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Comments on: Palm Sales Had a Major Comeback in May

Finally, some good news for Palm Inc. According to NPD Intelect, sales of Palm-branded devices accounted for almost 70% of the handhelds sold in stores in May, up almost 8% from the previous month. This change was mainly brought about by strong sales of the m505. "May looked great for Palm," an NPD analyst said. "The m505 was just killer."

Palm's sales had languished during March and April after the company announced the m500 series long before it was shipping, which greatly reduced demand for their models that were available. May was the first month that the m500 series was shipping in large numbers.

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Palm Sales Had a Major Comeback in May

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 7:20:30 AM #
Of course this won't make the "Palm is Dead" crowd happy. They will be saying "Palm didn't include the amount of units returned because of how disappointing the screen is"

Good for you Palm Computing, you're back in the game.


RE: Palm Sales Had a Major Comeback in May
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 9:05:25 AM #
What they don't tell you is that Palm didn't include the amount of units returned because of how disappointing the screen is.

Palm IS dying.

RE: Palm Sales Had a Major Comeback in May
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 9:37:41 AM #
That's funny!!! 70% of the market is dying. About to overthrown with the dismal 13% PPC has!!!

Oh no! My bloved Palm is gone . . .

RE: Palm Sales Had a Major Comeback in May
frox @ 7/2/2001 12:09:45 PM #
Plam will be good and sound ! Because they have us -- The palm lover !

RE: Palm Sales Had a Major Comeback in May
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 5:14:40 PM #
I've purchased the m505 and I must say I'm very happy. After Clie came out I was jeolous and did consider exchanging with Clie. I've even considered switching to PocketPC. However, I'm glad that I didn't.
The reason is simple. That's right; simplicity is the key to palm. It is compact, well built, efficient in organizing my life, tons of medical software and other software to play with, and even though the screen could have been brighter I'm happy with the trade off for the battery life (I leave the side-lights on most of the times unless I have enough direct light).

I look forward to the next generation of Palms that will take advantage of the higher resolution screen, longer battery life even witha brighter color screen, even better portability with internet accessability, and continual growth of many applications that makes my life simple.

Sam

Sales numbers

mertanen @ 7/2/2001 7:25:53 AM #
Which sales numbers are we talking about? USA or global?

>According to NPD Intelect, sales of Palm-branded devices accounted for almost 70% of the handhelds sold in stores in May, up almost 8% from the previous month.



RE: Sales numbers
mondo @ 7/2/2001 7:38:48 AM #
I think if talking about global, it would be even higher. In Australia, tje Sony and Handera products aren't available, and the Handsprings are only relatively recent.

The PPC products are not high in popularity, especially in corporate settings.

-----
mondo
Sydney, Australia

RE: Sales numbers
Snubolis @ 7/2/2001 3:29:39 PM #
Unfortunately, with our world today, you have to assume USA unless stated otherwise... ho hum...

Good news for Palm and the community

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 7:21:00 AM #

It's nice to see a little good news coming from Palm. Although it was fairly predicatable that the M505 would kick their sales figures way up.

The interesting results will come when Sony has its models out and Handspring launches the rumoured 66 megahertz Visor Snap that was reported due out last week.

This announcement certainly puts the correct light on ill founded poorly conducted studies prepared by "experts" suggesting that WinCe (well Compaq in this instance) had outsold Palm and that the Palm platform was not adopted by enterprises. (I work for the world's largest news and information company in the world and Palm is supported here)

Anyway that's my £0.02 worth, and hey look, I think i am the first to post too..



RE: Good news for Palm and the community
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 8:42:07 AM #
I'm still wondering where the ipaq goons pulled that figure from.--actually I have a bit of an idea.

(|)

RE: Good news for Palm and the community
tychay @ 7/2/2001 4:53:04 PM #
Note that the figures quoted are for retail sales only. They do not cover direct sales or corporate accounts which explains why the iPaq has a poor showing.

I don't think taking those into account will amount to a difference of more than a few points in the totals though.

Take care,

terry

--
terry chay http://org.qixo.com/tychay/m505dis/

http://www.qixo.com- Righteous Travel Deals in Record Time

san jose, ca, usa

RE: Good news for Palm and the community
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/5/2001 6:33:39 PM #
No the totals include ALL sales including corporate. Compaq was quoting PROFIT from handhelds which was higher than Palm because they had a profit while Palm actually took a loss because of to high of stock of old units needing to be written off. The reality of AMOUNT of handhelds sold obviously continues to be staggering in the favor of Palm vs. Windows CE and people who bought into the Compaq news without reading the fine print are just looking for an exuse about how the Palm OS can fail (it can't anytime soon... although Palm making hardware could.)

[ No Subject ]

new M505 owner @ 7/2/2001 9:59:52 AM #
After reading all the latest news about Palm and how poor they were, I went out and looked at different models, compared, researched, etc. I was beginning to think I should buy something else. (I currently own a IIIxe). But after all the looking I still decided on the M505. Yes, the machine's screen isn't quite as bright as some others, but Palm made a decision (and I think a good one) to go after some decent battery life. I've got a friend with a powerful "bulky" HP Jornada who claims a "whopping" 4-5 hours of battery life. Man, I can't deal with that, I travel alot, I need days and even weeks of battery life. The Sony looks promising but I don't like their restricted memory stick, unless they freely license that thing to some other developers that thing is going to become a limitation.

Keep up the good work Palm!

m505 for size
wilco @ 7/2/2001 10:23:39 AM #
While m505 is really a nice product, it really should have been better. They should have included adjustable sidelight, for one. Still if portability is what you want then m505 is it, there's really no competition. It's nice to see Palm back but it need to be sustained by more innovations and better products down the line before you can safely say Palm is out of Intensive-Care. Good that Palm is not cutting down on R & D, but seeing so little innovation coming out of Palm, you sometimes think-where's the money went?

RE: [ No Subject ]
Trevethan @ 7/2/2001 10:38:30 AM #

Palms problem these days is that they are playing catch-up and not leading the field. Most of the innovations on the M505 for example were pioneered by others:

The 33 mhz processer was used by Handspring, as was 8 bit colour. Sony innovated the autorun of programmes stored on external memory, Sony, Handera and Handspring all examined alternative expansion media.

Unfortunately these companies have pressed further ahead with increased screen resolution, better audio, and (rumoured) introduction of a 66 mhz processor.

As previous posters have pointed out, Palm is in no position to sit on its arse and expect the new M500 series to be cash cows in the way the V series was. They need to get out and innovate and bring something new to the market or the company will fail. (and likely be snapped up by Apple IBM or Sony).

To survive, Palm will have to incorporate all the new ideas coming along and then add something. They can do wireless, and indeed a year or 2 ago or so predicted every machine they produced would be wireless by about now. (I don't class I/R as wireless!).

Regards



Nick Trevethan

Devon
UK

RE: [ No Subject ]
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 10:55:19 AM #
a: you mean 16-bit color

b: new wireless device to be out this autumn. And, as many sales people know, all future models after (and including) that one will have integrated wireless



RE: [ No Subject ]
Islander @ 7/2/2001 5:41:00 PM #
Quote:
"Palms problem these days is that they are playing catch-up and not leading the field. Most of the innovations on the M505 for example were pioneered by others:"

Oh and didnt Microsoft pioneer such techniques?
Very sucessfully I might add



RE: [ No Subject ]
GrouchoMarx @ 7/2/2001 9:13:50 PM #
No, HandEra (then TRG) was the first PalmOS manufacturer to offer direct access to external cards. The TRGpro had it from day one, and AutoCF was the first program of its kind. TRG had its own API that it used, and when the CLIE came out Sony created a completely different one. When Palm decided to include expansion in the API themselves, they picked up Sony's API, gave it a new coat of paint, and called it VFS. Personally I think it's because they have a cross-licensing agreement with Sony but not with HandEra, so they didn't have to pay to borrow Sony's extensions.

--GrouchoMarx

PALM IS DEAD!

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 11:17:26 AM #
(sorry, couldn't help poking fun at all those idiots prophesizing doom for Palm and the PalmOS)

RE: PALM IS DEAD!
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 12:21:01 PM #
There is something important that the "Palm is Dead" crowd is not considering:

1) Those saying that Palm is dying have not considered that if Palm dies so does Handspring, Hand Era, and the Clie. Palm is the one providing the OS to these companies.

2) And to those saying that Handspring and Handera are going to kill Palm. Palm is earning money from every handheld that Handspring and Handera sell (Palm is licensing the Palm OS to them). If Palm wants to kill Handspring they only have to stop licensing the OS to them.


RE: PALM IS DEAD!
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 12:34:21 PM #
they signed an agreement with handspring lasting until 2005

"So, tell me Senator....

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 1:19:25 PM #
...Do you still beat your wife?" Palm was, is and will (Baring some sort of miracle on the level of Lourdes) continue to whip the sh*t out of the WinCE platform - It's amazing how much milage Microsoft got out of that piece of propaganda that they released through Gartner. 'Had a major comeback' - Really! If this smokescreen confused YOU people, imagine how it bamboozled the popular press!

RE:
Raishe_werk @ 7/2/2001 2:09:22 PM #
the rumors of the death of microsoft FUD are greatly exagerated

-Raishe
"Monster Pig kills Jesus
More at 11"

Lets wait and see the report of the quarter

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 1:49:58 PM #
Intersting enough, May Palm start shipping M50X in volume and of course the sales will rise up, but lets wait and see how they are doing in three months especially when Sony Clie 710C released.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 2:15:36 PM #
Dont see your prediction working out. The Clie's only real appeal is to teenagers and youngsters who want a gaming gadget that plays mp3. It's not appealing to most professional business people, who incidently are the ones buying most PDA's.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 2:17:14 PM #
Who cares about how the CLIE did. It is more important that the Palm OS is the Operating System that gets distibuted and accepted by both the consumers aqnd the corporations rather than PocketPC. We all end up winners when the Palm OS kills off PocketPC, no matter who is making the devices. All of the Palm OS devices have their little niches whether it is in the living room listening to mp3's or in the corporate board room playing Bejeweled....I mean taking notes.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 2:26:04 PM #
Who would buy the m505?
Companies desiring a stable, small color, expandable, fast device.
Individuals seeking a widely-supported, solidly put together machine, that's in color and made by Palm

Who would buy that Clie?
Not Companies-No alarm function, combined with the unproffesinal mp3 player makes it a no-no, even with the res.
Individuals who want a cutting edge high-res screen, with multimedia features.

Do these target markets collide? No. Clie sales, even if they turn out to be great, are never going to blot out Palm sales. By the way, returns are tracked in the product sales, and frankly, they aren't mentioned because their not real. I'm sure the number of returned Clie's is close to the number of m505's. People aren't returning them in droves, it's just an urban legend.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 5:43:58 PM #
I just got my new Sony in today and I have to say I am unimpressed. sure it's 320x320 but none of the apps take advantage of it. at least none of the apps with any functionality, sure you can view color images at 320x320 but compared to my handera, it's nothing. all of the default apps and then a few more are taking advantage of the better resolution of the handera and the soft graffiti section while the sony apps look just like those on my IIIc. Further, you can't select how to display old apps (centered, left, adjusted) so all old apps look like shit. the MP3 is kinda cool, but barely. The Memory stick barely compares to a CF and SD. Overall, pretty boring. I recommend the handera over the sony anyday.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 6:07:18 PM #
How big is the Handera? Is it in color?

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
GrouchoMarx @ 7/2/2001 9:09:31 PM #
The HandEra 330 is physically the exact same size as the Palm III. It's a 240x320 (quarter VGA) screen, the same dimentions as PocketPC devices. It is a grayscale device.

One major difference between how Sony and HandEra handle their higher resolutions is Sony does it in hardware, HandEra does it in software. That means old apps are almost guaranteed to not break on the CLIE, even those that don't play by the rules and draw directly to hardware. The HandEra breaks on a few apps (less than 5% of the apps out there, I think, and mostly games), but gives the added resolution boost to almost all apps, because buttons are translated into their newer, high-res, crisper versions before anything is sent to the hardware. So you get more mileage out of legacy apps that use the Palm API on the 330, but more support for cutting edge direct-to-hardware stuff on the CLIE.

--GrouchoMarx

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
Roy @ 7/3/2001 8:24:15 AM #
"The Clie's real appeal is to teenagers and youngsters"????? I would have to disagree albeit the mp3 functionality implies "young", the unit is as robust as any Palm in the business world with "us" older folks. I had an m505, my 5th Palm, loved it until it decided never to synch again. After an extremely bad episode with Palm tech support, I chose to try the Clie 710c while waiting for the 505 get repaired. I use all my business apps (Doc toGo, Project@Hand, ThinkDb, Bonsai, Mail) in much the same way on the Clie than on the 505. In fact, 95% of the use I get out of the Clie 701c is business related. Works just a fine, and hey, when I'm in the mood, maybe I'll pop in the headphones and listen to some music.

The M505 was sold.

How many "youngsters or teenages" can afford to drop 600+ dollars on a Clie 710c and a 64mb stick, anyway?



RE: Business use for Sony 710c
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 9:16:21 AM #
Teenagers these days have much more spending money than we did at that age. Mom and Dad are divorced and compete for the kid's affection by buying them things. It's sad. Keep your children short on money and long on hugs and they'll grow up better people.

Off the soapbox, there is a business use for the 710C's MP3 player. Audible.com sells books and magazines in MP3 format. You can get up to an hour of audio into a 2 MB file. You can subscribe to the NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and a bunch of others, all read to you.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
Roy @ 7/3/2001 12:15:42 PM #
Thanks for the info, great idea, but unfortunately, to download a file, it has to support the device used to listen to the file. (or the device has to support it) Clie is not yet supported, so I cannot get a native mp3 file and simply transfer it to the Clie.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 12:25:25 PM #
Roy,

I agree with you. The ones who critisize Clie 710C as a "toy" are just jealous. They don't have other things to critisize Clie except for the slight thickness and MP3. The most stupid comment I heard is that
"Nobody can bring a ear phone to a meeting room", that is so stupid, you don't have to bring the ear phone to meeting room, the ear phone comes with Clie is seperated, you can just take it off and bring the
deivce itself!!


As far as I can see, Clie is much more useful than m505 as a business tool due to the brightness and
much higher resolution, these two things making the reading, writing very easy!

As for teeanage can get a toy which cost $600, that one is also nonesense. As far as I can tell, the PDA buyers are mostly adult! I haven't seen a kid playing with PDA even a cheapest one but I have seen many playing Gameboy (I live in a above average community)



RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 12:34:26 PM #
Roy, why you cannot get mp3 transferred to Clie? I have done that many times without any problem.

How does the alarm work on the Clie?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 2:53:46 PM #
There's no vibration or external speaker, so do you have to have the headphones on to hear it?

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 3:32:43 PM #
I'm 13, and on to my 5th Palm. I had a palm pro ==> IIIc ==> Vx ==> m500 ==> m505

I've also bought an average of $1000 of accesories for each. Don't tell me we don't have money.

-Pepper

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
JET8810 @ 7/3/2001 6:06:09 PM #
Wow! LOL. Im 12 and on my 2nd palm (Plam vx for a year and NOW Handera 330 for 3 weeks) The Handera 330 is my early Bar-Mitzvah present and I the Vx was half paiud and half a birthday present. I also have a lot of accessories.

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/4/2001 1:37:32 AM #
Are you trying to be funny, or just plain stupid?
So what the M505 has vibrating alarm and lights.
And what kinda moronic statement is:
""There's no vibration or external speaker, so do you have to have the headphones on to hear it?"""

If you think that's true, then tell me how the alarm works for the Palm IIIxe, IIIc, Vx, m100, m105, Visor, Visor Deluxe, Visor prism, VIIx, Visor edge? huh?

The Clie Alarm uses the normal piezo speaker like the rest of the palms. (and uh if you have headphones attached to the Clie, the alarm will sound on the headphones too)

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/4/2001 3:00:01 PM #
I'm a 4 year old toddler and I'm already on my sixth palm. I have a Prizm now. It has more colors than my crayon box. I like that. :)

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/4/2001 4:58:02 PM #
I'm serious. I'd apreciate it if you don't mock me. If you need proof of my palm history look at my comments in the forums. they're actually true

-Pepper

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/4/2001 5:59:01 PM #
That about the clié being for teenagers... nah...
not for me atleast. Why always get the new stuf for a LOT of money? why not wait until it gets cheaper and buy it then?
i still use the (exellent) IIIx. (but a thought crossed my mind... maybe i should buy a new one if they were cheaper.... hmmmm...)

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
Roy @ 7/5/2001 9:05:03 AM #
In response to the fact that I cannot get mp3 on my Clie, I can, what I meant is that there is a site someone just turned me on to called audible.com that I cannot use for the Clie. I thought it was a simple mp3 site, where you pay for audible material such as books, then you download to Clie. Not so. Audible.com uses a proprietary format and can only work on certain players such as Diamond Rio's, Casseopia, Sony IC Recorder, and just a few others, but not the Clie. Now, it seems somehow, there must be mp3 buried in there somewhere, but I cannot figure audible.com out. Weird. Anyone know something I don't, please give me a shout.

Roy

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
Roy @ 7/5/2001 9:18:01 AM #
Okay, everyone, lighten up on Pepper. When I mentioned about how many teens could actually afford a Clie w 64mb ms, that does not preclude every teen out there. There are certainly many "blessed" teens with great high end gadgets. Just meant that high end devices are not dominated by that market, obviously most teens cannot afford (or may not care to have) a Clie 710c. That's why Palm markets stuff like the m100/105, and has been so successful at it.

Roy


RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/5/2001 11:11:36 AM #
thanks roy. I get sick of people treating me like crap. I know I'm not every teen, but most of the teens I know who get a palm go all out. I do know a couple of them with m100/m105s, but we try to get the most for our money.

ex. I just convinced my parent's employee's daughter she wants a palm. and guess which one she wants? It doesn't mean her dad will buy her that one, but if she pays for 1/2 he probably will.

but I currently use 2 palms, and a s***-load of accessories. Yeah, i'm broke now, but I could still sell my stuff off and get something new.

-Pepper

RE: Lets wait and see the report of the quarter
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/5/2001 1:04:35 PM #
>> There's no vibration or external speaker, so do you have to have the headphones on to hear it?

Actually no. The Clie uses the same small speaker (or buzzer) for the Alarm. The audio is for music playback. So it is a big plus to have audio function whenever you need it, and you don't need to bring earphone with you all the time.

RE: PALM IS DEAD!

altema @ 7/2/2001 4:13:51 PM #
I know you're only joking, but you really should be nice and not kick a prophet when he's down. On second thought, they used to stone the false ones, didn't they?...
:-)
RE: RE: PALM IS DEAD!
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 6:33:55 PM #
A "prophet?" You consider yourself a "prophet?" Talk about an ego.

What's more, you so-called "prophets" (i.e., Sony-lovers) were kicking Palm when it was down. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

PLEASE let this be the end of the "My PDA is better than your PDA" bulls**t! Sony's got a nice PDA; so does Palm. And Palm, it appears, is still quite viable.

m505

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 4:25:36 PM #
I've got a 505, and I've come to the conclusion that I like it. Resolution could be noticably better, but not at the expence of battery life. The resolution is usable and I really like the back light when needed. Looking forward to Palm's os 5 model.
RE: m505
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/2/2001 4:39:15 PM #
You just gotta love it when you prove people wrong. I second alot of posts on this topic namely:
1) Coporate and powere users WILL NOT by the clie (have your earphone on in a meeting/your office, i think not)
2)no matter how much people knock palm, you just gotta love the form factor of the Vx,
3)most coporate users (like me) would rather carry a discreet Vx than an Ipaq that i have to tap 4 or more times to enter a simple appointment.
4)I don't see my company buying 500 ipaqs, palm is very good to us on volume sales (even on the M505). you'd be surprised how much cheaper it is when you buy 500 M505's compared to 500 ipaqs (i would know, we did it).
Bottom line, palm's going to be here for a while, watch out for OS 5 and screen improvements, then you'd have a killer pda in your hands!!

RE: Cost of iPaq
Cheetah @ 7/2/2001 8:17:54 PM #
Can you believe that you have to purchase a silly expansion sleeve before you can use a CompactFlash card in an iPaq.

I know that Handspring has a similiar adapter for their thin model, but I think any adapter is lousy due to extra cost but mostly convienience.

RE: m505
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 12:35:44 PM #
RE: m505
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 3:34:58 PM #
yeah, $35 too much

Palm Guy's love Palm

Palm Guy @ 7/2/2001 9:47:21 PM #
O what good news. I remember all the doom and gloom. Some of you folks need to take some anti depretssents. As for all of us who love Palm.

Were happy.

Palm Guy

Whew!

mat @ 7/3/2001 3:35:13 AM #
Thank God! I was worried that they would go under and I'd never be able to warranty my m505 if I ever wrecked it. Hopefully they come up with a "Clie response" that has a competitive screen resolution.

I'm Glad!

Tino @ 7/3/2001 9:11:01 AM #
I absolutely love my m505. Formerly a IIIc user, yes the screen was a tad strange at first but I was using my IIIc as a flashlight ! The screen is just bright enough so-as not to wake my wife at

Just some more confirmation

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 3:00:32 PM #
See the Cnet article, stating massive sales of m505. There's no mention of Clie sales, I wonder why? Don't give me that end of the month stuff, people reported getting them the 15th of May, just look at the old article.


http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-6417226.html?tag=cd_pr

Palm stock value

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/3/2001 5:14:58 PM #
Palm is a very good company, and you should expect to see Palm be profitable soon.

Palm's product tops the lines. Anyway, why would you want to spend $800 on a Pocket PC when you can get a laptop for just $200 more?

Once the economy recovers, I know Palm's situation will improve.

Palm is here to stay!

$ragon aka sinbad:]] @ 7/4/2001 9:50:54 PM #
Look,no matter what, any medium such as Palm will be around for good(ever) in one way/form/shape or anthoer! The 505 is better than the Clie, or vise versa? do we all like MC hammer? get the point? Im in the newsgroups-warez daddy! :)]

Lower price of M500

SIN114 @ 7/5/2001 10:04:34 PM #
Palm complained of bad sales of it's M505. It's price is too close to that it's big brother M505. Why should customers settle for monochrome for $100 lesser when they can have the latest greatest for only slightly more!

Palm price, and more

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/6/2001 3:01:09 PM #
(Referring to my previous post about Palm recovering)

If I were you, I would much prefer to stay away from the PC based Pocket PC, as Microsoft software seems to be more crash-prone.

Palm's going to win the handheld war, and everyone should know that.

Great Price on M Series

Gregg @ 7/11/2001 7:29:14 PM #
Found a place in Phila Pa. DCR Products ,John Rossi (215) 627-1010 Ext 1115 . The M505 @ $ 375.
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