Comments on: PalmSource: Symbol Demoing Color QVGA Model
Last week, HandEra and Epson said that some company would release a handheld with a color QVGA screen within a year, though they declined to say whom. Here at PalmSource, Symbol is demonstrating prototype handhelds that have color QVGA screens which means, of course, they have a virtual Graffiti area. They also have monochrome models. These are prototypes only; the company is looking for a large customer before it will commit to making them.
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RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
I guess I should add this is IMO but there are many others who want this also IMHO ;)
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
> Color QVGA, Hi-res. Just want to make sure they
> understand this.
Are you from Mars ? Do you know what is CLIE 760,610,and T615 ? They have the BEST color screen you can image.
ARE YOU SURE YOU WILL PAY A THOUSAND BUCKS??
That price is ridiculous.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
Well I'm a male if that's what you're refering to :)
>Do you know what is CLIE 760,610,and T615 ? They have the BEST color screen you can image.
I think you've missed the point.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
Am I assuming correctly that most critics to this are Sony Clie' fanboys who would hate to see 320x240 or virtual graffiti truly becoming an "emerging standard?" Why worry, since the new Epson screens Handera will be soon using are also capable of displaying 320x320 when the silkscreen area is minimized, therefore it's a win-win situation for all developers and consumers.
QVGA is not good. I prefer 320x480.
Screen real estate is the MOST valuable element of a handheld. Those who want to keep the "classic graffiti" really have no point!
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
Actually the emerging standard is square screen, so obviously that can't be 320X240. it could be 160X160, 320X320, 480X480 ..... Those are not Sony fan boy out there that's against virtual graffiti, most of those people are palm fan boys who think fixed graffiti is always the best.
Anyways sit up and listen, high density square is the energing standard, not 320X240.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
One of the reasons I bought a pair of m505's was for the illuminated graffiti area. My job takes me in tunnels and poorly lit communications closets, plus I read/work/play games at night in bed (depending on what my wife is doing, she takes priority!). It's an easy feature to overlook though, as the 505 was the only color device with graffiti illumination that I could find. Making this area lit hurts brightness slightly because the light source is between the buttons and the silkscreen area, instead of immediately near the viewing area.
I think I would prefer the virtual grafitti, as Palm screen space is valuable, but it would have to be well executed to get me to buy. It won't be the Symbol though, as much as as I appreciate their ruggedness :)
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
Most apps scale perfectly fine. I don't notice any scaling problems in daily use. It is unlikely you have ever used one.
> 320x480 is the future with 320x320 for old apps double pixelling.
Try scaling 320x480 to 480x640. It'll be awful, since you'll actually have to lose pixels in some places, and 480x640 is the future for this size of device.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
The SkyTraveler
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
>Most apps scale perfectly fine. I don't notice any scaling problems in daily use. It is unlikely you have ever used one.
I bought a Handera 330 and many of my old apps with drawings didn't scale well. I returned it in a few days.
>> 320x480 is the future with 320x320 for old apps double pixelling.
>Try scaling 320x480 to 480x640. It'll be awful, since you'll actually have to lose pixels in some places, and 480x640 is the future for this size of device.
The future is here! 320x480 is the future of palm form factor screen.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
>> Scaling 320x480 to 480x640 will be awful
Excuse me? It seems that you would just double the width to 640x480, making it a VGA screen. No scaling required.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
bigger screen with lower resolution (320*240)
I rather have a 15" screen running at 800*600 then a 17" screen running at 640*840 things will look so ugly ....
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
> Excuse me? It seems that you would just double the width
> to 640x480, making it a VGA screen. No scaling required.
Do you even think about these things before you post? You have just designed a handheld with a landscape form factor
and double-wide pixels for scaled apps.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
> 17" screen running at 640*840 things will look so ugly
You do understand that the pixel density on the hi-res Clies and HandEra 330 are already way greater than either of the monitors configs you just described above don't you?
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
> Only low end will still use graffiti.
Name one successful handheld yet that has a built in keyboard.
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
RE: ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
why not higher resolution?
RE: why not higher resolution?
RE: why not higher resolution?
RE: why not higher resolution?
RE: why not higher resolution?
Anyways sit up and listen, high density square is the energing standard, not 320X240."
Great then you're in agreement. Since the HandEra screen in high-res with the graffiti area UP is 240x240 square. Only when you drop the graffiti area do you get 240x320.
As for your view of "emerging standards".
1. PalmSource (the OS side of Palm), has laid out the fact that they're resolution agnostic in OS5. They want to support many different devices from displays that are watch size to tablet size devices. Licencees are free to mate the OS with whatever screen size suits them.
2. As for our *current* hardware. It's your assertion that Sony's 320x320 none-software driven graffiti screen is the "emerging standard"!? How many licencees support that? 1, Sony. How many licencees have shown screens larger than 160x160 and/or that have a software driven graffiti area? 3, HandEra, Symbol, and Samsung (i300). Not that we can make any assumptions about what production OS5 products will look like, but most of the dev boards displayed running on ARM hardware at PalmSource also have software driven "virtual" graffiti.
3. My sources say that Sony will leave their High-res API's behind in OS4, and use PalmSources API's for high-res in OS5, so even so will have the option of virtual graffiti and any screen resolution that's most appropriate for their OS5 hardware (if any).
-Craig Bowers
Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
Thats a nice palm but ewww. Also the 1000 price tag is a bit too high
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
This would be WHY it is ugly.... dumbasses
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
http://pdan.has.it
RE: Quite possible the ugliest handheld the world has seen
* INDUSTRIAL * Palm
I swear, everyone looks at the headline, looks at the picture, and comments.
"Geez, that sure is ugly"
"Geez, I'm not gonna buy that for $1000"
GAHHHHHH.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
32. You are obviously much younger or have never stepped foot in a manufacturing environment (yes, I've stepped foot in many-about 30-40 different CM's/OEM's).
Line operators drop things, this is very common. Investments in technologies for data collection must be met with durability in mind. Inorder to minimize the shock to the device, the device must me a bit larger that the "typical" handheld. Try dropping your VisorPrism on a concrete manufacturing floor at 4ft. (I dare you) and see what happens. This design is larger to surpress the shock on the sensitive circuitry. I.e. Industrial use.
The ability to provide 802.11b and remote connectivity is commendable. This is a device that a serious systems integrator drools over. The price is high, true, but it was designed to fulfill a business need and was not designed to take the place of your Palm IIIxe that you use for playing games. It was designed for hard-core business use/industrial applications.
This looks to be an extremely valuable device for those who know how to use it and what it was designed for. Great Job Symbol, I hope you soon release this Unit. I'd certainly be interested in developing for it.
Does the barcode scanner support 2D symbologies (i.e. PDF417) in addition to the more common Code 39, UPCA/E, EAN13/8,CODE128, etc?
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
They also break if you look at them wrong.
If you don't know what you are talking about, don't post! The monsters at work are used to read the bar codes on items as they are loaded on the trucks. They can do this without getting off of the fork truck. The Symbol is for a completely different type of end use.
Jeese!!
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
Typically, you don't want to bring the Symbol on street with you, but it comes handy when you want a scanner with small database capabilities.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
You are dead right, and it's much cheaper than replacing the 4 or 5 consumer handhelds that would die under the same conditions. If you drop your handheld in a warehouse, it spells the difference between just hoping the boss did not see you, and looking for the broom and dustpan.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
You should also keep in mind that the entire line of TRG and HandEra models were developed for business users and not the general population. I have a HandEra 330 and love it. It may not have color (yet & I agree that at some point it would be nice) but it does everything I need it to. I have no need to carry a laptop in the field any longer... I have both serial and CF Ethernet, providing all the access to the communications equipment (routers, switches, etc.) I need to config/fix them when at a site.
IMHO...
If you like your Sony that that is great (enhanced applications, play games, look at nice pictures, whatever), but stop bashing the QVGA screens as sub-standard.
Virtual Graffiti makes sense… illuminated, Graffiti feedback, “soft” keyboard options, extensible, etc.
I think the Sony has its place in the consumer market, but very few players can grab the business/industrial market… this is where HandEra (and the soon-to-be-others based on the QVGA screen) wins.
As a side note… I think it is important that ALL application developers code their apps to detect the screen, so that it does not matter what size it is. Could you imagine if all PC based apps were coded to one screen size? This can be done with minimal increase in code size.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
see link: http://www.symbol.com/products/mobile_computers/mobile_palm_pi_hdwr_spt1700.html
rgs,
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
Bob, I really like your new line of forklifts but they just don't do it for me in the looks department. Could you add some racing stripes and a spoiler? And paint it candy apple red? That protective cage around the driver ruins the lines. You'll have to take that off.. Then maybe you'll make a sale.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
i'm just saying i think it's ugly. if it suited my needs, i would buy it, but i would have to come to terms with myself that i have an ugly pda, that happens to be very functional.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
one word... XBOX! over PS2...yeah Xbox is powerful,,but damn! look at the design..i wouldnt want it to sit in my livingroom.
RE: * INDUSTRIAL * Palm
QVGA display
RE: Not QVGA display, but build in scanengine
Is this small enough? Remember, this is not an industrial version but just to let you guys know Symbol has more to offer then you think! If you want an industrial unit, the volume doesn't matter. It just needs to work and save money!
Also have a look at: http://www.symbol.com/products/mobile_computers/mobile_ppc_ppt2800.html
good luck!
backlight on?
http://images.palmstation.com/symqvga/pic3.jpg
RE: backlight on?
Huh? In comparison to what? It looks a lot more crisp and readable than most pictures of other color screens I've seen on the web. In the picture on this site, there is a very bright light (a flash maybe even) shining down on it and it still looks good.
RE: backlight on?
Good grief, I've seen the thing in person, it's FINE. Half that "wash-out" is probably a flash, or the overhead lighting, as it doesn't look like that in person. This thread, and palminfocenter in general of late seems to give new meaning to "a picture is worth a thousand words", except that in this and many threads case, most of 'em are pointless dribble. One picture does not a story tell...
-Craig Bowers
how can you miss the point so completely
The Palm OS allows many companies to offer MANY options.
That is the beauty of it. It is that simple.
You CAN buy a M120 with a small black and white screen cheap.
You CAN buy a M100 even cheaper.
You CAN buy a M500 which has a super small package, and excellent battery life.
You CAN buy a M505 which is small, color screen, and fairly good battery life.
But ... (now here is the cool part) ....
You CAN ALSO get a Sony t615, t415.
What? You hate sony? Well heck go look at the Handspring, or the Handera, or one of the others.
Once again, for those of you who weren't paying attention.
Palm OS
1. Simple
2. Quick
3. Powerful
4. A bizillion different companies making a bizillion+1 different models that all work together.
5. Lots of choices which all work together!
6. Read #5 again.
If you want a qvga... buy one.
If you want color... buy one.
If you want a basic model... buy one.
And there is no BEST one. Just worry about finding the one which is BEST for you.
nategall says "blah!"
RE: how can you miss the point so completely
Thank you. There are too many Palm "fans" who do nothing but bash Palm/Sony/Handspring/Handera/etc because of their respective shortcomings.
There are no shortcomings. There are only different manufacturers with different strengths which are their own improvements over the excellent foundation created by palm. There is beauty in diversity.
This philosophy shows up in the software end too. If all Palm devices shipped with Datebk4 and Documents to Go, there would be no products offered by Pimlico, Iambic, Blue Nomad, etc.
Yes there is room for improvement on both the hardware and software sides of the spectrum. And Yes, the industry needs to establish standards to make sure that precious development time is not wasted on dead end technologies. But that does not mean that you have to crucify specific vendors just because they aren't all things to all men.
John Mahala
RE: how can you miss the point so completely
A point to bashers of all kinds
Hm, there is this one company that comes to mind but I can't think of it's name...
morons
RE: how can you miss the point so completely
of course nobody has it so I just find the best thing available when I buy.
I have a M505 because there was no Sony Color version out that was any good. Now, I would probably buy the T615. But by the time I can justify buying a new handheld, Sony may not have the "best fit" for me. That is what makes this so cool.
Thanks to the people that give me my fix of information. Much appreciated.
nategall says "blah!"
RE: how can you miss the point so completely
---
News Editor
RE: how can you miss the point so completely
Yes, life would be boring if all Palms looked the same and came with exactly the same features. Should that happen, all you bashers would have to find something else to do. Competition only makes for better things down the road. I can’t wait to see what happens over the next 5 years, seeing how the past 5 have been.
Get a life & enjoy the diversity!
What's the big deal with QVGA?
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
2. Physical space - sure, 320x320 has more pixels than 320x240 - but it is crammed into a smaller space. That makes it harder to read. I have 20/15 vision - but not everyone does. And even for me it is annoying to read a lot of text at a small size.
3. Virtual Graffiti - you can replace it with an onscreen keyboard and NOT lose part of the display. It would also be possihle to develop other replacements - like virtual versions of some of those graffiti area overlays 3rd party vendors well.
4. Backlighting for the VG area - nice.
5. Wider availability of screens should mean lower cost. 320x240 is standard QVGA, fairly readily available.
There are two designs that'd win me today:
1. A color model of the HE330 with USB - and preferably an audio codec capable of MP3.
2. A color model of the Handspring Treo with expansion via SD/MMC (or MS for that matter). Preferably a 270g (Graffiti, not keyboard) with a virtual graffiti area.
As it stands right now, I will not buy a serial PDA - USB only. The only think on the horizon, or out, right now that I'm seriously considering is a Treo 180g - but I'm waiting to see if the CDMA model comes out, so I may just wait to see if they do a 270g.
The Clie 760 is tempting, but mainly for the keen factor more than usability.
-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
Actually, more data is visable on a 320x320 screen than on a 240x320 screen.
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
Really? Do these tests on your Clie:
Using the default launcher, how many icons are visible on the screen? The HandEra has 24 (4 columns and 6 rows)
On the MemoPad, using the smallest font, how many lines of text are visible on the screen? The HandEra has 22 lines.
On Quicksheet, create a new spreadsheet, again using the smallest font, how many rows and columns are visible on the screen? The HandEra has: portrait mode - 20 rows and 4.5 columns, landscape mode - 13 rows and 6.25 columns
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
The clie t415/t615 comes with a new default launcher that supports the high res screen LIKE the handera.
So, on those clie (you can also load it on the 610/760 etc..) it shows 28 PROGRAM ICONS.
7 rows, 4 columns. take a look at Ed's t615 review for the screen shot.
And again like the memopad.. handera OPTIMIZED the memopad to use the new screen realestate.. the Clie memopad is not modified so it shows the same ammount of lines as on a normal 160x160 palm. the only thing modified is the high resolution Text, not the program it self. So you win on this account.
As for quicksheet, i don't use quicksheet but i'll load TinySheet right now..
It shows.. 7 COLUMNS (A through G) and 21 ROWS (1 through 21, with 22 half way displayed) then there's then on top there's the checkmark and the X and the calculator and on the bottom is the scroll bar and Sheets, and the cut/paste/color/functions/math icons.
So in conclusion, the 320x320 by your example (launcher and spreadsheet) displays WAY more than 320x240 :)
If you want screen shots, ask, i'll post it in my nxtclieclub yahoo group :)
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
No, more pixels are visible in 320x320 than 320x240. Whether or not that turns into more data being visible depends on the application and the user's preferences. A spreadsheet is an awful example, because it is all dependent on how big the rows and columns are, and it's even worse when you aren't comparing the same app. I just opened up a sample spreadsheet on the 330. With the graffiti area minimized, I have 20 rows and 9 columns, plus if I had a keyboard attached, I still have 3 more lines below that to enter functions and other values. Seeing that the fonts are pretty small with 20 rows on a taller 330 screen, they must be awful tiny on the Clie.
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
Wow! On a Clie, you don't ever have to touch the stylus to the "viewable area" of the screen so you don't have to worry about damaging it? That's impressive. I'm going to have to get me one."
He's referring to using the Graffiti area heavily, writing with the stylus. The Graffiti area is much more likely to build up scratches over time than the rest of the screen. This is a very real reason why "virtual graffiti" is a mistake for PalmOS devices.
RE: What's the big deal with QVGA?
I hear the risk of a car accident goes up dramatically when you leave your driveway too...
Can someone point me to all the posts of 330 owners not being about to see through all their screen scratches? In my experience on the older Palm's that have come across my desk for repair, by the time you have that many scratches on the top surface of the graffiti area, the character recognition has also degraded to the point of requiring a replacement. For those with scratchy stylii though, that's what screen protectors (or Scotch Satin tape on the graffiti area) are for.
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ATTN: Palm, Sony, Handspring
Color QVGA, Hi-res. Just want to make sure they understand this. This should be standard on all next-gen Palms, especially the OS5 ARM devices.
REPEAT:
No More Silkscreen Area
Thank You.