ANY computer.

I believe Palm intends to release a PalmLinux Treo with similar functionality . But first they need to ensure something like POSE works reliably under PalmLinux, so that legacy PalmOS apps are still supported. Then we'll see a series of PalmLinux apps that work both on the Treo and on a desktop/laptop screen when the Treo is connected. The biggest problem in all this is the SPEED at which Palm's software development has moved. If only these concepts had been ready for release 1 or 2 years ago...

TVoR

Reply to this comment

Hawkins' interview.

VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 3:34:02 AM # Q
Just finished listening to it.

He is right on the money.
- Instant on (not seconds like Suspend-mode)
- Ultra-compact (not 'small but still larger than Foleo laptops).
- Grab-n-Go. Feel compelled to use more often because it has a '0 harassment' factor (not a 1 or 2 factor for lappies).
- Light enough to constantly carry in backpack, briefcase, purse.

Something no one is talking about...
TOTAL SILENCE.

I actually switched to laptops because I was going crazy with desktop noises.

Foleo? 100% silent. No moving parts.

Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

I know many of you are like in my in that we have often not worked on something or played with something because it was too long to load, find or whatever.

I am anxious to order a Foleo.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
EdH @ 6/20/2007 6:58:03 AM # Q
Vampire Lestat said
Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

Uhm... actually, we don't, and I'm not.

The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users. Laptop users will never sacrifice the capability of a desktop OS. The question is, will people that currently travel without a laptop see value in the Foleo? I am thinking no, but we'll have to wait until it launches.

RE: Hawkins' damage control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 8:48:10 AM # Q
He is right on the money.

Vampy, are you well? Do you not realize that the FOOLeo that was announced is the equivalent of an alpha release? Palm is putting this "CRAPTOP" out because they can't wait on development any longer and are hoping that third party developers will complete the work that Palm's own codemonkeys were incapable of finishing. Get a clue.

- Instant on (not seconds like Suspend-mode)

Have you ever used a laptop? By the time you sit down and get ready to type it's out of suspend and ready to use. Instant-on is useful for PDAs where you are mainly ACCESSING data on the go, while standing/walking/etc. The FOOLeo will be used like a regular laptop - sitting down and ENTERING data. A 2 or 3 second advantage in starting a FOOLeo is meaningless. Think about it.

- Ultra-compact (not 'small but still larger than Foleo laptops).

??? Real Windows UMPC and microlaptops are available in sizes the same as, smaller than and bigger than the FOOLeo. And they aren't crippled by a lack of useful software.

Compare an IBM X60 to the FOOLeo: http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/thinkpad/3dtours/x60/demo.html

Compare a Fujitsu P1610 to the FOOLeo:
http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610

People that need REAL computing power will choose a REAL computer. The FOOLeo is a toy akin to the first two (alpha + beta) versions of Nokia's Internet tablet.

- Grab-n-Go. Feel compelled to use more often because it has a '0 harassment' factor (not a 1 or 2 factor for lappies).
- Light enough to constantly carry in backpack, briefcase, purse.

B.S. Real Windows portables are available that are smaller + lighter than the FOOLeo. Plus they actually have REAL software that allows users to do REAL work. "Harassment" is Palm not providing any software for a $500 device that should really sell for $300.

Something no one is talking about...
TOTAL SILENCE.

I actually switched to laptops because I was going crazy with desktop noises.

Foleo? 100% silent. No moving parts.

Now you're REALLY reaching for ways to rationalize the FOOLeo. I seriously doubt noise will be an issue for 99.99% of users. Try again.

Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

I know many of you are like in my in that we have often not worked on something or played with something because it was too long to load, find or whatever.

I am anxious to order a Foleo.

You are so wrong it's actually kind of pathetic. Frustrating will be how FOOLeo victims feel once they get hit with all of its software limitations and then realize they could have bought a Real Wimdows laptop for the same price. If you order a FOOLeo before trying it out in person (or at least seeing a few impartial reviews) you are a FOOL(eo).

TVoR

P.S. When you're posting a new thread it would be nice if you put all your thoughts into a single post rather than a stream of consciousness of 50 follow up posts.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 8:58:12 AM # Q
> ...You are so wrong it's actually kind of pathetic...

Indeed.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 9:42:00 AM # Q
The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users.

I really think this is an exaggeration. I own two laptops, one at work and one at home. The hassle of transporting a laptop back and forth every day coupled with the relative fragility of a fairly expensive machine resulted in my decision to buy the second one for home use. I'm still a bit "old-school", so my data travels with me in the form of a small USB hard drive. (I might eventually shell out the big bucks for a big enough flash drive, but the hard drive is small enough and convenient enough for now.)

I will readily admit that the Folio as I currently understand it (i.e. as I currently understand the specs and features and probable bundled software) is not the device I am looking for. BUT, it could easily be. It would take very little change for it to be the device I was looking for when I bought my second laptop. (Unfortunately asking for "very little change" from Palm is probably a useless endeavor.)

Instead I have a small 12" laptop that is still too heavy (in spite of it's 4 lbs. weight), too bulky, too bloated (primarily if I boot into the Windows partition; Ubuntu Linux is better, but still too much OS overhead), and too hot. How many of these issues would a properly configured/spec'ed Foleo take care of for me? Yeah, I know that there are "microlaptops" that come close to doing all of that, but in almost every case there is some "deal killer" that keeps me from seriously considering them (undersized keyboard, oversized cost, same old bloat, etc.)

My point isn't that the Foleo is "right" for me right now, only that it does "appeal" to me (in the sense that I can imagine how it could be "right" for me). I can also imagine how it might appeal to other laptop owners even in its current configuration. If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop.

So I've got two laptops, and this "type of" thing still appeals to me. They do need to spec it properly, include the "minimum" of software (particularly a rich web experience, a full PIM suite and support for "office" documents). Then "appeal" would probably graduate to "desire". And if they'd finally unplug their collective ears and start listening to the host of people who have been clamoring forever for a "Treo 480" (http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9470/#133892), they just might sell me two devices!

(Palm, can you hear me now?!!!)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 10:08:34 AM # Q
Oh, I thought I'd better clarify one thing before I'm misunderstood:

VL, I think you need to take a deep breath and slow down (as others have suggested). My post was not meant in any way to be an "encouragement" to anyone to go right out and pick up the Foleo the moment it hits the streets. Although I can imagine people who might really want this "first generation" device, I not at all convinced you are one of them. With how quickly you went from vowing to leave Palm forever over this failure of a product to believing that the Foleo is "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T", I'm afraid that less then 48 hours from the time you start using one you'll be back here bemoaning all of the limitations you didn't realize it had.

From everything I've seen so far, this Foleo is not being designed to be "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T." If that is what you expect, I'm afraid it will be nothing more than a terrible disappointment.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

The FOOLeo hardware is a joke. Give us online syncing, Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:17:35 AM # Q
If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop

SOLUTION:

http://store.migosoftware.com/product.php?productid=16135&SourceId=&cat=0&page=1

http://www.kingston.com/flash/dt_IIplusmigo.asp


********************************************************************************

As I've posted before, the true "innovation" in the FOOLeo concept would only be if Palm has figured out wireless syncing between smartphones and online servers. Palm needs to offer online apps that can be used via any Internet-connected computer, allowing app data to be saved online + automatically synced to a user's smartphone (or ANY other device, for that matter, including a FOOLeo). Even better would be to offer a full-featured suite of apps stored on a USB Flash drive that would allow the apps to be run temporarily (+ without any traces being left behind) on a host computer + then would automatically upload file changes to a user's personal space on Palm's server, save the data to the USB Flash drive + wirelessly update the smartphone/other devices in the user's profile.

THAT is the TVoR vision of the future:
1) Full-featured apps always accessible via either web apps or on a USB Flash drive.
2) Automatic saving/syncing of data to online server, smartphone, +/- USB Flash drive, and any other wirelessly connected device capable of communicating with a user's online storage folder.

The key is the software governing the data transfers. Hardware and OS become unimportant.

Wireless data syncing is so much more a significant idea in next-generation computing that Hawkins must be embarassed pimping this pathetic little FOOLeo like a played-out ho. Palm's apparent failure to realize Hawkins' vision is shaping up to be a spectacular failure. This would mark the third time the company has taken one of his brilliant ideas and failed to execute, leaving the door wide open for the competition to cash in on his ideas. Well done, Palm.

TVoR

P.S. Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 12:25:31 PM # Q
All good ideas/paradigms. Replace the USB drive in your vision with "whatever handheld device" and it makes plenty of sense. Maybe I'm not completely understanding you, but doesn't the data storage hardware you carry with you not need some form of "I/O" to be useful while you are mobile? Minimally you are going to need a screen to see it (output) and some way to manipulate/access it (input). In that case, why bother with the USB flash drive when the smartphone can be the data storage unit as well? This is why I can see the value of what Hawkins is trying to convince us: the smartphone is the "UMPC" of the mobile future. But yes, as you point out, the "software" is really critical in this model. All the synchronization has to "just work" and do it flawlessly and effortlessly.

Back to today. The Kingston is good, but not yet large enough to handle all my data (I've got a four gig flash drive, but that isn't big enough; currently I need eight or more).
The MigoSync is quite intriguing, particularly because is allows for different hardware options. I'm not sure if I want that "much" sync, but it looks like it is a good option. I'm just using MS's SyncToy at the moment, so the work laptop and the external hard drive get synchronised and the laptop at home just accesses the external drive's files directly. It's free and simple to use. My guess is that it might even do quite a bit more than I'm currently asking from it.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Hawkins' interview.
hkklife @ 6/20/2007 12:38:58 PM # Q
Flash drives are at the point now where hard drives were back in 1998/1999 or so...I went from a 1.2gb HD in '95 to a 2.1gb in '96 to a 4.3gb in '98. Throughout that progression I constantly felt cramped (especially when MP3s got big in '97/'98ish) by the ever-increasing bloat of Windows and all of the games hitting the market.

Then I got a 20gb in '99 and was able to breathe easier before the 45gb I got in '00 really made things easier and I haven't looked back since.

Right now 4gb on a single card in a Treo/PDA is the baseline for what I can comfortably "live with" as far as media/files/apps/TomTom map data. 8gb would be a lot nicer and I could probably handle everything imaginable other than my huge music collection with 16gb. Ideally, I'd be able to carry around my entire music collection at reasonable bitrates (~120gb) with room to spare for all of the mundane stuff.

Treos, iPhones, and everthing else on the market are still in their infancy with sub-8gb capacities, whether internal or on a removable card(s). At least as far as I'm concerned, we won't start having mobile "life" drives until affordable flash capacities hit 30gb+ and then, ideally, 100gb+.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Hawkins' interview.
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 1:38:24 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

Gosh, thanks, "Michelle" a.k.a "PalmDiva." I hope you'll keep stopping by, sweetheart! ;)

I like the thumbdrive vision except that, like Ron, I want the flash memory to be inside my smartphone where I can access it without a PC.

The online sync stuff TVoR is talking about is not the future. It's the present. It's done, it's carrier grade, it runs on all the Treos and it's free open source software. If you want it, just go get it: http://www.funambol.com. Helio apparently liked it enough that it's the foundation for the contact sync capabilities of the Ocean and all their future handsets.

And I second the motion that VampireLestat needs to take a cold shower. He's getting his expectations on the first version of Foleo way too high right now which means he'll only be back here cursing again in a few months. Vamp: I hate to say this, but I really don't think Foleo is aimed at uber-enthusiast power users like yourself. Not right out of the gate. Initially, I expect it will be aimed at doing just a couple of things well: email and office docs. Try to temper your enthusiasm (which I share) with a good dose of realism and remember that the Palm PDA you use today wasn't the first one Palm ever released.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Hawkins' interview.
BaalthazaaR @ 6/20/2007 2:56:16 PM # Q
Why carry a mobile storage device to transfer data from work to home and vice versa? Try setting up an rsync server on both machines and then you can just transfer what has changed back and forth. And since rsync figures out what has changed in the source location as compared to the destination and transfers just that, it is extremely painless to do so. All you have to do is run the command. And all of that is available for free (ships with the free cygwin download) except for the internet connection which I presume you already have.
RE: Hawkins' interview.
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 3:21:39 PM # Q
Why carry a mobile storage device to transfer data from work to home and vice versa? Try setting up an rsync server on both machines...

Well, for one thing, most offices have firewalls. rsync can work through a firewall if you know what you're doing, but most client offices I've worked in also have the remote shell ports blocked so you have to get a network admin for a special favor that he most definitely does not want to give you.

If you really want to be mobile with your computing environment you learn quickly that the key is to figure out how to do an end-run around the gatekeepers: the IT department, the network admins, and the wireless carrier. It's the way that Foleo lets you work around the carriers' obstruction of dial-up networking that I find particularly clever. I've never been able to get a laptop to connect to the outside world from inside one of my client's buildings: not through ethernet (without a password for the proxy server), not through wifi (without a WPA key), and not by tethering to my phone (without risking monstrous penalties from the carrier). With a Foleo I can do it because it can use the smartphone to send and receive email and just sync to that. I've evaded all the gatekeepers.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

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