Comments on: Palm Has Strong Enterprise Presence

Many analysts and journalists criticize Palm for having a small percentage of sales to large companies and claim that PPC has a much higher percentage. David Nagel, head of Palm's OS and software division, recently called this a triumph of wishful thinking over data. Several recent studies back him up.

IDC questioned more than 1,100 IT managers from all sizes of businesses and found that Palm handhelds outstrip all others overwhelmingly, with 60% of the companies currently purchasing Palm branded handhelds. Handspring was in a tie for number two with less than 30%. The Palm OS platform is likewise supported by more than 60% of the companies -- which is nearly double that of any other operating system.

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So true...

Manicorp @ 11/30/2001 12:34:04 PM #
I'm a Pediatrician, and I know that in my residency and in my practice, I used and still use palm. Pocket PC is too limited in the medical field. I'm sure majority of medical healthcare system use Palm.
Just stating the fact...


RE: So true...
ptc @ 11/30/2001 2:57:32 PM #
I agree - from my experience, Palm outnumbers PPC in the medical field by an overwhelming margin. Acutally, I only know of one Dr. who bought a PPC - and they did it by mistake (they thought they were buying a Palm!)

Paul C.

RE: So true...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 3:21:40 PM #
The HandEra handhelds are big in the medical field. I have a TRGPro with about 20MB of resources that I use on my rounds. Sure beats carrying 200 lbs of books around with me!

D. Jacobs

RE: So true...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 6:31:27 PM #
From my limited experience, make that "The HandEra handhelds *were* big in the medical field."

The six docs I know that had TRGpros and 330s over the past 2 years have all switched to color Clies (4) and m505s (2).

Small sample size, yes, but I don't think this bodes well for Handera.

RE: So true...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 6:36:19 PM #
I forgot to add - the main advantage Handera had until recently was huge storage space. Now, Palm, Handspring and Sony can all offer this. People then start looking for other features like size and color screen (easier to read) and that's where Handera may have problems.

They need to shrink their handhelds and get a color screen if they want to keep the physician market. I think they realize this now, but after seeing how long it took for them to put out the 330, I can't see them putting out a competitive new handheld anytime soon.

RE: Re:Serious Sam
Roy @ 11/30/2001 12:53:41 PM #
I think you should not be proud of what you have done. People like you are the reason why it's hard to make a living programming. People work hard to put together programs, they should be rewarded for it. Pay the 20 bucks and be happy that someone out there knows what they are doing. You are a sad, sad individual.

RE: Re:Serious Sam
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 1:05:05 PM #
Is any more proof needed that this board needs to be moderated?


RE: Re:Serious Sam
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 1:15:50 PM #
Not moderation, a simpler solution: stop allowing anonymous posts like this one...

RE: moderation
Admin @ 11/30/2001 1:58:40 PM #
Myself & Ed always read the posts and weed out the inapropriate stuff when we can and I am working on a better comment system.


Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...

I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 12:28:16 PM #
While it's great to be able to show Microsoft spin-doctoring for the smoke-and-mirrors act it is, this really doesn't help Palm fix the problems that have been documented repeatedly by the armchair quarterbacks at this site. What would be nice to hear is a Part 2 of this press release in which Palm announces an all-out effort to consolidate their dominance in the business field. A separate department catering to big business and offering complete solutions from a list of hardware/email/database/LAN/wireless/MS Office compatibility options. Do this and the real profits and desired stability may follow. Try to play catch-up with Sony by slowly releasing hardware that keeps falling further back from the leading edge and Palm will likely gradually fade away just like Psion, WordPerfect, Netscape, etc.

Remember, Microsoft has the resources to buy their way into *any* market they initially lack the hardware/software to dominate. (Look what they tried to do to Quicken a few years ago when they wanted a good financial magement program. Intuit resisted a buyout, so now we have Microsoft Money.)

Palm needs to concentrate more on improving themselves and less on what Big Bad Bill and His Minions are doing.

- Armchair Pundit

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 12:59:15 PM #
Typo in 2nd last paragraph: "good financial management program".

By the way, in case no-one's realized, Handspring has seen the writing on the wall and now is in the process of reinventing itself as a PDA/phone company. A brave move, given the potential for Nokia, Sony, Microsoft etc. to quickly enter the market with Treo-killing phones, but Handspring probably didn't have any other realistic options. If the monochrome Treo is a reasonable device, I'll be getting one partly as my way of trying to support the Palm inventors in their struggle for survival.

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 4:19:46 PM #
Perhaps this is the "first salvo" in an all-out effort to rebound.

Give Palm credit for this: since the "resignation" (firing) of Yankowski, they seem to be positioning themselves very actively. No product announcements yet, but a lot of "damage control," which was necessary.

Palm's not as bad-off as people thought they were. The m505's not a bad unit; it's just not as good as it should have been. Consider this: I'm a Cowboys fan, and I have no hope for a few seasons, because they currently stink. If I were a Broncos fan, I might be disappointed that they haven't been as dominant as people thought, but there is still plenty of potential. Palm is kind of like the Broncos--definitely not like the Cowboys, in spite of what the Sony-lovers and Micro$oft lackeys would have you believe here. Once they get things rolling again, they will produce, and it'll no longer be on a "slow development curve."

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 5:39:26 PM #
Guys: do you remember "Can your Palm do This?". This is a big marketing campaign: say Palm is s**t, so we are good... Lots of people, Palm owners, critize Palm, PalmOS, Yankowski, Hawkins, the m100 series, the m505, etc, etc.

What would be said if the m505 battery lasted just a few hours? Or if you sync a .doc or .xls and the format gets distorted on the PC?, or if the size was bigger?

One more thing: the pre-announcement of the m505, what about the pre-anouncement of PPC 2002???

All this c**p about the "beauty" of PPC and the "flaws" of Palm are another big hit from Redmond marketing department...

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 8:55:49 PM #
>One more thing: the pre-announcement of the m505, what about the pre-anouncement of PPC 2002???

What was you point? If you are refering to slumping sales of units because of pre-announced models. Well for the case of the m505 and PPC2002 the base number of people who were planning to by a new PDA but decided to hold out because of the pre-announcement is vastly different. Your comparison is hardly on the same level. Microsoft only wished the anticipation for the PPC2002 was as much as the m505. I'd say for every person anticipating PPC2002 there were at least 15-20 people waiting for the m500's.

There is a slight flaw in your comparison of the pre-announced m505 and PPC2002. You did know that the m505 is a model while the PPC2002 refers to the OS right?

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 9:49:09 AM #
Really? The m505 a model and PPC 2002 an OS? Oh I didnīt notice! ;-)

I will try to make it clearly for you. The bashing against Palm, Handspring, Sony, PalmOS, etc., from users is just another move from "Mighty Bill".

They start posting reviews or CNet, etc., stating how good PPC models are and how "bad" PalmOS models are. Then they write some kind of sales ranking where PPC go first, second, third, Palm Vx in fourth, PPC, PPC, m505 and Visor Deluxe on the last spot.

Then they post some analyst comments whether Palm made this or that mistake and where all major corporations embraced iPaqs... (Do you really know what handhelds are used in corporations by majority?, Do you have contact with IT managers?) I do.

I wonīt go on with this, Iīm getting tired. You like iPaq OK for you. You like m505 itīs fine, you own a CLIE: enjoy it, you have a Jornada, make the best uses of it.

But please stop complaining about USB issues of the m505, just check eBay or UBid and youīll see lots of rufurbished iPaqs and Jornadas...Stop throwing s**t to PalmOS handhelds and do something creative.

Letīs use this excellent forum to discuss and exchange information about new products...

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 10:48:35 AM #
Sure, it's all a conspiracy against Palm.

RE: Unfortunately, Palm still needs to get their act together...
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/3/2001 8:35:32 AM #
It's not as much a conspiracy AGAINST Palm as it is a conspiracy BY Microsoft. MS wants to rule every aspect of the computing world--if you haven't noticed this, then you need to start paying attention or actually living on planet Earth. MS plants people all over and pays them to put out information that's beneficial to MS and detrimental to their competitors. CNet is essentially the MS "bitch," in terms of achieving these goals.

PocketPC a flop?

Foo @ 11/30/2001 4:34:34 PM #
What happened to the massive enterprise penetration that PPC was making? Hmm...perhaps pride cometh before the fall?

Maybe Microsoft will have better luck with Xbox.

RE: PocketPC a flop?
skoty @ 11/30/2001 5:47:10 PM #
As much as I hate to admit it, Microsoft'd be damned before they admit that Palm beat them. They'll keep throwing money, and strategic partners at the Pocket PC until it is successful. Basically, it'll be a war of attrition, and unfortunately, Palm's pockets aren't that deep. I'm not saying Microsoft will ever take over the market, but one thing's for sure, they'll never give up.

RE: PocketPC a flop?
Foo @ 11/30/2001 6:07:53 PM #
Nah, I don't think Microsoft will keep throwing money into PocketPC no matter how deep Microsoft's pockets. They aren't even making any money on PPC now. And Microsoft's commitment to PPC is questionable considering they spend little on marketing, other than the occasional print ad. Where are all the TV spots? I see lots of XP, Office XP, and Xbox ads....but no PocketPC. Perhaps Microsoft doesn't REALLY believe in its own product enough to promote it.

RE: PocketPC a flop?
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 7:36:37 PM #
Sure. I bet MSFT will just throw in the towel and cede the market to Palm.

yeah right.

RE: PocketPC a flop?
digichimp @ 12/1/2001 1:07:45 AM #
MS is in for the long haul according to the speech Mr. Ballmer gave at the PPC 2002 launch.
Their strategic partners including hardware vendors, system integrators and the like are not just testing the waters for fun. Each iteration has a purposeful entrenchment into the market, however small and minute.
PPCs and the OS that runs inside them are just another form factor along with the stinger and tablet pc. .Net will be the glue.

That said, I'm please by the strides Palm has taken to turnaround; ramping up to ARM, organization separation of the platform, and developing a better awareness of the developers and users out there.
I'm really looking forward to the Treo and other 2nd generation wireless devices.

RE: PocketPC a flop?
Foo @ 12/1/2001 1:30:14 AM #
The most crippling problem with PocketPC is the price. $600 is insane! I don't see a future for PocketPC as long as this remains the case.

RE: PocketPC a flop?
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 8:14:57 AM #
Agreed; 100%. I have been tempted (several times) to go out and buy a Pocket PC PDA but everytime single time I come back home empty handed (and continue to use my Palm). It is good that I always gather my act together, particularly when I see the price: $600 or $600+ its just too much for a PDA. The other thing is size. Forget it; they are just too big. Those two factors always bring me back to Palm. I will probably get a color CLIE (I'm still with a monochrome Palm).

RE: PocketPC a flop?
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 8:21:21 AM #
Forgot to mention battery life... just too short for me. Besides I'm very happy with my Palm (except for the screen) and all the very useful software loaded into it and which I use many times every single work day (report writing, patient database, scheduling, diagnostic database)... sorry Pocket PC. Fix these problems and I'll try again...

RE: PocketPC a flop?
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 6:24:38 PM #
Hign Priced products is the price you pay when you have to use supercharged processors and memory to make up for a resource hungrey, bloated operating system. Heck without MSWin we'd all be running 386 processors and wondering how we'd use all the power. But on the plus side it always LOOKS PRETTY!

Pawm = Yawn

I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 7:49:21 PM #
Yawn, Yawn...
Lets go to sleep.

Wake us all up when Palm actually has something worth reporting.

(like if there stock will ever break the $4.00 mark.. or Their PDAs actually can do something new that their original Palm Pilot couldn't do, LOL, oh God, please...)

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 8:08:10 PM #
Look out... troll on the loose.

Perhaps they are a bit "boring", but they do the job, don't cost all that much and work like a dream. There arn't too many products where you can run the same SW on a model that is more than 2 years old, as you get to run on the latest one available. Lets see where the PPC is in about 3 years.

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 11/30/2001 8:30:45 PM #
Or where PPC was three years ago - Oh! That's right, what was it, CE something?

RE: Palm = Yawn
TDS @ 12/1/2001 12:25:00 AM #
Interesting... My Visor (and Palm branded PDA's too) can fax, print to IR printers, control my PC remotely, connect to my server, take digital photos, etc... I find it pretty darn useful.
By the way... What are you doing here on this site if you don't have an interest in the product? It does not seem like a very productive use of your or our time.

Maybe you are confusing the Palm OS's simplicity and ease of use through the years as lack of innovation. I find it quite nice that I don't have to double my CPU speed & RAM every year just to run the latest program.


RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 10:06:28 AM #
He is reading this, while heīs waiting for his beautiful, adored, iPaq to get recharged for the third time in the day... ;-)

He canīt go to a PPC forum to discuss about software...

I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 10:08:17 AM #
Well said. I am a Serive and Sales Rep for Palm's call center. (1-800-881-7256) and I find it quite interesting how many people will trash on Palm's company and their units. When actually Palm is still taking care of business. Trust me, things are plenty busy here and I alone have raked in more than $18,000 in sales since Thanksgiving.

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 11:30:17 AM #
J Hawkins and crew got the design 'right' from the start. Palm's are very good at what they were designed to do: let you quickly store and retrieve useful information when your on the go.

What is being mistaken as a lack of innovation is just a conservitive philosophy designed not to screw up a good thing.

That said, they need to add a 'wow' feature now and then to get the upgrade crowd buying and move more heavily into the peripheral market. They also need to lower the entry point of a basic Palm down to a level that would encourage mass adoption, people here often forget that the vast majority of people in the civilized world do not own a electronic handheld of any sort.

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 4:01:21 PM #
A question for the sales rep a few posts up. Will there be any marginal improvement in the 505's screen before the new model in March?

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 5:15:13 PM #
No. The Sony-sourced m505 screen cannot be improved by software hacks or even using a stronger sidelight. The m525 will take care of this, though.

m525 in March 2002?
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 5:50:47 PM #
Do you think we will get the m525 in March 2002?

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 5:53:07 PM #
We've been told to expect it by the middle of May, 2001. Sorry.

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 5:56:13 PM #
May 2002 would be the ONE YEAR Anniversary of the m505 so maybe that makes sense. How much time passed from the V to Vx? One Year?

What can we expect with the m525?
16MB RAM? Better Screen? OS 4.1? Anything else?

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 8:43:19 AM #

Improved color screen

Improved color Date Book, Address, Mail and a few other applications now being finalized


Universal connector

Metal case, 4 colors (black, blue, gray, red)

4 oz

SD expansion slot

m525 in MAY 2002?
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 4:22:45 PM #
MAY 2002?

RE: Pawm = Yawn
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 6:02:43 PM #
What about OS 5, a better screen is nice, but not if the next gen OS 5 comes out 3-6 months later. I mean I like to keep up with technology, but at $500 a pop I don't see buying the M5255 unless it comes with OS 5, so I will wait. I like my M505, BUT the screen needs to be better. I wonder why Sony doesn't let Palm buy the better screen?????

Lawyers Too.

I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 7:50:48 AM #
I'm a third year law student and all the students, professors, and lawyers I interact with use and prefer Palm devices. I have seen mayble a handful of Pocket PC's being used. The handheld theory with lawyers is that you want to have something that (1) interacts with everyone else's device so that you don't waste time; (2) looks sleek & elegant (good color); (3) and small. Unfortunately, Pocket PC does cannot yet deliver on this.

RE: Lawyers Too.
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 12:41:18 PM #
Actually, neither can Palm. Sony is the only maker with a model fulfilling all three of these requirements.

Sony looks /great/
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 10:54:26 PM #
...If you like the buck-rogers-zap-gun asthetic.

Seriously - Every model they come out with has more chrome, or even more of that nasty purple. They've apparently found their target market, and it completely lacks any sort of taste. or restraint. But then again, their big claims to fame are playing MP3's and having a high-res screen with way-too-thin fonts.They obviuously don't care about the business market.

The Sony models are nice.
They've got some really innovative ideas. The feed-through of the Memory Stick to the cradle was a bright idea, particularly.
But their asthetics are strictly consumer.

There's a reason that Palm went with flat, matte grey for their first 6-or-so models, and it's NOT because they coulden't find somebody willing to mold them a purple case.

huh !? which new Clie model is purple ??
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 11:39:03 PM #
And just face it, Sony is a japanese company, as long as Japanese font is readable on Clie then their job is pretty much done.

And Clie's not all about Purple cases, there's like 1 or 2 models of Clie with purple case only. And which palm/Handspring Palm OS device looks better than Clie ??

Sony is more into the multimedia market, that's probably why you think they are not in the business market, but I don't see having thin font = don't care about the business market though LOL.

RE: Lawyers Too.
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 8:57:21 AM #

Judge for yourselves how much "their asthetics are strictly consumer" If you haven't yet seen the T415 in black, take a look. It is the most "professional" looking handheld I've seen since IBM's black version of the Vx. Sony is covering all the bases from the designer (purple VAIO color) types to the budget-minded but stylish (S320). The black version of the T615 is probably going to decimate Palm's sales in January. (Ultra-thin, light, metal case; high resolution color screen; 16 MB RAM; MP3-expandable; Memory Stick; long lasting Li ion battery; priced not much higher than Palm's poor m505.)

RE: Lawyers Too.
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 12:34:58 PM #
as for the T615... i can't buy one yet, so it doesn't matter how good it is.

I also cannot afford to buy the newest and best products everytime something new comes out, i am just too poor to afford the products.

plus the best color palm screen is still on the Visor.

the best color palm with a small form factor is still the m505.

although the T615 will be great when it is here.... the simple fact is i cannot get one, so it doesn't matter.

and i use the reasoning for the Treo's also... until i can get it, it sucks!


RE: Lawyers Too.
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 9:12:09 PM #
"plus the best color palm screen is still on the Visor."
no, best color is certainly Clie N6xx or N7xx series.

"the best color palm with a small form factor is still the m505."
though Clie T3xx's screen is not good, but m505 is even worse.

RE: Lawyers Too.
peter167 @ 12/3/2001 12:40:40 AM #
First of all, all people have different preferences over color for professional. So please do not use your preference as the benckmark of bla bla bla.

Second, have you really seen the T415. No backlight on Grafatti area = no improvements; backlight is way too weak. Fonts are not readable at some angle under normal light condition = they blurred. If I am going to view pictures on the handheld, it will not be a big difference. However, it you are reading something very text-oriented, such as an e-book, a word-doc, that will be very tired.

Finally, let me tell you one thing. The m505 was first made more than 6 months ago before the launch of any possible color T series, so why it is not so unexpected to see T have some better features than the m505, especially both of them are high-end models?

By the way, have any of you seen the T615 in front of you yet? Is its backlight as weak as the T415?

P.S. The thickness between the m505 and the new T600 is only 0.01 inch, but the T600 is much taller.

RE: Lawyers Too.
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/3/2001 1:50:57 PM #
The CLIE may have much higher resolution than a Prism, but after comparing them I bought a Prism. Color vibrancy is much better than a CLIE. I also feared the dust issues (I also own an iPaq which is plagued by dust) and didn't care if I had to recharge it nightly. The font is in some ways better (smoother) and in some ways harder to read (being either too gray or too thin, or both?). Bottom line, everyone's needs are different. CLIEs screen is not superior in all ways and, for me, the Prism's screen is superior.


Pocket PC rules

I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 1:05:45 PM #
Everyone at the very large company I work for has switched to Pocket PCs. Word and Excel compatability that is much better than the addons for Palms, larger color screen and most importantly wireless ethernet is why. Wireless ethernet is a joke on Palms.

RE: Pocket PC rules
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 2:11:30 PM #
Who do you work for....Microsoft?

RE: Pocket PC rules
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 2:16:23 PM #
No, he couldn't.

A recent survey of Microsoft employees by F.U.D. Associates found 92% of them used Palms, 5% used PocketPCs (many provided by Microsoft itself) and 3% used a veriety of other devices, primarily Blackberry RIMs.


RE: Pocket PC rules
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 4:40:52 PM #
The first poster refers 'everyone' to just himself. It is only a one-man company.

RE: Pocket PC rules
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/1/2001 5:09:09 PM #
Yeh, u r damn right, but...... your PPC needs a nuclear
power plant or you will be out of juice.

RE: Pocket PC rules
Foo @ 12/1/2001 5:44:03 PM #
A troll said: "Everyone at the very large company I work for has switched to Pocket PCs. "

Oh, so that would be you and the night janitor? Fair enough.

"Word and Excel compatability that is much better than the addons for Palms,"

Too bad it doesn't come close to the compatability offered by Wordsmith. Try again troll.

" larger color screen and most importantly wireless ethernet is why. Wireless ethernet is a joke on Palms."

Yes, but at least the Palm has enough battery power left to perform those functions. You'll need a gas powered generator for your PocketPC.

RE: Pocket PC rules
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 11:06:32 PM #
You really need to take a look at DataViz and Documents To Go 4.0. It does a much better job with Word Documents than the latest hack from MS. They can't even keep the formatting right. Then you can take a look at the PPT viewer and the Excel app. They far exceed what MS has done.

RE: Pocket PC drools
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/3/2001 8:44:59 AM #
"large color screen?"

OK, I admit it's larger than the Palm's, but in that form factor, how much difference does 3/4" really make?

Pocket PC is overrated. Period. It does a lot of things, sure, but it gulps power and is too bulky to use on a day-to-day basis. I do tech support for a high school, and I purchased an HP Jornada 548 under the guise that it would be more useful. I ended up having to carry my charger with me every day to charge it up at lunch! Yeah, that's useability...

I'm back with my Palm now, and all is right with the world...

Despite Reaffirmed Guidance, Palm Faces Tough Season

I.M. Anonymous @ 12/2/2001 9:42:29 PM #
"While Palm has apparently cleaned up some of its immense obsolete-inventory problem, the old stuff still hasn't gone away. It still has too many employees for a company its size. And it has those behind-the-curve products, its deepest-seated and most intractable problem."

RE: Despite Reaffirmed Guidance, Palm Faces Tough Season
peter167 @ 12/3/2001 12:49:48 AM #
Are you recommending us not to follow this axx analyst or to follow him?

If later, are you the analyst?

Do any of us believe Handspring's models are actually lighter and thinner?
Do any of us believe Pocket PCs outsell Palm OS in the enterprise?

RE: Despite Reaffirmed Guidance, Palm Faces Tough Season
I.M. Anonymous @ 12/3/2001 11:24:20 AM #
Gee, has that guy ever seen a HS PDA? It is the biggest of all the palmOS makers, of course Handera joins the HS rank too in terms of bulkiness.



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