Comments on: HP to Discontinue WebOS Devices
In an absolutely stunning move, HP announced today that it plans to "discontinue operations for WebOS devices". They specifically refer to the TouchPad and WebOS handsets. According to the brief mention in the press release, HP claims that they will "continue to explore options to optimize the value of WebOS software going forward".
As an initial response, I feel that this is a knee jerk response to the lackluster worldwide response to the recent crop of WebOS phones (Pre 2, Veer, Pre 3) as well as the TouchPad tablets along with Monday's announcement of Google acquiring Motorola Mobility. My guess is that HP will choose to either aggressively court licensees to produce WebOS hardware or they may look to shift the platform to embedded devices such as printers and as an secondary "instant-on" OS for their PC line.
Article Comments
(115 comments)
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.
RE: The Day the Music Died!
RE: The Day the Music Died!
Pat Horne
HP's messages to those who ordered/tried to order August 20-21
Due to the significant price reduction, we experienced overwhelming demand for the product and are temporarily out of inventory. Please enter your email address below to be notified as soon as we have them back in stock.
***********************************************************
Thank you for your interest in the HP TouchPad
HP Small and Medium Business Customers
We have received unprecedented orders as a result of the tremendous discount offered. This is clear confirmation to HP there is huge interest in building a webOS community. We apologize for any difficulty you may have had in ordering on the web or through the phone this weekend; it was as a result of selling out of our current inventory.
Your order has been captured and you should receive a confirmation over the next 48 hours.
Additionally, some of our customers may have experienced a pricing error while purchasing on August 20th and 21st. We are in the process of ensuring every order is honored at the discounted price and will send you confirmation via email.
Should you have any questions, we can be contacted at 1 800 888 5858 option 1: Though we are expecting significant call volumes with extended wait times over the next 48 hours, we ask for your patience and we are committed to our relationship with you and to delivering the best technology solutions for you and your business.
Sincerely,
Your HP Small and Medium Business Team
RE: Future of this site
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: Future of this site
Long live Palm3ComHandspringPalmsolutionsgroupPalmsourcePalmHP/Palm!
Pat Horne
RE: Future of this site
What a shame....the Palm PIM is still the best.
RE: Future of this site
Personally, I am still continuing on with my other web businesses at MobileInfocenter.
In addition to PIC, for the past year I have been developing and releasing iOS apps and maintaing my news aggration sites. I'm still working on hitting the app lottery but if you have an iPhone or iPad checkout my stuff in the App Store. You can find all of my apps by searching for "MobileInfocenter" (no spaces).
RE: Future of this site
Good luck developing. I hope at least one goes exponential for ya.
Pat Horne
The Day the Music Died...
There is simply no reason for this to have happened. Palm once rocked the world with the Tungsten lineup...no competition. Then, it all began to decline.
Me and my kids all use iphone and ipads. But, I pulled out my T2 the other day and my 7 year old was wowed..."What happened," he asked. What happened in deed.
I'm am saddened today. So much potential wasted.
RE: The Day the Music Died...
Pat Horne
RE: The Day the Music Died...
Perhaps this site should be re-branded for generic mobile hardware/software reviews.
Getting rid of the Palm name was dumb, dumb, dumb.
Perhaps they'll spin off WebOS with the Palm name again, but then again, Palm was "only" 8 years too late with a new OS to replace FrankenGarnet.
RE: Getting rid of the Palm name was dumb, dumb, dumb.
Their conference call happening now, reveals they are 100% committed to WebOS' future. They are liars. Nonetheless, they will probably sell it or make a worse decision to license it. The company who legacy is gigantically buggy and bloated printer drivers has no business trying a software war with M$ and Goog.
At this point (post Palm, post HP) it needs to be put out to pasture.
* Lights fade out *
Pat Horne
Honestly, I'm not shocked at all.
One: HP has a historically terrible record of handling mobile devices. They tend to be either badly engineered, or quickly abandoned, or both. You'd be hard pressed to name a really unqualified success that HP has had in the mobile space in the last five plus years.
Two: WebOS was a dead man walking beforehand. Sorry folks, but it never had the cachet to overcome the fact that Apple and Google are the two big platforms. There's little to no room for anyone else unless you have an approach as revolutionary as Apple's and Google's were when they debuted. WebOS not only wasn't in that ballpark, it wasn't even in the same sport.
Three, the HP TouchPad just wasn't a very good product. Next to nobody was going to buy it when they could get an iPad, a Xoom, or a Galaxy Tab for the same price.
And last but not least, WebOS isn't going to be licensed to anyone else. Nobody is going to want to touch in this climate, doubly so after this has happened.
RE: Honestly, I'm not shocked at all.
HTC, Samsung, Google, or Apple could be potential buyers.
HTC/Samsung - an alternative to android and Microsoft.
Google/apple - patents and integrate aspects of webos into their respective operating systems.
RE: Honestly, I'm not shocked at all.
-HP sells the rather vast Palm patent portfolio to one of the parties mentioned by jca666us. But it could really be to any number of firms with $ to spend and a bit of paranoia. In this wild time of frenzied IP-related licensing and acquisitions, now is as good a time as any for a beleagured firm (HP/Palm, Kodak etc) to make a few bucks.
-HP sells the "Palm" brand to some relatively no-name Asian firm,such as ZTE, Huawei etc for use on low-end Android smartphones. "Palm" becomes another one of the "walking dead" CE brands such as Philips/Magnavox, Emerson, Westinghouse, Polaroid, Sharper Image etc.
-HP will release the TouchPad 4G in VERY limited quantities domestically. The 7" version will be canned at the 11th hour, or perhaps released as a wi-fi only device in extremely limited quantities (however many they have currently produced and have sitting in a warehouse somewhere).
-The Pre 3 will make its rounds overseas on a handful of carriers but not see an official US release. A shame, as it actually like a surprisingly decent little device. I see it ending up like the 128mb Centro, a seldom-seen but solid little device that was too little, too late. The entire remaining inventory of TouchPads will be blown out around the end of the year or early 2012 by Cowboom or Woot. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pre 2 and Veer have already been discontinued.
-HP will likely cut the WebOS team down to the bone and keep it around for another 6-12 months as it frantically seeks a buyer or licensee, maybe pumping out a few more minor TouchPad OS updates and bringing out a few connected printers, PCs or maybe a digital photo frame to market with "limited" WebOS functionality since those are probably already in production for the holiday season.
After the end of this year, I see HP getting desperate and selling WebOS for pennies on the dollar it to another firm with rather strict guidelines in place for how WebOS can and cannot be used. It will die a slow, gruesome death, kept alive by a few diehards and the Preware folks. Open-sourcing it would make too much sense. Perhaps Access wants back in?
-This is too big to be kept under wraps for long. I expect ALL SORTS of juicy "tell all" insider reports from disgruntled employees. Maybe some good stuff from the final days of Palm will be unearthed too. Perhaps now we will find out why Rahul Sood and company initiated the mass exodus from HP over the past year!
P.S. Adama brings up a superb point about HP's horrible track record with consumer products. They had a series of cheap-o cameras over the past decade that were always decent but very uninspired designs. Same goes for their digital photo frames and their short-lived flat panel TV line. Really, nothing from HP has excited me in a years other than some of their higher-end printers, scanners, monitors and a handful of memorable PCs (the first Envy machines and the awesome Blackbird).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: Honestly, I'm not shocked at all.
Dozens of companies are building very successful smartphones without any of said patents, and Palm hasn't had truly revolutionary new style of device that they had a lock on for many, many years. So why does anyone really need to buy out their patents?
Out of what hkklife outlines, my personal suspicion would be HP selling just the Palm brand to a firm that does generic hardware. HP's certainly not going to be using it, and it would be a good name to slap on some otherwise generic Android phones and tablets. So the Palm name might live on, albeit divorced from anything to do with the original platform.
Palm will live forever....
The seeds were sown for what happened today back more than six or seven years ago when Palm failed to get any OS past Garnet out into handsets. It just kept recycling the same idea in different form factors (Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 7xx, Centro, Treo Pro.....) and didn't get a radio out that could do more than bluetooth and cellular until way too late.
By the time Palm announced it's "next great thing," the Pre, it was way too late. Apple already owned the marketplace and WebOS was already an also-ran.
Now that Android has come on the scene, WebOS is completely irrelevant, and the handsets are completely inadequate. The developers have fled to Android where things can happen in a matter of minutes if not hours. For instance, when the latest over-the-air update to Gingerbread for the HTC Incredible (a handset already end-of-lifed by Verizon) was released this past Monday, the developers were all over it and by Wednesday there were already 3 flashable ROM versions for rooted Incredible users.
Palm developers used to generate that kind of excitement. I remember the big fuss when Garnet 5.0 came out. Contrast that with the yawn generated when the HP Touchpad came out.
There hasn't been anything remotely resembling "excitement" on this platform in way way too long.
I look forward to Ryan and the good folks at Palminfocenter putting their efforts forth in other ways.
RE: Palm will live forever....
Peace Out
Alan
RE: Palm will live forever....
The spinoff WebOS that attempted to carry on with loyal Palm users was not given any attention because the end plan was a Microsoft base smartphone.
That doesn't seem to be working for Microsoft either.
Yes, Truly a Study in Business schools in the future
ouchPad
http://allthingsd.com/20110816/ouchpad-best-buy-sitting-on-a-pile-of-unsold-hp-tablets/
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: ouchPad
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: ouchPad
Pat Horne
RE: ouchPad
FJH
RE: ouchPad
http://www.precentral.net/hp-begins-touchpad-liquidation-16gb-cut-99-32gb-149-1
RE: ouchPad
Pat Horne
You have to love biz types
Spend 12 months working on a new form factor...
Pull the plug after 2 months of release. How the f** do you pull the plug so quick?
I swear if business folks worked 1/10th as hard on biz plan execution as the tech folks work on delivering products....
And to think that Microsoft has been working on Windows CE/Mobile/Phone for 15 years and still cannot elevate it above the "crap" stage.
RE: You have to love biz types
I'd guess the problem was giving Rubinstein too much leeway after the acquisition.
There was no cohesive business plan - and too much of a delay in releasing new hardware.
A better form factor for the touchpad and better performing OS and this could have taken off.
I keep reading everyone saying how great webos is/was and in the few times I played around with it, I thought the UI looked good, but the user experience wasn't all there - the big downside is the os performance.
I see licensing as a no-go, they need to find a prospective buyer for webos and all of the palm patents.
I bet the sale of the patents could more then pay for the 1.2 billion hp paid for palm.
RE: You have to love biz types
I don't think Palm patents are worth much any more. In today's technology Apple seems to hold the patents that matter and they are actively suing everyone ( maybe HP got a notice as well).
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-08-02/apple-lawsuit-puts-samsung-tablet-sales-in-australia-on-hold.html
As far as HP pulling the plug, a good lawyer could probably put together a nice class action lawsuit for the couple dozen people enticed into buying a TouchPad then left in the cold.
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: You have to love biz types
Honestly, when you realize you're at the bottom of a hole, digging deeper isn't a very good idea. The products weren't selling; the platform was losing ground; developers weren't coming around ... it's hard to fault the logic that says, "let's cut our loses."
This last bit of half-assedness is probably the only moment of sanity HP's management has had through this whole sorry mess of an acquisition.
RE: You have to love biz types
jca666us wrote:
Very disappointing news.I'd guess the problem was giving Rubinstein too much leeway after the acquisition.
There was no cohesive business plan - and too much of a delay in releasing new hardware.
A better form factor for the touchpad and better performing OS and this could have taken off.
I keep reading everyone saying how great webos is/was and in the few times I played around with it, I thought the UI looked good, but the user experience wasn't all there - the big downside is the os performance...
I STILL think Rubinstein is secretly answering to Jobs and was planted inside Palm to take the company down from within. In hindsight this guy has been as big of a disaster for Palm/HP as Yankowski was for Palm over a decade ago and Sanjay Jha was becoming to Moto before Google bailed them out.
Rubinstein can be faulted for SO much just over the past 4 years:
-Letting the strong Centro branding/product die on the vine with no transitional device from Garnet to WebOS. As I said back in 2008 or so, Palm could have easily and affordably taken the best bits of the 128MB Centro, put it in a sleek Treo Pro-style case, made a few cosmetic tweaks to Garnet and started the "River Stone" aesthetic off prior to the Pre. Just look what little ol' TealPoint software was able to do for Garnet with TealOS or, even earlier, what Saguaro did on Garnet!
-The huge delay betwen CES 2009 announcement and initial Pre availability
-Sprint had WebOS exclusivity FAR too long. The mobile landscape shifted immensely between CES 2009 and the arrival of the Pre Plus on VZW a year later (Moto Droid, iPhone 3GS etc).
-Lack of a non-phone WebOS device. Even an uninspired wi-fi only WebOS "Pre Touch" would have let users not on Sprint and/or overseas experience the ease and beauty of WebOS for themselves.
-Lousy hardware quality
-Lousy hardware specs, from the Pre to the latest TouchPads.
-Mind-boggling decisions to continuously omit certain features from WebOS--STILL no support for expandable storage. Support added for virtual keyboards, voice dialing, and Bluetooth HID devices only very recently. After 2+ years, STILL no native capability to create or edit office documents. I was able to do this on my Palm Vx in 2000!
-No cohesive, focused biz plan since the initial Palm acquisition news. Actually, it began years earlier, right about the time of the Palm/PalmSource shenanigans:
We're a PDA company! No, we're a Windows Mobile licensee! No, we're going to offer a Cobalt product! No, we're comitted to Palm OS Garnet! No, we are going to go with ALP! No, we're going to bring out the Fooleo! No, we're going to do our own OS!
We're Palm! No, we're Palm0ne! No, we're Palm again!
We are standardizing on SD! No, it's miniSD! No, it's actually microSD! No, actually we are going to go with internal storage onlY!
We're aiming for the fat middle of the market! No, we want to target 3D gaming! No, we want to target our extensive line of enterprise customers with WebOS! No, we want to put WebOS in every printer and every PC we sell.
We're aligned with Sprint! No, we want to be on VZW! No, now we are in cahoots with AT&T since they are losing the iPhone exclusivity! No, now we want to finally release a wi-fi product at retail since no carrier will have us!
We are doubling down on WebOS! No, we did not buy Palm to be in the smartphone business! We will "make things right" for our early adopters! No,we'll just cut the price!
We will launch new products domestically! No,we'll launch them in Europe first as "soft launches"! No, we will just let consumers do our marketing for us and keep saying "in the coming months"!
July 1st is the TouchPad release date! No, it's actually on July 17th when you will see the big push begin!
We are bringing out a TouchPad 4G, a 7" TouchPad, and the Pre 3! No, we are discontinuing all of the WebOS hardware!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: You have to love biz types
Gary
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: You have to love biz types
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
Jonny 'Trojan Horse' Rubenstein
-Letting the strong Centro branding/product die on the vine with no transitional device from Garnet to WebOS. As I said back in 2008 or so, Palm could have easily and affordably taken the best bits of the 128MB Centro, put it in a sleek Treo Pro-style case, made a few cosmetic tweaks to Garnet and started the "River Stone" aesthetic off prior to the Pre. Just look what little ol' TealPoint software was able to do for Garnet with TealOS or, even earlier, what Saguaro did on Garnet!
-The huge delay betwen CES 2009 announcement and initial Pre availability
-Sprint had WebOS exclusivity FAR too long. The mobile landscape shifted immensely between CES 2009 and the arrival of the Pre Plus on VZW a year later (Moto Droid, iPhone 3GS etc).
-Lack of a non-phone WebOS device. Even an uninspired wi-fi only WebOS "Pre Touch" would have let users not on Sprint and/or overseas experience the ease and beauty of WebOS for themselves.
-Lousy hardware quality
-Lousy hardware specs, from the Pre to the latest TouchPads.
-Mind-boggling decisions to continuously omit certain features from WebOS--STILL no support for expandable storage. Support added for virtual keyboards, voice dialing, and Bluetooth HID devices only very recently. After 2+ years, STILL no native capability to create or edit office documents. I was able to do this on my Palm Vx in 2000!
-No cohesive, focused biz plan since the initial Palm acquisition news. Actually, it began years earlier, right about the time of the Palm/PalmSource shenanigans:
We're a PDA company! No, we're a Windows Mobile licensee! No, we're going to offer a Cobalt product! No, we're comitted to Palm OS Garnet! No, we are going to go with ALP! No, we're going to bring out the Fooleo! No, we're going to do our own OS!
We're Palm! No, we're Palm0ne! No, we're Palm again!
We are standardizing on SD! No, it's miniSD! No, it's actually microSD! No, actually we are going to go with internal storage onlY!
We're aiming for the fat middle of the market! No, we want to target 3D gaming! No, we want to target our extensive line of enterprise customers with WebOS! No, we want to put WebOS in every printer and every PC we sell.
We're aligned with Sprint! No, we want to be on VZW! No, now we are in cahoots with AT&T since they are losing the iPhone exclusivity! No, now we want to finally release a wi-fi product at retail since no carrier will have us!
We are doubling down on WebOS! No, we did not buy Palm to be in the smartphone business! We will "make things right" for our early adopters! No,we'll just cut the price!
We will launch new products domestically! No,we'll launch them in Europe first as "soft launches"! No, we will just let consumers do our marketing for us and keep saying "in the coming months"!
July 1st is the TouchPad release date! No, it's actually on July 17th when you will see the big push begin!
We are bringing out a TouchPad 4G, a 7" TouchPad, and the Pre 3! No, we are discontinuing all of the WebOS hardware!
Nice smackdown hkklife!
- Posted from my Foleo
Fake Jeff Hawkins
Bradley feeling the (T)ouchPad™ heat
Wait for a higher resolution version...
P.S. Android UI is horrible. WTF happened with Matias Duarte and the UI revolution he was expected to lead at Android? Bupkis, baby. Bupkis.
Give me a BlackBerry PlayBook (best hardware of any tablet) priced at $350 and I'll consider dipping a toe into the hype-filled tablet waters. Oh wait a minute. Did you say Windows 8 $400 tablets coming "real soon now"? Nevermind.
Blowing out the (T)ouchPad™ at $300 is all good, but doesn't change the fact that the device is a big, heavy, plasticky, poorly-made (ever seen a WORKING display model?) piece of crap. "The Pre of tablets" - and I don't mean that in a good way.
$150 unlocked Veer? Bring it on! Veer = the new Centro (bargain stealth phone).
I suggest selling a CondomCovered Colligan special edition (T)ouchPad™ autographed by "Fast" Eddie C and his nasty band of boy toys.
(Now where's that legendary photo when you need it? Oh here it is):
http://blog.palm.com/palm/images/2007/10/01/img_00181.jpg
"We've learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone. PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in."
- Poofter Colligan
I will buy a TouchPad on clearance just to keep my Foleo company on theose cold winter nights here in Silly Con Valley...
- FJH
RE: You have to love biz types
Matias Duarte has NOTHING on Rob Haitani and the original Palm OS crew! It's stil a model of simplicity and efficiency. As far as I am concerned, Honeycomb takes a step back in nearly every way from Android 2.x and below, at least as far as intuitiveness and the overall UI.
Personally, I absolutely love love love my Galaxy Tab 7" 16GB GSM tablet. It's thin, light, easy to handle, and has superb battery life. Gingerbread is FINE for that particular device and all of the bad reviews for it were done last year when it was running an early, unoptimized Froyo build. Samsung's official GB update helped matters drastically and some of the available ROMs such as Overcome make it an astounding device. It has a solid camera and has better expandability than the 10.1" Galaxy Tab. I also like the Asus EEEPad Transformer. I will probably dump my Acer and stick with the 7" Tab for the forseeable future or at least until Ice Cream Sandwich appears on a solid 8" tablet.
I will give you the solid PlayBook hardware but its lack of built-in functionality and add-on apps is simply pitiful. I think it's a solid 2nd or 3rd place in 7" tablet formfactors, behind the Galaxy Tab and maybe the HTC Flyer (ugly in white but comfortable to hold).
I think Windows 8 is going to leave a LOT of people pleasantly surprised.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: You have to love biz types
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: You have to love biz types
The only omission that I see here is that all the experts who made this magic happen got nice financial rewards for their performances. :-)
I've often wondered if Ruby was a plant myself. The entire HP acquisition and surrender without a fight makes absolutely no sense to me. Are corporate dynamics such that insanity such as this prevails naturally, or are conspiratorial elements at work that bring this to pass? Like the false LeftVsRight charade in Washington that is so bungled that it is impossible that they are really trying, HP's insane WebOS road map appears illegitimate as a real attempt to succeed.
Pat Horne
How do you plead to these charges? GUILTY.
30) Becoming the carriers' bitch. Live by the carriers, die by the carriers
29) Corporate laziness, depending on others to innovate: color screen, fresh form factors, memory expansion, cell phone, MP3 player, TCPMP, TealLock, Butler, email, backup, browser
28) Stagnating culture of bureaucracy. Countless clueless middle managers crippled Palm: death by 1000 papercuts/emails
27) Arrogant-yet-incredibly-stupid leadership: "We've learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone. PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in."
26) Abandoning PalmOS users immediately after switch to webOS (Pay for buggy "Classic" emulator? F U Palm)
25) No webOS "iPod Touch competitor"
24) Willfully screwing developers. Repeatedly. And then begging them to come back and save the company. Repeatedly
23) Massive daily stock manipulations by shareholders/insiders/thieves
22) Backstabbing Handera/TRG
21) Purchase of Be for $11 million
20) Purchase of AnyDay.com for $80 million
19) Purchase of WeSync for $45 million
18) MultiMail purchase and abandonment
17) Chatteremail purchase and abandonment
16) Buying worthless SD card company "assets" from former Palm exec
15) Yankowski Golden Parachute
14) Yankowski Golden Threads
13) PalmSource "spinoff" (Separate companies. Yeah. Right.)
12) Palm name buyback for $30 million (with shareholder money)
11) Thousands of lame duck Palm Vx in the landfill (due to premature m505 announcement)
10) Palm land purchase for new HQ
9) Cobalt catastrophe/absent post-PalmOS 5 OS strategy
8) Cporporate policy of glacial incremental hardware upgrades
7) Overclocked Pre at CES 2009
6) Windows Mobile sellout
5) Third-rate hardware
4) No Palm-controlled app store
3) Pre marketing campaign
2) Failure to push turnkey Treo package as business email platform
1) Foleo: the vampire that sucked the blood and lifeforce out of Palm
- Fake Jeff Hawkins
RE: You have to love biz types
Tungsten T5 downgrade after 1 year of development. No WiFi, no mic, no LED!
Tungsten T|C with mono sound!
Tungsten T|W with no earpiece or BT, but a wire jack for headset sound only!
m505 with pitiful backlight!
Never listened to a million cries to create a large screened device with the tiniest possible bezel. Now it's the rage and they still have not delivered!
No WiFi while the world walked by and Colligen said "nobody needs it with 3G" which they almost never had either.
... keep em' coming ... this needs to be on a tombstone ...
Pat Horne
Funeral pyre
- Treo 600 Buzz.
BUZZZZZZZ (Hello) BUZZZZ... (I can't hear you!) BUZZZ
- Palm licenses Blackberry push software and mail client and does next to nothing with it.
- Dmitry Grinburg does everything awesome to fix PalmOS flaws and extend the OS and instead of Palm offering him a job, they sic their lawers on him for naming his products with the word Palm in them.
- SSS - It cannot be overemphasized how damaging it was to stick with small square screen that got smaller and smaller with no resolution changes
- 2.5mm headphone jack
- Athena connector, wait no... different connector, wait no... different connect. hey... you guys don't mind buying all new peripherals again, do you?
- LifeDrive - "let's just cut corners on components a little more. nobody will notice the lag on this. Let's just get it out to market."
- "Nobody wants a PDA anymore"
... and the number one goof:
- Palm NEVER listened to the mostly SAGE advice, product design specs, marketing campaigns, revival business strategies, etc. that were given freely and often at PalmInfoCenter.com by devoted fans of the platform who almost all could have run Palm better and whose *FREE* advice was worth a hell of a lot more than whatever Palm was paying their folks.
USR Palm Pilot 1000 -> Palm Pilot Professional -> TRG SuperPilot -> Palm IIIc -> Palm V -> Palm M505 -> Palm M515 -> Tungsten T|2 -> Treo 600 -> LifeDrive -> iPhone
RE: You have to love biz types
Excellent top 30. I remember many of these blunders well.
Peace Out
Alan
RE: You have to love biz types
Poopie wrote:
- Palm NEVER listened to the mostly SAGE advice, product design specs, marketing campaigns, revival business strategies, etc. that were given freely and often at PalmInfoCenter.com by devoted fans of the platform who almost all could have run Palm better and whose *FREE* advice was worth a hell of a lot more than whatever Palm was paying their folks. Let's not forget these other great Palm hits from the past:
I remember someone posted here 5-6 years ago that many of the Palm staffers read the PIC commentary and mocked/laughed heartily at our "advice" and "whining". I also remember the interview with Michael Mace back in '02 or so where he said that the PalmSource guys got a huge kick out of reading "Auntie" Cane's wishlist for OS5 (remember that one?). Such true words about the dedication, enthusiasm, loyalty, and, yes, plain ol' common sense bandied about by the PIC faithful over the past dozen years.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: You have to love biz types
Samsung Galaxy S II powered by webOS. Naughty!
QNX is poised to become BlackBerry OS 8 by November 2011.
Just how much is webOS worth if you can copy it for free? Ask "Tex" at TealPoint how long it took them to ape webOS using the legendary TealOS...
HP got sodomized, Access-style. Bend over, Apotheker-san!
- FJH
People don't want a tablet, they want an iPad
I recently bought a Barnes & Noble Nook Color and replaced the OS with a CyanogenMod 7 nightly overclocked to 1200mhz. Whole thing with external 32GB SD card worked out to about $340.
Now... I've been using this as my "learn all things Android" experiement. Nobody in my family wants to use "my" tablet. They all want to use the 1st gen iPad. Even I have a hard time recommendinng an android tablet. Even I thought maybe I should have spent $150 more and bought a 2nd iPad. Used the RIM tablet and thought deja vu foleo in more than a few ways.
Anyway, HP's right. Tough market. Low margins. Market already flooded with Android tablets that are more capable and cheaper (and I suspect that there's going to be a lot of android tablets for sale on Woot soon too)
So... fat lady sings. Nailing of coffin nails completed. Gold threaded suit retired. Stack of old palm devices in my office remains.
Sadly, none of my post-frankengarnet devices have ever matched the calendar functionality I had with PalmOS a decade ago. Just recently I installed Graffiti for Android and found that my Graffiti1 mojo was still there. Also, all of the calendar and contact history from my first palm forward has managed to live on and migrate forward to iPhone to Android to google cloud services.
(damn foleo - no key - copy/paste finger memory runs deep)
Enjoyed the ride. Thanks to Ryan. Thanks to the old fogeys who were at the center of PDA innovation. Enjoyed the anticipation of new devices in the heydey. Enjoyed having someone to commiserate on watching the slow motion train wrecks. Even enjoyed the wry banter that sometimes was more like heckling and trolling.
Here's hoping some of my posts from here show up the the business school chapter devoted to Palm
USR Palm Pilot 1000 -> Palm Pilot Professional -> TRG SuperPilot -> Palm IIIc -> Palm V -> Palm M505 -> Palm M515 -> Tungsten T|2 -> Treo 600 -> LifeDrive -> iPhone
Foleo Foolin'
Series and serial number, Sonny. Yeah right.
- FJH
Foleo Foolin'
Get your own.
Guess this news is good for ONE thing... people who want to ebay their Foleos.
USR Palm Pilot 1000 -> Palm Pilot Professional -> TRG SuperPilot -> Palm IIIc -> Palm V -> Palm M505 -> Palm M515 -> Tungsten T|2 -> Treo 600 -> LifeDrive -> iPhone
RE: People don't want a tablet, they want an iPad
- FJH (serving Fool(eo)s since... a really long time)
RE: People don't want a tablet, they want an iPad
Pat Horne
RE: People don't want a tablet, they want an iPad
"People don't want any tablet, they want a tablet that works as well as an iPad!"
How long before Rubinstein is shown the door?
Let this be a lesson to future company endeavours
They were successful because they did few things, but did them exceedingly well. Their philosophy of simplicity (counting screen taps then finding ways to reduce the number) served them well. They had 1 company that did both hardware and software.
Then the dumb moves started, splitting up the company, licensing, going with Windows mobile, not launching OS6, abandoning handhelds, management changes, abandoning products, changing philosophies (diversity of products lines, then down to like only 2 phones), etc.
My advice to any future entrepreneur, keep it simple, stay the course, don't try to reinvent the wheel, don't become overconfident to the point of blinding yourself to what made you successful, have ever lasting respect for loyal customers. It is better to do few things exceedingly well rather that overextend yourself with too many projects and end up in a sea of confusion.
RE: Let this be a lesson to future company endeavours
RE: Let this be a lesson to future company endeavours
RE: Let this be a lesson to future company endeavours
a) HP has lost credibility; they were big promoters of their new WebOS and they gave up at the first sign of trouble. That has destroyed investor and consumer confidence in them.
b) HP's share's dropped from 40$ to 30$ in less than a month. Today is going to be a disaster for them on the markets.
c) HP's 2nd quarter financial statement had horrible cash flows.
d) HP is trying to buyout a lame software co (I forget the name right now) for well offer a billion $ or something like that, some insane amount of money with no guarantee of return.
e) HP paid 1.8 bil$ for Palm, and now its worthless.
f) HP wants to get out of the phone, tablet and PC businesses. They have lost their minds. They have some crazy plan of turning towards "services".
Mark my words down, HP is about to implode. Watch their stock today collapse.
RE: Let this be a lesson to future company endeavours
Pat Horne
Palm is dead. Long live Palm!
The article's conclusion always baffled me, however, because nothing really NEW ever came afterward. Sure, I loved the Treo 650 (and then the Treo 755p), and I recognize that the Centro was interesting, as well.
But can we really say that these devices were qualitatively, radically different from the Treo 600?
Also, before the relevance of the following fades into obscurity, I happen to believe that Palm made the correct decision to go with Sprint exclusively for the Pre. It always felt like Sprint was the "true home" for PalmOS-based smartphones, so it was natural to go with Sprint for the Pre.
Finally, for those who say that Palm should have improved the Palm OS experience in the mid-2000's (say, through a non-phone device or tablet), could you please post any links or pictures of *what* such a device's UI would have looked like? As usual, my concern is that if Palm *had* engineered a transition-like device (something better than a Treo/Centro but something preliminary to a Pre) that the hypothetical device would have LACKED the very things that made Palm OS special.
Palm OS remains the ultimate for that most important of all smartphone activities: no, not the browser, but the calendar.
RE: Palm is dead. Long live Palm!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/19/webos_okthxbye/
On the Palm calendar, I wish someone would make an app of equal quality for the iPhone platform.
RE: Palm is dead. Long live Palm!
A transitional device could have been nothing more than a piece of hardware one or two notches better than the Treo 755p & Centro, with a few cosmetic & UI tweaks and MAYBE some minor cloud-centric features thrown in for good measure.
Device #1
Here's a rough guideline of what a transitional smartphone circa 2007-2008 would have looked like (with all of its tech having been previously done under Garnet on other devices)
-Centro "Pro" utilizing basic Treo Pro formfactor (larger battery & keyboard with a bigger 320x320 LCD) but maybe with a soft-touch exterior. Keep the IR, 3.5mm headphone jack & 2megapixel camera, of course. This would have addressed the vast majority of the complaints about Centro harware (battery too weak, screen too small, keyboard too tiny, lousy camera, cheap-looking exterior finish)
-CPU is unknown but anything that's Garnet-friendly and a step up from the 312Mhz Centro/Treo PXA270 CPUs. Maybe a 400Mhz Samsung CPU like the PDA32 has?
-128MB RAM, same as the Centro refresh. Use a faster-spec'd RAM if it improves sytem responsiveness.
-1, 2, or 4GB of itnernal storage (ala T|T5). Of course have a microSDHC slot in there as well. Instead of C&Ding him, partner with or flat-out HIRE Dmitry Grinberg to hack full SDHC support into Garnet, along with support for >4GB storage volumes.
-Since Garnet couldn't support 3G over GSM, go with EVDO Rev. 0 (Sprint & VZW).
-Port the GSM-only dialer/contacts/favorites from the Treo 680 and Centro over to CDMA. Tweak the basic PIM, email, and productivity apps to make them a tiny bit more finger-friendly, at least superficially (like what HTC did on the HD2 under WM 6.5).
-Figure out some way to get wi-fi in there. I am sure some clever workaround could be accomplished. Perhaps rebooting to switch between "phone" mode and "wi-fi" mode? Or perhaps BT is unavailable when wi-fi is on? 802.11G could probably have been shoehorned in there. If tiny Aceeca can do it, I am sure Palm could have done it. This isn't mandatory but it would have really helped.
-Full versions of the latest DTG, PTunes and possibly Kinoma, Bejeweled, and every other solid Palm OS app available. Build on the Centro's solid value proposition. Reach out to the top dozen or so developers who publish apps to address shortcomings in Garnet (Tealpoint, Hobbyist Software, Softick, Dmitry etc) and offer them jobs or contracts to shore up the worst parts of Garnet.
-Flesh out the device's OTA capabilities. Have some kind of universal auto-upgrade checker to see if newer versions of the bundled apps are available or a ROM update is available (even if it cannot be installed OTA). A device-based OTA app store/software installer should have been implemented years before (people still think Apple invented the concept of mobile apps!) Keep the Palm.net online backup thing active and beef it up with future migration to the Palm Profile for WebOS. Basically, gradually wean users off of Palm Desktop and get them gradually accustomed to the cloud. Maybe have an iOS-style mandatory "initial Hotsync" and then let them live in the cloud afterwards but still have the option for Palm Desktop?
-Palm Desktop & the Palm USB drivers should have been Vista/Windows 7-compatible from launch, but that goes without saying.
-Most importantly, work with SOMEONE to develop a better web browser! Maybe Opera without the Java VM requirement?
Device #2:
A final "PDA" but billed as a "mini web tablet" or "media tablet" or some such would have been a good way to respin the core Garnet PDA tech into a device similar to the Nokia N-series tablets but with more more available software and a substantial, dedicated user base. After all, aren't these tablets nothing more than glorified PDAs?
At any rate, the spectacular success of the iPod Touch showed there is room for exactly this sort of device (even more so 4-5 years ago). Palm could have easily had a device after the TX in 2006-2008 and then launched a "Pre Touch" in 2009 to bring WebOS to the masses. Also, a retail-oriented device like this would have kept Palm's branding alive at retail and not relegated to just carrier cell phone stores.
-A screen at least the size of the Tapwave Zodiac (3.8") but in a sleeker casing (either portrait or lanscape-oriented). Maybe 4" but in a slimmer TX-style chasis with reduced-size hard buttons (ala Sony TH55)?
-Even more finger-friendly optimizations over the above unit due to the larger screen.
-4GB internal flash (max supported by Garnet) alongside at least 1 microSD slot. 2 microSD (again, ala Zodiac) or 1 fullsize SDHC would be even better.
-Big battery (again, at least as big as the Zodiac's 1540mAh). Definitely needed to have surpassed the T3/T5/TX in this regard. Removable would be nice but not mandatory.
-All of the software tweaks & changes seen on the smartphone above. A more robust photo gallery & media player app would be key in addition to the browser & email apps. Contract SplashData, Kinoma, and CorePlayer/TCPMP would have been ideal candidates for reskinned versions of their superb apps. Also, don't overlook the e-book capabilities here. Palm was YEARS ahead with their eReader app/store (remember Palm's pre-loaded SD cards full of e-books?)
-Offer the device in a wi-fi/ BT version initially and if things went well they could have a WWAN DATA-ONLY version mated to an attractive unlimited data plan ($25/month, no voice or sms, just email/web), perhaps with Virgin Mobile or someone similar...for all of the Mike Cane types.
-Maybe throw in a cheap 1.3Mp camera if possible.
-Sell this thing for $299-$350 and beat the iPod Touch to the punch (most importantly).
Both of the above devices could have been developed, thoroughly tested, put into production and marketed for a fraction of what Palm spent on the Fooleo debacle. Also, keeping a pair of semi-modern Garnet devices around and in production into the WebOS era would have eliminated the need for the Classic disaster and given users who did not want or could not get a Pre still in the Palm fold. Oh well, too late for any of that now.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: It all started with the Foleo
USR Palm Pilot 1000 -> Palm Pilot Professional -> TRG SuperPilot -> Palm IIIc -> Palm V -> Palm M505 -> Palm M515 -> Tungsten T|2 -> Treo 600 -> LifeDrive -> iPhone
RE: It all started with the Foleo
The Foleo was Jeff's vision and probably one of the things the magazine "saw" in 2004. An interesting idea if Palm had been more than a run down doorstop distributor at that point.
Pat Horne
It all started with the Foleo
Too sad, I really liked my Palms, had all of them.
Bye bye Palm.
RE: It all started with the Foleo
The software & hardware division split.
When I read that press release and corresponding smoke and mirrors on PIC, I specifically remember thinking "do they think they'll get stronger by dividing themselves"? As bad as Palm's hardware had been lagging at that point, I figured the PSG would die fastest, and PS would live longer until M$FT crushed them in a head to head SW distribution war. They are both finally dead, but not in the order that I expected.
According to Eddie C, PSG saw the handwriting on the wall and immediately went to work on their own OS. He claimed that was WebOS, but I've wondered if it was not FoleOS, and WebOS began a couple of years later. I've read statements where WebOS was young and in dev about 2 years before release. Even tho Eddie told the 4 year development fairy tale in 09'.
I wish an insider would write a book about this slow motion train wreck.
Pat Horne
RE: It all started with the Foleo
-Zire 71 (first decent multimedia/mainstream PDA from Palm)
-Tungsten C, whose specs still stack up decently today. 64Mb RAM, 400Mhz CPU, wi-fi, high-res color screen and a decent keyboard. All it was missing was a 3.5mm stereo headphone jack (WHY!?)
-Tungsten E (another very solid "almost too good for the price" mainstream release
-Tungsten T3. The best-performing Palm OS device ever. All it needed was to be refreshed with wi-fi, a bigger battery and perhaps the removal of the slider. TONS of features for $399 at the time. It was so good, in fact, that a lot of places sold the T3 for over MSRP!
Add to that the Treo 600 (acquired from Handspring) and you had the last year that Palm was really ahead of the pack. Sony was also going gangbusters with their Clie line in '03....I remember they were practically releasing a new model every other month!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: It all started with the Foleo
Sad that this company was sabotaged by either idiots, saboteurs, conspirators, or the incompetent. But what a great valuable product they had.
Pat Horne
RE: It all started with the Foleo
IIIxe-->M505-->TT-->T3->Motorola Atrix Goodbye Palm
WebOS is alive!
We have opened the next chapter for webOS, and we understand that you must have many questions. Yesterday we announced that we will focus on the future of webOS as a software platform but we will no longer be producing webOS devices. While this was a difficult decision, it's one that will strengthen our ability to focus on further innovating with webOS as we forge our path forward. Throughout this journey, our developers will continue to be a vital part of the future of webOS.We will continue to support, innovate and develop the webOS App Catalog. Our intent is to enhance our merchandising and presentation of your great products and to continue to build our webOS app ecosystem.
As many of you are aware, we are currently scheduled to hold many developer events around the world. We are planning to continue with these events, however, due to the recent announcements; the nature of them will change. These updates will be posted on our events registration site this coming week. We are eager to present to you the updated strategy for webOS and to hear your feedback.
Lastly, I wish to express our sincere appreciation for your ongoing support for webOS and the many teams responsible for it here at HP. This is a particularly dynamic time in the mobile industry and sometimes tough decisions need to be made about not only what to do, but also what not to do. This has been one of those times. Together with our great webOS developer community, we are confident that we will meet the challenges ahead and build momentum for optimal success.
We will be communicating with you frequently over the next few weeks and we look forward to hearing from you throughout this process.
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: WebOS is alive!
RE: WebOS is alive!
Best bet - someone purchases webos for their patents and IP.
RE: WebOS is alive!
#1 HP's idiotic vision as revealed on 2/9/11 was stillborn. This assured the fact that WebOS would soldier along for yet another 6 months losing relative mindshare and marketshare, while Googs licensees released about 900 new phones over the same period. I still own a Pre+, but this was the day that I tapped out and gave up on Palm/WebOS/HP for good.
#2 HP has been shopping this thing to manufacturers for some time now IMO. Their lying fool of a CEO mentioned it, and when I saw that Beats Audio had left the fold for greener phone pastures, the writing was on the wall. HP knew they were not going to use it, bc they knew WebOS had the fork in it. The bottom line is that they have been shopping it out to the device makers and nobody wants it since HP imploded it.
#3 The idiotic abrupt canning of a $2B investment after only a year said "this platform is dead" to everyone listening. HP has no plan but say (they always lie) that they'll decide in two weeks. Hillarious! Imagine whipping up a $2B mobile strategy from total confusion in 2 weeks ... this should be precious!!!
HP. Put it out to pasture. Too many codependents like myself may be dumb enough to believe more of your lies and actually hang around to see what will arrive "in the coming months"! Now, just put down that jump drive slowly and step away.
Put a fork in it folks. It's over!
Pat Horne
BLOWOUT: 5 ouchPads™ for the price of 1. OMFG!!!
5 ouchPads™ for the price of a SINGLE iPad!!! Un...f-ing...believable.
Early adopters just got sodomized. Of course if you just bought one of these abandonware tablets you should marcfiringht back to the store, return it, and STRUT home clutching 5 - yes 5!!! - brand spanking new ouchPads™. Hilarious.
Of course the dumbass bible thumpers at precentral.com are wringing their girlish little hands asking themselves if getting a $500 tablet for $100 is a good deal. But at least one of 'em shows he's got game and receives the coveted FJH Award for "Comment of the decade":
By HPersons on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 8:03 pm EDT
Well, what would you have done with 4 more TPs for the same amount of money, anyway?
By sweet greggo on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 8:23 pm EDT
shiiiiiiiiit... I woulda gone all Oprah!
YOU get a TouchPad! YOU get a TouchPad! You get a TouchPad!
Brilliant.
- Fake Jeff Hawkins
BLOWOUT: 5 ouchPads™ for the price of 1. OMFG!!!
5 ouchPads™ for the price of a SINGLE iPad!!! Un...f-ing...believable.
Early adopters just got sodomized. Of course if you just bought one of these abandonware tablets you should march right back to the store, return it, and STRUT home clutching 5 - yes 5!!! - brand spanking new ouchPads™. Hilarious.
Of course the dumbass bible thumpers at precentral.com are wringing their girlish little hands asking themselves if getting a $500 tablet for $100 is a good deal. But at least one of 'em shows he's got game and receives the coveted FJH Award for "Comment of the decade":
By HPersons on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 8:03 pm EDT
Well, what would you have done with 4 more TPs for the same amount of money, anyway?
By sweet greggo on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 8:23 pm EDT
shiiiiiiiiit... I woulda gone all Oprah!
YOU get a TouchPad! YOU get a TouchPad! You get a TouchPad!
Brilliant.
- Fake Jeff Hawkins
RE: BLOWOUT: 5 ouchPads™ for the price of 1. OMFG!!!
Sold out everywhere!
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
I think there's a better chance someone will buy webos and their patent portfolio outright and put it to use.
Even if neither option materializes, I can see Microsoft, google, and apple taking inspiration from aspects of webos.
In one of these ways, palm will live on.
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
-The $99 & $150 TouchPad clearance sale was nothing more than a glorified bait & switch tactic designed to stir up some goodwill toward WebOS and clear the shelves of all TouchPad-related stock. HP is probably hoping that a lot of free word of mouth publicity over "cheap tablets" will make this thing sell out no matter what and become the next Nook Color or Viewsonic G-Tablet darling of the XDA & hacker community, thus increasing consumer goodwill toward WebOS and (hopefully but unlikely) inspiring some bold company flush with cash to enter into a purchasing or licensing agreement with HP ASAP.
Checking the forums online, it seems that VERY few people were able to get a TP straight-up at the clearance price without haggling/begging/cashier confusion/customer service refunds. What a joke! Most retailers just sent or are in the process of sending their unsold wares back to HP. Others just pulled the device or are clinging to the "old" pricing no matter what. HP cannot even operate a blowout fire sale properly!
-HP sells the Palm branding and maybe some IP to some semi-no name Asian firm (Huawei, ZTE etc) for use on a line of low/midrange
Android smartphones . This is probably in the works already and likely why HP was so quick to shutter the Palm brand over the course of the past year.
-The vast majority of the Palm patent portfolio will be sold to someone (my money is RIM for their QNX purposes) who is still actively trying to make a go of the tablet and smartphone biz.
-WebOS will live on for the forseeable future in some HP connected printers/digital photo frames. They will also probably license it to someone for use in some kind of non-consumer applications: in-car entertainment systems, medical, touchscreen kiosk, interactive signage etc. Think of how Philips' CD-I lived on for years serving such a role after it failed miserably in the consumer market.
-Support for legacy WebOS devices grinds to a immediate halt. At best we may see the release of one or two more minor updates for the TouchPad. Veer, Pre 2, and the older devices are already as good as dead. The Pre 3 will end up being the best WebOS smartphone yet but so few will see consumers' hands that it will just be a sad way to conclude the final chapter of Palm.
-HP will probably commit to keeping the WebOS activation/cloud servers going through, oh, the end of 2012 or 2013 or so (basically long enough to guarantee anyone who buys a Veer or Pre2/3 now on a 2yr contract isn't totally orphaned).
-Somewhere out there, there is a warehouse full of 64Gb Touchpads, 7" TouchPads and TouchPad 4Gs. I doubt these will ever be officially sold (maybe the TP 64Gb in tiny quantities) but a few will end up on E-Bay as Foleo-style colectors' items.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
Say HP is able to unload 500,000 ouchPads within a week. Word of mouth spreads like wildfire (as witnessed by over 10,000 posts in less than 12 hours) to a Slickdeals.com thread about the sale):
http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3220862
That's 500,000 potential buyers of the iPad, Galaxy Tab, etc. that suddenly now have shiny new hardware and will much likely be less inclined to pay $500 - $800 for another tablet in the near future.
Even more deadly is the effect of HP's insane pricing on what buyers will expect for their money in the future. A week ago the $500 iPad 2 seemed like a fair deal. But if Joe Lunchbox finds out that HP was selling something similar for $100 he will start to wonder why he can't get an iPad for the same price. And thus begins the INCEPTION: "Are tablet manufacturers ripping me off?" Did HP's Leo outdo DiCaprio in creating the ultimate "dream within a dream"? In one fell swoop HP might just have poisoned the ENTIRE tablet market as a parting "F U" to the competition. Brilliant? Or just reckless?
- Fake Jeff Hawkins
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
Gary
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
3 months ago, I thought Asus pulled the rug out from the entire tablet market with the $399 Transformer (solid hardware, microSDHC slot, IPS screen, lightweight, available keyboard).
Gary and FJH may have just hit the nail on the head. For the tablet-hungry consumer looking for a deal, it was a masterstroke by HP...ASSUMING they actually have 500,000 TPs to sell and are willing to sell them for that price. I have a sneaking suspicion that everyone involved will get greedy and frown on HP's kneejerk response. The cheap TPs will remain out of stock from HP and the vast majority of the excess inventory will somehow end up on Overstock.com, Cowboom, Dailysteals, Ebay daily deal, CompGeeks etc. and tagged as "refurbs" and priced somewhere around $250/16GB and $300/32GB
Now, if some disgruntled HPers decide to hop on XDA and help the vast Android user community port Honeycomb to this sucker...you will have utter madness that will make the run on Nook Colors earlier this year look insigniciant in comparison.
If nothing else, HP has (for the short-term, depending on availability & stock) totally brutalized all of the no-name Android tablet and e-reader companies (including Vizio, Archos, Asus etc).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
http://rootzwiki.com/showthread.php?t=3327
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
Is HP crazy like a fox or just crazy?
HP's stunt doesn't just affect the bottom feeder tablets - it affects ALL tablet manufacturers because in 1 weekend HP may have managed to significantly change what people looking at tablets are willing to pay. By creating unrealistic expectations they can sabotage the competition's sales. Immediately.
And as hkklife said, HP doesn't even have to sell all of the remaining stock for $99 and $149. By generating MASSIVE, instantaneous hype they have people suddenly talking about the ouchPad. Most of the people now posting about the ouchPad never even heard of it before last week.
So how much did this weekend cost HP? Say 100,000 sales averaging $200 below cost = $20 million. Chump change. It's interesting to note that both HP's ordering system AND phone lines all mysteriously went down on Saturday. Hmmmmm... Nice way to limit sales. Also suspicious is that if you dig deeper you'll find that many BestBuys actually returned MOST OF their stock to HP rather than blowing it all out yesterday. If HP truly just wanted to sell off ALL webOS hardware as quickly as possible why wouldn't it just let BestBuy do the job? Judging from the frenzy I witnessed on Saturday they could have easily sold every one of the 250,000 remaining ouchPads that BestBuy reportedly had in its chain. So what else might HP try to do with the ouchPads? How about starting next week you can get a 16 GB ouchPad for $99 direct from HP, but only IF you're buying a desktop or laptop. This kind of deal changes the ouchPad into a loss leader instead of just a loss. Alternatively, HP could extend the hype for MONTHS (and further damage iPad sales) by releasing say 5000 or 10,000 ouchPad's a day for sale, spread throughout the day. Instant massive ongoing website traffic, continued hype/word of mouth advertising AND damaging iPad sales (as countless keep trying to get lucky and land a $99 ouchPad instead of buying a $500 iPad. Devious. The weekend blowout was a great way to generate an INSANE amount of word of mouth advertising in less than a day.
Machiavellian marketing moves aside, Leo inept handling of the webOS failure has left observers slackjawed over his stupidity and his poorly chosen words wiped out BILLIONS from HP's cap literally overnight. He deserves to be shown the gate for his bungling of this sorry mess.
HP should have priced the ouchPad at just above break even point (around $400) from Day 1 and grabbed as much market share (needed to attract developers) as they could as quickly as possible. Adding WebOS to its laptops and desktops as a quickboot alternate OS or in emulation mode under Windows would have been a brilliant way to differentiate and add value to their lineup. Instead they tried to "compete" with Apple simply by pricing their products the same as Apple. That's a pretty cynical approach to competition that assumes that consumers are all idiots that can't tell the difference between products other than price.
I would never have considered getting an ouchPad when it was $500. Or $400. HP could have sold me one a week ago for $250-$300, though. But they didn't. Instead, I ordered 4 for the price of 1 on Saturday. Thanks, HP!
- Fake Jeff Hawkins
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
What killed it was HP rushing it to market before webos was properly optimized and throwing it onto poorly designed hardware.
no licensee is going after webos while the performance is as poor as it is.
$99 is about what it's worth.
HP is not crazy like a fox - just crazy.
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
-Kill Veer entirely. I think it is the sleeper smartphone failure of the year. Its weak sales didn't do anything to help keep AT&T's faith in the Pre 3. Instead of the Veer launch, they should have devoted more $ to getting a bug-free Pre3 to market in time for the anniversary of the original Pre launch in June in unlocked, AT&T and Verizon forms. I would say get it on Sprint by any means necessary but I don't think Sprint would take another WebOS device even if HP paid them to.
-Dig up some more $ to get one of the canned big-screen, all touch slab handsets ready to go and on the market before the end of the year. Let the Pre 3 remain the torch bearer for the portrait slider formfactor and get a landscape slider out ASAP as its successor.
-Delay the TouchPad launch for 2-4 weeks and ship it with the 3.0.2 ROM update standard. Launch it with the prices set at the ABSOLUTE maximum 16GB: $399 32GB: $450. $350 and $400 would be even better. Do all of the "buy an HP PC, get a 50% TouchPad" promos as everyone expected for back to school etc. Better to launch it as a loss leader than to end up burying it as a total loser like is being done now.
-Either offer EVERY TP buyer a free WebOS app store credit ($10? $15?) for the first 30-60 days on the market or just offer a few AAA-quality titles for free download for TP owners. Angry Birds HD and maybe an EA game or two.
-Do everything possible to either launch the TP with MS Office doc editing capabilities or push like crazy to have Quickoffice full version available shortly after launch.
-Force the codemonkeys to burn the midnight oil to get UI hardware acceleration going ASAP. This would have helped tremendously and has a been a thorn in WebOS' side since day 1.
-After the initial batch of TPs is sold, swiftly make the 1.5Ghz CPU spec standard across the board. Yes it would piss off the early adopters but still nothing like is being done now.
-Down the road, HP could try to carve out a tiny niche by offering "limited edition" TouchPads. The TP's assembly is supposedly fairly modular in comparison to other tablets. I don't mean built-to-order models or Claudia Schiffer cosmetic crap but actually charge a premium price for some of the WebOS diehards with $ to burn. Maybe offer Envy-branded TouchPads from hp.com with juiced-up (ie factory overclocked) CPUs or bigger batteries
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
webOS failure and why RIM matters
Nonsense. webOS has a good UI and several creative touches.
It is lacking:
- refinement
- a solid finalized development platform
- a complete set of APIs
- high quality hardware
- a large app catalog
- a robust developer community
HP had the money and the time to supply EVERYTHING webOS needed to succeed in 2011. Yet incredibly they sat around (Palm-style) and did nothing as the OS became increasingly overmatched by the competition. Look at what Microsoft has done with Windows Phone 7 over the past year and compare it to the development timeline for webOS.
The fact that HP would sell consumers products like the TouchPad and Pre 2 at full price despite knowing what utter crap they were shows the degree of utter disdain HP's leadership has towards its customers. If Apple had webOS do you think it would have failed? Imagine webOS on iPhone 4 hardware and with no issues with speed.
In some ways the death of webOS doesn't matter. BlackBerry has stolen part of the webOS UI and added it to the PlayBook as well as BlackBerry OS 8 running on QNX. If RIM gets their act together they can replace what webOS was. Only problem is that just like Palm, PalmSource, Nokia, Motorola and HP did over the past 5 years RIM is running out of time in their attempt to roll their own OS. RIM could have bought the webOS team and IP, but they don't need them. All they need is time, but iOS 5, Mango and Ice Cream Sandwich and Jello might kill RIM before BlackBerry OS 8 is ready for prime time. Whatever happens, RIM had better damed well make sure they don't release their new OS before it's ready. What was forgiven on the PlayBook and Torch will NOT be excusable on RIM's 2012 lineup of BlackBerry OS 8 phones.
FJH
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
Perhaps i should have prefaced my comments with "Under the previous Palm regime as well as HP's entire period of involvement with the platform, the TP (and WebOS in general) was destined to have no future". I meant that I only had hope of a bright future for WebOS until, oh, April or May of 2009 or so...and then for maybe a few months after the HP acquisition last year.
If HP had managed to address just the first 3 out of the 6 items you mention, WebOS could have had a fighting chance. I'd also add "carrier support" to the very bottom of that list but it's still less critical than the other items. Lack of carrier(s) support didn't impact the iPhone in 2007 and the iPad would still be a screaming success even if it was only sold in wi-fi flavors.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
RE: Can we get a consensus here?
Not true. HP lacked the ability to supply a competent parent company.
"Say 100,000 sales averaging $200 below cost = $20 million."
Actually they were estimated to have hit 350,000 by Saturday or Sunday, according to one article I read.
Will Aunty Mike Cane get an ouchPad?
Now bring on the $99 unlocked Veers!
- FJH
my thoughts....
Goodbye Palm, you are missed.
I still remember when I unboxed my III.
All my information, there in my fist,
what a wonderful time we had.
Through III, m130, to the wondrous world of connectivity
with my Treo 600, 650, and Centro
things just kept getting better.
Then the Pre came out, and oh how marvelous you were,
the promise of a bright future sullied,
hardware failures multiplied.
I had to leave, a robot beckoned,
(feeds me Gingerbread, and soon Ice Cream Sandwiches).
I am waiting, and continue,
futile as though that may sound now.
RE: my thoughts....
Have a nice day!
HP 41CX->HP 75C->Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->Pilot Pro->IIIe->IIIc->M500->M505->M515->TC->T3->T5->Treo 650P->Treo 700P->Droid>Pre Plus
RE: my thoughts....
RE: my thoughts....
Honestly, more than anything else, I am counting on some solid work to port some flavor of Android to it. True, there is a lot of driver work necessary but let's not forget this thing has the exact same Qualcomm SoC that is powering the Evo 3D, one of the top Android handsets currently available.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X + Palm TX
Avaliability?
Palm m125 > Palm Zire 71 > Tapwave Zodiac 1 > Palm Zire 72 > Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000 > Palm Tungsten T|3 > HTC Universal > ETEN Glofiish M800 > 16gb Apple iPhone 3g S (jailbroken)
RE: Avaliability?
But unless you're still into self-abuse you owe it to yourself to take the safe route and save your pennies for an iPad 3 (high res screen, apps galore and actually supported by its manufacturer).
How's your paper route going, kiddo?
FJH
RE: Avaliability?
Staples had the 16gb for $100 with a $50 instant rebate this weekend. Sold out everywhere and I wasn't paying attention. I would have bought a dozen and handed em' out like candy.
Maybe Todd Bradley is a prophet. HP not only landed in the #2 spot, but I bet they outsold the iPad2 this weekend. Way to go HP! Great time to expand your market share. :-D
Pat Horne
Touchpad under-spec'ed
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/08/19/hp-tested-webos-on-an-ipad-it-ran-over-twice-as-fast/
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
But yeah, the TP has essentially the same innards as a Evo 3D (1.2Ghz dual-core Snapdragon, 1GB RAM, Adreno 220 GPU). There is simply no reason for it to perform as poorly as it does. My Galaxy Tab 7" has fewer pixels to render but is also a year-old design with half the RAM and a single-core CPU and weaker GPU. Yet its performance runs circles around the TP in every practical day-to-day task and real world usage test.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X2 + Palm TX
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
HP really bungled this, but I interpret the whole "iPad 2 is more than twice as fast" to be speaking to ios 4 and 5's highly optimized webkit performance.
A big chunk of webos software stack was built around web technologies (hence the webos name).
If HP had been smarter about all of this, a better choice might have been to adopt android and graft webos UI on top of it.
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
Gary
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
Honestly, I can see immediately why people weren't rushing to pay $500 for this thing. The UI gestures are kind of nice, and I can appreciate the card-based metaphor for multitasking. But in reality the device is frequently slow, it bogs down in places it shouldn't, and the settings seem to be designed from the perspective of "We know what's best for you, don't go trying to do anything complex or that we don't approve of." Like trying to turn on Bluetooth visibility. Or beam a file to or from another Bluetooth device. Or set up anything by Bluetooth other than headphones, a keyboard, or WebOS phone. The browser renders nicely, but it often turns stupid, and won't let you access basic dialogs like file downloads. The Facebook app is terrible, and the app selection in general is appalling. After using it as a USB drive, it managed to "forget" all my installed applications.
I could go on like this for awhile, but it's rather pointless. But I can now say from extensive firsthand experience that HP never even had a remote chance trying to get WebOS to go mainstream, not when iOS and Android were out there. It's a shame, because the hardware's not bad. The screen is nice, everything is sensitive, and the specs are quality. But WebOS is clearly and painfully a 1.0 type platform, and frankly it holds the hardware back badly. I don't mind for $150, but I'll definitely be jumping ship the minute a reliable Android build is available.
Touchpad just needs to be optimized, you silly trolls
webOS and PlayBook OS and Android are all works in progress that have been released prematurely due to intense competitive pressures from Apple. If you want to appear even slightly objective update your tablet th the latest OS version and optimize the device as suggested below:
http://forums.precentral.net/hp-touchpad/293028-new-touchpad-heres-your-get-started-guide.html
Only an idiot, a troll, or an Android fanboy (or all 3) would suggest putting Android on a TouchPad would be good thing. Which one (or more) are you?
By now you and Geeko should be experts in spreading FUD and should be bringing your "A game" when Astroturfing on sites like Palminfocenter. Try again, Troll girl.
- Fake Jeff Hawkins
RE: Touchpad under-spec'ed
Secondly, the Touchpad should NOT be a "work in progress." We're talking about WebOS version 3.0. Three full versions should be more than enough time to make sure that you have smooth scrolling and can beam files via Bluetooth. This isn't the 4th grade school play where everybody deserves kudos just for getting on the stage. This is the real world, and if you can't compete, you shouldn't be in the market. WebOS is not competitive with Android or iOS in any meaningful way.
Third, neither I nor any normal person is going to go step by step through a TWELVE PAGE walkthrough on the internet to tweak a new device in order to get it to do the things it should have done out of the box. That sort of shit is why Windows Mobile got thrown out of the ring on it's ass by iOS, even though WM was the more technically capable platform for months after the iPhone was released. When you buy a new car from the dealer, do you expect to immediately go home, rebuild the motor, reconfigure the engine, and install the power steering and airbags yourself?
Lastly, the idea that anyone would need to spread FUD about a platform that's deader than Marley's ghost is absurd to the point of laughable, and it reminds me of the spin that Cobalt really wasn't dead, it was just transitioning.
WebOS is dead. HP knows it, other manufacturers know it, and the market knows it, which is why HP had to burn in excess of a hundred million dollars on getting rid of inventory they couldn't unload any other way. It's gone. To be honest, it was never really here, since it was about as much an asterisk on the Android/iOS marketshare battle as Microsoft and RIM have turned themselves into. WebOS had some interesting ideas, including the best vision of multitasking I've seen on a mobile OS, but the rest of their execution failed; platform, marketing, and to a certain extent hardware, though less so than any other aspect. In that light, putting a better and more capable OS on the hardware makes far more sense than trying to stumble along with only half the software that should be there.
Another Google TROLL in action... How cute!
So is Google paying you by the word these days? That's quite a mouthful of spittle you've foamed up there.
Okay, for starters... if you bothered to know anything, and I mean anything, about me before completely blowing off my comments... you would know that I am a HE, not a HER.
Whatever you say, Missy.
Secondly, the Touchpad should NOT be a "work in progress." We're talking about WebOS version 3.0. Three full versions should be more than enough time to make sure that you have smooth scrolling and can beam files via Bluetooth. This isn't the 4th grade school play where everybody deserves kudos just for getting on the stage. This is the real world, and if you can't compete, you shouldn't be in the market. WebOS is not competitive with Android or iOS in any meaningful way.
Alriiiiiighty then. Do you know how long Android has been around? And how much money has Google sunk into it compared to webOS? So then why does Android's user interface look like the dog's breakfast? And why is Android so laggy unless you brute force it with the fastest mobile processors? And why is it STILL a jaw-dropping security nightmare?
Third, neither I nor any normal person is going to go step by step through a TWELVE PAGE walkthrough on the internet to tweak a new device in order to get it to do the things it should have done out of the box. That sort of shit is why Windows Mobile got thrown out of the ring on it's ass by iOS, even though WM was the more technically capable platform for months after the iPhone was released. When you buy a new car from the dealer, do you expect to immediately go home, rebuild the motor, reconfigure the engine, and install the power steering and airbags yourself?
Methinks the Lady doth protest too much. So you - someone who supposedly has been using and writing about technology for several years - find it too onerous to spend 30 minutes optimizing a device that you spent your money on hoping to use it on a regular basis? Hmmmm... that's really quite believable. Let's see: you know that webOS was released prematurely and you know there is a SIMPLE way to improve the device's performance, yet you would rather entertain us with your overwrought screed + weeping and gnashing your teeth at HP/Palm. Obvious troll is obvious.
And speaking of having to to "go step by step through a TWELVE PAGE walkthrough on the internet to tweak a new device in order to get it to do the things it should have done out of the box", just how many custom ROMs are out there these days, made by frustrated Android users that were disgusted with the shoddy performance and chotic setup of Android's multiple fragmented flavors? I'll let you use all of your fingers AND your toes for counting.
Lastly, the idea that anyone would need to spread FUD about a platform that's deader than Marley's ghost is absurd to the point of laughable, and it reminds me of the spin that Cobalt really wasn't dead, it was just transitioning.
WebOS is dead. HP knows it, other manufacturers know it, and the market knows it, which is why HP had to burn in excess of a hundred million dollars on getting rid of inventory they couldn't unload any other way. It's gone. To be honest, it was never really here, since it was about as much an asterisk on the Android/iOS marketshare battle as Microsoft and RIM have turned themselves into. WebOS had some interesting ideas, including the best vision of multitasking I've seen on a mobile OS, but the rest of their execution failed; platform, marketing, and to a certain extent hardware, though less so than any other aspect. In that light, putting a better and more capable OS on the hardware makes far more sense than trying to stumble along with only half the software that should be there.
You and the other Android trolls use EVERY opportunity possible to bash iOS, Windows Phone 7, webOS, Symbian, BlackBerry OS, etc. despite how desperate you sound. You don't seem to understand that iOS just plain WORKS and does everything that the vast majority of consumers want from a mobile device. Likewise, the other platforms work just fine for the majority of their users. The ONLY reason Android gained traction was because it was free and the lazy, greedy cell phone manufacturers got played like a violin by Google. Unbelievably stupid of Samsung, Motorola, LG, Sony Ericsson et. al. to trust their entire business to the whims of Google, but now they know better. And like the kids say these days... whatevs.
Android is a pathetic UI on a JVM-clone that uses Larry Ellison's unlicensed code and unlicensed patents from Microsoft and several others. Android is "free" in the same sense that what people typically find in torrents are free. Google will soon need to pay the piper and will not be able to lose money on every Android device and "make it up in volume". Google is screwed right now because they competed on too many fronts too quickly, acted like a loose cannon and riled up a lot of BIG dogs that were best left... sleeping. A smarter, less arrogant Google would have licensed what needed to be licensed (the deal with Sun could have been paid for with the spare change Page could find in between the cushions in his sofa). They would have bought Palm for its IP + webOs UI and cherry picked its engineers, bringing the best into the Google Collective. Adding a few independent talented software houses like The Astonishing Tribe and locking down the fragmentation and security issues a year ago could have assured Android's dominance. Then they could have announced reasonable licensing fees (for "premium support" which manufacturers would have to pay since they have all but abandoned their old proprietary/in-house platforms). If they felt spendy or if manufacturers balked Google could have bought HTC and simply become the new Nokia. Instead, they offended every company they could possibly have offended and are about to be encircled and attacked on multiple fronts with every conceivable weapon that their enemies have in their arsenals. "The Art of War" should become required reading by every Google employee, starting at the top. The next year is going to be a bloodbath of epic proportions that will be lectured on in business schools for years to come.
Your precious employer Google is about to become a Fu*kedcompany, Ms. Brown. Keep trolling - your posts are truly amusing.
FJH
Road to Nowhere
i would not invest a penny into a dead platform. waste of money. IMO spend a little more and invest in a robust, alive, and growing platform.
good luck all.
X10 AirPad promises to be the best $199 tablet around, sports full USB port
Geeko trolling again. What a surprise.
I can't wait to see Android implode when they lose the lawsuit with Ellison and the others that are waiting in the wings. Manufactures were greedy and naďvely got suckered by Google - just as some of us predicted from the beginning. It probably won't even be worthwhile forking Android. Looks like Windows Phone is about to gain a lot of new users. And with iPhone coming to Sprint those of us who like Sprint's pricing and service don't have to be stuck using slow, buggy devices.
- F J H
FJH
Latest Comments
- I got one -Tuckermaclain
- RE: Don't we have this already? -Tuckermaclain
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -richf
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -dmitrygr
- Palm phone on HDblog -palmato
- Palm PVG100 -hgoldner
- RE: Like Deja Vu -PacManFoo
- Like Deja Vu -T_W
The Day the Music Died!
The end came even faster than I expected.
Nice work HP ... Not.
Pat Horne