Comments on: Screenshots from Palm OS 5

PDAFrance has what is says are screenshots from Palm OS 5. The new OS supports up to 320 by 320 pixel screens and these shots show what some parts of the new operating system will look like at this size.

Update: According to ZDnet Japan, PalmSource's CEO David Nagel demonstrated this same GUI at PalmSource Forum Japan 2002 last week.

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Hope they're real

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:22:55 PM #
The high-res fonts and icons look great. I hope it's real.

I would not be surprised if this was real!
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:24:38 PM #
This sounds beleiveable...


RE: Hope they're real
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:21:23 PM #
Looks real to me.

RE: Hope they're real
Carlis @ 4/9/2002 5:39:21 PM #
Latest OS5 POSE have the same icons.. and theme ..
It looks so nice.. I want it in my M515 .. hehe :)

Themes?

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:32:08 PM #
That picture on the right side with the pull downs...could those be themes? That would be a nice touch.

RE: Themes?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:35:44 PM #
Dude... if you want themes, get a laptop.

Just kidding... I like the idea of themes too! Now I'm all amped for OS5!

Palm Power!

RE: Themes?
Ed @ 4/9/2002 12:41:50 PM #
Yes, that screenshot shows the process for selecting a theme.

---
News Editor
RE: Themes?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:55:39 PM #
Not a theme at all, just a color scheme.

RE: Themes?
visorprismman @ 4/9/2002 3:29:25 PM #
It is a color scheme but you can get it now...a really good program is chrome...there are other's too...but sometimes the background doesn't look good cause some third party aps don't use transparent icons...

RE: Themes?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 9:19:20 PM #
>>Not a theme at all, just a color scheme.

I didnt realize balloons was a color. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

RE: Themes?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 12:01:24 AM #
If you want themes, get Khroma.
RE: Themes?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 10:03:24 AM #
on the snapshot of Palm OS 5, on the right, you can choose your theme....

OOOOOOO..... GROAN

LC @ 4/9/2002 12:28:42 PM #
I should have known.. but I was hoping that the rumors where wrong...
There's nothing innovative here that I can see... if the palm os is going to keep it's dominance Palm should do more to make the device look good and make the OS look good... How are you going to draw more customers in when even the launcher looks dated. People care about what the device's OS looks like (just look at ther reaction of people to OSX) I know that pretty graphics take up more memory and processor power, but the ARM based palms should have power to spare.Is the Zen of Palm totaly against good looking user interfaces?


= = =
LC =
= = =

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 1:06:18 PM #
What exactly do you want to see?

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 1:08:38 PM #
Yes, please enlighten us. You seem to be the speaker of a vast majority or PDA users.

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
sub_tex @ 4/9/2002 1:18:56 PM #
If Palmsource was smart, then the "theme" implementation should mean that not just icons and colors are considered themes but real launchers.

So, someone like sony could make their version of say, megalauncher, and that would be the default view you see on their pdas - not a seperate app to run.

That would prove most flexible and offer users different devices and different views. And if you don't want all that? the base standard decade old interface is there.

For the originator of this topic - you did know that they were not redesigning the gui right? I mean, there have been SEVERAL pictures from Palmsource to show this as well as statements made.

This isn't new news.

Also, it isn't Palmsource's responsibility to redesign the gui really. I mean, not if they are going with the whole philsophy of not having one perfect pda for any one person. They offer all the tools the vendors need to make it THEIR pda.

that's the plan, or so it seems.

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 1:29:48 PM #
>> People care about what the device's OS looks like (just look at ther reaction of people to OSX) I know that pretty graphics take up more memory and processor power, but the ARM based palms should have power to spare.Is the Zen of Palm totaly against good looking user interfaces? <<

Oh, PLEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSSSEEEEE. Yeah, OK, the handful of Mac users left in the world are pissing in their pants over OS X. BIG F-ING DEAL! Mac users are generally overpassionate about their precious over-priced toys to begin with. I totally disagree with your assessment that people care that much about the looks of the OS. They want an IMPROVED view of it through hi-res, but ultimately, they don't care that much if the general look is the same.

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
LC @ 4/9/2002 1:52:25 PM #
Heeyyy... what happened to the free expression of ideas...???

All I was getting at is that in general, many new customers to PDA's and the such are drawn to interesting interfases, ofcourse this concept changes over time, there was a time when the win3.0 interfase was considered high tech!

I am not in any way a mac user of fanatic, but I have seen many people at fry's seriously considering iMacs due to the computer's design and how simple yet modern, high tech and pretty the OS look.

I am just saying that if you look at a PDA display at a compusa, fry's etc. the 'coolest' looking launchers do not come with palm devices. I wish they did so even more people would buy palm, more apps and accesories produced and subsequently more innovations happen.

Anyway, I am happy that there is innovation on the OS side, what I fear is that other companies are out-innovating palm.. I love the platform, I have PPC's and even psions and I allways come back to palm... I just hope they keep giving me reasons to

= = =
LC =
= = =

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:31:13 PM #
I'm not sure In understand you. Are you saying that Palm should not concentrate on the way the OS looks, but rather the way the OS looks? Huh?


RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:44:15 PM #
Hey, look up there! A flamer in every sense of the word.

There should be some kind of ignorance clause for these boards.

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 3:51:44 PM #
Are you talking about a "flamer" or a "flamer," if you know what I mean? I'm not sure you can totally justify one, and I doubt you could possibly know about the other.

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 6:34:34 PM #
"I am not in any way a mac user of fanatic, but I have seen many people at fry's seriously considering iMacs due to the computer's design and how simple yet modern, high tech and pretty the OS look.

I am just saying that if you look at a PDA display at a compusa, fry's etc. the 'coolest' looking launchers do not come with palm devices. I wish they did so even more people would buy palm..."

Yup...and generally those are the people that shouldn't be buying computers to begin with, because they have no clue what it is or how to use it. Apple has maintained a breath of life in the marketplace by ooohing and aaahing the gullible (oh, and a substantial amount of funding from their chief rival, so there could be "competition" in the market...Apple becomes a pawn of M$). I DEFINITELY don't want these kind of people buying PalmOS devices until they have a genuine use for them and a level of intelligence that allows them to think beyond "pretty pictures" to actual functionality. Let the "pretty pictures" crowd buy a overpriced PocketPC's to go with their overpriced IMAC's. The two products seem perfectly targeted for the same demographic.

This isn't to say that the interface couldn't be jazzed up a little bit, but the day my Palm looks like WinXP or OSX (especially if it is at the expense of performance and usefulness) is the day I ditch my Palm.

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 8:37:03 AM #
"Let the "pretty pictures" crowd buy an overpriced PocketPC to go with their overpriced IMAC's. The two products seem perfectly targeted for the same demographic"

I'd disagree - Palm and Apple share the same philosophy - simple but stable. Sure the Apple's OS is cutting edge, but it follows the Palm prinicple that you needn't be a IT graduate to get the most out of a computer!

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 9:05:55 AM #
Comment from a previous post:
"Yup...and generally those are the people that shouldn't be buying computers to begin with, because they have no clue what it is or how to use it. ..... I DEFINITELY don't want these kind of people buying PalmOS devices until they have a genuine use for them and a level of intelligence that allows them to think beyond "pretty pictures" to actual functionality"

Begin rant:
Is this a joke, I don't want "these kind of people" buying a palm. The irony hear is that you all sound like a bunch of Mac users and yet your slamming them. Your being just as elitist at about the Palm hardware/OS as a Mac user. And for the record I've owned several PCs and just bought one of the new iMac. I'm not one of those freaks about their computers -- it was the right tool for the right job. Believe it or not, people need computers and peripherals for different reasons -- for a lot of people if it's easy to use out of the box and it looks good too, that's just fine for them. A lot of people don't need to spend hours tweaking their palms so they can use this launcher or that freaky Star Trek theme. They just want an easy to use device that works. Hasn't that always been the hallmark of a Palm?

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
Ed @ 4/10/2002 9:43:37 AM #
Yesterday, this thread turned into yet another skirmish in the Mac/Windows war. Looks like I need to point out again that this is a Palm OS web site. Discussions of who makes the better desktop OS are off topic. That doesn't mean you can't make references to other operating systems in your comments but if you don't mention the Palm OS at all, you are off topic.

Sorry but there have to be some rules.

---
News Editor

RE: OOOOOOO..... GROAN
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:25:06 PM #
It's simple... very nice. What? Would you like something tacky like PocketPC?

Conformation: The real thing.

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:30:01 PM #
Yup, these r real things. BUT they r not taken from a handheld, but rather from an os5 emulator-like program (downloadable form palmos.com). Shore hope to see it soon
:)

Lazy Turtle

(sorry about the spelling)

RE: Conformation: The real thing.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:41:50 PM #
Yes this is just the OS 5 simulator running essentially the normal Palm apps. It is available to registered developers. Although I think the emulator is 320x320, OS 5 apparently supports many other resolutions than just 320x320 and 160x160.

RE: Conformation: The real thing.
acarrino @ 4/9/2002 1:47:40 PM #
If there is anyone out there who has access to more screen shots (in english perhaps) I'm sure we would all appreciate them.

Thanks,
\\ AC

RE: Conformation: The real thing.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 3:57:01 PM #
How about something fun to see? A showcase what it can do, instead of front icons and a menu page. (ie. the theme at work full blast, make it rawdy)

How about mp3, .mpeg, multimedia and the tauted new networking and security features.

RE: Conformation: The real thing.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:06:07 PM #
what do you want pic's of?? and where do you want them??


p.s. there isnt realy much to see

RE: Conformation: The real thing.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:28:35 PM #
There isn't anything useful to see in the OS 5 emulator. It is really just for developers and only has the usual Palm apps built in for testing purposes.

what about virtual graffitti?

wilco @ 4/9/2002 12:33:27 PM #
This is plain hypothesizing since Palm OS5's still not out. But up to 320x320 means no true high-res with Virtual Graffitti (at least not Sony's NR70 style). 320x320 while nice, won't hack it with next gen PDA, who knows what PPC had in store. Palmsource should try to be ahead of the curve not following Pocket PC.

RE: what about virtual graffitti?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 1:01:04 PM #
I think that will all depend on how manufactures use the Palm OS5 SDK. We just need to wait and see I guess.

Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?

Stefanos @ 4/9/2002 12:38:55 PM #
It is now clear that the PalmOS 5.0 will not take full advantage of ARM processors immediately (at least that is what I read on PIC). Given that there will be future versions (5.5 and 6.0) that will be released fairly quickly, will the first ARM-based PDAs be upgradable and fully compatible with the later versions?

RE: Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?
sub_tex @ 4/9/2002 1:24:06 PM #
Since the os is to be ARM based from here on right now i don't see how software changes in OS 6 would change the device processor chip requirements.

RE: Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:23:58 PM #
Yes. Earlier devices running on the dragonball processor, with earlier versions of Palm OS, were upgradable to Palm OS 4.1 as long as they had sufficient flash ROM. Now Palm OS 5 takes the OS to ARM processors (so early devices wont be upgradabe to OS 5), BUT these new ARM devices will be able to upgrade to newer versions of Palm OS (5.5, 6.0, etc) provided they too have sufficient flash ROM.

RE: Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 6:13:26 PM #
Even better, you will probably be able to upgrade them to Linux.
RE: Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?
popko @ 4/10/2002 2:07:13 PM #
"Even better, you will probably be able to upgrade them to Linux."

I kinda like this idea. You buy your PDA just like you buy your computer:

There may be per-loaded OS on your PDA. But you can always reflash the ROM and install OS of your choice.


---------------------------------
I am lost. But I am going to find myself. So if I return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

RE: Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:11:20 PM #
> There may be per-loaded OS on your PDA. But you can
> always reflash the ROM and install OS of your choice.

I'm sure we will have that at some point. There are various OS's that you can already flash onto the iPaq. Of course it would also be nice if the serial/USB connector at the base of PDAs was standardized too.

RE: Will future handhelds be upgradable from OS 5?
Palm_Otaku @ 4/10/2002 7:13:49 PM #
Even better, you will probably be able to upgrade them to Linux.

Heh, don't you mean "downgrade"? Not to diss Linux, but the richness of the applications available for PalmOS is unsurpassed, and will likely remain so for some time to come. I can't see a lot of developers porting to Linux (even though the new Sharp PDA looks pretty cool) because the Linux mindset is focussed on free software, and it's hard to pay the bills when you're expected to "give your work away"...

One of the running jokes at the recent PalmSource concerned the pre-production Symbol with the QVGA screen. We asked if they'd be using the XScale ARM processors for next generation devices, and if so, whether there would be a dual-boot option! -)

(As you probably are already aware, Symbol is one of the few companies offering both PalmOS and PPC handhelds.)

New handhelds

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:49:09 PM #
Let's hope the new handhelds that Palm releases for the new OS will have hardware improvements, too, such as: thumboards, cellphones.

RE: New handhelds
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 12:57:51 PM #
It'll be wild to see what Sony does with the OS5 SDK.

RE: New handhelds
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:41:45 PM #
Oh yeah. But rather than try to showhorn everything and the kitchen sink into a handheld, why not a .39" palm os5 16bit colour with blackberry thumboard and integrated bluetooth.

RE: New handhelds
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 12:42:59 AM #
Nooo...I personally don't like the integrated thumboard to replace grafitti, too much of the OS uses stylus tapping natively, I see it being a pain...don't you think?

Actually, this would make a good poll sometime, whether users would go for a graffiti or thumboard version of a "normal" form factor palm, i.e. the M515 or the T615.

RE: New handhelds
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 1:24:19 PM #
>Nooo...I personally don't like the integrated thumboard to replace grafitti,

Yr right if yr talking about Handsprings Treo - with those you have to choose. But integrated thumbboard on PalmOS doesn't mean you have to replace grafitti. Look at the new sony NR70. This is a clamshell design (which some dont like) but you could also follow the design Sharp's Zaurus (linux pda).

Groan

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 1:25:25 PM #
Oh boy - Palm has designed an OS that can do some of the thins a Sony Clie can do! I can't wait. It will probably be as disappointing as OS 4.

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 1:34:48 PM #
Really. The Clie has themes? How do I access them?

Oh, wait, I can't. Maybe if you pull your head out of your a** the pressure released from your brain will allow you to think clearly.

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:02:55 PM #
You are right, my head was up my a**. I was looking for Palm's innovation, since I couldn't find it anywhere else. I looked for it in their new color units -- boring -- who in their right mind would buy one of those 160 x 160 units? Oh, you would. Maybe you should by an 8-track for your car.

As for themes - big deal, so you have to have a third party program on the Sony to have a colorful background and use more memory.

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:05:43 PM #
LOL!!!

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:29:20 PM #
I'm a Sony Clie user and fan, but jesus christ - you sony fanatics are anoying.

>Oh boy - Palm has designed an OS that can do some of the thins a Sony Clie can do!

Are you an idiot? Yr Clie does what it does because of Palm OS. And it will do it better because of Palm OS 5 (with newer model Clie).

Here's what you should do: Go to the Launcher, go to the menu and select 'Info', then 'Version'. Note the statement at the top of your screen: 'Palm OS software Vx.x'. Now tap 'Done' to return to the launcher, then launch 'MemoPad', then 'New'. Now grafiti: 'I am a moron and i should not be aloud to post comments on PIC' 5000 times.'

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:46:58 PM #
You don't need Sony or OS 5 to change "themes" on your palm... take a look at the Butterfly:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K5EE427A

Oh, and it's a freeware :)

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:58:37 PM #
Really? A Sony Clie uses a Palm OS? Wow. Thanks for clarifying it. I DO realize that Sony will be able to expand upon the OS 5, like it has with the others. My point is that everyone seems to be salivating about an OS that my not do much more than what a Clie does now. OS 4 was not the end-all, be-all that everyone thought it was going to be -- why will 5.0 be any different. I am not a Sony fanatic, but I do recognize the company's innovations -- people blast the memory stick, but it is competitively priced and very handy. Palm has not had much innovation since the Palm itself. I know it is hard to admit, but true

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 3:26:24 PM #
>My point is that everyone seems to be salivating about an OS that my not do much more than what a Clie does now..

Wow! yr Sony has has a 200-400Mhz processor! integrated SSl and VPN! Got to get me one of those.....



RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:17:39 PM #
Look at the 4.1 Palm M515 and the 4.1 Sony Clie NR70V. Palm OS is open source so God only knows what Sony could do with OS 5.

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 5:49:33 PM #
Do you really think Palm will actually take advantage of the new Palm OS!?!??! Hamahahahahahahahaha. FUNNY.
THey won't,I have seen their innovation. A new PalmPilot every 5 years. FUNNY.
Btw, the SD slot is the stupidest thing ever. Panasonic cameras do not widely use the SD slot YET, however Sony's memory slots do.
DO you really think Palmsource will let their new PDA's run 200-400MHZ!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, shoot a can in my a** and knock me silly. Palmsource is all about 'simplicity', and that other garbage. I'm not suprised if they come out with support for only processors up to 100mhz. WoopdeeDO. Sony's new NR70 can easily do that right now. 66mhz, in addition to a current app that overclocks your PDA wouldnt be so far behind that. And im sure by the time they develope a program to overclock the ARM processor PDA's, Sony would have created a faster processor, of course, with the crappy regulation of Palmsource's stupid OS.
High Res screeN? You guys really think thats innovative? Sony's screens already support that, and they have apps out there, not alot, however enough, in addition to games that actually support that. What about the new NR70V's 480 X 320 high res screen, or whatever it is? Now that is freakin' amazing. And palmsource cant even create an OS that supports higher than 320 X 320 color resolution. Sick.
Virtual graffiti? Well, I haven't heard of virtual graffiti in the new Palm OS 5 officially yet. THe new NR70V has support for virtual graffiti. Gee wiz, i guess OS 5 hasnt implemented that yet. Or should I say, PalmSource. Hah. Funny. A half done job. And btw, the pic shown on that picture. I dont know where it came from, so I'm not trusting it. If it has VG, wow, thats amazing, the Sony already has it. If it doesnt, I'll laugh harder tonight when I meet at Starbucks with my friends.
I will obviously watch for OS6, however, it will be another year since that will come out, with multi-tasking and everything else. Who knows how awesome the PPC will be. :)
Seems like OS5 is still definitely a dissapointment. And please. Do not buy anything from Palm Inc. They eat your money, develope something 1 month ahead. Go to sleep. Eat your money and do the same cycle over and over again.

An Anonymous User.
A definite Sony and somewhat of a PocketPC fan.
BTW. Samsung. Go to sleep.
BTW: Handspring. Go to sleep. Your springboards are junk. If you want to add an mp3 module, make a clie.
BTW: Handera. You've lost the race. Go home and get out of that wheelchair and learn how to walk.
PS. What I love. I am an anonymous user, so you cannot directly flame me.
Anything else I forgot, shoot me. But you know I'm right, you stupid Palm, Handspring, and Handera fans. Go sleep and wake up when Palm Inc, HS, and Handera go bankrupt. I'll laugh. :)

RE: Groan
bcombee @ 4/9/2002 6:07:08 PM #
Palm OS isn't really open source. A subset of the OS code is available for developers to inspect for debugging purposes, but developers can't build their own OSes or even cut and paste from the source code files. Plus, developers have to adhere to a non-disclosure agreement.

As for licensees, they have more leeway with the OS code, but most of their customization is limited to adding shared libraries for their functionality, changing the hardware interface layer, and modifying the built-in apps.

CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 6:56:54 PM #
If the guy who posted before bcombee isn't trolling, I don't know what is.

Ed, does such obvious flamebait really need to stay on the board?

RE: Groan
sub_tex @ 4/9/2002 10:36:42 PM #
Palmsource isn't making any pda's........they make the OS. Palm Inc. is in the hardware business...

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 11:44:17 PM #
And that is exactly what I had referenced to.
It is not trolling, it is stating a fact.
RE: Groan
rigter @ 4/10/2002 6:04:19 AM #
A bit of perspective here:

The move towards OS5 happens in two steps.
First a move from version 4 to the new hardware platform with only minor 'improvements'. This is done to smoothen the transition for Palm AND its licencees to the new OS. Moving an existing OS to new hardware and trying to squeeze out every possible new functionality is a never ending source of trouble at best.

Second, after the move to the new hardware has been successful, it's time to dig deeper and start swinging.
That is why it probably won't take very long for palmsource to come up with the next version. The BeOS guys are working on that already I suppose.

Flaming Palm for 'not innovating' is lame.
That was never the point of the exercise.

Both Sony and HandEra came with innovative designs, based on OS4. There is no doubt in my mind that these companies will come up with some spectacular stuff, based on OS5, too.
Both companies do not sell large quantities of pda's. HandEra are targeting a niche market. Sony sells less handhelds than possible because of pricing and worldwide availability. Sony also seems to avoid the enterprise market so far. Possibly more reasons.

The hard fact is that the numbers clearly indicate that Palm is the number one market leader by a wide margin.
Claiming the premature death of all sorts of pda manufacturers and shooting silly objects in your *ss only shows to me that you're probably some bored male adolescent that is allowed to use daddy's computer without parental supervision.

If kids like you consider PIC their playground, it's high time for me to go look for another place on the net where posts like yours are actively discouraged.

Cheers,
Jan

/*
One thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse.
*/

Can't help it - must flame troll.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 1:41:13 PM #
>>DO you really think Palmsource will let their new PDA's run 200-400MHZ!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, shoot a can in my a** and knock me silly. Palmsource is all about 'simplicity', and that other garbage. I'm not suprised if they come out with support for only processors up to 100mhz. WoopdeeDO. Sony's new NR70 can easily do that right now. 66mhz, in addition to a current app that overclocks your PDA wouldnt be so far behind that. And im sure by the time they develope a program to overclock the ARM processor PDA's, Sony would have created a faster processor, of course, with the crappy regulation of Palmsource's stupid OS.

Well. Where do we start with this?

>>DO you really think Palmsource will let their new PDA's run 200-400MHZ!?!?!?

Well no i dont. But thats because PalmSource doesn't make PDAs - they only make the OS (and other related software). Palm is split into 2 completely seperate entities. PalmSource has zero control over what/how the hardware guys (called Palm Solutions now?) decide to do with the hardware.

>>I'm not suprised if they come out with support for only processors up to 100mhz.

Ummmm - Intel has already announced PalmOS compliant processors that at 200 and 400 MHZ. In theory, the ARM architecture can scale to at least 700Mhz (i originally heard 1.2 Ghz but can't confirm). Of course the practical limitation here is battery life - so we aren't likely to see 700Mhz PalmOS devices soon.

>>And im sure by the time they develope a program to overclock the ARM processor PDA's, Sony would have created a faster processor, of course, with the crappy regulation of Palmsource's stupid OS.

Sony doesn't build there own processors dip**** - they'll use Motorolla's (like they do now), Intel's, Texas Instruments, or whoever else build processors that are ARM architecture. As for 'Palmsource's stupid OS' - apparently Sony doesn't think it's stupid since they choose it to power YOUR HANDHELD.

You Sony freaks should stop and think before you make fools of your selves by continuously missing the point that Palm and PalmSource are 2 seperate companies. Why would you slam the OS when it is one half of the thing that defines your Clies as what they are?? Sony didn't choose PocketPC because they know that Microsoft doesn't allow you to do things like deviate from 320x240 resolution graphics. Anyway, slamming Palm is not the same as a Windows user slamming Macs - its more like a Dell or Compaq user slamming Windows.

BTW. I own a Sony t615 - so this isn't a case of being 'defensive' about Palm.

RE: Groan
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 7:47:40 AM #
I own a Sony T625 as well as a Palm m505. I like them both. Both runs PalmOS. The screenshots looks great. I don't need stupid themes. (if I need one, I will get a 3rd party launcher - thank you)

Easy to read hi-res fonts, yeah!

popko @ 4/9/2002 1:38:04 PM #
My eyes are not getting any younger. So I'm reaslly looking forward to the easier to see fonts show on the screen-shot. I know that pic was most likely taken from a software emu, but I'm still hopeing OS5 hi-res fonts will be better than what Sony have right now.

---------------------------------
I am lost. But I am going to find myself. So if I return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

RE: Easy to read hi-res fonts, yeah!
nXt @ 4/9/2002 2:11:03 PM #
ThinFontFix fixes the thin hires fonts on the Sony Clie units... and it's only 5k in size.

nXt's Clie Club
Place To Be For Sony Clie Discussion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nxtclieclub
RE: Easy to read hi-res fonts, yeah!
cyruski @ 4/9/2002 3:05:12 PM #
i like these fonts better than thinfonthack though.

cyruski!
RE: Easy to read hi-res fonts, yeah!
Scott @ 4/9/2002 3:43:31 PM #
From what I've seen, the thinfontfix for the Sony seems to just replace the font with a bold version which ends up with some letters touching eachother. So, you're just trading one usability problem for another. This looks much better to me.

Scott

RE: Easy to read hi-res fonts, yeah!
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 9:58:42 AM #
Lubak's high-res fonts with FontHack123 look almost as good if not better than the emulator shots of OS 5.

Do you suppose hacks can still be developed?

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 2:38:09 PM #
There are some great hacks out there that make the use of my PDA easier (like MiddleCaps Hack, EasyLaunch, ClockPop, and DA Launcher). Even though Palm OS 5 has been reported not to support hacks, I had thought that the Palm OS was never designed with hack support anyway. Couldn't hacks still be developed?

RE: Do you suppose hacks can still be developed?
LC @ 4/9/2002 3:17:27 PM #
I do hope that someone compes up with a prog. that allows hacks to be used. They do make the palm so much more usefull I find that it is one of the things that make my palm 'mine' when I use someone else's palm that does not have 'my' hacks, it is like typing on a Dvorak keyboard, you can do it but you have to think about it too much.


= = =
LC =
= = =

RE: Do you suppose hacks can still be developed?
bcombee @ 4/9/2002 5:54:38 PM #
You can still make hacks on Palm OS 5, but you have to use system notifications instead of API patching. This method will allow a large number of hacks to be ported to the new OS, but not everything that hacks can do now will be possible. In your list, things like MiddleCapsHack, PopClock, and EasyLauncher should be possible, as there are notifications that would allow OS 5 hacks to intercept the pen strokes that activate these.

CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead

I don't know about you, but

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 3:03:42 PM #
this whole conversation is giving me gas. Its filling me up, but this is not the full feeling I like...

RE: I don't know about you, but
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 3:56:08 PM #
Welcome to the PIC Discussion Boards. Get used to that feeling.

they are real

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 3:01:17 PM #
the screenshots are real, you can take alook at the presentation where they were taken in palmsource japan

http://ascii24.com/news/specials/article/2002/04/06/634970-000.html

Looks good

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:02:24 PM #
The UI update looks good, and is welcomed.

I am more interested in what is under the hood. Having the Palm OS strapped on to the ARM processor is going to be sweet. Low footprint OS ontop of a high performing processor - a perfect combination.

RE: Looks good
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 10:28:22 PM #
Like the Zaurus? lol im messing around. the only reason im picking the Clie NR70 over the Zaurus is the AV remote tho. I love the design on the Zaurus, but it needs a jog dial. I like the Clie, but it needs OS5...

Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:00:26 PM #
Sony has showed me the light... 320x480... that is nearly SVGA (to use a classic term)!

So business people and maybe won't need flashy design and mp3 players, but as a student, I want it.

But most importantly, I want a software silkscreen area, which applications can use to customize buttons and keyboards (or better, display a Word/Web page with FULL width)!

I have a PalmVx currently, and the darn silkscreen thing is not even lit.

RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
mdquerng @ 4/9/2002 4:28:48 PM #
Actually 320x480 is HVGA (or half VGA)...

RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:30:50 PM #
Well, of course your Vx does not have a backlit silkscreen - it was designed before that feature was available on a Palm device.

I suppose you would complain about your 1965 Beetle not having an air bag, too.

RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 7:02:32 PM #
Handera has had software grafitti for a year now. Did you miss it? Oh, and you can actually control when you want to minimize it instead of having Sony decide for you.
RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 7:49:30 PM #
Sony doesn't decide when users can resize can the graffiti area the applications do. It's the applications' responsibility to enable it and to support it. IMO, this is just as good on the Handera, what's the point of resizing the graffiti area if the application isn't written to handle it?
RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 7:54:58 PM #
Sure you can control the VG? How many apps support Handera? Sony does not control it. It leaves it to 3rd party developer. That is better to have current apps crashed all the time. The extra space is useless if it is not supported by the apps and only adds compatibility problems.
RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 8:21:56 PM #
In what way does HandEra control the virtual graffiti area with applications that don't support it? Does it go away and leave a blank space that you can't do anything with? Even worse, the HandEra forces 1:1.5 scaling on applications (160x160 to 240x240) even when you don't care about the virtual graffiti area. This leads to lots of compatability problems and/or requiring you to SHRINK your app to run in a little 160x160 window (much smaller than even the m100 screens!). Sony's method is much better, since you can easily do pixel doubling to get from old 160x160 apps to 320x320. I have a N710C and a T615C and I've NEVER had any incompatabilities due to the high-res screen. Now that Sony is supporting virtual graffiti (the SAME way HandEra did -- requiring application developers to update their software to use it), it's better than HandEra's screen in every way.
RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 10:21:33 PM #
hey, Hey, HEY, careful about the old VW beetles, your really hitting low now ....... -)
RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 8:16:36 AM #
> Even worse, the HandEra forces 1:1.5 scaling on
> applications [...] This leads to lots of
> compatability problems

Hardly. Pretty much all modern applications have been updated to support the HandEra 330's screen. Unless all you do is play games, you will not see compatibility problems in daily use. Developers must keep those issues in mind for the future because OS 5 supports resolutions other than just 160x160 and 320x320, similar to how HandEra does it. Scaling is for legacy applications only, anyhow.

> Sony's method is much better

Sony's hi-res implementation, is/was an awful hack. They just encouraged using a whole new API that has the same issues as the legacy 160x160 applications do. How exactly are you going to move from 320x320 or 320x480 with virtual graffiti to a very nice 480x480 or 480x640 with that mentality. Think beyond the little square box.

RE: Skipping Palm and waiting for Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 7:50:09 AM #
I doubt many apps will be written for Sony's NR series (320x480) since only a few people will ever buy it.

Dull and Dreary

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:39:52 PM #
Is it just me or are those dull, dreary icons /fonts underwhelming? I love the simplicity of the Palm OS but the PPC icons and fonts blows this away.
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:45:41 PM #
go away, troll. go use your pocket pc and go back under the bridge.
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 5:13:04 PM #
I have a m515 but I expected more for OS5.
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 11:53:09 PM #
Silly as it is, icons look does count. You stare for the rest of that Handheld life. COme on, at least have some really stylish icons update for once instead of tired recoloring of old icons.
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 12:59:20 AM #
The whole idea behind icons is to be instantly recognisable, like the forward/back/stop buttons on your browser. Since there's no universally recognised image for representing Memopad/Hotsync etc... I think it's smart to update the current icons with higher res and color, rather than replacing them with less intuitive versions.
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:04:49 AM #
you mean it is not possible to design something new, interesting but yet intuitive?

we are not talking about replacing the icon with some ultra modern simulacra of objects here.....

just spiff up the darned thing with something more interesting, that's all.

RE: Dull and Dreary
higgy @ 4/10/2002 9:21:16 AM #
I gues you should desing some new icons and post them for all to see the true innovator at work.

Higgy

RE: Dull and Dreary
bcombee @ 4/10/2002 3:03:00 PM #
The most intuitive user interface for current users is the one they're already using. Changing something with an installed user interface just for the point of change will just add to the total frustration level of the universe. I personally really like the facelift of the new icons, while preserving the simple but functional launcher UI that Palm has had since OS 3.0.

CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 3:36:15 PM #
Groan:....this must be the "innovation ala Palm" talking.
RE: Dull and Dreary
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 10:43:40 PM #
"The most intuitive user interface for current users is the one they're already using. Changing something with an installed user interface just for the point of change will just add to the total frustration level of the universe. I personally really like the facelift of the new icons, while preserving the simple but functional launcher UI that Palm has had since OS 3.0."

now what would be nice is that if the icons in os5 were animated of some sort when clicked on. nothing drastic. but like when u click and hold on the memo icon that the page rips off or on the phone one that it looks like it rings. that would be kool but not too differnt since all of us dont click and hold on the icons. [of course this goes to a previous post i had that said that there should be a pop-down menu when u click and hold on the icon that gives u options...sorta like mac and beos]
~twizza [unlogged and supposed to be doing research on oil drilling :\ ]

LOOK at the Graffiti Icon (Program)

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 4:49:45 PM #
There should be more functions/customizations for Graffiti in OS5. Hope so.
RE: LOOK at the Graffiti Icon (Program)
cykalan @ 4/9/2002 5:02:12 PM #
so it's near the end of OS 4 and you tell me that you do not even know there's also a Graffiti Program in your OS 4 Palm too?

oops...

Alan
----
Read your manuals before you ask!!

RE: LOOK at the Graffiti Icon (Program)
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 5:17:55 PM #
What on earth are you blathering about? He said CUSTOMIZATIONS, not that there should be a Grafitti app.

Please make sure you actually read the posts before deciding to be a flaming troll.

Hugs and Kisses.

RE: LOOK at the Graffiti Icon (Program)
twizza @ 4/10/2002 3:10:38 PM #
what would be nice is that if when u installed an input/grfatti replacement program tht it would be accessible via the grfatti icon and from there you could configure it to ur tastes.

Old news.

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 5:31:59 PM #
If your a registerd palmos.com user then you have access to the "PalmOS 5 Simulator_dr8" this simulator has been available for some time now.

The screenshots are authentic.

RE: Old news.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 5:37:31 PM #
Just an update:
I've just checked the Palm Developer pavilion and they've posted a new simulator for OS5 along with a SDK.

So if you wanna develop software for OS5 register and download.

RE: Old news.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 8:05:33 PM #
The new calculator looks nice too.

Interestingly the version numbers are mainly all at 4.5.

RE: Old news.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 8:58:10 AM #
I'm registered at palmos.com, but currently i cannot get the PalmOS 5 simulator. Where must i go to when i have logged in?
RE: Old news.
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 2:01:26 AM #
once you've logged in, just goto the 'roms' section.

Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5

mykul @ 4/9/2002 5:30:51 PM #
I am so happy to see these pictures. If you will notice in the pictures from the PalmSource event in Japan.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R283128A

The Grafitti area is digitized on the screen. I understand that the developer version is meant to run on a PC so it would have to add the Grafitti area for testing...but the old develper edition didn't have it as an included "GRAPHIC" in the OS...it was just a single pic that was not displayed at the OS resolution like this one...

I could be wrong, but lets hope not!!!

:-)


In His Grip, <><

mykul

God Rocks!!!

RE: Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 11:54:41 PM #
About freaking time. I mean seriously, If one thinks about it, Users spend alot more time 'viewing information' than inputing on PDA. SO a great large screen is definitely a winner. Plus the technology has reach such that virtual grafitti can be implemented without sacificing screen surface wear out or machine ability to recognize pen input.
RE: Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 4:30:49 AM #
There haven't been any indications that PalmOS 5 is going to support software graffiti natively.

The fact that the photos from PalmSource really don't prove anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "the old developer edition didn't have [the graffiti] graphic" the emulator shows a graffiti area. I'm not sure about the Mac Simulator, but that's a completely different program from the OS 5 Simulator, despite the name.

RE: Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:36:26 PM #
> There haven't been any indications that PalmOS 5 is going to support software graffiti natively.

I'm pretty sure, formal or not, that OS5 *will* support virtual graffiti. Since the ARM boards they use to test on (mockups of hardware, though not real hardware) ALL have used virtual graffiti, it is a safe bet that it is "included" in there in some form. Why they don't bother to make it a selling point I don't know (unless they are hoping to hold on to some aspect of OS5 and try to be the first hardware to have that feature on an actual device).

(With Sony's current track record, I'd still expect Sony to beat Palm out of the gate with an ARM device.)

What's the big deal of this?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:45:04 PM #
SONY already made it happened on Palm OS 4.1 on their Clie NR series.

What Palm. Inc is developing is ALWAYS 1.5 years slower then SONY.


RE: Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 3:50:10 PM #
and Sony is always at least a year behind HandEra.
RE: Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 4:02:42 AM #
I spent the evening pouring over the 'draft' preview copy of the PalmOS 5 SDK documentation and there isn't any reference to Virtual Grafitti anywhere - i looked through the Palm API Reference and the Palm OS Companian and could find anything. I even did a keyword search of the documents.
RE: Virtual Grafitti is a Reality in OS5
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 7:52:03 AM #
> SONY already made it happened on Palm OS 4.1 on their Clie NR series.

No, they did not. The NR series has a virtual grafitti but it is not native.

> What Palm. Inc is developing is ALWAYS 1.5 years slower then SONY.

No...remember who created the PalmOS? I wondered where Sony was that time. And Palm Inc does not develop the software, it is PalmSource. Your ignorance amuses me.

Anyway I own both Palm m505 and a T625. Since many apps does not use high res yet, I always use the m505. Only when I am reading e-books I uses the T625. Both are nice and both runs PalmOS.

I don't care much what it looks like

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 6:10:27 PM #
It takes a graphic artist a few days to make the thing look whatever way you want it to. The question is: has the programming model improved? Can we finally write 32bit protected mode applications? Do we get the ability to define windows and scalable UIs? Or will we still be stuck with pixel-based 16bit programming for another couple of years?
RE: I don't care much what it looks like
hotpaw4 @ 4/9/2002 9:57:16 PM #
Scalable UI's look pretty bad on 160x160 monochrome displays. There are so few pixels, that every one is valuable. It may be a couple years before hi-density color displays have the dominant market share.

As for security, that depends more on the MMU capabilities of the Palm-Powered ARM CPU chip suppliers.

RE: I don't care much what it looks like
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 11:59:51 PM #
Isn't effective UI design is what modern consumer PC is all about?

All the talk about simplicity of buttons, etc. Now that we have more CPU power, why not desing better UI so user can work faster/interact more effectively?

ie. skip the sacrifice of the original UI design caused by hardware limitation.

If Palm doesn't do this. Let's just say they fail to innovate in one MAJOR aspect of good PDA.

RE: I don't care much what it looks like
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:13:04 PM #
>>All the talk about simplicity of buttons, etc. Now that we have more CPU power, why not desing better UI so user can work faster/interact more effectively?

Like PocketPC? Do you think that Microsofts PDA allows people to 'work faster/interact more effectively'? I don't think so. I don't think taht 'more complex/more like desktop windows' = 'easier to use'. Now when PalmSource moves to multi-tasking (in 5.5 or 6 - i dont know the plan) we will need a new way of dealing with this at the interface level. As a developer, i would like to see some new, 'richer' controls added (ie: treeview, listview - dealing with tables in PalmOS now is just too much of a pain), and an updated look for existing controls (not just icons). Beyond this, it should be up to app developers to enhance their software to take advantage of new specs and offer appropriate interfaces.

RE: I don't care much what it looks like
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 3:38:44 PM #
not necessarily copying PPC, but some aspect of current Palm interface is definitely need improving. File organisation would be a good example.
RE: I don't care much what it looks like
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 3:16:29 AM #
By "scalable UI", I didn't mean that the graphics rescales, I mean that I can run the same app on different screens with different sizes and aspect ratios. Maybe "resizeable UI" would have been a better term. Right now, PalmOS applications need to be specially adapted for every screen size in order to take advantage of it, and that's a pain, both for developers and for users.

. . And the Hardware?

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 7:21:02 PM #
I curious to know what the hardware is going to look like. Anyone "in the know' on this?
RE: . . And the Hardware?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 10:30:31 PM #
yawn...gonna probably look like a repackaged m505.
RE: . . And the Hardware?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 10:36:25 PM #
They said the first OS5 device is going to be wireless, so my guess is it will be what people wanted over a year ago, an m515 with 320x320 screen and integrated Bluetooth for wireless (making the BT SD card irrelevant), except with an ARM processor. Same proprietary 'universal' connector, same substandard SD slot, maybe even a static discharge 'feature' to boot...
RE: . . And the Hardware?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 10:36:40 PM #
Probably exactly like an m515 with a 320x320 display and Bluetooth built in.

320x320 or more

danger @ 4/9/2002 10:43:47 PM #
It's public knowledge for anyone who attended PalmSource that the new OS supports not just 320x320 (double density), but higher... triple density, quad, etc.

Not sure why everyone - even people at PalmSource itself are commenting it supports just 160x160 and 320x320.

In theory you can run full tablet pc format hardware with HUGE resolutions on OS5.

RE: 320x320 or more
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/9/2002 10:56:16 PM #
Not quite. If you look at the drafts for the OS 5 SDK documentation, you'll discover that although the API is designed to be /extendable/ to triple-, quad-, etc. density displays in the future, OS 5 currently only supports single- and double-densities.
RE: 320x320 or more
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 12:07:49 AM #
an interesting question would be:

Is a square screen a common product? It seems to be the odd duck on the industry. Most product out there seems to be QVGA/HVGA/etc....

I mean will one day Palm producing a perfectly squre computer tablet at quadruple resolution? That would definitely look as comfy as holding a CD jewel box on single hand.


RE: 320x320 or more
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 8:38:34 AM #
Yes, it also supports a one and a half density, 240x240 the same as the HandEra 330 without virtual graffiti.

On the square screen question, you need to note that PalmSource talks about it in terms of screen densities, based around a 160x160 screen as the default/minimum density. These densities are mostly related to scaling original 160x160 apps and images between other densities. In theory (at least in the long term), I don't think that keeps you from having a non-square screens if you want, outside of issues of scaling old 160x160 apps.

RE: 320x320 or more
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 3:19:40 AM #
As long as layout is in terms of absolute pixels, developers will have to worry about every single device separately, and users can never be sure whether some application is going to work well on the new high resolution device they have. Pixel doubling is not the answer. What PalmOS needs is layout support in its GUI. It's absolutely sad that any platform sold in 2002 can still have layout as primitive as that found in PalmOS.

OS5 Still Misses the Mark

Who @ 4/10/2002 1:32:08 PM #
OS5.0 will be a disappointment. That's right, I said it.

Everything new in OS5 is already available in PalmOS devices currently on the market, including hi-res and multimedia capability. The only thing OS5.0 adds is ARM processors. And it is my guess that other bottlenecks in Palm hardware will cause the speed difference to be much smaller than people expect.

Furthermore, OS5.0 fails to include several important features that the PalmOS is currently lacking, such as a real filesystem, including seamless memory card (SD, MemStick) access, and multithreading/multitasking capability.

So it looks like we will have to wait until OS6.0 in order to see real innovation from Palm.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 1:52:53 PM #
Sorry, but OS 5 standardizes APIs for things like hi-res and audio that were not before. Developers will now be able to take better advantage of those features without fear that they are developing code that would be wasted in the future.

Palm has already demonstrated that OS 5 is faster than the current OS, and that is before any optimizations we will likely see in the future. I don't know what you expect Palm to provide. This is just an OS, and it all comes down to what application developers do with it. The current OS already has a real filesystem and seamless access to expansion media.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:19:21 PM #
That's not correct. PalmOS does not have a file system and the way it handles files/databases on memory cards is horrible. I am not a pocketpc user or fan but it can access applications and databases on the memory cards in a seamless way and if Palm does not implement something similar it would be a big mistake and will alienate corporate users.
RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 2:25:27 PM #
> PalmOS does not have a file system and the way it
> handles files/databases on memory cards is horrible

The Palm OS absolutlely does have a file system. VFS allows you to create, manipulate and delete files and directories. That is what a filesystem is. On the various platforms it works the same way with various media types like SD, CF, Memory Stick or whatever. If you dig around on the Palm website they discuss how VFS is designed to allow for other underlying filesystems like NFS and others to be supported though VFS. How applications take advantage (or more often fail to take advantage) of that support is up to the application developers. Complain to them, not Palm.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 4/10/2002 2:30:18 PM #
> The current OS already has a real filesystem and seamless access to expansion media.

What kind of crack are you smoking? There is absolutely NO seamless access to expansion media on current Palms. Certain programs and databases can only be run from main memory, and one must use hacks in order to make good use of expansion media. This is a far cry from seamless access.

And when did Palm demonstrate that OS5 is faster than the current OS? As I understand it there are only emulators running OS5, not real handhelds.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
RobZombie @ 4/10/2002 3:03:37 PM #
> Certain programs and databases can only be run from main memory

You are correct, *certain* programs do have problems. Poorly written ones. A large percentage have no problems.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
Ed @ 4/10/2002 3:07:29 PM #
One of the most frequently asked questions about OS 5 is, "How fast is it?" That's a difficult question because it depends partially on how fast the processor is. There are about twelve processors currently in the Palm OS Ready Program and these range from 18MHz to 1GHz.

Because many ARM-based chips are significantly faster than the Dragonball processors in current handhelds, the emulator will often be faster than current models. However, that isn't always the case. Using one processor to emulate another isn't easy and there will be some apps that actually run slower, like very code intensive ones.

On the other hand, code that has been recompiled for ARM-based chips is 61 times faster on a 200MHz ARM processor compared to a 33MHz Dragonball one. Displaying graphics can be twice as fast.

---
News Editor

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 3:13:45 PM #
> What kind of crack are you smoking? [ ... ] one must use hacks

You need to learn what an operating system does versus what applications do (and possibly some manners). Palm OS 4.x provides means to run appications from expansion cards, and it provides a standard filesystem API, VFS, to access and manipulate data on those cards. If an application fails to use or properly support those features, there is nothing the OS can do about it. Yes, there are clever hacks that help you get around those problems in the applications, but you should not need those hacks if applications were fixed to work properly with the OS.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 4/10/2002 3:15:04 PM #
> You are correct, *certain* programs do have problems. Poorly written ones. A large percentage have no problems.


With a true filesystem, it is not up to the application programmer to make a distinction between main memory and expansion memory this should be handled at the OS level. For example, when making a malloc() or write() call in C, it is not necessary to differentiate based on the the particular /dev being written to, because as long as the device has been properly mounted by the OS, you are good to go. Palm does not have a real file system so this is not the case. Thus it is up to the programmer to handle the OS's job. This is a bad thing.

The excuse that it is the programmer's fault is unconvincing. If anything it just illuminates a basic flaw in PalmOS.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 3:21:57 PM #
> With a true filesystem, it is not up to the application
> programmer to make a distinction between main memory
> and expansion memory

Despite typical comsumer confusion, expansion memory (flash memory cards) are not memory like RAM you would stick in your PC. Flash cards are really not any different than if you could stick a floppy disk in your PDA. Everything on the flash card is files, there is no memory. Conversely, I can guarantee that you will crash your PC if you pull the RAM out of it.

Main memory on current Palms is treated exactly like the RAM on your PC. It is where the currently loaded programs reside. That is memory, there is no filesystem. There apparently seems to be a RAM disk in the OS 5 emulator (which would be a filesystem) if that makes you feel any better.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 4/10/2002 3:58:27 PM #
> Despite typical comsumer confusion, expansion memory (flash memory cards) are not memory like RAM you would stick in your PC.

Yes you are correct, expansion memory is not treated like RAM, it is more akin to a floppy drive on a PC. I should have said read() and write(), not malloc() and write(), in my post. Nevertheless, the point remains the application programmer should not need to make a distinction between reading and writing to expansion media vs. built-in space. The fact that Palm requires this is a flaw, that is all I am saying. And since OS5 does not address this (as well as other issues), it can only be seen as an incremental upgrade of limited value.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 8:05:14 PM #
I agree somewhat with the original poster. In my view, Palm has a problem making good use of expansion cards. Just imagine that you purchased an office computer that had no ability to view the files on your external media (Zip disks [yuck], floppies, external drives, etc). Just assume that you could not find the individual files that might be on the external media until you openned Photoshop to look for Photoshop files, and Word to look for Word files, and Access to look for Access files. What a mess!

Isn't that what you have with Palm right now? No integrated "Windows Explorer"? Sure, some companies out there are making explorers for the Palm. However, shouldn't that be in the OS??? To that extent, I agree with the original poster.

Multithreading is the other thing that bugs the heck out of me with the current OS. I use Palm Reader and WordSmith to read books on the run. When I run across a word I don't know, I like to make a note of it to look up later. To do that, I have a simple HandBase database of unique words and definitions. Do you know how hard it is to stop one program, start the other, do what you have to do to paste in the new word, close that program and go back to your reading program? Yuck! It takes forever!

On the other hand, Palm has taken small steps in development, and I believe this has allowed them to maintain incredible stability in the underlying OS. If it's a question of stability over functionality, in the past I've leaned toward stability. However, I think it's time that Palm get a move on in development. Palm shouldn't rest on the laurels of simplicity and stability in this market. It's only the folks who read sites like this one who really can understand and implement an end-to-end solution with the Palm OS as it is today. I've been using Palms since the Palm Pro days. I use my Palm constantly. However, I even have trouble trying to figure out all of this card/VFS stuff. Do I need PiDirect? Do I need PowerRun? Do I need Launcher III? I really don't know, and I consider myself fairly up to date on all of this stuff! I love my Palm, but I want the company to fix some of this ASAP, or at least publish a book of how you fix the OS to work like other computers.

JBH

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 7:59:14 AM #
> Isn't that what you have with Palm right now? No
> integrated "Windows Explorer"? Sure, some companies
> out there are making explorers for the Palm.
> However, shouldn't that be in the OS???

No, a file browser should not be part of the OS (pretty much only Microsoft thinks otherwise). A file browser is an application, just like the default Palm launcher (or the datebook, memopad, etc.) is an application. Sounds like what you want is for PalmSource to include a file browser and/or allow you to replace the default launcher application. There is really no way to tell from looking at the OS 5 simulator if PalmSource intends to add those features or not. You should let PalmSource know if you want them, but they are not part of the OS.

The OS simulator is just for developers to test their applications and try out new features. It includes what are essentially the current Palm OS PIM apps with essentially no modification. Those may or may not be the apps that are included with OS 5 (though I wouldn't expect them to change much), but you are not going to be able to determine that from this developer's tool.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 10:33:09 AM #
Hmmm. My Windows XP notebook has a file browser in the OS. My office computer running Windows 2000 has a file browser in the OS. My old Macintosh computer had a file browser in the OS. Gosh, I think Linux has file browsers in the OS. Come to think of it, Unix even has a file browser in the OS. Hey, even in days before Microsoft programs like Dr. DOS had a stupid file browser in the OS. Hmmm. Even in pre-Macintosh days you could access the media on an Apple to see and move individual files from place to place. I think you'd call that a file browser, if I'm not mistaken. You know, even my FTP site has a file browser. Almost all of the programs I use have file browser support, but that is generally piggypacked off of the file browser build into the OS.

I'm curious. Exactly what OS do you know of that does not have a file browser built in??? Not Mac. Not old Apples. Not DOS. Not Dr.DOS. Not Windows. Not PocketPC. Not Linux. Not Unix. Not nothing that I know of. . . . I'm not sure about Pocket Linux (Sharp), but I make an educated guess that they've got one.

The key issue here is whether or not you can do with your Palm what you can do with your office computer. The current Palm philosophy seems to be that you can use individual programs, but the programs and the data for those programs must be segregated from other programs. You can't make a file with shortcuts to associated data of different types. That may be a simple approach that prevents a lot of programming concerns. However, it's not how people think.

JBH

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 12:32:15 PM #
Yes and those file browsers are all applications. They are not a part of the OS. Windows is the only OS I know of that crashes and burns if you wanted to replace the system included file browser. The lack of an included file browser application with the Palm OS (HandEra includes one BTW), is not a failing of the operating system itself nor a sign that Palm OS lacks a filesystem. All it means is that Palm is not including an application that you believe should be included.
RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 1:28:32 PM #
who cares about what theoritical minimum function of OS suppose to be, a customer wants to see and manipulate file transparantly and consistantly across all applications. We are talking about busy soccer mom as a PDA user here not a Unix geek heading ans IT department. She wants to flip quickly all her son's match picture between email apps, paint apps, and SD card. She maybe also probably want to stick the picture onto her word processing file.

And that cannot be achieved with current palm thinking.

PDA is an information tool, and a person has to jump all the hoops to play with all his information that tool is not efficient. And current Palm inplementation is in danger of turning into absolute tangled spagetti.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 2:18:37 PM #
> who cares about what theoritical minimum function of OS suppose to be

Because that is what this thread was originally about, that OS 5 lacks "a real filesystem, including seamless memory card access".

> We are talking about busy soccer mom as a PDA user here not a Unix geek [...]

Hate to tell you this, but the average PDA user (soccer mom) doesn't want to browse files in a flie browser at all. That is the whole benefit of using the Palm in the first place. You seem to be confusing them with the Unix geek.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 2:40:02 PM #
unless you have some radical paradigm of file object. Or super smart apps that know where to get user data file automatically. I think we will stuck with file browsing for all users.

ie. the soccer mom still needs to hunt down that picture file to be used in various different apps. She might have to hunt the picture file for email apps, or word processing apps to make and distribute simple flyer for eg.

and this situation will increase as more apps are interacting with each other and use common file. I am talking about user's data file here, not OS internal. And that is where file browser interface matter the most to user.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 4/11/2002 2:46:27 PM #
>>> Because that is what this thread was originally about, that OS 5 lacks "a real filesystem, including seamless memory card access".
---

Yes. And the point has been proven that OS5 indeed lacks a true filesystem including seamless memory card access.


>>> Hate to tell you this, but the average PDA user (soccer mom) doesn't want to browse files in a flie browser at all. That is the whole benefit of using the Palm in the first place. You seem to be confusing them with the Unix geek.
--

The average PDA user DOES want to be able to plug in a memory card, and read and write to it easily without having to use a third-party utility or having to remember which programs can be run from the card, which can't, what databases can be run from the card, etc. This functionality will not be present in OS5, rather it will still use the current, ghetto-ized memory card system.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 3:23:48 PM #
>> The average PDA user DOES want to be able to plug in a memory card, and read and write to it easily without having to use a third-party utility or having to remember which programs can be run from the card, which can't, what databases can be run from the card, etc. This functionality will not be present in OS5, rather it will still use the current, ghetto-ized memory card system. <<

Exactly! I want the ability to put my related Quicksheet files with related WordSmith files, just like I do on my desktop. That functionality is lacking in the Palm. The Palm paradigm will hit a brick wall in the very, very near future if Palm does does not realize that people will reject the device if it does not "feel" familiar to them. To me, the lack of seamless individual data file manipulation brings the entire system right up to that brick wall. The system is not enough like what people have on their laptops, desktops and office computers.

And I don't care whether the file explorer is embedded in the OS or is its own program. The important thing is that the software is there, in the box, and accessible by programs running on the device. Today, the software ain't in the box. I have to go look for it on the web and try to find ways to hack into VFS cards to do some of what I want to do. I shouldn't have to do that. Today, I'm using a USB card reader, and I use my Windows Explorer to read and write to the card and move things around. Life should be easier! I should not be calling on Windows to a function that I say should be inherent in the Palm, whether it be in the OS or just on the device. Today, it's missing.

JBH

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 4:10:43 PM #
You know I think this problem is a remnant from that "connected organizer" way of thinking created by that Yankerski elf keebler.

let's see..
PIM = personal information manager

information would be anything that the user feels is needed. (we have moved beyond calender and to do list, mp3, office files, pictures etc etc are consider personal information too. The day of 86kb of address book are over. It's now 100+ mbs of mp3. Deal with it)

PDA = personal digital assistance.

it should assist manipulation of digital information seamlesly not burdening user with hassles such as learning myriad third party file browser.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 6:51:18 PM #
> And the point has been proven that OS5 indeed lacks a
> true filesystem including seamless memory card access.

We are right back to the top again. That is absolute bull. No such thing "has been proven".

The ability for applications to load/save/choose files from card is completely the application's responsibility. The operating system can only provide the means for applications to do that. The operating system does that now, not OS 5, NOW.. Application developers have failed almost completely (one can probably count the exceptions on one hand) to take advantage of it.

If you want a file browser on your Palm, get FileMan or McFile or one of those apps. Ask Palm to include one as an app with the OS 5 release. I already said this once, but there is no way of knowing what applications Palm will include (or how the existing ones might change) with the OS 5 release. Looking at this developer test tool (OS 5 Simulator) is absolutely the wrong way of determining what applications might be included with the OS 5 release.

It is clear from the posts here that you (in general terms) fail realize how application developers have utterly failed to use the OS provided file system support for expansion media.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 9:37:07 PM #
>> It is clear from the posts here that you (in general terms) fail [to] realize how application developers have utterly failed to use the OS provided file system support for expansion media.<<

You fail to realize that the failure here is not the failure of utterly all application developers. There have been no tools present to allow developers to implement file management. You have to create the solution yourself. Some have started to develop what does not exist inherently in the OS, but the solutions and their success have been sporadic, at best.

I heard the lack-of-file-management-system complaint a few years ago before expansion cards were really in vogue. I didn't worry too much about it then. However, now I realize that external cards aren't that useful if you can only store limited information on them and you can't do what you have done for years with floppies and zip disks and every other kind of removable media out there.

So, back to the point of this thread -- Palm's core concept of file management prevents the implementation of a flexible file system, and development is suffering from that. This needs to change immediately. For many reasons, I believe the solution needs to be inherent in the OS. The solution could be a separate program, but keep reading and see what you think.

I own a copy of CodeWarrior for Palm. I've only played with small programs as a hobby. However, do you know what you would have to do [at least as a hobbyist] to write the routines to access cards and move things around on them visually? Creating the forms alone would drive you nuts. Then you would have to worry about creating something that would work with VFS cards and CF cards [Handera] and then you would have to come up with methods of syncronizing the information on the cards over to the desktop, which would require creation of conduits for each program, etc., etc., etc. The end user would expect to see something in every program that looked similar to what they see on their desktop, so you would need to copy what someone else had done, or you would need to create something so good that everyone else copied you.

This would not be a venture for the faint at heart. Even the best programmers in the world have only done fairly reasonable jobs so far in creating such a solution.

And just imagine if you had to include all of this complex code in every little program that had a database . . . . Well, we'd all be whimpering about the lack of RAM on the Palms and the sluggishness created by the code bloat if that were the case.

Of course, a real file explorer could be a separate program running on the Palm that is then accessed by individual programs as needed. . . . Oh, wait, that'd require multi-tasking, wouldn't it? I mean, you can do a global find from within your program that accesses the databases from another, but actually turning on another program and using its forms and code from within your program -- I think that's one aspect of multi-tasking.

The following conclusions are easily reached:

1) There is a serious problem here

2) The fault does not lie with every Palm developer in the world and

3) The solution must come from Palm, and quickly.

JBH

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 4/11/2002 10:00:53 PM #
>>> It is clear from the posts here that you (in general terms) fail realize how application developers have utterly failed to use the OS provided file system support for expansion media.
---


Did you not understand when I explained why it is not the responsibility of the application programmer to distinguish between built-in space and expansion space when reading and writing data? Any OS in which this is necessary is ghetto. Once any expansion device has been properly mounted by the OS, writing to it and reading from it should be seamless this is the case for any OS with a real filesystem. A third party application such as FileMan or McFile should not be necessary. The fact that memory card access is not seamless is a flaw.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 2:30:50 AM #
wait, I thought OS 5.0 would support multi-thread and come with new file system.
RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 7:51:11 AM #
> However, do you know what you would have to do [at
> least as a hobbyist] to write the routines to access
> cards and move things around on them visually?
> Creating the forms alone would drive you nuts.

Alone? There is nothing to do other than create the forms, which is not as difficult as you claim. Once you have the forms, you can reuse them. Though I do agree that Palm should provide standard file selection dialogs. Someone could just as simply create a shared library to do this though.

> Then you would have to worry about creating
> something that would work with VFS cards and CF
> cards [Handera]

They work exactly the same, they all use VFS. Nothing to worry about.

> you would have to come up with methods of
> syncronizing the information

Palm is developing new synchronization software. It is unknown (at least to me) at this point what it supports. Still, even the meaning of synchronizing info on cards is non-trivial and a developer must decide what they want their app to do, if anything, with info on card(s), and write software to support that.

> Even the best programmers in the world have only
> done fairly reasonable jobs so far in creating such
> a solution.

Please! Probably less than a dozen developers have attempted a real solution. Dumb hacks that try to stick with the status quo don't count.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 8:30:41 AM #
> it is not the responsibility of the application
> programmer to distinguish between built-in space
> and expansion space when reading and writing data?
> Any OS in which this is necessary is ghetto.

Are you the person who made the malloc(), read(), write() comment? Think about it. Maybe the confusion is that there is no built in space as you want to call it, data/programs on the Palm device itself are loaded into execuatble memory. Nearly every OS I am aware of makes that distinction. Expansion cards are not memory. There is a RAM disk in the OS 5 simulator. I am repeating myself.

> Once any expansion device has been properly mounted
> by the OS, writing to it and reading from it should
> be seamless this is the case for any OS with a real
> filesystem.

It already does that.

> A third party application such as FileMan or McFile
> should not be necessary.

These file browser/management applications use the real filesystem that you claim isn't there. How else do you think they work?

Sorry, but I don't have any more time for this argument. It is clear that each of you understand some things fairly well, but you are looking at it through the user interface view and do not see much of what is even in the current OS that is going unused by nearly all developers.

When I say that just a scant few developers are even attempting to use the filesystem support provided in the OS, I mean it. We are talking in the low tens out of tens of thousands of Palm OS apps. If you are unhappy with how one of your applications works with data on cards, tell the application developer about it. Palm cannot fix it for them.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 9:53:08 AM #
>> If you are unhappy with how one of your applications works with data on cards, tell the application developer about it. Palm cannot fix it for them.<<

You must work for Palm. No one else would suggest that every developer in the world must create their own novel solution to this underlying issue without some lead work by the company that build the OS. People want an out-of-the-box, end-to-end solution, and Palm does not offer that currently. Attempts to really "use" the expansion cards turns into an Internet equivalent to the Quest for the Holy Grail, trying to find the mystical and arguable non-existent perfect file browser. Unfortunately, no one has yet been able to provide what the company has thus far failed to address. People want a solution IN THE BOX. You can't blame every developer in the world for not developing something that is not in the box. It's Palm's job to put stuff in the box, and if every developer in the world is just ignorant of the company's perfect file system and expansive expansion capabilities, then the company should do something to show them the light, by putting something in the box! Palm should add file browser capability to some stupid core program like the Memo Pad and then make the file browser routines and forms freely available.

JBH

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/13/2002 8:00:17 AM #
"Palm should add file browser capability to some stupid core program like the Memo Pad and then make the file browser routines and forms freely available."

If that is your main complaint, you are making a big deal out of nothing. First, I am certain that Palm will do exactly that. Second, it is fairly trivial for developers to do themselves in the first place. You are still taking something that is essentially completely on the application developer's hands and placing the blame on Palm for not implmenting some trivial part.

RE: OS5 Still Misses the Mark
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/15/2002 12:40:34 AM #
Well, I have a sony clie (n760c) and as far as I know all sony devices include a file browsing utility called MS Gate. It shows the there is a directory heirarchy on the cards BUT the fact remains that with out hacks, the OS cannot launch apps from the card without copying them to memory first. That is what I would like to see fixed.

When is OS6 coming out?

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 4:53:51 PM #
OS5 does look like a letdown, and sevearl people have mentioned OS6, so when is an educated guess for the release date on that?

Looks like I wont upgrade to an immediate OS5 handheld like I had thought I would. My S320 is a great workhorse for me now, but when will the real innovations come?

RE: When is OS6 coming out?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 6:32:52 PM #
I don't get you people. Based on this screen shot you are all saying that OS 5 is a letdown? This can only be because you have fabricated yr own idea of what to expect - despite the fact that Palm and others have TOLD US what was going to be in Palm OS 5 for months now. For the tenth time, here is the plan:

-OS 5: move to ARM processors to allow CPU speeds up to 1GHZ, native support of hi-res and improved Audio (good 'cause prior to this PalmOS had no real audioto speak of), SSl and other encryption. This sounds like 'real innovations' to me. Or do you have a PPC that runs at 1Ghz with 320x320 color screen?

-OS 6: Multi-tasking(32-bit), redesigned interface.
Anyway, my main point is that we already new what was in OS 5 months ago (and you would have to if you had been following PIC), so what are you guys b*tching about?

RE: When is OS6 coming out?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 6:32:52 PM #
Exactly!! I wasn't expecting a revamped UI - so i am just pleased to see that they've redone to graphics in hi-res. Looks great.
RE: When is OS6 coming out?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 7:51:10 PM #
I know what the plan is for the new OS', but in your rant about my "bitching" you failed to answer a simple question: What is an EDUCATED guess on when OS6 will come out?

Your right about me having a false idea of what OS5 would be like, but I was hoping for something more then what appears to be on the way. Lets cry and get exasperated, want to?

RE: When is OS6 coming out?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 8:17:06 PM #
OMAP run on 1Ghz? is that true? For some reason I don't even know TI has the manufacturing capability to do it.
RE: When is OS6 coming out?
Ed @ 4/10/2002 10:18:38 PM #
When I spoke with Mike Mace from PalmSource a couple months ago, he said they were hoping to have the next version of the operating system out 6 to 9 months after OS 5. That puts it around the first quarter 2003.

BTW, don't get too set on it being called "OS 6". As far as I know, they haven't officially picked a name.

---
News Editor

RE: When is OS6 coming out?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 2:07:34 AM #
>>"OMAP run on 1Ghz? is that true? For some reason I don't even know TI has the manufacturing capability to do it."

The ARM architecture that Palm OS 5 will run on is not a particular brand of processor. Palm compliant ARM processors are being manufactured by Motorola, Intel, and TI (others?). As for 1Ghz, it was reported here on PIC during PalmSource conference:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2965

RE: When is OS6 coming out?
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/12/2002 2:15:14 AM #
you are basing your 1Ghz claim on THAT slide? It's very laughable. If believing Palm's slide is true, we should have camera, GPS, modem and Wi-Fi SD card by now. Instead of BT card that just barely work with no application.

Palm couldn't care less if what they put on slide describing the future of other corporation product is real or not. It sounds good, the'll put it.


Palm Marketing Slide.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/
images/img_PS02_KN1_Future_L.JPG

PS. It's pretty amusing re-reading a slide where Palm is talking about 6 years into the future, when they can barely show a clear roadmap 2 yrs into the future.

Any word on 4K Memo Limit Removal for OS5 2003???!!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/10/2002 6:51:01 PM #
Now that'd be REAL innovation!!!!
RE: Any word on 4K Memo Limit Removal for OS5 2003???!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 4/11/2002 7:55:51 AM #
4K for memo is okay. Read my lips - IT IS FOR MEMO not DOCs! you want to write a novel, you use a Doc program. Get a life.
RE: Any word on 4K Memo Limit Removal for OS5 2003???!!!
TDS @ 4/11/2002 10:10:56 AM #
I really think that I see the original posters point. The 4K limitation also extends to the notes that can be attached to calander items and contacts. It would be very nice in the contact list to be able to Journal a year or so of conversations, etc... with a client right in the note field. As it is, we can only right a few paragraphs. I am not talking about dictation of conversations here, I am talking about "April 11th, 2002. Roger purchased 12 new computers and a server...etc...) May 15th - Implemented a new firewall etc..." This would allow the users who need it to look at their contacts and see what work has been performed over the course of a year. I agree thast not everyone would need this feature, but it would help some of us.
The same goes for the calander. I use it to schedule jobs for my staff, and some descriptions of the jobs get rather lengthy. I have run out of space before...
Doug

Dominance=Flashy Graphics? Pahlease

I.M. Anonymous @ 4/13/2002 7:03:23 AM #
For all the people who think that the way that a company maintains dominance is by sudden and quick changes I say look at all of the case studies and you'll see a trend, and the trend is that sudden and quick will freak your customer out, alienate your previous customers, and confuse the marketplace. All of the lasting companies who have dominance have established one trend, and that is to stay solid and stable and change relatively slowly.

I remember people talking the same way when Palm didn't have a color device - before the IIIc people were saying that Palm would fail as a company if they didn't release a color device and yet with several color devices on their side (including other vendors) the black and white devices dominate.

Business users want results, not flash.

-Mike

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