Comments on: Mace to Testify Against Microsoft
Article Comments
(45 comments)
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.
Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.
RE: *Crunch*
Huh? I'm not sure if you are saying the Palm Desktop will stop working with Windows or Microsoft will change Windows to stop working with the Palm Desktop.
If it's the former, Palm will never deliberately stop working with the OS that's on about 90% of the world's desktops. If its the latter, Palm would have Microsoft in court so fast it will make your head spin. That falls under "Abuse of Monopoly" and is utterly against the law.
RE: *Crunch*
Go Linux! Go PalmSource! Go Sun! Go! GO! GO!
Bricka bracka firecracker sis boom baa! PalmSource! PalmSource! RA! RA! RA!
hehe ;-)
The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
What? Just let these companies do whatever they wish without fear of litigation? Nobody's software would run on Windows anymore *except* Microsoft's.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
Again, Microsoft isn't in trouble for having a monopoly.
One more time.....MICROSOFT ISN'T IN TROUBLE FOR HAVING A MONOPOLY.
They're under the gun for *UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES*.
When you employ *UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES*, the "Free market" doesn't have THE CHANCE to "decide" which product it likes best.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
People are forgetting (or don't realize) Microsoft isn't in trouble for having a Monopoly, per se, any more than Apple is under the gun for not supporting other OSes on their machines.
Microsoft is in trouble for evil and unfair business practices. Period.
It is NOT a free market. If you're an idiot consumer, then you truly DON'T UNDERSTAND how Windows got on PCs in the first place, but more importantly, how it STAYED THERE.
i.e. Microsoft saying to Compaq, "from now on, we'll only let you license our OS if you DON'T include a WordPerfect program in the included software bundle, etc, plus you MUST include Microsoft Word or Microsoft Office."
That wasn't a factual scenario, but a very GOOD representation of the complete and utter nonsense that Microsoft uses to FORCE their software on people.
It's one thing to have a "monopoly".
It's one thing to use "Exclusivity Clauses".
It's another thing to use both to eliminate free competition.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
M$ is in court not because it is a monopoly.
It is in court because what they did to become a monopoly.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
Most people agree that if you want to make a point, than actual facts would be somewhat better than the made up kind. (Personally, I would say, a -lot- better, but others are not so particular.)
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
To take the time to research EXACT examples would be a waste of time, when anyone of average intelligence can understand the point.
I urge YOU to research the examples of MSFT's bad business practices though, as they are certainly more evil and illegal than the examples given above.
Factual information
To summarize, IF you want Windows in your PC, then you MUST use Microsoft's booting software (NT's OS loader). BUT under the terms of the software agreement for the MS OS Loader, you may ONLY use NT Loader for specific operating systems (which are conveniently all Microsoft products) or you void the license for the OS Loader.
So, a PC maker CANNOT use alternative booting software to load windows, or they void their right to have Windows installed. A PC maker also CANNOT use Microsoft's NT Loader to load any other operating systems but Windows (or MS-DOS), or they lose their right to use the NT loader. So, the only way to have a non-MS OS (which is anything that isn't Windows-based) preinstalled is to completely void ALL rights to Microsoft OS'es on any computers you make. This automatically excludes you from ~90% of software and 99% of all Microsoft software. Now, can Dell, Compaq, etc. afford to lose almost all Microsoft software for all their systems? Can they afford to lose Office, Media Player, Internet Explorer, etc. on ALL their computers just to take a chance on Linux, QNX, BeOS, or a BSD?
This is unfair to any and all competition to MS, free or not, because it locks them out of one of the most profitable markets for any OS: installation on new computers. In a fair market, competitors are meant to COEXIST and compete on FAIR TERMS, which Microsoft does not allow.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
> It is in court because what they did to become a monopoly.
Well, not exactly. I don't think Microsoft did anything significantly wrong (though possibly immoral) to get their operating system monopoly. It's how they used their operating system monopoly to manipulate the market and gain dominance (and I suppose in some cases almost a monopoly) over or completely put out of business various third party software makers like WordPerfect, Lotus, Netscape and bunches of others that have them in court. In contrast, Palm has handled its 3rd party software makers in exactly the opposite fashon.
Despite being found guilty even after appeals, they still claim their innocence and still to some extent continue these practices. It really is quite disgusting as their practices have pretty much decimated the consumer software and operating systems industries over the past decade. Somehow in the same breath they still claim that their originally poorer quality copies of other individuals work was "innovation". The US government basically lets Microsoft steamroll its media propaganda over any judge that stands up to them.
I would have some sympathy if Microsoft could show some sign of being adult-like in this by implying admission to some guilt and by changing their practices, but their attitude and behaviour warrants throwing the book at them.
People who want to compare this case against Microsoft to Palm's dominance in the PDA OS market are COMPLETELY IGNORANT to the facts of this case and/or the business practices of these companies.
Microsoft's Abuse of Its Monopoly
Microsoft has taken steps to insure that handhelds that don't run Microsoft's Pocket PC OS are at a disadvantage when working with Microsoft Office and other products, even if that means deliberately changing the applications
In its comments on the proposed settlement, Palm referenced an email from Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates that ordered its developers to alter Microsoft products to ensure that Microsoft's "PDA will connect to Office in a better way than other PDAs even if that means changing how we do flexible schema in Outlook and how we tie some of our audio and video advanced work to only run on our PDAs." This email was written less than thirty days after the conclusion of the original trial in this case.
This is an example of exactly the uncompetitive activities the Sherman Anti-trust Act was designed to prevent. Handhelds running the PPC OS will work better than their competitors, not because they are designed better, but because Microsoft has a monopoly in desktop operating systems.
---
News Editor
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
I actually have quite a bit of experience with programming under and installing many different operating systems... especially with the issue of configuring and maintaining a consistently reliable or "known" system state at boot. Excluding about 10 op systems from the mainframe and minicomputer era, I start counting at the old "micropolis DOS operating system and include: CPM, DOS, AppleDos, UCSD Pascal, Microsoft DOS, and Windows (various flavors). (Passing aquaintance ith OS/2.)
Having started by toggling in bootstraps in binary, and current all the way up to "instant on" PocketPc's,
I am pretty qualified to speak as to what would be 'convenient' to the user and 'nice' for a manufacturer to do with operating systems. (I am always ready to upgrade to the most 'convenient'
and 'nice' technology. I am an 'early adopter' in that regard. Ditched the slide rule years ago. a TechnoLiberal. "Let the past go", I say. From JCL to Java!)
I think Microsoft's policy is reasonable, and the illegality is contrived. The biggest cause I've seen of corporate down-time is configuration management issues. If I were Microsoft, I couldn't support -one- user if I can't approach their problem from a known baseline system state. The business of supporting millions of users worldwide would be almost impossible.
If I want to 'experiment" with some other operating system, I find it 'convenient' to put it clean on another volume and hit -that- volume with a boot instruction. I don't touch the windows boot loader.
If people were realy willing to pay for systems with 2 or more OS on a system, the problem of booting the desired volume could be solved by a PC maker. (Sure, I know that would cost more than you 'think' it should cost, but 'old coots' 'think' gas should be a nickel and a haircut 25 cents.)
Pet peeve: consumer pc's filled with space wasting 'lite' software trash promos that do heaven-knows-what to a solid baseline configuration of ANY factory fresh OS distribution. SOLUTION: reimage.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
>"If I were Microsoft, I couldn't support -one- user if I can't approach their problem from a known baseline system state. "
What support? yr kidding right? I have never (NEVER) met one -person who actually solved a windows problem by getting support from MS. This is crap.
>"If I want to 'experiment" with some other operating system, I find it 'convenient' to put it clean on another volume and hit -that- volume with a boot instruction. I don't touch the windows boot loader."
Clearly you missed the point and should re-read the above thread to understand what we are all talking about here. 99% if PC users are not going to know how to use this (which, as an 'advanced user', you know all too well - but hey that serves you just fine because it allows you to feel smug and to reel off yr creds in threads like this where its completely irrelevant to the argument.
BTW - i too have many an OS under my belt (since commodore PET) BUT i know that the average user does not and shouldn't have to, in order to choose something other then Windows.
So, if you have a rebuttal - then rebut this: Explain why it is fair (and legal) that consumers can't get PC's with other operating systems AND have the ability to run the software the rest of the world runs as well?
Guess you don't think we should - and by extension - NEVER should.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
them from having Pocket PC or later Linux handelds. I've seen that most places have both once MS started having it.
Also, since Palm has avoided having the kitchen sink in their operating system it has promoted 3rd parties versus
taking away their business as MS has done. Look at whay MS did to Sybase. They made a joint agreement so MS
could get their intelectual property and then dumped them. Now, it's annother MS 'innovation'. Another 'innovation'
was buying the co. that made Internet Explorer.
Also, many think that the original Palm people were coming up with Grafitti before Xerox, but just didn't apply for a patent.
So, it wasn't that they looked at the Xerox patent and stole it. Often people come with the same idea at different times.
Also, I agree with Palm, Grafitti is just writting. How can Xerox patent an alphabet? Many of these patents are just B.S.
Why doesn't the Apple Newton have the patent for writting on a screen? When didn't Xerox sue both Palm and MS?
Perhaps because MS is a monopoly that could hurt them?
THere have been security fixes for MS that have caused problems with Palm syncing with Outlook. I bet none of these
were released without making sure they worked wtih Windows CE/Pocket PC.
I would like the 'freedom' to use MS products on Linux, but it's not going to happen because MS is one big company
and the Office people don't want to hurt the OS monopoly. I think that it should be split up.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
RE: The PalmOS is a monopoly too.
1: the tactics they employ to gain monopoly
2: using their monopoly power to destroy competing products
3: turning Compaq, HP, DELL into a Microsoft 'subsidary'
Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
Mace prompted me to check out the alternatives to Palm. I had not really looked at alternatives/WinCE in five years.
After intensive research, I have concluded that every 'technology' reason I may have had to stay with Palm is GONE. (I don't count "We've GOT to -stop- Microsoft" as a reason.) My next handheld is an HP 568.
Any comments from PocketPC 2000/2002 -users- who agree with Mace and are happily "upgrading" to a Palm OS?
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
No, that's not what's happening at all.
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
The screens on the PPC devices are really solid, not too concerned about battery life since mine spends 80% of it's time in the cradle.
One thing palm has going for it, especially now, is price. The m130 is at a real sweet spot especially if they could manage to knock it down $30 or so to the $250 benchmark. At those prices you start to see demand really pick up, and it's the factor that led me to choose Palm and the m130. I want to be able to lose, drop etc my handheld without it being the end of the world. PPC devices are still in the $400-$600 range.
Anyways, wish the people who always are yelling troll troll, reboot-reboot or making one line comments with absolutly no insight or info would go away. Wish we could moderate them into oblivian.
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
One nice touch of the 3x, was, in recognition of the need to reboot - an appropriate "pin" was available under the screw-on cap of the stylus.
PPC may reboot more often, but Palm is not reboot-free. I had fewest reboots with Palm with the native basic 4 apps.
I suspect that the PPC users who use the ROM based apps have fewer reboots, and the wild and wooly types who download -everything- to try at least once (ok. me) will have more reboots.
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
1. The OS. MS goofed the first versions of their handheld OS and it wasn't until they made it 'Palm enough' w/PocketPC, that it started to catch on with consumers. Even so, there are a couple of horrible design mistakes in this OS. Namely (and i never hear enough about this stupid mistake - are you Palm fanatics asleep?) MS encouraged developers to follow their model and NOT put an exit button in apps!! Thus, when you switch to another app, you've still got the previous apps running in the background!! This wouldnt be bad except (and remember things are supposed to have a simpler interface on a PDA) to close the app you must tap START>SETTINGS>SYSTEM>MEMORY>RUNNING PROGRAMS> then select the app, the tap STOP. No Palm users - i'm not kidding, they actually did this!!!! I know that Palm apps dont usually have exit buttons either - you just switch to another app. But on the Palm, the previous app doesnt keep running in the background (in fact it cant because theres no multi-tasking:)). MS hasnt been slagged enough for this!!! They realized the stupidity of this and so they changed it in PPC 2002 with a crude work around:now all apps (whether they had an exit button or not)have an exit/minimize button forced on them. This means that this button MAY exit the app or MAY simply minimize it. I realize im running on a bit here - but this needed to be said!!It completely baffles me how they did something thats so obviously and completely stupid and counter intuitive. do they test this stuff?
2. Battery. Not important for some but is for me cause i take my PDA everywhere and i never remember to dock it unless im installing software. The Palm goes for weeks - the PPC goes for a couple of days.
3. Surprisingly (to me), the biggest factor of all turns out to be size/form factor. I love (even with above listed problems) the PPC. It's un-necesarily confusing and silly OS aside, it such a great machine. BUT - i never take it with me because its (and im really talking about ALL PocketPCs here) just to damn bulky!! The Palm V form factor (used in the V,Vx,m500,m505 and m515) is perfection. PDAs should not be any larger OR smaller. It really is perfect. fits in my pocket and i really dont know its there. I've used (and continue to use)all the others (including Ipaq) and the fact is
it's just to cumbersome to carry with me everywhere.
I know some dont mind. but i hate carrying around tons of gadgets. So to the guy who started this thread who wants the HP: If you are the kind that ussually lugs lots of gadgets around - then go for it. If not (and you may look at the HP and think that its not much bigger but...) then stick with Palm. PPC is great - but in the end, its important that you actually USE the device you just shelled out hundreds for. my 2 cents (ok - my 98 cents).
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
> reboot issue.
No you didn't I STARTED the thread! you imposter!
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
Gordon from Edinburgh
*A Palm a day helps you work, rest and play*
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
---------
Just another reminder of the advantages of registering so you can prove who said what. I can say I'm you then put any words I want in your mouth.
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
Kept the focus on WHAT was said, WHAT to believe instead of WHO to believe.
"They must work for Microsoft" or "they must work for Palm" makes the discussion about evaluating motives and not about evaluating facts. (Anybody want to name that logical fallacy?)
Your METHODS of thought and arguementation, and not your motives (pure or not) help me to judge the validity of what you say.
If anyone has something useful to contribute to a public discussion, I'm not interested in their motives. How you feel about the facts doesn't change the facts.
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
Or you could go into memory managment and close the programs?
RE: Mace inspired my switch to an HP Jornada 568
PalmOS vs Windows CE 3.0 PPC 2002
- can't not compare directly. I presonally prefer PalmOS because it's easier to use and both me and my girlfriend got used to the GUI in 2 minutes. PPC is 'nice' to look at but I get lost most of the time. Both are proprietery OSes but PalmOS has more flexibility in customisation by licensees. PPC makers have to follow HM Bill Gates every desire. I also can't help noticing how PPC is copying Palm's GUI...
Dragonball VZ 33Mhz (now 66Mhz) - ARM 206Mhz
- can't compare directly because of different OSes and because different processors work differently. ARM numbers are misleading. Bigger Mhz does not mean faster. It is faster than a VZ processor but not in term of percentage. It's like comparing a PowerPC processor to an Intel P4 (which is slower than a PIII in same Mhz). PalmOS move to ARM based processors is a good move.
8Mb/16Mb vs 32Mb/64Mb
- 16Mb might sound less, but ever since Palm started supporting expansion cards, this is not an issue. As a N770 user, 8Mb is enough for me, but 64Mb is nice.
Audio
- no question, PPC wins although Clie wins in headphone mode.
Video
- PPC wins but just that. Video is not an issue for me atleast until both Palm and PPC devices has 20Gb Harddisk built into them so I can load my DivX films onto them. Do you want to watch The Lord of the Rings or Star Wars on your 3.5" screen or your 40" plasma screen?
Games
I can't deny I use my Palm as a gaming platform 50% of the time. Siberian Strike, Zap 2016 etc etc. PPC works best in games, but really I can only compare 2D arcade style games. 3D games is not a must have for me. I rather play Medal of Honour on my spanking AthlonXP & Radeon 8500 PC.
Battery life
Palm wins but barely. PPC is cathing up pretty quickly and I can't help thinking that moving to an ARM CPU running at 200-300Mhz will help Palm's cause.
Networking
PPC wins. With loads of WiFi CF cards everywhere it is so easy to log into a local network.
Conclusion: Both Palm and PPC has positive and negative aspect. As a Palm user who hates everything Microsoft, my conclusion might seem biased, but there you go. Whatever platform, whether you go for a Mercedez Benz (PalmOS) or a Ford (PPC), it's just up to you.
Bulls, Bears & Pigs
I'm not sure how anti-competitive developing a set of desktop and handheld applications that work together is. Is it anti-competitive for Billy to say "I want to build the best damn handheld computer there is." Or, "I want our handheld to work better with out other products than anyone elses."
That sounds like more of a challenge to Palm and the other handheld platforms than a big old brick wall.
I have no particular love or hate for Microsoft. I respect what Bill, Steve and the rest of the boys have built. If there was something better out there, then why aren't we using it? Because, it's not there!
On the PDA side, Palm has a marketshare advantage for now. Could Microsoft make a case that Palm is purposely building cheap units with it's licensees to undercut the PPC product line? I mean, how much is the real cost difference between an m100 and an m500? A little metal, a slightly larger screen and a few more meg of memory doesn't cost that much! Look at the numbers, if you back out the sub $250 Palm's, Palm and the MS PPC licensees have virtually the same marketshare.
I believe that business is business, there is no such thing as fair and if you don't carve out your own niche, you don't deserve it. If there is a better product out there, I want the right to use it without some Attorney General of some state mucking-up the process in the name of "fairness".
Mike Lohsl
Palm & ACT! Advisor
RE: Bulls, Bears & Pigs
The anti-trust laws exist for a reason. They should be enforced, regardless of how influential the culprits.
RE: Bulls, Bears & Pigs
RE: Bulls, Bears & Pigs
The reality of course is that neither side is blind, but it is true that both camps have different outlook on what it means to compete in a capitalist free market.
Some like SuccWiz say that the idea represented in "I want our handheld to work better with out other products than anyone else" is a challenge rather than a hinderance of trade. The gasoline hits the fire when we suspect that Microsoft is trying to fulfill its mission (making PPC work better with MS products) by changing the MS product to suit the handheld. Such a strategy would mean that consumers wouldnt have two products to work with, each with its own way of interfacing with MS Office or Outlook, leaving the consumer to choose which handheld best suits his or her needs. Such a strategy would indeed be a brick wall.
If we can agree that what makes any marketplace succesfull is the dynamism generated by many different products competing against each other, for the attentions of consumers. With this agreement in mind, we must see as damaging to all consumers, any attempt to weed out from the marketplace some of the competitors in an effort to let Microsoft grow unchallenged.
RE: Bulls, Bears & Pigs
>"PDA will connect to Office in a better way than other PDAs even if that means changing how we do flexible schema in Outlook and how we tie some of our audio and video advanced work to only run on our PDAs."
the key bit being : "...to only run on our PDAs."
This isnt about PPC working better with Outlook cause they made it better. This is deliberately sabataging Palms connectivety/synchronization code by changing the desktop could for NO OTHER REASON then to lock out Palm. And that - by all american legal definition - is called "unfair business practices".
Psst ... Ed
Mace will get destroyed on the cross-examination
Gates will get destroyed on the cross-examination
Latest Comments
- I got one -Tuckermaclain
- RE: Don't we have this already? -Tuckermaclain
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -richf
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -dmitrygr
- Palm phone on HDblog -palmato
- Palm PVG100 -hgoldner
- RE: Like Deja Vu -PacManFoo
- Like Deja Vu -T_W
*Crunch*
after this, I bet no palm OS 5.0 will work with any Windows OS.