Comments on: Palm Reports Q3 FY08 Results

Are you still using a Windows Mobile-based Palm Treo or have you moved to another manufacturer entirely?

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

Well, between you and me, I figured out how Palm's going to make this nasty little issue go away. They arejust going to EOL the remaining PDAs sometime within the next 3-4 months and they we won't have that matter to trouble us any longer. Take the PDA revenue right off the books and make everyone's life easier!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9627/palm-q3-fy08-conference-call-highlights/

Handheld revenue for the quarter was $36.7 million. 198,000 units were shipped for a 38% year over year decline. Handheld sell-through was 282k units down from 323k the previous quarter.

Palm's best strategy would be to consolidate the current 3 PDAs into 2 new models later this summer or early this fall. Have one run OS5.x for legacy apps/users and have the other debut Nova. Target it as a PMP/PDA/VOIP solution and let us poor sods be the paying beta testers. Then within a month after its arrival on store shelves, Palm'll have all of the bug reports and support feedback they need to ensure a painless, smooth Nova rollout on smartphones (or at least for a majorly comprehensive ROM fix for the first Nova smartphone).

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

Are you testing out the new Firefox 3 beta?

You also must be oblivious to the stunning success of the iPod Touch.

How can Palm be wasting time & resources when they haven't even LOOKED at a PDA-related update in nearly three years?

Go into any Best Buy, Office Max, or Staples and you'll still see plenty of PDAs in stock and ready to be sold. Best Buy was just touting the Tungsten E2 (itself a 3-year old model) in last week's printed ad.

And Treos (especially POS ones) make such p!ss poor phones that anyone who is a serious, ahem, "road warrior" will carry a dedicated cell phone anyway for mission-critical voice purposes.

So if Palm were to abandon TX production tomorrow, in what Treo/Centro would "resources" such as 320x480 LCDs, 128mb RAM modules, 802.11b radios and 3.5mm stereo headphone jacks go?

Also, we just established (thanks, Ryan!) here last week that those antiquated still contributed $36.7millioin USD to Palm's earnings last quarter. Wouldn't YOU like to have $36.7 by essentially shipping a product requiring zero support, development, or marketing $? I thought so!

So, yes, I KNOW Palm's not going to produce another PDA. But that doesn't mean that I and many others wouldn't purchase one if they DID.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

Palm V > Vx > Clie Peg T615C > T3 > Clie TH55 > T3 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p & T3 > Treo 700p & iPaq 210 (Windows-based PDAs are allowed at PalmInfocenter, right?)

Why do you think there are still "plenty of PDAs in stock and ready to be sold"? They're not selling anymore, that's why.

How about them not selling because everyone who would want a TX has already bought one in the last 3+ years? They'd buy one if it was an improvement over what they have. Or they would buy one as a replacement or even as a backup if the other one is starting to show it's age. I'm in no hurry to buy another one that is identical to what I have. But I may take the plunge if Palm announces that they're halting production. There are enough people in that scenario that bumped Palm's bottom line up by $36.7 million in one quarter as evident from their recent financials.

But most people would rather carry one thing in their pocket, rather than two, if the sacrifices aren't that severe in either function.

I used to think that, but the first time that one device fails leaving you with nothing makes you change your mind. I'd rather carry a PDA in addition to my cell phone than carry around a paper book as a backup for my contacts.

How about them not selling because everyone who would want a TX has already bought one in the last 3+ years? They'd buy one if it was an improvement over what they have. Or they would buy one as a replacement or even as a backup if the other one is starting to show it's age.

I used to think that, but the first time that one device fails leaving you with nothing makes you change your mind. I'd rather carry a PDA in addition to my cell phone than carry around a paper book as a backup for my contacts.

I understand that sentiment. It's why I still have my TX. The thing is, most people don't have the luxury of having both. If you didn't have a PDA already, which would you rather do, buy one device or two (remembering that it does you no good to buy it and keep it in your desk drawer - you have to carry both)?

The seeds of the plain vanilla PDA's destruction were planted many years ago. (Handspring, anyone?) Convergence does have its negative side (e.g., the possibility of the converged device flat-lining, as you noted), but there are also a lot of benefits (e.g., integrated Web lookup with contacts, integrated dialing, etc.). Phones aren't serious replacements for dedicated cameras (and probably never will be, because of the design limitations a phone puts on you), but as PDAs, I think they do reasonably well.

And I think that moving exclusively to smartphones is more in line with Palm's vision at this point. The Foleo really shows where Palm wants to take things: You carry the phone with your data, and use an add-on device for the screen, keyboard, and possibly storage of larger files. While I don't think the MacBook Air is much of a notebook, something of that type and form factor would be perfect as the next Foleo - especially with a solid state drive and access to the Internet through either a cell network or wifi.

There are some areas (screen size, entering in Graffiti) where the PDA is better than a phone. But I think that traveling light is winning out over those kinds of concerns. I think the iPhone is a demonstration of that. (Incidentally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Apple discontinued the iPod entirely at some point, to focus on the iPhone exclusively).

Now, I can very easily see Apple dumping the iPod Classic (HD-based) in favor of and all flash-based iPod Touch/iPhone lineup. But dumping the regular iPod? Hell no! It makes for a tidy little side business just in case things ever go sour with the carriers. Kind of like, you know, *GIGGLE*, what Palm SHOULD have done (and wanted to do with the Fooleo)!

P.S. Speaking of giggles, where's Seldom Visitor these days? He's been awfully quiet the past few weeks!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

Yeah. Like the woman I saw a few days ago with a shiny new Centro. Which she put away to listen to music from her *iPod Shuffle*.

Reality uncooperates again!

I must respectively disagree with you. Think of the, oh, zillions of happy iPod customers who would not want to sign their lives away to a 2yr AT&T contract to get an iPhone. On top of that, there are the habitual iPod upgrade addicts, who buy a new device each year and/or carry around multiple iPods containing a different music library. And let's not forget the folks who have purchased oodles of iPods for their kids. Heck, I know one family that won't let their kids use their CC so the kiddies run to the store each week with their pocket money, buy a iTunes gift card, and run home and go hog wild downloading. Those same kids have absolutely no need for a cell phone at the moment-and certainly not one like the iphone.

I heartily agree with you that kids have no need for cell phones. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the trend these days. The same parents who let their kids carry around $300 iPods apparently have no problem with the idea of their kids using cell phones, either. It's a sign of the times in which we live. Look at the aesthetic of the Centro itself. The color scheme of the AT&T model seems tailor-made for people not old enough for a learner's permit.

I'd also point you to the legions of people who did purchase the iPhone specifically because it is such a convergence device. Right now it's premature to talk about the death of the standalone iPod, because of the expense of the iPhone. But prices will come down. They always do. And you're only talking about $100 difference in the 16GB iPod vs. the Touch, anyway. That's not a lot of ground to cover.

And two-year contracts actually work in the iPhone's favor, in a sense: If the end of your contract is nigh, and you have the choice between carrying two items and carrying one, which are you going to choose? If you could get the same performance out of both functions that you'd get out of either separately, wouldn't you choose convergence? In the case of the iPhone, I don't think you really lose anything by choosing iPhone over iPod - with the exception, of course, of being tied to a contract, which you'd deal with with any cell phone contract. I would be fascinated to know how many people upgrade their iPods yearly, though. I can't imagine that number is that large. Why would it be?

Those people carrying around multiple iPods could keep their multiple iPods. There's no reason that would change. (It seems a little psychotic to me to have multiple iPods just to have multiple sets of songs, but that's neither here nor there.)

Finally, almost none of the arguments that apply to the iPod apply at all to PDAs. You don't pay a significant premium to go from a PDA and a dumbphone to a smartphone, people don't upgrade PDAs on a compulsive basis, and there's not the overwhelming demand for PDAs that there is for iPods.

Yeah. Like the woman I saw a few days ago with a shiny new Centro. Which she put away to listen to music from her *iPod Shuffle*.

Reality uncooperates again!

You do realize that that situation is entirely different from the PDA/phone convergence scenario, don't you?

If she took out her TX while holding a shiny new Centro, then you'd have a point. But the comparison between a Centro and an iPod Shuffle is absurd. My statement was based on the concept that people will go for convergence devices if they don't sacrifice one function too much. On what possible planet are you not sacrificing anything if you're trying to use your Centro as an iPod (Shuffle, Touch, or otherwise)?

And it's quite possible that, but for the decision not to include a standard-sized headphone jack on the Centro, that she would have used it to play music. You can get a 4GB micro-SD card for less than you'd pay for an iPod Shuffle.

The Sin Of Too-Fast Reading.

God, someone close the italics tag!!!

The Sin Of Too-Fast Reading.

God, someone close the italics tag!!!

My bad. Sorry about that. Hopefully that closed it. :)

There's no reason to buy/manage/charge/carry/sync/fight/fumble with 2+ devices when ONE Smartphone can do it all.

why wait until june? aren't a bunch out already?

The iPhone/iPod Touch are lousy PDAs (IMO). Spectacular web browsers, photo viewers, video viewers, and music machines, yes. But lousy for hardcore PIM/data-entry functions that POS still blows everyone else out of the water with. And I'm still kinda/sorta underwhelmed by the iPhone from a "phone" standpoint, but that's another story.

POS devices are phenomenal PIM/multifunction machines that are hobbled by the usual OS limitations and hardware quirks/flaws/stinginess. They also make lousy telephones but that's also another story.

Right now, sad to say, the higher-end BB & WM devices are probably doing the best job of actually checking off all of the boxes that make for a compelling converged devices (wi-fi, GPS etc). The new Sony Ericsson Xperia X1, for certain, looks to finally be THE smartphone that can replace a high-end dedicated PDA for most users. Of course, from a usability standpoint, WinMob still has a loooong way to go IMO.

My point about Palm missing the boat in regards to multimedia is that despite their flaws, the Treo/Centro are TANTALIZINGLY close to being at least semi-decent multimedia machines. The software side of things (PTunes Deuxe, TCPMP/CorePlayer, mOcean, Kinoma etc) is definitely up to snuff. If you can live with 4gb max card capacities, Palm really only needs to shoehorn the stoneage tech that is a stereo 3.5mm headphone jack into their devices to at least nail the audio side of things. Is that really too much to ask? It's not like I am even asking for A2DP standard or a 2.5" VGA screen. Just a little headphone jack w/ a decent amp (no buzz/humming, please) would make a world of difference. If RIM can do it then so can Palm!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

Waitaminute! I never SAID that the iPod Touch OR the iPhone were particularly good convergence devices!

Sorry if I misunderstood. I was responding mainly to this:

Had Palm aggressively pushed their devices as "MP3 PDAs" or "Multimedia Organizers" or "PMP Cell Phone Companions" or what you want to call it starting in 2001/2002, they could have captured a LOT of the teenybopper-type market.

It sounded like you were saying that by emphasizing the multimedia capabilities, Apple was on the right track.

I don't think that either the Centro/Treo or the iPhone are bad convergence devices. They just seem to be converging on different points. I personally think the Centro/Treo is a better convergence device, only because it seems to be (from what I can tell from about a month of use) a pretty good phone. (I want my Bluetooh voice dialing, but aside from that, I mean...). The iPhone, from most of what I've heard, is a mediocre phone. The lack of voice dialing and tactile keys are both deal-breakers, as far as I'm concerned. And the reception with iPhones is apparently not stellar, either.

There are some areas (screen size, entering in Graffiti) where the PDA is better than a phone. But I think that traveling light is winning out over those kinds of concerns. I think the iPhone is a demonstration of that.

In what way couldn't the iPhone (large screen and touch entry) be a good PDA as well as a good phone? Is it just because Apple chose not to put the software into it to make it a good PDA? But it isn't that they couldn't have done so. A number of us hoped that the SDK would really open it up so that third-party developers could fill the gaps, but I'm less convinced that is going to happen now that we know what Apple means by "open".
(http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,62039219,00.htm)

Obviously Palm already had the ability to make a good "PDA-centric" smartphone years ago, but for some incomprehensible reason they chose to stick with only one form factor and never delivered the converged device a number of us were waiting for. (Long before the iPhone was announced we were telling Palm we wanted that form factor; IMO, Apple proved us right.) There is a wide market out there, and people have a very wide variety of perceived needs. No one smartphone is going to satisfy everyone.

Regarding the lady with a Centro and an iPod Shuffle, it' simple. She already owned the Shuffle and had her favorite tracks all loaded and was used to using that device. Why should she change her habit when it would mean having to figure out how to move all of that music over to the Centro? What a hassle. Besides, the Shuffle is so tiny as to be perceived as no additional "baggage", and she can't even use her standard headphones on the Centro!

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

The iPhone isn't a smartphone ....

While it certainly offers the best user experience for a low-end feature phone ever, in terms of the things it actually does out of the box, it's really less capable than most phones which carriers give away for free.

As you say, you can view attachments to email (documents and photographs, etc.), but there doesn't seem to be any way to save those attachments separately from the message they're attached to, or do anything else with them. You can't use a photo you've been mailed, or one you've taken with the iPhone's own camera, as wallpaper; you can't add your own ring tones to the ones provided by Apple; you have to jailbreak your iPhone and add a new plug-in to download and save files from within Safari.

There's a pretty lengthy list of things you can't do with the iPhone that are absolutely commonplace on pretty much every low-end feature phone around. Steve doesn't think you need to do any of that stuff, and if you think otherwise, tough, you're mistaken.

No doubt this situation will improve somewhat when the SDK goes live in June, but with Apple sending out "don't call us, we'll call you" notes to the vast majority of developers (after strongly implying that things would be more open, leaving developers in a position where they can't even put their own program on their own iPhone), as well as the other (numerous) limitations of the iPhone SDK, the improvement may be more limited than folks are hoping. We'll see.

http://community.investopedia.com/news/IA/2008/Palm_The_Little_Engine_That_Couldnt.aspx?partner=YahooSA

Palm: The Little Engine That Couldn't

Since Palm can't be expected to come out with a "wow factor" technodazzle product like the iPhone, it only has the price card to play. And that's what the Centro is all about. At $99, after rebates and a wireless service commitment, the Centro is supposed to win over those basic cellphone consumers that would like to upgrade to a smartphone, but can't afford a high-end product like Palm's own Treo 755. But the low-end of the market has also attracted other bigger players like Research In Motion and Samsung.

Brent

Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

The Centro is for a PDA user looking to upgrade? Absolute rubbish! Well, unless you are a Z22 or T|E user looking for a converged device. But anyone with, say, a T|T3 onwards will find any POS smartphone a definite step backwards in nearly every aspect unless having a removable battery and anywhere e-mail/web connectivity is paramount.

That's not necessarily so. For example, a Centro gives you these benefits, out of the box:

1) The aforementioned anywhere web/e-mail
2) Smaller size (admittedly a mixed blessing - see below)
3) One device for 3 functions (PDA, Web, Phone) unlike the iPhone, that can only deliver on two functions - at best.
4) The aforementioned removable battery
5) Camera (with video capabilities)
6) Vibrating alarms
7) LED indicator for charging
8) A keyboard built-in

#6 and #7 may not seem like that much of a big deal, but if you remember the older Palms, you remember how handy both the LED and the vibrating alarms were.

So what's the trade-off?

1) Small screen
2) Lack of Graffiti (unless you have Jot installed)
3) Lack of Note Pad (Where the hell did that go??)
4) Lack of access to some accessories (e.g, the cradle you used for your old PDA).
5) Need for a data plan (which can get expensive

Now, granted, for some people the screen will be a deal-breaker, outweighing all the other concerns. But that's not necessarily the majority of PDA users.

Let's just say I wanted to replace my TX with a smartphone. I'd have more luck getting the following "must-have" features (larger than 320x320 LCD, 128mb+ RAM, wi-fi) in a competing WinMob device or, sob, even the iPhone than I am on any of Palm's warmed-over smartphone offerings (regardless of OS).

As I said, if a bigger screen is a must-have, a Palm phone wouldn't be for you. That's a given. But going from a Palm to a WinMob device is potentially more painful than it's worth, depending on how much software you have to replace, and how many accessories you have to leave behind. (That was one of my concerns when I was considering what to buy.)

Now, let's talk wi-fi. I've got a TX, and I have to say I've found wi-fi mostly useless. It's great for browsing around the house, and it's convenient to sync over the network, but wi-fi coverage is meager once you get out of major metropolitan areas (e.g., NYC). And even at work, where they did have wi-fi, if they've got PKI tokens for security, you're screwed. I have yet to see a PDA you could plug a PKI token in to. (I know there's technically a way to get around that, but good luck getting your IT department to let you in without that token.) Now obviously, a cell phone wouldn't fare any better in a corporate environment with a PKI token structure, but with cell access, at least you've got a lot more places you can have access.

If the screen size is the most important thing to you, and you need PDA functions, obviously a PDA is the best choice. The memory issue may also be important, but you can always add a card, which somewhat mitigates that.

But if you can live with a smaller screen, a Palm smartphone has a lot of advantages as an upgrade.

As far as the iPhone goes, it's not a PDA, and it's not (as others have said) much of a smartphone, either. In the cool factor it might be a step up, but not in a lot of other (I'd argue, more important) ways.

Well, at least til June... hear that, Colligan? Pick up the phone, man, your DOOM is calling.

BTW, I haven't seen anyone carry a PDA in ages, either. I used to see them, too.

"Pick up the phone, man, your DOOM is calling."

Calling? We're well beyond that point now. Doom is already in Ed's office, sitting in a chair, smoking a cigarette, casually looking out the window, watching dissatisfied customers leave the building.

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http://www.theiphoneblog.com

FF - i thought the OP was being sarcastic and trying to compare the old predictions of death of PCs to the current predictions of death of PDAs?

Look at how sales have dropped since MS hasn't shipped a new version of Windows or Office in 5 years!

What are you talking about? Microsoft has had Windows Vista out for nearly a year. Office 2007 has been out longer than that. The fact that Microsoft is trying to force users to inferior and screwed up Vista and Office 2007 is what is depressing sales.

Vista is a mess with known driver problems (STILL) and other issues that have corporate IT departments pushing out their deployment as far as they can.

Microsoft really screwed up with Office 2007. They totally changed the user interface. Have you used it? I have and it stinks. They wiped out the menus and replaced them with "ribbons". No or very few keyboard shortcuts. You HAVE to use the mouse for lots of things you didn't previously.

I've had Office 2007 for over a month at work and it is so bad that I'm just about ready to ask my IT department to roll me back to Office 2003.

My 82 year old mother needs a new computer (she's still using Windows 98 God love her!) and I'm pushing her to buy a new one with Windows XP on it before the major retailers stop selling them in June. I'll have a hard enough time being her PC support person from 1200 miles away with XP let alone trying to help her with an OS (Vista) that I'm not familiar with.

@ Foo Fighter:
I kind of agree that people are sheep, but I think alot of the problem is just plain inertia also. They have something that is familiar and they want to stick with it. If some major manufacturers like Dell, Sony, HP, etc. would make a big push with a Linux box with really good basic office-like apps, I think Microsoft's screw up with Vista and Office 2007 really would give them a good shot at establishing a competitive market against Microsoft. But the boxes have to be at least as usable by non-techies (like my mother), otherwise it won't work.

Brent

Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

It's amazing how the fact that some people prefer a PDA irritates so many people. The wheel was invented long ago but you know what, I still use it and I still use my PDA as well. Go to www.newtontalk.net and see how many people STILL use their Newtons. I just hope there is the same kind of community available for the PalmOS once Ed scoops the final shovel of dirt on it. So go ahead and mock us because your more trendy. The PDA just happens to be the device that's perfect for me.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

>>>And no, I don't have a black and white TV. I traded it for a mobile TV with a 2 inch square screen. Who needs screen real estate anyways?

A bit contradictory there, isn't he?

Man people don't seem to get it do they?

No I don't use an NC, no I don't have a mobile TV with a 2 year TV contract, no Microsoft has shipped a Windows and Office update within the last 8 years.

As to the PDA being dead, a business has to provide enhancements to their products to get people to keep using them. Look at all the stuff Apple does for the iPod line... and these are just dime-a-dozen MP3 players, yet they can demand a high premium because they continue to deliver features, build hype and give their customers a reason to buy the next version.

Would more people puy a Palm Tungsten X with a 640x480 screen, good media playback, wifi, VPN, VOIP, a real browser, multi-protocol IM, facebook support, Youtube support, Flickr support, Internet calendaring, enough storage to act as a portable HD for all of your MP3s, photos, and documents and a bluetooth solution that allows net access from your cell phone???

Well I sure would. I think some of the iPod buyers would as well.

No it wouldn't! The only shelves PDAs will ever fly off is the clearance rack. Consumers DO NOT WANT PDAs, and it has nothing do with Palm's failure to introduce new models in this category. I don't know what further calamitous evidence is needed to convince the old timers here, but in time realization will sink in I suppose.

You guys just DO NOT realize that a paradigm shift has taken place. As Apple has just shown the industry, the era of pip-squeak PlaySchool embedded mobile operating systems is over. PalmOS, RIM, Symbian, even Windows Mobile will become dinosaurs. Advances in hardware have made desktop-class operating systems (and applications) on mobile hardware a reality. In the traditional tablet form factor that we associate as PDAs, UMPCs are slowly filling that role. At some point those devices will become as small a TX or Nokia 800. For pocket-sized devices, the smartphone offers far more advantages, and will become increasingly more powerful. The iPhone puts OSX in the palm of your hand.

We don't need PDAs or PDA operating system any longer... it's just another proprietary software platform that forces users to learn a different environment, and poses challenges in getting personal data out. I cringe at the thought of locking my data, even something as trivial as a simple shopping list, in an archaic Palm app when I can simply input it to a cloud-based service, accessible anywhere on any device. Six years ago the standard method for viewing new content on a mobile device was AvantGo. Then mobile web access on smartphones made that obsolete. Today, Apple is making the mobile internet obsolete by bringing a desktop-class web experience to handhelds.

Evolution. Move on, or get left behind.

With a desktop-class OS like OSX on iPhone, there is no middleware interpretation, HotSyncing, or data conversion taking place. I don't need special shareware to export my iPhone calendar into iCal or Entourage. I don't need special desktop software that converts my handheld's data into something my Mac will understand. The same OS that runs on my desktop powers my phone as well.

This is precisely why the industry (including Palm) is scrambling behind Linux. It offers a desktop-class foundation that developers can build upon. Unfortunately it also happens to be a tower of Babel. Palm has made yet another fatal mistake by going it alone rather than joining Google's Android alliance. When Google unveils its smartphone sometime this year, Palm is as good dead. No one will give a shit about Palm, its Treos, or its Linux-derived OS.

Bottom line: if PalmOS, with it's dated computing model that locks your data inside a crippled proprietary software environment using converters, syncing, middleware, etc. to move and extract it, is the way for you... then have at it. But I hope you enjoy living in a bygone era.

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

My Palm has been left uncharged in my drawer for the past year. For the record, even though that Clie's battery is shot, it still does some awesome things, like the universal remote feature. Sony was way ahead of its time with its products.

I'm not suggesting that Palm's product line and offerings were remotely attractive. They were boring, rehashed models that I didn't even follow when they were brand new. But just because Palm can't make a good PDA doesn't mean that PDA's are dead. As much as some of you will reject it, the iPod Touch is a PDA. It's an iPhone without the phone, and people have been eating it up. I completely agree with you in saying that there is a shift, and that people expect desktop-class performance out of handheld-size computers. Apple is offering that with two models, and plenty more to come, it seems. This all points to me that the market is there. Palm's failure as a business doesn't mean that an entire market segment is deleted. People still want desktop-class features in a handheld-size device, and a large portion of them don't want it to make phone calls or be tied to a contract.

Advances in hardware have made desktop-class operating systems (and applications) on mobile hardware a reality. In the traditional tablet form factor that we associate as PDAs, UMPCs are slowly filling that role. At some point those devices will become as small a TX or Nokia 800.

Foo, if you want to emphasize a point about segments and market acceptance, introducing UMPCs into your argument should be the lowest thing on your list.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

If there were actually pent-up demand for high-end consumer PDAs, I'd have to imagine that some company would be making, and successfully marketing, them. That doesn't seem to be the case. We'd be happy to write up a license for Garnet allowing some company to do so, if such a company existed; I'm sure Microsoft feels the same way.

So why aren't any companies making 'em? It's certainly not as though Palm's the only company capable of doing so...

(By the way, it's absolutely simple to get a smartphone without getting locked into a carrier contract: buy an unlocked phone-no carrier subsidy there, of course-and a pay-as-you-go SIM card.)

Foo, did I mention that I probably bought an iPhone before you did? I was probably three ahead of you in line. Trust me, I know what this device is capable of. Tooting my own horn, Palmsource titled me "Software Expert" and I wrote an article about web browsers. Now I own an iPhone because Safari is the killer app.

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with the price of rice noodles in Taipei? I stood sixth in line at my local AT&T on June 29, 07. What's your point?

As for horn tooting - I am a tech writer for Macnn.com /Electronista.com and now contributing writer for Wired's Cult of Mac. So what?

My Palm has been left uncharged in my drawer for the past year. For the record, even though that Clie's battery is shot, it still does some awesome things, like the universal remote feature. Sony was way ahead of its time with its products.

No argument there, but since we are speaking in past tense here, again I ask what relevance this has in this discussion?

[snip] They (Palm's product line) were boring, rehashed models that I didn't even follow when they were brand new. But just because Palm can't make a good PDA doesn't mean that PDA's are dead.

Yes it does. Even if Palm did refresh its PDA line they still wouldn't sell because there is no longer a market for these products - or to be more precise; the market that exists isn't sustainable, and is shrinking still. Consumers aren't interested in these devices anymore. Whether you choose to believe that or not is entirely up to you. Handhelds still serve a role in vertical markets. But as a consumer product the PDA doesn't fit in.

It all comes down to a simple business equation: Where there is demand, there is a market. Yes YOU want a PDA - but there aren't enough of YOU out there to keep the PDA market alive.

There is a very apparent disconnect between enthusiasts here and the broader market. You're making the mistake of assuming everyone else has the same desire as you. If you want a Palm TX2, then so do millions of other consumers, right? Wrong. You're a small niche segment of legacy users that continues shrinking each year.

That said, I have to confess I half wish Palm would launch a whole slew of new handheld devices if only to settle the argument once and for all. Or at least so I can watch all the "Well I'll be damned.. people really don't want these things." commentary as reality finally sets in.

Finally, let's be honest here, really. Ask yourself - if Palm did introduce a LifeDrive 2 or TX whatever... would you really want YET ANOTHER device running Garnet? The same obsolete software, the same antiquated user experience? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not even if Palm upped the ante with VGA screens, more memory, OLED display, or *insert feature here*. It's still lipstick on a pig - new cloths on the same mannequin.

As I said before, the age of proprietary mobile platforms is over. If I am to carry a "mobile computer" in my pocket, it's going to be the genuine article, not a half-based imitationware.

C'est la Vie

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http://www.theiphoneblog.com

Where's the Wifi support? How do I get CDMA support?

Where's the 320x480 screen? How thick is it? Does it have a standard head phone jack? Does it have a 4G model? Can I do push email without a data plan?

My Nokia E65 and N95 do VoIP perfectly well over any WiFi access point that's available to me. What are you asking...?

As far as CDMA phones go, if you mean US CDMA frequencies, you'll have to talk to Verizon. They're opening up their network to unlocked devices that meet minimal requirement, they say.

Where's the 320x480 screen? How thick is it? Does it have a standard head phone jack?

That would obviously depend on the specific unlocked phone you buy. Both the specific features mentioned are available on one phone or another. You probably need a WinMob 6 phone of some kind for the really big screen (the HTC Advantage has a VGA display), but thin phones and phones with 3.5mm jacks aren't really uncommon (like on the Nokia N95, although the bigger jack makes for greater thickness...)

Does it have a 4G model?

What? Does anybody...? What exactly are you talking about...?

Can I do push email without a data plan?

No, but why would you expect to? You can't get a pay-as-you-go data plan...?

News to me. You don't get a very good price rate, but you could probably shop around. And you could always use WiFi for your data connection, subject to being in reach of a usable access point.

What? Does anybody...? What exactly are you talking about...?

4 Gigabytes of internal storage.

Can I do push email without a data plan?

No, but why would you expect to? You can't get a pay-as-you-go data plan...?

You say I can have a perfectly good wifi connection. Why would I even buy a data plan? I might not even buy voice plan.

The only Nokia device I am aware which seems like it would be a usable replacement for a PDA is the N810. Are there any others with large screens, good storage, good media support and an open development platform?

My point was, however, that there's no necessary relationship between buying the (unlocked) smart phone that best meets your needs and getting into a contract with a specific carrier (except for. You won't get a subsidy on the hardware of course, and it sounds like you don't want it, but that can't be unexpected.

My point is that a smartphone is a confluence of compromises that make it a poor substitute for a standalone dedicate computing device.

The 810 probably comes closest to what you're looking for, from the sound of things. An OpenMoko Freerunner, whenever they become available would be a possibility, but I couldn't really recommend one unless you want a device you're going to need to be hacking on...

My point is that a smartphone is a confluence of compromises that make it a poor substitute for a standalone dedicate computing device.

Oh, every device you could possibly buy, PDA, smart phone or whatever, is a "confluence of compromises" in some way or other. If you're going to wait for something without compromises, you'd better resign yourself to waiting a while.

The iPod Touch is a PDA whether you care to admit it or not. It's a user-friendly device with easy access to data and the web, as well as a great multimedia machine. What else do PDA's have to do? I'm not understanding this logic:

PDA's are dead! There is no market for them anymore!
What about the iPod Touch? Isn't it selling exceptionally well?
That doesn't count! It's just a glorified iPod!

??????? Seriously? Is it starting to make sense that the PDA still lives on, but Palm just didn't know how to get it right, and Apple does?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

-Same TX formfactor but in solid black with improved build quality and a LED & integrated microphone added to the design
-1800mAh (minimum) internal battery. This is the 2nd most crucial point for me.
-400+ mhz CPU
-128mb RAM, 2-4gb internal flash volume w/ DriveMode
-Large DBHeap/cache
-BT 1.2 (from the Centro-Palm's (barely) best FrankenGarnet BT implementation yet
-3.5mm stereo headphone jack w/ better quality socket/amp/hardware
-Bright, white 320x3480 LCD from a consistent supplier (Sony?)
-Fullsize SDHC slot w/ one final hack to Garnet to work around the <4gb file volume & 32-bit addressing limitation
-Graffiti 1 standard. Or, G2 standard with a legit, supported, Xerox-licensed G1 plugin available for download for $10-$20. This is a biggie.
-802.11g + WPA if possible. If not, then 802.11b from the TX.
-Huge standard software bundle (DTG 10, PTunes Deluxe, Bejeweled 2) ala Centro
-No more intentional crippling for CDMA dumbphone BT DUN to try to bolster Treo sales. Have this thing work with all regular handsets (CDMA + GSM) for BT DUN and do whatever it takes to ensure it works with all of the popular handsets released over the next 2-3 years. With the carriers finally budging on their data plan pricing and coming up with all-you-can-eat pricing plans, now's the time to for Palm to kickstart the "mobile phone companion" trend. This would be my #1 concern, as doing this would likely get a lot of frustrated smartphone (especially Treo/Centro) owners happily back to two separate devices. The pairing/connection process MUST be fast, easy, smooth, and painless or Palm will end up with egg on their face in typical Palm fashion.
-Athena connector as a final parting gift to the the legacy owners
-$299 (MAXIMUM) retail price. Cradle in the box would be great but we can all live without it.

Palm could then release a version of this thing running Nova and sold at retail or even just on palm.com as a sort of "retail beta" to make sure the OS is ready for prime-time on their smartphones. Furture versions could be released with, say , a VGA or better LCD, VOIP functionality, WiMax etc etc. I still maintain that it's critical for Palm to keep some kind of a presence in the traditional retail, non-carrier retail channels, especially as long as they have such a small, static, underwhelming lineup of smartphones.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p