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Comments on: Sony N710C Can Display 16-Bit Color

To many, the only thing keeping the new Sony N710C from being the perfect handheld is that its 320x320 pixel screen can only display 256 colors. However, according to Red Mercury, that limitation is caused by the fact that the Clié is running OS 3.5, which has no support for 16-bit color. According to Red Mercury's site, "the high resolution screen and graphics chip in the PEG-N710C not only supports 320x320 resolution, but also supports 16-bit color."
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Confirmation?

Ed @ 6/7/2001 4:36:39 PM #
I don't have a N710C to test this app with so I can't guarantee that it is for real. I have no cause to distrust Red Mercury so I'm running this article but I'd be happier if a few of you wrote in to say that Sixteen really does what they say it does.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter
RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 4:48:15 PM #
I have a N700C and have only one thing to say :
Waw ! Impressive !

I was pretty sure it was possible, now it is 100% sure :-)

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 6:08:58 PM #
Ed, yes, it is true. I tried the demo program, impressive, brilliant colors!

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 11:55:05 AM #
Yes, I have a N700C, and it really works, very pretty presentation of colors....great!

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 3:14:29 AM #
I just got a Clie N710c and love it. The 8bit display aready beats the m505. The Clie is so sharp and bright and has way better contrast than the M505 (I know because I returned my M505 in a week). But when I saw the 16bit test by Red Mecury. My jaw dropped. I then gave my Visor Prism to my fiance.

The Clie 320x320 Hi-res screen will change the expectations PDA displays forever. Hell the device as a whole will change the PDA world.

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2001 10:19:15 AM #
> I then gave my Visor Prism to my fiance.

Of course, if you really loved her, you would've given her your N710c. Better rethink the relationship. ;)

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 4:25:34 AM #
Yes, it works. The demo basically shows a bunch of pictures with color fades and transparencies that you can't fake with 256 colors.


RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/24/2001 3:52:12 PM #
Hi...I owned a PalmVx for a couple of years and when the Palm m505 came out, I traded the old Vx for the m505. I have had the m505 for 3 months now and although it does its job, it is disappointing. The screen forces me to have the backlight on all the time... I saw the Clie PEG-N710C and thought the display was great. I would wait for the N610C but can't tell when that is going to ship. The only thing preventing me from buying the PEG-N710C is the ability to upgrade to OS 4.0 and 16-bit color. The ability is theoretical but I haven't see any plans from Sony to support that. Anyone knows something else on that?

RE: Confirmation?
Ed @ 7/24/2001 4:33:59 PM #
The N610C and N710C will also require you to have the backlight on all the time.

I have absolute confirmation from someone high up in Sony's US division that they are working on a version of OS 4.0 for the N710C, though they can't tell me when it will be available. It will definitely allow the screen to display 16-bit color.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 2:08:15 AM #
How come the N 710c "is limited by the palm OS version" so it cannot display 16bit color, when the Visor prism can with the same OS version?

RE: Confirmation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 9:07:24 AM #
Handspring wrote a special version of 3.5 to let the Prism do 65,000 colors. They then gave this code to Palm to use in 4.0. Sony didn't use this on the 710 so it is 256 colors but once 4.0 is installed, it will have 65,000 colors, too.

released early?

edward green @ 6/7/2001 5:09:35 PM #
hmm. the clie seems to offer so much more than the packaged software can handle!

i wonder if sony rushed it to market?

RE: released early?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 6:21:32 PM #
I don't think it was rushed to market as much as they would rather devlopers create the apps that take advantage of the system. Probably like what Handspring does with their Springboard additions.

//Panda Fan

RE: released early?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:14:36 PM #
Palm has long term delivered crippled software package with their products (like the crippled calculator, Memo pad, lousy expense). Many people have to buy better software like ActNames, PMT... to replace those cripplewares. So Palm has always rushed all their products to market?

Awwww :(

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 4:31:09 PM #
Classic..! Another highly used justification down the drain. Does anyone need to run out and get a security blanket now?

Don't worry... I won't that mean old Clie hurt your m505 (or your ego), promise. ;)

2c



RE: Awwww :(
atrizzah @ 6/7/2001 9:06:25 PM #
Why does it matter to you what people think about the Clie? It sounds like you need a security blanket because you need to try to put down other peoples opinions on handhelds to make yourself feel better about yours. Let's face it, all of you who post on why some PDA is superior and try to put down others are just trying to make yourself feel better. Whichever PDA you like, you're not gonna change anyone else's mind about their favorite PDA by saying "Clie Rulez! m505 sux!". Ask yourself, who's justifying, the people who state their opinion on why they made their decision to buy their device or the ones who feel the need to bash the device they didn't buy?

Peace Out
Alan
RE: Awwww :(
Raishe_werk @ 6/8/2001 12:31:13 PM #
that is Clie Rewlz.. m505 sux ass.. get it rite!!! cheezuz

on the serious side, i agree with Alan. seems that half of the posts now are flame wars between m505 users and Clie users.
kick back, we all family and we all on the same side.

-Raishe
"Monster Pig kills Jesus
More at 11"

RE: Awwww :(
Michael @ 6/8/2001 4:36:29 PM #
Which is particularly ironic so they both suck. Handera Forever...

Don't try to convince m505 owners that their PDA is crap
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 2:38:49 PM #
Don't try to convince m505 owners that their PDA is crap (even though it is).

They will tell you things like:

"The m505 is thinner" - even though it doesn't fit the hand as well as the CLIE.

"The m505 is lighter" - by a massive 1.5 ounces than the CLIE.

"The m505 has a full metal case" - as if anyone really cares.

"The m505 screen is *adequate*; I can usually read it without squinting too much if I keep the sidelight on all the time" - even though the screen should be the one part of a PDA you don't compromise.

"The m505 lasts longer between charges" - even though the battery life difference essentially vanishes because most people have to keep the m505's side light on to be able to read the screen.

"I don't like proprietary formats like Memory Stick; I prefer open standards like SD" - even though the I/O standard (which needs to be implemented before ANY new SD peripherals are built) hasn't even been decided yet. And how long will it take to release peripherals after the standard is ratified? There may be a new memory "standard" by then.

"I don't need MP3, high resolution color, jog dial, or multimedia support" - just like some people used to say they didn't need color screens. Or 2 MB of memory was enough. Or 16 MHz processors were fast enough. Or rechargeable batteries were a bad solution. You "don't need" them until you try them and find out how nice it is to have the advanced features, whether or not you use them all the time.

"I think Palm has better customer support" - perhaps because they have so much practice with the defective devices they have released. Given the m505's profit margin, it should come with a Palm technician that is dispatched to your home to resolve any problems.

"The m505 is cheaper" - even though it's incredibly overpriced compared to EVERY other PDA on the market. The m505 is Palm's new Vx (a model legendary for fleecing those fashion-conscious people with a lot of money to burn.)

Palm expected to make most of their profits this year from the overpriced m505 and now that it is being rejected, they may go bankrupt unless they can produce a model with the screen quality of the new CLIE. Since they already buy their color screens from Sony (open up your m505 case and look who manufactured the screen!) they could beg Sony for the N710 screen, but this would mean abandoning the sacred Vx/m505 form factor.

Palm needs to stop pretending that anyone really needs to have a battery runtime of over 10 hours. Once they admit this, they will stop making design decisions that are destroying their company.

So please don't badger or make fun of the m505 owners. They're a dying breed and pretty soon they will be extinct. If/when you see them in public squinting at their dim screens, please don't laugh or point at them. Don't smile smugly or sneer or call them gullible idiots for being suckered by Palm's Zen of Palm/Simply Palm bullshit. Don't offer to show them your CLIE or iPAQ or Casio or Handspring Twist screens. Just walk away and leave them in their m505 misery.

Thank you

;-)

Palm m505: 65,000 blurry colors! Yes please!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 4:45:59 PM #
nt.

RE: Don't try to convince m505 owners that their PDA is crap
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 4:58:51 PM #
You've made the same mistake so many other people who post on this site have. You think what is right for you is right for everyone. If that were true, everyone would drive the same style of car, wear the same clothes, and eat the same food. It would be a very dull world. Fortunately, that turns out to not be the case. Some people value other things than you do. Please try to grasp the idea that that doesn't make them stupid or insane. For example, though you clearly don't, some people really do need their Palm to last more than 10 hours. I think long battery life is important. I'm not wrong to think this, just different.

Why the Hell do you care what I think about my m505? I'm happy with what I bought. You are happy with what you bought. End of story.

Don't feel bad, maybe you can return your m505.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 5:26:29 PM #
Too late? Oh, there's always eBay. Better sell it soon, before the price gets reduced (AGAIN) by retailers. Expect the m505 to be going for $300 - 350 by July.

Did you pay $450? How does that make you feel? At least you know you helped support Palm's payment towards their planned dumping of $300 million worth of unsold Palm Vx and parts.

Step right up folks! Behold the wonders of the 65,000 color screen! Tremble in the presence of the mighty (useless) SD slot! Marvel at the amazing (bigger than a Vx) form factor! Tickets are only $450, no $400, no $350, no $300, no whatever you'll give us!

There's one born every minute.

m505
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 7:02:43 PM #
You know, the reason there aren't so many m505 supporter posts arguing with Clie posts anymore is because we've grown up. You Clie users can't get outside your kindergarden insults. Go somewhere else to complain.

RE: Awwww :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 7:05:59 PM #

"Palm expected to make most of their profits this year from the overpriced m505 and now that it is being rejected, they may go bankrupt unless they can produce a model with the screen quality of the new CLIE. Since they already buy their color screens from Sony (open up your m505 case and look who manufactured the screen!) they could beg Sony for the N710 screen, but this would mean abandoning the sacred Vx/m505 form factor. "


Turn on your Clie. You'll see the Palm logo everywhere you look. Which do you think needs eachother more, Palm needs LCD Screens (Panasonic, Sharp, Sony are the main makers). Sony needs the Palm OS (Palm is the only maker) Palm isn't the one in trouble if they break off their agreement, you are. Palm doesn't have to give Sony an O.S. release, and then it won't really matter if your Clie is 16-bit, because it won't have an O.S. to run on anymore. Unless you want to be more radical and have somebody create a new O.S. (Something Sony has never done, for more than a few reasons)

m505 return rate
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 7:53:56 PM #
I think you mean "the reason there aren't so many m505 supporter posts arguing with Clie posts anymore is because everyone is returning their m505s".

If you know your local Staples or other office supply/electronics store manager, ask them to tell you what has been going on with m505 sales. If it's anything like around here, the first two weeks were great, but only limited stock was available. The third week saw improved supply but stores began seeing the highest rate of returns they have ever had for a PDA, including the Palm IIIC. Each week after the second has shown decreased sales and increased returns.

No No. Trust me, I mean we've grown up.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 8:27:01 PM #
One, Comments like yours just help to prove my point.

Two, Walk into a Staples or Best Buy, Or Office Depot in the Bay area and ask for a Clie, and they'll say "What?"

Three, Where exactly did you get the idea you have? Did you personally call the managers and ask about sales? Did you do this out of your town?

Four, Need I say more?

Yeah right!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 2:30:16 AM #
Palm m505 owners, don't give us that "We have taken the higher road...we have grown-up" horse-crap!!!

Face it, if the tables were turned, you guys will be all over the boards exulting the superiority of you m505. You KNOW you would!!! The only reason that you are taking this "high road" approach is that's the ONLY remaining argument that you have.

Don't pull us to your level
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 11:35:08 AM #
You're just trying to get us to sink to your level. How do you know how we'd react if the tables were turned! There is no proof you're at the higher end of the table anyway! Show me any figure other than what you think, comparing Clie and m505 sales, and then tell me why your handheld is great.

The m505 is a piece of crap. This is the plain truth.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 12:48:31 PM #
Furthermore, since when did higher sales = better quality?

For now the m505 has a MUCH wider distribution channel, since Palm is better known and more established than Sony. It is likely that once average customers start seeing the CLIE in use by others, sales will skyrocket. By the way, Palm is predicted to be downgrading their expected sales for the current quarter (AGAIN) later this month.

Now that Palm finally has competition, it would appear that people are no longer willing to accept poor quality or relatively primitive equipment being sold for a premium price. Don't be surprised to see Palm slashing prices in the next week or two, in an effort to kickstart sluggish sales.

You Win
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 2:19:02 PM #
Yes, you are completely correct. Your handheld is infinitely superior while mine is a total piece of camel dung. Your decision to buy the model that you did was totally justified while mine was a hideous mistake that will inevitable leave my family out on the street and subject to daily shame and humiliation. Everyone who has ever doubted your genius on any topic really is a total moron who is in the fast lane to the loony bin.

There, now that you have been declared the utter and complete winner, can you drop this argument and move on to something interesting?

RE: Awwww :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2001 12:03:49 AM #
come on guys! I've never seen anything so dumb as what I'm seeing here. I love my palm Vx. I love it because it is slimmer and makes it so I hardly notice it inside my coat breats pocket. it's comfortable to have. I used to use a palm IIIc but I couldn't read it outside in the sunlight very well so I returned it for the Vx. I'm sure that you Clie owners use your Clie because it fits your lifestyle and I'm sure there are some that use it because you have been please with past sony products. I am the same way with a lot of things like that. For example, I have always used Abit motherboards when I build my computers. I use them because I have always been please with their performance. It is the same with my Palm. I have been using Palms since the Palm Pilot Pro. I don't really need anything exravagant to make it so my appointments, my phone numbers, and my documents (and games :-) ) are better looking. I use it because it is a good platform. Granted, I would probably switch to a m505 or even a clie if I could justify spending a few hundred dollars for upgrading to features that I would use very little of.

The point that I am trying to make is this: We all use the Palm platform. We all make use of the datebook, phonebook and other essential parts of the Palm OS. Some of us just have different tastes. For example, I have a friend who loves his Visor Prism because of the color, where I don't care either way as long as I could justify paying extra for the color. I also know someone who has TONS of gizmos for his Visor but I don't like lugging stuff around with me. Some go for performance, while others go for price and just plane value.

We all have different needs and wants. So why do we need to bash each other? I think all of you guys need to grow up a little and accept the fact that we're all in this for the same cause: getting both companies to make their parts better for us both on features and on our wallets.

~Charlie

RE: Awwww :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2001 3:49:09 PM #
Why the hatred and bitterness? Shouldn't this be going on between Palm and PPC users? I like both the 500 series and the Clie (prefer the Clie). But at the end of the day it's all about the OS for me. I just switched back from an iPaq and know that I will NEVER go back to PPC. Chill

RE: Awwww :(
Smaug @ 8/20/2001 12:28:21 AM #
To the poster saying palm can take away the OS. Not likely, they are in a contract until 2005 I believe.
I personally do prefer the clie because I have my doubts about SD. Does it really matter though? The 505 does have some benefits and so does the clie.

RE: Awwww :(
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/18/2001 5:38:43 PM #
All you people are so wound up that the 710c has 16bit color AND A high resolution screen. I dont no if any of you have been to best buy, but in the pda department it says something like Pocket PC. The superior choice. It is twice as good. 16 bit color, superior OS(the new PPC2002 at least), the high resolution. What are all you people so amazed about? Are you stupid?


POCKETPC'S RULE AND ARE MUCH BETTER THAN STUPID PALMS.

Wow!!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 5:23:05 PM #
I just loaded this on my N710C and it's VERY NICE. It looks like there is going to be a significant hit on speed as the images loads rather slowly. But I can't say for certain if this is due to the additional colors (likely) or due to the display application.

...Sony, hello, anyone listening? You boys are sitting on a potential homerun here!

RE: Wow!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 6:20:26 PM #
I'm sure they are listening. They probably have people reading these Forums everyday.

//Panda Fan

RE: Wow!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:09:03 PM #
After the initial shock wore off, I ran the application again with Afterburner on. Much smoother transition then before.

Hoping to see that OS 4 upgrade soon!


RE: Wow!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/26/2001 10:14:25 AM #
The speed problem with sixteen from RedMercury is most likely due to having to run the 16bit driver, a slideshow app and the graphics from one app. I think native OS support for 16bit colour will be faster than RedMercury's Demo.

It is gratifying to see that the N710 can do it when Sony gets around to offering an OS4 upgrade.

It matters not.

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 5:31:29 PM #
If this is true and it doesn't slow down the Clie to a crawl, then I'm happy for you Clie owners out there. However, my decision to keep my m505 was based mainly on the 505's superior form factor, SD slot, and dislike for the cheap, gaudy look of the Clie.

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 6:29:25 PM #
Yet another premature m505 buyer justifying his purchase. Hey, you can always sell it on eBay! You don't HAVE to keep the thing, ya know.

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:18:11 PM #
** Before Clie came out

m505 owners : Hey I am holding m505, where is the Clie?

** After Clie came out

m505 owners : Well m505 has nice form factor and it has 16bit color while Clie has only 256 colors

** After the news that Clie can support 16bit came out

m505 owners: Well m505 has nice form factor!!


What is going on?

RE: Why???
skytraveler @ 6/7/2001 7:32:30 PM #
Again the Clie and M50x camps duel it out. Why? Who cares which handheld is better. I'm sure everyone is going to pick the handheld that suits them the best. If the M50x owner didn't like the M50x, they wouldn't buy it! If the Clie owner didn't like the Clie, they wouldn't buy it. So put the verbal swords down and start enjoying your handheld. There is plenty of room in the world for many, many handheld models.

The SkyTraveler
RE: Why?
skytraveler @ 6/7/2001 7:37:56 PM #
And as a second note: Anyone that thinks they can do better than Palm, Sony, Handera, etc. in marketing, manufaturing, or developing, etc., you are welcome to start your own company and do it the "right" way. I'm tired of getting on this board to "learn" more about the handheld market, and hearing all the gripes and moans. Put your money and time where your mouth is. If you can do better, than do it, otherwise, shut up!

The SkyTraveler
RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:39:11 PM #
Invalid!!! Assume you don't have any idea about which one is better, so you buy everything to try them all?

RE: It matters not.
skytraveler @ 6/7/2001 7:43:08 PM #
This is a reply for the person that posted "Posted by: I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:39:11 PM" I would use your name, but you didn't login. I'm not saying a person shouldn't find out all they can about each handheld. I'm just saying that you shouldn't put down the other person's handheld just because you don't own it. If people want to report what a handheld can do, that's great. That's what this site is for. But this "mine's better than your's" crap doesn't belong here. That's all I'm trying to say.



The SkyTraveler

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:50:20 PM #
SkyTraveller,

I think that is not the point, the point is that many newcomers also come to the discussion forum and see which one is better (or better suit) for their needs. When people say:

"m505 screen is dark, the color is washed out"

I think this is fine.

however when people say

"Clie is WAY too thick, it is MONSTER"

this is definitely false and could mislead the newbies.

I think many people do "comparisons", even though some do "bashing"!

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:53:40 PM #
>If this is true and it doesn't slow down the Clie to a crawl

It's possible that the processor (and graphics controller) will not be able to handle both 320x320
resolution AND 16-bit color for fast-paced, graphics-intensive games. However, I'm sure that
SplashPhoto, AlbumToGo, MGI, etc. could make use of this to make a kick-ass photo viewer. In
fact, Sony should just go ahead and update the included PictureGear Pocket to support 16-bit
color. It already supports high-res and reading directly from the memory stick, so this would
nicely round-out the application!

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:34:06 PM #
Uhhh... to whomever is hiding behind the I.M. Anynomous nickname, you said that you would be fine if somebody said the m505 screen was dark, but you wouldn't be if somebody said the Clie was thick. You said this could distract newbies. Let me set the record straight. You.....are.......an........idiot. Both of the things you stated are opinions, and in your stupid post, you claimed we would mislead newbies. Maybe people seeking to buy a Palm want to buy a slim Palm, and that one is the m505, maybe some want to buy a Clie, for the brighter screen (which hardly makes the m505 dim). It's an opinion, everybody's entitled to have them, and until you become the ed. of your own Palm news site, you can't do a single thing about what others say. Get used to it.

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 10:28:43 PM #
Quite nicely put. I started visiting PalmInfoCenter before the m500's came out just to get more *Info* about Palm platform devices. However, after the m500 series was announced, bickering has been on the increase between Palm and Sony users. I would certainly appreciate the chance to read about the differences and product availability without having to wade through posts -- as put by the previous message -- by idiots. Informative and factual posts which can alert people to various issues about these devices are appreciated; but adolescent exchanges akin to "mine's bigger than yours" are getting pretty darn tiring. For those of you who feel the need to rage about my opinion and want to fire back with ammunition, please go pull out your colors and start doing something more commensurate with your IQ. You know it's happening, so please chill out and let's try to be useful with our posts, please.

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 10:45:44 PM #
To the person that wrote:
>Uhhh... to whomever is hiding behind the I.M. >Anynomous nickname, you said that you would be fine >if somebody said the m505 screen was dark, but you >wouldn't be if somebody said the Clie was thick. You >said this could distract newbies. Let me set the >record straight.

I'm not the person that wrote the quotation that you have referenced, but I think:

YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO READ BEFORE CALLING ANYONE AN IDIOT!!!!

The poster said,

>"m505 screen is dark, the color is washed out"

>I think this is fine.

>however when people say

>"Clie is WAY too thick, it is MONSTER"

>this is definitely false and could mislead the newbies.

The claim was not just "The Clie was thick", it was "Clie is WAY too thick, it is MONSTER".

Anyone would agree if the poster said the first statement, it would be misleading the newbies.

BUT the second statement is CLEARLY over-exaggerated and a valid claim to misleading the viewer. The clie is only 0.16 inches thicker than the m505, this certainly does NOT come anywhere near the "Clie is a MONSTER" statement.

Gosh...learn to read before calling others idiots and stupid. To make others point out your stupid mistakes makes you look like a retard.


RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 11:17:17 PM #
To the one who called me an "idiot":

If I say m505 screen is WAY too dark, ther is no way to see. This is defintely an exaggeration.

But when people say, the m505 screen is dark while Clie is brighter....

That is called 'comparison'.

What if I, a Vx user, state that m505 is WAY too heavy, m505 is a MONSTER, there is no way that you can put m505 on your shirt pocket, do you think that is OK to you?

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 9:28:53 AM #
To the name-callers:

I am at a loss to understand how you can be so upset with so-called "palm-bashing", but you apparently have no problem engaging in "people-bashing."

The Palm is only a machine. If I say it sucks, it will get over it. But to call a person an idiot is just offensive, and I think it does a lot more damage to the reputation of this site than the palm-bashing problem you're upset about.

--Charlie

RE: It matters not.
Ed @ 6/8/2001 10:45:43 AM #
Charlie said:
> But to call a person an idiot is just offensive, and I think it does a lot
> more damage to the reputation of this site than the palm-bashing
> problem you're upset about.

I completely agree. Frankly, I'm tired of reading posts from people who can't carry out a discussion without insulting everyone they reply to. I'm really concerned that the ugly tone these discussion groups have taken on lately is driving away people who want to have serious conversations to be replaced by nothing but trolls. I'm certain people are afraid to ask questions because they know some 14-year-old, in physical or mental years, is going to rip them up and down for not being as all knowing as they are. The fact that the "all-knowing" answer is frequently wrong only makes it worse.

It is possible for someone to have a different opinion than you and still be sane and mentally competent. Everyone values different things. There is no one handheld that is right for everyone. Try to see things from the other person's perspective.

If someone writes something expressing an opinion that you totally disagree with, don't immediately fire off a response full of insults and condescension. That is NOT to way to change their mind. Quite the opposite. Does being insulted ever change your mind?

When responding to something you disagree with, ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with your comment. Are you really trying to change the other person's mind? If you are, you need to be persuasive. List all the facts you have on your side. Tell them why you feel like you do, not just how you feel.

On the other hand, if you are so filled with anger and condescension that you have no hope of being logical and you can only express yourself through insults and profanity, you need to shut down your computer and get some anger management counseling. Being so wrapped up in whether the N710C is better than the m505 that you can't carry out a coherent conversation is a sign that you might have a problem.

There is a rule that I would like everyone to follow: If your comment isn't something you would say to someone face-to-face, don't post it. What is too rude to say in real life is still too rude to say here. If you can't follow this rule, frankly, I don't want you here. I'd rather have this site used by 10 people who can carry out a reasonable conversations that 10 thousand trolls.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter

RE: It matters not.
skytraveler @ 6/8/2001 10:49:43 AM #
I agree with Charlie. Let's get the information out there and leave the bickering to the backyard barbeques. : )

The SkyTraveler
Is the Ed upset that people don't follow his rules?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 2:50:55 PM #
Poor baby.

"Poor Baby"?? Oh please...
bradleyboy @ 6/8/2001 2:58:17 PM #
Well, as I see it, Mr. Anonymous, Ed is right to say that this sort of bickering and trash talking is useless. But even if you disagree, which you are certainly entitled to do, the fact of the matter is that you are a guest in Palminfocenter's house, and yes, Ed and the rest have the right to set the house rules, just as would be the case if I was playing poker at your house. If you can't play nice, then you should take your pda and go home and play with yourself, and stop bothering the mature pda enthusiasts who want more than flame wars, trolling, and "my-pda-can-beat-up-your-pda" sillyness.

Yours truly,

bradleyboy

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 1:29:04 AM #
CLIE:
+Hi Res
+Jog Wheel
+Excellent front light for reflectve's
+Adjustable Light
+Pretty, Elegent looking
+Movies
+MP3's (cant rewind/FF)
+Clever Plug charges in crade or not
-Cheesy Buttons, too small and wiggly
-Hi Res tease: only works when Apps are written for it (re. None except stock apps)<- The biggest drawback IMO
-Inconsistent HiRes Fonts, Lo Res icons make things odd/unfinished feeling
-Jog Wheel only works when Apps are wirtten for it (re. None except stock apps)
-Movies Play @ 10fps. unusable
-Screen requires more "press" to use
-Slow for a Palm OS device

505:
+Buttons work well, can be pressed with stylus (for typical V users)
+Smaller form factor (not by much)
+Lo Res make things look the same no matter what app
+Faster than my old Prism despite same processor in the real world (Benchmark is discounted, not OS4 optimized)
+Already more accessories
-Not much change fom Vx, just useable in more conditions
-Screen equivelent to mono devices (backlight is actually useful compared to "reverse backilight" though)
-Crappy backlight, not adjustable
-No Multimedia
-Odd cradle attachment

Overall:

505-Evolution of the species
Clie-New Species, but a bit bloated

Just trying to be subjective. I have no prefrence, just experience.

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 4:19:01 AM #
> -Hi Res tease: only works when Apps are written
> for it (re. None except stock apps)<- The biggest
> drawback IMO
> -Jog Wheel only works when Apps are wirtten for
> it(re. None except stock apps)
> -Movies Play @ 10fps. unusable

The first two items aren't quite true.

After installing the system update for the N710C, you can enable "HiRes Assist" and "JogAssist". They will add hi-res and jog dial support in non-native applications, respectively.

Also, as far as movie playback goes, it may be just a deficiency with gMovie. Other software could probably do a better job.

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 6:19:23 AM #
n710c
+MP3's (cant rewind/FF)

Yes it can, press and hold the next/previous track button, or configure the jog dial to ff/rewind.

-Hi Res tease

HiRes Panel with the system patch that comes on the cdrom lets you force hi res mode with programs not designed for hi res. text looks a lot more beautiful, AvantGo is great.

-Inconsistent HiRes Fonts, Lo Res icons make things odd/unfinished feeling

Looks fine to me. Or download CRS-Launcher then you get both.

-Jog Wheel only works when Apps are wirtten for it (re. None except stock apps)

Uhh there are tons of programs i know that support jog dial, and, with the system patch included on cdrom, there's Jog Dial Assist, lets you use jogdial for programs not designed to.

-Movies Play @ 10fps. unusable

that's because it's gmovie/gmedia. it sucks, tealmovie works great, fast as hell.

-Slow for a Palm OS device

It's not slow, it's fast. only some programs mess up and is a bit slower.

m505
+Lo Res make things look the same no matter what app

So you're telling me LoRes is better? HAHA. btw, Lores normal programs on n710c looks the same too, if not better!

"505-Evolution of the species
Clie-New Species, but a bit bloated"
Clie n710c is an evolution of the s300/s500. why is it bloated? because it has nice features? hey, you can say the 505 is bloated compared to the vx then.

"Just trying to be subjective. I have no prefrence, just experience."

Get more experience then.

-nXt

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 1:32:16 PM #
Thanks, nXt. My Clie experience totally changed. I didnt know about the high res assist. Action Names never looked better. The MP3 player is actually useful (I record Stern shows to MP3 for radio on the go). No one has said anything about these apps before (I know, RTFM). The 505 is a bit faster, but not worth what the Clie offers. And I can live with the buttons. I cant find CRS Luancher at Handango, etc.
The bloat thing: like PPC (which is mostly bloat), if there are features that arent useable or just dont work well, then its bloat. This applies to the movie player. Everything else in the Clie works as advertised.

Where to get CLIE files
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 2:26:39 PM #
The best place I've seen for CLIE programs is the files section of the CLIE Users Group at Yahoo Groups. Every CLIE owner shoud join this group - it's awesome!


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CLIE_Users_Group

RE: It matters not.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/28/2001 3:58:32 PM #
wait, speciality clie programs.... i thought it ran palmos?

65,000 colors here it comes...

dteky @ 6/7/2001 7:03:08 PM #
ONE work...KICK@ASS.

I wonder under the licensing agreement with Palm, how long before 3rd party is allowed to release the latest version of Palm OS?
Currently, IBM, Handspring, and Sony are all running 3.52. It's typical that Palm would do this to give them an edge on the market.
Eventually, it will catch up to them once Sony releases flashOS 4.0.

In regards to Sixteen, use Afterburner to speed it up. The color transition is much smoother.

dteky.

RE: 65,000 colors here it comes...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:51:18 PM #
sorry to spoil everyones excitement about this lie, HANDSPRINGS prism runs in 65,000 colors and it is NOT OS 4.0 so this is just another lie.

RE: 65,000 colors here it comes...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 7:54:21 PM #
Wrong,

From some sources, Prism uses the trick by driving the screen directly without OS support. I suspect Sony can use the same way (if Clie can really support 16 bit color)

RE: 65,000 colors here it comes...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 8:13:41 PM #
you guys are both wrong.

Sony wrote the code (really just design and specified the API) that implements VFS in OS4. Similarly, Handspring wrote the code (again, designed API) in OS4 that supprots 16 bit color. That is why apps that properly query the OS for 16 bit color depth capability will run with no changes on either handspring's 3.52 or palm's 4.0.

The OS code that Handspring wrote does indeed go straight to the hardware -- that's how OS's work. they do the dirty work for the applications, who merely have to call nicely defined API functions.

I think one poster is confusing the 16 greyscale (4 bit) support with 16 bit color. The OS3.1 in the visor delux does not provide 16 greyscale suppport, but some apps do in fact implement this feature by including code that hits the hardware directly. The disavantage is that if 10 apps want to do this, similar code appear ten times in memory, wasting space.


RE: 65,000 colors here it comes...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 8:45:34 PM #
Don't quite follow you. You mean Handspring wrote an API which drives the 16bit color screen? If this is correct,
it is not OS. It is more like driver and every company can have their own driver and code (16 bit color) written for
the specific machine won't be able to run on other PDAs since they don't have the same API (or driver) installed.
The driver is very hardware specific!!



RE: 65,000 colors here it comes...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:51:40 PM #
>The OS3.1 in the visor delux does not provide 16 greyscale suppport, but some apps do in fact
>implement this feature by including code that hits the hardware directly. The disavantage is that
>if 10 apps want to do this, similar code appear ten times in memory, wasting space.

Plus, these apps may not work in future models that have different hardware specs. Writing to
an OS API saves you from this problem, since the new model will have the correct HW drivers,
and (presumably) the same old OS API calls to draw to the (new) screen.

RE: 65,000 colors here it comes...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 4:34:57 AM #
Handspring probably did write some sort of driver, since they were the first with a 16bit screen.
However they also extended the api of the OS to include calls that handle 16-bit color. Most apps use the OS's api to control the hardware, instead of writing directly to it. So if the OS didn't have an API that supports 16bit, that capability is basically lost to most apps.

So yes, Handspring did modify the OS.


What a crock!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:11:07 PM #
The visor prism runs OS 3.5 and runs 16 bit color
very nicely. Why everybody is arguing about the 505
verses the clie when a good 16 bit screamer is already
available with 50 + plugin modules is beyond me.
I run databases and games at 46 mhz.

RE: What a crock!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:35:32 PM #
The reason the Prism supports 16k is because of the slightly modified to be able to display 16k colors. If you check the version info, you will see that you have Palm OS 3.5.2H. The H means Handspring Version. If you look on the new Clié, you will see that it has PalmOS version 3.5.2S, or the Sony version. I guess Sony didn't work out the 16k color part.

Palm_pilot_guy

Keyword is if....

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:12:22 PM #
The keyword here is if Sony chooses to release the upgrade. Sony has not been particularly supportive for those of us who purchased the S300. Last software update was back in December still don't support the latest version of the Palm desktop and they have been VERY slow releasing accessories.

At least to those of us in the states...

Hey, doesn't the Prism support 65K colors? Isn't it version 3.5.x? How come they could do it but Sony couldn't (or maybe wouldn't)?

RE: Keyword is if....
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 9:25:22 PM #
the 16 bit extentions are part of Handspring's 3.52. The generic 3.5 from palm can't do it. The upgrade to 4.0 brings this feature.

Palm OS5?

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 10:03:38 PM #
This answers an important question I had: can Sony upgrade to OS 5 when (IF) it becomes available?

I think the Handspring is stuck with a non-upgradeable OS, isn't it? My thoughts are that the Palm stock is so low these days, Sony should just buy them outright, upgrade to OS 4 immediately and finish OS 5. =-)

It is good to hear that the Sony is flash upgradeable. I hope the managers at Sony agree, and allow their product division to release the OS when the licensing agreement allows.

RE: Palm OS5?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 2:22:29 AM #
Not likely because OS 5 was said to be based around the new ARM processors.

RE: Palm OS5?
Lucky Dragon @ 6/8/2001 11:31:03 AM #
BAD idea. Watever happens, I sincerely hope Sony does NOT buy Palm Computing. The reason? They'd almost certainly refuse to license the OS to other manufacturers, depriving us users of choice, then they'd try to cram MemoryStick down everyone's throats. The end result for us users would probably be that two years down the road, everyone would be using (God forbid) PocketPC or something. Not a pleasant thought.

This could very easily be a hoax.

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 10:31:27 PM #
As many people have pointed out, you can make an image look 16-bit on a Clie with dithering, that does not make the device 16-bit. Look at it this way, Red Mercury: The first company to announce it will support 320x320 with it's games, Red Mercury: Oh my! In our tests the Clie is 16 bit! Why wouldn't Sony say this themselves? Because it's ridicolous. That's like shipping a car with an announced 2 valve, 50 horsepower engine, and then putting a 210, 8 valve engine. It's a hoax!


RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 11:04:53 PM #
Get a life!!

The graphics controller chip, the MediaQ (MQ1110) clearly shown that it can support both 320x320 resolution, and 16-bit color. So the hardware support is there, the only limitation is the software which is the Palm oS 3.5. Red Mercury has developed a way to access the full color capacity of the chip.

Why would they lie? Yeah, the risk of lossing their reputation is well worth the "cover-up" that the colors are actually 8-bit making it look like 16-bit.

Come-on, you must have fallen for that "brightness m505 hack" to be this distrustful.

RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 11:21:38 PM #
I'm really sick of all the m505-owning CLIE bashers!

Is it a "huge clunky brick"? No, it's smaller than a Palm III and Visor Deluxe/Prism models. It has a better screen--NO ARGUMENT, and people who point out Handspring's pre-OS4 16-bit color are simply idiots. Look m505 owners, I know you guys are trying really hard to find something wrong with the Clie, but there simply isn't! Cling on to your "superior form factor" and let us enjoy hi-res 16-bit color glory :)

Check out the clie discussion forums on brighthand.com, and you'll see how many people have switched from the m505 to the clie.

RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:25:28 AM #
Well, m505 owners bashing the Clie aside, you really can't argue these facts:

1. Form factor: Clie vs m505 it really is six of one, half dozen of another. 505 is thinner, Clie is skinnier in width. Both are close enough that I can't see calling either superior to the other.

2. Screen resolution: Clie obviously wins here, but... Until there are more applications written to take advantage of that, I can't see an advantage here. Six months from now, if all sorts of developers have "clie high-res" versions, then this will change, but for now I can't say that high res is worth the switch.

3. Screen brightness. Ok, Clie wins. Hands down.

4. Cost: $50 diff now, rumored that the 505 price might drop would increase this diff unless Sony dropped at same time.

5. USB: Both work, but I'd have liked to have seen Sony implement the latest HotSYnc manager with it's USB support.

6. Music... Sony Sony Sony.

7. Expansion. Ok, a little personal bias here, but I don't exactly have a great deal of confidence in Sony's ability to choose format "standards". Got to swing the vote to Palm on this one for going with something that at least more than one company is behind...

All of the above sure makes it sound like the Sony is worth the extra $50, right? Well, actually I think it's a pretty tight "race". If the Sony had an SD/MMC slot in it, at least for me, the decision would have been a no brainer. But as is, I really had to flip a mental coin on which to go with... and as the Palm's screen was acceptable to *ME*, I went with the m505. Now... Six months from now, if there are all sorts of apps available that take advantage of the higher res... well, might be time to toss my m505 on eBay. But for me the advantages RIGHT NOW don't outweigh the "disadvantages" and differences for ME.

Which makes a really good point, actually... and this has been said over and over. (and over, and over... you get the idea): PDA = Personal Digital Assistant. Emphasis on the Personal. Just like purses, wallets, cars, computers, Operating Systems, etc, etc, etc... each person will have their own personal preferences. The important thing to emphasize here, on this Palm Info site, is that both the machines in question are running Palm OS, hopefully *everyone on this site's* choice for a handheld OS....

My 2 cents. YMMV. Check your ego at the door, thanks.

RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 1:14:58 AM #
Give me a break.

This actually makes me more impressed with Sony...instead of pulling a classic HP move of "uhh, err, I think our PDA is 16-bit color??? oh wait its not, oh crap!" they said what their software shipped with out of the box: 8-bit color.

All this talk about people having to wait for OS4 is also crazy. Don't you remember how many people were using grayscale before PalmOS supported it? This is the same ballgame. Nothing is stopping developers like Red Mercury from going for it right away...

RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 1:43:35 AM #
I don't get it? Why are people so negative on memory stick?

Are memory sticks more expensive than SD card?
NO, actually SD cards are more expensive base on price searches.

Are memory sticks less supported than SD cards?
Well, it would appear that Sony is the only company that uses them, but in actuality there's 157 companies that supports the memory sticks.

http://www.memorystick.org/msinfo/eng/memberlist/index.html

Are memory stick bigger than SD cards?
The regular memory are bigger, but the new Memory Stick Duo are actually smaller than SD cards.

http://www.memorystick.org/msinfo/eng/ms/duo.html

Are memory stick less verstile than SD cards?
No, since the I/O specifications for the SD modules has not even being finalized yet. And especially after Motorola announced that their ARM chips will have built-in memory stick support.

Are memory stick more advance than SD cards?
Yes, check out: http://www.memorystick.org/msinfo/eng/ms/ms.html



RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 3:05:25 AM #
Ummm.

Do you by any chance work for Sony?

Memory Stick support... Other companies? LOl
Autometic @ 6/8/2001 4:00:06 AM #
Yes

Audi,
Buick,
Brother (the typewriter company),
Circuit City Stores (hmm, lots of own-made devices!)
Casio Computer (hm, lots of devices using memory sticks)
Clarion (Car radio company?)
Compaq (iPaq uses CF, PC's use Memory stick...?)
etc, etc.

Oh yes, Palm , LOL

I don't know, but whatever this list is supposed to represent, it does NOT mean that all these companies issue devices/lamps/cars/planes using memory sticks!

Quite an impressive list, but if you get down to it, there is only SONY, Lexar, Microtech and maybe Motorola and maybe ACER. Who else ? I haven't seen an Audi that runs on memory stick... Nor a Palm for that matter, Nor a Circuit City Astronomical Imperialistic Zooming Device (or whatever).

All big companies sign up because it MAYBE, ONE DAY could become a standard, in which case they don't want to be left hanging out there.

Check out the SD/MMC/CF member list. Much more impressive AND it is actually being used by more companies already.

pfft



RE: This could very easily be a hoax.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 10:09:49 PM #
About the hi-res features of the Clie, do your homework first. The Clie comes with an option to force all apps into hi-res. granted, SOME apps don't work well with it but MOST do. And they look fine.

As for Memory Sticks, they are seen as a legitimate contender to SD cards. I also have no problem buying all Sony products as they make good, quality stuff. Oh yeah, almost 10,000,000 mem sticks have been sold. how many SD cards? Oh yeah, a few hundred thousand.

Bottom line, Sony's a big company with a good memory (NPI). They're not going to repeat the mistakes of the past. The memory stick will not go the same way of Betamax.

710 vs 700

Alexis Roettinger @ 6/7/2001 11:23:50 PM #
What is the clie 700? At first I thought it was a typo, but then I saw that ababall works on the 700 and the 710. I couldn't find anything on Sony's web page.
RE: 710 vs 700
rspitz @ 6/7/2001 11:53:27 PM #
The N700 was the original Japanese OS version which came out back (around) last April. There are minor differences between the two units beside the obvious English / Japanese thing:

1) The N700 has a magnet inside at the bottom corner to hold the cover down. The U.s. Units (N710) came out without the magnet. It is rumored that Sony didn't include it for fear of the U.S.'s higher dependence on magnetic cards, and erasing them if they were near the pda. Some really want the magnet and there have been a couple posts on palmblvd how to get a magnet at Radio Shack that fits well.

2) Japanese unit initially did not support MP3 and only Sony's proprietary ATRAC. Sony knew this would never fly in the U.S. Latest reports are that they are releasing a patch to give the N700 MP3 ability in June.

3) Lastly, both units are flashable but the N700 has 4 more MB onboard (?ROM) onboard for the higher requirments of the Japanese characters compared to English.

Hope that helps :-)

RE: 710 vs 700
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2001 11:54:00 PM #
The 700 is the Japanese model.

Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:19:12 PM #
If you like the Vx for factor but want the screen and brightness of Sony Clie, then it's better to wait a few more weeks for the Palm m505x!!!

It has 320*320 resolution at 65,000 colors. 2 expansion slots. And a brighter screen.

Pics here:
http://www.brando.com.hk/image_news/2001-06-08_m505x.jpg

Bullshit: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:36:00 PM #
Judging from the number of spelling mistakes in this diagram, it appears to be just a lame-ass joke by an Asian prankster. Palm won't be releasing an m505 update for at least six months - by which time they may be a division of Sony.

Since Palm depends on Sony as a source of color screens (ironic, isn't it?) eventually, Sony may licence the N710C's screen to Palm, but this would require a total redesign and result in a larger sized Palm

RE: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:36:31 PM #

LOL, thanks for the laugh.

Palm must have hired a 7 yr old to write their ads huh?:

Double Expasions <-- Double "Expansions" maybe?

Build-in Bluetooth <-- Try "Built-in" sparky.

You broke the first rule of trying to pull a hoax:

1. Don't mis-spell everything.

RE: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:37:53 PM #
If you can read Chinese, on the main page http://www.brando.com.hk it says is this a upcoming model
or a hoax?

RE: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:42:18 PM #
Looks like not only a hoax, but a pretty poor one. I can't read Chinese, but I can read English, and that's some pretty crappy English on the supposed "ad".

(Also, based on the identical-but-flipped light reflections on the SD slots, it looks to me like the second one is a cut-and-paste job.)



RE: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 12:49:57 PM #
I believe it is a hoax for a couple of reasons. The next entry in the m500 series will be called the m515 or something like that, not the m505x. That's the old way of naming things that Palm doesn't use anymore.

When I looked at the interior of the m500 that Dave Design posted, there just wasn't room for another SD slot. I doubt there has been a major breakthrough in electronic design or battery technology that will allow Palm to put in another slot this soon. Maybe by Fall.

Though not a deal-killer, the fact that this is an easy photo to fake with PhotoShop by editing a known m505 pic makes me suspicious.

It is too soon for Palm to come out with this. They would have another m505 fiasco. Sales of the m505 would dry up and the company would probably tank.
-RobZombie

RE: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 1:22:44 PM #
Relax, people! It's just a (poorly executed) joke!

RE: Palm m505x at 320*320 true color coming soon
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 3:53:23 PM #
Haha.. I'm a Palm lover (or maybe not after a few weeks because I'm looking into the Clie), but this is just a ridiculus picture!

ROFLMAO...not really...just laughing
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 6:03:01 AM #
Bah! Either you are really stupid and are the sucker of practical jokes or you just know how to use Photoshop.

If this is not a hoax, answer me this, masked stranger.

1. Why would you need more than one expansion slot?

2. Why didn't we hear about this before?

3. Why wasn't there a top view?

Thank you, the plaintiff has spoken.

m505x

altema @ 6/8/2001 1:49:38 PM #
I agree, the ad was not well done. Why would anyone have an ad about a new screen, and not even show the screen unless it was a teaser? The "Engleese" was cute though. Back to the topic of the Sony, do you know what this does for us, even if we don't have a Sony? It gives us bragging rights.

The guy with the snide remarks and the Pocket PC at work, will now have nothing to claim as an advantage, not even hardware. Now, in addition to having better apps and a more stable OS, we can point out that a Palm device can be had with better resolution screens, or more expansion slots, or smaller form factor, or more actual colors, etc, etc... And we can quote the numbers regardless of which Palm we own, because it's all in the family. We can pick what we want, or what fits our needs, and still be comfortable knowing that we can change our device if the need arises. My wife has my original IIIe. If it wasn't for the games the kids play, it would only get used about 15 minutes a month. The ONLY thing she needs is more memory. I, on the other hand, use my Palm for 4 to 6 hours of runtime per day, and I am waiting for a transparent titanium screen that will let you use the corner of a brick as a stylus without wearing out your screen!

RE: m505x
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 3:28:38 AM #
"The guy with the snide remarks and the Pocket PC at work, will now have nothing to claim as an advantage, not even hardware. "

Thats not true and you know it. PocketPC's have ALWAYS had a hardware advantage, and still do. Processor speeds (don't give me this crap about bloated software...) Memory, and display tech have ALWAYS come to pocketPC first. Comparing PocketPC to PalmOS is a wasted effort. A year ago when the ipaq arrived, you palm zealots said nobody needed color, nobody needed sound... Where are we today??!?! Now, with your sony clie, you're praising the "advances"... ITS PATHETIC.

"Now, in addition to having better apps and a more stable OS, we can point out that a Palm device can be had with better resolution screens, or more expansion slots, or smaller form factor, or more actual colors, etc, etc... "

Better resolution? at the expense of color depth... better color depth at the expense of resolution... The palm platform is full of compromises, there is not ONE single PalmOS device that has the optimum of form factor, power and price. More expansion slots? sorry, there's not one palm I know of that can use INDUSTRY STANDARD PCMCIA cards.


"And we can quote the numbers regardless of which Palm we own, because it's all in the family. We can pick what we want, or what fits our needs, and still be comfortable knowing that we can change our device if the need arises. "

So what your saying that there exists a device that is <5oz, has 320x320 res, 16bit color, multimedia, expansion??


Before all of you jump on me, I have an m505, a visor deluxe, an ipaq, an em500, a newton mp2000. The best pda on the market today that combines form factor, screen resolution, flawless integration of multimedia and ease of application development is a pocketPC.

Palm's "integration" of multimedia is a patchwork at best... To quote a story I read about the new clie... "its like they took an excellent PDA and grafted on a walkman". PocketPC's have a true digital audio subsystem, accessible from EVERY application, on EVERY PPC device. So applications need only be recompiled for different processors... whereas a clie specific atrac player would have NO hope of working on my m505. Finally, don't even try to joke about video on a palm. 33mhz on a handheld is NOT enough to do serious computing. Try decoding wma files on that dragonball processor. Mp3's?? thats old news, a compression format that takes double the space than wma.

Throwing dsp's, special screens etc.. onto a SINGLE palm device is a bad idea... it fragments the market. A year ago, palm zealots were complaining about different processors. Well what happens when you get completely DIFFERENT devices?!?!?

Before I get shot down here... I'm not a palm basher. I have simply come to the conclusion that this platform is reached its limit in its current state and no amount of patching, adding to it will fix its problems. When the new ARM palms come out next year then we can talk... But then again... what will pocketPC's be like then. A STEP AHEAD!


RE: m505x
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/18/2001 6:28:50 AM #
Mp3's?? thats old news, a compression format that takes double the space than wma.

hey, it just takes half the time to compress wma, but it's the same size as mp3 and worse quality.

LIARS

Rob Zimmerman @ 6/8/2001 3:54:45 PM #
Isnt the Prism 16 bit color?? Does it run OS4 ? My point. Sony runs a very simmilar os to Handspring. If the Sony did 16 bit it would do it now.....sorry but who ever wrote this story is wrong.
RE: LIARS
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 6:17:19 PM #
Imbecile
Do you have a Clie? Did you run the program? It is clearly 16 bit color
It's been pointed out before that both the Prism and the Clie are running modified versions of OS 3.5.2, but not identical versions. The hardware of the Clie obviously supports 16 bit color, so go back to making out with your PPC in the corner over there and shut up you lousy troll

RE: LIARS
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2001 7:32:18 PM #
Rob,

Prism use its own way to drive the 16-bit color (somebody call it
an extension to Palm OS 3.5), so it is more like a specific software
without needing the OS support.

Sony could do the same thing, and what red-mercury has done might be the
indication of that.

You might ask, then why not every company come up with their
own way? The answer is they could, but just plenty dirty job and
the software won't be able to run on other machine. If the OS
support it, the same software can be run on every machine which run
the same OS.

RE: LIARS
stormrider @ 6/8/2001 7:35:37 PM #
Why must there always be so much bickering between PPC and Palm users, and m505 and Clie user???? Can't you guys just have some self-control and post more helpful discussions?

RE: LIARS
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 12:31:12 AM #
> Isnt the Prism 16 bit color?? Does it run OS4 ? My
> point. Sony runs a very simmilar os to Handspring. If
> the Sony did 16 bit it would do it now.....sorry but
> who ever wrote this story is wrong.

Hey dude, you got to know what's happening in the development scene before you post that one. Palm rolled back changed from Sony with their VFS manager and Handspring with their 16-bit APIs and created the OS4.0. Basically, the 16-bit API routines used in OS3.5 in the Prism is essentially THE SAME THING used in OS4. Ditto for the VFS manager in the Clie 300 with OS3.5. And that's the reason why MSMount works on the m505 in first place. It just so happened that the OS3.5 that Sony was using obviously does not have the 16-bit APIs.

Prism & 3.5h

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 4:47:22 AM #
I think Handspring tweaked the OS for 16 bit color. But my Prism would get traded with all my springboards for the highres clie if the clie did 16 bit color.

Clie Sales

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 8:25:16 PM #


Sony Corporation (SNE)
price change
$79.89 -2.490
Add this stock to your MSNBC homepageData: MSN MoneyCentral Investor and S&P Comstock 20 min.delay.

       AS PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, details and photographs of the new model were inadvertently posted on Sony’s Web site before the official launch.
       The first version of the Clie disappointed many analysts and followers of the PDA (personal digital assistant) market who expected more features from a Sony device. However, many of the capabilities expected in the first-generation device are included in the new Clie, which should help Sony’s efforts in the handheld market.
       Earlier this month, Fujio Nishida, president of Sony Electronics, acknowledged the shortcomings of the first Clie device. “It didn’t have color and was a little pricey. We are bringing out a better product,” he said.
       The lack of enthusiasm in the market for the Clie was evident by the device’s poor sales. Recent figures from research firm NPD Intelect estimated that the Clie’s market share was in the low single-digit range, placing it far behind other PDAs based on the Palm OS, such as Handspring’s Visor and Palm’s own devices.

-MSNBC May 1st

RE: Palm Sales
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2001 9:23:31 PM #
Palm, Inc.(PALM)
price change
$5.87-100.490 (over 12 months)
Add this stock to your MSNBC homepageData: MSN MoneyCentral Investor and S&P Comstock 20 min.delay.

AS PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, details and photographs of the new model were inadvertently posted on PalmStation's web site before the official launch. The first versions of the Palm disappointed many analysts and followers of the PDA (personal digital assistant) market who expected more features from a Palm device. Unfortunately, many of the capabilities expected in the first, second and third-generation devices aren't included in the new Palm m505, which won't help Palm’s efforts in the handheld market.

Earlier this month, Scooby Doo, CEO of Palm, Inc., acknowledged the shortcomings of the first Palm devices. “They didn’t have color and most were ridiculously pricey. We are bringing out a better product in 2002 if we're still around,” he said.

The lack of enthusiasm in the market for the m505 was evident by the device’s poor sales. Recent figures from research firm NPD Intelect estimated that the m505’s market share was in the low single-digit range, placing it far behind other PDAs based on the Palm OS, such as Handspring’s Visor and Sony's new device.

-MSNBC June 8th



Yawn...

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 12:12:01 AM #
So what, big deal? The Pocket PCs already haue 16-bit color displays. So, it's big news when a Palm device finally catches up? Geez!

Buy what YOU Like

vt @ 6/10/2001 8:03:34 AM #
Buy what you like and use it. Leav the negative accusatons for some one else. Use what U like and peace be with any one who uses a hand -held PDA Palm or other

mac support ?

yunn @ 6/10/2001 3:04:21 PM #
i heard that there's a third party software that provides support for the clie' 710c to mac OS. can anybody confirm this and does it support the music player too? where to get it?
RE: mac support ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2001 11:19:55 PM #
Story from http://www.macosplanet.com

Sony Clie PDA Now Compatible With USB Mac's

If you’re one of the many Mac users who would like to adopt Sony’s Clie PDA as your new portable computing assistant you’re in luck. While Sony’s computer PDA division did not add internal support for the Clie handheld on the Macintosh a third party developer by the name of Mark/Space Software did.

The Space Software Company which is located at http://www.markspace.com/ is now offering a kit that adds Clie support to your Macintosh. According to the company’s web site the Clie Macintosh kit consists of a USB based driver for the Clie and the Aladdin Systems Hot Time conduit. When using the kit in conjunction with the USB cable that is included with the Clie and the Mac Palm Mac Desktop software users can use the Sony Clie handheld and its advanced memory stick feature in the same way that you would use your Palm Pilot or Handspring Visor.

The Clie Mac Pack currently retails for $40 and can be purchased directly from the Marc/Space Software company web site at http://www.markspace.com.

The M.O.S.P. Perspective:

With Sony officially adopting Go America as its wireless ISP for the Clie, and the forthcoming release of Sony's new high-resolution color high resolution (320*320) I’m glad to see that a Mac solution for using the Clie has been released. I’m sure many Mac users will find it useful; it’s just too bad that Sony couldn’t have included “built-in” Mac support from the get go.Comments?

Subscribe to Our Daily Newsletter & Win---Click here for more information

Click here to translate the above story to your native language


RE: mac support ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/27/2001 12:21:16 PM #
Much thanks for this *valuable* information. For me to be able to find this information proves once again that the net is working just fine. Sony wouldn't provide any MacOS support for their Clie, and I couldn't find another PDA worth buying. Thanks for the tip on MarkSpace.

too expensive

joshua @ 6/13/2001 6:11:55 PM #
i own a plain old sony bw clie
i will trade anyone for a m500.
yes the m505 has a sucky screen.
the problem i see with the clie 700
is that mem sticks are really expensive compared to mmc's
i'll wait till the palm has a better screen
RE: too expensive
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/20/2001 10:19:31 PM #
Sony 64MB Memory Stick - Sony - (Memory) Lowest Price: $77.88

64MB MultiMedia Card - Simple Technology - (Memory) Lowest Price: $67.60

Sony's getting the prices down, and now that third party companies are making them (namely Lexar, from what I've seen so far), hopefully the Memory Stick price will drop even further.

I'm getting mighty tempted to sell my Canon S100 and Jornada 548 and get a Clie and Sony camera...doh! :)

Evan
evancg@qwest.net

CLIE N710C or N610C/V ?

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/14/2001 1:21:43 PM #
I trying to decide whether to get the 710 now or wait for the 610. I'd be grateful if someone would provide me with some info.

From what I've read the 610 will have OS 4.0 and therefore support 16-bit color. Can I update the 710's OS to 4.0 when it is released?

Does the 610 have MP3 capability or not? I've read conflicting reports on this.

I understand the 610 will be a lot cheaper too. Are there any other differences?


RE: CLIE N710C or N610C/V ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/22/2001 10:42:56 AM #
N610C/V does NOT support MP3.

This is from SONY website:

PEG-N710C - US$499.99 - Satin Silver
MP3 player headphones Palm OS v.3.5
320X320 resolution 8 bit color

PEG-N610C/S - US$399.99 - Satin Silver
Palm OS v.4.0 320X320 resolution
16 bit color

PEG-N610C/V - US$399.99 - Metallic Purple
Palm OS v.4.0 320X320 resolution
16 bit color

Also a statement from SONY posted on this website:

OS 4.0 Upgrade Coming Soon to A Palm Near You
Posted by: Ed on Thursday, July 19, 2001 2:25:26 PM

"....David Yang, a Sony spokesperson, has confirmed that an upgrade to OS 4.0 for the PEG-N710C is being developed and this will allow the device to display 16-bit color. However, Mr. Yang isn't able to say when the upgrade will be released or whether the company will be charging for it....."

Cheers!

RH

RE: CLIE N710C or N610C/V ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/31/2001 5:10:40 PM #
From what I have been told the N610C/V will have the ability to play mp3s, but will require an aditional attachment. Therefore if, at any time, you want to play music, put out the extra 100 bucks and get the N710. It will be worth your money and you'll get a memory stick too.

Palm OS 4.0 for Sony N710C

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/30/2001 7:20:24 PM #
Yup. I talked to 2 different techs at Sony. Palm OS 4.0 will be released for the N710C. Just wait.
I went out & got one today.
I think its all in the contract between Sony & Palm & Handspring - for Palm OS licensing.
Can't release Palm OS 4.0 until Handspring...Palm release...Notice the progression of the release of new
PDAs over the last 9 months with different Palm OS.

But you are correct about the screen & res of the Sony N710C & N610C = very nice.
I read somewhere that Sony provided Palm with the screen for their 160x160 res...hummm...
so does that mean that the next Palm will be 320x320 with the faster processor++

have to wait & see...

RE: Palm OS 4.0 for Sony N710C
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/31/2001 2:12:46 AM #
Just looked at upgrading from my Palm III to the sony n710c The Japan version has something called TV Scape 1.0. This allows TV programs and other video content to be displayed on it. Anyone see this on their 710c or know anything about it?

RE: Palm OS 4.0 for Sony N710C - TV Scape 1.0
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/1/2001 5:30:29 PM #
It's all Japanese top me...even with the translator...Babel Fish...
From what I can gather..it is a very neat software...mainly for "TV guide" - TV show schedules.
may get some TV clips.... ect....

Sony's response

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2001 4:45:11 PM #
Thank you for contacting SONY.

Currently the Palm OS 4.x is not available or supported through SONY on the
PEG-S300/N710C models. Should an upgrade to Palm OS 4.x be released from
SONY for your CLIE Handheld, the upgrade will be accessed from the SONY
CLIE support website:

http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/support/clie/

1. Click the "Software Updates" link for your CLIE model.

2. Locate the update you are interested in, and click the ".exe" link.

3. Print and read the installation instructions.

Please bookmark the support site and visit it periodically for any new
releases.

IMPORTANT!: SONY does not test third-party software or updates on our
CLIE Handhelds. We also do not support, or recommend, any
software or updates from any site other than our own.
Although third-party applications may be installed, issues
with, or resulting from the use of such software will not
be supported by SONY.

Thank you for the opportunity to be of assistance.

The SONY Internet Group
Customer Information Services Center

m505 suck

I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2001 2:08:59 AM #
The only way to see why it (M505) suck is put it on the same table with Clie and compare. Because most of the people do is compare once before you buy and go with your choice from then. I don't know why people say 160x160 is the SAME as 320x320?
Most people don't care the OS on Palm (3.0 vs. 4.0). The only problem with memory stick is that it's SONY thing.

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