Comments on: Sony Introduces Two Models with Keyboards, MP3 Players

The same as US's T-series

I posted the incorrect comment saying that the new models from Sony were only supposed to be phones not Palms. I am glad I was wrong!!!

THIS IS THE WAY ALL PALMS SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND WILL BE!

(Kinda like the Linux based Yopy…)

Now weez gonna have sum real fun!!!

Well, Handspring is on the way out and I think this put s a stake through Handera pretty much. Maybe Palm should start making PocketPC's..

If the news is not from this web site, I would
probably say this is fake. :-)

Unbelievable. Sony do a great job again.

These new Palms are no more organizers. They are a hybrid between a digital camera, a notebook and a Palm.
I would not like to carry one of these on my belt...

I would rather have a faster internet connection over my mobile phone than a larger screen and a camera !

Anything else?
I shouldn't think so.

WOW

Cheers,
Jan

Why is it not an organizer, you can always buy the one with no camera, and yeah there are many ppl buying PDA, and not all of them are like you, some people like to pay a little bit more ($0 - $100) more for a device with more functions. e.g. have mp3 play back capability, with a built-in keyboard.

It's as good as an organizer as any palm PDA out there, if not better considering it has virtual grafitti. Anyways Sony always emphasis on multimedia so putting in a bigger screen with virtual grafitti , faster CPU , camera and mp3 player is just the natural way to go.

I'd love to carry one of these on my belt, why ?? because it's right about as big as the M525 and has more capability.

A mobile will get you the same speed a 56 K will provide. This is too slow for most needs.

2. I really see only a very small niche for these palms. There will be even more software problems than with the older Sony hirez screens.

3. I would buy one with an ARM processor and Palm OS 5, UMTS connection built-in.

As to the poster saying he wouldn't use it. That's fine. The product isn't for you. Just like a Lexus isn't for some while a Neon is. Personally I'd go with the Lexus, just like I am considering when (ever ) this one arrives in Europe. Of course by the time it gets here Arm based machines will b just around the corner... maybe its worth waiting after all?

There are basically 2 types of applications, those that takes advantage of the big softgrafitti screen, probably most of those are written and maintained by sony, so they should know how to clean up their own mess. And those that doesnt take advantage of the big screen, for those apps, the grafitti area will always be visible.

anyways it's not like this device will be running OS 5, so there should be no OS 5 migration compatibility problems too.

All the bells and whistles just distract users from the overall purpose - to organize your life, not to waste more time!

Don't be an fool, remember that Palm makes the OS, if it weren't for Palm we would not have our Clies.

-----------------------------
I love my Clie, and I love Palm. Do you?

Yen/US$ = 128.6

W/Camera - Y 59,800 = $ 465
W/o Camera - Y 49,800 = $ 387

This is Japan. Prices in the US (if they ever get there, or should I say WHEN) should be closer to 499 and 399.

Nicer picture and more info here in Japanese!

Dragonball SuperVZ�i66MHz�j
320�~480dots�A65,536 Color
1 Megapixel Camera

PEGA-MSB1 Memory Stick Bluetooth

HandEra's screen API was completely different, and separated the current resolution from the API functions, making it more elaborate but also more flexible.

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This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

>HandEra's screen API was completely different, and separated the current resolution from the API functions, making it more elaborate but also more flexible."

I've done development with the sony hi-res API and its a snap. An app that i just did detects if its a Sony w/hi-res and then uses the hi-res functions - which are identical to the Palm API functions except the name of each function has a 'HR' prefixed to the function name - virtually a mirror of every Palm OS graphics function. Any x and y paremeters must of course change to reflect 320 x 320, but that is all - nothing new for Palm programmers to learn in order to implement. I dont see how you could beat this. You could come up with a more flexible open ended approach that deals with different resolutions (which i expect is what we'll see in PalmOS 5.0) but for now, the Sony approach has been elegant, easy, no compatibility problems.

As long as you only ever use it on a 320x320 display. I'd call that unelegant and ripe for future compatability problems.

I guess it doesn't matter to you, all you care is Sony is using something not standard in Palm OS, so you could go on some online forum and post it for 100 times.

No I don't agree with you :P There is not other better ways to do this right now, sony wants higher res for photo and stuff like that, so they made a new API just for their high res, and so happen the function call of those high res is basically the same as the old Low res.

example:
Low Res:
DrawScreen(a,b,c)
High Res:
HRDrawScreen(a,b,c)

How hard would it be for Sony to redirect their High Res Function calls back to low res function call when palm OS 5 comes out? very easy, they always take the same parameter of data.

but when yer using the on screen keyboad, that would "substitute" the graffiti area, but that's the jap version, dunno what would happen when they ship them to us...

http://www.palmoslove.com/work/feature/nr70/nr70-19b.jpg

But the worst 'hack' of the OS comes from PalmSource itself: Palm OS 4.0. The 'money people' at Palm decided that, although $$ could be made by charging users of older machines for this upgrade, they knew that m5xx users wouldn't shell $40 just to fix bugs in the device they just bought. They also new that - with a price war going between them, Handspring and Sony - that profit margins were tight so they weren't about to make the upgrade free to m5xx users.

Their solution? Tell everybody that '4.1 is just for older devices - m5xx users dont need this cause its the same'. They blatantly mislead everybody in an attempt to save $$$ and the result is that users get screwed with software that craps out and developers get screwed with the blame and responsibility (and cost - it took me 2 wks to work around OS 4.0 bugs) of finding work-arounds.

Sony 'hacked' the OS??? Please!!!

PS - The above can be verified as fact by any member of Palms Dev program - there is a ROM file called 'paltform41_m505enUS.rom' (it may still be on their sit - im not sure)that confirms that they originally planned to release 4.1 for m505 users (this is the only Palm rom file i know of where this has happened), before the PalmSource management decided not to release this in order to save money. I love Palm OS and will continue to develop for it - but screw whatever idiot at PalmSource was responsible for this - YOU COST MY COMPANY $$$$$$!!!!!!

There was no need to make a new API. You should look at how HandEra implemented this. They just use the standard Palm OS APIs for hi-res graphics. There is a resource you set to specify that the app can handle hi-res (otherwise it runs in the user specifed compatibility mode). Once that hi-res resource is set, you just use the standard Palm APIs to access the hi-res screen.

I haven't looked at the handspring SDK. How does this work if you wish to uses both standard and hi-res at the same time?? With the Sony API, this is easy. And yes - somtimes you do wish to use both - keeping with standard for basic lines and interface element and only going to hi-res where the detail would be noticeable to Clie users.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J19C3238

Thanks

Marco Schouten.

New Sony is really a jewel (err... how to write? ;]P).
However it will take a lot of time to reach here (where "here" is <>japan).
Since I need a nice handheld now I'll buy a 515 that's almost half weight.
Yes, there's not comparison between these two, Palm one is lower; if I have to choose now, in a shop, I'd buy Sony but at the moment here in italy there's 515 (well, bad Sony strategy still didn't bring here any model!).

Good work to Sony, anyway... :]

altought my next purchase will be a Clie T615 (I don't need a keboard or 320x480 screen), I really praise Sony for their new models. This expands the Palm OS in to different markets.

Something I would like to clarify is that PalmSource mentioned they wanted the OS to run on different kinds of hardware. Whith models like these the Palm OS is expanding for differnt kinds of users, there are models for every need from simple organizers to multimedia devices.

With the Pocket PC there are just bulky and multimedia devices, with Palm OS you have a choice.

Also the figh between Sony fans and Palm fans should stop. There is no better models only models suited for different uses.

-G

It is all too likely that the first few batches will have all kinds of disappointing glitches. Just sit back and wait a little while. "Be cool, dude. Be cool."

But then again, this sure looks sweet.

O well maybe both palm and sony are cooperating to brainwash everybody. I am so scared.

Palm please brainwash me like sony did anytime you like.

Thanks for your info.

But I think I'll wait to see the real thing before saying ut'll fall apart. I think sony made some even more complicated gadgets than this before, so falling apart should not be an issue.

The camera is attached to the keyboard directly, so basically there are 2 parts

first part:
Screen

second part:
MS Slot
Camera
keyboard

First part and second part are attached together with a hinge that flips for about 180 degrees.

I agree that is seems like an awful lot of moving parts that could break. Sony isn't know for their helpfulness when this sort of thing happens.

My Sony camcorder has an LCD screen with a hinge that folds out for viewing by the operator. The screen also swivels 180 degrees for viewing by those being recorded. Sony has sold an awful lot of camcorders and seems to have the hinge and swivel thing worked out.

I think it's important to keep perspective here. $385 is based on conversion from Yen. It is NOT the "US$ Price." Electronics are generally cheaper in Japan than they'll be in the US when introduced. Combine that with the price drop on the N760, and it looks like the NR70 should release in the US at about $450, with the NR70V at either $500 or $550. What's more, the m515 will likely drop in price to, say, $350. So there will likely be devices for EVERY taste at many price points. Variety is the benefit of capitalism.

But, naturally, some idiot sees the new Sony as an opportunity to slam Palm. Perhaps you should read the above thread that states that 1) these new models are VERY impressive, 2) they WON'T be the device for EVERYONE, and 3) the whole "Palm vs. Sony" controversy should end. Or perhaps you should read the article on Brighthand, which says essentially the SAME THING.

Like I say, let's keep some perspective here...

Ok, till now I was more than happy with my M505 and none of the Sony Clie models would do it for me, also due to the Memorystick question...but, I think it is about time to seriously re-think my 'strategy' now.

Luckily, I live in Asia and getting one should be no more than 2 weeks.... I might just go for it.

Sometimes, PR people are the last to find out about new release plans (I know, my ex-gf's did PR for Palm); because they're the first leak liability.

They may have lied to you to throw you off the scent. But my guess is they were just the messenger; they genuinely were ignorant of the real plan and carrying the company message passed on to them by management in Japan. This is specially likely because Japanese corporations sometimes treat their foreign subsidiaries like competition and the latter is kept in the dark till the last minute - when the master plan has been finalised at global HQ (I've dealt with Nintendo's European PR before and they generally do not have a clue about anything).

Masanobu Yoshida said the one he's holding is a nonfunctional prototype, does that mean he doesnt have one in his pocket that's totally functional ?? :P

The funny part about this is the head of Sony's U.S. Clié PR team will almost certainly read this and probably give me a call about it.

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News Editor

The DraagonBall Super VZ is running at 66 MHz

and of course, this is THEIR PRODUCT and this is THIER company, they have the right to keep away anything on commercial basis. if these things are leacked, do u think we'll be crazy about it rite now? i luv **reasonable** surprises, what about u?

- Eugene

besides, there is no way they could put a backligh @ such thinness

Definitely NOT too thick as has been mentioned around here already !

Sony lists the same weight for both versions.

> No Jog Dial?

Both have a Jog Dial and a back button.

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News Editor

The jogdial :)

Whilst I saw it in the pics, I didn't in the text I was looking up so I forgot to list it. Sorry!

The NRV70V is for the Japanese market, so they usually have more flash mem for their characters (kanji), (I read somewhere that they include a dictionary).

http://www.sony.co.jp/sd/products/Consumer/PEG/PEG-NR70V/feat_wireless.html

The Clie on the right is the one with the BlueTooth Stick installed. Nothing sticks out in the picture.

Also the hinge never ever flips for more than 180 (maybe 160) degrees, that's why the screen can be rotated too.

I'm sorry but no. Look at the writing on the upper left of the page. The one on the right has the PEGA-CF70 module attached to it. That's the CF adapter that is available only in Japan that is used to connect to Japan's wireless networks.

Before you go getting all excited, this module does not work with CF memory cards, just the wireless networking one, and Sony doesn't plan to release it outside of Japan anyway.

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News Editor

http://www.sony.co.jp/sd/products/Consumer/PEG/PEG-NR70V/parts.html

It does look like there is enough room for the memory stick to insert into the keyboard flap.

Obvious, no?

Why did sony not put the whole bluetooth module in the slot, becasue Sony wants to let you see the MS module. if it's in the slot how do you know it's even there...

it would be really stupid for sony to not let MS to fit totally into the slot because that would easily break the MS.

Sony confused me and I think I confused a lot of other people. Take some confusion and pass it along, that's my new motto.

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News Editor

http://www.palm.com/images/products/handhelds/thbnail_m515_sm.gif

Go to this URL... and look at the Bluetooth picture, see the little light on it that's lite up when it's inside the NR70??? it DOES Stick out!

http://www.clieclub.jp/clie_exbit/pages/nr086_jpg.htm

For other NR70 pictures, (REAL LIFE PICTURES) not "model" pictures go here:
http://www.clieclub.jp/clie_exbit/index.html

If you look at that picture of the Bluetooth, you can see that the top part is a little bit thicker than the rest that goes inside the slot, so it's made like that... I guess just like the BlueTooth SD module for the m500/505/515/m1xx whatever, those stick out too.

Damn pity the InfoStick doesn't fit entirely inside the device - but at least it's coming out now.

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russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

And.. I just lost my password...

At 16.7 (D) mm the unit seems to be about as thick or thin (take your pick) as the M50x series with the standard leather cover.

Definitely NOT too thick unless you like to use your M50x without the cover...!

Faster CPU, MP3, soft graffiti, more Flash, recording etc.

Here's what I think the next version should be: same as this version, but no clamshell, no keyboard, same overall size, screen positioned toward the top of the device. That would leave space for a slightly larger battery (wouldn't it?).

Clie needs to appeal to first time users and this certainly has the "Wow factor" to do that.

I think (as an M505 owner) that this device is the one to woo people who would not have thought of buying a PDA. Kudos to Sony, I think this is great. Just wish Palm would produce a "wow-factor" device to compete......

mrscarey

palmist and visionary

I've never seen an ARM based thin form factor PDA yet, and none of those color PDA out there with ARM processors has "Long" Battery life.

A Newton using a 200MHz ARM CPU has a battery life of about 8-9 hours contious use. It doesnt have a color screen and 8-9 hours is counted with backlit off, so I'd expect a color screen PDA with ARM cpu will have a battery life of about 3 hours.

I would also agree that they're looking to grab more PPC market share with this device. Good to see the platform begin to branch out though. With OS5 around the corner, I think this is only the beginning.

Just because there haven't been any doesn't mean there won't be any. The primary reason the developers of the Palm OS passed on ARM chips all those years ago was the performance-to-power ratio wasn't very good. But a lot of progress has been made over the years. The processors coming out now based on ARM's designs have a much better ratio. Intel's just announced ARM-based XScale processors use less than half the power of their current StrongARM SA-1110 one. They can do things like scale the performance as high or low as necessary in a single clock cycle. That's why Palm/PalmSource have decided that now is the time to move to the new processors. Using them before now would have been a mistake but they are finally ready to be the heart of handhelds that are both powerful and run for a long time without being weighed down with large batteries.

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News Editor

The Zaurus is big (similar in size to these Sony's), and has a built-in keyboard that can be accessed by sliding down part of the front of the PDA, to reveal the keyboard hidden underneath. They had Hi-Res before Sony, and Hi-Res is an absolute no-questions asked must in the Japanese (and other Chinese font) markets. As a result of this, and other issues (such as the keyboard maybe) the Zaurus does some pretty kick ass sales in Japan as I understand it.

Sony has just upped the ante by taking the same functionalities of the Zaurus and moving them to the next step. I do hope that these will be marketed outside of Japan at some point soon, even though the Zauruses never were.....

I just want a Palm OS based, high-res, color, on-board (and high-speed) wireless device, that's still fits in my pocket (though I'm willing to wait until battery power justifies it). Basically a high-res, 3G i705.

The traditional line of Zaurus is a bit bigger, more like a tablet device (nearly as big as newton MP 2100)

The Zaurus you see running linux is a newer Zaurus, I am not sure if they have dropped the old OS for linux or they are going to keep going with both but the Zaurus you guys see on the market now (kinda) is the same as the Zaurus Linux version they sell in Japan. Of course with all the japanese words translates back to english.

Zaurus is expected to release MI-E25DC with built-in camera. Built-in camera is very popular in Japan started with J-Phone's 'shameiru' - email attached with picture taken with the built-in camera in cell phone.

For those who worry that there are too many moving parts, worry not, the clamshell phones are very popular here and the quality is very good. Almost all the new feature-packed cell phones are foldable/clamsheel type. The Japanese manufacturers are very good with it. Most of us have clamshell cell phones and I have not heard anyone complains (including myself - used it for more than 1.5 years). For example ALL the FOMA (3G) phones are clamshell type.

- Eugene

These new models have nothing to do with competition with other Palm OS devices. The only thing Sony cares about ultimately is the Japanese market (same philosophy as its audio, laptop, video, hi-fi, game console etc. divisions). And in Japan, there is only one PDA to beat: the Zaurus.

The NR series is a direct shot at the big Z in Japan, not the big P in the USA. Of course, a side-effect of this is that we (elsewhere in the world) get to benefit from Sony's commitment to innovating over its home competition.

Here's some pics of the Zaurus models:
http://ezaurus.com/product/index.html

Spot the similarities between the NR and the Zaurus?

The Motorola ARM-based Dragonball is the same physical size at the VZ. I think many of the TI ARM-based chips are even lower power. Almost all of the ARM chips have a much higher MIPS/milliWatt rating, so at the same performance level, they will consume less power. The Newton was a battery hog because they needed to run the CPU full tilt even to do hw recognition badly. OTOH, most Palm apps leave the CPU idling. A higher MIPS CPU can spend even more time idling. Most of the battery power will then be consumed by the backlight... just like now.

If you are that concern about "gaming" then buy a freaking game-boy. Leave the grown-up toys to the grown-up.

looking at the side picture, it's impossible to flip the screen all the way back!! ... and looking at it more closely, you flip the screen open like a cell phone, then you swivel (spin/turn) the screen 180 degrees and then you close the flip.....