Comments on: Palm Uses Mace in Microsoft Case

In testimony today in the penalty phase of the anti-trust case against Microsoft, PalmSource's Chief Competitive Office, Michael Mace, said that Microsoft prevented Palm from entering the VSIP, Visual Studio Integration Program, for two years, according to Reuters. According to Mr. Mace, Visual Studio is the industry standard for developers and, by blocking Palm from the program, put the company at a serious disadvantage with enterprise developers.
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infrared hotsync

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 6:05:38 PM #
isnt there an issue that prevents infrared hotsyncing with the later versions of windows?.. or is it just a push for bluetooth?

RE: infrared hotsync
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 6:18:34 PM #
from:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L60E2499


In Windows 2000 Microsoft changed the way infra red is handled. Windows 2000 no longer sets the IR port on your PC like a COM port anymore - the OS recognises the IR port, but does not assign a COM port to it. Palm software needs the IrCOMM protocol (a virtual COM port for IrDA) to do IR sync with a PC. Microsoft says they will not (and do not) support IrCOMM on Windows 2000.

What this means is that devices the devices that use infra red via the IRDA standard (like your Palm device and many newer cell phones like my Nokia 8210) can no longer communicate with a device running Windows 2000. This is, of course, mad, as the IRDA standard was developed to be exactly that: a standard that would enable a range of infra red devices to inter-operate. As the Palm HotSync Manager only supports COM ports, both the HotSync Manager won't let you hotsync via infra red, nor can other IR devices communicate with Windows 2000. Palm talks about it here but don't hold your breath in any way: http://www.palm.com/support/helpnotes/win2k.html

Microsoft will maintain that they have decided not to use an internationally agreed upon standard to prohibit Palm users syncing via IR with Windows (WinCE owners couldn't anyhow) but to enable their infra red file sharing bull**** (which can be implemented whilst still maintaining the IRDA standard).  The 261million IRDA-enabled devices that will ship this year will not work with Windows 2000: I'm still awaiting Micro$oft's reasons for this decision.

You *may* find this Deja thread illuminating...where some guy says he got it working with his Ericsson with some workaround. Dunno about this - sounds a bit weird, but I don't wish to crush you totally.


---------------
I couldnt do infra red hotsyncs with my visor on winME. i can only transfer files

RE: infrared hotsync
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 6:56:24 PM #
Wha, you're out of date. Palm updated their hotsync manager long ago to re-add this. I IR hotsync easily with Win2k. In FACT even before that, the changes made in Win2k were actually helpful. For instance, without even the Palm Desktop installed (but Outlook still), you could beam back and forth from the desktop just as if the laptop was a Palm. Todo's and Datebook items become .vCals on the desktop (and vice versa). Memo's become .txt files on the desktop (and vice versa). Addressbook items become vCards on the desktop. And you can beam .pdb's and .prc's back and forth. On the desktop you just right click a file and choose to send to IR recipient. While I tend to agree in most cases of MS making things more difficult for Palm, in this one case, I agree with the techincal reasons that MS laid out for making the change in IR. And I've found it an improvement all around.

RE: infrared hotsync
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:06:19 AM #
yes, handspring was still distributing the older version of palm desktop. So did microsoft shake handspring off the system? People gave money to MS to upgrade their system and as a result they lost Palm functionality.

Microsoft does stuff like this all the time. They always break other peoples stuff and make them scramble to fix it while putting their competitors customer relations on the line. Same thing happened with Realnetworks..

RE: infrared hotsync
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:45:35 AM #
So I would find this better if I prefer digging around in my palm folder to find which pdb file is associated with avantgo or whatever and beaming that to my palm? and how the hell would I update my avantgo pdb file without hotsyncing?

honestly, I might prefer digging around when I was younger but I really do miss being able to lay down my visor next to my notebook and press the hotsync button without having to carry around all those cables...

Mace...

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 6:46:10 PM #
Mace Windu...?!?

His statements are puzzling. Palm apps such as Wordsmith and Docs to Go are already far superior to their PocketPC equivalents. The programmers for the other companies had no problems.

Well, it's obvious that Mace's boys in R&D and software development aren't as good as the programmers at Blue Nomad or other innovative Palm companies.

RE: Mace...
MobileMitch @ 3/28/2002 6:58:46 PM #
True, but its the principal of the thing.

If Microsoft continues to get away with crap like this you can bet that sooner or later it that integration with non PocketPC will cease to be.

RE: Mace...
tipds @ 3/28/2002 7:12:02 PM #
I didn't read that he couldn't get his products to work currently. I think what he presented indicates that Microsoft intended to make it more difficult for his products to work _IN THE FUTURE_. Basically, MS was threatening to make things difficult, but there was no indication that the applications were currently unusable.

Tip DS

RE: Mace...
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 7:14:15 PM #
No, you've totally missed the point. Visual Studio isn't used by people making commercial software like Wordsmith or palm's own developers. These people all use CodeWarrior. Visual Studio is used by corporate developers to write special purpose apps for their companies. By blocking these developers from using Visual Studio to make Palm apps, PPC has an advantage in large corporations over Palm.

Large companies are the only ones who can afford PPC's so Microsoft has to do everything it can to gain any advantage in this area.

RE: Mace...
TDS @ 3/28/2002 10:56:31 PM #
Mace Windu... That's funny!
Lets hope he fares well against "Emperor Gates"

RE: Mace...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/13/2002 8:20:22 PM #
I think the most important point is that the PPC ancd now SmartPhone 2002 will eliminate Palm from the corporate arena anyway, especially outside of the USA where the whole ABM attitude is lesser.

I have been working in Europe, Asia, and Austrilasia, on PDA developemtn, and all we develop for, now, is PPC, WAP, and the new .NET compact Framework.

All our Palm dev, and non MS devlopment has gone, no one wants it any more.

Some think this is bad, but hey, just put a new x-scale ppc next to a palm and then wonder.

Wait for the Mobile Gaming revolution from EA, doubtful they will support Palm too....

.NET

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 7:08:41 PM #
"Microsoft offered to include Palm only if Palm would deploy Microsoft's .NET technology on terms advantageous to Microsoft."

No sh*t. Of course MSFT will/should act in its own best interests. What kind of company negotiates terms advantageous to the other side??? Oh that's right, that'd be Palm - $10 for an OS anyone?

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 7:20:29 PM #
It is illegal for Microsoft to use its desktop monopoly to gain advantage in other areas. By blocking Palm from being included in VSIP unless it accepted bad terms in something unrelated, Microsoft was doing just that.

That's why Microsoft caved the moment it heard this was going to be brought up in court. Microsoft's lawyers *knew* what it was doing was illegal.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 8:01:48 PM #
You are so short-sighted, unless of course you own tons of Microsoft stock and would rather bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and not see what Microsoft is doing.

This isn't competition. It is malicious bullying of other companies and ultimately us, customers that will bear the brunt of Microsoft's excess. And if you are one of their fans (and probably owns a PPC), without fair competition from people like Palm, you will be stuck with WinCE 1.0 because they would not have to make their OS better. No need to.

To be fair, Microsoft CAN make great software but I don't like how they corner you and make you choose their way or the highway.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 8:34:19 PM #
with Palm leading the innovation charge, who needs arch-evil like Microsoft.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 10:25:17 PM #
I wish Mace & Co. would just worry about improving the Palm OS and less about MSFT. If Windows was improved at the same rate as the Palm OS, we'd still be at version Win 3.1.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 10:46:01 PM #
Hmm...I thought Palm OS has advanced much faster than anything Microsoft did. Gee, DOS for what, 5 years before a Windows? Well, OS/2 first, then Windows, but after Windows 3.0, it took another year before 3.1 came out. That was their first Windows platform. It took them another 3 years before Windows 95. 3 years for 98. 5 years for NT from 3.1.

My years may be off, but I don't think Palm is doing that bad in terms of updating their OS. Besides, everyone who is near Microsoft's touch has to worry about what Microsoft is doing, because they may be working to get rid of them, not with competition, but in ways that may not be fair. Hence the whole lawsuit. Duh.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:26:00 AM #
how about Windows CE? Microsoft latest major OS and the most relevant to Palm Inc.? The OS cycles every 8-12 months plus all the tools. I think that is pretty fast, short of comparing it with specialized unix OS.

It would be very funny if the WinCE 5.0 will come out before Palm OS 6.0 the suppsedly Palm answer which would put WinCE nightmare behind. And incidentally, microsoft already seeking input for that itteration of the OS.

I wonder if it is fair comparing developmental speed of Server class OS to a desktop to PDA's

I mean there must be at least 1 order of magnitude difference in term of program lines between each. But than again I am not an OS hacker.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 5:54:49 AM #
"with Palm leading the innovation charge"

With an OS that's about as modern as MS-DOS, stamp-sized screens, a C-based programming environment, and processors that run at 1/5th the speed of all others, Palm is hardly an innovator. That's OK: Palms are well-designed and useful. But to call them "innovative" is silly.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 11:20:37 AM #
Do anyone thinks that PPC (or WinCE) would have been updated so fast if there wasn't Palm holding 80-90% of the market?

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 2:18:29 PM #
Do anyone think that the PALM-OS would have been updated so SLOWLY if there wasn't Palm holding 80-90% of the market?

RE: .NET
Altema @ 3/30/2002 12:29:13 AM #
I seriously don't think that MS fixing their buggy OS is innovation.

As a person who was a lead for an IT helpdesk for several years in a corporation of over 15,000 employees, I can flatly say that WinCE and it's latest rehash have yet to prove themselves reliable enough for corporate use. Our support staff refuses to support PPC because it is so problematic. Palm OS is supported for all our locations, despite us being a Microsoft-based operation.

RE: .NET
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/3/2002 9:25:53 AM #
["I mean there must be at least 1 order of magnitude difference in term of program lines between each. But than again I am not an OS hacker."]

Then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself, rather than clouding peoples' perceptions with unreliable and likely incorrect information.

Thanks

Nice move

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/28/2002 7:50:41 PM #
Do you think after all this row Microsoft will be the bestest buddy and share all their toys with Palm?

Business is war and there are a million legal ways to make your rival live miserable. The world is a big place, there is always Asia and Europe to pick up fight.

RE: Nice move
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/13/2002 9:49:18 PM #
Just accept the fact that Palm is the Os if you want a digital diary in your hand, PPC is the OS if you want a PC in your hand...

It seems

Smaug @ 3/29/2002 12:48:00 AM #
Microsoft will petition this be thrown out and chances are it will be. This has absolutely nothing to do with the scope of the case. Which basically involves the Browser wars, java, and restrictive OEM licensing. This is an appeal, they cant introduce new evidence.

RE: It seems
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 8:13:02 AM #
Microsoft objected to having this testimony given at all and Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly still let it proceed. It isn't as open and shut and you make it seem.

It's a sucker games.

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:52:03 AM #
Time for Palm to hire better lawyers.

------------------

from AP,
........

Microsoft also pointed on Thursday to documents indicating that Palm, the handheld computer firm, submitted written changes to the states' proposed penalties that would benefit Palm.


........
The next witness in the case was Michael Mace, an executive at Palm. Mace said that Microsoft, using its dominance on the computer desktop, could make it difficult for Palm computers to link with desktop computers running Windows.

In its cross-examination of Mace, Microsoft said Palm was also intimately involved with the states' case. Microsoft obtained internal Palm documents showing that the handheld firm submitted written changes to the states' penalties that would benefit Palm.

Palm enjoys a huge advantage over Microsoft's competing handheld operating system in both total users and applications available for the product.

To illustrate his worries, Mace cites a 1999 e-mail from Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates suggesting that Microsoft "tie some of our audio and video advanced work to only run on our (handheld computers)."

Mace did not make any specific allegations that Microsoft has crippled Palm's business.

Mace also said that Microsoft set "dramatic restrictions" on Palm's effort to be included in Microsoft's upcoming Internet services product. That service, called Microsoft.NET, would use the Internet to help users communicate regardless of their location or what devices they use.

Despite those complaints, Palm asked in October 2001 to join Microsoft.NET on simpler terms, along with an investment in the handheld computer company, according to Mace. Lawyers close to the case said Palm asked for $50 million.

Mace said Palm asked for the investment "since Microsoft had paid Apple a substantial sum of money in their agreement." Microsoft refused to give Palm the money, but the companies eventually came to a deal.

Mace alleges that Microsoft's tactics were an attempt to block Palm's development, and Microsoft intentionally discriminated against Palm because of their competition in handheld devices.


http://www.nando.com/technology/story/329993p-2771945c.html

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:56:36 AM #
hey! wait a minute, what't the deal with Palm asking Microsoft for $50 million investment?

Now really who was the anonymous investor is it TI? or Microsoft? shsss......this start to read like soap opera.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 8:18:04 AM #
The AP article left out Mace's answer:
Braun attempted to show that Palm was motivated to participate in the case in an effort to undermine competition in the hand-held market by Microsoft. The software giant makes a handheld operating system, Pocket PC 2002, which runs on hardware of Palm's rivals.

Braun pointed to an internal Palm document drafted last fall that detailed proposed changes to the states' proposed remedies.

Mace denied that the measures would give Palm an unfair edge over Microsoft.

"They prevent us, sir, from being discriminated against," Mace said.

This is from CBS

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 8:23:17 AM #
I am sorry, but some of these people who "claims" they are hurt by Microsoft's desktop monopoly power starts to sound like a bunch whinners.

"Mace said Palm asked for the investment "since Microsoft had paid Apple a substantial sum of money in their agreement." Microsoft refused to give Palm the money, but the companies eventually came to a deal."

What !? M$ need to pay you because they paid Apple !? is this starting to not make any sense or what. Microsoft Settled a bunch of lawsuits Apple filed against Microsoft when the investment was made. Why should M$ offer you money for joining the .net program !? it's not like they need to settle anything with you.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 8:35:57 AM #
That's good negotiating. If MSFT wants .NET on the dominant handheld platform, it's reasonable that Palm should at least try to them to pay for it. It didn't work out but opening bids in often don't. You need to start at an impossible position so you can be negotiated down to something reasonable.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 8:44:51 AM #
But according to MSFT's theory, .net will be running everywhere except Palm, that's like another nail on the coffin for Palm as a viable wireless internet platform.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 9:05:09 AM #
If .NET didn't run on 80% of the handhelds sold, that's a big nail in the coffin for .NET.

But the point is moot. .NET will be on the Palm OS. It was necessary for both companies. They were just jockeying for position.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 9:11:51 AM #
LoL but .net will be ran on most desktop OS you use, when people o buying decisions they always think will I be able to run things I run on my desktop on this PDA ??

then those Sales person will be like, Palm OS PDA has 70% of Market share, but if you want to run those .net applications you run on your desktop you'll need to get a Pocket PC.

No that will not be a nail in the coffin for .net, that is the other way around. I am pretty sure currently people that uses Palm to get on the net wirelessly is similiar to the amount of people that use Pocket PC to get on the web wirelessly or maybe less, I know I know Palm got a super duper 75% Market share over Microsoft, but just look at the people who buy palm's PDA, they are all buying it as a datebook only, but for PPC people are really buying it as a portable computing platform.

And just face it that 75% Palm market share will count for nothing, why !? because even Microsoft port .net to palm, I am pretty sure there's no way Microsoft could port .net to Palm that runs Dragon Ball 33 Mhz processor, so I am sorry if you look at it that way Palm OS PDA has 0% Market share according to .net's target audience.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 9:26:25 AM #
Friend, if you don't know something as basic as the fact that Palm is moving to ARM based handhelds this summer, you probably shouldn't be posting your opinions here. It just makes you look like a Microsoft troll here to spread FUD.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 9:34:20 AM #
Friend, if you don't know something as basic as the fact that Palm moving to ARM based handhelds this summer doesn't make the 75% Palm PDA that runs 33MHz Dragon Ball Processors capable of running .net application, you probably shouldn't be posting your opinions here. It just makes you look like a Palm troll here to spread FUD.


RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 11:05:25 AM #
Can someone explain to me how web services (aka .Net), will provide any benefit to a non wireless handheld? It would be hard, because there is no way short of doing a lot of hot syncing to make any .Net based program work.

The only way at this point that you can take advantage of .Net is with a handheld conencted wirelessly to a broad band network. SOAP is too big of a protocol to work on a non-3G cell phone or pager network. You really need a handheld set up on a wireless LAN running 802.11 at this point for .Net to even work.

As far as a 33Mhtz machine not being able to run .Net (aka web services), that is a load of crap. There are plenty of XML parsers already running just fine on the Palm OS, SOAP is based on XML, so I don't see what the huge jump is.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 11:25:40 AM #
> Can someone explain to me how web services (aka .Net), will provide
> any benefit to a non wireless handheld?

In a couple of years, there will be hardly any non-wireless handhelds. Adding wireless access makes as much sense as adding a modem to a PC, and for the same reasons.

Don't get me wrong, there will still be non-wireless PDAs. There will always be a market for something that costs <$40 and stores phone numbers. But those aren't what I consider a handheld computer.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:43:37 PM #
"Can someone explain to me how web services (aka .Net), will provide any benefit to a non wireless handheld? "

You will get your .NET sychronization at every sync - think like AvantGo works. You will get your instructions via the Mother Ship in Redmond synced to your wired handheld. Follow the instructions. See the Queen of Hearts.

- Manchurian Candidate.

RE: It's a sucker games.
Altema @ 3/30/2002 12:50:50 AM #
"but just look at the people who buy palm's PDA, they are all buying it as a datebook only, but for PPC people are really buying it as a portable computing platform."

I have only met two people who use just the basic PIM's as you state, I know dozens who go well beyond the PIM functions on their Palm. You may be right about the second point, but the irony is that some Palm users are more proficient at using their devices as handheld computers than many PPC users. I work with many examples. Even my wife puts more runtime on her Palm than any of the guys at work put on their PPC's. She has her own office at home, her own laptop with all the software she needs, yet the Palm is her primary computer. Ditto for me... my desktop at home has been used a few times a month for printing and scaning. Other than that, it gathers dust.

RE: It's a sucker games.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/3/2002 9:32:35 AM #
Uhh....who the hell ordained that .NET will really deliver or be the wireless platform of the future? Given MS's past performance, it will be at least 5-6 years before the finally bring something to market that even reflects a portion of the hype they promise.

.NET is NOT necessarily the future. Get over it.

LOL @ Title

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 2:06:27 AM #
"Palm Uses Mace in Microsoft Case"

Gave me a mental picture of some Palm CEO spraying mace at Bill Gates.


RE: LOL @ Title
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 3:22:15 AM #
Well, I suppose it's better than a pie. ;-)

RE: LOL @ Title
Ed @ 3/29/2002 9:08:00 AM #
Thanks. I love a bad pun and I couldn't resist this one.

---
News Editor

Visual Studio -- what a piece of junk

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 5:50:38 AM #
I'm sorry, but I don't see it as a disadvantage that Palm isn't integrated with Visual Studio. Visual Studio is a piece of junk. Between CodeWarrior and the open-source GNU-based environment, Palm has its bases covered. Lack of Visual Studio support keeps the incompetent riff-raff out of Palm development, and that can only be good for the Palm.

RE: Visual Studio -- what a piece of junk
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 11:19:56 AM #
the incompetent riff-raff happens to be enterprise sector.

RE: Visual Studio -- what a piece of junk
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 11:24:29 AM #
Not an expert in coding but I think it's not a matter or "good", "better", "bad" or "worse".

It's that while most other people use it, no matter why, you gotta use it or you're leftover. Unless you can make all other to switch the platform and programs being used... (To Linux, OpenOffice, blahblahblah...)

Microsoft throws its weight at Palm

I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 10:43:05 AM #
Microsoft throws its weight at Palm
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-871253.html

Microsoft Hearings Move On To Servers
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 10:45:29 AM #
Microsoft Hearings Move On To Servers
http://wireless.ittoolbox.com/news/Dispnews.asp?i=68000

RE: Microsoft throws its weight at Palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 10:45:44 AM #
Subject Should be:

Microsoft plays dirty pool.

-or better yet-

Microsoft acts like the criminal opertation it is.

Government andCompetition give up further fight against MSFT
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/29/2002 12:46:23 PM #
I can't wait until I see that headline! It's coming soon, baby!!!

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