Comments on: Additional Details on the New Sony NR Series

On the semi serious side, I will stick with the M515. One reason: size. I carry the thing everywhere. I figure the more I carry it, the more I will use it. the M series (and V series) has held up for me in the worst environments literally around the world (several times at that).
I have never listened to an MP3, so I would look at a version with out that stuff inside. (It may be smaller also.)
The big thing is I bet this is so proprietary that when OS5 comes out there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when it is not supported on these things (things = NR series).
Sony does seem to be making a serious move on the consumer side of the house... But I could see where corporations would pull their hair out with the swift changes in the Sonys.

Higgy

15 minutes on the "shiatsu" setting will cook a 4oz beef patty to medium rare.

:P

Thanks for your info. really seriously which part of the device is proprietary, I only know sony changed the screen resolution that's about all the things they changed.

When OS 5 comes out this will be proprietary as any palm OS Device running draball VZ processors.

Duh! OS5 won't be supported on any current Palms! It's for new CPU! No current Palm will ever run OS5.

Err... that's the point of OS5, actually.

I guess they hand an agreement to not make phone on their own, but you can wish for a phone MS Module though.

One of the cooler solutions would be a combination of the Infostick Bluetooth MS and a GPRS and Bluetooth-equipped cell phone.

There are a number of phones that would work for this available now (Ericsson T39, T68, Nokia 6210, 6310) and many more coming later this year (Nokia 6310i; 7650, 8910; Sony-Ericsson T61g, T68i, Z700).

I just hope that the next lineup of Clies has integrated Bluetooth!

The camera built-in doesnt even have a flash light so it's not intend for any serious photography, basically it's like a snapshot device.

Check how many comments were made on the initial article? No interest? Check the CLIE forums... No interest? I don't know what the hell you are talking about!

Now if Sony lost the camera, keyboard and just made it a 66mhz PalmOS with MP3, (The T750 we thought they were going to release) that may sell in the US.

No, people won't buy this instead of a digital camera; or try to save the number of gadgets they will get; that's not the point. It is very cool, and US users are obsessed with anything with a flip design :-)

As for the keyboard, I think normal users will LOVE the keyboard and also attract new users.

Maybe... this device won't be released outside of Japan? (unlikely IMNSHO, but...)

hgfhfhfhfhfhfh ''fsdfdksj

Puhh-leeze!! This beats the crap out of anything out there so far, camera or no camera. Treat the camera as a gimmicky bonus. It's the best PDA period anyway! And it's only US$436 judging by yen prices. Price-for-feature there is no reason to get anything else unless you are strictly low-end (m105 budget).

Now think logically: why would you choose ANYTHING else over this? US sales will NOT disappoint. I'll wager you anything you want.

Analyze it with any other consumer electronic device, say, Walkmans. Let's say Sony releases a new Walkman that completely eclipses its older models with superior features, yet doesn't price it at a substantially higher differential. OF COURSE this is going to cannibalize sales from everyone else, including older Sony Walkmans, due to the technological leap combined with value-for-money.

It's simply logical.

Wait and see I will!

If Sony were to release such a Walkman, then it's likely the OTHER models would decrease in price to offset the disparity. I would think other PalmOS PDAs will decrease in price if, indeed, the NR-70/70V are released in the US at such prices.

I disagree with the initial post that US sales would prove disappointing. However, I think both of the previous posts in this thread have valid points. So why the argument?

don't make the world laugh. if that thing can play QuakeII, than maybe we can talk. (That beside the lack of FC port. ie. LAN/modem/Wifi.) Still having trouble doing web? or office compatibility?

It's a nifty gimicky toy, albeit well designed.

to leap frog mean it has to have more power than PX250, 8-10 hrs of battery, and in smaller than LOOX or Asus production model, all with standart ports. (mini USB, CF, SD)

This Clie is using motorola DB embedded processor, with very out dated OS. This is not leap frog, this is severaly behind. It's a clever hack that's about it.

Please...go somewhere else, troll.

That's why nobody ever ask, "yeah but does it do black and white text file". Sorry to burst your bubble.

M515 = $499
iPAQ 3765 = $549 ($50 rebate program from Compaq is still on)

look who is ripping of with good old 33mHz machine from the day of PalmIIIx?

"leapfrog": probably not.

"leg up" yes. Sony has set a new standard that others must follow now or build upon. This is running the current version of Palm's OS (not an outdated version) at a faster speed than anything else since Ipaq's don't outperform Palm's even with higher processors. When OS5 comes out, they'll introduce a new model that runs it. Pretty simple.

A built-in keyboard stands to attract many more new customers than any other innovation. A cell phone will mostly server to convert existing customers only.

The m505 has the memory expansion BUILT IN !! The same with m515. The battery lasts 3 days not 6 hours.

how about a real expansion like CF? so maybe we can do GPS while inserting WiFI card.

3 dayss? is that "normal usage"? with that criteria, my car can keep gass for 2 yrs without refill, provided it's under "nomral usage". Drive it out of the garage and back in. Get real OK, m505 don't last 3 days under the PPC battery definition. (ie. continuous use)

Plus what can you do with 5 hrs continuous on in Palm? it got no interesting game, can't play mp3, can't do movie, nor drive networking card. maybe you can tap your appointment for 3 continuous hrs and consider it "Zen" game. Well so much for advance PDA.

"The ultra-slim, lightweight PDA will be powered by a high-performance Intel® PXA250 applications processor with 32MB ROM and 64MB RAM storage capacity."

"Through the integration of a Compact Flash (CF) Type II card slot and Secure Digital (SD) memory slot,..."

"Weighing 5.9 ounces and measuring 5.15 inches wide by 3.2 inches deep and 0.7 inches high, Fujitsu's Pocket LOOX will be a powerful combination of high-end PDA and a modular connectivity concept. With a Lithium-Polymer battery users can anticipate up to 15 hours² of working time. A second battery plug-on module is targeted to provide up to 24 hours² of working time."

http://www.fujitsu-pc.com/www/news.shtml?
aboutus/pressreleases/pr_031302

PIC

http://pr.fujitsu.com/en/news/2002/03/12.html
http://202.217.56.130/
news/2002/03/12/pokcetloox/01fujitsu.html
http://www.zdnet.co.jp/mobile/0203/12/n_loox1.html
http://www.zdnet.co.jp/mobile/0203/12/n_loox2nd.html

What's interesting is that Sony alone can produce a
wider range of products than almost all the Pocket PC
vendors combined. The only niche which they're
(currently!) missing is the
under $100 student model.

SHEEZZ!!!
Where do you live? Mars?
80% of the people I know can't even play Quake II in their desktops!
If you need all that power, get a laptop. The secret of Palm OS success is it's simplicity.

Man, you really need to get out more often (& get a girlfriend)

This is in the same category as "why would anybody want to have that" (color, sound, bigger screen). Or "Zen" (what do you mean you want different design than Vx plus 16MHz dragon ball?)

Could it be because...

...they feel THREATENED?? Are they thinking:

"Oh no! Sony's introduced 320x480 resolution to PalmOS compared to our 240x320!!"

"Gak! Palm OS5 is coming in a few months, there are three excellent ARM processor families available, and they're gonna run that huge library of existing apps PLUS new ones that utilize native ARM!!!"
(Motorola Dragonball MX1; TI OMAP; as well as Intel XScale which is mandatory for PocketPC 2k2)

"Urrk! M$ has defined restrictive hardware specifications for PocketPC 2002, so all the hardware is turning out basically the same, while PalmOS licencees are free to pursue various innovative designs that hit all segments of the market!!!!!"

Actually, I'd guess that only the first scenario applies at the moment -- it will take a little longer for the other shocking realities to sink in... ;-)

nah, It's like a sport. You know from Zen angle of it all.

>> Could it be because...
...they feel THREATENED?? Are they thinking:
"Oh no! Sony's introduced 320x480 resolution to PalmOS compared to our 240x320!!"

That's nifty, now can one change resolution at will, sub pixels all the way to XGA, rotate, virtual windows any size, and work for any applications. "Oh no, you mean 160 by 160 text is not the world standart?"

>> "Gak! Palm OS5 is coming in a few months, there are three excellent ARM processor families available, and they're gonna run that huge library of existing apps PLUS new ones that utilize native ARM!!!"
(Motorola Dragonball MX1; TI OMAP; as well as Intel XScale which is mandatory for PocketPC 2k2)

Oh hey now, we are all waiting for Godot. OS 5.0 and OMAP will save the world in the near future. (how about May on store shelf like LOOX?)

> "Urrk! M$ has defined restrictive hardware specifications for PocketPC 2002, so all the hardware is turning out basically the same, while PalmOS licencees are free to pursue various innovative designs that hit all segments of the market!!!!!"
Actually, I'd guess that only the first scenario applies at the moment -- it will take a little longer for the other shocking realities to sink in... ;-)

That commie Microsoft, insisting on CF, color screen, Flash rom, and Arm proc standart.

Say, can you use Palm modem in Handspring or Handera CF card in Sony? how about that new bluetooth card. Ooops, all the innovation, and only 3 models from single company can use it. Now lemme pull my CF WiFi card from my laptop and stick it to ......well you pick which commie PPC brand.

M515 = $499
iPAQ 3765 = $549 ($50 rebate program from Compaq is still on)
look who is ripping of with good old 33mHz machine from the day of PalmIIIx?
-----------

Uh, I was just sent an email by Palm offering the M515 for $399.-, YES, PALM!!!

WAKE UP!!! What's PalmOS (NOT Palm, PalmOS!) market share? What's PPC market share? Ok, and WHY, pray may I ask???

Because no one likes to carry around a goddamn brick, THAT'S WHY. That's why the original Palm V outsold ALL Palm IIIs and all PPCs.

Until M$ comes out with smaller, lighter form factors that match or beat Palm devices and STILL maintain their feature-lead, these debates will continue to be BORING.

What is the fascination with watching a movie on a 3.5" screen?

My guess is the following: "I can do this with my overpriced gadget, so therefore I'm not the lifeless geek you think I am." Either that, or "I can do this, which means the fact that my johnson is microscopic and never gets used is irrelevant."

It DEFINITELY can't be: "This is a neat experience, because I can see so much detail."

Just a question...

I'm not sure whether you are saying 60-80% haven't installed a third-party app or 60-80% have. In any case, at PalmSource last month, Mike Mace said that a survey showed that 82% of Palm users are aware that they can load third-party applications onto their handhelds and 67% have done so.

---
News Editor

Actually as mentioned elsewhere, the M515 was introduced at $399, and has been available for $379 at retail stores. Every store I went to was sold out of the M515 except for one, and they had it hidden, so it is not exactly gathering dust.

In response to the other poster asking what boring things you could do with a Palm, how about creating relational databases, going through all your MS office files (Word, Excel, PowerPoint), watching movies (yes, movies), review your collection of JPG's and BMP's, in addition to enough games to make you sick... with the exception of Quake II. I'm out of time, but the point is that my co-workers with PPC could not do half of what my former M505 could do, so they don't even bother comparing them to my 144Mb M515.

I'm already using a Symbol WiFi card in my HandEra 330 right now, but it's nice to know that I have the option of using it with the newer Clies as well.

This is the story of American & Japan since about 1945. The US is well-known for developing NEW products. Japan is well-known for developing BETTER products. Why does this make you sad? Does your TV make you sad? Your VCR? Your CD player? Your car? Why should Palm be a source of disappointment and get slammed so mercilessly? People certainly don't rake RCA over the coals the way they do Palm...

Is Palm doomed to a fate worse than Apple? I doubt it. They have catching up to do--CLEARLY--but I think they're moving in the right direction. It appears Sony is moving toward ultra-high-end devices. Palm is handling mostly low-mid range devices, as well as the "former" high end, the V/m500 series, which is now more "upper-middle." PalmSource will handle the OS that powers all levels.

So who loses? Handera, if their niche device can't increase the size of its niche; Handspring, as clearly seen by the impending death of the Visor (see the vultures?), plus they simply can't compete with the Ericcsons & Nokias of the world on the phone market, and yes, Microsoft, who's so busy "centrally planning" the Pocket PC that they're stifling innovation and ESPECIALLY variety. Didn't they pay attention the past 20 years? Central planning doesn't work--you sanitize your product lines and lose diversification. Which is why, in 2 years, PPC users will all have essentially the same machine in slightly different packages, and Palm users will have a wide range of devices, ALL of whom can interact with each other effectively. This is also why Micro$oft will actually BENEFIT from being broken up, despite "Whiner Bill's" tantrums.

The poster above who noted the pattern of US creation leading to Japanese innovation is correct. With very few exceptions, America blazes the path for high-technology consumerism. Historically, Japanese corporations have always been exceptionally gifted at copying and then building on American creativity. (That is meant as a compliment, although I doubt it sounds like it.)

We already do. The only really distinguishing characteristics between PocketPC 2002 machines is battery life and expansion slots. Otherwise, they're virtually the same. If you're shopping for a PPC nowadays, the decision effectively comes down to whether you think Jornadas look better than iPaqs.

O well I really like this device, but I read something on the PDA Live (something like that) Forum that the Dragonball Super VZ Processor could emulate a ARM CPU someone even say he saw a demo, so the 10MB of Flash ram might be there for emulation code.

As I understand it, only the current hacks available in Palm OS 4, and below, will not be compatible with OS 5. That doesn't mean OS 5 will not support hacks. It just means that developers will have to port over (or newly create) hacks for OS 5.

So I wonder, is the glass half-empty or half-full?

if you like it, it's small.

Honestly though I think sony discovered something, they find out that a device being narrow is more important than being small. Being narrow it'll feel smaller when you hold it, who cares how long it is as long as it's acceptable.

This device becomes massive (length-wise anyow) with the keyboard open. Other than for sitting it on a desk/table (for which the thumbboard becomes kind of stupid), I don't know who would want to use the keyboard feature of this. Sony packed a lot of neat hardware in there, but I'm with the NR=Not Realistic comment. Unless you're getting this to show off to others, I'd don't see this flip-twist design as practical in any sense.

-haemish

2c

Virtual Graffiti may be another thing that will be different on OS5 than Sony's way of doing it.

---
If you sing in french while hopping on one foot, the evil birds won't come out of your bathroom mirror.

As usual I'll tell you that Sony just need to write a thin layer of code in order to make their API to be compatible with palm's API.

Then As usual someone will tell me it won't be compatble

Then as usual I'll have to tell someone again that it could be easily solved,

then again some one will tell me Sony's proprietary implementation will lose support ..

Will this infinity loop ever stop ??

> Then As usual someone will tell me it won't be
> compatble
> Then as usual I'll have to tell someone again that
> it could be easily solved,

> then again some one will tell me Sony's proprietary
> implementation will lose support ..

> Will this infinity loop ever stop ??

You're right. We should all stop with the "What ifs" and the "I think this might happen".

I'm just going to sit at home now, seclude myself from all rumors and announcements of future products, and never hope for anything that is better than I currently have. :P

Anyways, I was just responding to someone's question about whether there are any benefits to OS5 over an OS4 device with proprietary customizations. I listed the possible advantages of OS5, stated they were only a possibility by using the words "may" and "if", and that's it. I think you're reading way more into my statements than I actually wrote.

---
If you sing in french while hopping on one foot, the evil birds won't come out of your bathroom mirror.

How about early 2004?

I predict that Palm will release a model like this in about 2006, 3-4 years after Sony released the same thing.

Please reply...

What you perceived as poorly designed is only what you think it is, and not to many others whom may see it as a great designed product. So just let each and everyone has his/her views.

What this is basically doing is putting out the best of the Palms with a Sony name on it. Which leads to people talking about the Sony-Palms which leads to the normal person hearing about it (although they don't understand it) so that when they decide they too need a "Palm" and they see one by "Sony"... Click!

Sony doesn't have a majority of the Palm OS market. They obviously want some. And it looks like they are here for the long haul. They are establishing a STRONG presence in the marketplace with 6 different models (i think) at just about every price point.

They have used this process before. Sony makes some of the best audio equipment, but the average consumer just knows that sony makes "Good" stuff. So when they go to buy something, they buy the cheapest sony they can find.

I have a M505, I still believe that it was the best handheld available (notice, i said available) when i decided to buy. Right now, it would be a dead heat between the T615 and M515, but once this makes it to market....

But, if i had to buy one today, it would be the T615 or M515, because it doesn't matter what is coming out tomorrow, when it is today.

Nategall!

You gotta understand 6% marketshare in less than 2 years is pretty impressive specially a market that already has a dominant player. iPaq has been in the market for how long ?? I don't know but much longer than Sony they got 7%.

You are kidding, we can CHOOSE our devices?!!

Nobody told me! I have been here sweating my next decision, thinking that picking the wrong PDA would mean the death sentence! The cars driving by at night, you mean I don't have to guess which ones are the hitmen from the sony or palm camps? Whew! I can finally sleep and get rid of the brown bag I keep my, my,... oh wait, I forgot which PDA I had...

Not according to some of the people who write these comments.

Typical comment:
You WILL buy the same handheld I got or you are INSANE!! There is one one possible choice, the one I made!!!! EVERYONE who doesn't own a the same handheld I got is a MORON!!!!!

Where's the choice in that?

what do you mean m515 is a dud?
wait until they release the hot sizzling claudia schiffer m515. than the world will take it by storm.

<painfull groan>

Your endless whining would be a tiny bit more interesting if it was backed up by facts. The Claudia Schiffer and Michael Jordan Palms were put out by a reseller named PTN Media, not Palm itself. PTN Media buys them from Palm and then resells them. Your complaints are on the level of saying Microsoft stinks because you don't like the woman on the cover of PC Mall.

Someone makes intelligent analysis of Sony's role in the computer industry and the most intelligent response you can make is criticize a small uninvolved company's marketing strategy. Wow, I'm so impressed with you.

And Microsoft doesn't even need to break a sweat stomping Palm market share. And than Sony is stagnant OS from a dying company. It'll beg for the lucrative high end handheld market afforded by feature rich OS and tight coupling with intel proc.

voila. end of business strategy.

The writer was suggesting that Microsoft can do with Sony on their side when Sony has a PC-based product line (VAIO) and that means they can also include PPC 2002 products if they want to. Besides, iPaq seems to be the only one from the PPC 2002 stable that anybody seriously lust after.

If Sony can squeeze so much out of PalmOS/SuperVZ for their NR-series, think what else they can do with PPC.

>It'll beg for the lucrative high end handheld market...

Lucrative for who? Microsoft?

The clie is a strategic device. If your family all keep their data on memory sticks, guess what, you'll buy a Sony home entertainment system that uses memory sticks. You'll buy Sony digital cameras, you'll buy Sony. It's a plan. Hell, you've gotta have a plan, right? :)

of course it's their market strategy to support their own technology, but I really don't see the big advantage of SD while MS has 12 times more market share than SD.

Sony uses Windows in its VAIOs because Microsoft has a monopoly. If there was another viable option, Sony would use it. The two companies hate each other. Sony is one of the few companies with the guts and muscle to testify against Microsoft in its never-ending anti-trust case.

And this is why you will NEVER see this kind of incredible product development on the PPC side. Micro$oft is too busy "centrally planning" the future of PPC, while PalmSource is creating an open, dynamic system that allows its licensees to spread their wings.

A loaded question: which platform will OBVIOUSLY be more customizable, leading to a wide range of devices that appeal to any and every consumer? Duh...

Of course that's what you think. You're a Pocket PC troll who has only come here to irritate Palm users because you have no life. My guess is you are a high-school kid on Spring Break who isn't cool enough to go to Florida. Your Mom took your Xbox away from you because you didn't clean your room and you are trolling to give yourself something to do. I suggest you go outside and try to find a real life somewhere. Maybe make a friend.

This is the same kind of reasoning, on a different level, that the Soviets used to use on the Supply side of the economic equation. "Central planning" meant efficiency and stability. This is why Khrushchev pounded his shoe at the UN and said "We will bury you!" I'm sure Bill has the same feeling.

Those of us who paid attention in history know that central planning emphasizes efficiency & stability AT THE EXPENSE of variety, innovation, incentive, growth, etc. PPC looks good now, but wait 2 years, or whenever Micro$oft gets bored with it. We also know that it's Supply AND DEMAND that make the economy tick.
The PalmOS is simply more responsive to WHAT PEOPLE WANT, be it a basic organizer or a multimedia machine--and just wait for OS5 and beyond.

To all you PPC trolls who insist on adhering to the world according to Bill, just remember: the Soviets worked very hard to convince its people, too, and they truly believed their system was best (or else).

Perhaps the PPC ought to be offered in a red case, eh, comrade?

But, M$ is not sleeping either. Look at their Smartphone 2002 products coming out soon. Some pretty nifty stuff.

>Why would Microsoft want to switch Sony? At this rate Sony is going to
>reduce Palm to selling 5 bucks a piece OS license to Sony a year from now.
>And Microsoft doesn't even need to break a sweat stomping Palm market
>share. And than Sony is stagnant OS from a dying company.

This is precisely why Palm split into two companies. While Palm the hardware company may well yet go under in the long run because of real or perceived lack of innovation, PalmSource can survive. Under your scenario (or what I think is your scenario; it's not worded well enough to tell) Palm Hardware is going under because Sony took over their market share. Since Palm OS devices still outsell PPC devices by at least two to one, I don't think that would help Microsoft at all--it would just give it a bigger and more "innovative" competitor with much more operating capital.

And Microsoft has been trying to beat Palm's market share ever since they started trying to sell handhelds, and failing. At last count, didn't the Palm OS outsell PPC by two to one?

>It'll beg for the lucrative high end handheld market afforded by feature rich OS
>and tight coupling with intel proc.

I have yet to see a feature of that "feature-rich" PPC OS that Palm users or developers haven't been able to duplicate, or do better. Multimedia may be the possible exception, but I've been hearing "multimedia" being tossed around like some kind of sacred buzzword for about five years now.....how many more years is that still going to be the "next big thing"? How much multimedia does the average person really use? MP3's and photo albums would be my guess. Anything more than that (streaming video, movies) is just wasted on a tiny screen.

And there is nothing magically superior about an Intel processor when the OS needs that much "muscle" just to function. Less OS overhead means more processing and memory for running applications....it'll be neat to see how fast the Palm OS and apps will run on the ARM processors. Likewise there's nothing inherently better about Compact Flash, especially if you happen to own a whole lot of Sony gizmos that take Memory Sticks.

>voila. end of business strategy.

It really beats me how PPC advocates can say on one hand that Palm will die because they keep releasing essentially the same machine, and then on the other hand turn around and hail Microsoft's restrictions on PPC hardware as a good idea.

And speaking of Microsoft, that's one thing about their business strategy that annoys the hell out of me. They assume they know how everyone else should want to do things, make that the "standard", and force it on you whether you like doing it their way or not. In Windows, I'm constantly having to compensate for Microsoft's ideas of what it thinks I'm doing and the auto-settings it tries to anticipate me with; why would I want that on my handheld?

Industry analysts were very quick to pick up on the fact that there were almost no manufacturers who are willing to sign up to actually build any hardware based on this platform.

Perhaps they should change the code name from Stinger to Stillborn?

Perhaps they're reluctant to have "Big Brother Bill" DICTATE to them EXACTLY how they're to run their production. Microsoft is getting (or perhaps "has gotten) "too big for its britches" and is micro-managing all its partners. While this won't destroy the company --it's simply too big for that-- it WILL bring it down a peg or two.

Stinger is the beginning of the end for PPC...

Here's a tip for being taken seriously in the future: check your facts first, THEN post ;-)

The TI is a reference design: the only two companies who have committed to making a Stinger are Sendo (with the Z100) and Compal (notCompaq). Last February Samsung and Mitsubishi (under the Trium brand name) had said they'd produce Stingers, but have since backed away.

IOW, none of the top 10 cell phone makers on board, and analysists are essentially saying that "Smartphone 2k2 platform is to cell phones as Bob was to PCs"

Pocket PC Phone edition is probably going to ensure Stinger never really gets off the ground.

Except for Treo, I am waiting who else from Palm camp will come out with one. Hopefully Sony but that will compete against their SonyEricsson P800."

Well, aside from the original Qualcomm pdq back in '99, we've now got the Samsung SPH-i300 and Kyocera QCP-6035. Samsung showed off the next-gen SPH-i330 at CEBit, and Palm is also rumored to be working on a "smartphone".

What will be quite interesting is how the Symbian smartphones do, the P800 looks way cool!

But they'll unite to one big happy family in OS 5, Handera should be able to hold on for another half year right ? :P

This is sarcasm right? Palm Source sees it as a feature that different manufacturers can drop in their own APIs for hi-res, and virtual graffiti. They have no intention of resolving the API incompatibilities till something like Palm OS 6.

Which will essentially means both Sony and Handera APIs will be added in. That is how the licensing works ...