Comments on: Memory Stick Duo Coming in July (Updated)

I'm sure they are waiting until they can sell them for a resonable cost. At this point, a 256MB one would cost about $180 and the 512MB at least $360. At those prices, they'd sell about 5 of them.

No way, pro photographers need storage for their 6-8 mega-pixel RAW images. 6MP CCD's are comign to consumers soon, so Sony would be smart to get them selling now to secure lower prices in the future.

Nope. Sony is not obsoleting the original Memory Stick. There will be an adapter for the Duo that will fit on the old memory stick slots.

So, if every Memory stick manufacturer on Earth stops producing the old Memory Stick in favour of the Duo, you can still use all the existing machines that have the old memory stick slots. Relax friends.

The Duo is a good thing -- I have seen pictures on a device that has 1 Memory Stick slot & 1 duo slot -- the duo slot for storage, the memory stick slot for camera/GPS/Bluetooth.

i read, the article only mentioned that the adapter is for the handheld...im worried about my camera...

The adpater will make a Memory Stick Duo act like a regular Memory Stick for all devices. I only phrased it that way because this is a handheld site.

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News Editor

Is it just me or is anyone else sick and tired of Sony constantly releasing new products, and then abandoning their existing base? You only have to look at cameras, camcorders or even pda's to know that once discontinued finding anything of relevance is left to those whom are dedicated or own the product. Sony should get other producers in addition to Acer to include the basic memory stick, (and while we're at it make the capacity higher so we give compact flash and SD a kick) rather than develop one technology after another and leave a wake of Beta Tapes in the history of technology.

To the 10:32 I.M. Anonymous poster,
You're right. Sony should stop improving its products and just release the same crapola for years on end. Hey, it worked for American car makers for decades until the Japanese car mfrs showed up. Ah, but of course Sony is a _Japanese_ mfr itself. Guess they'll just keep on innovatin' and I'll keep on buyin'. Hope your happy with your Emerson.

To everyone else,
Will the Duo be any quicker? Will the adapter cause any slowing of read/write from the already unimpressive speed of the full size MemStick? (I couldn't find enough info on the Memory Stick PR site and the Babelfish link isn't working, if the answer is there.)

i see, everybody is happy to have an adapter, but wait!... what about all the memory sticks i already bought - they ll definetely not work with the new devices, right? or did i miss a detail?

I can't beleive the stupid 'Sony is making the memory stick obsolete!' comments. Like the article said "Sony will continue to make both through at least 2005" - and its pretty obvious if its still selling, and meeting the above mentioned forecasts, they'll continue selling it beyond that. Now SD is another matter - only 1.8% of the mem card market!

There are Siemens phones out on the market that take MMC/SD cards.

As for Sony creating phones, take a look at http://www.sonyericsson.com

:)

Sony do make cell phones, I have a Sony Z7 on my desk as I write, one of their phones has an mp3 player built in and, I believe, uses MS.

Ian

The sony ericsson p800 cellphone will use a memory stick duo. This is in response to the person that said no cellphones use memory sticks.

And Sony dont make cellphones ? What rock you been living under.

Works fine for me. You might try this:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O32023DF

Here it is in the original Japanese:
www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/200206/02-0603/

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News Editor

Go to http://babelfish.altavista.com

then manually put in this address:

http://www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/200206/02-0603/

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What's Wrong With This Picture?
http://raj.phangureh.com/picture.html

It's called "PROGRESS", idiot.

" It's called "PROGRESS", idiot."

Stupid moronic comments like those make PIC forums unfriendly and barbarian like. I think the guy posting these things is the University of Puerto Rico Linux Troll.

Ed please remove those uncivilized comments.

The new DUO is to be used in DoCoMo cellphones in Japan. They will not replace the standard Memory Stick in any other device for the forseeable future.

The DUO is the smallest memory card on the market -- only 85% the size of an SD card. This makes removeable memory feasible for small mobile phones.

Sony WILL keep producing regular Memory Sticks. Here are their projections of the sales of both MS and MS DUO over the next couple of years:

FY2002:

-16 million regular Memory Sticks sold (36 million sold lifetime)
-1.9 million Memory Stick DUOs sold

FY2003:

-24 million regular Memory Sticks sold (60 million sold lifetime)
-7.2 million Memory Stick DUOs sold (9.1 million sold lifetime)

FY2004:

-60 million regular Memory Sticks sold (120 million sold lifetime)
-30 million Memory Stick DUOs sold (39.1 million sold lifetime)

Doesn't look to me like they're going to phase out the regular sticks. Again, the DUOs are strictly for cellphones (at the moment, anyway).

Here is a graph of this sales forecast, straight from the Sony conference:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/pc/docs/2002/0603/ms16.jpg

>That article about Sony's future plans is dated SUMMER _2001_!!!!

So?

You know I agree this sucks. I spent a fortune on 5.25 inch floppies about 15 years ago, and these days I can't use then in my PC at home, or my Visor, or my laptop. I tried to use one to store MP3 files for my player, and there was no way I could do it... And those punch cards I have... what about them?

Come on manufacturers.... get a grip. Stop making things faster better smaller and cheaper. While we're at it, let's get rid of electricity... my old gas lanterns are useless.... Wonder if the original poster is getting the message yet... It appears that his brain is certainly obsolete and hey prefers sticking his foot in his mouth and flapping his gums.

Damn. I just about managed to get rid of all my old Game Cartridges, going CD and DVD all the way...

well..... just thinkg how much CD-R/RW use to cost, in time solid state memory medium prices will drop, its a matter of time for the market to accept new technology (well its not that new, but to some it is)

Keep in mind MS-ROM will have a lower price tag than MS, and its not intended for consumers to purchase, its meant for the music industry to mass purchase keeping the cost down, its the idea where the music industry can use MS-ROM to distribute music, one added advantage is its weight, shipping costs will be down per number of albums sold.

first of all solid state is more reliable than CD which can be scratched, and they are smaller in size,
keep in mind, Sony's DUO idea is great, and no the full size memory stick is not going to be phased out, the physical size of the cases will allow a bigger IC chip to be incased. One example is Smart Media, because of the physical size they are reaching their limitations until new technology becomes available. Both SD/MMC and the DUO face the same problems, physical limitations while the full size memory stick doesn't have this same limitations. One reason Compact Flash is so widely accepted its larger physical size has allowed lager IC chips to be used (older lithogram technology) while keeping prices down.

What is this functionality? I use Memory Sticks, but I'm not aware of any inherant advantages either.

Sony WILL keep producing regular Memory Sticks. Here are their projections of the sales of both MS and MS DUO over the next couple of years:

FY2002:

-16 million regular Memory Sticks sold (36 million sold lifetime)
-1.9 million Memory Stick DUOs sold

FY2003:

-24 million regular Memory Sticks sold (60 million sold lifetime)
-7.2 million Memory Stick DUOs sold (9.1 million sold lifetime)

FY2004:

-60 million regular Memory Sticks sold (120 million sold lifetime)
-30 million Memory Stick DUOs sold (39.1 million sold lifetime)

Doesn't look to me like they're going to phase out the regular sticks. Obviously, to meet those sales projections, Sony will have to keep putting out devices that support the bigger card! Again, the DUOs are strictly for cellphones (at the moment, anyway).

Here is a graph of this sales forecast, straight from the Sony conference:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/pc/docs/2002/0603/ms16.jpg

Interesting discussion - we could have the same about batteries.

And it sure would be nice to have compatible batteries for all our devices, better still to have a single charger rather than carry one for the cell phone, one for the palmtop, camera, md/mp3 player, you name it.

YET, no one ever seems to complain - so what the is all the fuss about?

Yv

mashoutposse..

What is your problem? There's no need to post the same exact long message on more than one thread. Please stop the redundancy.


Jim

Do we really need multiple posts on how people find Sony's rapid innovation/product release schedule 'annoying?'

Do we really need multiple posts stating that regular Memory Sticks will be obsolete when that obviously isn't the case?

Do we really need more anti-Sony BS from those who don't know (or don't care to know) the whole story?

"Please stop the redundancy?" I fully agree.

"It's slower than SD to start with,"

Where do you get this? SD transfer rates are at 2MB/s and MS is at 2.4MB/s. If you try and post a link to the SanDisk site about technical specs, don't because the 10MB/s transfer rate they post refers to transfer speed from chip controller to memory and NOT card to device. Next time, make statements based on fact not conjecture.

"and while I see cool prototypes, at least SD has a single shipping IO device (bluetooth) in the hands of consumers."
uh...Sony shipped their MS camera module before the SD bluetooth card. Crappy as it is, it is still an I/O device.

"Real work gets done today, with real viable expansion options that have already shipped."

One SDIO device vs. one MSIO device (see above). 1.5% market share (SD) vs. 25% market share (MS). 30 million MS products shipped thus far vs. ??? SD products? Granted a majority of these products are from Sony, but so what? SD is making claims about connecting to a wide variety of products while MS is currently doing that. So what's your point?

"This projection stuff, and my expansion option will one day be better than yours, ego fluffing/bashing tripe is pointless."

Based on your "argument," isn't this comment a bit hypocritical and narrow-sighted as you have pointed out your own "ego fluffing/bashing tripe" as "pointless?"

"Where do you get this? SD transfer rates are at 2MB/s and MS is at 2.4MB/s."

The context is transfer rates on PalmOS devices. You'll get that throughput on exactly none of them. For starters you're limited to clockspeed /4. Now use PalmOS based Benchmark tools. Our current hardware knocks the the knees out of high speed serial transfers. Even there though. I've benchmarked nearly every Palm SD and clie going, except the NR70 which would have an advantage. SD often edges it out on most items tested. However neither of them compare to CF, where you have the benefit of 8 or 16 bit transfers (parallel vs. serial).

Now granted the whole thing will get revisited on ARM hardware. But my comments remain in the realm of what can you do today on current hardware, with current expansion options.

" If you try and post a link to the SanDisk site about technical specs."

Wouldn't, as stated I'm not interested in *anyone's* projections on theorectical hardware. And SD isn't my expansion choice anyway, I'm just saying if I didn't have CF as an option, it wouldn't likely be MS I'd move to next.

"Next time, make statements based on fact not conjecture."

That's a bit ironic, since that's in fact what I am doing. How about YOU do the gruntwork of benchmarking SD on an M515 versus MS in a 33Mhz Clie and get back to me with the "facts"... And we'll compare notes.

"uh...Sony shipped their MS camera module before the SD bluetooth card. Crappy as it is, it is still an I/O device."

Fair enough, I had forgotten that. I can conceed on that point. Now compare to my own preference, CF, where there's more IO options than clie models made, and that's saying something ;-)

"Real work gets done today, with real viable expansion options that have already shipped."

"One SDIO device vs. one MSIO device (see above). 1.5% market share (SD) vs. 25% market share (MS). 30 million "

Again with the SD/MS myopia. CF trumps both.

I ran a benchmark on my Clie and m515(VFS benchmark)and SD twice as fast to MS

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Uh, this only works out if the Duo is a better value than SD cards of similar sizes. Since the technology is new and the size of Duo's are 15% smaller, I don't see this happening. Smaller size almost always increases the cost.

Duo is a niche card, for niche Sony cellphones. I only see this move hurting Sony if they try and push it into handhelds any time soon.

"I'm not saying such adapter should or would be made, i'm just pointing out that it is physically possible..."

You did though state, *why* it would be done. My bias would say, what vested interest do I have in rewarding Sony for needlessly splintering the market anyway? If such an adapter is feasible, then great, turn it around and adapt SD to a MS slot, and do away with MS/duo. If nothing else, at least today, your performance would be better with SD (unless it's the Sony OS slot drivers that are the bottleneck on clies when benchmarked against SD and CF).

Perhaps Duo is referring to the apparent possibility that it will work with SD slots with an adaptor. See above thread.

I just wanted to point out to people that if you look at the end of my articles, you'll see a section called "Related Information", where I put links to other web pages with additional info. I'm not sure people notice this because the one for this article has a link to this same page that mdquerng is pointing out.

In the future, if you want to know more about an article, take a look under "Related Information".

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News Editor

Normal Memory Sticks will continue to be produced and distributed for at least 5 years - the average cycle for storage media is 8 yars. Even if Sony stopped producing standard Memory Sticks and devices tomorrow (which they won't), there would still be enough Memory Sticks still in stock circulation around the world to last consumer demand for the next 2-3 years. Despite this assurance, you have nothing to fear anyway: Sony haven't haven't even got to releasing 256+ sticks which are in production. Moreover, don't think of the duo as replacing the standard sticks. Think of the two serving two different product ranges and existing in parallel: they cater devices that require ultra-small storage (DUO) and those which require standard MS. The introduction of the Duo simply means that Sony and their licensees can develop even smaller products today: why wait till tomorrow if you can do something today? Ultimately consumers benefit, you and your existing device can continue to use normal MS, whilst new consumers (or those interested in upgrading devices) can benefit from smaller devices. No one loses. Remember, your device still has the same functionality you bought it for. It doesn't somehow magically lose functionality because a small storage medium has come onto market.

Besides, by the time normal Memory Sticks drop in circulation in 5 years time, you may have already changed your device anyway (in today's fast moving tech development cylces, would you really be using the same device in 5 years time or would you have sold it on eBay and upgraded?)

I personally don't like MiniDisc players, but must correct you on your false assumption: MiniDisc is the number 1 music storage format in Asia (Sony's biggest market) which means it is a successful format. Just because Sony failed in marketing the format in the USA does not necessarily mean that the technology is somehow 'bad'. To give you an idea, MP3 compatible MiniDisc players in Asia outsold chip-based MP3 players *worldwide* in 2001. Sony's new proprietary NetMD format (which others like Aiwa have signed up to) means that MiniDisc will continue to outsell MP3 technology.

With 246 companies signed up to develop MS devices, I think it has a bright future. Though, without proper marketing it may die out in next 3-5 years. If anything, MS is simply an alternative to CF/SD. This is capitalism. Let the best storage format win. In the meantime, choose devices with the format of your preference: no one forces you to buy Sony products. If Sony have a particular device then no-one else has, and you have no other choice, then quite frankly, Sony has every right to enforce it's standards upon you. It's up to the other companies in the marketplace to develop competing products to give you choice.

To the original poster:

If Palm abandons SD and goes for PalmStick, it sucks.
But when Sony goes for MemoryStick, it doesn't suck.

The difference is that Sony also produce Camcorder, Camera, laptop, desktop, and DVD player (coming out soon) that has Memory Stick slots. The memory stick has a purpose -- to interconnect electronic devices. PalmStick will only be used as a storage medium.

Hence, it's wise for Palm to go for SD/CF, while Sony can go for Memory Stick.

Duo stick starts at 16MB, cos it's designed for cellphone for now; since those targeted cellphone can't play MP3, Duo is only used to store phone book/snap shot of photos using the built-in camera. 16MB is quite enough for that.

AFAIK, the largest capacity CF device available is the 1 GB IBM Microdrive.

There's this company that makes CF cards - maybe you've heard of it - SanDisk?? They um...released a 1GB CF card about a week ago - it's not cheap at about $850 street price ($1,000 MSRP). Why don't you do the most basic of research before you shart being vulgar about things you obviously know nothing about.

>> Every new sony device being produced from now on will probably have the Duo slot which means that anyone who invested in regular memory stick can go shove'em up his you know what. <<

This comment brought to you by the CEO of "Baseless ASSumptions-R-Us." Why don't you READ the article, or READ some of the posts? This is just more of the tired anti-Sony bullsh** that we hear every time they release a new product.

"Sony's new proprietary NetMD format (which others like Aiwa have signed up to) means that MiniDisc willcontinue to outsell MP3 technology."

Um, Sony owns Aiwa (they use it basically as a bargain brand for certain entertainment device lines), so saying that they've signed on to some proprietary Sony format is not a significant endorsement.

Who cares about the 90% when the the 10% includes names like IBM, Compaq, HP and Palm. The point is, anyone who claims that MS is just a Sony vision is a non-debate(these companies are not stupid nor are they Sony's slaves - many are fierce competitors). Whether MS will be successful in the long run is another issue and certainly open to debate.

The car manufacturers plan to use MS technology for their on-car computer technology - so that drivers can manage the settings of their cars on the PC or PDAs and transfer the saved settings into the car's CPU via MS.

Prototype cars by these manufacturers carry CPUs which manage everything from your music preferences, air conditioning settings, entertainment preferences, GPS data to even to engine tuning etc.

"Memory sticks are *still* propriatory technology!

They are NOT designed or owned by a selection of industry bodies, they are not a 'standard' they are a technology to which Sony owns the rights and is doing so to corner the market for their own ends."

And SD isn't? Read up on industry facts. Panasonic, Toshiba and SanDisk created the format and is licensing it to member companies. Is it proprietary? Yes, because Panasonic, Toshiba and SanDisk is NOT an industry body. Sure, they call it the SD association, but don't get caught up on titles. The reality is that SD, like MS, is a proprietary format. So get off your "Sony is staging world domination" kick.

The only "open" format is CF.

BS. Compare the specs. The card is like 100mm3 smaller than a MMC card. Which in turn is 600mm3 smaller than an SD card. Niether of which are noticeably smaller.

All three formats are in the same exact category. Now compare value and make your choice.

Realistically I wouldn't put money in either until hell freezes over...or at least when Marketing gets hungry again.

I didn't say it was one third the length, I said it was one third the size. A Memory Stick is 3010 cubic mm while a Memory Stick Duo is 992 cubic mm. See, I can match anyone when it comes to being pedantic. :-) The Duo is not just shorter than a regular one, it is also thinner.

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News Editor

Yarg! You're absolutely correct. Sorry, I meant to write "size" and I thought I had written "size". I've just changed the article so it says "size".

Hopefully you'll cut me some slack as I'm just getting back from a week's vacation. Getting back in the grind is hard.

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News Editor

READ THE FREAKIN' ARTICLE. Better yet, learn how to read. Then maybe you'll learn how to spell. "Standard" not "Standerd."

Are SD cards compatible with regular sized Memory Stick slots?

This format is to be used in super-small devices, like Japanese cellphones, where size matters. The fact that the DUO is backwards-compatible with the larger MS slots allows cellphone users to transfer their data to their PCs/PDAs without fuss.

BTW, the MS DUO is smaller than SD.

What I don't get is why people would even think of suggesting SD... SD is supported by only a select few devices, and has FAR less marketshare than Memory Stick. At least the MS DUO will be backwards-compatible with the larger slots (meaning that it can be used in ALL Memory Stick enabled devices) -- why bring up SD when it is supported by so few devices?

SD is supported by FAR fewer devices than Memory Stick. FACT. So why change over to SD?

> SD is supported by only a select few devices, and
> has FAR less marketshare than Memory Stick

Since SD is currently on pretty much every brand of PDA now except for Sony, I would say that is the marketshare that counts for the audience here. There are various other devices from major manufacturers using SD as well.

>I'm a bit weary...

And I'm WEARY of the Sony apologists who troll this forum as well as WARY of their objectivity. ;-)

>Going by your posts, you obviously don't own any MS-enabled Sony products

Wrongo. A T615C is my primary PDA, and is sitting 4" away from my left elbow. A 32MB Memory Stick is 2" to the left of it, which happens to be stacked on top of a 28MB MMC/SD card I use for testing.

>so why does this news concern you?

Because as a Palm OS developer with commercial interests, my direct experience with supporting end-users with Clies is endless frustration because they (Sony) refuse to provide or support expansion hardware devices - even the ones that they make but sell elsewhere - expansion devices that add function to my software products on other manufacturers' devices. That their newly-announced next generation expansion format is intentionally incompatible with the rest of the industry perpetuates this cycle. I'm tired of it.

Personally? I love the Clie's form factor as well as the Memory Stick's size; MMC/SD gets lost in my pocket. It's the support, or rather, it's lack that frosts me.

did anybody notice that SD is as prorprietary as MS !? just because Sony came out with MS first in Japana and Asia thats why Matsushita has to goto the US to make a jump start for SD.

LoL if you go on the street and say how MS is proprietary and how Sd is open standard, remember to cover your face or put on some makeup, you don't want to look stupid in your real face..