Comments on: PalmGear De-emphasizes Freeware (Updated)

I think there is some misunderstanding as we DO allow BOTH Free and non free software at our site. The only difference that is being implemented is that free software is not going to be listed on the home page with New or Updated software. No software (free or otherwise) has been removed. Search results still show free software with the only difference being they are now listed at the end of the results pages. Additionally the Advanced Software Search which can be accessed via this link:

http://wwws.palmgear.com/software/asksoftware.cfm

or on the initial page of search results page after entering search criteria in the search criteria entry field at the upper left has the option that has always been there that allows locating Free software via the drop down choice list "Application or Document". Additionally I would like to point out that our only commercial competitor has not only not listed freeware for quite some time they do not list it whatsoever.

In any event we are open to suggestions and want to do what we can to make the site as useful as is possible while maximizing revenues for the software developers whose software is listed.

Regards,

Kenny West
PalmGear.com
http://www.palmgear.com
"The One Stop Source for your Palm Connected Organizer!"

If Palmgear is on the edge of dying it sure didn't help by being stupid. You nailed the last nail into your own coffin, Kenny.

strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

Let's remember, palm guys, that even Yahoo has started charging for services (again, you can't afford $29 for full-featured email with 50meg of storage?). The economy is bad and all tech sectors are taking it on the chin. In case you haven't noticed.

I think you are missing the point. I used to go to Palmgear everyday, because it was the one place where I could go to find out information about every piece of software available for the Palm (free, or shareware). Occasionally, I would for to the freewarepalm or Handango sites just to see if Palmgear had missed anything. Now, I'll probably start going to Handango and/or Palmspot to see if they carry a complete list.

In the long run, this is going to drive people away, because the value of Palmgear was not specificly that they had freeware or shareware. The value was that they had everything easily accessiible. And now they don't.

What do you want to bet that when they see how much their site traffic goes down, they go back to the old method?

Michael

By doing this PalmGear is going to lose the already shaky credibility that thay have with customers, because they are unneccesarily limiting the options of their customers. Are they removing freeware? No, but they are making it much harder to find on their site. I for one am not impressed.

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Sean

It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

I have written programs in the past and have and will continue to give many of them away for free. Why, it's simple, it builds my reputation as a programmer. If it's good software , people will download it. Than if I am creative I will eventually release an updated and more powerful version for a fee. Stop complaining about the Tech market and do your share and write something better, or people will go with the free stuff.

Just cause you can hide it doesn't mean it isn't there and it wont be found.. gosh.. just look at the warez community.

HTH...Boone

Handango doesn't even post new or updated products in a timely manner. There are times when I know when a product was updated on Handango, and it took hours for it to show up as so. And by that time, the product wasn't even listed on the front page anymore.

Let's keep in mind that not all the develoers voted to have freeware removed. I think it was to their advantage to have a lot of people coming to the gear site in search of "Whatever", and not just commercial/shareware products.

Not only are you missing the point, which is that PalmGear is attempting to change market factors out of it's control, but this post makes absolutely no sense in the context of the post you are supposedly rebutting. I suggest you stop blindly criticizing and take a look at the reality.

It is indeed true that freeware authors often become shareware authors. By discriminating against those who write today's free applications, PalmGear (who also doesn't seem to pay their developers), is chasing away future clientelle.

Additionally, if a retail product can't compete with a free equivalent, that doesn't mean PalmGear should try to shove the inferior product in your face. Nobody is saying that we are owed free products, and nobody is saying these authors shouldn't be paid. Quite the contrary, we are saying they had better make a competitive (i.e. better that what's available for free) product if they desire to make money. That's capitalism, my friend, and nobody owes these developers anything, so please stop acting like we do.

Any questions?

_________________
Sean

It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

I hope BUDD does not code the same way he writes. ;)

It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

The whole attraction of PalmGear was that everything was centralized in one place and you could easily keep up to date on the Palm software market.

This is the beginning of the end and it's time for developers to start their own grassroots distribution site. Palm old-timers remember the dozens of Palm software sites over the years that have come and gone and once upon a time, PalmGear was a newcomer too. The community will survive its passing, and it may well be time for a class-action law suit to recoup unpaid developer fees and hasten the end of PalmGear.

This is really sad as I love the Palmgear interface and can't stand using Handango. It takes so much longer to find new and updated software at Handango. But if they're the only ones getting new software listings, then we may not have a choice. I hope Palmgear can hang on, but this is another step in the wrong direction.

I pay for quality software like Wordsmith.

Just because you can crack a program doesn't mean that you should. There's something called ethics.

You don't like the cost of software? Don't buy it! Or, create something on your own to compete with the existing product at a lower cost. Cracking someone else's software and redistributing it - whether or not it's overpriced - is in direct violation of virtually all software licenses, and you deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Gosh, Mr. I.M.,
I need a new car, but they are a little expensive. Could you please steal one for me? And my wife wants a new diamond ring. Could you knock off a jewelry store for me?
Oh, it's different if you have to get up from your computer to commit a crime, eh?

//END SARCASM

Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com

Commercial software developers are there to make money. If they charge it to high and their software is selling badly, the price will be lowered, but by getting warez, you are stealing. Its no different than walking into Walmart, slipping a DVD under your shirt, and walking out, other than the fact it's easier.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

Whoops. UZI4U182 and StormRider.

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www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

Thanks for trying to impose your morality on the rest of the universe. Let's see if it holds up:

Please sort these in order, most moral, to least.

- Priests who take money from the old and poor who 'Need salvation' to buy nice big cars and build expensive churches.
- People who sell drugs to other consenting adults because it's a lucrative business.
- People who sample the candy in the grocery store.
- Police who support a war on drugs because it gets them more tax money for their departments and more salary for themselves. Oh, and let's not forget 'Siezed assets'.
- Someone who woulden't have paid for a piece of software investing dozens of man-hours looking for it in the warez community.
- Large chain stores using their collective mussle to temporarily push their prices below profit level so that they can raise prices after they've driven local business under.
- A small child who stole a piece of candy.
- the RIAA/MPAA.

Thanks for sorting this out for me. I'm so glad your 'morality' works in such a cut-and-dried manner.

Make sure you go out and yell at everybody who falls on the 'worse' side of the warez dooood when you're done.

Anyway, you seem to consent stealing software. Tell me, would you feel right leaving a store with a DVD under your coat?

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www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

I'm pretty sick tonight, and I'm usually not bothered by this stuff. This will be the first time I've ever insulted someone on this site. I've never seen a need to go hard to bat on anything, but you apprently need someone to fill you in.

You're an idiot.

Only an idiot would think that the government could make money on the "War on Drugs." Do you really think the three 8-balls they confiscate will pay the 40k salaries of the 15 guys who raided the dope house and the border patrols that run day and night?
"Priests who take money from the old and poor who 'Need salvation' to buy nice big cars and build expensive churches."
Who.... Where? What the hell are you talking about? Which priest? What town? You have no idea, do you?

"Oh, and let's not forget 'Siezed assets'"

Idiot.

You're a thief.

Only an idiot thief would justify their actions by trying to point the finger at other people doing creepy stuff.
"Someone who wouldn't have paid for a piece of software investing dozens of man-hours looking for it in the warez community."
Community? Is that supposed to make you sound wholesome? Who cares how much time you spent finding what you stole?

You're ignorant.

When you make a copy of the software someone worked hard to make, you didn't buy it. So you DID cost them money; they'd have money if you weren't a thief.

You're a kid.

You write and think like a kid. You're examples of corruption are the worst kind of popular tripe. You've spent no time at all researching any of the examples you've given and you have no idea what you're talking about.

Stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing, how much it costs, how big the company is, whether you need it, or whether you've justified it in your head. If it costs money, and you don't pay, than your a crook. At least admit to it and don't rag someone else about imposing morals; you don't even know what a moral standard is....

-------
This ranting brought to you by a 102-degree fever and the flu. If I seem overly irritated, it's only because I am. I hope I haven't offended anyone.... except the idiot I.M.
Get a screen name.
Idiot.

...In accordance with the prophecy...

Quik_Fix
quikfix@hotmail.com

I included this thread in the first post. Go ahead and discuss or vote about it there, although I warn you won't be able to hide behind I.M. Anonymous...

I hope you don't mind this link Ed, but the purpose is not advertising, I just find PDA Warez discussion interesting.

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Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

As a developer, we need to paid software engineers, customer service representatives, graphic designers. We let customers to get free trial and they can paid us if they think it is worth. If they think it is not worth, then they can remove it without pay for it.

However, we did not make a lot of money for it and it is not easy to get a product success. We believe if we put more effort on improving our products, we will success (get break even).

We are very disappointed with WAREZ and people behind them. Someday, WAREZ will drive us out of market and only large firm like M$ can surive.

If you think a product is not worth for dollars, please write your own version and release them as free software and drive us out of business by market, but not thiefing. We prefer to leave the market by product competition but not thiefing of WAREZ!!

We used to try to selling software with just $1 (we can only 60 cents) but the response is disappointed and we finally increase the price back to 9.95.

In order to avoid cracking, we spend our engineers' time on anti-cracking design. It also increase our cost.

Some of my friend never pay a dollar to software because software does not cost a dollar for copying. However, it is a misunderstand. We DO pay a lot of money on development.

For people advocate WAREZ, please, try to develop a real product and see how much effort and money you need to pay for a product development.

Those developers who think this is immoral or illegal should think very carefully about consumer protection laws, which you break every day with your buggy software.

Consider the scores of Asians who would have been left out of the IT revolution were it not for pirated software. I am not talking of businessmen in pinstriped suits but students and ordinary office workers who can buy cheap PCs made in China but for whom a registered Windows OS is out or reach. Sure, $25 for a good Palm software seems like a reasonable price compared with $299 for Windows XP. But that's a princely sum for those in the Third World who earn only $300 a month or less.

We cannot condone software piracy but we can at least try to understand why it's happening in the first place. Perhaps by doing so, those who develop and market Palmware can find ways to bring down their prices - such as selling directly to customers instead of using agents/re-sellers like Palmgear and Handango.

LEARN, I cannot afford to buy at home all of the M$ rubbish (W2KAdvServer/SQL/EXCHANGE) just for learn and then throw it away, the same for AutoCAD, Photo**** and a large list.

EVALUATION, If the program is not available in any evaluation incarnation I prefer to get it warez, test it and then consider if buy or not.

I don't consider any of those subjects immoral or illegal, some pieces of software are extremely expensive.

But what I never do is to use a warez for my daily work, this is like making money with stolen equipment and thus unacceptable, and for Christ’s sake most of the palm apps have a ridiculous price.

But how many times have you tried shareware for say 3 weeks, but another version comes out with only 1 week left on the trial period? So then you are faced with a choice: shell out $$ hoping that the changes to the new version have not created new bugs, or just delete the thing and look for something else.

How many times do you see version after version of software released within a few, in each case dealing with bugs which should have been ironed out before the public release of the first version? Too many times. I can list some examples if you wish.

Don't even just me started on crippleware ...

Why don't you just remove those software from your PC and Palm?

It is shame to say others' product is bad and then install a private copy in your computer or palm, and tell everyone that the program is useless and you have right to crack it.

The truth is that they do not want to pay for software. They would pay hundreds to buy new Sony NR70 even they have another Palm device which they just bought months ago, but they do not want to pay for "Document T? G?" even they feel it is useful.

Even a program is bug free and cheap, they still complain the program is not good enough while they are running it everyday.

While I condone it, it's up to you to decide what is moral.

It is however, not up to you to decide if something is legal or not.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

There is little market evidence that software is overpriced. Hardware makers, Software makers, resellers like PalmGear are all struggling to survive. The cost of development is expensive, and so the cost of administration to run a website to sell stuff. Companies like Intuit, Aladdin, Learning Company, Sega, can't even afford to participate in the handheld market because the market is too small and the profits are so meager.

All these companies big and small aren't making bad choices.

Stealing software will only drive more good developers out of the handheld market. The big companies will develop for other platforms and the small companies will disappear. All companies have to provide compromised services, because less money is available.

Who wouldn't want $80 dollar software for $10 dollars, but dream on... Most of the dotcom companies who give out more than they take in have gone out of business. Look at all the layoffs in this country and don't only blame the bad management. It is precisely the charlatans who create companies that give out more than they take. The slimebags out-compete the honest guys, because the honest guys can't compete with products priced below market value.

> Only an idiot would think that the government could make money on the "War on Drugs."
The goverment dosen't. The individual police departments DO get larger budgets from it, though. Or do you think voters will support SWAT teams to catch shoplifters?

>> "Priests who take money
> Who.... Where? What the hell are you talking about? Which priest? What town? You have no idea, do you?
All of them - or are you too dense to spot that one, too? Or dosen't that suit fit on your straw-man?

> Only an idiot thief would justify their actions by trying to point the finger at other people doing creepy stuff.
I wasen't justifying anybody's actions, per se. I don't steal palm software, to be honest. Why bother? I get paid more hourly than the trouble is worth. Which was the point of the time comment. I don't xerox books for the same reason.

> You write and think like a kid. You're examples of corruption are the worst kind of popular tripe. You've spent no time at all researching any of the examples you've given and you have no idea what you're talking about.

And you do? I can't tell from your writing. The frequent sprinklings of name calling don't particularly support it, either.

> This ranting brought to you by a 102-degree fever and the flu.

Hope you feel better.

> Get a screen name.
> Idiot.

So, you file your taxes under the name 'QuikFix', then?

And as for "morals", the people who talk about having them are usually the ones with the least idea of what morals actually are (insert priest, politicial, religous fanatics etc hear). I for one am sick and tired of taking it up the ass while companies that scam 2Billion, 4bilion etc dollars will end up with tax write-offs for next year. Overpriced, cableTV, CellPhone plans, ISP accounts its all bull**** being shoved up our collective consumer asses. We are being OVERWORKED, OVERTAXED and nothing more than fuel for the machine. So SCREW THEM ALL and yes I get free DTV, and Cable too.

www.handango.com

By the way. I AM a palm software developer, and I have both "freeware" quickie utilities I've done, and commercial programs as well. PalmGear will not get any of my business as a seller or as a buyer as long as they have effectively banned freeware.

That way, they get most of your money out of it!
Oliver

I don't think shareware is affected by this.

Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com

What would PalmGear do next? Decide software had to have some minimum pricing to be featured?

Or how about: developers charge the 2 cents and then in their "read me" text, explain to customers that they should email palmGear about a fake "problem" with the software they bought and insist on a refund. PalmGear will contact the developer who will, of course, approved the refund. What will that cost PalmGear in time and effort? A lot more than 2 cents.

I'm also a Palm OS software developer. Most of my software are shareware and some are freeware. I hope that folks, after trying out my freeware stuff, would eventually also notice my shareware apps and hopefully would purchase some of my shareware stuff.

It happened once that I have a shareware app then a week after, a similar freeware app came out. At first, I was pissed off but the experience made me improve on my product and I still get software sales. So I don't have a problem with freeware side-to-side with shareware. It gives customers choices.

When Palmgear and Handango decided to increase their commission rates, like other developers, I too looked for alternatives. I end up signing up with Esellerate to process sales on my very own website with only 10% commission.

Now, I need my software to be listed. I signed up with Tucows and Palmvenue, which btw list both freeware and shareware. They don't force me to only list my software exclusively to their site. They basically don't get any cent from me. With Esellerate processing sales and Tucows & Palmvenue listing my software, it's quite a nice setup.

I'm not in anyway affiliated with the above-mentioned sites but I just thought of sharing this information to anyone who is interested. And if we could build-up these small sites then the big ones will have to think before they leap.

James R.

I would have thought you'd be behind this move by Kenny - given that 99% of *your* customers would be commercial/shareware developers. If someone is gonna write freeware, they are highly unlikely to purchase CW for $400.

I'm a shareware developer, and paid the $$'s for CW because it's a great tool. I see value in it.

Why do people think software should be free? Would you (not you Ben, the royal "you") do your job for free? I didn't think so...

I'd like to know how many people register McPhling, as opposed to those who "will do it tomorrow". Also I'm sure Mike has a fulltime job doing something else, and isn't reliant on McPhling to feed his kids... some people out there actually depend on shareware registrations for a living - let them live I say.

The software shouldn't be free. It might be free though... So, why do you want it to be hidder. Are you afraid that a freeware application is better than the app you developed and ask money for?

The software developers who program only for money shouldn;t try to kill the others. Maybe the others program to make their name known, and put in the CV: a developped a freeware application which 10000000 people downloaded...

Money is not everything, although in this world it seems like the general opinion is: "I have money, I could s**t on you now". I hate this...

Makes sense. Business is business.

VersionTracker is an excellent resource for Mac software in that they list virtually every piece of software that is released or updated, including commercial, shareware and freeware. Their Palm section is fairly new and if we give them some support, they could become an excellent source for keeping up to date on ALL Palm software.

Software authors... post your new and updated titles to VersionTracker, or at least send them a note if your software is not listed, and they will track it in the future.

I am not affiliated with VT but I think its an excellent resource that has been overlooked by Palm users.

Ah, get your facts right. This is far far far from the truth. The majority of the "pay" software listed on gear is not exclusive to them. And a large number of their bigger names sell on Gear, Handango, and their own web site. Gear has no issues with that.

"If an author sells his Palm software on his own site or another reseller and not on PalmGear, then they will NOT list it."

I'm an author myself (TapPad, SkinManager), and several months ago TapPad was pulled from the site because I was not selling it through PalmGear, only directly through TapPad.com. I had to allow them to resell TapPad in order to be listed.

Again, my point is PalmGear is not a COMPLETE Palm software directory, as they are biased towards what they sell. If we throw some support towards sites that DO NOT SELL software, like VersionTracker, then they CAN be a more complete Palm software listing site.

Freeware helps Mr. West bring traffic to his site. But not letting people buy your shareware through his site is not right. If you don't like the amount he takes as a cut, don't list it there in the first place.

(But thanks for the tip. Tappad is really great, and my 30 day trial just expired, so I need to go pay for it. At least I know I won't find it at PG, which, according to the latest update, is treating freeware fairly again and is therefore worth returning to.)

So developers, send them your software title submissions if you're not already listed. They're perhaps the best site on the internet at tracking new and updated software. You can't buy from them, but they link to the download and the site where you can buy.

OrionNE

If you don't like the way Palmgear does its business, then you should visit one of those other sites that only list freeware. BTW, I don't use any freeware programs since I can find shareware or commercialware that's so much better than freeware anyway.

And by the way, you shouldn't say that about the Kenny West. Business is about money, and Kenny West figures this way he will make more, and possibly save his company.

___________________________________
www.pdaavenue.com

Marcus Bankuti
marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

Of course everyone wants compensation, but only those that do good work should get it. Of course, everyone "thinks" that their work is good, but it is up to those that compensate to determine that. Notice that most people (even those that use freeware) have no problem paying for high-quality software such as wordsmith or datebook5.

"And by the way, you shouldn't say that about the Kenny West. Business is about money, and Kenny West figures this way he will make more, and possibly save his company."

And the point is that this is a retarded business decision. How is he going to save the company by reducing traffic and alienating freeware authors and hardcore users? Any personal feelings aside, it just isn't the right decision.

Wow, how profound! He only pays for things that he thinks are worth it. What the **** do you think the rest of us do? Buy every one of the 18,000 Palm apps available?

One last time...if you don't like the product, don't buy it and don't use it. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to buy HandCrap 2.7.

Now, Kenny should keep freeware listed to avoid boycotts and unsatisfied customers who visit for all their Palm OS software needs, including freeware and shareware. This is just a desperate attempt to hide clones, free alternatives etc. to boost sales. In the end though, I think that they will just end up reversing this after hearing all the negative feedback, and seeing their sales actually decrease.

www.pdaavenue.com

marcusbankuti@pdaavenue.com

"Profanity or flaming of a developer, application or PalmGear.com will not be tolerated!"
Profanity should obviously be there. Flaming is not the same as criticism.

"DO NOT use the review area to direct readers to other software products or offsite url's"
This is complete understandable

"Reviews are Approved Periodically"
Approved so that they can filter out reviews that violate these rules -- this is a GOOD aspect.

"PalmGear.com reserves the right to accept or decline any and all reviews added at the sole discretion of PalmGear.com"
This doesn't say 'if the review is negative' or anything. This is to avoid any hassles someone might give them about declining their review (eg nonsense reviews or something)

I see plenty of bad reviews for software on palmgear. You're not making sense?

On the other hand Kenny West has always been an amazingly hands-on chief exec, even writing users directly and solving their complaints promptly. I've had a couple email exchanges with him over the years and been very impressed with KW.

Finally, let's all re-read KW's direct response above: Freeware is NOT disappearing from PG, just being deemphasized. Not too honorable, but understandable in view of PG's money problems.

I don't imagine it is "huckstering" as opposed to blocking spam. With no policy in place, what is to stop X developer from putting in links to his own product's website? It could be totally irrelevant to the current product, totally crappy, or not even Palm related. Hell, without the policy what is to stop someone from advertising their porn site in a review? I don't think the policy is there with the intention of keeping users from recommending alternatives.