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Comments on: Palm to Release XScale Powered Handheld in 2003

According to DigiTimes, Palm Inc. is going to release a handheld that runs the new Palm OS 5 on an Intel PXA250 microprocessor, part of the company's XScale line. This microprocessor can operate at up to 400 MHz. Palm's XScale powered handhelds will be available early next year, which means they won't be the company's first devices to run Palm OS 5.
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Woo Hoo!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 9:33:59 AM #
Woo Hoo!
RE: Woo Hoo!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 10:52:47 AM #
Sony or Handspring will p-rob release one b4 palm does
RE: Woo Hoo!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 9:23:32 AM #
Woo hoo what? Palm will screw this up like they do evrerything else and you didn't notice that they are late???

OK, time to decide

sandbuck @ 6/18/2002 9:37:51 AM #
First of all this is HUGE news! I can't wait till next year, so I've got to figure out how force myself to sell the first OS 5 device that I will surely buy this fall, and resist the urge to "collect" <-- :/.

My stack of old PDAs is getting a little bit to big:

Pilot Pro
Visor Plat
M505 (current)

Must sell OS 5 M5xx in January....must...sell.....

Good news

sub_tex @ 6/18/2002 9:55:08 AM #
It's going to be an interesting end of the year this year and going into next year as well.

Who knows what new things will be added to Palm OS?

I know it'll be weird to start thinking about video and other multimedia thins on a Palm, not a PPC.

Good stuff.

:)

Why!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 10:05:11 AM #
Why! Palm better make some apps to take advantage of this processor! How about some video! Some audio! They have said it before! I hope os 5 is what they say it will be! Time will tell!
RE: Why!
mtg101 @ 6/18/2002 10:09:01 AM #
Why should a hardware company make video / audio software???

Assuming you meant PalmSource - I think you'll find that they consider Video Players and MP3 players the domain of the application develper - not the OS.

PalmOS applications already provide video and audio apps - mainly for the Clie at the moment - but once OS5 comes out I'm sure there will be many more.

---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

RE: Why!
sandbuck @ 6/18/2002 10:15:25 AM #
It's pretty tricky to write software before the hardware comes out.

RE: Why!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 10:20:42 AM #
This is an example of what I call "The Microsoft Attitude". For so long Microsoft has made the operating system and been the major developer of applications that people expect all the companies who make an OS to also develop most of the apps. That isn't the way Palm does things. It is going to release the hardware and let third party developers make the applications.
RE: Why!
mtg101 @ 6/18/2002 11:00:45 AM #
>It's pretty tricky to write software before
>the hardware comes out.

Not really - you just use the PalmOS 5 Simulator available from www.palmos.com/dev

This is hos many PalmOS developers are checking their applications work with the news OS - and writing upgrades to take advantgaes to the extra speed or extra funcionaltiy.

---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

RE: Why!
sandbuck @ 6/18/2002 12:18:53 PM #
For multimedia or game apps, how do you compensate for the speed differences between POSE and an actual device?

RE: Why!
Altema @ 6/18/2002 12:40:55 PM #
"For multimedia or game apps, how do you compensate for the speed differences between POSE and an actual device?"

Both multimedia apps and games can check the clock speed in Palm OS and adjust themselves accordingly. If the emulator is running at a slower equivalent speed, then the app can compensate... to a point. This is how TealMovie and Kinoma Player can sync the video and audio and play them at the correct speed. Zap!2000 will adjust your scoring based on overclocking or underclocking. If you want to have some fun with one of the movie players and FastCPU, launch the application with the processor overclocked, then turn FastCPU off and play a movie. Slow motion!

RE: Why!
mtg101 @ 6/18/2002 12:42:50 PM #
I'm no multimedia / games developer guru (aaron if you're listeneing - help me out here!) - but from what I understand you don't just try and get a game / media app to run as fast as possible. If you did then the game / media app would go faster when there's less to process than when there's lots to process.

So a game or media app will try and perform it's updates a set amount of times a second. The PalmOS provides the SysTicksPerSecond() function which gives for any given device the number of 'ticks' (sort of quantum time particles for the application developer) per second. Using this you can use the emulator / simulator quite well to create games and media apps.

Obviously you'll still need to test on real devices eventually - but most of the development can be done without real devices.



---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

Asus

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 10:14:38 AM #
Actually the most exciting thing to me is that they will be built by ASUS. ASUS has a reputation for making outstanding products. Their motherboards have long been considered some of the best around. Half my PC is ASUS components.
RE: Asus
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:01:34 AM #
As I said before, they will be OEM by Taiwan.
RE: Asus
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:45:25 AM #
Like I said, built by Asus for Palm.
RE: Asus
popko @ 6/18/2002 12:58:04 PM #
Hummm ... Asus has their own line of PPCs you know.

RE: Asus
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 1:42:50 PM #
Its all rather interesting. Their Pocket PCs will carry the ASUS name and use the same XScale processor and an SD/MMC slot, same as the new Palms, plus they are close to Palm m5xx series in size.

They will be OEM for Palm so they can esentially play both sides of the fence. Asus will be the one company that is certain to win the PPC vs. Palm battle. They win either way! Brilliant.

RE: Asus
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 5:17:52 PM #
http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1639&p=2

-- ASUS's PPC looks like a CLIE! Oh, the irony!

RE: Asus
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 8:20:37 PM #
I came from Taiwan, and I know Asus is a nice and big company there. They not only produce motherboards for desktop PC, but also make nice video cards and even a PockPC as well. It is very natural for a big company to have a lot of different products. I personally used some Asus motherboards and a notebook, the quality is very nice and reliable. I will expected to buy a Palm OEM by Asus.

Pilot production?

Scott R @ 6/18/2002 11:02:07 AM #
"Pilot production is scheduled to begin later this year and the company plans to make 200,000 units during the first quarter of next year."

Wow, they're bringing back the Palm Pilot! ;)

Scott

RE: Pilot production?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:07:07 AM #
pilot means precursor or experimental in this case
RE: Pilot production?
Scott R @ 6/18/2002 11:47:35 AM #
You must have missed the wink: ;)

Scott

Sai Yo Na Na , Micro$oft !

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:02:30 AM #
PPC will be history soon, thanks GOD...
RE: Sai Yo Na Na , Micro$oft !
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:15:09 AM #
Pretty typical posting by a Palm zealot.
RE: Sai Yo Na Na , Micro$oft !
Scott R @ 6/18/2002 12:39:06 PM #
Pretty typical of the sort of nonsense that occurs often at PIC. :(

Scott

RE: Sai Yo Na Na , Micro$oft !
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 4:25:04 PM #
yeah everyone else assumes Microsoft will simply buy off the market just like they did with xbox hehe

That pounding sound you hear

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:04:15 AM #
is another nail being driven into the Pocket PC coffin. This time next year, the ENTIRE handheld market--low, middle, high--will be CLEARLY dominated by PalmOS handhelds, whether they're manufactured by Palm, Sony, Handspring, or even HandEra. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING PocketPC has as a so-called "feature" will be unique to PPC. PalmOS will be able to do everything PPC does. What's more, those who don't crave all those features will be able to purchase a nice, inexpensive PalmOS model that will be that much easier, and more stable, to use.

iPaq? Buh-bye.
Casio? Buh-bye.
Toshiba? On the way out, but probably the last survivor.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 12:20:34 PM #
Get a life. Palm will never more dominate the handheld market.
RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 12:50:40 PM #
But I don't want video, movies, animation, or videogames on my PDA. I just want the ZEN OF PALM.
And neither do I want to pay $599 for a PALM either.

We all know PALM is going to milk the market by charging as much as it can bear. Expect $599 from PALM for the ARM-based PDAs.

Frankly, I'll stick with my Palm Vx which does everything I want it to do.


RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 1:03:18 PM #
>>Get a life. Palm will never more dominate the handheld market.

But Palm already dominates the market. It has more than 85% of the market.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
taxus @ 6/18/2002 1:24:03 PM #
Well, I can already see one of Palm's slogans next year: "the fastest PDA on the market".

While PPCs won't be able to run the X-Scale at more than 206MHz, Palms will.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 4:35:54 PM #
> But Palm already dominates the market. It has more than 85% of the market.

Their current marketshare is about 60%

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 6:00:42 PM #
wrong, palm os handhelds currently hold about 85% of the market...
RE: That pounding sound you hear
Kesh @ 6/18/2002 6:27:03 PM #
>While PPCs won't be able to run the X-Scale at more than 206MHz, Palms will.

Uh, not quite. Toshiba just released the e740, which has a 400MHz XScale PXA250 processor.

Now, the PPC2002 OS doesn't take full advantage of XScale, but it does support the faster processors.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 7:20:18 PM #
Sheesh, 90% of statistics are made up! 23% of people know that!

Im more inclined to believe the lower figure. As Im involved in handheld retail, We sell about 50/50 PPC and PalmOS devices.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
JimBob @ 6/18/2002 9:47:42 PM #
> PPC2002 OS doesn't take full advantage of XScale, but it does support the
> faster processors.

Not really. PPC2002 has to take full advantage of XScale in order for it to run at 400 MHz. Otherwise it runs at about 200 MHz.

Read this:
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3676

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 10:05:57 PM #
"As Im involved in handheld retail, We sell about 50/50 PPC and PalmOS devices."

According to NPDTechworld, the Palm OS now has 87.2% of the U.S. retail market, growing 10 percentage points in the last two months.

www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3459

I know you said you don't believe this but some things aren't opinions, they're facts.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 3:09:01 AM #
Simply means SONY will now dominate the high-end Palm market since they can actually get the OS to DO things now. They don't need extra chips for multimedia.

PPC won't go anywhere -- they've still got a better file system and a more open architecture. Palm folk tend to become rather over optimistic with Palm and always spin the PPC side in the worst light. That usually translates into dissapointment and whining when the 'PPC killer' turns out to be vaporware.

Look to SONY to do anything with XScale and the multimedia possibilities. Palm will simply rehash the m515 with a 320 x 320 screen -- i.e. T-615.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 3:11:34 AM #
And the simple fact is (that is constantly ignored by Palm zealots) is that their world wide marketshare is drastically lower than the US retail figures (around 50% now) AND FALLING. That's why you keep running back to the US retail figures everytime marketshare is mentioned. It makes all that sand around your head feel nicer...
RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 4:17:47 PM #
well this is an American based forum. It won't bother me if the only spreadsheet with 3D charts in Swedish is for PocketPC because I can get one in English for Palm (tiny sheet).
RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 5:21:22 PM #
>"And the simple fact is (that is constantly ignored by Palm zealots) is that their world wide marketshare is drastically lower than the US retail figures (around 50% now) AND FALLING. That's why you keep running back to the US retail figures everytime marketshare is mentioned. It makes all that sand around your head feel nicer..."<

Now clear the sand from around your head and realize that the competition, worldwide, is NOT from PPC. Symbian is one of the major players outside of the US, and Palm's biggest foreign concern.

RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/20/2002 12:01:17 AM #
yeah and I'm beginning to see commercials for the Nokia communicator here as well. maybe symbian will make a comeback in the US after all.
RE: That pounding sound you hear
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/20/2002 8:07:32 AM #
It would be kind of funny for Palm to run ads like M$ did. This time they would say "Can your ipaq do that?" Maybe they could just show somebody being productive with the Palm while some PPC guy is getting frustrated trying to figure out his "maybe minimize" function. The possibilities are endless. Palm OS can now defeat PPC. Period.

Bad for now...

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:12:56 AM #
Great, this will confuse people even more. They won't to buy an ARM Palm, since X-Scale Palms are coming out.
RE: Bad for now...
james_sorenson @ 6/18/2002 11:48:59 AM #
Riiight...but don't get those X-Scale Palms, because they'll have something even BETTER the year after that! Oh..wait...looky what they are making the following year! I better keep my Palm IIIe until Palm finally releases a new device without talking about future devices.

Give me a break. Hoards of people will buy the first PalmOS 5 devices when they come out this fall, and you should know that. I'll upgrade to X-Scale if it is a substantial improvement over the ARM.

-------
James Sorenson

RE: Bad for now...
Token User @ 6/18/2002 12:28:21 PM #
Hmmm ... aren't XScale CPU's based on an ARM design licensed from ARM?

XScale is ARM
Ed @ 6/18/2002 12:29:16 PM #
It seems I've made an assumption that has led both of you astray. I thought people knew that Intel's XScale processors are ARM compliant. You see, ARM Holdings doesn't make chips, it just designs them. It then licences these designs to manufacturers, like Intel, TI, Motorola, etc.

If I forget to mention this in the future, please remember that Palm OS 5 runs on ARM compliant processors. If you heard about a OS 5 being run on a processor, it has to be ARM compliant.

---
News Editor

RE: Bad for now...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 12:35:25 PM #
>>Hmmm ... aren't XScale CPU's based on an ARM design licensed from ARM?


Yep - everybody is confused on this point. most people think that OS 5 is designed for StrongARM - its not. StrongARM is just one particular ARM design of processor (manufactured by Intel and running at 206 mhz). According to Palm, OS 5 runs on ARM 4t architechure - which already includes chips running between 18mhz and 1ghz. check out page 8 of this palm pdf:
http://210.153.100.248/slides-2002/100.pdf

RE: Bad for now...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 12:47:00 PM #
Saying this is the same of saying "I won't by a Pentium 2G because 6 months from now there'll be a Pentium 3G."


architecture vs. implementation
hotpaw4 @ 6/18/2002 3:12:07 PM #
>Hmmm ... aren't XScale CPU's based on an ARM design licensed from ARM?

Intel licenses the *architecture* from ARM (the instruction set and what it's supposed to do), as does Motorola and maybe a few others. ARM also did several CPU core designs, some of which are licensed by TI and Motorola (and many many others). There are many different ways of executing the same instruction set (think PPro, P3, P4, Athlon, Transmeta, etc. for the ia32 ISA). The actual design (pipeline depth, cache layout, etc.) of an XScale is very different from that of an ARM Inc. designed core.

performance
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 5:55:42 PM #
any idea how these xscale cpus compare in terms of performance with the strongarm? it sounds like a different microarchitecture, so i'm guessing a 200mhz xscale wont be equivalent to a 200mhz strongarm...


RE: Bad for now...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/20/2002 12:23:08 AM #
Intel is late as well as Palm. But the time Palm 5 OS in Xscale is release next year, Sony has already second Palm OS 5.0 in MX2 chip (Motorola chip), much faster than current MX1, XScale and TI chips. I guess Sony will be releasing a new MX1 chip Palm OS 5.0 device same time when TI chip in Palm this fall. It is not bad for now, Get a device that is useful for your needs. Remember, every 3 months there is a better Palm OS devices in the market.

2003??

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 12:56:15 PM #
Ok, so the licensees have OS5 in their possession now, correct? Why is it going to take them 6 months to turn out a OS5 unit?

This is taking way too long in my opinion.

RE: 2003??
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 1:05:56 PM #
Palm is going to realese OS 5 handhelds this summer, what will be available in 2003 is OS 5 handhelds using Xsacale processors.
RE: 2003??
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 1:47:17 PM #
Which the article clearly says. I get so tired of hearing from people who don't read anything but the headline.

"Palm's XScale powered handhelds will be available early next year, which means they won't be the company's first devices to run Palm OS 5."

"Palm's CEO said last week that his company will release an OS 5 smartphone this fall which will use TI chips."

RE: 2003??
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:39:32 PM #
Because XScale does not perform well with existing
ARM compilers. Intel has made changes to the arch.
In fact its been mentioned before that StrongARM based PocketPCs outperform the XScale using existing tools.
RE: 2003??
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 9:25:16 AM #
The OS 5 handhelds will have no software to take advantage of the RM proccesor.
RE: 2003??
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 10:01:48 AM #
That's not correct. The OS itself runs native ARM code so all the APIs run at full ARM speed. They can take full advantage of X-scale.

www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3676&MODE=FLAT

Sony First Most Likely

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 2:53:12 PM #
Sony will probably come out first with the OS5 device. These guys are amazing at the creativity they put in their PDA's.

My Handspring Edge will go to my wife when the OS5 devices start coming out. Maybe next year I'll upgrade.

RE: Sony First Most Likely
abosco @ 6/18/2002 4:44:30 PM #
Dear idiot:

Don't you think Palm would be the first to release a device a division of them created? What makes you think Palmsource didn't give Palm the OS before they shipped it out to other companies? Only time will tell but it is pretty obvious that Palm will be first out the gate.

-Bosco

RE: Sony First Most Likely
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 5:03:20 PM #
No, Sony is a much bigger Company, it should be able to start producing the handheld right away, since they had the prototype for a while now...
RE: Sony First Most Likely
Ed @ 6/18/2002 5:07:35 PM #
> What makes you think Palmsource didn't give Palm the OS before they
> shipped it out to other companies?

A while back I asked Mike Mace from PalmSource about this and he promised me it wouldn't happen. PalmSource is trying as hard as it can to be scrupulously fair to all the licensees. If any of them got word that Palm had been given such a large advantage there would be big trouble.

---
News Editor

RE: Sony First Most Likely
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 6:03:21 PM #
im sure palm will be first to produce a OS 5 handheld....sony will most likely be last.
Sony, again, and again, and a discontinue or two
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 3:12:15 AM #
Come on, don't you see the pattern YET? Sure, Sony might do it first, but only after they stop production of NR70v's, then 3 months later they discontinue those and continue the pattern. DUH! Targus has to be on their toes to get out a full keyboard this time. By 2005, Sony'll be cranking out new ones each week. They won't make a profit (off of handhelds, lord knows what else brings in the huge pile of cash for them ;-]), but R&D guys will be well-paid.
RE: Sony First Most Likely
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 10:16:46 AM #
"They won't make a profit (off of handhelds, lord knows what else brings in the huge pile of cash for them ;-]), but R&D guys will be well-paid."

Maybe it's only palm Inc. that leads you in thinking that Palm really cost 400 dollars and really worth 400 dollars, but the truth is they are over charging for the longest while. So maybe Sony is making less profit than Palm inc. on Palm Devices, but I love the way they do it, at least they are bring something new to the palm platform every year.

RE: Sony First Most Likely
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 5:19:04 PM #
maybe it's because Sony is more interested in pushing the dragonball hardware to the max while Palm is focusing on OS 5 hardware which should be much more interesting.
RE: Sony First Most Likely
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/20/2002 12:40:41 AM #
Sony will be releasing a new Palm OS 5.0 device based on MX1 from Motorola same time this fall for sure. Palm needs a lot of press releases to survive. Sony is stable company so no noise just action. I hope Sony will be more active in releasing their devices simultaneously outside USA.

TI vs. Intel

abosco @ 6/18/2002 4:48:01 PM #
Intel is bringing their chips to Palm at the beginning of next year. TI has already brought their chips to Palm and are in the process of creating a device that will be shipped at the end of the summer. Is there any proof as of today that Intel's X-Scale will be any better than TI's omap even though the X-Scale will be out much later?

-Bosco
RE: TI vs. Intel
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 5:04:43 PM #
The MHZ are higher.... double, no matter what Intel's would be better!
RE: TI vs. Intel
Token User @ 6/18/2002 7:25:46 PM #
TI vs Intel will be like debating the merits of AMD vs Intel.

Both have a position in the marketplace and still manage to differentiate their products. Provided that PalmOS will run on either chipset (as promised) then we as consumers might actually be winners here.

I can see a company producing a line of Palm devices with both chips - the TI omap chips for the cellphone/wireless device market, the Intel for the high end MHz junkies, and perhaps Motorola for the general consumer levels devices (the sort we recommend to family and friends).

RE: TI vs. Intel
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 8:51:18 PM #
how in the world can you possibly be excited about Palm releasing an xscale os 5 system a year away ? This is something Palm should have had out a month ago. Sorry Palm.. a dollar short and a day late.
RE: TI vs. Intel
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:44:51 PM #
OMap/Strongarm/samsung/etc will outperform XScale at this time because XScale doesn't optimize well with ARM compilers.


RE: TI vs. Intel
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 11:57:48 PM #
I'm excited because it means Palm isn't tied to Motorola or TI for ARM cpus. And they aren't tied to Intel either. Anyone can make an arm cpu that kicks the others and Palm could run on it

Too Little, Too Late

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/18/2002 9:41:52 PM #
When will Palm finally do something innovative?

<end satire>

Sorry, but I really missed seeing this hackneyed post on a discussion related to a new Palm development. I suppose it's the twisted part of me taking over.

RE: Too Little, Too Late
Foo Fighter @ 6/19/2002 11:38:49 AM #
Exactly how is this "too little, too late" if we haven't yet seen the new OS and hardware? At least wait for new products to hit the market before you condemn them to death. :-/

RE: Too Little, Too Late
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 3:18:42 PM #
Bursting Out Laughing!!!! IT WAS A JOKE! LOL

Which CPU is power saver?

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/19/2002 8:37:03 PM #
So many CPU, so confusing.

Could anyone tell me, under the same speed, say 200MHz or 100Mhz, which CPU use less power?

And I just got my 505 tweaked!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/20/2002 8:16:11 AM #
All this right when I've finally gotten EVERY bug worked out and have gotten 110MB of stuff to play nicely @ 54MHz w/ zero wait states. I really have just started to enjoy this wonderful feeling of not having to wait for pidirect to enable at least once a day. HOWEVER, I will take 1 x-scale today, please.
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