Comments on: Palm OS Laptop Replacement Coming for Students

Aren't you fed-up to wait for Windows to boot, crash, take more and more memory to do basically the same thing as they did before, but with nicer icons or amazing sounds ?

How about something with a big screen, a keyboard, a touch screen (quite better system than a mouse, it's direct), some memory

AND

low-power consumption, no crash, millions of apps (I mean thousands...) and a good look and feel which allow first time users as power user to feel good with their device. Just something useful, for the right price and compatible enough with market standard.

Of course, you may still need a big PC or Mac to do video editing and burn CDs, but for most average users, simple solution may be enough.

Remember GeoWorks Ensemble ? Why did they take so long to add Word Documents import/export ? If they did so just at the begining, they could still be alive...

Keep it simple...

The problem I have with it though is that the screen is still too small (tho I like the expanded width) and the price is still too high. I would have preferred to see at least a five-inch diagonal (landscape orientation) with Sony's version of hi-res. If it had that -- even if it were monochrome, it would have been a much more marketable device. In its current form, it should be $100 cheaper...

But, I also have to commend; as the first Palm device with integrated keyboard and USB ports, this thing is really a kick-ass first-gen device. I look forward to the price coming down, the screen getting bigger, and the eventual integration of a basic color screen. Two thumbs up for concept and execution!

Just a shame the b-mate never made it out the door.. but you can theoretically upgrade the emate to the StrongARM...

If you introduce handhelds in a classroom, the first two weeks have to be on learning Graffiti. If you spend a similar time learning to type, it will be useful on all computers.

While a small size is great for executives, it can be a disadvantage with kids, who lose things more easily and drop things a lot more.

The main advantage over a regular laptop is price. Not just the purchase price. Recent studies have shown that the Total Cost of Ownership of a handheld is less than $500 a year. It is about $12,000 for a laptop, once you factor in support and software.

Don't ignore convenience. It is much easier to support a Palm than a laptop. Backing up data is far easier, which is important as students are likely to be sharing these things.

I really don't see this interesting anyone but the eggiest of the eggheads out there. The asking price is much too high, but as the first poster said, it is a very brave move. Kudos to whomever green-lighted the project though!

This won't be marketed to students, so its hipness isn't important. It will be marketed to schools, who are perpertually short on money and are looking for low cost solutions.

Don't ignore support issues. If you think it is hard to find someone at your company who will do good tech support, imagine how much harder it is for a school, who can pay 30% less, if they have a budget for a tech support person at all. I'd much rather do support on 30 Palm OS devices than 30 laptops. Just keeping my one laptop going is sometimes a full-time job.

Look, kids are going to break _anything_ and everything you put in front of them. While overall, the operating costs of a laptop probably do outweigh this device by far, being of an all-in-one design always leads to problems. If a kid bashes the keyboard in, you can't just stick a new $5 PS/2 keyboard on in its place. If a kid breaks the LCD screen with a violent index finger, you can't exactly go into the spare parts room and return with an old 14" CRT and use that in its place. In an ideal world, this device would be a boon to educators, but it'll just present a whole new world of problems to deal with. Kids will always be kids....

I think that ANY computer in the classroom, even if it's a 486 running windows 90, provided it has online capabilities and printer access, is sufficient for learning the basics. Most of these kids whose parents can afford PCs have far superior machine at home anyway. Those who don't have a PC at home will benefit from even an old XT machine in the corner. You can hit them over the head with new-fangled technology all day long, but if they have not learned any responsibility or appreciation for it, then what good does it do? You'll just end up with a never-ending list of broken keyboards, stolen mouse "balls" and broken CD-ROM trays. Fix the problem at the source before trying to pour more $ on it.

i think this would be good for a few people. i dont know how good this would be in class and i carry my dell laptop with me to school... and i know by the end of the day my shoulders hurt some, so maybe this could be the good laptop replacment for schools like said before. i know if i didnt care that it was as ugly as handeras new handheld coming soon, i would probably get it if i didnt already have an NR70 and a new laptop.

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Proud owner of the NR70v and a new sexy Dell inspiron 8100... GO DELL!!
www.handecomputing.com

But how much are you willing to pay for a device like this?

I'd be willing to pay $150 if it also had a built in modem. I wish, too, that it had a taller screen than 160. But if it was only $50, I'd buy it just to have a spare rugged palm around for entering large amounts of text. It would be more convenient than an attachable fold-up keyboard that has to be on a flat surface to use.

For $400, I expect at least color, wireless ethernet built-in, and a web browser that can take advantage of the larger screen with the features that Xiino has.

Kids don't need to play games or surf the net; they need to learn how to write papers, record research, do more complex math, and maybe even do a little programming. And of course, there are thousands of other things that they can do with the Palm OS.

For schools that are strapped for cash, this offers something that they can send home with kids, rather than a bunch of desktops in the classrooms, and it's a heck of a lot cheaper and more stable than laptops. Imagine the classroom with one or two networked PCs, with the ability to sync and print from two dozen of these things...

I hope they've made them pretty "bullet-proof" (and made screen-replacement reasonably easy for the inevitable accidents!)

Who pays 500 to maintain their pda? and who the hell pays 12,000 for software and support?

Once you factor in support and software costs, a handheld costs about $500 a year and the laptop much, much more.

When you are supporting your laptop, it doesn't cost you anything. But if you are a tech support person at a school, you have to be paid. Spending three hours reinstalling Windows 2K for the third time is irritating for you. It costs the school at least $50 to pay someone to do it. That's why simpler is better. The worst that can happen is you have to hard reset a Dana and it is ready to go again. That's 3 seconds verses 3 hours.

An expensive Palm app is $30. An expensive Microsoft app is $300. If that weren't bad enough, imagine buying 30 of them for a classroom.

If you don't think keeping students or employees supplied with computers is expensive, you haven't been paying attention.

Anyways, schools won't be buying these machines, why ?? because it's a known fact that most people think palm is just an over priced organizer, people buy it because of the cool factor.

Anyway keep this a secret if microsoft could sell X-box for $350, an average Celeron PC will cost even les if they got a deal from Dell

1. School systems can barely afford 300-600 a pc for the classrom
2. School systems cannot buy microsoft office for less than $60 (maybe if you buy site licenses by the hundreds). We pay @70 bucks per license thats at 25-50 licenses
3. As most in public education know most school systems don't have licenses to cover the computers they have.
4. I have seen all-in-one units of all os's come and go they have all been junked within months of use and are costly to fix.
5. The only thing that will catch on is something in the $50-100 price range that is so damn easy to use that even principals/teachers with their Phd's can use without calling a Tech everyday. And can easily print email, browse the net and have what is required by the state curriculum.

This might work in small classrooms with closely monitored students or as a easy way to take a computer home to type with. But what I would like to see catch on more than anything else is USB removable media(thumbdrives).

PalmPilot-Series (160x160, 1-Bit-monochrome)

Palm III-Series, (160x160, 4 Grayscales)

Palm IIIx-Series, Vx-Series, m10x, Handspring Visor-Series (160x160, 4-Bit)

Handera 330 (320x200, 4-Bit)

Palm IIIc (160x160, 8-Bit)

Handspring Treo 270, 90 (160x160, 12-Bit)

Palm m5x5, m130, Visor Prism (160x160,16-Bit)

Handera 330c (320 x 240, 16-Bit)

Sony Clié PEG T-410 (320x320, 4-Bit)

AlphaSmart Dana (560 x 160, 4-Bit)

Sony Clié PEG N-710 (320x320, 8-Bit)

Sony Clié PEG N-770, N-760, T-610 (320x320, 16-Bit)

Sony Clié PEG NR-Series (320x480, 16-Bit)

So that's 13 different resolutions and colour-depths for operating system that does not even offer built-in support for different resolutions.

Some may say this proves the versatility of the OS. For me this is a nuisance. For a while I used a Clie N770, but a lot of the older software did not support the hires-screen, some even crashing the system. Of course you can set the preferences to exclude certain apps from hires-mode, but this does not work, when you run the apps form memory stick.

On another note: This Dana reminds me very much of the Psion Netbook and Series 7.

this should be 320x240, and for the NR clie (I have the 70V) you can just use SwitchDash that works to exclude programs on the mem stick from HiRes

Now all we need to do is add OS version, amt. of RAM, type/speed of CPU and a few more pertinent details and submit it to PIC to keep as a regularly updated table of every device from the Pilot 1000 to the Sony NRs and beyond. Ed, are you listening?

You can get an excellent overview of the development of all Palm-powered devices at:

www.deeptec.com/palmevolution/milestones.html

Thanks for the complement on palmevolution - I've updated the Milestones page with the announcement of this cool new evolutionary branch (the "Palm Tree" update won't happen 'til Wednesday at the earliest...).

BTW, for people referencing the site, please use the root URL: www.palmevolution.com -- it's currently redirecting but will be hosted elsewhere soon.

Cheers,

Dan

Don't expect an instant cut-over to all new products being ARM even after OS 5 comes out because there is nothing that makes OS 4 obsolete. We've got software compatibility back and forth. If a particular company likes the price/performance of 68K, and already has some work underway on it, or just feels it is more appropriate for their particular product, that's fine.

Over time I expect that eventually everything will become ARM-based but I think it can easily be a couple of years in transition. That's going to sound really weird to your on-line readers because they are out on the crusty edge of innovation but not everybody pushes out to the same degree.

I'd like to see more of these type devices, maybe one with color? Maybe one from handspring? :) Its a nice original idea that needs copycatting. Whats great about this kind of profile is that you can introduce a lot of different things. I'd like to see one with more than one expansion type. CF, SD, Memory stick, Springobard, its got the body for it. It would probably boost the price by a lot, but hey, I'm dreaming here. Infact, I'm suprised that they didn't put anything else in, maybe ethernet or wireless ethernet. If it was really targetting for school they could sell an entire package for class rooms.
Wonder if this one will show up in compusa.

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

This unit may very well have it's place outside of the classroom...

Looking at the back of the device, it looks like there's one USB master type connection and one slave. My guess is that one is to sync with (slave connection). The other (USB master) is probably just to attach USB serial devices (unless they write drivers for other USB peripherals, maybe network).

Living in San Fran, I won't even get into the current education fad called new-new math or Whole Math or Mickey Mouse Math by detractors. I won't even get into the poor math skills of kids. I've tutored many first-year college kids who have gone through this new-new math and I can't tell you how bad they are at basic math. These kids aren't ready for Calculus let alone Algebra. Many can't even do basic math like 10% of 200 without using a calculator. They claim the math is too hard ?!? Factor a basic polynomial. Heck, they need to use their TI-89 calculators with CAS (Computer Algebra System) to do that.

Now, Educators want to push PDAs and other crutches. Heck with AIs in the future, why even send kids to school. Let the AI go to school. Kids should just play "educational" video games all day long so they can train for that million dollar a year job for goofing off.

I am a technophile, but I do have to say I agree here. I am 21 now btw, so high school isn't too far away for me, and my math teacher wouldn't allow us calculators till we started Trig, where theory is more important. Well that and standard exams, as they were allowed there, she didn't want us to lose points on that, but in class, and for homework, they werent allowed. And if she didn't see your long division, then you used a calc, and lost points. I have to say it helped a lot for me, and I don't see a need for HS students to carry laptops or jr high to need PDA's.

as for new math and such -- i HATE it!! at my middle school the 6th and 7th grade math classes were new math style stuff. all my friends had to go through it and they got so frustrated by it. when they reached 8th grade where it was algebra they were screwed

im glad i never did new math!

All of this aside however, they need to get the price below $300 - at $250 this would be infinitely enticing to cash strapped schools. Maybe it won't fly in the U.S./Canada/Europe - but think of how good this would be in poorer countries that haven't really standardized on a particular platform. Again though - they've got to get the price down (after 6 months we will probably see the price drop by %10-20).

Obviously a clamshell would not have been a good idea in a student environment. It's just one more part that can be broken.

Native hi-res games are not of a concern to AlphaSmart as this is market towards educational institutions and not students, but 160x160 games run fine on it anyway. I guess if you wanted a project you could port Lemmings to this screen even if it didn't use the whole width =)

-Bartman007

When we can get out of this stupid square for good and start developing screens that offer different orientations, that'll be an improvement.

Sony allows 2x3 ratio screen. If they could push that into landscape mode we can have a whole bunch of interesting devices.

if you write games - you surely dont rely on the API's

also, keep in mind that Handera screwed up the way they handle 1.5x screens - the API didn't work. how many games work on the handera in scale-to-fit mode? you ask for a 160x160 window, and, they gave you a 240x240 one. if you use direct access, you were screwed. i was on the pre-release developer test team for Handera 330 - and, the bottom line it was more important to support enterprise solutions than games.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

The screen can also rotate. There is a program that lets you change the view from landscape to vertical. So, you can hold it like a notepad and continue to do your work. When in vertical view, the screen stretches the full length if the display giving you more room to view.

Here is an example of it: http://www.alphasmart.com/pdf/dana_by_alphasmart.pdf

Well DUH, Aaron. HandEra marketed almost exclusively to businesses, not to gamers. The 330 was never meant to be a gamers' paradise, it was meant to be a workhorse business machine. Yes, the CLIE screen is much nicer for gaming. And the 330's screen is much nicer for actually getting some work done. Deal.

if you write games - you surely dont rely on the API's

Then if you write games, you surely don't do what Palm(Source) has been screaming for you to do (follow the forking API!) for years. If your stuff breaks on a new device, then, it's your own damn problem. That's like complaining that your new car is too wide to fit on the sidewalk.

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This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

we didn't complain - we just rewrote the API level so it would work (Handera's code was ****e). the problem is that Handera didn't make the unit as compatible with application as it should have..

if you follow the API's - you end up having crap games. as a gamer, and a developer - its common that when a new unit comes out; a new version may be required. thats the way it goes. i dont think we'll be wasting the time we spent on the Handera 330 to do a similar thing on this unit. Handera specifically broke Palm(Sources)'s guidelines with the way they implemented the window manager layer.

Handera is surely one of the units at the bottom of my "device list" preferences; while it may work nicely with word processing/business type applications (once the applications are modified), it did not provide great compatibility with existing applications.

a color Handera *could* use picture-in-picture support of the SED1376 display controller to do native 160x160 applications that access the screen correctly; but, we will probably never see such a beast (publically).

i also dont know why you "preach" the Handera 330; its outdated, obsolete.. Handera stopped making devices because it was more profitable to work with other licenseeäs like this. its a big war out there, which, SONY and Palm will probably end up dominating in the long run; you have to accept that.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

You seem to be doing quite a bit of it now. Sorry, but there's nothing requiring hardware developers to provide you a mechanism to bang on the hardware where you can assume it is 160x160. Palm has been clear on that in their docs for years. I doubt these teachers/parents want their kids playing your gamez on these machines anyhow.

> it did not provide great compatibility with existing applications.

Utterly false. Most applications have work perfectly fine on the HandEra 330.

> the Handera 330; its outdated, obsolete.

Kind of hard to obsolete a device when there is absolutlely nothing (at least running Palm OS) to replace it.

If you're going to complain about every resolution that pops up for the Palm OS, I'd suggest moving to the GameBoy or something like that.

Sorry, but there's nothing requiring hardware developers to provide you a mechanism to bang on the hardware where you can assume it is 160x160. Palm has been clear on that in their docs for years.

i have been developing on the palm for around three years now, and, i know what Palm wants to complain about and what they dont want to complain about. we are well aware that they say "dont do this, dont do that" but, you should care to know our software does abide by every rule Palm lays down. for example, we blit to the screen if we *know* the hardware.. if we dont? we use API routines. for example:

globals->fnClear = (globals->scr160x160)
? (void *)GraphicsClear_asm
: (void *)GraphicsClear_api;
globals->fnRepaint = (globals->scr160x160)
? (void *)GraphicsRepaint_asm
: (void *)GraphicsRepaint_api;

this code has been taken from the Cube3D program (which you can find on www.ardiri.com) - as you can see, when we know a specific screen depth - we use custom written assembly routines (for speed). in all other cases, we use an API.

Palm specifically states that it is ok to access the "buffer contents" of an offscreen window as long as you use an API to blit it to the screen. this has proven correct even on PalmOS 5.0.

the problem i originally stated was that Handera *broke* this rule. you asked for an offscreen window, you assumed it was the size you wanted, you accessed it directly - and blitted with an API - WOLA, only on Handera units did it not work.

it *used* to work on the first 8-9 beta versions of the OS, however, Handera realized that many people use offscreen windows for help screens and to reduce flicker - so, they updated the code so it would work better with the hi-res fonts. this is where they chose "looking better" with existing applications over "complete compatibility" with existing applications. that was Handera's market tho - enterprise. not gaming. saying it is 100% compatible is a complete lie.

Handera did have a "scale-to-fit" algorithm for copying windows, however, it was buggy. unless you did a full screen update, it would incorrectly draw. we ended up writing our own "scaler" from 160x160 -> 240x240 which could handle partial screen updates.

while i could go on forever about this - to rebutt to your comment on "bad programming"; we abide by every rule set out, and, cheat where we know we can - cheating of course, getting around the API's.

I doubt these teachers/parents want their kids playing your gamez on these machines anyhow.

now, thats exactly why i said it was for vertical markets only - its not got "general" consumers.

Utterly false. Most applications have work perfectly fine on the HandEra 330.

how many games run perfectly on a Handera 330 in scale-to-fit mode? yes, i am talking about games here, not office applications. there are a few games that have *updated* themselves to run on the Handera 330 - but, i dont call that compatibility.

i know of many games from the larger game companies that dont run on the Handera 330..

Kind of hard to obsolete a device when there is absolutlely nothing (at least running Palm OS) to replace it.

virtual grafitti turn you on? where doesn't 320x320 beat 240x320? a 320x320 display is much larger, however more condensed.. the NR70's 320x480 is surely better than the 240x320 - its twice the size, and, has the same features? thats a possibility to replace it no?

If you're going to complain about every resolution that pops up for the Palm OS, I'd suggest moving to the GameBoy or something like that.

look at my comment previously about writing compatible applications; hopefully it will make sense to you.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

Heh, I'd assume the companion model to Dana must surely be called Fox <grin>

No way is this a desktop. There is nothing about it that would make it a desktop. Nothing ties it down. Nothing makes it too bulky to carry. It's smaller and lighter than most laptops :)

-Dave

Audrey could do a lot more than this for the same initial price. Color 640x480, modem, USB Ethernet option, decent web browser, RealAudio player, etc. It also would sync date and address books for multiple users with Palms. I wonder how schools would manage that multiple students would probably use the same device?

Now with some kind of network connectivity, it could be a replacement for those mail station type devices.

There are a few cell phones out there with IrDA wireless modems as well.

-mrhockey

I'm moving this thread up with the other TRS-80 one. -Ed

There are actually still people here in Austria that use this machine, since it has a full sized keyboard.

Take a look at it at:

http://www.algonet.se/~dennisgr/z88.htm

This device looks remarkably similar, is much cheaper, though I don't see any info on battery life. If battery life is good it would be great for taking notes in class or writing in coffee shops...

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The AlphaSmart 3000, a current product in the AlphaSmart family, runs on 3 AA batteries and has been known to go for more than 300 hours.

For the record, I received my AlphaSmart 3000 in May 2001, and only just recently, this June 2002, changed the first set of batteries that came with the machine. I average about 5,000 words a week on the AlphaSmart, writing about an hour most nights.

The Dana will also run on 3 AA batteries, plus have a rechargeable power option. It will also have a backlit screen, which the AlphaSmart 3000 doesn't have. Someone has said, even if the Dana gets a quarter of the battery life of the AlphaSmart 3000, it would still be worth it.

Maybe not being ble to easily connect to the Net is an advantage. Boring lectures on U.S. history are made much more enjoyable by visits to porn sites.

This seems like a terrible idea - too big to pocket, too small to use as a daily machine, too expensive for students, too limited for professionals...

With that many bad ideas, this MUST have been designed by someone at Palm. Either that, or maybe Pontiac... :)

I think their keyboard design was just right in the trade off for size and use. The 5mx series has the best of them, though.

Palm OS is not anywhere near as sophisticated as EPOC, but as we all know, _appropriate_ rather than _powerful_ is the Palm strength.

I really hope these get to Australia!

http://www.psion.co.uk/series7/

Take a look:
www.palminfocenter.com/images/img_PS_Future_1_L.JPG

---
News Editor

"AlphaSmart already has shipped nearly one million simple, easy-to-use educational devices that let students focus on their coursework and let teachers focus on teaching. Dana combines the advantages of AlphaSmart's current products with the powerful capabilities and wealth of applications available for the Palm OS platform."

With almost a million Alphasmarts running around out there, I would tend to trust the name. Check out your local school district. See if they are using alphasmarts. Changes are, they are using them.

The only freaking thing we want is a ebook device cheap. I am tired of lugging around pounds of books on my back. Its so bad that people seem to use backpacks with wheels now.

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Dana will come with the PalmReader. 'Nuf said.

Are you really comparing this product with a low end PDA. Look at the features, the included software, etc. The screen alone probably costs AlphaSmart close to $50.00

Hmmm ... yes, I posted it above about 8 hours ago. Nobody seemed to care then either. They'll have to provide drivers for whatever they plan to hook to it. I wonder how quickly it'll suck the batteries dry when in use.

Well, since USB printers are usually powered by an AC adapter, the only power used would be the power to make the connection and send the data. It doesn't have to actually power the whole device. Some devices would require the power from the Dana, but that's the price you pay for the great feature. Hey, the port is there, the choice to use it is yours :) (Seems the only port missing from the Dana is a firewire hehe)

For under $300, you don't get a monitor. So it would be pretty difficult to use.

How long does a pc work before becoming obsolete?

Andale Pues!

1) Yet another proprietary screen resolution from Sony
2) Another different connector (USB)
3) This thing is HUGE !!! even bigger than Clie NR how am I going to carry it in my pocket ?
4) Sony is going out of the PDA Bussiness in 2003

because it's made by some company other than Sony so this will be a success LoL

1. Finally another screen resolution with a real purpose.

2. Another Port (hmm, but a standard one)

3. Huge? smaller and lighter than a laptop, by a long shot.

4. AlphaSmart already has a place and a name in education.