Comments on: Sony Announces PEG-T650C in Japan

I think when OS5 device shipped, some companies will
have BT built in.

ted

Matter of opinion....I have 802.11b at home and would prefer this over Bluetooth......

until battery life drops by at least 20-30% (my guess based on power needed for 802.11b vs. BT)

until your clie is out of range by 100-200% (my guess based on range limitations of BT vs 802.11b)

802.11b is for wireless Local Area networks... and it works great... its higher power, but faster and longer ranged. If your connecting to an existing wireless network 802.11b is probably the way to go.

Bluetooth is for wireless personal networks... linking your phone to a headset, or your pda to your phone... its limited to 30ft range but its cheap to make (once it gets going) low power and designed to not only link to a network but link to alot of non computing devices like headsets and such.

So if your at home or work and need access to your network... then 802.11 fits the bill... if your on the road and need connectivity to the internet then bluetooths the tool for the job.

do your ipaq sporting friends tease palms?
to run the massive amounts of applications (10?) that support it?

get real.

a 320x320 screen, integrated memory card reader and MP3 in such a small package walks on basically every other competing device, with possible exception to the casios.

if grafiti goes, put a keyboard in. the screen's fine.

The rumors about this one really intrigued me. MP3 is cool, but I know I wouldn't use it beyond it's gadget function. I am really impressed though by ActionNames and WordSmith with the NR70's Virtual Graffiti. I was really hoping this one would have that. (I'm not terribly fond of the clamshell design.)

Well... maybe the next one... (Though by that time I will probably have broken down and bought this one...)

-Biff K

Sorry for the multiple posts, but me and the last guy must have posted at just about the same time (wasn't there when I first looked.)

Kind of a harsh reaction to dashed hopes! Yes there are few (but growing) number of applications that use it but:

You get a keyboard that does not have to be taped on (IE Fitaly Stamp) and does not take up space on the screen.

You get a (small but handy) feature where a shadow of your line is drawn when you write graffiti (makes your graffiti more accurate.)

Have you actually SEEN WordSmith, ActionNames or any other of the "10 applications" that support it actually on the NR70 screen? I don't have one, but I spent an hour annoying sales folk at CompUSA while I loaded WordSmith and ActionNames to see how much more scree real-estate you get... you get ALOT of screen real-estate. You can just about fit a whole page of a book in the WordSmith doc reader page, this is far better for e-book viewing.

You can see the graffiti area at NIGHT. I got the lighted stylus for this on my good old S320 and would much rather it were backlit.

You can add a skin to it to make your palm look "cooler."

It looks really "cool!" And if all you wanted was function, you could get by with a M100.

Cheers!

-Biff K

C'mon. You have to admit that what Sony is doing is a little crazy these days. They have introduced two non-standard video formats, and are not favoring one over the other. That's great for innovation, but the problem is that there is now a slight problem developing software for these new formats -- and software is the chief advantage of the Palm OS. With Sony's new formats, the already existing formats of 240x320 and 160x160, and the upcoming OS5 format, whatever that is, there is bound to be a lot of 1) market confusion and 2) lack of compatibility. Niether is good for Palm, nor good for Sony in the long run. I won't buy a Sony if there's not going to be software that takes advantage of the new screens, and if the existing software has problems running on it.

Ultimately, I agree that a soft graffiti area is better. Let's face it more display is better whenever you have an application running I wish Sony would stand firmly behind that hi-res standard and push it with all their corporate might, so that it becomes the de facto standard for OS5 units.

Astraware, StandAlone, Datebk5 (as long as he doesn't run into any unforeseen problems), SplashData (they all use SONY's!), DDH Software, MobiPocket, HandsHigh... not to mention excellent apps that already support it like McFile, AcidImage, and iSilo.

I wouldn't worry too much about NR series support. From the responses I got when I inquired with the developers of my favorite apps, many of them are switching to the SONY platform anyway! I think SONY support is only going to continue to grow... I could be biased though -)

Josh

This is true before Sony.

But it is not true anymore.
Sony's screen is the best. And its form factor and
its features is the best too.

Don't worry about the software, they will come.

Sony is doing all the right things so far for Palm
platform.

ted

nuff said

DLM

M505 had a lit graffiti area (non-virtual of course) but no one seemed to notice.

Well, the backlight was so dim it was hard to tell it even WAS lit.

Actually, I did. That was my only regret about going from the m505 to the T615C. I noticed it right away. In total darkness, I could used my m505, I don't have that option with the Sony T615C. Oh well. I'm holding out for the OS5 units anway.

FWIW

DLM

Honestly. Do any of the people who post stuff like this actually READ what sites like PIC have said on this subject? These are not two seperate and incompatible formats - they use the same API!! In other words - 320 x 320 Sony compatible software will work fine in 320 x 320 on the NR series - it just leaves the grafitti area in place. They use the same API, it's just that virtual graffiti is a seperate API issue. If i am writting software that can take advantage of virtual grafitti, i have my code check to see if the device it is running on supports this feature, and if it does then i can use the above mentioned API (or any of the native Palm OS UI APIs) to make use of the extra space, by extending the 'y' values beyond 320. It is a bit of a pain in the ass to have to do extra code to support the new feature - but the great thing about Palm OS is that if i decide its not worth it - then it will still run fine on the device (in this case sony) but without the feature. Whats the problem? Why are you b*tching? If you don't want one - don't get one. Its not as if developers headaches about supporting this feature are going to effect applications on devices that don't have this feature. So don't get one. Why troll around complaining loudly about how "Sony is evil cause they hack the OS! Blah, blah blah....."? Dont you have anything better to do?

"The T615 does not even with the brightness turned to highest. I own both, I prefer the m515 for extendad
day usage because I can use it under the sunlight"

Alan
----
Read your manuals before you ask!!

The NR screen is great and is better than the T615.

I think people would give the T650 screen better grades if it was also larger, but people are confusing the issue of screen size and the issue color quality into the same disucssion.

email me at cndamann@hotmail.com if you have any questions about ordering the NR70 into Canada (the only model available in Canada is the 70v for some unknown reason).

Idiot

Even the m515 suffers from average battery life. And an NR70 in a T615C shell will set records for poor battery life, since Sony will have to go with an even smaller battery.

Battery technology is moving pretty slowly compared to the technology of the devices that they are supposed to power -- you can rest assured that what's in your NR is the best battery solution that Sony could feasibly implement. They want to make the ultimate PDA as much as you want to buy one, maybe even moreso.

Future Palms will have even worse battery life - that much is certain. Just look at PPCs. Or do you think that the battery makers aren't supplying PPCs with their best technology because they hate Microsoft? Or maybe the PPC OS somehow makes the hardware draw 50% more power?

There is no magic battery solution that will make your 3.8" color screen, 66Mhz PDA last as long as your old 2.2" monochrome 16Mhz Palm V. Sorry to say.

Actually, because of all the bloat and overhead of the PPC OS, that is exactly the case.

8 to 10 hours is better than average. I've been able to get 15 hours and 51 minutes of runtime before the first low battery warning, which equals 31 days of average use.

oh if you add feature, it will be BIG, bloated, and no battery life.

and out come big color screen, than small and thin while maintaining all the big screen and processor.

next come the battery. I am willing to bet soon PPC will come out with 10-12 hrs battery straight.

There are some do it yourself battery replacement for iPAQ that would double the life to about 10-12 hrs continuous already. (That would bring it par to m505 with that dim, tiny and wash out screen)

so how about it eh? innovation is not just reinventing old whining and excuse like Palm Inc does, but actually solving the technical problems.

Ah yes, have soldering iron, will travel. Or you could go with the $80 external battery packs, which are the same size as a Palm and attach with a cable. That must look cute and professional. Here's the iPaq stats on tested battery life:

3.5 hours - Normal use with medium backlight
2.5 hours - Normal use with high backlight
1.5 hours - Normal use with Microdrive
1.5 hours - Wireless web browsing

As far as the discontinued 505 screen, yes it was dim, but some of the iPaq users I know keep their screen just as dim to save battery life. And they still use it like a real Palm. And they still have to recharge every night. Ironic, is it not?

when this device is released, its gonna cost $449 with its current feature set. more features would increase the price, thus forcing it to compete with the NR70...sony doesnt want that.

I prefer color screen and faster response time.

Do I wish M515 has longer battery life? I do.
But give me the choice of Vx and M515, I will
always pick M515.

In fact, consumers already give their votes. Most people prefer color screens.

ted

I wonder if we are going to include extension cord weight on the new models...

Even the m515 suffers from average battery life. And an NR70 in a T615C shell will set records for poor battery life, since Sony will have to go with an even smaller battery.

Battery technology is moving pretty slowly compared to the technology of the devices that they are supposed to power -- you can rest assured that what's in your NR/T-series is the best battery solution that Sony could feasibly implement. They want to make the ultimate PDA as much as you want to buy one, maybe even moreso.

Future Palms will have even worse battery life - that much is certain. Just look at PPCs. Or do you think that the battery makers aren't supplying PPCs with their best technology because they hate Microsoft? Or maybe the PPC OS somehow makes the hardware draw 50% more power?

There is no magic battery solution that will make your 3.8" color screen, 66Mhz PDA last as long as your old 2.2" monochrome 16Mhz Palm V. Sorry to say.

Your point about future Palms having worse battery isnt valid. The following is taken from the recent ZDNet article at http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-920395.html

"Microsoft has made big improvements in Pocket PC power efficiency over, say, a laptop. But a Palm device carrying out the same functionality as a Pocket PC will still use about half the power," said Kyle Harper, business manager for Motorola's Wireless and Baseband Systems Group.

Gordon in Edinburgh
*Sony, or not Sony?: that is the question*

(Well DOH.........what functionality are we talking about? for each single thing palm can do there are 100 tings more PPC can do)

...and let the brawl begin about yes but my palm can pick my nose in two taps less than your PPC.

What? The motorola guy was talking about Palm OS 5 running on the ARM architecture. So tell me troll - name ONE thing that a PPC can do (aside from waste system resources) that a Palm OS 5 device wont be able to do. Just one goddamned thing. I use and like PPCs on a regular basis - but look forward to PalmOS5 devices that will have the same capability but (hopefully) use less power, AND do so in an OS that is lighter and more intuitive.

I think the 66MHz Dragonball was announced at PalmSource wasn't it? Sony put it in the NR series which was announced, like - a month and half later. Seemed pretty quick to me.

It is amazing that how people don't pay attention
to CPU speed on Palm.

I own a Vx and M515. The difference on both
Palms make a huge difference to me. I won't
go back to a Vx after I use M515.

A faster CPU makes many applications pratical too,
Like maps, some games, etc.

In my opinion, T650 is a big improvement over T615.

ted

Get a clue--not everyone wants what Sony is offering, or else Sony would be selling more devices than Palm!

For instance, I want a device with: color, industry-standard expansion, small/light weight, and low cost. With Sony, I can meet at most 2 out of those 4 criteria (color and size/weight)... there's only one Palm OS device at this point that offers all 4 of those--and it's not from Palm, either.

The SuperVZ (66MHz Dragonball) was announced around June 2001. I'd figure by January 2002 at the latest, Motorola would have had sufficient quantity to supply Sony.

"Sony is first with 66 mhz. Of course they had to wait a little bit for the price of the CPU to come down-they want to make money you know."

That wasn't my point. My point was the time it took from the announcement of the SuperVZ for Sony to actually have that chip on store shelves. It took a while and it will take some time with the ARM chips. OS5 may be ready by the end of summer, but I doubt Sony's hardware will.

"Get a clue--not everyone wants what Sony is offering, or else Sony would be selling more devices than Palm!"

I agree with you except that sales is not the best indication of what people want, especially in this complicated PDA market. The regular world still refers to them as "Palm Pilots" (including PPC's). We are all too familiar with this situation:

You: "I can do XXXXXXX with my PDA..."
Other person: *Blank stare*
You: "... err my Palm Pilot."
Other person: "Ohhhh! Why didn't you say that in the first place?"

And to make it worse those sales people at Best Buy and Circuit City aren't the brightest bunch so imagine when someone comes in asking for a "Palm Pilot". They will probably walk out with a Palm and not some crazy looking "Clie" (whatever the hell that is) from Sony. (Unfair) Advantage Palm.

ssummer

~Cal~

~Cal~"

So just because they were first, they deserve all the credit for the innovations put forth by Handspring, HandEra and Sony? Doesn't sound fair to me.

Fact is, a lot of what makes "Palm Pilots" as popular as they are today has nothing to do with Palm. Sure, Palm laid the groundwork, but it's the "other makers" that built the house and Palm has just been sponging off them ever since.

Take a Business 101 course and you'll quickly learn that market share doesn't always correlate with what the "average Joe wants". You should know better.

ssummer

If the current trend continues, Sony will pass
Palms in north America, and Europe too.

Funny....I always called them diapers and refrigerators....

Ok, that has to be the winner of the dumbest comment of the day award. There wouldn't even have been a house to build if PalmOS wasn't there for the licensees to innovate with! Yes, the other makers, as you call them, have contributed much with their innovations, but in the overall picture, Palm branded handhelds are still the vast majority. To say Palm has an unfair advantage is completely absurd. They worked on PalmOS and Palm PDA's for years before anyone else even bothered to try. They didn't lay the groundwork, they practically built the house. The others just put (very impressive) window dressing on it.

I cannot emphasize the importance of reading BEFORE replying. Try it some time. When I admitted that Palm put down the groundwork, for you to restate it was just wasting everyone's time.

"Yes, the other makers, as you call them, have contributed much with their innovations, but in the overall picture, Palm branded handhelds are still the vast majority."

Your grasp of the obvious is simply amazing. You might want to also READ my comment about market share vs. user wants.

"To say Palm has an unfair advantage is completely absurd."

The average person will most likely think that "Palm Pilots" (the layman's term for PDAs) are made by Palm and that if it doesn't have PALM written on the front then it's not a "Palm Pilot". That's unfair.

When the average person goes into a store asking for a "Palm Pilot", they most likely will be shown a PALM or will feel they are not getting a real "Palm Pilot" if it doesn't say PALM on it. That's an advantage.

Unfair + advantage = unfair advantage. Did I dumb it down enough for you yet?

"They worked on PalmOS and Palm PDA's for years before anyone else even bothered to try. They didn't lay the groundwork, they practically built the house.
The others just put (very impressive) window dressing on it."

Do you want me to give Palm a medal for being the first? Do they also deserve a medal for incorporating everyone else's innovations and not adding anything to the pot? If it wasn't for all this "window dressing" (must be a glass house if you call it just window dressing) we would all probably be using a Palm that was not much more than a Vx with a new choice of color face plates or something...

ssummer

Can you please offer a source?

All that's been reported is that PalmSOURCE is including multimedia support in OS5. Nothing I've seen has indicated Palm has promised ANYTHING in its OS5 models, let alone MP3 playback.

So please, offer a source, or you'll be consigned to appearing as one of those dumb-ass d**kheads who shoot their mouths off with no rhyme or reason, just ignorance.

Who are your sources that Palm will never produce a model with built-in MP3? Does the teacher know you are using the school computer to post foul language?

Oh, please! Go buy this device then, since you obviously know what Palm will be doing for their OS 5 devices. We certainly wouldn't want you to think twice about your purchase.

This means the screen size of T650C is different from the NR series, not from T615C. I suppose it should be the same size as on a T615C.

It says 12.5mm as the thickness

I have used it successfully with a USB Bluetooth adapter. I just installed all the PRC's from the CD (except the Japaneses overlays). I posted my detailed experiences in the Forums.

Now all I need is a cool CDMA2000 bluetooth phone like the LG VX9000 (supposed to be out in June) ...

Not very useful.

ted

Not very useful either.

Such a "sleeve" feature is precisely why the first Ipaqs were so largely criticized. While the Ipaq sold incredibly well, there were still many who passed it up in favor of having a PDA with industry standard expansion (i.e. CF or SD/MMC, or both) built into the unit.

its just getting worse and worse... they cant even make one with replaceable battery.

Exactly. So my question is - why not give a little on the 'thin design' and give us a slightly larger battery? I wouldn't mind a couple of millimeters or so extra (.1 inch) if it doubled my battery life.

If it's just getting worse and worse then why is Sony's share climbing?

Sure - there are trade-offs. But one look at that 320x320 screen and you are hooked.

Jim Kershaw

Im not anti-sony or palm fanatic. i just want my next purchase to be what i want to be. but keep it up sony...just dont forget battery life please...

For normal Palm application usage, it should be about same as T615, or about 5 hrs.

"The only easy day was yesterday"

Even the m515 suffers from average battery life. And an NR70 in a T615C shell will set records for poor battery life, since Sony will have to go with an even smaller battery.

Battery technology is moving pretty slowly compared to the technology of the devices that they are supposed to power -- you can rest assured that what's in your NR/T-series is the best battery solution that Sony could feasibly implement. They want to make the ultimate PDA as much as you want to buy one, maybe even moreso.

Future Palms will have even worse battery life - that much is certain. Just look at PPCs. Or do you think that the battery makers aren't supplying PPCs with their best technology because they hate Microsoft? Or maybe the PPC OS somehow makes the hardware draw 50% more power?

There is no magic battery solution that will make your 3.8" color screen, 66Mhz PDA last as long as your old 2.2" monochrome 16Mhz Palm V. Sorry to say.

EXACTLY! and it will be our problem on fitting it on a case, but at least we have an option! how hard is it to have a removable battery? nokia has done it a long time ago why cant sony do that? the best they came up with is a travel charger! stooopidd

Actually, I would very much like the 650 if the battery life were better. I agree with the other poster, make it a little thicker and put in a better battery.

I will say the most of the time it doesn't matter (during the week it's in the cradle much of the day.) But a shorter battery life would be a pain on weekends.

My 760 lasts me pretty much through the weekend, that battery is good enough for me.

Dear Mr. Rogers,

Can you please do me a huge favor. Since you're like from the future and all that, how's about you tellin them techs over at sony how to power their new and improved Power eating devices (T650, NR, etc) . Maybe they can use some of your super high-tech inter-stellar power generating technology or somethin.....

Anyway, I am ranting because I am upset, I'm also very intelligent (3.8 in college), and I'm no where near being an old man(25 to be exact). SO why don't you get on your space ship and go back to the planet Garcon or whatever. I have a right to speak my mind about a new and improved product that I'm not too excited about.

They will catch Palm if the current trend continue.

Sony only enter this market less than 2 years.

Palm has worked on this market for 6 or more years.
Success doesn't happen over night. Just like
Jeff's Zoomer is a bomb.

ted

Also, I think Sony has done fine, innovation-wise. My problem, as with several other posters including the original, is that an m100 will do everything I need an organiser for. Vibrating alarms help with this function (as does a louder speaker). Prolonged battery life, slim design, light weight are all I really want. That's because I don't want a multimedia entertainment machine. Those that do can buy an NR70V or a laptop, since they are about the same size and weight.

Of all the products I have seen, I'm most excited about the Treo 180g. Imagine an m100 with a built-in phone! That's genuine innovation! Now if only the cost would come down to that of an m100 ($100) plus a phone ($100), I'd buy one in a shot.

Finally, proof of intelligence is if you can make a sensible point without providing personal information that trolls can come back and hang you with later )

This is really a sign of old man loser syndrome, can you find me a laptop that is the same size and weight of the NR70V??

Just go get an m515 like I did and you'll be very happy. It has fairly good battery life compared to the sony. I keep mine on low light setting and I get one week between charges. It's also light and compact which fits my needs just fine. Stop that ranting, its only inviting more idiot sony defenders to rip you to shreds.

Do you think that PPC makers are just incompetent and simply overlook battery life issues when designing their PDAs? The fact of the matter is that the more powerful the device is, the more power it will need -- thus it ***will*** suffer from lower battery life than other, lesser models.

If you want Palm V battery life, GET A PALM V. If you want a machine with the highest res screen on the market, along with the fastest PalmOS processor out there, PREPARE TO PAY FOR IT IN BATTERY LIFE.

That is a downside but with a car cigarette lighter charger when you are away from home or leaving it in the cradle every night when you are at home, you will be fine and get a full day's heavy duty use out of one full charge. I average 4 hours of Palm use on a busy day. I use batterylog to monitor the actual "on" time.

If I remember *correctly*, my PalmVx was only a little better than the NR70 but it was not much better: I still had to charge it every night to ensure enough juice for the next day. It would go for 2 or 3 days, but only if little used.

I agree somewhat with alot of the poster's points. I do hope that there will always be a market for long lasting units and even for black and white, but once you taste the clarity of a bright and hi-rez screen it will be difficult to go back. Perhaps after a few more months with the NR70 I will wax nostalgic for the "good old days" of disposable battery units that lasted a week.

One thing is for certain though: batteries will get smaller and more powerful and processors will get smaller and more efficient. 10 years from now we will be complaining about a whole new set of things with regards to PDA's. It's inevitable and irreversable that more and more will be packed into PDA's.

Hello? Have you seen the NR70V?

The 650 is obviously meant as an update to an already excellent design. I'd say 66 MHz CPU, MP3 playback, and the brighest, most vibrant screen you can get in a PDA (the same as the NR70 sans virtual graffiti) are worthwhile improvements.

Also, it's the only 4.x ounce PDA that can play MP3s.

My question is about battery life. The 5.0 ounce Toshiba e310 PPC reportedly get between 2 and 7 hours of battery life. Anyone have first-hand experience with it compared to the 615, which supposedly gets between 5 and 11 hours?

Yeah, yeah I know it's discontinued but there are still plenty of new ones out there that can be had for a price close to the new Treo 90...

ssummer

Why shouldn't I deny what isn't true? The fact is, most of these innovations had already been done by various other licensees. Sony merely copied them and put it all in one PDA.

Virtual Graffiti: Handera did this a full year before Sony.

Built-in Thumbpad: Handspring did this in the Treo already.

A real speaker: Ever hear of the TRGpro? This has been out for years. Handera also kept said feature in their 330 model.

Clamshell Design: I fail to see this as a desireable feature, but since you don't... While Sony's model may be the first PalmOS device with a clamshell design NEC, HP and others already had clamshell designs on WinCE devices years ago.

MP3 Player: Sony gets credit for a PalmOS device that plays MP3's, but again, this had already been done on other OS's.

Camera: Is this really anything more than a "gee-whiz" feature? maybe. The only real innovation here however is that Sony made it part of the PDA itself. Eymodule and PalmPix were snapping pics with Palms long before Sony did this.

Add to this the fact that Sony continues to insist on using a proprietary expansion format (MemStick) over industry standards, and I fail to see anything compelling here except the screen, which I admit is really nice.

The charge that Sony isn't actually innovating anything (or at least only little) won't stand - sure Handera has had virtual graffiti for yonks but it was only available to the consumer in a form factor that resembled a brick. And it weighed almost the same too. (Apologies to Handera owners for dissin' your machine - no offence intended). Sony is doing what a lot of Japanese companies excel at - they miniturise technology developed by someone else. I truly doubt that the reason PalmInc (or whatever its calling itself today) has shown a distinct lack of innovation is because they are waiting for batteries to become more powerful.

Gordon from Edinburgh
*I can see blue sky from my window*

Offence greatly taken since your info is wrong. The HandEra 330 is essentially the same size as the NR series. Except the HandEra 330 is shorter by almost an inch and weighs considerably less.

The Chevy Impala is essentially the same size as the BMW 7 series and weighs considerably less. This doesn't mean that its aesthetic qualities are on par with the BMW. Granted, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you fail to take into consideration that plastic (handera 330) weighs less than magnesium (nr70v). And as for being shorter, last time I checked the handera 330 doesn't have an integrated camera.

Still, it's a great machine.

Actually linux has been effectively stalled on the desktop - and