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Comments on: Rumor: Details on Upcoming Sony Handheld (Updated)

Julie from The Gadgeteer quotes a 'reliable source' with some details on a upcoming device from Sony. According to this source, it will have a 206 MHz StrongARM processor from Intel, which means, of course, that it will have to run Palm OS 5. It will have a clamshell shape, though Julie says she's not sure if it is the same design as the NR series. Like the NR70V it will have a built-in camera, though this one will be able to do video capture, not just take still images.

Update: This rumor is a bit suspect because, according to a someone high up at PalmSource, Intel's StrongARM family isn't part of the Palm OS Ready Program, only its XScale family.

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PRICE?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:03:35 AM #
Will this thing cost $800 when it comes out?
RE: PRICE?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:18:55 AM #
It can't possibly cost less than the NR70V, so I'd say about $600.
RE: PRICE?
Memling @ 8/7/2002 11:33:59 AM #
It had better not cost more than a 206Mhz PPC or Sony will get worked. Sure throw in the camera, but lose wireless means the price should still be about the current non-XScale PPC's ($500-$650). Just because Sony could price their Dragonball products more, doesn't mean they will survive once they are on "equal" ground with PPC.

Hans.

cool, but i wouldn't buy it

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:02:59 AM #
I don't need a camera and don't like the idea of two types of expansion.

I'll take a T with 66mhz, virtual grafiti, and built in bluetooth though.

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:09:03 AM #
What do you need to record tiny, low-res vidoes for? Seems like a waste of $$$. And why would you want to use a Memory Stick in your PDA, a CF card in your digital camera and an SD card in a voice recorder? It seems like a really silly idea to be able to play full screen flash movies, when you don't have a wireless network connection (but I guess that'd be resolved with a CF WiFi card). It sounds like one expensive toy. I think Sony has ravaged the Zen of Palm and left it for dead.
RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:12:10 AM #
Why dont you like the idea of two types of expansion? I highly doubt they increased the form factor over the size of the NRV to add compactflash.
with the addition of the compact flash expansion slot you are no longer tied to the limited number of expensive Memorystick expansion options available. The CF slot will more than make up for th elack of any wireless by allowing the consumer to choose a wireless system from those availabel in CF format (ie: all of them). Personaly it has been one of my gripes about laptop and handhelds being released here in the states compared to the UK that we never get a choice and almost always get stuck with 802.11b which is all well and good if your company has a Wifi network, or you are constantly at airports or coffee shops with Wifi hotspots, but in general For consumer users I think Bluetooth is much more convient and compelling. Simply being able to use your bluetooth enabled phone (which there are a number of now in a range of prices) as a modem to check email or send a few instant messages on your palm is the ideal solution for me and lots of other personal users.

In any case as usual sony inovates and everybody else will attempt to follow if they are smart at all. I understand a Palm devotees love of simplicity sony is constantly pushing the envelope and once most users see wat sony is offering compared to how little palm offers they very well may switch. Unfortunatly personal sales dont matter nearly as much as corporate sales and palm has that arena pretty well locked up, so i dont see them going aout of business netime soon. hopefully they can start makin cooler devices though

-Bobby Digital
::End Rant

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
nategall @ 8/7/2002 9:12:31 AM #
gee, can you list other things that you don't want? I am really interested. Don't worry, sony will have a bunch of stripped down versions for you, and then you can post a two line thing of why you don't like them.

Thanks Sony, thanks palm, thanks Handera, thanks Handspring, give me more options! Long live choices. Long live PalmInfoCenter!

nategall says "blah!"

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:12:35 AM #
You can bet it's not expansion the way we're used to understanding it. Remember, Sony makes MemoryStick.

They won't go usurping their own market before the device hits the streets, and this is exactly why they don't allow memory cards to be used in the devices. You can bet they did the same with CF cameras and Bluetooth devices, since Sony also makes those in MemoryStick versions. Expect to see more "orhpaning" of CF/SD/MMC devices as Sony comes out with their own versions.

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:15:45 AM #
I think Sony has ravaged the Zen of Palm and left it for dead.
There's a reason the earlier Sony devices were called PEG devices. They are not PDAs, they are not PIMs, they are Entertainment devices, meant for media in all forms; music, video, audio (something Sony believes they excel at). Palm handheld devices for them are a way for them to sell more "media solutions" to a larger audience (while at the same time, restricting their ability to use it, i.e. proprietary formats, DRM, and being the largest financial backer of the RIAA).

Sony screwed up too many times while designing their earlier PDAs, and they've learned to stay away from the PDA market, and focus on the "gadget" market (mp3 player, walkman, "flash movies").

I'll bet they screw it up like they always have..
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:22:10 AM #
Who is willing to bet that Sony screws this one up like they've done to 4 of their previous devices? I'm not talking about features, color, size, shape, or design. I'm talking about functionality under the hood.

When they released the PEG-S300, the first "true" USB device to hit the market (Handspring was and is still serial) they mangled the Handspring HotSync protocol and made it incompatible with Palm's HotSync version (recall "USB PDA Switcher" that was required?) We know this because we write Linux tools that work with Palm devices (without any help or documentation, I might add)

They fixed that by the time their second device came around, and had a couple of good, working USB devices, then came out with another version which claimed to have the same product_id in the USB media descriptor as one of their previous devices, but used a different USB port internally, so you couldn't tell which protocol was needed for which device (programatically, some used USB0, some used USB1)

Then they release yet another couple of versions, and then one device appears claiming to have 3 USB ports instead of the normal 2 (yes, all USB palm devices have two USB ports).

And I'll bet when this OS5 device comes out, it'll be nice and shiny, light, fast, colored, and come complete with a completely different incompatible USB connector type, broken protocol, and riddled with DRM components everywhere, locking you into Sony-only solutions.

No thanks, not for me.

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:23:25 AM #
> I don't need a camera

I don't either. Hope there will be a $500 version without the camera and a $600 one with it. Wish I knew how well the NR70 is selling compared to the NR70V. If the one with a camera is way outselling the one without, there may only be a camera one.

Sony finally has a FERRARI Engine to work with now
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:40:30 AM #
The beauty is that SONY finally has a FERRARI (ARM) engine and 94 Octane (OS5) to work with! Before they were crippled by Dragonball and OS4 and still did amazing things!

My hats are off to Sony, love 'em or hate 'em - they know how to push the envelope!

Sony is pushing something, but it's not the envelope..
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:13:20 AM #
My hats are off to Sony, love 'em or hate 'em - they know how to push the envelope!

Yes, and how to piss off developers.
RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
Phil @ 8/7/2002 11:05:43 AM #
Sony, if you read this:

Seems like I´m not the only one who just want´s

* T626c form factor
* Virtual Graffiti (HighRes+)
* Build in Bluetooth
* Up n´ down key like the NR70 or Palm M515
* Voice Recorder (?)
* Anhanced Sound (like T-Series)

Is that really too much to ask for???

Come on, you can do it. And a lot of people are looking forward to it.

Phil

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:33:03 PM #
Did somebody mention Ferrari here?

Parrot had the privilege of being invited by Ferrari at their factory to install their CK3000 Bluetooth car kit for Jean Todt, Team Principal of the Ferrari F1 Team.

Jean Todt has lately set up his new highly mobile office. A Ferrari Maranello 575 that was fitted with additional high-performance equipment: Harman Becker navigation system, Bose Audio system, and a Parrot CK3000 Bluetooth car kit.

The CK3000 allows Jean Todt to place his calls by pressing one button and speaking any of his phonebook's names. Incoming calls are accepted pressing on a second button.

During calls, the audio system is automatically turned off, and the conversation is routed to the speakers.

The phone stays inside the pocket all the while: the pairing and exchanges between the phone and the car kit is fully wireless using Bluetooth.

Parrot CK3000 installation at Ferrari.

Installation was carried out at the factory. The Bluetooth car kit only requires connecting the CK3000 unit to 12V supply, to the mike, and to the place-call and hang-up buttons. The mute cable intercepts the audio wiring between the radio and the loudspeakers.

http://www.say-parrot.com/parrot/uk/ck3000_eng.htm

Handspring = serial port? Please clarify!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:23:45 PM #
Someone posted tests a while back comparing Visor sync speeds on USB vs. serial cradles, and the USB one was ~4x the speed of the serial. If you're claiming that's a "jerry-rigged serial port" rather than a USB one (with serial adapters built into serial cradles), what can you show to back that up?
RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:04:56 PM #
Someone posted tests a while back comparing Visor sync speeds on USB vs. serial cradles, and the USB one was ~4x the speed of the serial.

It is 4x the speed because it's a "wider" port to send the serial protocol over. Look closely at the underlying protocol, it's still serial, even if it goes over a connector that connects through a USB hardware device.

If you're claiming that's a "jerry-rigged serial port" rather than a USB one (with serial adapters built into serial cradles), what can you show to back that up?

Again, look at the protocol behind it. It's serial. Look at the drivers which support it, also serial. This is not a USB protocol, and there is not a single PalmOS© PDA in existance that uses USB natively. They're all serial, transmitting their communications over a USB hardware port.

Not that I'm complaining, it makes it easy to interface with external, third-party serial devices with a small change in pinouts on the connector type.

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 6:44:13 PM #
USB is a serial protocol. It uses two pins for a differential serial signal, and two pins for power and ground. It's not wider by any stretch of the imagination, it's just faster (like comparing ultra160 scsi to ultra320, they both have the same bus width, but one is just on faster hardware). This is why porting a serial device to USB is so easy.
RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:18:46 PM #
"USB is a serial protocol. It uses two pins for a differential serial signal, and two pins for power and ground....... This is why porting a serial device to USB is so easy."

I've been wondering this for a while. Why do so many device makers still make serial connections if USB is so easy to port? I guess another question is why isn't there a native USB driver for hotsyncing. Wouldn't that greatly speed things up with little effort on Palm's part?

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 9:36:07 AM #
Only fools do not buy Sony PDA's, period.
RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
MacPrince @ 8/8/2002 7:02:08 PM #
Only fools would claim any one device manufacturer is the ultimate and is perfect for everyone. And do so from an anonymous account out of cowardice.

Period.

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
useybird @ 8/8/2002 10:34:26 PM #
Sony offering a CF slot is like Handspring not offering any expansion on the Treos. If you can't use memory(in which CF comes in higher capacities over 128MB) and you can't use a CF Bluetooth or Wifi, what can you use? Sony is better off leaving out the CF Slot.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: cool, but i wouldn't buy it
TDS Computer @ 8/10/2002 12:30:43 PM #
Pertaining to the Handspring/USB comments above. Think about what USB stands for "Universal Serial Bus" - Of course it is serial. Hence the name.

Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com

I hope my patience will be rewarded....

Isaiahp @ 8/7/2002 9:03:40 AM #
I have been holding off on replacing my VIIx for a while now. I keep hoping that OS5 and the new faster Palms will blow me away. If this is basically the NRV series with a faster processor, I will drop my dough post haste!

I wonder if it will run Pocket PC 2002?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:28:39 PM #
Gee, I wonder if this is Sony's attempt to enter the PPC camp? Wouldn't this be great?! A sleek design by Sony, with the stablility and ease of use of PPC OS? Something to think about...
RE: I hope my patience will be rewarded....
LarryGarfield @ 8/7/2002 1:49:25 PM #
...with the stablility and ease of use of PPC OS

Um, what? Stability and ease of use of PPC? Sorry, even in PPC 2002 the PocketPC is generations behind the Palm III in terms of end-user usability. It leads in wiz-bang features, perhaps, but the interface is still bass-ackwards. As for stability, I've seen more MS salesment reset PPCs to fix crashes than anyone else. :-)

What Sony is gunning for is the *features* of a PPC with the stability and ease of use (I hope!) of Palm OS.

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

OSLO KILLER

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:14:15 AM #
This thing sounds sweet. If they can price it right, it will kill that Frankenstein-looking OSLO.
RE: Oslo's Best Friend
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:19:54 AM #
Yes, just like the N710C killed the m505 and the NR70V killed the m515. Wait, that didn't happen, did it?

The sounds like a cool PDA but it is going to be about twice the size of the Oslo and cost $150 -- $200 more. Both will appeal to different people and both will sell well.

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:29:37 AM #
If Sony sold their PDA's in Office supply stores too, I think they would be gaining even more market share.
RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:05:54 PM #
"This thing sounds sweet. If they can price it right, it will kill that Frankenstein-looking OSLO."

I'm starting to think Sony becoming a licensee was one of the worst things to happen to the PalmOS community. Sure they bring increased market share, but is that a desirable chunk of the market?

Sort of like the average AOL user. How many support staffers groan when they see them coming...

Perhaps parts of the market don't *have* to be brought into the fold...

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:14:22 PM #
"Perhaps parts of the market don't *have* to be brought into the fold..."

That was probably one of the most arrogant, elitist statements I ever read here at PIC. Hey "know it all" - you're not half as smart as you think you are.

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 2:22:13 PM #
"Perhaps parts of the market don't *have* to be brought into the fold..."

so you must be one of those smart palm Users that didn't buy a Clie, are you assuming all ppl who bought the Clie are like morons or something ??

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 2:47:34 PM #
> I'm starting to think Sony becoming a licensee was one of the worst things to happen to the PalmOS community.

You must be a Machead.
You sound like Steve Jobs who commenced to destroy all of the cloners.

I'm all for Sony. It keeps Palm honest by showing the company what you can do with the technology. And it's a win for the consumer because it gives us choice, but it sounds like you're in the zone of Jobs' reality distortion field and alternative lifestyle. You don't believe in choice. You only believe in mandated products with incremental changes at maximum premium prices.

Thank the gods for Sony. Keep it up Sony!!!

RE: OSLO KILLER
abosco @ 8/7/2002 2:53:36 PM #
I agree with you that Palm does overcharge on their products but you do get good tech support (most of the time) that comes with the product. However, I do have a problem with this statement:

"You only believe in mandated products with incremental changes at maximum premium prices."

Maximum premuim prices? Umm, excuse me but what is the most expensive Palm OS unit ever? The NR70v which is made by who? SONY!

I understand that Sony does a good job at keeping their prices down in the mid range and low end markets but in the high range, they are pricier than a PPC. Don't you think $600 is a bit much? This rumored new model will likely cost more than that too.

----------
Well FINE! Be that way!
Excuse me while I go pout and cry in the corner...

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:03:32 PM #
If this thing lacks wireless (like the rumors say), I am sooo going with OSLO! Sony needs to support wireless!!
RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:20:58 PM #
"...are you assuming all ppl who bought the Clie are like morons or something ??"

I let the statistical sampling posting here speak for themselves...

So no, not all. Just apparently a wide cross-section of those in this neighborhood of the online community. One can only *hope* it's not a representative sample.

Enough with the Yahoo, kiddy'up Sony fluff. Let each product stand on it's own merits without artificial fluffing and drive-by competition smearing.

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:29:36 PM #
That's exactly what the rumored CF slot would be FOR. Optional wireless. Keep the price down, and let those who want it add a $99 802.11b card, or a CF bluetooth card. That's BETTER than having a PDA manufacturer make your wireless choice for you (by building it in).


RE: OSLO KILLER
abosco @ 8/7/2002 3:35:47 PM #
Why take up the CF slot with a bluetooth card when it can be incorporated in a device for an extra $10? And I mean't wireless as in things like Palm.net or your own ISP that you can dial out through an add-on modem or built in radio. Something that you can go on the internet without a phone while in a car.

The Oslo has a better edge on wireless. They incorporated bluetooth and they still have an sd slot and the universal connector to connect to a modem which already exists because of the UC. Palm is starting to make some smarter moves while Sony is becoming a little more iffy. Wireless is becoming a major part in buying a handheld, and those pdas that have to use extra cards and slots and cables are at a disadvantage.

----------
Well FINE! Be that way!
Excuse me while I go pout and cry in the corner...

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 7:22:40 PM #
If they want to throw in BT a little to no extra cost, fine. But that doesn't help if that's not your chosen wireless solution. By providing a slot for option accessories, in addition to the one for RAM expansion, the wireless world is your oyster (in whatever direction it develops).

Today I can use 802.11b at home, the office, in public hotspots such as airports, hotels, cafes, and grassroots public networks. Even the telcos and ISP's have been making noises in the media about teaming up to supplement 3G data with 802.11b coverage. For that sort of connectivity (better than CDPD, cellular circuit switched data, ricochet or whatever), a slot to accept 802.11b today and 802.11[x,y, or z] tomorrow, seems more helpful.

And there's nothing special about the UC and wireless modems. Any PalmOS device can currently connect to a cellphone or similar device for wireless data via a cable.

Wireless expansion options: a scenario
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 8:01:27 PM #
Maybe [_probably_ IMNSHO] this rumor has some mistakes [or is full of them].

I doubt that the next Clie will have CF built-in, primarily because it takes up too much room, but partly for another reason.

Imagine for a moment that Sony's next high-end device does have dual slots - BOTH of them Memory Stick (MS). Or more likely, one regular MS and one of the miniature "Duo" MS memory cards.

Users could then buy the Sony InfoStick (MS Bluetooth), the MS camera, MS GPS, etc. to upgrade their devices Hmmm.

I *hope* that isn't the direction they're going, and that the new high-end Clie will integrate Bt, but I can see how the "Dual-stick" business model might be appealing to Sony (and to any other company considering making a Memory Stick peripheral).

For WiFi, Sony might release the existing CF-sleds (available in Japan) and use OS5's built-in 802.11b support. Because the sled has an integrated auxilliary battery, it would be a practical (but expensive?) upgrade for those who want it.

RE: OSLO KILLER
abosco @ 8/8/2002 3:31:31 AM #
"And there's nothing special about the UC and wireless modems. Any PalmOS device can currently connect to a cellphone or similar device for wireless data via a cable."

The special thing about the UC is that it is being used by all of the recent Palm pdas, making all peripherals for that connector work with all of those Palms. That is a great idea, which they are using to their advantage, as Sony is a bit slow on the accessories for the t series connector. That's one area where Palm has a considerable lead and they are exploiting it... good for them.

And what if you don't have a cell phone with wireless internet capabilities? What if you don't have a cable to hook it up? The wireless modem for the UC solves that. There is even a bluetooth sled available for it if you don't want to use the sd slot on the m500 series.

___________________
I'm the ears of PIC

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 3:28:46 PM #
"I *hope* that isn't the direction they're going, and that the new high-end Clie will integrate Bt, but I can see how the "Dual-stick" business model might be appealing to Sony"

It's certainly more what I would expect of them. If you make a device that accepts only your own media, how can you improve on that more than making a device that accepts *two* of your own media.

The more memory stick sales the merrier, or so the jingle will go.

RE: OSLO KILLER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 3:32:51 PM #
All the recent "Palm" PDA's yes. But that's no more spectacular than most all Visor models sharing the same connector, or all HandEra models (and prototypes) sharing the same connector, or all Symbol models sharing the same connector. Slapping a techie label on what most would consider common sense and hyping it as a "feature" shouldn't excite.

Palm is a licensee just like the rest. With the appropriate hotsync cable and a null modem adaptor, you can connect to *any* modem or data enabled cellular handset.

The Universal connector is universal only to Palm Inc., and even then not universally. Thus far, just marketing spin. Like their dual-expansion ditty.

RE: OSLO KILLER
useybird @ 8/8/2002 10:48:15 PM #
"I agree with you that Palm does overcharge"

Where else can you find a cheap color handheld with memory expansion? Nowhere but palm. The M130 is the cheapest color handheld that is still made. Show me a cheaper color handheld with SD expansion and we'll talk.

BTW The HandEra uses Palm III accessories. And while Sony has it's memory stick and Japan-only accesories, Palm has the biggest range of First- and Third-party accessories available.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: OSLO KILLER
abosco @ 8/8/2002 11:50:46 PM #
I like the m130 too, but did you ever hear of the Sony T615c? $300 and you get high resolution, memory stick expansion, and a PROVEN 16 bit color screen. Now I'm not about to get into the debate about the m130 being 16 bit or 12 bit here (no, I did plenty of that on the forums), but the T615c screen looks incredible. And for only $50 more than the m130, it's a no brainer. I like the m130 too, but there is not one feature on the m130 that the T615c doesn't have except the PALM logo.

_______________________________________
So how's that nice girlfriend of yours?
Oh she got hit by a car, she's dead.
RE: OSLO KILLER
useybird @ 8/10/2002 12:16:53 AM #
Yeah that's still $50 more for people who already have a hard time affording the M130 at my $240 price (Best Buy employee discount in April) plus the m130 is more durable and has accessories actually available in the USA. Plus Even if I were to get a T615c it would be obsolete now. BTW, when I got my M130, the T615c costed about $400.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: OSLO KILLER
abosco @ 8/10/2002 12:29:38 AM #
I'm not ratting on the m130, but if you compare the m130 to the t615c then you can see that the m130 is not as good in technology as the t615 is. The screen makes all that much of a difference. If I were to choose between the T615c and the m130 and I only had $250, then I would work as hard as I possibly could to get the extra $50 to buy the Sony! Or I could just go to ebay and buy one incredibly cheap from there. Either way is good. But if you see some extra feature on the m130 that you don't on the t615c then fine, buy it.

I am a Palm zealot, but I understand the limitations to my zeal. I see no reason to get the m130 over the t615 except for the fact that you can't scrape up an extra $50 any possible way.

And the clie line is very durable, too.

_______________________________________
So how's that nice girlfriend of yours?
Oh she got hit by a car, she's dead.

woo hoo!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:43:01 AM #
this means i can buy the NR70 for $399 or less!
RE: woo hoo!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:51:18 AM #
The NR70 will be discontinued before then, so get one while you can.

non-memory CF

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:46:59 AM #
If Sony tries to sell non-functional crap like a non-memory CF slot implementation in the US, they'll probably get beaten over the head with returns and likely lawsuits from angry customers and retail outlets.
RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:01:54 AM #
If the packaging clearly says "Works only for non-memory Compact Flash cards" then those lawsuits would be laughed out of court. If what you are saying is true, you could sue HandEra because the 330 doesn't work with every single CF card available on the market.

I wish more Palm OS licencees would use CF but I don't think this plan from Sony (IF it is a real) is very good. I like the HandEra way of having two fully functional slots. If that's too much, use CF instead of SD. I know Sony would never give up its Memory Sticks, though.

RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:10:43 AM #
Yeah,

Sony and their arrogance. If the CF slot was not limited to I/O think of the greater appeal of this device. The whole concept of having a CF slot and then not being able to view photos from my digicam's CF card is just absurd. What is Sony thinking? The bottom line on what Sony is telling you is unless you have a CF non-memory peripheral installed all the time, your PDA is twice as thick as it would have to be due to the extra worthless piece of crap CF slot.

How many people won't buy this device just for this one fact? Stupid.

Sue their *sses!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:16:11 AM #
Hey buddy, why don't you go ahead and sue Sony, PalmInfocenter, and The Gadgeteer for the emotional stress caused by the rumor that non-memory CF might be in this new PDA?
RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:58:31 AM #
> If the packaging clearly says "Works only for non-memory Compact
> Flash cards" then those lawsuits would be laughed out of court.

My intent when I made my original post was not to dwell on the legal implications of this (only that it would not go over well with consumers), but...

Sony would have to do much, much more than just put "Works only for non-memory Compact Flash cards" on the packaging. Most people don't even see the packaging until after they buy a PDA. 99.999% of CF card use is for memory cards, 99.9% of people probably don't even know CF is for anything but memory cards, and every other PDA device out there with CF supports CF memory cards. There is no way Sony could sell such a device without putting a "* non-memory cards only" notation on every mention of Compact Flash in every ad and brochure.

RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:48:33 AM #
They could just call it an expansion module slot or something. They'll just claim they never called it a cf slot so it can't run everything; it just happens to look like a cf slot.
RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:37:06 PM #
It seems a Non-Memory based CF slot would be aimed at the users of Springboards. If Handspring walks away from Expansion concepts it would make sense for someone to step up to the plate. (Dumping Graffiti along the way.)

WiFi, extra memory, and a Keyboard what a concept. :-)

This device will have me considering an update to my Prism.

RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:07:21 PM #
Don't you folks get it? This slot is for Wi-fi compact flash card. Sony is getting ready to compete with other 802.11 PDA's. This is a God send!
RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:20:45 PM #
>The whole concept of having a CF slot and then not
>being able to view photos from my digicam's CF card
>is just absurd. What is Sony thinking?

Sony is thinking "let's sell more memory stick and cover our R&D cost". Sounds very logical, but whether the market accepts it is another story.

Let's see:
Sony releases a device with built-in camera, mp3 player, keyboard, built-in bluetooth & 802.11b.

PIC posters protest, "I don't need camera, keyborad, mp3 player, bluetooth, and 802.11b, just give me a simple PDA with a long battery life".

Sony releases a device without anything thing built-in, but a non-I/O CF-slot to let user plug in whatever they want.

PIC posters protest, "why wireless is not built-in? Why do I need to spend extra $$ to buy a keyboard, camera, and mp3 player? They used up my only expansion slot!"

You got the idea.

It's about choice, if you don't like it, don't buy it!

RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 5:19:21 PM #
Amen.
That is the best comment YET.
RE: non-memory CF
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 4:22:13 PM #
PIC posters are going to bitch no matter WHAT comes out.

PIC news: "Next Sony rumored to include kitchen sink."
First comment: "Who the he** needs a kithcen sink?"
Second comment: "A kitchen sink is nowhere near deep enough. I need a sink like they have in a janitor's closet."
Third comment: "Why must Sony insist on those damn proprietary sinks instead of using open-source toilets?"
Fourth comment: "Too little, too late. The Newton had a kitchen sink years ago."
Fifth comment: "Let's hope they fix the knobs this time, 'cause the bathroom sink was HORRIBLE."
Sixth comment: "Once again Sony gives its users the finger by making the last model, which only included a simple faucet, obsolete."

There's no pleasing some people. Honestly, reading some of this crap makes me want to go back to a Pilot 1000 and just convince myself there's nothing newer.

RE: non-memory CF
michaelfurman @ 8/8/2002 4:37:04 PM #
I'm a Prism user. Had it since Feb'01. I like it. I collect stuff and the cf card slot would be nice. I would have gone with Handera if the color was there. I'm tired of the Batman utility belt of cell phone, voce recorder, pda, camera, laser blaster. Instead of all us techy nerds getting bitchy because a new and different product is coming out, lets just smile and be happy we have a choice. If you don't like it ... then save you $ for curtain number two. I like the ability to use CF cards. There's plenty out there and getting stuck (like with springboard) blows. I'd like to choose what I add. Modem, Wi-Fi. I get to choose ... and so do you.
So pick the PDA you want and move on.

-Myk-

RE: non-memory CF
useybird @ 8/8/2002 10:58:30 PM #
Isn't compactflash supposed to be a standard. Well, it seems that Sony is making that standard proprietary.

To Myk: They make a Springboard adapter for CF cards. Not sure if it supports I/O, though.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: non-memory CF
michaelfurman @ 8/9/2002 11:27:11 AM #
Yep, knew that. But for about a year now I have figured springboard wouldn't work better than CF, and the slot is bigger. So I'm in crouching position now until the "right" pda comes along. I've got loads of cf cards lying about. If SONY does come out with a cf card slotted pda, It'd be a + rather than a minus.
Yeah I'd like so see a standard. The memory stick standard would be nice. Even the sd card would be cool, if everyone would stick with it.

-myk-

Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:30:42 AM #
It's the sound of all high-end Sony PDA purchases grinding to a halt! I was thinking of getting the one, however, the new processor horsepower, alone, will make waiting worthwhile. The Dragonball really is too slow to make good use of hi-res graphics and high-capacity memory cards.
RE: Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:58:49 AM #
"The Dragonball really is too slow to make good use of hi-res graphics and high-capacity memory cards."

?? Obviously never seen a 1GB Microdrive used on a 16.5Mhz TrgPro with CardPro.

And AFAIK there's been some *very* impressive graphics and video done with 3rd party software on the NR70. With results and FR rivaling 206Mhz PocketPC's.

I'm not saying that ARM isn't welcome, but now that ARM is here, let's not pretend Dragonball doesn't have it's place, and hasn't fought the good fight.

Sure there's things you can't really do on 33/66Mhz Dragonball's but the two you mentioned aren't at the top of the list.

RE: Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)
Altema @ 8/7/2002 1:03:30 PM #
"I'm not saying that ARM isn't welcome, but now that ARM is here, let's not pretend Dragonball doesn't have it's place, and hasn't fought the good fight."

Very good point, the Dragonball has carried us a long way. Let's not be so quick to slam what brought us here.

RE: Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:55:19 PM #
"?? Obviously never seen a 1GB Microdrive used on a 16.5Mhz TrgPro with CardPro."

You are correct. I have never seen this. Nobody I know uses this kind of Frankenstein P.O.S. I'm sure it does amazing hi-res graphics, though.

RE: Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:34:42 PM #
"Cleverness" only a mother could love. His response to a point refuted with fact, is to call a device ugly, and admit none of his friends can discern the value in useful practical engineering either.

And there we have our all-american Clie user. Don't 'cha luv 'em.

RE: Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 4:35:55 AM #
Yes...1gb microdrive. So we can enjoy all 10 minutes of battery life. Sounds like pure sony innoventions over here. Pile on features, charge the hell out of it. 3 months make a cheapo version. Then in another 3 months add more features and make all your customers feel ripped off.

Note to sony R&D: Make better buttons. The camera was asinine considering you can't even get good button placement.

RE: Screeeech!!!!! (What was that?)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 4:36:04 PM #
>> Yes...1gb microdrive. So we can enjoy all 10 minutes of battery life. <<

Read the post. He's talking about a TRG Pro, which works very well with it and doesn't drain the battery.

As for the initial post, y'know, I can watch videos on Kinoma, in landscape, on my NR70 and they look WAY better than anything PPC's put on the ARM processor with Media Player. It's amazing, too, because the sound actually MATCHES the video, which is something PPC's don't appear to do well.

Just remember, processor speed has diminishing returns. Remember when Handspring (yes, Handspring) introduced 33mhz? It's not actually twice as fast as 16--they even admitted it was only about 50% faster. 206mhz won't be as much faster than 66mhz as it should appear, 400mhz isn't that much faster than 206 (just ask anyone who was sucker enough to buy the latest iPaq), and so on.

No built-in wireless?????

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:02:46 AM #
Has to be a low end model.

"This rumored new model from Sony does not have any built-in wireless networking capabilities, neither Bluetooth nor Wi-Fi."

That's very weird.

1. Wireless is the FUTURE.
2. With Sony teaming up with Ericsson (SonyEricsson; Bluetooth is a Ericsson invention) they have first-access to BLUETOOTH????

Palm OS 5 chips
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=36592

;o)

RE: No built-in wireless?????
digilaw @ 8/7/2002 11:42:10 AM #
Agreed. The rumor must be wrong on this point. Sony has continually tried to "one-up" the competition on their high-end handhelds; meaning that they have all the features of their cpmpetition plus something extra. First memory stick expansion, then high-res screen and so forth. With semi solid rumors that Oslo will come with bluetooth embedded it seems unlikely that Sony won't try and one-up again. However the inclusion of the CF slot worries me. Its possible they intend one to get a CF bluetooth card instead.

RE: No built-in wireless?????
Rhauer @ 8/7/2002 12:00:46 PM #
I couldn't agree more. I have a 760 now and love it, however if I am going to upgrade it must have wireless. Could anybody explain why we always hear about Bluetooth and 802.11. My understanding is that these products provide limited range to a near by server. How does that help when I travel. Why don't we ever here about the technology in the Palm 705? What is the technology. If Palm comes out with a color 705 w/MP 3 I'm going back. Come-on Sony gives us some wireless capabilities.

Wireless is the FUTURE.
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:00:52 PM #
"Wireless is the FUTURE."

Great. What's the present, though? I use a PDA for about 12 to 18 months before I upgrade. I need the present. What, exactly, would the average user use wireless on their PDA for today?

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:12:40 PM #
I would love the use my T68i with built-in bluetooth to browse the web and when using caller id, check against my palm database.

It would be great if I could accept all vCards while networking and then pick and choose the next day which ones I want to keep.

Oh and that thing I do about twice a day call syncing. It would be nice to get rid of extra cables.

So, this is the present and I want it now.

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:19:03 PM #
MYLO
RE: No built-in wireless?????
Rhauer @ 8/7/2002 12:31:26 PM #
Mylo - That would be a consideration if the modem was made to fit one of the CURRENT models. The 760 which has been already discontinued could never access Mylo. Sony has never made Mylo a real option.

The Wireless Present for Us Regular Folks
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:34:06 PM #
"I would love the use my T68i with built-in bluetooth to browse the web and when using caller id, check against my palm database."

You really want to surf from a 3.5" screen? Really? Isn't your PC at least as close as your bluetooth terminal? Caller ID - hmm, okay, sure, I guess. But how valuable is that? And I'm not sure this is a phone unit here.

"It would be great if I could accept all vCards while networking and then pick and choose the next day which ones I want to keep."

Do you get a lot of "vCards while networking?" I don't. In fact, I've never actually figured out what vCards are. (Remember, the poster was asking what ORDINARY users would do with wireless today.)

"Oh and that thing I do about twice a day call syncing. It would be nice to get rid of extra cables."

Syncing over a Bluetooth connection is that much easier than dropping it in the cradle? Hey, it isn't like you can drive away while you're syncing, and you can't use your Palm for anything else then either.

"So, this is the present and I want it now."

The extra bucks are probably worth it if you really, but presuming to speak for us regular folks, I agree with the first poster - I want a PDA that's easier to use BEFORE it adds more features. For me, that really just means easier to read (HiRes+ screen - and yes, you need to use the font fix, but hey, that's free) and easy to carry (T-series form factor).

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:35:56 PM #
"I need the present."

You take the present with ya to go to the FUTURE. In that future WIRELESS is present.

Few 'automatic' function examples of Bluetooth:

• A PC and Palm or Phone can be set up so that when they are in proximity, an auto-sync takes place. So instead of putting the Palm in the cradle and hitting the HotSync button, just walk within a few feet of the PC and the two will automatically synchronize.

• One Bluetooth-enabled phone can do three tasks. At home, the phone functions as a portable phone, using a landline. When the user is on the move, it functions as a mobile phone, and when the phone comes within range of another Bluetooth mobile phone, it functions as a walkie-talkie.

• A user can compose e-mail on a Bluetooth-enabled laptop while flying on an airplane and queue up the e-mails to be sent. In her briefcase is a Bluetooth-enabled cell phone, switched off. After she lands, she switches on the cell phone, which connects to the Internet and transmits the mail while she waits for her luggage.

• A field rep has a sales meeting noted in her PalmPilot, and the meeting time changes. Someone calls the rep's cell phone, transmits the new data and the phone routes the new information to the PalmPilot, which beeps to let her know her schedule has changed.

• Products and accounts can be assigned a scanning code. With a swipe of a mobile phone, a sales rep can transmit on-hand inventory status and order information back to the main office.

Just to name a few examples....

SonyEricsson Mobile phone portfolio with various Bluetooth phones
http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?page=GIS

OT concerning Sony's pda's, but wouldn't it be cool to connect your smarthphone in a Bluetooth car kit and use voice dailing for example?????

RE: No built-in wireless?????
Drob8785 @ 8/7/2002 1:55:03 PM #
Sony's not gonna make a clie with a built in Wirless set up. Why screams the trolls? Because it would directly compete with another Sony product. P800 (I think thats the product number). Sure its not Palm OS based (runs on Symbian)- but it has a camera, color screen, and has GSM/GPRS.

**Pain heals, chicks dig scars, Glory is FOREVER.**
RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:58:31 PM #
Wireless applications will drive the next generation of PDAs, with email the first wireless application most enterprises will look for.
http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?j44395057
RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 2:01:36 PM #
"Because it would directly compete with another Sony product. P800 (I think thats the product number)."

Comparing a pda (sony) with a smartphone (p800) i see. Two complete different products. SonyEricsson makes phones, Sony PDA's.

Sony Ericsson P800
www.blueunplugged.com/main.asp?option=productrange&prodID=120

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:10:01 PM #
"when the phone comes within range of another Bluetooth mobile phone, it functions as a walkie-talkie."

Considering the short range of Bluetooth, why not just talk to the person?

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:44:04 PM #
"Could anybody explain why we always here about Bluetooth and 802.11. My understanding is that these products provide limited range to a near by server. How does that help when I travel. Why don't we ever here about the technology in the Palm 705? What is the technology."

Try some simple google queries and all will become clear.
Wireless 101 would be off-topic here.

RE: No built-in wireless?????
Drob8785 @ 8/7/2002 3:58:09 PM #
The P800 is a SMARTPHONE...guess what those are? Phone's that are also PDA's. GASP! Guess what happens when you take away the phone! YUP...its a PDA. A wireless Clie would directly compete with the Treo 270, the P800, Kyocera's smartphone, and the i300.

**Pain heals, chicks dig scars, Glory is FOREVER.**
RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 4:06:14 PM #
"Few 'automatic' function examples of Bluetooth . . . "

The examples you listed are mostly in the future, not available today, either because the hardware doesn't exist or the software hasn't been written. Some of these ideas sound good (although I don't know about automatic hotsyncing - what, anytime I get too close to my PC my Palm starts hotsyncing and I have to wait to use it? No thanks!).

But some of us have been looking to Sony to come up with a better PDA before coming up with a better All-Purpose Electronic Device. It seems really obvious to us that they should come out with a "reduced NR70" - meaning a Hi-Res+ screen without the clamshell/keyboard. That way we get a thin device with a great screen.

At least I think it's obvious. Isn't it?

Let's hope the "no Bluetooth" part of the rumor is false.
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 4:41:57 PM #
I for one will be extremely disappointed (and somewhat surprised) if Sony's first OS5 device doesn't have integrated Bluetooth.

Unfortunatly, the fact that they still don't offer the Bluetooth "Infostick" outside of Japan is not the most hopeful indicator...

RE: No built-in wireless?????
TexSkater9140 @ 8/8/2002 2:53:18 AM #
geez, when will anyone get it right?
give me a handheld that will transform me into a tiger, beam ME to my friends, and spontaniously combust.
pda, personal digital assistants, good friends, explosive devices, yeah right
they are pda's people, not mini super-computers
your friend
-alex :D


---------------------------------------
Check out my site:
http://home.attbi.com/~ajramos/
The Untouchables live on!
And host pictures [:D]

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 5:18:08 AM #
".....wireless Clie would directly compete with the Treo 270, the P800, Kyocera's smartphone, and the i300."

So with adding WIRELESS to the Sony Clie you can make phone-calls? Oh? That's new to me.


RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 5:23:04 AM #
"Could anybody explain why we always here about Bluetooth and 802.11."

With WiFi you need Hotspots, with Bluetooth you can use your PDA with Bluetooth Phone anywhere....

Wi-Fi And Bluetooth As Complementary, Not Competing, Technologies
http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=33477

"The examples you listed are mostly in the future, not available today...."

• A PC and Palm or Phone can be set up so that when they are in proximity, an auto-sync takes place. So instead of putting the Palm in the cradle and hitting the HotSync button, just walk within a few feet of the PC and the two will automatically synchronize.

Bluetooth + Hotsync are here today and work.

Setup as easy as 1-2-3.
1. Load the software onto your computer. 2. Use the HotSync® function to transfer data. 3. Slide the Palm Bluetooth card into the Palm Expansion Card Slot. The on-screen wizard walks you through set-up.
http://www.palm.com/products/accessories/expansioncards/bluetooth/

I just gave you some possibilities what can be done with Bluetooth (today and in the future)....

ciao

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 6:06:29 AM #
"One Bluetooth-enabled phone can do three tasks. At home, the phone functions as a portable phone, using a landline. When the user is on the move, it functions as a mobile phone, and when the phone comes within range of another Bluetooth mobile phone, it functions as a walkie-talkie. "

This one made me laugh. The writer has no clue what Bluetooth can and can't do.

Bluetooth won't turn a mobile "cellular" phone to a wireless phone at home. The range is too small <10 metres... 30 feet.. you'd lose signal when at the other end of the room. And as for the walkie talkie function.. ummm yes you could... but again teh range... 10 metres.. you just raise your voice a little..

Bluetooth isn't about this kind of crap, its aboiut reoving wires from our personal devices... pda to mobile phone.. mobile phone to head set, PDA to PC.

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 6:11:12 AM #
nice but quick view on wireless

Your Guide to Wireless
www.brighthand.com/newsite/palm/views/wirelessguide.html

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 3:44:31 PM #
"With WiFi you need Hotspots, with Bluetooth you can use your PDA with Bluetooth Phone anywhere...."

Nah. You can use ad-hoc mode, device to device like you can with bluetooth. Also cellphone manufacturers like Qualcomm have annouced plans to include 802.11b in their chipsets. There's nothing stopping them in that case from PDA to cellphone 802.11b connections either (In fact it's to theirs and providers benefit to).

"Wi-Fi And Bluetooth As Complementary, Not Competing, Technologies "

So they say, but there's also some feature crossover. Both can print wirelessly as easily with PrintBoy Anywhere (though there are more NIC/network enabled printers out there than BT ones at the moment). Both can make ad-hoc like inter-device connections in a cable-replacement like fashion. I can hotsync over both. I can connect to the internet via both (though the 802.11b public infrustucture is such that BT likely won't compete in this area). There are already 802.11b enabled devices in research homes interacting in a closed network in a wider ranged version of BT's PAN like activities.

In terms of capturing market and mind share, as well as consumer dollars, they are in fact already competing.

"• A PC and Palm or Phone can be set up so that when they are in proximity, an auto-sync takes place. So instead of putting the Palm in the cradle and hitting the HotSync button, just walk within a few feet of the PC and the two will automatically synchronize."

I suppose PocketPC users will be used to that. I prefer to be able to manually hit hotsync on my device from anywhere in the building over 802.11b. Or make a PPTP connection and do it from the airport lounge.

"Bluetooth + Hotsync are here today and work."

And 802.11b isn't? I check "Network" in Hotsync manager, and 802.11b + Hotsync work. And I'm pretty sure HandEra 802.11b drivers pre-date Palm's BT hardware and drivers (at least in public release).

"Setup as easy as 1-2-3."

And for 802.11b:
1. Enable Network hotsync in hotsync manager
2. Insert 802.11b CF card
3. Run Hotsync app, select modem instead of local hotsync, and hit the hotsync button.

RE: No built-in wireless?????
useybird @ 8/8/2002 11:14:50 PM #
If you're like me and stuck with a plain phone for the next year, the only way you can get a BT phone would be to cancel your plan(I have cingular, no BT phones yet) and pay $200 termination fee, sign up with AT&T pay the $20 activation fee and the $200 phone, sign-up for service and MLife for $2.99 extra. But don't forget that new $600 Sony handheld and $99 BT CF card. For a new technology, this is sure expensive! If I were ever to get a BT phone and palm I would still use the cradle because you can't recharge through BT.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/9/2002 6:04:53 AM #
True the landline example is a little bit odd, but it can be done in principle.

"Bluetooth won't turn a mobile "cellular" phone to a wireless phone at home. The range is too small <10 metres... 30 feet.. you'd lose signal when at the other end of the room. And as for the walkie talkie function.. ummm yes you could... but again teh range... 10 metres.. you just raise your voice a little.."

Bluetooth is designed to operate up to 10 meters but more powerful transmitters can increase this distance to 100 meters.

BlueCore01 doubles Bluetooth range, reduces power
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2097016,00.html

"Nah. You can use ad-hoc mode, device to device like you can with bluetooth. Also cellphone manufacturers like Qualcomm have annouced plans to include 802.11b in their chipsets. There's nothing stopping them in that case from PDA to cellphone 802.11b connections either (In fact it's to theirs and providers benefit to)."

What nah? Roaming is coming, that's simple. But to use 802.11 (2Mbps-11Mbps) over GSM or GPRS is something different won't you think. Buetooth over GSM or GPRS, CDMA is prefered.

Of course you can use the adhoc mode, but that doesn't say that you can use your 802.11 device with your phone and be wireless connective????? What kind of BS is that.

Qualcomm has plans to integrated 802.11 in certain cdma chips: "We plan to have a device by next year that combines CDMA or W-CDMA and wireless LAN networking. Our approach is similar to the one we have taken with Bluetooth" said Siegmund Redl, director of European marketing at Qualcomm CDMA Technologies.

Qualcomm Bluetooth Chip Solutions
http://www.cdmatech.com/solutions/bluetooth.html

By the way, it doesn't hurt that Qualcomm joint OMA: QUALCOMM intends to contribute to the OMA in order to foster the availability of robust and innovative wireless data applications that take advantage of such standards as MPEG-4, HTML/XML, HTTP, HTTPS, SSL, Bluetooth and GPS. The Company recognizes there is a need for comprehensive wireless data solutions that support the wide variety of devices that will continue to come into the market.

"So they say, but there's also some feature crossover....."

Bluetooth has also a networking function, true, but that is not prefered.

"In terms of capturing market and mind share, as well as consumer dollars, they are in fact already competing."

You mean like market share of cars vs bicycles? Your problem, as with many others, is that you see 802.11 a the 'standard doing everything'. 802.11 as a cheap cable replacement isn't interesting. 802.11 for Wireless Headsets, Keyboards, USB adapters, Pens etc. isn't suitable. Don't you get that? The 802.11-Bluetooth picture isn't clear for a lot people. They don't know the differences between 802.11 and Bluetooth. They don't know where the 2 where designed for in the frist place.

Few Bluetooth Examples

-Bluetooth PlayStation2 gamepad
-Bluetooth (wireless onboard electronics) and Telematics
-Bluetooth Keyboard
-Bluetooth and GPS
-Bluetooth Printers
-Bluetooth OS application(s)/software
-Bluetooth Logboard (Tablet)
-Bluetooth PC/Flash Cards
-Bluetooth Phones
-Bluetooth Headsets
-Bluetooth PC and Notebooks
-Bluetooth Access Points
-Bluetooth USB adapters
-Bluetooth PDA's
-Bluetooth Pen
-Bluetooth Camcorders
-Bluetooth RS232 & serial
-Bluetooth ISDN Access Point/ISDN Adapter (and more)
-Bluetooth Suitcase
-Bluetooth Battery
-Bluetooth for tracking, monitoring and identification of objects (suitcases, laptops, bicycles or even children)
-Bluetooth Mouse
-Bluetooth - Medical applications
-Bluetooth interface for medical instruments
-Bluetooth On-Line

http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=PALM&read=34312

"I suppose PocketPC users will be used to that. I prefer to be able to manually hit hotsync on my device from anywhere in the building over 802.11b. Or make a PPTP connection and do it from the airport lounge."

As if that matters. I just pointed out that it's already here. The person who ask me has question marks that it could be done. I just explained. Wireless and ActiveSync is still difficult by the way (but that's another issue)

"And 802.11b isn't? I check "Network" in Hotsync manager, and 802.11b + Hotsync work. And I'm pretty sure HandEra 802.11b drivers pre-date Palm's BT hardware and drivers (at least in public release)."

Great for ya, but I didn't say that "802.11 isn't". AGAIN: I just showed him it's here today and working. For the record, I use both 802.11 (and Bluetotoh with my iPaq 3870) and Bluetooth (Palm505) and both work fine.

And for 802.11b:
1. Enable Network hotsync in hotsync manager
2. Insert 802.11b CF card
3. Run Hotsync app, select modem instead of local hotsync, and hit the hotsync button.

Thanx for showing us how to set up 802.11 and hotsync??????

Have a nice day.

RE: No built-in wireless?????
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/9/2002 7:00:37 AM #
Bluetooth And Wi-Fi (802.11a 5Ghz) Technologies To Revolutionize Automotive Landscape, According To New ABI Report
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020808/82167_1.html

RE: No built-in wireless?????
useybird @ 8/10/2002 12:26:38 AM #
"-Bluetooth Battery"

Please explain to me how and why a battery would use bluetooth. It's impossible to recharge wirelessly. And this list of bluetooth devices you speak of, most of them are already wireless and don't need bluetooth. Don't expect to see all of these devices in one store for about 20 years.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: No built-in wireless?????
useybird @ 8/10/2002 12:30:45 AM #
"Bluetooth Pen"
"Bluetooth Suitcase"

I didn't know ink could be transmitted wirelessly? That's amazing you show me a Bluetooth pen and I'll show you my own 200-story skyscraper in the desert.

And a Bluetooth suitcase? Get Real! Oh, I get it! You can use your computer and download luggage into the Bluetooth suitcase.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

RE: No built-in wireless?????
abosco @ 8/10/2002 12:44:00 AM #
The bluetooth pen works by writing on something and it shows up on the computer.

And stop trashing things you don't fully understand, useybird.

And it IS possible to recharge things wirelessly. It is futuristic and questionable and it's not necessarily by way of bluetooth, but here is a link:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3699

_______________________________________
So how's that nice girlfriend of yours?
Oh she got hit by a car, she's dead.

useybird, don't be an ###
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/10/2002 11:25:57 AM #
As abosco said "stop trashing things you don't fully understand". We (at the company) read your funny and contentless posts on Bluetooth. And we admit, it's very laughable. Thanx

Bluetooth Batery=Bluetooth + Battery; you can add it to your phone smart guy

Bluetooth Pen's were demonstrated on Tech Events around the world by Ericsson, Anoto and Microsoft this year. So you think Microsoft is being funny on that? Think again (if you can?)

And you also think that the biggerst suitcase supplier in the world called Samsonite is joking on a Suitcase with Bluetooth????

Samsonite launches business briefcase with Bluetooth

Samsonite says its Hardlite with Bluetooth has the following advantages for the traveler:

Tracking: the Bluetooth chip in the Hardlite case can be used as a carrier of vital information, which is necessary for travel, flight information, and gate connections, for example.

Anti-theft: the built-in technology will notify the owner if the case is being removed.

Security: the chip can contain personal data that will identify the owner of the product.

http://www.m-travel.com/20314.shtml

Bluetooth for tracking, monitoring and identification of objects (suitcases, laptops, bicycles or even children)
http://www.bluetags.com/html/product_concepts/generic_tag.html

Bluetooth can be very usefull. Full stop.

Sony's Handheld of the Month

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:13:47 AM #
Wow! Sony sure does push the new handheld designs out quick. I wonder what there R&D budget and teams look like. They must have two ton of money and people dedicated to new Palm device designs. But I don't understand how they can tell if a device is really successful since they always have a new one right behind it.
RE: Sony's Handheld of the Month
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:50:55 AM #
Hasn't been a StrongArm PDA out for a while? i don't think that's a cutting edge design challange. It's been done before. In fact it's almost 2 yrs too late.
RE: Sony's Handheld of the Month
jgb9348 @ 8/7/2002 12:05:08 PM #
Thanks for making this comment...I had a thread going in 'SONY's new device' a week or so ago, and people got real pissed about me talking about how much money Sony spends on making new devices. In my mind, Sony cannot be making too much money on any single device....unlike palm who dominates on a few devices, m515, i705 and m100 series. Sony however spends too much money on production/development of each of their pda's, and doesn't develop a product to suit multiple types of users. It's too bad...otherwise I'd probably own one by now. I would love to buy the NR70V, or any other Sony device, but since I will buy the Kyocera 7135 and currently have the m505, I want to stay strong with the SD card standard. I don't want to have multiple mediums and sony proprietary media.

RE: Sony's Handheld of the Month
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 2:50:06 PM #
Sony likes to just throw devices at the market and ee what ideas take. They've been doing it for years with consumer electronics. They've got deep pockets and can afford to do this "live market research". We, as consumers, get to vote with our $$. Don't buy it if you don't like it. That'll send a clear message to Sony.

Their money comes from suing innocent people (re DRM)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:01:08 PM #
Sony is one of the largest financial backers of the RIAA, who are taking rights away from legitimate music purchasers, owners, authors, copyright holders, and others. Trust me, they're getting billions of dollars from us anyway, I'm sure they're getting kickbacks and tax cuts for doing so.
Their money comes from PS2
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 4:36:32 PM #
Without getting too off-topic (RIAA, Ferrari, etc.) the truth is that Sony's Playstation division is making the majority of profits for the corporation.

To bring things back on-topic, I'd LOVE to see a Clie that ties in to their gaming consoles in the same manner that Nintendo is starting to tie in the GameCube and GameBoy Advance.

RE: Sony's Handheld of the Month
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 5:33:28 PM #
Quote:
"Sony likes to just throw devices at the market and ee what ideas take. They've been doing it for years with consumer electronics. They've got deep pockets and can afford to do this "live market research".

For idiots who bash Palm for lacking inivqtion THATS why Sony can AFFORD to be "cutting edge" and Palm cannot, and MUST change slowly. So Palm targets low end and high ends slim and cool looking and "pocketability." There IS a large market that will NEVER use multimedia ect. Palm tagets these. Palm adds such features slowly because they cannot take on PPC directly and keep up. THAT is Sonys role in Palm OS.

Sony and Palm are a "team." PPC is the opponant.

Clamshell size

Boze @ 8/7/2002 11:38:00 AM #
I like the *concept* behind Sony's clamshell design. That is, I would really like to have a PDA with the screen on one side and a keypad on the other. But the NR70(V) implementation is just too big! Am I the only one who would prefer to stick with the 320x320 hi-res, give up the camera, and get a smaller overall package? Maybe something more the size/shape of a bi-fold wallet?

Also--I think the CF-non-memory-only slot sucks. You can't have it both ways, Sony. If you're going to stick with a proprietary flash memory, develop your own damn peripherals. Otherwise, things just get too complicated for us consumers. I know it would be difficult to squeeze something like WiFi into a MemStick, but you could just build it in.

Just my opinions.

====
Boze
====

RE: Clamshell size
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 2:33:33 PM #
I agree that the NR700 form factor is too big. The BEST form factor in my opinion is the V/m505 form factor. Maybe someday they will create a better form factor, but I don't think it exists yet today. The V/505 is the perfect balance between screen size/handability/weight/pocketability/function/battery life/power.
RE: Clamshell size
useybird @ 8/8/2002 11:25:09 PM #
I agree with Boze. Sony should make a handheld that's just the top part of the NR70V. People who want a sony camera should just buy the cybershot. It should have Virtual graffiti with usable hardware buttons. No keyboard is necessary because I always preferred portable foldable keyboards to unusable built in keyboards like the terribly unusable keyboard on the Treo and NR70V.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

surprised by comments

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:06:15 PM #
I'm quite surprised by the number of anti-sony comments in this thread. as a long, long time palm and PPC user, I love the NR70V. It's awesome. It makes my 3870 and 505 look like total ****. Further, the number of posts that are complaining that they don't want a camera, mp3 players, whatever is interesting. If this device doesn't fit your needs, don't buy it. Also, don't bitch about how it's not your perfect device. Different strokes and all. For all the complaints about Sony, I feel Sony is leading the pack of other Palm OEMs by leaps and bounds. If you haven't tried the NR70V for a few weeks, shut the feck up.
RE: surprised by comments
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:12:22 PM #
yeah.

if it weren't for sony i'd still be using some low res device that palm device with usb problems.

go sony!

RE: surprised by comments
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:24:05 PM #
I believe that everyone is still entitled to their own opinion... even if it doesn't agree with your.
RE: surprised by comments
zigzago @ 8/7/2002 12:46:21 PM #
I think one reason people b**** about Sony's products is that at least there's a possiblilty that Sony could listen to the griping and come out with an improved product in a reasonable timeframe. That's one advantage of their bewildering array of new models.

RE: surprised by comments
jjsoh @ 8/7/2002 2:59:36 PM #
: I'm quite surprised by the number of anti-sony comments
: in this thread.

You're new here, aren't you? :)


Jim

RE: surprised by comments
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 3:50:50 PM #
Sony users gripe about the hardware because the products are designed to never quite fit. Leading you to buy the next version (and the next...)

When they're not griping, they're making tedious wild claims of Sony dominance, messianic chants of Sony "saving the platform", and any manner of spectacular claims rarely based in reality. That Sony is God's gift to PalmOS, and the rest of the tedious players/licensees should just get out of the way and let Sony pave the way to PDA glory.

Heck I'll give an approving nod in Sony's direction where it's due (and have even a few times in these replies too). But ANY licensees product gets the same affirming nod when they do something right, not just my own particular brand choice. And they all have to take their licks where they're due as well.

So that leads us to the other half of "anti-Sony" comments. Not about the hardware, but it's users, made by NON-Clie users. In general my reading is that PIC readers are becoming fatigued (I know I am) with the typical Clie poster. Alas they don't seem to be taking the hint, and the backlash continues to grow in volume.


RE: surprised by comments
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 4:49:17 PM #
Heh heh. Perhaps a more diplomatic way to state that would be along the lines of: "a handful of Sony users who frequently post to PIC show a certain youthful zealousness" (um, if that's actually a word)? ;-)

[It would be GREAT if Ed and Ryan would finally get rid of anonymous posting -- the quality of discussion would surely improve (remember when they did this at PDABuzz some time back?).]

Anyway, I know quite a number of mature Clie owners who are quite taken with their devices, so perhaps it's not fair to tar all Clie-philes with the same brush. :-)

RE: surprised by comments
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:19:08 PM #
Zealousness or zealotry are both correct forms.

And I agree about the PIC's abundance of "youthful" forum posters. Seems to detract from the site's overall usefulness and credibility, but is still good entertainment. Isn't this the site that has the "Pepper" character playing chaperone?

RE: surprised by comments
useybird @ 8/8/2002 11:31:08 PM #
"I feel Sony is leading the pack of other Palm OEMs by leaps and bounds"

Despite Palm's financial troubles, I believe Palm has a greater Market share than Sony.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

this will vault sony to the top of the pda hill

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:52:29 PM #
i really think this will propell sony to the best selling pda (both palm and pocket pc)

nuff said

RE: this will vault sony to the top of the pda hill
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 1:50:33 PM #
You are joking right?
RE: this will vault sony to the top of the pda hill
abosco @ 8/7/2002 2:32:09 PM #
LOL! I hope he is joking. Sony can't compete with Palm's marketshare. Sure they are gaining ground and their devices are better and the bang for your buck is much better, but Palm's release cycles give their pdas a chance to sell on the grand scale. Just look at the m505. It isn't the best handheld but Palm stuck with it and made it successful. Then they replaced it in a year with the m515 and now even more people are happy. If Palm had Sony execs, they would've replaced the m505 withing 2 months like what they did with the N610c, N710c, and N760c. The NR series was supposed to propell Sony to the top, and it boosted their sales but they still aren't near the top. This device will be no different. And with Palm's Oslo coming out, that may put Palm back on the right track and give them more capital to work with. Palm won't lose their #1 position for a long time, you can count on that.

----------
Well FINE! Be that way!
Excuse me while I go pout and cry in the corner...

Bummer for NR70v Users

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 12:59:35 PM #
Kinda a bummer for NR70v users... your guys handheld is already outdated; you may have been riding a high horse for a month or two, but look who will be laughing now. :p And if you buy this handheld too, then will Sony has gotten the best of you. Hehe.
RE: Bummer for NR70v Users
abosco @ 8/7/2002 1:14:23 PM #
Not if you bought the NR70v with the Best Buy warrantee. Then you can just trade it in and pay the difference which will be probably $0-$100. Then WE got the best of Sony. But I didn't buy the NR so it doesn't matter for me.

Anyway, when I compare this with the Oslo, they look like two totally different machines. It all depends on what target audience each device is aiming at and there are more people who want a small, sleek device that fits nice in the hand and can contract and get lost in your pocket than those who want a bigger, NR concept design with more multimedia and battery drain options than ever before (cough DIGITAL CAMCORDER cough). I expect the Oslo to outsell this by a notable margin. Go ahead and look at the past, even the present. The NR70v didn't outsell the m515. The N610c, N710c, and N760c never outsold the m505, or even came close to killing it. The same will happen for the Oslo. Sony's pricing is getting ridiculous now. We all thought $600 was too much for a handheld, even with the NR70v feature set, but this thing might even go up to about $700 with all the extra things. Maybe even $800...

----------
The Ten Commandments as beamed onto Moses' Pilot 1000:

1) Thou shall not worship any other OS besides God's OS (aka Palm OS).
2-10) Thou shall not use Pocket PC.

RE: Bummer for NR70v Users
IanJD @ 8/7/2002 2:37:38 PM #
Oh no! At some unspecified date in the future my NR70V will only be the second most powerful Palm? I think I can hear the timebomb ticking even now...

RE: Bummer for NR70v Users
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 5:57:12 PM #
"Not if you bought the NR70v with the Best Buy warrantee. Then you can just trade it in and pay the difference which will be probably $0-$100. Then WE got the best of Sony. But I didn't buy the NR so it doesn't matter for me."


abosco - PLEASE don't post your abuse of the Best Buy Protection Plan. The last thing I want is for someone in their HQ to read this and terminate the program which hurts legitimate protection of a defective unit. Do what you will, but please don't ruin it for all of us by posting your criminal intentions.

THANKS

RE: Bummer for NR70v Users
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:00:07 PM #
[dry sarcasm]Oh no, my NR70V will be obsolete. I am sooo upset about this. It will no longer work when this new PDA is released, because that is what obsolete means. It means that the old device will cease to function completely, and I will have to upgrade to the newer device. Darn Sony to the deepest depths of Hades for this vile plot.

I can no longer gloat about my superior purchase to my friends, who all actually live and breath around my PDA purchases. Everyone knows how much of a status symbol a PDA is to the real world. People bowed when I walked by because of my NR70V. They will now laugh at my non-working obsolete PDA. I am sad.

Oh no. Boo hoo. This is the end of the world. [/dry sarcasm]

Seriously, am I upset about this? Heck no, I'm rather intrigued and excited. When Sony released the NR70 series, I about fell out of my chair in giddiness, even though I had literally just purchased a T-615C.

Do I HAVE to keep my current PDA in its obsolesence(sp?) when this new one is release? Nope, I can just as easily eBay it and regain SOME of my cost (or sell it to one of my other semi-gadget-freaky friends). Will I do that? Well, probably not. I'll probably just keep it as a backup PDA in case something happens to my new one, but that's just me.

My point? Does it matter? I'll just get flamed anyway.

RE: Bummer for NR70v Users
useybird @ 8/8/2002 11:35:28 PM #
I used to work at Best buy and Their warranty only covers damage caused by wear and tear. Now, If you throw it on the ground and bring it there they will laugh at you. They don't cover that. I learned that the hard way. i tried returning a game boy under warranty and would let me. I'd like to see how far you get with returning that NR70v. Looks like you're stuck with it. You just have to hope it breaks under warranty condititons.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

OLD News

Timothy Rapson @ 8/7/2002 2:15:48 PM #
This was all reported here last month by a guy who said he was a developer.

The 2 megapixel camera, video, clamshell design, StrongArm.

The big news from him was that it would run neither Palm, nor PPC OS.

RE: OLD News
abosco @ 8/7/2002 2:30:08 PM #
Well there are only a couple other OS's. Windows CE, Linux, and Newton. Maybe Sony is making their own type of OS? This is a BAAAAAD move if they do. People have come to rely on the Palm OS and unless the Sony has a Palm emulator, this thing will be a disaster!

----------
Well FINE! Be that way!
Excuse me while I go pout and cry in the corner...
RE: OLD News
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 2:55:13 PM #
Symbian?
RE: OLD News
abosco @ 8/7/2002 2:59:47 PM #
Symbian is possible but that OS is more for enterprise models. And since Sonys don't even have wireless yet, I doubt it. Maybe EPOCH?

----------
Well FINE! Be that way!
Excuse me while I go pout and cry in the corner...
RE: OLD News
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 7:54:09 PM #
Dude, you're babbling now.

Newton?
LOL.

EPOCH (sic)?
ROFL.

{And hey : time for a new sig. It's less offensive than your last one, but still.}

RE: OLD News
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 8:44:47 PM #
Timothy, it's possible that the developer might have been mistaking the Sony-Ericsson P800 (which runs Symbian) for a new member of the Clie family?

RE: OLD News
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 3:07:27 AM #
Otaku - the P800 has a VGA camera not a 2 Megapixel camera so the 'developer' is refering to another unit. The P800 does not contain a CF slot. I think Sony is doing a SymbianOS device since they have a license. I don't think PalmSource restricts their licensees from selling PDAs with other OSes...
RE: OLD News
Palm_Otaku @ 8/8/2002 4:20:23 PM #
Yeah, good point. I realize that the "developer-leak" specs don't meet the actual P800 specs, but we've seen semi-confused leaks before and I'm somewhat skeptical about that one.

You might be right about Sony doing a SymbianOS PDA, but I don't know if there is much overlap between their Clie division and the Sony-Ericsson division. The SE group seems to be a bit of a seperate fiefdom and Symbian seems to be tightly focussed on smartphone implementation rather than PDAs.

This RUMOR sounds fishy

Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 2:32:53 PM #
No offense to Julie or her "reliable source", but I can't believe that any new Clie will use the Intel StrongARM -- primarily because that processor isn't one of the "PalmOS Ready" chips. (perhaps it *is* possible that Sony will introduce a PDA using a different OS...?)

The dual-expansion CF/MS sounds pretty questionable too.

So before people get *TOO* bent out of shape, perhaps we should all take this rumor with a grain of salt. Heh, or maybe a whole shaker of salt for that matter...

RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
jjsoh @ 8/7/2002 3:02:20 PM #
Heh. I'm inclined to agree, but since rumors such as this normally generate a good buzz and a crapload of comments (with flames and trolls, of course), it's still a fun read.

Come and enjoy the ride! ;)


Jim

RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
bobes @ 8/7/2002 3:46:38 PM #
I don't understand why Sony won't go for the Motorola chip (MX1??) that has built in MS support. Why go with StrongARM?

RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 4:05:19 PM #
I thought the Intel X-scale (or whatever they are called) processors were part of the PalmOS Ready program?
RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 4:13:52 PM #
I thought the Intel X-scale (or whatever they are called) processors were part of the PalmOS Ready program?

AFAIK, Intel's XScale are part of the PalmOS Ready program, but their older StrongARM processor is not.

RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 6:03:21 PM #
I haven't heard of any new CPUs that has passed certification. So far it's only the Dragonball MX1. This leads me to believe that it will be the first one to appear on devices... but who am I, I don't know how this OS5 program thing works.

Anybody want to shed some light here?

RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 6:04:04 PM #
Perhaps that's just what was in the development unit?
RE: This RUMOR sounds fishy
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 7:48:40 PM #
I haven't heard of any other processors that have passed certification either, but the OMAP and XScale processors might be in the midst of the certification process right now. (On the other hand, maybe that's holding up release of new OS5 hardware? )

Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 5:44:48 PM #
You bashers (both ways) are so stupid.
Palm puts out a device, "No inovation"
Sony puts out a device, "Dont need no stinkin camera"

Palm needs to keep its OS the standard to survive Deep Pockets MS attack. Palm itself cannot put out devices to compete feature wise with PPC. They Market zen "pocketability," and battery life. There is a core that this appeals to.

The threat from MS is that as PPC becomes more user friendly it appeals to more than just geeks. If its share surpasses Palm it could become standard, like on the desktop. Even those who want "simple" will need to go with the "standard." That is why most people use bloated Windows on the desktop and complain. That is why we use MS "Office" even though we know we are being ripped off because it is so expensive.

In comes Sony. It is the deep pocket ally Palm needs to fend off PPC. It has the Hi rez and music NOW that has already kept THOUSANDS in the Palm OS camp. As we move on to arm I WILL be the "Geek toy" that will not only keep Palm users with Palm OS, PPC users will return to Palm OS. With its RD dollars and its already proven will to throw it away releasing a device every couple of months, it is going after PPC with a vengence.

All the while Palm can survive on name recognition, low end and choosing "wireless" as the high end buisness market as the narrowly focussed high end market to enter.

MS has deeper pockets true, but does HP?, or Toshiba? THEY make the devices, and cant keep up with Sony. Bravo Sony. Huurray Palm for bringing on Sony.

All bashers are idiot who dont have a clue.

And at the entry level?
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 7:34:02 PM #
We'll also have to wait and see what the Palm's other rumored device ("Cub"?) is like. (Believe it or not, most of the action in the PDA marketplace is the LOW end, so Palm Inc's m105 replacements will be where a big part of PDA sales are. Profit margins there I'm not sure of though...) Shoudl be interesting to se how successfully "Cub" competes against the new SL10 Clie and the Handspring Neo, plus whatever else is coming down the pipe.
RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 7:37:16 PM #
"Palm needs to keep its OS the standard to survive Deep Pockets MS attack. Palm itself cannot put out devices to compete feature wise with PPC. They Market zen "pocketability," and battery life. There is a core that this appeals to. "

Two fingers pointing back at you with the name calling. Palm doesn't own an OS anymore, PalmSource does. Palm only makes hardware as a licensee to that OS, just as Sony does. Comparisons between Sony and Palm in this group of threads are in that context. They ARE competitors. In the same way say Shell and Texaco are, though they have the shared interest in a thriving economy based around petroleum products (aka PalmOS).

RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 8:51:06 PM #
Exactly. A LOT of people still don't seem to get the separation of Palm into two distinct companies.

Operating System:
PalmSource vs. Microsoft

Handheld Computers:
Palm Inc. / Sony / Handspring etc. vs. HP / Toshiba / Casio etc.

Let's get with the program, y'all. :)

RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:00:58 PM #
Hey Genius - on the Hardware Side it's Dog eat Dog:

Handheld Computers:
Palm (Hardware) vs. Sony vs. Handspring vs. HP vs. Toshiba vs. Casio

If Palm (Hardware) can't win enough sales away from the Palm licencees they are toast. PalmSource is a different story.

Bottom line, Palm (Hardware) could fail with PalmSource living on.


RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:27:14 PM #
Palm Source is wholly owned by Palm Inc. so until it changed for all practical purposes Palm Inc own Palm OS.
RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 9:35:16 PM #
Original guy who said:
"Palm needs to keep its OS the standard to survive Deep Pockets MS attack. Palm itself cannot put out devices to compete feature wise with PPC. They Market zen "pocketability," and battery life. There is a core that this appeals to. "

One reply was:
"Two fingers pointing back at you with the name calling. Palm doesn't own an OS anymore, PalmSource does. Palm only makes hardware as a licensee to that OS, just as Sony does. Comparisons between Sony and Palm in this group of threads are in that context. They ARE competitors."

Me in response:
OK name-calling my bad. Should not have done it.
I know that Sony and Palm are competitors. I know that soon Palmsource will completely spin off. However it is in Palm (hardwares) best interest to have Sony using Palm OS and NEEDS Sony. Again if CE (PPC) becomes the standard OS Palm will die. We will all move to PPC for compatability reasons alone. The desktop showed that. Sony keeps Palm OS competitive feature wise with anything PPC come up with. There will be little reason for anyone to get a PPC who already has Palm.

Example I have a Sony. When I upgrade I may or may not get a Palm. All I care about is Palm OS as I have invested time and money into it. Before Sony I might have considered a PPC. Now I doubt I ever will. I recomend Palm OS for selfish reasons. I want file compatability with others.

Does Palm lose sales to Sony? Sure. But its survival is at stake in its battle with PPC.

Becoming the standard is MS key to success it always has been. Palm (hardware and software) needs to stave that off. Neither will survive if that happens. Sony is an important part of that strategy

Hardware marketshare
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 9:43:41 PM #
Palm (Hardware) vs. Sony vs. Handspring vs. HP vs. Toshiba vs. Casio

Yep, that's a better summary of the hardware marketplace. Thanks.

If Palm (Hardware) can't win enough sales away from the Palm licencees they are toast.

Palm Inc. is still the dominant PDA manufacturer at last report and if they could maintain current market share they'd probably be pretty happy. Heh, but aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? It's not just the other PalmOS licencees that Palm Inc. needs to "win enough sales away from", it's ALL the PDA manufacturers (in what is becoming a rather crowded market).

PalmSource and Palm Inc. are distinct companies
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 10:04:05 PM #
Palm Source is wholly owned by Palm Inc. so until it changed for all practical purposes Palm Inc own Palm OS.

I respectfully disagree - the two companies ARE functionally separated. (In fact PalmSource Inc. are moving into their new headquarters next week.)

For all practical purposes PalmSource owns PalmOS and licences it to various hardware manufacturers (one of whom is Palm Inc.).

RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 10:29:23 PM #
You are right that Palm and PalmSource are two different companies, and there are plans to spin
off Palmsource, but I think your forgetting something...Palm owns PalmSource. Palm provided
around 57% of PalmSource's licensing revenue and all the other licensees made up the rest...
so divide the 43% up between Handspring, Sony, Samsung...

Now to the person said that Palm could die and PalmSource live on...that's not really true.
PalmSource is not a profitable company...they lost money the last two quarters they've reported
revenues separate from the Palm Hardware side...so if you take that with the fact that Palm makes
up almost 60% of its revenue...you realize that the OS needs Palm Hardware to make any money
and continue existing...but there is always the situation where someone can buy Palm Hardware to
own the OS company...now that would be interesting.

RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 10:45:44 PM #
Palm_Otaku - I'm not flaming, really. But I just don't get folks who say that Palm and PalmSource are "separate." They aren't - it's just smoke and mirrors. Palm owns PalmSource, and so owns the OS. I mean honestly, my dog lives in the doghouse, but I'm the one who takes him for walks.

The point is that if Palm wants to exploit Palmsource/PalmOS at the expense of other licensees, they can. That practice would make no more or less business sense now than when the two business units were in the same building.

And speaking of smoke and mirrors, look who is still heading up Palm - Eric Benhamou, chairman of 3Com, the supposed "former" owner of Palm.

So who owns it all? 3Com, just like always.

RE: Morons, Palm and Sony are working TOGETHER
useybird @ 8/8/2002 11:49:15 PM #
Palm still owns the OS otherwise it would be called PalmSourceOS1.0

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

Palm Inc. and PalmSource Inc.
Palm_Otaku @ 8/10/2002 3:47:33 AM #
IMA, I never took your comments to be flaming, but I'm certain that you are mistaken on this topic.

PalmSource Inc. is the owner of the PalmOS. A primary reason for the change from being a subsidiary of Palm Inc. to becoming a distinct, independant company was so that ALL of the licensees would have equal footing. (i.e. Sony, HandSpring, etc. voiced concerns that in sharing their future plans with PalmSource, their competitor, Palm, might get tipped off.)

Functionally, PalmSource and Palm have been separate since early in 2002, and as the legal/business affairs get finalized over the next little while this will become very obvious.

StrongArm is obsolete chip!!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 10:00:49 PM #
StrongArm is obsolete chip. Intel moves on XScale for the new gadgets. As we know Sony is working on Motorola chips and if Sony would be using Intel chip it must be XScale, not StrongArm. Silly source.
RE: StrongArm is obsolete chip!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/7/2002 11:33:44 PM #
Why would you say StrongArm is obsolete? Does that mean any project using a 8051 or HC11/12 is obsolete? What if the project requirements only call for an 8051 and not the processor with the biggest balls? Hell, in a previous job, I worked on a project using a PowerPC chip where it was pure overkill...no way did it need that much processing power. Just because it's not the fastest/newest processor doesn't make it obsolete.

There are plenty of reasons Sony might have chosen the StrongArm...potential risk in XScale's production quantities, perhaps? Maybe Intel's schedule didn't fit Sony's plans or maybe the price of the chips was prohibitive to Sony's margin...there are tons of reasons why Sony might have
have chosen StrongArm, but since this is only rumor...we'll just wait and see what they ship with.

RE: StrongARM
Palm_Otaku @ 8/7/2002 11:52:37 PM #
Obsolete may be too strong a term, but there's a couple of good reasons why it is highly unlikely to show up in any forthcoming OS5 devices. First, its not part of the "PalmOS Ready" program AFAIK, so Intel won't have the HAL developed for it to run PalmOS. Second, its a comparatively power-inefficient processor (which is probably why it was never submitted to the PalmOS Ready program)

RE: StrongArm is obsolete chip!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 12:08:19 AM #
Intel dumps ArmStrong chip in PPC. Intel replaces this chip with the XScale. One reason is, it is Battery Monster. It's drains battery. New PPC are will be running in XScale. No one buys PPC with ArmStrong chips anymore, except of course at bargain price. See Toshiba PPC models news in the other site. XScale is only Intel Palm OS HAL chip. Sony is working on MX1 and MX2 (in future) from Motolora. MX series are Palm OS HAL chips. These are the reason why this news is fishy.
Sony using MX1?
Palm_Otaku @ 8/8/2002 4:30:15 PM #
Have there been anything publicly-posted that confirms that Sony is/will be using the Motorola MX1 for their OS5 device? And is there ANY info about the MX2? Please provide links - I'm very curious :)

Regarding PPC and XScale - yes, the processor has the *potential* to provide much better battery life. Too bad PPC2002 is optimized for StrongARM and MicroSoft won't be updating the PPC OS to actually take advantage of XScale until 2004... (What a debacle!)

expert advise

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 12:17:31 AM #
from a cost benefit perspective, you might as well buy a M515, then supercharge it with quickbits

typical

PIC mobile user @ 8/8/2002 2:58:49 AM #
typical sony. the inclusion of i/o cf slot shows how ms has failed in i/o. this rumour is likely to be false since the strongarm is not n the palmos ready program. of intel's ARM chips only the XScale is...
RE: typical
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 3:03:59 AM #
hm...true to say..I think this unit will (if the rumours are true) run on another OS (PPC???) and not PalmOS. Maybe it will even run on Symbian. For all we know it could just be another Sony Ericsson smartphone!
RE: typical
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/8/2002 3:22:23 AM #
well maybe it proves that SD/MMc has failed even worse than Memory stick, sice they rather choose a bigger form of Flash media than one that is used by other palm Device.

or maybe it just proved that CF has more perpherials that Memory stick can't offer yet, e.g. ethernet adapter, IEEE 802.11, the list goes on and on.

Anyway I think this rumor is false, but adding CF slot is a good move on sony's part, CF is industrial standard with a much longer history then both MS and SD.

Big?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/9/2002 12:56:26 AM #
Sounds excessively bulky to me...look how big the NR70s are and then try to add a CF slot and more power...not too mention a bigger battery is probably a requirement...
Alex.

video clie

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/9/2002 7:19:54 AM #
I spoke to my Japanese friend who is a Palm stock holder and he told me he knew that Sony would be coming out with built in video almost 2 weeks ago this story was posted here! I think I should talk more about Palms with him...could get us some juicy new stories!

Memory Stick functionality on new clie

BUDD @ 9/25/2002 5:35:38 PM #
Yah but jeeze...will the memory stick slot actually WORK on this one? (could not resist). This is sort of a good thing even though I don't see myself going Sony personally; I had started to get concerned that Sony's tendency to issue then dump new models in rapid succession would be responsible for turning Palm OS devices into the PDA trash of the galaxy by cheapening the very good platform that they are.

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