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Comments on: Handspring to Announce Visor Pro and Neo

Handspring is going to announce on Monday two new Visor models. The Visor Pro is a mid-range model and will be the first ever to ship with 16 MB of RAM. It will cost $300. The Visor Neo is a low-end model that will have 8 MB of RAM and come in three possible casing colors. It will be $200.

Both of these new handhelds have monochrome screens, run the 33 MHz Dragonball VZ processor, and have regular Springboard slots.

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Same old crap, new bucket.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:17:09 PM #
Just what the world needs: more over-priced, monochrome Visors.

RE: Very Competetive
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:21:16 PM #
The Neo is the exact same price as the SONY 320, has the same amount of memory and comes with a cradle. The 320 just has a cord. So how is it over-priced?

The Pro has twice as much RAM as any Palm ever had and its only $300. That's $30 less than the m500 and the Pro is better. What's over-priced about that?

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:25:56 PM #
and i suppose you would say that 16 megs ram is the same old crap?

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:27:04 PM #
I still wish you could upgrade the OS but I guess it's not that big of a deal.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:31:09 PM #
How many people have used 8 megs? Or 4? The whole world wants a color wireless device and Handspring says, "Sure, it's grey-scale, but, look at ALL THAT MEMORY!" Compaq gets it: they are DUMPING their monochrome devices. Handspring has another flop. There is NOTHING you can do with these devices that you couldn't do with the original Visor from 1999. They are basically unchanged. What makes Handspring think they're going to sell? Because they're "new"?

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:45:11 PM #
I read in the WSJ last week that HandSpring has three times the sales of Compaq. Maybe its Compaq that doesn't get it.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:50:23 PM #
Compaq surpassed Handspring in PDA revenues. That's what counts.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:54:46 PM #
No...that's not what counts. Profits are what counts.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:56:33 PM #
And Handspring has yet to turn one. These devices won't change that.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 11:53:01 PM #
as has been stated (many) times before on these boards, compaq brings in more revenues selling handhelds, but since they cost twice what a mid-range visor costs, actual numbers of handhelds sold is key to evaluate who is doing more business.
plus, people need to remember that these handhelds have different markets. some people want high-resolution kick-ass color screens, other people just want someplace to keep their appointments and contacts (my boss, for example. she has an m100, used to have a IIIx), and still others (like me) want what is essentially a reference book, and need lots of memory for that.
speaking of memory, i have a IIIxe, and have to (fairly frequently) sacrifice documents and large applications that i don't use frequently to make room for more stuff. i use my pda as a mobile filing cabinet, so i can have important information on hand when necessary, and i've found i can't do that and keep all the functionality i want application-wise. so, i'd adore a 16mb handheld. or an expandable one, which is why my next handheld will probably be an m505, but that's not set in stone. and don't take that to mean that i think grayscale handhelds are useless, it's just that i'm a little neurotic, and would love to be able to organize things in datebk4 by color, not just icon.

still having trouble with that posting-while-logged-in thing (ryan, help?).
- kezza

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:24:24 AM #
these two new models are just crap.

Let's compare: S320 Vs NEO (basically, NEO = Platinum) Vs PRO

Price: $199 Vs $199 Vs $299 (S320 and NEO draw)
Memory: 8Mb Vs 8Mb Vs 16Mb (PRO wins)
CPU: exactly the same 33Mhz CPU.
Flash MEM: 4Mb Vs No Vs No (S320 wins)
External Memory: Memory stick is just cheaper and more convienent than those spring board add ons!
Features: JogDial Vs Fast Find (JogDial is simply better)
OS: 4.0 (upgradable) Vs 3.5 (non upgradable)
Stylish: S320 just looks better
Size: S320 is probably smaller because it uses memory stick instead of Springboard module.


S320 was released a month ago, why buy the new handspring model?


Springboard vs. Memory Stick
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:44:01 AM #
Let's continue the comparison.

Current uses for Memory Stick:
Storage

Current uses for Springboard:
Storage
Wireless networking
Digital camera
Mobile phone
Presenter-to-Go
Use CF or SmartMedia
ETC

In some areas, Sony and Palm are still playing catch-up to Handspring. Putting a memory Springboard in adds the space to RAM. There's no ****ing around with software written by some guy in Japan that sort of runs programs from the card. It just works. PowerRun is trying to do the same thing Springboards have been able to do for years.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 10:54:54 AM #
I can't understand anyone NOT having used up 8 mb, much less 4 MB. I need 16 mb now and I think the majority of users will too before very long.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:26:57 PM #
It's the same old crap, especially in comparison to the Sony PEG-S320, because it's still a big, blocky, poorly manufactured VISOR. I owned the Visor Deluxe for awhile and was so very happy to be rid of it (via Best Buy upgrade plan) when the Sony came out. With Sony, gone are the crooked screen, bulky cheez-casing, lousy display. Sony knows how to manufacture electronic devices -- I went through three Visor Deluxe's before I finally got one with a screen that was only "mildly" crooked. Nice quality control, Handspring. Long Live Sony!

16MB of Memory, how pathetic!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 3:09:40 PM #
I'm using 256MB of CF in addition to 32MB of RAM on Ipaq. The CF costs around $100 only.

I don't know what you can do with 16MB of memory. But I'll tell you what I do with 256MB of CF:

1) 7 reference dictionary, drug interaction database, medical consultation, translantion dictionaries, etc

2) Street-level maps of entire california

3) Directory information, phone books of various stores.

4) 80% of application programs ran straight from CF

5) MP3 and Video Clips

6) Word documents

The list goes on.

RE: Expensive
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 4:56:08 PM #
Once you add the $650 of the iPaq to the equation, you have a solution that costs $350 more than the Visor Pro. Thats more than double. You can have lots of storage on any platform if cost is no object.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 6:51:27 PM #
This just shows how little Mr. "16MB of Memory, how pathetic!" knows. For example, take Skyscape's DrDrugs program for doctors.
"MEMORY REQUIREMENTS
Palm® OS: 1.9 MB
Windows® CE / Pocket PC: 5.4 MB"
As you can see, the Pocket PC is obviously superior because the same program takes nearly 3 times the room!
So take that same Handspring and add the spring board adapter or take a HandEra and add the 1GB mircodrive for $330. There are options on the PalmOS side too.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:07:02 PM #
Except you can't put Epocrates on CF, and good luck trying to run programs on CF, and imposssible to edit files stored on your CF...this is what you get with Palm OS PDAs.

Color Ipaq is expensive because it's in an entirely different class from Visor. If you compare it to the most expensive model of Sony, you're more or less making an equal comparison. But to get 256MB of Memory Stick, well, try your luck. I don't think it exists yet. 128MB of SD used in Palm costs $180 at least. So use your brain or your Palm, $180 for 128MB of SD, $100 for 256MB of CF, do the math.

On the other hand, if you wanna save money and still get a great machine capable of everything Palm does, plus built-in MP3 player, infinite expansion capability supported by standard CF and PCMCIA industries, then consider black and white Ipaq. You can get it for $99.

Now can we tell Handspring is going to disappear pretty soon? Yes. It's funny how people argue Handspring is trying to dominate low-end Palm market. Well, who's going to spend $100 on a low-end palm, then spend $200 on buying an expensive handspring springboard. The fact is, average users will never spend money on external springboard if they just need a cheap organizer. People who will use PDA like a compact-size notebook PC will look for something more powerful, more capable, more expandable with industry-supported standard...Handspring will never get to that point.

Handspring recently has moved to PDA/Wireless Phone market. In another words, they already gave up on their pure PDA organizer running on Palm. Instead, they will use Palm OS to build a communication device, not an electronic organizer, not a powerful compact-size laptop. That spells the end of a large Palm device company.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:29:16 PM #
I have 128MB and I paid less than $110. The price is really coming down in MS. I think it's a matter of time before CF will eventually disappear. Looks like it's going to be a battle between MS and SD.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:32:59 PM #
Good to know that. $110 for 128MB of MS. That's not bad. Sony is doing something to prolong its product life. It probably has the most competitive Palm devices out there.

The problem though, when you spend $300 or above to buy a PDA, you don't want to be limited with expansion options. CF is the industry-standard. How many GPS module can you find for SD or MS? There are at least 7 or 8 for CF. Can you use Sony or Palm PDA with Zip drive, Jazz drive, CDRom? No. But possible with PocketPC.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:40:40 PM #
I have a couple of corrections that I would like to point out about previous posts in this thread. First of all only a few springboards cost $200 or more and these springboards are the ones that connect you to a wireless LAN or convert your visor into a cell phone. A vast majority of the springboards available can be bought for under $100.

Second of all, bigger programs are not necessarily better. The fact that the WindozeCE program is bigger does not mean that it is "far superior." All that proves is that Microsoft's compiler for CE sucks. Why do you think Palm companies are just starting to come out with 16MB products while it's standard on CE devices. Microsoft isn't exactly known for small executables or efficiency. Take XP for instance... is it me or does it look like a Fisher Price toy? It requires 64MB (very slow) but recommends 128MB. This is the Microsoft pholosophy: "Upgrade to the newest, fastest hardware available, and we'll make it look like nothing actually happend."

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 12:20:07 AM #
The size of memory does not determine the quality of the program. Just because the PocketPC programs in general are larger than Palm doesn't mean they're better. However, it does NOT mean smaller Palm software are more superior either.

The bottom line is, with large hardware memory space, you can save more data. That's the bottom line. I used to use Mapopolis for Palm as a mapping software. Its LA county map is around 5MB, about the same size as the one on PocketPC. However, the one for PocketPC is in color. That makes a big difference.

I don't care how big the program is, as long as 1)they work well. Oh, boy, programs for PocketPC works like charm, never had to hard-reset once in 2 months. 2)I have enough hardware memory space to store thse programs. 3)the memory option is cheap.

If you think you can store more data on a 128MB space than on my 256MB. You're cheating yourself. And now, let's drop the topic of 16MB, shall we?

As far as springboard modules, give us a couple of products that are under $100. Besides, do you know how much CF ethernet/modem cost? $40. Any more questions?



RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 12:57:44 AM #
PalmInfoCenter just did a review on the "Beat Plus" springboard a couple of weeks ago. It is available for $79.95. You probably haven't read that since you only come here to talk up the PocketPC and not to read the articles. Typical Microsoft user...

Springboards under $100:

Handspring Modem Springboard - $39.99 at Amazon.com
Handspring VisorPhone (cell phone) - $49.99 at http://www.handspring.com/products/visorphone/index.jhtml">Handspring
OmniRemote Universal Remote Control - $59.95
StepKeeper Pedometer - $49.95
Merriam-Webster Dictionary - $49.95
Star Trek BookPak - $45.50
FlashPlus Compact Flash Module - $49.90 (plug standard CF cards into this one)
MemPlug CF Module - $49.95 (CF cards go in this one too)
MemPluc Smart Media Module - $49.95 (SM cards go in this one)
Memory Access (Memory, Vibrating and LED Alarms) - $44.50
dbNow Deluxe Module - $49.99
MyVox Voice Recorder - $69.95

These are just the highlights there's quite a few others for under $100. Also, two bluetooth modules have been announced (by different companies). Do PocketPCs support bluetooth? If they do it's probably Microsoft's own proprietary protocal rather than the accepted standard. It's for this same reason that you can't beam data from a PocketPC to a Palm device? Palm follows the IrDA standard, Microsoft follows their own standard...

"LA county map is around 5MB, about the same size as the one on PocketPC"

That's really nice that a map is the same size on both platforms, I would expect it to be since it's just raw data and not a compiled execuatable. Give me one instance where a PocketPC PROGRAM was actually smaller than a Palm program. Ain't gonna happen with how sloppy Microsoft is with memory usage.

Face it, your just a tool of Microcrap when you post all of this stuff about WindozeCE devices. Stop being a pest on a Palm site and go find a PPC site instead.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 2:34:25 AM #
First of all, if you think you own this website, or this particular topic, you might just put your name and signature on it. Until then, you have no right to criticize what other people think about your pathetic product. And if you think others' opinion is annoying or evening too harsh, well, that's life. Present your fact, and we'll argue about it. You don't own anything but your words. So be intelligent with what you said.

Now let's look at your SpringBoard for less than $100,

>Handspring Modem Springboard - $39.99 at Amazon.com

CF Modem about the same price

>Handspring VisorPhone (cell phone) - $49.99 at http://www.handspring.com/products/visorphone/index.jhtml"

Nothing for PocketPC yet. But guess why HS is dumping VisorPhone for $0?

>Handspring
OmniRemote Universal Remote Control - $59.95

Universal Remote Software, ~$10

>StepKeeper Pedometer - $49.95

Is this a game? And they put it on a separate module? Is there any more intelligent way of making money? So lame...Don't even start comparing games on Palm and PocketPC...

>Merriam-Webster Dictionary - $49.95

Oxford Dictionary - $19

>Star Trek BookPak - $45.50
FlashPlus Compact Flash Module - $49.90 (plug standard CF cards into this one)
MemPlug CF Module - $49.95 (CF cards go in this one too)
MemPluc Smart Media Module - $49.95 (SM cards go in this one)

Why do you need all these adapter modules if your intention is to use CF or SM?

>Memory Access (Memory, Vibrating and LED Alarms) - $44.50

Another software on HS module? Free with Ipaq.

>dbNow Deluxe Module - $49.99

Alright, stop putting software on module. It's not only a rip-off, also extremely inconvenient to switch between different modules for different softwares.

>MyVox Voice Recorder - $69.95

Built-in in the PocketPC. PocketPC 2002 has built-in voice recoginition. It will be a built-in feature for new ipaq.

Now bluetooth? New Ipaq 38xx will have bluetooth built-in.

Beam between Palm and PocketPC? Try Peacepro! It works wonder.

Actually, if Palm OS has a better product, I would be posting in PocketPC forum, too. The point is to let peopole know what's out there.



RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 2:34:25 AM #
First of all, if you think you own this website, or this particular topic, you might just put your name and signature on it. Until then, you have no right to criticize what other people think about your pathetic product. And if you think others' opinion is annoying or evening too harsh, well, that's life. Present your fact, and we'll argue about it. You don't own anything but your words. So be intelligent with what you said.

Now let's look at your SpringBoard for less than $100,

>Handspring Modem Springboard - $39.99 at Amazon.com

CF Modem about the same price

>Handspring VisorPhone (cell phone) - $49.99 at http://www.handspring.com/products/visorphone/index.jhtml"

Nothing for PocketPC yet. But guess why HS is dumping VisorPhone for $0?

>Handspring
OmniRemote Universal Remote Control - $59.95

Universal Remote Software, ~$10

>StepKeeper Pedometer - $49.95

Is this a game? And they put it on a separate module? Is there any more intelligent way of making money? So lame...Don't even start comparing games on Palm and PocketPC...

>Merriam-Webster Dictionary - $49.95

Oxford Dictionary - $19

>Star Trek BookPak - $45.50
FlashPlus Compact Flash Module - $49.90 (plug standard CF cards into this one)
MemPlug CF Module - $49.95 (CF cards go in this one too)
MemPluc Smart Media Module - $49.95 (SM cards go in this one)

Why do you need all these adapter modules if your intention is to use CF or SM?

>Memory Access (Memory, Vibrating and LED Alarms) - $44.50

Another software on HS module? Free with Ipaq.

>dbNow Deluxe Module - $49.99

Alright, stop putting software on module. It's not only a rip-off, also extremely inconvenient to switch between different modules for different softwares.

>MyVox Voice Recorder - $69.95

Built-in in the PocketPC. PocketPC 2002 has built-in voice recoginition. It will be a built-in feature for new ipaq.

Now bluetooth? New Ipaq 38xx will have bluetooth built-in.

Beam between Palm and PocketPC? Try Peacepro! It works wonder.

Actually, if Palm OS has a better product, I would be posting in PocketPC forum, too. The point is to let peopole know what's out there.



RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 2:59:51 AM #
Sorry, accidently present the post key twice. My apology.

Springboards actually are useful
skoty @ 9/15/2001 3:01:36 AM #
Maybe you should provide a link to these new features you keep mentioning that are comming out with the new Ipaq and Pocket PC 2002. How about prices? Are they the same as a desktop? A car?

">StepKeeper Pedometer - $49.95
Is this a game?And they put it on a separate module? Is there any more intelligent way of making money? So lame..."

Actually, a pedometer counts your steps while you jog or walk. This module I believe comes with software to count your calories and such.

"OmniRemote Universal Remote Control - $59.95
Universal Remote Software, ~$10"

Yeah, I've seen this software. Have you read the reviews? It doesn't work with many brands of TV's. I haven't heard a complaint yet with OmniRemote. And, the springboard will go alot further than 3 feet. How far does that IR port go on your IPAQ? This again illustrates the versatility of a springboard.

"Why do you need all these adapter modules if your intention is to use CF or SM?"

The point is that you're not limited to what Microsoft or Compaq thinks you'll want or need. You can use whatever media you want.

"But guess why HS is dumping VisorPhone for $0?"

As if you knew. HS is "dumping" VisorPhone because Sprint PCS just came out with a new springboard phone that will implement the new 3G technology in 2002 and Handspring wants to get rid of it's "dated" inventory while it still can. Read and learn:

http://www.handspring.com/company/pr59.jhtml

"Now bluetooth? New Ipaq 38xx will have bluetooth built-in. "

I searched Google and found no relavent links for "Ipaq 38xx" Please provide me with the source of your knowledge.

"Beam between Palm and PocketPC? Try Peacepro! It works wonder."

It's a wonder that you have to use 3rd party software to get WindowsCE to follow the IrDA standard. Will 3rd party software also be necessary for your bluetooth IPAQ to talk to other bluetooth devices?

Is PocketPC 2002 comming with the same nifty feature that Windows XP is comming with? The one where you have to tell Microsoft everything about yourself and your computer before you can actually use it?

The only reason that I continue to respond to your praise of the PocketPC and your continual bashing of anything Palm is because this was an article about the new line of Handspring products, not PocketPC products. PocketPC is a Microsoft product and therefore uses more memory, processor power, battery power, and (essentially) money, to do the same thing that a PalmOS device does.

As I said in my previous post, there are many other springboards available. See for yourself:

http://www.handspring.com/products/sbm_all.jhtml

Aside from memory and modems, give us another example of how the IPAQ is infinately expandable...

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 4:29:57 AM #
This is exactly the point of this discussion: it shows how little you know about PocketPC and the innovative industry of PocketPC.

Yes. This is not about PocketPC. This is about how pathetic new HS models are. It doesn't even compare to old Palms.

By the way, when you have to use HS adapter to use industry-standard CF, you call yourself using whatever media? How ironic!

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
ahecht @ 9/15/2001 7:41:37 AM #
although i in no way support PPC, I do have to admit that PPC 2002 can beam to and recieve IR from Palm OS devices.

Stumpted?
skoty @ 9/15/2001 9:55:20 AM #
Well, I called you on your info, and you came back with petty gripes. Either your feaverishly looking for links to your facts or you really were bluffing your info.

"This is exactly the point of this discussion: it shows how little you know about PocketPC and the innovative industry of PocketPC."

Actually if anyone takes the time to read this whole thread, the fact that you didn't/can't respond to my call on your facts will be illustrated. The last line of my previous post asked you to give me an example of how infinately expandable the PocketPC is beyond the springboard. Where's my examples? Expanding Modems and memory is not infinatley expanding, it's buzzword jockying. The words "infinately expandable" sell products to Microsoft zombies/users. You asked for springboards under $100 and I gave you dozen.

"By the way, when you have to use HS adapter to use industry-standard CF, you call yourself using whatever media? How ironic! "

Since when is CF industry-standard? Because you or some magazine writer stamped it the "industry-standard"? How closed minded. This again illustrates what infinately expandable really means. It means you can use the same expansion slot, the springboard slot, with next year's industry standard Smart Media, or the year after that's new memory media that everyone like you will embrace as the "industry standard".

Right now IrDA is the "industry standard" for passing data between PDAs. If the press has their way, there'll be a big fight between IrDA and Bluetooth to see who's the next "industry standard." Since I own a Handspring, I don't care who wins. If Bluetooth becomes popular, I can just buy the new "industry-standard" springboard and continue using the PDA I've been using for over a year now.

So when PocketPC 2002 comes out with Bluetooth support, will they have some way to plug in a Bluetooth transceiver? Probably not. And if they do it'll probably be made by Microsoft and therefor only work with products made by Microsoft partners who can work with Microsoft's version of Bluetooth.

Looks like your going to have to fork out another $450 for your "superior" product when that happens.

This is a public forum, if your going to just be touting unbased facts about the oh-so-wonderful PocketPC do it in a PocketPC support group. If you think you can back it up here's a list of the questions/requests that remain unansered:

-Show me an example of how infinately expandable the IPAQ is beyond memory and modems.

-Show me where you read that the new PocketPC is going to support bluetooth.

-How much will this new IPAQ that supports Bluetooth cost?

-Will you have to buy a new one or will your old one truley expand?

If you post again with more feeble pokes at HS, and not backing up what you've said previously, the debate is over. Those reading this thread can come to their own conclusions about what the terms "infinatley expandable" and "industry standard" mean to them.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 1:20:36 PM #
Alright, I'll spend the time on doing the research for you. But I thought one should try to understand your oppponent first before you make an argument. At least I visit Palm websites for any update information. When was last time you read about PocketPC?

At least, I agree with your point. Let the fact speak for itself.


>-Show me an example of how infinately expandable the IPAQ is beyond memory and modems.

http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/pocketpc/bguide/features/expandable.asp?id=1


An extreme of this "infinte expandibiliy" is how you can use almosst every SCSI-devices with your Ipaq. CD-Rom, Zip, Jazz, CD-R/RW. All you need is a Adaptec PCMCIA SCSI card. How about 20GB of portable harddrive for Ipaq?

I used a Palm before, and I switched to PocketPC because of its expandability.

It's funny how you think HS is "infinitely expandable". If HS went out of business tomorrow, or a more likely scenario, quit Palm PDA market, all HS expansion modules would disappear or there would be no more NEW HS modules.

If MS went out of business (will they ever), all CF/PCMCIA products will still exist and innovation will still grow. Why? Because PCMCIA has been the industry-standard for so many years, and CF is fastly becoming the standard for personal electronics. Everyone from IBM to small electronic company in Taiwan makes CF/PCMCIA for laptop, for digital camera, for PDA, for MP3 player, etc. CF/PCMCIA both have industry groups where standards are formed and agreed among all.

If you think HS is infintely expandable, and you haven't realized CF/PCMCIA are industry-standards, I don't know what planet you're from.

>-Show me where you read that the new PocketPC is going to support bluetooth.

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31197

Bluetooth built in the new Ipaq running on PocketPC2002.


-How much will this new IPAQ that supports Bluetooth cost?

See above

-Will you have to buy a new one or will your old one truley expand?

No. Only because new one offers more RAM. With a PCMCIA sleeve, you can go to Frys' electronics, and pick up just about any PC peripherals, and most likely you'll find drivers that work for Ipaq.

Different directions
skoty @ 9/15/2001 2:40:17 PM #
Yeah, I followed your links. The first one took me to some corner of microsoft.com. Thanks to this link I can now say that your earlier comment:

>Besides, do you know how much CF ethernet/modem cost? >$40. Any more questions?

was false. There's no CF ethernet/modem PCMCIA expansion that costs $40. There's a modem with a Compact Flash slot (no card included) that is $40 after rebates. No ethernet expasion is $40.

>If HS went out of business tomorrow, or a more likely >scenario, quit Palm PDA market, all HS expansion >modules would disappear or there would be no more NEW >HS modules.

Fortunately, I think Microsoft is in greater danger of being broke up than Handspring is of going out of business. Keep in mind though, that Handspring doesn't make all of the springboards. They probably make less than 10% of them.

Your comparison of Handspring to Micorsoft is also really a comparison of apples to oranges. The real comparison should have been to Compaq which by the way is in the middle of a merger with HP. I guess your SOL if they drop the IPAQ and just continue the Jornada. Or at least out of $600 when you buy your next money pit. You'll have to because who's going to keep writing PCMCIA drivers for the IPAQ?

The second link you privided was even less useful. No mention of bluetooth being included in the IPAQ could be found. I did however find the price $600 and up.

Sadly, I think we are comparing product lines that are headed in different directions. Compaq's prices continue to go up while Hansprings prices are more and more affordable for us middle class folks. The already large Compaq can be expanded with sleeves that make it even thicker and bulky. Handsprings on the other had can be expanded with springboards that fit flush in the springboard slot not affecting size at all. A few exceptions are the phone and GPS modules.

It almost appears that the IPAQ really isn't intended to replace Palm devices. It's really intended to replace Laptops... sort of... The price would surly indicate that.

>An extreme of this "infinte expandibiliy" is how you >can use almosst every SCSI-devices with your Ipaq.

I saw no SCSI connector on the IPAQ. Is this yet another sleeve you're referring to? Boy I bet that's big. PDA users aren't even interested in connecting it to a harddrive (try fitting that one in your pocket!)

I guess the points I've been trying to make so far are:

-The reason Hansprings (and all PalmOS devices for that matter) don't require as much memory as PocketPCs is because they use an OS that runs much smaller, more efficient programs. There's no arguing this.

-PocketPC's cost more Handsprings cost less

-PocketPC's are much larger than any PalmOS device especially when "expanded"

-Upon further review, expandability in the IPAQ is comparable to Handspring if you don't mind bulk (after all it's really just a mini laptop)

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 4:42:28 PM #
HS cheap, ipaq expensive?

HS is not cheap, $200 to $300 should buy a good machine. Color ipaq, 3650, $290. B/W ipaq: $99 I won't tell you where to get it. You have to use more brain power to research and figure out what others are talking about.

HS small, ipaq big?

HS is not small. Read what others have mentioned in this forum. If I want something small, I would get Palm 500. Ipaq is not big if you don't use the sleeve. And if you wanna something small, look at the new Toshiba Genio running pocketpc2000, both CF/SD expansion, the same size as Handera. I don't know about you, anything smaller than that size is too small for power users. If I wanna something really small, I would have bought the creditsize PDA, which by the way, is out of business.

HS uses powerful, yet small softwares. Ipaq doesn't

Palm softwares are small, and more softwares are available. But most of them are small utility software or a software that's too small to be really powerful.

PocketPC softwares are generally larger in size. However, the size itself doesn't affect the quality.
I already mention its the memory space of hardware to hold real DATA space that really matters.


Pocket PC 2002 Issues Continue
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 4:52:42 PM #
I'm tired of all this Palm vs. Pocket PC arguments (to the extent that I'm posting here for the first time after reading this site for the last 6 months).

The reason I use Palm (and will continue to) is the stability and simplicity of the operating system for the average user.

Read this review of Pocket PC 2002:
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2811278,00.html

(I don't know how to fit it on one line.)

George

Misleading again
skoty @ 9/15/2001 5:09:43 PM #
>HS is not cheap, $200 to $300 should buy a good machine. Color ipaq, 3650, $290. B/W ipaq: $99

Again you're comparing apples to oranges... These are the MSRPs of brand new products compared to your "back market" prices on older products. You're not going to get your Bluetooth enabled IPAQ that's supposedly comming out (per your own post only) for less than $600. Unless, of course, you're an employee of MicroSoft, which would explain why your so adimate about their crap.

>I won't tell you where to get it.

Why did you even post it then? Is this message board a game to you? Postings should be informative not "I can get if for this price and you can't"

>HS is not small. Read what others have mentioned in this forum.

They were comparing it to other Palm devices, you're comparing it to an IPAQ. Here's the real dimensions:

Neo and Pro: 4.8" x 3.0" x 0.7"
Ipaq H3600 series: 5.11" x 3.28" x 0.62"

The Ipaq looks bigger to me. I can barely fit my Platinum (same as Neo) in my pocket. The IPAQ is a quarter inch wider and taller. Not a chance that's fitting into my pocket. Especially not with a sleeve on there. I can put any number of springboards into my Platinum and it still fits in my pocket. Yes sir, the Handspring is smaller.

>However, the size itself doesn't affect the quality.

It does affect the quantity though. This is why you have chosen to drop more money into CF.

>I already mention its the memory space of hardware to hold real DATA space that really matters.

You got one of them USB hard drives in your backpack for your "real DATA"? Again, the only difference between that and a laptop is about $100-$200.



RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 6:22:00 PM #
True. The stability and simplicity and availability of special software (medical application) are the strength of Palm devices. If would ever switch back to Palm, that would be why.

This also proves the argument simple Palm users don't need expensive or cheap software HS modules.

This further proves the argument simple Palm PDA should never cost $150, new or used.

So does HS have a shot in the low-end PDA market? I don't think so.


>HS is not cheap, $200 to $300 should buy a good machine. Color ipaq, 3650, $290. B/W ipaq: $99

Again you're comparing apples to oranges... These are the MSRPs of brand new products compared to your "back market" prices on older products. You're not going to get your Bluetooth enabled IPAQ that's supposedly comming out (per your own post only) for less than $600. Unless, of course, you're an employee of MicroSoft, which would explain why your so adimate about their crap.

>They're not black market price. They are advertised on the internet from legitimate stores.


>I won't tell you where to get it.

Why did you even post it then? Is this message board a game to you? Postings should be informative not "I can get if for this price and you can't"

> No, I'm not an employee of MS. I don't even like Window 98. But I don't want to tell you too much because you need get out there do some research before you get so stuck in your HS modules.


>HS is not small. Read what others have mentioned in this forum.

They were comparing it to other Palm devices, you're comparing it to an IPAQ. Here's the real dimensions:

Neo and Pro: 4.8" x 3.0" x 0.7"
Ipaq H3600 series: 5.11" x 3.28" x 0.62"

The Ipaq looks bigger to me. I can barely fit my Platinum (same as Neo) in my pocket. The IPAQ is a quarter inch wider and taller. Not a chance that's fitting into my pocket. Especially not with a sleeve on there. I can put any number of springboards into my Platinum and it still fits in my pocket. Yes sir, the Handspring is smaller.

>I didn't compare HS to Ipaq. I just said HS is not small. Its form factor is in the middle of nowhere. Besides, PocketPC is getting smaller and smaller. Toshiba geni at the Handera size is perfect. I personally don't want to get anything smaller than that.

>However, the size itself doesn't affect the quality.

It does affect the quantity though. This is why you have chosen to drop more money into CF.

>Drop more money in CF? I don't know what you're talking about here. Storing 128MB of MP3 would cost you $188 on SD. On HS memory module, not even possible. Storing 256MB of MP3 on CF cost about $100.

I don't know if you have problem understanding the issue here or not. The real data files (word files, excel sheets, ebook, jpeg images, movie clips, etc have similar files size regardless the OS. So whoever makes device that uses cheapest, most widely-used memory option has better PDA in terms of storage option.

>I already mention its the memory space of hardware to hold real DATA space that really matters.

You got one of them USB hard drives in your backpack for your "real DATA"?

>No, just a small 256MB of CF for about $100.

Again, the only difference between that and a laptop is about $100-$200.

>Yes, Ipaq is a good alternative to laptop. Except a decent laptop costs at least $1000. And you can't never carry a laptop with you everywhere you go (including reading ebook in the restroom;-)


By the way, since you're so hard-core HS users, tell us what you've been able to do HS that makes you so proud.


RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
skoty @ 9/15/2001 8:21:51 PM #
I think we've already been through why I think PalmOS devices, Handsprings in particular, are as good if not better than WindowsCE devices.

I'm not trying to be proud or arragant. This whole thing started when I corrected some of your far fetched ideas about how bad Handspring was and how much springboards cost. Ever since then I've been responding to your questions and checking your facts. It isn't right to badmouth a product with false evidence.

I'm done.

RE: Same old crap, new bucket.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 8:55:06 PM #
Pointing out facts is not "badmouthing" a product. If you're in love with your HS regardless other better (in my opinion) products out there, say it. It's your individual choice. I have no business to tell you what you should use. But I have reason to tell you my opinion why new HS models suck. That's not "badmouth" a product.

And I'm done, too.

Already on Sale at Fry's Electronics - yesterday 9/12/01

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:29:29 PM #
I saw both new models already on the shelves for sale at Fry's Electronics last night (here in Phoenix, AZ). The Neo models have new clear cases in Red, Blue & smoke Black. The new Pro model looks like the Platnium model. Both models stated a 33 MHz processor.

Fry's also had an interesting Linux PDA out for sale - I think it was called the Advantage, for $249. I tried it out for about 30 mins and was not really impressed with the basic applications, buut the included games, especially the Space Invader clone game was impressive graphics wise. I didn't detect any sound on the device, although there was a neat feature on it - it had large, long buttons on both sides - they resembled paddles.

- Dave A.

RE: Already on Sale at Fry's Electronics - yesterday 9/12/01
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 5:36:11 AM #
Yep i saw it too, i went today, and it was in the corner was surprised, didn't know wtf it was, and i was wondering why it wasn't posted here in PIC.

Anyways, $300 for 16 megs? it's a rip off for a visor.
They had the PRo and NEO stacked on top of each other. and it's in a white box.
(nxt)

RE: Already on Sale at Fry's Electronics - yesterday 9/12/01
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 5:38:01 AM #
Just to be clear again, the Pro is 16megs built in of RAM. for $299 at Fry's Electronics, It's there now. (nXt)

Difference between Neo and Platinum

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:53:54 PM #
Other than colors, what differences are there?

Lower End
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 10:56:19 PM #
Handspring must want to own the lower market or something. Don't they have enough monochrome handhelds out? They need small, color, and good looking devices. If not, the company will slowly die...

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
Ed @ 9/13/2001 11:01:48 PM #
The Pro has 16 MB of RAM, as opposed to the Platinum's 8 MB. They have added the Fast Lookup feature. The Platinum is $100 cheaper while supplies last.

---
News Editor
RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 11:04:51 PM #
ram - 8 megs or 16

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2001 11:49:10 PM #
Ummm why would I pay $300 for a PDA with 16 megs of ram when I could spend $200 on the Sony Clie 320 and then spend another $50 to $60 and get a 32 meg MS for it. Am I missing something here guys? Is there any real advantage this Visor would have for the extra cash? Seems like a waste of money to me.

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 12:19:03 AM #
The Visor Pro has more "real" memory. You can't really run anything of a memory stick, or CF Card or SD.



RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
fuzzy @ 9/14/2001 12:37:27 AM #
i hates anonymous people. you can run most apps from a card, and even if you couldn't, you could store them there then move them to the pilot to execute them. an 8meg w/ a card is in many cases better than a 16meg. and i defenatly wouldn't take a 16meg w/o expansion. if you gave me one i would turn around and sell it to some one who doesn't know how a palm works so that i could buy a decent one.

thx,
fuzz
One more time NEO and PLATINUM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 1:46:08 PM #
Once again, I'll ask the question, what's the difference between the NEO (NOT PRO) and Platinum other than color?

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:09:42 PM #
Not a lot. Notice thay will both sell for the same: $200. That's why the Platinum is getting killed off.

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 7:01:14 PM #
The Marketing at HS must be on drugs.

The Neo & Platinum has no diff other than color.

Neo
Price : US$ 200
CPU: 33MHz
Mem: 8MB

And Platinum has the same specs.

So why would they kill platinum and introduce neo?? All of that's marketing idiot really need to take marketing 101.

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 7:24:40 PM #
i would take the pro neo over the s320 anyday. The smaller screen sucks for current pda users.

RE: Difference between Neo and Platinum
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 8:13:16 AM #
Oh,yeh? Just go to buy a HS "NEW" PDAs and be a handspring saver...

Handspring's doing what it does best.....

Davy @ 9/14/2001 12:25:18 AM #
Unfotunatley, it does grayscale handheld's best. These products would've been really cool last year, but now, with 16-bit Color, mp3 playing, SD/Memory Stick Compatible Palms, these really become dated. Handspring needs to innovate, and this is not innovation.

RE: Handspring's doing what it does best.....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:37:33 PM #
and who makes buggywhips the best?

Pro& Neo

EJSHUMAK @ 9/14/2001 12:42:01 AM #
Too little --allmost toolate--

To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 7:53:32 AM #
I would imagine this would come from Handspring...

"I could be good, and i would - If I knew I was understood
And it'll be great, just wait, or is it too little too late"

Too Little Too Late
Maroon

You get the idea. When will Handspring realise that people now go for high-res colour Palms, or at least that's what I would go for. Sure they could have a couple of cheap to not-so-cheap, greyscale Palms, but they should include that other customer that wants more for less, i.e. me.

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:40:42 AM #
I think its time to point out again that the readers of this and other palm fan sites are not avarage users. We're the people who will pay hundreds for a color handheld. Most people aren't like that.

This shows that plam sales are 85% b&w, 15% color.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2296

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:56:08 AM #
Exactly who are the people who pay $300 for a black and white handheld, anyway?

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:35:28 AM #
Businesses

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:24:33 AM #
OK quick survey of the Palm users I know as friends. 7 users...
1 palmgeek (me)
2 techy sauve users
4 normal folk

2 have color the other 5 are happy with their B&W and dont care about color, the others friends that are thinking of getting Palms dont care for color either because of cost.

Conclusion: Everyone on this list is a Palmgeek and cant relate to normal Palm users which consist of probably 99% of the general market share. Geeks geeks geeks!

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:42:55 AM #
As to the questions - who are the people that pay $300 for a b&w palm os pda, I just payed $350 for the handera 330 (I'm not a business) and I'm VERY happy with it. Many people who use their PDA as a tool and not as a toy are very happy with grey scale.

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:23:59 PM #
This was the same argument people used to defend the IBM XT (sometime around 1986). How many monochrome PCs do you see these days?

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:29:15 PM #
when a very good color screen is inexpensive enough for the average joe to buy a $150 handheld with color, then grayscale will die out.
if you want to make IBM comparisons, you should probably keep in mind that color monitors didn't take off until people could afford them. when palm releases a handheld for less than $200 with a high-quality color screen, that's when most of the market will be willing to pay for color. do you have an inexpensive, high-quality color screen? if so, i'd suggest you tell palm. if not, stop assuming everybody is willing (and able) to pay $400+ for a color handheld.

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
TheClone @ 9/14/2001 7:14:27 PM #
"We're the people who will pay hundreds for a color handheld."

No we're not, at least not all of us. Just because we are techies, doesn't mean we all have to have the latest gadget. My Palm Vx does exactly what I desire, organize my contacts, appointments, etc. I'm not willing to pay hundreds for a color palm. Beyond the 'cool' factor, watching movies and playing games on a palm isn't that enjoyable anyway.

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:05:23 PM #
Come on! You can't tell me that Handspring can't make money on a $300 color handheld! Maybe they won't make the 50% profit they're probably making on the B&W job, but at least they would sell!

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:47:24 PM #
I agree with the above and I would add another stat: 99% of the really useful apps work just as well in monochrome as they do in colour.

To quote another Barenaked Ladies song....
Davy @ 9/14/2001 9:01:04 PM #
To quote another Barenaked Ladies Song:

"I'm the kind of guy who laughs at a funeral,
can't understand it, and I don't think I soon will"

When Handspring goes out of business (if it continues to produce monochrome look-alikes), this is the song I'll listen to, not understanding their business plans.

That's BS. Most people want COLOR.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 8:08:30 AM #
..

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 8:22:30 AM #
> That's BS. Most people want COLOR. <

Thats right but what people want more is a PDA thats less than $200. If its color, fine. If not, they aren't going to pay $200 more to get it. Color is the future but not until it gets cheap.

Its like flat panel monitors. Most people would like one but they still buy a CRT because it costs half as much.

RE: To quote the Barenaked Ladies song....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 11:33:30 AM #
>what people want more is a PDA thats less than $200.

The point is, $300 is a lot to pay for a B&W handheld. Nobody expects a color PDA at the $200 price point -- at least not yet. If Handspring can't make a $300 device with something better than a 160x160 greyscale display, you gotta wonder if they're interested in staying in the game (let alone winning).

The end of Handspring

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:42:31 AM #
That only prove one thing, Handspring doesn't have the ability to create and design any new innovative products anymore, they are just running out of their ideas. The world needs COLOR PDAs, not gray-scale one.

Couldn't agree more
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:56:47 AM #
When sony is dishing out 320X320 color palms, why would someone buy this crap! If they want cheap stuff try Palm m125. The classical "stuck-in-the-middle" case, and it is too far down the middle no one is going buy that crap.

RE: The end of Handspring
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 12:03:07 PM #
End of handspring may be right, but not end of grayscale.
read this http://www.infosync.no/en/news/articles/n/18.shtml
"....Most people reading this web site are power users, and that means they are interested in video, GPS maps, and so on. And of course, almost everyone likes eyecandy. But (much to our dismay), only a tiny fraction of the PDA market reads infoSync or other gadget news sites. The vast majority of PDAs in use today run the Palm OS. (Whether you are now cheering or booing, it is a fact.) And the vast majority of Palm users, over 80%, never install a 3rd party application. They use their device as an organizer. And an address book doesn't need 16-bit color..."



RE: The end of Handspring
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 7:30:23 PM #
agreed, for average joe this could be a great product.
Most people that enter the market start out with a 8 meg unit. Some stick with it and others become addicted to it pdas. Those that want to move up from a Neo just might make the jump to the pro. Two reasons they are comfortable with HS knowing the quality of the Neo and what is does for them. So they jump to the Pro for more memory and rechargable.I think this will be a great middle of the road pda . To many low end devices( M100, HS dlx,sony 320).
The other thing is alot of people look at cost. There is alot around the 100-200 range. Now there will be the M-125( someday) HS pro, Edge all around 200-350.If you want High end go for the M500 series.

RE: The end of Handspring
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 1:01:36 AM #
I am just very curious... All of the naysayers who say that Handspring is "about to go out of business" Do you all own your own multi-million dollar, international corporation? Or do you work at "Circle K" or "Best Buy" as a stock boy?
The guys at Handspring have created a fantastic product that is 10 times as expandable as it's nearest competitor. Maybe they know something you don't...
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Sony Clie series, and most Palms, but Handsprings expansion options will keep them around for a long time.
Doug

RE: The end of Handspring
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 2:03:24 PM #
It doesn't take a CEO to figure out a company can't operate at a sustained loss AND do nothing to improve their position in the market. Clearly, Handspring is floundering and have been for a while, as they have told analysts and shown by cutting prices, giving away hardware, etc. This situation would lead one to believe they would do something to ignite their sales -- maybe even something to get long-time Visor owners to upgrade. They haven't and it makes us lot of us wonder how much longer they can last.


I can't remember their specs...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:50:17 AM #
Are these the rumored Ace and Columbia models we heard about a while back (assuming, then, that those really were working code names)?

No promotion

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 8:57:40 AM #
I think these things are going to be announced with little or no promotion because they are Dead on Arrival. These things are even more duds than the Visor Edge models. There is definitely a low-end market for near $100 Palm OS devices. There definitely is a high-end market for small color Palm OS devices with memory expansion.

I'm not sure if there really is that much of a mid-range market for a non-color handheld that is the standard size.

Neo can't beat Clie S320

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:01:23 AM #
Under the same price,
S320 has OS 4.0, Neo has OS 3.5.
S320 has flash ROM, Neo doesn't.
S320 has expansion card, Neo doesn't.

Those 3 comparisons are enough to bring down HandSpring.

Hey what is HandSpring doing? It is September 2001 now! Why release new model with all old spec??

umm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 10:16:10 AM #
yeah, both of them have expansion.
springboard.
please stop puffing the magic dragon.

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
Token @ 9/14/2001 10:18:40 AM #
What features of OS 4.0S does the S320 use that wasn't already in the OS 3.5.2H version??

High colour? Nope.
Better MemStick stick? HS doesn't need it.
Better apps? Nope.
Better jog wheel support? Nope.
WCA 2.0 Support? Nope - HS has Blazer instead.

Does the S320 do MP3? Nope.
Is there an addon module that does MP3 for the S320. Nope.
Do I really want to play MP3s on my HS? Nope (YVMV).
Can I get a CPDP modem for the S320? Nope.
Does my current investment in Springboard modules, EB case and PPK work with the new HS models - thank God yes ... finally someone that has backward compatability.

Will I buy the new HS? Nope - but I would recommend it over the Sony. Personally I am waiting for the Treo range to hit the shelves (October?).

Token.

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:00:05 AM #
OS4 is faster than 3.5x and OS4 supprots VFS directly

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:02:57 AM #
Token,

"Does the S320 do MP3? Nope.
Is there an addon module that does MP3 for the S320. Nope."
WRONG--did you read Ed's post on the front page?

"Do I really want to play MP3s on my HS? Nope (YVMV)."
Why bother pointing out a feature that you wouldn't use anyway?

"Can I get a CPDP modem for the S320? Nope."
First of all, it's CDPD (cellular digital packet data), and yes the S320 has one. AGain, I point to Ed's earlier post. Click on News Archives and you'll see a story on MYLO wireless service.

"Will I buy the new HS? Nope - but I would recommend it over the Sony. Personally I am waiting for the Treo range to hit the shelves (October?)."

You obviously have a personal investment in your HS, and that's fine, but don't pretend you've done the homework when you clearly have not!

Token.


RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
rldunn @ 9/14/2001 11:07:42 AM #
Actually, OS4.0S did have better jog dial support, and if you read the articles on PIC, you'd know that the 320 now can play MP3s, through the just announced adapter which doesn't increase it's size.

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
fuzzy @ 9/14/2001 11:21:45 AM #
didn't i just see an addon so the s320 can play mp3?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2340&MODE=FLAT

thx,
fuzz

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 1:25:36 PM #
Having recently replaced my Visor Deluxe with a Clie N610 I have to say that I like the 610 better because of it size and color.

I don't carry lots of data, yet.
I am not interested in MP3 playback.

I originally got the visor because the springboard technology looked promising (something no other palm solution seemed to have). Unfortunately, IMHO new modules were few and far between and those that had the best funtionality cost way more than I was willing to invest in. I also found that sometimes the visor was just a little bit too big to take everywhere.

Having had the Clie for a little more than a month I have the following comments:

I do take it everywhere. Much easier to carry around in a pants pocket (even jeans)than my visor.

Love having color

Love the jog dial. (used to own a cassiopiea e-11 and missed the functionality)

I was really nervous about moving from one proprietary storage solution (springboard) to another (Memory Stick). But not so much anymore.

I am getting used to the MS. I especially like the fact that I can use MS Import and MS Export to transport information between home and office via a memory stick. For those who don't know about this, the software treats your memory stick like a removable drive on a PC. This was indeed a bonus that I have come to enjoy.

I have just started running things directly off the MS and find it promising. But have not pushed it to its limits. I do use Back up Buddy to back up directly onto the memory stick which gives me peace of mind.

To sum up, I think I moved to the right solution for me which in the end is what we all want.

I would liket to pose a question:
Is Handspring really stopped being innovative or are they just biding their time and trying to keep folks interested until they come out with the PDA phones we got a peek at a couple of weeks ago. Those look innovative?



RE: Can we stop grilling?
tritan @ 9/14/2001 7:40:33 PM #
Think about it folks, HS is updating the lower end before coming out with there high end. They know the lower end units just released aren't for everybody.That is why they are lower end. We have already heard about another color unit and and a pair of wireless units.This release is just an update for the out dated lower end. The average joe coming in the store looking for a dlx because his friend told him it was the best will now buy a neo instead. This is nothing to get all pissed about. They are just starting the updates from the bottom and working up.
Relax Sony loversssssss!!!!

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:59:03 PM #
Relax HaNdSPriNg loversssssssssssssssSSSSSSSSS !

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 10:28:10 PM #
I also just (yesterday) switched from the Edge to the Clie 610.

I purchased the Edge when it was $399, before the price drop. I wasn't too thrilled to find the PDA I had just bought (about 45 days earlier) was now available for $100 less.

But I also just kind of decided, if I was going to live with my purchase for a couple of years, at least, I really wanted color. And the 610, for the exact same money as what I paid for the Edge, gave me not only a beautiful color screen (it really blows me away) but OS 4.0 and expandable memory, up to 128 megs.

It IS slightly larger then the Edge. I LOVED the Edge's form factor. But comparing one to the other, I believe most people, myself included, would give a strong advantage to the Sony Clie.

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
ahecht @ 9/15/2001 7:47:05 AM #
That mp3 add-on is only for the N series, not the S series, so, not, you can't play mp3s on your s320.

RE: Neo can't beat Clie S320
Ed @ 9/15/2001 10:15:22 AM #
> That mp3 add-on is only for the N series, not the S series, so, not, you can't play mp3s on your s320.

I'm sorry, ahecht, but that's incorrect. The Sony Audio Adapter does work with the S series.

---
News Editor

Same song & dance!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:28:08 AM #
I'm really suprised Mr. Hawkins & Co. are this stagnant to release ANOTHER overpriced monochrome device.
I guess they still didn't learn their lesson with the Visor Edge. I guess when these 2 new devices go down the toilet maybe they will finally learn. I guess Sony and Handera are the only 2 innovative Palm OS manufacturer's left.

RE: Same song & dance!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:30:19 PM #
Totally agree. Except Sony as a company is too diversfied, and handera is too small to make a major impact in PDA market.

The result, PocketPC 2002 will rule.

It's almost amazing if one tries to compare PocketPC innovation to that of Palm.

Good luck, Handspring!

RE: Same song & dance!
Smaug @ 9/15/2001 2:41:49 AM #
What pocketpc innovations?

RE: Same song & dance!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/16/2001 10:10:10 AM #
what Palm innovation? vibrating alarm?

RE: Same song & dance!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/16/2001 10:34:46 AM #
> What pocketpc innovations?

PPC has this new system that lets you input text by writing
on the screen in a simplified version of the alphabet.
Also, you can now list your contacts in the address book by
company name. There's some other new stuff but that's the
major "innovations".

RE: Same song & dance!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2001 7:52:42 AM #
"PPC has this new system that lets you input text by writing on the screen in a simplified version of the alphabet."

Is that not Grafitti?!

Newton song & dance!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2001 8:16:39 AM #
>Is that not Grafitti?!

No - Microsoft uses the unique and excellent Newton System Codename ROSETTA - it is by far the best handwriting recognition program ever developed by man. Dont ask me how MS got it.

A truly sad Newton MP2100 user

RE: Same song & dance!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2001 8:52:22 AM #
If it really is the Newton ROSETTA, it wouldn't be a "simplified" alphabet.

Newton 130/Palm VxLE/Palm m505 owner

Handheld Computing Mag has articles up

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 10:22:56 AM #
Handheld Computing Magazine (www.hhcmag.com) has a PDF article from their new Buyer's Guide magazine posted on their web site. This includes reviews of the new Visors, including pictures.

NEo is TOO big.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 10:43:18 AM #
compare this to the New Genio, it is half the size, has color built in SD/CFII, and strong arm.

http://www.wiredguy.com/wired/exclusive/video/09.12.2001/index.html

RE: NEo is TOO big.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 1:21:42 PM #
Are you serious? Both the Jornada and Genio looked almost as thick as a brick to me. They have the right length and width, but they look waaaay to thick.

RE: NEo is TOO big.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 11:08:10 AM #
The new Jornada is no thicker than the old one, according to its specs. And the old Jornada is, in hand, no thicker than the Visor. I know--I've owned both a Visor and a Jornada. So just because it LOOKS thicker to you probably has more to do with your status as a Handspring Apologist than anything else...

RE: NEo is TOO big.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/16/2001 11:43:37 PM #
if any PPC manufacturer can come out with a device that has the m505 form factor, they will have a winner.

too little.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 10:54:02 AM #
The lower end might be a hot sell if it has MP3 player and goes for $200. I mean why not? some mp3 player goes for $40-70 bucks, surely integrating on would not cost as much as $10.

These "new" products are insults to the Palm community.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 1:54:08 PM #
What a joke. Where the hell is all their R&D money going???? Dubinksy's lunches????????

get a Pocket PC

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:13:15 PM #
..


RE: get a Pocket PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 3:04:59 PM #
Nice to see the trolls have voted.

Don't confuse trolling with harsh reality.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 6:23:25 PM #
.

RE: Harsh reality
Lucky @ 9/14/2001 6:36:15 PM #
No danger of any confusion here... the harsh reality is that to-date, Pocket PC hasn't been quite the unqualified success that Microsoft would have everyone believe. They haven't been able to get more than 20% of the handheld market so far--even less if you look at installed base--and Sony is just getting started.

RE: get a Pocket PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:29:34 PM #
Uh..Lucky, your missing the big picture here. PPC has 20% of the US market, and it has been steadily growing. It may well be at 30% within 2-3 months. And your completely ignoring the fact that PocketPC now has 50% of the European PDA market. And you still think that PPC's success is exagerated? Seems like just the beginning to me.

RE: get a Pocket PC
Smaug @ 9/15/2001 2:43:55 AM #
The only reason the pocketpc is doing so well in that market is palm is all but ignoring it.

RE: get a Pocket PC
rigter @ 9/15/2001 3:57:27 PM #
True!

I'm in the Netherlands and over here you can't get the new Sony machines. No HandEra either. I've never seen a Visor in a shop but you can get them mail order.

In a shop your typical choice would be a Palm or a ppc.
With the m505 and the iPaq costing about the same, the ppc's are becoming very popular very quickly.

I am thinking of buying an iPaq myself

Get a Pocket PC - Bill needs your money.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/16/2001 3:17:35 PM #
"It's not popular in the US, but it's REALLY popular in europe!"

What computer products have I heard this claim for?
-Sinclair (ZX-81/TS-1000)
-Atari (ST/TT/Mega/Falcon030)
-Commodore (Amiga)

All the zealots like to say it. Too bad about PPC. It was fun watching people play jerky movie clips from 'The matrix' and pretend that it was something usefull. I'm still chuckling occasionally over the last PPC guy I talked to.

He: "...I diden't get a palm because I like to play MP3's."
Me: "When's the last time you listened to one?"
He: "A few months ago, I think. I really don't have time to listen to music."
Me: "Do you have any loaded now?"
He: "...No - I deleted the one I had in there because I needed the room..."
Me: "What programs do you use the most?"
He: "The datebook, the address thing, I have an E-Book I'm reading too. I like some of the games."


RE: get a Pocket PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/16/2001 5:51:09 PM #
-when is the last time anybody use the SD port? (oh never)

-it's fun watching Palm user trying to find file on flat tree directory structure can calling it easy. (scrolling up and down like crazy, cause it has obscure name in the middle of 70 similarly named file)

-it's fun watching spreadsheet on crude 160-160 ugly screen. (all in the name of simplicity)

-it's fun watching Palm user yapping about how cool the future 5.0 with bluetooth will be, while doing wireless data streaming with Wi-Fi. (maybe even record the yapp and broadcast it over the company's LAN.

-it's fun knowing somebody paying $450 for PIM gadget and pretending it is the best buy in the world.

RE: get a Pocket PC
Davy @ 9/16/2001 7:11:32 PM #
This is palminfocenter.com. There are no news articles here concerning pocket pc's, so why are you here? It's like an illeterate person going to a library, there's no reason to be there.

RE: get a Pocket PC
skoty @ 9/16/2001 8:10:01 PM #
It's no use Davy. He's the villiage idiot. He's going to continue to be a salesman for Microsoft.

together is better

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:19:11 PM #
I think palm and Visor should work together - together is better

RE: together is better
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:36:02 PM #
zero plus zero still equals zero

RE: together is better
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:55:16 PM #
Nope, minus one plus zero will be minus one

Nail in the coffin.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 2:26:45 PM #
I was hopeful when I read that Handspring's Edge wasn't selling and they admitted the public wanted color. Now I'm floored that Handspring would re-badge the same wares they've been peddling for nearly two years. You'd think after getting a good ass-kicking in the market, they'd try to generate some excitement, but instead they blame the "Global Economic Downturn (tm)". I wonder how much money was wasted on "development" of these "new" products. Another company trounced by Microsoft (who never rests).

Who is the customer?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 9:03:36 PM #
I can't believe how lame these devices are. Who is the customer? If its the low end organizer market well they are not going to pay a premium for an expandable device especially when all the expansion options are very expensive. Its not the business market, they want high res screens and the kind of expandability the Pocket PC offers. Then there is the flash rom and no way to upgrade to 4.0 The only thing I can think of is that handspring is desperate and can't come up with anything else. This is just pathetic.

RE: Who is the customer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:26:16 PM #
This is why PocketPC will become more and more popular.

New Visors

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:04:56 PM #
They still look like bricks............. and I thought Palm was bad, at least they have kept the same form factor of the Vx series in the m505, and m525.

Ban the Microserf

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2001 11:46:03 PM #
I see a lot of messages here from what sounds like the same person posting over and over again that all the Palm companies are doomed and M$ will crush them. I've heard a rumor that Microsoft is paying people to go to Palm sites and post stuff to spread FUD and I'm starting to believe it.

Why are you wasting all our time talking about the PPC on a palm site. We're not blind. Most people here have looked at the PPC before and rejected it for one reason or another. Posting your little comments isn't doing anything besides being a pest. No one is listening to you. There are PPC sites, too. At least a few. Go talk to people who are interested in what you have to say.

RE: Ban the Microserf
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 12:23:00 AM #
Amen

RE: Ban the Microserf
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 12:32:50 AM #
This is what happend to a dying beast!

RE: Ban the Microserf
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 1:48:53 AM #
I agree. I like info/news about the PocketPC as much as other geeks (I even have one), BUT I visit PPC and general PDA sites for that. When I visit Palm Infocenter, I'm more interested in Palm OS stuff. Seeing a bunch of "PPC is better" type comments here is just annoying.

RE: Ban the Microserf
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 2:15:53 AM #
well, I have had IIIx (sold on ebay with handsome premium), Vx (my wife took it and broke it in a month), ipaq, and m505 (using both currently) and should be able to say something without being clasified as "PPC group"...

To be honestly, these 2 HS are still lack of "Wow" factor. The same old casting, which was not so appealling even months ago. So-so improvement make them hardly qualified as "new" products. Mono screen, well.....

..enough said, those who want them will buy them, and those who don't wlll find millions of reasons to trash them. Good luck HS on next product!

WHAT A JOKE !!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 3:54:04 AM #
The only upgrade from (Visor Deluxe --> Neo) is (OS3.1--> OS3.5) ??? And how long did it take them? 1.5 years?

LOSER~~ Why bother to release this model?

New Visors & other stuff

2sheds @ 9/15/2001 4:56:02 AM #
As already noted, there are quite a few "power PDA users", not more than 5%. And I would suggest that many of them are regular readers/posters of PIC,PalmStation,VisorCentral etc forums. If somebody is in doubt, think about it: if all those millions of people who use PalmOS handhelds would come here traffic would be just to high for server to operate (this is only my suggestion, but I'm quite sure about it). Thus what you can read at PIC forums are opinions of (being very optimistic) 1-3% Palm/Sony/Visor/Handera users.
Do you really think that average user would need all those bells'n'whistles of Sony N610/N710, Handera 330, Palm m505? No, he/she is quite happy with his/her m100/m105, Visor Deluxe (or even Solo) and would never buy an organizer for $400-500. Here in Russia you have to add some $100-150 (in Europe - $50 or so) to those prices, making high-end PDAs expensive toys for well-paid geeks or top-managers.
Being an editor of Russian PDA-related site & magazine I played with all those models and although I liked features of N710 and Handera 330 I still use my ol' faithful VisorDx and find it reliable and cost-effective. Probably I wouldn't change it for any of new Visors cuz I see no real difference, but still I would recommend Neo to everybody who needs an entry-level PDA (m100/m105/m125 are not comfortable when you need to read a lot) and Pro, as its name implies, is just ok for professionals like doctors,managers,journalists etc, who need superb expandability (photo,storage,WiFi,modems,cell/radio phones etc) and memory. BTW, did you notice that Handera 330 is also B/W? And pro users who want long battery life and don't play games too much (gaming on handera still sucks though situation is improving) buy it though B/W is not as _kewl_ as color.
P.S. PPC sucks completely (I know what I say, I played with Cassiopeia, iPaq and other models for quite a while).
1) Larger executables - they never learned to optimize code so progs for Windoze always need more space than similar progs for any other OS
2) Higher requirements - this is also the same for all M$ products - Microsoft recommends (read it as "requires") ARM CPUs for PPC2002 while PalmOS runs quite happily on 16MHz Motorollas
3) Brick-sized casing - iPaq would never fit any of my pockets while I can always put PalmOS PDA in my jeans.
4) Short battery life - imagine a long flight or long day at work - those babes are plain energy-suckers
5) High pricing - iPaq 3630 = $500 and iPaq 3660 = $700 - pretty cool, huh? Sure, there are B/W iPaq and lo-color HP but who need this **** anyway? I would rather buy full-featured Palm than cut-down PPC. To prove my words, those cheapo's are not sold in Russia anyway.
6) M$ just sucks - I understand people using desktop Windoze because it kinda 'industry standard' or something, but why would one buy PDA running PPC if he's got a better choice? I only see one reason - "It's expensive thus it's cool thus my friends/coworkers/partners would be jealous". Oh, here is one more reason - this person is dumb.

RE: New Visors & other stuff
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 10:36:04 PM #
do you know that my Walmart paper pad only cost 99cents and functions exactly as PALM too? it fit on my Levis 505 front pocket, try that with m505.



RE: New Visors & other stuff
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2001 9:11:41 AM #
I don't know how tight your jeans are, but my m505 fits fine in any pocket.

Good point about the pad :)

Will these really make a difference?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 11:13:00 AM #
Keep in mind that the people who post on this site only represent MAYBE 5% of PDA users. That said, most of us notice a difference between 16mhz and 33mhz, are more likely to purchase a Springboard module, and look to explore the capabilities of expansion.

Does the average PDA user care? Sure, millions of purchase Visors because the salesperson at CompUSA extolled the virtues of Springboard--how many have actually PURCHASED and USED their Springboard slot? My guess is that there are a lot of unused Springboard modules, and there are even more unused Springboard slots.

What the average PDA user will consider using, IMHO, is a SIMPLE, USEABLE standard for a little extra memory, and perhaps some other functions. Why would someone buy one module to use another memory module (SB to CF adapter) when they can get something with CF built-in? I believe most people wouldn't. As for other modules--digital camera, etc.--why would I drop money on a POS camera like the EyeModule (face it--it's only positives are coolnes and convenience, NOT performance) when I can get a better REAL camera for a few dollars more? The average buyer, IMHO, finds the wide variety of expandability options to be too much of a hassle. Shoot, I think they're a hassle, and I understand them!

These PDAs are all DOA in the "real" customer market. The reality is that the average person is most likely to get an m100.

RE: Will these really make a difference?
skoty @ 9/15/2001 11:40:24 AM #
At the same time people never want to be closed in. Although many people own a Handspring and have never used the springboard slot, the expandability was the selling point that made them opt to pay $30 more for the Visor.

I'm a perfect example of this. I knew very little about PDAs when I bought my first one. I was trying to decide first of all between a WindowsCE and a PalmOS machine. That was pretty easy since I try to support Microsoft as little as possible. Then I had to pick a brand. I decided to pay an extra few bucks to get the expandability of the springboard slot. Until just recently, I've never used the springboard slot. I sure am glad that I can now though.

What Palm, Inc. thought of WinCE/PPC not too long ago...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 2:16:47 PM #
In retrospect, this arrogance is almost comical now:

http://www.palm.com/enterprise/tools/PvsW_FIN.pdf

Palm believed it's own bull****. That was their downfall.

RE: What Palm, Inc. thought of WinCE/PPC not too long ago...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 4:43:45 PM #
did anybody notice Palm Inc ambivalence even way back when they were the king of the hill? On one paragraphs they say "spreadhseet and bundled software has been available for years" but the next they say "how well do these bundled software work for handheld factor"

they also seems oblivious about progressing technology. (battery sure becomes better and better and the rest of components also require less power)

they also have the gall asking "do people need" these bundled apps. (who care, it's free and that's a feature enough)

they poke fun of Compact Flash slot? (now that's a BIG mistake)

anybody notice they couldn't even lie with straight face even back than (see "ebook" section on the table)

.....this document is a museum piece, complete with Palm reasoning why color doesn't cut it.

WinCE/PPC is here!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2001 5:30:23 PM #
I'm a devoted Palm user - I laid secretly hand on a Merlin Beta on a iPaq.
Honestly - the thing may be bulky, heavy on battery and the menues not as simple as on the Palm - But by good - there here!
These applications (Internet, mail Word eg.) on a Palm would be a dream.
Our Palm is now facing real stiff competition - my guess for 2002 they will have to share the market 50/50 - bash me if you like - but first see for yourself - and do not rate Maelin without giving the OS on a iPaq a good hard look.


RE: What Palm, Inc. thought of WinCE/PPC not too long ago...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/16/2001 9:07:05 AM #
You are a complete moron. Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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