Comments on: Sony Takes 10% of U.S. Retail Market

Palm Inc. still has the lion's share of the U.S. retail market with approximately 50%, according to NDP Intelect as quoted by Cnet. While still a dominant position, this is a lower percentage than the company has enjoyed in the past. Near the end of last year, Palm had over 70% of the market.

Palm's loss is its licensee's gain. In recent weeks, Handspring share of the retail market has been hovering 20% and 30%, which is a better showing than they have made in the past.

Sony, who in the past few months has been moving aggressively into the U.S. retail market, has seen its share rise from just 3% to approximately 10% on the strength of the three handheld models it has released in recent months.

Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (106 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Comments Closed Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.

Down

Wow, that's a significant share

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 11:37:29 AM #
considering that the new Clie's has only been out for a few months. Sony is like that second coming of Handspring.

PocketPC marketshare?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 11:48:36 AM #
PocketPC seems to gaining major ground on Palm, but how much? Why isn't Ed posting the share owned by PPC? Come on Ed, give us the info.



RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 11:56:49 AM #
Ha! Ed's afraid to post anything regarding PocketPC. He doesn't want his readers to know PocketPC is kicking the Palm platform's ass! The PalmGuru seems to know what's happening though.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:07:38 PM #
I guess all pocketpc news should be done on the pocketpcinfocenter.com or something. I'd rather not hear of pocketpc news here.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:10:17 PM #
i agree. all discussions here are really 'Palm OS' focused and that has made this site really popular. putting pocketpc stuff here will be a disaster.

thanks ed. keep it up.

Do the math
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:11:45 PM #
If Palm is holding 50%, Sony 10%, and Handspring 30%, then everyone else put together -- including all forms of PocketPC -- only have 10%. Even if you take the lowest end of Handspring numbers, the remainder is only 20%.

Hardly a swell of support for PocketPC, especially considering that the number includes a lot of non-PocketPC machines.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:15:07 PM #
No I don't mean Ed should post PocketPC news here, but he should post the market share figures for those devices just as he did for HS, Palm, and SONY. Making comments like..."The remaining market share went to PocketPC" isn't very informative. What exactly was the "remaining share". It must be considerable for Ed to gloss over the issue like he did.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:19:41 PM #
Where is Ed getting this info, and how old is it? NPD doesn't have any info on its site. Can you provide a link Ed?

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:20:32 PM #
You can read the journal. The point is that despite the journalistic hype PocketPC has not gained much share. In fact depending on the time period they have lost share. PocketPC devices are fine on the high-end but they have no chance in the middle and the low-end which will be the biggest markets as always. The journal sales estimated 16% (unit) share for PPC. If you look at IDC and Gartner, they have predicted the demise of Palm for years. They are still in different markets.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:45:32 PM #
"I guess all pocketpc news should be done on the pocketpcinfocenter.com or something. I'd rather not hear of pocketpc news here."

Translated,
"I'd rather be ignorant, and I'd rather die as the ignorant".

Open your eyes. Palm is no comparison to PocketPC. Sure if you want to spend $100 on low-end PDA, go ahead, get m100. But if you're spending $300 for any Palm PDA, your ignorance will not serve you any good.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:52:47 PM #
I think the translation would be more like "I came here to read news on palm pda's, so thats what I want to see, If I wanted news on pocket pc's, I'd go to sites that offer news on them"

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
AriB @ 9/7/2001 12:54:44 PM #
would you cut it out already? He's just telling you what the NPD link says-which has nothing on ppc

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 1:05:36 PM #
Hey, I just want the whole truth, and nothing more. I'm not interested in EDited marketshare data. :-)

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 1:49:32 PM #
People who craft such finely thought out sentences as "But if you're spending $300 for any Palm PDA, your ignorance will not serve you any good." should certainly be considered as experts -- on ignorance.


RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 2:03:20 PM #
I tend to agree that spending more than $300 on a PalmOS device is rather stupid when you consider that the more expensive models have no more features than the low-end models. Do you consider that enlightenment?

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
stonemirror @ 9/7/2001 7:16:12 PM #
Some anonymous troll writes

doesn't want his readers to know PocketPC is kicking the Palm platform's ass!

Interesting take on the situation. Let's see: All the PocketPC manufacturers on the planet, added up together, command no more than 20% of the PDA market share. Handspring, all by itself, has between 20 and 30%.

Someone's getting their collective asses kicked, but it doesn't seem to be Palm.


RE: PocketPC marketshare?
Deslock @ 9/7/2001 10:27:08 PM #
> But if you're spending $300 for any Palm PDA, your ignorance will not serve you any good.

What an ignorant thing to write... Sure, some high-end Palms are over-priced, but not all. The Clie N610C is a damn good buy. For $320 (street price), you get:

- 320x320, 16-bit screen
- bright backlighting... image is excellent under all lighting conditions
- expansion slot
- small and lightweight (5.6 oz)
- excellent battery life
- form factor that makes one-handed operation comfortable
- thoughtful details like a cradle power supply that can be used as portable charger and a well designed cover

> Ha! Ed's afraid to post anything regarding PocketPC. He doesn't want his readers to know PocketPC is kicking the Palm platform's ass!

That's FUD. PocketPC is doing well (finally), but Palm is still outselling it. It doesn't really matter... both platforms have strengths and weaknesses. Figure out your needs and choose accordingly. Immature, whiny, exaggeratory posts like yours are useless (whether they come from CE zealots or Palm fanatics).

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 10:03:10 PM #
$320 street price? Quit pulling numbers out of your ass.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
mikecane @ 9/9/2001 12:49:03 PM #
Perhaps he means Net price.

At any rate, I think this entire Palm vs PPC debate is being driven by a slice of current Palm owners who have been waiting to upgrade and are undecided about what their next step will be: Palm again or a leap (of faith?) to PPC?

My Palm is half-dead. About two weeks ago, it took a plunge out of my shirt pocket -- unlike past times, this time the screen cracked. It is now equivalent to a Casio Pocket Viewer. I can read what's in it, but I can't add to it. And the screen is so badly cracked, only parts of it work.

Obviously, I need a new machine. Will I go with a CLIE? Or how about the Toshiba GENIO? Or maybe that new HP 56x? None of these choices existed at the start of this year. We Palm owners could ignore the iPaqers, just based on size arguments alone.

But now there's a PPC that is no larger than a Palm III. And now there's also a Palm (CLIE) that is smaller than a Palm III (yes, I know the Vs were around -- but I loathed those). Great color screens. Very appealing form factors. Both (GENIO and CLIE) more powerful than past Palm devices.

I think many other people are struggling with a similar decision. Hence the heightened debate recently.

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 2:59:54 PM #
Mikecane may be onto something. I love my Palm M505, but I to am beginning to have serious doubts as to whether my next PDA will be a PalmOS device or not. And I don't think I'm alone. I don't think the Palm platform is dead, but I do think its begining to lose steam. Plus, with the current state the economy is in, Palm may implode right before our eyes!

Congratulations! pocketpcinfocenter.com is available.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 3:11:59 PM #
Congratulations! ppcinfocenter.com is available.

http://www.networksolutions.com/

It's all yours, Ed!


RE: PocketPC marketshare?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 3:15:21 PM #
It's a zombie. it's dead but doesn't know it yet.

Dead Man Walkin'!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 3:32:40 PM #
GG

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
mikecane @ 9/9/2001 4:16:33 PM #
What marvelous little proto-Hitler Youths there are here! Anything that does not have PalmOS praise in it, anything that even hints at other possibilities, brings out the jack-booted pimpleheads to Sieg Heil their allegiance to their current brand of PDA. Goebells is laughing in his rotting grave -- and yet you guys probably think you uphold freedom and the American Way.

Uh...Please don't be so melodramatic.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 5:04:28 PM #
GG

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
mikecane @ 9/9/2001 5:12:23 PM #
If you can bother to scribble GG, why not go the whole hog and register?

RE: PocketPC marketshare?
Deslock @ 9/10/2001 2:40:31 PM #
> $320 street price? Quit pulling numbers out of your ass.

That's what I paid at dell.com (it was on sale).

> Perhaps he means Net price.

I use the terms interchangeably (most people I know consider street price and net price to be the same). However, to be more specific, I paid $320 "net price".

On a related topic, I went to dinner Saturday night with a large group of people (mostly programmers) who were friends of a friend (so I only knew a few of them).

I pulled my Clie N610C out of my pocket to write down a phone number and they were all mucho impressed. As it turns out, some of them owned IPAQs (purchased by their companies), but none of them had their IPAQ with them because they said they're too bulky to carry around. They loved holding the Clie and said it was significantly smaller then the IPAQ (even without the exapnsion sleeve).

I've used the IPAQ too and don't think it's *that much* larger than the Clie, but for some people it's bigger enough to make the difference between carrying it in your pocket or leaving it at home (obviously, other people don't mind carrying a larger unit).

So, dimensions and weight don't tell the whole story... despite being only 1/2 oz lighter, the Clie's shape is much more ergonomic than the IPAQ and the Clie fits in a pocket a lot more comfortably.

Anyway, like I wrote, both platforms have advantages and disadvantages... figure out your needs and choose what's appropriate. Enough of this silly holy war.

which months

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 11:51:41 AM #
These data are for which time period ?

Wrong?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:35:22 PM #
Ed, your data is slightly off. Palm does not have an even 50% share. It's more like 43-46%. Somewhere in there. Not a big deal, but still not 50.

RE: Wrong?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:49:28 PM #
How do you know?

More accurate data here:

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:39:49 PM #
According to this, PocketPC has closer to 20% of the US retail maket:

http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/07/0907palm.html?partner=yahoo&referrer=

RE: More accurate data here:
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:45:55 PM #
Forbes is just quoting IDC, another research firm. How do you know they are more accurate than NPD?

PALM vs. MERLIN:

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 12:40:36 PM #
RE: PALM vs. MERLIN:
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 1:08:38 PM #
Quoting:

"Right now the game is Palm's to lose. Combine all the devices that use the Palm operating system together, including Handspring's (nasdaq: HAND - news - people) Visor line and Sony's (nyse: SNE - news - people) Clie, among others, and you're talking about 69% of the worldwide handheld market, compared to 17% for PocketPC, according to market research firm IDC, Framingham, Mass"

RE: PALM vs. MERLIN:
Smaug @ 9/7/2001 6:58:30 PM #
Umm thats worldwide not US which this is

RE: PALM vs. MERLIN:
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 10:44:00 PM #
Hey, its a global marketplace. PPC is still losing. Clie N710C nearly outsold IPAQ in its short life span. Face it..people use Windows all of the time at their desks. Its nice to have something different to look at that doesn't crash every 6 seconds.

I ain't rich. . .

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 1:02:57 PM #
This goes to show that contrary to many folks who post on this site, the “typical” user isn’t totally concerned with a lot of bells and whistles and more importantly, isn’t willing or able to spend $500 on what to most people is a day planner/PDA, NOT a handheld computer. Sure, everyone would like color, mp3-capability, etc., etc., etc., but only at a certain price point. I really think Palm’s biggest error was abandoning the mid-range market by pulling the IIIxe and not providing a suitable replacement. Sony on the other hand, seems to have the entire range covered with the Clie – from a relatively “cheap” base model, a mid-range “step up” model, to a top-of-line, full-blown PC Pocket fighter. Palm for the better half of this year only had the “goofy-looking” m100 series or the “car note” priced m500’s. A new Pocket PC is coming out priced at about $650. Yeah, right. Let’s see, pay the house note or buy a PDA. No brainer. Include a lifetime warranty, theft and damage protection and unlimited replacements when new OS’s comes out and MAYBE I can swing it. Here’s what I want in a PDA:

Relatively low cost (i.e., under $300, closer to $200)
Durability like a cell phone
Light weight
“Reasonable” good looks


RE: I ain't rich. . .
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 1:30:57 PM #
Amen to that.

Sorry, but my IIIx still functions, does all I need it to, has plenty of expansion options (tons of after-market add-ons), etc. Why should I upgrade? In a year or so, when color, high-res and the advantages of the memory slots shake out, then perhaps I might just buy a new one. Until then... no chance.

The IIIx I have has served me well for the past 2+ years.

RE: I ain't rich. . .
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 1:02:08 PM #
I paid $265 including tax for a Kyocera Qcp 6035 at at OfficeMax.. plus I got a $100 mail in rebate.

Business Users Pay For Performance
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 10:26:15 PM #
I know an ex-fanatical-Palm Vx-er who now swears by his iPaq. Reason is he uses it for business purposes and money is not really an issue since he is the GM. He showed me the iPaq and what wins me too is that the email attachments like Word docs get transfered automatically amd can be opened on the device itself without messing with 3rd party apps add-ons. Now that is cool. I just want a device that works, and works out of the box. Period. I am still using my trusty Palm Vx now, but perhaps by the end of the year I shall review the whole situation again. My friend is thinking of switching his whole organisation to iPaq. Being a business owner myself I must say I am also tempted to switch once my Palms are fully depreciated.

Sony is cool today...

AriB @ 9/7/2001 1:05:09 PM #
I'm happy that Sony took that share. It shows if you deliver on good stuff people will buy it. However they'll have to constantly innovate. Look what happened to Handspring. They came out with 16 bit color and USB first but Palm has that too. Now Handspring isn't as exciting anymore. It's all a matter of time before Palm will have all the Clie features and Sony will have to come up with new stuff.

RE: Sony is cool today...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 3:20:22 PM #
If anyone can do innovate on a regular basis, it's Sony...

RE: Sony is cool today...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 4:35:21 PM #
Sony indeed may have great hardware, but until they get off their butts and give some customer service, I wouldn't have another one!!!
I bought the N710C...........not OS 4.0. Within a couple of weeks, they come out with the 610 WITH OS 4.0 and no update for the previous suckers who purchased the 710
NOW, they are coming out with a new 7x0 model and leaving the N710C customers behind. THANKS A LOT, SONY. NEVER AGAIN will I purchase another SONY product of any kind.

RE: Sony is cool today...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 5:31:54 PM #
Okay, please tell me where Sony difinitivly states that there will NOT be an upgrade for 710 users? They obviously have a 710 with 4.0 running, and they are giving it a different part number (760/770). Why read anymore into that? It's just a new part number for the same hardware with slight modifications. They do the same thing with all their products. Any idea how many different model numbers there are for the PlayStation? Lots.
I think 710 owners who want 4.0 need to lay off the anger and think for a second. No company (other than Palm itself, and then, not for every model) has announced upgrades to 4.0. As far as I know, no company is currently offering the upgrade (includeing Palm - I could be wrong on that I guess). It is not yet time to damn Sony, have a little patience and a little faith. Most news reports that mention it say that Sony officials say there will be an upgrade, they just don't have the details worked out. Given the size of Sony, that doesn't surprise me...


RE: Sony is cool today...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 5:36:35 PM #
Say you buy from Palm or Handspring, after one month, they cut the price by $100. Can you ask them for the $100 back?

I bought a Visor before Handspring gave a rebate. It was after the refund period.........

RE: Sony is cool today...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 11:23:30 PM #

My Questions:

Why is no one complaining that Palm has not released its OS4 to all the existing Palm handheld users? How about HandEra? Have they released OS4 for the 330 users yet?

My point is that up till today, PalmOS 4 has not been released for upgrade by any company yet. So why are Clie users so impatient?



OS4 upgrade
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 8:01:17 AM #
Were those above posts actually posted 9/7?? Are you guys reading what news? Palm will give you OS4 upgrade to you so will Sony. Open your eyes, please.

http://www.palm.com/software/palmos4.html

RE: Sony is cool today...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 1:45:25 PM #
The reason OS4 would be so important for the N710 is the 65,000 Color Support, included in the hardware but not in the OS

Alternate Title: Sony still Last.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 3:01:40 PM #
nt

RE: Alternate Title: Sony still Last.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 3:19:58 PM #
Palm - in the market since March 1996
Handspring - in the market since September 1999
Sony - in the market since March (?) 2001

Yeah, after it's first few months on the market, Sony is still behind, but you're missing the point. Sony is growing. Fast. Faster then Palm the original Palm, faster than the original Visor. Check back on the numbers after Sonys had time to build there brand in the market, I suspect they'll be much more in Sony's favor.

RE: Alternate Title: Sony still Last.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 4:14:16 PM #
Let's not forget Handera. I own one of the three that they actually sold.

RE: Alternate Title: Sony still Last.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 4:20:56 PM #
Yeah, and I own the second of the three actually sold. We're in last place! So quit giving Sony credit they don't deserve.

RE: Alternate Title: Sony still Last.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 4:26:47 PM #

I also have a Handera and frankly don't care where it stands in these statistics.

It's all relative to your needs and wants.

Porsche doesn't sell as many 911 Carara's as Chevy does Cavaleirs. But we all know which one is the superior machine.

They also don't advertise to the masses since they focus is on a very elite (well ok rich) group of people.

Handera is a wise company that focus their efforts where they will do the most good, but I think if they did decide to market their device like the other companies do, they would have quite a respectible chunk of these figures.

Am I a trouble maker or what ;)



RE: Alternate Title: Sony still Last.
martopiggus @ 9/8/2001 1:02:50 AM #
"Sony - in the market since March (?) 2001"

Huh? I thought s300 released last year or even earlier... and don't forget the never-made-it-to-the-US *COLOR* s500.



RE: Alternate Title: Sony still Last.
stonemirror @ 9/10/2001 12:10:00 AM #
Some anonymous troll writes

Porsche doesn't sell as many 911 Carara's as Chevy does Cavaleirs. But we all know which one is the superior machine.

Superior in what sense? The Posche costs eight times as much to buy as the Cavalier, and probably at least half again as much to own. If it doesn't last at least eight times as long, and if cost of ownership is your main metric, then which one is "the superior machine"?

m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 3:04:15 PM #
As it states in the article. 20% of Palm's 50% marketshare is m500's. In that case, that's 10% of the total marketshare, equivalent sales. This doesn't include any other Palm Handhelds, only the m500 series. Hmm.... How does this article look impressive? Sony can't even outsell Handspring's dated Prism and Edge?

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 3:20:15 PM #
What is it with the stronly Anti-Sony? Let me repeat, Palm's been in the market a long time (some would say they started it), Handsprings been in a few years (headed by the former people), Sony just jumped in. In any market it takes time to build a name for yourself. Give it time, Let's look in a year or two, when the brand has time to build, how well they compete...

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 3:50:30 PM #
Theres been some real strong Sony supporters saying that the 770 sales have swamped the m505s for months and that harly anyone bought the m505 at all. Now theres some facts to prove them wrong I'm surprised there's not more gloating. I think Sony's units are better than Palm's but the m505 seems good too and I'm tired of all the bickering.

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 5:40:29 PM #
(1) According to the article, M505 accounds for %15 of the 50%, that is 7.5% which is the 2.5% less than Sony's market share.

(2) The article said the number was "in the recent weeks". It didn't say anything about is the market share the cumulative one or the units sold in one particular period? m505 has been out longer than N710C, so if the market share is the cumulative one, then you can divide the share by the time and you will find m505 sold much less than N710C per month in average.

(3) N710C is reallly hard to get, just go to retail store to see if you can get one!

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 10:49:06 PM #
Sonys color Clie isnt available worldwide like the others...The still gained 7% market share.

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
Davy @ 9/8/2001 12:39:14 AM #
The is american sales, not worldwide. Could all the Clie users come up with one excuse for poor sales? It gets old to hear 101 reasons why the Clie doesn't have more share, when all they could talk about was the "massive sales" over the past 3 months.

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
martopiggus @ 9/8/2001 12:57:32 AM #
I bought my Clie for almost 2 months via Sony pre-order, and yet now it's still hard to buy it anywhere in Hong Kong (only a few big players in electronics)

Is Sony incompetent or what?

Oh well...

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 3:33:58 AM #
I believe they mean the M500 and M505 when they say M500 series, just incase any body was confused

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 11:32:45 PM #
Very mature discussion.

I'm sick of you idiots bashing the m505
Davy @ 9/9/2001 10:21:19 PM #
I'm the moderator of the m505 user group on Yahoo Groups and I have over 2300 members in my group. We're all sick of you Sony people constantly saying how bad the m505 is. You're all just JEALOUS!!!

Why don't you all just stop the m505 bashing and get on with your lives?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/m505

www.davyfields.com

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 12:31:16 AM #
you can get sick as much as you want, but that still doesn't make m505 to have better screen or able to do mp3 all in one sleek package.

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 3:37:16 AM #
Davy,

Are you the same person that wrote:

"The chief competitor for the Clie 320, is in fact, the m125. Already, even with the head-start, even the most glazed Clie owners can admit that the m125 will heavily outsell the Clie 320. Most people have bad memory's of the first Clie, the new one just a new second digit. Although Clie products may innovate, they will not-outsell, at least not for the forseable future."

Pardon me, but that sounds like some product bashing to me. Where are these "glazed Clie owners?" Have you met with them? Did they sign a declaration stating: "We, the glazed Clie owners, have been given expressed permission from the moderator of the m505 user group in the Yahoo Groups with over 2300 members that we can now admit that the m125 will heavily outsell the Clie S320?"

I've visited your Users Group and it is clear that you bash the Clie every chance you get. Considering that you're the moderator, this is quite frequent.

When asking for peace in the Clie/Palm debate, don't let hypocrisy (and a clear and hyperbolized bias) stand in your way.

It's alright to be enthusiastic about a device, but be sure to allow others the same amount of enthusiasm. I'm sure that if we all had the time, we'd all moderate our own Users Group, but the simple fact of the matter is that most of the readers on this site actually have to pay rent, utilities, and other sorts of payments in life. All of which means that we have jobs that require us to be away from the things like moderating a Users Group, going on vacations to Australia, going to rich prep schools, etc.

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2001 1:32:11 AM #
Well said Anonymous, Davy is one big huge freaking hypocrite. Just look at the polls section of his m505 Yahoo Group, look under "what palm did you have before getting the m505" Under Clie, there's a "Yeah we want the converters".

And a long time ago (deleted now) there were polls made by Davy directly bashing the Clie too.

And, to make things worse, Davy even e-mailed one of the moderators of the Clie Users Group and told him not encourage his members not to bash m505 users, and that he himself has sent an email to all of his m505 users to not bash the Clie users. Funny, I am a member of the m505 group and didn't get such an email, And, I haven't seen a single m500/505 bashing in the Clie group.

RE: m500 Series outsells all Clie's, on it's own!
mikecane @ 9/11/2001 9:00:25 AM #
It has come to my attention that the posts under the name "davyfields" and "davy" are most likely impostors. It seems Ed has already deleted those posts -- along with some replies. Please don't fall for the troll bait! I loathe impostors! (See, yet another reason to properly register with PIC!)

Stop it with the OS 4.0 crying

drw @ 9/7/2001 5:49:14 PM #
What's so special about OS 4.0 over 3.52? It's a proven fact that early adopters get scrod one way or the other. Samsung is going to release the I300 incomplete with some of the features to be implemented later on. Kyocera users are still waiting for the wireless carriers to get their updating act together.

David in Pflugerville, TX
RE: Stop it with the OS 4.0 crying
Smaug @ 9/7/2001 7:05:54 PM #
umm 4.0 is faster and has 16bit color?

RE: Stop it with the OS 4.0 crying
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 3:47:46 PM #
if Palm OS is Linux, the 4.0 will be called 1.00.13 instead. the 4.0 is just a bug fix and minor feature addition.

CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/7/2001 7:40:36 PM #
RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
mikecane @ 9/7/2001 8:22:09 PM #
Let's put this in perspective. MS has been working on this for over a year. And so what do they release? They *still* release a Pocket Word that *cannot* do subscripts or superscripts! ARGH! (I guess they put all the programmers in doing MSN Messenger -- wow, how exciting...)

RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 8:18:21 AM #
I am not anti-PPC, but I find difficult to see how cool PPC2002 is... What is so good about it, seriously? WinXP like "Home"? I can't even compare it with Silverscreen.

RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 11:19:42 AM #
yeah man, who could resist the blotched black pixles on yucky green background. It's all about Zen.

$499 Palm can't compete.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 11:24:55 AM #
Once genio and J-560 hits the market m505 won't be able to compete, since they are both similarly priced to m505 but has far superior hardware/OS features.

Palm should come up with better machine before chrismast or they will only have market share less than 20% by the end of the year.

RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 1:28:40 PM #
Troll!!! Begone!!!!

RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
AriB @ 9/9/2001 4:53:51 AM #
and PalmOS has better software. WHat's the point of all that fancy hardware if you can't run Wordsmith on it? I don't think you're running an Alpha workstation because it is too expensive and doesn't run the apps you need...

RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 2:53:54 PM #
Better software like what? Wordsmith? that's it?

can Palm open 2Mb of spreadhseet in Hebrew alphabet yet? How about opening a 4Mb word document? Embed simple symbols? multiple open while faxing it on the background and making a scribble note?

(let's pull the classic line, yeah but does it do quake? wordprocessor, simple database, and PIM are child's play it doesn't require massive OS/CPU power.)

Plus if WordSmith is that good it would be ported to PPC by now. (not that anybody wants to pay $30 bucks for it when you can get better pWord 2002 for free.)



RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 8:24:30 AM #
Why do I want to be able to open a spreadsheet in the Hebrew alphabet? That's completely useless to me and 99.9% of other PDA owners. Having that (or any other) functionality in there for people who don't need it is a waste of memory and processing power. I don't need to be able to do word processing on a PDA. I'll do that on my laptop or desktop thank you very much and use my PDA for simple reviewing and minor edits. Microsoft's arguments are still the same: we have more features and higher hardware requirements than you really need, and you pay extra for it. Wake me up when Microsoft has something I can use instead of telling me what I need and making it harder to do.

RE: CNET First Take: Pocket PC 2002
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 9:47:27 AM #
It's not the hebrew, but the unicode. Most large corporate user has some sort of international documents. (french, spanish, etc)

and "why would anybody want that' argument also was Palm's answer to color, audio, bigger screen real estate, internet gateway, and more memory.

Great Pocket PC 2002 Review

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 2:16:23 PM #
New HP Jornada. NICE!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 10:18:44 PM #
Mobius 2001
mikecane @ 9/9/2001 12:56:19 PM #
http://articles.pocketnow.com/content.cgi?db=articles&id=43

-- I might as well jump in too. New HP and GENIO pics.

wow...neat stuff!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 8:52:23 AM #
GG

PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 3:32:27 PM #
RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
Altema @ 9/8/2001 4:27:26 PM #
"Any doubts about Microsoft Corp.'s dominance in the handheld device market..."

This group clearly has it's head in the sand, unless they are talking about demos at this particular show. The article clearly says the devices "show" better. Yep, we all buy handhelds to run demos, right? That must be the answer, because the PPC guys where I work still can't get that "Productivity" thing going.

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
Altema @ 9/8/2001 4:38:07 PM #
Just as a side note, IDG (who published this article) is also the publisher of PC World.

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 9:06:19 PM #
Altema, what is your point? IDG publishes PC World...not PocketPC World? You think the whole world is out to get Palm? Get real. The point of this article is that PocketPC is the center attraction at this years DemoMobile. No matter how biased you think IDG may be, the facts of this article still remain. PalmOS is a second string player at DemoMobile 2001. Who's fault is that, Microsoft's or Palm's? Think about it.

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
Altema @ 9/9/2001 2:21:55 AM #
The point is that there appears to be a slight bias, and that the company leans more towards the Microsoft side. The article is a Palm VS PPC writing, and starts off with an incorrect statement. The rest of the article is pretty informative, and I have no contention with that. In marketing, the flash and appearance of the presentations are important factors, and this event highlights that factor. The more attractive PPC screen, combined with it's better (for now) multimedia, make it a best bet for this type of event. Small, slick, and reliable are not exactly attention getters. There are other reasons why the PPC platform was heavily utilized this year, and your comments are thought provoking. One of the things helping the flip-flop in demos is that the PPC market is relatively new, and developers do not have to deal with as much product saturation. PPC has two major applications which are outside the normal PIM range, but those are not as good as their existing Palm counterparts, so there is room for a lot of new products. The Palm OS software base is pretty well covered (we'll ignore the really stupid programs!), and the major applications are difficult to compete with for a startup company. There are a few examples of new Palm OS apps that rattle the cage by taking an existing type of application, and break out of the mold in capability and performance (WordSmith and Ababall come to mind). But, it's hard to shake things up when the jar is so full. Of course we COULD get rid of things like the "Handy Belch Monitor" and go after those areas that REALLY need attention, like a full fledged email application that handles attachments without a desktop PC. I'd love to chat more, but it's getting late. Take care...

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 12:02:20 PM #
sharp color screen a flashy marketing trick? excuse me but screen technology is one of the more difficult thing to accomplish, ever wonder why Palm is having difficulty getting color screen right or putting bigger resolution? That's right, Palm does not have the technological know how.

and let's skip the multimedia.

It's like saying Porche's engine is just a marketing trick in a car industry, afterall is not like anybody can use it within the speed limit.

Palm's idea of cutting edge OS/Hardware upgrade is vibrating alarm, not streaming moving picture or viewing 100Mb of corporate database file.

If one wants to talk about snazzy marketing gimmick, than the Claudia schiffer and Jordan model would be one, not a model with snazzy color screen and a processor strong enough to handle wireless speech recognition. (or how about that new look of m125?)

the so called snazzy gimmick is actually a technological leap that Palm Inc cannot duplicate in their product, due to lack of technological know-how, delinited by their frantic buy out of Be and the ever so late 5.0.

anybody notice how pathetic it is mentioning wordsmith & ababall compare to what is available in pocket PC?

If one survey the Palm software titles, they are limited to simple text, list and calculator like program, with one or two excellent developer tools, unlike the nirvana of software titles for user Palm Inc would like us to believe.

Observe how nobody mentions program such as datebook as superior to what is available to pocket pc anymore and this is supposedly the unbeatable Palm PIM function. 5 Months ago this would be the first title to be brought up as evident that palm is superior.

Small, sleek, reliable? yeah you can say that again...
don't forget to mention Zen, palm economy and simplicity along with it too. Now we are talking about marketing gimmick. Palm Inc. models is not even the smallest/sleekest anymore compare to Clie never mind genio or j56x. It is one of the most expensive for what it can/cannot do tho'.

reliability? two words: SD mems.

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
Altema @ 9/9/2001 7:57:38 PM #
> sharp color screen a flashy marketing trick?

Don't know where your got that, it wasn't from me. I stated the PPC screens were better.

> let's skip the multimedia.

Does that mean I have to delete my music videos? :-(

> viewing 100Mb of corporate database file.

I'd like to see that. Really. The HP Jordana 568, one of the first to run PocketPC 2002 and the one with the most memory, can't. Neither can the 558's in my department, neither can my boss' Casio. At least the new models seem to do away with having to drag around an extension cord.

> how pathetic it is mentioning wordsmith

Is there another wordprocessor for PPC other than Pocket Word? Must be, because I know you can't be referring to the Pocket Word that I know. It must be a new version.

> If you survey the Palm software titles, they are limited to simple text, list and calculator like program

You are forgetting that, according to PocketPC Magazine, the most requested apps for the PPC platform were Word and Excel type applications. Unfortunately they both fall short of their Palm counterparts. This is based on real world usage, on real handhelds of both types, used by real IT professionals in an environment with 15,000 employees. Ironically, our Microsoft-only management just purchased Palm OS devices for our Field Engineers.

> not even the smallest/sleekest anymore

Opinions are not as accurate as tape measures. I like the Clie personally and have sold customers on them when visiting stores, but they are longer, thicker, and heavier.

> reliability? two words: SD mems.

Not sure if you mean SD mem is the answer to PPC reliability, or if you mean that SD mem on the Palm is not reliable. I've had no trouble with SD.

It would be pointless to go on, as you have the device of your preference and that's fine with me, I would not tell you to drop your platform because of my opinion, and I hope the same would be true for you. I could not care less about that "zen" thing, and I have the device I have because it's very good at what I need it to do. A PPC would have been cheaper, and I am intimately familiar with Windows. But I spent the extra cash because the Palm was better suited for my work load. I do disagree with mis-representation, and that was my only contention to begin with.

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 11:49:13 PM #
100Mb database viewing: any mem card will do, since the memory extension will act transparently as internal memory extension. There is a reason why corporate users cannot carry the entire 20.000 employees data with Palm, let alone trasnfer these wirelessly. Palm OS file system cannot handle this without choking, even if it can it is highly unusable with the flat tree file viewing. Ever try to organize 60-80 documents in flat file mode?

The same argument goes with 48 Meg of gaming files like pocket Quake or Fades. CF card is dirt cheap, one can get 128Mb for about $80 on the net right now so this is practical argument.

Palm OS cannot handle this situation smoothly since it was design originally as a organiser with only several thousand addresses or appointments in mind. The era of 10kb type of file is over. The world has moved on from simple tiny B/W text to rich media files and they are measured in Mb's not kb's

as for price, we all wait for Palm Inc to come up with color machine that goes for $350. Want dirt cheap PPC? get black and white discounted iPaq for $150, still cheaper than discounted m500.

bottom line, Palm is only good for $80-100 dolar organizer class handheld type of activity.



RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
stonemirror @ 9/10/2001 12:01:48 AM #
Yeah, I'm having a difficult time seeing how being the "flavor of the week" at Demomobile translates into "Microsoft's dominance of the handheld market".

Particularly since, for example, Handspring (all on their lonesomes) have a higher percentage of the handheld market than all the PPC manufactures put together.



RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 12:12:39 AM #
it's all about money my dear, the fact that iPAQ is gobbling up sales as big as Palm's.

and secondly, the sales percentage are tipping to PPC at alarming rate. Palm is dropping at a rate of 10%/ quarter.

this is what Wall street like to hear, not the fact that Palm is winning market share because it is giving away its devices.

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
Davy @ 9/10/2001 12:29:50 AM #
Why don't you PocketPC TROLLS just stop posting here. PALM controls 80% of the PDA market share. Microsoft barely shows up on the screen.

The iPAQ is nothing but an overpriced TOY and the new PocketPC models are doomed to fail just like everything else Microsoft has put out

RE: PocketPC steals the show, Palm fades at DEMOmobile
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 1:01:33 AM #
80% market share, 100,000 developers, 10,000 titles all nice numbers, but does it excites wallstreet? does it sell handheld?

yeah, lets see the financial number for this quarter shall we? PALM close at 2.73 friday.

The "toy" sure makes people think which handheld to get next. Wireless transfer of musical slide show of last fishing trip sure sounds amusing handheld trick to be shared with friends and family.

who wants that drab black and white zen simplificity machine...

Some implications

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 10:06:07 PM #
1. Power users account for a small (but vocal) slice of the market.
2. The bulk of the sales are for basic models.

I can't tell whether the figures quoted include corporate sales, but the ancedotal evidence is that executives want solid PIM functionality, simple and reliable operation, synchronisation with desktop, some expandability and small form factor. Beleive it or not most executives won't buy a m100 series because they look like toys (I've heard similar comments about CLIE too). Bells and whistles (like colour screens, MP3, etc) are nice but not if they compromise the basic requirements.

All this points to the m500 having a huge potential, except for it's unreasonable price. If the m500 price was pitched in the mid-range, its sales would rocket.


RE: Some implications
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/8/2001 10:43:10 PM #
yeah right...

what mid range? do you think consumers are stupid and cannot compare price vs features? for what m500 offers, I wouldn't be surprise if it will fall around $170 before Christmas.


RE: Some implications
mikecane @ 9/9/2001 12:47:49 PM #
..and that would mean? $30 m1xxs?

RE: Some implications
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2001 3:04:05 PM #
aren't they the same? just minor cosmetic differences.

I dont think it warrant $200 cost difference.

RE: Some implications
mikecane @ 9/9/2001 4:20:32 PM #
Hmmm!

Palm drives DEMO God award at DEMOmobile

rklincoln @ 9/10/2001 9:51:39 PM #
As someone who just launched a product at DEMOmobile, I'd like to weigh in on some of these issue. My product - Copytalk - garnered a DEMO God award in Palm V-based demo, without even a hint of an iPaq or Jornada

Short pitch (but also context): Copytalk is aimed at the mobile executive. It allows users to make a simple phone call (cell phone or any phone) and then simply speak naturally to dictate emails, contacts, appointments, to-dos - basically any information supported on a Palm-Powered device. Copytalk then sends the email like it came from your desktop - as text - and at the next sync puts the entries in your PDA as though you'd done them by hand. The service will start at $24.50/month when it becomes publicly available (you can pre-register for a free preview now). I'm going to work w/Ed on getting a review done for PIC, but give us a few weeks :)

We chose the Palm platform because it has the largest installed base among mobile professionals (by a factor of something like 4 or 5 to one); because it's the platform of choice for convergence devices (has anyone seen a PPC or Stinger cell phone in production/use?); because it has wider support among a variety of manufacturers and related service providers; and finally, because all of these things come together (along with sites like this) to create a real and reachable market.

We DEMO'd it on stage w/a Palm V and a sync cable and had on hand in the demo pavillion:
a Visor Edge/Visorphone;
a Visor Platinum/Omnisky
a Palm VII;
a Kyocera Smartphone
and 3 Palm Vx's w/Omnisky sleds.
(you don't need wireless on your PDA to use Copytalk, but it's pretty cool to talk on a phone and then retrieve the work into the PDA w/out even using a desktop)

In short - there's a real, available and growing market of mobile executives -- something like 16 million have been delivered according to Palm's CMO --using Palm-Powered devices that I can reach without spending millions on advertising. The same is just not true of the PPC market.

We got asked a lot "why aren't you on PPC" - and we gave the answer above. I only had one or two folks really question it.

Will we support the MS platform in the future? Maybe, but right now, my service will be a complete success if I can get 2% of the 16 million strong Palm user base, and for now I'm putting my energies at reaching them.

Robert Lincoln

RE: Palm drives DEMO God award at DEMOmobile
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2001 10:57:28 PM #
Microsoft is planning to release speech recognition power toy along with '2002'

It's free.

RE: Palm drives DEMO God award at DEMOmobile
rklincoln @ 9/10/2001 11:59:45 PM #
I guarantee that it won't do what we can do - it won't be particularly useful at all.

Robert Lincoln
Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass:

Latest Comments

  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST((SELECT/**/CASE/**/IS_SRVROLEMEM
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST((SELECT/**/CASE/**/IS_SRVROLEMEM
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST((SELECT/**/CASE/**/IS_SRVROLEMEM
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST(db_name()/**/AS/**/NVARCHAR(4000
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST(db_name()/**/AS/**/NVARCHAR(4000
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST(db_name()/**/AS/**/NVARCHAR(4000
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST(db_name()/**/AS/**/NVARCHAR(4000
  • My comments --1' OR UNICODE(SUBSTRING((SELECT/**/ISNULL(CAST(db_name()/**/AS/**/NVARCHAR(4000