Comments on: Linux coming to a Visor near you?

I'm about to order a Handspring as soon as I can, and I think
that the idea of having linux on a handspring is a wonderful idea.
I am a hardcore Linux user, and PalmOS is great, but Linux
is even BETTER. Good luck to whoever might be producing
that module, and make sure to make it RIGHT.
Thanks

Not only is the Springboards revolutionary in the "Palm Economy" but, that ability to over-ride the PalmOS is fantastic. Imagine a Linux "shell" specifically designed for a Visor. I hope RedHat or some other Linux distro sees this opportunity and makes a linux module asap.

linux on a handheld would be great... efficient OS, open sourced, and a large base of basic applications. Make a clean linux kernel, give it killer power management, and throw a simple gui and you could make a killing.

On the other hand; BEos could make a incredible handheld too. They have ATTRACTIVE INTERFACES down to an art. palmOS is fast and functional; but it could look so much better, with little to no performance cost.

I think if everyone gives the handheld OS a shot; and we have an enviroment which supports swapping our OS like candy, we could all prove the best for it. Maybe there should be a directive established to standardise the way these different OS's store there databases. That would allow us to go from OS to OS without the headaches we have as PC users.

What might be better still would be to make thin linux machine on a springboard. Give it a hardrrive cable. Give it a network card. and a power supply. make a tiny WEB SERVER. or File Server! and plug it into a visor to control it. Who says a springboard is supposed to be a slave to a visor; why not make the visor a slave to the springboard.

Check out http://www.uclinux.org/ for work already done getting Linux to run on a Pilot.

If I could get Linux on a springboard module, I'd buy it tomorrow. This would be a great option, in particular if the drivers/modules were optimized for the Visor hardware.

Okay, I'm into Linux. I'm into OS/2. I'm into basically anything non-Microsoft. I've used the Newton, I'm a long Palm user. But I utterly, completely, and totally fail to see any _tangible_ benefit to running Linux on a Palm? Frankly, it reeks of Windows CE. Is this thing a portable PC, or a digital organizer? Jeff Hawkins got it right the first time; be a PDA, not a PPC. PPC's are basically laptops, only smaller and more limited. If people wanted them, Palm would be long dead. We (people) don't want itty-bitty computers. We want human-sized computers with portable data-entry tools (ie. PDA's). Hence Palm's popularity. That is the _one_ thing that's truly right about Palm. And having Linux (which most mainstream users don't understand anyway) on a Palm is about the stupidest anti-The_Whole_Point_Of_Palm thing I've ever heard. Flame away.

gazo@mnsi.net

The OS on a handheld is not the be-all and end-all. It's all about what the device is useful for, and how well it fits its target uses.
At the moment, Palm OS devices are the best on the market: the OS is the fastest and most efficient, but the applications are streamlined, easy to use and well designed. It targets exactly what the vast majority of users want, in a simple, no-brainer format.

Where Windows CE has fallen down is that it doesn't recognise this, and tries to duplicate a PC. This is actually a good idea from a marketer's point of view, but lousy for the user.
EPOC is little more efficient, and has very powerful apps. One of its key advantages, especially to the mobile phone companies that have gotten into bed with Symbian, is that it is modular. These companies realise that the user interface is all the user will care about, and are happy to let someone else (Psion) take care of the backend.

I can see the how some people would get excited over having Linux on a Palm system, but I fail to really see the point. If you put the full complexity of a PC-targetted app onto a Palm form factor, you get a mess.
If you just want simple programs, why redesign the wheel?

Frankly, Handspring has made a major promise to the community with Springboard. Because of the way that the software for a Springboard is included on the module, even if it is a GPS or MP3 player or what have you, Springboard virtually _requires_ the Palm OS. So if Handspring is planning to release alternative OS handhelds, they'd better make _damn_ sure that these are Springboard compatible, meaning that alt OS devices can emulate the Palm OS. If Springboard turns out to be a one-trick poney for Visor only, and is abandoned as soon as the Palm OS is out dated, Handspring is going to have some very irate customers and vendors. If they tried to pull this, they'd have a hard time getting anyone to trust them again.

So it looks like Handspring is stuck with Palm OS and things that emulate it for the forseeable future.

I think it's an intriguing idea.. but, right now, a Visor owner cant even hotsync from linux.

Further, linux support for USB (which is what the Visor cradle uses) is non-existent. Therefore to be able to hotsync on linux would require a new kernel with the Visor specifically in mind.

Lets prioritize first!

-Yursil

Ok, but it should be able to run PalmOS software.

It is so great to hear such a direction. I just wonder when it is available

There already is a version of Linux that will run on an 8MB palm. How difficult would it be to recompile the kernel for a Visor?

Sweet, gimme.

I see no benefit. Linux would bring its own desktop legacy down to a PDA, much like Windows CE. Linux is a UNIX clone, and UNIX designers never even thought about handheld computers.

What does Linux bring to the table? Certainly not a large PDA application base or PDA-scale efficiency. Keep it clean and simple!

If Linux is made available most of the world will need RedGlove(as in Hat) support to use it. Keep it simple and keep it open.

I'm a Palm III oner and a long-time BeOS user. I just ordered a Visor Deluxe. You are all overlooking the logistics of the issue. Any alternate OS would have to run off of a Springboard module or somehow be loaded in to RAM as a patch to the PalmOS. If it runs via Springboard, it means no Springboard modules while running the Alt OS. Visors don't have Flash RAM which means that replacing the OS is out of the question. Also, as sad as it is, virtually no software for either BeOS or Linux is structured to support _every_ architecture. It would be almost useless to run any of the existing apps. Sad...but true.

WOW! wouldn't THAT be awesome!?!

so far, i think the PalmOS-powered devices are great. i went and bought a IIIx before i knew that Handspring even existed. had i known, i would have waited for the Visor and ordered one of THOSE.... hmmmm....

i'm impressed with what i've heard about the Visor so far, and i've been recommending it to everyone i know.

What you have to ask yourself is why you would like
to have linux on a device; if it is only to the same
thing palmOs is already doing, it is probably not
worth it; PalmOS is very well designed, usabilitywise.

If, on the other hand, you want linux to be able to run
all kinds of linux software (which I do), then you really
need to address the need for a keyboard of some kind,
working with many applications simply demand a quicker
way to enter data than handwriting can accomplish (and
I do want to use a real shell, which is a pain with hand-
writing). Give me a way to connect a one-hand keyboarsd
and I'll be happy.

BeOS makes more sense than Linux on the Visor. Linux is complex enough for the average user. The only advantage that Linux brings is that it is open source. I don't think that most users care about this. BeOS is just as powerful as Linux, plus it is 10x easier to use. Not to mention it doesn't contain the legacy baggage.

Although I am a current user of a Palm III I would have no qualms whatsoever about jumping ship onto the Handspring Linux Palm device bandwagon. No thanks on the BeOS or Apple oferings. Not interested. I have seen the future and the future is free OS's.

I just want integrated GSM wireless internet access, and a lightweight browser running on Linux.

I love my palm! But I am ready for wireless color web browsing in the same form factor.

Palm does not seem ready to support this nor are they letting us know this is at the top of their agenda.

A linux device based on Compaq's arm device with NanoGUI ( http://www.linuxhacker.org/nanogui/" CLASS=NEWS>http://www.linuxhacker.org/nanogui/ ), gtk, and a stripped down mozilla (supposedly the rendering engine can fit on a floppy) would be a very powerful little machine with LOTS of potential.

CE's shortfalls can really be traced to three main factors.

One- a handheld display does not have enough real estate to present a windowing gui. In other words one app at a time with only one document at a time visible.
Two-
Three- a. standard linux/mac/be/ rhetoricians aside I and I suspect many others find the start menu repellent as it brings up all kinds of the instability associations most people have with their windows desktops. I can't be rebooting my handheld while I have a client on the phone, whether CE is stable or not I do have that fear when I see the start menu.
b. The desktop connectivity portion of the WinCE device is probably one of the most attrocious example of bad MS software! They have apparently fixed most of the issues with 3.0 but that was released only last month.

I think we should take a step back and see why
PalmOS devices have been so wildly popular. Why
have the Pilots time and time again, been able
to outsell and outdo the hordes of WinCE machines
out there? Definitely not because of any hardware
advantages. Then if not the hardware, perhaps the
OS? So what's so special about the PalmOS. It's
got great stability, it's fast, and very user friendly.
Why? It's simple. Build an OS from the ground up,
the less you functionalize it, the less chances you
have to screw it up. So WHY OH WHY do we want Linux
on a Palm-size device? Because we can??? Don't get
me wrong -- I love Linux. I use it every day at home.
But the one thing I'm getting very very tired of is
now that the Linux advocacy drones have inundated us so
well, they're relying on us ignorantly using Linux
as a buzzword meaning the Jesus Christ of all operating
systems. Linux on my digital watch? Sure! It's bound
to tell time better than my existing one! Linux on my
toaster? Hell why not! I could program it to burn
a penguin into my toast! Linux is even a goddamn media
darling, yet I'd wager that 0.001% of people that have
reported on the superiority of Linux have yet to actually
install it. Linux is a good operating system for a
multi-user, networked, and yes, even a desktop environment.
Why the fuck do you need to log into your PDA!!!????
How the hell are you going to take advantage of Linux
on a device that's primarily marketed as an organizer?
What, you mean not everybody gets the urge to hand-
stroke and compile code on their daily commute! No!!!
Palms were successful because they built the OS from
the ground up to cater to special portable needs on
cost-effective hardware; (i.e you don't NEED 133mhz and
a 65k color TFT screen to take a number or memo)
Successful next generation PDA's will be so because they
improve upon the needs of portable users in the same
manner.

I would buy one in a heartbeat -

Assuming that a new OS was sought by Handspring in the future to replace the PalmOS why wouldn't they look towards the only other serious OS for palmtop computers and join Symbian to bring their expertise to the development of future versions of EPOC?

Surely, that would make a lot more sense than taking any desktop OS (no matter how good) and mold it into something more Palm-friendly. I love Linux as much as the next geek but I'm not going to advocate it to run on the Palm if their are better alternatives out there that already have the support of a community of developers who in many ways already resemble Linux developers. I'd rather see a convergence of technology than a reinvention of the wheel.

Linux opens the door to application development
for the handheld form factor by a very energetic
community of creative people worldwide. This means that
every Intel PC (RedHat and others have done nice ports
of Linux to the Intel platform) potentially becomes
a development system for Visor/Dragonball products.

And it lays the groundwork for future products in the
same form factor with other processor architectures.

The possibilities are no longer limited to simply
evolutionary directions. I can envision myself buying
new products without grumbling because they are
actually exciting. I might actually WANT to wear one
of these things. Where is Kansas on this product
roadmap!!!

Linux just doesn't do it for me.

Why not have an attractive OS on it, with no legacy baggage, and native support for things like antialiasing, a responsive and stable GUI, multimedia etc.

Basically, if they were available with BeOS on them, I would buy one in a heartbeat. I don't know if I want to have to configure mine before I can use it...

Lets face it, there never has been, and never will be a replacement for DOS.

Its the only way forward

Let me state that I'm a huge linux fan to begin with. I do all of my development and nearly all of my domestic computing (with exception to games) on linux. I figure if it can't be done on linux, sun, or mac, it doesn't need to be done.

I'm not aware of the benefits of putting linux on a handheld. In the desktop realm, linux means stability, versatility, and power. But in the handheld realm, PalmOS has shown that it gives users those things as well.

Maybe linux can offer some better networking features right off the bat, or perhaps something else. But you'd think it would be easier (and less expensive, which is the real buzz-phrase, no?) to port the relevant technology, instead of the whole OS, from linux to palm.

Unless there is some hands-down improvement over operation that linux can offer, I don't see a reason to port it. Sure, it'd be a neat project and I wouldn't mind seeing a handheld linux myself, but the advantages it would have over palm, if any, would pale in comparison to the advantages it has over windows.

-me
designcult@mediaone.net

So when can I send my check to Handspring...

At some point in the near future, the PalmOS will have to address better resolution, color and sound. I think this will be a significant leap for them to accomplish. This could cause a serious fork in the road. Handspring is positioning themselves for that time. I think Linux on the Visor would be pretty powerful, but it depends on having a decent GUI. I believe that the useful life of PDA's for most people will be 2, maybe 3, years. Since a lot of us use M/S Office, it makes it fairly easy to change PDA's. The information is there waiting to be pulled into another machine. Wether a machine runs PalmOS, Linus, BeOS or WinCE should be less of a concern. What matters is what it can do.

I see no point having Linux on the Visor just for the
sake of it. However, if using Linux provides benefits
such as extended functionality, increased performance
and better security, then I all for it.

cy4

I would love to see Linux get a handhold on the handhelds :)
Maybe then we could get some decent scheduler software for Linux
and I'd never have to use the 'other' OS again!

While the compact efficiency of Linux would certainly be a highly desired asset of a PDAOS, it has some very serious synchronization, power management, and plug and play issues that will need to be addressed before it can be seriously considered as a PDAOS. That aside, even the best Window Manager is seriously ugly.

A more appropriate OS would be the BeOS. Be has a far more advanced interface as well as better plug and play, synchronization and power management capabilities. Its nature would also allow it to be highly customized to the needs of an advanced PDAOS.
Be is also a dynamically advance OS for media application and presentation. I believe these capabilities will become critical to the core of future PDAOS’s as downloadable music and streaming video become more advanced in technology and more prevalent in the common vernacular.

But then again, what the hell do I know.

Will

That would be great! For me, Linux running on the Visor would
be the reason to buy it.

I agree that BeOS is THE choice for multimedia applications; it's the ultimate lightweight "hi-octane" OS. And since it's all written in clean, object-oriented C code (no, that's not a contradiction), it should be relatively easy to scale to a PDA-OS. Apps could be developed on standard Intel _and_ PPC desktop machines. And it's got an attractive GUI. If you're going to replace the OS, what else could you ask for?

Of course, I don't know how much multimedia I'll be using on a tiny, AA-powered (what DOES it use anyways?) device and palm-sized display.

Now I like DOS as much as the next geek, and I miss the C64, and I've even gotten RedHat running once or twice, but I think I'll just stick with Be.

When I first read this article, I thought, "yeah, that would be really cool!" But the more I thought about it, the more it seemed that this would be an enormous waste of someone's time. Sure, it would be really cool, but it would not be particularly useful.
I'm buying a Visor to replace the yellow notepads that I go through every week trying to keep up with my over-booked life. I don't need another Linux machine to do this. I can't imagine putting up with the pain of trying to write Perl programs with a stylus. I'm really unclear what Linux could do for me on a handheld device.
Just so this is not misunderstood as an anti-Linux post, I should mention that I have Linux installed on two machines in my office, 4 machines in my server room, one at home, and 3 in my test lab. And my web site runs on a colocated machine somewhere running Linux. I'm a big fan of Linux. I'm also a big fan of using the right too for the job, and this is not it. The Palm OS was developed in order to perform particular tasks. Linux was developed to fill a very different role, and it does not look anything like the role that the Visir is about.
Yes, it would be very cool to run a web site off of a visor. Definately something to put on your resume. But there's very little practical value to that.

It seems to me that this is definitely the way to go.
I have been (and still are) awaiting the introduction
of the Visor here in Europe(Sweden). They are not
available here for purchase just yet, sometime in the
first quarter of next year I think.
Anyway, compared to Palm OS on a Palm Pilot, Linux on
a Visor with it´s plugin modules yields seemingly
endless possibilities for soft- and hard-ware
applications, and hopefully better compatibility with
other Linux gadgets, computers and stuff.

I will await the Visor and Linux on the same in the
not-too-distant future.

/Anders
e-mail: andersn@isy.liu.se

It is so great to have these alternative whihc can have easlier expandibility

I need to buy a Palm or a visor. I'd rather buy Visor, BUT I don't want to wait. Lets get with it Visor, Lets see some discounts. Give me a reason for ordering a Visor & waiting. The new boys on the block should be more flexible etc ....

I think it's a great idea & definately worth looking into.

http://www.calcaria.net/

Linux" CLASS=NEWS>http://www.calcaria.net/

Linux is very adaptable. What we need to see is Handspring make detailed technical information on the Visor architechure available to the Linux community. That's what Psion has done for calcaria. Check out the screenshot! 8^)

I have both Linux and a Visor, but do not have
linux on a Visor. I am using W98 and so badly
what linux. I think they would make a great
pair.

linux on a palmos pda? great! now only if handspring starts making better visors... ;)

**runs over his visor multiple times and wishes he bought the IIIx**

Tommorow i am bying a visor becasue i need to upgrade from my Palm 2 and the sprigbord looks kinda cool. Also Linux look good on it However. Why bother people are saying firstly i have no idea about Linux and i know that PalmOS is amazing but Linux on the Visor would be FUN and thats the reaon i'd get it when it comes out, you could do a bit more but mostly i would have it for a laugth the only problem HOW DO YOU GET TWO SPRINGBRD MODULES ON AT THE SAME TIME???? if you could then Liunx and a modem, suddley becomes more than just fun...

I like the idea of using a different OS than the PalmOS, but i still wonder if you can overWrite the OS software based(like BeOS r5 did to windows98. I my self happen to be a BeOS fan and to have BeOS on my Visor that would be awsome.

Cool idea...
But will there ever be UNIX?
=)

I have a Visor and would love to see linux running on
a Visor. I presently have Linux at home on my server
and on my laptop. Linux on a Visor would be a triple play.

gsf

I'm not catching the drift on this?
Palm's are definitely not restricted to the Palm OS (as the flashable upgrades can demonstrate), and wasting the Springboard slot for another OS is almost LUDICROUS, in my mind. What can I do then????? Palm is not restricting their efforts on just the OS, as their development in Symbian (Palm on EPOC in Nokia phone) has proved. This is not a silly waste to me yet, but to say Visor has the advantage because of a really slow developing platform (BS Springboard slot) is plain DUMB!

Linux is availible in color on palms. Any Intel ARM CPU can use it, I.E. Compaq Ipaq....plus samsung has an mp3 player/palm w/ linux built in...its called Yopy w/ 206 MHz cpu and 32 MB of RAM.

I would love to see the Visor offer the Lynix OS. It would be even greater if I could run Lynix off a Springboard module.

Hello ... I'm getting tired of the Blue face (top, colored half) on my Visor ... do you guys know where I can get others?

Thanks!
-Christian
christian@wnrg.com

I own a Palm V,great concept,great size. I would like to see a color version running BeOS. But it needs to stay small and light like the Palm V or Vx not like these HP etc. weighing much more than a palm V or Nokia 8860 cell phone.

Pointless! Hype! Linux fan nonsence!
Fine, I'm a visor deluxe owner and have been for some time and seeing this I just *had* to say something! This is pure idiocy!
Linux for the Visor? BeOS for the Visor? EPOC for the Visor? MacOS for the Visor? These are credible ideas?
The PalmOS was chosen for the Visor for a reason. Its fast, small and effective. I've never had a problem with the interface or performence or anything really. The stability of PalmOS is great. The only time I've had it crash is from bad programming in 3rd party applications (unlike some of the afformentioned OSes!). Now I pose the question... why put an OS on a device if the one there is already perfectly suited for the job? It's even custom made! If you remember right, the PalmOS version on the Visor was custom made to suit the Visor to a T!

THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVING ANY OPERATING SYSTEM OTHER THAN PALMOS ON THE VISOR OTHER THAN HAVING IT FOR PURE NOVELTY!!!

So people, please get some sense and don't post all these "We could make a mini web server" (THAT'S WHAT PCs AND SERVERS ARE FOR!!!) or "Linux performance on a palm device" posts without really standing back and looking at the full picture, please. They just give me (and I'm sure many other people) a headache