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Comments on: PalmGear De-emphasizes Freeware (Updated)

Update: Kenny West has confirmed that PalmGear's new policy of de-emphasizing freeware has been reversed. Freeware is once again being listed on PalmGear's home page and on search results. The original article appears below only for discussion purposes.
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whatever

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:06:13 AM #
whatever....

Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:03:20 AM #
I do think this is a stupid decision to both palmgear and the software buyer. I bought the softwares in palmgear before and thought palmgear is a good, reliable and responsible online seller. But now (and in the future) I would NOT buy any software from palmgear anymore.
I don't think palmgear can boost the sales of the shareware by avoid posting freeware on the web. But I am sure the visiting count of palmgear would drop dramtically. Palmgear will finally lost it's market value.
RE: Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:40:09 PM #
I would always go to PalmGear because it was easiest to find the best software there. If the best product for my need wasn't free, I paid for it. West and the developers are both behaving very short-sightedly if they think that this will help business because I believe it is really going to hurt traffic coming to the site in the first place.
RE: Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 4:15:05 AM #
This is unbelieveable. I had been using PalmGear exclusively until I heard developers weren't being paid. I registered Monopoly a couple of weeks ago on Handago for that reason. Now this? Kenny, do me a favor and stop acting like you're a Palm advocate. I'd want to keep freeware "hidden" too if my product isn't as good! As Roberto Duran said to Sugar Ray Leonard: "No Mas!"
RE: Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 5:35:52 AM #
Well that's it. No more purchases for me from Palmgear.
Reply from Kenny West; PalmGear.com
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:28:46 PM #
As none of the psots here inlcude the true and accurate info here is a reply I sent to soem who emailed me directly....

I think there is some misunderstanding as we DO allow BOTH Free and non free software at our site. The only difference that is being implemented is that free software is not going to be listed on the home page with New or Updated software. No software (free or otherwise) has been removed. Search results still show free software with the only difference being they are now listed at the end of the results pages. Additionally the Advanced Software Search which can be accessed via this link:

http://wwws.palmgear.com/software/asksoftware.cfm

or on the initial page of search results page after entering search criteria in the search criteria entry field at the upper left has the option that has always been there that allows locating Free software via the drop down choice list "Application or Document". Additionally I would like to point out that our only commercial competitor has not only not listed freeware for quite some time they do not list it whatsoever.

In any event we are open to suggestions and want to do what we can to make the site as useful as is possible while maximizing revenues for the software developers whose software is listed.


Regards,

Kenny West
PalmGear.com
http://www.palmgear.com
"The One Stop Source for your Palm Connected Organizer!"

RE: Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 6:33:02 PM #
I understand that the freeware is not being removed. But if you make it much harder to find, you make my experiences searching for palmware solutions all the more difficult. As a result, I will be less inclined to look for palmware on your site. Somewhere down this page there is an excellent analogy to the supermarket. If you take out all the low-profit items like bread, milk and eggs, people aren't going to come in and blow mooney on high-profit items in the deli. That is the shortsightedness I see here.
RE: Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 8:41:06 PM #
Count me out Kenny. Like others, when I first got my Palm, Palmgear was my "homepage" and the first stop for all my Palm news and software. Looking back I probably spent close to $250/= buying software from Palmgear throughout the years. Not anymore.

If Palmgear is on the edge of dying it sure didn't help by being stupid. You nailed the last nail into your own coffin, Kenny.

RE: Hey Kenny West, what a stupid decision
Strider_mt2k @ 8/5/2002 6:13:33 AM #
I agree with the original comment. I even e-mailed them a good comment for their service. I don't like hearing about developers getting the short end of either stick.
I fully recognize PG reversed the decision, but I don't think I'll be getting any more apps from them, freeware or no.


strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

Oy.

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:10:01 AM #
"by emphasizing commercial software and decreasing the expose freeware gets", he will destroy the usefulness of the site and drive away users.

Also, " This was not a PalmGear decision but the result of a vote: PalmGear asked the developers for whom it acts as a reseller in June if they wanted free products to be removed from those pages or not, and the results show that among the 593 replies, 66% voted in favor of freeware "removal". "

Rephrase with me: "Other developers are writing free software that does the same thing as your paid software. Should we hide it?" Of course they said yes.

PalmGear still doesn't have a "hires" indicator either.

Ridiculous
BUDD @ 8/3/2002 10:55:04 AM #
Listen, I have spent the hours it takes to write palm software. That I've done it all for free does not mean that someone should snub those that do charge. And if my busy life ever let me write another peice of code I would absolutely charge for it. What's the matter, you can't afford $7.00? Ridiculous. We are not talking MicroSoft price tags of $90 for their cheapest box of bloated software (or $400 for something like Office).

Let's remember, palm guys, that even Yahoo has started charging for services (again, you can't afford $29 for full-featured email with 50meg of storage?). The economy is bad and all tech sectors are taking it on the chin. In case you haven't noticed.

RE: Oy.
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:07:43 AM #
Budd,

I think you are missing the point. I used to go to Palmgear everyday, because it was the one place where I could go to find out information about every piece of software available for the Palm (free, or shareware). Occasionally, I would for to the freewarepalm or Handango sites just to see if Palmgear had missed anything. Now, I'll probably start going to Handango and/or Palmspot to see if they carry a complete list.

In the long run, this is going to drive people away, because the value of Palmgear was not specificly that they had freeware or shareware. The value was that they had everything easily accessiible. And now they don't.

What do you want to bet that when they see how much their site traffic goes down, they go back to the old method?

Michael

This is anticompetitive
Wollombi @ 8/3/2002 11:47:02 AM #
If someone writes a piece of code, but doesn't charge for it, should the produce really be prevented from competing with a retail product that may or may not do the job as effectively? I don't think so. If there is a good piece of shareware out there that does a better job than what is available for free (often the case), I am happy to pay for it. However, I'm not in the habit of throwing away money on an inferior piece of software if something that better suits my needs in available for free (also often the case). A good example of this is the freeware program Today vs. TealPoint's TealGlance. I'll take Today anytime over TealGlance, because it suits my needs and desires much better.

By doing this PalmGear is going to lose the already shaky credibility that thay have with customers, because they are unneccesarily limiting the options of their customers. Are they removing freeware? No, but they are making it much harder to find on their site. I for one am not impressed.

_________________
Sean

It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

Yes, "Removing"
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 5:07:31 PM #
Uh Wollombi, pardon the correction, but YES they ARE REMOVING it (for practical purposes):
People don't look through PalmGear alphabetically ... They look at the New & Updated sections--the very spot that PalmGear is refusing to display it.
RE: Ridiculous
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 6:50:13 PM #
I think this is Ridiculous. Just because the tech market is in a slump doesn't eman I am going to fork over my money to anyone. i think it was Steve Jobbs who sais the free ride is over? Well to heck with him and PalmGear. Freeware is there and Iw ill keep looking for it. Some of the developers who want to charge 7.00 bucks for a dumb application needs to wake up. Stop trying to hit the lottery with a crappy program and look what is being offered for free and be creative and come up with something better is my thought.

I have written programs in the past and have and will continue to give many of them away for free. Why, it's simple, it builds my reputation as a programmer. If it's good software , people will download it. Than if I am creative I will eventually release an updated and more powerful version for a fee. Stop complaining about the Tech market and do your share and write something better, or people will go with the free stuff.

Just cause you can hide it doesn't mean it isn't there and it wont be found.. gosh.. just look at the warez community.

RE: Oy.
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 7:25:04 PM #
The point made by Michael rings truest with me: you went there because they had everything easily accessible, and now they won't. I never went to PalmGear looking specifically for freeware; I ran across it when I was looking at new or updated Palm software. I'd never even been to freewarepalm.com until a few minutes ago - didn't even know it was there!! But now I've bookmarked it and will be taking time previously spent at PalmGear looking over freewarepalm... and Handango and any other site that has software for my Clie. Boneheads!

Database programmers?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:18:30 AM #
It appears that the listings (especially the "last 7 days" type listings) are done by a query. Is there anyone out there who could create a link that queries their database and make it work the way it used to?
RE: Database programmers?
Boone @ 8/3/2002 10:31:54 AM #
Go to their last 25 software submissions and replace listType=new in the address bar with listType=free.

HTH...Boone

It's a shame

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:28:56 AM #
While I can understand the financial reasoning behind this (and it's just financial...I don't care what anyone says), it's such a shame that this has to happen.

PalmGear has long been my first stop looking for software. This announcement doesn't surprise me, however. Just this past Thursday (two days before this "announcement" and "change"), I tried searching for some freeware packages, yet the search engine didn't locate them.

I found them right away at another site, however.

All that's left to say at this point is "goodbye" to PalmGear, I suppose.

RE: It's a shame
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:45:37 PM #
So where is the best place to search for software now? I can't find anything on Handango and don't like them anyway.
RE: It's a shame
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 9:15:47 PM #
There's CNet or ZDNet... wait, CNet bought ZDNet...
RE: It's a shame
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 1:01:24 AM #
Yah, Handango is the Worst! Every day in the last 2 or 3 months they've let "Datebook on Clock" and "DataKeeper" be posted as updated. I want to know what's new, not what's being posted everyday for exposure. Handango is even encouraging it to get it to look like more developers are posting new and updated stuff to their site. People have complained, but Handango has removed their remarks. At least Gear had rules against such shinanigans.

Handango doesn't even post new or updated products in a timely manner. There are times when I know when a product was updated on Handango, and it took hours for it to show up as so. And by that time, the product wasn't even listed on the front page anymore.

Let's keep in mind that not all the develoers voted to have freeware removed. I think it was to their advantage to have a lot of people coming to the gear site in search of "Whatever", and not just commercial/shareware products.

RE: It's a shame
kezza @ 8/5/2002 1:07:27 PM #
A couple good sites for software that generally get overlooked are www.palmtracker.com and www.palmvenue.com. These both list freeware/shareware/commercial software, and have a decent selection. PalmVenue is especially nice because a lot of stuff that doesn't get posted anywhere else gets posted there, because they don't charge developers to submit software. Palmtracker generally has a lot of the same stuff as palmgear, only with a smaller selection. it's got the easiest interface for finding recently released/updated software, though.

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

The last flailings of a desperate man

sandbuck @ 8/3/2002 10:27:00 AM #
Freeware authors become Shareware and Commercial authors. This a very efficient way to breed resentment among your base. (Though not as efficient as stealing people's money..)

Its been a great ride Mr. West, I'm going to miss you.



RE: The last flailings of a desperate man
BUDD @ 8/3/2002 11:01:18 AM #
You mean those that write the code you take for granted (the HOURS it takes to do that--write the code (I suspect it only takes the majority of those complaining in this thread seconds to take the work for granted)actually OWE it to you to write freeware? Well, now that we understand eachother...

RE: The last flailings of a desperate man
rldunn @ 8/3/2002 11:34:11 AM #
Budd, you're really missing the point on these posts today. I suggest you get some sleep, then come back and reread them. This post in no way implied that developers owe it to the users to write freeware. The point of the post is the developers often start out writing freeware, then move on to develop shareware products, and if Palmgear pisses these people off now when they're just starting, then they may not consider Palmgear later when they actually have a commercial product for sale.

RE: The last flailings of a desperate man
Wollombi @ 8/3/2002 11:54:30 AM #
>"You mean those that write the code you take for granted (the HOURS it takes to do that--write the code (I suspect it only takes the majority of those complaining in this thread seconds to take the work for granted)actually OWE it to you to write freeware? Well, now that we understand eachother..."<

Not only are you missing the point, which is that PalmGear is attempting to change market factors out of it's control, but this post makes absolutely no sense in the context of the post you are supposedly rebutting. I suggest you stop blindly criticizing and take a look at the reality.

It is indeed true that freeware authors often become shareware authors. By discriminating against those who write today's free applications, PalmGear (who also doesn't seem to pay their developers), is chasing away future clientelle.

Additionally, if a retail product can't compete with a free equivalent, that doesn't mean PalmGear should try to shove the inferior product in your face. Nobody is saying that we are owed free products, and nobody is saying these authors shouldn't be paid. Quite the contrary, we are saying they had better make a competitive (i.e. better that what's available for free) product if they desire to make money. That's capitalism, my friend, and nobody owes these developers anything, so please stop acting like we do.

Any questions?

_________________
Sean

It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

RE: The last flailings of a desperate man
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 1:30:26 PM #
" You mean those that write the code you take for granted (the HOURS it takes to do that--write the code (I suspect it only takes the majority of those complaining in this thread seconds to take the work for granted)actually OWE it to you to write freeware? Well, now that we understand eachother..."

I hope BUDD does not code the same way he writes. ;)

RE: The last flailings of a desperate man
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 5:40:59 AM #
yeah, he'd get several syntax errors at compile time and spend his HOURS searching for them.. lol
RE: The last flailings of a desperate man
Wollombi @ 8/7/2002 12:59:23 AM #
Well, I see his isn't bothering to replys to these posting. Maybe he's getting a spellchecker installed....

_________________
Sean

It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

The beginning of the end for PalmGear

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:56:11 AM #
Guys, what do you think draws PDA users to PalmGear, anyway? It's a supermarket. Sometimes you go to get eggs and milk and sometimes you go to buy magazines and toothbrushes.

Do you really think that supermarkets make a profit on a $1.50 dozen eggs that need to be refrigerated and are perishable? Of course not. People go to get eggs and end up buying other stuff that is high margin.

I have developed a ton of freeware that has been distributed via PalmGear and have no apologies. Software like mine built the name and web traffic that PalmGear is trying so hard to exploit right now.

So, they are going to de-emphasize freeware. You know, sites that feature commercialware are a dime a dozen. They are all over the place. The difference was that people went to PalmGear to find something interesting and most of that is freeware. Now, all they will find is whatever is for sale. Why bother.

PalmGear is over
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:29:32 AM #
This is straw that breaks the camel's back.

The whole attraction of PalmGear was that everything was centralized in one place and you could easily keep up to date on the Palm software market.

This is the beginning of the end and it's time for developers to start their own grassroots distribution site. Palm old-timers remember the dozens of Palm software sites over the years that have come and gone and once upon a time, PalmGear was a newcomer too. The community will survive its passing, and it may well be time for a class-action law suit to recoup unpaid developer fees and hasten the end of PalmGear.

RE: The beginning of the end for PalmGear
rldunn @ 8/3/2002 11:37:31 AM #
This was a well-put post, but I'm not sure this is the beginning of the end. I think the beginning was the new policy from a couple of months ago that they would pay off current debts first and old debts when they got extra cash. I had hoped that we the users wouldn't see much impact of that, but there have been a lot fewer software titles posted since then; it seems like it's about half of what is was before or even less. And some big titles like DateBk5 have switched their primary selling site to be Handango.

This is really sad as I love the Palmgear interface and can't stand using Handango. It takes so much longer to find new and updated software at Handango. But if they're the only ones getting new software listings, then we may not have a choice. I hope Palmgear can hang on, but this is another step in the wrong direction.

RE: The beginning of the end for PalmGear
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 10:48:10 PM #
A whole paragraph and you still said nothing. What about all the people that West owes money to.

That's why we have WAREZ!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:10:31 AM #
Screw Palm, screw the developers. Price it right or we'll crack it and give it away :)
RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:15:19 AM #
I think the majority here would prefer not getting software at all than steal it if they felt the price was to high.
RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
stormrider @ 8/3/2002 11:36:27 AM #
I would not be getting warez, except in cases where i feel the developer has been "robbing in broad daylight". Just like handmark's games.. hehe :)

I pay for quality software like Wordsmith.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:01:53 PM #
Let me get this straight - if you think something is overpriced you'll just steal it (or modify it and give it away to someone else for free)? It's thieves like you that increase the cost and complexity of software.

Just because you can crack a program doesn't mean that you should. There's something called ethics.

You don't like the cost of software? Don't buy it! Or, create something on your own to compete with the existing product at a lower cost. Cracking someone else's software and redistributing it - whether or not it's overpriced - is in direct violation of virtually all software licenses, and you deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
TDS Computer @ 8/3/2002 1:41:19 PM #
//BEGIN SARCASM

Gosh, Mr. I.M.,
I need a new car, but they are a little expensive. Could you please steal one for me? And my wife wants a new diamond ring. Could you knock off a jewelry store for me?
Oh, it's different if you have to get up from your computer to commit a crime, eh?

//END SARCASM

Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
UZI4U182 @ 8/3/2002 3:01:18 PM #
I agree with StormRider

--Devan--
RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 5:39:20 PM #
UZI4U182 and ShadowRider, Warez are illegal and immoral. If you think a companies prices are way to high compared to their software's quality, don't buy it, or get a competing product. And then of course, if you really want it, pay the high price.

Commercial software developers are there to make money. If they charge it to high and their software is selling badly, the price will be lowered, but by getting warez, you are stealing. Its no different than walking into Walmart, slipping a DVD under your shirt, and walking out, other than the fact it's easier.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 5:43:47 PM #
"UZI4U182 and ShadowRider"

Whoops. UZI4U182 and StormRider.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 7:47:01 PM #
TDS: Stealing a car and stealing software is very different. Cars cost the companies money to produce a copy of it. Copies of software don't cost anything to produce (past the already completed development time.) If you're not going to buy it, and you pirate it, sure you may be unethical, but you're not costing anyone any money. If you DO have the money to buy the software, however, I say buy it
RE: That's why we have LOSERS.
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 7:54:28 PM #
> UZI4U182 and ShadowRider, Warez are illegal and immoral.

Thanks for trying to impose your morality on the rest of the universe. Let's see if it holds up:

Please sort these in order, most moral, to least.

- Priests who take money from the old and poor who 'Need salvation' to buy nice big cars and build expensive churches.
- People who sell drugs to other consenting adults because it's a lucrative business.
- People who sample the candy in the grocery store.
- Police who support a war on drugs because it gets them more tax money for their departments and more salary for themselves. Oh, and let's not forget 'Siezed assets'.
- Someone who woulden't have paid for a piece of software investing dozens of man-hours looking for it in the warez community.
- Large chain stores using their collective mussle to temporarily push their prices below profit level so that they can raise prices after they've driven local business under.
- A small child who stole a piece of candy.
- the RIAA/MPAA.

Thanks for sorting this out for me. I'm so glad your 'morality' works in such a cut-and-dried manner.

Make sure you go out and yell at everybody who falls on the 'worse' side of the warez dooood when you're done.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 8:40:58 PM #
That entire post was irrelevant. Just because there are worse things than downloading Warez doesn't mean it's not stealing and not immoral.

Anyway, you seem to consent stealing software. Tell me, would you feel right leaving a store with a DVD under your coat?

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

RE: That's why we have IDIOTS
Quik_Fix @ 8/3/2002 9:44:55 PM #
To the IM Anonymous that is complaining about morals:

I'm pretty sick tonight, and I'm usually not bothered by this stuff. This will be the first time I've ever insulted someone on this site. I've never seen a need to go hard to bat on anything, but you apprently need someone to fill you in.


You're an idiot.

Only an idiot would think that the government could make money on the "War on Drugs." Do you really think the three 8-balls they confiscate will pay the 40k salaries of the 15 guys who raided the dope house and the border patrols that run day and night?
"Priests who take money from the old and poor who 'Need salvation' to buy nice big cars and build expensive churches."
Who.... Where? What the hell are you talking about? Which priest? What town? You have no idea, do you?

"Oh, and let's not forget 'Siezed assets'"

Idiot.


You're a thief.

Only an idiot thief would justify their actions by trying to point the finger at other people doing creepy stuff.
"Someone who wouldn't have paid for a piece of software investing dozens of man-hours looking for it in the warez community."
Community? Is that supposed to make you sound wholesome? Who cares how much time you spent finding what you stole?

You're ignorant.

When you make a copy of the software someone worked hard to make, you didn't buy it. So you DID cost them money; they'd have money if you weren't a thief.

You're a kid.

You write and think like a kid. You're examples of corruption are the worst kind of popular tripe. You've spent no time at all researching any of the examples you've given and you have no idea what you're talking about.


Stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing, how much it costs, how big the company is, whether you need it, or whether you've justified it in your head. If it costs money, and you don't pay, than your a crook. At least admit to it and don't rag someone else about imposing morals; you don't even know what a moral standard is....

-------
This ranting brought to you by a 102-degree fever and the flu. If I seem overly irritated, it's only because I am. I hope I haven't offended anyone.... except the idiot I.M.
Get a screen name.
Idiot.

...In accordance with the prophecy...

Quik_Fix
quikfix@hotmail.com

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 9:52:22 PM #
I started a thread/poll about this at www.pdaavenue.com, it is located here: www.pdaavenue.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=680;start=2

I included this thread in the first post. Go ahead and discuss or vote about it there, although I warn you won't be able to hide behind I.M. Anonymous...

I hope you don't mind this link Ed, but the purpose is not advertising, I just find PDA Warez discussion interesting.

______________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 10:14:33 PM #
Well said Quik_Fix

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:27:15 PM #
Please rethink about cracking software. If you have time, please write your own software and release them as freeware.

As a developer, we need to paid software engineers, customer service representatives, graphic designers. We let customers to get free trial and they can paid us if they think it is worth. If they think it is not worth, then they can remove it without pay for it.

However, we did not make a lot of money for it and it is not easy to get a product success. We believe if we put more effort on improving our products, we will success (get break even).

We are very disappointed with WAREZ and people behind them. Someday, WAREZ will drive us out of market and only large firm like M$ can surive.

If you think a product is not worth for dollars, please write your own version and release them as free software and drive us out of business by market, but not thiefing. We prefer to leave the market by product competition but not thiefing of WAREZ!!

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:43:26 PM #
Please do not think that software can make big money. About 25-40% of a product goes to pocket of web site's owner and it does not include advertising cost.

We used to try to selling software with just $1 (we can only 60 cents) but the response is disappointed and we finally increase the price back to 9.95.

In order to avoid cracking, we spend our engineers' time on anti-cracking design. It also increase our cost.

Some of my friend never pay a dollar to software because software does not cost a dollar for copying. However, it is a misunderstand. We DO pay a lot of money on development.

For people advocate WAREZ, please, try to develop a real product and see how much effort and money you need to pay for a product development.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 1:38:25 AM #
I spent about $200 on palm os software before I realised that I was just paying for the privilege of being a beta tester. I still purchase software which is useful and (relatively) bug free. But I use any available Warez version first, just to make sure.

Those developers who think this is immoral or illegal should think very carefully about consumer protection laws, which you break every day with your buggy software.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 5:09:02 AM #
Most softwares provides full function trail version and consumers have opportunities to check the softwares. It is not a good reason to crack others product. I believe it is unfair to say "I steal you program because it is not good."
RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 5:28:15 AM #
Don't just blame software developer. S?ny NR series has bug for MS. Does someone think that you have right to steal one from BestBuy.
RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
Stardust @ 8/4/2002 7:25:39 AM #
Or course cracking or using cracked software is unethical. No amount of sophistic or mealymouthed reasoning will debunk that. On the other hand, it's very easy to moralize on the issue and lose sight of certain realities.

Consider the scores of Asians who would have been left out of the IT revolution were it not for pirated software. I am not talking of businessmen in pinstriped suits but students and ordinary office workers who can buy cheap PCs made in China but for whom a registered Windows OS is out or reach. Sure, $25 for a good Palm software seems like a reasonable price compared with $299 for Windows XP. But that's a princely sum for those in the Third World who earn only $300 a month or less.

We cannot condone software piracy but we can at least try to understand why it's happening in the first place. Perhaps by doing so, those who develop and market Palmware can find ways to bring down their prices - such as selling directly to customers instead of using agents/re-sellers like Palmgear and Handango.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 7:49:46 AM #
Warez is not a good idea, but Iíve using it since I have computers with two purposes:

LEARN, I cannot afford to buy at home all of the M$ rubbish (W2KAdvServer/SQL/EXCHANGE) just for learn and then throw it away, the same for AutoCAD, Photo**** and a large list.

EVALUATION, If the program is not available in any evaluation incarnation I prefer to get it warez, test it and then consider if buy or not.

I don't consider any of those subjects immoral or illegal, some pieces of software are extremely expensive.

But what I never do is to use a warez for my daily work, this is like making money with stolen equipment and thus unacceptable, and for Christís sake most of the palm apps have a ridiculous price.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 8:37:11 AM #
>Most softwares provides full function trail version >and consumers have opportunities to check the >softwares. It is not a good reason to crack others >product. I believe it is unfair to say "I steal you >program because it is not good."

But how many times have you tried shareware for say 3 weeks, but another version comes out with only 1 week left on the trial period? So then you are faced with a choice: shell out $$ hoping that the changes to the new version have not created new bugs, or just delete the thing and look for something else.

How many times do you see version after version of software released within a few, in each case dealing with bugs which should have been ironed out before the public release of the first version? Too many times. I can list some examples if you wish.

Don't even just me started on crippleware ...

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 11:37:52 AM #
From your view point, those programs should be very bad and they are useless. Such programs should be useless for you and you won't pay a cent for it.

Why don't you just remove those software from your PC and Palm?

It is shame to say others' product is bad and then install a private copy in your computer or palm, and tell everyone that the program is useless and you have right to crack it.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 12:02:46 PM #
I believe those people (developer) are wasting their time to argue about warez here. I know many people(includes my friends) don't even pay a cent for software. They always have tons of excuses to justify what they do, such as bugs, expensive, and so on.

The truth is that they do not want to pay for software. They would pay hundreds to buy new Sony NR70 even they have another Palm device which they just bought months ago, but they do not want to pay for "Document T? G?" even they feel it is useful.

Even a program is bug free and cheap, they still complain the program is not good enough while they are running it everyday.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
marcusbankuti @ 8/4/2002 12:18:28 PM #
"I don't consider any of those subjects immoral or illegal, some pieces of software are extremely expensive."

While I condone it, it's up to you to decide what is moral.

It is however, not up to you to decide if something is legal or not.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

Where is the ''overpriced'' software?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 1:31:29 PM #
The people who want to rationalize stealing will claim that software is "overpriced." They want to label the companies as "bad" or "greedy" so they can pirate with less guilt.

There is little market evidence that software is overpriced. Hardware makers, Software makers, resellers like PalmGear are all struggling to survive. The cost of development is expensive, and so the cost of administration to run a website to sell stuff. Companies like Intuit, Aladdin, Learning Company, Sega, can't even afford to participate in the handheld market because the market is too small and the profits are so meager.

All these companies big and small aren't making bad choices.

Stealing software will only drive more good developers out of the handheld market. The big companies will develop for other platforms and the small companies will disappear. All companies have to provide compromised services, because less money is available.

Who wouldn't want $80 dollar software for $10 dollars, but dream on... Most of the dotcom companies who give out more than they take in have gone out of business. Look at all the layoffs in this country and don't only blame the bad management. It is precisely the charlatans who create companies that give out more than they take. The slimebags out-compete the honest guys, because the honest guys can't compete with products priced below market value.

Reply to 'Quikfix'
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 10:12:22 PM #
> You're an idiot.
Maybe, maybe not.

> Only an idiot would think that the government could make money on the "War on Drugs."
The goverment dosen't. The individual police departments DO get larger budgets from it, though. Or do you think voters will support SWAT teams to catch shoplifters?


>> "Priests who take money
> Who.... Where? What the hell are you talking about? Which priest? What town? You have no idea, do you?
All of them - or are you too dense to spot that one, too? Or dosen't that suit fit on your straw-man?

> Only an idiot thief would justify their actions by trying to point the finger at other people doing creepy stuff.
I wasen't justifying anybody's actions, per se. I don't steal palm software, to be honest. Why bother? I get paid more hourly than the trouble is worth. Which was the point of the time comment. I don't xerox books for the same reason.

> You write and think like a kid. You're examples of corruption are the worst kind of popular tripe. You've spent no time at all researching any of the examples you've given and you have no idea what you're talking about.

And you do? I can't tell from your writing. The frequent sprinklings of name calling don't particularly support it, either.

> This ranting brought to you by a 102-degree fever and the flu.

Hope you feel better.

> Get a screen name.
> Idiot.

So, you file your taxes under the name 'QuikFix', then?

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 3:53:08 AM #
Frankly, I really don't care about developers. If a program is well thought out, fairly priced, bug free and well supported I will BUY it. Otherwise, like I said screw them. If a developer is only clearing $1.00 on the sale of software you are just STUPID and should go do something else. All that tells me is like music and film some ****head middleman (insert RIAA, etc. here) is making all the money while you do all the work.

And as for "morals", the people who talk about having them are usually the ones with the least idea of what morals actually are (insert priest, politicial, religous fanatics etc hear). I for one am sick and tired of taking it up the ass while companies that scam 2Billion, 4bilion etc dollars will end up with tax write-offs for next year. Overpriced, cableTV, CellPhone plans, ISP accounts its all bull**** being shoved up our collective consumer asses. We are being OVERWORKED, OVERTAXED and nothing more than fuel for the machine. So SCREW THEM ALL and yes I get free DTV, and Cable too.

RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 9:56:32 AM #
Amen Quik Fix. Well said.
RE: That's why we have WAREZ!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/6/2002 10:02:36 AM #
Agreed, WAREZ have been with us since the earliest days of computing and will NEVER go away. It wans't until Bill Gates and the MicroShaft decided to "license" software instead of selling software that we are where we are. Now everything is "licensed" Music, Movies, Games, Software I for one am not down with that. Sell it at a reasonable cost or I WILL PIRATE IT. Developers and musicians need to learn that the we are in a new world, distribute your stuff directly and lets get rid of these middlemen PIGS.

Setup a poll here?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:37:23 AM #
Could we setup a poll here to see how many of the palmusers would stop surfing (or even boycott) palmgear anymore?

1)I am the first one to stop surfing it, Ryan

RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:03:16 PM #
I second it.

www.handango.com

RE: Setup a poll here?
pontif @ 8/3/2002 12:17:28 PM #
I, for one, will not purchase anything from them until they reverse this decision. I feel very strongly about this.

By the way. I AM a palm software developer, and I have both "freeware" quickie utilities I've done, and commercial programs as well. PalmGear will not get any of my business as a seller or as a buyer as long as they have effectively banned freeware.

RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:27:01 PM #
Count me. I'll go elsewhere for my software.
RE: Setup a poll here?
atrizzah @ 8/3/2002 12:41:17 PM #
I'm more concerned about their payment policy. Why should I give them money if I don't even think the developer's going to get it? In any case, while PGHQ has such twisted policies, I'll never support them.

Peace Out
Alan
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:42:19 PM #
Everybody remove palmgear from your favorites and add handango.com
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:48:43 PM #
Hell with that. Handango's worse--can't find anything and their business ethics reak. Search for it first on freewarepalm and then if you don't like what you see, go to PalmGear.
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:55:33 PM #
Me too.
RE: Setup a poll here?
PDA Guy @ 8/3/2002 1:32:12 PM #
Can we set up an actual poll, instead of just posting "me too" in a comment thread? Ed?

Find software and buy of the developer!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 2:20:49 PM #
I too won't buy from Palmgear. Like it was said some weeks ago (about money PalmGear didn't pay as they should do developers): Find the software title, then go and buy it from the developer.

That way, they get most of your money out of it!
Oliver

RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 7:11:46 PM #
Don't surf nor buy.
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:34:35 PM #
I guess since noone will ever see "United We Stand" on PalmGear now, it doesn't make sense to leave it there. I guess I'll pull it and the rest of my apps. from PalmGear and stick with Handango. I made the app. free for all Americans to see and learn from. Apparently, at PalmGear it won't be seen nor heard.
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:27:17 PM #
Count me in - Joseph Hume
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 6:11:36 AM #
what's that sh** about americans?
RE: Setup a poll here?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 10:37:16 AM #
I more and more use www.pdatopsoft.com It has a lot of freebie programs that seem most important to me. http://www.pdatopsoft.com/software/bytype.php?licenset=F&


I de-emphasize PalmGear

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:33:57 AM #
From March 01 to now I bought 8 sharewares from PalmGear and there are some others that are scheduled to follow.
The decision to de-emphasize shareware in their site is theirs. The decision to spend my money wherever I want is mine.
I think this is a bad idea and I won't buy from PalmGear anymore.

Nelsonf

RE: I de-emphasize PalmGear
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 5:25:53 PM #
This is such bollox; ripping off the developers is okay by you, but now that its harder to find freeware you draw the line? Thats pretty soft ethics.
RE: I de-emphasize PalmGear
mashby @ 8/3/2002 9:53:32 PM #
I don't think they said that they would de-emphasize SHAREWARE, just FREEWARE. Most shareware now has a nags and 30 day time limts and are really more like demoware than anything else.

I don't think shareware is affected by this.

Bad decision

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:55:21 AM #
Most of the products that I purchased through PalmGear attracted my attention because I was browsing for both freeware and shareware. I can understand posting commercial products first (either in searches or on the home page), but completely eliminating the freeware listings from the home page is a bad decision.

My $0.02, for whatever it's worth.

RE: Bad decision
TDS Computer @ 8/3/2002 2:04:27 PM #
$0.02 opinions are considered "Freeware" opinions on this site, and this comment will be delegated to the bottom of the list. :)


Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com

RE: my $0.02
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:33:02 AM #
That's what I've been thinking. Developers who offer freeware should now charge for it, and 2 cents would be about right. It would then be listed on the main pages of PalmGear again.

What would PalmGear do next? Decide software had to have some minimum pricing to be featured?

Or how about: developers charge the 2 cents and then in their "read me" text, explain to customers that they should email palmGear about a fake "problem" with the software they bought and insist on a refund. PalmGear will contact the developer who will, of course, approved the refund. What will that cost PalmGear in time and effort? A lot more than 2 cents.

RE: Bad decision
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 5:32:51 AM #
awesome :) that cracked me up :) what a rocking concept... i wonder how it would work in practice...

Other ways to get freeware/shareware

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:58:43 AM #
I used to use the commercial sites like Palmgear and Handango. I rarely use them as they really haven't been that helpful and after hearing about developers not getting paid through PG, I was not willing to use them for paid software. I more and more use freewarepalm.net. It has a lot of banner adds and some pop-ups, but most of the software is freeware and most of the programs are relatively new vintage. I can put up with some ads in order to deal with a honest broker of software and to get access to the little freebie programs that seem most important to my use.

PalmGear has too many problems and now they are de-emphasizing the type of software that I use most. I don't need large complex software on my PDA. I look for freebies as there are often neat ideas that don't have a market in the costware world that are worth a fly if the programs are free. Some help and stay around, others don't and get sent to software heaven. Most happy to contribute feedback for beta tests or aftermarket development, and happy to pay for software that is fully developed. Happy to use freewarepalm.net.

RE: Other Palm software sites
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 9:56:04 AM #
PDATopSoft.com

PalmGear, shame on you!

PenreeSoft @ 8/3/2002 12:44:47 PM #
I am a PalmOS developer and have used PalmGear since I released my first program, and I still post my programs on there first before any other place. I decided to be fair with all PalmGear's money troubles and let the late payments slide, but this I don't think I can bear! I think I might remove my software from them and close my relationship off, they seem to be making very bad decisions nowadays and thats no way to be. With all of the alternatives out there, why would PG do this to themselves!

I only purchased 1 piece of software from PalmGear myself, if I buy something I try to go straight through the developer, and I advise you do the same. By going through the developer's site you might find that you are actually paying the developer more because PalmGear takes out 25% and Handango takes out 30%! There are some wonderful companies out there like eSellerate.net only take out 15% for most people, they give you your own webstore, and lots of ways to have your users register their software too! I say if you use PG at all use it to browse through titles and then if you plan on buying go through the developer direct!

Nicholas J. Penree
PenreeSoft
http://www.penreesoft.com

RE: PalmGear, shame on you!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 3:12:36 AM #
I agree with Nicholas.

I'm also a Palm OS software developer. Most of my software are shareware and some are freeware. I hope that folks, after trying out my freeware stuff, would eventually also notice my shareware apps and hopefully would purchase some of my shareware stuff.

It happened once that I have a shareware app then a week after, a similar freeware app came out. At first, I was pissed off but the experience made me improve on my product and I still get software sales. So I don't have a problem with freeware side-to-side with shareware. It gives customers choices.

When Palmgear and Handango decided to increase their commission rates, like other developers, I too looked for alternatives. I end up signing up with Esellerate to process sales on my very own website with only 10% commission.

Now, I need my software to be listed. I signed up with Tucows and Palmvenue, which btw list both freeware and shareware. They don't force me to only list my software exclusively to their site. They basically don't get any cent from me. With Esellerate processing sales and Tucows & Palmvenue listing my software, it's quite a nice setup.

I'm not in anyway affiliated with the above-mentioned sites but I just thought of sharing this information to anyone who is interested. And if we could build-up these small sites then the big ones will have to think before they leap.

James R.

Opportunity for Developers

bcombee @ 8/3/2002 12:53:05 PM #
I'm not in favor of this change, as it reduces the "attention" incentive to right free software for Palm OS. However, there are some ways to work this that might be OK.

#1: The nominal charge shareware. Basically, make your demo application fully functional with no nags, but provide a way for grateful users to register the application. You won't get a lot of sales, but your status will change.

#2: Open-source shareware. This is what Mike McCollister does for McPhling. (see
www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=11596) The application is available with full source under the GPL, but the $12 shareware fee means you'll have support from the author plus notification of updates.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

RE: Opportunity for Developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 5:28:36 PM #
Both of these techniques are fine for peopel just wanting to make a few bucks; they do not work for peopel trying to run a business developing palm software. We just need a good reliable listing service.... PG is a good listing service.. they shoudl focus on that, instead of sales. Handango.. well, we dont' talk about them. Aside from these two big boys, there are no *big* listing services.. thats a good opportunity for someone. Knock POG and Handango off the map.. just be a listing service. Heck, even charge a little to list on it for costware apps.. we're willing to pay a little for that service!
RE: Opportunity for Developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 12:50:26 AM #
Ben,

I would have thought you'd be behind this move by Kenny - given that 99% of *your* customers would be commercial/shareware developers. If someone is gonna write freeware, they are highly unlikely to purchase CW for $400.

I'm a shareware developer, and paid the $$'s for CW because it's a great tool. I see value in it.

Why do people think software should be free? Would you (not you Ben, the royal "you") do your job for free? I didn't think so...

I'd like to know how many people register McPhling, as opposed to those who "will do it tomorrow". Also I'm sure Mike has a fulltime job doing something else, and isn't reliant on McPhling to feed his kids... some people out there actually depend on shareware registrations for a living - let them live I say.

RE: Opportunity for Developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 1:13:30 AM #
Gee Ben, do you do all your work for Metrowerks for free, or do they pay you to fill that belly?
RE: Opportunity for Developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 7:27:23 AM #
> Why do people think software should be free? Would you (not you Ben, the royal "you") do your job for free? I didn't think so...

The software shouldn't be free. It might be free though... So, why do you want it to be hidder. Are you afraid that a freeware application is better than the app you developed and ask money for?

The software developers who program only for money shouldn;t try to kill the others. Maybe the others program to make their name known, and put in the CV: a developped a freeware application which 10000000 people downloaded...

Money is not everything, although in this world it seems like the general opinion is: "I have money, I could s**t on you now". I hate this...


PalmGear is not a complete software resource

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 12:56:41 PM #
PalmGear has only accepted software that THEY SELL. If an author sells his Palm software on his own site or another reseller and not on PalmGear, then they will NOT list it. This has been their policy for about 6 months now. Freeware has been the only exception. Now that they are demoting freeware and emphasizing only what they sell, it is even less complete. Try VersionTracker - they do not host any software, but they do list all software they become aware of. Write a note to them telling them of the opportunity they have with this new policy of PalmGear, and perhaps they will increase their level of service to attract more Palm users. Their service is excellent on other platforms, but it seems the Palm listings are lacking. Lets get behind them and show them some support so we can again have a FULL-SERVICE Palm software listing site!
RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 2:05:54 PM #
"PalmGear has only accepted software that THEY SELL. If an author sells his Palm software on his own site or another reseller and not on PalmGear, then they will NOT list it."

Makes sense. Business is business.

RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 2:43:23 PM #
Yes, but my point is PG is not the place to go (especially with their change in posting policy), at least not the ONLY place to go, if you're looking for an exhaustive list of all Palm software. Only software submitted by the author is listed.

VersionTracker is an excellent resource for Mac software in that they list virtually every piece of software that is released or updated, including commercial, shareware and freeware. Their Palm section is fairly new and if we give them some support, they could become an excellent source for keeping up to date on ALL Palm software.

Software authors... post your new and updated titles to VersionTracker, or at least send them a note if your software is not listed, and they will track it in the future.

I am not affiliated with VT but I think its an excellent resource that has been overlooked by Palm users.

RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 1:16:57 AM #
"PalmGear has only accepted software that THEY SELL. If an author sells his Palm software on his own site or another reseller and not on PalmGear, then they will NOT list it."

Ah, get your facts right. This is far far far from the truth. The majority of the "pay" software listed on gear is not exclusive to them. And a large number of their bigger names sell on Gear, Handango, and their own web site. Gear has no issues with that.

RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 8:06:37 AM #
Yup, original post in this thread is BS! I have my software listed on a bunch of differne tpay shareware sites.
RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:19:04 PM #
Um, are you guys not reading what you are commenting on? I never said it had to be EXCLUSIVE to PalmGear, I just said it had to be sold on PalmGear.

"If an author sells his Palm software on his own site or another reseller and not on PalmGear, then they will NOT list it."

I'm an author myself (TapPad, SkinManager), and several months ago TapPad was pulled from the site because I was not selling it through PalmGear, only directly through TapPad.com. I had to allow them to resell TapPad in order to be listed.

Again, my point is PalmGear is not a COMPLETE Palm software directory, as they are biased towards what they sell. If we throw some support towards sites that DO NOT SELL software, like VersionTracker, then they CAN be a more complete Palm software listing site.

RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 6:49:34 PM #
Look, PalmGear IS a business, not a referral service. I don't have a problem with them pulling software that you won't sell through PalmGear. If it isn't freeware and you list it there, you need to give something back.

Freeware helps Mr. West bring traffic to his site. But not letting people buy your shareware through his site is not right. If you don't like the amount he takes as a cut, don't list it there in the first place.

(But thanks for the tip. Tappad is really great, and my 30 day trial just expired, so I need to go pay for it. At least I know I won't find it at PG, which, according to the latest update, is treating freeware fairly again and is therefore worth returning to.)

RE: PalmGear is not a complete software resource
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 10:40:33 PM #
I agree its a business, and that's what I've been trying to get across. VersionTracker is not a business (at least not in selling software), and is therefore free to post anything and everything Palm as long as they know about it.

So developers, send them your software title submissions if you're not already listed. They're perhaps the best site on the internet at tracking new and updated software. You can't buy from them, but they link to the download and the site where you can buy.

This is bad for the customer

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 1:05:15 PM #
I always went to PalmGear first since they simply have everything and I waslikely to find what I need.

As a user, I'd like to have a means to find the software that fits my needs best and it doesn't matter if it is shareware/commercial or freeware.

By giving the advantage to commercial software, I'm not sure what to think of PG anymore. This is like search engines giving you first the sponsored links, or sales people in shops trying to sell you the product they make the most money with.

In the end, you don't feel happy since you don't know if you really got what you're looking for, or whether they talked you into buying the wrong product or spending more than needed.

It may be a short-term interest of the commercial developers (and thus PG), but in the long run, it is bad for their customers which are likely going to take their business elsewhere.

RE: This is bad for the customer
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 6:55:57 PM #
Well said. I agree completely. This is about reliability. When vendors make it harder to find cheaper products, customers can't trust them.

What about FreewarePalm?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 1:20:27 PM #
www.freewarepalm.com
If you don't mind 72 pop up, under, and slides on the way, they always have freeware, and it seems to be updated constantly!

RE: What about FreewarePalm?
bcombee @ 8/3/2002 3:43:32 PM #
I never see pop-ups at this site while visiting with Mozilla 1.1 (and pop-ups turned off).

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

Oh God....Hello Handango????

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 1:55:32 PM #
I never thought I'd see the day I'd be saying that Handango does it better.
RE: Oh God....Hello Handango????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 2:13:59 PM #
One of the main reasons I check PalmGear everyday is to see if any of my favorite software has a update.
No I will have to go check one by one. This also means I will not be visiting PalmGear as much. SO you might as well just turn off your advertisments. You hit are gonna go down.

OrionNE

Overreaction
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 2:29:45 PM #
How is this different from Internet search engines listing their paid customers first, and other sites "dumping" their ads on us through pop-up windows, and embedded ads (even Palm Infocenter is not immune to this). So, we should boycott everything else since it's not what we want?

If you don't like the way Palmgear does its business, then you should visit one of those other sites that only list freeware. BTW, I don't use any freeware programs since I can find shareware or commercialware that's so much better than freeware anyway.

RE: Oh God....Hello Handango????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 6:59:35 PM #
No, you've got the analogy backwards. What it means is I should avoid the search engines that list advertisers first. And that's what I do. PalmGear has just joined that list.
RE: Oh God....Hello Handango????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 6:22:25 AM #
ever tried google? payed links are on the right side, you dont even have to look at them if you dont want to

Its the advertising, stupid

Chankla @ 8/3/2002 2:52:33 PM #
Dear Palm Gear:
Run a simple experiment:
Segment off the "Freeware" from the "Payware" onto two different sites.
See which one attracts the most traffic and winds up viewing the most banners ads or pop-ups.

Not only does this hurt the "up and coming" developers.
It is going to hurt Palm Gear.

Dumb...

UZI4U182 @ 8/3/2002 2:52:30 PM #
Kenneth West is an *******. Im not going to Palmgear ever again. Does anybody know where there is a site comparable to PalmGear other than this new change? I think there should be more freeware, but no, everybody wants money nowadays for every little thing. I pay for some applications, like Wordsmith, but only apps that I think are worth it, like Wordsmith.

--Devan--
RE: Dumb...
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 5:26:37 PM #
You take for granted freeware developers. [sarcasm] How about you go do your job for free. What, you don't want to? Jeez, what is the world coming to that everyone wants compensation for their work? [/sarcasm]

And by the way, you shouldn't say that about the Kenny West. Business is about money, and Kenny West figures this way he will make more, and possibly save his company.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

RE: Dumb...
Psikotic @ 8/4/2002 4:59:13 AM #
"How about you go do your job for free. What, you don't want to? Jeez, what is the world coming to that everyone wants compensation for their work?"

Of course everyone wants compensation, but only those that do good work should get it. Of course, everyone "thinks" that their work is good, but it is up to those that compensate to determine that. Notice that most people (even those that use freeware) have no problem paying for high-quality software such as wordsmith or datebook5.

"And by the way, you shouldn't say that about the Kenny West. Business is about money, and Kenny West figures this way he will make more, and possibly save his company."

And the point is that this is a retarded business decision. How is he going to save the company by reducing traffic and alienating freeware authors and hardcore users? Any personal feelings aside, it just isn't the right decision.


RE: Dumb...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 10:20:52 AM #
>I pay for some applications, like Wordsmith, but only apps that I think are worth it, like Wordsmith.

Wow, how profound! He only pays for things that he thinks are worth it. What the **** do you think the rest of us do? Buy every one of the 18,000 Palm apps available?

One last time...if you don't like the product, don't buy it and don't use it. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to buy HandCrap 2.7.

RE: Dumb...
allen_goodman @ 8/4/2002 8:48:05 PM #
I am shocked. Do you mean there are people out there who actually want to get paid for their work? I like freeware but, those are people who are doing it for fun. They don't have to make a living doing it. Give me a good piece of software and I will willingly pay for it. I can't believe there are people surprized that Palmgear actually needs to make money and will emphasize commerical software as opposed to software where they make nothing. Come on folks, get a life. Live in the real world.

RE: Dumb...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 10:50:20 PM #
Business is about money true. Part of that is paying the peoples whose items you sell. You and Kenny seem to have fogotten this aspect of business.

People who are worried about ads:

UZI4U182 @ 8/3/2002 2:52:30 PM #
My website is completely ad free, that i run in my free time and it has some good Palm OS apps on it. There arent thousands, maybe not even a hundred, but who wants a hundred apps on their Palm device? Not me, but i'm always adding apps that are free. I also have a poll and a newsletter you can sign up for. Did i mention a message board?

--Devan--

Unfortunately, your site has links to pirated software, therefore I've removed the link. -Ed

RE: People who are worried about ads:
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 6:09:48 PM #
Ugh! Turn off the blinking dude. It's so 1998.
RE: People who are worried about ads:
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:32:55 PM #
And you also link to warez! That is so very generous of you.
RE: People who are worried about ads:
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:00:52 PM #
Worst Site Ever.

Interesting

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 3:20:52 PM #
I just looked in at Palmgear, and they are still showing freeware.

Maybe they got a wakeup call?

Here's why Kenny should keep freeware:

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 3:43:27 PM #
It would DECREASE the percentage of developers he owes money to and his relationships with them would appear better on paper. Am I right?
RE: Here's why Kenny should keep freeware:
marcusbankuti @ 8/3/2002 5:20:14 PM #
He would still owe the same amount of money, and bring in the same amount of money. So no, that is not the reason.

Now, Kenny should keep freeware listed to avoid boycotts and unsatisfied customers who visit for all their Palm OS software needs, including freeware and shareware. This is just a desperate attempt to hide clones, free alternatives etc. to boost sales. In the end though, I think that they will just end up reversing this after hearing all the negative feedback, and seeing their sales actually decrease.

www.pdaavenue.com

marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

He has to... and PalmGear will stay fail.

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 4:00:36 PM #
I am sure he doesn't want to do it, but he needs to keep a sinking ship afloat. It will only alienate more people though, and the ship is going to sink anyway.

ANOTHER Stupid Decision by West/PalmGear

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 4:42:56 PM #
This is getting amazing!
It is astounding to see a company so totally LOSE SIGHT of their purpose.

It is almost painful to need to remind a company that their CUSTOMERS are what drive a company's success; and yet, Once AGAIN, PalmGear, acting in its own perceived self-interest, FORGETS their CUSTOMERS.

Another STUPID decision they recently made: They made the software-review requirements increasingly strict so that reviewers were almost FORCED to only say "syruppy sweet" things about apps. And then simply DUMPING well-deserved harsh reviews.

Well, it is indeed unfortunate, but in this case JUSTICE will be served automatically: PalmGear continues their idiot's drive to force their former loyal customers to sites that haven't forgotten the simple fact, "Customers are the Source of your Business."

Please folks: Support the sites that Support You ...
And make West/PalmGear aware that you don't appreciate their repeated anti-customer actions!

RE: ANOTHER Stupid Decision by West/PalmGear
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 8:43:53 PM #
uhhh, show me where reviews are forced to be "sugary sweet"... because I don't see anything in the review rules that would suggest that. Let's look at things you might have thought suggest this:

"Profanity or flaming of a developer, application or PalmGear.com will not be tolerated!"
Profanity should obviously be there. Flaming is not the same as criticism.

"DO NOT use the review area to direct readers to other software products or offsite url's"
This is complete understandable

"Reviews are Approved Periodically"
Approved so that they can filter out reviews that violate these rules -- this is a GOOD aspect.

"PalmGear.com reserves the right to accept or decline any and all reviews added at the sole discretion of PalmGear.com"
This doesn't say 'if the review is negative' or anything. This is to avoid any hassles someone might give them about declining their review (eg nonsense reviews or something)

I see plenty of bad reviews for software on palmgear. You're not making sense?

RE: ANOTHER Stupid Decision by West/PalmGear
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 7:22:35 PM #
Why should recommending alternative software be prohibited by PG? If I review, say, AportisDoc (perhaps the greatest example of a good program turned to crap by incompetent/greedy developers) why shouldn't I mention, say, CSpotRun, which is free and better besides? You can't under PG's policy of huckstering for any and all software they sell.

On the other hand Kenny West has always been an amazingly hands-on chief exec, even writing users directly and solving their complaints promptly. I've had a couple email exchanges with him over the years and been very impressed with KW.

Finally, let's all re-read KW's direct response above: Freeware is NOT disappearing from PG, just being deemphasized. Not too honorable, but understandable in view of PG's money problems.

RE: ANOTHER Stupid Decision by West/PalmGear
Psikotic @ 8/5/2002 10:00:37 AM #
"Why should recommending alternative software be prohibited by PG? If I review, say, AportisDoc (perhaps the greatest example of a good program turned to crap by incompetent/greedy developers) why shouldn't I mention, say, CSpotRun, which is free and better besides? You can't under PG's policy of huckstering for any and all software they sell."

I don't imagine it is "huckstering" as opposed to blocking spam. With no policy in place, what is to stop X developer from putting in links to his own product's website? It could be totally irrelevant to the current product, totally crappy, or not even Palm related. Hell, without the policy what is to stop someone from advertising their porn site in a review? I don't think the policy is there with the intention of keeping users from recommending alternatives.

PDA in Hand now offering

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 5:03:43 PM #
Hi All

I would like to inform any and all software developers that wish to have there software, free or buy. This is a new website for Canadians witch features Canadian and there development. If you anyquestion please contact us.

Thank you

Brett Banks
PDA in Hand
www.pdainhand.com

RE: PDA in Hand now offering
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:08:03 PM #
I would like to inform any and all software developers that wish to have there software, free or buy. This is a new website for Canadians witch features Canadian and there development. If you anyquestion please contact us.
--------------

I sure hope your site has less spelling/grammar mistakes....

RE: PDA in Hand now offering
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 11:09:53 PM #
Only for Canadian developers ... uh...what? Canada has software developers ?

There is still freeware avalible

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 5:03:50 PM #
I just looked at palm gear site (10 am GMT), there is still freeware avalible!

But I thinks the decission to remove the freewares is not bad! Hey, Palm Gear can only survive, when they make money!
But there is an other site which offer only freeware.
Look at: http://www.freewarepalm.com/utilities/today.shtml

There is still freeware avalible

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 5:03:50 PM #
I just looked at palm gear site (10 am GMT), there is still freeware avalible!

But I thinks the decission to remove the freewares is not bad! Hey, Palm Gear can only survive, when they make money!
But there is an other site which offer only freeware.
Look at: http://www.freewarepalm.com/utilities/today.shtml

RE: There is still freeware avalible
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 9:50:12 PM #
Nice post Jonas... linking to your own software... what a moron.
RE: There is still freeware avalible
Schorsch @ 8/4/2002 5:04:03 AM #
This post was not from Jonas!
I have had postet this link!
Just had forgot to remove the sign in Anonymously
sorry.

Georg
RE: There is still freeware avalible
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 7:31:47 AM #
As I stated in my reply letter to Palmgear, it is meaningless to "de-emphasize" freeware because it is easy to by-pass their system. (We voted for not doing the change.)

You may just add a price tag to your freeware (say $1 or $10000) and the system just show your software, and you upload the full version into the system. Then everyone can donwload and get it free without hurrying about the policy of Palmgear.

In addition, I also stated that PalmGear would be no longer be PalmGear without free software.

You will see freewares again in Palmgear because it is easy to bypass the system.

Palmgear, please cancel the policy, it is meaningless.

USers?

OzziePalmDieHard @ 8/3/2002 6:02:09 PM #
"This was not a PalmGear decision but the result of a vote: PalmGear asked the developers for whom it acts as a reseller in June if they wanted free products to be removed from those pages or not, and the results show that among the 593 replies, 66% voted in favor of freeware "removal". "

How about ask the users?

I would think that PG makes most of their money from people who look for freeware, but then see shareware that really catches their eye.
Without freeware, their majority of users will leave.

HOnestly, who looks for software aiming to spend money?

The linux-esque community palm has is important, it continues to make it my OS of choice, as i know i can get thousands of free apps...

Just my 2 cents

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
13yrs Old, Flat Broke
Odds of ever affording a palm without resorting to crime: 1765:1

RE: Users?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 7:59:48 PM #
> How about ask the users?

They did, by changing their website. If users disagree, the they will vote with their pocketbooks, and sales will go down. If sales don't go down, then whatever the users may say, the've voted with what counts as far as any business is concerned, their cash.

As a user, I'll go to the PalmOS site with the largest selection first. might be PalmGear, might not be...

What a pinheaded decision

Stardust @ 8/3/2002 7:25:51 PM #
The Palming community is now being penalized for the fiscal incompetence of Palmgear executives. This is absolutely unfair. By moving to suppress freeware on its pages, Palmgear has also trashed the very element that had contributed to its huge success: the rich variety of its content. What a microcephalic decision. Will we see a backlash in the form of PDA users trooping to freewarepalm.com and--heaven forbid--to Palmwarez?

I'm Gone from palmgear & used to love it

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 8:32:01 PM #
I can't tell you how many times I was surfing palmgear & ended up buying something. But, it was knowing the freeware was there too & just as easy to find that kept me there. As w/ other posts, I am not surfing looking to spend $. but if I end up doing so then ok.

Goodbye palmgear. It was a good ride, your site was great and I thought you were first class. Now you can test the business model change - 1 less user, guaranteed no more purchases from that 1 less user.


The M$ gene

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 9:41:11 PM #
The Microsoft gene must be setting in. PalmGear gets tarnished by the minute...
RE: The M$ gene
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:04:37 PM #
Please don't try to blame EVERYTHING on MSFT...

I got news for you - your boy Steve Jobs ain't no saint.


RE: The M$ gene
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 12:44:23 AM #
>>I got news for you - your boy Steve Jobs ain't no saint.

Of course not. He's a minor deity.

RE: The M$ gene
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 8:07:40 AM #
Please watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" and read the book "On the Firing Line: My 500 Days at Apple" and you will see what kind of man Jobs is. I think Gates is a much better human being.


RE: The M$ gene
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 7:29:26 PM #
Yes, and anthrax is a much better disease than ebola.

Difficult decision, but not the end of the world

mashby @ 8/3/2002 9:58:01 PM #
With the US economy sinking lower and lower is it any surprise that PalmGear has to make some tough decisions? I know that this decision isn't going to be popular, but if it helps increase sales and give PalmGear the shot in the arm it needs, then so be it.

We all know that PalmGear has had some difficult times of recent and we all know that they are working hard to "make things right." IMHO, I'd rather see tough decisions like this one put in place if it helps turn things around for PalmGear.

I still buy all my software from PalmGear and will continue to do so. PalmGear is not removing freeware, they are simply "De-emphasizing" it. Tough times call for tough decisions, but that doesn't change the fact that PalmGear has had any software title I've ever looked for and I've had 100% satisfaction as a customer. I can't say that about the other guys.

RE: Difficult decision, but not the end of the world
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 4:25:36 PM #
Amen,
RE: Difficult decision, but not the end of the world
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 5:55:14 AM #
What tough decisions? By "de-emphasizing" freeware and promoting paying software (which they have difficulty paying out anyway) is not a tough decision. It is a stupid decision.

Free or paid software needs customers. Period. And if I am a customer and my needs are not met we go elsewhere. I can't imagine a simple rule as this can still be ignored today - especially during tough times!

wait...

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:41:42 PM #
which developers did it ask? I recieved no email or notice
They asked me...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 7:48:07 AM #
As a registered developer with PalmGear, I received the email requesting my opinion on this matter on June 19th. I did not vote in favor of this controversial move, and am very upset about some of their payment policies. This has made me think long and hard about pulling all of my apps from their site. What a shame...the first site on my browser's favorites list is about to become a memory...

Correct Decision! Less Junk

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/3/2002 10:41:51 PM #
The decision to move Freeware to the bottom of the search pages is one that Palmgear has made and we have to accept it. They are NOT removing the freeware programs!

Have a look at specific search engines (Tucows, Yahoo and others) and quickly you can see that the the first results of a search are purely based on how much the developer payed for the privilege to be placed on top! That means also that the better software (whether shareware or freeware) could be located all the way at the bottom since the developer wasn't willing to shell several hundred or thousand of $$$ to be placed on top of searches.

Tucows for example has a "deal" that let's the developer pay for specific keywords, each time these are searched for, the software gets 'triggered' and placed right on top of the search results. Yahoo has something similar. Maybe CNET too but I haven't checked.

Palmgear has never done this. They are simply doing it in a different way by automatically placing freeware on the bottom of the search results while shareware is NOT sorted by who paid most for the keywords.

Personally, I hate the Handango website. Takes too long to find what I am looking for. If I want freeware, I know where to look.

The download-to-buy ratio on Palmgear is much lower than on Handango (downright apalling compared to Handango), this is probably one of the reasons why Palmgear decided that they could do well enough without the people who only come there to download the latest freeware program or shareware program that can be cracked, never to purchase the first piece of software.

Will they lose some customers? Sure.

Will the site be better without the freeware on the front page ? I believe personally it will be. Not that I am again freeware, there are some absolutely excellent free programs available that beat the pants of commercial software. However, at times when going thru Palmgear's software selection, there is only PURE JUNK there and one has to scroll through several pages to get to the first decent piece of software.
(and NO, not all commercial software titles are decent). I now can find the shareware titles easier and select the ones I might have an interest in. Of course I will also be looking for similar freeware titles, but maybe in a different location.

Most people who are looking to buy PDA software RARELY do so without trying a demo as well as several other, similar software titles to make a pretty well informed decision BEFORE they pay for it. (Personally, I actually find it amazing that noone ever asks MSFT for a 30 day demo of the latest version of Windows, or a version that has nag screens ....sorry, not trying to single out MSFT here, just came to mind...., yet, for software that costs between $5 and $25 (the majority), it is basically required to have a demo version, otherwise the developer doesn't stand a chance in hell of a lot of sales.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I also will try out the demo as well as competing products before making a purchase to ensure that in my mind, I have the best possible product, and at times that has been a freeware product.

Anyone who doesn't do so nowadays and just purchases without trying it out first is just on a good way of wasting money.

Good business decision ? From a pure money oriented view, maybe yes, longterm effects remain to be seen.

I for one hope Palmgear survives its current problems and once becomes a very strong competitor to Handango again.

And no, my name is NOT Kenny West and I do NOT work for Palmgear.


RE: Correct Decision! Less Junk
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 12:41:18 PM #
"However, at times when going thru Palmgear's software selection, there is only PURE JUNK there and one has to scroll through several pages to get to the first decent piece of software."

And the majority of the "PURE JUNK" these days is shareware. What I see is someone writing code for the PalmOS for the first time, charging $5 to $15 for a poor idea that is even more poorly executed and no one buys it. And they get discouraged. Do they come up with a better idea or make improvements. No, they either move on to some other hobby or moan that no one is buying their junk because of freeware, "Oh, it's not my problem. Some one is posting a better product for free. And the masses are selecting it over my lousy software. Freeware bad! Ruining my chances to retire! No one appreciates all the hours that I put into developing my junk!"

Part of the succes of PalmOS is due in large part to freeware.

I just deleted palmgear.com from my bookmark

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 12:44:19 AM #
I just deleted palmgear.com from my bookmark, and I will try my best not to go there for any download.
RE: I just deleted palmgear.com from my bookmark
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:05:42 PM #
Wow. *phew* You had us all worried that you would actually KEEP the bookmark. Thanks for the update. We can all sleep well again.
RE: I just deleted palmgear.com from my bookmark
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 4:10:36 PM #
to the above poster ("phew"):

now the teenagers are stepping in with their
clever remarks! wow!

The Developer's Choice

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 1:40:13 AM #
10 of the "Top 50" titles on Palmgear are freeware.The number one title is freeware. Many of the most useful hacks and utilities are freeware. Some of these programs were not written by PalmOS developers. These are people who make a hobby out of it, they are not looking for a big score. Palmgear is forcing these developers to charge for their software in order for it to remain visible. If Jens Rupp wants to give Big Clock away, well that is a prerogative. It is updates to software like Big Clock and xmaster and DiddleBug that bring me back to Palmgear.

In addition, much of the shareware I see posted lately is either useless or way overpriced. Why would I want to pay for a football schedule. I can enter that into datebook myself.

RE: The Developer's Choice
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 5:36:26 AM #
I agree, so our company voted to object the proposal. But...
RE: The Developer's Choice
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 12:31:58 PM #
I had a thought that I wanted to add to my earlier post:
A good number of software authors who post freeware on Palmgear are posting software that is in "development". The freeware is actually a beta and they are looking for people to test it. Two excellent examples of this are McPhling and LauncherIII, both of these titles started out as freeware and after many updates and a few bug fixes turned into very polished pieces of software. If they had been buried where the public could not readily find them, would they be shareware today?

Freeware Authors: create PENNYWARE

sandbuck @ 8/4/2002 11:10:04 AM #
Screw those guys. Fill in the cost field with $.01, check the shareware button and keep moving.

RE: Freeware Authors: create PENNYWARE
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 6:56:11 PM #
I posted that yesterday (see above)

''Share'' != free

quacksalve @ 8/4/2002 11:26:47 AM #
They're only demoting the visibility of freeware.

A lot of what you freeloaders consider "free" is really shareware that you're not paying for, and will still be listed.

Policy Reversed?

dws90 @ 8/4/2002 11:36:22 AM #
I just looked at PalmGear and under the 'New Software Listings on the HOme Page there was almost nothing be freeware. If you search for DOc, Simply Install (Freeware)is Number 5 on the list, followed by more shareware products.

Weird.

How's about ''EdGear''?

jonecool @ 8/4/2002 2:28:21 PM #
Ed,

How hard would it be to create an extension to PalmInfocenter to allow uploading/downloading software to your site? I guess initially it would take some time, but after that you might make more money off of that than in banner ads? Shoot, you could hire someone to take care of the administration stuff so you could keep the excellent Palm News Coverage.

It would be great to see "EdGear". The one-stop visit for all Palm-related Applications (Shareware, Commercial and FREEWARE) plus all the latest in Palm News and Rumors!

You have one vote for EdWare here :)

RE: How's about ''EdGear''?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 5:55:04 AM #
make that two. two very important votes, IMHO :)

Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 2:49:10 PM #
While I cannot say every decision we ahve ever made was a good one.. We are takig all comments into consideration and thus we have started the process to reverse the de-emphasis of freeware at PalmGear.com Our web tema will be reverting the site back to the state it was prior, i.e. Free software will be listed ont he home page as well as search results ordered as was before.... Thanks to one and all here and via direct email for your comments and feedback.

Regards,

Kenny West
PalmGear.com
kenw@palmgear.com

RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 3:36:32 PM #
A wise on your part. Thanks for listening!
RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 3:54:33 PM #
I've been following this discussion, and I think most of the dissenters misunderstood and believed you were removing freeware from PalmGear, not just from the front page.

The fact is, with the current amount of new software and updates to existing software being released, a program only appears on the front page for a matter of hours these days. This was the reason behind PalmGears decision, and I fully support it.

To the person who says no-one searches PalmGear, they just look at the front page: do YOU visit Palmgear every 8 hours to make sure you don't miss an important application?


RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.co
Ed @ 8/4/2002 4:31:44 PM #
Could someone at PalmGear send me an email to confirm that this policy has been reversed?

Thanks,
ed@palminfocenter.com

---
News Editor

RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com
ardiri @ 8/4/2002 5:02:23 PM #
now that the front page has been reverted back - how about the top-fifty and top-fifty monthly pages as well? if i look here:

http://www.palmgear.com/software/software.cfm?typeID=1&catID=112

i can clearly see that every item that is listed there, is actually something you can buy on PGHQ. there are no freeware applications listed there. if your going to do a policy reversal, dont mess around and do only one page - do them all.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 6:21:05 PM #
Bad move Kenny. How are you gonna pay us now...?
RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 9:56:05 PM #
Kenny:

I'm the poster of the comment that I purchased Monopoly a couple of weeks ago from your competitor. I truly appreciate your reversal and honestly believe it was the best move both for PalmGear and the Palm community.

The majority of the people on this board can probably be considered leaders - at least among their peers - in the still growing acceptance of Palm devices. I'm sure that I'm not the only one to recommend your site to a Newbie because of the well organized and easily used site. This reversal makes it easier to continue this practice.

Now about the financial problems. I'm not a developer but I do register the applications I use on an ongoing basis. Until recently, I have always registered through your site. I do understand that most of the developers are one man shops and can't afford to float funds. There are rightfully p*ssed off. I hope you can solve this problem to everyone's satisfaction.

Anon

RE: Reverting back to Prior Display: Kenny West; PalmGear.com
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 11:25:48 PM #
It is sad to see Palmgear reverse its decision.

Another Stupid CEO

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 8:47:50 PM #
I think Kenny's head is still stuck in the sand. What BS! Some of the sleazy spin he is putting into justifying his reasons are classic School Of Ken Lay, Jeff Skilling & Co. classics.

You are disgusting and PalmGear deserves to close down.

RE: Another Stupid CEO
Stingray @ 8/4/2002 10:34:29 PM #
I think most of the people on this board are a bit harsh on him(kenny) What would you do in his place? he is just trying to make the best decision for his company. How would you like it if you had hundreds of dollars in debt? I am not some kind of palmgear fanatic, I am a developer and i can say flat out that i have gotten 3x the revenue from their competitor even tho their "tax" is a little bit more. Remember when pilotgear was just a simple site back in the days of the original palmpilot? Condemning this man and his site just because he is trying to keep it from bankruptcy is just not right.
Just my honest opinion.
Kumaresan Balakrishnan,
Concept Design Inc.


"May the potato be with you!"
RE: Another Stupid CEO - Forgive and Forget, and Then Some
cptdean @ 8/4/2002 10:51:40 PM #
The important thing here is that Kenny listened to the public and reversed the policy. Are we to blast him for making an unwise decision, and blast him again for reversing it???

If we all really want to see PalmGear survive, I think it will take an effort on everyone's part...developers and buyers alike.

Here's an idea. What if the developers 'donate' one week's worth of sales to PalmGear, and we all go out and buy one piece of software from them. Would that help turn their financial situation around, or is it worse than that.

Just a thought.

Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes by itself.

RE: Another Stupid CEO
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 11:52:27 PM #
The issue here is that Kenny's "business decision" was based on some poll he took from developers and therefore he should just implement it without considering the most important factor - his customers.

It is a stupid decision anyway. Developers have options now to list their software elsewhere. If Kenny wants exclusive rights to those software he needs customers and causing ill-will to them is not the way to go. The developers have different options but PalmGear has only one - willing customers choosing them over others.

While we feel for the troubles PalmGear has gotten itself into, this is no way to ask the community to show support in return.

One would think that with all the recent "callous" actions (such as Iambic?), Kenny should have known the Palm community are a vociferous lot and can be supportive when called to arms. But to have ignored this fact and place the "blame" on developers, PalmGear is shooting its own foot - the developers on the left and the customers on the right. Very, very stupid.

RE: Another Stupid CEO
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 4:03:42 AM #
Well as a good business owner he should NOT be thousands in debt in the first place. Unless he is blowing money on uneccesarry items or embezeling. And if he did do it all right then it is telling him that his business model is FLAWED find a new one or GET OUT.

If he had any morals and had a company on the verge of bankrupcy the MORAL and proper thing to do is pay YOUR ****ING DEBTS FIRST SCUMBAG. However, in todays world that just would not be prudent would it. Screwing others and passing the buck is what its all about.

PYRAMID SCHEME?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 8:46:29 AM #
Sounds like a Ponzi Pyramid scheme. Rob from Peter to Pay Paul?

Nutty as a fruitcake

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 10:47:05 PM #
This guy Kenny West is about as nutty as that guy from Brighthand.
RE: Nutty as a fruitcake
Nismo96 @ 8/4/2002 11:06:14 PM #
What are you talking about? What, if anything, do Kenny West and Steve Bush have to do with each other?

Palmgear is a store. Brighthand is a PDA Discussion/News site. I don't see the connection, and I don't know why you'd consider Steve "nutty."

RE: Nutty as a fruitcake: NOT...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/4/2002 11:12:08 PM #
Sheesh.. First off I will not reply any further to any threads here after this post to this and a few others..

1. Guess we were damned if we did and damned if we did not in regards to de-emphasizing freeware then reversing back to the original way listings were handled. Got hammered pretty well both ways... What? Would have been better to leave with the de-emphasis of free for a week or longer then change back?

2. When reading over some that slammed, used profanity, etc., etc. here was not fair in any way whatsoever! Just because someone does not like a decision is no reason to call them an ass, etc., etc. Have some decorum people.

3. To those of you who clarified in a reasonable manner, thank you!

4. Amazing.. we get hammered over this yet "that other Palm site" get's zip?

In any event we have listened and will continue to and further whenever possible will do all we can to make the site all it can be to as many as possible.

Regards,

Kenny West
PalmGear.com

RE: Nutty as a fruitcake
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 1:26:02 AM #

> 4. Amazing.. we get hammered over this yet "that other Palm site" get's zip?

That other Palm site hasn't stolen thousands of dollars from individual developers like you have...

RE: Nutty as a fruitcake
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 8:38:26 AM #
"That other Palm site hasn't stolen thousands of dollars from individual developers like you have..."

No that other site just filed a frivilous law suit which it lost at the cost of a couple of million to Palmgear. I tell you what, why don't I just sue your employer, or you, for no reason and lose, and see how long you can stay out of bankrupcy after you pay the attorney fees... better yet, why not sue "that other Palm site", and see how long it remains afloat.

Before you spout off about someone's business practices, let's see how many successful businesses you have run.. or will after you quit your job flipping burgers

RE: Nutty as a fruitcake
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 3:43:45 PM #
I find it amazing that Kenny and his supporters keep wringing their hands and crying about how mean the big bad Handango people are. It's all their fault!

Since when does being in a lawsuit authorize you to STEAL?? What exactly makes you think that you deserve to be in business?

Handango was apparently unjustified in bring their lawsuit. Who cares? How does their wrong action justify yours? You DEFRAUDED and STOLE from your customers.

The lawsuit that *should* be filed is by the developers who were cheated. Then Kenny (who ultimately made the decision to steal to support his company) should have criminal charges pressed.

Kenny, you can try to play the poor victim, or the concerned Palm community member, but the truth is you're no better than a common thief. The Palm community will do just fine without you. Feel free to close up shop any time you like. You'll not incite any guilty feelings here.

-Absolutely Disgusted

RE: Nutty as a fruitcake
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 7:52:51 PM #
"The Palm community will do just fine without you. Feel free to close up shop any time you like"

Speak for yourself big mouth.. I would very much miss Palmgear.. please go shop somewhere else.. like Pocket PC apps.. the Palm community does not need YOU.

Goodbye, PalmGear!

Fender @ 8/5/2002 1:32:01 AM #
PalmGear won't survive much longer. They're getting stupid. They also aren't providing the caliber of service that Handango is providing. I find that I get my purchases quicker with Handango. They're also offering points on purchases that can be redeemed in the form of discounts on future purchases.
I have decided not to purchase from PalmGear again.

RE: Goodbye, PalmGear!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 9:37:17 AM #
I am a developer and am not actually happy with both of them - Palmgear does not pay and it is completely messed up showing the software in categories. Handango pays but competes with its own developers using their site as a good marketing tool. I am very much looking for the third party to switch to.

Futile

PIC mobile user @ 8/5/2002 3:52:24 AM #
it seems that this method would be futile as there full of freewares in the net. palm users would still be able to find freewares. i think palmgear should lower the prices of more expensive softwares instead for a more effective approach

other sites

PIC mobile user @ 8/5/2002 7:24:04 AM #
There are always other sites to find freeware

Another win for the Palm OS community...

wilco @ 8/5/2002 9:46:46 AM #
First, Palm (and that of Palm websites), then Iambic (on the Datebook fiasco), now, Palmgear had been forced to reverse an unpopular act. Hurray for the Palm community. Kudos for letting our voices be heard.

Don't kid yourself
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 10:38:16 AM #
Let me say, first, that I posted a couple of the comments we see above. However, let's not get carried away with this "palm community" idea. This is merely a discussion board frequented by a couple hundred enthusiasts who, together, probably represent less than 2% of the customer base of these companies.

Sure, no company wants bad P.R., however, the vast majority of PDA owners never even have installed any third party software, much less visited PalmGear, much less visit PalmInfocenter and read the comments to the articles.

There isn't a company out there that has as many detractors in the tech community than Microsoft, however, it doesn't seem to affect them one bit. In fact, all the hackers and virus-writers probably spur their customers to constantly upgrade.

So it's great that PalmGear will display updated versions of freeware for 30 minutes on the homepage. To call this some kind of victory is lame. To personalize this by commenting on Kenny personally is even more lame. Grow up. When PalmGear goes under, you all will be crying about how great it was.


RE: Another win for the Palm OS community...
wilco @ 8/5/2002 11:55:28 AM #
This 2% may be small but it's their voice that makes mainstream press takes notice and reverse their bad decisions due to bad PR.

Microsoft is immune to bad PR due to it's monopolistic position, even then, bad press like that on it's new licensing scheme, makes Microsoft extend it's dateline by almost a year. Although Microsoft never backdown and the dateline had passed last July 31st.

I never want Palmgear to go under ( I didn't even called for a boycott of Palmgear.), and if it did, it's because of Palmgear's bad business decisions (this fiasco is one of them), not some small Palm Community. Did I comment on Kenny? Kenny's great for being a pioneer on the Palm software scene, but lately some his business decisions are bad, and this is one way of telling him how we feel.

Ed: I'm curious as to ''How Much $$$ to host a 1GB site?''

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 11:57:44 AM #
How much money does it cost to just run the servers of a high-access site needing decent space for downloads?

A Cross

RE: Ed: I'm curious as to ''How Much $$$ to host a 1GB site?
Ed @ 8/5/2002 12:21:51 PM #
I'm no expert but I'd guess it would be between $1,500 and $2,000 a month. Anyone work for a hosting company and can give a better answer?

---
News Editor
RE: Ed: I'm curious as to ''How Much $$$ to host a 1GB site?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/6/2002 1:27:25 AM #
1 GB of data and nothing else is easy; lots of people do that with a $600 DELL on a $50/mo DSL line (for mp3's). The hard part is doing it with the dedicated bandwidth to up/download that GB to lots of simultaneous users, serving up to 100's of dynamic web pages per second, handling all the transactions in several back-end databases which are also being modified by developers in real-time, and putting that on a system where a mere disk crash won't take out the web site for more than a few seconds. If my paycheck depended on it, I wouldn't try that with much less than a rack (or several) of servers with raid disk arrays, including hot spares, in a hosting facility with multiple external internet connections. Not cheap.

Freeware gone again...reversal reversed?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/6/2002 8:42:02 AM #
Checked PalmGear today (8/6/02), freeware is gone from search results again. Also gone from 'Updated' list but saw some under 'New.'

So, is Kenny West reversing his reversal?

PalmGONE

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/6/2002 9:49:56 AM #
Yeah...being a MD, programmer and believer in free software and pda's everywhere in health environment, I can only say that PalmGear is a disgrace...my two freeware medical applications are gone...and they've been used all over the world. Shame on you...health pro's, look for your apps somewhere else!

Branko

PalmGear FREEWARE Reversal policy???

Gekko @ 11/2/2002 11:35:23 AM #
If Kenny said he reversed his "de-emphasizing of freeware" policy, why when I do a search for that great program by Jonas L. "TODAY" at Palmgear, it doesn't show up on the results - yet it's been downloaded like 40,000+ times so it should turn up high (if not first in the sort order)?? The app is still there but VERY DIFFICULT to find. AM I missing something? What's going on???

RE: PalmGear FREEWARE Reversal policy???
zchorzepa @ 3/23/2003 6:58:36 PM #
another palm software store: PDAGreen.com - they do list freeware http://www.pdagreen.com/software_browse.asp?top=10&type=freeapps

@ 7/15/2005 #

@ 7/15/2005 #

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