Comments on: Palm Inc. Announces Lower Q4 Revenue Outlook

Palm, Inc. today announced that fourth-quarter revenue will be approximately $230 million, compared with the previously expected $290 million to $300 million. In addition, the company said it will not meet its breakeven profitability expectations for the current quarter, which ends May 31, 2002.

Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers along with other technology products for missing prior estimates. Despite the downturn, the share of Palm branded and Palm OS handhelds in U.S. retail both grew over the last three months.

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Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?

Strider_mt2k @ 5/30/2002 5:34:06 PM #
"Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers along with other technology products for missing prior estimates..."

A downturn in demand, or a downturn in demand for PALM's handhelds?
I guess replacing/refurbishing/reselling all that defective merchandise can wear away at the old profit margin too!

Yes, I know. Always the cynic...



RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
Admin @ 5/30/2002 5:47:34 PM #
They are refering to an overall drop in demand for all handheld computers not just palm branded models.
-Ryan
RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 5:49:17 PM #
I think Sony is killing Palm.

See all those people who pick up NRs.

As I said before, if the current trend continues,
Sony will pass by Palm.

ted

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 5:54:39 PM #
I think there should be some resignations at Palm...no, wait a second, all the good people are gone already so those who are still around actually want to sink with the ship!
RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:07:20 PM #
I might be a little harsh on Benhamou.

But you might be able to see Palm's future from 3com
if things don't change dramatically.

Both have been under the same person's watch.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:01:29 PM #
Sony isn't killing Palm. Want the facts? Get it from http://brighthand.com/newsite/features/marketshare.html
Palm is doing just fine.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:18:34 PM #
Those are relatively old data.

The latest ones show Sony is gaining market shares.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:21:16 PM #
Oh yes, Palm Inc. is losing within the Palm OS market! The article says that Palm OS has increased its market share when compared with other handheld OSes (such as PocketPC and all its versions). It is not saying that Palm Inc. has increased it's own market share.

In fact, Sony has surpassed Handspring as No.2 Palm OS device manufacturer for the first time in March. And that means it is taking its march towards the top if Palm does not wake up soon.

Eric Benhamou made a statement that blames a soft market for handhelds as the cause of poor sales at Palm is downright lying. According to ALL the research and stats companies (NPD, Gartner, IDC) it all points that the Palm OS has increased it's market share or are taking the larger share of the market. Aren't CEO's like that taken out to the courtyard and shot? Especially after Enron? Especially when their subsidiary PalmSource is able to maintain and increase market share despite new competition from Microsoft?

No wonder their shares are falling like May showers.

In the c|net article an analyst made a good observation about Palm Inc. They have not been able to come up with innovative products - just tweaks to existing ones. It pains me to see Palm (the hardware) slowly dying. Despite their lead, if they do not reinvent their hardware they will die at their own altar.


RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:40:55 PM #
No, you are not a cynic. You are stating the truth. A casual PDA customer seems to know more about the expectations and wishes of the buying market than the MARKETING Department of Palm, Inc. Piece-mealing bits of advance tech here and there isn't the whay to go, but that seems to be Palm's strategy.

The public buys when the products answers its demands and an affordable price. When foreign companies like SONY supply what the buyer wants, American companies cry about losses and loosing market shares. They should restudy simple Economic princples of Supply and Demand.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:53:02 PM #
>>Eric Benhamou made a statement that blames a soft market for handhelds as the cause of poor sales at Palm is downright lying. According to ALL the research and stats companies (NPD, Gartner, IDC) it all points that the Palm OS has increased it's market share or are taking the larger share of the market.

You guys are such morons. I wish some days the iunternet was never invented because now every idiot has a podium. Sigh.

Here we go: Sale for all PDAs are down. Palm OS share of those sales is up - BUT THE OVERALL NUMBER OF UNITS SOLD IS DOWN. Yeah - Palm Inc (the hardware guys) is losing share to the liscensees - but he's not LYING by saying that sales are down because PDA sales are down. you guys have such a juvenile view of things. He is explaining why they haven't met their predicted targets. Those original targets would have already assumed a loss of Palm OS share - nothing on expected their. Sure Sony is doing well and nabbed another couple of percentage points (BTW i like Sony and own a beautiful new NR70). BUT - this isn't nearly the problem that overall PDA sales drop is.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:18:42 PM #
These comments from the Sony drones are kind of funny. The last monthly US handheld retail market share numbers posted here a week ago had Palm's device market share increasing by over 8% while Sony's dropped a half percent. Sony is struggling to be on an even field with Handspring at best. It'll be interesting to see what impact the Treo 90 has.

> See all those people who pick up NRs.

I doubt the few thousand of those $500 devices Sony sells will cover the design and development costs for them. They are completely insignificant in the grand market share scheme. Their only impact is to improve Sony's marketing image for sales of the lower-end devices.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:29:24 PM #
PDA market is not growing as fast as it used to be.
But in fact it is still growing.

I think when the new market share come out, Palm's
share will be down, while Sony keeps moving up.

Gee. A guy who buys a Sony NR tell me differently?
At least I bought a M515. :-)
It is guys like you who buy Sony instead of Palm that causes this problem.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:53:12 PM #
sigh Sony is not the problem. It's part of Palm's strategy to use Sony to get PalmOS into places they couldn't get into. No shame in admitting that. Sony has enormous resources and experience in consumer devices. But Sony by itself couldn't pull it off. They know nothing about the enterprise market or education. They don't understand why the m130 is so important or why people will buy something based on battery life instead of a built-in camera. They don't have any wireless solution. Palm needs Sony to push the platform further and further but someone has to be there to remind everyone that practicality is important too
RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld compute
somas1 @ 5/30/2002 10:26:32 PM #
"Sony is struggling to be on an even field with Handspring at best."

Do you really think Sony is struggling? Do you really think Sony has diverted even 1/10 of their resources toward the clie? Have you ever seen a commercial for a clie?

Don't get me wrong I like the clie but to Sony these units are trivial. If Sony were trying to push the clie it would have name brand recognition in a matter of weeks. Spiderman and Green Goblin would have been using clies.

By no means do I think, as some do, that Sony should buy Palm or would even want to. But do not fool yourself into thinking Sony has even entered the fray. The clie is now nothing more than an experiment.

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 10:26:59 PM #
To the person who sighs:

I couldn't agree more (on the morons part)!

Discussion/Comment Sections seem to be frequented by a very diverse population. Many posts are informative, well reasoned and rational, but alas, an equal amount seem to originate from either people whose brows are not furrowed by the effort of thought, or those with some agenda.

Electronic spaces like these are not the Oxford Union Debating society, nor Stanford's Debate Society, not even Anytown Community College, more like Anytown High School, in the cafeteria - where teachers, alumni and visitors join in the discussion.

Thus, once one starts reading below PIC's contribution, it's probably wise to suspend expectation of much of anything too serious.


RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 10:35:57 PM #
Slow down my foot.

what do you expect? people will keep buying same old stuff, rehash of V/Vx?

Of course sooner or later the market will tapper off. That's what Sony is learning, keep introducing new model with some sort of compelling feature. At least you can claim it's a new and intereting handheld to own.

The "why do you need that" philosophy finally bit them in the ass!

RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 1:43:52 AM #
TO THE MONOPOLISTIC MORON:

First of all a forum is for EVERYONE to participate in, and yes, including morons sometimes. But to think you have the monopolistic right to YOUR moronic viewpoint, there will never be a thing called "forum". PIC might as well remove this feature and then you can report your monopolistic viewpoint without any discussion - moronic or otherwise.

Secondly, if you read the original c|net article and what the original poster said, in a statement made by Brian Blair, an analyst at hedge fund Bluewater Capital and I paraphrase "If the economic data about consumer spending is any indication, people are still buying electronics,..." he is saying Palm should not be putting the blame on weak market conditions but instead relook at their products.

I also find it funny that you have to qualify your statement by saying that you own an NR70. Does that make your post any better? Give it a little more weight? I think not!


RE: Palm has cited a downturn in demand for handheld computers?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 9:48:02 AM #
>"First of all a forum is for EVERYONE to participate in, and yes, including morons sometimes. But to think you have the monopolistic right to YOUR moronic viewpoint, there will never be a thing called "forum"."<

So, to prove your point that the forum is for everyone, you tell someone who expressed their opinion to shut up?

Kind of hypocritical, isn't it?

Whole lotta nothing

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:11:58 PM #
Palm continues to come out with underdeveloped and overpriced products that address the needs of consumers 6-12 months too late. They are their own worst enemy. Sony only enhances the market for Palm and Palm just can't keep pace anymore . . .
RE: Whole lotta nothing
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:27:07 PM #
Except people still care about Palm OS.

Once Palm OS is seperated. I don't think people care
about this Palm anymore. :-(

RE: Whole lotta nothing
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:50:19 PM #
Yes Agree
RE: Whole lotta nothing
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 3:49:51 AM #
Looking at it, with the hardware (Palm) and software (PalmSource) now officially split to 2 different ones, the spotlight is turn to what Palm itself will come out. With better or on par with its other same Palm OS competitors.

From CNet Asia, Palm Singapore has toned down its usual many marketing events compared to last year. Event like Communicasia being one of the big event to be held in June 2002, Palm is not in at all.

SONY should acquire PALM

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:26:45 PM #
With results like this, PALM will no longer be the master of their own destiny. And let's not even bring up HANDSPRING and their "management" team.

I think it's time that a responsible, competent company like SONY acquires PALM.

So much for the ZEN OF PALM.


RE: SONY should acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:41:03 PM #
Why would Sony want to acquire Palm - what value would be added. None!
RE: SONY should acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:42:03 PM #
That is totally silly. Palm the company. Sony is only an also ran.
RE: SONY should acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:49:07 PM #
I can't believe what you saying. Do you have any idea what you are talking about. I hope you have at least half a brain.
RE: SONY should acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 9:28:29 AM #
I think that this makes sense when Palm's stock price reaches 10 cents, which will be a good value for Sony. I would rather see Sony buy Palm, and lead the Palm OS development than it to go bankrupt and let the Pocket PC contingent dominate the market.
SONY will never acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 7:10:34 PM #
Sony buy palm?
Why?
What value is left at Palm?
The Zen?
Will somebody knowledgable pls step forward and tell the eager audience what remains more worth than a brezel making palm more attractive than - lets say a halve eaten cheesburger.

Benhanoutchi is still by far overpriced with a apple and a egg

RE: SONY should acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 7:21:04 PM #
Pretty soon, Palm will be depended on Sony to keep technological edge. Sony doesn't need Palm, Palm needs Sony.

Otherwise Palm will continue the slide toward the lower end of the PDA market and forced to sell more of cheap stuff just to keep head above water. Palm simply cannot compete in hardware innovation against the big electronic giants. (ie. they have better screen, better memory, and manufacturing overall ability)

frankly, one has to wonder why Palm can survive this long with all their incompetencies.

RE: SONY should acquire PALM
abosco @ 6/1/2002 12:57:39 PM #
To the last guy who replied and said Palm needs Sony-
That's pretty funny that you can say that Palm needs Sony to keep their head above the water. Yo dumb*** what kind of OS would Sony use if there was no Palm??? If they bought out Palm and then claimed the OS and the company, there's another problem! Wheres the competition? Handspring? Don't make me laugh. I already laughed too much looking at the Treo 90 trying to be an ugly, overpriced mirror image of the m130. With just Sony and PPC (and a couple other companies), prices would enter close to the thousands for a mid-high end device.
So Palm needs Sony right???
Why???
Seems like Palm is doing a good job sitting on 3/4 of the entire handheld marketshare. Do they really need Sony to sell the OS to anybody? When somebody enters into the market looking for a handheld but don't have a lot to spend, do you think they like the Sony pricetags??? No, it's either the m100 series or the visor series. One more thing I would like to point out is that whenever one Sony comes out, a better replacement comes out in another 3 months. If I bought a top of the line handheld like a Sony NR-70V for $600, I would like it to stay on top for at least a half of a year. I'm sure all you guys who bought the NR are mighty happy right now. Let's see how happy you guys will be after OS 5. ARM!

RE: SONY should acquire PALM
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/1/2002 10:22:57 PM #
Actually Palm Inc.'s market share is less than 35% by now.

Before we get too much junk

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:34:51 PM #
Can people try for once to keep the comments to themselves? The "Zen of Palm" is quite a concept, but frankly nobody cares.
Pointless waste of time
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 7:11:33 AM #
"nobody cares."

yeah! me too! I mean if you don't have anything to add, don't post. (Actually, this post is also pointless, and a waste of time, so I probably shouldn't have posted it.)

Ed: Where's the slash code?
pstreck @ 5/31/2002 9:08:37 AM #
Ed;
I'm thinking we need a slashdot like moderation system...

Downturn not due to demand...

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 6:30:17 PM #
Well, another interpretation of this so-called downturn in demand can be explained by market saturation.

Most people who want PDAs or handhelds already have them at this point. I'm still chugging along with my Palm Vx and see no need to replace it with a new color PDA. The b&w unit does everything I want it to do which is just schedules, contacts, and the occasional note.

Frankly, many people don't need PDAs. A sticky note is good enough or something scrawled on a desk calendar. PDAs were cool toys when they came out, but many people don't need them. If you want to play games, then a Gameboy Advanced is the cheaper and better way to go.

RE: Downturn not due to demand...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 7:02:12 PM #
"Well, another interpretation of this so-called downturn in demand can be explained by market saturation.

Most people who want PDAs or handhelds already have them at this point."

This is probably true. If you are right then Sony's attempts to garner consumer interest may be more sucessful than Handera and Palm's attempts to corner the business sector. Marketed properly an arm based machine that will let people carry games, pictures, home movies, vcd and dvds and mp3s can be a killer (once battery and price issues are squared away). When's the last time someone suggested that the market was saturated with cd players and tvs? If you love Palm OS you should not have a problem with Palm and its sisters marrying their PIM functions to multimedia.

"If you want to play games, then a Gameboy Advanced is the cheaper and better way to go."

Why do people keep saying this? A gameboy is great for my kids but the screen is godawful by the standards of a Palm user. If Palmsource comes through with some of what they have intimated, someone will be able to build a decent gaming unit based on the Palm OS. Remember the turbografx express? A machine like that with SEGA's gaming API and Palm OS would be awe inspiring (once battery and pricing issues are resolved).

RE: Downturn not due to demand...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:40:14 PM #
I think there is a lot of room to grow. The problem is that Palm, Handspring et als. are aiming at the same crowd that already has a PDA or really dont care for one. They should do more in targetting the High School/College market. Once these guys are hooked, they will keep buying PDAs even when they are in their 60s.
RE: Downturn not due to demand...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 10:39:05 PM #
Down turn my foot. The entire PDA market is projected to grow 15-20%. Sony is growing, PPC is growing.

How many more V/Vx/m505/m515 can the market take? more of the same stuff obviously won't sell.

RE: Downturn not due to demand...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 12:06:41 AM #
Market saturation is BY DEFINITION a downturn in demand.

That said, I think these sites are geared for PDA entusiasts, not users who what to keep track of their names, addresses, appointments, and perhaps a game or two. Most users don't know what version of the Palm OS they have, much less what's going on with OS 6. Palm, Handspring, and definitely Sony have left this user in the dust. What I'm saying is that as products become commodities--as are PCs--you expect the entry level device to get lots cheaper and only offer the essentials. This isn't happening to any great degree with PDAs, or the main manufacturers would all offer a $79 beginner PDA. What I'm saying is that PDA demand is flattening because PDA geeks, who'll appreciate & possibly buy the latest & greatest are a niche market and can't sustain revenues.

Combination PDA, cellphone, MP3 player, digital camera devices are NOT the meat & potatoes of the industry regardless of how popular each of those devices are separately. Palm, Handspring, Compaq, Sony ... get a clue!

RE: Downturn not due to demand...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 2:10:41 PM #
"This is probably true. If you are right then Sony's attempts to garner consumer interest may be more sucessful than Handera and Palm's attempts to corner the business sector."

Don't know about that. consumer interest is still restricted by "why do I need that". Yet when businesses are more often equipping staff with them like mine, you have a market that continues to grow. And the question of "why do I need that" is answered by management with "Because I said so", or "because it's how you get parts X, Y, and Z of your job done".
Tools for business will continue to be an important revenue portion for Palm, HandEra and Symbol IMO.

Come on now

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 7:04:27 PM #
Is Sony making money on PDAs? They come out witha new model every week it seems. Nice for us but a whole lot o engeneering dollars. Spending WAAAAY more on engineering and design than Palm. What only 16 percent of the market to show for it during its best month ever? There is no way they are making money.

All those PPC companies ten percent or below, not even a factor. THEY are the ones that Sony will destroy. Many NR sales are people who would otherwise buy a PPC anyway. That is why Palm considers Sony to be a partner.

The reason why we know that HS and Palm are not turning profits is that Handhelds are all they do. We only know if Sony corp as a whole makes money. Same goes for Compaq, HP, and the rest. They could lose a hundred bucks on every HH they produce and we'd never know.

RE: Come on now
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:16:33 PM #
PalmSource ( or Palm Platform) is a partner of Sony.
Palm Computing is a competitor of Sony.

When we talk about rev. of Palm Computing, it is really
the hw sales.

RE: Come on now
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:42:21 PM #
I read these posts and I am not getting any closer to understanding what is going on in the PDA market. I really can't understand WHY people are not buying PDA's or Palms. I really think that buyers don't know what they are capable of or they don't want to train themselves to be good at using PDA's. Perhaps there is not enough education about how to do things with the PDA. I really thought it would be a blockbuster. I still could not do without it. I really like the V form factor. I don't think that I could be that fooled about a device that I had to use it for 4 years before I came to my senses.
RE: Come on now
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:43:57 PM #
I must agree with the original poster. Palm, Handspring and Handera cannot survive on PDA alone. There only hope is to either diversify or get bought out by some company. I think Handspring would make a nice fit for Apple. Palm I do not know about. No one seem to be making any decent money in the PDA space...I doubt that Sony is even making any money. Sony is making PDAs because it is a part of their entertainment strategy.
RE: Come on now
Scott R @ 5/30/2002 9:29:27 PM #
The original Palm Pilot cost about $250, didn't it? I can't really remember, though I did get one of those for Xmas from my wife. In any case, I feel that the market for high-cost PDAs is limited to high-tech junkies / geeks (i.e. - small). The only way to get people to pay big bucks for PDAs is to offer a compelling reason to. But the problem is that the more expensive PDAs start to compete with laptops and do a poor job of it functionality-wise. The bottom line is that what PDAs did (and continue to do) best is PIM functionality. And for PIM functionality, the average consumer is not going to spend $350+ on a PDA. This means that Palm's market (of lower cost PDAs) will grow, while their profits won't grow exponentially (as they originally hoped).

Scott

RE: Come on now
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:51:28 PM #
The last comment was right on the mark. Thanks. I bought and returned a Sony with the camera. It is my first PDA. I realized after that I was spending $600 for a tiny keyboard. I'm ordering a Palm 515 for $349 not penny more!!!
RE: Come on now
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 3:57:37 AM #
While to many tech geeks, PDA is such an indispensable device not many will see it as a must have.

With the price of computers coming down drastically, many do not compare an apple to an apple but a small computer (PDA) with almost not a great different in pricing to a complete set of computer.


RE: Come on now
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 2:19:15 PM #
" I must agree with the original poster. Palm, Handspring and Handera cannot survive on PDA alone. There only hope is to either diversify or get bought out by some company."

Remove HandEra from your concern list then. They were involved in other stuff before they made handhelds, and continue to be.
http://www.handera.com/services/default.htm

RE: Come on now
melopsittacus @ 6/3/2002 11:20:34 AM #
Valid points. But cast your mind back to the late 1980s when 286s cost two thousand dollars. Why did people (mostly companies) buy them? Because there was one thing they could better than paper and pencils: spread sheets. I guess you had to be there to appreciate it. Palms have to compete with both paper and pencils AND desktops. They don't quite have that one thing which they do better than both. Palm desperately needs a killer app. Email on the go probably is not it. Phone integration probably is not it. A killer app is something specific to a particular technology, and these are not particular to handhelds. Personally, I'd vote for mobile storage (throw away those zip disks and floppies...the iPod got this right) and personal wallet functionality (safe online shopping, debit card capabilities, etc....no one has gotten this right).

History repeats itself

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 8:58:04 PM #
2002 1984(?)
Palm = IBM

Sony = Microsoft

Handspring = Apple

crazy!

RE: NO NO NO
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:12:09 PM #
2002 199x
Palm Inc IBM
Palm Source Microsoft
Handspring Compaq(?)
Sony Dell(?)
Microsoft Apple (ironic?)


RE: History repeats itself
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:14:48 PM #
Indeed it does.
Mid 80's - MS kills IBM in the PC market.
Early 90's - MS kills Apple in the computer market
Mid 90's - MS kills all others in office software market.
Late 90's - MS kills Novelle in network market.
Early 2000's - MS kills Palm in PDA market????
RE: History repeats itself
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 1:32:26 AM #
To the last post:

M$ doesn't have a prayer in the PDA and Game Console worlds because it envolves hardware. They can't pull an IE in these markets. But they'll dump millions trying.

Sony is the M$ of consumer electronics. Look to them for dominance in these markets.

RE: History repeats itself
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 8:52:03 AM #
I don't think you understand.

I was just comparing the way percieved leadership in the handheld market these days mirrors that of the desktop market from the 80's and 90's. I was not saying that Microsoft will come in and take over, like last time. I think Sony is in a good position to take over the PAlm OS market, using the same tactics that MS used in the PC market. Sony puts tons of gee wiz features in their Palms to grab market share. Handspring on the other hand concentrates on providing solutions like Apple. Palm is a big hulking sloth that can't respond fast enough to market demand. Just like IBM was.

I'm getting a treo 90... :) go Mac go!

RE: History repeats itself
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 11:41:22 AM #
You know what's going to be scary, and something Microsoft can probably pull off, is to incent hardware vendors like HP/Compaq or Toshiba to bundle their PPC with PCs and make it an all-around kit. That would effectively (for new/uneducated PC buyers) kill any interest in looking into the Palm OS market. And with the low, low PC prices we're seeing today, what's the incentive NOT to buy a new PC (and thusly acquire a PPC in the deal)? Ugh.

In this case, Sony's segment of the PC hardware market probably couldn't compete by bundling Clies with their laptops & PCs. I'm kind of surprised this hasn't happened yet, or possibly MS is gearing up to lay the commercial smack-down on consumers about how great the PPC is, and how convenient it is that the consumer will get one for 'free'.

As a matter of fact, I should probably not have even written this down. By doing so, I feel like I'm dooming the Palm OS community. :(

RE: History repeats itself
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 3:39:23 PM #
No no no no no. PPC is not a peripheral to your PC: it's a competitor for its attention, loaded down with a lot of space and energy-concuming crap that you can do much better on your PC. Whereas Palm OS devices are meant to be mobile companions to PCs, slimmed down to perform the kinds of essential functions one needs when on the go (i.e. away from the all-powerful PC).

I don't care how few people at M$, Compaq/HP, and tech geeks throughout the world fail to grasp the "zen of Palm," average joe consumers get it, and that's what really matters. Bundling handhelds with PCs is a good idea, but it ought to be Palm OS handhelds. Boxing up a PPC with a PC would not sell.

RE: History repeats itself
melopsittacus @ 6/3/2002 11:05:22 AM #
No. The story goes more like this.
Sony = IBM of the 1980s. Remember, back then the way that Microsoft grew was by piggy-backing on the corporate muscle of IBM. This is why, in my opinion, Palm has become so friendly with Sony. They are hoping to use Sony in the same way. Remember, Yankowsky used to work for Sony. I wouldn't be surprised if an understanding exists where by Palm agrees to forgo certain "innovations" (i.e., directed at a particular market niche) if Sony would use the Palm OS.

Palm = Apple of the 1980s. They were first, they got the early market share, they got bogged down because their hardware division couldn't get past the consumer / education market to the enterprise market where IBM reigned supreme.
Sony = IBM of the mid-1990s. This was when IBM and Microsoft were competing directly against one another (MS with Windows 3.1 and IBM with OS2). Sony is now competing directly against MS with its handhelds and with the Playstation.

what could happen

drw @ 5/30/2002 9:21:22 PM #
Palm declares bankruptcy.

Stockholders get nothing
Bondholders get 2 cents on the dollar
Executives who caused the mess get huge retention bonuses
Lawyers get 100 million dollars
New company with money to burn buys palm

If I were in charge I'd flush the whole "m*.*" series down the toilet, hire new designers and produce killer handhelds in the following categories:

-entry level organizer
-power user
-smartphone

I'd co-produce a GPS-palm with garmin. Click on a name in the address book, and receive voice prompts through a hi-volume speaker.

Many people over 40 can't see very well. I'd produce a mini-tablet sized palm for the geritol set with windows software to print greeting cards from within the Palm desktop.

For younger croud I'd produce a water proof shock resistant sports palm with AM/FM radio and hi-volume speaker.

David in Pflugerville, TX

RE: what could happen
higgy @ 6/2/2002 4:19:33 PM #
If I were in charge I'd flush the whole "m*.*" series down the toilet, hire new designers and produce killer handhelds in the following categories:

-entry level organizer
-power user
-smartphone

I'd co-produce a GPS-palm with garmin. Click on a name in the address book, and receive voice prompts through a hi-volume speaker.

Many people over 40 can't see very well. I'd produce a mini-tablet sized palm for the geritol set with windows software to print greeting cards from within the Palm desktop.

For younger croud I'd produce a water proof shock resistant sports palm with AM/FM radio and hi-volume speaker.>

It sounds like you have an idea. Go run with it. Get some venture capital and set aup a company... I'll be third in line to buy one of your gadgets.

Higgy

LACK OF INNOVATION

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 9:43:34 PM #
Brian Blair, an analyst at hedge fund Bluewater Capital, said Palm is erring by placing the blame on slow demand.

"If the economic data about consumer spending is any indication, people are still buying electronics," Blair said. He said Palm has not come out with devices that are compelling enough to grab those dollars, noting that the last several products from Palm are basically minor tweaks to existing devices.

"They always blame everything except their own lack of innovation and mismanagement of inventory," Blair said.

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
crustyedgeofinnovation @ 5/30/2002 11:21:34 PM #
Hi everyone,

I know that some people from Palm enjoy reading this message board, and I would like to take this opportunity to express my deapest anger and hatred towards the company and its executives. You people must really be dumb sons of bitchs, but alas, it appears that I am made to look even dumber by believing your prior guidance, and by buying more shares in this company. Maybe you will manage to turn the company around and eventually turn profitable, but for now, I would like to cordially invite you all to **** off.

Mario


PS: You will probably delete this post Ed, and I have no gripe with that.

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION, HANDERA too
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 11:41:23 PM #
May I add that I hope the ****ing turds at HANDERA also drop off the face of the earth. Bunch of loosers have pissed away any and all chance of EVER doing **** with a PDA again. They had a 2 year lead and pissed it all away and continue to act like a the bunch of arrogant pricks that they are.

Good riddens to Palm, HandSpring, Handera and PALM OS. Kudos to Sony on a job well done but I am through with Palm my next purchase goes to a PocketPC. Say what you will about MS but they don't leave money on the table when they see it. Palm and gang (-Sony) just piss away opertunity after opertunity. I wonder if they use Palm or PocketPC's at Palm/PalmSource??

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 2:22:39 AM #
Kids...grow up.
RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 2:58:42 AM #
Mario, you are kidding right? you didn't buy shares based on what some people on this site said - did you? And YOU are blaming THEM? J-e-s-u-s, you are dumb. LOL. Glad to see that darwinism is alive and well.

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 9:58:28 AM #
"May I add that I hope the ****ing turds at HANDERA also drop off the face of the earth. Bunch of loosers have pissed away any and all chance of EVER doing **** with a PDA again. They had a 2 year lead and pissed it all away and continue to act like a the bunch of arrogant pricks that they are."

Huh?

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 9:59:18 AM #
>"May I add that I hope the ****ing turds at HANDERA also drop off the face of the earth. Bunch of loosers have pissed away any and all chance of EVER doing **** with a PDA again. They had a 2 year lead and pissed it all away and continue to act like a the bunch of arrogant pricks that they are.

Good riddens to Palm, HandSpring, Handera and PALM OS. Kudos to Sony on a job well done but I am through with Palm my next purchase goes to a PocketPC. Say what you will about MS but they don't leave money on the table when they see it. Palm and gang (-Sony) just piss away opertunity after opertunity. I wonder if they use Palm or PocketPC's at Palm/PalmSource??"<

Why can't you PPC trolls stick to your own websites? Go crawl back under whatever rock it was you slithered out from under.

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
fleegle @ 5/31/2002 10:36:35 AM #
"Go crawl back under whatever rock it was you slithered out from under."

No. No. No. He/She/It should crawl out from under that rock and go back to grade school. There are so many spelling and grammatical errors in that post it is ludricous. My four-year old can spell better than that moron.

loosers should be losers
riddens should be riddance
opertunity should be opportunity

Bozo, you should use a Palm OS device. The spell checker program on your PocketPC doesn't work correctly.


RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 10:57:54 AM #
"Why can't you PPC trolls stick to your own websites? Go crawl back under whatever rock it was you slithered out from under."

He can't crawl back unter the rock, it's too far from the outlet.....

RE: LACK OF INNOVATION
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 2:28:41 PM #
" May I add that I hope the ****ing turds at HANDERA also drop off the face of the earth. Bunch of loosers have pissed away any and all chance of EVER doing **** with a PDA again. They had a 2 year lead and pissed it all away and continue to act like a the bunch of arrogant pricks that they are."

Why so angry on that point? Since they're not a public company I know you didn't buy shares there too. How does your perception of their success or lack of it, have any bearing on your general sense of well-being?

The end is near my friend.

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 10:42:43 PM #
You know about that OS 5.0 that suppose to be the ultimate savior of Palm? The one that will have all the multimedia goodies and dazzling power that will finally shut PPC up?

Well there is only one problem, it's the answer of yesterday question and Palm is half step behind the curve again by the time it finish with OS 5.0.

The next wave is seamless information transaction over multi networks, with emphasis on reducing mundane task seamlessly everywhere. The connection between PC, PDA, and user will be radically altered. PDA would become more than personal digital agenda and entertainment on your pocket, what Palm is aiming for and has been done by Microsoft with current OS 3.0. The next step they think people want, after the "connected organizer" come to a crashing end like the 90's bubble. But nobody cares about playing movie or playing spiffy game over the phone anymore. It's an OLD trick. A trick wich Palm still have to make btw.

The future is paying your can of soda with smartphone and automatically charged into your bank account.

And the technology to do that is beyond what Palm is currently capable of doing. It's creation of infrastructure and controlling standard. That's what Microsoft has in mind with their .net plan. PDA has turn into a standard batle of the phone and software giants, where Palm is too small and too stupid to actually play along.

In the end Palm will be reduced into insignificant player who makes electronic organizer on steroid, interesting and colorfull, but doesn't work with any network standard.

RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 11:41:59 PM #
>>>But nobody cares about playing movie or playing spiffy game over the phone anymore. It's an OLD trick.A trick wich Palm still have to make btw.


Huh? Spiffy games have only just arrived on phones via Palm AND PPC smartphones. Up til now games for phones have been VERY simplistic and crude. And in the department - Palm actually beat everybody to the punch. With Kyocera and Samsung devices that came out last yr - people finally had the ability to to play reasonably complex, graphical games that were available in large numbers (dont quip back about this-or-that phone having games cause both the numbers AND sources are extremely limited for proprietary phones). have you actually played the sh*t games they have been asking people to PAY for on these phones?? ick!!

>>>The future is paying your can of soda with smartphone and automatically charged into your bank account.

Welcome to the new century - glad you could join us! Unfortunatley for u - Palm has been here already: They have had a Bluetooth API (thats right its called B-l-u-e-t-o-o-t-h, maybe you've heard of it?) for a while now, and the hardware division has a Bluetooth SD card available. Of course, OS 5 (the OS you claim is missing the boat because you don't actually know anything about it) has even better integration bluetooth and 802.11b (maybe you've heard of 802.11b as well?).


RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 11:41:59 PM #
Exactly. WAP games are the biggest joke imaginable. Only in Europe (where desktop internet seems to be an expensive thing) could this take off (this is not intended as a slight to europeans - and i might not even know what im talking about - its just that its insane what people in the UK pay for internet; Canada is really lucky in that regard). And as for the simple built in action games - i have seen a few of these and they make Palm games look like the desktop.
RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 2:27:33 AM #
The end is near, the sky is falling, must all repent now or else we're doomed....come on. We've heard this talk for years and guess what? Palm has increased marketshare and it was Compaq that was bought out. My prediction is that the H-Paq merger will be a dud and the real surprise will be some Palm deal from Dell
RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 10:03:30 AM #
>"The next wave is seamless information transaction over multi networks, with emphasis on reducing mundane task seamlessly everywhere. The connection between PC, PDA, and user will be radically altered. PDA would become more than personal digital agenda and entertainment on your pocket, what Palm is aiming for and has been done by Microsoft with current OS 3.0."<

Uh...right, and e-commerce and the internet were supposed to radically change the world, too. Sure buddy.

RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 10:05:30 AM #
"And the technology to do that is beyond what Palm is currently capable of doing. It's creation of infrastructure and controlling standard. That's what Microsoft has in mind with their .net plan. PDA has turn into a standard batle of the phone and software giants, where Palm is too small and too stupid to actually play along."

OMG! Do you really think MICROSOFT can pull this off successfully? Do YOU trust M$ with your banking information? Think about it, the first time some amateur hacker gets into the system (like all other MS products), it's all over. Both for .NET and the people whose bank accounts were compromised (remember that little disclaimer stating that MS is not responsible for any damages that may occur from using their software?).

RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 10:07:55 AM #
> The future is paying your can of soda with smartphone
> and automatically charged into your bank account.

Bwah, hah, hah, ha, ha ... ha, ha, ha. Hilarious! Why in the world do I need a gadget that costs hundreds of dollars to do what I can already do with a debit/credit card? Do you have some venture capital you're willing to give me for other dumb ideas like this? Not to mention that there's absolutlely no reason why you couldn't already do something like this with existing Palm devices. Hilarious! Go back to reading your PocketPC FUD.

RE: The end is near my friend.
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 11:27:14 AM #
.net at it's current form will fail, cause nobody trusts Microsoft with centralized pasport information. But for people who laugh, go take a look at Japanese and Finnish phone market and what people are doing with their phone. At first everybody laugh about the idea of check and Creditcard to replace money transaction too. But hey.... it's not like paper money is dead either.

It's natural that smartphone do this mundane task. You think wireless PDA is about email and looking up few item on amazon web site and call it enterprise capable?

yeah right.... That's about as far Palm Inc can imagine and would like you to believe.

As long as the OS subsidiary is OK - why care

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/30/2002 11:20:46 PM #
People aren't crying out about the eminent death of Microsoft in the desktop market - and gosh! - they have 0% of the PC hardware market! And don't look now but - they also have fallen to 0% of the PDA hardware market!! Horrors! Yes, Palm could go the Mac route and try to provide both hardware and software while NOT liscensing their OS to other maunfacturers - if they want to stay permanently below 20% of the market like Mac. But they have already picked a strategy - they are liscensing their OS - they know they are going to lose market share! This is why they have split the company into 2 divisions WITH PLANS LONG AGO ANNOUNCED to completely seperate these into 2 distinct companies. Why are people on this site so god-awful dim on this point? If i was Palm i would (1) - do everything possible to differentiate the OS division from the hardware in the eyes of the public (very difficult challenge) and (2) - sell the hardware division. They must be planning on something like this - or atleast they have planned a split in the company to make this easy if/when the hardware side falls off. In any event - they see liscensing as the route to competing with MS. I personally couldn't care less if the hardware division fell off of the face of the earth as long as my favorite PDA OS survives the PDA OS battle with MS. There will be plenty of devices to fill Palm Inc market niche.
RE: Free SONY Marketing Research
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 3:24:45 AM #
Micro$oft actually has more than 0% of the PC hardware market. Their mouse & keyboard division alone is larger than many of the smaller PC manufacturers.
RE: As long as the OS subsidiary is OK - why care
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 1:08:58 PM #
>>Micro$oft actually has more than 0% of the PC hardware market. Their mouse & keyboard division alone is larger than many of the smaller PC manufacturers.

Yeah -they've really got the hardware market locked up!Re-read the what the poster said AND then think before making a comment that completely misses his point.

Palm needs a Bill G!

wilco @ 5/31/2002 2:23:18 AM #
Palm's recent woes are distressing to a Palm OS fan. It seems Palm lack a strong leader that can push both the hardware and software platform to innovate and produce results. Someone like Bill G. No, don't flame me, I am not suggesting that Miocrosoft buys Palm, for that would be a major disaster for us - Palm lovers. What I am saying is that Palm needs a leader like Bill G who had a vision and is personally pushing and even programming to make it happen. Kinda like, Netscape's early years, when Marc Andersen and Company is building the famous browser. When Netscape got bought and Andersen left, the company got listless; stuffed with 9-to-5 employees who program for pay and without enthusiasm.
Palm is like the Netscape of later years, especially after the founders left to form Handspring and when it spin-off from 3Com. Working but barely, just enough to keep afloat. But for how long. There are many signs of this laziness on Palm's part - things that could easily programmed be/and should have been part of the OS like a better Calculator had to be bundled from Power One; the Office suite from DataVIz, and the Internet Browser promised but undelivered. Microsoft may have bundled everything but the kitchen sink into it's OS but it had made it for easier for both the end-users and licensees. Instead of the licensees paying once for the OS and again for the Office Suite, they just pay once even if it's more expensive.
Back to employees...Palm's leaders needs to get a hands-on approach, to personally work on the innovations, so that all their coworker would take heed and work with dedication. Palm should lead not follow....
Sorry if this piece lack coherence, I am typing it as thoughts comes to mind without proofreading....:-)

RE: Palm needs a Bill G!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/3/2002 11:12:47 AM #
Palm had Bill Gates working for them, his actual name was Jeff Hawkins but Jeff Hawkins beat the hell out of Bill Gates who was trying desparately to get into that market. He was a hands on design genius who created the Palm formula.

Stupid management let their "Bill Gates" get away over relatively minor issues. Hawkins wanted a separate company instead of being part of 3coms. Eric realized that was a good idea after he lost his "Bill Gates".

Point is that another "Bill Gates" is not going to materialize until Eric B goes away and that isn't going to be any time soon.

ZEN OF PALM?

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 7:10:02 AM #
The Zen of Palm is their excuse not to move forward and compete with their competitors. That's what the Zen of Palm is to me now.

I am going to coin a new spiritual mumbo-jumbo for them. The Sin of Palm.

why sony won't kill palm

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 1:04:22 PM #
because products of sony don't appeal the typical john-doe (except the s360 which is relatively old.) if we look at those new sony's, all are high-end (and very high-end compared to palm and handspring devices)

what helps palm survive is the low-end market. every pda maker including sony, whatever they do, will not be able to dominate that market ever because that typical person will probably want to buy a 'palm pilot', not a clie. palm takes advantage of its brand the most here in this area.

RE: why sony won't kill palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 1:19:10 PM #
Sony is master of shaping product for maximum profit in consumer market. The reason they are making $499-599 product is because there is no competition in that high margin bracket.

Can Sony make low cost PDA? hey now....

you are talking about a company that has made disposable cost handheld radio, $15 walkman, $40 discman, etc...

what makes you think they can't make $40 basic Palm? They can, but they don't see why they should.

RE: why sony won't kill palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 5:03:23 PM #
palm can sell SIX m100's at the same price of ONE NR70V.

the issue is not profiting, but selling MORE in the subject of market share. therefore altough sony is getting the maximum profit, it is not helping them increase their market share.

RE: why sony won't kill palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 5:23:38 PM #
yeah and big fat profit from all those m10x too I suppose.

Palm average selling unit has been falling so low, it's not even funny.

RE: why sony won't kill palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/31/2002 10:10:05 PM #
What is market share is there is not profit? Companies cannot survive on market share alone. It gotto make a profit.

Mourning morning

abosco @ 6/1/2002 1:45:43 PM #
Alarm, Alarm, Alarm. Knocked it off the dresser. Get up and get dressed. Coffee and breakfast. Go on AOL. Check how stocks are and WHOOOOOOAAAA!!! Palm at 1.5!!! Cry, Cry, Whine, Whine, followed by self pity. There goes more than half the cash I paid for it. Thoughts of suicide racing through my head.

It's over...

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/2/2002 11:55:52 PM #
1. Palm has no money, none coming soon.

2. Handspring can't figure out what to do:
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-929880.html

3. OS5 isn't here, it's too late, and it's just going to confuse people.

Time to get a Pocket PC, they seem to be way more stable.

RE: It's over...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/3/2002 12:54:13 AM #
Palm Inc still have about 200M cash, so unless they goof up as big as last time. they'll last a little longer.

but wonder if OS 5.0 will be released next week. Isn't it suppose to be out June 15 or so?

I Don't Hear a Fat Lady Singing
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/3/2002 9:12:41 AM #
Ahhh, always nice to hear from a Microsoft troll first thing in the morning, spreading their special brand of FUD.

Palm still sells about 4 times as many handhelds as all the PPC licensees combined. It is having problems making a profit but so is everyone else in the industry who doesn't have a monopoly on a desktop OS.

Handspring is struggling but Sony is doing just fine. So are Kyocera and Samsung. There are lots more Palm OS licensees than you realize.

OS 5 will go golden master in a few weeks and your statement that "its just going to confuse people" makes absolutely no sense. Instead, it will remove the perceived MHz Gap between the Palm OS and Pocket PC. The two will begin to compete on number of apps and user experience, where the Palm OS already wins hands down.

While there are some good things to be said about the Pocket PC, "stable" isn't one of them.

I know a restroom when I smell one
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/3/2002 5:27:02 PM #
Nice wording but let me show you a little closer to reality.
If one would haven bought a truckload of toilet paper instead of Palm shares recently he would have at least once a day a nice and productive experience with a coupon. You can hardly wipe digitally - can you?
Besides having in the soft paper roll a comparable sound investment with moderate inflation only.
Experts could even figure out that over time one would have made a good deal sticking to a comparable hard value of a decent "french roll” saving the bucks.

So even you must admit: both products share a final destiny, but even then the paper might be finally floating atop, the Palm goes under like a stone.

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