Comments on: Palm Says Microsoft/DOJ Settlement Is Inadequate

The whole Microsoft suit was not borne out of MS being a monopoly rather Bill Gates failure in the early 1990's and pony up a big campaign payoff...er I mean contribution to the Clinton administration. I guess the $50,000 wasnt enough compared to the 1 ro 2 million dollar "gifts" that were given by other big wigs in the industry.

So my advice to Palm is to shut up, build the better product and take them on head to head. And, in the mean time, quit sniveling...Whineing is for the rest of the world to do, not Americans.

Many people have asked why PalmSource doesn't just give up on the Palm Desktop and connect directly to Outlook. Here's your answer, Microsoft won't let that happen. As soon as Palm did so, Microsoft would change Outlook to break Palm's connection to it. And will do so as many times as it takes.

This isn't about the Palm OS being better that Pocket PPC or vice versa. It's about Microsoft using its PC monopoly to make a handheld monopoly.

Read that email from Bill Gates again. This isn't accidental. They is a deliberate plot by the Chairman of Microsoft to break the laws of this country. So which is it, is Bill Gates an idiot or a crook?

Doesn't this make you angry at all? Microsoft has seen it can't beat Palm fair and square so it is willing to use dirty tricks. If it can't win through fair competition, it will just cheat.

What?!?!?!

As for Bush and his cabinet, they are the worst thing to happen to this great nation since the McCarthy era in terms of civil rights, conservation and basic police-state enforcement tactics. Intelligent people not in the pocket of big business will do everything they can to make sure this usurper is dethroned in 2004!

My god, your post makes you sound like the Enron CEO! 8-)

1. Obviously you're not intelligent, and you're a whining idiot who doesn't know a thing about reality yourself. Take a course in Microeconomics and Macroeconomics (when you get to college, I bet you're still in Middle School). There's a reason that big business got big--and it wasn't b/c of the government, it was b/c they're educated, got ahead, made money. They're intelligent, and they vote intelligent. That usually equals Republican. Only fairy-tale Hollywood folks (spoon-fed and the real spoiled millionaires) and the people they influence (which is unfortunately alot of gullible people) believe your liberal lie.

2. Bush is a man of principle, which has been foreign to the White House for 8 years prior to his arrival.

3. If you really think he had anything to do w/ the DOJ ruling, you need to go read the Constitution once again (or have you not gotten that far in school?)

Both fail to notice that the world is actually bigger than their own back yard.
Both think in black and white: if you're not with us, you're against us.
Both do not accept people who have an opinion of their own.

I won't even comment on the first poster's "great products". That person needs medical assistance.

Cheers,
Jan

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24096.html

"...This quite sensational document opens up a new chapter in the competitive saga, and means Microsoft has a new, wealthy public opponent of a kind it's not encountered before..."

And if it was not for Bush the case (M$) would be settled by now!

Just my 2c!

I for one am very supportive of the president. It bothers me that he is being compared to Bill Gates. One is a leader who has rallied the country since September 11th, the other is indirectly responsible for the production of software that is exploited hourly around the world by hackers.

If Clinton were in office, he'd probably give a full pardon to Microsoft anyway!

Probably becuase the economy DID begin to fall apart under Clinton. And because Leiberman is involved in the Enron investigation just so he can cover his own ASS. And also because I'm right, the president should not be compared in any way to the man who makes the world feel insecure about using computers because his operating system is hacked hourly.

(Has anyone else noticed that Windows 2000 is having critical updates posted about once a week lately?)

--------------
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definately isn't for you.

But the problem is that sometimes we don't have choice. If you are going to buy a new PC, the chance of having Windows OS preloaded is 99%. Under windows OS, the chance of having MS Office is another 99%. The WMP is another 99%.

Linux is not mature yet for non-commercial users.

What are we going to do? Or say .. What can we do?

It is interesting for the idea to get refunded, but I don't know how the process works, and personally I have not tried myself. I bought clone computers most of the time.

Yes, the commercial users are switching to Linux. It is a definite trend. Unless Linux and Linux-based software companies get the money paid by commercial uses and re-invested into future development, end users will have a difficult time to switch away from Microsoft.

Some of us have tried Mandrake and/or Redhat. How easy is to use that? If I ask my neighbor just to try it for a few weeks, they will quit using it in maybe just the first hour. Not all people all techies. And people are afraid to "break" their computer.

Linux is not mature for non-commercial uses (end-users) yet.

I run StarOffice instead of Office. I use Netscape Mail instead of Outlook. Windows 2000 is only around to play my games - there are alternatives to Microsoft.

I like my Palm!

I agree with Jim that many companies who support Linux do so at 'server level', not at worlstation level. But that's fine. I hope that many companies around the world will start noticing that there is life besides Microsoft. FUD tactics are just that, fear uncertainty and doubt. IBM invented those, Microsoft perfected them.

I also agree with the poster who says that the average Linux junkie will have no problems connecting his handheld to his/her pc. I have been running Linux for a couple of years now, but I didn't even know it was there!
Okay, my fault perhaps, but I guess I expected to find at least some info on PIC. By following the latest and the hottest on sites like PIC you won't hear a thing about Linux. How about another entry in the Main Menu? "Linux"

But Ed is probably right, too. He's got two hands, a single head and there's only 24 hours in a day.

Peter,
I think you will be suprised to see how easy modern Linux distro's are. They have come a long way. Check this Ximian thing for example.

Some poster mentioned Ximian. So I went to http://www.ximian.org to check it out. WOW.
My grandmother could use that, and it looks slick. This Evolution program looks like the missing link in office applications for Linux.

Question:
Is there a possibility to make PIC even better by adding Linux info one way or another?
I know the P stands for Palm, but I wouldn't be surprised if Linux users outnumbered Mac users. So if you're gonna do Mac, you will have to do Linux too.
Am I right?

Hmmm... maybe we should clone Ed.
dd if=ED of=EDD

Cheers,
Jan

/*
Lowering flame shield
*/

I accept the fact that many first time users of Linux will be scared to death when trying to rpm something into their machine and suddenly dependency errors fly all over the place. Been there, done that.

But IT managers are not alone in their bedroom wrestling with an OS that seems to have a life of its own.
They usually have professional system administrators, many of them Linux junkies at home. Guys who know Unix because a lot of big servers still run that stuff. There is a wealth of *nix administrators out there.
What reason does this IT manager have?

Linux support is readily available from a lot of sources. Healthy competition there.

Office productivity and communication are well covered by Linux now. It's the 'other' end-user applications that are still lacking. Something like CAD CAM for example, or financial software...

And that was my point when asking this question about a Linux entry in the Main Menu.
Stimulate Linux activity by paying attention to those people/companies who actually do something with it. And inform us, the PIC readers, along the way.

And I guess you're right when you're saying that Linux isn't at the level of administration-ease that other OSes are with a point-and-shoot interface. But tools are being developed for that rapidly.
I am amazed at the level of a tool like Yast2 (SuSE) for example. I upgraded a machine from 6.4 to 7.2 yesterday and it was a revelation. I didn't have to do anything! And SuSE is already at 7.3! Can't wait for 7.4. I hope it will have KDE3 and the next version of OpenOffice (StarOffice), both scheduled for the coming months. But I digress...

Cheers,
Jan

Hopefully this won't destroy your image of me as some kind of all-knowing Palm god ;-) but I depend heavily on people like you to tip me off to new applications. I promise you, I print everything I hear about new Linux for Palm apps. For example, we heavily covered Empower Technologies' Linux DA OS. But that's about all I've heard from the Linux camp in a long time.

If you are a Linux enthusiast or developer, please let me know about any new Linux related apps or updates you know about and I'll cheerfully cover them.

Like I said before, I'm not qualified to write a full "How to connect you Palm to your Linux Box". I'd make horrible errors that would have you guys flaming me for weeks. But if someone who knows what they are talking about wants to write one, please contact me.

-Ed

---
News Editor

Point taken.
(ehh, you're really not a god? Come on, you're jokin' right? Be careful Ed, my view of the world is very fragile. Ouch, oops there it went, oh well.)

But I think that even now, with a limited knowledge of Linux at PIC, some things could be done.

Information is a key point here imo. Assuming that PIC would make the decision to include Linux info, it could start by offering (links to) basic information such as howto's, software and hardware manufacturers. Just like you guys do for Windows based counterparts.

Found this page http://mobilix.org/pda_linux_palm.html very helpful for example. I'm not suggesting you copy that, just an impression.

An easy argument would be that apparently there are sites for geeks, so why PIC?
My answer would be that PIC is a large mainstream palm site and not a gathering place for geeks, even though many posters in the forums clearly belong to the 0.001% of power users, not your Joe Average. It's high time that big influential mainstream quality sites start paying attention to alternative ways of using their pda's.
Linux is not for geeks anymore.

The physical portal model of the PIC site allows easy expansion, that would be no problem. What is needed right now is an idea of what sort of info would have to be in version 1.0 and a routine to maintain it.
Am I going too fast, Ed?

Cheers,
Jan

I don't see how this is the fault of PalmSource. I use Documents2Go, and last I recall you must install software from their site (www.dataviz.com) to use the syncing software properly, not Palm. I just visited their site and they do in fact have a download for Mac (but no Linux). I don't know about the others, but I'm sure this is the case for most (at least I know it is for MGI Photosuite).

At least we have options, unlike the PPC where you will only be able to connect to Windows, and nothing else. (That is, unless there is a conduit that I'm unaware of which allows PPC's to be able to sync with Mac OS or Linux.)

Jim

MS is *breaking the law*, every hour of every day, and you blame Palm?

Wake up.

Ever visited a MS press conference?

I did. The MS employees are excluseviley and irrestistable charmy as BB in her best times. And helpfull like Alber Schweitzer.

Thats also fact - not fiction.

If you want to compete - you have to know (The Art of War) your enemy well, and not dream along...

Boris

From Palm's suit against MS.

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/mtc-00030613.htm

Microsoft has the ability and incentive to take
additional actions to forestall competition in the
handheld industry. Palm's products -- both the
software products it manufactures as an independent
software vendor ("ISV") and the hardware products it
manufactures as an independent hardware vendor ("IHV")
-- must be compatible with PCs and the software that
runs on them. Microsoft has a unique position as the
PC OS monopolist and also the dominant vendor of
related software products such as the Internet
Explorer browser, the Office productivity suite, the
Outlook e-mail and calendaring program, the Exchange
server software and the Visual Studio developer tools.
Palm's ability to offer innovative handheld solutions
to consumers is, in significant part, reliant on full
and timely interoperability with Microsoft's software
products. Absent compatibility, consumers will be
unable to obtain a fully functional handheld running
anything other than Microsoft software.

As noted above, Microsoft is already taking actions to
forestall competition in the mobile computing
industry. In particular:

1. Microsoft has refused Palm access to information
and software interfaces necessary to enable Palm to
make its products interoperable with certain Microsoft
products and technologies, including some elements of
Microsoft's .NET software;

2. Microsoft has prevented Palm from working with
Microsoft's software development tools (Microsoft
Visual Studio);

3. Microsoft has refused to make Microsoft Internet
Explorer operate on Palm OS handhelds; and

4. In exchange for addressing some of these issues,
Microsoft has attempted to coerce Palm into deploying
Microsoft .NET software on Palm handhelds under terms
that would put the Palm OS business at a prohibitive
disadvantage.

Microsoft has also already exhibited its intent to
foreclose companies such as Palm by breaking
interoperability with its products. Bill Gates himself
directed his staff to alter Microsoft products to
ensure that Microsoft's "PDA will connect to Office in
a better way than other PDAs even if that means
changing how we do flexible schema in Outlook and how
we tie some of our audio and video advanced work to
only run on our PDAs." (Remedy Exhibit GX1 attached to
this submission). As the DOJ argued previously:

... on July 11, 1999, less than thirty days after the
conclusion of the trial in this action, Bill Gates
wrote an e-mail directing that Microsoft redesign its
software in order to harm competitors. This time, the
products in question were the Personal Digital
Appliances that Microsoft heralded at trial as one of
the products that might someday undo its monopoly.

Plaintiffs' Memorandum In Support Of Proposed Final
Judgment, filed April 28, 2000 (corrected as of May 2,
2000) (citing Remedy Exhibit GX1). Microsoft's
anticompetitive incentive is obvious. Its
anticompetitive conduct will enable it to monopolize
the emerging handheld industry and, at the same time,
eliminate the threat handhelds pose to its PC OS
monopoly.

As delineated more fully below, it is Palm's belief
that the RPFJ, if adopted, would fail to protect
competition in the handheld industry for at least the
following reasons:

1. It does not appear even to attempt to address
handheld industry competition;

2. It enables Microsoft to withhold interface
information that is critical to the competitiveness of
Microsoft's rivals such as Palm;(4)

3. It enables Microsoft to continue to disadvantage
ISVs and IHVs that work with companies other than
Microsoft, especially given the network effects that
pervade this industry;

4. It fails to ensure that Microsoft will not use
distributed Internet-based (.NET) applications to
eradicate the competitive threat of non-Microsoft
platforms;

5. It either does not define or improperly defines key
terms of the RPFJ, thereby enabling Microsoft to
circumvent the RPFJ's intended boundaries;

6. It enables Microsoft to commingle or
technologically bundle its OS with other dominant
Microsoft software;

7. It enables Microsoft to use anticompetitive pricing
tactics such as bundled pricing;

8. It fails to provide OEMs with the freedom to
promote software products competing with Microsoft's
products;

9. The enforcement mechanisms of the RPFJ are too weak
to ensure Microsoft's compliance; and

10. It contains other deficiencies described below.

If the above RPFJ shortcomings are not addressed,
Microsoft will be able to dictate customer decisions
regarding computing models and standard technologies
for the indefinite future, rather than having those
decisions made by consumers on the competitive merits.
Competition, and the innovative solutions that emerge
from that competition, will suffer. Any settlement
with Microsoft must address these issues now, because,
as the industry has learned from the Internet browser
war, competition can be lost in the blink of an eye.
"

Please register yourself. Don't be afraid of the world, it's beautiful out here. No need to hide.

While it is probably true that in this leaflet you're mentioning the majority of products is not made by Microsoft, I am prepared to state that more than 90% of those products had to be made the way they are made because of Microsoft. And I guarantee I have never ever seen that booklet, there's an ocean between us ;-)

As mentioned in one of the other posts in this thread:
Microsoft dominates the desktop OS market and has used this monopoly to push out rivals in other areas.
Microsoft dominates the Office market. Microsoft has used its monopoly very effectively to kill off Netscape's browser after ignoring Internet first.
Microsoft has, in the past, changed perfectly working code to ensure that only Microsoft products would work together. That is one reason why different generations of Microsoft products often fail to work together or perform poorly at best. Bill has ordered to do it again.

Microsoft has even managed to change perfectly working HARDWARE by changing the rules. Ever heard of a WinModem? Hardware manufacturers follow Bill because they know there is no other option for them. Even though technically, it is absolute nonsense to remove fast cheap hardware from a modem and build it into the OS.

Microsoft is able to dictate other companies how to build their products.
If the product comes too close to a Microsoft product, it will get stabbed in the back. Ask Netscape.
Or simply taken over. Visio is now Microsoft. Or kept secret. Does any non Microsoft mail client know how to read mail from a hotmail account?

The point is: it doesn't matter if you're making hardware or software, Microsoft will use its monopoly to tell you what to do and how to do it. Because if you don't, the world's dominant OS won't work with your product, even if Microsoft has to change the code for it.

Cheers,
Jan

No PocketPC to palm converts here?

Very well, perhaps the happy converts -are- on the PocketPC forum.

(BTW: THAT would be what I would consider to be a "flame provoking" remark - consider it retracted. My original post may have been controversial, counter to the "conventional wisdom" on this board, or even an unpopular position. However, I did try to make the original post without such "baiting" of the reader.)

I won't be posting any more responses here, but if anyone wants to tell me why I'll be disappointed if I don't get an m515...well, I've stated my concerns.